Rather than, "our sisters are regal in serving the Church", I fear some - the unfaithful ones - are serving themselves and leading others astray.

Apparently some of our modern brides of Christ are not adhering to the good old-fashioned Stepford wife role model so strongly advocated by the Vatican and elsewhere.

There are sufficient numbers of Papal automatons in the Church without forcing the best and brightest into that worn-out mold, one would think.

The most creative and energetic women to be found in religious orders are the very ones most likely to be caught thinking for themselves - and this is anathema to Rome.

Time to resurrect the Grand Inquisitor.......

Liberal nuns often seem like pacifists who join the army and then complain about the guns and push-ups.

There are lots of nuns who take their vows seriously and who wholeheartedly embrace the traditional role -- without agitating for change or causing trouble.

And then there are the liberals who sneak in under false pretenses and try to "reform" things, and who seem to be ready to throw a tantrum because the Vatican is insisting that nuns actually follow the rules and conform to Catholic doctrine.

fr archdukefranz:

>...Our pastor asked them to leave and brought in an order who were proud to be religious sisters....

Your "pastor" should have been IMMEDIATELY fired, as it is clear that the nuns were more with-it than he.

Actually, the nuns are the pawns, the priests are the queens.

Since most of Stevens Arroyo's columns seem to be more Rorschach tests for non Catholics to lecture the Church than as springboards for actual discussion of actual problems facing actual Uniate Catholics, pointing out that it is in many cases the various orders of women religious who are most active in living the Gospel out in the community who most nervous about just what these visitations are actually looking for, or at, is probably a waste of time.

Still, for those of us who still accept that the Church is the Living Body of Christ, with the Pope as its head, recognizing that some (paranoid) suspicion from Rome has attached itself to some of America's most active, and also fastest growing, communities of women is cause for alarm. It doesn't appear that the teaching orders are particularly under suspicion, but rather the service communities, the ones out living the beatitudes in public, bearing witness to the Apostolic admonitions to preach the Gospel by living the Gospel, that are facing extraordinary Visitations. I do know that several of the Poor Clare communities that serve the OHKYIN area are particularly nervous.

If the best way to preach Jesus is to live his teachings in ways that people can see you living the Gospels, to pick on the communities that stay in the inner cities and try to do the Corporal Works of Mercy seems to me to be counter productive to the mission of every Catholic to preach Jesus in our daily lives.

For all of the good work done by the teaching orders around the world, the Religious Order that, currently, seemed to have fired the most interest in the Works of the Church was founded by a woman who was doing exactly what the conservatives seem most to dislike.

Mother Theresa was basically out of her community and out of her habit when, with the permission of her previous order she went into the slums of Calcutta and began finding the abandoned old women of the city and taking them to just a slightly more comfortable place to die. Those members of Religious Orders dedicated to service who try that in this country seem to get an inordinate degree of scrutiny from the Men who are the visible authority in the Church.

Catholics of all Rites and persuasions have good reason to be watchful when conservatives seek to bend authentic expressions of the Spirit to the old established, cloistered and cloaked ways of the contemplative orders. We do need St Teresa Benedica of the Cross, but we probably need Mother Teresa of Calcutta more in these terrible days.

St. Teresa of Avila had the same problems with the Papal hierarchy that various spiritual orders of nuns are having today -some things never change, even for the sainted. Men must have the last word.

One wonders if gender follows the soul even to heaven - but then, I've heard tell the soul has distinctly feminine qualities.

Perhaps Mother Mary will greet us at the gate after all.......

I bet the Vatican is kicking itself for not coming up with the idea of the burka. It would have been much easier to control the women that way.

By the way, I am RC. It's just that I was female long before I was Catholic.

JMiachael12 writes:
"Look, the RCC is the only Church in the West that acts like it has a real message from God and can't tamper with it to please the political/moral fashions of the moment."
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That's rather an interesting statement, since the RCC is one of the few churches that believes in the infallibility of apostolic succession.

What about the conservatives who parrot what their religious leaders tell them, without thinking?

