TTWSYFAMDGGAHJMJ2,

O Titwisy Fam De Gagah Jemji (the Second)

You've tried to bury the point of my last post with tendentious blather about *rhetoric* vs *proof*.

And you have avoided my clear question.

I'll restate it:

ARE YOU A SYMPATHISER OF OPUS DEI?

TTWSYFAMDGGAHJMJ2 wrote:

"ANS:
Where is your scientific proof???"

And where is yours? Surely you realize that papers and theses do not constitute proof. Or does that matter to you? You are merely a garden-variety homophobe. You have contributed nothing but invective and personal theory.

How old are you?

In Reply to His Holiness TTWSYFAMDGGAHJMJ2 | June 3, 2009 7:57 AM

“Overwhelming evidence supports the belief that homosexuality is a sexual deviancy often accompanied by disorders that have dire consequences for our culture," wrote Steve Baldwin in, "Child Molestation and the Homosexual Movement," soon to be published by the Regent University Law Review.

In her thesis – also written for the Regent University Law Review – Reisman cited psychologist Eugene Abel, whose research found that homosexuals "sexually molest young boys with an incidence that is occurring from five times greater than the rate of heterosexuals.

“Baldwin wrote.”However, it is time to acknowledge that homosexual behavior threatens the foundation of Western civilization – the nuclear family."

__________________________________

If you choose to believe this, why do you encourage homosexuals to join the priesthood with a vow of "celibacy" they can use to hide their dislike of marrying woman? I find it incredible Catholics exclude and damn homosexuals while their clergy is full of them and then moralize to the rest of us about it.

You are also dishonest by not noting that Regent University, in redneck Virgina Beach, bills itself as "America's Preeminent Christian University" What a credible source for this research - couldn't you find a Catholic University with enough hatred of gays to suffice.

IN REPLY TO (IRT)
“MORE RHETORIC?
ONOFRIO
POSTED BY: | JUNE 2, 2009 8:17 PM

IRT:
RHETORIC (with added BOMBAST)
And there's a whole lot more. In fact, everything you've posted is utterly rhetorical, fetchingly studded with such tautological gems as "self-autonomy"

ANS:
Tell what you think a tautology is and why it is applicable by noting the principle of “self-autonomy” used in the abortion argument.

Have you never heard of “This is my body and I’ll do with it what I want?” Even though a mother is pregnant, the child is not her body and yet the argument from abortion is that it is her body and she has a right to destroy the unborn by having it murdered.

IN REPLY TO (IRT)
“RHETORIC?
ONOFRIO
POSTED BY: | JUNE 2, 2009 8:17 PM

“Overwhelming evidence supports the belief that homosexuality is a sexual deviancy often accompanied by disorders that have dire consequences for our culture," wrote Steve Baldwin in, "Child Molestation and the Homosexual Movement," soon to be published by the Regent University Law Review.

In her thesis – also written for the Regent University Law Review – Reisman cited psychologist Eugene Abel, whose research found that homosexuals "sexually molest young boys with an incidence that is occurring from five times greater than the rate of heterosexuals.

“Baldwin wrote.”However, it is time to acknowledge that homosexual behavior threatens the foundation of Western civilization – the nuclear family."

IN REPLY TO (IRT)
“RHETORIC?
ONOFRIO
POSTED BY: | JUNE 2, 2009 8:17 PM

IRT:
“Some examples:”
["from gay sex ensues pedophilia and pederasty" – RHETORIC]

["and from abortion stems child abuse"] –

“RHETORIC (or are all those priestly child abusers also pro-choice?)

ANS:
Where is your scientific proof???

Are priestly child abusers pro-abortion? The question is irrelative. Though both are abuses of children, the one doesn’t necessarily admit to the other.

Repeating “Rhetoric” like a parrot only shows you can speak like a parrot. Babble proves nothing. An android can repeat and repeat and repeat but rhetoric means nothing if it cannot be substantiated, viz. it only becomes hot air.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=27431

Baldwin is the executive director of the Council for National Policy in Washington, D.C.

“‘What does the academic literature say about the relationship between homosexuality and child molestation? Quite a bit, actually.’ He wrote, quoting data compiled by the Family Research Institute, ‘Scientific studies confirm a strong pedophilic predisposition among homosexuals.’

“Report: Pedophilia more common among 'gays'
“The institute, after reviewing more than 19 studies and peer-reviewed reports in a 1985 ‘Psychological Reports’ article, found that homosexuals account for between 25 and 40 percent of all child molestation.”

