Hi, i am currently doing year twelve in Australia. And i am Australian and a Christian. Recently i got an assignment in enlish to act as a delagate at a United Nations Youth Form, on social Justice and Human rights. While i was researching religious presecution i found this article. And i am now doing discrimination against Muslims. I think that in our modern society people shouldnt be so sterotypical and bascially stuip. Every group wheater or not a religious group has people in them that dont do the right thing. But does that really mean we must condem the whole group? Are humans really that stuip to think...ow one Muslim did a terroist act, so all Muslims must be terriost. I am only 17 and even i can see the blind stupidity in that way of thinking. Every human has the right to thier basic human rights, so why are we isolating Muslims from thiers? Strip off religion, race, etc...and you will find that we are ALL human beings, so why are we not all being treated equally.I no that my assignment wount have a big impact on this issue, but i hope that i can atleast change the minds of my classmates. I have great respect for you all that are fighting for your religion, just no that there are people out ther, non-muslims that can see whats truly happening and are on your side.

Hi, I am a highschool student, and I was researching for artciles based on the discrimination that Muslims have, because of ONE single incident. I read your "blog" and all I have to say is, you are absolutely right. I would comment more on this topic, but it gets me very upset just thinking about it. I just want to say that what you had to say is very true, and Inshallah your unborn child will not have to go through anything like that; Inshallah none of us will. Salaam:)

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Every great leader and righteous person had experienced and will experience hatred and violence. We Muslims shall go through that in order to experience what our beloved Prophets (who are also Muslim) have gone through. The seeds of hatred began with satan (Iblees) and shall be here 'till the day of Judgement. It's up to us to put up a good fight...And Allah will be the judge and protector of the righteous! Your son, Eboo, will insha'Allah be one of the Righteous!

Salaams,
I just wanted to say that your article is very well written and you made some great points!

Notification relating the comment of 28 of August 2007. I was definitively not the author of this article. I am not professor in Law, but consultant in genocide studies, and I've never dealed with judicial cases with the city of bloominghton. Additionnally, I've never tempted to live in U.S and my sisters as well.

However, I encourage peole to struggle against discrimination mecanism and promote dignity for everyone.
Regards,
Jamila Afkir

I am a French Muslim woman from Morocco, and have experienced similar reprisals in the United States. My sisters and I were refused entry to Texas because we were considered "suspicious persons". However, this treatment transcends our people and affects others, specifically Jewish people. I am a professor of law and have been studying three parallel cases, two pending in the Southern District of Indiana and one decided in the Indiana Supreme Court:

Leonard's Linen Services v. City of Bloomington
Patinkin v. City of Bloomington
Dvorak v. City of Bloomington

In the first two cases, we learn that a town in Southern Indiana has a history of discriminating against Jewish landowners. In the former case, a demolition permit was denied because it was discovered the buyer was a Jewish person. In the latter, residential occupancy permits were voided when it was discovered that Patinkin is Jewish.
In the third, we learn that the City's discrimination extends to Arab persons. It was learned that the tenants occupying one Peter Dvorak's house were Arab and the City immediately moved to evict these students.

We must fight vigilantly, if it means filing lawsuits in federal court, to achieve redress and
realize the melting pot that America should be. Let's not let this dream die out of apathy.

I am a French Muslim woman from Morocco, and have experienced similar reprisals in the United States. My sisters and I were refused entry to Texas because we were considered "suspicious persons". However, this treatment transcends our people and affects others, specifically Jewish people. I am a professor of law and have been studying three parallel cases, two pending in the Southern District of Indiana and one decided in the Indiana Supreme Court:

Leonard's Linen Services v. City of Bloomington
Patinkin v. City of Bloomington
Dvorak v. City of Bloomington

In the first two cases, we learn that a town in Southern Indiana has a history of discriminating against Jewish landowners. In the former case, a demolition permit was denied because it was discovered the buyer was a Jewish person. In the latter, residential occupancy permits were voided when it was discovered that Patinkin is Jewish.
In the third, we learn that the City's discrimination extends to Arab persons. It was learned that the tenants occupying one Peter Dvorak's house were Arab and the City immediately moved to evict these students.

We must fight vigilantly, if it means filing lawsuits in federal court, to achieve redress and
realize the melting pot that America should be. Let's not let this dream die out of apathy.

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"Doesn’t every nation/religion/tradition have a dark side? "

The only dark side of Islam is the people who abuse it. Islam itsself is pure.

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I am a highly educated, well published, scientist with Islamic heritage who has lived in US for 20 years. See what happened to me! No one in the media gives a damn about this. It is a shame 50 years after Civil Rights Act to find a company in US to discriminate against Muslims with such audacity!
Here is the story:
------------------------------------

"How can we trust you? You may read Quran and get ideas?"

That is what I was told in one occasion by my manager at Merrill Lynch co. where I worked for more than 3 years!

Merrill Lynch is the largest brokerage firm in America. An investment bank and a fortune 100 company with billions of dollars in profits each year. They have also a long track record of discrimination against African Americans, women, etc. (Google "Merrill Lynch + discrimination" for a long list of law suits and class actions some currently pending). The company employs roughly 50,000 employees out of which only 50 or so have Ph.D degrees. I was one of those with a Ph.D in physics and only one with a middle eastern or Muslim background.

Company is located in down town Manhattan a block away from ground zero. It's always a novelty to find an Iranian or someone of Muslim heritage on Wall Street even though Odds of that are slightly better than finding them on Mars!

If you ever try to get a foot in Wall street you would know that it's a mission impossible specially if you are an Iranian. It's just not meant for us. It's for few elites who have the "goods". You know! Anyhow, They were looking for some highly qualified applicant well versed in a quantitative/scientific discipline and after interviewing a couple of hundreds of candidates they didn't like, I showed up. More than 6 hours of grueling interviews and tens of questions (Math, Finance, Computer Science, Statistics, etc) later I was chosen. People who interviewed me were Ph.D graduates of Columbia, NYU, Cornell & Moscow university etc.

It was not until a year or so later that I demanded equal pay and promotion that discrimination and harassment surged. Beyond the time to time greetings of "terrorist", "risk factor" etc there were discriminatory actions that defies imagination. I was physically isolated from rest of my colleagues. While all my colleagues with PhD degrees (those who interviewed me) were sitting on 5th floor of world financial center I was forced to sit in isolation on a different floor next to IT support personnel and this other fellow who was a programmer with a high school degree! As a matter of fact from the three people who were sitting next to me none was a full time employee as me and none had a degree higher than college. Even though I was doing every bit of duty of a quantitative Analyst/Vice president I was isolated physically not to come in contact with my tiers (New era segregation!).

In one occasion one of my colleagues tried to explain to me this odd arrangement. He said: "You are from a country with a high risk factor. That's why you are not allowed on the trading floor"!

Trading floor is the heart of action (No, no one jumps up and down yelling. It's just that big players and decision makers are there). Here I was, a highly educated, cultured intellectual in this country with a PhD in physics and a Masters in Mathematical finance and I had to sit in some secluded corner because of my nationality and perceived religion. If you think that is shameful and discriminatory wait for the rest of the story.

Once a managing director of the firm shared his wisdom with everyone in the group and said: "If we ever have to fire someone among traders and analysts, who is it going to be? I think traders are so many like Palestinians so there is no problem losing some of them on the other hand analysts are few like Israelis, we can not afford losing them."

That statement is not just discriminatory that is plain hate speech. He has admitted saying that during Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) investigation. EEOC is a government agency who is tasked by enforcing the civil rights act in US.

The harassment and discrimination continued till the point that I started pushing back and demand equal treatment and fair salary. Finally they decided to get rid of me. Despite the fact that the company was on a hiring spree at the time and added a net of few thousands to its work force they got rid of me under pretext of "Reduction in force".

Remember the guy who was sitting next to me with a high school degree? He was chosen over me to stay because they decided he has a better grasp of Financial mathematics than yours truly. No the guy is no math prodigy. He is a temp employee/consultant, an experienced programmer who nonetheless has a hard time even handling high school algebra! After they got rid of me they moved him to 5th floor to sit next to my colleagues who all have Ph.D degrees in math and physics! This is all happening in 21st century America folks! No doubt an opportunity land but for who?! You may find it relevant to know he is of Jewish descend and the manger who discovered his talent happens to be an Israeli national! OOPS!The statements I quoted above belong to other managers not him! Hum...!

After my lay off I filed a complaint with EEOC and they found Merrill Lynch guilty of discrimination against me. EEOC letter signed by the New York City director reads:

"Based on the analysis (of evidence), I have found that respondent subjected charging party to discrimination based on his race and religion and retaliated against him." (Part of the EEOC letter is attached I have eliminated the identities for legal concerns).

EEOC usually rejects 95% of discrimination claims as without merit. They also file a law suit on behalf of the plaintiff only in less than 1% of the cases. Despite the clear statement by EEOC as to blatant and vicious nature of this discrimination eight months ago I am still waiting for them to take the next step and file a law suit in federal court!

To call this discrimination is a misuse of English language. This is a hate crime and a downright attempt to eliminate elite elements of a race and religion and replace them by those who have racial, political and religious affinity with them. It is the people at these positions who are going to command influence and power in the society and by eliminating the elite of one race those who perpetrate these acts consciously and methodically intend to foster an environment that guarantees their domination for generations to come.

It would be a colossal mistake to treat this as an isolated case of unintentional lapse in judgment. This case has all the hallmarks of a concerted effort to systematically insure the future of one race at the expense of another.

Helloooo..where is everyone these days...hope we are not running out of gas here..haha..keep this thing going..

Salaams Victoria..It`s good you brought that. Who is complaining that your "version" of Islam is a watered down western "version"?Are they saying this because you come from a Western background?
In fact, you put it in the best way, the way a Non-Muslim would understand.
There is no such thing as a "real" muslim.We are all equal.Born muslims and REVERTS..Note I use REVERT.
See the other thing with our religion is that it comprises people from all walks of life..different races, different cultures, etc..People must realize that muslims from different parts of the world are very different people..We are not all the same..But what unites us is ISLAM. I went for Hajj in 2001, and you will not believe the people you see there. You will see all shades of skin color there.
I think also a common mistake is for people to associate certain negative aspects of some cutures with Islam.
I have a lot of Christian friends and we are very open minded and have regular discussions about our faiths. I have a lot of respect for ALL religions.My religion is VERY important to me and I get very offended when people insult ISLAM or the prophet (PBUH).
I think this just hatred.I don`t mind someone criticizing any aspect of Islam, because you are ignorant. in which case I will explain to you and if I am unable to do that, refer you to someone like Victoria..

wa alaikum a salaam imran-

i watched relion and ethics weekly yesterday and saw an interview with the panelist eboo patel.

i became muslim in 1999 and admit that i thought muslims were called that because they wore muslin cloth!!!!

i wholeheartedly invite you to post on current questions in the muslim panelits posts, as they degenerate quickly, and one of the common complaints i get is that my "version" of islam is a watered down western "version" and that 'real' muslims would reject it.

that why i came to this site too- to share and dialogue-

i respond often because otherwise the posts would be left to the haters, and there may be that one person out there who believes what they say,

the funny thing is- i encounter in my own community the same restrictive mentality- i sometimes play the devils advocate

peace!

Salaams Victoria, well it`s just so nice to see someone putting so much effort into trying to explain our religion, I know it takes a lot of time, patience and effort.So yeah, give praise where it is due.
People must understand that before 9/11, very few in the west knew about Islam. That`s why I think there is all this ignorance and hatred.Also the ignorance is not only about Islam, but also about other cultures, traditions, etc. It`s ironic that the onus is put on the muslims to explain and teach their religion.
It`s just sad that people come here with the sole intention to insult and offend.
I thought the whole idea of this site was for people to come together and find something common in all of us.
Anyways, Keep it up Victoria..

Peace

wa alaikum a salaam imran- well that is a shock-
its rare i get praise indeed (that was praise right? im so unused to it i may be mistaken)

peace

Salaams Victoria
Let me just say that you are just amazing!! I came across this blog by chance on a saturday night when i had nothing to do.I spent a good few hours trying to read all the posts and still didn`t go through all of them. I see myself as a very liberal, moderate Muslim, and I was shocked how much ignorance and hatred there is for Islam and Muslims.It is actually frightening.Let me just say that today It`s Islam because of the Geo-political landscape, who knows what the target is going to be tomorrow?? Racism, hatred and bigotry have no limits...And yes you are right, I`m an Indian guy and I love blonde, blue eyed ladies..haha

you are creating a false dichotomy with that analogy, as the two issues have a very different value.
the impact on a teenagers life (most likely the parents) of paying higher rates for the PRIVILEGE of driving cannot be compared to not getting a job, losing opportunities, being spat upon, or even imprisoned (as has happened to many)

while freedom from discrimination is not a privilege, it is a right.

so no, high insurance rates for teenagers is not discrimination, as it is at the discretion of the companies to set their rates accoeding to their own criteria.

while discrimination against people based on religion robs them of their rights.

I wonder how we look at teenage insurance rates. Just because a few kids had accidents and drove recklessly does that mean that insurance rates for all teenagers should be high? Is that discrimination?

btw deb- i most certainly did not mess up maudoodi and qutb-

i am aware of the life stories of both-
there was no denunciation of the son of qutb nor ws there racial killing in kashmir because of qutb- they are different people with different backgrounds-

qutb was imprisoned for political reasons- not for inciting people to hate-

what are you talking about deb- manu was the first lawgiver-
to reject the laws of manu is to reject hinduism-

polygamy isnt the issue at all and you know it-

you are so sneaky deb-

manus laws were not thrown out 2000 years ago-

it is a part of the religion not an obscurantist side issue-

where you got this polygamy nonsense is anyones guess- youre i suspect just making that up completely to tie in with islam-

the practices are in practice today- and have been accepted in indian society- and only recently (not 1948) have started to be outlawed-

youre full of nonsense deb

Victoria wrote:

"i have a more than passing knowledge of hinduism, but you dont see me elaborating on manus 4 laws and subsequent proscriptions for the treatment of women do you?"

Good, Vicky, good ! You are picking up ! Way to go girl !

But, you know what ? You are making a sorry creature of yourself. These are the reasons:

1. Manusmriti is indeed Manu's code - where the most racist and casteist views of society are indeed found, and makes anyone puke with shame and hatred. But, Manu's laws are NOT the Hindu religion (way of worship) in any way. They refer to a Hindu society that is ridden with all the evils of caste and sexual discrimination against women and lower birth people. It is not religion, but a society that Manu is referring to. It is not any immutable word of God (like in the Quran) and cannot be used to define worship.

2. Hindu society has been inherently secular and most progressive compared to Islam. About 2200 years ago during the Gupta empire the kings, who ruled most of the Northern India, rejected the laws of Manu in their governance. So, it was that early that Manu's laws were not used.

When India became independent in 1947, the secular Govt. of India (Prime Minister Jawahar Lal Nehru) passed a Hindu marriage act (as a part of the Hindu Personal law) where it constitutionally rejected the code of Manu and made polygamy by Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas (the three upper castes) a felony and prosecutable by law. No Hindu rose to claim something like Jihad against this "interference" into their personal lives.

What this shows is that Hindus are far more progressive and secular. They have the courage to reject the obscurantist something that existed since moon was turning into green cheese.

Contrast this to Islam. It is a primitive and barbaric, illiberal society which thrives by fanatical religious discrimination of women and the minority. The Islamic society (ulema) has not been able to come up with any methods to reform itself. It only thrives by instilling the fear of rape, pillage, loot, arson and murder. (Read the newsitems from Pakistan at the site http://www.dawn.com and you shall see what I mean.)

I agree with Mr. Patel that people of a 'darker hue' are treated as 3/5 of a person in this country. I think people largely from middle America (where demographics have historically been W.A.S.P.-dominated, so therefore exposure to diversity has been minimal) are the biggest perpetrators of this (I was born in the Midwest myself).

My impression is that white Americans think they are somehow entitled to citizenship in this country more than 'brown' or 'black' Americans, regardless of whether or not the latter groups were born here (not that I think natural-born status should be a deciding factor). It doesn't matter, they are perceived as 'different' and so therefore should seemingly feel lucky to even be allowed to live here. I'm white, so I would never imply that I know what it's like to walk in the shoes of minorities, but in my observation this mindset runs rampant in this country. People think they 'aren't racist' because they have lunch with a black colleague now and then. Or media portrayals of Muslims are meant to be enlightened because they are educated, clean-cut and likeable terrorists, rather than surly knife-wielding maniacs. I think this is considered improvement, which shows how vast the problem is.

Because of deep ignorance and intolerance in this country, negative sentiment towards Muslims here is deemed 'understandable' by many post-9/11. Presumably it isn't because people have considered thoughtfully their feelings towards Muslims and came to a logical conclusion that disliking them or being uncomfortable with their presence is legitimate. No, I think the feelings were already deep-seeded and 9/11 only provided ammunition and weak justification for intolerance towards Muslims. Why? Because again I think alot of white (and maybe other races as well, I'm not sure) Americans are very uncomfortable with anything 'different' and, to their perception, 'foreign'. Isn't it interesting how quickly so many, who consider themselves enlightened and certainly not racist, will utter something along the lines of "well if they don't like it, they can go home!" as if the U.S. is, for some reason, not their home. They could be born here, family here for generations, U.S.-passport carrying, tax-paying citizens, but if they are a 'darker hue' as Mr. Patel said, they aren't quite entitled to be considered American.

This mindset is actually very un-American (and un-Christian, not that anyone seems to mind that), if we're to identify with the plaque on the Statue of Liberty and it's sentiment ("Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses, yearning to breathe free..."). As if we're a welcoming place for all! Perhaps it should read 'Give me your money, your educated, English-speaking, European-looking youth or bugger off.'

well, alot of people like alot of things-
is it a reflection on the aryans (noble in sanskrit)that hilter stole the swastika?

i imagine osama had access to a very exclusive education and came across many things he liked and disliked-

creating a false connection just seems like youre casting about for any reason to complain-

i have a more than passing knowledge of hinduism, but you dont see me elaborating on manus 4 laws and subsequent proscriptions for the treatment of women do you?

you know what i mean

see- just because i am aware of some very negative manifestations of your belief system-doesnt make it necessary to to publicly abuse you-

i wont hit you where it hurts- it gos against who i am as a muslim-
its now enough that you know that i know what you know

we will get back on topic

Victoria:

As usual it is apparent on this and other forums, where you simply puke others views, that you become more incredible in your personal attacks when you feel uncomfortable in answering any of the questions posed.

And yes, caste system is indeed elitist. You have, somehow, managed get this right. However elitism in the Hindu caste system does not explain why there is an apparent common thread between yours, Osama, Zawahiri's liking of Sayyid Qutb.

There is more than that meets the eye.

deb is a brahmin so the common rules of civility dont apply to him- if my shadow touched him hed have to go shower and change his clothes-

but we wont discuss the inherent elistism built into the caste system

Deist Ded,

Where are your manners!!!

Victoria:

You have messed up Maudoodi and Qutb. But, that's OK - a characteristic.

The evidences you have cited are really tiny by comparison the follwoing each has even if their Governments had arrested them or Maudoodi's children had disowned him, which you repeatedly cite to show (quite foolishly) that Maudoodi is a discredited scholar. If that were so, the Jammat-i-Islam (founded by Maudoodi in Lahore in 1937) would not have had a substantial following in Pakistan and Bangladesh. It is because of the political power of the Jammat the governments in these countries are surviving. (Pakistan of course is a military dictatorship.)

And, because you like the ideas of Sayyid Qutb who is also a favorite of Osama bin Laden and Ayman al Zawahiri, you three maybe lumped in the same boat.

It is really weird. You are westernized Muslim convert in USA - a country whose Constitution upholds free speech and freedom of almost anything; Osama bin Laden and Zawahiri are opposed to US foreign policies plus the US society/cultural values (free speech in particular and that includes the freedom to criticize Islam). But, by a strange twist of fate (insallah) all three of you have devotion for Sayyid Qutb whose book MILESTONES implies the call for the destruction of US pre-emptively in order to save Islam from its evil influence ! How queer !

Victoria, are you also in cahoots with Al Qaeeda ?

Deb Chatterjee (Ref post 25 March 2007 9:26):

That was an insightful comparison of the Bhagavad Gita with Islam. You did right in pointing out the differences, since religions do have unique aspects about them while they all have the same goal of reaching God.

[BTW my Hindu ancestors were upper caste Brahmins too – Nambudiri/Namboothiri (who practice the most ancient and strictest form of the Vedic religion and are considered princely Hindu Brahmins) from Thrissur, Kerala. Until the age of eight I lived in the same remote village in Thrissur, that my Syro-Malabar Christian ancestors had lived in for over nineteen centuries. Up until my father’s generation almost all my relatives lived and married within a fifty kilometre radius, taking care that the Christians they married were similarly Nambudiri converts, thus maintaining the Hindu social customs despite the conversion! Kerala tradition has it that Apostle Thomas, one of the disciples of Jesus Christ, came to Kerala in 52 AD, along the well established ‘Seidenstrasse’ or ‘Silk (street) Road’ (Kerala being known for trade in spices like pepper) to the small Jewish community that lived in Kerala at the time. The ministry of Apostle Thomas was unique in that he converted not only Jews, but also many Brahmins and other upper caste Hindus in Kerala. The mass conversions of the lower castes by Francis Xavier, the co-founder of the Jesuit order, did not take place until fifteen centuries later. I do not consider it unfortunate at all that my ancestors were Nambudiris. I also consider it extremely fortunate that they converted to Christianity, although it is wonderful to know that Nambudiris practise the oldest religion in the world and as a people they are wonderful and extremely noble.]

Christianity, as you are aware, as a religion preaches NON-violence, so the Bhagavad Gita can be applied to Christianity only in the sense that Mahatama Gandhi did it – primarily as a battle within the individual soul against the forces of evil within oneself and its attachment to objects in the world outside, and of course Bakhti to Jesus, serving Him with detachment and seeking knowledge about Him.

Christianity would make a pathetic state religion because Jesus did not come to mete out justice but to show love and mercy. He said “If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.” That would be a poor way to defend the borders of one’s country when foreign forces invade it. If all enemies are to be forgiven as Jesus commands, and as He did while He hung on the cross dying, who would protect the innocent from the criminals? The Sermon on the Mount (Gospel of Matthew, chapters 5-7) could be considered the summary of Jesus’ teaching. In the early days of Christianity, many Christians ended up getting killed for their faith. There is nothing in the life of Jesus or what is written in the New Testament that justifies any kind of violence. My personal complaint has been that it seems to encourage masochism instead by being told to turn the other cheek! Thank God Jesus also implied that religion and the state should remain separate, when He said “Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar, give to God what belongs to God,” and that His kingdom was not of this world. In other words Jesus was talking in terms of a spiritual world and a spiritual kingdom. But that is not to say that it would be bad for politicians to be true Christians. On the contrary, the Western civilisation is proof that wonderful things can come out of it.

Although the New Testament written from the time of the birth of Jesus is the main Scripture for Christians, Christianity also shares the Old Testament with the Jews and Muslims, which does have instances of war and violence. The Old Testament is important to the Christians because the prophets predict the coming of the Messiah, the Saviour of the world, who is the equivalent of the Avatar of the Absolute Brahman. Christianity if founded on our belief that Jesus Christ is the Messiah whose coming was predicted by the Prophets of the Old Testament. Jesus who was born a Jew and lived the life of a Jew till the end, teaching in the Synagogues, referred to the passages in the Old Testament that spoke of His coming to prove that He was the Messiah that the Jews had been promised through their Scripture.

Christianity does not believe in reincarnation. Christians believe that we are saved by the redeeming work of Jesus Christ, who although He lived a perfect life was put to death (an offering of innocent blood) as atonement for our sins. Jesus for Christians is the Avatar of God who broke the cycle of birth and death on our behalf through His perfect life and sacrifice, and we are set free from the cycle of birth and death by worshipping Him. Christians are expected to live a good and holy life not in order to become worthy of Heaven but because Jesus commanded His followers to obey his commands as proof of love for Him, and His command was to love everyone, including our enemies. To develop the ability to love everyone including our enemies in the universal way Jesus commanded, the Bhagavad Gita provides extremely valuable advice that definitely adds to the wisdom of the Bible.

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

i respect qutb greatly- but it takes more than a 'just because i say so' to validate a claim like that deb-

if he was so respected why did the government of pakistan imprison him?

why is he credited with starting a hateful movement that was racist and apartheid and killed people?

why did his own son distance himself from him and denounce him publicly?

id say your analysis of what constitutes world wide acceptance of something is lacking

Victoria:

Majority of the Islamic world respects Maudoodi and Qutb.

You and other westernized Muslim converts are in minority.

maudodi was imprisoned by his own pakistani government and disowned by his children for the hateful venom he spewed in the name of islam-

so i wouldnt exactly consider his opinion as definitive of anyting but a deranged soul
properly disavowed by those he claimed to represent-

werent there also many cases of actual abuses by hindus from his hateful propoganda?

so one opinion from one diseased character out of history doesnt a majority make- or even a valid opinion for anyone-

Victoria:

I regret some of the typos in my last post to you.

Victoria wrote:

"in islam one can only fight in a defensive posture- and then as soon as the aggressor proclaims peace- one is obligated to repsect that and cease fighting"

Theoretical and speculative opinions, as like yours.

Muhammad's bio has quite different incidents that counter such claims. Also, Muslim scholars - who has not been discredited in the greater Muslim world - but perhaps by westernized Muslim converts like you - such Sayyid Qutb and Maulana Maudoodi have satted that for eliminating "kufr" pre-emptive war is absolutely OK.

actually theres also the major difference in that in islam there is no aggresson- but fighting is only proscribed when ones home is aggressed upon- in other words- no "pre-emptive" judgements allowed -

in order to discern what "injustice" is- theres a judgement-

in islam one can only fight in a defensive posture- and then as soon as the aggressor proclaims peace- one is obligated to repsect that and cease fighting

Soja John Thaikattil:

Your remarks on Bhagavad Gita are quite interesting, and though coming from a upper-caste Brahmin family (unfortunately), I have felt that the message there is indeed universal. Muslims would like the core message, because it does not condemn violence when necessary. Many Muslim scholars have interepreted the message as same as "Jihad" (physical warfare). The similarity, in the opinion of Muslim scholars, is that the Supreme Godhead (Lord Krishna) is telling a human (Arjuna) being to pick up arms, to fight injustice. This is EXACTLY what the message of the Quran is. Parallel to this is the message of monotheism as in the Quran and Bible. How strange !

I have read both texts, and did not see how Muslim/Christian scholars would be wrong in such an assertion.

However major differences are:

(1) Bhagavad Gita [18:63] emphasizes on interpretation of the message to suit the situation at hand, and denouncing anything of the "fundamentalist" stripe like Islam. This means, as stated very clearly in the text, that one must accept/reject the message with questioning, analysis followed by one's own self-convictions through contemplation. The course of action that one might subsequently decide should be pursued without any attachment to the fruits/ results of those actions. (Such actions might, on occasion, involve use of violence and/or peace.)

(2) Emphatic assertion of birth and rebirth (karma) - that is the entrapment of the soul in the mortal flesh commensurate with the deeds in earlier lives. By realization of the Absolute Brahman can one break away the cycle of birth and rebirth.

(3) Several paths to realization of the Absolute Brahman - primary ones being Sankhyayoga [detachment, chapter 2], Karmayoga [deed, chapter 3] and Bhaktiyoga [faith, chapter 12]. The existence of suchseveral paths/forms of worship is to be interpreted similar to "all paths lead to Rome".

For that matter the first suicide bombimg was done by the tamil tigers but no one wants to talk about that...

I agree with you totally. I hate doing it myself; the problem arises when certain people attack islam and our blessed prophet for the sake of inuslts and not to start a frank and balanced discussion and dialogue; and they do it from their perceived superiority and the superority of their religion. I feel cornered when they do that and I come out swinging and don't care whom I hurt. After all said and done I feel bad and ashamed for what I said; but sometimes the way I look at it , it's a dirty job and some one got to do it...

it doesnt serve anyone to point fingers of accusation at others- peope arent so inclined to accept deep criticism-

it is well written- but for the purposes of addressing non-muslims- it is too judgemental and condemnatory-

terrorism actually is an irish invention-
the first urban geurilla was michael collins

its well written- but the content is unnecessarily condemnatory

no one in the histroy of the world ever changed their opinion by having their beliefs attacked

i suggest he or she turn their prodigious talents toward a positive representation of islam- rather than more comments about the sins of the 'other'

PM is muslim you guys. He is arguing the absurdity of the western man's arrogance, materialism and hegemony. He is being sarcastic in talking of the western man superiority and his self righteouss morality.

The statement attests to that: "In the final analysis, however, it is the nature of the victim that decides the issues of morality: causing Western deaths is always ungodly and unpardonable; exterminating non-western peoples carries no such moral stigma. Terrorism, in short, is a Muslim invention, and like fanaticism must be applied exclusively to Islam."

I think it is a very well written piece...

Victoria (ref post 23 March 2007 3:06 AM):

First of all let me assure you that I respect the fact that you became a Muslim as a result of your spiritual search, having tried out several religions for yourself. I mentioned that in one of my posts to you as early as December 2006. I deeply respect the fact that you are widely read, have a very sharp intellect and respond with admirable grace to criticism about Islam or Muslims, and have a most remarkable style of communication that stands out in the crowd. I have noticed too that many have expressed their appreciation for all that in the way they respond to you and are keen to keep you engaged in the discussion.

You wrote: “possibly you weren’t aware that I was responding to a statement- that was defaming the Prophet (pbuh) for living as a householder. (ascetic term for people living in the world).”

Of course I was fully aware that you were responding to negative remarks made about Prophet Mohamed (PBUH). The negative remarks, as I understood them, were not about Mohammed (pbuh) having lived like a householder (the Hindu word for a non-Sannyasi), but about him having married several women, including a child, after the death of his first wife, with whom he was in a monogamous relationship for twenty five years. (I personally think that Mohamed’s (pbuh) first marriage to a widow fifteen years older than him, and his life in a monogamous happy relationship with her for twenty five years until her death, speaks a lot in favour of Mohamed’s generosity and capacity to love.) I understand that Muslim scholars have already engaged in lengthy discussions and multiple interpretations about the polygamous aspect of his life. I also understand that eight years after he started to live the life of polygamy, which was four years before his death at the age of sixty two, Mohamed (pbuh) received a message from heaven to the effect that other human beings were not to follow his example of marrying several women, but restrict the number of wives to a maximum of four, but ONLY if the man could love every single one of them equally, and with the consent of every wife before he married the next. An Indian Muslim friend of mine had explained to me long ago that in effect Mohamed (pbuh) was speaking out against polygamy by making a demand that is humanly impossible, i.e. To love four women in exactly the same way, and to get consent from all wives since no woman who loved her husband deeply would ever give honest consent to share her husband with another woman.

Having said that, the purpose of my response to your comments was not to discuss the rights and wrongs of Mohamed’s polygamy – there are enough Muslim scholars sufficiently interested in discussing it. Besides, Jews and Christians also have details written in the Old Testament which requires considerable effort to explain because they defy our common understanding of what is considered highest morality. Luckily prophets are not gods, and none of them asked the people to worship them and gave instructions to worship God, the Creator of the Universe. As a Christian of course I consider Jesus as Son of God, and not a Prophet. As far as Islam goes, I appreciate particularly the spiritual wealth of the Sufi tradition because I was introduced to it in school first in the form of Kabir’s verses.

I have always been a Christian and remain a Christian by conviction, in spite of being open to the spiritual wealth in other religions, just as you became a Muslim because of your conviction after having tried out other religions for yourself.

I felt that you had portrayed Rama, Krishna, Brahma, Shiva, Vishnu, Buddha, Ramakrishna, the monks in spring in a somewhat distorted light, and hence added some additional information in my response, (some of the details being from the Wikipedia). Sure you or anyone else is entitled to interpret the information given in the Wikipedia in anyway they like.

No, I had no idea that there are five different translations of the Ramayana. I had expected many more, considering that the Ramayana is an ancient epic poem written in Sanskrit – a language that does not lend itself to easy translation. But the original Sanskrit or any of the translations one would normally refer to would not have an account of Sita burn, simply because the story would no longer be a love story, and the values and morals that helped shaped the culture of India would have to be rewritten. To Indian understanding, Rama is the model husband, and Sita is the model wife, who remained faithful to her husband in spite of the persistent attempts by Ravana to seduce her. Sita was proved not to have been an opportunistic adulteress by not being burned. If according to you one out of five translators burned Sita, first of all only one out of five burned her. As for the translator using their translating skills to burn Sita, why they may burn anyone they choose and even write their own story.

You wrote, “if you read sarada devi’s writings- you cant help but be touched by the twinge of loneliness she experienced- sometimes i would get quite sad reading her.”

Sharada Devi, the wife of Ramakrishna, to all accounts was happy to assist her husband in anyway to achieve God consciousness, and she achieved it herself. Neither her husband nor his disciples, who treated her like their mother, seem to have noticed the loneliness. How sure are you then that the loneliness you refer to are not your personal interpretations, and has nothing to do with how Sharada Devi herself felt? Our conditioned mind, in its ordinary state, is so limited in its capacity to grasp anything beyond its own experience or understanding you know, so it might be quite presumptuous to conclude that one understands the emotions of someone like Sharada Devi fully, considering she was taught and groomed by Ramakrishna himself and wanted God realisation for herself as much as he did, and lived too full a life to have had much room for loneliness.

You wrote, “a celibate is a spiritually incomplete experience- one has to truly love another human being…to learn how to love humanity. Buddha had his place in his time-but we are ready to be complete and holistic beings now-
there still is something vaguely unsettling about his lack of filial love after he reached enlightenment- his behaviour was undesirable by the standards humans have set today..”
”
A spiritual experience by its very definition is an experience of the spirit and not of the body. Both, God who is spirit, and our God given human spirit, which gives us life but departs the body at the end of our lives, is beyond gender and sexual needs. It is common knowledge that one has deep spiritual experience when one is able to rise above the body consciousness. And of course the spiritual experience must translate into ordinary mind consciousness, or rather the ordinary mind must be transformed by the spiritual experience and that is the most difficult part of the spiritual experience.

By your definition of “complete” spiritual experience however, all the people we normally consider to have had deep spiritual experience, which translated itself into every aspect of their lives, would need to be struck off the list starting with Jesus Christ. Buddha, Mahavir, John the Baptist, the Dalai Lama, all the Hindu and Buddhist monks and sages who were celibate (most of them were), all the Catholic saints, nuns, monks and priests who achieved great good, etc. Agape is the highest form of love, a love that encompasses all. Sexual love is after all restricted to attractive members of the opposite sex, and is primarily self serving and purely hedonistic, unless its expression is limited to loving a single person in a committed relationship. The legitimate human need for a lifelong companion and sexual expression within that relationship notwithstanding, some are able to rise above that need and develop a universal agape love for all beings, a love that is not erotic or sexual. But as you well know such love is rare, because true celibacy is an extremely hard state to achieve. And sure, agape love can be acquired even when is in a committed love relationship with one member of the opposite sex, but sexual love does NOT automatically create or lead to agape love. Sexual love merely satisfies a legitimate human need and helps love and bond with the person if one is committed to the relationship.

The love of Jesus, Buddha, Mother Theresa, Pope John Paul, and a whole host of others comes across as unsettling to you simply because they were filled with agape love and did not miss sexual love and CHOSE to remain celibate? And by your definition none of them were complete and holistic human beings? And by your definition their behaviour is undesirable by the standards humans have set today? May I ask since when human beings are refused the permission to freely choose celibacy, and who sets the standard that a monogamous sexual relationship is compulsory?

You wrote: “Muhammad(pbuh) showed all humans for all times how to be in constant communion with the god- and still live up to all of our adult repsonsibilities- and best of all-live with each other-

Muhammad(pbuh) aught us how to live with a personal god- in a personal world.
i spent decades personally in that lifestyle-
it was enough- there comes a time to test what is learned- a life lived in pursuing personal salvation results in the self being saved- but i tink the point is broader in regards to humanity-“

I do agree that Mohamed (pbuh) did teach a lot of wonderful things as written in the Quran. I think the instruction to pray five times a day, the month of fasting to intensify prayer, to give charity, help the needy etc are great indeed. I agree too that there is more to spiritual life than pursuing personal salvation alone while ignoring the needs of humanity. The Bible hence teaches that faith without works is dead. The message of Jesus is clear about the day of judgement when we will be asked to give an account of our lives to God and what we have done to the least of our human brethren will be counted as being done for Him.

Balance and moderation in everything else except our love for God is considered the ideal path in all religions.

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

Deb Chatterjee

Thanks for sharing your thoughts – for pointing out the difference between Hinduism and other religions: Hinduism is a ?con-federation of religions, rather than a single religion, and your succinct overview of the Bhagavad-Gita and how its core message would please the Muslims. Although this thread is about discrimination of Muslims in the US, I am sure the effort to find common ground can only enhance mutual respect and understanding. I'm sure there would be others beside Victoria who stand to benefit from the off topic comment.

I was merely responding to Victoria’s list of names of Hindu gods, sages and prophets from the Bible (refer her post addressed to Ross 22 March 2007 10:24 AM). She was drawing the attention of posters, who made derogatory remarks about the fact that Prophet Mohamed (PBUH), who after the death of his first wife (with whom he was in a monogamous relationship for twenty five years), starting at the age of fifty, married several women (including a child) - details that have been discussed in detail and debated about by Muslim scholars themselves - to a list of religious figures whose lives were comparable. In her post to Ross she wrote, “youre reasoning is that living as a holistic human being and an example for other humans- this invalidates somehow the mission of the prophet?” All I did was add some details about the names on her list in a way to correct the somewhat erroneous picture her comments seemed to create.

Aside: As to the Bhagavad Gita itself, next to the Bible, to me it the most important Scripture. In school I had memorised the 18th chapter for a Sanskrit recitation competition (with no interest in the religious significance of it at the time). However when I spent time at the Ashram of Dom Bede Griffiths starting 1984, I learnt to appreciate the spiritual value of the Bhagavad Gita. At the time Fr Bede happened to give daily talks about the Bhagavad Gita in the Ashram, which was to be later published as “River of Compassion – a Christian commentary on the Bhagavad Gita.” In the introduction to his book, Fr Bede writes, “The Bhagavad Gita or Song of God is a spiritual classic, which though it comes from the Hindu tradition, belongs not only to Hindus, but to all the world. It is part of the spiritual inheritance of mankind. In calling this commentary on the Bhagavad Gita a “Christian Reading”, I do not intend to suggest that there was any Christian influence in the composition or that there is anything specifically Christian about it. I only want to show how it can be a practical guide on the spiritual path.” During my religious initiation ceremony (first of two, but unfortunately the second one was not conducted because I could not return to India before Fr Bede passed away on 13 May 1993) Fr Bede conducted on 23 February 1992, he chose verses 61-66 from the 18th chapter of the Bhagavad Gita for me to read, along with other Bible readings. Fr Bede gave me a name chosen from the Bhagavad Gita – Priya, and he said it meant “Beloved of God.”

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

Victoria:

Get a grip. Pervez Manzoor is right on the issue of "victimhood" psyche that the Muslim population, as a minority in any country, uses as a trump card. (They have given ACLU a lot of business following 9/11.)

It (Muslims crying hoarse over discrimination) has been that way in India, and the West has now finally woken up from its proverbial slumber to see that this virus has spread in their egalitarian societies too.

