Religion and Domestic Violence

CCNL:
said "Theology professors" also rank with those who allowed crosses to be removed from CATHOLIC institutions on the grounds that they are 'offensive' to Muslims, and agree with "pro-choice" stances, and those who believe children can be murdered up to age 2, effectively nulling their "good standing" within the Catholic Church. Jesus and Mary were assumed into heaven.
Au revoir
Ben

bmorris244,

The theology professors who teach the following in their graduate theology classes are Catholics in good standing with the RCC:

"The Assumption ties Jesus' mission to Pentecost and missionary activity of Jesus' followers.

The Assumption has multiple layers of symbolism, some are related to Mary's special role as "Christ bearer" (theotokos). It does not seem fitting that Mary, the body of Jesus' Virgin-Mother (another biblically based symbol found in Luke 1) would be derived by worms upon her death. Mary's assumption also shows God's positive regard, not only for Christ's male body, but also for female bodies."

I recommend taking some graduate theology classes at any major Catholic university so that you might escape your being Bred, Born and Brainwashed in the Catholicism/Christianity of the Middle Ages.

CCNL, you continue to labor under the delusion that you will be able to convince me that Jesus Christ did not rise from the dead to save me from my sins. And please, one more time, with the open-source "experts," who obviously don't belong to any Christian faith, since one of the basic prerequisites is believing Jesus is God made man, and that He rose from the dead.

However, on a more pertinent note, you yourself say that
"Mary's assumption also shows God's positive regard, not only for Christ's male body, but also for female bodies."
Therefore, you admit that Christian and Catholic teachings do not condone domestic violence of any kind, since both are equal.

"CNN 24/7 world news coverage and the archives of said news group are also good sources of information about the horrors of being both female and Islamic."
The archives of said news group took a photograph of a row of the corpses of civilians on a street, known to have been committed by terrorists, and they promptly changed the caption, and blamed it on the US Marines. Don't even start with me.

Part of the abuse cycle that some men and people use is the church.A person's faith.When times are difficult,when a person has reached out for help or asked for help when a spouse or a job or it seems like the "whole world is against you",that vulnerability becomes a way to be abused.Having belonged to the family church during a domestic violence divorce,the church and certain parishioners used me not attending as a way to create legal issues."The family is catholic"is what the opposing counsel wrote in court papers and inspite of the(sexual)abuse being inflicted upon the children and me and the exposure the catholic church was recieving about the priest pediaphiles,the attorney was relentless.No separation between church and state.When the second husband decided to join the catholic church during our divorce,the same catholic church which I was attended to get things back on track for my children and me,his input and attendence at that church allowed the comments that it was the reputation of the priest that was on the line and I should find another church to attend.The man wasn't even catholic and was being allowed to use the church as a way to abuse.For all the research that the Detroit archidiocese claims to have put into the subject of domestic violence and abuse,the selective process of allowing men,woman,and children to continue the abuse in the church pews is ongoing.

Any 'religion' that is of higher origin than man will only condemn such behavior and provide instructions for uniform treatment of respect for all humanity. In doing this, it will set forth man as a responsible being, capable of such respectful treatment. It will set forth justice and mercy for all equally.

Silentvoices,

Ayaan Hirsi Ali addresses the issues of sex symbols and female slavery in her autobiography. Please read the book!!!

CNN 24/7 world news coverage and the archives of said news group are also good sources of information about the horrors of being both female and Islamic.

Regarding Prophet Jesus I have a question too ..

Do you see the Cross as one and the same as a Crucifix or do you make a distinction? If you do not or do not know then most likely you are in the grip of a Roman mystery religion in other words the Christianity as you know it:)

So can anyone tell me the difference and the history behind them?

Regards

Mr/Miss CCNL

"From Ayaan Hirsi Ali's autobiography, Infidel"

Miss Ayaan is liar i think you should post some credible reference rather pasting Miss Liar Ayaan.. again and again,she can be credible in your.. and what is the condition of women in civilized world where you live is nothing just a sex symbol or a public property...

Regards

Ben, Ben, Ben,

Read the commentary again. It says that most contemporary, New Testament and historic Jesus exegetes believe Jesus, the simple preacher man existed and was crucified. Most of these same experts, however, do not believe he arose from the dead since there are, unlike the crucifixion accounts, insufficient attestations to this.

e.g. http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/017_Resurrection_of_Jesus

And note that this same "no physical resurrection" conclusion is also being taught in many large Catholic university graduate theology classes.

e.g. class notes from one large Catholic university:

"Heaven is a Spirit state (no physical bodies abide so where is the resurrected, ascended body????)

Christ's and Mary's bodies are therefore not in Heaven. For one thing, Paul in 1 Cor 15 speaks of the body of the dead as transformed into a "spiritual body." No one knows exactly what he meant by this term.

Most believe that it to mean that the personal spiritual self that survives death is in continuity with the self we were while living on earth as an embodied person.

The physical Resurrection (meaning a resuscitated corpse returning to life), Ascension (of Jesus' crucified corpse), and Assumption (Mary's
corpse) into heaven did not take place.

The Ascension symbolizes the end of Jesus' earthly ministry and the beginning of the Church.

Only Luke's Gospel records it. The Assumption ties Jesus' mission to Pentecost and missionary activity of Jesus' followers The Assumption has
multiple layers of symbolism, some are related to Mary's special role as "Christ bearer" (theotokos). It does not seem fitting that Mary, the body of Jesus' Virgin-Mother (another biblically based symbol found in Luke 1) would
be derived by worms upon her death. Mary's assumption also shows God's positive regard, not only for Christ's male body, but also for female
bodies."

Some added tidbits:

According to Reimarus as referenced in R.B. Stewart in his introduction to the recent book, The Resurrection of Jesus, Crossan and Wright in Dialogue,

"Reimarus (1774-1779) posits that Jesus became sidetracked by embracing a political position, sought to force God's hand and that he died alone deserted by his disciples. What began as a call for repentance ended up as a misguided attempt to usher in the earthly political kingdom of God. After Jesus' failure and death, his disciples stole his body and declared his resurrection in order to maintain their financial security and ensure themselves some standing."