Note homosexuals are only 1.5 to 2.5 percent of the America’s population.

TTWSYFAMDGGAHJMJ2,

O Titwisy Fam De Gagah Jemji (the Second)

You write to Doug White:
"The lunacy you speak of is all on the left. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. The left has given us the Sexual Revolution and hence the Culture of Death. That is the setting the Church has to exist in, and it has done everything it possibly could to combat it. Consequently, to blame the Church for what the Left has wrought is like blaming a fish for being wet."

Hmm, ichthus again...

Who said anything about *the Left*? My plaint - which is simply an echo of what many others cry - isn't about left and right; it's about consistency; it's about the Church living up to its own ideals.

Has it never struck you that perhaps there are those who desperately want the Church to be as good as it claims, who are genuinely grieved that it turns out to be yet another case of hollow HYPE?

So, you imply that you're both right and *Right*. All that, and of the true light, too!

I recall a saying: "Too much sunshine makes a desert." Selah.

Since you have evoked *the Right* along with your demon *Left*, tell us, are you a fan of Franco-brand Catholic reaction? Or, rather, that of Escriva?

In short, are you a sympathiser of Opus Dei?

IN REPLY TO (IRT)
DOUG_WHITE
POSTED | JUNE 2,

[Likewise, neither should it be said of Catholicism that it condones child abuse.]

IRT:
“Of course it does. That is exactly what cover-up is all about. More of your lunacy”

ANS:
What is this cover up you’re talking about? If there is an embezzler in a bank and he is caught, do you claim the bank was condoning embezzlement, or condemn all banks. Certain people may have covered up, but the Church never condone such iniquity; it is the individual who decides to cover up, ignore the Church’s teachings, and goes against Her precepts.

These alleged cover-ups are apparently the 141 priests, from 1944 to 2002, being transferred to another diocese after there has been a settlement with the family, a psychotic evaluation of the priest, and the Bishop of that diocese acting on the advice of the medical evaluation.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0890420254/103-6353385-0797436?v=glance

The problem is this. When the American Psychiatric Association and the American Psychological Association, and its Psychiatrists and Psychologists are telling you homosexuality poses no problems and the Bishop acts on such advise you have a hard time blaming the Church.

The lunacy you speak of is all on the left.

You can’t have your cake and eat it too. The left has given us the Sexual Revolution and hence the Culture of Death. That is the setting the Church has to exist in, and it has done everything it possibly could to combat it. Consequently, to blame the Church for what the Left has wrought is like blaming a fish for being wet.

http://www.usccb.org/nrb/johnjaystudy/exec.pdf

“The Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate (CARA) reports a total of 94,607 priests for the period 1960-2002. When we look at the time period covered by the CARA database, the number of priests with ALLEGATIONS of sexual abuse is 4,127. Thus, the percentage of priests accused for this time period is 4.3% if we rely on the CARA figures. A total of 10,667 individuals made allegations of child sexual abuse by priests.

Less than 13% of allegations were made in the year in which the abuse allegedly began, and more than 25% of the allegations were made more than 30 years after the alleged abuse began

“If the total number of priests in religious communities who have had allegations made against them is presented as a percentage of all religious priests in ministry, as estimated from the study data, the percentage ACCUSED of child sexual abuse is 2.7%.”

About seventy percent of Homosexuals, outside of the Catholic Church clerics, are said to have engaged in pedophilia or pederasty and are five times more apt to be child abusers than their heterosexual counter-parts.

Thomas Baum,

Thank you for offering a faithfully Catholic alternative to the likes of Titwisy.

When I encounter such as he(?), I am grieved and angered. Not so with yourself.

I am sorry if my own rhetoric grates on you at times. Respect to your patient trinity and your eucharist.

TTWSYFAMDGGAHJMJ2

O Titwisy Fam De Gagah Jemji (the Second)

You:
"What history, show it; rhetoric will get you nowhere."

Clear case of log and mote, there, Titwisy. You're quite the rhetor yourself, yea, a high flown one at that, with all your churchly fulmination. If it gets me nowhere, it gets thee nowhere too.

Pot and kettle.

Some examples:

"from gay sex ensues pedophilia and pederasty" - RHETORIC

"and from abortion stems child abuse" - RHETORIC (or are all those priestly child abusers also pro-choice?)

"Whatever the Church mouths comes from the mouth of God. It’s called Divine Revelation, and it is written in Scripture." - RHETORIC (with added BOMBAST)

And there's a whole lot more. In fact, everything you've posted is utterly rhetorical, fetchingly studded with such tautological gems as "self-autonomy".

