You mean to say that if they(Shaykh Hamza and Imam Malik) deny the holocaust then they are with Al-Qaeda- Which really is the same as being an anti-Semite? I heard that Moses was Black so these people are also Anti-Black. Before purging anti-Semite Muslim scholars better work on the locals confusion about Santa and Jesus.I am no fan of scholars of any kind but I can see what ails America. If you people out there can't figure it out then truly there is none so blind as those who WILL not see.

Very interestingm there should be more muslims speaking out like this.
Steve

I completely agree - that there is no place in Islam for antisemitism or any kind of prejudice. As I have understood - Islam doesnt exhort its followers to hate or judge anyone based on their beliefs. Its the actions of followers of other beliefs and of Muslims as well are fair game. I just don't want this drive for instilling the sense of fairness and objectiveness in minds turns into an apologetic attitude towards zionists and Israel's attrocities towards arabs of the region in general and Palestinians in particular. What we need to do is exhort our muslims brethren to be fair and objective in their judgements and actions. They have to condemn the attrocities comitted by muslims in Darfur, Sudan as vehemently as we would the attrocites comitted by Israel against the Palestinians.

Here is an article from a Pakistani columnist in which the author makes similar comments.

http://www.dawn.com/weekly/mazdak/20070812.htm

I commend, welcome and respect your point of view which you so eloquently and cogently presented. Nevertheless, over the last decade, I have seen scant evidence of its traction among Muslims, here in the United States or elsewhere.

As a non-Muslim, I have no way of knowing what is in someone's heart. I can only observe their behavior. What I observe is Muslim silence in the face of vicious antisemitic attacks, verbal and physical, upon Jews. By remaining silent, the silent majority to whom you refer ratifies and condones the acts of a small but still operationally significant minority.

Inaction as well as action can result in moral culpability.By their silence, the majority to whom you refer become complicit in the atrocious behavior of the minority. If the majority of Germans had objected, Hitler and his cronies could never have carried out the Holocaust.

In a free society, remaining silent is a choice. It is the choice still being made today by mostAmerican Muslims. It is the wrong choice;it is the choice which implicates them in the acts of their fanatic and intolerant co-religionists. I hope the efforts of people of good will such as yourself will help others find their humanity and compassion; a task still largely uncompleted.

I commend, welcome and respect your point of view which you so eloquently and cogently presented. Nevertheless, over the last decade, I have seen scant evidence of its traction among Muslims, here in the United States or elsewhere.

As a non-Muslim, I have no way of knowing what is in someone's heart. I can only observe their behavior. What I observe is Muslim silence in the face of vicious antisemitic attacks, verbal and physical, upon Jews. By remaining silent, the silent majority to whom you refer ratifies and condones the acts of a small but still operationally significant minority.

Inaction as well as action can result in moral culpability.By their silence, the majority to whom you refer become complicit in the atrocious behavior of the minority. If the majority of Germans had objected, Hitler and his cronies could never have carried out the Holocaust.

In a free society, remaining silent is a choice. It is the choice still being made today by mostAmerican Muslims. It is the wrong choice;it is the choice which implicates them in the acts of their fanatic and intolerant co-religionists. I hope the efforts of people of good will such as yourself will help others find their humanity and compassion; a task still largely uncompleted.

It's sad that few of these postings state the essential, fundamental truth about Islam, Judaism and Christianity:
Members of all three groups indulge in the intellectually indefensible, baseless belief in a magical, invisible friend.
Small children have a right to engage in such pitiful fantasies, but so-called adults have an obligation to use reason, to judge evidence carefully and skeptically, and not to indulge in such infantile beliefs. I urge you all to grow up and face reality.
There are no magical, invisible friends. There is not a magical, invisible part of yourself that lives forever. There are no magical, invisible places for the imaginary, magical, invisible part of yourself to go. Death is the permanent end of experience for all people.
If you can't handle these facts, then go cry to to mommy.

Islamaphobes,

Here is a good article that highlights what should be the focus of the Islamaphobes: the Israeli Lobby that is pushing us over the edge of the abyss. Here are some excerpts:

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=26308§ionid=3510302

‘In my analysis, which is shared, for example, by Ilan Pappe, Israel's leading “revisionist” (which means honest) historian, the answer is that it's mainly the Zionist tail that wags the American dog. As I demonstrate in my epic, two-volume book, Zionism: The Real Enemy of The Jews, it is a fact that, with the arguable exception of Lyndon Johnson, every American President, including the idiot in the White House at present, tried to draw red lines that Israel should not cross; and on most occasions Israel put two fingers up and crossed them. There is no mystery about why the Zionist lobby (AIPAC plus) has such power. What passes for democracy in America is for sale to the highest bidder, and one of the highest bidders, and certainly the best organized and the most effective, is the Zionist lobby, now in association with Christian evangelical fundamentalism and parts if not all of the MIC (Military Industrial Complex). The Zionist lobby has three main weapons of influence:

- money, apparently unlimited, to fund election campaigns (candidates who offend Zionism can be and are destroyed - outspent);

- the organized Jewish vote in close election races (in half a dozen critical constituencies); and

- the use of the obscenity of the Nazi Holocaust as a blackmail card to silence criticism of Israel and suppress informed and honest debate. (On this front the Zionist lobby is assisted by the fact that, out of fear of offending Zionism, the mainstream media in America and throughout the mainly Gentile Judeo-Christian or Western world is complicit in Zionism's suppression of the truth of history. What, really, does the media fear? Punishment by the withdrawal of advertising revenue).’

Anti semitism is ugly. Anti Zionism and anti Israel is a valid political and ideological position. One should not confuse the two. Arabs are Semitics too, as are Jews. Semitics are a race, not a religion.

Anti semitism is ugly. Anti Zionism and anti Israel is a valid political and ideological position. One should not confuse the two. Arabs are Semitics too, as are Jews. Semitics are a race, not a religion.

Anti semitism is ugly. Anti Zionism and anti Israel is a valid political and ideological position. One should not confuse the two. Arabs are Semitics too, as are Jews. Semitics are a race, not a religion.

I Am speechless!!!!

Jewish Racism towards Non-Jews as expressed in the Talmud

"The modern Jew is the product of the Talmud..."
"Babylonian Talmud", published by the Boston Talmud Society, p. XII

The Jews refer to the remainder of Earths inhabitants, the non-Jewish peoples, as "Gentiles", "Goyim". Let's see what the Jewish Talmud teaches the Jews concerning the non-Jewish majority, i.e. those who are not part of Jahve's "Chosen People":

"The Jews are called human beings, but the non-Jews are not humans. They are beasts."

Talmud: Baba mezia, 114b

"The Akum (non-Jew) is like a dog. Yes, the scripture teaches to honor the the dog more than the non-Jew."

Ereget Raschi Erod. 22 30

"Even though God created the non-Jew they are still animals in human form. It is not becoming for a Jew to be served by an animal. Therfore he will be served by animals in human form."

Midrasch Talpioth, p. 255, Warsaw 1855

"A pregnant non-Jew is no better than a pregnant animal."

Coschen hamischpat 405

"The souls of non-Jews come from impure sprits and are called pigs."

Jalkut Rubeni gadol 12b

"Although the non-Jew has the same body structure as the Jew, they compare with the Jew like a monkey to a human."

Schene luchoth haberith, p. 250 b

"If you eat with a Gentile, it is the same as eating with a dog."

Tosapoth, Jebamoth 94b

"If a Jew has a non-Jewish servant or maid who dies, one should not express sympathy to the Jew. You should tell the Jew: "God will replace 'your loss', just as if one of his oxen or asses had died"."

Jore dea 377, 1

"Sexual intercourse between Gentiles is like intercourse between animals."

Talmud Sanhedrin 74b

"It is permitted to take the body and the life of a Gentile."

Sepher ikkarim III c 25

"It is the law to kill anyone who denies the Torah. The Christians belong to the denying ones of the Torah."

Coschen hamischpat 425 Hagah 425. 5

"A heretic Gentile you may kill outright with your own hands."

Talmud, Abodah Zara, 4b

"Every Jew, who spills the blood of the godless (non-Jews), is doing the same as making a sacrifice to God."

Talmud: Bammidber raba c 21 & Jalkut 772

By the way, here's the article in Skeptics magazine:

http://www.skeptics.com.au/journal/1998/3_crexpose.htm

Here is an excerpt:

…Richard Dawkins is the Charles Simonyi Professor of the Public Understanding of Science at Oxford University. He is one of the world's leading evolutionary biologists, the author of several highly regarded books on evolution through natural selection, including The Selfish Gene, The Blind Watchmaker (to my mind, the very best explanation of evolution for the lay person), The Extended Phenotype, River out of Eden and Climbing Mount Improbable, and is constantly in demand as a public speaker, and by the media as an advocate for good science.

Given his position and his professional expertise, it is hardly surprising, then, that he is also a cogent and trenchant critic of the anti-scientific dogma that masquerades under the title "creation science"…

…Prof Dawkins then acquired a copy of the tape and became even more incensed as the details of what had been done to him became clearer. In correspondence to me (published here with his permission) he recounts what had happened:

As a preamble, I should explain that, following the advice of my colleague Stephen Jay Gould, I have a policy of not granting interviews to creationists or flat earthers. This is not because I cannot answer their arguments, but because I have better things to do with my time and I do not want to give them the oxygen of publicity.

On September 16, 1997, Keziah Video Productions, in the persons of Gillian Brown and Geoffrey Smith, came to my house in Oxford to film an interview with me. I had agreed to see them, on the misapprehension (as it later turned out) that they were from a respectable Australian broadcasting company. I had no idea they were a creationist front and I would not have granted them an interview had I known this, because of my policy as mentioned above.

The interview began. I have considerable experience of television work, and I was initially surprised at the amateurishness of their filming technique, but I carried on without voicing my surprise. As the interview proceeded, I became increasingly puzzled at the tone of the questions. Puzzlement gave way to suspicion that Keziah was, in fact, a creationist front which had gained admittance to my house under false pretences.

The suspicion increased sharply when I was challenged to produce an example of an evolutionary process which increases the information content of the genome. It is a question that nobody except a creationist would ask. A real biologist finds it an easy question to answer (the answer is that natural selection increases the information content of the genome all the time - that is precisely what natural selection means), but, from an evolutionary point of view, it is not an interesting way to put it. It would only be phrased that way by somebody who doubts that evolution happened.

Now I was faced with a dilemma. I was almost certain that these people had gained admittance to my house under false pretences - in other words, I had been set up. On the other hand, I am a naturally courteous person, especially in my own house, and these were guests from overseas. What should I do? I paused for a long time, trying to decide whether to throw them out, and, I have to admit, struggling not to lose my temper. Finally, I decided that I would ask them to leave, but I would do it in a polite way, explaining to them why. I then asked them to stop the tape, which they did.

The tape having stopped, I explained to them my suspicions, and asked them to leave my house. Gillian Brown pleaded with me, saying that she had flown all the way from Australia especially to interview me. She begged me not to send her home empty handed, after they had traveled such a long way. She assured me that they were not creationists, but were taking a balanced view of all sides in the debate. Like a fool, I took pity on her, and agreed to continue. I remember that, having had quite an acrimonious argument with her, when I finally agreed to resume the interview I made a conscious effort to be extra polite and friendly…

Here is another version of the video clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-WFIVIQiTo

Victoria,

I think that you have been had. The YouTube video was a fake. Here is the question that was asked:

‘Can you give an example of a genetic mutation or an evolutionary process which can be seen to increase the information in the genome?’

Here is a link to Dawkins website in which responds to the hoax:

http://www.richarddawkins.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=14255

Here is his reply:

New version of Australian Fake Film by Richard Dawkins on Wed May 09, 2007 7:58 pm

Some of our regulars may be aware of the Australian hoax film in which I am shown apparently flummoxed and unable to answer a question about 'information content' increasing in evolution. Somebody has just pointed me to a new version of the clip on YouTube…, which is interestingly different from the published version.

A full account of the hoax is given by Barry Williams, in the (Australian) Skeptic. I don't have the reference with me (I'm in Miami Airport, on my way to Galapagos) but it is given in the chapter of A Devil's Chaplain, called The Information Challenge. Briefly, the long pause occurred when I tumbled to the fact that the film-makers were creationists, and I had been tricked into allowing them an interview. I was trying to decide how to handle the difficult diplomatic situation. Should I throw them out immediately? Should I answer the question? Should I stop the interview and discuss their dishonesty with them before deciding whether to allow the interview to continue? I eventually took the third option. It later turned out that they used the long pause to make it look as though I was unable to answer the question. At the end of the long pause, they cut to a scene of me talking about something completely different (presumably the answer to another question which was cut), to make it look as though I was evading the question by changing the subject.

In the original film, 'From a Frog to a Prince', the 'information content' question is put to me by a MAN. We see him in a bare room, very obviously not the well-furnished room in which I am shown (not) answering the question. The new version on YouTube is different in at least two respects. First, the question is put to me by a WOMAN (we don't see her). And while she is speaking I am obviously not listening to anybody asking questions (I would be looking straight at the questioner if so) but I am clearly lost in thought, the same long train of thought that persists for a long time after the question ends (intended to look embarrassingly long, as if I am incapable of answering the question).

There is another difference. In this new version of the film, I ask them to stop the camera (and this really happened, for the reason given above). Then there is the cut to me answering the completely different question, as if trying to change the subject. In the original film, my request to stop the camera is missing.

I've got to go and board the plane, but it might be quite interesting for somebody to post both versions of the film together on our website, so they can be compared directly.

Must rush

Hi Victoria,

Thanks for the links. I think that you misunderstood my comment. I did not say or imply that Islam is opposed in any way to science. I was merely pointing out that the many scientists (and others) who apply the scientific method and reasoning to the question of the origin of life and the universe are doomed to burn in everlasting hell according to:

'And (as to) those who disbelieve in and reject My communications, they are the inmates of the fire, in it they shall abide' (002.039).

This is not a slam at only Islam but the Judeo-Christian and other religions as well who hold similar beliefs.

And surely you don’t mean to imply that the 30 seconds or so that Dawkins paused in answering the question that was put to him about the genome in any way shows that the theory of evolution is incorrect.

Peace.

here is a 3 minute video from the same show that has richard dawkins stumped and speechleess when asked a quesiton about evolution

(hes the king of evolution theory)

hes also a panelist that posts on these boards here- i only had peripheral knowledge of him before i came to these boards-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaKryi3605g&mode=related&search=

its only 3 minutes long

peace

actually -i should have read that link a little more before posting it-

but heres a link im famliar with and love-
harun yahya rocks

i live in queens and queens publctv has a show on every sunday around 12-1ish? from harun yahya

hes a turkish philosopher and scinetist- he was given years of grief from the secularist government (he was exiled for many years) so much for secular free thought,eh?
http://www.harunyahya.com/

here is last weeks show-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5sfHz3xyNc&mode=related&search=

The Muslim world has seen many women in power, whom Moroccan author Fatimah Mernissi refers to as “The Forgotten Queens of Islam”. Whether it was the Fatimide Queen Sitt al-Mulk in the 11th century Egypt or Razia Sultana in 13th century India, Muslim queens governed from their thrones, presiding over meetings with their advisors and with their faces uncovered, as is shown in paintings from those times.

From the times of the early Arab Ummayads and Abbasides to the Persian Safavids, the Indian Moghuls and the Turkish Ottomans, never have Muslim women been forced by decree to cover their faces as an act of religiosity and piety.

Tying religiosity and piety to face coverings is a THWENTIETH CENTURY PHENOMENON created by the Wahabbis in Saudi Arabia. Today, due to Saudi Arabia’s oil wealth, and their funding of Islamic schools around the world (including Canada), they’re managing to impose their irrational cult on Muslims in the western world. And this oppressive kingdom has the unstinting support of the United States!

The Wahabbis are operating in defiance of what Muslims have known, taught and believed for hundreds of years. They’re ignoring our Muslim heritage. They’re targeting young Muslim women. The Wahabbis want everyone to believe that women should accept a second-class status. And they want women to believe that this segregationist ideology is something they’ve chosen for themselves.

ive listened to conutless muslimahs talking about their grandmothers and aunts telling stories about how appalled they would be to see women going backwards in this century-

i had a great link on lists of quick histories of muslim owmen rulers throughout history-
way back in history-but i lost all my links recently-
i also had a great store of islam and scientific acheivement-

RICK- no way is there any disharmony between islam and science-
the first hospital was started by a muslim (Ibn-Sina) known in the west as avicenna- undisputed father of sceintific method and medicine
the first university in the world was started by muslims- wothout them the entire renaissance could not have taken place.

ill go find a quick link-

this is the first link on the page-
http://www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/jellyfish/347/Islamic_Medicine.html

i didnt even try- there many many many

Victoria,

I have now finished Chapter 2. I continue find it very similar to the Judeo-Christian OT, with its stories of Adam and Eve in the Garden (of bliss instead of Eden), Moses, the Exodus from Egypt, Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, David and Goliath.

'And (as to) those who disbelieve in and reject My communications, they are the inmates of the fire, in it they shall abide' (002.039). (This is the most troubling for me so far; i.e. that honest skeptics who believe only what the natural universe reveals to scientifically inquiring minds are doomed to burn in everlasting hell. This is no different than the Judeo-Christian philosophy, but disturbing none the less.)

The Children of Israel are favored of Allah and excel all nations (002.047). (Similar to the OT and reminiscent of the Zionist Jews claim to be the Chosen People and Palestine is their Promised Land.)

'Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve' (002.062). (Islam is an inclusive faith and maintains that true believers of all faiths (Muslims, Jews, Christians, Sabians) in the one God, Allah, will have their reward in Heaven, or the Garden of Bliss.)

'Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors' (002.190). (As you often state, Islam is basically a religion of peace, but does reserve the right to defend itself.)

I’m sure that I will get to the controversial stuff that all the critics keep posting on soon enough, but so far so good.

Quick question Victoria,

How many Muslim woman have set themselves on fire in the last two years?

Quick question Victoria,

How many Muslim woman have been murdered by family members in the last two years?

quick question lib- how many muslim women have been rulers over nations over the last 2 millenia?

Ready for Mrs. Clinton??? Hmmm, not really. Too much baggage and Arab males don't like ambitious women in general so they will treat her as some lesser being which is not good for foreign relations. Well Billy Boy treated her the same way so at least she has significant experience in that regard. Maybe she should make that part of her campaign. Better yet she should dump Billy to show her resolve in being her own person. Why mess up two bedrooms every night anyway.

Viva La France!!!

Yep, and after 7 disastrous years of our Dear Leader and World Class Hypocrite, it is resonating pretty well with the fed up American people.

Are you ready for Hillary?

Rick,

You type like some Democratic Party sound bite.

CTCNL,

And what is the root cause of:

‘The conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic train bombers in the UK and Spain, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers , the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases’

It couldn’t be the criminal land and oil field grabs in Palestine and Iraq by the world’s foremost terrorist state US_Israel could it?

Victoria, Victoria,

Hmmm, you mentioned Islamic stereotypes.

Unfortunately, Muslims are rightly projected as believers in a warmongering, womanizing, and hallucinating false prophet. And these contemporary believers continue to follow his agenda of pillaging and plundering the lands of the infidels as shown by:

The conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic train bombers in the UK and Spain, the significantly uneducated Taliban, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers , the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani koranics, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases and the Filipino koranics.

And who funds these acts of terror? Islamic Iran, the Third Axis of Evil and also the Islamic "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

When the suicide bombings etc. stop and when Iran and the "Wannabees" learn to live peacefully via a rewrite of the koran, the current and correct projections of a typical Muslim will then change. Nothing else will suffice!!!!!

hi lib- are you mental???

people in afghanistan have computers too-

i have spoken with muslims in afghanistan on a blog for muslims around the world- we exchange ideas and local political perspectives and a variety of social issues in this world-

on cnn i think it was on sunday i watched an excellent program about afghani women- (the reporter was a muslim woman)

it started out devastating- focusing on the young women there who have been setting themselves on fire to call attention to the abuses they are facing by family members-

people can be cruel and stupid lib.

its not based on qu'ran or islam, but millenia of barbaric and tribal traditions.

there was a young poet who was killed by her husband, and he only spent a dismal 5 months in prison - for killing his wife!

the second half focused on what changes are being made- schooling for girls is paramount- but also the changes in the mentalities of the leaders and men who are the perpertrators of the injustices and crimes.

that is why i advocate the women in black group-
they gather on wednesdays in new york here- and call to witness the plight of women being subjugated around the world by violence.
(not only muslim women)

dont foment stupid stereotypes lib- how does that help anyone anywhere?

chapter 14 rick-

i welcome your fresh perspective rick- certainly you'll come up with new interpretations and that can only lead me to examine my own faith ever more dynamically.

ive been on postglobal- its amazing the difference in tone and perspective.

what is anonymous waiting for?

peace and goodbye!!

I am waiting Victoria

Victoria and her buddy Rickie,

Coming and going as you please?? Hmmm, fortunately you do not live in Afghanistan.

May your "pwtfft" keep you in a good fast and a fast party this evening.

Ted Baines and Anon,

My opinion, for what it is worth, is that our openness to different ideas is the source of our strength. We should not be in the business of limiting immigration, or expelling people as you have suggested, based on peoples’ religious beliefs.

I think that as we evolve, as time goes on, the position of the atheist/agnostic and scientific thought will naturally win out over religious beliefs, especially those of the obviously ridiculous extremists.

You may think that this is dangerous liberal sentiment, but I agree with the Hermit; the closed minded bigotry of the right wing nut jobs is far more dangerous.

PS:

Thanks Deb Chatterjee for the link to the Qur’an, http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/. Now I can read along with Victoria and quiz her on difficult passages. I just finished Chapter 1. It seemed innocuous enough. Which chapter are you on Victoria? When does the Ramadan end?

Salaam

Ah yes, here is CTCNL, with his usual predictable attack on Islam and all religion.

What is on your petty little mind today CTCNL.

"no one wants to stay on topic so peace and bye"

"hi again here i am coming and going as i please"

Victoria:

When you continuously make irrational or intentionally deceiving statements: You become this forum's poster child for everything untrustworthy about ISLAM.

Please read:

POLL INDICATES NEGATIVE OPINIONS OF ISLAM RISING IN U.S.

"The number of Americans who said Islam has little or nothing in common with their own religion has risen to 70 percent, from 59 percent two years ago, the poll found."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-relig_26sep26,1,2405534.story

As more Americans learn about Islam’s core beliefs and their history (past and present): more people are negative about Islam.

How does the haddith you qouted coincide with the haddith below? Also you have not answered the question about who decides what haddith are good?

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

back from my morning reading-

this is a nice hadith about 2 israelis and the faith in the god that is so pure and absolute

Volume 3, Book 37, Number 488h:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "An Israeli man asked another Israeli to lend him one thousand Dinars. The second man required witnesses. The former replied, 'Allah is sufficient as a witness.' The second said, 'I want a surety.' The former replied, 'Allah is sufficient as a surety.' The second said, 'You are right,' and lent him the money for a certain period. The debtor went across the sea. When he finished his job, he searched for a conveyance so that he might reach in time for the repayment of the debt, but he could not find any. So, he took a piece of wood and made a hole in it, inserted in it one thousand Dinars and a letter to the lender and then closed (i.e. sealed) the hole tightly. He took the piece of wood to the sea and said. 'O Allah! You know well that I took a loan of one thousand Dinars from so-and-so. He demanded a surety from me but I told him that Allah's Guarantee was sufficient and he accepted Your guarantee. He then asked for a witness and I told him that Allah was sufficient as a Witness, and he accepted You as a Witness. No doubt, I tried hard to find a conveyance so that I could pay his money but could not find, so I hand over this money to You.' Saying that, he threw the piece of wood into the sea till it went out far into it, and then he went away. Meanwhile he started searching for a conveyance in order to reach the creditor's country.

One day the lender came out of his house to see whether a ship had arrived bringing his money, and all of a sudden he saw the piece of wood in which his money had been deposited. He took it home to use for fire. When he sawed it, he found his money and the letter inside it. Shortly after that, the debtor came bringing one thousand Dinars to him and said, 'By Allah, I had been trying hard to get a boat so that I could bring you your money, but failed to get one before the one I have come by.' The lender asked, 'Have you sent something to me?' The debtor replied, 'I have told you I could not get a boat other than the one I have come by.' The lender said, 'Allah has delivered on your behalf the money you sent in the piece of wood. So, you may keep your one thousand Dinars and depart guided on the right path.' "

now THAT is trust in the god

as ALLAH is the guarantor of the loan, that was all that was needed

hi again here i am coming and going as i please

Hey Victoria,

Who decides which haddith are good? That is pretty subjective. Bukhari is considered good in the Islamic world. You are the first Muslim that I have heard questioning Bukhari. I am sure you can come up with some who do but they would be the exception and not the rule. The prejudice in Darfur is not solely against black Muslims but also against Christians. The Qur'an definitely is anti Christian when one examines what the Qur'an says about those who believe that Jesus is God's Son. The Qur'an also denies His sacrificial death on the cross and His resurrection from the dead. Thus Christians who believe that Jesus daied on the cross are considered pagans by the Qur'an.

You will have to excuse Victoria as she is going through a period of "pwtfft" withdrawal. And she also has finally concluded that Mohammed was a warmongering, womanizing, holey not holy hallucinator. I am not sure she will recover. We did said many suggestions to assist her withdrawal but there is no escape from Islam short of death.

"no one wants to stay on topic so peace and bye"

Victoria.

You imply this is your last post so often -it is hard to believe your words. Once again- you are unaware of your repetitive actions. Now that I bring it to your attention, perhaps you will gain awareness and begin to question and search for Truth in your life. But remember- self awareness is only of value when it is followed with self accountability, self control, and a change of habit.

Best wishes.

so there you go-
no response to the asserton that the qu'ran is a proponent of racism.
and the hatred of the jenjawheed is not representative of the beliefs of muslims-but the hatred in their own hearts with no basis in religion, but a political subjugation of innocents.

ok folks- no one wants to stay on topic so peace and bye

Hmm. Victoria is off on another nutty tirade: replete with rambling meanderings and shouting CAPITALS.

what a sneaky misleader you are anonymous!

here is what you deleted However, some contemporary Muslims argue that the Qur'an alone is sufficient. EXAMPLES OF SUCH MUSLIM SOURCES ARE TOLU-E-ISLAM (RESURGENCE OF ISLAM), FREE MINDS, and UNITED SUBMITTERS INTERNATIONAL. Muslims who take the "Qur'an alone" viewpoint are regarded as deviant by mainstream Muslim scholars, and by the vast majority of Muslims. Hadith-trusting Muslims argue that many Qur'anic instructions are impossible to fulfill without guidance from the ahadith. (The Qur'an does not, for example, specify how many prayer cycles constitute fulfillment of each of the daily prayers. See salat.) It is also important to note that most Muslims claim that the Qur'an cannot be fully explained by itself alone or read with complete understanding -- which is why the Hadith is referred to as the "second source" of Islam. While the Qur'an states "We have made it (the Qur'an) easy to understand and in your own tongue (language) may you take heed." (Qur'an 44:58), there are great debates between Muslims regarding the views stated in the Qur'an, and also those stated in the Hadith.

THE ORIGINS OF SOME SOURCES AND STATEMENTS IN THE HADEETH CANNOT BE VERIFIED as regards their source of origin.

THIS IS THE WHOLE PARAGRAPH THAT YOU EDITED TO TRY TO MISLEAD

and besides that- the original contention that i made WAS THAT MANY HADEETH ARE UNDER SUSPICION AS TO THEIR VALIDITY WHICH ALL MUSLIMS AGREE ON

so i was questioning the validity of the hadeeths (and i was right because the ones you presented were tampered with to give an ugly slant- and the respected ones were presented in the sermon of the prophet(pbuh) post i made)

YOU DELETED THE GROUPS IT WAS REFERRING TO TO TRY TO TWIST IT TO MAKE YOUR INACCURATE POINT!

here is the continuation of the SAME SOURCE YOU CITED

The origins of some verses and statements in the Hadith CANNOT BE VERIFIED as regards their source of origin.