From: K.C. Hanson and D. E. Oakman, Palestine in the Time of Jesus, Fortress Press, 1998. p.55

"Stories circulated to the effect that Alexander of Macedonia was not only the son of Philip II, but also of the god Zeus-Ammon (Plutarch, Parallel Lives, "Alexander" 2.1-3.2); Plato was the son of Ariston and the god Apollo (Diogenes Laertius, Lives of Eminent Philosophers 3.1-2), and Augustus was the son of Octavius as well as the god Apollo (Suetonius, Lives o f the Caesars 2.4.1-7). The extraordinary character of these elites reputedly stemmed from both their divine origins and their kingroups. Their kin-groups provided one form of legitimation-political right to the throne and/or social status (thus the importance of Joseph in Matthew's genealogy). Their divine procreation provided another: their honor was divinely ascribed, and their greatness as leaders derived from divine paternity."

CCNL:
You just don't get it. I believe that Jesus existed. I believe He was crucified under Pontius Pilate, suffered, died, and was buried. I believe He rose again on the third day, in fulfillment of the Scriptures. I'd continue with the creed, but it's not necessary; you get the point.
Jewish standpoints on whether Abraham existed or not don't really concern me, and certainly don't affect the Catholic standpoint on it or the prompt given above. Relevance?

I notice you declined to take my advice and do a little more than Google and Wikipedia the info...

NieeMA, I can't say thanks enough. I wish you had been my mentor for the past so many years. You offer sage advice and wisdom much needed among youth such as myself. I think I'll take your advice.

CCNL: what NieeMA said.
Why is it so hard for everyone just to try to get along, accept each other's differences, and move on? Is it so hard to treat each other politely?

God Bless
Ben

More for Ben's benefit:

From http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

also: New York Times

ARTS & IDEAS/CULTURAL DESK | March 9, 2002
New Torah For Modern Minds
By MICHAEL MASSING (NYT) 1775 words
origin:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20E1EFE35540C7A8CDDAA0894DA404482

"New Torah For Modern Minds

Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses. The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho. And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling nation.

Such startling propositions -- the product of findings by archaeologists digging in Israel and its environs over the last 25 years -- have gained wide acceptance among non-Orthodox rabbis. But there has been no attempt to disseminate these ideas or to discuss them with the laity -- until now.

The United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, which represents the 1.5 million Conservative Jews in the United States, has just issued a new Torah and commentary, the first for Conservatives in more than 60 years. Called ''Etz Hayim'' (''Tree of Life'' in Hebrew), it offers an interpretation that incorporates the latest findings from archaeology, philology, anthropology and the study of ancient cultures. To the editors who worked on the book, it represents one of the boldest efforts ever to introduce into the religious mainstream a view of the Bible as a human rather than divine document. "

Proof that Jesus existed for the benefit of Ben:

From Professors Crossan and Watts' book, Who is Jesus.

"That Jesus was crucified under Pontius Pilate, as the Creed states, is as certain as anything historical can ever be.

“ The Jewish historian, Josephus and the pagan historian Tacitus both agree that Jesus was executed by order of the Roman governor of Judea. And is very hard to imagine that Jesus' followers would have invented such a story unless it indeed happened.

“While the brute fact that of Jesus' death by crucifixion is historically certain, however, those detailed narratives in our present gospels are much more problematic. "

“My best historical reconstruction would be something like this. Jesus was arrested during the Passover festival, most likely in response to his action in the Temple. Those who were closest to him ran away for their own safety.

I do not presume that there were any high-level confrontations between Caiaphas and Pilate and Herod Antipas either about Jesus or with Jesus. No doubt they would have agreed before the festival that fast action was to be taken against any disturbance and that a few examples by crucifixion might be especially useful at the outset. And I doubt very much if Jewish police or Roman soldiers needed to go too far up the chain of command in handling a Galilean peasant like Jesus. It is hard for us to imagine the casual brutality with which Jesus was probably taken and executed. All those "last week" details in our gospels, as distinct from the brute facts just mentioned, are prophecy turned into history, rather than history remembered."

See also Professor Crossan's reviews of the existence of Jesus in his other books especially, The Historical Jesus and also Excavating Jesus (with Professor Jonathan Reed doing the archeology discussion) .

Other NT exegetes to include members of the Jesus Seminar have published similar books with appropriate supporting references.

i.e.

Crucifixion of Jesus:(1) 1 Cor 15:3b; (2a) Gos. Pet. 4:10-5:16,18-20; 6:22; (2b) Mark 15:22-38 = Matt 27:33-51a = Luke 23:32-46; (2c) John 19:17b-25a,28-36; (3) Barn. 7:3-5; (4a) 1 Clem. 16:3-4 (=Isaiah 53:1-12); (4b) 1 Clem. 16.15-16 (=Psalm 22:6-8); (5a) Ign. Mag. 11; (5b) Ign. Trall. 9:1b; (5c) Ign. Smyrn. 1.2.- (read them all at wiki.faithfutures. Crucifixion org/index.php/005_Crucifixion_Of_Jesus )

See also Wikipedia's review on the historical Jesus to include the Tacitus' reference to the crucifixion of Jesus.

From ask.com,

"One of the greatest historians of ancient Rome, Cornelius Tacitus is a primary source for much of what is known about life the first and second centuries after the life of Jesus. His most famous works, Histories and Annals, exist in fragmentary form, though many of his earlier writings were lost to time. Tacitus is known for being generally reliable (if somewhat biased toward what he saw as Roman immorality) and for having a uniquely direct (if not blunt) writing style.

Greetings of the day to any one that is reading this topic.

I have been busy having a great time and have not had the time nor the desire to be on line.
But today I am here and I see all of the conversation...so much to talk about!