So, we who call the Church to account because it asylums vipers are all hell-ushering, depraved, "self-autonomous" fools. You tar us all Satanspawn and hurl down your self-evident absolutes like some eunuch Zeus. But we won't turn to ashes, Titwisy.

If abusive priests are the apostasising abomination you claim, then the Church should be doing its utmost to root them out, instead of *moving them on*, and trying to muzzle their victims, and generally dodging accountability. Making this demand for simple consistency does not make me immoral, perverse, benighted, or any of your other ad hominems.

Titwisy, Innocent III might have admired your imperious bluster, but he died nine centuries ago. That old imperium of pyres and spires is long gone.

Whatever the ills of this age may be, your brand of high-horsery offers neither salve nor insight.

TTWSYFAMDGGAHJMJ2

You wrote, "Whatever the Church mouths comes from the mouth of God. It’s called Divine Revelation, and it is written in Scripture."

Jesus said that He would send the Holy Spirit to guide us into All Truth, He did NOT say He would send the "Church" to guide us and that is what is written in Scripture.

The Church has a "mission" and do you even know who comprises the "Church"?

Do you know what "Catholicism" even teaches because it seems as if quite a few "clergy" don't have a clue and I might add quite a few "laity" are in the same boat.

Being in "good standing" with the Catholic "religion" does not necessarily mean that one is in "good standing" with God.

You also wrote, "God has given every man a chance to choose eternal happiness in Heaven or eternal damnation in Hell."

Do you even have a clue what "hell" is?

God extended the invitation to, "Come follow Me", did He not?

Do you know that what Jesus said on the cross, "It is finished" translates as "Paid in full", something to think about.

Something to chew on for the time being.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

IN REPLY (IRT)
ONOFRIO
POSTED JUNE 1, 2009 3:07 AM
“MORAL DEVIANCY”

IRT:
“Such zeal. Yet the Church hierarchy has a history of protecting abusers, of special pleading for them, of blaming their victims, and paying for their silence. The Church mouths such formulaic censure, yet remains semper eadem in practice.”

ANS:

You can't murder your unborn, protect gay sex, and then lament about its consequences, viz. the depredation of human life. When you cheapen human life, you degrade those who live it. Hence, from gay sex ensues pedophilia and pederasty, and licentiousness, and from abortion stems child abuse.

The Church is embedded in the Sexual Revolution and the Culture of Death that portends the death of America by defying the Natural and Moral Law. We have impugned the integrity of human life and therefore self-worth. The fiasco in the Irish orphanages is not the cause of the Church but those who abandon Her principles.

America is now witness to the Culture of Death, over fifty million unborn have been slaughtered under the license of freedom and self-autonomy. The consequence of abortion, and homosexuality, have engendered a call for self-immolation, viz. Suicide. Suicide ranks third among the major death of our youth, is the eighth major cause of death for adults and is rising.

Our culture, in its arrogance and licentiousness, has generated the debaucherous Sexual Revolution, a license for irresponsible sex. The fraudulent remedy for this Revolution’s moral treachery is a more nefarious calamity, the Culture of Death.

fr xavier3:

>...They were beaten brutally and often - on the soles of the feet, hanging from hooks, on open blisters, with spade handles, chair legs and crucifixes from nuns' belts. They were stripped, belittled, burned with hot pokers, locked in cupboards, bitten, scalded, held under water and set upon by dogs. They slaved in laundries, made rosary beads, were given little food and not educated...

Sounds like the movie "The Magdalene Sisters". SO horrific, the way those girls were treated.

It is obvious that DOUG_WHITE is a good "friend" of Farnaz. What sayest thou about Salero and Onofrio?? Maybe they are all "closet" Baha'ists???

IN REPLY (IRT)
ONOFRIO
POSTED JUNE 1, 2009 3:07 AM

IRT:
“Such zeal. Yet the Church hierarchy has a history of protecting abusers, of special pleading for them, of blaming their victims, and paying for their silence. The Church mouths such formulaic censure, yet remains semper eadem in practice.”

ANS:
What history, show it; rhetoric will get you nowhere.

Whatever the Church mouths comes from the mouth of God. It’s called Divine Revelation, and it is written in Scripture.

Moreover, only the foolish, who think they are a god unto themselves, have avoided the Church's wisdom and counsel that has been passed down through the ages by the Church. God instituted His Church so that man may have life everlasting. God has given every man a chance to choose eternal happiness in Heaven or eternal damnation in Hell.

