Muslim-Christian crisis

The following article by Willis E. Elliott was rejected by the Washington Post’s “On Faith” blog. This article was the first of his they rejected.

Numerous religious leaders and experts contributed replies; here’s Elliott’s response, which ended up in the Post’s Memory Hole:

“Mutual blasphemers, love one another!” is the title of an essay I published many years ago. Now as then, the human project is to learn not only to live with, but to love, “the blasphemers” (meaning whichever of the two religions is not yours).

1. But the project, so defined, is not neutral. It is Christian and humanist. Christian: Jesus said, “Love your enemies.” Islam, to the contrary, is essentially hostile to “the infidels.” Humanist: Calling evil good is bad news, but the worst news is violence done in the name of God (spelled out, for example, in Mohamed Atta’s theological justification for the attack he led, “9/11”).

2. Blasphemy (irreverent speech or action against a deity or religious person/belief/object) is currently in the news only when Muslims become violent, or threaten violence, when they feel offended: when we Christians feel offended, almost never do we become violent, and almost always we suffer the disrespect in silence.

In the New Testament (and other early Christian literature), much is said about nonviolence, never is violence commanded or even suggested; it is forbidden. Not so, early Muslim literature. The contrast is to be expected: Jesus was anti-violent, Muhammad was violent (a military leader as well as a religious leader).

3. Because Jesus was a failure and Muhammad a success, Christians from the start learned how to be a minority religion and survived Jesus’ failure only by the fact that he didn’t stay dead. Christians don’t know how to behave when they are in power (and, of course, have sometimes abused their power). But Islam was, from its start, majority-minded; and Muslims don’t know how to behave when they are not in power: it enrages them, makes them thin-skinned to “blasphemy,” drives them to achieve power and impose sharia, even motivates some of them to martyr-suicide in killing any they consider enemies of Allah.
4. Muslims are now more aggressive blasphemers against Christianity. In Muslim lands more than a half century ago, I heard no tour-guide blaspheme my religion. Not so my latest experience: the tour-guides went out of their way to insert the statement, “God has no son.” Since we Christians believe in the Holy Trinity, the One God as Father/Son/Holy Spirit, to attack the Holy Trinity is the height of blasphemy.

Read next posted comment for rest of article.

IN REPLY TO (IRT)
KST2 :
“WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN?”

IRT:
"This may be too much to ask from the exclusivist monotheists?"

ANS:
Catholic Charities is renowned throughout the world. It is still at the 2005 Tsunami disaster that killed some 300,000 people aiding the needy. She is in Hatti helping the poor. She has initiated an international adoption service for the orphans of the world. In Africa, the Church initiated its Dream Program, the most profound and effectively administered program in the world for treating AIDS and HIV victims and their families. They are in Pakistan for the flood victims, Niger assisting in the food crisis, and in Sudan to stave off the violence on the defenseless with their aid.

http://donate.crs.org/site/PageServer?pagename=mg_emergency

Mother Teresa of Calcutta is the renowned world icon of the Catholic Church’s expression of charity and humanity to man. She was a giant that defended and protected the poor and dying in the world.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_25031995_evangelium-vitae_en.html

"Every individual, precisely by reason of the mystery of the Word of God who was made flesh (cf. Jn 1:14), is entrusted to the maternal care of the Church. Therefore every threat to human dignity and life must necessarily be felt in the Church's very heart; it cannot but affect her at the core of her faith in the Redemptive Incarnation of the Son of God, and engage her in her mission of proclaiming the Gospel of life in all the world and to every creature (cf. Mk 16:15).

"The Second Vatican Council, in a passage which retains all its relevance today, forcefully condemned a number of crimes and attacks against human life. Thirty years later, taking up the words of the Council and with the same forcefulness I repeat that condemnation in the name of the whole Church, certain that I am interpreting the genuine sentiment of every upright conscience:

"Whatever is opposed to life itself, such as any type of murder, genocide, abortion, euthanasia, or willful self-destruction, whatever violates the integrity of the human person, such as mutilation, torments inflicted on body or mind, attempts to coerce the will itself; whatever insults human dignity, such as subhuman living conditions, arbitrary imprisonment, deportation, slavery, prostitution, the selling of women and children; as well as disgraceful working conditions, where people are treated as mere instruments of gain rather than as free and responsible persons; all these things and others like them are infamies indeed. They poison human society, and they do more harm to those who practice them than to those who suffer from the injury. Moreover, they are a supreme dishonor to the Creator".

IN REPLY TO (IRT)
KST2 :
“ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL”

IRT:
"Is it possible for all these religious leaders (including the Pope) to be a little broad-minded and ask for the protection of all other minorities in Muslim majority states. For example Hindus and Sikhs are heavily persecuted in Pakistan. This may be too much to ask from the exclusivist monotheists?"

ANS:
To the contrary, no one's voice is greater than that of the Catholic Church and she has voiced many times Her efforts to protect and defend all mankind from the ignominies of hateful persecution. She, Herself is the most persecuted religion in the world because She alone posses all the truths that threaten the enemies of God. These truths must be suppressed for the enemies of God to exist.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_25031995_evangelium-vitae_en.html

EVANGELIUM VITAE (The Gospel of Life)
Pope John Paul II

"The gospel of life is at the heart of Jesus' message. Lovingly received day after day by the Church, it is to be preached with dauntless fidelity as "good news" to the people of ”every age and culture.”

The Incomparable Worth Of The Human Person:

"Man is called to a fullness of life which far exceeds the dimensions of his earthly existence, because it consists in sharing the very life of God. The loftiness of this supernatural vocation reveals the greatness and the "inestimable value of human life" even in its temporal phase.

"Life in time, in fact, is the fundamental condition, the initial stage and an integral part of the entire unified process of human existence. It is a process which, unexpectedly and undeservedly, is enlightened by the promise and renewed by the gift of divine life, which will reach its full realization in eternity (cf. 1 Jn 3:1-2).