I think I will just speak to one thing

I am 60 years young and became a Muslim ( leaving the Lutheran background that I grow up in ) in 1998.

I have never been told to not read anything in my life by a Christian nor a Muslim. Knowledge is power...so I read, listen and share if and when I can.

I, being a Christian first, know a bit about the Bible and what has happened in the history of man. All I can say is that we should be happy that God is soooo very great. If God were to do to us as we do to each other, I think mankind would not have gotten to where it is today. The mercy of God is great, I do not care what religion you belong to...the whole deal is God's love and God's word sent down many many times to us mortals via all of the good books. ( where you agree with that or not is not my problem...all of the good books when looked at as a whole say about the same thing about what we are to do to and for each other. If we want to change things or take them out of context...that too is on us!)

So, I will stop my conversation and move on to the celebration of life and have some tea, pray and think of the joy, mercy and the whole wonder of God...cause if I stay here, online trying to take care of the work that God does...I'll miss out on all of the beauty that is here on the planet.

So, to all May the Grace and mercy of God be with you always...ameen.

And go get some Sun!

NieeMA

CCNL:
Where do you dig this stuff up? "Theories" aren't proven, check a dictionary. Jesus actually did exist; the Romans were right up there with the Egyptians when it came to record-keeping, and we know He was crucified. Where are you digging up all this mumbo-jumbo about Abraham and Moses? Scientologists "theorize" that dinosaurs used laser guns. How much credibility does your "argument" carry?
If you don't believe in God, what difference does it make to you whom He chooses as His chosen people?
No one (except a few Protestants in the Bible belt, and of course, the uninformed such as yourself) still believes the Bible is true word-for-word, least of all the Catholic Church.
Since when was Martin Luther visited by angels? He was a reformer, and he had a lot of good points, like stopping the sale of indulgences. Henry VIII was an adulterer by anybody's standards. "problems" like "propheteering" are unaffiliated with the Church and certainly Islam. Please stay on topic.

Daniel, I like your style. Tell me more.

CCNL, do some research.

RADBAM, while the point about political cartoons is very true, Islamic fundamentalism has nothing to do with domestic violence! We even had an Islamic fundamentalist post on the site, and still you all refuse to believe! I guess my freshman year high school English 9 teacher had it right, along with Farley Mowat, Ursula LeGuin, Paul Coelho, and so so many others: people will believe what they want to believe. But you all, you all are vicious in the most Aristotelian sense.

Ivri, I would. I'm not sure if you're complimenting or insulting me. I would expect CCNL to try for once quoting actual doctrine of the faiths he so reviles, indtead of quoting Wikipedia and other open-source knowledge forums, "theories" (which by nature are unproven one would do well to note), and other such balderdash. I'm not sure I understand you. I'm a Catholic, I've got a copy sitting right next to me by the computer. Clarification, please?

CCNL, for someone who feigns knowledge so, I would expect you to continue the façade with fewer childish personal insults.

pmpope68:
"The only connection between religion and domestic violence is the one that misguided individuals choose to dream up. Domestic violence results from insecure individuals who somewhere in their lives found that exerting themselves physically was the way that they could get their way or get respect from people."
AMEN!

CCNL, you can shut up and stop accusing others! I am NOT anyone named "ivri," the mere fact that I don't post my personal info on the internet for stalkers such as yourself to peruse and interview at your leisure does not make me someone else. And threatening others with calls to the Department of Homeland Security? Who do you think you are?

CCNL, your Bible quotes are well and good. But we have already established we don't take the Bible word-for-word. Battles and deaths in the OT are not exactly Holocaust-type. You forget the Roman Empire, the Huns, the Koreans, the Chinese, the Mongols, the Persians and Greeks? what you see is the nature of survival at that time: kill those who would otherwise kill you. War is in mankind's nature. The simple fact that wars and fights happened do not imply their justification. You again forget also that the Bible is primarily a teaching tool, as in with lessons. The purpose of the Judges and the havoc wreaked on other peoples by the Israelites was to show the cycles of sin in which they were stuck, and primarily OBEDIENCE TO GOD. They were instructed specifically to perform certain tasks, and carry them out without fail.

You again quote this one book by one Muslim who was stuck in an awful situation. What about all the Muslims in the US and Europe who aren't stuck in such situations. Again with the generalizations. You should not that in your own quote, it is not "Islamic thinking" or "Islamic way," but "the kind on thinking... in Saudi Arabia and among the Brotherhood of Kenya and Somalia."

I move to ignore CCNL's posts from here on out, in favor of actually having a legitimate and more or less polite discussion on the prompt above. Anyone second the motion?

Ben

Silentvoices noted the following:

"Islam still has so much to offer today's woman: dignity, respect, and protection in all aspects and all stages of her life from birth until death in addition to the recognition, the balance, and means for the fulfilment of all her spiritual, intellectual, physical, and emotional needs."

Really???

From Ayaan Hirsi Ali's autobiography, Infidel:

"Thus begins the extraordinary story of a woman born into a family of desert nomads, circumcised as a child, educated by radical imams in Kenya and Saudi Arabia, taught to believe that if she uncovered her hair, terrible tragedies would ensue. It's a story that, with a few different twists, really could have led to a wretched life and a lonely death, as her grandmother warned. But instead, Hirsi Ali escaped -- and transformed herself into an internationally renowned spokeswoman for the rights of Muslim women."
ref: Washington Post book review.

four excerpts:

p. 47 paperback issue:

"Some of the Saudi women in our neighborhood were regularly beaten by their husbands. You could hear them at night. Their screams resounded across the courtyards. "No! Please! By Allah!"

p.68:

"The Pakistanis were Muslims but they too had castes. The Untouchable girls, both Indian and Pakistani were darker skin. The others would not play with them because they were untouchable. We thought that was funny because of course they were touchable: we touched them see? but also horrifying to think of yourself as untouchable, despicable to the human race."

p.309

"Between October 2004 and May 2005, eleven Muslim girls were killed by their families in just two regions (there are 20 regions in Holland). After that, people stopped telling me I was exaggerating."

p. 347

"The kind on thinking I saw in Saudi Arabia and among the Brotherhood of Kenya and Somalia, is incompatible with human rights and liberal values. It preserves the feudal mind-set based on tribal concepts of honor and shame. It rests on self-deception, hyprocricy, and double standards. It relies on the technologial advances of the West while pretending to ignore their origin in Western thinking. This mind-set makes the transition to modernity very painful for all who practice Islam".