Only the individual is responsible for his destiny. It is the individual who chooses to be an immoral pervert, not the Church. The Church can only assist man to achieve the purpose for which he has been created, Paradise. If man spurns Her counsel and Her gifts, if man sees his destiny dissipated in the indulgence, in the extravagant, in intemperate or dissolute pleasures of the world, he is making himself a pathway for a destiny to Hell.

It is man alone who chooses to be the frivolous grasshopper or the wise ant, not the Church. Since man has a free will, man can choose Hell or Heaven. If he chooses Heaven, he will become a Saint, if he defiles the Church, then he defiles God. If man chooses damnation or Hell, then he choose to be a fool and the Church cannot help him.

Those who rebuke the wisdom and counsel of the Church, who disregard its admonitions and reprimands, its cautions and exhortations, its warnings and remonstrations, then they rebuke God their Creator. In their deliberated ignorance they solicit the cataclysmal coming of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse—Famine, Pestilence, War, and Death.

In a world of destitution and enmity, we are witness to the contemporary consequences of those who pursue to lambast the Church and Her approbations —Nazi Germany, Communist East Berlin, the Congo, Sudan, the Middle East, Lebanon, North Korea and China.

If we are indolent in seeking Truth, and blind to what is happening around us, we will never see the path to eternal happiness. It is said the morally blind are falling into Hell like the Autumn leaves falling from the trees in their prelude to the coming of Winter.

TTWSYFAMDGGAHJMJ2

"Likewise, neither should it be said of Catholicism that it condones child abuse."

Of course it does. That is exactly what coverup is all about.

More of your lunacy.

TTWSYFAMDGGAHJMJ2

O Titwisy Fam De Gagah Jemji (the Second)

"abhorrent abomination"

Are there abominations that aren't abhorrent?

Nice, cosy, familiar abominations?

Do you count yourself as one of the latter?

Yours,
A curious devil

...
"Conformity is confused with unity, criticism with disloyalty, and faith commitment is reduced to blind obedience. Such is not Catholic America: it is the cuckoo's nest."...
BY Anthony M. Stevens-Arroyo
+++++++++++++

It does certainly sounds to me like to that part of the New World known as central and south america in cluding Mexico.

???

TTWSYFAMDGGAHJMJ2

"No one in the world defends little children more or even equal to the Catholic Church."

If that is so, then the Church hierarchy should stop playing damage control. Or have they all got *something to hide*?

"Those who abuse children have abandon the Church and are an anathema and an abhorrent abomination to the Church."

Such zeal. Yet the Church hierarchy has a history of protecting abusers, of special pleading for them, of blaming their victims, and paying for their silence. The Church mouths such formulaic censure, yet remains semper eadem in practice.

Abuse - sexual and otherwise - of minors by Catholic religious is not some fringe outrage perpetrated by a few reprobates; it has been endemic, and will continue thus, so long as the Church cherishes its official sarcophobia.

You deploy slain foetuses like a moral trump card, as if the Church's posture on abortion somehow atones for its nudge-and-wink to religious lechery. What you have done here shows no concern for *the unborn*, rather a willingness to manipulate outrage for mere polemical effect.

In all of this, the Church shows itself no divine institution, but merely another tribe jealous of its honour, and no more.

Human, all too human...

How the USA taxpayers deal with domestic terrorists:

- Timothy McVeigh was executed. Terry Nichols will follow soon.

- Eric Rudolph is spending three life terms in prison with no parole.

- Jim Jones, David Koresh, Kaczynski, and the KKK were all dealt with and either eliminated themselves or are being punished.

Child rape isn't a recent thing in churches.
It's that we are only hearing about it now.
It's been going on for hundreds, perhaps even thousands of years. In ancient times there were no newspapers, no radios, no TV's to tell folks what was happening in churches and other religious places.
Raping children was nothing compared to torturing and burning non-believers. It was probably R&R for tired clerics who needed some pleasure in their grim and cruel lives.
Nowadays the media tells all, and so we think priestly pedophilia a recent phenomenon. If only the children of the past could talk, we would be horrified.

See today's headlines just below:

A stalwart representative of the pro-life movement murders another physician for Jesus' sake, in church and on Sunday at that - ironies abound.

'Kansas abortion doctor shot to death at church.