Eboo Patel has the option of moving back to his home country to give his child a decent safe haven, free of any "religious" discrimination.

there will be no dialogue if there is accusations and finger pointing- turn your attentions to repossessing the truth so that everyone can understand-
you may otherwise give people words to use against muslims- just watch-

possibly youre ratinale might make some sense to you- but for me - it was prayer inparticular that led me to islam.

prayer after years of contemplation and meditation.
i am sorry you feel this way, but they are your own so you are entitiled to them.

but you are wong in your basic assumptions of how muslims view trancendance, god and our own experiences.

i have never felt an especial need to derogate metaphysical experiences of others-

it is not a competition.

so sad

Undoubtedly, for Muslims, the unkindest cut of modernity is its claim to have dispensed with every source of transcendence that Islam holds so dear. God, revelation and the moral law emanating from it, are, accordingly, all ghosts of an infantile and obsolete metaphysics: they are nothing but deceitful and untrustworthy idols of the unfree and the un-enlightened. However, Islam’s suffering form the affliction of modernity is twofold: it is not only the target of the transcendence-negating rationality of Enlightenment, but also the victim of all the passions and phobias of an unforgiving Christianity. How tragic then that for many Muslims today, there are no other mentors but orientalists, missionaries, media pundits, political analysts and other nondescript experts. For who can deny that even a minimum allegiance to the notion of a western political identity leads to the construction of difference that renders Islam as the ultimate other that must not to be taken on its own terms. Thus, for all its achievements and respectability, western ‘science of Islam’ is but an instrument for the propagation of a message the ultimate aim of which is to ensure the western dominance of the world.

Given the ineluctable fact that all systems of knowledge proceed from certain unproven axioms, it is not unfair to express the tenets of Western ‘islamology’, which is the polemical branch par excellence of the supremacist doctrine of the West, as follows: Muslim reality, whatever its abstruseness, intractability and recalcitrance, is always subservient to the theoretical vision of the Western scholar. Western reality may be complex, contingent and impenetrable (but that is to be expected because of richness and sophistication of western history and institutions, not to speak of the profundity and versatility of the Western mind!) Islamic reality by contrast is arid, insipid and predictable..

That Islam is firmly committed to the command of the Transcendent from beyond presents the Western intellect with no insurmountable epistemological problems. The transcendent in the case of Islam needs no other explanation than the historical; the claim of borrowings from the Biblical tradition is more than adequate to account for the Muslim obsession with God and the Hereafter. Similarly, like Muslim faith, Muslim history is an open book. Whatever the cunning of history, the Western scholar is always able to penetrate the smokescreen of Muslim ideology and self-deception. Islam as a historical phenomenon, therefore, is not what Muslims believe it to be. No, it is what Western scholars have shown it to be, because the Western vision is academic, objective and scientific. Islamic vision, by contrast, is mythical and self-aggrandising. (The paradox that the Western vision of Islam is part of its self-image, and hence equally mythical and self-aggrandising, does not bother the self-confident Western scholar!)

Given the erroneous nature of the Muslims’ image of Islam, it is but natural that Muslims cannot ‘represent’ it in scholarly forums; they cannot have the ‘objectivity’ and ‘intellectual perspicacity’ of the Western islamologues who alone are the scientists of things islamic and the true arbiters of islamicity. All authoritative works on Islam, be these encyclopaedias, dictionaries, standard historical accounts or general cultural tracts, cannot therefore be made the springboards of Muslim propaganda: Muslim contribution to these, inasmuch as it is de rigueur within the charade of multi-culturalism, must be restricted to remote areas and modern themes. Nothing touching the formative history of Islam and the sensitive issues of its message and ideals must ever be interpreted by the Muslims themselves; and if they ever succeed in doing it, they must be branded as ‘apologists’.

The grandest delusion of Muslim self-understanding - such is the tacit, or at times not so tacit, ground of Western islamology - is that God spoke to Muhammad (S). Now, everybody knows that God does not exist and hence does not speak, and least of all to a heathen and gentile people like the Arabs. Or, if one insists upon using the theological language, then there can be no denying that the only genuine discourse on God is found in the Biblical tradition. Only the theological genius of the Hebrews, or the philosophical profundity of their successors, the Christian Church, can claim to having engendered and cultivated a universal morality which is the ultimate gift of the theism.

Islam is not a religion in the true sense of the word: it is too this-worldly, sensual, obsessed with power and earthly glory, to qualify as a genuine salvational doctrine. Christian charity and overcoming of the forces of evil, by the paradoxical, nay scandalous, stratagem of surrender and self-sacrifice, is the only true path to individual redemption. That the West has created a civilisation that is far more secular, sensual and power-intoxicated than any other known to man, islamic included, does not, of course, refute the Western claim, or falsify the Christian rhetoric of love. There is no duplicity of morals and power in the Western tradition; what it possesses is a unique tension between the unattainable ideal of self-transcendence and the easily achievable reality of self-worship. Nothing, none of the umpteen genocidal wars against ancient Barbarians, medieval Saracens, modern American Indians, African natives, and countless number of other non-Western tribes, can blemish the peaceful and compassionate image of the Western world-polity.

The West is the source of all the humane ideas of the world. Hence, its military technology, which canonises remote-killing and sanctions the indiscriminate slaughter of non-combatant civilians in the name of collective good, cannot be likened to the terrorist acts of our times. Mass killing in the name of the state is legitimate and justified; sporadic acts of violence in the name of religion (read: Islam) are illicit and immoral. In the final analysis, however, it is the nature of the victim that decides the issues of morality: causing Western deaths is always ungodly and unpardonable; exterminating non-western peoples carries no such moral stigma. Terrorism, in short, is a Muslim invention, and like fanaticism must be applied exclusively to Islam.

Humanity, in the hegemonic perception of the West, is an abstraction devoid of political content. It exists in the moral universe of man but has nothing to do with the power-structures of states and nations. Humanitarian visions of a Just Global Order are therefore vehicles of political blackmail by the powerless and the marginalized. Human Rights, on the other hand, embody true norms of political morality and civilised behaviour. Besides, the powerful and the privileged never utilise them as instruments of Realpolitik and self-promotion. Thus, if in order to safeguard an individual’s political rights, wars need be waged, nations need be destroyed, humanity need be made to suffer, so be it. The individual is sovereign over the state - except of course, if the state happens to be Western and the individual a non-Westerner. That the legal provision of equality before law within the same state did not prevent the extinction of Jews in Nazi Germany and massacre of Muslims in Bosnia, is besides the point. For a Jew, or a Muslim, as citizen may be equal to his German or Yugoslavian fellow-citizen, but Judaism as a community, and Muslims as an umma, cannot be given the same status vis-à-vis the Christian West.

Those who do not accept these tenets of the hegemonic Western worldview and reject the canons of its global order are bound to disappear from history. For the goal and meaning of universal history is the self-realisation of the free and rational man - the Western man par excellence.

Given the nature of this indoctrination, which denounces every expression of Muslim identity as a conspiracy against humanity, which degrades every aspiration of Muslim morality as a return to medieval bondage, which reduces the Islamic Project to a barbaric obssession with the subjugation of women, which disfigures the soul of Islam for the sake of propagating the myth of Western superiority, isn’t it high time that Muslims start resisting the cultural and intellectual imperialism of the West. The battle for the recovery of Muslim self-image is a battle for the repossession of truth.
Parvez Manzoor

youre most welcome to elaborate if you want to deb- this was an interesting an enlightening post

Soja John Thaikattil

I don't get into the more deeper aspects of Hindu philosophy. First, I would submit:

(a) Hinduism is not an (organized) religion like in the Abrahamic sense.

(b) Sree Bhagavad Gita, which is considered revealed on a battleground, by Lord Krihsna himself preaches and strictly advocates monotheism. Its core message would please the Muslims because of its insistence "There is no God, but God, and all other forms of worship false because they do not lead to ultimate salvation". Here ultimate salvation means breaking away from the cycle of birth and rebirth. This happens when one realizes the Absolute Brahman within him/her.

In that text it is stated that celibacy is, as you have corectly opined, NOT mandatory for realizing Absolute Brahman. It is ONE of the ways to achieve that state.

The Sree Bhagavad Gita rejects any past Do's and dont's as used be the case in the Vedic era that emphasized on rituals to please the various gods and goddesses. But Sree Bhagavad Gita breaks away from that thought process by stating that all these demigods are actually manifestation of the Almighty God in various forms. Hence Gita suggests that worshipping the One God is the ultimate of worship (chapter 9, 10, 18 in particular).

Faith [Bhaktiyoga, chapter 12] (as a form of submission) is considered one of the easiest ways to achieve ultimate salvation, like Gyanyoga [Knowledge, chapters 2 & 4] and Karmayoga [chapter 3].

Anyway, I don't want to elaborate on this subject, as it does not relate how Muslims are discriminated in USA or the West.

Paula and others - here is substantiation against the rather indelicate claim of "muslims bogus whining"

September 11, 2005

Muslims in America - Four Years After 9/11

by Habib Siddiqui

"The U.S. Congress has yet to name an independent investigative commission similar to the one conducted by the Sept. 11 commission to examine how the Qur’an-abuse occurred in prisons across Guantanamo Bay, Afghanistan and Iraq, and to develop policies to prevent such offensive incidences."

Four years ago America’s sense of invulnerability on its own soil was shattered when two hijacked planes crashed separately into the twin towers of the WTC causing each to collapse. Since that momentous event, 9/11 has become an important anniversary. Not this year though. It was totally overshadowed by the Katrina disaster.

The anniversary also came at a time when President Bush’s approval rating was at an all time low with everything from the war in Iraq to oil price seemingly going in the wrong direction.

My friends and family members, living outside the United States, often ask me about how the aftermath has been for Muslims living in America. Answering the question is not as simple because one’s personal experiences would vary depending on the location one lives in, the job one does, the interaction one maintains both within and outside the Muslim community, etc. While the full dimension of backlash against Muslim Americans may never be known, from the reports I have been able to read and hear, there is no doubt that the last four years have been anything but pleasant for most Muslim Americans. This is because of the alleged involvement of some young Muslims hijackers with the attack on America on that fateful day. As for me, I hardly now perform congregational prayers in Islamic centers and mosques. I also don’t deliver as many lectures on Islam and Muslim issues that I used to do. I know of many Muslims who don’t frequent Islamic centers as often as they used to.

In July 2002, the Washington-based Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) polled 945 Muslims to find how 9/11 has affected them. Forty-eight percent of the respondents said that their lives had changed for the worse since 9/11 while 57% reported experiencing an act of bias or discrimination, ranging from disparaging remarks to a hate crime. [1]

Many new Muslim immigrants have clustered in certain jobs, notably as small business owners, running gas stations, convenience stores, motels, and as cab drivers. This may account for the prevalence of backlash victims among persons with these occupations. Two of the three 9/11-related murders for which charges have been brought were of convenience store workers. The third murdered victim was a gas station owner. The taxi dispatch services in many major cities reported that after 9/11 they had received threatening calls saying that their Muslim and Arab taxi workers would be killed. [2]

According to a 2002 Human Rights Watch (HRW) report “The September 11 Backlash” [3] (against Muslims and Arabs): “Mosques and places of worship perceived to be mosques appeared to be among the most likely places of September 11-related backlash violence. SAALT’s (South Asian American Leaders of Tomorrow) survey of bias incidents reported in major news media found 104 bias incidents against places of worship reported during the first week after September 11. [4] … Although September 11 backlash violence against individual Arabs and Muslims decreased markedly by November 2001, attacks continued against mosques or houses of worship perceived to be Arab or Muslim. On November 19, 2001, four teenagers burned down the Gobind Sadan, a multi-faith worship center in Oswego, New York, because they believed the worshippers were supporters of Osama Bin Laden. On March 25, 2002, a man who stated to police that he hated Muslims crashed his pickup truck into a mosque in Tallahassee, Florida thirty minutes after evening prayers.[5] On June 11, 2002, in Milipitas, California, vandals broke into a mosque under construction, scrawled derogatory remarks such as, "F- Arabs" and damaged the interior of a construction trailer near the mosque.[6] On August 24, 2002, federal authorities announced they had discovered a plan by a doctor in Tampa Bay to bomb and destroy approximately 50 mosques and Islamic cultural centers in south Florida. The doctor's home contained rocket launchers, sniper rifles and twenty live bombs.” [7]

As to job-related discrimination, the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) received 488 complaints as of May 2002. Of these, 301 involved persons who were fired from their jobs. A poll of Arab Americans conducted in May 2002 found that 20% had personally experienced job discrimination. [8]

In the pre-9/11 days, e.g., in 2000, the FBI received reports of 28 hate crimes (offenses motivated by race, religion, color, gender, etc.) against Muslims and Arabs in the U.S. In 2001, that number jumped to 481, most of these within weeks after 9/11. (The Arab-American Anti-Discrimination Committee, however, reported a higher figure; for instance, over 600 9/11-related hate crimes, committed against Arab Americans.)[9] What is important here is to realize that a U.S. Justice Department study found that a whopping 75% of hate crimes go unreported.[10] That means actual hate crimes could be four times the reported numbers.

Hate crimes against Muslim Americans increased by 121% to 1019 incidents in 2003, according to a report released on May 3, 2004 by Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR). The report also showed that overall anti-Muslim incidents in the United States increased by almost 70% in 2003.[11]

In the last two years, while the sporadic violence against anyone resembling a Muslim or an Arab has subsided, the level of aggressive disrespect and intolerance of Islam, mistrust of and discrimination against Muslims at workplaces is showing no sign of receding. The root cause may lie elsewhere - in the spiteful and bigoted sermons emanating from the churches, synagogues, temples, radio talk show programs, TV shows (especially Fox and the evangelical ones), and public libraries.

Quoting CAIR, the Human Rights Watch reports that the number of violent acts, discriminatory incidents and cases of harassment against Muslims rose 49% between 2003 and 2004 to 1522. [12]

The other more worrisome matter is: hate crimes against Muslims and Arabs remain disproportionately high compared to their proportion. For example, in Texas Arabs make up only about 0.3% of population, but they are victims in 4% of all hate crimes. About 0.5% percent of Texans are Muslims, but they are victims in 2.8% of the reported hate crimes. [13]

Some notable victims of witch-hunting include Jose Padilla and Capt. Yee.

Jose Padilla, a convert to Islam, was declared an “enemy combatant” (indeed the only American declared as such) by Presidential order and ordered locked away in a military brig in South Carolina — where he has languished since May 2002 in a windowless, 5-by-7-foot cell that is always brightly lit — without an indictment, a trial or access to a lawyer. When a U.S. District Court ruled in early September of this year in favor of President Bush in the case of Jose Padilla — it struck a major blow at the Constitution, upholding actions by the administration that Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens has said have “created a unique and unprecedented threat to the freedom of every American citizen.” [14]

In September of 2003, Capt. James J. Yee, a 1990 graduate of the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, N.Y., another convert to Islam, who served as an Army Islamic chaplain and counseled prisoners at the Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, naval base, was charged with espionage, aiding the enemy and spying. A year later, all charges against him were dropped. [15]

Few other Muslim members of the Armed forces were similarly harassed on cooked up charges of passing information to terrorists, only to be dropped later. [16]

Most Muslim places of worship are now monitored by the FBI and their informants to unearth Muslim radicalism. However, radical and hate sermons emanating from satellite channels and talk Radio shows, run by fundamentalist and evangelical Christians, are considered quite kosher and are routinely overlooked.

As to the backlash against Muslims in 2005, I provide below some random cases.

The Los Angeles Times in its June 4, 2005 issue reported that a suspicious fire gutted a 1500 square foot mosque in San Barnardino, California. The June 17, 2005 issue of the Washington Post reported that someone left a bag of burned Qur’ans in front of the Islamic Center of Blacksburg, Virginia.

Just three months ago, at the height of controversy over abuse of the Muslim Holy Book by U.S. military guards at the Guantanamo Bay prison, a sign in front of a Baptist church on one of the most traveled highways in the USA (at 2361 U.S. 221 South) read, “The Koran needs to be flushed.” To support the hateful message, its pastor Creighton Lovelace said, “I believe that it is a statement supporting the word of God and that it (the Bible) is above all and that any other religious book that does not teach Christ as savior and lord as the 66 books of the Bible teaches it, is wrong.” [17] He further said that it was the work of God to display the sign and that no one in the church had spoken against it.

The U.S. Congress has yet to name an independent investigative commission similar to the one conducted by the Sept. 11 commission to examine how the Qur’an-abuse occurred in prisons across Guantanamo Bay, Afghanistan and Iraq, and to develop policies to prevent such offensive incidences.

As to witch-hunting, there seems to be no let down against Muslims and their organizations. Almost all of the money exchange and charitable organizations have been shut down, some facing criminal charges of abetting terrorist organizations in the Muslim world. Muslims are afraid to write donation cheques for fear that they may be accused of funneling money to terrorists. Who can deny the influence of Saffron dollars to help poisonous ideologies like Hindutva in India, responsible for so much carnage in the largest democracy on earth? How about funds that are raised by sympathizers of the rogue state Israel, responsible for killing thousands of unarmed Palestinians? But no eyebrows are raised for such fund-raising that kills Muslims overseas.

Just the last week, on Friday morning, September 24, federal agents raided a Muslim campground in Moodus, Connecticut, seizing specimens and seeds from datashak, a plant native to Bangladesh and India. Members of the FBI and U.S. Department of Agriculture said in documents that they also seized 19 computer discs and an assortment of documents from the 18-acre Town Street property, owned by Darul Uloom Shady Brook, Inc. The campground’s caretaker is from Bangladesh, who had cooked meal containing datashak at a recent summer camp, attended by some two dozen Muslim youths.[18]

Soon after the Madrid bombing, Oregon lawyer Brandon Mayfield, a convert to Islam, was arrested in connection with the bombings after being linked by the FBI to a fingerprint found near the scene. After spending two weeks in jail, the FBI acknowledged its mistake and Mayfield was released. He has lately filed a lawsuit in federal court arguing that the federal government targeted him in the wake of the March Madrid train bombings because of his Muslim faith. In his suit, Mayfield challenges the constitutionality of the USA Patriot Act and the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act and says that the government violated his civil rights by searching his home and office, seizing his family's belongings and holding him in jail. [19]

In December 2003, an Arizona newspaper published a very provocative letter from a Tucson resident that urged fellow Americans to kill Muslims to retaliate for the death of American soldiers in Iraq. It read, “Whenever there is an assassination or another atrocity, we should proceed to the closest mosque and execute five of the first Muslims we encounter.” Two Tucson Muslims filed a lawsuit claiming that the letter constituted an assault and an intentional inflection of emotional distress. Interestingly, in July of this year the state Supreme Court in a 5-0 unanimous decision ruled that the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution protected the right of the resident and the paper for the provocative letter.

Just imagine the kind of hullabaloo that would have generated if a Muslim had written a similar piece in any Muslim-majority country urging fellow Muslims to kill (just) one (and not five) Christian(s) for every Muslim killed in Iraq and Afghanistan by the Anglo-American forces. No, I am not surprised with the verdict of the Arizona Supreme Court, but genuinely concerned at how murky the distinction between right and wrong is becoming. Remember how the Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld came to protect the right of free speech of General Boykin? It is these kinds of actions, condoning what most Muslims find offensive, that help breed hate crimes against Muslims. Spiteful and bigoted people take such as a license to do their evil acts. No wonder that there is such a mushrooming of hate literature in public libraries!

For every new post-9/11 book about Islam, available today in most public libraries, there are at least three that are written to vilify the faith and its adherents.[20] The world has not seen the preponderance of such hate literatures since the days of Hitler’s Germany. These hate books are used as arsenal in the contest to subjugate, strike down, compel and crush any Arab and Muslim resistance to western dominance.

And what to make of poisonous sermons and bigoted remarks from spiteful evangelical Christian priests like Pat Robertson, Hagee, Graham and other perverted bishops? [21]

While one can find excuses for the demented and depraved Christian pastor and the Tucson citizen, and also for bigoted and racist priests, ‘9/11-overnight-scholars,’ pen-pushing writers and their greedy publishers, how can one justify the remark of an elected member of the U.S. Congress - the Republican Congressman Tom Tancredo (Colorado) - who in July 2005 called for a nuclear attack on Islam’s holiest sites if there were to be another terrorist attack on the USA? [22]

In the aftermath of the London bombing of July 7, the pressure on Muslim American leadership from the various segments of the American society has been so acutely felt that on July 28, ’05, the Fiqh Council of North America had to issue a fatwa denouncing terrorism. Within a week, some 173 organizations, mosques and imams endorsed the fatwa. This is an interesting development given the fact that no other religious groups had been invoked to do such a thing for the alleged crimes committed by their fellow co-religionists. (Note: In terrorist activities, the Tamil Tigers, comprising Hindu rebels from Sri Lanka, are known to have committed more terrorist activities than any other group. I am not aware if the Vatican was ever swayed to condemning the past activities of the IRA. Interestingly, the United States remains the largest contributor to funding for the IRA.)

However, all is not gloom and doom for Muslims. One major step in improving America’s image in the Muslim world has been President Bush’s decision appointing Karen Hughes. She recently attended the 42nd ISNA conference in Chicago. In her brief talk, Ambassador Hughes elucidated the four E’s of her approach: Education, Empowerment, Engagement and Exchanges. She recognized the need to empower American Muslims so that they could become more effective ambassadors for Islam in America and the US in the Muslim World. She suggested that American Muslims and her department should work together to (1) advance a positive vision of hope and opportunity to the Muslim World, (2) isolate and marginalize forces of intolerance and violence, (3) foster a sense of common intent and common purpose and common values.

Ambassador Hughes recognizes that there are American ideologues who are continually preaching hatred against Islam and Muslims. Her success in public diplomacy in achieving the four goals will largely depend on her ability to keep in check the Islamophobic messages that consistently come from evangelical leaders, conservative talk shows and neoconservative columnists.

im listening to a congressman right now stating that muslims all over the world are dedicated to killing americans and freedom-

are you all living in a vacuum?

back on topic

respectfully soja- i lived the life for many years-

possibly you werent aware that i was responding to a staement- that was defaming the Prphet(pbuh) for living as a householder.(aesetic term for peopleliving in the world)

ive read all these and more-over and again as i do- i have my own perspectives that differ fromwikipedias interpertations (did you know there are 5 different translations of the ramayan in english- one has sita burn!)

and my point wasnt really elaborated on.

for instance- if you read sarada devis writings- you cant help but be touched by the twinge of loneliness she experienced- sometimes i would get quite sad reading her-

this in my experience of having lived both is the superiority of islam-

this is exactly why he is the seal and final Prophet, the last word from god as it were-

because it is the completion of the whole human being- a celibate is a spiritually incomplete experience- one has to truly love another human being (as youve stated above) to learn how to love humanity-

buddha had his place in his time-but we are ready to be complete and holistic beings now-
and for all that he still wasnt a human without sexuality- he was married- were not all born princes with the assurance that we can take off and our families will be provided for-
and there still is something vaguely unsettling about his lack of filial love after he reached enlightenment- ( his behavior was undesirable by the standards humans have set today, that is why i used that word-)

any bond forged in this life has to be honored-
Muhammad(pbuh) showed all humans for all times how to be in constant communion with the god- and still live up to all of our adult repsonsibilities- and best of all-live with each other-

Muhammad(pbuh) aught us how to live with a personal god- in a personal world.

i spent decades personally in that lifestyle-
it was enough- there comes a time to test what is learned- a life lived in pursuing personal salvation results in the self being saved- but i tink the point is broader in regards to humanity-

balance and moderation-

Victoria

In your post (addressed to Ross) 22 March 2007 10:24 AM, you wrote:

“Is celibacy is equivalent to closeness to divine experience?

"I was a novitiate and celibate for a long time ross…

"what about krishna and rama? (the married woman used to leave their husbands to follow krishna to the groves where he would manifest himself into many incarnations so he could enjoy them all simultaneously)

"-what about brahma and vishnu and shiva?

-what about ramakrishna? what about abraham and moses and noah?

"gautami had a wife and children that he left to become the buddha- is that responsible desirable behavior?

"have you ever been to a temple of monks in the spring? i have- and i tell you honestly that human nature being what it is- all that frantic energy repressd into prayer is a manic experience- “

Since you made statements relating to Krishna, Rama, Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva, Ramakrishna, Gautama Buddha, Abraham, Moses, Noah, monks in spring, although not a Hindu myself , nor having any expertise on the subject, as someone born and raised in India, I wanted to add my thoughts, noticing that no Hindu (? Deb Chatterjee) has responded to your post thus far.

You wrote: “Is celibacy equivalent to closeness to divine experience?”

Having mentioned that you were a Franciscan novice/nun for some years, I thought you would know the goal of adopting celibacy and its role in facilitating divine experience well enough. But since you asked anyway, I venture to add my thoughts from the religious perspective. The tradition of celibacy in Buddhism, Catholicism and Hinduism has a definite purpose – to withdraw the senses, concentrate one’s energies, and focus on the spiritual life/practice and to TRANSFORM the powerful sexual energy into spiritual energy. It is merely a means to an end not an end in itself. So Celibacy IN ITSELF is NOT equivalent to closeness to divine experience. You saw some of the effect of celibacy that goes hand in hand with intense spiritual practice when you wrote: “have you (meaning Ross) ever been to a temple of monks in the spring? i have- and i tell you honestly that human nature being what it is- all that frantic energy repressed into prayer is a manic experience-“ Does the Dalai Lama come across to you as wanting in any kind of development because he has been celibate all his life? I am sure you have known healthy and happy nuns and priests yourself as a Franciscan novice for many years. A real calling to celibacy is rare, as you know from your own life. I’m very happy for you that you made the decision to quit a way of life that you were not called to, and are now happily married. It goes without saying that the path of celibacy is extremely hard to practice, and is not suited to everyone, nor is it mandatory for attaining high levels of spiritual enlightenment. However, if practised right, it remains a valid tool to enhance the spiritual practise one chooses to follow. Even from a strictly energy and time management point of view, real celibacy (which includes the heart, intentions and thought in addition to the body) leaves the senses free to focus on other things. In real life it seems that to many, such celibacy outside one's committed relationship is hard enough to practice. So the single life is not a prerequiste for spiritual progress, and should not be mandated, and it never is.

From the time the Bhagavad-Gita was written (500 – 50 BC), it was recognised that one could live as a householder and still attain God realisation by worshipping God and living a life as described in the Bhagavad-Gita, without withdrawing from the world and living a celibate life. Judaism as you know did not have the tradition of celibacy either.

You wrote: “what about krishna and rama? (the married woman used to leave their husbands to follow krishna to the groves where he would manifest himself into many incarnations so he could enjoy them all simultaneously)
-what about brahma and vishnu and shiva?”

Although Wikipedia should not be considered equivalent to a peer reviewed publication, it does provide some valuable information. So please look it up for further details if you choose. I’m only note a couple of points here.

Brahman, Vishnu, Shiva, Rama and Krishna are all considered gods in Hinduism, not prophets or human beings. Whatever is written about them should hence be interpreted from a mythological/symbolic perspective.

• RAMA and Sita are the protagonists in one of the most famous love stories of all time. Described as being deeply in love, Sita and Rama are theologically understood as avatars of Lakshmi and Vishnu respectively. Rama and his wife Sita are considered the model for Hindu couples. Both loved each other exclusively in a monogamous lifelong relationship. “The epic Ramayana, written between 500-100 BC tells the story. Rāmāyana is not just an ordinary story. It contains the teachings of ancient Hindu sages and presents them through allegory in narrative and the interspersion of the philosophical and the devotional. The characters of Rama, Sita, Lakshmana, Bharata, Hanumān and Rāvana (the villain of the piece) are all fundamental to the cultural consciousness of India.”

• “Rāmachandra, Śrī Rāma was a king of ancient India whose grand story is portrayed in the epic Ramayana, one of the two great epics of India. In Hinduism, he is also considered to be the Seventh Avatara of Vishnu and one of the most important manifestations of God. He is one of the most popular heroes of Hindu mythology and folktales in South and Southeast Asia. Born as the eldest son of Kausalya and Dasaratha, king of Kosala, he is the embodiment of the Supreme Brahman and Dharma. Rama is Maryada Purushottama, literally The Perfect Man. He is the hero of the ancient Hindu epic poem, The Ramayana (from Sanskrit, The Journey of Rama). Rama is the husband of Sita, who is also considered the Avatara of Lakshmi and the embodiment of perfect womanhood. Rama's life and journey is one of perfect adherence of dharma despite harsh tests of life and time.”

• KRISHNA appears in the epic Mahabharata (written between 9th and 5th century BC), and is the main character in the most important Hindu Scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita. The reference to relationships in other writings about Krishna supposedly describe symbolically the drawing of the soul to God in an amorous way and should not interpreted as a human male encouraging married women to leave their husbands in order for him to “enjoy them all simultaneously“ in a physical sense. The Gopis referred to are maidens, not married women.

• “Krishna is a deity famously worshipped throughout the traditions of Hinduism. He is usually depicted as a young cowherd boy playing a flute (based on depictions in the Bhagavata Purana) or a youthful prince giving philosophical direction (as in Bhagavad Gita).”

• “Most commonly within Hinduism, Krishna is worshipped as an avatar of Vishnu, who is considered the Supreme God by the Vaishnava schools. Within Gaudiya Vaishnavism Krishna is worshipped as the source of all other avatars (including Vishnu).”

• “Krishna and the stories associated with him appear across the broad spectrum of Hindu philosophical and theological traditions. Though they sometimes differ in details reflecting the concerns of a particular tradition, some core features are shared by all. These include a divine incarnation, a pastoral childhood and youth, and life as a heroic warrior and teacher.”

• BRAMA (not to be mistaken with the Absolute Brahman) is an unpopular god and not worshipped.

• SHIVA (consort Parvathi) is believed to be a formless, timeless and spaceless Supreme God.

• VISHNU (consort Lakshmi) known as Narayana is the Supreme Being or Ultimate Reality for Vaishnavas and a manifestation of Brahman in the Advaita or Smarta traditions of Hinduism.

Ramakrishna Paramahamsa is the guru of the world famous Vivekanda (BTW both Bengalis like Deb Chatterjee must be). There is nothing to suggest that he was a man of loose morals or had several wives/sexual partners

• “Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, born Gadadhar Chattopadhyay, (February 18, 1836–August 16, 1886) was a Hindu religious teacher and an influential figure in the Bengal Renaissance of the Nineteenth century. His teachings emphasized God-realization as the highest goal of life, love and devotion for God, the oneness of existence, and the harmony of religions.
• Rumors spread to Kamarpukur that Ramakrishna had gone mad as a result of his over-taxing spiritual exercises at Dakshineswar. Alarmed, neighbors advised Ramakrishna’s mother that he be persuaded to marry, so that he might be more conscious of his responsibilities to the family.
• Sarada, his child bride was Ramakrishna's first disciple. He attempted to teach her everything he had learned from his various gurus. She is believed to have mastered every religious secret as quickly as Ramakrishna had. Impressed by her religious potential, he began to treat her as the Universal Mother Herself and performed a puja considering Sarada as veritable Tripura Sundari Devi. He said, 'I look upon you as my own mother and the Mother who is in the temple'. Ramakrishna impressed upon Sarada Devi that she was not only the mother of his young disciples, but also of all humanity. Her renunciation is believed by devotees to be a striking quality that she shared with her husband in a measure equal to, if not beyond, his. The true nature of their relationship and kinship was believed to be beyond the grasp of ordinary minds. Ramakrishna concluded, after close and constant association with her, that her relationship and attitude toward him were firmly based on a divine spiritual plane. Devotees believe that as they shared their daily lives, no other thought other than that of the divine presence, arose in their minds.”

Re Abraham, Moses and Noah: don't they belong as much in the Quran and Thora as in the Bible? Didn't Jesus make it clear when asked about divorce, that from the beginning God meant for couples to be like Adam and Eve, lifelong companions (without polygamy or divorce), and it was hardness of human heart that changed that practice in the Old Testament days, not a change in God's plan? Adultery was the only valid ground Jesus gave for initiating divorce. When a man and woman are deeply in love, without following any instruction from any religion, don't they both feel complete without missing a third person? Isn't that the proof that God meant it to be that way, and all other variations of relationships are only due to the hardness of human heart (insatiable false ego needs) rather than a legitimate human need? (Aside, when I see couples who have been happily married for many years, I stand in awe of that relationship as before a great artistic maserpiece, for that is what a true love relationship is.)

You wrote, “gautami had a wife and children that he left to become the buddha- is that responsible desirable behavior?”

Gautama Buddha did abandon his wife and only child to go in search of enlightenment. For whatever reason in the spiritual scheme of things, one is allowed to forsake one’s worldly connections and go in search of God, in order to love and serve the greater family of humanity selflessly as God's instrument. Anyway Gautama’s “irresponsible and undesirable behaviour” helped found a very powerful religion. Didn’t Jesus also ask His disciples to forsake everything and everyone and follow Him, and many Catholics do that literally by becoming nuns and priests, and at one time, however short that might have been, you did feel a similar calling and choose to follow it?

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

well angry people, so what?

go outside- its spring-

do ross or deb or any other angry ones imagine this is changing any hearts?

if someone is inclined toward anger- or looking for hate or violence- they will vibrate and resonate with your messages-

if someone is looking for enlightenment and a superior code of living they will find that too-

bleeding heart liberals?

im starting to think youre some old white guy in texas deb-

mercy you guys- go write a poem- or fall inlove or something-
life is just too short! bounce bounce bounce bou

Abdul, as usual, fulminated thus:

"HERE IS MY QUESTION TO EVERY ONE HERE, HOW MANY OF YOU HAVE READ THE QORAN, LET ME SEE HOW MANY REALLY DID, AND HOW MANY OF YOU BELONGS TO 700 CLUB AND HOW MANY TO 666 CLUB?"

I have read the three English translations of the Quran (as it is on the USC MSA website). The translations are by Marmaduke Pickthall, Abdullah Yusuf Ali and Shakir, verse for verse for each and every surah (114 of them in all). Each of them is prefaced by Syed Maulana Abul Ala Maudoodi's tafseer or (learned) commentary which is to show what the meaning of the various sections of the verses and the surahs mean and what can be derived from them if one is to know what Islam is - from Muslim sources.

The site is run by Muslims and information is also gathered from authentic Muslim sources, not some Jo Blo academic comfy-sitting at some desk in some remote office in an equally obscure university campus. These academics write papers for their own gain to get funded and the funding comes from terrorist-sponsoring countries like Saudi Arabia. Good !

The scholars from whom these translations and the explanatory information are documented at the USC-MSA website, have NOT been discredited in any form. So, my (and similar others) knowledge of Islam is from authentic sources as per USC-MSA website. (Other websites have been cited by the various defenders of faith (Islam), but none of these cited websites have disagreed with the main contents of the USC-MSA website.)

The most chilling fact to learn about Islam is that Islam is not a religion of peace - quite contrary to what the scholars and academics say on a repeated basis on various forums. (This is from the USC-MSA website.)

Actually these pan-Islamic academics and the bleeding heart liberals are the major source of the problem.

And just visit the website that Ross has cited; Islam, as found in the website of a former Muslim (Ali Sina), does appear as a barbaric religion.

I have read the sources and concluded that all human beings must reject Islam. Only then the world shall see peace.

P.S.: Use Google to find the USC-MSA website. I do not belong to the 700 or 666 club. Though I cannot see what's wrong with those clubs compared to the 1.6 billion membership in the club of Islam ?

My point was the child was being cause "Osama, American-hater and terrorist", which is more in line with the Jewish community than the African-American community. I have never heard blacks being called these types of names whereas Jews have been. The article, had it used this anology, it would have made more sense.

Abdul,

I prefer to think and use my brains than to blindly follow any ideology. Just because you are dependent on religion why do assume everyone has to have a religion ?
What makes you think I am a christian evangelist or follow any religion at all ?

All your Allah can offer those you bow before him are 72 houris, even after I die I would prefer to increase my knowledge to serve mankind.

to discuss further you are most welcome to
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/

well quivcera youre entitled to your opinion-

and i challenge you to find one instance of bashing another religion-
or even presenting one in an unfavorable light-

or personal attacks or observations even when overtly attacked
as for personal observations, well youre entitled to that too- and my writing style is my own and while subject to your critique- is not likely to change.

im in a mulsim panelists question- so ill continue to express myself as i see fit- in a mannerly and passionate fashion- thanks for the input although i tend not to give much credence to unsubstantiated claims-

but i take great offense at you saying im being deceitful in my question about dhimmitude

if you went to the israel qustion to a jewish panelists repsonse and suggested to jewish people that their own discrimination was brought on themselves- and told hasidic jews their cultural dress made them deserved targets-

well- we both know you wouldnt do that- but you seem quite comfortablemaking such an unwarranted accusation here-

this is america- you have a right to express yourself as do i-

PAULA- im sorry for your troubles- since this is the ONLY question on these boards that deal with muslim discrimination- that would be the reason that it is dealt with here-

there is an entire question devoted to anti-semitism- while this is only one response within an entire question- its a tight space and a big subject to fill it- so were expressing ourselves here-

i lived in chicago for 5 years and just moved from there- and on the south side too-
there is a large african american muslim population there-

he is relating an experience based on the injustice of it and to illustrate how discriination has children who are victims of what the adults are doing-
any racism implied is your projection

abdul i have posted at length on zionism in the question on israel- there are many many interesting and substantiated articles there-

Paula you must know the difference between JEWS and ZIONISTS, Still today in this time of hatred real jews and muslim live side by side in many countries, just get your facts straight.

and BTW the Nazis killed more Jews than Muslims in the entire history books.

And what you say it true about muslims then why did the Jews choose to create Isreal oout of no where but next to muslims by taking their property their rights and imprisoning generations after generations in camps and commit atrocities on women and children. After centuries if the Zionist think they have the right of return to the promise land then WHY ARE THEY DENYING PALESTINIANS OF THEIR RIGHTS TO RETURN TO THEIR PROPERTIES AND THEIR OWN LANDS.

This is for you ROSS, in my culture there is a saying it goes like this:

"YOU CANNOT STRAIGHTEN OUT A DOG CURVED TAIL EVEN IF YOU PUT IT IN A STEEL CAST FOR TWELVE YEARS"

You dont learn do you, the most unfortunate person is the one who is ignorant, you are that blessed ignorant who was offered illumination of knowledge by the Lord Almighty but you still prefer to stay ignorant and spill the filth from your mouth rather than you know where..........
steel cast dont work on you it a fact.

HERE IS MY QUESTION TO EVERY ONE HERE, HOW MANY OF YOU HAVE READ THE QORAN, LET ME SEE HOW MANY REALLY DID, AND HOW MANY OF YOU BELONGS TO 700 CLUB AND HOW MANY TO 666 CLUB?

make sure to answer this question each and everyone of you who writes so we know who is intelligent enough and who is just forwarding messages by Jerry falwell and Pat robertson.

This has been happening to the Jewish population for centuries. I notice you failed to mention this fact in your article. Is it because Muslims dislike the Jews? Muslims are taught in schools that Jews are pigs and monkeys, this fact was verified by the school teachers in February of this year. Jews were called Christ killer and much worse, they were exterminated in the thousands. But you chose to mirror what happened to this womans son to the black cause. Why is that? Is it because the racism against blacks is a popular cause? Had you spoken of the similarities of Jewish racism to what is sometimes happening to some Muslims, I might have believed you. As it stands, this is just another bogus whining of the Muslim community.

Victoria:

I did not insinuate that Muslims deserve the prejudice lobbed their way, nor did I say that wearing hijab invites abuse. I merely pointed out that a) a certain amount of prejudice seems to be inevitable when the perceived differences between one group of people and another in a society is large; b) the more different an individual appears to be from the majority norm, the more likely that he/she will be the target of prejudice; and c) by western ethical standards, there is much within the Qu'ran, the hadith, and Islamic history that is repugnant. None of this "justifies" prejudice against Muslims, but it does serve to put things into a rational perspective.