So if there are more males than females in a country, females are then allowed to have more than one husband??

With respect to using the OT as proof that something is good simply because it is described there, peruse the following atrocities in said book. Do these atrocities make analogous atrocities ,e.g. the Holocaust, in the modern world allowable????

Exodus 32: 3,000 Israelites killed by Moses for worshipping the golden calf.

Numbers 31: After killing all men, boys and married women among the Midianites, 32,000 virgins remain as booty for the Israelites. (If unmarried girls are a quarter of the population, then 96,000 people were killed.)

Joshua:

Joshua 8: 12,000 men and women, all the people of Ai, killed.

Joshua 10: Joshua completely destroys Gibeon ("larger than Ai"), Makeddah, Libnah, Lachish, Eglon, Hebron, Debir. "He left no survivors."

Joshua 11: Hazor destroyed. [Paul Johnson, A History of the Jews (1987), estimates the population of Hazor at ?> 50,000]
TOTAL: if Ai is average, 12,000 x 9 = 108,000 killed.

Judges 1: 10,000 Canaanites k. at Battle of Bezek. Jerusalem and Zephath destroyed.

Judges 3: ca. 10,000 Moabites k. at Jordan River.

Judges 8: 120,000 Midianite soldiers k. by Gideon

Judges 20: Benjamin attacked by other tribes. 25,000 killed.

1 Samuel 4: 4,000 Isrealites killed at 1st Battle of Ebenezer/Aphek. 30,000 Isr. k. at 2nd battle.
David:

2 Samuel 8: 22,000 Arameans of Damascus and 18,000 Edomites killed in 2 battles.

2 Samuel 10: 40,000 Aramean footsoldiers and 7,000 charioteers killed at Helam.

2 Samuel 18: 20,000 Israelites under Absalom killed at Ephraim.

1 Kings 20: 100,000 Arameans killed by Israelites at Battle of Aphek. Another 27,000 killed by collapsing wall.

2 Chron 13: Judah beat Israel and inflicted 500,000 casualties.

2 Chron 25: Amaziah, king of Judah, k. 10,000 from Seir in battle and executed 10,000 POWs. Discharged Judean soldiers pillaged and killed 3,000.

2 Chron 28: Pekah, king of Israel, slew 120,000
Judeans

TOTAL: That comes to about 1,283,000 mass killings specifically enumerated in the OT

To everyone on the question of whether polygamy is good or not. I would have to say that if we are discussing methods of increasing the population within a country only and addressing no other problem with respect to polygamy that it would be best if all the women were married and having children--even if this means polygamy--than having women have triplets, quadruplets--octuplets as a woman recently had in I believe California. In general we should meditate on the safest way of assuring mothers and children thrive and are not compromised as to health in mothers having children. If polygamy proves helpful in this regard then perhaps it is good. An examination of the health of Muslim women and children by polygamy an answer to this question? There is perhaps more than one thing good about the Muslim world.

Asslamo alaikum..

Violence exist every where in world and its a global problem but we always try to link it with religions and specially some over here and every try to link it with Islam, which is baseless and nothing but exposing the misunderstanding regarding Islam or hate they have for Islam..

Islam should be viewed as a religion that had immensely improved the status of women and had granted them many rights that the modern world has recognized only this century. Islam still has so much to offer today's woman: dignity, respect, and protection in all aspects and all stages of her life from birth until death in addition to the recognition, the balance, and means for the fulfilment of all her spiritual, intellectual, physical, and emotional needs. No wonder most of those who choose to become Muslims in a country like Britain are women. In the U.S. women converts to Islam outnumber male converts 4 to 1. 85 Islam has so much to offer our world which is in great need of moral guidance and leadership. Ambassador Herman Eilts, in a testimony in front of the committee on Foreign Affairs of the House of Representatives of the United States Congress on June 24th, 1985, said, "The Muslim community of the globe today is in the neighbourhood of one billion. That is an impressive figure. But what to me is equally impressive is that Islam today is the fastest growing monotheistic religion. This is something we have to take into account. Something is right about Islam. It is attracting a good many people." Yes, something is right about Islam and it is time to find that out. I hope this study is a step on this direction.

CCNL

"And a Muslim male with four wives, is he not guilty of raping the last three i.e. polygamy is simply legalized rape??? spousal abuse??"

CNNL Polygamy is a very ancient practice found in many human societies. The Bible did not condemn polygamy. To the contrary, the Old Testament and Rabbinic writings frequently attest to the legality of polygamy. King Solomon is said to have had 700 wives and 300 concubines (1 Kings 11:3)

In most human societies, females outnumber males.In the U.S. there are, at least, eight million more women than men. In a country like Guinea there are 122 females for every 100 males. In Tanzania, there are 95.1 males per 100 females. 55 What should a society do towards such unbalanced sex ratios?

t is interesting to note that in an international youth conference held in Munich in 1948 the problem of the highly unbalanced sex ratio in Germany was discussed. When it became clear that no solution could be agreed upon, some participants suggested polygamy. The initial reaction of the gathering was a mixture of shock and disgust. However, after a careful study of the proposal, the participants agreed that it was the only possible solution. Consequently, polygamy was included among the conference final recommendations. 63

Philip Kilbride, an American anthropologist of Roman Catholic heritage, in his provocative book, Plural marriage for our time, proposes polygamy as a solution to some of the ills of the American society at large.

t is of interest to note that many, non-Muslim as well as Muslim, countries in the world today have outlawed polygamy. Taking a second wife, even with the free consent of the first wife, is a violation of the law. On the other hand, cheating on the wife, without her knowledge or consent, is perfectly legitimate as far as the law is concerned! What is the legal wisdom behind such a contradiction? Is the law designed to reward deception and punish honesty? It is one of the unfathomable paradoxes of our modern 'civilised' world.