Amen, PaulC2. It is refreshing to see someone who understands. What I see most often on these topics is this simple syllogism: "Modern American liberal secularism is the only doctrine allowed to exist, since the Church does not abide by or promote this ideology, it should not be allowed to exist." If a liberal (in the classic sense) education taught me anything (and that includes my Catholic education), it is that "what's happening now" is not as it has always been, nor will always be, and should not be assumed to be the best despite what the majority believes. Question the status quo, and the status quo in our times in liberal secularist thinking. One on my favorite thinkers, Dr. Samuel Johnson, once said: "In my youth, I was lax talker against religion. My problem was that I did not think against it." Most of the comments on this board demonstrate the problem that Dr. Johnson observed long ago: lax talking, no deep thinking. It is sad that Stevens-Arroyo is merely a parrot for the liberal positions: they talk, he repeats.
An important phenomenon that he ignores is that the orders such as the School Sisters of Notre Dame, who gave up the habit decades ago, are falling in numbers. Orders with more a traditional rule, including habits, are growing. Vatican II's pendulum swung as far to left as it was going to go--the energy of its left-ward momentum is being exhausted, and the swing back to tradition is happening despite all protestations. Folks like Stevens-Arroyo want to blame it one old men in Rome. The reality they do not want to face is that it started at a much more grassroots level, the rank-and-file who thought that Vatican II and its liberal flank were emptying the Church of real traditions and foundations.

I spent 8 years in a Catholic convent boarding school.

When I failed a religion test Sr. Mary Ellen pounded her fist on my desk and screamed "The church is NOT a democracy". A lightbulb went on in my head. I finally got it. My classmates did too, I could tell by the shock on their faces. The shame of failing that test & her screaming at me in front of everyone left its mark. I will never forget the difference between church laws and state laws again. (before, I had thought divorced people had to go to jail and that was the big shame of divorce)

Which is why it galls me that the church has become so wrapped up in the state and vice versa. Leave the nuns and pope alone. They live in their own little world and their rules do not affect anyone but them.

My favorite nun is Meryl Streep in "Doubt". She is intelligent, shrewd, takes risks, and finally nails that pedophile priest; of course, the bishop promotes him!

"The church has two roles: to teach the truths about salvation passed down by the Apostles and to administer the life giving sacraments to the faithful."

So, what you're saying then, PaulC2, is that the church should not be involved in politics, public policy, or social controversy?

I couldn't agree more. And coming from someone who is clearly a devout Catholic, this pronouncement is particularly cogent.

Now if you could just persuade the Vatican...

It seems to me that most of the people commenting here no little or nothing of the issues being discussed. In many ways, this is just a forum for Catholic hatred. And Professor Stevens-Arroyo's columns are consistently more about liberal politics than they are about being Catholic as well.

For those that do care about what is happening in the Catholic Church, there are other, better forums.

The Catholic Church has an obligation to make sure that the doctrines it was entrusted with are corretly taught to the faithful, the same doctrines passed down by Christ through the Apostles. These investigations are fulfilling that obligation. It is not an attack on women religious. In fact, as Dr. S-A notes, there are groups of women religious that are not being investigated. This investigation is on a specific group of women religious that may or may not be acting against Catholic doctrine. That answer will be the result of the investigation.

I will leave one last message to those that bash the Catholic church for failing to adjust with the times. This would be against the Church is all about. The church has two roles: to teach the truths about salvation passed down by the Apostles and to administer the life giving sacraments to the faithful. These roles have not changed in 2000 years, nor has the truth the chruch teaches. It is timeless. You are of course free to pursue the latest fad, and in "On Faith" that is mostly secularism, but keep in mind that the latest fad does not change the eternal truths that will lead the faithful to heaven.

The Church and other organizations tend to become more conservative when times are changing. Under Pope Pius IX, in the late 1800's, the Church was quite reactionary and found fault in everything from liberal education to trains! Instead of halting the trend toward secularism in Europe, the reactive response seemed to hasten it.

The present Pope does have a traditionalist streak; I would not yet call him a reactionary. However, I wish his approach were more flexible. He does seem rather quick to find fault with women, gays, and children who read Harry Potter (!). When he is ready to teach morality to middle aged white Republican men in the US, then I will be interested in what he says. Picking on the excluded and weak is not particularly Christian.

And who was it that show that women can be raised up from the gutter as a HORRER to SAINTHOOD by putting MARY MADELINE under this FALSE lable? WHY IT WAS POPE GREG THE GREAT. I don't think ROMA knows AMERICAN WOMEN very well but AMERICAN WOMEN are wakeing up ROMA leadership.

Interesting how many Catholic men long for the days when nuns wore long dresses - but, wait! The Pope, cardinals, bishops and priests wear long dresses. So which is it- do you or don't you want nuns to be like male clergy?

The nuns I know are feeding the poor, healing the sick, tending to the aged, living a life Jesus would recognize.

What do you think Jesus would say about the Pope and cardinals in their gold and scarlet robes living in palaces?