I find some of your other statements questionable. First, it is highly unlikely that Muslims "invented" sociology. The origins of this particular social science are obscure, but almost surely go back to late classical, pre-Islamic times. The predeliction of Islam to overtake a geographic area, then attribute all of the cultural innovations associated with that region to Islam, is one of the less appealing facets of this religion. Second, speak only to what you know. I have seen Muslims pray in public areas of this country in many places, including parks, hospitals, school playgrounds, and skating rinks. It happens, although I suspect that more circumspect Muslims avoid this. Naturally there is nothing wrong with a Muslim praying, but praying in public DOES attract a lot of attention. It is especially uncomfortable for Christians, as their Bible enjoins them to close their doors and pray in private, so that their piety is rewarded by God rather than public opinion. Finally, you ask where the status of dhimmi exists in the modern world. That is a deceitful question. The LEGAL status of dhimmitude has been abolished throughout the world (under the influence of colonialism and/or international pressure) but the SOCIAL status is firmly entrenched. The harrassment of Jewish, Christian, Buddhist, Parsi, and Hindu minorities in predominantly Muslim areas is well-documented from Indonesia to Algeria. Non-Muslim businesses are vandalized, non-Muslim girls are forcibly married to Muslim men, non-Muslim children abducted and brought up as Muslims. Or consider the recent case of the Hindu mountain-climber in Malaysia. The government insisted on giving him a Muslim burial, over the strenuous objections of his wife, on the grounds that he had converted. There was no evidence of this conversion. In Egypt I knew a Coptic Christian family whose house had been burglarized by their neighbors four times in two years. Even though they knew who had robbed them, the police refused to investigate the case, because the burglars were Muslim and the Copts were not. In most of these types of cases the perpetrators get off scott-free because their accusers are not Muslims, therefore their word carries little weight in a court of law. The STATUS of dhimmitude is alive and well.

As for your own experience with prejudice against Muslims - a Muslim friend of mine wonders how much of that is something you are bringing upon yourself. According to Sa'id, many American converts have an in-your-face approach to proseletyzing that is counterproductive, to say the least. You deride the note of "desperation" you detect from Christian apologists as they defend their faith. Have you considered the tone of your own contributions here? They range from
condescending to shrill and strident. You also engage in a fair amount of religion-bashing of your own. And in all of your many writings you have pretty much skirted the issue of what should be done about prejudice against Muslims. Instead, you've used this forum as a soapbox for Islamic apologetics.

One final thought. What is the rationale behind your ee cummings style of writing? The rather haphazard delivery I've encountered in this forum is understandable in those whose native tongue is not English, but I'm sure you were trained in grammar and punctuation. A few typos are understandable, but an entire diatribe delivered without even a nod to the elements of style makes your arguments hard to read, and detracts from your message. The laissez-faire mode is fine for chat rooms, but inappropriate for a forum of this nature. Take a hint from Eboo Patel himself. His essay was polished and cogent.

Wishing you the best.

Quicreva

Who said celibacy ? One does not have to be a celibate. I dont recall mentioning celibacy in my post.

What i meant was elimination of vices like greed, lust, pride, envy.

You are trying to distort love and lust here, how on earth did Mo have true love for his 13+ wives and concubines ?

Your prophet never lived this "strict" way. All he really did was raid, kill, fight wars, force people to pray and enjoy women of all ages. How can one call that strict.

Victoria wrote:
what about krishna and rama? (the married woman used to leave their husbands to follow krishna to the groves where he would manifest himself into many incarnations so he could enjoy them all simultaneously)

Is that how you justify Mo having multiple wives and concubines ? Infact Mo was worse, he killed the husband before marrying the women.

Victoria wrote:
but im still amazed you equate my freedom to love my husband as a srrict system on one hand- and then go to denounce the Prophet(pbuh) for living n this 'strict' way?

How on earth did you reach that conclusion from my post? perhaps you confuse true love with lust.

It was adopted by the General Assembly of the United Nations on December 10,1948 Ross-

to you celibacy is equivalent to closeness to divine experience?

and youre telling ME i love a strict system!

i was a novitiate and celibate for a long time ross-

there is no moral superiority in closing oneself off to ones sexuality-

what about krishna and rama? (the married woman used to leave their husbands to follow krishna to the groves where he would manifest himself into many incarnations so he could enjoy them all simultaneously)
what about brahma and vishnu and shiva?

what about ramakrishna? what about abraham and moses and noah?

gautami had a wife and children that he left to becme the buddha- is that responsible desirable behavior?

so youre reasoning is that living as a holistic human being and an example for other humans-
this invalidates somehow the mission of the prophet?

and to renounce the loving of another human is the way to love?

ok- but i dont agree-

have you ever been to a temple of monks in the spring?

i have- and i tell you honestly that human nature being what it is- all that frantic energy repressd into prayer is a manic experience-

so im still happy with islam ross-

but im still amazed you equate my freedom to love my husband as a srrict system on one hand- and then go to denounce the Prophet(pbuh) for living n this 'strict' way?

rethink this one ross

thank you- bouncy was meant to uplift

Victoria wrote,

why would i renounce islam?
i love it!

You probably love the strict system enforced by islam. There is no concept of love for allah in islam. Simply put, there is no Allah OR if he exists he is not God. No one has ever received any message from him other the Mo.
People who have had a divine experience or who yearn God's presence mostly end up renouncing worldly vices like lust, pride, greed etc. The guru's or sanysins in hinduism, the monk of christianity or buddhism are good examples. Famous name here are buddha, Mahavira, John the baptist, St. Paul, Guru Nanak etc.

So why was Mo the opposite after receiving these revelations ? He is not alone though there are others in category like David koresh, Jim Jones, Bhagwan Rajneesh, Charles Manson etc, All of them started indulging in worldly pleasures after their divine experience.

Why is Mo not in the first category ?

You need to do some serious soul searching.

Victoria wrote,
ROSS- youre so crazy

Victoria,
your are the one posting meaningless posts like
"The Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the Quran" , this declaration is meant for countries and it is the islamic governments around the world that are furtherest away from from implementing them. Why dont you sent it to their embassies instead ?

I think your b o u n c y thing was cute though !

i dont follow you deb, what?

i dont know any mullahs- did you mean creed?

why would i renounce islam?

i love it!

o i saw your question pablo-

do i believe the whole world should be muslim one day?

it would be nice for me-

do i believe that the whole world WILL be muslim one day?

you know thats interesting- i was reading the quran and i came upon a passage that said one day all will become muslims in the world-

but that would be as ALLAH leads people- not people doing it-

if god wills it- it would be a beautiful thing-

but pablo- its hard for some to imagine because they have a false idea of what islam is- so it sounds terrible to them- it would sound terrible to me too- if i thought some of the horrific ideas ive heard misunderstood on these boards and fox news alone-

but the real islam?
the vibrant worship of ALLAH
all the people in the world saying the same words of praise in the same language in the same key!

all unified in purpose and intent and heart and mind and body and song.

that would be a most extraordinary thing

its like how i imagine the angels who are constantly worshipping ALLAH -

but with will and purpose and strength and accord and harmony-

but no human can force such a thing to be-
no no no- it has to be from each individuals thirst for connection to ALLAH- yes yes yes

a completely and totally naturally occurrence

its not like a competition thing

its something ALLAH will orchestrate as s/he sees fit-

also there is no concept of gender specificity when it comes to god- no male or female-

was that your challenge?

challenges are so confrontational-

there will be no confrontation in such an event

only the confrontation of the soul asking itself and the heart polishing itself to reflect the god

ok?

so how did you enjoy the human rights docuent i submitted?

did it give you a clearer idea of what islam really is?
i hope so-

ok then- hope that was what you were asking

peace all

by the way- that bouncy looked really great when i made it it had curlicues and made an intersting pattern that got lost in the post-

ROSS- youre so crazy
peace all

Victoria:

I think that your renouncing Islam is far easier in USA than to regurgitate the screed that some foolish mullah had asked you to do on the WP forum.

Dear Mr Patel

It is saddening to hear that in a country with a Christian majority there is irrational fear of Muslims because of the violent actions of a few. All religions can "boast" of such people, who have misused religion and brought shame to the religion as a whole. It is my hope that the work you and other Muslims are doing towards portraying the spiritual wealth of Islam, and the willingness of people of other faiths to open their eyes to the great contribution of Islam to world culture (think of Taj Mahal among others), your inter-faith work, and the education about religions that is being proposed, will gradually change the outlook of non-Muslims towards Muslims. Yes, even as an Indian-Australian, as one who feels like a member of the global family, it is my fervent wish that your child, and other Muslim children (as all minority groups) will grow up in a society that respects all religions. I have found that most intolerance and hatred comes from ignorance - spiritual and otherwise. You are lucky to be living in the US which has the genius to learn and adopt new ways quickly.

Wishing you and your wife the birth of a healthy baby and much joy in your fatherhood!

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

In the Name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the Quran

By Omar Edaibat

Al-Jazeerah, April 30, 2004

The following is the Universal Declaration of Human Rights that was adopted on December 10, 1948 by the General Assembly of the United Nations. The attempt of this analysis is to show how each of the fundamental human rights guaranteed in this declaration were already established in the Holy Quran.
Universal Declaration of Human Rights
Preamble

Whereas recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world,

Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of the common people,

Whereas it is essential, if man is not to be compelled to have recourse, as a last resort, to rebellion against tyranny and oppression, that human rights should be protected by the rule of law,

Whereas it is essential to promote the development of friendly relations between nations,

Whereas the peoples of the United Nations have in the Charter reaffirmed their faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person and in the equal rights of men and women and have determined to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom,

Whereas Member States have pledged themselves to achieve, in cooperation with the United Nations, the promotion of universal respect for and observance of human rights and fundamental freedoms,

Whereas a common understanding of these rights and freedoms is of the greatest importance for the full realization of this pledge,

Now, therefore,

The General Assembly,

Proclaims this Universal Declaration of Human Rights as a common standard of achievement for all peoples and all nations, to the end that every individual and every organ of society, keeping this Declaration constantly in mind, shall strive by teaching and education to promote respect for these rights and freedoms and by progressive measures, national and international, to secure their universal and effective recognition and observance, both among the peoples of Member States themselves and among the peoples of territories under their jurisdiction.
Article 1

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

The Quran also reiterates our common humanity and equality:

[3:95] Their Lord responded to them: "I never fail to reward any worker among you for any work you do, be you male or female - you are equal to one another.…

[4:25] … GOD knows best about your belief, and you are equal to one another, as far as belief is concerned…

[17:70] We have honored the children of Adam, and provided them with rides on land and in the sea. We provided for them good provisions, and we gave them greater advantages than many of our creatures.
Article 2

Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status.

Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

The Quran repeatedly explains that it is the human factor which divides us from uniting under our common Creator and Sustainer. It is the human factor which splits us into sects and divides us along superficial lines, pitting us against one another. We are all members of the same community in the eyes of God, and the only quality that distinguishes one above the other is our level of righteousness. Hence, the Quranic injunction not to differentiate between God’s messengers and to commemorate God Alone:

[2:62] Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who (1) believes in GOD, and (2) believes in the Last Day, and (3) leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

[2:136] Say, "We believe in GOD, and in what was sent down to us, and in what was sent down to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Patriarchs; and in what was given to Moses and Jesus, and all the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction among any of them. To Him alone we are submitters."

[49:13] O people, we created you from the same male and female, and rendered you distinct peoples and tribes that you may recognize one another. The best among you in the sight of GOD is the most righteous. GOD is Omniscient, Cognizant.
Article 3

Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

[17:33] You shall not kill any person - for GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. If one is killed unjustly, then we give his heir authority to enforce justice. Thus, he shall not exceed the limits in avenging the murder, he will be helped.

[2:191] You may kill those who wage war against you, and you may evict them whence they evicted you. Oppression is worse than murder…

[7:157] …He exhorts them to be righteous, enjoins them from evil, allows for them all good food, and prohibits that which is bad, and unloads the burdens and the shackles imposed upon them. Those who believe in him, respect him, support him, and follow the light that came with him are the successful ones."

The Quran goes as far as urging us to take whatever measures necessary to ensure that the fundamental Human Rights of others are met:

[4:75] Why should you not fight in the cause of GOD when weak men, women, and children are imploring: "Our Lord, deliver us from this community whose people are oppressive, and be You our Lord and Master."
Article 4

No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.

When the Quran was revealed slavery was in wide practice throughout the Arab World. Thus, it would have been impractical and suicidal to place an immediate ban on all forms of slavery. The Quran uses a better psychological approach to win people’s hearts in the struggle against slavery and all forms of discrimination by placing a strong emphasis on human dignity and equality and encouraging the freeing of slaves, for if we are all equal then slavery cannot be justified:

[90:10-14] Did we not show him the two paths? He should choose the difficult path. Which one is the difficult path? The freeing of slaves. Feeding, during the time of hardship.

[2:177] Righteousness is not turning your faces towards the east or the west. Righteous are those who believe in GOD, the Last Day, the angels, the scripture, and the prophets; and they give the money, cheerfully, to the relatives, the orphans, the needy, the traveling alien, the beggars, and to free the slaves;…

[9:60] Charities shall go to the poor, the needy, the workers who collect them, the new converts, to free the slaves, to those burdened by sudden expenses, in the cause of GOD, and to the traveling alien. Such is GOD's commandment. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.
Article 5

No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

In the Quan, we are constantly reminded to take heed from the lessons of history and are sensitized to the gross evils of tyranny. The lack of mercy is also condemned:

[28:4] Pharaoh turned into a tyrant on earth, and discriminated against some people. He persecuted a helpless group of them, slaughtering their sons, while sparing their daughters. He was indeed wicked.

[2:191] You may kill those who wage war against you, and you may evict them whence they evicted you. Oppression is worse than murder…

[26:130] "And when you strike, you strike mercilessly.
Article 6

Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.

A philosophy in which we are all equal before our common Creator and Provider reassures us of deferential and equal treatment before the law, irrespective of where we may be:

[35:10] Anyone seeking dignity should know that to GOD belongs all dignity. To Him ascends the good words, and He exalts the righteous works. As for those who scheme evil works, they incur severe retribution; the scheming of such people is destined to fail.
Article 7

All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.

[4:25] …GOD knows best about your belief, and you are equal to one another, as far as belief is concerned…

[4:135] O you who believe, you shall be absolutely equitable, and observe GOD, when you serve as witnesses, even against yourselves, or your parents, or your relatives. Whether the accused is rich or poor, GOD takes care of both. Therefore, do not be biased by your personal wishes. If you deviate or disregard (this commandment), then GOD is fully Cognizant of everything you do.

The following Quranic narration highlights how important it is to give everyone the same respect and attention irrespective of one’s socioeconomic background:

[80:1-11] He (Muhammad) frowned and turned away when the blind man came to him (seeking guidance). How do you know? He may purify himself. Or he may take heed, and benefit from the message. As for the rich man, you gave him your attention. Even though you could not guarantee his salvation. The one who came to you eagerly and is really reverent, you ignored him. Indeed, this is a reminder.
Article 8

Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.

The Quran encourages mercy and forgiveness whenever possible but decrees equivalent punishment as a fundamental right guarnateed to the victim:

[2:178] O you who believe, equivalence is the law decreed for you when dealing with murder - the free for the free, the slave for the slave, the female for the female. If one is pardoned by the victim's kin, an appreciative response is in order, and an equitable compensation shall be paid. This is an alleviation from your Lord and mercy. Anyone who transgresses beyond this incurs a painful retribution.

[16:126] And if you punish, you shall inflict an equivalent punishment. But if you resort to patience (instead of revenge), it would be better for the patient ones.
Article 9

No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.

We are constantly warned not to be overly suspicious of others without incriminating evidence. Such attitudes only bring about unjustified hostility and harm towards the accused:

[49:12] O you who believe, you shall avoid any suspicion, for even a little bit of suspicion is sinful. You shall not spy on one another, nor shall you backbite one another; this is as abominable as eating the flesh of your dead brother. You certainly abhor this. You shall observe GOD. GOD is Redeemer, Most Merciful.

Article 10

Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.

Certainly, the Quran highlights the need for imparitality on all matters within the community:

[2:143] We thus made you an impartial community, that you may serve as witnesses among the people, and the messenger serves as a witness among you….
Article 11

1. Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.
2. No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.

See relevant verses above.
Article 12

No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

The Quran also highlights the need to ensure our privacy as individuals. For example, we see the Quranic injunction not to marry women who were previously married to our fathers. This rule ensures that we do not interfere with the private experiences and intimate thoughts that our fathers shared with their wives:

[33:53] O you who believe, do not enter the prophet's homes unless you are given permission to eat, nor shall you force such an invitation in any manner. If you are invited, you may enter. When you finish eating, you shall leave; do not engage him in lengthy conversations. This used to hurt the prophet, and he was too shy to tell you. But GOD does not shy away from the truth. If you have to ask his wives for something, ask them from behind a barrier. This is purer for your hearts and their hearts. You are not to hurt the messenger of GOD. You shall not marry his wives after him, for this would be a gross offense in the sight of GOD.

-----------------------------------------

*33:53 We are enjoined in 4:22 from marrying women who were previously married to our fathers. Nor can the father marry the divorced wife of his genetic son (4:23). This divine commandment preserves our respect for our fathers and their most private affairs. Similarly, the prophet was a father figure to the believers of his time. For the good of those believers, God enjoined them from marrying women who were previously married to the prophet. Marriage is a sacred and very private relationship, and the prophet's private life was better kept private.

[24:58] O you who believe, permission must be requested by your servants and the children who have not attained puberty (before entering your rooms). This is to be done in three instances - before the Dawn Prayer, at noon when you change your clothes to rest, and after the Night Prayer. These are three private times for you. At other times, it is not wrong for you or them to mingle with one another. GOD thus clarifies the revelations for you. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.

Privacy of the individual is emphasized:

[24:2729] O you who believe, do not enter homes other than yours without permission from their inhabitants, and without greeting them. This is better for you, that you may take heed. If you find no one in them, do not enter them until you obtain permission. If you are told, "Go back," you must go back. This is purer for you. GOD is fully aware of everything you do. You commit no error by entering uninhabited homes wherein there is something that belongs to you. GOD knows everything you reveal, and everything you conceal.

The reputation of the individual must be protected from all forms of unjustified attack or slander:

[104:1] Woe to every backbiter, slanderer.
Article 13

1. Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each State.
2. Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

The Quran gurantees the right of the oppressed to emigrate in the cause of God (the course of justice) and to rebel against all forms of oppression:

[4:100] Anyone who emigrates in the cause of God will find on earth great bounties and richness.

[4:97] Those whose lives are terminated by the angels, while in a state of wronging their souls, the angels will ask them, "What was the matter with you?" They will say, "We were oppressed on earth." They will say, "Was GOD's earth not spacious enough for you to emigrate therein?"….
Article 14

1. Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.
2. This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

See above.
Article 15

1. Everyone has the right to a nationality.
2. No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

A respect for all cultures as members of the one universal humanity is recognized throught the Quran:

[5:48] …Had GOD willed, He could have made you one congregation. But He thus puts you to the test through the revelations He has given each of you. You shall compete in righteousness. To GOD is your final destiny - all of you - then He will inform you of everything you had disputed.

[49:13] O people, we created you from the same male and female, and rendered you distinct peoples and tribes, that you may recognize one another. The best among you in the sight of GOD is the most righteous. GOD is Omniscient, Cognizant.

Article 16

1. Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.
2. Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.
3. The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.

The sanctity of the family is clearly recognized, with a strong emphasis on the need to reconcile relationships equitably. The Quran also guranteed women with divorce rights at a time when their subordination was the traditional norm:

[25:54] He is the One who created from water a human being, then made him reproduce through marriage and mating. Your Lord is Omnipotent.

[30:21] Among His proofs is that He created for you spouses from among yourselves, in order to have tranquility and contentment with each other, and He placed in your hearts love and care towards your spouses. In this, there are sufficient proofs for people who think.

[2:102]…These two did not divulge such knowledge without pointing out: "This is a test. You shall not abuse such knowledge." But the people used it in such evil schemes as the breaking up of marriages….

[4:129] You can never be equitable in dealing with more than one wife, no matter how hard you try. Therefore, do not be so biased as to leave one of them hanging (neither enjoying marriage, nor left to marry someone else). If you correct this situation and maintain righteousness, GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

[2:241] The divorcees also shall be provided for, equitably. This is a duty upon the righteous.

[4:35] If a couple fears separation, you shall appoint an arbitrator from his family and an arbitrator from her family; if they decide to reconcile, GOD will help them get together. GOD is Omniscient, Cognizant.

Article 17

1. Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.
2. No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.

Our right to property is clearly spelled out:

[2:05] As soon as he leaves, he roams the earth corruptingly, destroying properties and lives. GOD does not love corruption.

[65:1] O you prophet, when you people divorce the women, you shall ensure that a divorce interim is fulfilled. You shall measure such an interim precisely. You shall reverence GOD your Lord. Do not evict them from their homes, nor shall you make life miserable for them, to force them to leave on their own, unless they commit a proven adultery. These are GOD's laws. Anyone who transgresses GOD's laws commits an injustice against himself. You never know; maybe GOD wills something good to come out of this.

[4:2] You shall hand over to the orphans their rightful properties. Do not substitute the bad for the good, and do not consume their properties by combining them with yours. This would be a gross injustice.

[4:6] You shall test the orphans when they reach puberty. As soon as you find them mature enough, give them their property. Do not consume it extravagantly in a hurry, before they grow up…

[4:29] O you who believe, do not consume each others' properties illicitly - only mutually acceptable transactions are permitted. You shall not kill yourselves. GOD is Merciful towards you.

[38:24] He said, "He is being unfair to you by asking to combine your sheep with his. Most people who combine their properties treat each other unfairly, except those who believe and work righteousness, and these are so few." Afterwards, David wondered if he made the right judgment. He thought that we were testing him. He then implored his Lord for forgiveness, bowed down, and repented.

[59:8] (You shall give) to the needy who immigrated. They were evicted from their homes and deprived of their properties, because they sought GOD's grace and pleasure, and because they supported GOD and His messenger. They are the truthful.
Article 18

Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

Unlike most traditional Islamic societies, the Quran guarantees each idividual complete freedom of religion:

[2:256] There shall be no compulsion in religion: the right way is now distinct from the wrong way. Anyone who denounces the devil and believes in GOD has grasped the strongest bond; one that never breaks. GOD is Hearer, Omniscient.
Article 19

Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

Here we see how each individual must be ensured of the right to his own beliefs and way of life:

[18:29] Proclaim: "This is the truth from your Lord," then whoever wills let him believe, and whoever wills let him disbelieve.....
Article 20

1. Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.
2. No one may be compelled to belong to an association.

Compelling others to accept your own beliefs and values is a completely alien concept to the Quran. We are each free to choose our own associations and paths in life. Infact the Quran even recognizes that there is more than one path to God:

[2:62] Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who (1) believes in GOD, and (2) believes in the Last Day, and (3) leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

[2:148] Each of you chooses the direction to follow; you shall race towards righteousness. Wherever you may be, GOD will summon you all. GOD is Omnipotent.

Thus, what we believe is our own individual choice and nobody has the right to interfere with our own personal decisions so long as they do not infringe on the rights of others.
Article 21

1. Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.
2. Everyone has the right to equal access to public service in his country.
3. The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.

Consensus and public accountability to the public in all policymaking is the Quranic standard:

[42:38] They respond to their Lord by observing the Contact Prayers (Salat). Their affairs are decided after due consultation among themselves, and from our provisions to them they give (to charity).

[39:18] They are the ones who examine all words, then follow the best. These are the ones whom GOD has guided; these are the ones who possess intelligence.
Article 22

Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.

In the Quran, we clearly see the emphasis on a need for consensus, co-operation and on a compassionate approach to ensure the satisfaction of everyone:
[3:159] It was mercy from GOD that you became compassionate towards them. Had you been harsh and mean-hearted, they would have abandoned you. Therefore, you shall pardon them and ask forgiveness for them, and consult them….
Article 23

1. Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.
2. Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work.
3. Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.
4. Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.

The Quran encourages commerce and commands us to be fair and equitable in all transactions:

[30:46] Among His proofs is that He sends the winds with good omen, to shower you with His mercy, and to allow the ships to run in the sea in accordance with His rules, and for you to seek His bounties (through commerce), that you may be appreciative.

[17:66] Your Lord is the One who causes the ships to float on the ocean, that you may seek His bounties. He is Most Merciful towards you.

[6:152] …You shall give full weight and full measure when you trade, equitably…

[11:85] "O my people, you shall give full measure and full weight, equitably. Do not cheat the people out of their rights, and do not roam the earth corruptingly.
Article 24

Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.

The Quran gives us general statements on how rest is part of human nature. None should be denied a good night’s sleep as night and day are designated with their own specific functions in meeting our needs. Denial of our right to a reasonable amount of leisure time would be detrimental to our health and contrary to what the Quran prescribes for us:

[28:73] It is mercy from Him that He created for you the night and the day in order to rest (during the night), then seek His provisions (during the day), that you may be appreciative.

[33:53] …do not engage him in lengthy conversations. This used to hurt the prophet, and he was too shy to tell you. But GOD does not shy away from the truth…

Article 25

1. Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
2. Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.

The Quran guarantees social justice for everyone through the goals of fasting, zakat and prayer. Fasting is meant to instill within us a greater sense of empathy and social awareness towards the less fortunate. By voluntarily depriving ourselves of our need for food we are not only exerting self- restraint, but we are also more importantly inculcating within ourselves a greater sense of gratitude towards our Provider and generosity towards the poor. Zakat prescribes that we must set aside 2.5% of what we receive from our paychecks as a charity to those in need. These are religious duties upon every Muslim. Voluntary charity and caring for the orphans is also strongly encouraged.

[107:1-7] Do you know who really rejects the faith? That is the one who mistreats the orphans. And does not advocate the feeding of the poor. And woe to those who observe the contact prayers (Salat) - who are totally heedless of their prayers. They only show off. And they forbid charity.

[36:47] When they are told, "Give from GOD's provisions to you," those who disbelieve say to those who believe, "Why should we give to those whom GOD could feed, if He so willed? You are really far astray."

[2:215] They ask you about giving: say, "The charity you give shall go to the parents, the relatives, the orphans, the poor, and the traveling alien." Any good you do, GOD is fully aware thereof.

[70:24-25] Part of their money is set aside. For the poor and the needy.
Article 26

1. Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.
2. Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace.
3. Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children.

The Quran generally encourages seeking God’s bounties and learning, emphasizing the use of our faculties to verify information. God is against anything that hinders the gaining of knowledge and encourages us to think freely rather than beeing blinded by our own traditions and values. We are also asked to open our eyes and reflect on God’s creation:

[86:5] Let the human reflect on his creation.

[54:17] We made the Quran easy to learn. Does any of you wish to learn?

[17:36] You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.

[39:18] They are the ones who examine all words, then follow the best. These are the ones whom GOD has guided; these are the ones who possess intelligence.
Article 27

1. Everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits.
2. Everyone has the right to the protection of the moral and material interests resulting from any scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is the author.

It is a human tendency found in all cultures and religions to impose limitations upon ourselves that prevent us from enjoying God’s blessings. Such is the case in much of the Muslim World, as cultures impose upon themselves, especially upon women, limitations and restrictions that stunt their social, economical, and psychological development. All unreasonable limitations on our freedoms as individuals are condemned in the Quran:

[7:32] Say, "Who prohibited the nice things GOD has created for His creatures, and the good provisions?" Say, "Such provisions are to be enjoyed in this life by those who believe. Moreover, the good provisions will be exclusively theirs on the Day of Resurrection." We thus explain the revelations for people who know.
[22:78] You shall strive for the cause of GOD as you should strive for His cause. He has chosen you and has placed no hardship on you in practicing your religion - the religion of your father Abraham…
[2:185] …GOD wishes for you convenience, not hardship, that you may fulfill your obligations, and to glorify GOD for guiding you, and to express your appreciation.
Article 28

Everyone is entitled to a social and international order in which the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration can be fully realized.

Similarly, all human beings are to be guarnateed all their rights in the Quran by virtue of being human.
Article 29

1. Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible.
2. In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society.
3. These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

The Quran strictly ensures us our rights so long as we do not infringe on the freedoms of others. It also reiterates that nothing shall abrogate God’s words:

[18:27] You shall recite what is revealed to you of your Lord's scripture. Nothing shall abrogate His words, and you shall not find any other source beside it.

[5:8] O you who believe, you shall be absolutely equitable, and observe GOD, when you serve as witnesses. Do not be provoked by your conflicts with some people into committing injustice. You shall be absolutely equitable, for it is more righteous. You shall observe GOD. GOD is fully Cognizant of everything you do.

[4:171] O people of the scripture, do not transgress the limits of your religion, and do not say about GOD except the truth….
Article 30

Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.

Remarkably, the Quran takes note of the human tendeny to use religion as an ideological tool in the oppression of others to meet corrupt and political agendas. It thus strongly condenms such behaviour:

[3:7] He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward verses - which constitute the essence of the scripture - as well as multiple-meaning or allegorical verses. Those who harbor doubts in their hearts will pursue the multiple-meaning verses to create confusion, and to extricate a certain meaning. None knows the true meaning thereof except GOD and those well founded in knowledge. They say, "We believe in this - all of it comes from our Lord." Only those who possess intelligence will take heed.

[2:79] Therefore, woe to those who distort the scripture with their own hands, then say, "This is what GOD has revealed," seeking a cheap material gain. Woe to them for such distortion, and woe to them for their illicit gains.

[3:78] Among them are those who twist their tongues to imitate the scripture, that you may think it is from the scripture, when it is not from the scripture, and they claim that it is from GOD, when it is not from GOD. Thus, they utter lies and attribute them to GOD, knowingly.

QUICREVA- as one born in 'rome' i have to question your conversations or analysis-

were all lifelong students of sociology (actaully the science of sociology was created by muslims)

your opinion seems to insinuate that any prejudice against muslims is deserved becasue they are 'flaunting' their 'otherness'

its starts sounding reasonable- but descends into muslim-bashing- which were trying to stay away from here-

headscarves or hijab is not an invitation to be abused- muslims simply never pray in public places-
the only place ive every seen muslims pray publicly was in chicago in the park- the taxidrivers- no one else does such a thing-
only in extreme emergency would any muslim pray in public- and its still not a justificatio for abuse-

cultural markers of their heritage?

i have made no public comments to experience abuse- it was simply the knowledge that i am a muslim which incurred it-

your personal analysis while it may be your experience from a few conversations with aquaintances- is not representative of the discrimination occurring in america

and ibelieve that is the issue-
simply denying it or saying its the fault of the abused doesnt really add anything to the conversation except to demean the validity of those who have experienced it

having said that here is an interesting thing i found

Dear Contributors:

Forgive me: I was under the impression that this was supposed to be a forum for discussing Eboo Patel's experience with prejudice against Muslims. Instead, it has devolved into a vituperative ideological battle between Christians, Muslims, pagans, and secularists. Could we perhaps return to the salient issue? Is there genuine prejudice against Muslims in this country, and if so, what are the causes and what can be done to correct it?

As a lifelong student of sociology, I know that prejudice derives from a perception of difference between Us and Them. The greater perceived difference between one group and another, the more virulent the prejudice is likely to be. In early centuries, African Americans were seen as being so different from European Americans as to almost constitute a separate subspecies of humankind. As the social, economic and educational boundaries between the two groups have blurred, the prejudice has lessened. The Irish had a similar experience: Other European Americans, with a firmly entrenched Protestant work ethic, perceived these newcomers as lazy, drunken bums with an unpleasant accent. The Jews had a similar experience half a century later.

Now it's the turn for modern Muslims in America. In my observation, those who insist on maintaining purely cultural markers of their Islamic heritage are more likely to be the targets of bigotry than their more aculturated brethren. Muslim acquaintances who wear western clothing, speak good English, and send their kids to public schools tell me they have experienced very little prejudice. By contrast, those who wear headscarves (a custom not mandated by Islam per se), perform their daily prayers in public places, and insist on separate, Islamic education for their kids, often have trouble here. Moreover, Muslims who openly advocate the destruction of Israel, for example, or deny the Holocaust, or express sympathy for others who commit horrific acts in the name of Islam (or make excuses for those people), or make derogatory comments about Christianity and Judaism, etc. etc., are likely to receive some hostility from average Americans. There is great truth to the adage "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."

I believe that, as long as perceived differences persist between the various sub-groups of a society, a certain amount of prejudice will result. It seems to be human nature. Arguing over the respective merits of various religions and philosophies is not a constructive way to address this issue. As I said in my earlier comment, there is some justification for the extremely negative stereotype that Islam has in the west. The response of the Muslim commentators here has been either to deny that there is anything that could ever be construed as negative in Islam, or to turn the tables and accuse Christianity of the same transgressions. The non-Muslims respond by ripping Islam to shreds, or touting the politically correct notion that Islam is actually a religion of peace. None of this ideological fencing has any bearing on the issue of prejudice against Muslims in America. Please try to stick to the issue, friends.

yes historian- the family history says that the government gave him as much land as he could walk in 4 directions in 4 days- the square he walked is todays harrisburg-


sorry ross- im not being racist just stating my experience-

indian people seem to just love blue eyed women named victoria!

i dont feel patricularly threatened-

actually mexicans will shotly comprise 1/3 of the us population-

yes anonymous- and getting back to the point-

that was just indians who were mistaken formuslims!

now lets get back to what has actually been done and is being done to muslims in america!

This is for DEB chaterjee, in Hinduism there is a cast systems the highest cast are the BRAMANS who are rich and highly honourable in their society I dont think you belong in that cast, and the lowest cast are the SUDRAS (mostly janitors)since they are not being counted anywhere they are considered as UNTOUCHABLE because of their professions. I am pretty much sure, the reasons why you left the relegion of your forefathers, and came here in this forum trying to get the sympathy and respect from the westerner which you never got from your own i.e. hindus. Deb you think these folks would take care of you if you speak their language cursing other relegion and talk about immigration, GOOD LUCK with your new endevour. These people are so ignorant they did not even know where Iraq was on the map before the first gulf war. They even killed a SIKH Indian after 9/11 and labelled him muslim, they destroyed so many Indian Hindu owned convenient stores, you could have stayed with your fate and respected your own culture so rich it never had any distinction between a hindu and a muslim, its a shame DEB, if you were bold enough to change your first name why kept your last name Chaterjee why dont you change last name too, CHATTERLY would give you that satisfaction.

victoria wrote:
k deb, but whatcha gonna do about me?
my great time 8 daddy was the first senator of pennsylvania-
my other great granddaddy has the capitol of pennsylvania named after him-
there are buildings all over my city with my name on them-
weve been here for while and are pretty well loved-

Victoria,
As long as Americans listen to people like Deb, you will still be loved around there. If mass immigration continues and results in an islamic government then following will happen:

your great time 8 daddy was the first senator of pennsylvania will no longer exist because history books will be rewritten. Because he was a kafir he will be replaced by some Sheikh Mahound who was responsible for supressing the last kafir stronghold in that region.

Your other great granddaddy will no longer have the capitol of pennsylvania named after him because he was a kafir and the capiton will be renamed Hassanabad after some Zia Hassan who successfully introduced dhimmi laws in the US.

All the tall buildings will be renamed after the famous madarassaa in the arab nations.

As far as being loved around there is concerned this sadly will disappear with the arrival of asian, arab and african muslims, instead you'll just be a veiled woman spending the whole day in your house, not allowed to drive or travel anywhere without your husband or son.

victoria wrote:
sorry deb- but alot of americans dont make great distinctions between indians and pakistanis-

What makes you think americans will be the majority then ? I hate to say this but Asian or Arab muslims do not have a great deal of respect for white women, they always see them as women with loose morals. Your boasting about your great ancestory will infact increase their hated.
In such a situation Deb would receive more respect because atleast he's asian and looks like one of them.

I do not wish such things happen to you or your ancestory, I wish more buildings are named after them and their names continue to thrive in the nation they helped build.

The origin of name Harrisburg, Pennsylvania--the state capital

In 1719, John Harris, Sr., an English trader, settled here and 14 years later secured grants of 800 acres (3.2 km²) in this vicinity. In 1785, John Harris, Jr. made plans to lay out a town on his father's land, which he named Harrisburg. In the spring of 1785, the town was formally surveyed by William Maclay, who was a son-in-law of John Harris, Sr. In 1791, Harrisburg became incorporated and was named the Pennsylvania state capital in October 1812.

Terrorism

Terrorism is the use of violence for the primary purpose of creating a general atmosphere of fear and alarm. Thus, a terrorist organization does not limit its tactical use of violence to military and other such strategic targets but will additionally direct its violent tactics against the public at large. If employed by a government, the objective of such a use of terror can be to create submission to a repressive status quo. If used by an anti-governmental group, the objective may be to create a situation of instability in order to facilitate the overthrow of the existing government

HAPPY SPRING!!!

sproing boing bing leap cavort frolic caper

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k deb, but whatcha gonna do about me?

my great time 8 daddy was the first senator of pennsylvania-

my other great granddaddy has the capitol of pennsylvania named after him-

there are buildings all over my city with my name on them-

weve been here for while and are pretty well loved-

and youre from india right deb?

sorry deb- but alot of americans dont make great distinctions between indians and pakistanis-
(alot of INDIANS dont make distinctions between indians and pakistanis for that matter)

this would probably affect you alot more than it would me- im here - without fear- so get used to it- (to paraphrase my rainbow friends)

The next presidential election in USA should also focus on immigration. Yes, Muslim immigration to USA should be severely restricted. Whereever Muslims have gone, they multiplied and eventually screwed all the existing rules. Look at France, Britain, Netherlands etc.

The western values and Islamic way of life are totally opposite. Yes, from Muslim's perspective Islam is right, as it is Allah's timeless message and blah blah. From US perspective, the US Constitution is supreme. In US, live the US way. The only way to preserve the US way is to limit Muslim immigration.

All the sorrows, fears, unrest and anger and the ensuing Clash of Civilizations should stop at the immigration check points/visa centers.

syndrome of people of the book.

jews and christians received divine revelation(tora and gospel),but they were very (smart)they said we take this part of the scriptue and leave this part,this part is lean and this part is hard.the (so smart) people of the book failed to understand that the lean part as well as the hard part of the scripture are from the creator lord who made them and know exactly what is good and what is bad.so the (smartness) of people of the book brought on them the syndrome of heart sealing,that doesnot accept the truth until they submit to their creator lord who created them .

yes indeed ,as a muslim i submit to the creator lord why not and he created me ,and my life and death is in his hands.

to those who are so brain smarted syndrome :
1-if you think that you are smarter than your creator lord,that you are programation free ,
see if you can creat a mosquto .

2-the word of the creator (quran)is challegeing every body,bring one verse similar,.bring better guidance ,bring better way of life ,bring your smart diagram if you so truthfull.

your smart diagram brought so much misery to this planet earth,that is manifest to every body and every species.

to muslims and none muslims ,there is creator for this universe,so ask him and seek his knowledge befor you run your smart brain and smart biger than your brain tongue.

frank- the point is most ineloquently made by yourself- irrational fear and hatred of islam (islamophobia) resulting in discrimination agaisnt its adherents

thank you for illustrating the point so succinctly

im sorry pablo- what was your challenge?

i have read the bible you fool and i have read the koran too. the bible is a history book and it outlines wars etc of the past - at least as to the old testament. the new testament has to do with jesus. neith one tells people that they are commanded to go out and murder anyone not their religion. the koran actually orders its followers to murder those who will not convert. and that is another islamic tactic - change the topic. i dont give a rats ass if one religion thinks it is the true religion and that others are wrong - my problem is with the islamic demand that those not islamic must convert or be killed. get the point islam boy.

Jihadist was right in implying. "Ibn Allah" is not a Muslim nor does "Ibn Allah" knows Arabic or Islam enough to call himself "Ibn Allah". Jihadist was mocking him.

I guess my challege will go un-answered. It was nice to be able to share the word of God with you all. The Muslims will not answer my challenge so I am moving on to find people who are interested.

Con el Amor de Jesús,

Pablo

"Mas Dios muestra su amor para con nosotros, en que siendo aún pecadores, Cristo murió por nosotros" (Romonos 5:8).

Ibn Allah noted:

To improve our image we should:

1) Ask what we, as Muslims, can do to win the hearts of non-Muslims.

2) We should take a honest look at our religion and reform its defects.

3) We should not deal with imams and countries that oppress women in concert with Islamic teachings.

4) We should swear to uphold the US Constitution and not allow sharia to take hold.

BRAVO!!! Finally a Muslim with concern and common sense. Maybe Jihadist and Victoria will someday make the same suggestions!!!

With respect to #2, I recommend having Professor JD Crossan clean out the defects of the Koran just like he did for the NT.

Umm, not to wander in here, but, umm, what kind of logic is *this* supposed to be?