"When He presents the heart of His redemptive mission, Jesus says: "I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly" (Jn 10:10). In truth, He is referring to that "new" and "eternal" life which consists in communion with the Father, to which every person is freely called in the Son by the power of the Sanctifying Spirit. It is precisely in this "life" that all the aspects and stages of human life achieve their full significance.

The Gospel of life has a profound and persuasive echo in the heart of every person-believer and non-believer alike-because it marvelously fulfils all the heart's expectations while infinitely surpassing them. Even in the midst of difficulties and uncertainties, every person sincerely open to truth and goodness can, by the light of reason and the hidden action of grace, come to recognize in the natural law written in the heart (cf. Rom 2:14-15) the sacred value of human life.

Is it possible for all these religious leaders (including the Pope) to be a little broad-minded and ask for the protection of all other minorities in Muslim majority states. For example Hindus and Sikhs are heavily persecuted in Pakistan. This may be too much to ask from the exclusivist monotheists?

Did anyone at On Faith come to work today?

Tbe same seven articles have been on the front page since Saturday. Commenting has about died on all of them.

Some commentators advocate the right to freedom from religion. This is simply an impossibility. Everyone has basic assumptions, presupposition, beliefs about what exists, what is true, what is right and what is wrong, what is good, less good, evil and less evil. These beliefs may not have been reflected upon and therefore may be hidden from those who hold them. They are religious beliefs, even if they do not include a belief in God or a god, or a supreme being. They are ultimate beliefs. They may not be religious in the sense of religion as holding to belief in God, or a god, or a supreme being, but they are "religionless" religious beliefs nonetheless.

The proponents of the right to freedom from religion are actually proposing that only their "religionless" religious beliefs be allowed in the public square, in public discussion. This is the most extreme intolerance, and very dangerous to a free society.

The religious basis of persons' thinking, political, economic, and social advocacy and policy proposals need to be exposed, not hidden. In a religiously pluralistic society many different religious beliefs will be exposed as the basis for the policies and laws proposed by politicians and governments.

Muslims should base their politics, economics, and social advocacy on their religious beliefs. Christians should base their politics, econoomics and social advocacy on their religious beliefs. "Religionless" religious people should base their politics, economics and social advocacy on their religious beliefs. Freedom means that each has the right, even the duty, to present persuasive arguments to those who disagree with them.

The question about Islam is, "can Islam's basic religious beliefs tolerate such freedom?" If one reads the authoritative texts of Islam and their interpretation by the vast majority of Muslim scholars through the centuries, then the answer is that Islam cannot tolerate religious, political, economic, and social freedom. Islam is not a religion, but an absolutist political, economic, and social ideology. The religious aspect of Islam is totalistic. It is not only "religious" in the sense of holding to belief in Allah. It is religious in the sense of holding to basic assumptions that deny freedom.

IN REPLY TO (IRT)
AREYOUSAYING
“VIOLENCE”

IRT:
“Oh, but Christians NEVER are violent or murderous:”

ANS:
Murder is the intentional and unjust taking of an innocent human life. It was legalized by the Secularist Court when it legalized the murder of the unborn by Abortion. Abortion violated the inviolable Right to Life recognized in the Declaration and the Bill of Rights. It further negated the Catholic principle this nation was founded on, viz. that "all men are created equal" by the Court excluding the unborn.

The Court blasphemed God by redefining human nature. The Catholic Church is not only America's, but the world's most vociferous and sedulous, diligent, persevering and assiduous voice defending the sacred dignity of human life. Her voice of outrage against the Secularist's crime of violence against innocent human life is unequaled.

Violence is, in all cases, caused by the suppression of the rights that are endowed by God in human nature and Catholicism is clearly the most unequivocal, noblest and august defender of all human life in the entire world. That is why She is so persecuted around the world.

It is written, Deuteronomy 32:35 "Revenge is mine, and I will repay them in due time, that their foot may slide: the day of destruction is at hand, and the time makes haste to come." And, in Romans 12:19, “Revenge not yourselves, my dearly beloved; but give place unto wrath, for it is written, 'Revenge is mine, I will repay,' saith the Lord."

The creed of a true Christian is contained in Colossians3: 8cf. “Put ye on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, the bowels of mercy, benignity, humility, modesty, and patience. Bearing with one another and forgiving one another."

If a police force has a “dirty” cop, it doesn’t make the police force dirty; it makes the cop dirty and those who condone such iniquity by looking the other way, and doing nothing, or by direct participation in the dirt. Pedophile priest weren’t being Catholic, they were being anti-Catholic. The Crusades were in defense of the Holy Lands against the Saracens and Muslims. Though some Crusades became unjustly violent, that injustice was anti-Christian. Joan of Arc was burned at the stake because of a corrupt Christian who defiled his religion. War is justified by Christianity by the "Just War Theory," and self-defense is a Christian defended alienable human right.

All men are capable of sin, but man will not sin if he assiduously, with care and presisteence, keeps the precepts and teachings of the Catholic Church.

Muslim-Christian crisis?

Not at all. This is just the case of two powerful corporations fighting for market share. They do that in collusion with the politicians and the super rich on each side. These groups gain by preserving and expanding they power and money.

Believers are only victims that unintentionally work and fight for those enterprises, but the checks are supposed to be cut in the afterlife.

Timmy2 said
"Christians and Muslims are not the problem.
Christianity and Islam are.
People are not the problem.
Archaic, divisive, superstitious cultish ideologies are."

Agree 100%. I'll add that more specifically the problem lies on the leaders of those organizations and their books.

Conflicts between religions are not new. Also among christian society there have been many conflicts of catholics vs. proteststants. Just look to Ireland.

Also see then that inside the islamic world muslims fight versus each other like in Iraq.