The more we get away from John XXIII the more illogical the church is becoming. If it was left to the Vatican Catholic Schools would be teaching the World is flat. Nuns were and are Catholic education. I was taught Platcial Techtonics in the 8th grade, 1954, 9 years before Ohio State University had it on it's curriculleum. These old men need to collect their retirement and let a few competant nuns run the church. Didn't hear of any NUN's molesting kids, only hugging, loving and educating them. It may have been tough love sometimes but it was good for all of us.

Well, let's just pray to the imaginary cloud daddy that this is another nail in the coffin of organized religion (superstition), not just the catholics.
This is the information age; no need to be misinformed by ancient fiction!
The RCC amassed an estimated one trillion dollars in assets by selling an invisible product for two millenia. They own huge swats of land, are running large businesses like Generali and even own part of the Beretta gun factory!
Time to move on towards reason and science and leave this scam behind!!

Whatever the issues are, they can hardly be a matter of habit, which is a superficial yardstick at best.

I also am quite sure that women religious's achievements can be an issue.

I'd thought JPII had put to rest the idea that women were constrained from doing anything in the church save being ordained--a position that requires service rather than power; a position that is a sign of Jesus--his maleness included.

More power for women religious? Holy Smokes! The power the weild in the Church is already strong and exceptional. Which of us brougyht up by the women religious don't already know that in our gut (and rapped knuckles)?

By the way, a good majority of posts below demonstrate the spectrum of Anti-Catholicism that is alive and well in the US. You have the leftest loonies and Nativist Protestants who would love to burn a cross and hang some clergy. What strange bedfellows hate produces!

Posted by: Cthulhu3 | August 28, 2009 11:12 AM

-----------------------------------------

Is it a bias to be against irrational superstition?

Is it bias to be against believing believing in things when there is no one shred of evidence?

I am amazed at the hatred spewing forth from these posts. Look, the RCC is the only Church in the West that acts like it has a real message from God and can't tamper with it to please the political/moral fashions of the moment. Christ reveals God to us; he used language of the day--Father, Son, Holy Spirit, etc.--to help us understand the inner life of God. For 2000 years, people, the RCC has taught that God in himself is totally BEYOND what we can know or imagine. Now, here's the tough pt: if God chose, as we believe he did, to reveal himself in history, what would that look like? Play/make up your own spirituality/morality like so many faiths today? Or: A message of truth that is Love itself, making real demands on us, asking us not to make idols into our sexual drives, our desires for power?

The choice is fairly obvious.

In regard to the sins of the Clegy, well, the RCC catechism quotes St. John Chrysostum here: "The road to hell is paved with the skulls of priests."

I don't think that's a pass, collect $200 and move on.

No one gets off easy. We all need mercy.

For those who are full of hate, look into the mirror. It's not pretty.

I am glad you clarified the purpose of this investigation. By doing so, you hopefully quashed some wild rumors concerning this affair. First, that the hardworking American nuns would have to replace their traditional penguin-like habits with a contemporary uniform, resembling the burka. Second, the investigation would be informed by current negotiations between Catholic and Islamic leaders to both halt the march toward secularization and to contain the growing degree of participation of women in decision making, allegedly anathema to conservative clerics from most organized religions.

I went through 12 years of Catholic schools, and was half-raised by nuns. I long ago left Catholism behind me, to the extent that one is able to leave Catholism behind (see the comment about praying for aborted fetuses for one example of WHY). However, I will say that nuns represent the "best of" Catholicism. They (unlike priests) take a vow of poverty, and many work incredibly hard in schools, in hospitals, and with the poor without ever laying eyes on a paycheck. They devote their lives to doing good, expecting nothing in return but respect for their person and (HORRORS) a chance to express their opinion. Whether you believe in the doctrine or not, nuns and other Religious women deserve respect and honor. And although I don't see eye-to-eye with the Pope on many matters, I would NEVER denigrate the moral and spiritual belief system of another, as many here have chosen to do. No matter what you call God, that's just plain wrong. Shame on you!

I don't think cthulhu3 has got it quite right. Said comments are not specifically anti-Catholicism, but rather a specific form of a growing anti-religious sentiment that harbors the same negativity for essentially all forms of the three major Abrahamic religions. The comments are absolutely predictable, any time a religious authority does something that is hypocritical or appears to lack common sense.

I'm sympathetic to the feeling that religions have lost their way. We're reading of power struggles within Catholicism (and I *love* Cardinal O'Connor's paranoid formulation "relentless pursuit of power" - LOL), but where does Jesus engage in political machination?