Mike Hutmacher / MCT / Newscom file Abortion provider Dr. George Tiller was shot and killed at his Wichita church on Sunday, police say. Tiller had been among the few U.S. physicians performing late-term abortions.'

Will the murderer at large be welcomed into paradise after he gets the needle?

There are idiots all around that will celebrate this gutless cowardly act....

...but what would Jesus say??

irt TTWSYFAMDGGAHJMJ2 | May 31, 2009 6:33 AM

thank you but the Church needs to save its prayers for itself - It needs them more than I do

IN REPLY TO (IRT)
COLORADODOG
POSTED MAY 30, 2009 4:45 PM

ANS:
Were you the molester or the victim?
The Church prays for you.

In reply to the graphic TTWSYFAMDGGAHJMJ2:

In molestation by priests a defenseless child is yanked by the arm or the ear into a back room of a rectory while it's mother thinks it is living in the safe, protective arms of the Christ's Brothers. Visualize yourself being a little defenseless child, first your acolyte robe is carefully removed, then your pants, then your underwear. Think about a strong adult hand then painfully squeezing your testicles and penis. Think about an adult you were taught to trust doing that to you.

Further, picture someone forcing their hard adult penis into your mouth in attempt to sexually satisfy themselves and you escape and find the predator pursues you and finishes himself by tearing your rectum open in horrible bleeding, humiliation and pain.

That is what happens when pedophiles are continued to be hidden by Cardinals Law, Mahoney and Rivera. Popes and bishops have looked the other way a thousand times to allow these monsters to finish the child off.

Imagine yourself sleeping, and your mother has someone come "to say hello to you" and then plunge their hard penis into your mouth and forces you to suck out their vile semen as you try to scream for help but choke and gag instead.

It's all justified, though, because Catholics have not abandoned their clergy. Shut-up, say nothing and just be happy they saved you from abortion.

IN REPLY TO (IRT)
ANTHONY M. STEVENS-ARROYO
MAY 20, 2009
“MY ANALYSIS”

IRT:
“My analysis relies on the classic sociological text, Asylums (1961) by Erving Goffman. If you haven't the time to read this book, you can rent the DVD of the 1975 movie, "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest," staring a young Jack Nicholson. The basic idea is that in some self-contained institutions, a close-minded mentality takes over. The only behavior permitted is what allows the institution to operate without conflict. Not only asylums but also seminaries, convents, hospitals, military training camps, etc. risk suppressing considerations of individual rights, concern for particular needs, and any semblance of common sense. I suspect Asylums helps answer the question posed by Archbishop Martin of how "ideals became debased." The closed institutions in Ireland, I would say, were unable to fix the problems because they suppressed any information about the abuses that would have disturbed the status quo.

ANS:
I wonder just how your analysis applies to the abuse during the Industrial Revolution. Just how did those debase ideas come about under your “One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest," analogy. during the Industrial Revolution. Eighty two percent of these abuses are said to have taken place before the Seventies. Would one not wonder were some of the remnants of the Industrial Revolution still lingering around?

“As the New York Times noted, “many of them [are] now more than 70 years old.” And quite frankly, corporal punishment was not exactly unknown in many homes during these times, and this is doubly true when dealing with miscreants—Catholic League.”

IN REPLY TO (IRT)
ANTHONY M. STEVENS-ARROYO
MAY 20, 2009

The greatest child abuse in the world is not because of Catholicism but because of the abuse of Catholicism.

In abortion a little defenseless child is cut by a curette into pieces while it lives in the womb of their mother. Visualize yourself being a little defenseless child, first your arm is cut off, then your leg, another arm and another leg, then your head. Think about someone doing that to you.

Further, picture someone dumping acid on you in an attempt to murder you and you escape and find the murderer pursues you and finishes the murder.

That is what happens when the abortionist uses saline solution and botches the abortion. Obama voted three times to allow that abortionist to finish the child off.

Imagine yourself sleeping, and your mother has someone come in and plunge a surgical scissors into the back of your skull and sucks out your brains.

Think about having your arms and legs sucked from your body by a powerful vacuum while being unable to run, and helpless to do anything about it.

That is abuse that happens in America to that little defenseless child being aborted 1.3 million times a year, 43 million times a year worldwide, and Obama is now funding these murders worldwide. It is now legalized in Ireland not because of Catholicism but because of the abandonment of Catholicism.

It took three attempts for the Supreme Court finally to get it right.. Four apocalyptic Justices still defended partial-birth abortion. Obama wants his appointee to the Court to defend it, as well

Beverly McMillan:
“On why she stopped doing abortions: "It got to where I couldn't stand to see the little bodies anymore."