And also in the jewish communities it happens that radical orthodox jews fight against liberal and messianic jews.

So it is not good that the media suggerates the opinion of general conflicts between muslims and christians.

Indeed how the media reports around the world heated up the conflicts.

Like in all conflicts information and misinformation play an important role.

Seriously how many citizens in the US know that the prophet Muhammad descended from the family of Abraham and that muslims of course have the same God?

Just look at youtube and you will see many Americans making disgusting comments versus Allah, without knowing that its just one of the plenty names/expressions of the one God.

Allah is derived from old hebrew El Ilah meaning more or less the one God.

And in the christian world it is also pretty unknow that Jesus in the islamic world is a prophet and that also islam awaits the coming of the messiah as jews and christian do.

Indeed the quran teaches that one day muslims and christians will unite. And also the christian prophecy says that one day mankind will live together in peace.

Also think of Jesus, he was a jew. Certainly he followed jewish laws and rules, and also was circumsized and did not eat pig meat or promoted drinking. In the new testament it is also not written to do so.

But the media do not report of such things and the education system also don´t.

We all may not know how to get to the point of the union among the children of God. Maybe the total war is inevitable, but maybe the war has to be fought inside the heads and hearts of each individual as many islamic priests say.

The media actually pushes towards war. But remember the past.

In 1918 at the end of World War 1 was founded the Thule society, a radical occult group that believed that the angel of the creation were spacetrevellers.

Fast this organization gained power due to media channels and spread the belief that the white blonde people descend from the Angels colony Atlantis. This then lead to a radical race ideolog and the Nazi party.

At the end of this development half of Europe was destroyed, millions of jews killed in the holocaust and the total death toll was about 70 million people.

Just imagine what will happen in the 21.th century with todays modern weapons. How many hundred millions around the globe would die if it comes to an escalation of the ongoing conflicts.

And so our societies have to become aware and to learn respect or to pay the price one day with blood.

When God gives us the choice to live together in peace or to kill each other, which choice do you make?

Shouldn´t be so difficult to decide.

Christians and Muslims are not the problem.

Christianity and Islam are.

People are not the problem.

Archaic, divisive, superstitious cultish ideologies are.

edbyronadams Author Profile Page :

AREYOUSAYING :

"How about the Christian massacre of over 100,000 Iraqis based on Lord Cheney's lies of weapons of mass destruction "with little legal consequence"
________________________________

If you have evidence that the Iraq effort was based on ethnic or religious hatred, please produce it.

------------------------------------

Oh, you're so right. It wasn't Christians killing Muslims.

I agree with you that it is lame to blame murders on any religion.

Oh, but Christians NEVER are violent or murderous:

COLUMBUS, Ohio (AP) -- A state hearing officer is recommending that an Ohio school board fire a science teacher accused of burning the image of a cross on students' arms.
John Freshwater has been suspended from a Mount Vernon school without pay.
The school board voted to fire him in 2008, citing an internal investigation that found he had preached his Christian beliefs in class. He also was accused of using a scientific device to mark several students' arms with a cross and keeping a Bible on his desk.

JOS, Nigeria (AP)-- Christian youths attacked a car full of Muslims returning from a wedding in central Nigeria, killing seven people inside the vehicle and sparking retaliatory violence that left one other person dead, an official said Saturday.

Christians are insane, muslims are more insane. It's always an entertaining few minutes to read the christian claims to superiority when discussing "interfaith" relations.

Hey, you're all insane. If you believe in any gods, no matter how many, you're a juvenile who never grew up, an idiot who can't see past his own nose, a moron who would strap on a bomb and blow up people ... you're a bunch of kooks. The fewer and farther between you are the better of humanity will be.

from Freddy Kruger, with regards...

"While not enough is known about Hebrews or its background, its dependence on any early Jewish tradition cannot be proved. In both Hebrews and Qumran a priestly figure is discussed in the context of a Davidic figure; in both cases a divine decree appoints the priests to their eschatological duty; both priestly figures offer an eschatological sacrifice of atonement. Although the author of Hebrews was not directly influenced by Qumran's "Messiah of Aaron,"[6] these and other conceptions did provide "a precedent... to conceive Jesus similarly as a priest making atonement and eternal intercession in the heavenly sanctuary."[2]:p.199"

the wik... Mary wasn't standing over Paul when he wrote this , was he?

So much trouble surrounds belief in the magic sky fairy. Everyone should grow up, say hello to the new millennium, and stop being cult members of these ancient superstitions.

How entertaining the same Huckabees who block alternative energy at every turn for fear of the consequences on BP's profits demonize and make enemies of the very Muslims to whose teats they are addicted to for oil.

Notice the lack of articles by Muslim panelists. Where are those Muslim apologists like Eboo? It is because this crisis was started by Muslims attacking Christians and the indisputable fact that Muslims are treated far better in non-Muslim countries than non-Muslims in Muslim countries. This simply can't be denied and should be a time for them to think long and hard about why this is the case. Answer: Islam itself is intolerant of other religions, at least in the sense of treating them as equals. Allowing people to not be killed for not converting and simply asking them to live as second-class citizens with fewer rights is not tolerance as understood today.

Hypocrites where are you now? When the pastor from Florida wanted to burn Islam's Holy book, the supporters of Islam had their opinions known; quick to condemned the pastors action. Where are all those moderate Muslims and their supporters now? So you support the killing of a human if he/she insults Islam; some may say no, but your silence confirms your feeling. At least the body guard that killed the governor in Pakistan did it for something he believes in. Many of you don't have the backbone to condemn what you know is wrong, always afraid, and hiding, always waiting for some else to take the heat. Many have no shame, some even want to blame the victims of 9/11 for what the terrorist did that day. Instead of condemning the killing of a human, the religious hypocrites whom love to appease Islam want to make it a debate on the religions. While the religion of peace gets a free pass again.