Muslim scholars classify hadith relating to Muhammad as follows:

What Muhammad said (قول) (qawl)
What Muhammad did (فعل) (fi'l)
What Muhammad approved (تقرير) (taqrir) in others' actions
There are also hadith relating to the words and deeds of the companions, but they may not have the same weight as those about Muhammad. Many actually believe that the Hadith was written HUNDREDS OF YEARS after Muhammed died.

Non-Muslim scholars note that there is a great overlap between the records of early Islamic traditions. Accounts of early Islam are also to be found in:

sira (stories, especially biographies of Muhammad)
tafsir (commentary on the Qur'an)
fiqh (jurisprudence)
Some of these accounts are also found as hadith; some aren't. For a Non-Muslim historian, these are all simply historical sources; for the Muslim scholar, hadith have a special status. They cite sura [Qur'an 7:157] (Yusuf Ali translation):

“ Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the Law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper. ”

They take this and other Qur'anic verses to require Muslims to follow AUTHENTIC hadith. However, a growing number of "Quran-only" Muslims disagree with this view and interpret these verses differently; they argue that the hadith are of human creation and have no authority.

Their argument is strengthened by verses of the Quran which criticise the following of "hadith other than quran", the Arabic word "hadith" means "sayings".

i cant believe you actually provided the link- that you changed yourself- as proof!

but here is AGAIN the basic discussion-

pablo under a pseudonym provided hadeeth-

it was not HADEETH ALTOGETHER THAT WAS QUESTIONED
but the ones provided

so i proved they were tampered by the insertion of parentheses TO CHANGE THEIR MEANING aND PROVIDED THE CORRECT ONE.

but most of all- the whole articel begins with this!

This article needs additional references or sources for verification.
Please help improve this article by adding reliable references. Unverifiable material may be challenged and removed. (February 2007)

which is why i dont use wikipedia AS A RELIABLE SOURCE

A'salam,

I think there are a few "Qur'an only 'Muslims'" (I only know these) groups, the biggest one is the Nineteeners/Submitters led by Rashid Khalifa. Their whole belief system revolves around the number 19 and they claim their founder is a prophet of God. Needless to say they reject all hadiths and claim that the Sunnah is without merit and we shouldn't follow it.

Wa'salam

-----------------------------------------------
Assalam-o-Alaikum

A similar group or may be the offshoot of 19ers is here in the subcontinent. They are the followers of Ahmed Pervaiz and known among general muslims as Pervaizee. They are rejecters of Sunnah but they dont reject it outrightly as a lie. They say it is not necessary to follow sunnah because it was meant to be useful for the muslims at that time only (1500 years ago). It is interesting to note that still they quote hadith whenever it suits them.

wassalam

--------------------------------------------------
The Sunnah HAS to be a part of the Islam for the simple reason that from early times Muslims have been transmitting two sources through the generations: the Holy Qur'an; and a set of practical teachings which has been referred to as the "Sunnah [of the Prophet (p)]". In fact the Qur'an seems to assume that those receiving the Prophet (p), knew what Salaah, Hajj, etc. was.

If the Qur'an-only sects can show us one example in Muslim history, where not a single form of Sunnah was practiced, they might have a leg to stand on. Otherwise I think they can be dismissed.

In my experience, Qur'an-only movements seem to be a reaction against the traditional schools of Islamic law, rather religion in itself.

Salaam `alaykum

http://uiforum.uaeforum.org/archive/index.php?t-3991.html

WIKIPEDIA IS THE MOST INACCURATE AND QUESTIONED SOURCE OF INFORMATION ON THE INTERNET

IF YOU ARE USING WIKIPEDIA IT IS BECAUSE YOU CANNOT FIND AN ISLAMIC SOURCE
(like the one i posted before)

if i ever use wikipedia for ANYTHING it is always with a prefaced disclaimer- and always and only in support of several other valid sources-

NEVER as a source by itself

so it still leaves the unanswered challenge

FIND IT IN THE QU'RAN

where is the racism in the qu'ran?
it is not there and no one can find what doesnt exist

From Wikipedia:

The OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of Muslims consider hadith to be essential supplements to and clarifications of the Qur'an, Islam's holy book. Muslim scholars find it useful to know how Muhammad or his companions explained the revelations, or upon what occasion Muhammad received them. Sometimes this will clarify a passage that otherwise seems obscure. Hadith are a source for Islamic history and biography. For the VAST MAJORITY of DEVOUT Muslims, authentic hadith are also a source of religious inspiration.

However, some contemporary Muslims argue that the Qur'an alone is sufficient. Muslims who take the "Qur'an alone" viewpoint are regarded as DEVIANT by mainstream Muslim scholars, and by the VAST MAJORITY of Muslims. Hadith-trusting Muslims argue that many Qur'anic instructions are impossible to fulfill without guidance from the ahadith. (The Qur'an does not, for example, specify how many prayer cycles constitute fulfillment of each of the daily prayers. See salat.) It is also important to note that most Muslims claim that the Qur'an cannot be fully explained by itself alone or read with complete understanding -- which is why the Hadith is referred to as the "second source" of Islam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith

and pablo you missed the issue-

it is not incumbent on me to prove or disporve the hadeeth-

at the outset i asked for qu'ranic references, as that is the only true criteria.

the assertion (from marian) was that the genocide in darfur is based on the jenjawheed looking to the qu'ran as a hate filled doctrine that sanctifies their racist action-

i stated this is patently false-
and asked for marian to provide said qu'ranic references anywhere to prove this assertion.

she was not able to do so. period

what followed instead was a flurry of childish namecalling and ppor attempts at chararacter asassination- also an unrelated question from you followed by some hadeeth that STILL ddnt prove racist intentions, as the racism was inserted in parentheses!

but despite all these simple distractions- point A to point B was never accomplished.

an assertion is made,(by marian) refuted, proof is asked.(by me)

proof is not given (by marian)

even my apology was somehow a NEW excuse for MORE insults!

how ridiculous.

no pablo= hadeeth are NOT commentary on the qu'ran- they are not exegesis-

they are a collection of sayings of the Prophet(pbuh)

there is also a science devoted to determining the validity of hadeeth (saying of the Prophetpbuh) they can be strong transmission, meaning that the veracity and memory of the transmitter are sound- mediocre, and weak.

bukhari contains a variety of hadeeth- not all are considered strong by any means.

go back and read the post i made- if you had you wouldnt be under this impression.

i only post this because others might have the same misconception-

finally, if a hadeeth's tone is in contradiction with what we know as the sunnah of the prophet(pbuh), and ESPECIALLY if it contradicts the qu'ran- it is usually ignored.

im no longer responding to those who substitute intelligence with unprovoked insults-

no, im not deceitful, and am a woman-
whle you make nice 'spiritual' posts about your love and concern- your words contain some pretty bitter namecalling-

youve had long conversations with me in the past about this- so dont pretend i havent answered you before. i have- go find it- i have nothing more to say to you unless you quit the nasty insults.

look at all the time you guys have wasted on fomenting islamophobia-

it is not me, it is islam that you hate

i dont even care if it is me- we are strangers in a cyber world-
dont get so emotionally involved to the point where you are insulting strangers

you dont care about these issues
you ask rhetorical questions that are just fronts for making negative assertions.
its not dialogue its just sad

Good haddith are commentary on the qur'an. In fact the Qur'an makes no sense without the haddith and the history of the prophet. Ignore the Haddith and you can make the Qur'an mean whatever you want and that is exactly what Victoria doing. Her version of Islam does not agree with the majority of the Muslim world but it is more palatable for the Western world. The version of Islam she is peddling is pseudo Islam and it it is a deceitful version. Maybe she knows that and maybe she does not but I pray something happens that will shake her from the lie she is believing so that she may see Jesus the Son of God as the true Saviour of the world who laid down his life for her.

Victoria,

BTW, the for Victoria posts were from me

Victoria,

Your denial is astonishing. Prove to us that the beat your wife translation is a bad translation. Prove to us the Bukhari's haddith are not good haddith. Last time I checked he was the most trusted. Is your name really Victoria? Are you really a woman?

OK fellow bloggers, let's recap:

The question of the day is not really a question, but a statement by Eboo Patel:

'Muslim antisemitism exists and it is ugly and it is vile.'

But Eboo also says:

‘The voices of people like Shaykh Hamza and Imam Malik are having an increasing influence within the American Muslim community for a very simple reason – they reflect the attitude of the majority of American Muslims, who have felt both sickened and silenced by the minority of Muslims who speak of antisemitism as if it were a core tenet of Islam.’

That fact is well proven on these boards. There is very little antisemitism comment here amidst a cacophony of Muslim, Islam and Qur’an bashing.

What few anti-Israeli comments that do appear here are directed at the USA supported immoral and illegal occupation of Palestine, not at Jewish people in general, and certainly not at the Jewish citizens of the USA.

Victoria.

"ok marian, im sorry i thought you posted 'for victoria'. i didnt make a distinction, it was an honest mistake."

You have given a lame excuse for one lone mistake in judgment. Your independent thinking is so weakened- Your thoughts so narrow- You entirely miss the substance of your choices and subsequent behaviors.

In truth, you have made multiple mistakes. Your inability to acknowledge the many failures in judgment you continue to make- dooms you to repeat. The repetitive cycle has you bound. It is a prison to you.

You are in spiritual darkness and are blind to the Truth. If you want deliverance. Seek it.

ok marian, im sorry i thought you posted 'for victoria'.

i didnt make a distinction, but just read all the posts to me and tried honestly to answer.

it was an honest mistake, not intended to demean you in any way.

ok?

alrighty then, let's just continue to agree to disagree, shall we?

peace to you

and Victoria.

You are so SELF ABSORBED, you will not acknowledge your multiple mistakes. Think about it.

Victoria,

My you're in a twist.

I'll remind you. I pasted a bit of a post I agreed with and posted it. I still agree with it. Go live in a Muslim country and come back and share your experience. You are no sage. You don't know W. T. F. you're talking about.

You began by accusing me of being a host of posters and its not over. Now you believe I am the poster "for Victoria" and have posted:

"so, again marian- QU'RAN QU'RAN QU'RAN"

The wise "for Victoria" is somewhere having a good laugh.

no marian- you're not pablo either-

but i answered what was addressed to me.

now you specifically posted this contention-

What are your thoughts on the atrocities occurring daily in Darfur -Muslim Janjaweed raping, starving, maiming,and killing the native Black African Muslims because of their SKIN COLOR? Does this glorify Allah or does it reveal the hatred of the words in the Koran that inspire these unspeakable actions?