Planned Parenthood president Mary Calderone:
"Abortion is the taking of a life."

“Late-term fetuses are being dissected and their parts sold for huge profits. Only 2 percent of late-term fetuses have any abnormalities. They range in age from 4 to 7 months. Sometimes the babies are born alive, and the doctor must break their neck or beat them to death or put them to drown in the garbage with her mother's blood. Is this acceptable?"

No one in the world defends little children more or even equal to the Catholic Church. Those who abuse children have abandon the Church and are an anathema and an abhorrent abomination to the Church.

IN REPLY TO (IRT)
MAY 20, 2009
CHILD ABUSE

The principle that governs the Catholic Church in regard to the abuse of Children is so stated:

Mt 18:6
“But he that shall scandalize one of these little ones that believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be drowned in the depth of the sea. “

If some Americans rob banks, and some rape children and others, and some murder people, we don’t say Americans are murderers, or Americans are rapist, or America stands for robbing banks, because America doesn’t stand for those things.

Likewise, neither should it be said of Catholicism that it condones child abuse. The child abuse in Ireland has no more to do with the principles of Catholicism than does the abuse of children has to do with the governments that existed during the Industrial Revolution. Those who abuse others and call themselves Catholic are deluding themselves, and a disgrace to Catholicism.

The Donahue logic posted by: wadowia | May 29, 2009 4:31 PM

"Given that 88% of these abuses were committed by secular personnel,.." that make the 12% committed by the Catholic clergy OK.

>Such systematic abuse over such a long >period of time would normally mean the end >of most organizations that perpetrated such >crimes

Given that 88% of these abuses were committed by secular personnel, it should mean the end of secular institutions.

Such systematic abuse over such a long period of time would normally mean the end of most organizations that perpetrated such crimes, why should the 'church' be an exception? And while the moral authority of the Roman Catholic church was already at an all time low from the pedophile priest scandals, even before the Ryan report on Irish abuse came out, isn't it time to ask harder questions about the very origins of an organization that has so self evidently perverted the very spirit of the God which it 'claims' to represent, a claim that now appears so spurious as to be ridiculous if it wasn't so tragic. Questioning the origins of this church may seem an impossible task, but the impossible has now become possible!
Judge for yourselves. http://www.energon.org.uk

IN THE REPUBLIC OF IRELAND, THE CATHOLIC CHURCH HAS WAY TO MUCH CLOUT IN GOVERMENT AND THE MEDIA. NOW THAT IT IS OUT IN THE OPEN, THE CHURCH CANNOT COMPLY WITH CIVIL LAW OR IT'S OWN CHURCH LAWS THAT THEY WANT THE IRISH CATHOLIC NON RELIGIOUS MEMBERS TO COMPLY WITH. THE ONLY ONE OF THE CHURCH IN IRELAND THAT I GIVE HIGH MARKS TO IS BISHOP MARTIN OF DUBLIN. BUT IT IS TIME THAT THE CATHOLICS OF IRELAND SPEAK OUT TO THE CHURCH AND THE IRISH GOVERMENT CALLING FOR THE SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE. NO PERSON CAN BE ABOVE THE LAW EVEN IN IRELAND. ROME NEEDS ANOTHER POPE JOHN 23d TO TURN THE CHURCH AROUND SINCE THEY GOT THE ALTARS TURN AROUND CORRECTLY.

See also:

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm

To be fair, each religion and ethnic group have their moments/periods of shame. e.g.

See:

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/faithandhealing/2009/05/gods_name--healing_or_faithful.html

I've seen the red-faced Donahue ranting on television about a chocolate statue of Jesus. He reminds me of the klan of "we- can-do-no-wrong-everyone-else-is-guilty" Irish Catholic bigots I worked with in McClean in the late 80%. According to Donahue's logic, only 18% of the abuse was sexual so that makes it OK. Maybe he should ask the 18% victims if it is OK with them that their beautiful little mouths were defiled or they young rectums were torn and bloodied by the "celebate" penises of these "Brothers of Christ"

Until Catholics, like Donahue, start talking about putting a few thousand criminal pedophiles in prison, they have no credibility making excuses for their clergy worldwide and moralizing to the rest of us about abortion and gays. Donahue is symptomatic of delusional Catholic denial and weak excuses for these abominations in Christ's name.

Words - words - words - words - words. That's all that document is, as well as the Attorney General & Grand Jury Reports from Rockville Center NY, New York NY, Portland ME, Manchester NH, and Boston MA.