"On 9-11 we witnessed the horrors of terrorism and 5000 “innocent” people died. It is sad to say but none of us is Innocent if we don’t do anything to prevent what is happening right now. Democracy works by majorities, and if the majority of people want war, then we all are guilty of its horrors."

Especially when the whole damn thing was doubtless for the *purpose* of starting this 'war?'

After this attack, a *majority* of people were lied to, and a *majority* said that if they believed the facts were actually what are now indisputably known to be the case, that they'd have been against a "war" that was a sick gleam in someone's eye *until* the attack happened.

Yeah, the war's a bad idea, but it's just *backwards* to say that the people who died that day *deserved* it cause they might in the future be part of a 'majority' that doesn't exist.

Feh.

well miss ya- yeeehaaawdist

Sorry for slipping into a bit of French. I am drafting something in that language and can't get it out of my head completely when writing my posts here. What I said is nothing to gripe about.

All the best people. See y'all in a few weeks' time :)

Ibn Allah:)

Sorry for pulling your leg. Just testing how much you know Arabic.

As for you and me, l'un ne peut fonctionner sans l'autre in making Muslim lives better.

And come out and elaborate on your proposed plan as you stated in your previous post on what we should do. We are all ears here.

To apolitical...

Welcome Chicken little. Don't worry the sky ain't falling apart yet or at any time soon unless you have been talking to John Hagee and company who claim to have a direct red phone hotline to the throne of the Lord who is sitting in heaven and the earth is his stool(big Guy ain't he chicken little!)

assalamu alaikum sister Victoria. God bless...

Ibn Allah?:)

Son of God? That is what you monicker means in Arabic. No Muslim would use that:)

Nice try:)

Apoliticallycorrect:

Of course. Julie would not know anything about Islam until and unless what she says fits with what you say and think eh :)

As far as I can read, hear and see, there is no "political correctness" in the On Faith threads on religion at all. Soooo......

The difference between a Terrorist and a Soldier is very simple, their country of origin, one comes from the “third world” and the other from the so called “First World”. Both of them Murder millions of people from the other side because they don’t share the same ideas and they were told to do so. The first one kills following religion, and the second one following politics.

Now here comes “Freedom” and by that first we have to clarify its limits which are very simple: My Freedom ends where yours starts. I may have an Idea and I am free to express it as long as it doesn’t hurt nobody’s feelings. Me as a Catholic I have the freedom to express MY religion, but I DON’T have the right to call anybody else’s religion a fake. If you want it to be logical, neither me or anybody else has Factual proof that what we are saying is the only and complete truth, we just believe that and that’s what Faith is all about.

I have the freedom to make a barbeque on my back yard, but I don’t have the right to disturb my neighbors, same thing applies to them.

You may think whatever you want, but in my humble opinion USA went to conquer Iraq to take out their oil and nothing more. Sadam Hussein was a mere excuse and they executed him for killing 124 persons. How many US Soldiers die and how many Arab people are killed by them each day because of “Presidents” orders?

On 9-11 we witnessed the horrors of terrorism and 5000 “innocent” people died. It is sad to say but none of us is Innocent if we don’t do anything to prevent what is happening right now. Democracy works by majorities, and if the majority of people want war, then we all are guilty of its horrors.

And to end with the main thing about this article, some people in this discussion board say that all Muslims are terrorists, stop and think about it, it would be the same as being in the Arabic side and saying that all Westerners are Soldiers or even worst, Murderers. Yes, some of them are and like I said before, all religions have extremists that are willing to die in “gods” name, like soldiers are for money to pay for their tuition.

Discrimination comes from ignorance and the lack of interest to learn about other ways of thinking.

Julie:

You do not know anything about Islam. You believe the Westernized politically correct version which is not really true Islam. Do you feel sorry for all the Children that get blown up by true Muslims with bombs strapped to their bodies in Israel? Do you care that every nation that has been run over by Islam is now a war zone. How blind does a person have to be to miss all this? Political Correctness must go before our nation falls. It is amazing that a nation with so much power cannot destroy the terrorists because of all the political correctness. Our children do not receive an education in school anymore. No, they are being indoctrinated by people like you. I am glad you have a heart for those who are treated unjustly but do not miss the truth when it is so crystal clear. Islam is evil. The Muslims want to take over the world for Allah. It only takes a cursory reading of the Qur'an, and honest look at the murderous life of Muhammad, and a look at the history of Islam. Everywhere it prevails there is violence, anger, and hatred.

mostly nicley put ibn alla but number 3 should be oppress women in CONTRADICITION to islamic teachings

as for not allowing sharia to take hold-

are you in america?

i watched congressional proceedings today (like every day)

im happy to inform everyone that the resolution passed to rename Ellis Island (by the staute of liberty- where many immigrants first hit the shores here- well- used to ) Bob Hope!

Giving renewed 'hope' (nopun intended- well- none elocuted either) to oppressed and undertrodden rich while male golfers all over america!
they exhibited their delirium by wearing unmatching tartan plaid pants and lime green scully caps-

i am flushed with renewed pride every day when i watch my government in action, and the penetrating issues they grapple with...

salaams and jazakalakhairum to the increasingly apporpriately named jihadist

ibn alla- that journey starts as always (as the increasingly apporpriately named jihadist reminds us with her moniker) within

To improve our image we should

1) Ask what we, as Muslims, can do to win the hearts of non-Muslims.

2) We should take a honest look at our religion and reform its defects.

3) We should not deal with imams and countries that oppress women in concert with Islamic teachings.

4) We should swear to uphold the US Constitution and not allow sharia to take hold.

My compliments to you Victoria - la seule blanche ayant une voix de Muslim, les uns contre les autres.

Salam and regards
Jihadist

Victoria !

Hello, hello!

The "Muslim truth squad" is in full swing here!
What would an On Faith Muslim panelist's thread be without them :)

My personal favourite - I'm sorry to say, the truth may hurt, but Islam is a false relgion, an evil cult. Love it:)

My second personal favourite - all those fellows bringing out Suras, Hadiths, the Prophet and instances of Muslim actions against fellow Muslims or non-Muslims overseas.

They don't see the irony of what they are doing as Christians here in the US and overseas it seems:)

Victoria,

So, how many Christians would it take to reconvert a female Irish American Muslim back?

Five rabid ranters on Islam and Muslims.

Actually, this is a very interesting thread. Three seperate realities here - Muslim, Christian, atheist.

Makes one recall of President Eisenhower talking about the military-industrial complex and one to think of coming up with silly new terms such as missionary mindset-faith based initiatives complex.

And Victoria,

You and Eboo are not responsible for nor accountable, nor answerable for what Muslims outside the US do or did not do. Every Muslim is responsible for his own actions, and every Muslim governments too.

You are not responsible for what the Taliban think and do, what the Sunnis and Shiites think and do in Iraq, nor what Hamas and Hezbollah think and do.

I find it admirable that you should undertake to explain Islam to your fellow Americans. A challenging undertaking considering some of your fellow Americans are prone to blame others for their ignorance, errors and mistakes. No sense of personal responsibility as reflected by Americans suing McDonald's for the hot scalding coffee they spilled on their laps. Or to sue cigarettes companies for cancer due to not stopping their addiction to smoking. Or blaming liquor for regrettable words and actions.

And I see that they shied away from eleborating their own dogmas to say their beliefs are better and the one and only "truth", "true faith" and true interpretation of God, and and to go on, again and again, why Islam is so evil and bad:)

Can I get anyone coffee, tea, a sixpack? You know, for another round of - I'm sorry to say so..., I know it hurts to say so..... I know the truth hurts....... Islam is a false religion....Muslims are in a satanic cult.....

Thank God, y'all who said Islam is a false religion do believe in God eh? God bless y'all.

I'll see y'all in hell. Then go to heaven with the houris around, which are not virgins actually, but purified souls:)

Glen -- Your fictional Jesus was a false Messiah.

Glen, why do you disagree with the pope?

Pope John Paul II on Islam

"We adore God and profess total submission to him. Thus, in a true sense, we can call one another brothers and sisters in faith in the one God,"

"Christians and Muslims generally we have understood each other badly. Sometimes in the past we have opposed each other and even exhausted ourselves in polemics and wars. I believe that God is calling us today to change our old habits. We have to respect each other and stimulate each other in good works upon the path indicated by God. In a world that desires unity and peace, but which experiences a thousand tensions and conflicts, believers should foster friendship and union among humanity and the people who comprise a single community on earth"

"May the hearts of Christians and Muslims turn to one another with feelings of brotherhood and friendship, so that the Almighty may bless us with the peace which heaven alone can give. To the One, Merciful God be praise and glory for ever. Amen."

Let me tell you as politely as I can: Your prophet Mohamed is a false prophet and your Sharia law is repressive. There I said it. Please don't be upset with me for telling the truth about Islam in this great free nation. I feel for you brother as your Islam tells you that I am being disrespectful and perhaps deserve to die. With all due respect I just don't agree with your ideology. I live in the USA so I can honestly tell you that your religion is full of hate and really a drag. Please don't be angry because I am only honestly and politely expressing my opinion. Thank you and God (not Allah) Bless.

HALOZCEL...Why don't you respect the Pope's opinion?

Pope John Paul II on Islam

"We adore God and profess total submission to him. Thus, in a true sense, we can call one another brothers and sisters in faith in the one God,"

"Christians and Muslims generally we have understood each other badly. Sometimes in the past we have opposed each other and even exhausted ourselves in polemics and wars. I believe that God is calling us today to change our old habits. We have to respect each other and stimulate each other in good works upon the path indicated by God. In a world that desires unity and peace, but which experiences a thousand tensions and conflicts, believers should foster friendship and union among humanity and the people who comprise a single community on earth"

"May the hearts of Christians and Muslims turn to one another with feelings of brotherhood and friendship, so that the Almighty may bless us with the peace which heaven alone can give. To the One, Merciful God be praise and glory for ever. Amen."

Julie,Dear Professor,welcome.

You say,we should try to be respectful of each other faith.
...man can scourge woman 4.34.shall we recpect this? or Timothy 2.12.

You say,they should be brought up with tolerance and with love.
so,shall we respect 9.73 and 5.51.

You say,please do not use this as a forum for speaking hatred against any religion.
In that case,shall we respect 8.12.

Ross, Pablo, Concerned Christian, etc, no offense but I trust the Pope's opinion more than yours...Or are you going to claim that you know more than the pope?

Pope John Paul II on Islam

"We adore God and profess total submission to him. Thus, in a true sense, we can call one another brothers and sisters in faith in the one God,"

"Christians and Muslims generally we have understood each other badly. Sometimes in the past we have opposed each other and even exhausted ourselves in polemics and wars. I believe that God is calling us today to change our old habits. We have to respect each other and stimulate each other in good works upon the path indicated by God. In a world that desires unity and peace, but which experiences a thousand tensions and conflicts, believers should foster friendship and union among humanity and the people who comprise a single community on earth"

"May the hearts of Christians and Muslims turn to one another with feelings of brotherhood and friendship, so that the Almighty may bless us with the peace which heaven alone can give. To the One, Merciful God be praise and glory for ever. Amen."

this is for you ross:

what good will it do to you if the Muslim lets say start doing what you think? while you are trying hard to point out and jumping from one topic to another avoiding all the questions? you want to change the muslim laws while on the other hand you christian wantto give approval to
homosexual to get married? very good ross you guys are just amazing.

Victoria wrote:
ROSS- you still havent provided any instances of a country that practices dhimmitude today-
youve given 3 examples of APOSTASY-

Please reread my posts, only the third case was about apostates. The family from malaysia were HINDUS who were helpless againt the sharia controlled government. The man accused for blasphemy in pakistan is/was (i'm not sure if he is still alive) a christian who again was helpless against the muslim authorities.

You are just trying to make excuses for the evil perpetrated by the sharia.

I'll tell you more about islamic countries, all countries having the sharia law implement the following
1. do not permit non muslim for standing in local election
2.do not permit non muslim to become the head of state or other major position like chief of armed forces.
3.Prevent non muslim men from marrying muslim women.
4. Non muslim marriage is automatically nullfied if one of the spouses becomes muslim and marries a muslim.
5. In case of a divorce the children go to the muslim parent.

Nearly all muslim coutries implement the above.

Do you find the above laws acceptable ?

JIHADIST- that is interesting that you brought up Mccarthy-
last night my husband and i watched the movie 'goodnight and good luck' about ed murrow's journalistic foray into mccarthist america-

he was a hateful little troll who played on peoples basest fears and insecurities
also a master of innuendo-

i see the same tactics used here

if you say something enough, (islam is a religio of hate for instance) and loud enough and long enough, people stop questioning whether it is true or not, and just believe what theyre programmed

my reccomendation to everyone here-
turn off fox news- watch bbc once in a while
peace

Pablo- that question was to A HANDLER in repsonse to their complaint that muslims are silent- not you dear-
i have a habit of collecting ideas and writing in my head and then making an answer assuming that people will know its addressed to them-
ill try to be more conscious

ROSS- you still havent provided any instances of a country that practices dhimmitude today-
youve given 3 examples of APOSTASY-

you know well that leaving islam (apostasy) is what a muslim does and the consequent extreme over reactions youve posted

dhimmis arent muslims but people of other faiths living in muslim countries under protected status (for instance dhimmis dont have to serve in the military)

so i ask again- in reference to DHIMMIS not APOSTATES-
where this happens today

DEB- As you specifically told me before you are a hindu- have you switched or are you categorizing hinduism as deism now?
just curious

also in respect to the complaint of A HANDLER again- i told him to google that because he was saying there are NO MULSIMS RESPONDING to violence

whoever said jihadist should change her name-
please dont blame her name choice because you dont know the meaning of jihad-
even that awful wikipedia will give you a summary of it-
you can even look back at my post before the long one and find a definition

no one has to worry that jihadist wants me to 'stay a muslim' there is no person on this planet who can do that- i stay a muslim from conscious choice

well- like always- the same people see a muslim topic and show up to spread their prejudice-

ive been a fixture on these boards since its inception last november-

every muslim panelists question invariably degenerates into islamophobes taking over and spewing hate of islam and muslims

i think it rather proves the point of discrimination against muslims most decidedly-

i do have one complaint though-
i think it bad manners-

i have never once gone to an atheist or christian or jewish or wiccan site and denigrated their beliefs or belittled or outright hated them-

its just bad manners, but since the message is overwhelmingly slanderous i guess manners arent at the top of the list-

just an observation

i do agree with jihadist on one thing-

chrsitians always feel compelled to 'convinve' other of the rightness of their beliefs-

there is a certain desparation in that- and i also have to wonder-

who are you trying to convince?

others or yourself?

peace all

America's racist past is fast catching up with her again. For years America focused her hatred towards Black American's. Now America has a new focus for their hatred, Muslims world-wide. America spends their time hating one group or another all for the same reason, they do not look like US.

America has some learning yet to accomplish as America still refuese to accept their place in history of slavery and racism!

To understand the present, look at America's past. To understand the future look at America's present. hatred for minorities from past, to present, leading into the future.

America is still racist and will remains so, until American's stand up and have no more of it, racism and prejudice. Fighting any opportunity for equality is the American way. Capitalism!

BGONE,

Give us a break!!! Mormons are taking over the world? Maybe on Venus.

Add some common sense to The Church of Latter Day Saints formation and its foundations crumble to the ground.

e.g. The Book of Mormon, provided an account of an Israelite prophet, Lehi, who was commanded by God in 600 B.C. to lead a small group of people to the American continent. It also recorded the appearance of Christ, after his Resurrection, to the people in America. Early Mormonism held that there would be a literal gathering of Israel to the United States and that Zion would be built upon the American continent."

Lehi another in the long line of mythical prophets and the Book of Mormon another book authenicating itself.

I dare say a Catholic might be a bit discriminated against in Salt Lake City!!!

Julie you wrote:

"1 billion Muslims with those terrorists who commit violence in the name of Islam."

I respect your true intentions and your feelings in your entire post whole heartedly, your this statement somewhat bothers me my question is a simple one: as a professor would you kindly give us the defination of a terrorist? who can be labelled terrorist? are there terrorists who commit violence in the name of Christianity or judaism or hinduism?

I am a professor who studies political Islam. I have been reading the comments posted on this website for a few weeks now and I have felt very upset. There is a real tendency to take small facts about Islam and use them to condemn the faith on whole. In studying Islam, as with all religions, we must study the religious texts in their historical contexts.

I think we should all try to be respectful of each other's faiths. One can believe passionately in their own faith. One can have negative feelings about Islam. However, one should not disrespect Islam by slamming its prophets or conflating 1 billion Muslims with those terrorists who commit violence in the name of Islam.

I feel great sadness for those children who are called "terrorist" or "osama" by their classmates and beaten up. It would break my heart if my children were beat up because they are Jews. Our children must not be brought up to hate. They should be brought up with tolerance and with a love of learning.

There are lots of interesting scholars who blog on this website and make interesting arguments that could be fuel for compelling discussions. Please do not use this as a forum for speaking hatred against any religion.

I was born a Jew. Now I do not want to be a Jew. But, I am now just a Joktanic HEBREW and Not a Pelig Hebrew. As an ex International Traveler I traveled the whole world and studied Christianity, Islam, Hindu & Budha faiths. I admitt that i only read their scriptures in English. Yet I decided that ALL of these faiths can be now called ancient PRE-APOCOLYPTIC belief SYSTEMS. I have a NEW RELIGION, I have ECLAT (Meaning "A brilliance Bursting Forth"). I bekieve in the FLASH first and Not the BIG BANG. We live in TRANSFINITY (reality) and we came from the MAGMATRICULATION and that: LIFE IS A MIRACLE & THER IS NOTHING-SINFULL ABOUT IT contrary to what the NOVELISTs and their bennefactors have transcribed, interpreted nor fiated as if from G-d ITSELF. Note: As an ECLATARIAN, ECLAT (G-d, Lord, Almighty, Father, mother etc...) is neither a He nor a She. And I now know, as by being in a Carbon Form creature, that WE NEVER DIE! :-) Praise Eclat in my HOLY HEART BEAT. Sholom!

Frank Collins wrote:

" they have to learn that in the west we can actually get a copy of the koran and read it."

Frank frankly are you guys claiming that you have read the Qoran "really", why dont you first go and read the BIBLE first and try to understand it in its full entirity and straighten your own life before you go on read something in a foreign language and claiming you understand better than the muslims, this time your illusion did not work.

deb chatterjee wrote:

Most Muslim scholars (translators) have stated they knew Arabic and actually studied it in madrassas. So are these translators lying ? If Allah's timeless message can be subject to whims and fancies of the translator, then Allah's followers (Muslim translators) have taken him for a ride. Thus, Islam is a false religion - as its message to humanity depends on who is translating.

my question is was the original language of the BIBLE english or was it translated from someother language and modified as per your own suitness.

it looks like those islamics on the board defend their religion by denying that the koran says what it says. you get people like that from islam. they call everyone liars but cant point to a lie. they tell you that you are speaking out of context but when you give them a quote they deny it. they have to learn that in the west we can actually get a copy of the koran and read it.

It is a shame that we have a moderator who keeps allowing dirt from other posters go free against Islam, but does not have balls to confront the truth so he deleted my posting that had some truth in it and some bitter questions who was hard to handle, MR MODERATOR if you are man enough then put my deleted post on the board.

You let christians a blank check to write anything about ISLAM and even let them demanded the validity of the Relegion, while on the other hand you deleted my post when I demanded the validity of their faith. This proved that you and your panelists especially the Christians are nothing but the fake and you are guilty of creating the Clash of Civilizations and stoping the light of the Lord Almighty to come through, Allah knows how to deal with people like and from my side why dont you guys put some skirt and blouse and live like drags then call yourselves relegious inquiring mind.

JAMES BUCHANAN:

Your constitutionaly right to "spit" on beliefs will be all different when the constitution is replaced by sacred scriptures. You know, the way it was before the constitution, a little fire to the feet, the rack, no spitting on beliefs for sure. The issue to be decided is which sacred scripture, Bible, Qu'ran, or Book of Mormon will win out and become the law of the land.

Muslims are "come lately" and have a bit catching up to do. Christians must be benevolent and let them into this Christian nation where the Bible now struggles to be accepted as the constitution's replacment. Look out for those Mormons for they're coming up fast. It's the rack for spitters, just you wait and see.

Victoria,

You have not answered. Do you believe that the whole world should and will be converted to Islam one day?

Pablo

Mo,

I see you have dodged the issue. You sound like you have been programmed. A big following is not proof of truth. Many followed Hitler. Let’s think through these issues together.

Pablo

People hear something in their dreams--a psychedelic experience.

People hear something in their dreams--a psychedelic experience.

Anonymous,

You have not addressed the issue of the Trinity and whether or not the scriptures teach that there are three persons in the scripture who are called God and that these three persons are one. This would not do in formal debate, address the issue.

Why does God use plural personal pronouns when speaking of Himself making man in His image, male and female He created them?

Is woman included as being made in the image of God in the Muslim way of thinking? If she is how is that consistent with God being an absolute one?

Did God have to create another being to experience a relationship of one or is the man and woman relationship of one flesh a reflection of God's relationship within the three persons of the Trinity?

The usage of the Hebrew word “eXad” in the Shema does not mean absolute one in fact it is used throughout the scripture as a united one. For example, Genesis 2:24 when God said, "They shall be one flesh" is a great example of “eXad.”

By they way what should one call you?

Pablo

Historian -- Thanks for your post, in which you state that "All statements in the Hebrew Bible and in rabbinic literature which use anthropomorphism are held to be linguistic conceits or metaphors, as it would otherwise be impossible to talk about God at all." Anthropomorphism includes the use by God of human speech. Are the instances in the Bible where God communicates with people by speaking to them in their language accurate accounts of their communications, or are these conversations metaphorical? What do you think of the belief that many have that these conversations are accurately portrayed in the Bible?

Victoria,
Sorry again, I misspelt your name.

Victora,

Sorry, the previous post was mine, I typed your name in the wrong text box.

Victoria wrote:
as ive asked you before- where on the planet earth is this is practice today?

I've provided examples of dhimmitude of minorities from 3 islamic countries. These persecution was not ordered by some radical group but by the sharia based government, so please think again before you condemn these governments as "un islamic".

In these cases how does it translate to protection ?

I've lived/visited a few countries in the middle east and have experienced dhimmitude firsthand. Being an Indian I'm aware of how minorities are treated from neighbouring islamic countries like pakistan and bangladesh. Even today the bangla writer Taslima Nasreen has to live in hiding because of a fatwa issued by the religious authorities of bangladesh just for writing a book called Lajja (shame) that described the plight of the hindu minority in her country.

Returning to the topic:

Most contemporary Catholics are not discriminated against unless they live in an Islamic or Communist controlled country.

We Catholics do receive criticism and rightly so for our belief in original sin, limbo, trinity, confessing sins to a sinning priest, and the 24/7 blood sacrifice of Jesus.

God's gifts of common sense and reasoning are slowly eroding these Dark Age concepts.

Victoria,

Here's one from afghanistan.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4865818.stm

----------------------------------------

Hopes and fears of Afghan Christians
By Tom Coghlan
Kabul

Afghan Abdul Rahman converted to Christianity 16 years ago
For Afghanistan's tiny Christian community, a community certainly in the hundreds and probably the thousands, the Abdul Rahman case has brought both fear and hope.
Mr Rahman is starting a new life in Italy after his trial in Afghanistan for converting from Islam collapsed. He faced the death penalty if he had been found guilty.

In a house in Kabul, one of the city's Christian community described the ambivalent position they now find themselves in.

The world now knows more of their existence.

International pressure for increased religious tolerance, might, they hope, reduce their current vulnerability.

'Civil rights'

But the Rahman case has also pushed the question of Islamic apostasy to the fore in Afghanistan and focused the attention of the country's conservative religious parties.

"This case has shown that there are Christians in Afghanistan and that they have civil rights that should be respected," said the man.

"In Afghanistan we Christians have nothing to do with politics. We love and respect everyone. We love and respect even our enemies, however they punish us."

There is much disillusionment - people used to look to communism, now they look increasingly to Christianity

British-based Christian

He was accompanied by other Afghan Christians and spoke on their behalf. The man will not be photographed and asked that details that might help identify him be kept to a minimum.

The Christian community live with the threat of official harassment and attack by extremists. There have been gun and grenade attacks against churches in neighbouring Pakistan.

"There is a very large threat against me," he said. "We hope that God will care for us."

Reasons for conversion

But despite the reported hardline rhetoric of Afghan clerics during the Rahman case the Christian claims that many Muslim friends regard his conversion as a private matter.

There is no clear-cut text in the Koran calling apostates to be killed

"Most of my friends know that I am a Christian," he said. "I have many friends who are mullahs and maulvis.

"Some of them say they like me more these days. Before I was a liar, I was cheating people and many other things. I don't do that now."

The reasons for conversion in such a potentially hostile environment are of course varied and personal.

I also met one British Christian with longstanding links to the Afghan Christian underground, although not linked to the Afghan Christian interviewed for this article.

The British man argues that the actions of political groups during Afghanistan's civil war years and the harsh doctrine of the Taleban were factors in the conversion of some Afghans.

"There is much disillusionment," he says. "People used to look to communism, now they look increasingly to Christianity."

The British man added that the compassionate actions of Christian-based aid agencies during the civil war and Taleban era in Afghanistan had impressed many Afghans. He denied that any aid agencies were involved in proselytization.

The Afghan Christian interviewed by the BBC was quick to point out that his own conversion took place before Afghanistan's civil war began. And he was also keen to stress his respect for Islam and Islamic beliefs.

I am very happy with my life and I see other Christians here very happy too

Christian convert

But he said: "Some political groups use Islam as a vehicle for their advantage; to get power and to keep power. They are still using it.

"These groups are discredited in Afghan society. They have used Abdul Rahman to promote their power. Afghans feel at ease with Christians. It is only a few political groups who don't."

He declines to detail the reasons for his own conversion but stresses the shared heritage of Islam and Christianity.

"When I read the second section of the Koran, the one which deals with the birth of Jesus Christ to Mary, it affected me in a very profound way," he said.

"My purpose is only to worship God. I find from this religion that I can."

Long-established Christianity

Like the Christian community in neighbouring Pakistan, where the minority numbers some millions, Afghanistan's Christians say that a Christian community has always survived in their country.

Many Afghans were unhappy with the dismissal of the Rahman case
"One of Christ's disciples came to Afghanistan," said the man. "When Islam came the churches were destroyed but some Christians still practised.

There are Christians whose families have been Christian for many generations, but most converted recently," he said.

In Pakistan, Christians have pointed to the 1935 discovery of the so-called Taxila Cross, an apparent Christian symbol from the 2nd Century, as evidence to support accounts that St Thomas established a Christian community in South Asia.

This would counter the idea that Christianity in the region is only a recent product of British colonial influence.

Proof of a long-established Christian community in Afghanistan might confer a measure of legitimacy to Afghan Christians similar to that enjoyed by the country's small Sikh and Hindu communities.

"I am very happy with my life and I see other Christians here very happy too," claimed the Christian convert.

"In the future, what God wants will happen. But Christians are always with God and if we are killed we go to God."

----------------------------------------

Victoria,

Here's another example from pakistan:

----------------------------------------------
Pakistan blasphemy case death sentence

A court in Pakistani city of Lahore has sentenced a man to death for blasphemy.

Prosecution said the man, Anwar Kenneth - a Christian in his forties - had claimed to be an incarnation of Jesus Christ and described Islam as a fake religion.

Mr Kenneth had refused to accept legal assistance and pleaded guilty to the blasphemy charges.

Christian rights workers say Mr Kenneth had a history of psychiatric problems and should have been medically examined before his case was considered by the court.

Human rights organisations in Pakistan have been demanding the repeal of the blasphemy laws, which, they say, were largely targeted at religious minorities which together constitute about three-per-cent of the population.

-----------------------------------------

Victoria,

Here an example of how muslims treat minorities even in a moderate muslim country like malaysia. THEY DO NOT EVEN LEAVE THE DEAD ALONE.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4563452.stm

----------------------------------------------

Muslim burial for Malaysian hero

Mr Moorthy's widow was in tears after Wednesday's ruling. A Malaysian mountaineering hero will be buried as a Muslim, against the wishes of his Hindu wife, who denied he had converted to Islam before his death.
The decision follows a High Court ruling that it cannot override the country's Islamic courts in matters of religious conversion.

An Islamic court had said the man, M Moorthy, had become a Muslim last year.

Lawyers say the case highlights problems faced by non-Muslims dealing with Malaysia's Islamic justice system.

"So much for good interracial relations," Haris Mohamad Ibrahim, a lawyer representing Malaysia's Bar Council, told The Associated Press.

"The judge has just told the widow and her family to go back and leave the body of their beloved to be buried by strangers."

Coma

M Moorthy, 36, was a Hindu when he became a national hero in 1997 as a member of the first Malaysian expedition to conquer Mount Everest.

But when he died a week ago family supporters and state Islamic officials jostled one another at the mortuary as each tried to claim his body.

An Islamic Sharia court subsequently upheld a claim by his former colleagues in the army that he had become a Muslim last year.

However his family, who want him to have a Hindu funeral, were not allowed to appear before the court to dispute his conversion because they are not Muslims.

The family went to the civil court and argued that Mr Moorthy was a practising Hindu right up to a recent accident when he fell from his wheelchair and lapsed into a coma.

They say he was even interviewed for local television two months ago about his preparations for the Hindu festival of Diwali.

But the High Court agreed with government lawyers who argued the civil court had no jurisdiction.

Lawyers for the dead man's relatives say the ruling leaves non-Muslims little protection in family disputes considered under Islamic law.

Most Malaysians are Muslim but the country's constitution guarantees freedom of worship for all.

----------------------------------------------

try to think of it this way. you are part of a religion that says not to take kew, christians, or anyone else not islamic as friends or co-workers, ypu are part of a religion that says that you can make them all convert or kill them, SLOWLY. you are part of a religion that has been at war since 629 ad when islam started murdering all of the above - before they even knew about islam. you are part of a religion that has at its core the assertion that it can force islam on those who do not want it and also kill those who chose not to continue with it, you have spread by violence into north arficia where you religion supports genocide and slavery and the sex slave trade. but you have mastered the POOR ME approach to everything. in other words that which you do to each other and to those not islamic is just fine if it you that is doing it, but it is an affront to islam if anyone does it to you. the world is awake. we have read your koran and know that it is the blueprint death and destruciton the same as mein kampf was the blueprint for the same for hitler.

Alekz:
The money I give to the Catholic church goes to The Vatican, and thus it transforms itself to Euros, then the Dollar Looses power.

But then the EU and the rest of the world are forced to bow before the dollar hegemony when they have to purchase their oil only using US Dollars.
The reason Iraq was attacked was because it dared to price his oil in euro thus reducing the value of the dollar. Iran has done the same now.

Dear Mr. Patel

I am a Christian Catholic and I say we do suffer from the same discrimination that Muslim people have, but only on a lighter level. We have been stigmatized to have pederastic preaches and a lot of horrible things on media.

And even like that, I wouldn't be close to your feelings.

But let me tell you this, Alajh (YES at Holly Land we Muslims, Jewish and Christians in general call God Alajh, so I feel it is ok to call it the same here) doesn't ever leave us alone, somehow He wanted us to be born on a particular religion and when we grow and mature, we are able to decide wether we want it or not.

The problem now comes when we speak about Churches, and that they are operated by humans and that those humans have some kind of predilections for their specific ideas and as leaders they can influence their people to follow those ideas "in the name of god".

Now as if that wasn't enough we now speak about politics and Country needs and with that, Economy. Where does this lead us?

The money I give to the Catholic church goes to The Vatican, and thus it transforms itself to Euros, then the Dollar Looses power. The money Jewish give, some part goes to Israel and therefore transforming itself into another currency. Same thing aplies to Muslims... Why doesn't it apply to other Christian non Catholic Churches? Because their base is within the US. Now everybody make their own asumptions.

Each and every Religion has a Fundamentalist Wing which leads some believers to extremes. Christianism does, even in the particular case of Catholics, we do have a fundamentalist wing. Judaism does have it too.

From the very little I've been spoken about the Koran, I know that it speaks about Love an Compasion in a very nice manner, in its nature Islam is a very peaceful Religion. Very very strict, but it searches the same thing Internal Peace.

I may believe that my Religion is the "Right One", but I still respect yours. And we should all to.

About freedom of beliefs, well we all know a little bit about Politics and that sometimes Politics is like a Religion that for strategic measures, it shouldn't accept other ways of thinking than theirs.

Now I must tell you, Allways be happy of your Beliefs, never deny them and teach them to your Baby, make him (or her) a good person, proud of his or her history. As long as you teach to love and respect others any religion is ok.

Basic Jewish view of God

Judaism is based on a strict unitarian monotheism, the belief in one God. The prayer par excellence in terms of defining God is the Shema Yisrael, "Hear O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One", also translated as "Hear O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is unique/alone."

God is non-physical, non-corporeal, and eternal. A corollary belief is that God is utterly unlike man, and can in no way be considered anthropomorphic. All statements in the Hebrew Bible and in rabbinic literature which use anthropomorphism are held to be linguistic conceits or metaphors, as it would otherwise be impossible to talk about God at all

The idea of God as a duality or trinity is heretical - it is considered akin to polytheism. "[God], the Cause of all, is one. This does not mean one as in one of a pair, nor one like a species (which encompasses many individuals), nor one as in an object that is made up of many elements, nor as a single simple object that is infinitely divisible. Rather, God is a unity unlike any other possible unity.

While Jews hold that duality or trinity conception of God is incorrect, non-Jews who hold such beliefs are not held culpable

Thank you Ed for the posts you wrote. It's so humbling to read them in full. You are truly a gentle soul. I have been trying to go to a synagogue for some time now, but I keep missing the time for the service on the Sabbath. A couple of weeks ago I saw a Jewish man, the yarmulka gave him away, in the store and so I walked to him and introduced myself as a Muslim; and we talked for a little while; I never done that before and it felt good. I don't know but I feel some kind of kinship towards my cousins and my fellow Jewish people inspite of all the politics going on in the Middle East...
may God bless you and have mercy on your soul.

Shalom

THE CHALLENGE.
to those who doubt the creator lord ,let them creat a mosquto.

to those who doubt the word of the creator lord(quran)let them bring one verse like it.

to those who doubt muhamed the last and final messenger to mankind,he started as one man now its 1.5 BILLION man.1428 years and still rolling,increasing ,booming,and challengeing.

the CHALLENGE is good till the last day.go for it if you have the brain ,go for it if you have the guts.

I’m Jewish; my background / introduction is the sixth entry (March 15) at
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/editorsinbox/2007/02/06/share_your_faith_story.html

As a Jew, I’m well aware that during many centuries the Jews have been treated better as a minority in Muslim countries than in Christian countries. I found the review of some past problems above by “Historian” fascinating, but it doesn’t change my view on that. Let’s not review here tales of Christian expulsions of Jews (and worse.) The issue is not what happened in the past, but what ought to happen in the future.

Very few non-Muslim Americans have ever visited a mosque. I recommend it. While occasionally the sermon (the Friday afternoon sermon, or “Khutbah”) is on a fine point in the Koran that I don’t have the background for, several have been among the best sermons I’ve heard, and I’d have been happy to have heard them in my synagogue or my wife’s church (I admit that one Khutbah sounded too much like something out of St. Augustine for my Jewish tastes!). The “Social Issues” discussion group is not unlike the corresponding class in my synagogue, and has been happy to have a Jewish voice participating..

Yes, you’ll encounter extreme nationalists and religious extremists in many countries, many religions, and many historical periods. A remarkable feature of the United States is that it has allowed a great many religious beliefs to flourish and most of them have found ways to coexist respectfully with one another and even to learn and benefit from one another. And that is the sort of religion I find in my neighborhood mosque in Memphis, Tennessee. It has a great many immigrants among its members, and I find that it is doing a lot of the same “Americanization” work that my grandparents’ synagogues did a century ago. It is thrilling to me, as an American, to hear a Muslim immigrant to the US explaining to a roomful of others - “We are Americans now. This is our country. If any of don’t feel like Americans, your children will. You have to raise them to live as Americans.”

Muslim minorities have gotten along very well in many places in the world in the past, said the Muslim speaking to Muslims. Learn about the American political system, learn the way Americans make decisions. It was a talk any American should have been happy with. But this sort of moderate Muslim voice - as widespread as it is in this country - isn’t “news”. There are moderate and informative web sites out there - look at, say, //isna.com . It certainly does address the problem of anti-Muslim sentiment, but much of what is there (or in their magazine) is not very different from the web sites or magazines of the Presbyterians or the Methodists, or the Reform Jews. Muslims face the same everyday problems, made worse by the hostility they sometimes encounter.

Back on September 11, 2001, Osama bin Laden seemed to have one public demand; a war between Islam and the West. Unfortunately, George Bush decided to accede to that demand. Some of the purveyors of anti-Muslim sentiment in this discussion seem to be determined to help bin Laden along. One cure is for us all to learn more about Islam: not the Islam of the fear-mongers, or of tenth-century Arabia, or of the esoteric theologians, but the practical day-to-day Islam of our neighbors, our American Muslims.

Edward Ordman

Deist Deb
Please forgive me and accept my sincere apology. No one should ever mistakes a deist for a Christian. I turned into the biggot these guys are...

Pablo,

"Food for thought":

Every Christian has his/her own interpretation of the Word of God. Four different books, at least five auxiliary books/epistles, competing theologians/sects/protests, and competing stories just in the original set followed by translations and embellishments followed by countless interpretations, hidden codes and raptures. And you are trying to prove the Trinity from such a mess??

IMHO, God needs to have another visit to a mountaintop to get the mess cleaned up.
Of course, there are the other religions that have the same God but different authentic Words. Very strange that our God could create such confusion don't you think? The whole cacophony smells of politics and economics.

Arabic,

So God only loves people who speak Arabic. I do not think so. God loves all people and He speaks all languages.

Pablo

Pablo,

You wrote: “Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. . . ” (Genesis 1:26). I was not going to bust your bubble but what a he**.
Basically you are implying that God in the TANAK is made up of more than one person. You are using a Hebrew bible which was written by the Jews for the Jews. Why don’t you ask them if your advanced scientific understanding of God is true for they never, never believed God is made up of many persons. The plural you imply is the plural of respect. It’s the language and the idiom of the Semitic language. It never meant plural of numbers. Here is an example from the Quran:

15: 23. And verily, it is We Who give life, and Who give death: it is We Who remain inheritors (after all else passes away). 24. To Us are known those of you who hasten forward, and those who lag behind. 25. Assuredly it is thy Lord Who will gather them together: for He is perfect in Wisdom and Knowledge. 26. We created man from sounding clay, from mud molded into shape;

and in:

50:37. Verily in this is a Message for any that has a heart and understanding or who gives ear and earnestly witnesses (the truth). 38. We created the heavens and the earth and all between them in Six Days, nor did any sense of weariness touch Us. 39. Bear, then, with patience, all that they say, and celebrate the praises of thy Lord, before the rising of the sun and before (its) setting. 40. And during part of the night, (also,) celebrate His praises, and (so likewise) after the postures of adoration. 41. And listen for the Day when the Caller will call out from a place quiet near,- 42. The Day when they will hear a (mighty) Blast in (very) truth: that will be the Day of Resurrection. 43. Verily it is We Who give Life and Death; and to Us is the Final Goal- 44. The Day when the Earth will be rent asunder, from (men) hurrying out: that will be a gathering together,- quite easy for Us. 45. We know best what they say; and thou art not one to overawe them by force. So admonish with the Qur'an such as fear My Warning!

No one ever accused the Muslims of ever worshiping a multi-person God. So get off of it already. You only show your lack of understanding when you keep using the same verses over and over again to prove your pagan trintiy.

Arabic wrote:

"The language of Arabic is so rich that any translator can translate certain verses that fit their motives...So unless you actually know Arabic, I don't trust anybody's post on this blog."

Most Muslim scholars (translators) have stated they knew Arabic and actually studied it in madrassas. So are these translators lying ? If Allah's timeless message can be subject to whims and fancies of the translator, then Allah's followers (Muslim translators) have taken him for a ride. Thus, Islam is a false religion - as its message to humanity depends on who is translating.