since you have failed to prove your contention-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ hatred of the words in the Koran that inspire these unspeakable actions?
~~~~~~

by providing any words for the qu'ran- i answered to your contention-

ok now thats all clear-
since you couldnt assert with refernece your first point- no need to move onto any more.

really marian, why are you so worried about my demeanor?

is it just islam you dislike?
american muslims, or me in particular that gets your craw?

you kept calling for me to give up my beliefs- which is well- pretty intolerant to begin with but what are yours?

i dont want to attack your beliefs- but your posts are so focused on what you perceive i believe that i have to wonder.

if you really have on epoint or one question then ask-

dont ask about the actions of people in sudan and how they misinterpret their religion-

ive said many times that these anecdotal incidences people get caught up with are not proof of anything except mans inhumanity ot man(and women)

which i simply dont have the powers of time and space to cover- nor should i.

i am responsible for my own actions as are you, i cannot accept your, (or their) sins, and they (and you) cant accept mine.

now seriously,you are an intelligent woman- i like to think i am also-

there is no way i could ever be a party to a religion that negated my existence- and i dont.

i recommend highly asma aslan - a pakistani doctor, and her book- unreading the patriarchal interpretations of the qu'ran.

its not that women arent addressing these issues- islam is the religion of social justice.

however, men have been subjugating women throughout history and still do-

look at the poverty figures in america, and the single women heads of households-

women are the primary supporters of the children, yet make 71 cents to every dollar a man makes for the same work.
look at the statistics on domestic abuse, and rape.

these arent issues of religion, but issues of the misogyny that has ruled the world to the begnning of time.

no woman could own property or vote in america until 87 years ago when the 19th amendment passed on 8-26.
but islam gave this autonomy to women over 1400 years ago.
as a muslim wife, i have full control over my finances AND my husband has to support me completely financially in the same style with which he lives- he cannot touch any money i have- it is up to my own discretion to use or not.

(personally, i think this is somewhat unfair to men) but it is the true basis of islamic law.

im not going to go into an anti-chauvinist rant but the things you compalin about are not islamically based.

islam gives us a very wise insight into human nature and how to operate in a society that guarantees respect for all its members- specifically its most powerless ones.

theres nothing islamic or christian or judaic or masculine or feminine about oppression- it is a social miscarriage of justice whenever it occurs.

but it is not islamic. it is anti-islamic because the precept of islam is specfically to speak to injustice, to speak to the tyrannical despot no matter what the personal cost.

there is no excuse to be silent- to quote my old AIDS compadres, silence = complicity.

this is what islam compels us to do and be.

ok, enough of this now- peace to you and i respond a great deal better to honey than i do vinegar.
but really- if you find something in the qu'ran that reeks of some injustice, call it to my attention-

peace marian

Victoria.

When you are more rational come back to read your flurry of multiple posts to this thread. You are confused and rambling. You are making false statements again and again. When you aren't trying to prop up a falsehood with another mistruth- you post a misplaced change of topic..

Your belief system in Life should bring you joy not confusion and weakness.

Try to overcome your frustration and anger. Come back to read the posts here and be enlightened.

so does that mean you werent able to come up with an answer?

look, i didnt start this- you asked and asked

personally- i dont like when these posts get commandeered by side issues-

telling me im a deluded creature who bases my life on a lie isnt compassion- its condescension.

and it also avoids my challenge

did you find my last 4 posts avoiding or not answering?

it is you who have failed the challenge of finding anything in the qu'ran to validate your assertion that islam is racist in nature.

well- youve continued to claim i made a false assumption about your identity-

here is the post- (you force me to defend my veracity by continuing to attack it)
Sure I'm the anon posters (I do occasionally agree with them)."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
certainly bears the grain of truth within it- many a truth is said in jest they say

also, each post is one anonymous, and one marian
but there is no way to deny the second example with the exact same words- that definitively proves you post sometimes anonymous sometimes with your name (on different blogs)
EXAMPLE ONE***********************

ANONYMOUS POST THEN MARIAN POST
SOMEONE :

marian :
Victoria:

*You are SELF-ABSORBED. Why don't you spend some *time in a Muslim country before you declare *yourself an Islamic sage?
Posted on September 17, *2007 03:11
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

EXAMPLE TWO*************************
Anonymous:
(i have deleted a long tirade of insults)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*You are SELF-ABSORBED. Why don't you spend some* *time in a Muslim country before you declare
*yourself an Islamic sage? **
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

September 17, 2007 12:01 PM |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

#1 from 911 posts
#2 from post on salman rushdie

alright marian, i am tired of this- you didnt prove your initial point (that the qu'ran preaches hatred and racism)- have gotten lost in your posts and i as well as the others (im sure)here are bored with this sniping.

dont try to maslk an ignoble motive as condescension as a noble one of compassion-

we can agree to disagree as ive suggested before
you to yours (which ytou never actually have defined) and me to mine.

goodnight marian may ALLAH reward you as you deserve.

Victoria,

Once again truth eludes you. I am not the poster "for Victoria".

I won't call you a liar. You are quite simply often wrong.

wow- i just read a great article on islam- better than anything i could say-

its in the upper right hand corner here- ill just link it and save anyone the trouble-

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/guestvoices/2007/09/message_from_the_prophet_is_cl.html

hisham al-zubeir - prophet says co-exist

Victoria-

As I said in my last post:

"I doubt that you will have the intellectual courage to answer these questions. But your avoiding them will in itself be meaningful to us."

So. It is no surprise that you find my questions unanswerable and post only disjointed ramblings.

I post because I am compassionate to you. You have placed your faith in a lie and that lie has blinded you to Truth. My questions offend you because they are truthful of the very real flaws of Islam. You are living in spiritual darkness. There is deliverance for you. The Light of Truth may seem intolerable to you now, but it is the only path to Freedom.

You believed I was posting under various pseudonyms and you were wrong. Your judgments are faulty, Victoria. Someday you will wake up and realise your error.

marian- actually when i posted predicting that you would not be able to find anything in the qu'ran- i dleted a line i worte saying i was sure you'd come back wth hadeeth- but i thought, no- i wont post accusations based on my instinct-

so- as stated- come up with some QU"RAN-
you cannot
there is no such ugly assertion or validation of prejudice in the qu'ran-

there are however many hadeeth about the Prophet(pnuh) adjuring people to not be racist- but they are hadeeth

------------ IN THE NAME OF GOD, MOST GRACIOUS, MOST MERCIFUL

The Farewell Pilgrimage of the Prophet Muhammed was a significant historical event in the Muslims life. Although thousands of Muslims witnessed the Farewell (last) Sermon given by the Prophet Muhammed, the Hadiths books reported at least three versions of the same Sermon. This only reflects how CONFUSING, MISLEADING, DISTORTED and INACCURATE
are the HADITH Books. For an event witnessed by over 10,000 people an accurate narration should have been available, but it has not.

As God promised in the Quran, His Hadith (Quran) will be
always , the BEST HADITH (39:23), the MOST ACCURATE HADITH (4:87), and the " NOT FABRICATED HADITH" (12:111).

This copy of the last (Farewell) Sermon of the Prophet Muhammed was distributed by Hamdard National Foundation (Pakistan). In this sermon,
we can witness the truth despite the corruption that involved the hadith books.

People who believe God in His repeated assertions in the Quran that the Quran is complete, perfect and fully detailed are in no need to this Hadith or any other Hadith other than the Quran. God, however, insisted on putting the truth in the way of those who get lost and seek other sources for Islam other than the Quran.

Therefore for the sincere Muslim who is seeking the truth, and who will read this reported Sermon, the truth will be clarified for him/her.

We will add Subtitles and comments between { ...} to get your attention to some very important issues. The actual sermon will be in green.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The (Last) Farewell Sermon

{(1) The Opening Statement of the Sermon : It has the CORRECT SHAHADA, i.e. La Elaha Ella Allah.}

All Praise is due to Allah, so we praise Him, and seek His pardon and we turn to Him. We seek refuge with Allah from the evils of ourselves and from the evil consequences of our deeds. Whom Allah guides aright there is none to lead him astray.

I BEAR WITNESS THAT THERE IS NO GOD BUT ALLAH (La Elaha Ella Allah), the One, having no partner with Him. His is the sovereignty and to Him is due all praise. He grants life and causes death and is powerful over everything. THERE IS NO GOD BUT ALLAH ( La Elaha Ella Allah), the One; He fulfilled His promise and granted victory to His bondsman, and He ALONE routed the confederates (of the enemies of Islam).

{Compare this Shahada with the Shahada of God, the angels and those who posses knowledge as stated in the Quran in 3:18). ALSO REMEMBER THAT THE SHAHADA of the Hypocrites in mentioned in 63:1, where the hypocrites insist on changing God's First Commandment (Shahada) and add Muhammed's name to La Elaha Ella Allah. Muhammed will complain to God from them on the day of Judgment for deserting the Quran where the true correct Shahada is mentioned in 3:18, See also our File The true Shahada (Testimony of Faith). }

O People, just as you regard this month, this day, this city as Sacred, so regard the life and property of every Muslim as a sacred trust. Return the goods entrusted to you to their rightful owners. Hurt no one so that no one may hurt you. Remember that you will indeed meet your Lord, and that he will indeed reckon your deeds. Allah has forbidden you to take usury , therefore all usury obligations shall henceforth be waived. Your capital is yours to keep. You will neither inflict nor suffer any inequity.

{(2) QURAN ALONE: }

Verily I have left amongst you that which will never lead you astray, the BOOK OF ALLAH, which if you hold fast you shall never go astray. And beware of transgressing the limits set in the matters of religion, for it is transgression of religion, that brought destruction to (many people) before you.

{See the call for the QURAN ALONE here. This is the portion of the sermon that was corrupted by every group or sect who want to hide the truth. They forgot that the truth of the Quran cannot be corrupted.

Shiites changed this version of the Sermon to read, the book of Allah and my family, while the Sunnites changed it to read, the Book of Allah and my Sunnah. Only the version that talks about QURAN ALONE is the only one that does not contradict the QURAN and does not have any political motive behind it. It is the version ignored by the sects of the Sunnites and Shiites because it does not support their political agenda.}

{Here are the references to the three versions of the Sermon

1) I leave with you Quran and Sunnah, Muwatta, 46/3

2) I leave with you Quran and Ahl al-bayt , Muslim 44/4, Nu2408; ibn hanbal 4/366; darimi 23/1, nu 3319.

3) I leave for you the Quran alone you shall uphold it.

Muslim 15/19, nu 1218; ibn Majah 25/84, Abu dawud 11/56.

See Sahih Muslim, Book of Hajj, Book 7 , Number 2803: http://www.iiu.edu.my/deed/hadith/muslim/007_smt.html}

O People, it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under Allah's trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right, then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers. And it is your right that they do not make friends with anyone of whom you do not approve, as well as never to be unchaste.

{(3) FIVE PRAYERS & ONE MONTH FOR FASTING.: In another section of the sermon:}

Behold, Worship your Lord; offer prayers FIVE TIMES a day; observe FAST IN THE MONTH OF RAMADAN; pay READILY the Zakat on your property; and perform the pilgrimage to the House of God if you can afford to. and obey your rulers and you will be admitted to the Paradise of your Lord.

{See here the call for following the rituals of Islam as given to Abraham and repeated in the QURAN ALONE. Not like what is mentioned in Bukhary, Moslem and others' books that add more prayers and more fasting to what God has already decreed.}

{ The house of God is Only in Mecca (Kaaba) and not the one in Medina, where the Muslims added an extra ritual to Hajj, pilgrimage to the Prophet's tomb. The prophet never asked them to do that. }

All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab;
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

also a WHITE HAS NO SUPERIROTY OVER A BLACK NOR A BLACK HAS NAY SUPERIORITY OVER A WHITE. - except by piety and good action.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not therefore do injustice to yourselves. Remember one day you will meet Allah and answer your deeds. So beware: do not stray from the path of righteousness after I am gone.

{(4) QURAN ALONE AGAIN: In another part of the sermon, the Prophet Muhammed was reported as saying :}

O People. Listen and obey , though a mangled Abyssinian slave is appointed your Amir (ruler), PROVIDED he executes (the ordinance of ) THE BOOK OF ALLAH among you.

{Here again the call is for QURAN ALONE}.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Editor's comment:

Those who are seeking to obey the Prophet Muhammed and follow his steps have it easy because they got the book that God promised to preserve, the BEST HADITH (Quran). Obeying the prophet Muhammed is to follow his message, the Quran and Quran alone. When the prophet Muhammed died he left behind ONLY one book completely written and preserved, i.e. the Quran. He never left any Hadith books. These books are the innovations added to Islam about 150-200 years after the death of the prophet.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

STRANGELY ENOUGH- IT HAS THE CORRUPTED HADEETH THAT YOU USED TO "PROVE" your point!

i dodnt know that when i looked for the sermon.

so, again marian- QU'RAN QU'RAN QU'RAN

GOOD LUCK WITH THAT

MARIAN- WHAT A SURPRISE- YOU COME UP WITH SOME HADEETH-

NOW GO BACK AND FIND IT IN THE QU'RAN

o and btw- anything in parentheses is an insertion by the author-
parenthetical insertions actually prove the inauthenticity

(because whoever wrote it had to add their own slant)

pablo- if im not mistaken youre using the noble qu'ran translation-

a very dear friend of mine who has since passed on said he wished he could get ahold of that translation and burn them all-

now- weve already had this very long discussion on pamela taylors? or zaid shakjirs blog- go back to the question on women in islam and look it up

no- there is no beating of women its is an ugly and horrible mistranslation

sadly, there are even some illiterate men in the muslim world who have also tried to make this contention-

anyway- hadeeths are the words of men recording what the Prophet(pbuh) may or may not have said-

they are highly contentious and if they are in disagreement with the qu'ran, to be ignored comp[letely.

however- what youve posted says nothing about inferiority of blacks- or prejudice being allowed at all

Allah's Apostle said, "You should listen to and obey, your ruler even if he was an Ethiopian slave whose head looks like a raisin." (Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 89, Number 256)

abyssinians for instance, were the first country to accept the prophethood of Muhammad(pbuh).
their king was a christian (and of course- it was abyssinia not ethiopia.

and now, this other slave of dinar-
"The Prophet said, ‘Let the negro slave of Dinar perish. And if he is pierced with a thorn, let him not find anyone to take it out for him.... If he asks for anything it shall not be granted, and if he needs intercession [to get into paradise], his intercession will be denied.'"
Bukhari:V4B52N137

i dont know who this slave was-= or what he did- but his blackness doesnt seem to be at issue here- but his actions.

QU'RAN MARIAN QU'RAN!

September 24, 2007 10:50 PM | Report

"The Prophet said, ‘Let the negro slave of Dinar perish. And if he is pierced with a thorn, let him not find anyone to take it out for him.... If he [the black slave] asks for anything it shall not be granted, and if he needs intercession [to get into paradise], his intercession will be denied.'"
Bukhari:V4B52N137

Allah's Apostle said, "You should listen to and obey, your ruler even if he was an Ethiopian (black) slave whose head looks like a raisin." (Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 89, Number 256)

Victoria,

You are a good Muslim to believe what the Qur'an says. Do you agree with the following passage?

"Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in their sleeping places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great" (Qur'an, 4:34).

by gideon levy on haaretz newspaper

id say this man has scary prescience- especially in light of the israeli night raid on syria l2 weeks ago

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/746698.html

haaretz is an israeli newspaper

Rick,

Go live in a Muslim country and then see if you are singing the same PC tune. You do not know what you are talking about. You are intoxicated on PC kool aid.

i am certain you cannot find any validation for your false claim, and fully expect you to not have an answer- or just disappear.

but, im givng you the chance-

and btw- challenges dont elicit any real desire in me to answer one way or the other-

marian- although your questions are impicitly accusatory- and by that token- crooked in their inception-

its simple- the qu'ran and our Prophet(pbuh) stated most clearly and many times that there is no superiority of arab over non-arab- or white over black.

this does not prove the hatred i the qu'ran, but the hatred and racism in the hearts of the janjawheed-

before i spend time answering, which may prove to be futile-

i challenge you to find anywhere in the qu'ran that would back up your lie against it. (maybe you dont know any better- or someone misinformed you)

it is not in the qu'ran, so good luck.

get back to me with that.

remember, find where it says any such thing in the qu'ran, and bring it back- and of course provide verse and reference.

i recommend this group to yhttp://www.womeninblack.net/ou-

now, enough of these distractions and personal assaults which have no bearing on the conversation-

theres a wonderful documentary i just finished watching- "the other zionists"

its about a group of 500 israeli women called the MACHSOM WATCH- (checkpoint watch) and they go to the palestinian checkpoints and just- watch.

they are israelis living in israel- and are against the treatment of palestinians by israelis.

most enlightening

i just read the most eloquent saying by a jewish woman named teresa on pamela taylors blog-

she said that a twisted question can only produce twisted answers.

so in the future, this is your one shot.

i will not answer any twisted questions drippling with accusatory allusions.

i bet lee bollinger wouldnt answer such questions either.
besides, as you yourself have noted- i really do blog alot here-
for you to assume what i have or have not responded to requires a great deal of conjecture on your part.

if you can bring yourself up to the level of cordial and respectful discourse- sans negative allusions and observations- ill continue- but you have not proven much in that way so far.

and, im not that easily distracted.

Victoria:

I will close my posts to you with a few questions:

What are your thoughts on the atrocities occurring daily in Darfur -Muslim Janjaweed raping, starving, maiming,and killing the native Black African Muslims because of their skin color? Does this glorify Allah or does it reveal the hatred of the words in the Koran that inspire these unspeakable actions?

As a Muslim sister -how do you account for the increasing number of young Muslim women being murdered and committing suicide because they cannot stay silent in a repressive society (in the east- they set themselves on fire and in the west- they throw themselves under trains)? What sort of religious honor encourages family members to kill their own flesh and blood?

How do you account for the Islamic sectarian hatred and the Muslim world's inability to agree on even the most basic tenets of the Koran? Isn't this just a precursor of the ultimate failure of Islam? How will an ideology that encourages discord, anger, hatred, murder, and death among the believers ever stand up to the resistance of freedom-loving people and the test of time?

To borrow the words of Lee Bollinger:

"I doubt that you will have the intellectual courage to answer these questions. But your avoiding them will in itself be meaningful to us."

oops that was me

ISNA- the Iranian Students News Agency?

im not saying one way or another anything about ahmadinejad-

but really, who cares if he goes to a dinner with some iranian students?
and its all in arabic.

what on earth could your point possibly be?

MARIAN- we will simply agree to disagree.
however i am open to cordial dialogue in the future.

as ive said in many ways on these boards- not only in repsect to myself but to others-

ad hominem attacks only degenrate into uselessness and malice-

they serve no purpose and are ususally(if not always) impotent rejoinders when the poster has no intelligent comments to rebut with.

so, i have to ignore further provocations form you of a personal nature.

you'll increas them for awhile- ill ignore them, and then you'll either get bored with it realizing the futility of insulting someone who doesnt respond, or youll contiune (which doesnt say much for ones mental stability)

they say insanity is when a person continues the same actions and gets the same results- but continues anyway expecting different results.

you see, if i continue to respond to snipes with defense when attacked, it only brings down the tone of the dialogue for everyone else- and i have too much repsect for my fellow bloggers to do that to the.

so i leave you in peace to accept it or reject my good wishes -its on you

The cold war days are long gone. Welcome to the new world of asymmetric warfare.

And the Cold War was won with tooth picks and wishful, utopian thinking???

Blinded by PC and CTCNL,

The Powell Doctrine of Overwhelming Military Power is dead. It cannot defeat the insurgent who swims in the sea of the people, as twice proven now in Vietnam and Iraq. It can overthrow any government on earth, but it cannot provide a stable democracy as a replacement if the people don’t want it.

We didn’t overthrow Saddam because he was a cruel dictator or because we thought he had WMD. We wanted his oil fields.

Sure we would throw out the radicals if we could find them, but we can’t. The way to defeat them is to demand a government that works in the interest of the people, and that makes smart decisions. That enacts energy conservation laws and works to develop alternative energy sources. We must break our dependence on Middle East oil. We cannot keep the oil flowing by using overwhelming military power.

Imagine if the hundreds of billions of dollars (probably now approaching if not exceeding a trillion), squandered on invading and occupying Palestine and Iraq had instead been spent on infrastructure, conservation and alternate energy sources. How much better off would be our economy as well as our national security.

No I do not ride a bicycle to work. Individual action is not what is needed. What is needed is honest and smart government policy.

It is not PC that brings down nations. It is hubris and corruption from the head down. It is the head of the fish that is the first to rot.

Some of you might want to see Mamoud Ahmadinejad (the embodiment of the "Muslim antisemitism that exists and is ugly and is vile.") partying with ISNA here in the USA:

http://www.isna.ir/Main/NewsView.aspx?ID=News-1004054&Lang=P

Rick,

You noted: "No, the US of A is not forcing the Sunnis and Shiites to butcher each other, but we did enable the butchery by toppling the legitimate government and law enforcement institutions and failing to put a stable government in its place. And what were our motives? The answer is greed and oil lust."

A legitimate government? A dictator who "law" enforcement involved mass executions, chemical weapons and a brutal secret police? Who invaded Kuwait? Who bragged about WMD?

Greed and oil lust? And I guess you are riding a bike to work and church? Growing your own food? And supplying all of your electricity with the generator on your bike??

We are still in Iraq because of the obvious civil war between the Sunnis and Shiites that is being empowered by the Third Axis of Evil and the "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia. Keeping Iran in check and keeping the oil shipments flowing to the free world are added reasons for our presence in Iraq. And had a Democrat been in the WH, we would have taken the same course of action.

Viva La France!!!!!

Rick,

You live in a dream world of your own making. It does not matter how powerful our nation is if it is disabled by PC. All great nations rise and fall and the USA is not above all the other great kingdoms who have fallen in the past. It is my hope that our nation will awaken from thinking like yours and take the necessary steps to secure out country as follows:

- Ignore the press and PC politicians and crush the insurgency without mercy or apology.

- Shut down CARE

- Shut down all the Islamic camps around the USA and kick all the redicals out of the country.

Marian,

Victoria ignores posts on the subjects you named and now she is categorizing pointing those things out as insults even though those events are actually happening all around the Muslim world. She cannot defend the indefeasible. She chooses to remain blind no matter what the Qur'an says about abusing women and murdering infidels. She cannot say that we did not try to help her see the truth when she stands before the true Almighty Jesus Christ. I know I tried to tell her out of love for a fellow human made in the image of God.

Ted Baines:

"A ban on all Muslim immgration to the west (USA, Canada and Western Europe) will benefit both the West and the Muslims."

And we may need to consider forced repatriation..

NEARLY 10,000 POTENTIAL TERRORISTS ENTER USA:

"Nearly 10,000 people from countries designated as sponsors of terrorism have entered the United States under an immigration diversity program with relatively few restrictions, a report released on Friday said.

The report by the U.S. Government Accountability Office said the State Department's inspector general warned in 2003 that the Diversity Visa Program posed a significant risk to national security and recommended it be closed to people from countries on the U.S. list of state terrorism sponsors.

But four years later, the program remains open to people from those nations and little is known about what becomes of them once they enter the United States, the GAO said.

From 2000 to 2006, the program allowed 3,703 people from Sudan, 3,164 from Iran, 2,763 from Cuba and 162 from Syria to enter the United States and apply for permanent legal resident status, the report said. That totals 9,792 new immigrants."

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSN212762820070921?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews

A ban on all Muslim immgration to the west ( USA, Canada and Western Europe) will benefit both the West and the Muslims.

It will benefit the West because by banning the immigration of Muslims, the root cause of terroristic acts inside the West will have been eliminated for the most part. All terror acts in West are commited and will be commited by Muslm immigrants and their descendants. By banning Muslims the West will no longer have to spend trillions in sending armies into Muslim countries to fight the Muslim terrorists and the regimes that provide aid to the terrorists. Almost all major terror acts have had their genesis in Pakistan with substantial aid from saudi Arabia. Instead the West will need to spend a very small amount keeping guard against Muslims in the West. Sending western armies into Muslim countries has been a failed measure for the simple reason that the general Muslim popupaltion supports, actively and passively, Islamic terrorism. Had the Muslim population been against terrorism bin Laden would have been caught a long time ago.

The ban will have to accompanied by giving financial aid to some of the poorer Muslim countries with the proviso that the aid be used to develop secular education in the Muslim countries. An impoverished Muslim country like Bangladesh or like Pakistan will welcome $10 billion annually because it will provide much needed foreign exchange and it will raise the standards of education in these countries if the aid is properly used.

By not allowing Muslims to migrate to the West, the Muslims in those countries will be forced to fight for reform of both Islam and of the political systems in the countries. At present it is too easy for the Muslims. At the slightest sign of oppression millions of Muslims flee to West into the arms of eager western liberals because for the latter their own reputation as do-gooders is more important than the safety and security of the West.

Western Europe fought against the repression by the Christian church because there was no means of escape. Had the USA been a refuge for immigrants in the 16th and 17th centuries, the Christian church would not have reformed because the oppressed people of Europe would have fled to America. With their backs against the wall Europeans forced the church and the clergy to reform Christianity.

A ban on Muslim immigration need not apply to all Muslim countries, at least in the beginning. Some countries such as Turkey would be exempt because very few Turks have indulged in terroristic activities. Malaysia would be another example. However stricter standards should apply for allowing immigrants from even these countries.

The following countries would be however the prime targets because the level of terroristic activity in their population has been very high:

Saud Arabia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia, Morrocco, Egypt, Sudan, Yemen, Algeria, Iran, Iraq, Syria.

India, which has a population of nearly 200 million, would also be subject to stricter standards. The Muslims of India have increasingly participated in terroristic activities, most recently in Australia and Britain. A ban on Muslims from India would also be appropriate.

Victoria said:

"ive been on these boards since november of 2006, and have made loooooong posts repeatedly on the very subjects you think i avoid."

I've been reading this forum since its inception. Yet -I've missed your long long posts on the atrocities occurring in Darfur -Muslims raping, starving, and killing other Muslims because of their skin color and all for the glory of Allah.

I've not read your comments on the increasing number of young Muslim women being murdered and committing suicide because they cannot stay silent in a repressive society (in the east- they set themselves on fire and in the west- they throw themselves under trains).

And where are your long posts on Islamic sectarian hatred and the Muslim world's inability to agree on even the most basic tenets of the Koran? Eboo Patel is struggling with this in his commentary above.

Saying you've made these posts that do not exist is just another way to avoid the reality of women's suffering, inter-violence, inconsistency in the Koran -all epidemic in Muslim societies.

"but it really is a compliment to me. intense self reflection"

During Ramadan: you need to learn the difference between self reflection and self accountability.

marian- you are welcome to express your opinion as you see fit- but to accuse a lady of indiscretion is a bit over the top, and a rather serious charge.

its really inappropriate for these conversations, and unecessary- and definitely untrue.

i just felt it should not go unanswered-

Blinded by PC, Marian, and Mike,

I think that you are being overly alarmist in your concern that Islam is about to attack and conquer us. Of course no Muslim country or countries are anywhere near capable of doing that, even if they wanted to, which they do not. There are some very angry and determined radical groups who want to punish us severely for our indefensible invasions and occupations of Muslim holy land.

Don’t be so worried about some offensive writings in ancient texts. One can find equally offensive writing in the Judeo-Christian holy bible; e.g. we will be surely killed for working on the Sabbath, cursing our parents, cursing god, steeling our neighbors slave, being gay, being a who*e, if our ox gores somebody, etc.

Marian,

I don’t hate Jews; I’m not anti-Semite. My best friend is a Jew. I am disappointed that the Jewish lobby has such great influence and control over our government, and that it has misled us into such disastrous misadventures in Palestine and Iraq.

CTCNL,

I will grant your point that our military power has been used effectively and justly on occasion in places such as Kuwait, Bosnia and Kosovo. This does not excuse the criminal incompetence of our current Dear Leader and Hypocrite.

No, the US of A is not forcing the Sunnis and Shiites to butcher each other, but we did enable the butchery by toppling the legitimate government and law enforcement institutions and failing to put a stable government in its place. And what were our motives? The answer is greed and oil lust.

Your CNN link didn’t work for me, but what’s your point; that Shiites are the enemy of Sunni Muslims, and that we are in Iraq to protect the Sunni Muslims. I don’t think so. It is precisely our illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq that has empowered the Shiites.

Hi Victoria,

I love you Baby. Keep the faith.

Salaam.

hi marian-

ive been on these boards since november of 2006, and have made loooooong posts repeatedly on the very subjects you think i avoid.

o well.

to my thinking- intense self reflection is the base of trying to be a conscious human being-

tearing at the roots of my weaknesses and examining them in daylight- to me this is the real work of my life-

actually you couldnt have given me a better compliment-

now since ive told you that- i doubt it will happen again- but it really is a compliment to me.

intense self reflection

i like that so much im going to use it (if you dont mind)

since you're new, you dont know how i operate-

i will not respond to any queries if they are confrontational, aggressive, or insulting.

PERIOD!

ask concerned the christian now liberated

hes been insulting me so long he has actually tired of it-
and ias ive told him- when you get some manners- ill respond ad nausem- but not before

to me it is rewarding bad behavior with attention and respect and i give respect the first time, but if i am continually abused- i dont respnd too much.

now as to joy and serenity-
no- i dont do thatfakey hypocritical spiritual oneupsmanship of bliss ninny everything is all right with the world stuff

i post my views warts and all

hey, when someone else notices my spiritual warts and points them out to me- it may help me see myself better!

more intense self reflection

Jesus(ata) said "Know yourself." and also, "take the big beam out of your own eye before you go looking for the splinter in your brother's eye" (paraphrase)

i take that to heart

if im so busy reflecting on my own logs- that leaves little justification or time to go looking for splinters in others.

one more thing- i gave up awhile ago letting others dictate the course and flow of my conversations,

so yes, i do actually pick my own topics-
so if you want to see my many posts on the subjects you seem unaware of my many posts on, well- go find them if you like.
they're everywhere

im perfectly capable of defining my own self- and i try to give others the respect to allow them the same freedom of speech

ok
thank you rick for sticking up for me thats kind
peace

but it still doesnt address any of the points i made

And the Crusaders who saved Kuwait???

And the Crusaders who protect the Muslims in Bosnia and Kosovo?

And the Crusaders who protect Afghans from the Taliban?

And the USA is forcing the Sunnis and Shiites in Iraq to butcher each other?

Some words of "wisdom" from Saudi Arabia:

"From: http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/02/03/iraq.cleric.ap/index.html

"Al-Sistani was apparently referring to Abdullah bin Jabrain, a key member of Saudi Arabia's clerical establishment, who last month joined a chorus of other senior figures from the hardline Wahhabi school of Sunni Islam that regards Shiites as infidels.

Bin Jabrain described Shiites as "the most vicious enemy of Muslims."

And that is exactly why the USA troops are still in Iraq!!!!!

FYI:

Islamic Law and Dhimmis

Muslim Muftis (legal authorities) agree that the contract of the Dhimmis should be offered primarily to the People of the Book, that is, Christians and Jews, then to the Magis or Zoroastrians. However, they disagree on whether any contract should be signed with other groups such as communists or atheists. The Hanbalites and the Shafi`ites believe that no contract should be made with the ungodly or those who do not believe in the supreme God. Hanifites and Malikites affirm that the Jizya may be accepted from all infidels regardless of their beliefs and faith in God. Abu Hanifa, however, did not want pagans to have this option. They must be given only two options: accept Islam or be killed.

For your information-

Classification of Non-Muslims:

In his article, "The Ordinances of the People of the Covenant and the Minorities in an Islamic State," Sheikh Najih Ibrahim Ibn Abdullah remarks that legists classify non-Muslims or infidels into two categories:

Dar-ul-Harb or the household of War, which refers to non-Muslims who are not bound by a peace treaty, or covenant, and whose blood and property are not protected by the law of vendetta or retaliation; and Dar-us-Salam or the household of Peace, which refers to those who fall into three classifications:

Dhimmis (those in custody) are non-Muslim subjects who live in Muslim countries and agree to pay the Jizya (penalty) in exchange for protection and safety, and to be subject to Islamic law. These enjoy a permanent covenant.

People of the Hudna (truce) are those who sign a peace treaty with Muslims after being defeated in war. They agree to reside in their own land, yet to be subject to the legal jurisprudence of Islam like Dhimmis, provided they do not wage war against Muslims.

Musta'min (protected one) are persons who come to an Islamic country as messengers, merchants, visitors, or student wanting to learn about Islam. A Musta'min should not wage war against Muslims and he is not obliged to pay Jizya, but he would be urged to embrace Islam. If a Musta'min does not accept Islam, he is allowed to return safely to his own country. Muslims are forbidden to hurt him in any way. When he is back in his own homeland, he is treated as one who belongs to the Household of War.

Rick said:

"your hatred of Victoria"

Please be more specific.

Do you mean the sort of thoughtful hatred Eboo Patel wrote about towards Jews? Quoted from above-"Whenever a hate crime (antisemitism) is committed it is time for us to reflect on our collective and individual humanity."

Or do you mean the Muslims complicated hatred of the ingrate outsider: the kafir dhimmi, the kafir harbi, or the kafir musta'min?

Or is it your simplistic hatred towards Jews and Israel? Quoted from your post on another thread-"So the message to the Israelis is, your best bet is to take the next boat for Texas. If you keep this up, someone is sure to lay a few nuclear eggs in Tel Aviv and Haifa."

Rick,

You are completely wrong and you are a perfect example of what I mean when I say that my fellow Americans are blinded by PC. Throughout this thread the mandate of Islam to conquer the world for Allah by whatever means necessary including war has been laid out yet you continue in your blindness. The true Muslims will not leave us alone if we pull out because they need to obey Allah and conquer the world.

Muhammad said:

"I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify to the fact that there is no god but Allah, and believe in me (that) I am the Messenger and in all that I have brought" (Muslim:C9B1N31).

Rick I know this is not enough for you since you are brainwashed. I am afraid that most will not realize the truth until it is too late.

Blinded by PC,

If America would stop attacking Islam, it would stop attacking us.

Let's bring our troops home, and stop the terrible slaughter.

Marian,

Still in the thrall of your hatred of Victoria I see. Get a life.

Rick,

Americans need to pull together against Islam whether one agrees with the president or not. Stop drinking the political kool aid of the radical left. The Dems love political power above the good of the country and GOP is filled with spineless jellyfish. Both parties are so intoxicated with PC that they could not see the truth about Islam if it slapped them in the face.

Peaceful Jihad in Great Britian

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1606207994859431269&hl=en

Rick said:

"the petty little issues that are so important"

Victoria is in deep denial, Rick. Read her posts. She pretends there is no Muslim violence in the world and believes Islam is a religion of peace. She believes she has "special ability" to discern the identity of posters on this forum and to understand the "mysteries" of the Koran. She spends an inordinate amount of time on this forum preaching her version of the "good islamic news" -but is unable to approach the real issues of Islam: Muslim women suffering in a repressive society, Muslim against Muslim violence, the hatefilled and vicious undercurrent that runs through the Koran.

These issues may be "petty" to you -but hold vast importance to me.

You should have more compassion for your "friend" Victoria. Her posts are not filled with joy and serenity. They are intensely self reflective. She is either repeating word for word the mosque pov on world issues or indiscreetly sharing personal information.

She is blinded and under a veil of deception. There are many ex-muslims who have great understanding of her circumstances. No situation is without hope. You should encourage her to seek help.

If our Dear Leader and World Class Hypocrite doesn't stop invading and occupying Muslim lands, slaughtering women and children by the thousands, and driving millions of families into refugee camps; our beloved country is going down.

Wake up people. Let's learn to cut our greedy consumption, develop alternative energy sources, and break our dependence on Middle East oil.

Read the entire thread the Muslims cannot support their positions. Islam is clearly anti-Christian and anti-Jew based on the Qur'an, the Haddith, and the actions of Muslims now going all the way back to Muhammad himself. They have have not refuted this truth and are therefore exposed.

The sad truth is that most Americans have been programed by the PC media, PC universities, and PC politicians not to discern this truth. No matter what the evidence shows the talking heads keep telling us that Islam is a religion of peace. These leaders and media types are blind guides and if they do not wake up our beloved country is going down.

And how does the sum total of deaths from all these incidednts: ...

'the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the train bombers in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani koranics, and the Filipino koranics.'

... compare with the countless thousands of women and children slaughtered by the U.S. and Israel in Palestine and Iraq.

Don't forget that the deaths from the ...

'Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers , the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers'

... are on the heads of Israel and our Dear Leader and World Class Hypocrite in the White house, since they took upon themselves to overthrow the legitimate governments in Palestine and Iraq creating chaos, in their greed for Muslim land and oil.

Contemporary Trivia??????

The conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the train bombers in the UK and Spain, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers , the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers , the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani koranics, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases and the Filipino koranics.

And who funds these acts of terror? Islamic Iran, the Third Axis of Evil and also the "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

And the "Crusaders" who saved Kuwait were who? And who was saved from ethnic cleansing in Bosnia and Kosovo??

Ah yes, here is CTCNL, with his usual predictable attack on Islam and all religion. I too am a skeptic when it comes to religion, but I’m sorry that this kind of trivia has to cloud the important issue of the criminal behavior of our government’s preemptive invasions and occupations of Muslim land in the Middle East.

BTW, I was not talking about the Crusades, but the Crusaders. It is still the same pinheaded idiots who are using the 'God is on our side' argument as justification for our land grab in the Middle East.

The Crusades? Talk about being out of date!!!

The modern Muslim:

With the "pwfft" i.e. Gabriel and the warmongering, womanizing, "holey not holy hallucinator" aka Mohammed as their guiding lights, what does one conclude about Islam?

A cult based on oil profits, terror, control, lies, fear of the sword, stoning, hand chopping and suicide bombers.

1. Ted is so worried about the repeated acts of terrorism by Muslims against non-Muslims. How about the repeated preemptive invasions and occupations of Muslim lands by the Crusaders Ted?

2. Muslims are not despised for refusing to integrate into the US and European societies. They have integrated quite well.

3. Muslims are not despised for refusing to condemn the atrocities in Iraq. The atrocities are performed by the U.S. invaders and occupiers. It is the U.S. and Israel who are despised by the world and considered to be the world’s only terrorist nations.

4. It is not the Muslims who should declare that Islam was not revealed by God. Thou Hypocrite, it is the Crusaders who should declare that Judeo-Christianity was not revealed by God.

Marian just can't get her petty liitle mind off the petty little issues that are so important to her dark little heart can she?

Victoria says:

"so you see marian, im kind of tenacious, also i resource and cross check everything."

Once again -I am not "insight" or "someone" or the various "anons" you have said I am. Your "tenacity to resource and cross check" is faulty and has led you to a false conclusion.

"you can see how this helps me in my persoanl study of islam."

You would be wise, Victoria, to reconsider your life choices. Anyone may be mistaken.

annoying, aint it?"

Not annoying, but confused and conflicted. If you were not self-centered, you would have long ago admitted your mistake and apologised to me.

The question is often asked " what should non-Muslims do to win the hearts and minds of Muslims?" when the question that should really be asked is " what should Muslims do to win the hearts and minds of non-Muslims?".

Muslims are now universally despised for several reasons.

1) The repeated acts of terrorism against non-Muslims and the generally implicit approval by the general populace of non-Muslims for these acts and the readiness to blame the US and the Jews for the acts. To this day most Muslims believe that the Jews orchestrated 9/11.

2) Their refusal to integrate into the societies that have made life so good for them, especially the west, and that have allowed them escape the misery that their own Muslim societies with their allegiance to an outdated Islamic system have inflicted on them.

3) Most importantly the internet and recent publications has revealed the truth about Islam and its founder, Muhammad. It is now well known that Muhammad was a psychopath who indulged in sex with children in his fifties, was a slave owner, had fathered an illegitimate son with his slave girl, 15 year old Maria who was also a Christian, carried out ethnic cleansing of Jews in Arabia and stole half of Arabia from them, insulted God by inventing Allah and making this evil god the sole deity for Muslims.

4) Their refusal to condemn atrocities in Iraq, Muslims upon Muslims and also the shameful Islamic apartheid practiced in Saudi Arabia where non-Muslims may not enter Mecca and Medina, may not openly worship anywhere in the kingdom, may not build churches, synagogues and other places of worship in Saudi Arabia. Muslims give implicit approval for the Islamic apartheid by continuing to do the hajj to Mecca, thereby saying that " the apartheid is fine with us".

The Muslims can do the following and, although it will take time, eventually Muslims will have won some respect from non-Muslims.

1) Declare that Islam was not revealed by God and admit that Islam is a harmful faith. Muslims should condemn outright Muhammad and Islam. Muslims should stop insulting God by associating Muhammad and Allah with Him.

2) Stop doing the hajj. By doing so they will send a powerful message that they will not tolerate apartheid. If Saudi Arabia stops the apartheid and the first church is built in Mecca and in Medina, then the hajj may be resumed.

3) Return half of Saudi Arabia, the western half of Saudi Arabia, to its rightful owners, the Jews. Relocate all Muslims from Palestine and the West Bank to Muslim countries.

4) Agree that all Muslim immigration to non-Muslims countries be halted until secular democratic societies are built in all Muslim countries. This may take many years. Right now it is too easy for Muslims to escape the oppression in Muslim societies by escaping to non-Muslim countries, especially to the West. They have no incentive to fight oppression at home.

It will take time. But eventually Muslims may become an integral part of civilized human society.

Thank you Victoria, for shining light and reason in a dark place.

Marian and Isaac would have us believe that our policy of preemptive invasion and occupation of Muslim land is perfectly normal.

We are within our rights to slaughter countless thousands of women and children, and force millions of families into refugee camps.

These people may have tended their herds and orchards on this land for millennia, but it happens to be situated over the world’s richest oil fields.

We can’t be expected to reduce our consumption of oil can we? Of course not people, get out of the way. This land is ours.

This is the long disjointed post Victoria left for me on another thread.

MARIAN- you'll notice the use of the same phrase in each post
one anonymous (or a different anonymous name like "someone or insight")
then one with your name

akk these posts are from different boards
but you'll notice the one with your name, and the anonymous posting on the salman rushdie question (example two) use the EXACT SAME PHRASE.

AND THEN THE LAST ONE AT 6:43 am
AND 6:58 AM

ALSO INSIGHT AT 6:11 AM THIS MORNING on the middle east blog(which i didnt include here)

so okay marian-
even your above statement-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"
Sure I'm the anon posters (I do occasionally agree with them)."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
certainly bears the grain of truth within it- many a truth is said in jest they say

also, each post is one anonymous, and one marian
but there is no way to deny the second example with the exact same words- that definitively proves you post sometimes anonymous sometimes with your name (on different blogs)
EXAMPLE ONE***********************

ANONYMOUS POST THEN MARIAN POST
SOMEONE :
Victoria, Victoria like we care what you are doing right now. You are being very SELF- ABSORBED these days. It is time for you to get a life!!!

September 17, 2007 8:37 AM

marian :
Victoria:

*You are SELF-ABSORBED. Why don't you spend some *time in a Muslim country before you declare *yourself an Islamic sage?
Posted on September 17, *2007 03:11
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

EXAMPLE TWO*************************
Anonymous:
"it is unfortunate that many westerners make conclusions of what they imagine islam to be based on incidences of behaviors of muslims instead of what the actual texts and doctirnes contend."

I "imagine" Islam is a death cult because Muslims in every corner of the earth are engaged in a violent "jihad".

Victoria "imagines" Islam is the religion of peace because she reads an English translation of the Koran.

Who has lost touch with reality?

"my own personal experiences in american mosques"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*You are SELF-ABSORBED. Why don't you spend some* *time in a Muslim country before you declare
*yourself an Islamic sage? **
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Posters have repeatedly confronted you with the reality of Islam. And you repeatedly twist away from that truth. Just because you wish Islam to be a religion of peace does not make it so.. Read the news. Muslims create violence and discord day after day.. Your interpretations of the Koran are false. Islam is a death cult and its aim is hatred and violence.

Victoria, you consistently turn your head and walk away from the ugly truths of Islam. You flee reality, but will return again and again to spin your peaceful Muslim myth. Give it up."

But please don't stop posting. Your inability to address Islamic violence is a lesson to every reader here.

September 17, 2007 12:01 PM |

EXAMPLE THREE**********************
~~~~~~~~~~~
marian :
Victoria:

Has Allah given you supernatural insight and control over posters and what happens on this forum?

Your posts point to the wisdom of others who have ceased to post during Ramadan.

You're becoming SELF CONSUMED..

September 18, 2007 6:43 AM

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Anonymous :
"ALLAH is the TOLERANT" and "So you should NOT BE EXTREMISTS"

Ok People. Victoria has given us the word on Muslims. No need to watch the media reports of Muslim terrorism and the ensuing violence.

Gee, Victoria, I'm so glad you cleared that up. Maybe next you will post on World Hunger or the AIDS Pandemic?