I'm switching back to Sam Adams.
Winter preferences are Black Lager and Blackberry Whitbier.
Winter Ale in a pinch...

I cannot believe they discontinue the Summer Ale just becasue it's cold.

I can't find, Spaten Optimator bottles in this county. One needs to visit the District for serious conosiouring.

Love is sweeping the country. Ride your broom over here. Terrorism is violence without heroes. It's murder without a body. Nephew practices Cole S'law. He lives at ease who lives freely. Send cabbage! Legislation may be applied and freedoms lost. Liberty and crisis cannot share the same space. The one space is larger, it ensures more growth.

"You are the report of every land."

Unfortunately believing in God because of some ancient myths and superstitions does not represent a moderate position. Rather it represents an extreme position based on irrationality and not evidence. Every religious person should ask himself why he or she has the belief system they profess. The true answer is that they were indoctrinated since childhood by authority figures such as their religious teachers and their parents. What would have happened if little Johnny or Mary were each day given an hour of religion by a priest, then by a rabbi, and then by an imam and then by a Buddhist and each of these teachers tells the child that what they are hearing from the others is pure BS. Maybe then we could get some moderation.

Well, yes. Elizabeth Tenety says it's 'bleak' that Christians are being slaughtered in the Mideast (compared to the brutal repression in the US where Christians object to a mosque at aparticular location.) And Susan Thistlewaite says we should just 'reject' mass slaughter. Okay, Susan, we reject it.
The bleeding hearts here bleed just enough to show they have some compassion for slaughtered Christians, and then return to their Rodney King mantra of "C-c-c-an't we all just get along?" and "Were it not for America, the world would be a better place."

The truth man refuses to accept is God created all men/women and that includes those you might not like. As a Christian I was raised to believe in God and the bible. A teacher showed us by teaching an assignment. look at the babies in a nursey no discrimination or racism, at a cemetary bodies lay next to each other with no problems. It seems only in the middle of life is in the middle of life. A child is born with no sin, discriminationn or racism it's taught. What's sad is the Churches have join politics which is exactly what Jesus said would happen.

AREYOUSAYING :

"How about the Christian massacre of over 100,000 Iraqis based on Lord Cheney's lies of weapons of mass destruction "with little legal consequence"
________________________________

If you have evidence that the Iraq effort was based on ethnic or religious hatred, please produce it.

edbyronadams Author Profile Page :

In the introduction to the question, where of the examples of Christian majorities murdering Muslims in their midst with little legal consequence?

The problem does not lie with Christians.
-----------------------------------

How about the Christian massacre of over 100,000 Iraqis based on Lord Cheney's lies of weapons of mass destruction "with little legal consequence". Cheney should be in a prison cell in the Hague smelling Rove's farts.

Gonnagle

You are exactly right. The only solution is for religious people to make a conscious decision to integrate a doctrine of tolerance and toleration into their religious beliefs.

People who sneer at this concept of tolerance betray their inner ill-will towards their fellow man, and are not necessarily very trust-worthy, or worthwhile people.

Depp down Christians know that they are right and Moslems are wrong. Unfortunately Moslems know they are right and Christinas are wrong. You can have all the multifaith dialog you like but you can't get away from the simple fact that deep down each faith is convinced that it is right and has a duty to help those misguided by other faiths to "see the light".

Religion is evil.
Freedom Of Religion is not as evil.
Freedom From Religion is less evil still.

But dumping religion for the insanity it really is, not by law or by force, but by the human species it victimizes, this the the least evil.

Religion is evil. That the religious can only see the evil in other religions is as plain a proof as any thinking human needs ... but then, the religious human isn't thinking anymore, is it?

In the introduction to the question, where of the examples of Christian majorities murdering Muslims in their midst with little legal consequence?

The problem does not lie with Christians.

Punjab Gov. Taseer was shot dead, shot twenty-six times by one of his bodyguards as the remainder stood back and watched.

The murderer stated that he was acting in protest against Gov. Taseer's opposition to the blasphemy law and advocacy for a Christian mother of three children, condemned to death for blasphemy on hearsay evidence.

The murderer now has a facebook page with upwards of 1,000 supporters.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/pakistani-governor-shot-dead-bodyguard/story?id=12539640

What I can not understand about religion.
No one that I know, that knows anyone, that knows anyone, that knows anyone, that know anyone, knows anyone too,, without faith, vision or perspective of live, COME BACK FROM THE DEAD.
So why all the killing.
Is it hard to follow, treat the next person the way you would like to be treated.
Why can't that be the religion for the world.

Northern European Americans have always needed, and have always have had, their scapegoats (maybe it's the German influence - they were experts at it with the Jews).

Our ancestors scapegoated Native Americans, the Chinese, the Irish, the Jews and the Catholics to name a few. Their best was a 50 year run at scapegoating "the godless Communists", the favorite scapegoat of McCarthy and his Republicans.

After Saint Ronald Reagan defeated the Communists single handidly, their scapegoats became the gays, then Mexicans, then liberals whom Fox News and Limbaugh demonized as "socialists", "Marxists", bed-wetters and their small- and-shallow-god only knows what else.

Obama became a scapegoat for anything and everything as a result of the "religious right's" inability to accept the reality America elected a young, intelligent black President.

Their perfect scapegoat is now Muslims with their different religion, languages, skin color and customs.

American Christians have no corner on this as Muslims have scapegoated everyone else as infidels for centuries,
as have the Jews with the Muslims as well.

People will never grow up but one day Muslims will become passe and these mindless sheeple will move on to some other group to hate.

As for me, I'm guilty (but feel self-justified as a victim) of dismissing any credibility of Catholics by scapegoating their pervert priests and those in the Vatican who still hide them. My experiences growing up in intolerant, theocratic Utah make Mormons an easy scapegoat for me as well.