Hannabal wrote:

"Deb,

I am still waiting to see a verse from you that compares with what I have stated; and please don’t tell me you can’t come up with on measly verse from sixty six books and thousands of verses in the good book."

Who cares ? I am not a Christian, but a deist. The point you don't seem to get is that Islam and US Constitituon (Bill of Rights) are mutually annihilatory. Why do I need to quote some antiquated/obscurantist verse to compare against Islam - such as Quran [009:029] to what end ? Are you now going to change your tactic to state that US Constitution (Bill of Rights) is inferior to the barbaric system in the Sharia ?

And yet again:

"What a difference between the theology of man and God’s word. It's like night and day"

So what ? How does that explain why Eboo Patel thinks Muslims are discriminated in USA ? Get real, man !

All the people who want to insult Islam in favor of Christianity, look to the Pope...

Pope John Paul II on Islam

"We adore God and profess total submission to him. Thus, in a true sense, we can call one another brothers and sisters in faith in the one God,"

"Christians and Muslims generally we have understood each other badly. Sometimes in the past we have opposed each other and even exhausted ourselves in polemics and wars. I believe that God is calling us today to change our old habits. We have to respect each other and stimulate each other in good works upon the path indicated by God. In a world that desires unity and peace, but which experiences a thousand tensions and conflicts, believers should foster friendship and union among humanity and the people who comprise a single community on earth"

"May the hearts of Christians and Muslims turn to one another with feelings of brotherhood and friendship, so that the Almighty may bless us with the peace which heaven alone can give. To the One, Merciful God be praise and glory for ever. Amen."

You guys can't claim that you know more about Christianity than the Pope!

All those who are quoting the Qur'aan, how many of you actually know Arabic?

The language of Arabic is so rich that any translator can translate certain verses that fit their motives...So unless you actually know Arabic, I don't trust anybody's post on this blog.

John 3:13 No one has gone up to heaven except the Son of Man(what about Elijah and Enoch?), who came down from there. 14And the Son of Man must be lifted up, just as that metal snake was lifted up by Moses in the desert. [a] 15Then everyone who has faith in the Son of Man will have eternal life. 16God loved the people of this world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who has faith in him will have eternal life and never really die. 17God did not send his Son into the world to condemn its people. He sent him to save them! 18No one who has faith in God's Son will be condemned. But everyone who doesn't have faith in him has already been condemned for not having faith in God's only Son.

How about the people that never heard of Jesus or the ones that the missionaries have done a terribly bad job at convincing given the absurdity of the dogma.

According to John any one who doesn’t believe Jesus is God’s son is already damned caput, tko’ed and done away with here on this earth. The result is of course total disregard for the life of the other. To the born again Christian life of the unbeliever is sacred no more for he is already damned and destined for the hell fire. He is numb to the suffering of the unbeliever. That’s the reason countless number of people have their lives snuffed away using this theology of “love.” The Native Americans will tell you about how they were treated like savages and almost gone extinct and their culture done away with and forced to convert or die at the hands of their loving Christians masters. They will tell you about how their land was forcibly taken away from them at the point of the gun and forced to live in ghettos and reservations and about their kids being forced to attend bible schools to brainwash them. The same happened to the aborigines in Australia and the list of atrocities goes on and on all over the world.

Compare this with the following in the Quran:

22.17 Those who believe (in the Qur’an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians, Christians, Magians, and Polytheists,- God will judge between them on the Day of Judgment: for God is witness of all things.

We Muslims do not judge and we do not try to play God here on earth. We leave that to our maker. Here is a nugget you will not find in the book of John or in the rest of the good book.

5:48. To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what God hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God. It is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute.
Plain and simple and to the point I might add. No dogmas and no hair splitting theology. I like that in Islam where it appeals to the inner being of man and his common sense.

Deb,

I am still waiting to see a verse from you that compares with what I have stated; and please don’t tell me you can’t come up with on measly verse from sixty six books and thousands of verses in the good book.

But the essence of Islam is this:

2:177. It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in God and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfill the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the God fearing.

And :

002.132 And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! God has chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of submission(to God)." 2.133 Were you witnesses when death appeared before Jacob? Behold, he said to his sons: "What will you worship after me?" They said: "We shall worship your god and the god of your fathers, of Abraham, Isma’il and Isaac,- the one (True) god: To Him we bow submission." 2.134 That was a people that have passed away. They shall reap the fruit of what they did, and you of what you do! Of their merits there is no question in your case! 2.135 They say: "Become Jews or Christians if you would be guided (To salvation)." Say thou: "Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with God." 2.136 Say ye: "We believe in God, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma’il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to God in submission." 2.137 So if they believe as you believe, they are indeed on the right path; but if they turn back, it is they who are in schism; but God will suffice you as against them, and He is the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing.

Compare that to John 3:18.
What a difference between the theology of man and God’s word. It's like night and day.

Jihadist,

Your soul is yours to save.

Simply admit that the Koran is not god-inspired. That it was written by some militaristic and women-hating scribe(s) who plagiarized the OT and NT, two other "good" books that have their own problems with myths, guilt trips and embellishments. Bottom line you should take the best from all the "good" books and become "MultiFaithed". And fear not, there is no religion in Heaven.

Anonymous,

Lets roll with one question at a time. We will start with the trinity as I have laid out above.

Pablo

Dear Jihadist,

I have laid out the proof for the Trinity and I have addressed the Muslim claim of the absolute oneness of God. All I have received in response is unqualified statements and name calling. In other words I have not found a Muslim who wants to really consider these things. I also have not received a satisfactory answer to why we Christians and Jews should believe Muhammad had revelations from God that corrects the Bible? Muslims say they believe in the Old Testament and the Prophets yet they doubt that God has the ability to keep His word pure and claim that it has been corrupted. Please let’s talk about these things with the formal rules of debate. I challenge all Muslims to prove their case. I challenge all Muslims prove that the Bible is corrupted. I challenge all Muslims to a debate on the nature of God.

Debate on the Trinity

“Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. . . ” (Genesis 1:26).

“So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them” (Genesis 1:27).

Notice that verse 27 includes both male and female as being made in the image of God. I submit to you that being made in the image of God includes the relational aspect of God. That is God has always been a God of relationship because He has always existed in three persons who are united as one in a relationship of one. I believe that being made in the image of God includes both male and female. Notice, God speaking in verse 26 says “Let us.” Let us do what? “make man in OUR own image. Man and woman are created in the image of God. The first man and woman were created as “one flesh.” Being created in the image of God includes two people who are one.

Questions
In Christianity Man and Woman are both made in the image of God and their relationship of one is part of being made in the image of God. In other words God’s image is most clearly seen in the man and woman relationship of one.
In Islam does God have to create another person to have a relationship of love with someone?

Why does God use plural personal pronouns when speaking of His creative act of making Man and Woman in His own image?

Pablo

" Somehow, my Muslim baby will look like Osama bin Laden to millions of Americans."

- i don't see this conclusion properly supported; rather, its the specious backbone of a rather specious blog. You seem to -want- to be offended, to take the offense of others and wear it as a badge. i wonder if your panice attacks are real, or the hyperbolic machination of someone trying to make their point?

Anonymous wrote:

"If Jesus is God, why did Stephen see two individuals in heaven?"

Simply because Stephen was reading the posts by Anonymous.

It's truly that simple.

Victoria wrote:

"google islam- and any subject you can think of-
moderates- 911 - response to violence- anything-
read the voluminous voices of muslims"

So, now Islam needs to be noodled and googled ? The Quran (as one reads in the English translations by Abdulah Yusuf Ali) are all meaningless ?

The false doctrine of the Trinity is absurd and my following post will prove that.

Let’s look at the doctrine of the Trinity through 51 questions and we will readily see that it is truly absurd and false if we try an answer these questions. It does NOT stand up to scrutiny. Check your own Bibles with respect the scriptures mentioned in many of the questions and seriously think on the others; be like the Boerns at Acts 17:11, “Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of the mind, examining the Scriptures daily, whether these things were so.” (American Standard Version; ASV) and only accept sound doctrine in keeping with the admonishment given at Titus 2:1, “But speak thou the things which befit the sound doctrine” (ASV):

1. If belief in the Trinity is so important to our salvation why isn't the word "Trinity", or the concept of three being one found in the Bible?
2. Why didn't the apostles and early Christians believe in the Trinity? (If you say they did, prove it from the Scriptures or quotations from one of the ante-Nicene Fathers before 200 AD.)
3. Since the Trinity was so contrary to the Jewish belief in God, why didn't Jesus and his apostles expend considerable time and effort in teaching and stressing the Trinity so as to convince the Jews of the truth of it, as they did other Christian teachings?
4. If the Trinity Doctrine was a solidly based truth, why didn't Jesus and his disciples contradict the Shema of the Old Testament? "Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah." (Deut 6:4) Jesus even quoted this scripture at Mark 12:29.
5. Why would God tell his people to have nothing to do with the Pagan nations, if those Pagan nations had the right concept and beliefs about God? (a Trinity concept of God, as part of their worship, can be traced to virtually all Pagan nations of ancient times)
6. If Jesus is God, then who is the God of God? Jesus speaks of "my God" even in heaven. Why does Jesus say he has a God, if indeed he was God? (John 20:17; Revelation 3:12; 1:6; 1 Peter 1:3; 2 Cor. 1:3; Eph. 1:17; Ps. 89:26; Mark 15:34; Col. 1:3; Heb. 1:9; Ps. 45:7) Why is it that never in the Bible is the Father reported to refer to the Son as "my God", nor does either the Father or the Son refer to the holy spirit as "my God"?
7. Why is the Holy Spirit's role of the Trinity played down so much? Since the scriptures tell us that Mary was made pregnant by Holy Spirit, that would make the Holy Spirit THE FATHER. So who was the Father Father of?
8. Whose voice was it that spoke from the heavens when Jesus was baptized?
9. Who was Jesus praying to when he prayed? Himself?
10. If Jesus were God, why would Satan waste his time trying to tempt him? Was God Vulnerable?
11. Who has immortality? God? Jesus died (an impossibility of one with immortality) and was dead for parts of three days. How could God die? Who resurrected him? (Heb 5:7; Rev 2:8)
12. Who was Jesus talking to when hanging on his torture stake at Matthew 27:46? "About the ninth hour Jesus called out with a loud voice, saying: '...My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?'"
13. Since the doctrine of the Trinity states that the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are coexistent and coequal; was Jesus lying at John 14:28 when he said "The Father is greater than I."? If Jesus meant he, as one third of the Trinity, was less the whole of the three in the Godhead then why did he not rather say 'God is greater than I'? How could Jesus state that one person of the Trinity was greater than another person of the Trinity? If the Son was lesser than himself while on earth, then where was that part of him that was coequal and coexistent with the Father?
14. If John 10:30 shows that Jesus and God are the same person when it says: "I and the Father are one.", explain John 17:20-26, "...in order that they may be one, just as we are one." Who was Jesus talking to? Does this mean that Jesus' true disciples are the same as God and Jesus and thus are apart of the Trinity (many-entity)?
15. If Jesus was really God on earth, how would there be a corresponding ransom? That would make Jesus a perfect God/man, while Adam was just a perfect man.
16. Who is the Son subjecting himself to at 1 Corinthians 15:28?
17. Does Matthew 3:11 indicate that the Holy Spirit is a person? (Water and fire are not persons)
18. How could the Holy Spirit be a person when it filled about 120 disciples at the same time? (Acts 2:4) How can you be full of someone?
19. If Jesus were Almighty God, why didn't Jesus correct Simon Peter when he asked him who he thought he was and Peter answered "You are the Son of the living God."? (Matthew 16:15-17)
20. If Jesus is God, explain the scripture at John 1:18, "No man has seen God."
21. Explain Revelation 1:1, if Jesus was God. If Jesus himself were part of a Godhead, would he have to be given a revelation by another part of the Godhead, God? Surely he would have known all about it, for God knew.
22. If Jesus is God, why call him Jesus Christ? Is Christ his last name? God was known as Jehovah God. Since "Christ" is just a title just like "God" is a title, shouldn't we just call him Jesus God? Or could it be that the tit le "Christ" gives us insight as to Jesus' position in relation to the Father?
23. Explain what the apostle Paul was concerned about in 2 Corinthians 11:3,4; Galatians 1:6-9; and Acts 20:29. Could it be he was warning about doctrines such as the Trinity? The Trinity Doctrine is of Pagan origin. That is Historical Fact. It was not accepted into the Christian Congregation until hundreds of years after the apostles were dead and gone. In 325 C.E. It was a non-Christian, a not baptized Pagan, who had murdered his son, his second wife, and several others of his relatives, who was responsible for bringing it into the Congregation as dogma. The Trinity teaches quite a different Christ than the apostle Paul taught. (l Corinthians 11:3, 8:5,6)
24. If the proper translation of John 1:1 is "God" and not "a god", simply because of the lack the "a" in the Greek text before the anathrous noun, God, then the same must be true of Acts 28:6. Why have ALL translations added the "a" in this scripture showing the apostle Paul to be thought "a god" instead of "God" when the preposition "a" doesn't exist in the Greek Text? Could it be that the context indicates such a translation as the correct one? Take a closer look at the context of John 1:1.
25. John 5:19 tells us that the "Son does nothing on his own". Why not?
26. Philippians 2:9-11 tells us that the Son was "exalted". When was this, and how is this possible if he is the Supreme One himself?
27. How is it that the Son is subjected to God along with all other things if the Son is coequal with the Father, or rather IS the Father also? (1 Corinthians 15:27,28
28. Who was Jesus talking to, and whose name had he made known? His Own? (John 17:6,26)
29. Why couldn't Jesus do anything of his own initiative, if he is Almighty God? (John 5:30 "I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative;...I seek not my own will but the will of him that sent me.") If Jesus were God, would he not send himself? (John 6:38 "Not my will, but the will of him that sent me.")
30. Who made Jesus come to the earth to die for us? Was it his idea? Hebrews 2:9 says: "but we behold Jesus who has been made a little lower than angels, crowned with glory and honor for having suffered death, that he by God's undeserved kindness might taste death for every [man]." It was God who sent him. If Jesus were God, why even make the distinction here, as is done throughout the Scriptures?
31. In view of Hebrews 2:9, could God ever at any time be lower than the angels? He is Almighty to time indefinite.
32. If Jesus were God, how could he appear before the person or presence of himself? Hebrew 9:24 states: "For Christ entered, not into a holy place made with hands, which is a copy of the reality, but into heaven itself, now to appear before the person (presence KJB) of God for us."
33 . Could it really be possible that the Almighty God and the creator of the universe was confined for nine months in the womb of Mary. If so, why didn't Satan take over the heavens with his demon angels and procure worship for himself, since this is what he has wanted from the beginning?
34. Since the angels are also called Sons of God (Gen 6:2), what does it mean that Jesus was God's only begotten son? (John 1:14; John 3:l6; 1 John 4:9) [Jesus was the only one directly created by God. All other things were created through (Greek: di', meaning instrument used) Jesus. Colossians 1:16-18. Gen 1:26 "Let us make man in our image." Jesus was his father's Master Worker. (Prov 8:22)]
35. If Jesus was God and from time indefinite to time indefinite, the Alpha and the Omega, without a beginning, etc., how could he be referred to as the FIRSTBORN of all creation, or the BEGINNING of creation? (Col 1:15; Rev 3:14
36. What is a son? If Jesus were actually God himself, why is he referred to as the Son of God, or God's Son over 85 times in the New Testament? Is the Bible making an inaccurate statement in each case? Why even describe him as the Son of God and confuse us if he was in fact Almighty God himself? Wouldn't it be simpler to just say that God came to the earth, the Almighty was born of a virgin, etc.? Why would Jesus continually talk about his Father in the heavens if in fact he was the Father in the form of the Son here on the earth? Wouldn't that be misrepresentation? (Luke 1:30-32)
37. If Jesus Christ is going to rule the Kingdom for a thousand years, (Revelation 20:4) who rules after that? 1 Corinthians 15:24 shows that Jesus turns all things over to GOD and his FATHER. Why would this be necessary if they are the same? Does this mean that Jesus turns it over to himself?
38. Mark 13:32 tells us: "Of that day or that hour no ones knows, not even the angel s in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." How could this be that the Father would know something that the Son would not, if they are truly coequal comprising one Godhead? And if, as some suggest, it was because the Son was limited by his human nature from knowing, why did the Holy Spirit not know?
39. "The mother of the sons of Zebedee...said to him [Jesus], 'Command that these two sons of mine may sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your Kingdom.' But Jesus answered,...'You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not my mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.'" (Matt 20:20-23) Why would Jesus say this if he was God? Was Jesus here merely answering according to his "human nature"? If, as Trinitarians say, Jesus was truly "God-man", both God and man, not one or the other, would it truly be consistent to resort to such an explanation? Does not Matt 20:2 3 rather show that the Son is not equal to the Father, and that the Father has reserved some prerogatives for himself?
40. Matthew 26:39 says: "Going a little farther he [Jesus Christ] fell on his face and prayed, 'My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.'" If the Father and the Son were of one substance and not distinct individuals, wouldn't such a prayer have been meaningless? Jesus would have been praying to himself, and his will would of necessity have been the Father's will.
41. Matthew 12:31,32 tells us: "Every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." Since if one sins against the Son and it is forgiven him, but if one sins against the Holy Spirit, it is no t forgiven him, does this mean that in some way the Holy Spirit is somehow greater than the Son? That would flatly contradict the Trinity.
42. The Hebrew word Shad dai' and the Greek word Pan tokra'tor are both translated "ALMIGHTY". Both original language words are repeatedly applied to Jehovah, the Father. (Exodus 6:3; Revelation 19:6) Why isn't this _expression ever applied to the Son or the Holy Spirit?
43. Since 1 Corinthians 11:3 says: "I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.", doesn't that show that God is of superior rank to Christ? Some feel that this is because Jesus was here on the earth. But it should be noted that this was written about 55 C.E., some 22 years after Jesus returned to heaven. So the truth here stated applies to the relationship between God and Christ in heaven.
44. Why isn't Jesus the One God that Christians are to worship? 1 Corinthians 8:5,6 reads: "Although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth - as indeed there are many 'gods' and many 'lords'-yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist." This presents the Father as the "one God" of Christians and as being in a class distinct from Jesus Christ.
45. Throughout the Scriptures Jesus is shown to be inferior to the Father in one respect or another such as at John 14:28 ("The Father is greater than I"). Since these Scriptures are often explained away by saying this was because the Son was limited by his fleshly form here on earth, does that mean that for 33 years there was no Trinity? Does that mean that for 33 years the Son was not Coequal, Coexistent, and Coeternal with the Father?
46. How can you use John 8:58 "Before Abraham was, I AM." and link it to Jehovah's statement at Exodus 3:14 "I AM has sent you"? Doing so would be making Jesus' statement "I AM" a title, a noun, thus making an improper sentence, an incomplete sentence, not making any sense. [EXAMPLE: Substitute any noun for "I AM": "Before Abraham was, house." etc.]
47. Why was Jesus viewed as the "one mediator between God and men,"? Since by definition a mediator is someone separate from those who need mediation, it would be a contradiction for Jesus to be one entity with either of the parties he is trying to reconcile. (Illustration: When Employers and Union personnel are negotiating a new contract, and are not getting anywhere, a Federal Mediator is called in to assist the two parties. He is impartial. He wouldn't be a fair mediator if he was actually an Employer, or a Union person would he? Likewise Jesus is a mediator between God and men. He is neither God or a man). When dealing only with one party you are not dealing with a mediator. As Galatians 3:20 states: "Now a mediator is not [a mediator] of one, but God is one."
48. What does it mean when Jesus is called Jesus CHRIST? It is not his last name. Christ means "Anointed One". If Jesus is God, how is it that he has been anointed? And by whom? Anointing is the giving of authority or a commission by a superior to someone who does not already have authority. Jesus said: "Jehovah's spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor." (Luke 4:18) Here God is plainly the superior, for he anointed Jesus, giving him authority that he did not previously have.
49. How is it that Jesus had to learn obedience? Hebrews 5:8 tells us that Jesus "learned obedience from the things he suffered." Can we imagine that God had to learn anything? No but Jesus did, for he did not know everything that God knew. And he had to learn something that God never needs to learn, OBEDIENCE. God never has to obey anyone.
50. If Jesus is God, why did Stephen see two individuals in heaven? Stephen "gazed into heaven and caught sight of God's glory and of Jesus standing at God's right hand." (Acts 7:55) Clearly he saw two separate individuals. And if Jesus is part of a triune Godhead, why didn't Stephen see the Holy Spirit also, or three individuals?
51. If any of the above questions are ultimately answered with the statement: IT'S A MYSTERY, then explain the following scriptures: 1 Corinthians 2:10; 1 John 5:20; 2 Tim 2:7; Eph 3:5, 1 Pet 1:12; and Luke 24:45. [courtesy of D. Harris]

A Handle:

what do you know about islam? what you have been taught by the political correct media and our politically educational system?

Al-Shawkani
Suyuti in his book استنباط التنزيل (Istenbat al tanzeel) says: “Every thing in the Qur'an about forgiveness is abrogated by verse 9:5.” Al-Shawkani in his book السيل الجرار (Alsaylu Jarar 4:518-519) says: “Islam is unanimous about fighting the unbelievers and forcing them to Islam or submitting and paying Jiziah (special tax paid only by Christians or Jews) or being killed. [The verses] about forgiving them are abrogated unanimously by the obligation of fighting in any case.”
Please note that I am not telling Muslims which verses to follow and which not. As I said earlier, I believe 100% in an individual’s right to choose his or her beliefs. However, what I am saying is that according to the Islamic doctrine of abrogation, these verses are null and void. They are contradicted by later verses, and in Islam it is the later verses which must be followed today.

Jihadist,

I know you want Victoria to stay Muslim so you are fanning the flames. With a screen name like Jihadist stop talking about people burning people at the stake.

Victoria:)

See what I mean. Read Deb Chatterjee's and Historian's posts.

Deb Chatterjee is so livid, she even misquoted Marx that religion is the opinion of the people. Not opiate.

And Historian is going into dhimmis of centuries past and not quite correct in his "facts" too.

And they are even talking about whether you should be regarded as an "enemy" or otherwise.

Are they going to burn you at the stakes (like a witch or heretic) or hang you up a tree like a lynched black next?

Errrr....we have met the enemy and it is our intolerance, hatred, fear and bigotry?

This is quite a modern day Inquisition if I ever saw one in the US. McCarthyism of religion?

Have you no decency sirs and madames?

Jihadist and Victoria

It is almost comical to me that both of you react to my post as if it is anti-Islam. But then, you are conditioned to being defensive.

Jihadist you say you are unconcerned about correcting the views of Americans -- okay then stop complaining.

Victoria, you say you speak out all the time. In fact, perhaps you speak out too much -- missing the point entirely at times and spewing a torrent of stuff.

Let me make it simple. I agree there is bigotry and misunderstanding against Islam.

Bigotry and misunderstanding come from ignorance.

If Muslims are not willing to take on the mantle of educating people about their religion, who will?

Don't count on Jerry Falwell or Pat Roberstson.

Jewish Dhimmis

On December 30, 1066, Muslim mob stormed the royal palace in Granada, crucified Jewish vizier Joseph ibn Naghrela and massacred most of the Jewish population of the city.

In the 12th century, rulers of the Almohad dynasty killed or forcibly converted Jews and Christians in Al-Andalus and the Maghreb, putting an end to the existence of Christian communities in North Africa outside Egypt.[55][56] In an effort to survive under Almohads, most Jews resorted to practicing Islam outwardly, while remaining faithful to Judaism; they openly reverted to Judaism after Almohad persecutions passed. During the Cordoba massacre of 1148, the Jewish philosopher, theologian, and physician Maimonides saved his own life only by converting to Islam; after Maimonides moved to Egypt, this conversion was ruled void by a Muslim judge who was a friend and patient of Maimonides.

In 1656, Shah Abbas I expelled the Jews from Isfahan and compelled them to adopt Islam, although the order was subsequently withdrawn, possibly because of the loss of fiscal revenues. In the early 18th century, Shia'a clergy attempted to force all dhimmis to embrace Islam, but without success. In 1830, all 2,500 Jews of Shiraz were forcibly converted to Islam. In 1839, Jews were massacred in Mashhad and survivors were forcibly converted. The same fate awaited the Jews of Barforoush in 1866, even though they were allowed to revert to Judaism after an intervention from the British and French ambassadors.

The Almohads and Muslim authorities in Yemen practiced forcible conversion of children. This practice was based on the belief that every child is born a Muslim. Suspecting a lack of sincerity on the part of Jews who were forcibly converted to Islam, Almohad rulers took Jewish children from their parents and raised those children as Muslims.[64] In Yemen, a 1922 Zaydi statute known as the Orphans Decree obligated the state to take under its protection and convert any dhimmi child whose parents had died (later extended to include fatherless children). Although possibly intended to alleviate the plight of orphaned children, the Jewish community was dismayed,and Jewish leaders who helped hide orphans were imprisoned and sometimes tortured.

In the Maghreb during changes of reign and periods of instability, Jewish quarters were pillaged and their inhabitants either massacred or abducted for ransom.

Outbreaks of violence, including massacres and expulsions, directed against dhimmis became more frequent from the late 18th century. In 1790, Jews were massacred in Tetouan and then in 1828, in Baghdad. In mid-19th century a wave of violence and forced conversions of Jews swept across Persia: in 1834, Jews were massacred in Safed, in 1839 in Mashhad, and in 1867 in Barforoush. Other outbreaks followed in Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, and other Arab countries of the Middle East.[102] In 1860, 5,000 Christians were massacred in Damascus.In 19th-century Iraq, especially in the area of Mosul, both Jews and Christians lived in a state of constant insecurity. Jewish quarters were destroyed in 1912 in Fes and as late as in 1948 in San‘a’.

All dhimmis:
Dhimmis were frequently referred to by derogatory names, both in the official and in the everyday speech. In the Ottoman Empire, the official appellation for dhimmis was "raya", meaning "a herd of cattle". In the Muslim parlance, "apes" was the standard epithet for the Jews, while Christians were frequently denoted as "pigs". These animalistic parallels were rooted in the Qur'anic verses describing some People of the Book being transformed into apes and pigs (Qur'an 5:60).

Echoing a saying attributed to Muhammad (Sahih Muslim 26:5389), Hasan al-Kafrawi, an 18th century scholar, advises that "if you [Muslims] encounter one of them [dhimmis] on the road, push him into the narrowest and tightest spot".Both Muslim sources and European travelers to the Middle East describe humiliations and insults of dhimmis, and especially of the Jews. Throwing of stones at dhimmis was a favorite amusement of Muslim children in many places from early times until nowadays

Regulations on dhimmi clothing varied frequently to please the whims of the ruler. Although the initiation of such regulations is usually attributed to Umar I, historical evidence suggests that it was the Abbasid caliphs who pioneered this practice. In 807, Harun al-Rashid ordered that Jews should wear high cone caps and yellow belts, the first prototypes of the yellow badge; Christians had to wear blue belts. These distinction marks became obsolete in 849 when al-Mutawakkil ordered dhimmis to put a yellow veil on their heads and shoulders and wear a wide belt. He also required them to wear small bells in public baths. In the 11th century, the Fatimid caliph Al-Hakim ordered Christians to put on half-meter wooden crosses and Jews to wear wooden calves around their necks. In the late 12th century, Almohad ruler Abu Yusuf ordered the Jews of the Maghreb to wear dark blue garments with long sleeves and saddle-like caps. His grandson Abdallah made a concession after appeals from the Jews, relaxing the required clothing to yellow garments and turbans. In the 16th century, Jews of the Maghreb could only wear sandals made of rushes and black turbans or caps with a red piece of garment on it.[124]

Ottoman sultans were similarly diligent and inventive in regulating the clothings of their non-Muslim subjects. In 1577, Murad III issued a firman forbidding Jews and Christians from wearing dresses, turbans, and sandals. In 1580, he changed his mind, restricting the previous prohibition to turbans and requiring dhimmis to wear black shoes; Jews and Christians also had to wear red and black hats, respectively. Observing in 1730 that some Muslims took to the habit of wearing caps similar to those of the Jews, Mahmud I ordered the hanging of the perpetrators. Mustafa III personally helped to enforce his decrees regarding clothes. In 1758, he was walking incognito in Istanbul and ordered the beheading of a Jew and an Armenian seen dressed in forbidden attire. The last Ottoman decree affirming the distinctive clothing for dhimmis was issued in 1837 by Mahmud II. Discriminatory clothing did not exist only in those Ottoman provinces where Christians were in majority, e.g. in Greece and the Balkans.

Shi'a Islam devotes much attention to the issues of ritual purity — tahara. Strict Shi'as consider Non-Muslims ritually unclean — najis — so that certain physical contact with them or things they touched with wet hands would require purification before undertaking religious or ritual duties. In Persia, where Shi'ism is dominant, these beliefs brought about restrictions that aimed at limiting physical contact between Muslims and dhimmis. In the late nineteenth-century, some very strict authorities in Iran forbade Jews to go out in rain or snow.

Pablo, Concerned et al

The whole world be converted to Islam? Judging from this thread, it is the Catholics and the evangelicals all fired up to save the souls of Muslims. One actually wondered if Falwell, Robertson and Graham, once having converted all Muslims, peace would reign.

And Victoria,

There is a "group assault" going on you here. You see, it is easier for them to attack Islam and Muslims rather than to explain on their dogmas and beliefs. That is why I never bothered in responding to these types.

The harder they insist their faith is true, the more they insist mine is false, satanic and such, the more I wonder what falseness of theirs they are hiding behind. It makes me wonder too if they are so hyper because they are convincing themselves instead of us. Tell some untruths long enough, tell it often and they will believe it.

They doth protest too much. Actually I don't wonder. Historically, the Christians can't stand the so-called "Muslim certainty" and "arrogance" of their beliefs and in rejecting the dogma of Trinity, atonement, original sin and such. This has been going on for centuries and will continue.

Victoria,

I did not make the post you are talking about. I would not expect outrage from the Muslim community since the Islamic conversion of the whole world flows directly from the Qur'an.

Do you believe that the whole world should and will be converted to Islam one day?

Pablo

Jihadist,

Simply admit that the Koran is not god-inspired. That it was written by some militaristic and women-hating scribe(s) who plagiarized the OT and NT, two other "good" books that have their own problems with myths, guilt trips and embellishments.

Hello Deb,

Victoria is not our enemy and even if she were we should treat her with love and respect as a fellow human being made in the image of God. I do believe that we should attack false belief systems but not people. The reason I say things plainly is because I want them to see the truth and experience the love of God.

Pablo

pablo - dont break your heart and dont call my religion false please-

message received, noted and already decided upon.

thanks for your input- you gave it a try-

im glad you were corrected in your life- i hope it works for you.

please respect my own correctness for myself as i will respect your decision for yourself.

handle- well, im both irish and muslim-

you posted this-

Now anyone can proclaim that he/she is inspired or motivated by religion.

What is curious is that the Muslims of the world are -- for the most part -- curiously silent in not stating clearly that what these people are doing is NOT Islam or Islamic and has no foundation in the religion.

I am so sick of hearing this!

i have posted and posted and posted countless statements by muslims worldwide-
where do you expect to hear moderate muslims??

on fox news????

google islam- and any subject you can think of-
moderates- 911 - response to violence- anything-
read the voluminous voices of muslims

first off- start by reading the post i made earlier- consider it- think about it- and if you dont understand- ask

how much do you want a person to do?

youre just not going to find anything in the media that is positive about muslims

so i do what i can but you also have a responsibility to put in your own mind the truth and not blame muslims for the voices you cant hear because theyre not interesting news-

go to your local mosque or intiate an interfaith dinner as ive done countless times-

but its silly to blame muslims for not speaking-

theyre speaking nonstop all over the world

Hello Deb,

You are right about Jesus. Slavery and every other kind of abuse in our world flow directly from the hearts of sinful humanity not God (Jesus Christ). God is always good. It was not Darwinian Evolution that presupposes Naturalism that stopped slavery it was the Christian worldview. Many Christians did not live up to Jesus' mandate to love their neighbor and stand against injustice but when they finally awakened from their slumber it was the Christian worldview that launched them forward. One great example of this is seen vividly in the recent movie about William Wilberforce. He was a Christian who stood against slavery. If you have not seen the movie I recommend it highly. It is called Amazing Grace. Martin Luther King's movement was also birthed out of the Christian worldview and Jesus mandate to love all people.

Pablo

A Handle

Muslims believe that everyone is responsible for his own actions. So, the terrorists should be pursued, detained and charged in court. Terrorists commits something, headliness scream - Islam is on trial. Or my favourite - Who speaks for Islam? There is no central authority in Islam.

It is like asking American Irish to be answerable and responsible for the actions of IRA, or American Jews for the actions of Isreal.

And as for perceptions, I don't think Muslims in the wider world (outside of the US), really cares about correcting perceptions Americans and Europeans have of them. The perceptions are self induced and perpetuated by US media.

Muslims also have their own perceptions of Americans and the west anyway. And not very flattering mirror images of American perceptions of Muslims and worse too.

I am truly sorry American Muslims have to go through what Eboo and Victoria have here. Someone actually suggested Falwell, Robertson and Graham convert all Muslims to be Christians and such. it is very telling. It is a desire of evangelicals to make everyone see truth and beliefs as they see it. Not just against Muslims, but Wiccans, atheists, Mormons too.

There is, as Ms. Susan Jacoby said, a dumbing down of America. I would add, a bigoting up of America too. Nice example for the world, especially for the wider Muslim world on tolerance, understanding, mutual acceptance and respect.

It gives a very nice excuse for Muslim fundies to say, look, they did the same thing too, those hypocrites.

Victoria wrote:

"never in the history of the world has anyone ever changed an idea or religion or thought because someone else attacked or denigrated their current beliefs or ideas"

That's plain wrong/inaccurate/absurd/ludicrous if one restricts focus on 'ideas'.

Evidences exist exactly to the contrary regarding the changes in 'ideas'. I am sure you are rather ignorant about these historical changes in 'ideas'.

Regarding such changes occuring in 'religion', you are absolutely right.

Religion is the opium of the masses, and hence people don't want to abandon the addiction to religion (opium). They only change brands, i.e., a Christian becomes a Muslim, a Hindu becomes a Buddhist or whatever.

RELIGION IS THE OPINION OF MASSES. - Karl F. Marx

Victoria, why don't you renounce Islam and become a rational human being ?

Dear Victoria,

One of the sins that God hates most is pride. I am so happy that He is patient with me. Many times in my life I have been confronted directly about attitudes and actions in my life that were sinful. Many times I have reacted in a defensive manner without taking into account that the correction was true. For example, at one time I was hostile to Christianity and Christians. I thought that they were all wimpy losers that needed a crutch. My sister became a Christian and started sharing the good news with me. I became angry with her and I said many unkind words to her. I thought, "How dare she judge me." Years past and I came to believe the message she had given me. As I look back at her confronting me with the truth I am now thankful. I did not receive what she said at the time but I did need to be confronted with the good news of Jesus. I had to go through that anger and had to be challenged in order to see that I was on the path to destruction. The way I see it now is that my sister was brave. She knew that she would be rejected for what she shared with me yet she loved me enough to tell me the truth. Many times the truth spoken can make us angry even when the motive of the person sharing the message is pure. If one's pride gets in the way of them hearing the truth that is a tragic thing. I have studied Islam and I talk to Muslims all the time. I have nothing against them personally and my heart breaks that they are in bondage to a false religion. I am also very concerned for my fellow citizens who do not know about Islam and I am going to do all I can to tell them the truth. When you stand before God on judgment day you will not be able to say that Pablo did not care enough to speak the truth to you. My hope and prayer is that you would now the love and grace of Jesus Christ. He died so that you might live. He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life no man comes to the Father except by me" (John 14:6). He said that the greatest love is to lay down one's life for one's friend. He laid down His life for you and then He arose from the dead to conquer death on your behalf. That is how much He loves you. I know I am not good enough for God and that I could never pay the debt I owe for my sin. Jesus paid the debt by shedding Hid blood on the cross for me and you. He arose from the dead so that you could have new life. Do not let your pride keep you from seeing His truth. The Bible says, “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble." What I have said here flows out of a heart of love that comes from Jesus.

Pablo

BTW, after I posted mine above, I scrolled through the other comments -- I had seen a few earlier today and say the author's additional comments. I think he recognizes that the problem lies on both sides.

It is not clear to me that racism or discrimination are operative here in the sense that we have dealt with people's skin color in the past -- it is simply fear that the religion itself requires, promotes, or allows violence.

How do we fix that perception? I suggest that only Muslims can do that.

Time to get started.

This is a thought-provoking piece both for what it says and what it does not say.

Obviously, the one thing it does say is that Muslims are treated differently from others, a common enough lament. What the article does not say and what is often overlooked is that this particular lament is that of all misunderstood or oppressed groups. And what the article also does not say is that while the fault is clearly with the bigots, often there is a heavy dose of contribution by the protestors to the state of affairs in which they find themselves.

In today's Boston Globe, there is an op-ed piece which you might find interesting. Titled "Pride In Being Irish" (BTW, FWIW I am neither Irish nor Muslim)by Michael Patrick MacDonald, it speaks of similar issues for the Irish. Here is the link.

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2007/03/19/pride_in_being_irish/

One sentence may provoke an understanding shake of the head:

"But it matters a lot, especially to those of us who have at one time or another hid from our Irish identification because of clichéd depictions of Irish bigotry from the outside and because a loud minority of closed-minded people in Boston, New York, and Chicago declare themselves 'Irish and proud.' "

You write: "Something profoundly un-American is happening in America: the irrational fear and hatred of a group of people because of an aspect of their identity. People are taking the criminals of this community and superimposing their image on every other member, including children. Somehow, my Muslim baby will look like Osama bin Laden to millions of Americans.

In every other circumstance, we would call this way of thinking absurd at best and racist at worst. If you see an armed robbery suspect on the evening news who happens to be five foot eleven inches, you do not expect every person who is the same height to be an armed robber. That would be absurd. And if that armed robbery suspect happens to be of South Asian descent, you do not hold the first South Asian you see on the subway responsible for his actions. That would be racist."

The problem with these examples is that they confuse condition with cause. In none of these examples does the person committing the crime use the attribute you describe to the commission: the 5'11" does not proclaim that he is robbing in the name of "5fteleveninchesness" - the South Asian does not proclaim that he is robbing the subway because of "SouthAsianness."

On the other hand, the Muslims involved in terrorist activities proclaim that they are doing so in the name of Islam or because Islam commands them to perpetrate whatever they are doing. In Osama bin Laden's case, one of the proclamations was to get "infidels" i.e. non-Muslims out of the sacred Islamic land of Saudi Arabia.

Now anyone can proclaim that he/she is inspired or motivated by religion.

What is curious is that the Muslims of the world are -- for the most part -- curiously silent in not stating clearly that what these people are doing is NOT Islam or Islamic and has no foundation in the religion.

One can go on and suggest there are even pockets of support -- substantial support -- in the sense of cheerleading for such acts among many Muslims.

The result is that Islam becomes equated with the terrorist acts.

I have no quarrel with your description of this as evidencing bigotry on the part of non-Muslims. However, I think that while you and many Muslims lament the phenomenon, you have wholly failed to educate the rest of the world that the premise is false -- because you appear, by your silence, to accept it.

And you are absolutely correct that one can read the comments posted by many in this series On Faith, and find much ugliness. It is not appropriate to insult the Prophet (PBUH) or to denigrate the faith of anyone. Yet, I see people insulting Jesus (see, e.g., the repeated comments by the guy who posts the "hoax" link in response to virtually every comment)and Starhawk complains of discrimination against Wiccans and their attempts to conceal their beliefs and identities for fear of discrimination. BTW, I'm not a Christian or a Wiccan either.