September 18, 2007 6:58 AM
````````````````````````````````````

so you see marian, im kind of tenacious, also i resource and cross check everything.

you can see how this helps me in my persoanl study of islam.

annoying, aint it?

ps- the cowardice of anonymous posting is one of my pet peeves

now this is a forgotten thread here- just us chickens-
but since you demanded proof- well- here it is in black and white
doesnt take a rocket scientist

September 19, 2007 4:51 PM

its really possible to discuss an issue of such an inflammtory nature with someone who has the opposite view-

i really would welcome anyone who has a zionist position and can lay it out in a moral and ethical way-

but it just had rotten roots and the tree has borne only the fruit of that corruption

certainly not everyone in america is bad- im american born and im not bad- but my government has at least in my lifetime been in an endless series of unjust and just wrong military actions around the world

if someone asks me to justify my gov'ts foreign policies, i have to admit they are basically motivated by self interest.

it doesnt mean im motivated by the same, only that i have the power to observe objectivey and come to conclusions.

in the same vein- criticizing the policies or even formation of israel is not any indictment of jewish people- and definitely not judaism as it was started by atheists.

there are thousamds of american jews who refuse to go to israel- out of conscientious objection to the policies and actions of the state of israel

the kind of self criticism offered by the author mr patel is the most excellent way to encourage dialogue.

i encourage everyone here to read the post by dr. lazare on yom kippur and atonement.

but it has to be met with the same spirit.

if there are people who support zionism, for real reasons and not because they saved their pennies as a child to 'plant a tree in israel" but logically and ethically reasoned points-

id love to hear them.

id say the real reason why so many continue to question israels right to be is because israel has not offered a compelling reason anyone of conscience can get behind.

im still waiting for that reason.

btw- the names called find no resonance in my heart- so they slide off my back- but i wish someone had something more to offer...
waiting respectfully

well - personally i always preface wikipedia as a source with an apology, and only to back up other reputable resources.

so its a start- but i am pretty vocal about wikipedia as a questionable source of any definition

namecalling?- well- it doesnt answer any questions-but if you feel you must

as ive stated oft and repeatedly-
to confuse anti-semitism with anti-zionism is not unusual or particularly relevant

but it doesn deflect attention away from the issues because it is so emotional for so many-
they see it and just go off and their reason fails.
back on topic- there were many points made- care to address the points?

Excellent posts, Isaac.

Victoria is a vapid forum-addict whose repetitive posts always carry the same bigoted theme.

AND if you use "self consumed, self absorbed, or self centered" in your post: she'll figure out that Isaac is just another of my many pseudonyms..

She very clever at figuring things out. (at least she thinks she is..)

i just wanted to clarify.

i mean idiot as a person who would claim, despite all empirical evidence, that:

"the biggest terro in the world right now isnt some muslim extremists somewhere"

Wow, this guy must be a genius.

as for your second post:

uhm ... your an incoherent idiot.

(and show me some footnotes)

yes, wilhelm marr did in fact coin the term. look it up at your local library. or check this out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism

go to "etymology and uses"

"as for your contention that 'some people' though all tan people from shem-
you really need to validate that otherwise it is just your own theory"

how about one from the web: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic

look under "origin".

"you can just make things up to back your agenda-"

right back at you. provide me a footnote on this guy inventing a term 70 years earlier than anyone else had ever heard of it: Moritz Steinschneider

"besides- weve dsicussed the meaning of antisemitism ad nauseum here and i think its a distraction"

in response to an article about antisemitism i question this assertion. especially when people don't understand the term, and then say things like "semitic people can't be antisemitic". You know, since there are no "semitic" people. (and to believe that there are, you are granting the claims of 19th-20th century pseudo-scientists that believed the "aryan" race is superior to the "semitic" people. By the way, "aryan" is made up too.)

"any coment on the actions of israel in the present?"

about ... what? the excellent cafe's and night clubs that israel has? the friendly people? the right to defend herself?

i sincerely hope you are not justifying the hatred of Jews because of governmental policy ...

"how about the israeli raid into syria under cover of night on the 6th of sept?"

and ... this speaks to muslim antisemitism (remember the article here) how?

the biggest terro in the world right now isnt some muslim extremists somewhere

its the very real military machine of israel preparing another holocaust on palestinians
and keeping destablization of that region

and the united states beating the drums of war against iran to protect the security of israel-

why should we protect israel?
weve given them weapons, money everything- helped them steal the land water and build walls to keep out the victims

why dont the israelis have any troops in iraq if their such great allies?

(i dont mean some prison guards)

and there are many many many jewish people who feel this way- so you can no longer clai it is anti-jewishness.

protecting the zionist state may well instigate the biggest war zone in history-
are we any safer in america for that?
or is that the biggest security risk we have ever faced?

israel wouldnt do it for us, or anything for that matter.
why should we do it for them?

the biggest anti-zionist groups ARE JEWISH PEOPLE

http://www.secure-x-001.net/SecureGeo/Issue/SecureObservationComments.asp?IssueFunction=103&Site=109&Portal=1

wapo story about israeli night raid
read and learn

weve all read books

the term was first used by this man-

Moritz Steinschneider (March 30, 1816, Prostějov (Prossnitz), Moravia – 1907) was a Bohemian bibliographer and Orientalist. He received his early instruction in Hebrew from his father, Jacob Steinschneider (b. 1782; d. March, 1856), who was not only an expert Talmudist, but was also well versed in secular science. The house of the elder Steinschneider was the rendezvous of a few progressive Hebraists, among whom was his brother-in-law, the physician and writer Gideon Brecher.
Steinschneider means "stonecutter," or more literally, stone tailor. This likely identifies the profession of gem cutter.

as for your contention that 'some people' though all tan people from shem-
you really need to validate that otherwise it is just your own theory

the distinction is not a tan skinned one- but one of language.

are you seriously going to argue about the etymology of semitic languages???

you can just make things up to back your agenda-

besides- weve dsicussed the meaning of antisemitism ad nauseum here and i think its a distraction

any coment on the actions of israel in the present?

how about the israeli raid into syria under cover of night on the 6th of sept?

eboo - great article. I too wonder where moderate muslim voices are. I sincerely wish i could hear them!

to everyone else that is utterly confused about the word "antisemitism" ...

"semititic" is a term that idenitifies a body of languages. These languages originated and proliferated in the Ancient Near East (the middle east). Among them are Arabic and Hebrew, but also Phoenician, Akkadian, Aramaic, etc. Certainly, the term semite stems from this usage, but the distinction was made by people who believed all the tan skinned people came from Shem (and hence s(h)emite) in the bible! Such irresponsible scientific inquiry has long been abandoned! No such group ("semites") exists!

Only in 1879 was the term "antisemitism" coined by a man named Wilhelm Marr ... He coined the term to separate his hatred for Jews (as a people) from people who were anti-Jewish (as a religion). So yes, the term antisemitism ONLY speaks to hatred for Jews! There are no "semitic" people! For those who dispute this, GO READ A BOOK!

eboo - great article. I too wonder where moderate muslim voices are. I sincerely wish i could hear them!

to everyone else that is utterly confused about the word "antisemitism" ...

"semititic" is a term that idenitifies a body of languages. These languages originated and proliferated in the Ancient Near East (the middle east). Among them are Arabic and Hebrew, but also Phoenician, Akkadian, Aramaic, etc. Certainly, the term semite stems from this usage, but the distinction was made by people who believed all the tan skinned people came from Shem (and hence s(h)emite) in the bible! Such irresponsible scientific inquiry has long been abandoned! No such group ("semites") exists!

Only in 1879 was the term "antisemitism" coined by a man named Wilhelm Marr ... He coined the term to separate his hatred for Jews (as a people) from people who were anti-Jewish (as a religion). So yes, the term antisemitism ONLY speaks to hatred for Jews! There are no "semitic" people! For those who dispute this, GO READ A BOOK!

Great posts Victoria. You have hit the nail on the head. The question is: forget ancient history, what can we do now?

The answer is simple:

1. Stop all aid to the illegitimate ‘State of Israel’ immediately.

2. Declare a no-fly zone from the northern border of Egypt to the Northern border of Lebanon, bounded by the Mediterranean on the west and Syria and Jordan on the east.

3. Give the Israelis x days to vacate the pre-1947 borders of the British Palestine Mandate, including the illegitimate ‘State of Israel’, the West Bank and Gaza.

4. For the sake of humanity, we must offer the Israelis a new home in the U.S. Texas is the logical spot.

So the message to the Israelis is:

Vacate the 5 Million Jews from Palestine and bring them to Texas.

Don’t worry so much, you will love Texas. We will partition it so that your half is contiguous, while the other half (belonging to native Texan’s) is divided into separated quarters (similar to your current deal in Palestine).

You will have the prime real estate including the Dallas-Fort Worth and Crawford areas.

You will have control of the fresh water supply.

You can keep your Army, Navy, Air Force and nuclear weapons. We will back you up with the full military power of the world’s last remaining super power.

We will immediately stop all federal aid to the native population, while continuing your $3 B annual aid.

Feel free to launch all the settlements that you wish in the native half’s real estate.

Assassinate the opposition leadership to create chaos on the other side.

See, it will just be a Grand Old Party.

I’m sure that you will get along famously with our Dear Leader and World Class Hypocrite in the White House.

to Eboo Patel

I'm sorry. I meant my poem to go on your poetry commentary.

To Eboo Patel

Another poem:

The door it opened slowly,
My father he came in,
I was nine years old.
And he stood so tall above me,
His blue eyes they were shining
And his voice was very cold.

He said, I've had a vision
And you know I'm strong and holy,
I must do as I've been told.
So he started up the mountain,
I was running, he was walking,
And his axe was made of gold.

Well, the trees they got much smaller,
The lake -a lady's mirror,
We stopped to drink some wine.
Then he threw the bottle over.
Broke a minute later
And he put his hand on mine.

Thought I saw an eagle
But it might have been a vulture,
I never could decide.
Then my father built an altar,
He looked once behind his shoulder,
He knew I would not hide.

You who build these altars now
To sacrifice these children,
You must not do it anymore.
A scheme is not a vision
And you never have been tempted
By the devil or the LORD.

You who stand above them now,
Your hatchets blunt and bloody,
You were not there before,
When I lay upon a mountain
And my fathers hand was trembling
With the beauty of the WORD.

And if you call me brother now,
Forgive me if I inquire,
Just according to whose plan?

When it all comes down to dust
I will kill you if I must,
I will help you if I can.

When it all comes down to dust
I will help you if I must,
I will kill you if I can.

L Cohen

instead of arguing over the decades long and unresolved history and what was and who punched who first-

WHY NOT DO SOMETHING CONSTRUCTIVE AND TALK ABOUT WHAT IS??

RIGHT NOW?

for instance- do we americans want to go bomb some brown people in iran to protect some white people in israel?

israel is not america!
their concerns and safety are no longer our responsibility

300 billion dollars in 60 years?
time to cut the cord

its not anti-semitic or anti-jewish to say ISRAEL AND ZIONISM ARE A RACIST APARTHEID REGIME

the world has been silenced for 60 years with that victims plaintive cry

isnt it time someone talked about the issues today?

current events

Israeli Panel Declares Gaza a 'Hostile Entity'
Strip's Supply of Fuel, Electricity to Be Cut

By Scott Wilson
Washington Post Foreign Service
Thursday, September 20, 2007; Page A14

JERUSALEM, Sept. 19 -- Israel's security cabinet on Wednesday declared the Gaza Strip a "hostile entity" and said it would begin cutting electricity and fuel to the Hamas-run territory in an effort to stop near-daily rocket fire into Israel.

The designation amounts to labeling Gaza an enemy state, in the view of Israel's government, and allows it to apply pressure on the strip short of a military invasion while pursuing peace talks with the U.S.-backed Palestinian government in the West Bank. Israel's new policy, decided by the prime minister and other key ministers, could deepen the political divide between Gaza and the West Bank.

If implemented fully, the decision holds potentially grave humanitarian consequences for the strip's roughly 1.5 MILLION residents, who rely on imported food, medicine and energy. It also poses a challenge to the Bush administration's peacemaking efforts, coming on the first day of Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice's visit here to promote a U.S.-sponsored meeting of Israeli, Palestinian and regional leaders proposed for this year.

Asked if she supported Israel's decision, Rice said Hamas is "a hostile entity to the United States, as well." She said that "we will not abandon the innocent Palestinians in Gaza" and that Gaza and the West Bank "are both constituent entities in the to-be future Palestinian state."

Gaza's crossings into Israel have been closed for all but emergency aid since June when Hamas, a radical Islamic movement, seized control of the strip after defeating forces from the secular Fatah party. Under the Israeli decision, "additional sanctions will be placed on the Hamas regime in order to restrict the passage of various goods to the Gaza Strip and reduce the supply of fuel and electricity." It did not say when the new sanctions would begin.

"It's not a secret that Hamas is a terrorist organization," Tzipi Livni, Israel's foreign minister, said at a news conference here after meeting with Rice. "Even though when it comes to humanitarian needs we have our responsibilities, on the other hand all the needs which are more than humanitarian needs will not be supplied by Israel."

Fawzi Barhoum, a spokesman for the movement, called the Israeli decision "a declaration of full-fledged war on the Gaza Strip" in a statement on a Hamas Web site. "The steps are in PREPARATION FOR A MILITARY OPERATION that is looming."

Palestinian gunmen, including those from Hamas's military wing, have fired thousands of crude rockets, known generically as Qassams, into southern Israel since the start of the most recent Palestinian uprising in September 2000. Last week, a rocket strike on an army base north of Gaza wounded more than 60 Israeli soldiers.

With a flight time of a minute or less, the rockets have proved impossible to stop. Israeli military ground operations, artillery fire and assassinations have had little effect in deterring the attacks, which have killed 12 Israelis and wounded hundreds of others.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and his defense minister, Ehud Barak, have come under increasing public pressure to stop the attacks. Barak, a former prime minister with ambitions to return to the job, first raised the idea of cutting services to Gaza this month and suggested Wednesday that the step would take Israel closer to a broad ground invasion of the strip.

Israel occupied Gaza in 1967, maintaining a military presence there until it withdrew soldiers and settlers in the fall of 2005 without negotiating the terms with Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, a Fatah leader. Four months later, Hamas, which celebrated Israel's Gaza withdrawal as a victory for its military wing, won parliamentary elections that gave it day-to-day control of the Palestinian government.

Since Hamas's ELECTION VICTORY, the link between the West Bank and Gaza has withered because of Israel's frequent closures of the strip's PASSENGER AND CARGO CROSSINGS. The Israeli government has argued in domestic courts that it no longer occupies Gaza, contending that it is no longer responsible for the welfare of its residents, most of whom are refugees.

Livni, another aspiring prime minister, said Israel did not want to split the territories. But she said the parallel governments required Israel to adopt distinct policies toward each, declaring that the decision Wednesday was consistent with international law. She said the decision was designed in part to convince the Palestinians in Gaza that "Israeli security is part of their interests."

But Noga Eitan, a spokeswoman for the Israeli human rights group Gisha, called the security cabinet decision "a legal, ethical and moral fallacy that amounts to collective punishment of the civilian population." A number of international humanitarian agencies active in Gaza also criticized the decision as illegal.

"It doesn't matter what the definition of the government in Gaza is," Eitan said. "International law prohibits the damage of civilians, and Israel is responsible for distinguishing between terrorists and innocent men, women and children."

Gaza requires 197 megawatts of power, more than half of which is delivered over power lines from Israel. About 60 megawatts is generated by Gaza's single power plant, which runs on Israeli-delivered fuel.

"We don't agree with any policy that could further deteriorate the humanitarian situation in Gaza," said Nimr Hamad, a senior adviser to Abbas. "We do not accept that anyone should be punished, apart from the acts of Hamas and the other militants in Gaza."

Rice arrived for a two-day visit designed to push Abbas and Olmert toward completing an agenda for a U.S.-sponsored peace conference, tentatively scheduled for November in Washington.

Abbas has threatened in recent days to boycott the meeting unless a detailed framework can be established ahead of time, one that sets out a binding timetable for the creation of a Palestinian state. Olmert prefers to announce a general set of principles, calling them "intentions" rather than specific goals.

UNBELIEVABLE
IF ANY CAN FIND SOME RATIONALE FOR THIS- EXPLAIN IT TO ME

Volume 8, Book 73, Number 135:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "The strong is not the one who overcomes the people by his strength, but the strong is the one who controls himself while in anger."

The USA is going to spend minimum a TRILLION dollars in that hell hole called Iraq and your complaining of a few billion to Israel?! LOL! Arabs and their lovers are really warped. The USA gives Egypt BILLIONS of dollars and they HATE us! YOU say give none money. If the USA stopped giving aid to Israel her neighbors would swallow her alive and the world wouldn't even blink. I look for the day when the USA turns against Israel because THEN the Messiah will return and ALL who hate Israel or speak against Israel will be destroyed from memory INCLUDING the good ol boy USA.

Joe:
We are wasting our time. Guys like Suliman want a caliphate, their women in burqhas, their bodies unwashed, and their minds clear of all but hatred. They blame the Jewish people for their failings because of laziness. It's just easier. Those like Suliman experienced deep shame at being defeated by Israel not once, not twice, but three times. This shame motivates all that folks like Suliman think about. Let him go back to the desert and we shall hope that his livestock can move quickly. Those Muslims who want peace know that we should not paint any people of any religion with such a broad brush as Suliman does. He needs to get over being defeated and get a job where he lives in the 20th century, not the 5th. Good thing there's oil over there or his brothers in hatred would have to find real work.

Perhaps denying a holocaust and holding a conference to debate the facts is not so anti-jewish as some would have you believe; especially when its attended by some hasidic jews.

As they say in regards to media: NO COVERAGE IS BAD COVERAGE.

Brother Eboo,

Your opinions are good in theory but flawed. How is one to hold ones tongue when being unjustly oppressed?

Also, strange name you have, Eboo. Is it a spelling variation of Abu?

Regards,
Ali.

To all who say anti-zionism is anti-semitism:

It's a matter of language and anyone with a high school education can resort to rhetoric to cloud the difference.

Before the internet age, much of the news was so sterile in regards to the deeds of nations. This is why they say ignorance is bliss. Now its a case of throwing stones: be prepared for at least few thrown back at you.

"Einul Jabbar? Einul Mutakabbiroon?" God will ask. Be prepared to answer.

JOE:

So what if I sound racist? at least there is a basis for my anger at the WASP establishment of the US - it may sound racist but its not prejudice - I speak from fact - look up world history.

Any answers to my questions posted?
do you deny that Israel has gotten charity from the US in billions; taken per capita would be more the the Israel citizen then its own citizen?
do you deny that the holocaust occurred in europe?

My opinions are my own and I will freeeely express them in any way I want so take your Masal Hovv and ....

The primary source of Islamic anti-Judaism (which I define as antagonism to Judaism as religion) is the ideology of Islamic replacement theology which contends that while the Koran is "pure," the Torah had been "adulterated and corrupted."

Under Dhimmi law enforcement Jewish communities in Muslim societies lived under conditions similar to that of African-American under the Southern Jim Crow regime. Furthermore, at times conditions were even worse: Muslim riots against occurred in Granada in 1066, in Fez in 1465; throughout Libya in 1785; in Algiers during 1805, 1815 and 1830; in Marrakesh between 1864 and 1880. Decrees ordering the destruction of synagogues were enacted in Egypt and Syria in 1014, 1293-4, 1301-2; in Iraq from 854-859 and in 1344) and Yemen in 1676. There were also periods of a total ban on Judaism: in Almohad and Almoravid Spain from 1090 until 1212; in Yemen in 1165 and 1678; Morocco in 1275, 1465 and 1790-92; in Iraq in 1333 and 1344 and in Isfahan (Iran) in 1656. History doesn't record these periods as expulsions because the local Jewish communities adopted a strategy of pretending to be Muslim, instead of mass migration as was the strategy of European Jewry.

To Suliman:

I am deeply moved by the irony of your comments being posted on a board about Muslim hatred of Jews.

One of the better things about boards like this is that it allows liberal "white boy" elements to see the reality of what folks like you are like. I really loved the bits where you raged against "stupid white boys."

Not racist at all. Nope... I wonder if the good folks who read this will notice.

It is Mazel Tov by the way. It means "good luck."

Again, please stop the greivence theatre. Peace can only come from two steps. One, recognizing the other. Two, recognizing oneself. There is unfortunately a conclusion that people in the West don't like to admit. Admitting it, means admitting a failure of our values.

If people won't recognize you and can't look at their own deeds, peace is impossible.

Is it all possible that folks like you are the cause of this?

Do you ever look in a mirror? Can you make a legitimate response to any of the questions I posted?

JD:

Israel is the biggest charity case in the world.
Since 1948, Israel has gotten more money in charity from the US government alone in foreign aid money than any other country.

How much? The US has given Israel more per citizen then the US has given its own citizens. Anybody have the balls to talk to their representative about this?

Its a stain on the Arab soul that so many arabs are poor considering HOW wealthy Arab nations are because of oil! Consider those Arabs under Hamas rule, they beg money from the USA when their neighbors are using American dollars to light their cigars. Shame on you Arabs for whining and asking us for cheese.

Joe:

As soon as you personally start taking responsibility for the stolen-State of Israel's criminal acts; all of them, including the ones your rabbis denies - so as sheep do you all.

You have a army now? whoopee dee do. supplied by the west no less. So answer me this? when are you and yours going to Germany to get whats yours? I mean dignity, if you care to know.

Mazol Hoff

Bob, dont be a boob.

You forget there were many russians killed in WW2 and some 1 million gypsies and others. Do they not deserve the same reparations. I am only speaking of justice and equality. White-boy americans are such pricks when it comes to defending the rhetoric preached by their pastors in support of jews; no logic, no argument just some tag lines: justice for all, the persuit of happiness, yada yada until it comes to a person of color then you all become deaf, blind, and dumb.

Hypocrites.

To Suliman:

As I asked most prominently: When will you people accept responsibilty for your own actions?

There would not have been war if your side did not start it and perpetuate it. And please, enough with all of the greivance theatre. If Jews fought to the standards of Arabs - who slaughter each other at the drop of a hat, and are commiting genocide in Darfur as we speak, there would be no Arabs. In fact, you are lucky you are dealing with soft hearted Jews. I assure you that if any European nation - or G-d help you, America were attacked as savagely and continually as Israel is attacked, the response would not be nearly as restrained. Israel is not perfect, but at their absolute worst, they do not even approach the level of criminality of the Palistinians.

As to the holy places, if you mean the Temple Mount. Please spare me. A Jew prays towards Jerusalem, a Muslim prys towards Mecca. Please do not think that putting a Mosque on someone else's holiest site somehow means that it is yours, or now more important to you than it is to them. Or, are you arguing that you have more right to the Temple than the people who built it?

As to getting smacked again, we didn't have an army then. We do now. If you push hard enough, the liberal elements in Israel will keep getting more and more silent. Then you'll get to see 1967 all over again.

To all the idolators jumping in the middle of this conversation.... GET A LIFE.

Last time I checked none of the monotheistic religions cared for your "practices."

Secondly, you risk exposing the intimate relationship your country shares with Israel when you open your mouth; so I suggest you stay out.

Thanks for your cooperation, appu.

Sulaiman:
No, you don't have to listen to stories about the Holocaust in school; you can continue to be ignorant,hateful, and uninformed as it's clear that is your wish. To ask if any "reparations" that were made were sufficient for the 6,000,00 killed was meant by you solely to inflame others. You shame yourself. Go in peace to your Madrasah and continue to be ignorant - we that want peace have no need of you or your ilk.

Jewish leaders are not preaching hate, someone harped?

But money and votes talk and every jewish congregation in the world supports ISRAEL unconditionally.

Because they have a government committing the acts of barbarism in the name of pre-emptive defense, jews believe they have an obligation to support Israel; nevermind that its the case of wolf in sheeps clothing.

The Palestinians don't have representative government (they had one: till it was splintered, on purpose by good ole israel - read jimmy carter's book: apartheid); they have many groups but are designated terrorist because its not a government.

Israel does not care to make peace; bottom line.

A recent event, the 9/11 Unity Walk, gathered leaders and believers from many faiths to commemorate the victims of 9/11 and fight against forms of hatred such as anti-semitism. To view a video of the event, visit http://cordover.blogspot.com

jahudite:

Does it matter? Since when do you follow the tenets of judaism? I thought your rabbis told you what to and how to follow your religion. Sheep lead by the blind. Don't forget Jesus whipped your elders for their lack of disciple of doctrine. So if your rabbis dont follow doctrine, how can anyone expect you to be faithful.

Miriam,

Your comments display a problem of historical anachronism. The Persian empire of which you spoke was not Muslim, but Zoroastrian and existed between 550-330 BCE. Judaism predates Islam by several 1000 years. If anything, Muslims borrowed from Judaism, not the other way around.

TO JOE:

The one who commits injustice is a sinner. The one who accepts injustice without putting up a fight is also a sinner.

Unjust jewish occupation of islamic holy places is the question. And if you believe tearing down our holy places to construct temples not seen since the days of Solomon is viable, dream on. As you said yourself, "after 3 generations there are no refugees" I say to your type and the israel government which is founded on zionism (which you clearly undermined by stating that after 3 generations there are no refugees) - If that is the case, why should the palestinians have to pay with their blood and land (which israel sheds and steals) for the atrocities committed by your white brethren? If you have any type of shame go and get from the ones that took of your lives and your more than european lands and properties (which were settled for more than 3 generations). No you would never dare steal from the ones with the stick, for fear of another slap, would you? While we are at it, is this why I have to listen to the stories about the holocaust over and over in school? Didn't you all get reparations and such already?

anti jews, christians, hindu's, anyone not islamic is part of the koran, and as long as there is a death cult called islam it will always be that way.

Gark

Of course there are abusive priests as there are abusive imams.

But your Islam was founded by a murderer who was also a pedophile and a rapist. His taking to bed 15 year old Saffiya whom he had widowed the same day was a clear case of rape.

This discussion is fascinating, and I applaud all who are taking part. My impression is that for hundreds of years, perhaps more than 1000 years, Muslims and Jews generally lived in peace in many communities from Spain to North Africa to the Middle East. This shared history of Muslims and Jews seems largely to have been forgotten in light of the events that occurred in 1948. Jews, who had been displaced from their homes and possessions, were given a place to live by the victors of WWII. Unfortunately, the influx of a large Jewish population to that land that displaced some, but not all, Muslim residents. As a Jew, and a relative of a displaced people who moved to Israel after after the Holocaust, I have to be sympathetic to those Palestinians who were also caught up in events beyond their control and displaced. And I hope that displaced Palestinians and their Muslim brothers and sisters can be sympathetic to the plight of the Jews, who were also caught in events that they also could not control. Messages of hate on either side, and the cycle of violence they foster, create an environment of fear and insecurity that prevent people from living ordinary lives, from enjoying their families, and from practicing their faiths in peace. In addition, the cycle of violence diverts needed resources from economic, intellectual and cultural development to weapons and security. This makes us all poorer. The only beneficiaries of messages of hate are the preachers themselves, because of the political power they gain by blaming others. I am glad to see that there are Muslims who do not preach messages of hate; most of what we see in the press is otherwise. To my knowledge, and it is small, Jewish leaders especially those in America, are not preaching messages of hate. If there are any such leaders, they do not speak for me. On this evening of the Jewish Day of Atonement, I will be praying that all of us who revere the G-d of Abraham, whether Jewish, Muslim or Christian, can live together in peace.

Ted Baines:

Judaism was borne of genocide. Act I: The Final Solution to the Canannite Problem. The Israelites, per the commandment of their false god (all gods are false, as you well know), killed all the Philistines and Canaanites. Plus their animals. God so hates animals of the wrong persuasion. Act II: Hitler follows the Old Testament. Genocide on a racial basis. Just like the Israelites. Act III: Israel carries out its Final Solution to the Palestinian Problem. What goes around comes around.

Mozel tav!

Christians molest little boys. How about them priests here in the USA! Christians carried out the the oh-so-Christian Holocaust of the Jews. Totally, like, in the time-honored traditions of Jesus, dude.

Praise the Lord!

No doubt Muslim antisemitism exists, and it is vile. But we hear much less about the background and ideology of Theodor Herzl, avid admirer of the German Kaiser, Cecil J. Rhodes, Otto von Bismarck and the French and British colonialists of his age, and even ultra-racist Richard Wagner (!), who were, when it came to the Middle East, ipso facto racists, more specifically, anti-Arab and anti-Persian racists. The idea of the age for such a mentality was colonial settlement, settlement, particularly for the Teutons, of those "empty" and "poorly used" Slavic lands to the East, as well as such lands in the Middle East. Herzl's adoration for things Teutonic, and his aversion to Slavs (and Arabs as well) is a matter of record.

Footnote: For a recent take on the more modern results of the Herzl/Zionist ideology, read Israeli historian Ilan Pappe's "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine." It was in the works, and openly embraced by Ben Gurion & Co., decades before the late '40s. And my Jewish wife agrees, as do many others, Jewish and Goyish alike, who acquaint themselves with this historical background.

Colonialism was, and is, racist. Let not the pot call the kettle black.

It is hard to believe that Islam could endorse a believe based in violence. From my readings, I have learned that Persians were the first occupiers to allow the Jewish community in which it occupied the right to worship their God as they saw fit. They allowed Jewish communities to flourish in spite of its occupations.
Many of the Jewish community laws and behaviors are patterned at the Muslim laws of behavior. There are many likenesses as well as differences. This is how we grow in knowledge by acknowledging differences and embracing new ideas. Without this willingness to defer, there can be no advancement of humankind. It is not a sin to embrace another culture's beliefs. It is a sin to be intollerant. This is the thing wars are made of. No one knows where heaven is. But everyone must die. Our quality of life depends upon how we treat others. And that quality of life will make itself known while we are yet alive. There is no knowlege of the hereafter, only what we imagine to believe.

It is hard to believe that Islam could endorse a believe based in violence. From my readings, I have learned that Persians were the first occupiers to allow the Jewish community in which it occupied the right to worship their God as they saw fit. They allowed Jewish communities to flourish in spite of its occupations.
Many of the Jewish community laws and behaviors are patterned at the Muslim laws of behavior. There are many likenesses as well as differences. This is how we grow in knowledge by acknowledging differences and embracing new ideas. Without this willingness to defer, there can be no advancement of humankind. It is not a sin to embrace another culture's beliefs. It is a sin to be intollerant. This is the thing wars are made of. No one knows where heaven is. But everyone must die. Our quality of life depends upon how we treat others. And that quality of life will make itself known while we are yet alive. There is no knowlege of the hereafter, only what we imagine to believe.

Thank you for this commentary. As a Jew, on the eve of Yom Kippur, our holiest if days, I can pray for reconciliation while the intellectual part of me denies the possibility. Hatred of others is a big business these days fueled by beliefs that have little, usually no, basis in fact. I wish I could say that I don't understand but I do and it is tragic indeed. When zealots associated with any religion preach hatred and mistrust we need to be mindful that these are calculating, clear-minded individuals whose aims are to further their own continued employment. They aren't radicals because they truly believe in what they say; they are terrorists-as-businessmen who don't want to see their awful life's work undone by others with a peaceful, reasoned agenda. They are not warriors of the faith but, rather, common criminals who profit from their feigned hatred of others.

Abbas,Abdulamteen,Arif,
How shameful of you to pretend to be Muslim under Muslim names-u were never Muslims in the first palce-stop this undignified game.

To Umar:

When do the Palestinians - who had a state created for them called Jordan - have to take responsibility for their own actions? Who started the shooting in 1948? Who is it who bombs something (usually women and children) everytime there looks like there will be a peace agreement? Who democratically elected a terrorist organization whose charter calls not just for the destruction of Israel, but quotes a Hadith about the death of Jews everywhere?

People talk of injustice and collective punishment. How is it possible to make peace with those who do not recognize you? What if the collective democratically elects a government that commits acts of war on a daily basis?

Do you really think that the Jews have no right to their own homeland? Do you really think that the Palestinians ever had a state there in all of history? Do you really think that the Jews ever stopped living there? Do you really think that they ever put up a "for sale" sign?

People talk about "refugees." What of the nearly one million Jews who fled Arab lands for Israel? While we are at it, after three generations, you are not a refugee.

Could you perhaps put your bile down long enough to realize that the Palestinians never fail to fail. Could you realize that peace would have been made long ago if not for their violent and barbaric ways?

Most Muslims cannot differentiate between Jews and Israel. They feel those are synonymous. In fact many Muslims believe that if Moses was ruling Israel today, we would have piece.

Many people in the West also believe that opposing or critising Israeli policies is antisemitism.

As long those mis-understands are removed on both sides, the antisemitism will be miscostrued. Knowledgeable people from both side of the spectrum must step forward.

Who wants to meet me half way.

Dear Autor,

I read your opinions.
I think that your opinions are not deep and not real.
Because:
I read much more books about this thema. Origin of antisemitism is in the unjust of İsrail governments and in the racism of İsrailiens.
For exemple: İsrail have nüclear weapons..What? Why and Which have this nüclearism?
Because this is the cause of passion imperial, because: The idea tigris and europhırat of İsrail nation..
Best regards

First to all those who would say I am anti-jewish, I will say emphatically: NO, I am not. However, I HATE the state of ISRAEL. Are the rest of my unafraid, forward-thinking muslim brothers willing to publicly acknowledge this? Could you and would you say this to a group of jews, Eboo? OR are you afraid your bread will not be buttered if you speak out?