Quite often, I think the problem with organized religion is not so much the religion, but rather the organization. It's too complicated, too many people to try to keep happy, whereas faith is simple.

It's a struggle to throw out the bathwater (institutional politics) while keeping the baby (faith). I think leftwing critics of religion are wrong to chuck it all out, while conservative adherents are also foolish to be blind to the excesses, failures and corruption of modern religious groups.

Who cares what an organization that promotes superstition has to say about anything?

The people that care or follow these religions are generally superstitions themselves.

Women are what keep the Church going. Men may be in charge, but without the women the Church would cease to function.
Also, I think Jesus was all about "social justice". We need more social justice in the world, not less.
Rules and laws were the domain of the Pharisees. Theirs was an empty faith, and the same is true for a church that judges the faithful only by their adherence to the rules and regulations.
My outlook and the way I live my life is totally shaped by my Catholic upbringing, and I am proud to call myself a liberal Catholic who is actively working for a more just society, which includes seeking a voice for women in the Catholic Church.

CTHULHU3 - good analogy of post-modern moral relativism. Thank you! :)

its all hokus/pokus, a total scam this religious bs. it poisons everyone it touches!!

once again, we witness the hammer from Rome threatening an order of simple women carrying out God's work.
but, this is nothing new or even surprising; all established religious traditions, from time immemorial, have practised a theology based on tribal patriarchy, coupled with an uncompromising chauvanist attitude in their religious readings.
one way to solve this dilemma is for spiritual women to establish their own church to carry out God's will and teachings as they interpret it.
zazizi

Just another reason why I have serious problems with the political entity known as the Catholic church. I always have faith, and I occasionally have religion, but my moments of religious participation become less and less frequent as the church continues to reveal itself as repressive, unreasonable and frankly, unchristian.

By the way, a good majority of posts below demonstrate the spectrum of Anti-Catholicism that is alive and well in the US. You have the leftest loonies and Nativist Protestants who would love to burn a cross and hang some clergy. What strange bedfellows hate produces!

Well, the Vatican is trying to squelch any threat to it's own power.

For all those who want to beat the catholic church over the head with the bible - a quick history lesson: in the 4th century at the Council of Constantinople the catholic church decided which books were canonical or not.

When an Augustine Priest named Martin Luther decided to admend the bible he went back to the Canon from the Council of Jerusalem Rabbis of 90 AD and cut 6 or 7 books from the old testament based on that Canon - even though it was clear that Jesus and the Jews of His time held those texts sacred.

You can not beat the Catholic church over the head with the books they themselves edited. You can side with the rabbis and Luther or with Jesus about the 6 or 7 books cut out - I always side with Jesus.

CarolBG wrote: "It is not what it once was and is suffering a slow, but steady decline. If the Church does not soon recognize the need to adapt to the needs of its congregation, it will be its demise."

CarolBG, you obviously do not read your news, even local to the Post's coverage. A Maryland-based order of Anglo-Episcopal Sisters and their minister are leaving the Episcopal Church and Anglican Communion to become Catholic. The Church is growing in China, Southeast Asia, and Africa, and the number of vocations from those areas is also growing. Your position is the same old hackneyed one that we hear every day: If the Church would only adopt and parrot the secular morass of modern morality, it would not be in decline. What a brilliant idea? In fact, if crime-ridden inner city neighborhoods would only embrace the drug culture and the exploitation of youth by drugs, they could live in peace with the gangs, dealers, and pushers. What a crock!

I completely agree with others: nothing more than another modern-day religious witch hunt.

The church tolerated and protected pedophile priests. They hid it and allowed the sexual abuse of children to continue for decades while they shifted priests around from one church to another.

But we certainly can't have strong, powerful women in the world... especially in the Catholic church.

Utter hypocrisy. One more system of white male dominance and corruption crumbling-- now, in the church.

The Catholic Church has resisted mightily adaptation to a changing culture. It is not what it once was and is suffering a slow, but steady decline. If the Church does not soon recognize the need to adapt to the needs of its congregation, it will be its demise.

If I still prayed, I'd offer up a Novena for the termination of the RCC and all other superstitious institutions. Instead, I'll just light a candle.
Many are cold...but few are frozen, eh?

Women should run, not walk away from the Catholic church. I believe in God. Religion is a different sort of beast. Men see what they want to see and what they see is a tool to keep women "in their place."

Posted by: pgr88
The comments on this blog are worthless. Many are disgusting and nearly all are clearly from people who know nothing about the Church.
---------------------------
Then don't read it.