Overwhelming and damning evidence tabulated into volumes of words, yet no one behind bars?

Where is the action? When do these "alleged" criminals go to jail? When will there be an attorney general with the integrity to do the right thing?

Here we have an exuberance of words, but no justice for the boys, girls and vulnerable adults that committed suicide or survived and remain emotionally troubled.

We can argue all we want and be distracted through the minimizations by the words of Donoghue, with the selective amnesia and lip service by the catholic bishops, but where is the action that brings justice?

"They point to the growing lack of domestic interest in the ecclesiastical career and to its palliative, the cannibalization of preachers from less developed countries, where their leadership and services might be more relevant."

Wow, that *really* takes me back to Catholic school. Put down the thesaurus and speak. Even if you got those words right, no one here would get them. ;)

Some Catholics I have talked with believe that these recent crises (in the US, Brazil, Paraguay and Ireland) will sooner or later result in church reform and modernization. Others, seeing no reason for optimism, expect, instead, a recrudescence of the antiabortion crusade, which the hierarchy may consider increasingly important in order to divert public attention away from the very serious problems affecting the institution as a whole. The pessimists see in the current leaders of their religious organization a burning passion for conformity and accommodation, a likely path toward systemic ossification. They point to the growing lack of domestic interest in the ecclesiastical career and to its palliative, the cannibalization of preachers from less developed countries, where their leadership and services might be more relevant. They finally emphasize the allegedly exclusionary policies adopted by the late papacies, which have enfeebled and isolated clergymen and lay persons not ideologically attuned to the Vatican's ultra-conservative political agenda.

I think that's actually possibly the thing that bothers me *most,* in spite of all the revelations... Whatever else they do, as long as no one says 'sex' it's business as usual...

"But it really troubles me that the documents related to the sexual butchery of the Irish Children and Young People who were inmates in these Catholic "Concentration Camps" are going to be destroyed."

Why not? You *still* erase it, near as I can tell, if no one says it's about *sex* you can blame on some minority, right?

Right?

"Anti-Catholic" My Aunt Hattie!!! I am a Roman Catholic of 62 plus years and there can be no defense for what these MONSTERS In Roman Collars have done to children, young people and vulnerable adults. Worse still, are the Nuns who participated in the Crimes Against GOD's Children? The Nuns, Sister of Mercy, (now known as the, MONSTERS OF MERCY) are the ones who disappoint me most. We should have been able to expect better of the women of our church. But it really troubles me that the documents related to the sexual butchery of the Irish Children and Young People who were inmates in these Catholic "Concentration Camps" are going to be destroyed. This is as bad as bulldozing Auschwitz, or the Ann Frank Shrine. These docements are history; and we all know what happens when people forget past mistakes? They make those same mistakes all over again.

"Another blow to the "Catholics are better" and "Only Catholics have the keys to Heaven" theolgies.

Posted by: CCNL "

Yay! Another mighty blow to a vaporous illusion. Keep swinging. :)

Good article but get to the heart of the matter with details, not abstractions and generalities:

"They were beaten brutally and often - on the soles of the feet, hanging from hooks, on open blisters, with spade handles, chair legs and crucifixes from nuns' belts. They were stripped, belittled, burned with hot pokers, locked in cupboards, bitten, scalded, held under water and set upon by dogs. They slaved in laundries, made rosary beads, were given little food and not educated. Their heads were shaved, their beds packed with nettles and they were forced to kneel and beg "almighty God's pardon, Our Lady's pardon. Pardon, my companions, pardon for the bad example I have shown." The blind and deaf were preyed upon mercilessly. Sexual abuse, assault and rape were endemic." http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25519127-16382,00.html

But, as in the US, bishops and religious orders will pound their chests, never own their true culpability, and get away with everything.

Notice the passive voice apologies: Cardinal Brady acknowledged that "great wrong and hurt were caused to some of the most vulnerable children in our society." By whom I might ask? Or did it just happen somehow? "I am profoundly sorry and deeply ashamed that children suffered in such awful ways," not "we inflicted profound suffering by our criminal negligence and pernicious spirituality."

The Orders are hiring PR firms in a mad rush, and revising "mealy-mouthed" apologies almost daily in response to public pressure (not the Gospel). Follow the stories on http://www.bishop-accountability.org/AbuseTracker/

A MUST-SEE powerful statement by a survivor of what the Ryan Commission in Ireland did and how the religious order responded is at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jHqndf9Kx4

Ireland needs separation of church and state; the US needs federal prosecutors and legislators with enough guts to hold bishops and the Vatican accountable. Unsealing documents in all pending court cases is a great start.