Quite a prolific display, as well as brilliant effort to convince yourself further to disbelief. Relax, no one is attempting to exert dominance. No evidence can actually disproove, moreover, non-existence. Faith is the value of entrusting a higher power outside our own, unknown and unfamiliar -- essentially it is an ineffable subject. For some it is defined by specific, personal experiences, not to be contradicted. Unfortunate if you have lacked these over time.

What is incomprehensivable is why a people allows the religious (or politial)persecution of another. Where is the involvement, and call to action equal these criminal njustices. To do nothing is equivalent to silent advocacy.

Is this the Muslim's or Muslim-American manner of saying the behavior is acceptable? Where is the support?

Is it really that hard to contact and invite a Muslim authority to write as part of this series?
You have an entire piece on Muslim-Christian relations that includes the perspective of Christians, Seculars, Pagans, and Sikhs, but manages to forget to include Muslims?

Perhaps for this series or future series it would be appropriate to hear an Islamic response to the current situation and how they think Christians and Muslims should view the situation.

Muslim-Christian crisis?

Yes: Christians are now taking notice of
how many of them Muslims are murdering
day after day after day... and have been
doing so for CENTURIES and CENTURIES.

http://islamisbad.com

It's probably shocking to Christians (after
1500 years of this ongoing Muslim genocide
of non-Muslims) to finally be hit with a small
measure of education on the subject. But
that's the lack of an unbiased and non-politically
correct modern educational system for ya: It
takes time for the papers to pick up the slack.

Happy reading!

S D Rodrian
http://sdrodrian.com

.

Well stagger me…could having conflicting claims about the Supernatural world have something to do with it? After all, depending on whose side you are on will determine whether after death you go to sit with Jesus or Mohammad up there in the vacuum that is heaven. This is real important stuff worth killing for.
Unbelievable, that despite the huge gains in our understanding we defer to the beliefs of some delusional goat herders who lived a thousand years or more.

When it comes to Islam, there is no such thing as coequal interfaith relations. Islam is always superior, according to Islamic doctrine; and any relations between religious Moslems and non-Moslems must be those of a superior to an inferior. At the time of Muhammad, Islam declared perpetual war against the non-Moslem world until Islam reigns supreme in the world. The basis for Islamic imperialist doctrine comes directly from the Koran (Allah's literal word!) and the saying of Muhammad (held sacred by all religious Moslems). Here are just a few of the passages which set the Moslem attitude toward non-Moslems:
FROM THE KORAN:
-- “You are the noblest community ever raised up for mankind.” (3:110)
-- The unbelievers among the people of the book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of Hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. (98.6).
-- Surely the vilest of animals in Allah’s sight are those who disbelieve. (8.55)
--The unbelievers are your inveterate enemy. (4:101)
-- Mohammed is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. (48:29).
-- It is unlawful for a believer to kill another believer, accidents excepted. (4:92)
-- Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. (5:51)
-- Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme. (8:40)
-- Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme. (2:193)
-- The true believers fight for the cause of God, but the infidels fight for the devil. (4:76)
-- We will put terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. (3:151)
-- I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers. (8:12)
FROM THE SAYINGS OF MUHAMMAD:
-- Muhammad said to the Jews: "If you embrace Islam, you will be safe. You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle, and I want to expel you from this land. “
-- Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.' "
-- Mohammed said, "I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, "None has the right to be worshipped but Allah, and whoever says, " None has the right to be worshipped but Allah , his life and property will be saved by me." (otherwise it will not).
-- Mohammed said, "Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him."
-- Mohammed said, " No Muslim should be killed for killing a Kafir" (infidel).
-- Muhammad said: "Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war, …"
In addition, the most popular manual of Islamic sacred law, approved by the h

mwpalmer Author Profile Page :

AreYouSaying (January 4, 2011 12:43 PM),

… “interfaith relations” is a sharp saint? I know what an oxy-moron is, but what, exactly is an oxy-mormon?
--------------------------

I was trying to be humorous. Don't get you magic underwear in a wad.

ravitchn Author Profile Page :

The only solution is to exterminate the Muslim rabble.
----------------------------------

And how would you do that?

Crusades?

Inquisitions?

(sorry, Christians tried both and neither worked)

Maybe we should just nuke all the countries that end in "stan"

What's that?

We're addicted to their oil?

Oh, never mind.

Muslims have a tribal credo they had inherited from the culture of their founder. They consider all Muslims as members of a mega tribe called Ummah and the rest as belonging to another tribe called Infidels. They believe the war in Iraq and Afghanistan as a jihad (holy war) waged by the “infidels” against the Ummah. Accordingly the Christians of Egypt are “as guilty” of war against the Muslim Ummah as any other Christian throughout the world.

I have blogged so many times about the imperiled Christians, imperiled in fifty countries that I am exhausted. There is nothing new here except, perhaps, that more died than usual.

Christians have been pleading for help in FIFTY COUNTRIES. They cannot hold office n Egypt, are subject to periodic pogroms, etc. have always feared that these Christians will go the way of the ME and African Jews.

Ignored, on their own. About twelve years ago in the midst of attacks against the few Jews in Iran, the interfaith organization I work with asked me what I expected when my pleas on behalf of Christians fell on deaf ears in the US, a Christian nation.

What will it take for us to demand that the oil and geopolitical interests of a few take a backseat to human rights?

And keep this in mind: the issue is not Christians. It is minorities. I know. Indeed, I do.

Fleeing Iran with my family, when I was a girl, I could not understand how the world stood by yet again and watched our suffering. Just as it had stood by during the holocaust, the stalin regime, Biafra, etc., and would stand by again.

WE are now THREE MILLION ME Jews in exile and it is only now that we are beginning to be recognized, that our "Exodus," as the Israelis put it, is understood even within our own community.

IN FIFTY COUNTRIES, Christians are persecuted.