Regards

Hold on a minute, lets look at ivri5678's commentary again? Hmmm, "me thinks" ivri5678 is actually Farnaz, the lady atheist of Judaism and member of the JDL returning once more after promising never to return.

So we now have the following aliases, Farnaz aka aka Farnaz2 aka Observer12 aka Observer31, aka ivri5678 and aka yeal? . What next??

ivri aka member of the Indian Veterinary Research Institute?ivri.nic.in/

I see you were busy with the on-line thesaurus this afternoon.

And your comments about senior citizens have been reported to the AARP and the management. We gave them nothing but the Truth of the Matter. Tough to tell exactly though but it appears you were Born, Bred and Brainwashed in Islam?? Might that warrant a call to Homeland Security??

You wouldn't be an "aka" bmorris244 would you??

Tough to tell sometimes what certain bloggers attest to??

The only connection between religion and domestic violence is the one that misguided individuals choose to dream up. Domestic violence results from insecure individuals who somewhere in their lives found that exerting themselves physically was the way that they could get their way or get respect from people.

CCNL:

You wouldn't know the Truth of the Matter if it fell on Your Head with eight exclamation points!!!!!!!! You are a fake empiricist, clogging up the internet with junk data to support your tedious NTsm, Jesus-Preacher Manism. Ad nauseum lists of pseudo-stats, pseudo-data, misleading attributions, Qsm, homophobia, xenophobia, bigotry, cutting/pasting junk, hectoring your betters is your modus operandi.

In your old age, calm your lunatic nerves by living out your remaining years in quiet delusion until the NT god summons you to NT heaven. Otherwise, go to your cave and post on the walls.

Goodbye (!!!!!!!!)

Hmmm, with a name like Pesiflage one expects only Opinions and that is the Truth of the Matter.

Truth and Reality? Wow! Where can I get me some of that?!

I'll admit, there are a couple of regular posters here that seem to be of the opinion that they have a corner on the T&R market - but then, you know what they say about opinions?!

A real humilitarian/egalitarian would try to get by without the capitals.......

ivri5768 :

You noted: " It just might drive CCNL back in the cave, that is, if he has any shame left."

There is no shame in Truth and Reality so exactly what is your contention specifically?

BMorris244:

"I would love for once to see you quote current Catholic teaching. Say, for example, that little book called the Catechism that actually states Church dogma and doctrine"

Oh, yeah? Really? You'd like to see that quoted? Are you sure? Have you taken a good look at it lately? Are you Jewish? A Christian or other with a problem with bigotry? Think about Catechistic reading matter.

I'm trying to restrain myself, but I just might have to take you upon on your suggestion, though not intended for me. It just might drive CCNL back in the cave, that is, if he has any shame left.

While this is an all-too familiar expression of Islamic fundamentalism, it is even more ironic in light of the UN anti-blasphemy resolution sponsored by a consortium of Islamic nations. To invest concern and energy into preventing insulting political cartoons while countenancing murderous violence in the name of the deity you seek to defend is a level of delusion than only fundamentalism could endure.

goodgodforus.com

And a Muslim male with four wives, is he not guilty of raping the last three i.e. polygamy is simply legalized rape??? spousal abuse??

Religious people beheading people? The beheadings due to religion? A direct cause and effect? It seems the case in instances.

What about non-religious people beheading people? No one knows any instances of that? Perhaps there are no instances.

What about non-religious people doing things worse than beheading? What about non-religious people cutting the tongues out of people who dare depart from, say, the liberal, atheist "people of reason" orthodoxy? Cannot think of an example?

I sure can. In fact it is here--right here on on faith--that an example exists. So far as I can tell Susan Jacoby has prevented me from posting on her site here on on faith. She has silenced my voice with nary a word to me. Of course I might be mistaken, but then I would expect to be able to post on her site again--which is to say if it is a technical error or something I would expect it to be fixed.

But somehow I doubt that it will be fixed. You see, Susan Jacoby is not so much an atheist and person of reason as she is a liberal. And what this means, ironically, is that she not only feels reason is on her side, she feels cutting edge, rebellious, in that typical superficial liberal fashion. Oh, yes, she feels so mischievious, such a bad girl.

She thinks like all liberals that she is advanced whereas anything which smacks of the republican party is archaic. No doubt she has decided that I must be republican, religious or something--because liberals live in a Manichean world as much as Republicans do. For the record--and which will no doubt be seen as an insult to Jacoby--I pretty much despise Republicans. I like the big city with all its diversity. I like engaging with different races and ethnic groups.--Hell, I grew up travelling around the world.

But no doubt I am not a man of reason according to Jacoby. In fact I must be evil or something or I would not have been silenced. Might as well behead me. Why let me live if I cannot speak? But do not get me wrong. I am not fishing for Jacoby to stand up and say that I am a voice of reason in this often unreasoning world. That would be for her to insult me--because she would offer that compliment only to someone quite...harmless, predictable, and of course liberal.

But let me now wander, let me just be oh, so unreasonable. I am 45. All my life I have worked pretty much as a security guard only--on the night shift. I am not married. I have not even had sex. All my time is spent on books, music and writing. I usually read two books at a time--one at home and one at work.

The books I am reading now are the short stories of science fiction writer Barry Malzberg and...(ominous tone because Daniel is now approaching one of those viewpoints which cause consternation to liberals and republicans alike) "Unpopular essays" by one Bertrand Russell, atheist, liberal, Nobel prize winner...