Secondly, Jews are applauded for being zionist. And any means undertaken to further the cause of zionism are considered within the limits. Regardless of the nature of acts; illegal, immoral (such as poision the wells of palestinian villages or bombing apartment building, leveling streets) it is overlooked by the world.

The natural reaction of a muslim with a heart, upon seeing such violence against our women and children, is pain and anger. Who among humans can bear with dignity injustice and suffering while keeping our words polite so as to not offend our perpetrators? Only prophets have that kind of patience and humility. If you do not feel the pain of decades of humiliation and forced degradation then how can you claim to be a muslim?

People are conditioned and learn from their surroundings. If the palestinians are bitter and use vile language to describe jews, then I say it is their right. One who is unjustly wronged has, at the very least, the right of verbally taking out their frustration. Because muslims are not adept (nor have the level of access) at utilizing the media to use pointed words against their adversaries (pick up any newspaper in the US and see how biased the stories are. Pay attention to the words used to describe jews and the words used describing muslims), you look down upon their use of crude verbal language at an outlet for their feelings?

Lastly, if you claim that you are engaging the non-muslims by taking a softer approach then let me remind you that a person who lowers himself can never negotiate a fair deal. Only as equals can true negotiation take place. Currently, only words are our defense and you want us to give that up as well and thereby completely abandoning our moral obligation as HUMANS to our Palestinian brethren.

Stinks of Uncle Tom, Eboo.

Thanks, Eboo, for speaking out.

Why make a big fuss about anti semitism among Muslims, while the world keep silent about ethnic cleansing by Israelis against Arabs. Where the hell is your moral conscience.

"Anti-Semitism" is a word frequently mis-used even by supposed experts, as is the case in this commentary. Jews and Arabs are Semites, as were their ancient cousins the Babylonians, Assyrians, and Phoenicians. The Muslims refereed to in this commentary are "anti-Jewish" not "anti-Semitic," unless they hate Arabs and all other Semitic peoples in addition to Jews. This subject is problmeatic enough without added linguistic confusion.

Victoria, Victoria,

Hmmm, I see you are still feeding off the flaws of others and still not coming to grips with the failings of Islam. What version of the koran are you reading??

As a former Muslim I would like to add my opinion to this discussion.

When I was a practising Muslim, hatred of the Jews was an integral part of my Muslim values.

The internet opened my eyes. That was when I first read the Quran, the hadiths and the Sirah Rasul Allah in a language I could understand.

I was shocked to read that Muhammad owned slaves, had children as wives and concubines and that he had massacred innocent Jews.

Before leaving Islam I saw the Jew as the reason for the misery of the Muslims. They owned the banks, the press, the professional jobs whereas most of the Muslims were mired in poverty. The tiny nation of Israel had repeatedly defeated the Muslim armies.

I realized finally that it was not Jews that I hated. It was me and my miserable faith that had caused my poverty. the Jew only served as a pretext. If it had not been the Jew, I would have hated the Hindu or perhaps the Christian.

The Jew hating Muslim is a man who is afraid. Afraid of himself, his own consciousness, even his own liberty that he discovers in the west. I went to abar once and the friendly attitude of the female bartender I mistook for a sexual advance.

When I saw the real truth I was liberated. I finished college, then got a Master's degree and am gainfully employed.

By attacking Muslims you only exacerbate the problem of Islamic hate. Instead I urge you lend the Muslim a sympathetic ear without giving in to his unreasonable demands. And gently expose him to the truth about Islam, Muhammad and the Quran.

It will take generations to stop this cycle of hate but the time to begin is now.

Pluralism is the basis of quran.It even allows to marry christians and jews.Quran says whoever do good whether it is muslims christians or jews will go to heaven.Its the interpretation of quran based on hadees which is written 300 years after prophets death causing all the problems

i could dig out some ugly filth from the mishnah demonstrating equally disgusting points- but the only thing that proves is some nasty old bigots had access to writng materials

Victoria, Victoria,

There is no confusion about the following words:

With the "pwtfft" i.e. Gabriel and the warmongering, womanizing, "holey not holy hallucinator" aka Mohammed what does one conclude about Islam?

A cult based on oil profits, terror, fear of the sword, stoning, hand chopping and suicide bombers.

i encourage you to re-examine our conversation on the other board daniel

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/hadia_mubarak/2007/09/politics_not_religion_fuel_des/all_comments.html

o and vince- that is pure garbage nonsense you are printing there

Ishaq:262 "Some Muslims remained friends with the Jews, so Allah sent down a Qur'an forbidding them to take Jews as friends. From their mouths hatred has already shown itself and what they conceal is worse."

Qur'an 2:64 "But you [Jews] went back on your word and were lost losers. So become apes, despised and hated. We made an example out of you."

Ishaq:240 "The Jews are a nation of liars.... The Jews are a treacherous, lying, and evil people."

Ishaq:250 "The bestial transformation occurred when Allah turned Jews into apes, despised."

Tabari VIII:130 "The Messenger said during his final illness, ‘Two religions cannot coexist in the Arabian Peninsula.' Umar investigated the matter, then sent to the Jews, saying: ‘Allah has given permission for you to be expelled; for I have received word that the Prophet said that two religions cannot coexist in Arabia."

no daniel- you seem to be the only one arguing about the meanings of the words.
semite includes arabic people, now you may not like to admit that-but it does.

alot of our parents fought against the nazis daniel.
that doesnt mean we have stopped thinking or become our parents.
also it has nothing to do with anything.
i dont see any reparation monies for the jehovahs witnesses(1million) or the roma (gypsies) or the other millions who were killed by hitler whose deaths are equally important.

i dont see anyone screaming about the genocide in ethiopia by the italian fascists.

as the author stated- anti-semitism against jewish people is a vile thing- as is any unreasoned hatred for any 'other' anywhere.

i can be securely loving towards my jewish friends and am-(all of them anti-zionists) and still be strongly anti-zionist.

which i also am.

throwing around words like jew-hater is much more inflammatory than posting some well recognized and accepted definitions of the words being discussed.

the point is muslims have hearts that cry out for social justice and peace as strongly as any others.

its actually codified into our religion.

All I am trying to say is that arguing over the meaning of the word is not the point. The point is that "antisemtic" means "hatred of Jews." Everyone knows that. If you don't know that, then you are being disingenuous. If you deny the word that describes you (you meaning, any undefined person, in general) then you must be ashamed, that is ashamed of jew-hatred, and seek somehow to justify your shamefulness.

I know people who become red-faced with hysteria over the subject of the Jews, and whenever they get like that, I don't even take them seriously, not at all, but just try to calm them down and change the subject, and make a mental note: nut-case.

This is a very dangerous word to be playing around with. I have no reason to hate Jews, nor to hate anyone. But in particular, I would not ever want to be associated with any kind of antisemitism, with all of the Nazi ideology and Mein Kampf, Adolph Hitler bagggage associated with it. My mother's brother and my father's brother fought in the war against Hitler. Alot of people just don't "get it."

Sometimes, when I am trying to calm down Jew-haters, they accuse me of being a Jew or a Jew-lover; I expect that there may be some replies like that to this post. So just for the record, I am named Daniel, but I am just a plain old WASP.

thats why i included both definitions daniel-

if you dont know what semitic is- you cant know what anti-semitic is
its an evolution of the word

you dont have to apologize for how i take things
the point is still the exact same
(why be sorry for my perceptions?)
im not

Okay the Muslims are not anti-Semite they are anti-Jew and Christian. The point is that they hate and the Qur'an is a book of hate. Please give me an exposition on the doctrine of love in the Qur'an? I know I will either get no answer to this challenge or one that skirts the issue.

The God of the Bible on the other hand is a God of love. His love is shown for Adam and Eve in the covering of thier nakedness after their fall. It is seen as He interacts with His people throughout the OT, and it is seen in His sacrificial at the cross.

Okay they Muslims are not anti-Semite they are anti-Jew and Christian. The point is that they hate and the Qur'an is a book of hate. Please give me an exposition on the doctrine of love in the Qur'an? I know I will either get no answer to this challenge or one that skirts the issue.

The God of the Bible on the other hand is a God of love. His love is shown for Adam and Eve in the covering of thier nakedness after their fall. It is seen as He interacts with His people throughout the OT, and it is seen in His sacrificial at the cross.

Dear Victoria

You misread me. I was not referring to your post at all, and was not even thinking of you when I made my comment. I just noticed that alot of people say, "how can an Arab be antisemitic, they're semites, too." My point was, to people in general, the meaning of the word is clear; I admit its origins are a little confused, but current usage of words in the English language take on a life of their own and do not relate to logic or to some official board that assigns meanings. I apologize is you took if the wrong way.

damiel- youve just proven that you didnt even read the post-
you said`
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~...and by the way, if you want to look up the meaning of the word antisemitic in the dictionary, you would look under the letter "A" because that is the the first letter of the word antisemitic, and you would not look it up under the letter "S" for semitic~~~~~

did you miss the 5 DEFINITIONS OF ANTI-SEMITIC???

so, no real complaints about the post itself, just complaints that there should be more?

Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. said the following about Zionism:

". . . You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist.' And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of God's green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--this is God's own truth.
"Antisemitism, the hatred of the Jewish people, has been and remains a blot on the soul of mankind. In this we are in full agreement. So know also this: anti-Zionist is inherently antisemitic, and ever will be so.

"Why is this? You know that Zionism is nothing less than the dream and ideal of the Jewish people returning to live in their own land. The Jewish people, the Scriptures tell us, once enjoyed a flourishing Commonwealth in the Holy Land. From this they were expelled by the Roman tyrant, the same Romans who cruelly murdered Our Lord. Driven from their homeland, their nation in ashes, forced to wander the globe, the Jewish people time and again suffered the lash of whichever tyrant happened to rule over them.

"The Negro people, my friend, know what it is to suffer the torment of tyranny under rulers not of our choosing. Our brothers in Africa have begged, pleaded, requested--DEMANDED the recognition and realization of our inborn right to live in peace under our own sovereignty in our own country.

"How easy it should be, for anyone who holds dear this inalienable right of all mankind, to understand and support the right of the Jewish People to live in their ancient Land of Israel. All men of good will exult in the fulfilment of God's promise, that his People should return in joy to rebuild their plundered land.

This is Zionism, nothing more, nothing less.

"And what is anti-Zionist? It is the denial to the Jewish people of a fundamental right that we justly claim for the people of Africa and freely accord all other nations of the Globe. It is discrimination against Jews, my friend, because they are Jews. In short, it is antisemitism.

"The antisemite rejoices at any opportunity to vent his malice. The times have made it unpopular, in the West, to proclaim openly a hatred of the Jews. This being the case, the antisemite must constantly seek new forms and forums for his poison. How he must revel in the new masquerade! He does not hate the Jews, he is just 'anti-Zionist'!

"My friend, I do not accuse you of deliberate antisemitism. I know you feel, as I do, a deep love of truth and justice and a revulsion for racism, prejudice, and discrimination. But I know you have been misled--as others have been--into thinking you can be 'anti-Zionist' and yet remain true to these heartfelt principles that you and I share.

Let my words echo in the depths of your soul: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--make no mistake about it."

From M.L. King Jr., "Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend," Saturday Review_XLVII (Aug. 1967), p. 76.
Reprinted in M.L. King Jr., "This I Believe: Selections from the Writings of Dr. Martin Luther King

Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. said the following about Zionism:

". . . You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist.' And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of God's green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--this is God's own truth.
"Antisemitism, the hatred of the Jewish people, has been and remains a blot on the soul of mankind. In this we are in full agreement. So know also this: anti-Zionist is inherently antisemitic, and ever will be so.

"Why is this? You know that Zionism is nothing less than the dream and ideal of the Jewish people returning to live in their own land. The Jewish people, the Scriptures tell us, once enjoyed a flourishing Commonwealth in the Holy Land. From this they were expelled by the Roman tyrant, the same Romans who cruelly murdered Our Lord. Driven from their homeland, their nation in ashes, forced to wander the globe, the Jewish people time and again suffered the lash of whichever tyrant happened to rule over them.

"The Negro people, my friend, know what it is to suffer the torment of tyranny under rulers not of our choosing. Our brothers in Africa have begged, pleaded, requested--DEMANDED the recognition and realization of our inborn right to live in peace under our own sovereignty in our own country.

"How easy it should be, for anyone who holds dear this inalienable right of all mankind, to understand and support the right of the Jewish People to live in their ancient Land of Israel. All men of good will exult in the fulfilment of God's promise, that his People should return in joy to rebuild their plundered land.

This is Zionism, nothing more, nothing less.

"And what is anti-Zionist? It is the denial to the Jewish people of a fundamental right that we justly claim for the people of Africa and freely accord all other nations of the Globe. It is discrimination against Jews, my friend, because they are Jews. In short, it is antisemitism.

"The antisemite rejoices at any opportunity to vent his malice. The times have made it unpopular, in the West, to proclaim openly a hatred of the Jews. This being the case, the antisemite must constantly seek new forms and forums for his poison. How he must revel in the new masquerade! He does not hate the Jews, he is just 'anti-Zionist'!

"My friend, I do not accuse you of deliberate antisemitism. I know you feel, as I do, a deep love of truth and justice and a revulsion for racism, prejudice, and discrimination. But I know you have been misled--as others have been--into thinking you can be 'anti-Zionist' and yet remain true to these heartfelt principles that you and I share.

Let my words echo in the depths of your soul: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--make no mistake about it."

From M.L. King Jr., "Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend," Saturday Review_XLVII (Aug. 1967), p. 76.
Reprinted in M.L. King Jr., "This I Believe: Selections from the Writings of Dr. Martin Luther King

Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. said the following about zionism:

". . . You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist.' And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of God's green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--this is God's own truth.
"Antisemitism, the hatred of the Jewish people, has been and remains a blot on the soul of mankind. In this we are in full agreement. So know also this: anti-Zionist is inherently antisemitic, and ever will be so.

"Why is this? You know that Zionism is nothing less than the dream and ideal of the Jewish people returning to live in their own land. The Jewish people, the Scriptures tell us, once enjoyed a flourishing Commonwealth in the Holy Land. From this they were expelled by the Roman tyrant, the same Romans who cruelly murdered Our Lord. Driven from their homeland, their nation in ashes, forced to wander the globe, the Jewish people time and again suffered the lash of whichever tyrant happened to rule over them.

"The Negro people, my friend, know what it is to suffer the torment of tyranny under rulers not of our choosing. Our brothers in Africa have begged, pleaded, requested--DEMANDED the recognition and realization of our inborn right to live in peace under our own sovereignty in our own country.

"How easy it should be, for anyone who holds dear this inalienable right of all mankind, to understand and support the right of the Jewish People to live in their ancient Land of Israel. All men of good will exult in the fulfilment of God's promise, that his People should return in joy to rebuild their plundered land.

This is Zionism, nothing more, nothing less.

"And what is anti-Zionist? It is the denial to the Jewish people of a fundamental right that we justly claim for the people of Africa and freely accord all other nations of the Globe. It is discrimination against Jews, my friend, because they are Jews. In short, it is antisemitism.

"The antisemite rejoices at any opportunity to vent his malice. The times have made it unpopular, in the West, to proclaim openly a hatred of the Jews. This being the case, the antisemite must constantly seek new forms and forums for his poison. How he must revel in the new masquerade! He does not hate the Jews, he is just 'anti-Zionist'!

"My friend, I do not accuse you of deliberate antisemitism. I know you feel, as I do, a deep love of truth and justice and a revulsion for racism, prejudice, and discrimination. But I know you have been misled--as others have been--into thinking you can be 'anti-Zionist' and yet remain true to these heartfelt principles that you and I share.

Let my words echo in the depths of your soul: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--make no mistake about it."

From M.L. King Jr., "Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend," Saturday Review_XLVII (Aug. 1967), p. 76.
Reprinted in M.L. King Jr., "This I Believe: Selections from the Writings of Dr. Martin Luther King

...and by the way, if you want to look up the meaning of the word antisemitic in the dictionary, you would look under the letter "A" because that is the the first letter of the word antisemitic, and you would not look it up under the letter "S" for semitic, because the word you are looking for is antisemtic, not semitic.

TO EBOO PATEL and the rest of humanity: The following letter, I e-mailed to someone who gave me their e-mail and said was a true believing muslim and if I had any questions to ask. I e-mailed the letter out on the 11th of August 2007, I also sent it to the Vatican and the United Nations and to various other people and organizations. So far the only reply that I have received was from newsweek's web editors. If Eboo Patel or anyone else would like to comment, feel free to do so. I would like to ask you some questions about islam but first I want to let you know that I really did meet God, the whole Trinity, and I did meet satan. Also when I write that God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not religious affiliations or lack thereof, I mean exactly what I am saying, a lot of people seem to think that knowing God's Name is their ticket so to speak. Jesus wasn't merely a prophet but He is the Saviour of the entire Human Race. Actually it was only a couple of years ago that I found out that the religion of islam was so recent and by that I mean it started in the 600's AD. God's Plan is for all of His children and God is Love, Pure Love no matter what a lot of people that call themselves christians would have you believe. How come in islam the christians and Jews are called the people of "The Book" but "The Book" is outlawed in some muslim countries? I am a messenger but the message that I am here to give is that the bible is true, even though it has been distorted by so many people that are talking on their own. I did not ask to be a messenger but I have said Yes. The Old Testament which basically is the Hebrew bible is the story of God choosing and forming a people to be able to become one of us and die for all of us. I do not consider christianity or Judaism to be a religion but a covenential relationship and guess what: the Jews do not recognize Jesus and so many so-called christians distort the simple and loving message of the bible as to make it toxic. There is a phrase in christianity, "The Fear of the Lord", after I met God, I couldn't understand why anyone should be afraid of God and so I looked up the phrase in the dictionary and it means: reverence and awe, it does not mean being afraid of God. I hear it said that in islam you are to submit to god, which sounds to me is out of fear, being afraid of what he will do; whereas in chrisitianity you should obey out of Love, of course this is not what a lot of people do in either one. As I have said before "True Religion" is taking care of widows and orphans which means taking care of those in need which is all of us. Whether we like it or not we are all brothers and sisters no matter what we believe. Even though a lot of people calling themselves christians thru the ages have believed that God used the Jews and then threw them away that is not true at all, God chose and formed the Jews, the Israelites, for a reason and they are still the chosen people, that doesn't mean they are better or anything like that, it just means they are the chosen people, considering that satan is the prince of this world, Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews told us that, is it any wonder that the Jews are so hated. By the way satan besides being a liar and a thief is also a loser, as it says God will declare Victory in favor of the Holy Ones, that means a total and unconditional pardon for all of mankind, for it also says that it is God's Will that all be saved. There are some and it seems that there might be quite a few that deny that The Holocust in World War II ever happened, considering all of the concrete evidence including people that still have tatoos on their bodies concerning something that happened in the living memory of some people, is it any wonder that people can be so easily manipulated into following their hatreds and prejudices especially if they have been force fed hatred from their earliest memories. I am not denying that a lot of "christians" have been taught hatred and bigotry but that is not what Jesus taught or what He lived and died for. I hear a lot of talk of tolerance these days, well guess what that is not even close to what Jesus taught, what He taught was LOVE and the reason He taught LOVE is because GOD IS LOVE, PURE LOVE. As I have said before Jesus said that He is God and He also said that He is man, He was telling the truth, the god of islam says that Jesus is a liar well who is the liar because one of them is, it is not Jesus. It is a shame that so many of the people that call themselves christians don't seem to care as long as they get to the "good place", that might be good enough for them but it is not good enough for the True, Living, Triune, Triumphant God. As I have tried to say so plainly, it is important what you do and why you do it and also what you know as opposed to what you believe. Just because someone believes something does not mean it is true and just because someone says this is what the bible says does not mean that they know what it means. One of the fascinating things that Jesus said on the cross is "It is finished", I do not know what the aramaic words were, but in an archeological dig where they dug up some tax documents I believe, the exact words were found on a document that was not religious in any sense and the translation of those words were, "Paid in Full", and that payment is for the entire human race contrary to what a lot of people even want it to be as long as they get to the "good place". Jesus, true man and True God, actually went to the uttermost depths of hell for all of us in that He took on the sin and the sins of mankind and I think that is pretty nice of God to do, don't you? Some people seem to think that hell is some kind of monolithic place where either God or satan sends you,well they are wrong, you build it yourself. God created not only every human being but the entire universe out of nothing and He gave us all free will and The Plan is His Plan. As a wise doctor once said, whatever you do for love, you do for God, think about it. I am the New Testament Moses and I repeat: God wins Total Victory, satan loses, a tie is absolutely unacceptable. Take Care. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Quoting from the Koran is like quoting from Carl Marx: it all looks good on paper, BUT, in reality, there are alot of problems.

The word, anti-semetic, means anti-Jewish. That is what the word means. Arguing about what the word means, is the problem. Denial is the problem. I think it is pretty common knowledge what many Islamic people think about Jews. You hear it often enough. I have ears. Are my ears lying? Nope! I don't think they are.

If you hate Jews, go ahead and hate them, but don't try to change the subject to the meaning of a word, whose meaning is clear to English speaking people. And don't deny it by saying the Koran denies it. What the Koran says, and what people do, are two different things.

I think that anti-semitic people who throw up all kinds of road-blocks to the truth, are really ashamed of themselves, and don't want to face it. Maybe that is a good sign.

Semitic Anti-Semitism?

Has the mainstream media collectively decided to call 95% of the world's semites "anti-semitic"?

My dictionary defines "semite" as: One of a people of Caucasian stock, comprising chiefly Jews and Arabs.

Muslims do not hate "Semites" -- huge numbers of Muslims ARE Semites.

They hate Israel, and they hate Jews for being the "tip of the spear" of European Christian Imperialism thrust into the heart of Muslim Arabia -- at the crossroads of three continents.

From the beginning, Israel has launched military attacks against unarmed Palestinian civilians. And now they refuse to allow Palestinian Right of Return, and threaten to nuke the hell out of any Arab or Muslim nation that "causes them too much trouble or too much worry."

They have made it enormously obvious that they intend another 50 or 100 years of "ethnic cleansing" in their policy of "annex and expel". Y'all go on now -- cross the Jordan -- and keep heading east.

Many Israelis claim that "The East Bank" of the Jordan River -- much of the modern country of Jordan -- was given to the Jews by God.

Shall we gather at the river?
The river? The river?
Shall we gather at the river,
That flows by the throne of God?

Mike Egger

3For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. 9For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me. 11Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

Victoria, Then address all the anti-Jew and Christian Haddiths and Qur'an passages. Do not tell us that you believe in Jesus too because the Muslim Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible. Jesus is God's Son the Qur'an denies this. Jesus died on the cross and arose from the dead according to the scriptures the Qur'an denies this. The Qur'an has very nasty words for those who believe that God is three persons yet one God.

"Let us make man in out own image."

Why aren't we and the Muslem leaders in Iraq and Afganistan and even Isreal putting up giant posters all over saying that suicide bombings are against the teachings of Mohamed and doing so will put the perpertrater in perpetual hell rather than rewarding them in heaven? How can parents send their sons and daughters to their death if they love them? Although there is little logic in any religion Islam is the craziest religion that venerates death rather than life.

Thank you, Mr. Patel. I think one more point you could have made is that until immigrants to the US manage to shed the biases and hatreds they brought over with them from their countries of origin, they can never become true Americans. (Naturalized legally, perhaps, but not Americans in the sense of accepting life in a secular and pluralistic society.) This does not apply only to Muslims, of course, but everyone.

Its quite a stretch to call Muslims inherently antisemitic.

When the Jews were literally thrown out of Europe thousands resettled peacefully in North Africa, and in each of the Middle East ccountries.

Mr. Patel is either ignorant of the Bernard Lewis's, the David Pipes and others in their classification of all Muslims as evil. If that is not an indication of hatred or equal hatred then Mr. Patel while being suppoedly a man ON FAITH is nevertheless UN-faithful in his conclusions.

Mr. Patel may be more lucid on the intolerance of Hindus towards their 80 million fellow "untouchable" citizens. But as far his take on 'antisemitism' its the same old punch and judy show.

Statements denigrating " other religions/peoples" is part of the effort to sermonize belivers as well as non believers in every religion.

The Talmud for example includes statements to the effect that any Gentile who hits a Jew should be KILLED. why is such a statement not consideeredas evil as any equivalent statement made in either the New Testamanet or Koran?

Its quite a stretch to call Muslims inherently antisemitic.

When the Jews were literally thrown out of Europe thousands resettled peacefully in North Africa, and in each of the Middle East ccountries.

Mr. Patel is either ignorant of the Bernard Lewis's, the David Pipes and others in their classification of all Muslims as evil. If that is not an indication of hatred or equal hatred then Mr. Patel while being suppoedly a man ON FAITH is nevertheless UN-faithful in his conclusions.

Mr. Patel may be more lucid on the intolerance of Hindus towards their 80 million fellow "untouchable" citizens. But as far his take on 'antisemitism' its the same old punch and judy show.

Its quite a stretch to call Muslims inherently antisemitic.

When the Jews were literally thrown out of Europe thousands resettled peacefully in North Africa, and in each of the Middle East ccountries.

Mr. Patel is either ignorant of the Bernard Lewis's, the David Pipes and others in their classification of all Muslims as evil. If that is not an indication of hatred or equal hatred then Mr. Patel while being suppoedly a man ON FAITH is nevertheless UN-faithful in his conclusions.

Mr. Patel may be more lucid on the intolerance of Hindus towards their 80 million fellow "untouchable" citizens. But as far his take on 'antisemitism' its the same old punch and judy show.

Whoever said Muslims are anti-Semites? It's totally wrong. I have never met a Muslim who has ever uttered those words and I know because I'm a Muslim. Many Muslims are against Zionism. It's the Zionism that took a land called Palestine and made it into Israel and caused wonderful jews who had lived in peace and harmony with Musilms to be brutal and viscious in their dealings with Palestanians.

No Muslim can deny Holocaust. It's a historical fact. Extreme brutality was forced upon peace-loving decent jews. But taking Palestanian land and giving to jews to compensate for German brutality is illogical and that's what Muslims are against.

Long live beautiful, wonderful jews! but not in Palestine.

test

really sorry to hear such a nonsense and ignorance in fact semitism include both muslim and jews.

Victoria's story about the two men one Muslim and the other a Jew is a very childish story indeed. It goes to show how Islam makes the Muslim mind so numb that they are made to believe among other ridiculous things that their god sits on a throne. Clearly man made 1400 year old thinking. Why is he sitting on a throne? Why does Moses need to hold the side of Allah's throne, didn't Allah make a perfect throne in the first place? One that does not need holding on to? Conscious, unconscious what childish drivel is this? Also, ramadan is quite a stupid ritual, not only is it bad for health but it is also ancient rubbish rituals that the simple muslim minds are made to believe is sacred. Why should it be covered by the media? We don't need to see a feeding frenzy or the gymnastics performed on a prayer rug after the azaan goes off, or that dumb date you people stuff in your mouth to emulate "allah's apostle". I always hated those sticky dates and was forced to love them just because Mr. Prophet ate them.

really sorry to hear such a nonsense and ignorance in fact semitism include both muslim and jews.

really sorry to hear such a nonsense and ignorance in fact semitism include both muslim and jews.

So Muhammad is a prophet but he no longer speaks. Huh. Not much of a prophet. His voice died with him. The Word of the LIVING God says the devil came to steal, kill and destroy, and that is what the devils children do too. Israel is a garden the Arab wants to steal and he will kill and destroy to get it. But God rebukes him and his children.

truly no distinctionmade between messengers-
this also demonstrates the humility of Muhammad(pbuh) and his fairness in his dealings with everyone, muslim or jewish-

Volume 8, Book 76, Number 524: Narrated Abu Huraira:

Two men, a Muslim and a Jew, abused each other. The Muslim said, "By Him Who gave superiority to Muhammad over all the people." On that, the Jew said, "By Him Who gave superiority to Moses over all the people." The Muslim became furious at that and slapped the Jew in the face. The Jew went to Allah's Apostle and informed him of what had happened between him and the Muslim. Allah's Apostle said, "Don't give me superiority over Moses, for the people will fall unconscious on the Day of Resurrection and I will be the first to gain consciousness, and behold ! Moses will be there holding the side of Allah's Throne. I will not know whether Moses has been among those people who have become unconscious and then has regained consciousness before me, or has been among those exempted by Allah from falling unconscious."

Franco- it is understandable that you might question where these muslims are who speak out-

(well, actually they are here right now, arent they?)

but what forum might you expect to see them in?
consider the possibilty that the media is not giving them a voice-

people dont tune into see peaceful muslims-
nor will networks broadcast them-
would you agree that demonizing muslims as the 'other' tends to circumvent criticism from americans for the war we are in?

muslims are not even humanized enough to recognize that we are in the middle of our month long ramadan (religious) observance.

have you seen even ONE reference to ramadan on any network anywhere?

even PBS ignores it completely

people arent as willing to go and kill children of observant religious people
they kind of question the morality of it

but as long as any muslim anywhere in the world does anything violent or barbaric (and there are certainly cases- just as there are from all groups of people)
well,thats the lead story isnt it.
why dont you call your local tv station and ask why they dont represent muslims in their broadcast?

even a quick happy ramadan graphic would be something- but not even that tiny concession to our humanness

do you think there might possibly be a media slant?

from 5 different dictionaries
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1)
an·ti-Sem·i·tism
–noun discrimination against or prejudice or hostility toward Jews.

2)
[an·ti-Sem·i·tism (ān'tē-sěm'ĭ-tĭz'əm, ān'tī-)
n.
Hostility toward or prejudice against Jews or Judaism.
Discrimination against Jews.

3)
1881, from Ger. Antisemitismus, first used by Wilhelm Marr in 1880, from anti- + Semite (q.v.). Not etymologically restricted to anti-Jewish theories, actions or policies, but almost always used in this sense. Those who object to the inaccuracy of the term might try H. Adler's Judaeophobia (1882).

4)
noun
the intense dislike for and prejudice against Jewish people

5)
Prejudice or hatred against Jews, a Semitic race. (See Arab-Israeli conflict and Nazis.)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1)Se·mit·ic [ sə míttik ]
noun
languages spoken by Semites: a group of languages belonging to the Afro-Asiatic family and spoken in North Africa and Southwest Asia, including Hebrew, Arabic, Aramaic, Maltese, and Amharic

2)
Semitic
1. Any of a group of Afro-Asiatic languages including Hebrew, Arabic and Aramaic, spoken by Semites, a group of people said to be descended from Shem, the eldest son of Noah (Genesis 10).
adj
1. Referring to or speaking any such language.
2. Referring or relating to Semites.
3. Referring or relating to the Jews; Jewish.

Etymology: 19c: from Greek Sem Shem + -ite.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

i think you all get the idea now-

yes, literally and etymologically semitic does refer to arabs also-

however popular usage has dictated it's meaning to be as mr patel indicated

ANTI-ZIONISM
Anti-Zionism is opposition to Zionism, the Jewish Nationalist movement that seeks to establish a homeland for the Jewish people in the Land of Israel.
Anti-Zionists can be both left-wing, right-wing, religious or secular, Jewish or non-Jewish.

Many religious Jews remained steadfast in their anti-Zionism, Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum's book, VaYoel Moshe, published in 1958, expounds one Orthodox position on Zionism, based on a literal form of midrash (biblical interpretation). Citing to Tractate Kesubos 111a of the Talmud Teitelbaum states that God and the Jewish people exchanged three oaths at the time of the Jews' exile from ancient Israel:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*That the Jewish people would not ascend to the Holy Land as a group using force;
*That the Jewish people would not rebel against the governments of countries in which they lived;
*That the Jewish people would not, by their sins, prolong the coming of the Messiah
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Kay- it is NOT anti-israel against anti-semitism

antisemitism is a racist position
anti-israel is a political position against a secular entity

zionism was created by atheist secularists
however, it has been politically expedient for them to allow people to confuse jewish identity with zionism (actually they've encouraged it)

i personally came to knowledge about the anti-zionist movement in america through my religious jewish friends.

the qu'ran calls for action against SPECIFIC JEWISH PEOPLES who were treacherously plotting against the young muslim community-

however- the qu'ran makes the distinction between those jewish people contemporaneous to Muhammad(pbuh) and other jewish peoples-

as it states in the qu'ran- (and many other places)

2:62 Verily, those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
and
2:285 We make no distinction between one another of His Messengers."
`````````````
and many other references commanding muslims to respect jewish people and christians.