Try reading your Bible instead of Catholic propoganda. Reading the New Testament with a good commentary is enough to cure any Catholic.

Pearls to Swine, if you are reading this, what does that make you?

Mr. Stevens-Arroyo and the heterodox religious orders are simply the manifestations of a "spirit of Vatican II" that has no basis in the orthodox teaching of the Council. The fact that a Vatican investigation of the heterodox religious orders is even called for speaks to the "de facto" schism that has already occurred in American Catholicsm. Of course our Holy Father is under a heavy obligation to Our Lord to do everything in his power to prevent the "de facto" from becoming "de jure", ut unum sint!

Nothing suprising here. The pack of child molesters headed by the Nazi want women to keep in thier place.

The Catholic leadership should pray that there isn't a God, because if there is half of them will rot in hell for what they have done and the other half for standing by and watching.

I don't understand how Catholics can stand by and watch their money support an institution that facilitates child abuse and clearly hates women.

Geneac:

Oh, these men who used their position of authority to sexually assault children received "tough love" from their fellow priests behind closed doors -- priests who previously had done their best to conceal these crimes committed by their "brothers"? Well, I'm relieved to know they were punished so harshly.

Of course, non-priests who are not shielded by the worldly power of the RCC, rightly go to jail for decades for such crimes. Furthermore, if an organization is shown to foster and condone a pattern of criminal activity, it is prosecuted under RICO.

The comments on this blog are worthless. Many are disgusting and nearly all are clearly from people who know nothing about the Church. Stevens-Arroyo, if you are a Catholic, why do you cast your pearls before swine?

There is something ironic about a Catholic cardinal accusing someone of "a relentless pursuit of power, power sought at the expense of faith." Ths, of course, is what the leaders of the Roman Catholic religion have done for centuries. When their power is challenged, they hold an inquisition.

To all you nuns, Christianity beckons. Leave the Roman Catholic religion behind and rejoice in the true Gospel. Come know the true Jesus who, among all the people on earth, chose to appear first after His resurrection to a woman and then sent her off to tell the men that He was alive.

You don't a Pope to grant salvation to you. Jesus Himself is the author of your salvation. Believe in Him.

The ignorance of most people concerning the Catholic Church is based on the the media. The media only reports those things that are bad about the church. It isn't news to report about the millions who learned from the christian teachings of the Catholic church how to live a fruitful, peaceful, and benevolent life. The media doesn't report on the millions of dollars spent to feed the poor, bring healthcare to the sick, and tend to the dying. Nor does the media report on the good work done by Catholic hospitals and universities throughout the world. No, only the bad excesses of the Catholic church are worthy of news. I understand that if that is all you knew about the Catholic church you would have a very bad idea. While I am a lapsed Catholic, the church taught me to pray and how to treat my fellow man (and woman) and I will die a Catholic.

If you could get rid of all the men in the Church, maybe it could become a positive force in the world. If you could.

If I still prayed, I would offer a Novena for the termination of the RCC and every other superstitious institution. Perhaps I'll just light a candle, eh?
Many are cold... but few are frozen.

Women are certainly second-class citizens in the Catholic Church, which is just one of several reasons why I left decades ago and don't miss it.

If the Church refuses to allow female and married clergy, they deserve all the problems they are getting.

Whoopee - a modern day Inquisition with the investigated parties paying for it! No Inquisition for the pedophile priests - they just are quietly shuffled off to a new parish with the parisioners knowing nothing about their histories.

Does anyone see a double-standard here? Especially since the nuns involved have done nothing against the laws of man or God, but have devoted their lives to helping others.

BUT - the men in robes have to put these women in "their place" - and that place may be empty soon, if the hierarchy of the church does not stop its ridiculous Inquisition.

Fashionist,

There are several unfortunate confusions and assumptions in your statement:

A. You do not know what kind of tough love individual priests received from their superiors in private, in the confines of their parishes and diocese before Pope Benedict made our pedophilia problem an institutional priority.

B. Why are you assuming that this is a gender issue, when, in your ignorance, you ignore the investigations into seminaries (= schools for the formation of MALE religious) that was completed in the last 18 months through a directive of the Vatican?

C. Are you considering that this directive by the Vatican could be a result of the lessons learned from the trifles of the pedophilia problem in the church applied to a different problem i.e. the Church has learned from her past?

D. And if you are in fact a "DC Mom" as your moniker indicates, do you instruct your children with the same philosophy? "We didn't address the older problem with vigor, so any addressing of current or future problems can not be justified." Odd way to handle things.