You write: "Read how the commentators insist on highlighting only the dark sides of Islam, making some things up, taking other things out of context and dramatically twisting the tradition to which I belong. Doesn’t every nation/religion/tradition have a dark side?"

Well, you are right and wrong. You too are guilty here. You highlight only the dark side and complain that it should not be attributed to you. In fact, even here you seem to accept that terrorist activities are the "dark side" of Islam.

Where is the forceful denunciation by you and others saying "NO THIS IS NOT ISLAM. WHAT THE TERRORISTS SAY AND DO IS FORBIDDEN BY ISLAM AND IS IN NO WAY ANY PART OF THE RELIGION."?

Finally, you write:
"The Constitution of the country that I love treats human beings of a darker hue as 3/5 of a person. But that is not the entire story of this nation, and it would be perverse to point out only that without also noting how it was in tension with other ethics and how the matter was resolved. Why is it OK to twist Islam?"

Don't you think that you are twisting here and forcing the point? The Constitution has been amended -- the 13th Amendment, remember that? Oh yes, and the 14th too. And the Civil Rights Acts of 1866, 1871, 1964, 1991.

How about "amending" the understanding of the Qu'ran to reflect that what you describe as the "dark side" is no longer a reasonable interpretation of what the religion permits or requires?

I commend you for saying: "I want to be a part of that. Millions of Muslims in America want to be part of building this nation.

The people who are trying to shut us out are not only twisting our faith, they are insulting the soul of this country."

However, it is not so much a question of being shut out, as a question of showing your bona fides at the door.

You have made the proclamation here -- I sure would like to see more of this from Muslims so that the rest of the world can come to grips with the idea that Osama bin Laden and his hatred are not the voice of Islam, and neither are the Taliban or any of the rest of people who insult Islam by desecrating the principles for which it stands --- all the while without so much as a whimper from the rest of the Muslim world.

Good luck with the baby.

Imagine that, a bunch of Americans whose ancestors went to the United States to escape the old world, their previous lives, their former hardships, their persecutions now turning on other Americans.

I am so glad not to be a Muslim living in the US and having to put up with what Eboo, Victoria, Pamela et al has from some Americans who threw Islamic history and some practices that American Muslims have nothing to do with.

It is like taking on Vietnamese Americans for the communism still in Vietnam, the American Catholics for what the Vatican pronounced.

Yes Eboo, and Victoria, I am really sorry for you. An American Muslim sowewhere is wondering - why do they hate me so much? What have I done to them personally? I wonder when he is going to snap and take it out.

Eboo and Victoria, I would like to say chin up, but I can't. I've read everything from Family Security Matters to Commentary, and American Muslims are really, really in trouble.

oo that was directed at deb chatterjee-
punishment wasnt implying a god sitting in judgement- it was the effect of the cause-

thats why i prefaced it with 'if the laws of your universe are abused there are repurcussions-

since i know deb is a hindu, i was using that perspective- there are gods and goddeses who can be pleased and displeased in hinduism- but it was a corollary of ideas- perjhaps ineptly executed-
as for black and white hearts- i figured youd cath the analogy to white and black magic- its a polarized extreme which contains all the shades of grey in the middle-

PABLO- i appreciate your concern formy well-being-

here is a simple idea for your future evngelization- take it to heart as it is meant in a sincere way-

never in the history of the world has anyone ever changed an idea or religion or thought because someone else attacked or denigrated their current beliefs or ideas-

the only reaction to attack of anything is defensive-

no matter how sure or obvious it seems to you personally- few humans respond to aggressive insults about their beliefs-

and if they do respond in a self reflective way- they are spiritually mature enough not to really need guidance- as they already have the self analysis necessary-

the only way to share your own enlightenment with another is to share your light-
cursing anothers darkness only leads to reciprocal curses-

also belittling anothers knowledge does little to bring them to your philosophy-
you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar-

DEB- you know you have been too mean to me in the past- which is patiently endured-
please stop pusing that horrible hateful nutcase maududi on us-

i agree whleheartedly with paganplace-

fear and control seem to be very strong catalysts for peoples presentations-

since the subject is discrimination against muslims-
id say there are many here who are giving solid proof of its existence-

Pablo:

You are right about Christ. Though I am a deist (or an atheist), I can not see how Islamic theory is superior to the Gospels of Christ or Christ's teachings of peace and compassion that have cut across cultures, languages, color and geography.

The irony is that Muslims (and Communists) have confused that barbaric and racist acts of Christians, are one and the same with Christian belief system. This is so fallacious and many westerners cannot see it through.

Unfortunately, Reverend Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell and Graham are not doing much to convert Muslims back to Christianity. If they did exactly that, then the world would probably (?) be a better place.

I mean, I know that odds are if all you folks actually worked out your difference, you'ld all just gang up on the likes of me.

But, still.

Look at yourselves. Look around. Look at the world.

This is serious.

We don't have *time* for this, as a species, and not cause of some divine apocalyptic scenario. Cause this kind of pointless back-and-forth is gonna make us all feel like total boneheads when we're all choking on our own exhaust.

Oh, that's kind of going on, isn't it.

But it won't be some 'glorious judgement day,'

Keep on this track, and it'll be slow, degrading and ignoble, and it's gonna hurt. Won't even be 'the end,' just a really big waste.

Peace, already. More than peace, wake up and get with some kind of program.

Someone mentioned Israel going on to mirror some bad stuff they learned when the Nazis did it to them. That means something. What it means is that you can't win peace by traumatizing people.

Karma and trauma are very related. Both have a way of meaning people try and relive what's bad for them.

Maybe this time, it'll come out different, right? Yah. Right.

I say, we may as well give this America and pluralism thing a fair shot, instead of backing away in fear when things get tough. Look what Rome got out of it.

Again. Peace.

*looking around here.*

Whoo.

See what I mean? Particularly about the books?

Have to wonder what these two 'prophets' (pick your terms) would have come up with if they'd actually met each other.

Would it be like this?

ABDUL wrote:
let me tell you if the muslim media start recipricting against the christians and start the same campaign against you, I bet you it will be hard/impossible for the western world to even go to the toilet, you would prefer peeing in your pant and let alone getting your wives pregnant.
and as for SLAMAN RUSDIE if you ever meet him ask him this question. HOW MANY SECURITY GUARDS GUARD HIS TOILET WHEN HE IS USING ONE, YOU WILL GET YOUR ANSWER.

Well said !!
You are a true muslim indeed !!!

Victoria,

It is not easy for me to tell you this but I will because I really care for your soul. Your westernized, sanitized, pseudo version of Islam is not true Islam. You have to spiritualize the Qur’an, ignore the respected Haddiths and Scholars, and you have to gloss over the actions of the Muslim world to come up with what you have articulated as your belief. You sound so nice but you have been deceived. I am praying for you in the name of God’s Son Jesus Christ who, “. . .bore our sins in His body on the tree”.

“He himself bore our sins in His body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed” (1 Peter 2:24).

Pablo

Al-Shawkani
Suyuti in his book استنباط التنزيل (Istenbat al tanzeel) says: “Every thing in the Qur'an about forgiveness is abrogated by verse 9:5.” Al-Shawkani in his book السيل الجرار (Alsaylu Jarar 4:518-519) says: “Islam is unanimous about fighting the unbelievers and forcing them to Islam or submitting and paying Jiziah (special tax paid only by Christians or Jews) or being killed. [The verses] about forgiving them are abrogated unanimously by the obligation of fighting in any case.”
Please note that I am not telling Muslims which verses to follow and which not. As I said earlier, I believe 100% in an individual’s right to choose his or her beliefs. However, what I am saying is that according to the Islamic doctrine of abrogation, these verses are null and void. They are contradicted by later verses, and in Islam it is the later verses which must be followed today.

None can change the words of God;
-- Sura 6:34

And for whatever verse we abrogate and cast into oblivion
We bring a better or the like of it;
knowest thou not that God is powerful over everything?
-- Sura 2:106

And when We exchange a verse in place of another verse --
and God knows very well what He is sending down --
they say, 'Thou art a mere forger!'
Nay, but the most of them have no knowledge.
-- Sura 16:101

Question from Victoria:

"do you really think 1 1/2 billion people in the world are following a religion that says one thing and then says- oops i changed my mind- never mind what i said before?"

Respuesta de Pablo:
Si

"None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things"(Qur'an 2:106)?

Well, Deb, when Christians and Muslims and Jews says stuff like this about each other:

"Anyway, for every Khalid Abou El Fadl I can cide a Osama bin Laden. Both read the same Quran, but do interpret differently. If interpretation is what makes this so different, then the question arises that Allah's message in the Quran is not unique and is subject to changes with time and place. So, will the real Islam please stand up ?"

Has anyone noticed yet that no religion (or lack thereof, for that matter,) really *does* offer the kind of 'real' and 'perfect' that's demanded of others and claimed about themselves?

This is really about *control.* And some religions and ideologies believe that if things aren't working so nicely, that more of the same will fix any problems. That never, ever works, whether we're talking about God-kings or King-Gods.

Kind of convenient for certain types, that. Why look at systemic problems and real injustices when you can just say, 'It'll be sorted when we have more control.'

It never works out that way.

Especially when Republic starts turning to Empire.

Peace.

Victoria and the rest of the "Islamers",

Cut and paste at will but it will not change the basic problems with your "good" book and the conduct of the fanatics that follow it.

Simply admit that the Koran is not god-inspired. That it was written by some militaristic and women-hating scribe(s) who plagiarized the OT and NT, two other "good" books that have their own problems with myths, guilt trips and embellishments.

Dear Victoria,

Instead of making statements like:

"It seems youve discovered some new islamophobic website-a little knowledge is a dangerous thing pablo- islam is not a religion of simplemindedness or fundamentalist literal interpertations-"

refute what I have said. It really does not address the issue when you attack my supposed lack of knowledge about Islam. You have refuted nothing I have said. I do not need an anti-Islamic website to expose the true nature of Islam. All that I need is the Qur'an, the Haddiths, and the actions of the Islamic world. Again, I cannot understand how you do not see the evil of Islam. It is so crystal clear.

Pablo

Victoria:

Please spare the gory details that you are regurgigating here without any possible comprehension of the core problem.

Just as you have cited many sources and claimed their authenticity, simply because they profess to uphold values compatible with the Western way of life, I like many others can cite equally negative commentaries written by Muslim scholars that are really frightening to read.

The latent contradiction between Islam as a barbaric ideology and peaceful Muslims living in the West like Eboo Patel has been a sore point. Sam Harris, also a panelist on the WP column, makes exactly this point between distinction between the two. It's like saying because I hate Maoist ideologies (and because Mao was a Chinese), so all Chinese people are worth my hate. Muslims see no distinction between hate for a religious theory, and hate for its followers. Of course, to me, this is a primitive mindset.

Your sources, and I have read similar ones by John L. Esposito, do not condemn in explicit terms the works of Syed Maulana Maudoodi (JIHAD IN ISLAM), Sayyid Qutb (MILESTONES) or the works of Jamal-ud-din Afghani, or Al-Shafi. These latter-day interpretators do seem to sell their thesis by remaining silent on their past predecessors on the same topic. Also, these "peaceful" nature of Islam can not be understood by the most violent acts that Prophet Mohammed committed in his efforts to spread Islam. (These are documented by Ibn Ishaq.)

Anyway, for every Khalid Abou El Fadl I can cide a Osama bin Laden. Both read the same Quran, but do interpret differently. If interpretation is what makes this so different, then the question arises that Allah's message in the Quran is not unique and is subject to changes with time and place. So, will the real Islam please stand up ?

Ah, well, that's more what I'm talking about, Victoria, though we crossed posts.

"Can you think of any other philosophy that commands combatants to stop fighting immediately if the enemy says the word peace?"

It's... actually not that uncommon in tribal warfare: (which was more often than not fairly ritualized, in some ways. Defeating enemies without killing them was seen as much more honorable, unlike perhaps more modern ideas of warfare.) Shades of it survived even into chivalry.

And the Geneva conventions, for that matter, as well as, I believe, the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

International legacies of colonialism and the Cold War and even the perception of 'Enemy,' that they produce, well, could bring one to tears, if you look too hard.

You think the animists in the Sudan could just say 'Peace?' Maybe we ought to drop leaflets on that. But I don't know. What I do know is that in America, things don't have to be like that. Not even with words. And then we wouldn't have been led into Bush's Iraq morass.

What if they had a culture war and nobody came?

Mr Ross there is a saying "you cannot reason with a twisted mind" I think you need serious blessings from the Lord. BTW what proof do you have that Jesus was the son of god, what proof do you have that Jesus ever exited. I dont think you have any, we all have belief thats all, you have yours and I have mine.

Ross wrote:
Why cant SATAN write this book? I think and belief is it is not you but satan is writing all the posting through you the only this i dont see is couple of horn a a tail.

Ross wrote:
Muslim and Islamic countries fear the media?
Islam teaches us not to judge relegion and say ill about any relegion but to respect them, 24 hours the media in the western (so called civilized world)world criticise and blaming ISLAM for for everything the way it is done, let me tell you if the muslim media start recipricting against the christians and start the same campaign against you, I bet you it will be hard/impossible for the western world to even go to the toilet, you would prefer peeing in your pant and let alone getting your wives pregnant.

who is ANONYMUS r u male/female/shemale? it doesnot hurt to use your name maybe you are not proud of your background/heritage.

Ross the wars you are talking about Islamic agressions and the war I am talking about is Christian agressions, what is the end result mass murders right. But Christians killed more
100 times more human beings that Muslims just get your calculators out.

What is this war in Iraq, isn't it Christian aggression, come on wake up if you cant then go to bed dont post again you are only spilling filth. If muslim kills a westerner it is big news and last for weeks in your media, but you guys kill innocent women and childrens you call it HONEST MISTAKE. I am wondering how come you wasted your whole life gathering filthand storing it in your mind.

and as for SLAMAN RUSDIE if you ever meet him ask him this question. HOW MANY SECURITY GUARDS GUARD HIS TOILET WHEN HE IS USING ONE, YOU WILL GET YOUR ANSWER.

Islam is a peaceful relegion if there is any fault it was created by INQUIRING MINDS like you.If you cannot do or talk good here then go and repent for all the ill you have created while you still have time, go join the PEACE CORP, it is a christian organisation, you will receive your salvation.

PEACE AND GOD BLESS.

AmericLans are not allowed to give money to islamic charities- we actuallt petitioned the government during ramadan and asked for an approved list of charities we could contribute to- and the answer was there are none-

lets get back to the subject-

In the Name of Allah the Merciful the Compassionate
Institute of Arabic and Islamic Studies
Islam Denounces Violence

The Prophet of Islam and the Jews: Basis of Conduct, Acceptance, Respect and Cooperation
By Faysal Burhan, Edited by Michael D. Berdine

Islam Denounce Violence -- Freedom of Belief, no Compulsion in Islam
Islam does not Command Muslims to Kill Westerner, Christians or Jews
The Constitution of Medina -- Other Historical Accounts

Introduction
America is the land of opportunity, where people of different ethnicity and nationality together share a common land. Muslims and Jews have a chance here for better understanding of one another and for participating in activities that would bring mutual benefits to both communities.
Unlike the popular, Islam is not a hostile religion. Acceptance, kindness, respect and cooperation are divine Islamic principles revealed to Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, (p) for conducting his affairs with the People of the Book (the Jews and Christians). These principles have led to the establishment of the constitution of the first pluralistic community known in history, in the City of Medina, in the Arabian Peninsula, in the year 622 CE. The Constitution of Medina is the first written civil and political law spelling out the freedom of worship, trade and speech, community defense against its enemy, promotion of justice and goodness, and the fighting of evil.
The city of Medina is where people of different faiths and nationalities, including Jews, Muslims, Ethiopians and Persians lived together in cooperation, peace and harmony.
This article addresses certain Jewish and Muslim historical events and Islamic principles relevant to the mutual benefits for both Jews and Muslims. Furthermore, the divine laws and the historical events are proofs that Muslim's relation with the People of the Book is based on acceptance, consideration and collaboration.
Although the subject of this book is about the Prophet of Islam and the Jews, Christians and other ethnic groups are treated in the same manner. A beautiful work made by Dr. William Baker, a Christian Scholar and archaeologist, in his latest book, More in Common than you Think, Bridge Between Islam and Christianity, I strongly recommend not only Christians to read, but every man and women of any faith.
Although, some hostilities and differences between the Muslims and the Jews occurred during and after the life of the Prophet (p), the causes were not that Islam changed its standards, but rather the breaking of covenants such as that of the tribe of Quraythah with the Prophet, as we will see later under the title: "Harmony is the Goal of Every Muslim." Recreantly, hostility between the Jews and Muslims is about the conflict in Palestine. As President William Clinton, Palestinian Authority Leader Yassir Arafat and Benjamin Netanyahu and others, are moving toward peace in the region, we hope that justice and peace will return to that part of the world.
Next is a focus on some of the universal Islamic principles relevant to the topic and which include Christians and others.

Conviction not Compulsion
Compulsion in religion is incompatible with the spirit of faith. This is certainly true in the Islamic Faith. Religious belief must depend on people's free-will and choice. Islam establishes that people's belief must come by conviction. A believer is one who willingly, through the signs of God in the universe and in himself, and through inner-self satisfaction, accepts the faith of Islam. The Holy Qur'an is plentiful of verses and examples on this subject. Since belief by conviction is not our topic here we will not discuss any of these relevant verses. Confirming the "no compulsion-in-religion" Islamic principle, however, the following Qur'anic quotations are considered:

"If it had been the Lord's Will, they would all have believed- all who are on earth: will you then (Muhammad) compel mankind, against their will, to believe?" Qur'an, 10: 99.

Another Qur'anic verse states:

"Let there be no compulsion in religion, truth stands out clear from error." Qur'an, 2: 256.

The two verses above basically establish the no-force, or pressure to be used or applied to force people, including Christians and Jews to be Muslims. This principle is clearly reflected in the life and practice of the Prophet Muhammad, and is reflected in the Constitution of Medina which guarantees the freedom of worship for all.

Qur'an Teaches Peaceful Dialogue
A Muslim is encouraged to carry out an intellectual dialogue with the People of the Book to establish and improve relations. Following are two examples:

"Say O people of the Book! Come to common terms as between us and you that we worship none but God; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, lords and patrons other than God. If then they turn back, say: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to God's Will)." Qur'an, 3:64.

"Say: We believe in God, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the Prophets from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another." Qur'an, 3:84.

After all, it is an integral part of Muslim's faith to honor Prophets Abraham, Moses, Jesus and all other prophets of God, and follow their teachings.

Acceptance and Understanding
Islam teaches the Muslim to be kind, tolerant and understanding, and to establish fraternity among all people. The Qur'an tells us that God has made people into nations and tribes in order to know and deal with each other in kindness, and that the best of us is he who is more pious than others.

"O humankind! We created you from a single pair of a male and female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know and deal with each other in kindness (not that you may despise each other). Verily the most honored of you in the sight of God (is he who is) the most righteous of you, and God is Knower, Aware." Qur'an, 49:13.

Thus, Islam bases people's relational conduct on kindness. Hence, it condemns intolerance, prejudice and bigotry, and rejects discrimination based on color, creed, national origin or religion.

The Muslim acceptance applies to all elements of life and must reflect in all of the Muslim's affairs. The teaching of Islam towards proper behavior, anger control, patience, treatment of spouse, parent, neighbor, the young and the old, the friend, the enemy, the environment and specifically the People of the Book are evident in the Holy Qur'an and the life and example of the Prophet Muhammad (p).
In calling people to the Islamic Faith, for example, a Muslim must be wise, sensitive, humble and considerate. The Qur'an teaches:

"Invite (all) to the way of your Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and discuss with them in ways that are best and most gracious." Qur'an, 16:25.

The Muslim's acceptance of the Jews and Christians, is even more intense and specifically addresses the Muslims to prevent any communication or approach that would lead to dispute, anger or negative implication between the two parties. Allah instructs the Muslims:

"And dispute not with People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong and injury." Qur'an, 29:46.

The Prophet (p) also said:

"Let it be known, if any one (Muslim) commits injustice, insults, aggravates, mistreats or abuses a person of the People of the Book (protected, by the state or an agreement), he will have to answer me (for his immoral action) on the Day of Judgment." Izzeddin Blaque, Minhaj Alsaliheen, Page 106.

Thus, the lack of tolerance towards the non-Muslims under Islamic rule is a grave offense.

Does Islam Approve Terrorism?
Absolutely not. The human sole is sacred and highly protected in Islam. As discussed earlier God created people and made them nations and tribes to deal with each other in kindness and that God's criterion of differentiation among people is piety. Islam does not tolerate bloodshed, prejudice or discriminatory actions. God tells us in the Holy Qur'an:

"If any one kill a person, it would be as if he kill the whole people, and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the whole people." Qur'an, 5:32.

What could be stronger condemnation for assassination of an individual than equating it with slaying all of human kind, and a greater reward for saving a life than equating it with saving the lives of all people? The indiscriminate killing of people is prohibited in the Islamic Faith irrespective of the mechanism used for killing. The Prophet Muhammad is reported to have said:

"Whoever fights under an erratic irrational banner, buffs up angry for a particular (irrational) group or promotes (irrational) group, or supports (irrational) group and died in that cause, he died as a disbeliever, and whoever indiscriminately attacks my people killing the righteous and the wicked of them, sparing not (even) those with whom is a covenant (such as Jews and Christians "People of Book" and other ), and not fulfilling the promises made with those who have been given a pledge of a security--he belongs not to me and I belong not to him." Muslim, Tradition # 3436.

As an extension of saving the human soul from accidental death, and to promote a healthy community, this verse lays out the rule of safety in all domains of life. Islam promotes safety regulations in traffic and public places, calls for providing safety measures for children such as providing medicine in child-proof-bottles, institutes safety measures in all industrial, agricultural and commercial initiatives as well as in public and private undertaking, such as streets, housings, and dams. Indirectly, this safety rule protects the ecological system and promotes cleaner and healthier environment for all the creations of God.

Does the Islamic Faith order Muslims to kill Westerners or Christians and Jews?
Absolutely not, this is a myth. Islam does not in any way approve of the killing of innocent people, weather they are Christians, Jews or of any faith or philosophy. Prophet Muhammad said:

"Whoever kills a person of the People of Covenant (such as Jews, and Christian or people of others creeds or philosophy) with whom there is a covenant between them and Muslims, he or she will not enter Paradise." Bukhari, Tradition # 2930.

This myth about Muslims entering Paradise by killing Christians or Jews or Westerners, may have been a misinterpretation of the saying of Prophet Muhammad "All those who die today will enter Paradise," during the Battle of Badr. Let me shed some lights surrounding this matter.
The Battle of Badr was the first battle to take place between the Muslims and the Pagans. The battle took place in the first year after the Prophet migrated to Medina, 623 AD, escaping the torture and execution of Muslims by the Pagan Quraysh tribes. In Medina, the Prophet joined his followers, who were similarly driven out of Mecca leaving behind their families, homes, and belongings, much of which was confiscated by Quraysh. The Muslims learned about a caravan of goods belonging to Quraysh coming from Syria into Mecca. The Prophet and his companions decided to intercept the caravan and disallow it to reach Quraysh. The Prophet and three hundred of his people left the city to intercept the caravan. The Prophet had no intention to enter into a battle of any kind. The Meccans learned about the Muslim's intention of intercepting the caravan, summoned themselves and made an army of one thousand people to go and save the caravan from the Muslims. Meanwhile, the leader of the caravan, Abu Sufian learned of the Muslim's move, therefore changed the route of the caravan and escaped the Muslims into Mecca safely. Quraysh with its might force of one thousand men and women refused to return to Mecca before they fight the Muslims and parish them.

It was here, where Muslims were few and were not equipped to go into war, the Prophet said: "All those who die today will enter Paradise." Although, the saying can take several different interpretations, but none of them can be interpreted as saying, "if you kill a Christian or a Jew or a Westerner you will enter Paradise."
First, the Prophet was facing the Pagans of Mecca, not Christians or Jews or Westerners. Second, the Prophet's word "today" limits the act of entering Paradise by dyeing to those who would die that day only. Thirdly, the words of the Prophet are in defense, not for attack. The Prophet said: "All those who die (in self defense) will enter Paradise." He did not say , 'all those who kill will enter Paradise'. This is in line with the philosophy of Islam regarding prevention of bloodshed and war.
How can this quotation of the Prophet be twisted to mean the killing of Westerners? On the contrary, the Muslims and the Jews joined each other few months earlier and formed an alliance to defend the city of Medina against the Pagans. Furthermore, prior to this, Prophet Muhammad had sent his followers to Abyssinia, escaping Quraysh's execution and to be protected by its Christian King, Negus. Nine years before this Battle and for many more years to come, the Muslims and Christians were allied. This was and still is the policy of Islam regarding the People of the Book, Christians and Jews.
Second, the Islamic philosophy of martyrdom entering paradise is no different than the concept of martyrdom in Christianity. This philosophy too cannot be interpreted as a permission to kill Christians, Jews, Westerners or any human being.

The Constitution of Medina
The Constitution of Medina is a magnificent historical document, authored and dictated by Prophet Muhammad (p) as the law of a land inhabited by different ethnic groups and nationalities. This document constituted the law to ever govern unified Jews and Muslims in a single state. This historical manifestation established, political rights, citizen obligations, freedom of belief, freedom of speech and trade, the sanctity of life, the prohibition of bloodshed and crime, and the laws of municipalities and justice. The document also secured and promoted cooperation and fraternity among all people of any creed, color, ethnicity, and lineage, and sets out the criterion of righteousness as the base of distinction.

In the year 622 CE, Prophet Muhammad (p) migrated from Mecca to Medina ending a 13 years of strive calling the people of Quraysh (a large governing tribe in Mecca) to Islam, and escaping their latest plot to assassinate him. Here in the city of Medina, where he had already made many supporters some of whom had migrated earlier from Mecca (the Emigrants) and others who received Islam and accepted it in Medina (the Helpers).
The city of Medina and its surrounding area was home to many Jewish and Arabian tribes. Resident in the city were also people of different national origins including Romans, Persians and Ethiopians. This community of multi-religious beliefs and nationalities was subjected to a new pluralistic law.
During his first year in Medina, Prophet Muhammad (p) laid out the principles of a pluralistic constitution that ruled the city of Medina for the next decade and later extended to Arabia and the Islamic Empire. The new constitution established the unity and brotherhood between the Emigrants and the Helpers, instituted the rights and equality of every citizen before the law, and freedom of religion, trade and speech. The constitution also spelled out the political rights and duties of both the Jews and Muslims to protect each other and their city from their enemies and to uphold justice and promote ethical conduct.

Note: Similar to local city and county governments in the west today, the pre Islamic tribal structure was that each tribe constituted a local autonomy. Each tribe had a leader that kept agreements with other tribes, set and enforced the law in its territory. Note also that all the parties to this document endorsed it, including the eleven Jewish tribes that were resident in the area. The text of this translation is copied as a hole from the book, Sunshine at Madinah, published by Islamic Publication International. Also see Minhaj Alsaliheen, Page 777, and Albidayah wa Alnihayah, Volume 3, Page 177.
The following is an English translation of the Constitution of Medina, as recorded by Ibn Hisham. No attempt is made to follow literally the lay-out of the original. On the contrary, we have, in places, deliberately departed from the original paragraphing, and added numeral prefixes to the main paragraphs of the translation, for the purposes of easy reference and understanding:

"The Messenger of God wrote document (Stipulating the relationship) between Immigrants and Helpers, in which he made peace with the Jews and pledged himself to them that they will be established in security regarding their religion, wealth and property. He pledged to honor certain rights for them and demanded that they fulfill certain obligations." The Constitution of Medina reads:

1. In the name of Allah the Compassionate the Most Merciful. This is a document dictated by Muhammad the Prophet (p) (governing the relations) between the believers and Muslims from Quraysh and Yathrib (Medina), and those who followed and joined them and strove with them. They are one nation, distinct from all nations. The Immigrants from Quraysh, according to their established customs are bound together and shall ransom their prisoners in the kindness and justice common among believers.
2. The Banu 'Awf (a Jewish tribe), according to their established customs, are bound together as before, each group shall ransom their prisoners in the kindness and justice common among believers. The Banu Sa'idah, the Banu al-Harith, The Banu Jushm and the Banu an-Najjar (Jewish tribes) are likewise.
3. The Banu 'Amr ibn 'Awf, the Banu an-Nabeet, and the Banu al-Aws (Jewish tribes) likewise.
4. Believers shall not leave anyone among them in destitution by failing to give for him redemption money or blood-wit in kindness.
5. A believer shall not take as an ally a freed man of another believer against him.
6. The God-fearing believers shall be against who ever rebels or him who seeks to spread injustice, or sin or aggression or spread enmity between believers; the hands of everyone of them shall be together against him, even if he be a son of one of them.
7. A believer shall not slay a believer for the sake of an unbeliever nor shall he aid an unbeliever against a believer.
8. The bond of God is one, the least of them (believers) may give protection (to a stranger) on behalf of them. Believers are protectors one of another, to the exclusion of outsiders.
9. The Jew who follows us is surely entitled to our support and the same equal rights as any one of us. He shall not be wronged nor his enemy be assisted.
10. The peace of believers is one and indivisible; no believer shall make a separate peace without other believers, when they are engaged in war in the way of God, except when conditions are deemed fair and equitable to all.
11. In every foray, a rider must take another behind him. The believers must avenge the blood of one another, if anyone of them fails fighting in the cause of God. The God-fearing believers follow the best and most upright guidance.
12. No polytheist shall take the property or person of Quraysh under his protection nor shall he intervene on their behalf against a believer.
13. Whoever is convicted of deliberately killing a believer without legitimate cause, shall be liable to retaliation, unless the next of kin is satisfied (with blood money). The believers shall all be against him, and they are bound to keep him under their custody (until either the next of kin is satisfied or retaliation takes place).
14. It shall not be lawful to a believer who has accepted this document as binding, and who believes in God and the last day, to help an evil-doer or to shelter him. The curse of God and His anger on the Day of Resurrection will be upon him if he does, and neither repentance nor ransom will be received from him.
15. Whenever you have a disagreement amongst you, it must be referred to God and Muhammad.
16. The Jews shall contribute to the cost of war, so long as they are fighting alongside the believers.
17. The Jews of Banu 'Awf are one nation with the Muslims; the Jews have their religion and the Muslims have theirs, their freedmen and their persons shall be protected except those who behave unjustly or sinfully, for they hurt but themselves and their families. The same applies to the Jews of Banu an-Najjar, Banu al-Harith, Banu Sa'idah, Banu Jusham, Banu al-Aws, Banu Tha'labah, and the Jafnah, clan of the Tha'labah and Banu al-Shua'ibah. Doing good deeds is a protection against sinfulness. The freedmen of Tha'labah are as themselves. The close friends of the Jews are as themselves.
18. None of them shall go out to war, save with the permission of Muhammad. But none shall be prevented from taking revenge for a wound inflicted upon him. Whoever kills a man, kills himself and his household, unless it be one who has wronged him, for God would accept that.
19. The Jews must bear their expenses and the Muslims bear theirs. Each must help the other against anyone who attacks the people of this document. Their condition must be one of mutual advice, consultation and charity rather than harm and aggression.
20. No man is liable for a crime committed by his ally. Support must be given to him who is wronged. The Jews must spend of their wealth, along with the believers, so long as fighting continues.
21. Yathrib (Medina) shall be a sanctuary for the people of this document. A stranger under protection shall be as his protecting host, unharmed and committing no crime. A woman shall not be given protection without the consent of her family.
22. If any dispute likely to cause trouble should arise among the people of this document, it must be referred to God, and to Muhammad.
23. God approves and is pleased with the piety and goodness in this document.
24. Quraysh and their helpers shall not be given protection.
25. The people of this document are bound to help one another against any attack on Yathrib. If they are called to make peace and maintain it, they must do so; and if they make a similar demand on the Muslims, it must be carried out except with one who insists on fighting against their religion.
26. To every small group belongs the share which is their due as members of the larger group which is party to this covenant. The Jews of the Aws and their clients, are entitled to the same rights as any other party to this document, together with the goodness and charity from all parties to it. Charity and good deeds exclude sinfulness and wrongdoing.
27. There is no responsibility except for one's own deeds.
28. God approves of such truth and goodness as is included in this document.
29. This document shall not constitute any protection for the unjust or the wrongdoers.
30. Whoever goes out to fight or stays at home is safe in the city, unless he has committed an injustice or a crime. God is the protector of whoever honors his commitment to this document, and is God-fearing and so is Muhammad, the Messenger of God.

Other Historical Accounts
Looking into the early Islamic and later history, one runs across many examples of Islamic and Jewish acceptance and collaboration. Following are some of these examples.

A - The Prophet (p) Stands up in Respect for a Jew's Funeral
Historians (see Sahih Bukhari, Tradition Number 1311) report that as a funeral of a Jew passed before Prophet Muhammad (p), as a sign of respect he stood up. In doing this, he showed respect and shared in the feeling of sorrow with Jewish family and community. "Why did you stand up for a Jewish funeral?" he was asked. The Prophet replied: "Is it not a human soul?"

B - The Prophet (p) Visits his Jewish Sick Neighbor
Upon learning of the sickness of his Jewish neighbor, Prophet Muhammad (p) paid him a visit. During the visit the Prophet asked the young man to accept Islam. The young man looked at his father for a permission. The father assented and the young man accepted Islam. (see Sahih Bukhari, Tradition Number 1356).

C - The Prophet's (p) Marriage to a Jewish Lady
Getting closer to others, and making your enemy your friend is the way of Prophet Muhammad (p). To accomplish this, Prophet Muhammad (p) utilized the traditional Arabian way of making alliance through marriage. Any time a person marries from a clan outside of his own, he becomes honored by every member of the clan, and protected by the entire tribe of the bride. To show his nearness and trustworthiness to the Jews, he married one of their own. Her name was Sufiah Bint Alnudair, the daughter of the leader of the Nudair tribe.

D - Harmony is a Goal for Every Muslim
In the year 627 CE, Quraysh of Mecca marched with thousands of men and women of Quraysh along with many other Arabian tribes to attack the Prophet Muhammad in Medina and wipe out the Muslims for good. As you have seen earlier, the Muslims and the Jewish tribes had agreed to protect their city against Quraysh.

Learning about Quraysh preparation to attack their city, the Muslims decided to dig a trench around the city to slow and confuse the enemy. After Quraysh and its allies arrived and camped outside Medina, they sent one of their tribal leaders, Huyay bin Akhtab Alnudairy to the Jewish tribe of Qurathah to entice them to break their agreement with the Muhammad and to join them in attacking the Muslims. Knowing Quraysh's intention, the Jewish tribe of Quraythah closed their castle gates and did not allow Huyay to enter the castle. Calling the tribe leader, Ka'ab bin Asad from outside the walls of the castle and insisting to speak to him proved to be another failure. Determined to speak to Ka'ab over the next several days, Huyay was finally permitted to enter into the castle. The tribe leader Ka'ib, however, told him" You are a cursed man, and I have an agreement with Muhammad that I am not breaking. I have not seen of him any thing other than trustworthiness and fulfillment of promise". Upon this Huyay had left disappointed.
It was reported , however that Huyay was not contended by this, but insisted on returning to Ka'ab with lucrative proposals and protection from Quraysh against Muhammad, until he changed his mind. See Ibn Katheer, Albidayah Wa Alnihayah, Volum 4, page 84.
Although it is unfortunate that Ka'ab broke the truce with Prophet Muhammad (p), this example is a proof of the extent of cooperation and good relation that took place between the Muslims and the Jews during this early period. Furthermore, this example is representative of the good relation, not hostility that both the Jews and Muslims experienced during this period of the rise of Islam.

E - Natural Feeling of a Jew Towards the Prophecy of Muhammad (p)
For several days, at the outskirts of Medina, awaiting eagerly the arrival of Prophet Muhammad (p) and his companion from Mecca, was a small group of Muslims. Also near by was a Jew, Abdullah Bin Salaam, picking dates off a palm tree with his aunt on the ground assisting him. Abdullah was in a better position to spot the incoming from a far distance. Therefore, he was the first to see the Prophet and his companion coming. Upon this, he became overwhelmed with excitement, calling loudly, "Muhammad has arrived, God is great!" Upon this, his aunt told him to quiet down saying, "If he was Moses son of Imran, you would not have shouted as loud." Abdullah responded, "Oh my aunt by Allah, he is (only) the brother of Moses, son of Imran and is on his faith." She asked, "Is he the expected Prophet we have been told about (in the Torah)?" He said, "Yes."
This historical event is only a natural reflection of what is in the inner-hearts of many of the true believers in God. Abdullah and other Jewish leaders and individuals accepted Islam along with many Arabian tribes resident in the city of Medina. -(see A. Alhalabi, Alsirah Alhalabiyah, Volum 2, page 121).

F - Protectors of the Jews
Jewish communities in Anatolia flourished and continued to prosper throughout the Ottomans anconquest. When the Ottomans captured Busra in 1324 and made it their capital, they found a Jewish community oppressed under Byzantine rule. The Jews welcomed the ottomans as saviors. Sultan Orhan gave them permission to build the Etz ha-Hayyim (Tree of Life) synagogue which remained in service until 50 years ago.
Early in the 14th century, when the Ottomans had established their capital at Edirne, Jews from Europe, including Karaites, migrated there.-(Mark Allen Epstein, The Ottoman Jewish Communities and their Role in the 15th and 16th Centuries.) Similarly, Jews expelled from Hungary in 1376, from France by Charles VI in September 1394, and from Sicily early in the 15th century found refuge in the Ottoman Empire. In the 1420s, Jews from Salonika then under Venetian control fled to Edirne. -(Josef Nehama, Histoire des Israeliies de Salonique.)
Ottoman rule was much kinder than Byzantine rule had been. In fact, from the early 15th century on, the Ottomans actively encouraged Jewish immigration. A letter sent by Rabbi Yitzhak Safati (from Edirne) to Jewish communities in Europe in the first part of the century "invited his coreligionists to leave the torments they were enduring in Christendom and to seek safety and prosperity in Turkey." -(Bernard Lewis, The Jews of Islam.)
When Mehmet II "the Conqueror" took Constantinople in 1453, he encountered an oppressed Romaniot (Byzantine) Jewish community which welcomed him with enthusiasm. Sultan Mehmet II issued a proclamation to all Jews " to ascend the site of the Imperial Throne, to dwell in the best of the land, each beneath his Dine and his fig tree, with silver and with gold, with wealth and with cattle…." -( Encyclopedia Judaica, Volume 16 page1532.) In 1470, Jews expelled from Bavaria by Ludvig X found refuge in the Ottoman Empire. -(Avram Galante, Histiore des Juifs d'Istanbul, Volume 2.)
On the midnight of August 2nd 1492, when Columbus embarked on what would become his most famous expedition to the New World, his fleet departed from the relatively unknown seaport of Palos because the shipping lanes of Cadiz and Seville were clogged with Sephardic Jews expelled from Spain by the Edict of Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand of Spain.

Sultan Bayazid II's offer of refuge gave new hope to the persecuted Sephardim. In 1492, the Sultan ordered the governors of the provinces of the Ottoman Empire "not to refuse the Jews entry or cause them difficulties, but to receive them cordially." -(Abraham Danon, in the Review Yossef Daath No.4.) According to Bernard Lewis, "the Jews were not just permitted to settle in the Ottoman lands, but were encouraged, assisted and sometimes even compelled."

Immanual Abobab attributes to Bayazid II the famous remark that "the Catholic monarch Ferdinand was wrongly considered as wise, since he impoverished Spain by the expulsion of the Jews, and enriched Turkey." -(Immanual Abobab, A Consolacam as Tribulacoes de Israel, III Israel.)
Over the centuries an increasing number of European Jews, escaping persecution in their native countries, settled in the Ottoman Empire. In 1537 the Jews expelled from Apulia (Italy) after the city fell under Papal control and, in 1542 those expelled from Bohemia by King Ferdinand found a safe haven in the Ottoman Empire. -(H. Graetz, History of the Jews.) In March of 1556, Sultan Sulayman "the Magnificent" wrote a letter to Pope Paul IV asking for immediate release of the Acona Marranos, whom he declared to be Ottoman citizens. The Pope had no alternative but to release them, the Ottoman Empire being the "Superpower" of that time.