heres a link to a very vocal anti-zionist professor who also happens to be jewish.

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/content.php?pg=21

personally, i am passionately ANTI-ZIONIST
but this does not imply that i am anti-jewish.
i am not.

peace

Asim proves my point above. Listen to the hatred spewing form his deceived Muslim heart and overflowing from his lips. The spirit of the anti-Christ is in him and I pray that he will realize this truth and escape from the clutches of the Devil and flee to the loving arms of Jesus the Son of God and Son of Man who died, was buried, and arose from the dead for the sins of all those who would believe.

Eboo,

Are you ready to denounce the Qur'an and the Haddiths below?

These qoutes below from trusted Islamic literature demonstrate that you Eboo either want to deceive the American poeple or that you are completely ignorant of the teachings of the Qur'an and trusted Haddiths. The Islamic world hates the Jewish people and true Christians and their hatred is completely in line with the Qur'an and the Hadiths teach. Read for yourself the following:

"O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people" (Qur'an 5:51).

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 196:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' and whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' his life and property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to forgive him.)"

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 179:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Turks; people with small eyes, red faces, and flat noses. Their faces will look like shields coated with leather. The Hour will not be established till you fight with people whose shoes are made of hair."

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 176:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:
Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.' "
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html#004.052.260

"And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!" (Qur'an 9:30).

Mr. Patel, Muslim Jew hatred is as old as Islam itself.

Indeed, the Koran (believed by Muslims to be the literal words of Allah) contains dozens of anti-Semitic verses, including those depicting Jews as wretched, disobedient, cursed, evildoing, perverted, rebellious, treacherous, lying, usurous, idolatrous, cheating, deceivers, minions of the devil, murderers of prophets, apes and swine, and perhaps most importantly, eternally cursed to be humiliated.

Until Muslims tackle this problematic fact instead of deluding themselves that their religion is not anti-semitic, it will never disappear.

Mr. Patel, Muslim Jew hatred is as old as Islam itself.

Indeed, the Koran (believed by Muslims to be the literal words of Allah) contains dozens of anti-Semitic verses, including those depicting Jews as wretched, disobedient, cursed, evildoing, perverted, rebellious, treacherous, lying, usurous, idolatrous, cheating, deceivers, minions of the devil, murderers of prophets, apes and swine, and perhaps most importantly, eternally cursed to be humiliated.

Until Muslims tackle this problematic fact instead of deluding themselves that their religion is not anti-semitic, it will never disappear.

Mr. Patel, Muslim Jew hatred is as old as Islam itself.

Indeed, the Koran (believed by Muslims to be the literal words of Allah) contains dozens of anti-Semitic verses, including those depicting Jews as wretched, disobedient, cursed, evildoing, perverted, rebellious, treacherous, lying, usurous, idolatrous, cheating, deceivers, minions of the devil, murderers of prophets, apes and swine, and perhaps most importantly, eternally cursed to be humiliated.

Until Muslims tackle this problematic fact instead of deluding themselves that their religion is not anti-semitic, it will never disappear.

200,000 USA citizens converted to Islam since 9/11??? References?????

I commend Mr. Eboo Patel for this article and personal undertaking on this most important matter. I support these efforts whole heatedly.

In support I have some questions in respect to his claims about American Muslims. Some may consider this a challenge to the heart of Eboo Patel conviction on this important matter but nothing could be further from the truth. It is because I support them that I point out serious questions in the minds of non-Muslims. I want to address what I have difficulty excepting at face value as to some of his reasoning that for me does not add up. And it needs to add up if he wants to make serious headway.

Eboo says:
"The voices of people like Shaykh Hamza and Imam Malik are having an increasing influence within the American Muslim community for a very simple reason – they reflect the attitude of the majority of American Muslims, who have felt both sickened and silenced by the minority of Muslims who speak of antisemitism as if it were a core tenet of Islam."

The focus is only on the American Muslim community and it claims that a minority of anti-Semitic Muslims has silenced the greater majority on how they truly think and feel.

With respect for Mr. Eboo Patel, and out of a better then average understanding of this subject matter, I find this difficult to take at face value for the following reasons.

1. The American Muslim community, as a whole, makes up a greater percentage of educated professionals in all fields per capita then the majority of non-Muslim Americans. That is nothing short of a profound attainment. To suggest that American Muslims can be, or have been, manipulated into silence by a minority of radical Muslims is to cast indignity and discredit upon their abilities of achievements in the most competitive ventures in a democratic society.

2. This exceedingly competent Muslim majority has no uncertainty what so ever about standing up for their rights and what they believe and never have. Their professionalism, their use of the courts, public and private forums, book publishers, media outlets, and well maintain and extremely well-funded organizations throughout the United States attest to these facts and always have. To suggest that a minority of radical can silence this professional body of American Muslims is in and of itself a denial of their potency, and a dishonor of their achievements and ability.

It is September 2007. Given the growing attention that radical Islam has had in past years, it has given the majority of professional American Muslim unprecedented opportunity to address this anti-Semitism front and center stage loud and clear for many years. You can not blame their silence on the radical few, it just dose not hold water.

I believe that you would agree that if today there were a minority sect of Christians caring out the exact same acts as radial Islamic terrorests do in the name of God for their faith , that not only the American media, but the world media would be filled from coast to coast and flooded with every Christian denomination denouncing this radical Christian sect as insane and having absolutely nothing to do with the Christian faith. They would distance themselves from this radical sect in no uncertain terms after the fist bloody international act was carried out in the name of Christianity.

I am a non-Muslim who has for years been shouting loudly “Where are the moderate Muslim voices?” However and most importantly, I am not one to try and drowned out something I have been seeking for so long. I welcome Eboo with open arms. Perhaps it has more to do with the questions that I pose above that creates the doubt that Eboo address in his following statement. I hope so.

"And there are non-Muslims – people who shout loudly ‘Where are the moderate Muslim voices?’ and then shout louder when those voices speak to make sure they are not heard. They seem invested in Muslims being anti-Semitic, of Islam being interpreted as an intolerant tradition."

muslims are not antisemtis as most arabs are semites... this article is flawed

to question the holocost does not mean to deny it?

whjy is it illegal in some eurpoean contries to question the happening of the holocast?

truth needs no law to protect it

God bless

I think one only has to read all the intolerant and foolish comments from all across the spectrum related to this posting to discover not only Muslim anti-semitism (pernsickity lexicographers be dammned) but anti-Muslim feeling (and just plain ol' hatred) as well.

However, I'm hoping that most people will pay more attention to the hopeful commentary and tone of the original piece and, regardless of nationality or religion or whatever arbitrary identifiers people give themselves, we can appreciate everyone's humanity and judge others by the quality of their character alone.

Wow! How refreshing to read an article such as this. I am a Christian by faith and have often wondered how so many people claim a faith in God, although called Ala, yet hate so many others that the same Ala created. My question was why would Ala even create these other beings if they are so correct? So that they could commit mass murder and suicides only to look forward to the promise of living the sin filled lies of the infidels with 70 virgins forever. That makes no sense.

I am glad someone in the Muslim community chooses to think with their mind other than react to another faith with violence and hatred. I often hear stories in church about the Dome of the Rock that is supposedly built over the last Temple of God. And where the hand of the Arc Angle Michael is imbedded in the rock as he attempted to chase Muhammad as he ascended.

Then I hear the stories of how the end of the world would come if the Dome is destroyed. Does any of this come from a God or Ala that created the universe and all things in it. Or from frail finite human beings clamoring over each other for their Creators favor by killing and hating each other over a piece of real estate?

I think God has created the universe for all his creations to share and behold. We only tend to satisfy our own insecurities and need to somehow feel immortal with Anti Semitism and Anti Islamic rhetoric based on our human need to feel immortal. Which totally diverges from what our faiths tell us will happen.

I don’t know about you but I don’t like it when my human leg hurts and would not like o feel that forever in this world, even with 70 virgins. What can you do with 70 virgins anyway? What do you do when they are no longer virgins? Go fishing I guess. Live and love life. God created the universe in all it’s grandeur. I’m sure His answers are a lot better than ours.

Amazing! All the little Nazis that occupy the WaPo boards seem to think that if they say "illegal" and "immoral" often enough when complaining about the Jewish state of Isreal, it will make everyone else believe their little fantasy. It gets tiresome to read one more halfway logical post, only to get to the part where their venom for Jews begins to foam from their mouths.

Personally, I think pretty much all Abrahamic religions & sects have nothing but harsh words for what will happen to those who don't believe in their version of the big guy in the sky...God/Allah/Yaweh. The big difference between a large part of Islam and the the rest of the world is that they've never grown up to the extent that they still want to forceably convert or kill anyone who doesn't agree with them.

Now, Muslims in the West and small enclaves in other parts of the world may be more tolerant for the most part, but I wouldn't trust anything told to me by a Muslim from the Middle East, Africa, or Asia. I've personally been told by more than one friendly Muslim here in the West that since I am an infidel, I should be very aware that anything I am told by their Muslim brothers can be a lie and to watch my back when they are smiling at my face. I take that advise to heart when I travel anywhere, but ESPECIALLY amongst the chosen of Allah.

unless you're excluding arabs "muslim anti-semitism" is a misnomer. how does a religion hate their origin?

Raghubir Singh,
So U a heathen cow/snake worshipper are self-appointed defender of Muslims who want to leave Islam? U are a liar:the quran states very clearly that "No compulsion in religion," people are free to enter or leave the faith and yet Islam is the fastest growing faith in the world-over 200,000 Americans converted to Islam since 9/11-and not a single Muslim left his faith-Islam is far superior to your heathenism and cow/snake worshipping "faith."
So stop your recyceled lies.

This endless nit-picking is stupid.

It is giving me an ice-cream headache.

Why don't we give back America to the Indians? Why don't the British give back Britain to the Celts? Why don't the Turks give back Turkey to the Greeks? Why don't the Spanish give back Spain to the Arabs? Why don't the Arabs give back Egypt to the Coptics?

All this crap makes me want to vomit. Reading the Bible or the Koran too much can make a man go crazy. The lunatics who post here are PROOF of that! There is more to life than prayer, prudery, and eternal war.

Mr. malleck

How about returning the land, half of Saudi Arabia, that Muhammad stole from the Jews back to the Jews????

That would be a good start to mideastern peace.

A HERMIT

I want first to answer your point about " The show may reflect an attempt by Iran's leadership to moderate its image as anti-Semitic and to underline a distinction that Iranian officials often make -- that their conflict is with Israel, not with the Jewish people".

There are 30,000 Jews in Iran whom Israeli interests tried to lure with financial incentives to re-settle in Israel and who not only refused but went further to denounce the attempt as a gambit to get them to sell their souls. They love their country Iran. They distaste Zionist domination, as do most (I am ready to concede maybe not all) of those whom Mr. Patel denounce. What these Iranain Jews and most Muslims don't like is to read several times a day in the newspapers, or see on TV, or hear over the radio, news items like the following three picked at random today on BBC:

(1) PALESTINIANS LEFT HELPLESS BY ISRAELIS,
(2) WORLD BANK WARNS Donald Macintyre in Jerusalem Published: 19 September 2007
(3)Israel curbs Ramadan prayer entry

In a single day, in a period of less than an hour!

Add to that, if you have PROOF of Muslims being kind to Jews, A HERMIT will tell you that it is for propaganda purposes, to avoid 'being bombed back to the stone age'!

It is not this particular Muslim, Mr. Patel, however cowardly I am for not actually going to Gaza to give a hand to the resistance ( as one American girl, Rachel, did and got crushed by a tank), who will hesitate to express my outrage at the pitifully small risk of being called anti-semite!

I am just, but being just means taking a principled stand, whoever happens to be the oppressed party. Not expressing hate but at least expresing outrage where it is due. Not drawing undeserved goodwill by making empty politically-correct pronouncements.

Eboo Patel - The so called "Holocaust Denier" conference in Iran wasn't antisemitic as you claim. The conference does not deny that the Holocaust DID NOT happen, it simply denies that ONLY Jews were killed. And that the Holocaust was highjacked by the zionist, when actually many people other than Jews died. Hitler disliked anyone not of his aryan blood - that was pretty much most of the world, and he killed whoever he got his hands on, not just Jews.

Also, take note that Arabs are semitic as well - so it's difficult to be anti-yourself. Semitics aren't only Jews.

Good essay.

Asim, Abuzaid and other Muslims

Before you talk about about Palestine, please return half of Saudi Arabia to the Jews. Muhammad stole this land from them.

There seems to be alot of theological nit-picking by people who have gone just a little nutz over religion. What the world really needs more of is psychiatrists and fewer clergy.

In the English language, it is commonly understood that "antisemetic" means anti-Jewish, or hatred of Jews. Never mind the orginal former meanings of the root of the word, but only what it means now. Picking apart the meaning of a word, and then restructuring another peron's argument to mean something different than his clearly understood intent is absurd and foolish.

The problem with Islam is that it is intolerant. For a Muslim to retort that Christianity and Judaism are also intolerant is not a good argument; it is indeed a silly argument.

So, I will restate it: the problem with Islam is that it is intolerant.

It is more than intolerant; it is puffed up and arogant; Muslims want Islam to be more important than it is, and cannot face the fact that Islam is just one of many religions which must compete for a place in modern twenty-first century culture.

But the arrogance of Islam is ironic when measured against the cold and unstoppable reality if its increasing feebleness, impotence, and unimportance as the world passes it by.

All that Islam has left to offer the world is haughty, snobbish arrogance, and existential nihilism, to negate the horrible reality that Islam is more and more irrelvant to the needs of the modern world.

Abuzaid

Among all the tribes of Arabia the Jews were the richest. While the Arabs were traders and robbers, Jews were farmers and artisans and land owners with large plantations. they were nearly half the population of Arabia and had been in Arabia as long as any one else. There Jewish kings in Arabia.

Muhammad had his eyes on both the wealth of the Jews and their women. One by one he started attacking them, kiliing their men and taking the widows and orphans into slavery. His take was normally 20% from the proceeds after selling the slaves.

After Khaybar was conquered, it was once again time to divide the booty. Aisha, the child wife of the ageing prophet remembered that as Muhammad and his Muslim marauders entered the Khaybar oasis, they exclaimed, " Now we will eat our fill od dates!"

One of the Muslim bandits, Dihya bin Khalifa came to the pedophile prophet and said" O Apostle of Allah! Give me a slave girl from the captives."

The prophet of Islam replied " Go and take any slave girl."

Dihya chose a 15 year old child widow named Saffiya bint Huyayy. Muhammad and his bandits had killed her husband the same day. She was the daughter of Huyayy bin Akhtab and he had been murdered by Muhammad along with 800 other Jewish men of the Banu Qurayza tribe. The Apostle of Allah's even killed male children whose only crime was that they had sprouted pubic hair.

Saffiya's husband was the young Kinann ibn Rabbi, a rabbi who had been tortured and killed by Muhammad and his men. Once captured, her beauty overwhelmed the Muslim thugs who told the prophet" We have not seen the like of her among the captives of war."

One man added " O Allah's Messenger! You gave Safiya bint Huyai to Dihya and she is the chief mistress of tribes of Quraiza and An-Nadir ( the tribe that populated the Khaybar oasis). She befits non but you."

Muhammad accordingly called Dihya and Saffiya. When he saw Saffiya he told Dihya " Take any other slave but her from the captives.."

Muhammad aksed her to convert to Islam and that he would marry her. She did not answer and in accordance with Arab rules she became his mistress. Muhammad , now nearly 60, raped the child the smae night he had widowed her.

It is said that she later relented and and converted to Islam. Muhammad then married her.

Abdulmateen Ali: you da man!

Eboo,Please note how your fellow Muslims are calling you ignorant. Every Muslim disagrees with you. Makes sense, they (Muslims) really do hate Jews. A Muslim cannot befriend a Jew, is that "fast" getting to you? The mistake you made in your article is that you did not criticize the Jews or the Christians too. You only chastised the Muslims, a big no no. Muslims simply cannot accept blame. A Muslim by nature of his religion cannot live in peace. He must have someone to hate, blame and fight with albeit himself in many cases.
A Muslim in Hawaii will hate the Jews because of Palestine. A Muslim in Chicago or Canada will hate the Hindu or the Jew because of Kashmir or Jerusalem. Muslim Somali refugees in peaceful USA, Canada or Sweden hate Jews. It’s a fact that your "prophet" started the hatred, he was a man consumed by hate for the Jews. Muslim logic; Zionists are the smartest people in the world; they can collectively control 5+ billon people into hating 1+ billion Muslims.

IT IS VERY LONG OVER DUE FOR MUSLIM LEADERS TO SPEAK OUT AGAINST THIS HATERED OF THE JEWS.

WHY HAS IT TAKEN SO LONG???? WHERE IS THE MORAL OUTRAGE BY THE DICTATERS RULING HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF THE FOLLOWERS OF THE PROFIT??

IT WILL TAKE A HELL OF A LOT MORE THAN A FEW WEAK VOICES JUST NOW SPEAKING OUT...BUT AT VERY BEST IT'S A WEAK START...

It would be interesting to examine Jewish anti-Islamism too.... Fair is fair. I'm always shocked by comments about 'The Arabs', or 'The Muslims' as if they were a single clump of undifferentiated and dangerous people... It really isn't any different that what Jews had to put up with in America for decades and decades. It's sad to see the inability of people to ignore ethnic stereotypes on both sides... Thank goodness for organizations like Americans for Peace Now and the Arab American Institute; it's too bad they are the voices crying in the desert, rather than the center of a coalition leading the fight against bigotry in their respective communities. (P.S. I am neither an Arab nor a Jew, just a bewildered onlooker...)

THANK YOU!

Finally a moderate mulim pulls no punches, tells the truth exactly as we all know it to be already, without making excuses or trying to minimize the evil by making a claim of the victim.

TREMENDOUS!

Now - can we get every moderate muslim leader and Imam in the US to openly condemn the actions of the haters here in the US AND OVERSEAS like you just did?

I hope so!

What you have done is beautiful and honest. THank you for the straight-up, un-parsed statement of peace and tolerance!

Peace be with you!

Condeming anti-semitism alone does not retore Islam. I think the Jews are only a nexus of hate. In Russia, England, The US, India and Asia wherever Islam exists radicals strike out against other religions. Since the 1880's Islam has been influenced by radical western philosophies such as anarchism, totalitarianism and centralized socialism. When merged with radical doctrine the social and political structures of Islam can easily be hi-jacked by radicals.

During WWI Germany, England and France injected political idealogy into Islam and the moslem world has been paying the price ever since. Like Abu Dahbi today; Palestine, Beriut, Kabul and Damacus where once cities as vibrant and open as any in the west and yet today poltical religion has devalued Islamic society.

Most of whats wrong with Islam today is the 1940's pholosophical connection with the Nazis who sponsored the Bath movement in Syria and Iraq, the PLO and the uprising in Algeria. I think once the Arab street turns to non-violent means to achieve thier social obejectives then and only then will Islam restore its reputation.

Asim, you STILL haven't answered my question. Are you afraid it will reveal your whole belief system is based on a missinterpretation of God's order and law? Then your whole world falls apart.

You know the question from another forum Asim. Answer it!

Muslims are anti-semite according to this author- a Muslim. Mr Patel has got lots of flak from his fellow peace loving Muslims like M. Malleck of Canada for this article.

But my point is Muslims do not get along with any one (and themselves- blew up a politician in Lebanon today).

They are blowing up Hindus in Kashmir, Buddhists in Thailand, Christians in Phillipines, UK, USA....

I wonder whether people are intentionally blind or simply ignorant. Hatred of jews is a myth, hatred of Muslims, celebrated by jews, is fact. The zionists are and have always been a savage people, eager to torture, kill, rape and enslave for their advantage and enjoyment. The mere presence of the zionist entity is a stain on the Earth and a tragedy before God. And until Palestine is restored to its rightful owners, there can be no peace between the peace-loving peoples of the world and the jews who bring untold misery to millions by supporting the zionists with their blood money.