"... true leadership is obtained through true humility..." So why are the arrogant males of the catholic church getting their knickers in a twist, if not because of their concern for loss of EARTHLY power?

Sheri S. Tepper addresses the repression of women in her sci-fi novel, "Gibbon's Decline and Fall." One of the main characters is a nun.

To the posters who argue that women should have more humility, as God requires humility of us all--your argument is circular. In that case, male priests should have enough humility to reject their superior status and include women as equals.

GENEAEC says:
"..the Roman Catholic religion has adapted in order to weather many storms in its personal past, as well as flourished under the scrutiny and persecution of the secular world."

The church adapts today, and in many places flourishes under the scrutiny and persecution of some in the clergy.

But the traditionalists do have a point about how modernity has weakened the church. If they could bring back the rack, they would have fewer of these uppity women who need to be suppressed to save their souls.

"I have had a fair amount of exposure to both "traditional" and "modern" women religious and second Archdukefranz's comments - I am eager to see these ministries who have "lost their way" receive a little tough love from Rome. It is long overdue. All religious, men and women are in the hearts and prayers of the church militant."

Dear GENEAEC

The problem I have with your statement is that the "ministries that lost their way" during the pedophilia scandal NEVER received tough love. Why are women under a microscope when men who hurt the Church is horrible ways were never reprimanded?

Hmmm.... Is it me, or is Rome methodically taking down all the changes made under the Second Vatican Council? I have been seeing women wearing mantillas, priests facing the tabernacle during Mass, more and more Latin incorporated in Masses, sometimes Masses entirely in Latin... Is this happening only in the Arlington Diocese? Is the rest of America going to the 1940's, too?

Archdukefranz said: "Fortunately, most of these dissenting orders are rapidly aging and in a few years most of them will be completely gone. This is part of the cycle of the Church -- orders that have lost their way fade away and are replace by new faithful orders."

Question: If this is true, then why bother with the cost, upset and time of an investigation? Why not just wait "a few years" for nature to take its course?

Answer: Archduke franz confuses age with weakness. The Vatican doesn't.

The men in dresses fear these "rapidly aging" "dissenting orders" because they correctly sense their own monopoly on power slipping away. It will take more than a few years, but this is part of the cycle of the Church -- ideas that have lost their way fade away.

"Rome objected to women using the word 'leadership" in the title, contending that such a word conferred undue authority on the sisters and robbed male clerics and bishops of "divinely ordained powers.' "

The ayatollahs of the Catholic Church are simply falling back in line with their brethren in the Taliban.

This entire post by Mr. Stevens-Arroyo betrays both his ignorance about and his faithlessness in the workings of the Catholic church.

"Simply put, the current U.S. Catholic Church could not function today without these religious women who are involved in active apostolates."

As a 2000-year-old institution that has survived and thrived throughout the centuries, the Roman Catholic religion has adapted in order to weather many storms in its personal past, as well as flourished under the scrutiny and persecution of the secular world. Roman Catholicicism would morph and modify itsself to deal with this challenge *if* this hyperbolic statement about losing all these female religious were to come to fruition.

Yes, female religious provide many services and provide leadership in their ministries, however, true leadership is obtained through true humility, and does not need to be a sticking point of a semantics debate over a title; Rome was right to discourage the use of the word and the sisters who fought for it missed the point.

"The pope -- can we consider him Catholicism's "king"? -- will put the church at an impossible disadvantage if the investigation makes us lose the ministries of these dedicated women."

No, we may not consider the Pope the Catholic king. This statement makes me wonder if the author has ever been to a Catholic Mass considering "Christ the King" is the only way in which we are exposed to the concept of kingship, and we as Catholics do not operate in an earth-bound "kingdom." The analogy is poor, as is the entire "article" or op/ed. Our Mother Church would never arbitrarily shut down an entire branch, shall we say, of women religious, but institute corrective changes and modification revealed to our true church leaders through prayer and tradition and a devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus. The inane statements of Mr. Stevens-Arroyo assure me that he is writing as liberal-media-educated outsider to the Catholic faith, and has had no inside experience as to the majestic vision of the Church.

I have had a fair amount of exposure to both "traditional" and "modern" women religious and second Archdukefranz's comments - I am eager to see these ministries who have "lost their way" receive a little tough love from Rome. It is long overdue. All religious, men and women are in the hearts and prayers of the church militant.

"I remember loving him but realizing what he meant was: Thank God I was a girl and my place in his church was to be his maid and servant. No Thanks! I would have really loved becoming a priest! No place for me in his God's church."