Interesting this Russell. One of his essays is titled "the future of mankind". Here Russell meditates on the appearance and development of WMD in human existence. Russell essentially says we will either destroy ourselves totally or we will be reduced to barbarity and have to climb up to civilization once again--or we can work toward establishing a single and worldwide government to certainly at first lay down worldwide law and order.

And here is where it gets interesting. You might think Russell would subscribe to todays liberalism being the atheist, etc. that he is, but...Russell is a bit more than a modern day liberal. He was a true man of reason--not the "reason" which passes today both right and left. Russell has the courage to admit that no matter how much diplomacy is employed a worldwide government will not come into being without an alliance which necessarily uses a modicum of force. Russell even goes so far as to compare this hypothetical world government with the Roman empire--somewhat mean at first, but then when law and order reigns, more benevolent.

Now for the punchline and a sterling reason why I have been booted off Jacoby's site.--And mind you, I have not even broached an original idea of my own. I have simply come upon something uncomfortable to much of modern day thought as I often do in the course of my wide reading. The viewpoint Russell essentially delineates is virtually identical to the now notorious,--hell, hated by liberals--neoconservative viewpoint.

Yes, Bertrand Russell, atheist, liberal, sex machine, Nobel prize winner, logician/mathematician/philosopher can be described as a neoconservative. Read the essay if you do not believe me. I read it for the first time yesterday.

The point should be clear: I am a danger to not only republicans, I am a danger to liberals. I really do try to be a man of reason. Consequently (Should I say consequently? Should I permit myself a martyr complex today? Why not? I can always be something else tomorrow) I have never had anyone compliment me for being a voice of reason in this world.

In fact, as already said, it seems the people of reason today, the atheists, the liberals, feel I am a most unreasonable voice. I have been silenced. My tongue essentially cut off. A fate worse than being beheaded. I guess I cannot expect Jacoby to give head or take it away--my tongue goes instead. But it writhes on the floor like...a snake.

"CCNL refers to "Concerning the Christian Now Liberated," does it not?"

Of course it does. You must be a "newbie" here not to know that.

And who said guardian angels were a matter of faith? Not me but some nuns still teach these fairies actually exist!!

And a synopsis of the flaws and errors of Judaism (for those eyes that have not seen)

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was either the embellishment of the lives of three different men or a
mythical character as was mythical Moses, the "Tablet-Man" who talked to burning bushes and made much magic in Egypt.

Many of the 1.5 million Conservative Jews and many of their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT.

Current crisis:

Realization that the Jews are not god's chosen people.
www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html
For added "pizzazz", Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

Current crises:

Pedophiliac priests, atonement theology and original sin!!!!

3. Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley, Roger Williams et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

Current crises:

Adulterous preachers, "propheteering/ profiteering" evangelicals and atonement theology.

And finally, CCNL, if you cared to read the very first line of the site you quoted, you would know that the fact "That every individual soul has a guardian angel has never been defined by the Church, and is, consequently, not an article of faith"

CCNL:

1st response: the quote form the book about God being alleged to be a "businessman" is irrelevant; as you said, the carrier of Gabriel's messages was a businessman, and therefore anything he writes is likely to sound like a businessman.
If you were to take a leaf from current Catholic practice on the interpretation of the Bible, then you would note the historical-critical method takes into account the background of the narrator (who is more the secretary and tool God uses to convey God's message than the creator of the message) and the historical context of the writing. For example, I highly doubt that Genesis would have survived so many thousands of years if it were a highly advanced and systematic explanation of evolution over billions of years.

And where did you get the awful idea that we are what we read? Every person who has read "Thus spoke Zarathustra" believes in the death of God? Every person who reads the Bible follows it word for word? Every person who reads Edgar Allan Poe is constrained by the ideals therein? That is utterly ridiculous. You are suggesting that we may not read that which does not specifically concern that in which we believe or with which we agree, which is directly to any and all methods and forms of tolerance, understanding, knowledge, and wisdom. Please desist.

2nd response:
Do not misquote me. I did not say the Bible was the 2nd worst book ever written. I said that the Bible and the Qu'ran are the most drastically misinterpreted books in the history of mankind, and as a result some of the worst injustices known to man have been committed in their names.

I would love for once to see you quote current Catholic teaching. Say, for example, that little book called the Catechism that actually states Church dogma and doctrine, instead of Wikipedia articles (didn't your grade school teacher ever fail you for quoting Wikipedia as a professional reference?) and other irrelevant references like Dark Age theologians, who also believed the Earth was the center of the universe. Dark Ages monks were wrong about lots of things, the Church recognizes. So, I still don't see the point of your angels rant...

Tell me again how Jesus has Michael, Gabriel, and Satan (who is not a "modern day demon of the demented" as you seem to insinuate). Do you know anything about the others? Sandalphon? Metatron? Seraphim? The actual hierarchy of angels and their nature? I do not see the pertinence of this topic to the prompt...
Again, it seems as if you are diving into a deep well with no swimming ability and trusting your water wings to save you...

Finally, you never answered my question. CCNL refers to "Concerning the Christian Now Liberated," does it not?

David, keep your best. Although you have a certain point, your statement is as ignorant as it is insulting to anyone of the Muslim faith. Let's make some attempt to skip over the outrageous generalizations, shall we?

And THANK YOU MARIA!

Religion = good, god e.t.c.

Domestic violence = evil

They have nothing to do with each other!

What an inane question. Please clarify what you mean by "religion," "connection," and "domestic violence."

Contrary to their stated mission, "On Faith" seems to be trying to prove that it's impossible to have an intelligent conversation about religion.

It's unfortunate that you still believe we have to read religious books to learn women on the earth are equal to men. The man of your dreams is good not because but in spite of being Muslim.
Best,
David

bmorris244,

Hmmm, yes indeed the second worst book ever written was/is the bible.

And with respect to the "angel/pretty thingie syndrome" since you are a "newbie" here:

Joe Smith had his Moroni.