To ABDULMATEEN ALI

Islam means Peace. You are an idiot for writing all the things you wrote just now. All the hard work of people who are trying desperately to change the way the world views us - means nothing to you right? Innocent people are dying for an evil little mind like yours? What a waste of perfectly good breathing space!

When I read your post, all I saw was a bitter maniac...that is NOT who we are! That is NOT Islam!

You complete dumbass - you dont deserve to say the word Islam. When you dont understand it - why the hell are you here talking about it?

Go - GET A LIFE!

To ABDULMATEEN ALI

Islam means Peace. You are an idiot for writing all the things you wrote just now. All the hard work of people who are trying desperately to change the way the world views us - means nothing to you right? Innocent people are dying for an evil little mind like yours? What a waste of perfectly good breathing space!

When I read your post, all I saw was a bitter maniac...that is NOT who we are! That is NOT Islam!

You complete dumbass - you dont deserve to say the word Islam. When you dont understand it - why the hell are you here talking about it?

Go - GET A LIFE!

To ABDULMATEEN ALI

Islam means Peace. You are an idiot for writing all the things you wrote just now. All the hard work of people who are trying desperately to change the way the world views us - means nothing to you right? Innocent people are dying for an evil little mind like yours? What a waste of perfectly good breathing space!

When I read your post, all I saw was a bitter maniac...that is NOT who we are! That is NOT Islam!

You complete dumbass - you dont deserve to say the word Islam. When you dont understand it - why the hell are you here talking about it?

Go - GET A LIFE!

Ted Baines

You are a liar. She was 19 and divorced.
Read her bio and how she talked about her father who recognized the prophet and declared his enmity to him.

Furthermore, how can one take his enemy as a wife? She would kill him in his bed while sleeping.
Would Bush sleep with Saddam's daughter and marry her??!

The fact of the matter is that Jews were in Medina waiting for a prophet whose description is in the Torah. When that prophet turned out to be an Arab, their racism took over. Some of them declared that he is a prophet (Major Rabbi of Medina that I don't recall his name, etc.), but the majority aligned themselves with the Pagans. Both were defeated by the final messenger of Allah.

We meet under the thrown of our Lord and we shall see who is the liar. In the meantime, pray for guidance for you are astray.

To ABDULMATEEN ALI

Islam means Peace. You are an idiot for writing all the things you wrote just now. All the hard work of people who are trying desperately to change the way the world views us - means nothing to you right? Innocent people are dying for an evil little mind like yours? What a waste of perfectly good breathing space!

When I read your post, all I saw was a bitter maniac...that is NOT who we are! That is NOT Islam!

You complete dumbass - you dont deserve to say the word Islam. When you dont understand it - why the hell are you here talking about it?

Go - GET A LIFE!

To ABDULMATEEN ALI

Islam means Peace. You are an idiot for writing all the things you wrote just now. All the hard work of people who are trying desperately to change the way the world views us - means nothing to you right? Innocent people are dying for an evil little mind like yours? What a waste of perfectly good breathing space!

When I read your post, all I saw was a bitter maniac...that is NOT who we are! That is NOT Islam!

You complete dumbass - you dont deserve to say the word Islam. When you dont understand it - why the hell are you here talking about it?

Go - GET A LIFE!

Good article. If only for the fact it drives anti-Semitic, Jew-hating bigots and racists the like we see below out into the daylight. They aren't fooling anyone, and prove the author's point directly. It's on par with the braying, howling mobs last year demanding the "peaceful" beheading and murder of cartoonists in Denmark, or the Pope in Rome, or even HM the Queen for knighting Rushdie. -- Or even sects of their own people, like the bombed Lebanese Christian politician(s). Their deluded hate just goes on and on and on regardless the target.... Jews, alas, just being one of their main targets, behind the West. The world, thankfully, isn't so stupid as to sit back any longer and quietly ignore this "peaceful" reality, and the fact is that no one is to blame for it other than the vicious animals who espouse and perpetrate it.

This is a stupid article. The initial premise is that anti-semetism is a problem in the american muslim community because Mr. Patel has heard it in a few places, including mosques and the mouths of Muslim teenagers.

On the otherhand, the new hip imams are correcting this by calling it evil, thereby being consistent with the 'silent majority' of Muslims.

But the truth is that american-muslims are no more antisemetic than the rest of the general population. either way, no muslim would be caught dead being a vocal antisemite.

the only reason that one may think that anti semetism is rampant in muslim communities is because of statements made by muslims outside the US. and those people don't listen to our hip imams.

so in short, this is completely pointless. the real reason for articles like this is that self aggrandizers like mr patel and sheik hamza yusuf want to curry favor in the american establishment.

The best way to do that is by beating a straw man.

People shouldn't hate other people for ethnic or religious differences. That's absolutely correct. There is some confusion, however, about the use of the term "anti-semitism." Historically, the Muslim Arabs are also considered Semites, so it doesn't make sense for any of them to be called "anti-semitic," unless you are talking about self-hatred as well. Perhaps you should have used terms like "anti-jewish", "anti-hebrew," "anti-israeli," etc.

Ebo,
Come to think about your piece, U actually lost all credibility-which is the price you have to pay for your appeasement of the jews-only those occupying or supporting the occupation of Palestine.

The Prophet (saas)was the semite par excllence,thou he was above triblism and clanishness and descibed it-tribalsim-as stinking. If we follw your grossly misleading title "Muslim anti-semitism," then we have no choice but to conclude that 1.6 billion Muslims hate the Prophet?? Think about that and think hard.

All Arabs and some Muslims can rightfully claim to be Semitic;few jews can do that,only those living in some Arab countries such as Yemen,Syria and Morocco. The overwhelming majority of the jews imported to Palestine are converts to Judaism from the Khzar tribes in Southern Russia and clearly non semites.Those Russian "jews" in israel are not even recognized as jews and are not even allowed a burial in jewish cemetries.Judaism is a a clanish and racist creed:you can be a jew only if your mother is jewish-an undisputed fact.Islam is color blind:Muslims come in all colors and races.Watch how exclusive and racist israel is-even the UN equated zionism with and as equal to racism.

Like the holocaust,Anti-semitism have been transformed by radical jews into an industry to portray the jews as victims and as a tool of black mail.How many millions of people perished in WW1 other than the jews? Yet all we hear about is the holocaust.Why because they have a louder voice:for example,jews are less than 2% of US population and yet have forty three members of congress!!!

Muslims don't hate the jews at all,they hate and condemen the so called "israelis" who have been tormenting Palestinians-Muslims/Christians-for the past sixty years and have occupied all of Arab historic Palestine.Muslims and all decent human beings hate and condemen the racist militaristic aparthied jewish theocracy occupying Palestine.By the same token does the jews occupying Palestine love Arabs and Muslims? Golda Mier said once "what Palestinians?," another israeli jew said they are insects,and another said they are snakes!!!

You have exposed yourself as a grand hypocrite because you never uttered a single word about the oppressed Palestinians or any other oppressed Muslims,never.

You ceratinly don't speak for American Muslims because of this blunderous opinion of yours-which is self serving.

Finally I challenge you to give us the name of one mosque in America that is anti-semitic? I can give you the mnames of numerous Mosques,institutions and universities where Muslims and non-Muslims express deep dismay,pain,and agony and even haterd for israel and its evil existance. If American jews support israel's existance to the negation and non-existance of the palestinians, then they deserve to condemened as well. Israel and its supporters stole all of Arab Palestine and on top of that they very deeply hate Arabs/Muslims just because they want their land back-they will get it back sooner or later.
In the mean time,don't make a fool of yourself again:you are either a person with a political agenda or self-hating Muslim like Salman Rushdi and Hirsi Ali.

Since a semite is a person who is in the lineage of people who spoke the semetic languages and arabics are semites (i.e. sons of Noah's son Shem) how can an arabic muslim be an antisemite unless the arabic muslim hates himself.

There is a difference between being an antisemite and being anti-hebrew. When you call an arabic muslim an antisemite aren't you in fact striping that muslim of his lineage to Abraham and Shem? Isn't it wrong of you to do so?

Funny how the very language we use explains the reason for the hatred. When you say that a person is anti-american does that hatred only apply to white americans or are black, latino, hebrew, arabic, indian, pakistani, korean, chinese, and native american included as well?

Islam greatly values humanity and it is the responsibility of every muslim to become a good example to all human beings.

To all Muslims who believe that if they die in a Jihad they will go straight to paradise to deflower seventy two virgins. I've got news for you! You won't be disappointed! (You have to exist to be disappointed).

Wake up Eboo!!!
Don't substitute actual facts with wishful thinking.
All religions except islam are BAD; ISLAM is WORST!!!

A a practicing Latter-day Saint (Mormon), I applaud your courage and intellectual honesty in acknowledging the humanity of all God's children. He cannot be happy when we disparage our fellow humans, for any reason.

it's good to talk about a topic which attracts all this concerns and worry..which may create hate and dislike between human race.but at the same time our writtings should be balanced and impartial in ordet our words to be heard by others. the writter talked about the muslim antisematism which is a topic of arguement and debate but also forgotten intentionally or unintentionally the hate which the jewish and the western countries have the muslims specialy their media,politicains and intelectuals.. a hate feeded by deep feeling of hatred and selfishness. we now that muslims are suffering today from the historical colonization of the west to their lands and the ever continuing theft of their wealth in more than dozen countries in the islamic world. so is that something which creates love or dislike? isn't it the western nations leaded by usa that invading and overthrowing some muslim governments while at the sametime encouraging and supporting other regimes which are more dictatorship and more aggressive to their citizens than those dismantled by the westerners.. if we try to list all the bad political decisions and actions taken by the westren leaders toward the muslim world it's uncountable from hundreds of years uptill now. and the the same perputuraters with their hands wet by the muslim blood and their bockets full by their wealth and complaining of the victims,isn't it ironic..no wonder that's the westren people mindset..

Dear Eboo,

I am not sure whether you have cleared the summary provided on the front page of the WAPO website for your piece, but just reading it made me want to puke.

So, I did not read your full piece above.

But I invite you to read my posting on the commentary column of Ms Mubarak in response to Ms. Victoria. I am reproducing it below.

I think that you don't know Islamic teachings nor Muslim practice. So you could consider shutting up.
ALLAH SUBHAANA-WATA'ALA'S APOSTLE (P.B.U.H.) SAID " THE STRONG IS NOT THE ONE WHO OVERCOMES THE PEOPLE WITH STEALTH; THE STRONG IS THE ONE WHO CONTROLS HIMSELF WHEN IN ANGER'.

I am writing about half an hour after sehri, the pre-dawn meal and just before I go to do my Fajr (dawn) prayer. May Allah bless you, sister, in this world and in the hereafter, and give you the courage to inspire others to follow in your footstep, including my sinful self.

During a military battle (I don't rememeber which one, but most likely on an occasion when marauders attacked the trading caravans belonging to the Prophet's [p.b.u.h.] house or to the sahaabas' [companions'] house) Umar-ibn-Al-Khattaab had been engaging the formidable leader of the marauders in a specially difficult sword fight. After much struggle, Umar was able to wrest the opponent's sword from his hand and throw him on the ground. Normally, Umar would have been satisfied at that and would let his oponent go, sure that the humbling effect of the defeat would wisen the opponent and force others to give second thoughts about rallying behind him again to attack the Muslims at a later time. But, overwhelmed by the ferocity of this difficult fight against a formidable opponent, Umar had raised his arm the feverish thought racing through his mind whther he should finish off his opponent as the opponent himself would have done, according to the ethics of combat of those times, inherited from pre-Islamic times.

Feverish in his own discomfiture (and, in his mind, humiliation) at an unprecedented defeat, the opponent wanted to at least humiliate the Great Umar (whom he had heard about) before dying. So, he spit in Umar's face. Umar grew more angry, but (Allah be pleased with him and give all Muslims the same strength) he immediately recalled the Prophet's (p.b.u.h.) teaching that you quoted above.

So he let his opponent go, as he normally would have, despite the ferocity of the fighting and with the additional factor that he had to control his anger.

This story is hardwired into the brain of every well-bred Muslim child because it is routinely taught to him or her from about the age of 3. It is a story as well-known to every Muslim child as is the story of the hare and the tortoise.

The Hammurabbi code (which is also that of the Old Testament) of 'an eye for an eye' was refined by Islamic ethics and jurisprudence more than 1400 years ago. The refinement says that: an aggrieved party has the RIGHT to demand an eye for an eye, but it is far, far better for him and for everybody else that he forgive, if he can and if he can be sure that, as a result of the forgiveness, an opportunity would not be created for the perpetrator of the malfeasance to commit an even greater malfeasance in future such that the Umma (society) would have been better off even if it had to bear the guilt feeling of having taken out of a human being the life that Allah Subhaana-Wata’ala has given him.

Generations of philosophers have debated this issue of truth, justice and forgiveness. The authors of the oft-cited book “The 100”, which lists and asesses the value of their impact on mankind (good and bad) of the 100 greatest men that ever lived, state that Muhammad (p.b.u.h.) is number one because his positive impact has been greatest. I don’t recall exactly who was number 2, maybe Isaac Newton. Issa ibn Mariam (Jesus Christ --Allah’s blessings be upon him) is number 3. The authors explain that, had the teaching attributed to Jesus about ‘turning the other cheek’ been a practicable way of life and had it been actually practiced, Jesus would certainly be their number 1 choice because, nominally, there are more Christians than Muslims. But firstly, there are more Christians in the world than Muslims only nominally, counting those who practice their religion, Muslims are more numerous; secondly, the teaching is impractical and therefore not practiced, because, as evolutionary biologists will tell you, on the one hand our brain (and thumbs and camera eyes, etc.) evolved according to the stimuli in our environment, and the process of ‘our general evolution unfolded without our brain in mind’(pun very much intended!).

Because Islam is a covenant between Allah and His creation individually (the Prophet himself is only a messenger, and other Ulemas, judges etc are only guides) Islamic justice and forgiveness does not deny the Muslim the right of an eye for an eye: it denies him the barbaric practice of using his force to exact more than an eye for an eye and empowers him to resort to the Umma’s (society’s) help in case his weakness may force him to accept less than an eye for an eye, and goes further to shower on him the blessing of the greater strength of forgiveness, in the context of the provisos mentioned above, with the assurance that Allah Subhaana-Wata’ala will reward him several times more for his magnanimity in forgiving.

Mahatma Gandhi, and indeed, many of those freedom fighters today hailed as the most enlightened, have quipped that the rule an eye for an eye will make the whole world blind. This is a total non-sequitur. There are two problems. Firstly, the Islamic (and probably also the Jewish) rule of an eye for an eye does not say that one MUST pull out the eye of someone who has been found guilty of pulling out the eye of an innocent. It says that the aggrieved party has a right to demand that and no judge can deny it to him, because the judge is not the one who knows the intensity of the aggrieved party’s suffering. The aggrieved party should not be COERCED to forgive, whether for his own good as perceived by others or for the Umma’s (society’s) good. He should be encouraged to forgive if the provisos referred to above are met. Secondly, the conclusion that the whole world would be blind assumes that everybody is or has at some point been either a perpetrator of some malfeasance or a victim, and that nobody is willing to forgive. The mistake made is not only this ‘fallacy of composition’, but the assumption behind the other fallacy (‘let those without sin throw the first stone’) that there is nobody without sin. There are many of is who have never sinned. But one must have the kindness towards ourselves to also recognize that. The skeptics think that we don’t exist just as they are certain that God does not exist.

Two final points, to ward of the accusations of naivety. There is no naivety, no cynicism. Islam is for this world and for the hereafter. “When the Friday prayers are done, spread over the earth and partake of the bounty of your Lord and give thanks to Him for His beneficence” says the Quran. The first point is that the robustness to the most modern scientific refinement of the concept of justice of teachings of the Quran as I have outlined above is every day being substantiated by the latest theoretical developments in Game Theory and the theses of The Theory of Justice by John Rawls. The second point is that, beyond theory, at the very empirical level of cliodynamics (the science of the behaviour of populations and development of social institutions in the dynamics of historical trends), Peter Turchin claims to detect patterns that support both the theses of Game Theory and the Islamic narrative because they are congruent with each other.

As per National Geographic, Palestine was originally settled by hominids from Africa followed by Canaanites and Philistines. We should give it back to the chimps who created said original hominids.

For $99.99, anyone living today can find out what chimp base they came from.
https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/

Whatever gandu

Arabs are semites, cruel occupiers are cruel occupiers. Rabbi David J Goldbereg's "Divided Self" (20006) has it all- the use of Holocaust since 1974 by the Diaspora is ...

Enough of this rambling about the Engligh term "Anti-Semitism/ite" applying to the Arab race or Muslims in general (who are actually Arab, but also Asians, Persians, Negroes, Caucasians, etc...). The word "Anti-Semitism/ite" in English doesn't, and it never has, been so applied. The term itself was invented in 1879, "created and popularized when German Jew-Hater Wilhelm Marr used it in his "The Way to Victory of Germanicism over Judaism" as a substitute [word] for "Jew-Hatred." [the then-popular term.] Marr thought that getting people to adopt "anti-Semitism" would make demonizing Jews sound more scientific and legitimate. Marr would later go on to found the "League of Anti-Semites", creating the first German organization explicitly dedicated to the destruction of the Jewish presence in Germany. To accomplish this task of making hating Jews respectable, "anti-Semitism" had to crowd out "Jew hating", and to that extent Marr has succeeded absolutely. It is rhetorically impossible to speak or write "Jew hater" or "Jew hatred" without sounding shrill - those phrases sound awkward to all but the most tin ears. Marr guaranteed that the only way that anyone could talk about hating Jews was to do so on terms that already stacked the deck in favor of making bigotry acceptable."

Mind you, I think the term "Islamophobia" is rather awkward and not all that accurate, like the English term "homophobia." Dislike or hatred of a thing doesn't mean one is "phobic" of the thing, but then again, I'm not a linguist. Words are words and their origins are important. Here, the term "Anti-Islamic" does not equate to "Anti-semitism," which simply means Jew-hatred/Anti-Jewish.

I suppose you haven't seen the Islamic websites that say, Muslims will take over the world. The Islam Topix net forum is full of Muslims abusing non-Muslims. If there ever was a fight now, it's non-Muslims verses Muslims trying to tell us what to say and do, i.e. cartoons and anything that doesn't agree with Islam. We're not stupid you know. I have loads of former Muslim friends who left Islam for the sole purpose of this superior attitude Muslims are taught. We’re tired of it and we will fight to the death to save our countries from Islamic super fascists.

Each day there are new stories of Muslim violence around the world. This violence is not only in Iraq but it is wherever Muslims live. Horrible, just horrible...In Switzerland 4 out 5 crimes are commmitted by Muslims...Fact is this is every place. It's just recent that the news is reporting that are Muslims ruining our countries.

Sheesh. I'm so tired of listening to the uninformed rants that so accurately parrot back the Palestinian propoganda that is Arafat's true legacy: Blaming Israel and the Jews for the world's problems, bemoaning Israel's "illegal occupation" and how Israel "stole Palestinian land". Israel existed for 2800+ years before the birth of Islam. And for those that obviously haven't figured it out yet, the "occupied territory" that the Palestinians "want back" is the entire State of Israel.

While it's encouraging to hear voices speaking out against antisemitism in Islam, it's not enough. The tens of thousands who applauded Shaykh Hamza need to be vocal as well. And while it's a problem in America, it is a horrific problem in Muslim countries overseas, and needs to be addressed.

Sheesh. I so tired of listening to the uninformed rants that so accurately parrot back the Palestinian propoganda that is Arafat's true legacy: Blaming Israel and the Jews for the world's problems, bemoaning Israel's "illegal occupation" and how Israel "stole Palestinian land". Israel existed for 2800+ years before the birth of Islam. And for those that obviously haven't figured it out yet, the "occupied territory" that the Palestinians "want back" is the entire State of Israel.

I suppose you haven't seen the Islamic websites that say, Muslims will take over the world. The Islam Topix net forum is full of Muslims abusing non-Muslims. If there ever was a fight now, it's non-Muslims verses Muslims trying to tell us what to say and do, i.e. cartoons and anything that doesn't agree with Islam. We're not stupid you know. I have loads of former Muslim friends who left Islam for the sole purpose of this superior attitude Muslims are taught. We’re tired of it and we will fight to the death to save our countries from Islamic super fascists.

Each day there are new stories of Muslim violence around the world. This violence is not only in Iraq but it is wherever Muslims live. Horrible, just horrible...In Switzerland 4 out 5 crimes are commmitted by Muslims...Fact is this is every place. It's just recent that the news is reporting they are Muslims ruining our countries.

I suppose you haven't seen the Islamic websites that say, Muslims will take over the world. The Islam Topix net forum is full of Muslims abusing non-Muslims. If there ever was a fight now, it's non-Muslims verses Muslims trying to tell us what to say and do, i.e. cartoons and anything that doesn't agree with Islam. We're not stupid you know. I have loads of former Muslim friends who left Islam for the sole purpose of this superior attitude Muslims are taught. We’re tired of it and we will fight to the death to save our countries from Islamic super fascists.

Each day there are new stories of Muslim violence around the world. This violence is not only in Iraq but it is wherever Muslims live. Horrible, just horrible...In Switzerland 4 out 5 crimes are commmitted by Muslims...Fact is this is every place. It's just recent that the news is reporting that are Muslims ruining our countries.

The tragedy is that there really shouldn't be any "faith divide." It has been created, more or less deliberately, by people in power using religion to compete for domination. Actually, all three faiths come from the same ancient sources, and their scriptures all preach tolerance of each other.

There have been long periods of time when they co-existed peaceably, and they can do so again -- as soon as (and not before) the majority of their believers see how religions are being used to stir up fear and anger. Then people will not fall prey to being manipulated, and leaders whose main interest is in dominating others will no longer be effective.

Ok let me take a deep breath.
All of you spouting intolerance and hate, please STOP! That's what this is all about. All racism (of any kind) is motivated by fear of "other". It is particularly ironic between the Islamic and Jewish worlds because indeed we are of the same Semitic line. History generally accepts that those known as "Jewish" are descendants of Abraham's son Isaac, and the "Arabic" peoples are children of Abraham's son Ishmael. If there's another theory I would be interested to hear it, but like the rest of the religious theories offered as microcosm in the comments pertaining to this article, it really doesn't matter. Race is an illusion perpetrated by our society(ies). Genetically, we are all the same. "Racial" differences have essentially no genetic basis.
My brothers and sisters, I hope that one day the scales will be lifted form all our eyes, and we will see each other truly, similarities and differences, warts and all.
To quote the late Bill Hicks, "It's a round world last time I checked."

The title of this piece is misleading an in itself is an “ anti-Muslim” racism.

Islam as a faith has no problem with Jews for being Jews or with the Jewish faith itself, or any other religion for that matter. They’re perhaps some Muslims who express ugly remarks against Jews, and that’s wrong, but that does not mean that “anti-Jews” is something inherent to Muslim faith or Muslims.

Mr. Patel did not even bother to tell us how Muslims practice their alleged “ anti-Semitism. Though in Israel, anti-Arab and anti-Muslim racism is in full bloom and practiced with official and legal sanction.

The Muslim world has a problem with Israel, which characterizes itself as a “Jewish state” that is for Jews only, excluding Muslim and Christian natives, because that it continues to occupy Palestinian lands, oppress Muslims, and destroy Muslim and Christian places of worship and Muslim properties. In light of all this, does Mr. Patel want Muslim to actually cheer for Israel!

The title of this piece is misleading an in itself is an “ anti-Muslim” racism.

Islam as a faith has no problem with Jews for being Jews or with the Jewish faith itself, or any other religion for that matter. They’re perhaps some Muslims who express ugly remarks against Jews, and that’s wrong, but that does not mean that “anti-Jews” is something inherent to Muslim faith or Muslims.

Mr. Patel did not even bother to tell us how Muslims practice their alleged “ anti-Semitism. Though in Israel, anti-Arab and anti-Muslim racism is in full bloom and practiced with official and legal sanction.

The Muslim world has a problem with Israel, which characterizes itself as a “Jewish state” that is for Jews only, excluding Muslim and Christian natives, because that it continues to occupy Palestinian lands, oppress Muslims, and destroy Muslim and Christian places of worship and Muslim properties. In light of all this, does Mr. Patel want Muslim to actually cheer for Israel!

"And there are non-Muslims – people who shout loudly ‘Where are the moderate Muslim voices?’ and then shout louder when those voices speak to make sure they are not heard. They seem invested in Muslims being antisemitic, of Islam being interpreted as an intolerant tradition."

You hit the nail on the head! Just look at all the Muslim-bashing posts today. But this is SOP for that crowd.

Abu Zaid

Saffiya was a Jewish widow, 15 years old. Muhammad murdered her husband and father and the same night he brought her to his tent and raped the child.

She was kept as his slave concubine for some time and eventually the child gave in consented to become a Muslim.

Only then did the rapist prophet marry her.

In the case of Maria, another slave girl of his, she refused to become a Muslim. She was only 15 when the ruler of Egypt gave to Muhammad for his sexual pleasure.

Maria was raped repeatedly by Muhammad and bore Muhammad a male child Ibrahim who died while an infant.

The person USAM (OSAMA?) keeps referring to RSS as a terrorist group. RSS was formed to protect Hindus from the terror of the jihadists in India. How many RSS blew themselves up to go to heaven to collect 70 virgins each, and to sit on the right side of the grand Allah? We will never forget the millions of Hindus slaughtered in Pakistan and Bangaladesh. I wish there was a militant RSS in 1947 to push out Islam totally out of India. India would have been a much safer country today. My ancestors lived in Kashmir for thousands of years, even before there was a Muhammad. The onslaughts of the Islamic barbarians over the last 700 years have all but eradicated my people. Talk about genocide. The Muslims did just that to the Hindus in Kashmir. We can't even go to our own homes in Kashmir due to these barbarians. Islam is evil from the day it was created. There is nothing good in it, and there will never be anything good in it. All it produced is millions of neanderthal brained barbarians. Unfortunately, they continue to breed in huge numbers. We don’t have a big jihadi problem in the USA only because of your small population. Wait for another 100 years, and then we will see. I don't see any solution. Hurray to the Israelis, they have the guts to stand up and step on some of them.

Give me a break. One of the wives of Prophet Mohammad is a jew. Her name is Saffeyyah bint Huyyay. She is called Umm Al-Mo'mineen (Mother of the Believers)
Mohammad is a Semite too!

A funny article. I enjoyed the ignorance of Mr. Patel on the subject. It is my advice and request that the writers should be fully adept in the subject before giving their views. Semiticism and Jewish faith are two different words carry different meanings, similarly as the "Jews" and "Israeli" are two different words.
Semite is one of the four races the anthropologists and historians have categorised the mankind and the people living in North Africa to Saudi Arabia are from the stock of the Semites. People of Iran are Aryans while the people of India are the admixture of the Aryans and Hemites (Dravidians) races. Jews are the Semites like the Arabs. Muslims are not against the Jews, they are against the Israelis who established a state in the very heartland of the Arabs with the help of UK and now the patronage of USA. One who distorts history and tries to walk in vacuume ultimately falls into ditch.
One thing that I learnt from your article is that instead preaching Interfaith cooperation you are after preaching Interfaith hatred for your own twisted purposes to poison the Americans against the Muslims.

A funny article. I enjoyed the ignorance of Mr. Patel on the subject. It is my advice and request that the writers should be fully adept in the subject before giving their views. Semiticism and Jewish faith are two different words carry different meanings, similarly as the "Jews" and "Israeli" are two different words.
Semite is one of the four races the anthropologists and historians have categorised the mankind and the people living in North Africa to Saudi Arabia are from the stock of the Semites. People of Iran are Aryans while the people of India are the admixture of the Aryans and Hemites (Dravidians) races. Jews are the Semites like the Arabs. Muslims are not against the Jews, they are against the Israelis who established a state in the very heartland of the Arabs with the help of UK and now the patronage of USA. One who distorts history and tries to walk in vacuume ultimately falls into ditch.
One thing that I learnt from your article is that instead preaching Interfaith cooperation you are after preaching Interfaith hatred for your own twisted purposes to poison the Americans against the Muslims.