If you actually read the Bible, you would see that God wants us all to be his maid.

"Nothing new here - just the Vatican imposing it's superordinate male authority, lest anyone e.g. women, forget their (subordinate) place in the scheme of things."

Since when has the Church treated women as "subordinate"? The Church has always stated that the highest goal of anyone is to live as Christ lived. To that end, the Church has recognized Saints since its founding. Saints are people who have been met a standard that the Church uses to measure the likelyhood that a person has come as close as any sinful person can to have lived as Christ lived, and guess what? The Church has been recognizing women Saints for hundreds of years! Much longer than these johnny come lately Christians that claim to be better for women because women can become priests or whatever these religions want to call their religious leaders. What a lot of people, including Catholics, don't understand is that a Saint is a much higher honor to recieve than becoming a Pope! I hear these complaints about how women can't be priests, they can't rise to high levels of power in the Church, etc. (Nancy Pelosi famously said that the reason she chose politics over becoming a nun was because she would not have had power, she wanted to be a priest and eventually Pope and have power.) and that is the absolute WRONG view to take. Anyone going into the priesthood looking to become Pope or attain some amount of power, is going into the priesthood with the wrong attitude, it should be to serve others and serve Christ, regardless of whether the priest is a man or a woman. People who think that the priesthood is the path to power in the Church really don't understand what Christ wanted. They ignorned his warning: "He who wants greatness, must serve his brothers." "To become the greatest among you, you must become the least among you." If the Pope declared tomorrow that women can be priests and can even become Popes, that's fine with me, let women be in positions of power. However, they will be focusing on the wrong goal, power is not the ultimate goal, to go to heaven and be counted among saved is the ultimate goal and those who are declared Saints are recognized by the Church as being in the best position to have actually attained that goal and in that case, women have been recognized and revered by the Church for attaining that goal.

I was a strange kid in the early 60's -I liked the nuns and they liked me. Albeit, I was a cross-eyed, bucktoothed kid, ripe 'nun-material' LOL I was also curious, my questions often sent me to Mother Superior, who'd send me to the priest.

The Irish priest was amused by my questions, which mainly revolved around a million different scenarios of unbaptized babies dying and going to Limbo. Father and I would sit opposite each other, in rich leather chairs.

He'd patiently listen and repeat the babies twisted fate "No, if the baby dies just before the drop of baptismal water hits its head, it will still go to Limbo and not heaven. But, not to worry Limbo was an okay place. Except yes, the mommy goes to heaven and has to wait for the second coming to see her baby again."

An elderly, near-crippled nun would quietly limp in carrying an elaborate, silver tea set with cookies. Father often said, "I thank God on bended knees that you were born a girl! You might have become a Jesuit and taken down the whole church. He would chuckle at his little joke.

I remember loving him but realizing what he meant was: Thank God I was a girl and my place in his church was to be his maid and servant. No Thanks! I would have really loved becoming a priest! No place for me in his God's church.

As a Catholic, I have been stunned, and exhilarated, by the change in the concept of "nun" from my childhood. It countless places throughout the nation and the world, these women have given outstanding examples of Christianity in action. Perhaps one source of annoyance is the loss of cheap labor for the collapsing parochial school system. In my home town of Syracuse, the schools which were a part of the fabric of our lives are largely gone, replaced by much larger (and probably better) centralized schools with large numbers of lay teachers. In my current hometown, New York City, many schools are being closed and consolidated.

But the new nuns have given their lives to gospel of love. They are activists involved in the world. They deal with issues of care for immigrants and dehumanizing aspects of corporate power. The Church remains the most direct route back to the Preacher between the Seas. But the episcopate seems concentrated on preserving its male dominated power rather than surrendering to the message of the Gospel as lived by these women.

For His time, Christ was a radical feminist. Incidents in the Gospel such as the story of Mary and Martha or the Samaritan woman at well demonstrate an equality of women in religious matters that was rare in Jewish culture at that time. Prevailing attitudes about the role of women in some orthodox Jewish communities today, as well in some Moslem sects (the most extreme being the Taliban) are a reflection of the attitudes towards women at Christ’s time and place. Even today, the wife is sometimes described as “olive tree” growing quietly in a corner in some Jewish liturgy.

I once remarked to a priest, that I though the greatest saint since the time of the Apostles was St. Francis. Hr replied that "Some of us think he was the only saint." Maybe we should have included St. Clare. Our bad.