Jehovah Witnesses have their Jesus /Michael the archangel, the first angelic being created by God;

Mohammed had his Gabriel (this "tinkerbell" got around).

Jesus and his family had Michael, Gabriel, and Satan, the latter being a modern day demon of the demented.

The Abraham-Moses myths had their Angel of Death and other "no-namers" to do their dirty work or other assorted duties.

Contemporary biblical and religious scholars have relegated these "pretty, wingie thingies" to the myth pile. We should do the same to include deleting all references to them in our religious operating manuals. Doing this will eliminate the prophet/profit/prophecy status of these founders and put them where they belong as simple humans just like the rest of us.

Some added references to "tinkerbells".

"Latter-day Saints also believe that Michael the Archangel was Adam (the first man) when he was mortal, and Gabriel lived on the earth as Noah."

Apparently hallucinations did not stop with Joe Smith.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07049c.htm
"This belief in guardian angels can be traced throughout all antiquity; pagans, like Menander and Plutarch (cf. Euseb., "Praep. Evang.", xii), and Neo-Platonists, like Plotinus, held it. It was also the belief of the Babylonians and Assyrians, as their monuments testify, for a figure of a guardian angel now in the British Museum once decorated an Assyrian palace, and might well serve for a modern representation; while Nabopolassar, father of Nebuchadnezzar the Great, says: "He (Marduk) sent a tutelary deity (cherub) of grace to go at my side; in everything that I did, he made my work to succeed."

Catholic monks and Dark Age theologians also did their share of hallucinating:

"TUBUAS-A member of the group of angels who were removed from the ranks of officially recognized celestial hierarchy in 745 by a council in Rome under Pope Zachary. He was joined by Uriel, Adimus, Sabaoth, Simiel, and Raguel."

And tinker bells go way, way back:

"In Zoroastrianism there are different angel like creatures. For example each person has a guardian angel caled Fravashi. They patronize human being and other creatures and also manifest god’s energy. Also, the Amesha Spentas have often been regarded as angels, but they don't convey messages, but are rather emanations of Ahura Mazda ("Wise Lord", God); they appear in an abstract fashion in the religious thought of Zarathustra and then later (during the Achaemenid period of Zoroastrianism) became personalized, associated with an aspect of the divine creation (fire, plants, water...)."

"The beginnings of the biblical belief in angels must be sought in very early folklore. The gods of the Hittites and Canaanites had their supernatural messengers, and parallels to the Old Testament stories of angels are found in Near Eastern literature. "

"The 'Magic Papyri' contain many spells to secure just such help and protection of angels. From magic traditions arose the concept of the guardian angel. "

For added information see the review at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel

NieeMA, NieeMa, NieeMa,

We are what we read!! Unfortunately, Muslims like yourself are not permitted to read books like Ayaan Hirsi Ali's biography, Infidel or Sir Salman Rushdie's Satanic Verses. We gave you a samplying of Hirsi Ali's experience with Islam. What sayest thou?? Her experience definitely vitiates your claims about being Islamic and therefore being..In love, harmony and balance with all of the world.

And for your added perusal, an telling excerpt from Sir Salman Rushdie's book, Satanic Verses:

an excerpt:(p. 376 paperback edition)

"The faithful lived by lawlessness, but in those years Mahound - or should one say the Archangel Gibreel? - should one say Al-Lah? - became obsessed by law.

Amid the palm-trees of the oasis Gibreel appeared to the Prophet and found himself spouting rules, rules, rules, until the faithful could scarcely bear the prospect of any more revelation, Salman said, rules about every damn thing, if a man farts let him turn his face to the wind, a rule
about which hand to use for the purpose of cleaning one's behind.

It was as if no aspect of human existence was to be left unregulated, free. The revelation - the recitation- told the faithful how much to eat, how deeply they should sleep, and which sexual
positions had received divine sanction, so that they leamed that sodomy and the missionary position were approved of by the archangel, whereas the forbidden postures included all those in which the female was on top.

Gibreel further listed the permitted and forbidden subjects of conversation, and earmarked the parts of the body which could not be scratched no matter how unbearably they might itch. He vetoed the consumption of prawns, those bizarre other-worldly creatures which no member of the faithful had ever seen, and required animals to be killed slowly, by bleeding, so that by experiencing their deaths to the full they
might arrive at an understanding of the meaning of their lives, for it is only at the moment of death that living creatures understand
that life has been real, and not a sort of dream.

And Gibreel the archangel specified the manner in which a man should be buried, and how his property should be divided, so that Salman the Persian got to wondering what manner of God this was that soundedso much like a businessman.

This was when he had the idea that
destroyed his faith, because he recalled that of course Mahound himself had been a businessman, and a damned successful one at that, a person to whom organization and rules came naturally, so
how excessively convenient it was that he should have come up with such a very businesslike archangel, who handed down the management decisions of this highly corporate, if noncorporeal, God."

Healthy New Year

bmorris244, Thank you for your kind words and for sure the blessing.

May the God of our fathers be with us now and forever...ameen!!!

Greetings

I use the whole Quran that tells me and all Muslims that want to hear, about the equality of man and woman.

Now, if some people want to do as was done in the old times of many cultures on earth, use the books to do with them what they please...look at what is written to justify their ideas, that is on them and they have to answer to the Creator. That goes for people in the Muslim countries as well as here. ( I think that the Good Books speak to us all! The idea of ownership is not just something that happens with Muslims it is happening in households around the planet!)

I do not have the wisdom needed to answer all of the questions put to me as it relates to things others do. I can say this, I am a Muslim and my husband and I are very happy with our understanding of the Quran that gives me rights that are so wonderful...if they were followed to the letter of the book, all would want that same equality. I keep my money that I earn if I wish to and if I do put it into the household fund it is considered as giving a gift to the man I love.
In all of the Good Books, that man is the bread winner and is to support the family.