In his book, More in Common than you Think, Bridge Between Islam and Christianity, Dr. William Baker elaborates about the fact that Muslims view the Torah and the New Testament as inspired revelations of God and that Islam neither targeted the Jews nor Judaism. He said, "It is a fact of history that when the Jews were being persecuted in Europe during the middle ages they found peace, harmony, and acceptance among the Muslim people of Spain. In fact, this was the era of Jewish history that they themselves refer to as "the golden age." In the famous treaties by Rabbi Minken, he says of this era:

"It was Muslim Spain, the only land the Jew knew in nearly a thousand years of the dispersion, which made the genius of physician Moses Maimonides possible."

G - Rabbi Speaking at the First International Islamic Unity Conference
Perhaps, even in the 20th century, where there has been a lot of hostilities between the Muslims and Jews over Palestine, there are many Jewish people who call for fraternity and "unity with diversity". It was Rabbi Allen Bennett of San Francisco, in the interfaith session, at the Islamic Unity Conference, held in Los Angeles California, August 1996, who admittedly thought that he had received the wrong call to speak at an Islamic conference. Yet at the Conference, Rabbi Bennett expressed his enjoyment and unique experience with the Muslims' hospitalities and manners. After he spoke about some Muslim and Jewish similarities, and the possibility of Muslim/Jewish peaceful coexistence, Rabbi Bennett further said:

"The Jews in this country, who are such a small minority, have a tremendous obligation to make the Muslims feel welcome. It is a joy for me to go home not with a renewed respect, but with increased respect, not with new hope but with more hope, and I have a big job to do; I have to become a marketing agent for Islam."

It is only here in America do we have this opportunity to hear people share their thoughts and hopes, and to bring the religious communities closer together.

Final Remarks
In conclusion, The Muslims and Jews co-existed in harmony during the rise of Islam and beyond. Islam is a friendly religion to all "It was Muslim Spain, the only land the Jew knew in nearly a thousand years of the dispersion, which made the genius of physician Moses Maimonides possible". Acceptance and virtue are indivisible parts of the Muslim's faith. "The Jews of Banu 'Awf are one nation with the Muslims; the Jews have their religion and the Muslims have theirs". These principles and historical events should draw the pace for better relations and more peaceful future for both Jewish and Muslim Communities.

EBOO said in his article:

In what world is it appropriate to insult the founder of a religion in a public forum?
------------------------------------------------

I would say in a free and rational world it would appropiate to insult Muhammad or Jesus, or anybody. Why should they be out of bounds (except for your irrationality).

In a rational world, religous Prophets would be percieved as what they really were: semi-schizophrenic men who thought God was talking to them.

I will ridicule your Prophet (or any prophet) until the day I die.

Cheers,

-Kenneth

It is common knowledge that most prejudice is based on fear. Whether the bigot (yes, a strong word, but one that means someone who is intolerant of others because of their differences) realizes it or not, they have a fear of their world changing because of the acceptance of the "others". People are afraid of what will happen to their towns, government, schools, and churches; and a way to keep all of these things safe is to keep the "others" away, or limited in power.

Right now, there are a lot of people who are afraid of Muslims because, unfortunately, our world view of Muslims running a country is shaped by the madmen of terrorism fighting for world domination. So we might meet lots of individual Muslims who are very nice and speak of peace and living in harmony; but the visions we see daily of Muslims in power are very different, and it scares people. This fear then breeds contempt, as people start to feel their world changing or threatening to change.

So, I think the question is, how do you get people to overcome these fears? Not an easy task...

Hi again, Vic. (and a wave to the estimable Mr. Patel. :) )

At risk of veering too far from topic, it might be helpful in interfaith communication to understand the importance of actually having some idea how it'll be seen by those you're taking to: I hear plenty from both Christians and Muslims along the lines of this:

" paganplace is expected to respect the message of her beliefs- (sorry if youre not female paganplace- its your gentleness) if the laws of her universe are abused- there are repurcussions-

in hinduism if the laws of karma are not respected- there is punishment- a regression in the wheel of rebirth-

etc...etc..."

(you got the gender right, btw. :) )

"if you have a problem with the laws of retribution and accountability for actions in this world- you can complain to god in your next conversation with her."

Certainly, in Wicca, as well as many other, well, rebirth-oriented traditions, 'karma' is *not* seen as something a God of Judgement sits there and doles out 'retribution' for in another life: frankly, it's seen as primarily very observable cause and effect in our own present lives, and of course applicable in one way or another to the next. If you, say, go to war, a God saying, 'Oh, but this one was OK,' doesn't mean you don't have to live with the effects of what you've done.

In your life, in your world, in your soul. Threefold return.

Now, while it may be considered *possible* to cheese off or particularly please the Gods, the prime moral and ethical focus is really *cause and effect.* We don't tend to believe that 'the end justifies the means.' The means, if you will, *are* the end. Our world is not ruled by a single jealous God more concerned with fealty than anything else. Awareness of and accountability for the effects of our actions is seen as the way to a better life... as good for ya. :)

So, if you say, 'Surely you share the concept of divine retribution' ...sorry, not really.

I bet in terms of speaking with Christians, this kind of dialogue can be made even *harder* by the *general similarities* in your worldviews and language.

You've got to be careful in your assumptions.

What I see all too much, is these big religions mostly talking *past* each other, when they talk at all. Because of assumptions, old injustices, old conflicts, and old misperceptions.

We have a saying, in the Pagan community: 'Start where you are.' :)

Mr. Patel:

Your esay on American discrimination against Muslims moved me: Obviously, no one deserves to be the target of prejudice, especially not an innocent child. Like so many modern Muslim writers, however, you ingenuously skirt some of the root causes that contribute to many Americans' negative view of Islam.

First, let's consider the hypocrisy. Islam is virulently intolerant of other faiths, and always has been. The Qu'ran itself viciously attacks Judaism and Christianity, in several suras. Moreover, according to hadith, your Prophet ordered the destruction of an entire tribe of Jewish Arabs who had opposed him. The oppression of the dhimmi in the Muslim world throughout the centuries is well-documented. In modern times, Muslims around the globe freely denigrate Christianity, Judaism, and Buddhism. Yet when non-Muslims level even the mildest, most justifiable criticism against Islam, the entire Muslim community cries foul and yelps for blood. These are not isolated incidents. Nor are they the actions of "radical Islam" - in truth, there is no such animal. There is only, ruthless, intolerant traditional Islam, and the minority view of moderate Muslims hoping to reform that brutal creed.

By the way, how can you justify the demand for tolerance of Muslims in western societies, when no Muslim society anywhere protects the basic human rights of its non-Muslim citizens? Atacks on members of other faiths are common in the Muslim world, as are forcible conversions. And the fate of Muslims who choose to convert to other religions is often death. The perpetrators of these criminal acts are rarely punished. Often, they are lauded. This is true even the supposedly secular nation of Turkey.

You ask how anyone can insult the founder of a world religion. Did it ever occur to you that the Muslim insistence that Christ was not the Messiah, but is rather a prophet of Islam, is considered an unspeakable insult by the world's two billion Christians? (By the way, the denial of the Holocaust is a grave insult to Judaism, although it does not attack its founder.) Also, I submit that for a religious figure to obtain respect, he must behave in an admirable fashion. Muhammad was absolutely ruthless to his enemies, as stated before. He advocated the anihilation of all who would not submit to Islam, as well as the execution of apostates. He even asked his followers to assassinate two Arab poets who had insulted him in verse; one of these was a mother with a nursing baby. Moreover, Muhammad treated women like chattel rather than human beings. By Aisha's own account, he consummated his marriage to her when she was only nine years old and still playing with swings and dolls. The Prophet broke truces with his enemies and lied to his wives about his sexual encounters with Maria the Copt. The list of his transgressions against all that most modern persons common decency would fill pages. Nor can you hide behind the convenient fiction that these were actually enlightened practices for the seventh century. A religion that claims to be true for all times should not advocate practices that violate the most fundamental tenets of universal human rights and ethical behavior.

Even given the above, Mr. Patel, it is hardly fair to blame your unborn son for these barbarisms, or the seven-year-old on the playground. It may not be all that fair to target you, either. If you truly abhor the persecution and oppression of non-Muslims in Muslim society; if you reject the violent injunctions of the Qu'ran and hadith and deplore the modern acts of terrorism in the name of Islam; if you reject the Prophet's example of polygamy, concubinage, child marriage, and the general denigration of women; if you have never engaged in the Christian-bashing and Jew-bashing prevalent among your co-religionists; if you have never contributed funds to Muslim organizations that support militant madrassahs or other violent purposes; if you TRULY believe in American democratic values and universal human rights - then you deserve nothing but sympathy. You and Muslims like you are paying for the sins of your fathers and brothers. This is tragic, but in light of the facts, it is hardly surprising. You have my best wishes and my sympathy, Mr. Patel. Moderate, educated Muslims around the globe have been saddled with the unenviable task of proving that their religion, despite all evidence to the contrary, is compatible with (and capable of contributing to) modern democratic society. Good luck. Only great effort on your part will overcome the dismal stereotype that Islam has earned for itself in the non-Muslim world.

Concept of Peace in Islam

"But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace" (The Quran 8:61)
The Word "Islam"

The "root" of the word "Islam" in Arabic is SALAMA which is the origin of the words Peace & / or Submission, a submission to God and peace to all humanity. It is, thus, no wonder why the salutation in Islam is: "Al-Salamu Alaikum or Peace on You."

In this regard, prophet Mohammad ordered his fellow Muslims to salute others Muslims or non-Muslims with peace when he said: "Peace Before Speech"

It is a Rule in Islam that during war time, an enemy warrior who pronounces the word peace is totally immune.
No Coercion In Islam

Unlike many other religions where people were offered either conversion and peace or death, Islam came with the just word of our creator. In Quran 2:256; God said "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error..." There are many other verses in the Quran that deals with the nature of spreading God's message. One of my favorites which I keep quoting is Verse 10:99 "If it had been thy Lord's Will, they would all have believed, all who are on earth! Wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe!" These verses and many others show how much emphasis Islam places on the mind of people, Muslims or non-Muslims.
Justice & Fairness to Non-Muslims

In This regard, Muslims are governed by the rules that the relationship with non-Muslims should be based on justice, mutual respect, cooperation, and communication. The Quran is very explicit about the justice part of the relationship when God stated in Verse 60:08 "Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just."
The Ultimate Justice

Another prominent example that I keep referring to concerning the just treatment of Islam to non-Muslims; is the fact that while a husband is allowed to ask his Muslim wife not to go to the Mosque; he has no right to ask his wife to go to Church or Synagogue if it happens that the wife is a Christian or a Jew.
Peace and Jihad

The root of the word Jihad is Jahada which means "spent the energy". The following need some clarification concerning the concept of Jihad in Islam:

* The acts of Jihad are limitless in Islam. Work, going to school, even having sex with your spouse is classified as an act of Jihad in Islam that one will be rewarded for doing them.
* The highest stage of Jihad is fighting the enemy of Muslims and Islam.
* Defending your family, money, land, country...etc. by all means including the armed means are also considered Jihad

Misrepresentation of Anti-Islam

Anti-Muslims resort to a deceitful misrepresentation when they misquote the Quranic verses of the second chapter. They claim that Quran promoted killing the infidels wherever you find them. Indeed, this is true but only if the infidels attack Muslims. Here are the verses complete:

Quran 2:190-193.

* Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.
* And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.
* But if they cease, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
* And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression.

Contemporary Counterpart of Jihad

The United Nation's Charter does explicitly discuss the right of the occupied people to resist their occupiers. The legitimacy of fighting aggression by means of Jihad or armed struggle is extended not only from the Islamic teachings but also from the international law and UN Charter.
Morality & Ethics of Jihad

The legitimacy of annihilating the oppressive forces and military occupation is not limited to Islam or international law and UN Charter. In fact, it is very much morally and ethically unacceptable to people with minimum level of dignity and self respect to accept the life of slaves under the military machine rule of alien invaders. Who amongst the reader is willing to live in political and ideological slavery? Who is willing to give up his home for a Russian, an African, an American, or a Chinese? Who is willing to accept what courses are enforced on you in your school? And finally; who is willing to live under the Civil Detention Law; that Hitler used to massacre Jews; and, ironically, Jews are using the same law to massacre, deport, jail, and displace more than 5 million Palestinians? If you are willing; I, and many others are not. And this is just a tiny part of the ethics behind being enslaved to aliens.

Hate Hurts. Love Cures. Conjecture Fails. Truth Prevails.

Can you think of any other philosophy that commands combatants to stop fighting immediately if the enemy says the word peace?

HALO-
i guess the reference to stranger in a strange land was missed-
if youd read the book youd know that valentine, when he would meet people, as a greeting and union with them would share water and they would be his water brothers or sisters after that-

actually on mars his religion commanded that the dead be eaten by their relatives in order to absorb their souls and stength (sort of a combination of cannabilism getting the strength of the enemy by eating them and christianity eating the body and drinking the blood of christ) so the water ritual was a civilized version of blood brothers- at least thats what i always thought heinlein was going for-

valentine never referred to islam- but the concept of polygyny AND polygamy was injected into the philosophy- (but heinlein was a free love kind of guy- we must remember he spent his whole career in a wheelchair)
it was the violence of the world that ended up depressing valentine so much that he chose to slowly fade away-

it was a METAPHOR for water- not a great one even-

PAGANPLACE- youve never seen me accuse any other religion of anything- the only thing youve ever seen me critique is zionism- which isnot a religion but a secualar political movement-

and youve seen me renounce violence- (i realize that you cant possibly be aware of everything ive stated here)

as for any muslims youve talked to-
" 'You might understand why I find a lot of this stuff in the book that's supposed to be perfect kind of *alarming?*' The usual reaction is, "Oh,no, no, this is peace. And we're right, and we'll take over the world eventually."

i will state with complete assurance that you were talking to a moron-
1) if we were having a cappucino and you said this to me- id have an answer for you that you could understand and leave edified and clarified with-
a siple declaration of denial is worse than saying i dont know- look how its misled you-

what kind of idiot would try to allay anyones fears by saying 'well take over the world eventually'?

now youve never heard me use that kind of nonsensicaal pointing of fingers at others to deflect criticism of my own religion-

what does the history of christianity have to do with my religion?

the bible says- if the whole world is liars i will still tell the truth-

i am in complete accord with that-

ill tell you again- there is no compulsion in religion-

it is not debatable- if you encounter someone whose philosophy transcendthat idea to support their own elitism- you are talking to an idiot

you seem to hve some anxiety that islam is a religion that is (as the christian saying goes)"spread by the sword"

id like to point something out for your future understanding-

the posts you see here by islamophobes against islam get their information from the many websites put out by muslim hating chrisitans-

i wish it werent so but it is-

now the problems you have as a pagan in america are largely derived from plainly simpleminded christians who read their own bible in a literal and very unimaginative- spiritually impoverished fundamentalist way-
it is so pervasive our own intellectually challenged president said that his favorite philosopher is Jesus(ata)

understand that the same grasping and controlling spritually challenged people who misinterpert their own scripture- then go on to read the qur'an in the same literalist manner- (thats just like the extremists in the caves of bora bora)

so please keep that in mind-

the religion of islam is the first and to date only religion to address and condemn outright racism-
also sexism - (the misinterpertations on that could fill books- which already do)
slavery-
i really did want to share some stories of my own but the mood is getting a tad muslim bashing- which happens in every muslim panelists website- just look at how every one has degenerated into hateful blather-

so i was waiting to see if the inevitable would happen here- it still seems pretty reasonable-

ROSS- ive already answered you at length with supporting references and scripture and history about your misunderstanding os dhimmitude-

as ive asked you before- where on the planet earth is this is practice today?
since ive answered you at length im not going to repeat myself-

so paganplace if you have a passage you are troubled by- lets discuss it-

also the quran has two parts which escape all christian misinterperters-

part was revealed at medina, and part was revealed at mecca- one is in reference to specific historical events that were happening at that time and only apply to that situation- part applies to all muslims for all time-

a small but important distinction
peace

Oh, going way back, I missed this from you, Victoria, speaking of dialogue:

victoria:

"paganplace- there isnt anything in the quran that compels a muslim to croak emslave or try to forcibly convert you."

Well, maybe not compels, (I hope!) but still that I've heard used to justify it. I've even heard the 'there is no compulsion in religion' as simply a means of *denial* that conversion at sword point constitutes compulsion.

"anywhere - i assume (though possibly wrongly) that you are of a wiccan flavor?
you know there are white and black hearts-"

Sure, Wiccan in major part. There's more, let's say. I'm not sure what you mean about 'white hearts and black hearts' ..certainly not in the sense of some Manichean dualism I can only guess you're implying. Wiccan views of black ans white (apart from certain ideas of 'black' and 'white' magic inherited from the culture around us) really aren't based in that white=good black=evil dualism. It's much more similar to the Eastern yin-yang polarity than any idea of judgement or inherent categorizations of 'good people' or 'bad people,' certainly. There's a mystical concept involving a Black Heart Of Innocencein a few highly mystical traditions that really aren't worth explaining here, save that they have nothing to do with dualism. Which is a long way around saying, you'll have to explain what you mean by that. :)

"however i really will carry a conversation and assure you - you and your beliefs are not subject to coercive conversion (it doesnt exist in islam)
sorry- its really true-
its not allowed- its actually exhorted against-
the qur'an actually says there is no compulsion in religion-"

That's good to hear, though, as above, it doesn't seem to offer much comfort when others seem to take that to mean, 'Whatever we do isn't religious compulsion,' :) There's ...room for improvement in the interfaith communication, let's say, particularly when radicalized views get all the attention. :)

"but i didnt want to say that- i noticed you stated that there was one muslim in your town-
i was the only muslim in my town in september of 2001- ill share more tomorrow about it if it continues to be friendly in here"

Well, if I said there was actually only one, I misspoke. One family in a particularly visible position, was what I meant. I was certainly scared for them, though, and a little proud of my community for rallying around them. What I ended up offended and a little worried by was when prominent TV preachers started saying, 'This is your fault, America, for tolerating those Pagans and others we don't like.' ....And our president's version of being a 'voice of tolerance' was only in terms of 'However you worship my God, you're an American.'

Gee, thanks.

Of course, as Mulsims are concerned, certain right wingers then commenced to trying to 'prove' that the Muslim God *isn't* the same God as Christians worship, so, yeah. Room for concern there. That aside, Victoria, what would you have us know? Vic

What shocks me in these comments is not the ignorance of Islam. That's a given. And frankly, I blame it on my own people - Muslims. Too many of us have been too isolationist in this country for too long. We have not done enough to educate our fellow Americans (and I mean education in an enrichment way, not a conversion way) on how we Muslims understand and practice this faith. At the very least, we should have spent much more time emphasizing that "Allah" is the Arabic term for God - and the Qur'an points out over and over again that it is same God that revealed the Torah and the Bible.

Nor have we Muslims communicated well enough to others about how most of us feel about terrorism committed by Muslims. (Even though we keep on saying it, if other people aren't hearing it, then I put the blame at least partly on the people talking). So let me say it now: the vast majority of Muslims I know feel terrorized and appalled that people who use our holy language are heinous murderers.

What really shocks me in these comments to my blog is people's ignorance of America. So many comments say that Islam is incompatible with America - that Muslims can never be Americans. That Islam is essentially and inherently violent.

The darkest days in the history of this great country are littered with similar statements. Remember the people who said that Catholics couldn't be Americans because they were Papists? Jews couldn't be Americans because they were Christ-killers? Blacks couldn't be Americans because they were racially inferior? The Italians and Irish couldn't be American because of their eating and drinking habits? Indians, Japanese, Mexicans, couldn't be Americans?

Is that the America you people believe in - an America that shuts people out because of an essentialist (and erroneous) view of their heritage? Those statements led to some of our ugliest actions. In America, we atone for Japanese internment, for slavery and segregation, for excluding people in our immigration policy because of their skin color and language and religion. These are wrongs that we should not have committed as a nation. Why are you trying to bring back our darkest days?

There is nothing more un-American than to say that one group is incompatible with this country because of their heritage - racial, religious, ethnic, national, linguistic, etc.

We call that racism.

I am an American, proud and true. I love this nation enough to make it what I believe it was meant to be - a country based on the ethics of pluralism, dignity and equality, built by all, enjoyed by all.

White people are not more American than me (would you write Martin Luther King Jr out of American history because of his skin color?). Christians are not more American than me (scholars say perhaps 1 out 5 African slaves in America were Muslim; people of my faith helped build this nation from its beginnings). People who came on the Mayflower are not more American than my immigrant father who enrolled at Notre Dame in 1976 to get an MBA.

That is the American ethic. It is in danger right now. But I believe in our future. I believe, with Woody Guthrie, that this train is bound for glory. And I believe with Langston Hughes, who said:

America never was America to me
And yet I swear this oath -
America will be

Mr Page, NERO fed Christians to the Lions. People of faith will experience trials and tribulations. It is a price to be paid.

deb- back on the muslim panelists spreading the love i see- you wrote-

In other words, Allah is sending thundering messages on those who are not respectful followers of his message.

And this differs from every other religion in the world how?

paganplace is expected to respect the message of her beliefs- (sorry if youre not female paganplace- its your gentleness) if the laws of her universe are abused- there are repurcussions-

in hinduism if the laws of karma are not respected- there is punishment- a regression in the wheel of rebirth-

etc...etc...

if you have a problem with the laws of retribution and accountability for actions in this world- you can complain to god in your next conversation with her-

mercy deb- even a parent sends thundering messages to their child if they dont repsect their words or message-
even a mother cat will swipe at an errant kitten to get it back in line-

what a strange complaint you have-

PABLO- It seems youve discovered some new islamophobic website-
a little knowledge is a dangerous thing pablo- islam is not a religion of simplemindedness or fundamentalist literal interpertations-

(as youve probably noticed- hose who have that literal simpleminded interpertation of the quran are causing an awful lot of trouble for everyone in the world- its not a nonsensical book of rules andthen other non-sensical hanging of the rules for no reason-

do you really think 1 1/2 billion people in the world are following a religion that says one thing and then says- oops i changed my mind- never mind what i said before?

do me a favor pablo for your own sake-
actually read 9-1 to 9-10

stay away from those with little knowledge-
while its greater than yours- its less than the most rudimentary child has-

Ah, let's see, where's the dumbest place for a Pagan to stand in the world:

Ah, between two warring religions who both believe they have the one true God as depicted in their 'one holy books,' both of which have plenty of passages describing all the horrible things they're supposed to do to the likes of me...

:)

Ok, really. I wonder if a less-attached perspective here would help. I constantly see these back-and-forths on the Net between Muslims and Christians, each accusing the other of facets of their own religions and histories that they absolve themselves of, without actually renouncing the terror and violence they've each led to.

There's a communication gap.

Certainly, if passages in the Bible or Koran seem to advocate violence or forcible conversion or that whole 'taking over the world' thing, that's something that ought to be looked to. Too often, when these things are presented to either side, the response is simply, 'You're wrong,' or a laundry list of what the other side can be accused of, an assurance that the one side is ultimately righteous, and around and around it goes.

Someone posted some passages from the Koran, apparently as 'proof' that Islam is a tolerant religion, ...have to admit that to read those passages didn't exactly reassure, especially since they seemed to claim at best that 'You're pretty safe if you believe in our God and something about a Last Day,' (gee, thanks.)

I've seen precise parallels from Christians and even a few Jews, (Being in America, I've talked to few Muslims about religion, in person, anyway: When it does come up, the usual reaction to, 'You might understand why I find a lot of this stuff in the book that's supposed to be perfect kind of *alarming?*' The usual reaction is, "Oh,no, no, this is peace. And we're right, and we'll take over the world eventually."

Gee, I've heard *that* before. Not too reassuring.

I think, really, that both religions, taken as some kind of whole, can't really hear themselves, never mind each other.

I've certainly heard from both, "My ultimate righteous gives me the right to kill you, but trust me, I and/or my God be merciful." (while others still will define forcible conversion *as* that mercy.)

Gee, that's reassuring.

There are 'ways out' for both of these big religions. Maybe recognizing that these two 'perfect systems' are inherently capable of being at total loggerheads, putting that aside, and instead being committed to peace and global (and local) community *first.*

Voices for tolerance and multiculturalism are often accused of being blind to 'the dangers of this or that imperialistic religion,' ...I say, no, not me. In fact, I know all too well what can happen when either one seeks control, and gets some. It never ends. It's never enough.

We have to be committed to tolerance and understanding, and have to say *no* to extremism, and that means, I think, doing better than unsatisfying insistences that 'No, we're not like that. We're the good guys, they're the bad guys.'

In Islam's case, we certainly hear more of Christian conservatives quoting the Koran like they like to quote their own Bible.

I say, to either, if you think you're sitting on the 'true world religion,' *have a little faith.* Trying to force it only gets messy. Real messy.

Mr. Patel,

You ask, "why are you and your family are implicated in and held responsible for the criminal acts and thinking of a minority within your religion."

Its the same reason that some people of all color, and sex hate the catholics, jews, baptist, methodists, and any other religion. And for people who don't believe in God.

The same reason that some people hate a particular race, a particular sex, a particular political party, etc...

They equate the actions of a sub group with the actions of the whole group. It justifies their hate to themselves and to their own peer group.
Some people have nothing but their own hate of other to keep them going. They would be lost without their hate. Who would they blame for all the worlds problems? Its always "They are the problem!!" "We are ok! If only they believed as we do everything would be ok!"

And you will always have those people who spit on, ridicule, and mock your religious beliefs unfortunately. Its wrong. Plain and simple. But for many people there always has to be an external cause for their own problems as well as the worlds problems. Religion, like politics is nuetral. They are both nothing but beliefs systems. How people act on those beliefs is more important. I know that statement might offend some religious people. They view their beliefs as the word of God. And thats ok. I can respect that. But today I view my beliefs in God as an act of faith. Nothing more.

Abdul,

These wars that you cite were not Christian wars; they were not religious wars at all. They were not based on forcing religious domination, and they were not fought in the name of any religion. As such, they do not add to your argument at all.

The Qu'ran basically took the stories and figures from the bible, and changed them from Jewish and Christian to Muslim; then they said that Islam was the original religion and Judaism and Christianity were offshoots of it. Since it was written 700 years after the death of Jesus, all of the material was already there to work from and update with Muhammed's beliefs on how things should be.

Abdul wrote:
but look at the GLORIOUS QORAN 1400 plus years same exact text not a single word missing nor added nor EDITED every corner of the world exactly the same. If you guys are in the mood of a miracle you got one right there.

What proof do you have that the quran has not been changed ?
Even if it is not changed that does not automatically make it divine. Why can't SATAN write such a book. In fact the lack of virtuous teaching and the evil acts of the paedophile you call prophet only supports the claim that it is from satan.

Abdul wrote:
My advice do not fall for the media I repeat DO NOT. Their goal is exactly what you are Ross, Pablo, Deb and they are smiling when they read your postings.

Muslims and islamic countries fear the media because of the fear of being exposed. They have to shelter this beast called Islam, thanks to the media and internet this monstor is being exposed in broad daylight.
Thanks to the internet you and other muslims have now started "advising" rather than "warning", "threatening" and eventual "killing" like you used to do to critics of islam in the past ie. someone like Rushdie or Theo Van Gogh.

The critics do not need the media to critisize islam, there is more than enough evil in the quran and hadith. With common sense and an open mind you too will be able to see the folly of this cult.

I really like this guy HALOZCEL and his great knowledge of wars by the soldiers of Allah, well
HALO you only counted 90 years of wars i.e 650-740. and you used the word "BLOODY BATTLES" for your information battles are supposed to be bloody.

Next lets look at the last 90-100 years and see how our self claimed peace loving Christians fared, 2 world wars and the 3rd one in progess
more innocent men, women and CHILDREN were massacred in batches of millions, and please do not forget to count few millions and some change innocent Japanese civillians killed by your christian WMD by the order of Christian commander in chief, and dropped by christian pilots.
How many killed in Korean war?
How many korean women were raped by american christian soldiers?
Same questions about Vietnam. How many Iraqis women and children and ofcourse men killed so far by the 2 gulf war at least 1.5
millions and counting by our christian armies. I can go on with the list but i think I proved my point that you are nothing but uneducated.

And dont forget to count the casualties of the
crusades, I have not even touched the subject of
Palestinains.

So many people post so much crap about Islam and the Qoran by refering to qoran chapter so and so
I bet they ever touched or even seen the holy book they think they know everything about qoran and its content.

My request to you all is please do not start emailing your experts on FOX that you got cornered, instead try to understand Islam and peace because this is your opportunity and opportunity only knock once. and BTW those who are asking the validity of the words of Allah and Qoran better look at the Bible either it is Mark so and so Mathew so and so paul so and so john so and so etc. etc. and so many versions, but look at the GLORIOUS QORAN 1400 plus years same exact text not a single word missing nor added nor EDITED every corner of the world exactly the same. If you guys are in the mood of a miracle you got one right there.

My advice do not fall for the media I repeat DO NOT. Their goal is exactly what you are Ross, Pablo, Deb and they are smiling when they read your postings.

PEACE AND GOD BLESS.

As a Hindu and irrational I have had these feelings about Muslims sometimes. Jews sometimes. Then I realize for what. As I got older I realized the significance of Muslims in Indian culture and how they led. I realized that Indian Muslims were the most loyal people to India even more so then Hindus. Then as I grew I realized that Jews weren't so bad because while I might disagree with them, love the spirit of debate. I believe that we must have that debate, peacefully, and thoughtfully. Those who hurt that child did so out of anger, frustration, and pain. It's hard to expect them to be thoughtful, we then must have the patience to make them thoughtful. At the University of Texas at Dallas the Muslim Student Association has open forums to educate people on this. America being the nation of the "melting pot" should use this to its advantage. Lets be frank all of us have differences since the beginning of time and man for what xy's ancestors did to mine and vice versa. But this is a different day now. As we start see new technologies, things have never ever been there before, countries developing and learning new things. A changing economy that creates a higher demand for individuals with more foundation then ever before to adhere to those changes. It is this vehemence that mankind must focus on. The exciting things that bring us together, that make us more alive, stronger, more thought provoking. But until we learn to forgive each other. We never do those things. It is with that sadness that we are in this position today. Those, who are jealous of others, angry but not having an articulate way to express it, and those who are afraid and don't understand the changes in our global world are the ones creating this problem. To that end they must be educated or eradicated. We can't kill everyone off that's bad and think the problem will go away. Human nature contradicts that thought. But we definitely can learn to educate. Our solution should be to educate. We are doing that here and now.

Rajesh

Eboo wrote:
My answer: read the comments people have made to my previous postings on this blog. Notice the ugly terms they use to describe the Prophet (may the peace and blessings of God be upon him). In what world is it appropriate to insult the founder of a religion in a public forum?

This link expains it all:

Islam beheaded
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=20936

"Muhammad's empire of faith has managed to thrive in the modern world for one simple reason: Muslims have kept Muhammad's dark past a secret. Indeed, they have gone beyond keeping it a secret; they have somehow convinced themselves (and many others) that Muhammad was an outstanding moral example, perhaps even the greatest moral example of all time. Perpetuating this fraud has been, in my opinion, the most stupendous deception in world history.

True, there are plenty of instances in Muhammad's life that one could view as the deeds of a moral individual, and Muslims are quick to point out his acts of charity and his dedication to prayer. However, in assessing the overall character of a man, we must take into account all of his actions, not just the ones that support our feelings about him. For instance, suppose I become convinced that the greatest person in history was a man named John Gacy. I could point to his charity work at local hospitals, to his activities in the Boy Scouts and the Jaycees[2], to his patient endurance of numerous physical ailments, to his community activities such as neighborhood barbecues and other social gatherings, to his generosity to others, to his dedication to his family, and to his outstanding work ethic, which made him one of the pillars of his local business community. Yet, if I am to make a case for the moral superiority of Mr. Gacy, I must not leave out the fact that he raped, tortured, and murdered more than thirty boys and buried them under his house."

With respect to the one billion Muslims in the world. Most of these Muslims live in fear of crazy Islamic mullahs/clerics and death / truth squads. They have little or no education other than Allah is good and no access to the outside world. Remove the fear and watch the conversion to other faiths or to no faith at all. And most became Muslims due to the threat of the sword as per the militant passages of the Koran.

And Mohammed was illiterate i.e. he did not write the Koran nor could he proofread what was written. The myth says some "pretty wingy thingie" angel person wrote/sent/delivered the Koran to the prophet.

But we all know "pretty wingy thingies" are myths from ancient pagan religions i.e. some overzealous, militaristic, women-hating scribe wrote the Koran.

I repeat: What students should be taught about angels.

http://www.likeacat.com/index.asp?PageAction=Custom&ID=1

"The beginnings of the biblical belief in angels must be sought in very early folklore. The gods of the Hittites and Canaanites had their supernatural messengers, and parallels to the Old Testament stories of angels are found in Near Eastern literature. "

"The 'Magic Papyri' contain many spells to secure just such help and protection of angels. From magic traditions arose the concept of the guardian angel. "

"Pretty wingie things" also take up space in the NT and OT. All references should be deleted as another move to ecumenism.

In many of the responses, I see much heat and little light. Those who attack Islam and consider themselves "expert" on who Muhammad is and what the Qur'an teaches are far from the truth. When you fail to understand the historical and social context in which various verses were revealed, you then make incorrect assumptions about what the Prophet intended. When you select the worst English translations (some of which were produced by translators who were not favorable to Islam), the implicit content of the Arabic is lost. Unfortunately, many modern Muslims have also done exactly the same thing, which has led to the modern Salafist or political "Islamist" movements that advocate exactly the opposite of what the Qur'an intends.

Baha'is face something similar to what you face, Eboo, in many parts of the world. Because the Baha'i Faith emerged from Islam in a similar way that Christianity emerged from Judaism, people often misunderstand and misrepresent it.

In the Islamic world, Baha'is are bullied and taunted, deprived of education, considered illegitimate (since governments in most Islamic countries do not recognize Baha'i marriage), deprived of social services, and sometimes killed. This is because of the orthodox Islamic belief that there can never be a divine Messenger after Muhammad. In some parts of the Christian world, Baha'is have been barred from villages, imprisoned or killed through the influence of state churches (the first African Baha'i martyr was in Portugese Guinea, tortured to death because of his religion; individuals were expelled from some Pacific countries through church pressure).

In the U.S., Baha'i teachings and history are often vilified - not merely critiqued - in print and on the internet by people who call themselves Christian or atheist. In secular nations where communism, fascism, or one-party dictatorships have ruled, Baha'i activities have been severely curtailed because the religion's universal principles are seen as a threat.

Baha'is defend the divine origin of Islam - not a popular position at this time when emotions are running so high that vocal opponents will use every opportunity to silence moderate voices. We live in an age in which people feel themselves entitled to "speak truth" - meaning get in your face and shout you down if they disagree with you. Such approaches merely harden positions and engender further resentment. Courtesy and gaining friendly influence are scarcely heard of. I am afraid Muslims will continue to experience a great deal of difficulty here in the U.S. because enough "Muslims" have engaged in terrorist acts that your authentic voice is discounted by people who are uninterested in examining Islam further than what grabs the headlines.

lepidopteryx,

I'm not saying that holy books must promise to give the same rewards to all, I'm not concerned by it.

I was just responding to Hannabal claim that the quoted verse displays tolerance and respect for all faiths.

"Now if it promises the non muslim the same number of Houris as that received by muslims that would be different !"

Show me ANY holy book that promises non-believers and believers will be treated the same in the afterlife.

Hannabal wrote:
Here is what God teaches us in the Quran about other religions and I dare you to produce something like it form your background. Please, just one verse, that's all, from the good book that shows such tolerance and respect.
22.17 Those who believe (in the Qur’an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians, Christians, Magians, and Polytheists,- God will judge between them on the Day of Judgment: for God is witness of all things.

Please tell us in what way does the verse show any respect and tolerance for people of other faith's ? All it says is that God will judge everyone, something that can be found in all religions.

Now if it promises the non muslim the same number of Houris as that received by muslims that would be different !

Hannabal wrote:
Here is what God teaches us in the Quran about other religions and I dare you to produce something like it form your background. Please, just one verse, that's all, from the good book that shows such tolerance and respect.
22.17 Those who believe (in the Qur’an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians, Christians, Magians, and Polytheists,- God will judge between them on the Day of Judgment: for God is witness of all things.

Is it not surprising the all knowing Allah was not aware of other major faith's like Hinduism, Jainism and Buddhism ? Why is there no specific mention of them ?
Answer: Because the quran was written by Mohammed and not revealed to him.

Mo,

In the words of Sir Richard Francis Burton:
All Faith is false, all Faith is true:
Truth is the shattered mirror strown
In myriad bits; while each believes his little bit the whole to own.

I am sure that our Muslim friends will try to justify the Hadiths, writtings, and Qur'anic passages below but there is no justification. This is the true face of Islam. I do not know how any United States Citizen would embrace this evil religion. I know the Muslims are instructed in the Qur'an to lie so that they can get an advantage on their enemy. In Victoria's case I think that she is to nice to do that or believe these passages so she will no doubt come up with something to justify these verses and sayings. I pray she and all the other Muslims would see the true face of Islam and escape.

Bukhari: V4B52N220 "Allah's Prophet said, ‘I have been made victorious with terror.'"

Qur'an 8:12 "I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle."

Qur'an 8:57 "If you gain mastery over them in battle, inflict such a defeat as would terrorize them, so that they would learn a lesson and be warned."

Qur'an 8:67 "It is not fitting for any prophet to have prisoners until he has made a great slaughter in the land."

Ishaq: 588 "When the prophet descends on your land none of your people will be left when he leaves."

Ishaq: 327 "Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.'"

Pablo

Eboo wrote:
My answer: read the comments people have made to my previous postings on this blog. Notice the ugly terms they use to describe the Prophet (may the peace and blessings of God be upon him). In what world is it appropriate to insult the founder of a religion in a public forum?

People insult the founder in a public forum because a even a slight critisim of the paedophile in public could result in him being tried for blasphemy and put to death by the very followers of this so called prophet. As a south asian you are probably aware this happens on a regular basis against minorities in Pakistan.

Religions must be analysed, scrutinised and critised, only then can we seperate the ones that contain virtues from the ones filled with vices. Any school child can deduce that Mo was a evil man by just reading the hadiths.
Why must a man who claimed that God spoke to him on a daily basis perform any acts of evil at all ?
Why should a book that muslims claim are the literal words of Allah contain any evil verses ?

Eboo wrote:
Read how the commentators insist on highlighting only the dark sides of Islam, making some things up, taking other things out of context and dramatically twisting the tradition to which I belong. Doesn’t every nation/religion/tradition have a dark side?

The devil is in the details, the quran is full of evil with a few good verses interpersed in between. The brand of islam practised in islamic countries is not too different from the one practised by Mo. Whilst other religions are embarrased by the bad stuff the muslims proudly implement them. Infact more muslim countries have started adopting the sharia law. State endorsed Stoning for adultery, beheading of apostates, death/imprisonment for blasphemy towards islam, dhimmitute for non muslims etc is widely practiced to this day.

So Mr. Patel, every nation/religion/tradition OR HUMAN has a dark side OR PAST but what matters is when they are enforced on others, do you see the crimes I listed above in on muslim countries ? Do you deny the fact they are implemented in muslim countries ?

Please answer one more question Mr. Patel, If I were an apostate of islam living in say saudi why must I be put to death just because the electric signals in my brain now form a different pattern ?

Eboo wrote:
Isn’t America about people from different backgrounds – racial, ethnic, national, linguistic, religious – who maintain pride in their heritage and come together to build a new nation?
I want to be a part of that. Millions of Muslims in America want to be part of building this nation.

You cannot be a part of it and that's not because you do not believe in humanity but because you follow islam.
You like all muslims are a member of UMMAH, therefore all muslims are your brothers. This UMMAH has no room for non muslims. The concept of secularism does not exist in islam.