Gonna keep on watchin'?

There's a difference bewteen "religion" and "faith." The former is based on practices and behaviors proported by traditions or someone else's tecahings or intruction as a way to know God. The latter is a personal relationship by choice that one has thought through and worked with God as the basis of their relationship. Therefore, since other people may adhere to faith, view God and practice a religion different than you, it's easy to respect them for who they are.
The problem is when one wants to impose their "religion" on someone else and believes that they have some sort of ordained right execerise worldy consequences (e.g, punishment or death) for not believing, worshipping or living as they do.

The only solution is to exterminate the Muslim rabble.

danielinthelionsden wrote: But now, more and more, it is clear for everyone to see, that this is nihilism, a new and frightening feature of modern Islam, that no Muslim will acknowledge or disucss.
===========================================
My Muslim friends discuss it freely. It scares the stuffing out of them. It's a principal reason many of them left the countries of their birth.

It is not "modern Islam," it is the dying gasp of backward Fundamentalists.

Muslim-Christian conflicts and fighting over fictions
Oh look, Muslims and Christians are fighting each other over their fictional books. This would be comical if people weren’t actually dying over this. As an atheist, I don’t have a “dog in this fight” to use Mel Gibson’s phrase.

I don’t mean to be flippant about this, but when I hear stories like this it just seems par for the course. When you have people who deeply hold beliefs which cannot be justified with evidence, of course they are going to all claim Truth and then fight over who’s got the real Truth.

You can read the rest of my response to this topic:
http://exm.nr/hUeeWo

I will be responding to every issue posted in the 'On Faith' section. If you would like to be notified when my new response is up, please subscribe.

How to deal with the challenges of interfaith relations? First - establish that the value of one person differs not one wit from any other person regardless of race, heritage, or beliefs–wrong or right.

I am not hopeful. My experience suggests that human nature tends to devalue anyone different, a condition that immediately leads to offenses and defenses.

Especially troubling to me are disparaging and spiteful comments that I hear about Muslims. I am not Muslim and disagree fundamentally with much of Muslim theology, but all the Muslims I know personally are good and honorable people. That they are good has plenty to do with their faith and the teachings of their religion.

The harder question is how to deal with conceit and contempt? Those qualities are not faith but human nature (secular). I have no answer for that but to overcome them in myself.

So seven different opinions on Moslem-Christian relations and not a single opinion from a Moslem??????

The Washington Post keeps descending to deeper and deeper levels of pandering and irrelevancy.

AreYouSaying (January 4, 2011 12:43 PM),

… “interfaith relations” is a sharp saint? I know what an oxy-moron is, but what, exactly is an oxy-mormon?

Someone above me wrote "you want peace on earth, get rid of muslims". Islam has no tolerance for Christianity or any other faith. It's an essential part of their doctrine. They are out breeding Christians 5:1, and the end goal of Islam is domination--period...end of subject... Of course, we can't get rid of Muslims because Christians play by a different set of rules. Christians are given a choice by God to choose Christ and his peaceful teachings of love and mercy (which we are told to apply to people of all faiths)or to deny Him and suffer the consequences for our actions in the afterlife. Islam is about submission to a God that shows little mercy or love for his people, but demands their obedience.
This discussion is moot, because when Christians embrace the cross of Christ they embrace the persecution that Christ embraced in His passion and death. A Christian's reward is in Heaven, and applying justice in this world is of no relevance. Muslims will never stop their hatred, and a true Christian wil never stop loving the sinner, but hating their sin.

You want peace on earth, get rid of the muzlums.

All of them.

One useful thing would be for self-styled Christians to repudiate their own hysterical nonsense about the Park 51 project, Koran-burning, etc.

And they could apologize for the war in Iraq, which has killed more civilians than all the "Muslim terrorists" combined. You know, that inconvenient part of the New Testament about "the beam in your own eye, and the mote in your brothers"?

if wapo wants to be the big dog in this fight...
print the cartoons where mohammid or alla is cartoonized...
go ahead...
do it...
also have sally quinn enter a mosque and film it...

For all the intolerant, war-mongering, my-way-or-the-highway Abrahamic religions, "interfaith relations" is an oxy-mormon.

The nihilistic trend in Islam of suicide bombing began as a weaspon of the Palestinians against Israel. Then, it was great! They were martyrs.

But now, more and more, it is clear for everyone to see, that this is nihilism, a new and frightening feature of modern Islam, that no Muslim will acknowledge or disucss.

The road of fundamentlism divides, one way going towards secularism and increased freedom, the other way towards fragmentation and disintegration, and reactive nihilism as a last ditch and desperate attempt to save what is crumbling beneath their feet.

The answer to the topic question must come in two parts: 1. what should the political and religious leaders WITHIN these countries do, and 2. what should political and religious leaders in the USA do?

The attacks on Christians in Iraq, Nigeria, and Egypt were acts of terrorism – terrorism directed against a particular religious group and against religious freedom. Terrorism, regardless of its motivation, is evil and should be stopped.

The Pakistani law regarding blasphemy is clearly designed to support a particular religion and to impede freedom of religion. It is an unjust law and should be repealed.

The political and religious leaders WITHIN these countries should use their influence and power to stop terrorism and promote religious freedom. They won’t of course unless it suits their purposes.

The political and religious leaders in the USA should by word and example show that this country strongly opposes terrorism and supports freedom of religion. But we should not meddle in the internal affairs of other sovereign nations.

The world has become small, and our concern for people should certainly include the poor and oppressed in other countries. However, The USA should not attempt to unilaterally police the world or to solve its myriad social and economic problems. Rather, the USA should work to build positive working relations with other nations and groups that are seeking to do good – to spread freedom, justice, and the pursuit of happiness.

Of course it would also be nice if the political and religious leaders WITHIN the USA would use their power and influence for good.