The Benedictine sisters gave me a wonderful education from first grade through twelfth grade. I had only one lay teacher during that time, my art teacher at Cathedral Prep (Erie, PA). Nothing _really_ scandalous or medieval ever occurred. Children who misbehaved were under total control while in school; they did not misbehave. Children who strongly attempted to abide by the rules were amply rewarded with an excellent education and were enabled to "lift themselves by their own bootstraps" from disenfranchising poverty and bad family life to the highest places in modern society.

The order that taught me from 1947 through 1961 is adding to their numbers exponentially, flourishing amidst all the negative effects of modern right-wing religious perversions and of modern anti-religious secularism. The ones I know are wonderful, powerful, influential movers and shakers. They deserve far more affirmation and tribute than they have been getting.

The male-dominated Roman Catholic Church should not subject these selfless women to fear-engendering investigation and prohibit their rights to free speech, especially not in the United States. If this continues, the institutional Church will be punished by a force far more powerful than imagined by the collective control-addicted men who now manage it.

The application of such labels as "conservative" to the Pope and his minions when the term has been so bastardized by American weapons of mass deception confuses the issue even more.

We have not been listening to the female voice as we should.

Hmmm, Archdukefranz noted, "dissenting orders are rapidly aging and in few years most of them will be completely gone".

He/she should have said, all orders of sisters in the USA are rapidly aging in few years there will be no nuns.

And why? The Catholics in the pews are starting to see the real Christianity:

To wit: (for those eyes that have not seen)

Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

For added "pizzazz", Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

Current crises:

Pedophiliac priests, atonement theology and original sin!!!!

Stevens-Arroyo leaves out a key point: The LCRW members under investigation voluntarily placed themselves under the direct rule of Rome when they requested that Rome approve their statues and constitutions. Hence, the investigations are obligatory on the part of the Vatican given the mutual promises made by the Vatican and the sisters' religious orders when those orders applied for and received papal approbation for their organizations.

I think the Church, at least many of the clergy Bishops Priests and Pope are more interested in preserving the status quo, their own power, than in serving the needs of the laity and of the world. If only people would Love one another, those words mean more to Christ than any other, yet those in Rome seem to be more interested in what clothes Nuns wear who is on the Altar and when and what words are spoken at such and such a time, for instance,for all or for the many, I think that Christ died for all and of course,He did, can an infinite sacrifice be less? This is what Christ meant when He said strain out the knat and swollow the camel, and the Church seems intent on doing just such as this. Social justice, a very very important aspect of Love.

DO NOT THE WOMEN KNOW THAT ROMA IS A ALL OLD BOYS CLUB?

Nothing new here - just the Vatican imposing it's superordinate male authority, lest anyone e.g. women, forget their (subordinate) place in the scheme of things. Did God really create hierarchies?
What a great idea for those on top.

Dedicated acts of charity and mercy, something at which nuns excel as their lifework, are apparently distracting their attention - away from the authority of their particular master of the universe in Rome ..... and we can't have that.

Once the 'rebellious' nuns and sisters of liberal persuasion are brought back in line and have formally and most humbly renewed their declaration of allegience to Rome, this will all blow over. It's happened before, when women in the Church temporarily forget their place.

Mr. Stevens-Arroyo's linked background resources are a little one-sided - they are primarily sources inclined to be critical of the apostolic visitation and LCWR investigation. Anyone interested in the apostolic visitation, which incidentally is being supervised by an American woman religious, should also visit its website at apostolicvisitation.org.

Why does Stevens-Arroyo describe the notion "that religious women have equaled male clergy in commitment and education" as a "new problem"? It's not at all clear that this is new, and there is no reason at all to conclude that it would be a problem for Rome in any event, or that it explains the apostolic visitation.

As for the rest of the piece, it assumes the answers to several important questions that Rome would seem solely competent to evaluate.

The reason for the investigation is simple. Most of the orders of religious sisters have lost their way -- no habits, no communal life, open and widespread dissent from the teachings of the Church.
I attended a Catholic school in Upstate NY. In 1976, the order of nuns teaching at my school lost their way. In a matter of months they all removed their habits, none wanted to live in the convent and apprently many no longer wanted to teach. They all wanted to engage in "social justice". Our pastor asked them to leave and brought in an order who were proud to be religious sisters.

Of couse the Council of Major Superiors of Women Religious is not being investigated -- they actually believe and follow the teachings of the Church.

Fortunately, most of these dissenting orders are rapidly aging and in a few years most of them will be completely gone. This is part of the cycle of the Church -- orders that have lost their way fade away and are replace by new faithful orders.