Mr. Patel,

The discrimination is nothing when compared to the heinous acts commited by the members of your own faith.

Here a sample of one of those acts:

*****WARNING********
Please be advised that the images in this video are NOT EASY TO WATCH. They are NOT suitable for children or people with heart conditions. As unfortunate as it is, this brutal and inhumane action is part of the reality in Iran under the rule of the mullahs and we are presenting it here to further expose the atrocities committed by them.

http://www.iran-e-azad.org/stoning/video.html

More here:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Gallery/6.htm

Victoria,

Historian has described dhimmitude for you, this is implemented (varying degrees) in almost all islam countries to this day. Do you still think it is a favourable practice ?

Mo wrote:
islam (quran and sunna)is divine revelation from the creator lord who created this universe and sustaain and maintain this universe.whether you belive it or not ,you apply it or not ,you mock at it or not,you fight it or not ,you hate it or not ,you tolerate it or not,it wouldnot change it from being divine revelation that its here to stay ,its mercey to mankind as it says, whether you belive or not.

Use you brains, do your own thinking and become a prophet yourself. Stop bowing to to a fake deity of a 7th century narcissist paedophile.

If the man who received those revelations engaged in paedophilia, murder, war, threats, robbery etc
and still end up in HOURI paradise why should the rest of the followers not follow his example ?
Go Muzzies Go

True status of Dhimmis

Dhimmis were subject to legal and social inferiority, and discrimination was permanent, necessary, and inherent in the system and institutionalized in law and practice, due to the fact that Dhimmis were not allowed to testify against a Muslim in court. Dhimmis were often subject to violence and crimes committed by Muslims.

In his classic treatise on the principles of Islamic governance, the 11th-century Shafi'i scholar Al-Mawardi divided the conditions attached to ‘’dhimma’’ on top of the requirement to pay tribute into compulsory and desirable. The compulsory conditions included prohibitions on blasphemy against Islam, entering into sexual relations or marriage with a Muslim woman, proselytizing among Muslims, and assisting the enemies of Islam. The desirable conditions included a requirement to wear distinctive apparel, a prohibition to visibly display religious symbols, wine, or pork, ringing church bells, or loudly praying, a requirement to bury dead bodies unobtrusively, and finally, a prohibition on riding horses or camels, but not donkeys. The latter restrictions were largely symbolic in nature and were designed to highlight the inferiority of dhimmis compared to Muslims.

According to Islamic law, the permission for dhimmis to retain their places of worship and build new ones depended upon the circumstances in which the land fell under the Muslim rule.

Dhimmi communities were subjected to the payment of taxes in favor of Muslims — a requirement that was central to dhimma as a whole. Sura 9:29 stipulates that jizya be exacted from non-Muslims as a condition required for jihad to cease. Failure to pay the jizya could result in the pledge of protection of a dhimmi's life and property becoming void, with the dhimmi facing the alternatives of conversion, enslavement or death.

Stranger in a Strange Land is a science fiction novel by Robert Heinlein published in 1961.It tells the story of Valentine M.Smith,a human raised by Martians on Mars,as he returns to Earth....
Yes,Martian Valentine says,if you read history books that say islamic doctrine is to be spread by the sword,the history books should be Rewritten.
First of all,Real History can not be Rewritten,Real History had happened,only TALES and EMPTY WORDS can be rewritten by martian.

Real History.Bedouin invasion of central asia.

Caliph uthman,his reign AD 644-656(caliph of muslims killed by another muslim).
First bedouin attacks to central asia.
Bukhara war.Date 673.between turks and horasan governer ziyad and bukhara looted by bedouins.
Second bukhara war,680.between turks and yazeed(grandchild of livereater cannibal hint) men.
Secestan war,685.between Rutbil and obaydallah.
Hocante war,699.Cities of hocante,kes,sogd looted by islamic looters.
Baykand war,705.between turks and kutayba,baykand invaded,looted and all turks in the city killed by bedouin vultures.
Vardan battle and besiege of Bukhara city.
Talkan city massacre by the blooddrinker kutayba men,array of looters,killers,rapists.40000 people slain by the soldiers of allah
Suman city massacre.all men slain.
Faryab city,all men slain.
Bazgeet castle,all men slain.
Harzem battle,city destroyed and all people killed by bedouin bats.
Curcan massacre,716.Dagistan city 14000 people slain by soldiers of allah.
Sogd battle 720.
Seyhun river battle,date 722.
Huttal battle,726.
Re capture of bukhara by turkish hakan sulu,728.
Kemerce castle battle,729.
Semerkant battle.
Second fall of bukhara,732.city invaded by desert mouses.
Ceyhun battle,737.
Fall of Semerkant,739.
Seyhun river battle,740.cities of Tashkant and Fergana invaded by vulture looters.

Yes,real history from AD 650 to AD 740 at least twentytwo bloody battles between central asians and soldiers of allah.
Who is martian,who is not?
Who is the Tale writer,what is the real history?
Let the readers make decision.

Well, that gets to be a proble, Mo, since you're not the only kids on the block basically saying the same things about different brands of the same sort of religions.

Now, I'm not going to argue the relative merits of some belief systems that in the basics look pretty much the same to me, anyway:

One thing you have to realize is that any of them can *say* stuff like you said, and it always leads to intolerance, bigotry, and violence, displaced onto the will of some God.

We do have a choice, whoever we are. And that choice is whether or not to get along and learn to live with respect, or to descend to, well, these wars. When we start saying our own actions are beyond human criticism, we haven't gained divinity...

We've lost humanity.

to muslims and none muslims every where.
islam (quran and sunna)is divine revelation from the creator lord who created this universe and sustaain and maintain this universe.whether you belive it or not ,you apply it or not ,you mock at it or not,you fight it or not ,you hate it or not ,you tolerate it or not,it wouldnot change it from being divine revelation that its here to stay ,its mercey to mankind as it says, whether you belive or not.
divine revelation doesnot need reformation nor alteration,if you think that divine revelation will twist or change for you or the whole world you are on serious delusion and illusion.
islam(quran and sunna)is not a human culture that comes and go live and die,its divine revelation from the eternal lord who never die,you mortal son of mortal will die whether you belive or not and you shall go back to the creator lord who intiate and originate you from none, whether you like it or not ,the divine revelation is mercey and ordinance from the creator lord who created the heavens and the earth and what so ever betwen, belive or not ,but its very unwise to refuse the mercey that is revealed to you from your creator lord who made you and provide for you,its very unwise to leave the mercey of the eternal lord and take the human junk as guidance .
islam is not only rolling on this planet earth since muhammed but allready been decreed and predestened to mankind befor even the creator lord created this universe.so deal whith it ,its here to stay,gother all people of the world you will never ever be able to stop it ,people befor you tryied hard they failed badly .
every word of the divine revelation is divine ,true ,perfect,and ordinance and command from the creator lord whether you like it or not belive it or not.
those who are interesting let them go straight to quran and sunna and study it.
the allmighty creator lord could ,v made evey body on the truth, but he gave every body the choice to chose after he all glory goes to him cleared every thing out and made right and wrong manifest to every body.
human being dialogue need divine supervision,human being is ignorant and bias ,we all need to come to common word ,no way in this life people will ever stop differing until they let the divine revelation of the creator lord be the sole judge.

Dear Hannabal,

You are not telling the whole story. Muhammad was nice to Christians and Jews at first and that is the source of the positive verses about the people of the book. When the Christians and Jews rejected his revelations as not from God he became violent towards them. Qur'an 9 the Jihad chapter abrogates all the nice verses. It is written in the Qur'an: "None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things"(Qur'an 2:106)? One example of “abrogation is as follows”

“There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in Taghut {idolatry} and believes in Allah, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allah is All-Hearer, All-Knower” (2:256).

This verse was done away by:

“Then when the Sacred Months (the 1st, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun {unbelievers} wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat {the Islamic ritual prayers}), and give Zakat {alms}, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful” (Qur’an 9:5).

That is why there are so many anti-Christian verses and sayings in the Qur'an and in the Haddiths about Christians and Jews.

Pablo

Hannabal wrote:

"...ardent enemies of islam write and regurgitate them here on this blog or educate yourselves and understand this beautiful religion."

Islam genuinely teaches hatred for other relgions and cultures. If Islam did not, then Islam would not have spread by the sword - as documented (unbiased) history shows. Now the verses you quoted are in reality signs of intolerance and proves my point, precisely. Because just reading the verses, it cannot escape the notice of the reader that Allah is very specific on whom his bounties and benevolence will be bestowed. In other words, Allah is sending thundering messages on those who are not respectful followers of his message. That IS intolerance. Because Muslims say it comes from Allah - which itself is questionable, so one must believe it is true and hence the validity of the message. This is a form of tribalism that has no place in a westernized country like USA.

Again, the cherry-picked verses from the Quran you have quoted send warnings that Allah will judge so and so on the last day. I refuse to bow my head before such a bloodthirsty deity who is all poised to rob me of my freedom under the false pretext of "selective intolerance". Just quote Quran (009:029) as a characteristic example and we can see how this tolerance is practiced inside Islam.

I am sorry that I cannot quote anything so similarly violent (like Islam) from any religious text I know. However I would ask you (and the readers) to literally compare Quran (005:033) and the 1st Amendment of the US constitution - the latter reads:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

And Quran (005:033) states:

"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter; "

Compare for yourself.

Mr. Patel writes "Something profoundly un-American is happening in America"

We randomly gathered people in prison for years in solitary confinement and we have clearly tortured others. Some few are given secret trials in which they are not allowed to confront the evidence against them, and in which threats are made to the careers of the lawyers who attempt to defend them. The government can spy on us at will, or so it seems. Also, every conceivable branch of the government is now politicized, and these appointments are given to people whose main ideological bent is to prove that government is unnecessary or part of the problem. The President thinks that simply making a signing statement allows him to ignore any part of any legislation that displeases him, and the Vice-President claims that his office is actually a fourth branch of the government that is unrestricted by any of the other three.

So this statement by Mr. Patel about un-American things going on is most certainly true.

I am sad to say, though, that the religious bigotry he notices is not new and it is as American as apple pie. As recently as the 1940s restrictive real estate covenants made it impossible for my father to by a house in a certain neighborhood in Indianapolis because he was Jewish. In the overall scheme of things that is a small thing, I mention it only because it affected my immediate family, but these examples could be complounded a million fold by other people with all sorts of religious backgrounds.

It is true that we fear what we don't know. Judging from the above posts there exist a lot of people spouting some mighty ignorant and venemous statements full of hatred and contempt for a religion that teaches tolerance and respect for the other. I think you folks owe it to yoursleves to rely less on other people's opinion and read the Quran for yourselves before you pass any judgments. You can be lazy and read just what the declared and ardent enemies of islam write and regurgitate them here on this blog or educate yourselves and understand this beautiful religion.

Deb, you write: "Is it the Islam in the Quran that simply commands genocide and refuses to acknowledge other faiths as equal?"

Here is what God teaches us in the Quran about other religions and I dare you to produce something like it form your background. Please, just one verse, that's all, from the good book that shows such tolerance and respect.

2.62 Those who believe (in the Qur’an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

5:69. Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

22.17 Those who believe (in the Qur’an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians, Christians, Magians, and Polytheists,- God will judge between them on the Day of Judgment: for God is witness of all things.

002.132 And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! God has chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of submission(to God)." 2.133 Were you witnesses when death appeared before Jacob? Behold, he said to his sons: "What will you worship after me?" They said: "We shall worship your god and the god of your fathers, of Abraham, Isma’il and Isaac,- the one (True) god: To Him we bow submission." 2.134 That was a people that have passed away. They shall reap the fruit of what they did, and you of what you do! Of their merits there is no question in your case! 2.135 They say: "Become Jews or Christians if you would be guided (To salvation)." Say thou: "Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with God." 2.136 Say ye: "We believe in God, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma’il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to God in submission." 2.137 So if they believe as you believe, they are indeed on the right path; but if they turn back, it is they who are in schism; but God will suffice you as against them, and He is the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing.

Peace

The Muslim worldview does not comport with our worldview. Real Muslims cannot embrace pluralism because real Muslims believe that every people should be governed by an Islamic State. Therefore, it is a pipe dream to project a Western pluralistic worldview on people who believe that every nation should be under Islamic rule. Any Muslim who denies this is in conflict with the words of the Qur'an. Westerners who think that the worldview of Islam is compatible with the worldview of the USA simply do not understand the message of the Qur'an. I see these supposed "experts" from the West all the time on CNN and the rest of the blinded media outlets. Muhammad said in his farewell address: "I was ordered to fight all men until they say 'There is no god but Allah.'" And in the Qur'an Muhammad was supposed to have received a revelation from God that said: "Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah" (Qur'an 8:39). True Muslims everywhere including here in the USA are working hard to bring Muhammad's words to fruition while we here in the West blinded by the glasses of pluralism cannot see what is really going on.

Pablo

Eboo Patel wrote:

"The people who are trying to shut us out are not only twisting our faith, they are insulting the soul of this country."

I have a question for Mr. Patel, and hopefully the moderator shall allow me that free pass.

While it is fashionable to admit that Islam is touted as a peaceful religion, there lies the big problem: what brand of Islam is Eboo Patel talking about ? Is it the Islam in the Quran that simply commands genocide and refuses to acknowledge other faiths as equal [Quran(009:029),(047:004),(005:033)], or, the "politically correct" sanitized version as practised in the West and USA ?

Victoria

Looks like some of your fellow Americans are questioning your loyalty to your country for being Muslim.

Just like some did of Japanese Americans and German Americans during WWII. The interesting thing about that is that the Japanese Americans were interned in camps but not German Americans.

So, Eboo and other non-Caucasian Muslims are having a more difficult time as the profilings now seem enbedded in American minds - dark-skinned, bearded, funny clothes and hijabs are enough.

Racism and discrimination comes out of stereotypings as always.

RALPH you seem to have confused something-
the literal meaning of the word islam is both peace AND submission (to ALLAH) -
there is no such philosophy espoused as peace under submission -

also the quran commands of us repeatedly over and over again to respect the jews and chrisitans.

ROY- while i would certainly NEVER denounce what is written in the holy qur'an- i wholeheartedly and enthusiastically condemn and renounce all acts of violence to innocents springing from hateful and extremist hearts misinterperting their own religion to justify their ugly behavior.

JAMES BUCHANAN- i take great offense at you spitting on my irish progenitors and my american heritage- especially the day after st. patricks day!

for shame!

your forefather who shares your name would throw up endlessly at your right to spit on my americanism.

It is my Constitutionally protected Right to spit on your cultural heritage. The First Ammendment is a double edged sword. You're more than welcome to practice whatever beliefs suit your fancy, and it gives me the equal right to criticize you for having them.

When moderate Muslims denounce the violence written in the Koran against the infidels and the violent jihad movement, I will trust them and have sympathy for the discrimination they truly experience in the US and elsewhere.
This is just as what moderate Christians should do - denounce the hatred spewing from their extremists like Falwell, Robertson and Dobson. As long as the sheep of both of these potentially violent religions look the other way or secretly aplaud their extremists, I hope people of both religions suffer.

The Koran teaches that Muslims should not make freinds with Jews and Christians. Your religion started in violence and continues to use the sword to spread its message of "peace under submission." It opresses women, and is against lending money at interest.

The West must stop making concessions to your demands, eg, cross buns forbidden in English schools. You are the intolerant faith, not the Judeo Christian tradition.

You infiltrate Europe and America, but you do not conform or assimilate. You are like oil, we are like vinegar. Much like the stone age American Indians, and the European settlers. There can be no compromise.

Your ideology is to conquer the world through violence, not through reasonable persuasion, personal testimony of God's presence in your lives, or an appeal to miracles or prophecy because your Koran, unlike our Bible, does not possess any.

Look into the your faith. Question its writings. Look at its history. It's not very pretty. Read the Bible and pray that you may truly find the Way, the Truth and the Life.

dhimmi isnt state based discrimination ross- the word actually translates to 'protection'.

since there arent really any islamic states in the world-(even saudi arabia is a kingdom and not an islamic government believe it or not)
even the much misunderstood government of iran has an executive and lefislative branches and is a parliamentary system- although it is based on a theocratic based governance-it is still not an islamic government-

so which countires might you be referring to exactly?

in a historical sense dhimmi laws were enacted to PREVENT state sanctioned discrimination-
but thats a long topic and ive taken too much space here already.

now as far as the constitution goes- there are many american citizens imprisoned right now without representation, without due process, without a speedy and expeditious trial, and without charges altogether, also without the right to face their accusers- being held for 4 or more years under the unconstitutional "secret evidence"
which isnt a law but a made-up legal term-
meaning the evidence has to be held secret even from those being imprisoned because of 'national security'!

U.S. Constitution: Fourteenth Amendment

Fourteenth Amendment - Rights Guaranteed Privileges and Immunities of Citizenship, Due Process and Equal Protection

Section. 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

so again ross, what were you saying?

ps if the board doesnt turn mean ill post my own unbelievable experiences as far as discrimination goes-
were all human- and all subject to the same foibles and weaknesses and hopes and dreams-

peace

People who wall themselves off from the rest of society and through their religious, tribal, or ethnic identity declare themselves "different" should expect to be treated as such, especially on a playground. I'm not trying to blame the victims here, but getting along with others is a two way street. I grew up a white protestant in a white protestant majority area and due to other circumstances that made me stand out I too was harassed and bullied as a child.

If anything your story to me is a strong argument against indoctrinating children into traditions that force differences upon them. Why not let them grow up first and decide for themselves if they wish to adhere to the cultural traditions of their parents when they're older and more prepared to deal with the hardships caused by going against the grain? The simple inescapable truth of the matter is that religion is tribalism, and tribalism divides people. When you force a tribal identity on a child, especially under circumstances where it makes it impossible for them to minimize their differences with other kids, you are complicit in the abuse they'll inevitably suffer at the hands of other children. When in Rome...

Can you honestly tell us if the state based discrimination (dhimmi treatment) faced by non muslims in Islamic countries is better than the discrimination faced by muslims in the US where atleast the constitution guarantees equal rights for all ?

As you and many others have pointed out, the US has wonderful ideals but falls very short in practice.

God has given the US a wonderful potential. Our history can be looked at as having high ideals from the Native American "Peacemaker" through the Declaration of Independence. It's up to all of us to recognize the potential and to do all we can in our power to bring this potential to life.

BGONE- To use your own metaphor- let me parch your thirst with some truthful water- (reminds me of michael valentine smith in stranger n a strange land) if youve read history books that say islamic doctrine is to be spread by the sword, the history books should be rewritten.
'Death to infidels' is a western caricature and innacurately ascribed to muslims.
infidel comes from infidelis- which is latin word and was the designation used by the 6 different wars waged by christian kings. It was used by the crusaders to refer to the indigenous peoples of jerusalem bgone.
The saracens, or arabs- and strangely enough chistians in jerusalem werent spared but killed alongside the other infidel arabs.
So do we assume that from the actions of the crusaders that christians are commanded to kill infidels?
Atheists dont have a codified creed, but do we write in our history books that since polpot and hitler and stalin amd mao-tse-tung committed mass murder on their own people that atheist creed is to kill dissenters?
I would magine atheists would be quite offended at the suggestion that they are proponents of silencing dissent by violence- since it is ususally the opposite, isnt it?

Translation into english of the arabic qur'an wrongly translate the word 'kafir' many times as unbelievers.
Kafir itself means literally to cover up or to conceal. For instance, the same verb is used by a farmer to 'cover up' the seed in the earth when planting crops.
A kafir is a person who is a muslim, or has had an islamic education or been instructed in islam by one who knows about it- and consciously makes a decision to conceal knowledge of islam,
or cover up the true message (to themselves or others) through active misrepresentation-
so a kafir is not an unbeliever in general- or even someone who simply doesnt believe in islam-
a rejector of the message of islam they have received.

so you are not a kafir, paganplace is not a kafir- it is a word i hate to hear people use- as actually it is most difficult to ascertain the knowledge aperson preiviously has had access to, to make such a judgement.

Even the very hateful at times posts by some people especially on muslim panelists posts are not kafirs, theyre spreading unture propoganda,and ugly misinformation- but their source of misinformation often come from inaccurate fear mongering islamophobes who never had knowledge of islam to begin with.

In all of the conversations and remarks ive seen there has only been one kafir on thses boards- and i can only make that judgement because he has specifically defined himself in that way-(although he also has a very twisted and prejudiced untrue grasp of islam, was never a muslim himslef to reject it- and i personally would not give him that designation)
he calls himself that to give credence to his views because it is assumed that he would have to have an extensive or deep understanding of islam to be called such.
So honestly there is not one kafir on these boards.
I certainly doesnt mean that all muslims have a deep knowledge of their own religion- many people hae only a superficial and cultural misunderstanding also- there is nothing that gets my ire u more than to hear another muslim use that word in referenence to another.
Many muslims also make this mistake.
But most also know that in the qur'an it is forbidden to accuse a believer in islam of being a non-believer- the person who makes such an accusation automatically becomes what they accuse the other of- a non-believer. This is not something to be taken lightly, and is usually enough to circumvent carelessly made accusations.
But people do what they will, dont they?


So I hope this clarifies somewhat the untrue and often made by orientalists that Muhammad(pbuh) spread islam by the sword. Only studies by yourself would confirm this.
Also islam is not like buddhism or christianity or judaism in that it is named fro a person.
There is no such thing as muhammadism- it goes against the precepts of islam to give it that misnomer- the reason is that the greatest sin in islam is 'shirk' or ascribing partners to ALLAH.
Muslims dont worship Muhammad(pbuh)
We revere and respect him, but most definitely do not worship him.
Like infidel, thatis a christian misunderstanding and misnomer.

Mr Patel is an author. He has a doctorate in sociology and is a rhodes scholar. S i dont imagine anyone could expect hi to stop using his education to support himself and his family.

The Interfaith Youth Core is a non-profit organization and it is not how he makes his money.
Since he makes no money from this enterprise- there is no logic in suggesting that when he stops making money at it , he'll stop.
If that were the case he would have stopped already, and clearly he hasnt.

You know BGONE there actually is a massive education campaign going on in america right now- but its not spreading actual knowledge, but fear and anger through misrepresentation.

This is a side- i have a flyer in front of me right now- everyone gets them advertising packages- they litter all the doorsteps here- the front one has a shabbily dressed scurrilous bearded arab standing in front of a rumpled crappy looking oriental rug on a NY city street with a well known advert fuzzily in the background-
and the copy says "get it before someone tries to sell you a bootleg version (verizon ad)
Since when is it ok to present arabs as thieves and criminals?
watch your tv- when is the last time you saw an ad with an african american committing a pretend crime?

possibly you think this is hypersensitive- but it is becoming increasingly common-
youre right- get the kids while theyre young- indoctrinate them with a flood of images - identify the enemy- and give them video games to desensitize them- and pack the poor ones off to war.

so you said this-

That won't happen without a massive educational program or more of what Muhammadism has made itself famous for recently, terrorism.

So youre calling for a massive education program to make muslims famous for being terroists?
it already being done.

do you really think that serves any kind of purpose except to malign a whole people and make them candidates for persecution and justifies any wars we may make on them?

to me- that is the exact problem.

50 years form now- our grandchildren will be shocked to see how weve campaigned to vilify muslims- just as we are disgusted by our governments treatment of japanese americans during world war II- or the blacklisting of 'communists' during the mccarthy era.

And i actually see just as much prejudice and bias against muslims from non-believers as i do from believers.

you grok?

"Is there any greater violation of the American spirit and the human ethic than to spit on the heritage that somebody considers precious?"

Sacred cows have a history of being slaughtered in America.

Your child's experiences are valid and reflect an unwillingness of parents to see discrimination and correct it. Children will always pick up subtle cues from adults and live them, that is how they learn.

However, much of this non-distinguishing exists because many mainstream muslims have not condemned the attacks or the perpetrators. And those who have are not numerous enough or well-publicized enough to convince the general non-Islam public they hold the mantle for Islam.

There exists a tension, I beleive, between the average muslim's desire for peace in general and his/her desire to see his Faith's territory grow by whatever means. I am a Christian, I feel a similar tension. If I do not support my faith, I feel like either less of a Christian or worse, less of a man. (The difference is my faith was never authorized through its scripture to use force, only ideology and persuation. The crusades should have never happened and reflect a religion hijacked by political forces. [This was the eventual reason the U.S. instituted separation of church and state, as a division of ideological power.])

We have seen no similar widespread abhorrance of violent acts and regret for a past steeped in blood, the way the Christian church now universally regrets its participation in historical atrocities. We (Christians, even just cultural ones) have felt and seen what regret looks like; we don't see it in the faces of mainstream muslims.

I hope that was honest enough to not be incendiary. Both sides need to express honestly their aprehensions with each other before they can be dealt with. While still recognizing the mutual exclusivity of two distinct monotheistic religions, a peace is possible. It hinges on trust and openness, not negotiation. We will never agree, trying to only looks like evangelism/prosilitizing. We can only trust each other, or not.

One strong barrier to this is our history: Islam has grown fastest in times of war, Christianity has grown fastest in times of being persecuted. Both sides haven't grown quickest in peacetime. (It is easy to see war as a defensive manuever, and trigger the same feeling of being persecuted while actually being the aggressor. American rhetoric in wartime always shows the enemy as agressor, this triggers survivalism in all people, but also a sense of history to the average christian-ish person in
America.) All this makes a bit of inter-religion codependance that every policymaker should recognize, it affects their reality.

In peacetime, both justice and freedom must be present for our two religions to coexist comfortably in one society. I hope that happens.

-Mike Isaacson
Tacoma, WA

VICTORIA:

Guess we're forced to rewrite the history books. The ones I studied said Muhammad couldn't pay people to be Muslims, only way it spread was by force, "death to infidels." Of course there are the children. Get'em while they're still to young to think.

It only takes one generation of "gun to head" to get the fire started. Once started, the fire can only be put out by a river of blood. John Brown's famous statement about slavery fits religions, all religions equally well. The sin is too great for water alone.

When Christians stop putting money on the plate it will no longer be passed. When Mr Patel stops making money at what he's doing he'll find another way to make a living. Take the money, what money represents, power etc away and it will go away, all by itself. That won't happen without a massive educational program or more of what Muhammadism has made itself famous for recently, terrorism. Education is water, terrorism blood. In the mean time there will be predjudice against religion in general by the religious more than the non religious.

paganplace- there isnt anything in the quran that compels a muslim to croak emslave or try to forcibly convert you.
anywhere - i assume (though possibly wrongly) that you are of a wiccan flavor?
you know there are white and black hearts-

however i really will carry a conversation and assure you - you and your beliefs are not subject to coercive conversion (it doesnt exist in islam)
sorry- its really true-
its not allowed- its actually exhorted against-
the qur'an actually says there is no compulsion in religion-

but i didnt want to say that- i noticed you stated that there was one muslim in your town-
i was the only muslim in my town in september of 2001- ill share more tomorrow about it if it continues to be friendly in here

peace

Now, for perspective: I've got no real love for Islam. Unlike for Christians and Jews, there actually *is* stuff in the Koran and historical precedent that says good Muslims should croak, enslave, or try to forcibly convert me, so they're as scary to me in the abstract as the Christians who like Bible verses that say much the same thing.

But people are not books. People are not 'sin,' and they sure as *ahem* aren't all as bad as they paint themselves and each other out to be.

I remember after 9/11, when pretty much the only Muslim in a town which I saw, myself as 'full of rednecks' ...was the guy who owned the corner store. (OK, cliche, but it was real,) well, the next time I went to that store, I was like, 'Hey, is anyone giving you a hard time? I have limited crew to call on, but..."

He was like, 'Everyone says that, actually, we're feeling pretty safe.'

It's not that there aren't real and justifiable (and documentable) worries on the part of Muslim Americans, for their kids, for their safety, for their freedoms...

But also, those voices *calling* for intolerance, I think, underestimate just how American most folks in some places really are. (Ok, so it was a very 'blue state') But,

I think, whatever your creed, this is a matter of American honor.

Terrorism is more rightly, and demonstrably, a police matter than a 'war' that one can posture with big guns and big religion about.

Careful what you teach your kids.

Cause the 'terrorists,' if they *do* 'hate our freedom' will *win* if they can make us dismantle our *own* freedom with a bomb, or a gun, or a boxcutter.

Or make us believe that this *is* a clash of 'saved' vs 'unsaved' (pick your brand and have at it) ....instead of about our common world being hijacked by men with war, money, and power on their minds.

I say that this is not a 'clash of civilizations.'

This is about *civilization.* Want it? Or not?

We need a more mature point of view about it.

islamophobia is the new mccarthyism in america, and its the new approved racism.

if this forum continues to be friendly i will share some of my experiences as far as persecution in america-

one of my dearest friends in chicago has a son named oussama- theyre algerian and hes just a 10 year old kid- he has received many beatings taunts and threats but hes a tough kid and fights back-

he has a fit when someone mispronounces his name-
hes very adamant about it- its oo-sam-a(short a)
not o-sah-ma- american is the onlyhome hes ever known and its difficult to try to counter his anger and remind him to be a peaceful kid-(which he is naturally)
its hard to make a little kid understand that he always has to be the patient one- and to see hatred and prejudice for what it is without it poisoning his own soul-

the fact that the usa is actively killing brown and muslim people in another land- and muslims there are the 'enemy' maks it a more dangerous discrimination than the ones previously held against irish or jews or even blacks-
bcuse the message we get every single day is that its ok to torture muslims- its ok to bereak down their doors and drag them off and shoot them- or shoot them in their mosques while they pray-

its okay to hate and kill them- do it before they do it to you!

is there anyone here who is currently living in a justified fear that a muslim is going to enter their home and kill them?

but muslims 'over there' experience this every day-

and while moderate muslim voices are simply ignored- islamophobia is preached and presented as a reasonable hatred- an american sentiment-

thanks for listening

Well, Christian Reader: one of the roots of religious intolerance really does come from this idea:

"There are ignorant and evil people in every social milieu, every epoch, every church/mosque/temple -- it's part of the human condition, and a Christian would say, evidence of original sin, and the inadequacy of human institutions to absolve it."

If you believe that (some) people are essentially evil and that only one professedly above-human institution (pick your brand) can deal with it, well, that's the world you're likely to get when you're not looking.

Dear eboo:

My name suggest that I am a muslim and I am very proud of my heritage, I know you are too.

my only concern about your post is that " you have accepted the facts that were thrown by the media at their face value and you have fallen for it. Maybe be the people who the media said but never proven were all of the same heritage you and i belong to, but how come you take and accept the ownership of that event/s."

A very simple example how hard would that be for any muslim nation to recruit any christians by offering a big chunk of money to commit a henious crime and blame it all on CHRISTTIANITY and make it a pretext for war/discrimination/whatever name you can come up with. The problem we have today is all a poorly cooked up stew which is being served to us and the chefs are having a ball. No muslim is ever responsible for what happened and what is happening today, if someone is reposible it would be the chefs and they know where to buy their produces, and btw nowadays the seasons is for ISLAMIC, the media is being subsidies and free publicity if you add the word ISLAMIC/IST to any product/incident.

Best regards and Allah has blessed America all along that is why we are living in the country and raising our families here, may HE continue to shower his BEST BLESSINGS on AMERICA for having us all enjoy th e freedom of relegion, and are all practicing our relegion freely which is even harder to practice in our own muslim lands. GOD BLESS AMERICA.

Halozcel,

I don't know who you are speaking for, or on what autority, in your original post but it is not me! Even despite that fact that I rank as high as number two on your list. Just disgusting!

I am a fiercly patriotic American and can assure you that your racist ramblings are not only unfounded they are unfactual and shameful!

Thank you Nicholas Price for your posting of parts of the Constitution.

Halozcel should not be singled out here, we could all use a reminder of what it is we should believe as Americans.

Eboo - Your post saddens me in ways I cannot properly express, although a few of the comments here contain that small spark of hope that you've long been vigilant in nurturing. I often use you and your work as an anecdote, as a point against which, as a metric by which, as a thing I can point at, and in pointing, instruct. We all teach in our own ways, but you remind me, yet again, that pointing often isn't enough.

To Nicholas Price and Christian Reader,many thank for your posts.

First of all,what I try to explain is respect,I mean if you dont respect someones belief,you have no right to expect respect.
Islam doesnt respect christinity but muslims demand respect from christians,that is what I mean.I dont advocate anything or any religion,I just give an example.If you want respect,you shall respect.Do you agree?
If you want respect to son of bedouin,you shall respect son of jew.correct?
If you want respect to illiterate gamel driver,you shall respect trinity.is it correct?

Second matter.God loves all people.It is a nice word,but unfortunately empty word.It doesnt fit to historical realities.Your god loves you,his god loves him and their god loves them.First temple dates 10000 BC,in Turkey gobekli tepe.That means humanity has been believing since 12000 years.During that times,no god existed who loves all peoples,including ancient gods Amon Ra,An,Teshup,Zeus and his son apollo and present important gods,
God of christians and His Son love those who baptised and those who follow the Lamb.Whoever is baptised will be saved Mark 16.16.Whoever believes him shall not perish.John 3.16.his CHOSEN ones Luke 18.7
Allah of Islam loves muslims and hates from non muslims and loves those who follow illiterate gamel driver.
Brahman of Hindus loves those who swim in ganj river.
God of Jacob.

Third matter.If you read my first post carefully,Juridical Equality is absolutely written,so I completely agree juridical equality.But,two women equals one man,man can take four women,Timothy 2.12,women can not divorce her husband.Timothy 6.1,man can scourge woman.Are these what Jefferson said?Shall you not critisize those and not try to correct those?Are these human rights and freedom?

My classification is completely Realist,not racist and I dont hate anyone else.What I write is unfortunately correct.Yes,unfortunately correct.What you write are not answer to my first post.

Life is not unfortunately Cotton Princess Tale.

Growing up Jewish, I had to deal with years of hatred, bullying, and taunting. I was even the target of a couple of members of the KKK. As an adult, I heard scores of comments and jokes aimed at Jews, while those around knew nothing about my religion. As no consequence of my earlier problems, I am now a Christian. And guess what? I now get hatred and taunting aimed at my Christian beliefs.

For all the talk of the freedoms in America, you'd think we'd be free from the hatred that uneducation and stubbornness breed in this country. The intolerance of people makes me so sad; at least I still have my freedom of religion to take comfort in.

Mubaraki on the expectancy. My tangentially related thoughts here:
http://www.islamicate.com/islamicate/2007/03/my_god_hates_mo.html

I remember being called some very unpleasant names growing up Chinese in a very white suburban American town. Those names defaced our home one Halloween. I, too, remember wishing I wasn't Chinese at all, and at least wishing that we had a different last name. There are ignorant and evil people in every social milieu, every epoch, every church/mosque/temple -- it's part of the human condition, and a Christian would say, evidence of original sin, and the inadequacy of human institutions to absolve it.

Harassment in schools in general is a problem, and harassment against unpopular minorities has been a problem every time there's been an immigration wave, but harassment against Muslim children or brown children is a problem in America particular to our time. While Irish, Italian, Jewish, or Japanese immigrants were able over time to overcome stigmas through their mere lasting presence, terrorism in the name of Islam is probably here to stay for some long time, making the battle for Muslims in America to fight hatred much more difficult. It's particularly disturbing to me that teachers do not appear to take this problem seriously, both as a protection to those most vulnerable, and for the sake of their students' character growth. I also can't help wondering what these childrens' parents are teaching them.

So thank you for your very articulate essay in the midst of such a challenge, and may your words be heard far and wide.

As a believing Christian, I also want to say that I am appalled by the poster who chose to write so hatefully in the first response, in the name of God. In the name of Jesus, may he find clarity, repentance, and the Truth.

Dear Eboo,
Thank you again for posting, especially on this issue of religious and ethnic discrimination. And I also want to thank you for the following comment:

"Something profoundly un-American is happening in America: the irrational fear and hatred of a group of people because of an aspect of their identity. People are taking the criminals of this community and superimposing their image on every other member, including children. Somehow, my Muslim baby will look like Osama bin Laden to millions of Americans."

In the past couple of days that I have been reading through the various posts on this website and the comments to follow, and I am finding this disturbing trend rise time and again. I hear people not simply saying that they choose not to believe in one faith tradition or another, but that these faith traditions should be eradicated from the earth. It is highly alarming that charges of extremism are thrown at religious people of all stripes, while similarly extremist comments are seen as acceptable because they come from a secular or irreligious source.

If one was to apply the same measure to atheistic ideologies as many of these detractors are applying to religion, then some of the worst atrocities in the 20th century were committed not by religious groups, but by secular systems. Stalin's Russia killed millions, and Chairman Mao's China millions more. Neither one of these groups were religious in nature, in fact they both espoused the same fear and distaste of religion that many of the commentators on this site have demonstrated. I am sorry, my friend, that you have had to bear such a great degree of this criticism and I am sorry to the other thoughtful panelists who have experienced much the same.

Eboo, I know you. You are a good man with a generous heart and I wish that some of the people on this website would see that. Take heart and do not stop what you are doing. The interfaith work being done by the IFYC is of great benefit to all communities, both religious and secular, American and international.

TO HALOZCEL:
Though your grammer is hard to understand, I am going to do my best to respond to your comments. First and foremost, I suggest you start listening to the Christian faith tradition that you so readily denounce Eboo for disrespecting. It should not matter whether a person is an American or not, or a Christian or not, Christ commands love, respect, and care for all people.

In his parable of the good Samaritan, he speaks of a Samaritan man caring for a Jewish man who was robbed and left to die on the side of a road. When the so-called "righteous" of the Jewish community passed up one of their own, the Samaritan sacrificed his wealth and gave his time and energy to caring for this man in need. What makes this parable all the more powerful is that it is not simply about being nice, it is about showing love and respect in spite of years of conflict and persecution.

A simple study of the relationship between Jews and Samaritans at the time shows that the interactions between these two groups were tense at best and violent at worst. Outbreaks of violence between the two groups have been documented from the 1st century BCE through the 1st century CE. There was blood between these two groups and prejudice and hatred towards the other could be found in both communities. So, for this Samaritan to care for this Jewish man would have been a powerful testament to what it meant to "love your neighbor as yourself" according to Jesus (Lk. 10:27). Have Christians failed to live up to this? Sadly, yes we have. However, the teaching of Christ is clear; to love one's neighbor is to go beyond your own people group and realize that each person is created in the image of God and therefore worthy of respect and love.

Furthermore, even the Old Testament speaks of the importance of caring for those who are different from yourself. Leviticus 19:34 states that "The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God." There is a constant reminder throughout the books of the Law that just as God had mercy on us, we should have mercy on and show love towards others. I suggest you take this to heart when you consider your views towards those who are different from you, particularly in regard to religion and ethnicity.

Finally, there is no place for your racist categorizations of people in the Christian worldview. Consider well John's vision in which he tells us, "After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. And they cried out in a loud voice: 'Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb'" (Revelation 7:9-10). Here we see that God's kingdom is a multiracial, multiethnic kingdom. So I would suggest you start reading the story about the God you claim to respect.

Now, in the off chance that I have misunderstood you, and you are not claiming any sort of higher status on religious grounds, let me make something clear from your "superior American" context. Our own Declaration of Independence states that, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their Creator, with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness." This ethic of equality has been further codified in our Constitution:
Amendment 1: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Amendment 13: Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
Amendment 14: All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Amendment 15: The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude--
Amendment 19: The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex.

So if the religious arguments above do not speak to your sympathies, then allow the law of the land to correct your intolerance.

Now I readily acknowledge that my arguments above may have caused some frustration or anger on your part. You are free to dialogue with me about these, but I suggest that before you do so, think through what you want to say and be prepared to defend it. I do not mind a difference of opinion and I can respect those who disagree, but what I cannot abide is someone who attacks another out of fear and ignorance.

Sincerely,

Nicholas Price

I was raised Roman Catholic. My wife and I have several muslim families that are close friends. Your child will have to face ignorance and intolerance. While America has a tradition of independence of the individual and freedom, it also has a tradition of the ingnorance of bigotry. You are not alone in your struggle to open minds.