The answer to the topic question must come in two parts: 1. How should the political and religious leaders WITHIN these countries deal with this situation, and 2. What should political and religious leaders in the USA do?

The attacks on Christians in Iraq, Nigeria, and Egypt were acts of terrorism – terrorism directed against a particular religious group and against religious freedom. Terrorism, regardless of its motivation, is evil and should be stopped.

The Pakistani law regarding blasphemy is clearly designed to support a particular religion and to impede freedom of religion. It is an unjust law and should be repealed.

The political and religious leaders WITHIN these countries should use their influence and power to stop terrorism and promote religious freedom. They won’t, of course, unless it suits their purposes.

The political and religious leaders in the USA should by word and example show that this country strongly opposes terrorism and supports freedom of religion. But we should not meddle in the internal affairs of other sovereign nations.

The world has become small, and our concern for people should certainly include the poor and oppressed in other countries. However, The USA should not attempt to unilaterally police the world or to solve its myriad social and economic problems. Rather, the USA should work to build positive working relations with other nations and groups that are seeking to do good – to spread freedom, justice, and the pursuit of happiness.

In fact it would be great if the leaders in the USA would use their power and influence to further the good in the USA.

How does believing in God give a person more purpose in living, than not believing in God?

Part of our inner makeup is a survival instinct, which causes us to eat, and maintain shelter, and to think of ways to spend our days in safety, if not in comfort as well. That is something that is just inborn. It is what causes us to worry if our heart skips beats so that we may go to the doctor.

And everyone has a capacity for love, and for concern for others, and most people have dear ones, whom I call "loved ones" whom we wish to be safe and happy. Belief in God, or disbelief in God is not relevant, in consideration of any of these things.

Even if a person believes in God, and believes in an afterlife, surely no one believes that they will have the same house in Heaven that they have on Earth, and surely, no one believes they will have the same bank account, or the same wardrobe, or the same stock investments, or the same car, in Heaven. So, how does belief in God help motivate anyone to work and strive for all of these things, more than no belief in God?

And how does belief in God answer the questions about the meaning and purpose of life? Sure, a believer can post some intermediate answers, about how God created the Heavens and Earth, but then what? Where did God come from? This type of belief merely pushes back the mystery a step or two, but beyond is still a fog of infinite antiquity, which no one can fathom, comprehend, not scientist, nor atheist, nor believer.

Our heritage of beliefs is provided to us by the previous generation, and this inheritance is contingent upon time in history, and location upon the earth. This time and location is merely a setting, where the formation of an inner will comes into being, and personal motivations come to operate. This setting for the formation of our personalities and beliefs is very different from place to place and from epoch to epoch, and is based on many, many things that have no existence at all, other than as markers, and interpretive categorizations within our own minds.
No matter what any one of us has been taught to believe or what we think we have figured out about the world, it is not credible to suppose that any other person who was "set" on this earth, within the "setting" of their birth is any more or less favored by God, merely by the "accident" of birth. And therefore, to assert and assume the superiority of one religious truth over another is absurd, even if you do yourself, maintain some sort of belief.
I know it is hard, to consider this broader view, that perhaps it is not self-consistent, or at least not apparently so. But neither does it make any sense that each person's subjective experience should be granted legitimacy to dominate all others. For how can each of the many be dominant and right?

John Devner said, "Life ain't nothin' but a funny, funny riddle."

I hear many atheists say that life is "absurd." This is what Jean-Paul Sartre said. But I would not use that word, necessarily. I would rather say, that life is a curiousity.

We know little.

We appear in a landscape of experiences that seems seamless and complete, but we are deceived, for the world that we perceive is not seamless and complete, but rather, full of disconnections and holes.

It turns out that the things that we seek are few, and common to us all. We want enough food to eat, and a calm place to sleep; we want to make it through to the end of the day with calm and peaceful heart. We want freedom from servitude, and we want someone who cares about us, to help us when we need help. And we want the ones we love most to be safe, and happy.

All the rest is "extra."

And common to us all, is suffereing.

We cannot control what happens to us. We think we choose our paths, but the paths take us far afield from where we thought we were going.

Few of us can even dream of where this journey will take us.

We are equipped to navigate our own local world of rivers and streams, and rocky hills, and meadows, and forests, so that we can find a little food, and make shelters for ourselves. But, it turns out, we have an intelligence that has overcompensated a little, and we can envision a little beyond the local world in which we dwell, the true nature of the ground on which we walk, not as a flat world, as it would seem, but as a spherical world, one, among the many other planets, and stars.

We can envision the reality of many things that are not readily apparent, and infer with a high degree certainty that our scientific speculations on many things are true.

Yet, what can't we see? I am sure there are physical phenomena beyond the extension of any of our senses or imagination, to which access is forbidden.

On these things, even speculation, is by definition, impossible.

Realizing this is a big to deal, at least, it is to me.

Once I thought that I knew so much, and was so smart. But now I know, that I definitely, am not.

Many religious people are cloistered and sheltered and can think only in the extremely narrow confines of their own personal religious heritage, be it from their own families, or from the culture in which they are raised. The Muslim and the Christian, stand up to each other as if peering into a mirror, and hold up their sacred scriptures, and pray to a god which appears in the mirror image of each, and bow down to their prophet or savior, which appears as the mirror image of each, and go to their houses of worship, and pay respect to their clergy, each an image of the other, yet neither comprehending their own reflections, like an ape who looks in a mirror, but does not recognize his own image.

PART I
The problem is that Islam and Christianity are two ravenous wolves leering at each other, seeking to devour each other, but without much chance that any one of two such similar beasts can ever triumph over the other.

I don't ask for freedom to exercise my free will of belief. I ask that my beliefs be freely acknowledged as those beliefs that come from my own true heart, and not from someone else's alien heart. That is the ultimate problem of the fundamentalist's interaction with outsiders and unbelievers--that they seem to think that they can force belief upon an unbelieving heart, when they cannot.