I am sorry for what ail went thru and wish her well. I also would love for all to step back and take a breath and learn to love each other again and anew.

More then that, I can not say, I do not need to justify, nor speak other then what I now.

If Islam makes you uncomfortable, get to know a Muslim that is practicing Islam as it is meant to be...In love, harmony and balance with all of the world.

I wish you all Peace in heart, mind and body.

NieeMA

NieeMA, thanks for your wisdom and insight. I wish more people were as thoughtful. God bless you!

CCNL, you are being ridiculous. The Qu'ran does not sanction the types of violence you quote here. The misuse and abuse of the Qu'ran's texts are perhaps the worst of any religion ever. Christianity takes at least second place in that respect.

If I remember, "CCNL" stands for "Concerning the Christian Now Liberated." If you are or were at one time Christian, where is your study and/or extensive experience which gives you the responsibility to mock and trample on the Qu'ran? Oh- and the worst book ever written is definitely NOT the Qu'ran. It's The Moviegoer, which I had to read my sophomore year in high school.

If you are a Christian, one need only quote the numberless atrocities committed during a time like the Spanish Inquisition to rival the pain and death these women have suffered. Or, shall we ignore the patriarchal roots of the Christian faith, in which women could not own property? Also, that "pretty, wingie, talking, fictional thingie named Gabriel" exists in the Christian faith as well.

If you are not Christian, you should do a little more research into both religions, their texts, and their histories before you judge them...

Gladerunner, I hate to have to be the one to bring you up to date on the Christian stance on domestic violence -- oh, wait, it was Christ (like the one whose name we were given as our faith) who said, "Love your neighbor," and accepted not only said women were equal to men, but (gasp!) accepted several as his followers, and (gasp gasp!) his mother, who helped provide the flesh to the greatest tenet of the Christian faith. So, as a Catholic, I don't exactly understand where spousal domestic violence is "hailed as a long-held tradition..."

Again, with the attacks on Islam! There is a reason we say "radical" Islamists and Muslims. So much generalization...

NieeMA,

What copy of the "worst book ever written" aka the koran are you using that teaches women are equal to men??

Some words of wisdom from Ayaan Hirsi Ali who fortunately escaped the horrors of Islam: from her book, Infidel. Said book is banned in Islamic countries.

"Thus begins the extraordinary story of a woman born into a family of desert nomads, circumcised as a child, educated by radical imams in Kenya and Saudi Arabia, taught to believe that if she uncovered her hair, terrible tragedies would ensue. It's a story that, with a few different twists, really could have led to a wretched life and a lonely death, as her grandmother warned. But instead, Hirsi Ali escaped -- and transformed herself into an internationally renowned spokeswoman for the rights of Muslim women."
ref: Washington Post book review.

four excerpts:

p. 47 paperback issue:

"Some of the Saudi women in our neighborhood were regularly beaten by their husbands. You could hear them at night. Their screams resounded across the courtyards. "No! Please! By Allah!"

p.68:

"The Pakistanis were Muslims but they too had castes. The Untouchable girls, both Indian and Pakistani were darker skin. The others would not play with them because they were untouchable. We thought that was funny because of course they were touchable: we touched them see? but also horrifying to think of yourself as untouchable, despicable to the human race."

p.309

"Between October 2004 and May 2005, eleven Muslim girls were killed by their families in just two regions (there are 20 regions in Holland). After that, people stopped telling me I was exaggerating."

p. 347

"The kind on thinking I saw in Saudi Arabia and among the Brotherhood of Kenya and Somalia, is incompatible with human rights and liberal values. It preserves the feudal mind-set based on tribal concepts of honor and shame. It rests on self-deception, hyprocricy, and double standards. It relies on the technologial advances of the West while pretending to ignore their origin in Western thinking. This mind-set makes the transition to modernity very painful for all who practice Islam".

Good day to all
I was beaten by men that were in an organized religions ... Lutheran, Jehovah's Witness and Muslim.

They each tried and failed to put me under their thumb.

I think there is no difference in a man taking a persons head or putting a pistol to her head and blowing it off or cutting her up into pieces.

Theses things would not happen as much if there were places for men to go to get more help in times of need.
A place to blow off steam without the "boys" questioning his manhood. ( we did that in Minnesota)

It would also help if the cries of the woman were heard from the beginning of it all.

When you make the decision to call to " tell " on your abuser, the world looks like it is about to fall out from under you. It is a very scare thing to do in times such as these.

When it happened to me, I knew that if I was hit again there would be a problem so I got out and did what I needed to do. Because of my brave and bold attitude, I was looked at as the one that was at fault, you know the line..."look what YOU made me do".

So until society as a whole values people one and all, these things are going to continue to happen.

Value the man going thru what is happening to him and get him the help he needs.
Value the woman and do something at the first sign of a problem and let her know it is ok to get help for she and the family.
Value the family, remember the children are our future.

For all you woman that will read this, I am doing wonderfully...I left and the right man found me. I am living proof that there is a happy ending, if you can look past the moment.

Oh yes, I became a Muslim in 1998. The man of my dreams is a Muslim who believes that God put women on the earth as an equal to man...and wow, it is great to have that respect. These things we learned from the Bible & the Quran.

Blessings

NieeMA

Almost 500 million Muslim women save a few lucky ones like PM Benazir Bhutto, who sadly was assassinated by a follower of the koran, live under the boots of Ismalic males based on the "word" of one "pretty, wingie, talking, fictional thingie named Gabriel. Again, one must scream, "THE SIGNIFICANT STUPIDITY OF IT ALL!!!!"

"Is there a connection between religion and domestic violence? "

Some religions hail it as long-held tradition. Like christianity...

Antimuslim propaganda to attack and occupy Iraq has brainwashed Americans.

...a connection between RELIGION and domestic violence?

Please name all the religions in which beheading spouses didn't stop at least 200 years ago.

There's probably a connection between medieval thinking and domestic violence. And one major faith that still practices it.