Great analysis. It is comforting to find that the hierarchy in Ireland are taking it much more seriously than William Donohue who minimized not only the brutality but the rape of Irish children.

Another blow to the "Catholics are better" and "Only Catholics have the keys to Heaven" theolgies.

Anyway, Professor:

If you represent an institution which covers up for abusive clergy and abusive politics, ....notably in calling nearly *any* 'pleasure' 'perverse,' ...that's all you're going to see when you look at other people.

Look at it: Defending and excusing and hiding and empowering pederasts, while casting the blame on others who live as responsible adults 'perverts' or 'objectively disordered.' (What's that mean to most Catholics: same thing. Really. )

Priests abuse their power, the Church says, "We'll crack down on 'homosexuals," ... when, of course, priests know *exactly* who won't be believed cause they're 'suspected' of being 'homosexuals...' Especially if you keep trying to associate *queer people* *with* pedophiles, who don't care the sex of their victims.

That's why they *use* that bigotry: it gets them what they want. They even spin it all around into some idea of 'teaching kids about temptation.' Cast themselves as 'protectors' or 'educators' about the very 'perversions' they themselves tell everyone to scorn and fear. )

Frankly, the worst damage isn't, as the Church says, to those who 'lose their faith,' but in fact to those who end up staying and trying to keep believing in what they were told by those who violated their trust, and who also told everyone around that they'd be 'tainted by gayness' (or even insanity, if they had the temerity to be messed-up-by it) if they reported it.

There's a ways to go there, Professor.
But I don't think Catholics are entirely incapable of reexamining base principles and fighting da power. (Down to the Irish again, ennit?)

Gods know I wouldn't be telling you nothing about how I helped get some Christian kids through if I didn't think you could.

'Orthodoxy' and 'Divine commands' are the *abusers'* shields and shadows.

They can't blind you to what they're doing if you don't *let* them.

But maybe that's why I'm trying to help save *you* rather than want to watch some parade of penitent victims weepily kiss a ring as if it were *they* needing 'forgiving.'

Well, Professor, that's better than lately.

Yes, the abuse is systematic and institutional, and yes there is certainly a lot of denial about it. I felt like applauding for you recognizing that. However, of course, other models of Christianity have their own forms of systems of abuse, and simply shifting toward *those* is just embracing the next layer of a certain onion... among this is what we see when 'missionary efforts' start spitting people *back* into what we might call the 'West.' (welcome back to witch-hunts, for one, even in VP candidates)

The nature of some Catholic institutions makes the whole thing even more egregious, of course, but they are a long-standing effect, and not the cause, of the systems of abuse.

Those go deeper, however differently they may be expressed.

In short, all Christians probably would be better-served to examine the 'shadows' of their very own beliefs, rather than displacing them as usual into whatever forms and authorities are in vogue this lifetime or century or regime.

These aren't actually much different if you shut them away or broadcast them on Faux News.

"A vulgarized form of "Catholic Calvinism" presumed that what was human was sinful; that pleasure of any kind was always suspect; that the more one suffers, the holier one becomes."

There's definitely that dynamic: that's why the Church tells Catholics to dismiss others as 'too lazy' or even 'not tough enough' (thus requiring 'toughening') when they disagree or are vulnerable or otherwise mischance to be in or subject to those institutions. Even the notions of listening to them about 'charitable works' always took on either a note of embracing condescension or 'shame and penitence' in those contexts.

There's good in you guys, but it isn't *just* about the packaging, as many people who get hurt in those packages. It's not about 'rebranding,' that'll fix it.

Institutions are things we *do,* even if we get bound up in authorities. Those systems wouldn't be there if they didn't do *something,* but it's what you use them to *do* and the base presumptions you use them *with* that hurt people.

"And, as any viewer of Law and Order: Special Victims Unit will tell you, the line between inflicting pain and perverse sexual pleasure is a thin one."

Well, I wouldn't go watching that show to get your ideas about humanity, either. I can't help but notice they play it a lot in the South, probably cause it reinforces a lot of ideas some find convenient about the North.

(It's also just hard to make a compelling detective show these days, what with the Internet and cell phones, so they go for splash and dash )

But if you're gonna watch that show, learn the difference between a 'pedophile' and a 'pederast?' And speak it?

I