I wouldn't mind sharing the world with fundamentalists and fundamentalism, if they would only acknowledge that my beliefs are different than their own. Even if they know they are right and they know I am wrong, still, my wrong belief is my belief and no amount of lobbying or intimidation can cause my feelings to shift. The most that Fundamentalists can extract from me is a deception that I acknowledge outwardly that they are right, and I am wrong, while inwardly holding to the beliefs of my true heart.

The problem of "fundamentalism" therefore, is not necessarily a problem of religion. Religious fundamentalism is a subset of "fundamentalism."

People make a mistake when they observe that perfectly normal people bash each other to bits over religion. This assumes that "religion" and "religious fundamentalism" is some sort of "monster out there" that grabs onto people, and makes them do monstrous things to each other. But religion is a mental construct, and so is fundamentalism, which itself, is not even necessarily religious.

"Fundamentalism" is a psychological state that people fall into. Even without the religions to motivate people to do monstrous things to each other, they would fall into a similar psychological state, under the illusion of a different motivation. The motivation of the fundamentalist person comes from within his own psychological state of mind; it is something inherent in the composition of the human brain.

Our thoughts, feelings, and beliefs do not arrange themselves according to mathematical logic. Mathematical logic is a little box that we have discovered in the cerebrum, but there is a lot more to human psychology than that little box.

It all comes down to the fundamentalist’s need for certainty in an uncertain world. My personal beliefs are provisional, and change from time to time, from day to day, even from moment to moment. I know that is true, because I feel it happen to me, on my insides, and I have gotten to the stage where I can acknowledge this provisional quality of feelings, emotions, and attitudes, without feeling that it makes me wrong, or bad, or illogical.

PART II
Fundamentalism is one reaction to doubt.

So what about doubt? It is not a big deal; it is a simple deal:

… doubt means, "I'm not sure about that."

It is a feeling.

It is autonomic.

I cannot control my feelings.

I cannot will myself to feel something that I do not feel.

I cannot will myself to love someone whom I so not love.

I cannot will myself to believe something that I do not believe.

I do not know why I have doubt when some people do not.

I do not know why some people feel certainty for the same thing that I doubt.

I do not know why someone likes chocolate ice cream best, when I like vanilla ice cream best.

I just know that these are all feelings which people have, which can be altered only with great difficulty.

The very nature of doubt is that it is uncontrolled, and beyond will power. Doubt is what interrupts our will and causes our beliefs to form themselves, and then to make us who we are.

PART III
Our beliefs and feelings are autonomic, something that comes from inside, that is beyond ones mere will power to control The force of your will is like the hull of a ship, and the doubt that you feel is like the water seeping in, to sink the ship. Try as you may to fill all the leaks, more water springs forth at new sources of leakage. What can one do about this doubt that seeps into ones thoughts?

Nothing.

Doubt happens.

My brain seems to work its own way. My thoughts go where they will. My beliefs form independently of my will to form them. Perhaps my beliefs are me, and therefore I cannot make them happen, but instead, they make me happen.

When someone compliments my intelligence, I cannot really thank them; I cannot take credit for it; I don't know how being intelligent works. I didn't make this brain which operates my soul, and I didn't set up this grid of thoughts that lights me up from within. I just found myself, all here, ready-made, struggling to understand.

When we argue about our beliefs, the point ultimately is not who is right or who is wrong. The point is that even if you think another person is wrong, you cannot change the belief of their true heart by the force of your will, nor by any other force, for that matter. For the only way to cut out the belief of another's true heart is by cutting out the heart, and killing the person. And even then, you have not changed the belief of the person whom you have killed.

The fundamentalists seek to force alien beliefs on others, when they, themselves, in their darkness, are just as powerless to control their own thoughts and beliefs. This is arrogance. It is ego-centric, and selfish, even narcissistic to suppose that one could reach into the most intimate place of another man's heart, and tinker with it, to make it better, like tinkering with a car engine; it just don't work that way.

In all of this, I wonder, where is free will? Is there such a thing? I feel that there must be. I feel free. I am free to let my mind work its way, but I am not really causing it to work as it does. It works as it does by some influence that I cannot imagine or perceive, yet must, somehow, be. These thoughts take me to the very edge of the meaning of human existence, and our place on the earth, and the meaning of free will. I think that I must believe in some sort of "Providence" which enables all of "this" to be, by some mystery that I know I can never comprehend.

Some may argue with my concepts and yet communication is a good thing to me. I see interfaith dialoge as a means of survival. Most notable of dialoges to me started through the Crusades which led to peace and security for many a tribe, country (nations) and continent.

As stated, we can argue over anything but we must first have mutual respect for one another. That respect is grounded through a Right to Individual beliefs. In many ancient and modern ages, the shield of Faith was upheld by Truth so that an establishment of Universal Truths was in order. A recent search of Universal Truth was conducted by the King Abdullah II of Jordon resulting in the Ammman's Message for the Muslim world. Other searches for universal truths had been previously established such as the Universal Declaration of Human Rights by Cyrus the Great of the Persian Empire. A unversalist movement which was established in the United States led to doctrine of Universal truths. And that the Quakers being both founders and mentors of the United States have made it a point to continue a tradition of carrying the message of Universal truths on a global scale.

Now, where there are community builders and maintainers at work, so are those entities that wish to separate us as human beings. The chaos rangers, as I like to call them, seek to establish chaos, disorder and destruction as a means to separate nations of individual families in my world. In looking for apoctolyptic (sp), I am but a casual observer not one prone to take end of the world on 12/12/12 but some do take it very seriously indeed. On the otherhand, some 3000 red winged blackbirds caused me to read Mark IV through VII again. Perhaps we all make our own "signs" ? Think about it, or not...