A funny article. I enjoyed the ignorance of Mr. Patel on the subject. It is my advice and request that the writers should be fully adept in the subject before giving their views. Semiticism and Jewish faith are two different words carry different meanings, similarly as the "Jews" and "Israeli" are two different words.
Semite is one of the four races the anthropologists and historians have categorised the mankind and the people living in North Africa to Saudi Arabia are from the stock of the Semites. People of Iran are Aryans while the people of India are the admixture of the Aryans and Hemites (Dravidians) races. Jews are the Semites like the Arabs. Muslims are not against the Jews, they are against the Israelis who established a state in the very heartland of the Arabs with the help of UK and now the patronage of USA. One who distorts history and tries to walk in vacuume ultimately falls into ditch.
One thing that I learnt from your article is that instead preaching Interfaith cooperation you are after preaching Interfaith hatred for your own twisted purposes to poison the Americans against the Muslims.

Give me a break. One of the wives of Prophet Mohammad is a jew. Her name is Saffeyyah bint Huyyay. She is called Umm Al-Mo'mineen (Mother of the Believers)
Mohammad is a Semite too!

I think your article is a pathetic attempt to gain some credibility. It serves no purpose other than to incite more ill will on both sides as reflected in these comments.

Religion breeds hate. Muslims may hate Jews but they hate Muslims too. Shiites kill Sunnis and Sunnis kill Shiites. The only thing Shiites and Sunnis agree on is they both hate the Jews. Those that breed hate will see their results come back to kill themselves.

Bengallee babu

Could you enlighten us about conversion laws in Saudi Arabia where a Muslim wishing to leave Islam is killed and the same in many otehr Muslim countries?

How about the 3 million Hindus killed in Bangladesh?

And Israel chooses Yom Kippur to decide it is time to starve the Palestinians to death in their Warsaw Ghetto.

History repeats itself and here we have the Washington Post paying Muslims to demand everyone be super-nice to zionists.

First, as a Muslim, let me state that I categorically deplore antisemitism in any shape or form - Muslim or otherwise. However, one has to examine the root cause of these ugly feelings. How is it that Muslims that protected Jews in Spain now are against them? The simple fact is that gradually over the last 40 years, the territorial conflict between Palestinians and Israelis was deliberately turned into a religious conflict by both sides. Fundamentalist Jews and Muslims have done their best to crate chasm between two faiths to advance their territorial claims and earn the sympathies and collect funds from their respective communities. It is, therefore, imperative that all of us must denounce these fundamentalists on both sides of the aisle. Racism against Christians, Jews or Muslims is just that: racism.

Funny is it not in a world where millions of people still worship idols we have one person so hell bent on proving Muslims are anti semitic he forgets 'semitic' also covers non jewish people.

But in today's bash Muslims wherever and whenever world, we have Mr. Patel give us his two cents worth of propaganda.

Maybe we should send him to Gujarat next!

Or make him write about how laws have been passed banning conversions in some parts of India!

I've been living in the west for 16 years and have not heard one speech that is anti semitic at any masjid, and I've been blessed with having visited dozens, but Mr. Patel seems to have the inside scoop on how we really think!

Pitiful such blatant generalizations are supported by the WP.

But then again the WP has never been anything but a mouthpiece for special interests and a pseudo liberal paper!

As for the article if you read carefully you'll see the start is like shock and awe and the middle tells a different story about a minority being anti semitic. As in "by the minority of Muslims"

Reprehensible how the faults of a minority can be used to attack the character of the majority!

Funny is it not in a world where millions of people still worship idols we have one person so hell bent on proving Muslims are anti semitic he forgets 'semitic' also covers non jewish people.

But in today's bash Muslims wherever and whenever world, we have Mr. Patel give us his two cents worth of propaganda.

Maybe we should send him to Gujarat next!

Or make him write about how laws have been passed banning conversions in some parts of India!

I've been living in the west for 16 years and have not heard one speech that is anti semitic at any masjid, and I've been blessed with having visited dozens, but Mr. Patel seems to have the inside scoop on how we really think!

Pitiful such blatant generalizations are supported by the WP.

But then again the WP has never been anything but a mouthpiece for special interests and a pseudo liberal paper!

As for the article if you read carefully you'll see the start is like shock and awe and the middle tells a different story about a minority being anti semitic. As in "by the minority of Muslims"

Reprehensible how the faults of a minority can be used to attack the character of the majority!

Show me a single case where a muslim person who wanted to convert into another faith by his/ her free choice, has done it. There are many muslim females specially in Europe who want to convert out of the rigid and very conservative muslim faith are not able to do that as they are threatened to be killed. Muslims throughout the history of last 1000 years have been good in killing for any small reason. Show me a Buddha or Gandhi in Muslim world. There is none. There is only Changez Khan, Saddam Hussain, Khomeinis, dictators like series of military presidents in pakistan, Saudi Kings or Syrian king.
So far there is only one country which I respect is Turkey which so far is holding out to Islamic fundamentalism.
The root problem is that Muslims have started enjoying the false propaganda being aired through TV stations like Al Zazzera where constantly they are showing that western world is out there to kill muslims and they are the reasons for suffering like in Iraq. And that gives birth to brain washed young suicide bombers.
I have yet to see any revolution in any Muslim country against the education of hate and killing and revenge to their masses. The Islamic society is sure following the path of doom and destruction, if they don't awake now.

Show me a single case where a muslim person who wanted to convert into another faith by his/ her free choice, has done it. There are many muslim females specially in Europe who want to convert out of the rigid and very conservative muslim faith are not able to do that as they are threatened to be killed. Muslims throughout the history of last 1000 years have been good in killing for any small reason. Show me a Buddha or Gandhi in Muslim world. There is none. There is only Changez Khan, Saddam Hussain, Khomeinis, dictators like series of military presidents in pakistan, Saudi Kings or Syrian king.
So far there is only one country which I respect is Turkey which so far is holding out to Islamic fundamentalism.
The root problem is that Muslims have started enjoying the false propaganda being aired through TV stations like Al Zazzera where constantly they are shoing that western world is out there to kill muslims and they are the reasons for suffereing like in Iraq. And that gives birth to brain washed young suicide bombers.
I have yet to see any revolution in any Muslim country against the education of hate and killing and revenge to their masses. The Islamic society is sure following the path of doom and destruction, if they don't awake now.

Show me a single case where a muslim person who wanted to convert into another faith by his/ her free choice, has done it. There are many muslim females specially in Europe who want to convert out of the rigid and very conservative muslim faith are not able to do that as they are threatened to be killed. Muslims throughout the history of last 1000 years have been good in killing for any small reason. Show me a Buddha or Gandhi in Muslim world. There is none. There is only Changez Khan, Saddam Hussain, Khomeinis, dictators like series of military presidents in pakistan, Saudi Kings or Syrian king.
So far there is only one country which I respect is Turket which so far is holding out to Islamic fundamentalism.
The root problem is that Muslims have started enjoying the false propaganda being aired through TV stations like Al Zazzera where constantly they are shoing that western world is out there to kill muslims and they are the reasons for suffereing like in Iraq. And that gives birth to brain washed young suicide bombers.
I have yet to see any revolution in any Muslim country against the education of hate and killing and revenge to their masses. The Islamic society is sure following the path of doom and destruction, if they don't awake now.

Eboo Patel,

It is anti-Israel not antisemitism....
but I think you already know it....
and want intentionally to mix it....

WHO PAID YOU... APIAC or MOSSAD...???

Muslims, the US lets you open/run mosques where you denounce the US/Chrisitans/Jews behind closed doors....basically anyone who doesnt share your warped view on the world. Do you think Pakistan, Jordan, Syria, Iran would allow a religion to openly denounce Islam? What do you think would happen to these churches who did that? KABOOM!

We/USA are better then you. Get over it. And your religion justifies killing your own people through secular violence. Sounds very stupid. And you clowns hate jews so much, just like the Nazi's.

Mr. Patel:

"There are Muslims who for their own twisted purposes or petty power games have something to gain by further poisoning their own community with antisemitism."

Have you not covered the whole human race? Are there not Hindus, Christians and Jews who coulds be accused of this?

Until the jews are cleared of Palestine, from Egypt to Lebanon and from the Mediterranean to Jordan, and from all Muslim lands, they will continue to be a danger to all Muslims. This is why some Muslims express displeasure with jews who support Zionism. The two religions lived in peace until the jews began their campaign of terror in the 1930s, and escalated it wanton carnage following WW II. Anything al Quaeda has done, the jews did far worse in their continuing quest to steal Palestine from its rightful Muslim owners.

Mr. Patel's acknowledgement of the ubiquitous nature of anti-semitism in the modern Islamic world is appreciated. However, he is simply incorrect when he states that it is a "violation of the ethos of Islam." Indeed, the Koran (believed to be the literal words of Allah) contains dozens of anti-Semitic verses, including those depicting Jews as wretched, disobedient, cursed, evildoing, perverted, rebellious, treacherous, lying, usurous, idolatrous, cheating, deceivers, minions of the devil, murderers of prophets, apes and swine, and perhaps most importantly, eternally cursed to be humiliated. Important Islamic theologians throughout the ages have echoed these hateful sentiments as have the action of Muslims themselves. Until this issue is tackled forthrightly by Muslims themselves, Muslim anti-semitism will continue to endure, completely distinct from any particular geopolitical conflict.

Asim

Answer a simple question.

Are you for or against allowing non-Muslims freedom of worship in Saudi Arabia , including the right of building churches etc in Mecca and Medina.

Note that we are not asking that a church be built inside the kaaba complex. but Mecca is a big city and I am sure that non-Muslims would like to live in Mecca and have their own place of worship just as Muslims live in Rome and have mosques in Rome but not inside the Vatican which is a small part of Rome, a very small part.

Regarding Banu Quraiza, are you saying that it was ok for Muhammad to kill Jewish boys whose only crime was that thay had sprouted pubic hair?

Finally about Jews going back to Mecca and the rest of Saudi Arabia, the Jews were there at least as long before that the Arabs were there. If you insist that Arabs have a right to return to Israel then surely you will accord the same rights to Jews regarding Arabia and give half of Arabia back to them.

Remember Muhammad stole half of Arabia from the Jews.

it is time Muslims atoned for the atrocities that Muhammad and Muslims perpetrated on the Jews.

Let's get something straight. It is part of the holy Koran to kill and smite the Jews, as well as other infidels. We put forth this continuing fallacy that we love the jews and are not antisemites, we just hate Israel. Well, that is all bull. We muslims HATE the jews. We do want genocide is Israel, and everywhere else we can make it happen, that is why we sided with the nazis in WWII. And let me tell you something else, we will kill all Christians that will not sincerely covert to Islam. It is our duty to make them covert or to kill them or to imprison them and all other infidels.

So whenever you see comments from people like Asim here, just remember, he is required to say things like muslims don't hate the jews they just want to get back our lands that were stolen by the evil zionists. But it is all BS, as it looks to me like we are winning. The Democrat party in the US and even some of the Republicans are now crying to leave Iraq. Soon they will be saying the same things about Afghanistan as our brother continue to attack and kill the infidels there.

Islam is meant to be the dominant force on the earth and we will not rest until it is; but frankly, the way the West is surrendering (we already own London, Detroit and Dearborn)we may do it without firing a shot. You non-muslims are weak and deserve to be defeated.

To Aaron,

If I misread your message please forgive me. However, I am very tired of the notion that somehow religious Judaism is somehow equivalent to fanatical Islam. There really is no comparison. As stated earlier, Jews don't do so much of the head chopping, woman suppression, brutal execution of gay people or deliberate targeting of civilians.

That someone could speak "as a Jew" and promote some sort of equivalence is doubly painful. As to should you speak as a member of another faith, you should speak as yourself. You are no learned Rabbi who could speak for Jews "as a Jew" and promote the notion that what you say has any weight with the community that you have obviously turned your back on.

As to what does Yom Kippur have to do with it, well, by Yom Kippur, I pray you figure it out.

Some solutions:

1. Rewrite the OT, NT and Koran in historical terms leaving out the embellishments, myths and fortune telling.

2. Have Israelites live within the 1948 borders established by the UN protocols.

3. Make Jerusalem an international city under the control of the UN.

4. Have the UN control the water supplies in the Jordan Valley.

5. Have Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iran, Dubai, Bahrain et al use their oil profits to build and run desalination plants in the Middle East to include Palestine. Ditto for solar energy systems. (Note: If 10% of Nevada was covered with solar cells, said cells would provide all of the USA's electrical needs).

6. Relocate Palestinian refugees currently in Lebanon and Jordan to the new utopias made available by #5.

Muslim anti semitism, is a product of ignorance. But, westerners, are guilty of anti
muslim biases,as well. Both are hard to erase. Anti-semitism in the U S is alive and well. Anti foreignerism....also exists, especially among the
"under educated rednecks. (Am I allowed to say,
rednecked bubbas).

I am glad I am a reborn atheist. I think all these three faiths beleivers should have their own planet and be anti what ever...

The only flourishing anti-something in the world today is anti-islam. Not sure what are you trying to prove with this piece here? It is not what you or any muslim write that will change this environment. As a writer, you should not take a defensive posture against the hypocrytical positions that know no limits in deceiving and lying to paint images of Islam that do not exist. You can carry the same message in your piece but with a different tone and with less sucking to appease those who only attack Islam on no real basis. Will your job be on the line if you did that? Now that will be anti-islamic move, wouldn't it be!?

to A Hermit:

http://memritv.org/

Sir, Memri has never been accused of a false translation. While it is absolutely true that the organization has the goal of exposing Middle Eastern Media for what it is, they have no need to make anything up. Many Arab and Iranian leaders have been embarassed when the message that they send to the West on the Western media gets put side to side with what they say at home.
As such, Memri has many on that side who try to discredit it.

In the case of Zero Point Turn, the reality is that the state run, and Supreme Leader approved television of Iran is promoting the vile lie that Zionist Jews worked with Hitler to cause the Holocaust. They claim that the Zionists wanted the Holocaust to eliminate Jews who had no desire to go to the Israel.

See it for yourself. The story, the accurate story, is also in the German press. If you can read German, check out Der Spiegel.

http://memritv.org/

Ironic that this article brings all the Jew Haters out of the wood work.

Israel Commiting Genocide? This is probably the most ridiculous and grotesque lie spouted by these thugs

Ironic that this article brings all the Jew Haters out of the woodwork.

Israel Commiting Genocide? This is probably the most ridiculous and grotesque lie spouted by these thugs

In response to A Hermit:

Sir, Memri has *never* been accused of a false translation. It is absolutely true that the people of Memri have the goal of exposing Middle Eastern media for what it is. As such, many on that side who are afraid that people will see it for what it is do everything in thier power to discredit Memri. The media is so vile as it is however, that no one would need to make anything up.

In the case of Zero Point Turn, the translation is accurate, and the message is what you would expect from the government of Iran.

It is a truely mean bit of work. See for yourself.

Please do not confuse 'jews' with 'zionists'. Muslims have nothing against jews. Zionism is a totally different creed. It is based on injustice, oppression and racisim. There are many Jews who condemn zionism as well. When holocaust happened, the zionists stood by and watched their fellow jews who were being slaughtered. All b/c they could cry later and get sympathy votes. And they did. They have stolen land and would not allow a huge population, living in limited space to become a state or even have an appropriate share of water supply. And guess what? They get all the sympathy from US. Today ridiculing the Prophet of 1.3 billion Muslims is fair speech, but having even a difference of opinion on holocaust is illegal. It is amazing how much propoganda exists in US and how gullible Americans are. Ironically, Israeli oppression has gone far enough that the same lies cannot be repeated too often. Many people in US are now opening their eyes. Alhamdolilah!

Eboo,
I sincerely appreciate your post. One of the things that I think all religious communities, my own included, need to learn how to do is both own and stand against the dark parts of our history. I appreciate the honesty with which you have chosen to confront the issue of Antisemitism within the Muslim community, as well as pointing to Muslim leaders who oppose such bigotry.

Sadly, I think that their statements are overlooked by many who would continue to propagate hatred, which is why I am glad that you are using your voice in this forum to highlight the messages of those who would advocate for peace. I think that in doing so you uphold the Qur'anic prophetic paradigm of speaking the truth to one's own community and challenging them to live out a higher ideal. May others follow your lead. Many blessings upon you and your family. Ramadan mubarak.

Sincerely,

Nicholas Price

You say the antisemites are a minority in the Muslim community. I question that.

You say the antisemites are a minority in the Muslim community. I question that.

You say the antisemites are a minority in the Muslim community. I question that.

You say the antisemites are a minority in the Muslim community. I question that.

It saddens me that nearly none of the posts here are without bile, particularly when this kind of animosity is exactly what Mr. Patel has set out to fight. The fact of the matter is that both sides have legitimate gripes. Israel's actions are morally questionable at best, but so are those of Hamas, not to mention the many other less-than-peaceful Muslim groups. This does not mean that all Jews, or all Muslims, are evil, but that many are ignorant, and that many more see their situation as so hopeless that they have become fools of frustration, thinking that only violence can solve their problems. Of course, violence begets only violence, not peace, and not victory.

This quibbling over what is a Semite is pointless and a distraction. Don't want to call it antisemitism? Fine. Don't. Call it Jew hating. And stop doing it. And the Jews should stop Muslim hating too.

Jews, and good Muslims, should disparage the terrorist infrastructure, and any group that calls for the death of all Jews, and any imam who condones the killing of non-Muslims. But they should not hate all Muslims.

Muslims, and good Jews, should disparage the actions of the state of Israel when it bulldozes or bombs a civilian neighborhood. Sure, but to hate all jews is not and cannot be accepted or deemed moral by anyone, no more than blanket hatred of any ethnicity is acceptable.

I

You say the antisemites are a minority in the Muslim community. I question that.

You say the antisemites are a minority in the Muslim community. I question that.

You say the antisemites are a minority in the Muslim community. I question that.

A quick look at these comments explains why the whole Muslim world is a mess, and they call themselves brothers. They hate, hate, hate, and justify killing each other, their neighbours, and even their own childrem. When they learn to live together, just possibly it will be possible to call them human.

A quick look at these comments explains why the whole Muslim world is a mess, and they call themselves brothers. They hate, hate, hate, and justify killing each other, their neighbours, and even their own childrem. When they learn to live together, just possibly it will be possible to call them human.

A quick look at these comments explains why the whole Muslim world is a mess, and they call themselves brothers. They hate, hate, hate, and justify killing each other, their neighbours, and even their own childrem. When they learn to live together, just possibly it will be possible to call them human.

Thank you for expressing these sentiments. It would be a significant victory for those of us who strongly endorse Mr. Patel's assertions if such thoughts appeared throughout Western Europe's Islamic press and media outlets throughout the Islamic world.
Unfortunately, that is not the case. In fact, there is a group that monitors Middle East media and translates articles into English, the Middle East Media Research Institute. Their website is
www.memri.org. Generally, following this website is an experience in horror and also paranoia for anyone who shares Mr. Patel's views.

Ahro,
Unfortunately, Jewish people throughout the world have tied themselves into Israel as if they are one in the same. By continuing to refer to Israel as "The Jewish State", everyone is guilty of making hatred for one, hatred for the other.

The result? Every time Jewish people say hating Israel is anti-semitic, you eventually convince people that hate what Israel does that they are anti-semites, and they begin to act in that way, by treating Jewish people as an extension of Israel.

It's sad, really.

Muslims are not only verbally and visionsly attacking Jews, but Christians as well. Their newspapers, magazines, and other media contain file representations of both.

The poor Wash Post had to censor "Opus" because the sensibilities of Muslims might be harmed. What a crock.

Why aren't Muslims cleaning up their own houses? Where are the Muslim voices condemning these things? It is time to remove the log in your own eye.

Eboo:

I appreciate your multicultural equanimity, but the problem isn't the religious differences btwn Semites, Jewish and Arab;

the problem is their God doesn't exist!

It's hard to stop people from killing each other over something they insist exists, but actually doesn't.

I know that this fact doesn't make it any easier for all of us involved in the Bible-driven genocides past present and future, but we should at least be honest, shouldn't we?

Eboo:

I appreciate your multicultural equanimity, but the problem isn't the religious differences btwn Semites, Jewish and Arab;

the problem is their God doesn't exist!

It's hard to stop people from killing each other over something they insist exists, but actually doesn't.

I know that this fact doesn't make it any easier for all of us involved in the genocides past present and future, but we should at least be honest, shouldn't we?

Jai Khosla,
Just tell us: why the hell would Muslims kill three million hindu worshipping cows and snakes?

God,was there another holocaust in India that was kept a secret?

Joe,
U say "What of charters that ((call)) for the death of ((all)) Jews? But the jews are the ones who have been murdering Muslims in Palestine for sixty years!! Why do u people all make jews sound as if they were the victims-when in fact they are the excutioners and the tormentors of Muslims.

it seems that any negative portrayal of Israel is being regarded as antisemitism. Anyone who dares questions Israel's policy is considered an antisemite. Case in point, Carter was called antisemitic for calling Israel for what it is; an apartheid regime. There is a difference between antisemitic and anti Israeli. get that straight! Israel is no different at being antisemitic for its racial and repressive policies of the semitic population of Palestine. Just like the US is also considered antisemitic for its degrading occupation of the Iraqi people. Folks, the Arabs are just as semitic as the jews. Get that through your heads.

just stop killing people (by flying airplanes into skyscrapers, and the like) and you'll be peacefully left alone.

Mr Patel,
Talk about the month of blessings, The Ramadan Mubarik, Where all Belivers not only respect this month but also stay away from the evil things, This is not a good time for article like this one.

But, what if they are stealing your homes and running you off your land and forcing you to live in a ghetto like pigs and then cutting off your supplies and turning off your power and turning off your water and what if they come into the ghetto once or twice a week and bulldoze down the shack you just built with your bare hands and then before they leave they murder a few more of your children just to remind you of your place.
Is it okay to hate them, now, traitor?

Grow up Patel, This all you got, some where you are trying to get you piece of fame from lighting up issues and spreading hate, This is very poor and cheep article what so ever,

While some Muslims are no doubt anti-Semite, they are more likely to be anti-Jew, Arabic being a semitic language, and Arabs, even the Muslim majority, being Semites.

Candide--so would Islamic conversion to Judaism.

The hateful words Eboo's post has elicited forces us to ponder what is wrong with our world.

Ted Baines:
You recycled propaganda of resuracting the treachourous jewish tribe of Banu Quriza from the dead over 1400 yeras ago-while your jewish sibilings in israel bury Palestinians evry day in their own homeland ,Palestine.

1// To statrt with why the hell does a jew want to go to Mecca? however jews should be allowed as soon as the jewish racist Apartheid state occupying all of Arab Palestine for the past sixty years allow the five million Palestinian refugees back to their homes in Jerusalem,Haifa, Jaffa, Acre and Tel Aviv whom the jews ethnically cleansed from in 1947/8 and 1967 and only after the jews rebuild over five hundred Palestinian towns and villages they destroyed in 1947/8 to prevent Palestinians from returnining to their Palestine.
2// On the treachery/treason committed by the jewish tribe of Banu Quriza in Medina against the infant Muslim state of the Prophet in the 7th century, here is the true story by all historical accounts: Before some of the posters here go back 1400 years to talk about the justice administered to the treacherous Jewish tribe of Banu Qorizah in Medina, they should look at the recent genocide of Muslims in Bosnia, Lebanon and the on going genocide of course in Palestine:

Eight thousand Bosnian Muslim boys and men were handcuffed, blindfolded and led to by Serbs Orthodox Christians and with full knowledge of the UN Dutch military unit (Protestant and Catholic Christians) to a forest in Bosnia just outside Sbernicha: they were murdered in cold blood, en masse genocide-summary executions; thou those innocent victims were European Slavs and citizens of ex-Yugoslavia, their only crime was that they were Muslim. This did not happen 2000 years ago, it happened in 1991.The total number of Muslims murdered by the Christian Serbs in that war exceeded 250,000 including mass rape of children and women in the heart of and while “Civilized Christian Europe” looked on. The number would have been much higher were not for the intervention of USA to protect whatever remained of Muslim population.

So who is violent?
Now on the treacherous jewish tribe of Banu Quriza:During the reign of the Prophet in the city/state of Medina early 7th century, every one was a full citizen with full civic and religious rights: the new Muslims, Christians, the Jews and the Pagans of Arabia. The Quran states unequivocally that” No Compulsion in Religion).The Prophet who just established the first Islamic city/state in Medina, had signed a treaty with-among others-the Jewish tribe of Banu Qorizah-to defend the new state and where the treaty stipulated that the members of this tribe being citizens of the new Islamic city-state agreed never to ally themselves with the enemies of the infant Islamic state nor to carry arms against it in exchange for granting them-the Jewish tribe- the aforementioned full citizenship rights including guarantying their protection and security. However the Jewish tribe conspired with enemies of the Islamic state and committed treason, treachery and violated the treaty by joining the enemies of the state against the Muslims.
The Islamic state, lead by the Prophet defatted the aggressors on the battlefield; thereafter the Prophet and the leaders of the Jewish tribe mutually agreed to appointing an acceptable and neutral arbitrator/Judge to rule on the violation of the treaty which the Jewish tribe violated and the Judge ruled that the Jewish tribe was guilty of both joint military aggression with the enemies of the infant Islamic state as well as treason thru violating the treaty the signed with the Prophet as they were citizen of Islamic state. The judge ordered the death penalty to be carried out against the treacherous members of the tribe who committed treason and aggression-as any state would do in self-defense even by modern standards of international law. The numbers of those deserving the death penalty is both exaggerated and fabricated by Jews as usual.

Jonthan Pollard would have already been excuted for his treason(Spying for israel where his loyalty lies)if were it not for the influnce and lobbying of AIPAC.

Ebo-

This is the only subject you can write about Muslims in America?! Arabs that are muslim are semetic people too. How about the daily racist, anti semetic laws and behavior coming from the state of Israel towards palestinian-muslim-christian arabs? Get with it.

It is ironic indeed that the phrase 'anti-semitism' is reserved for Israelis or Jewish people when Arabs are Semite people too. Please stop misusing the 'Semite' word.

Yes, i agree that muslims must also fight Antisemitism, but it's going to be difficult when you see or read what is happening to the palestenians.

Ebo,
So you are now becoming a appeaser of the jewish lobby-do u have any political ambitions?

Muslim anti-semitism? what is that? How? But many Muslims esepcially the Arabs are pure semites-it follows that Muslim Arabs hate themselves?what madness is this? clearly you don't know your priorities:you should tell your jews to stop torturing and occupying Palestinians who live in jewish-administered cocentration camps or refugee camps for the past 60 years;it was jews-AIPAC and israel-who actually promoted the disastrous war on Iraq and are agitating for another on Iran-which is scrambling to acquire nuclear weapons to protect itself from israel's fromidable nuclear arsenal.

Just look at the hatred and lies above posts by jews-that is really anti-Arab semitism,look at the hate messages against Islam and Muslims.

I have great respect for Shiek Hamza Yousef but words -if true never break bones-and Arabs/Muslims are the only people in history who treated jews with compassion and kindeness,after all the Inquisition and the holocaust did not occur in Palestine.

Muslims don't hate jews,they just want their land back,Palestine,so the millions of palestinian refugees can go back to Jerusalem,Haifa and Tel Aviv.Peace will never prevail without Palestine-go ask Palestinians.

Ebo,you need to get your priorities right and thou I respect your opinion, you certainly are not an elected representative of Muslims especially American Muslims and certainly don't reflect their opinion and your position is incoherent and questionable:Muslims are not at all anti-semitic,it just fleis in face of logic and facts,Muslims would in that case hate the Prophet,if they were anti-semitic,just think about that;your priority is to condemn the racist militaristic apartheid jewish theocracy occupying Palestine especially Jerusalem and the Al Aqsa,which is only natural coming from the dispossesed Palestinians.

I yet have to hear you talk about oppressed Muslims in Palestine,Bosnia,Kosovo,Chechnya,Kashmir etc...you are making an issue where there is none,the issue is the jewish invasion and occupation of all of historic Arab Palestine.

It's ironic that a Muslim adopts the same interpretation of the concept of antisemetism as the zionists do, the same way they monopolized the concept of Holocaust as being a slaugghter of Jews ignoring the millions of others who underwent the same fate by the same hands in the same camps. I am a muslim and a semetic, and surely antisemetism dosn't refer to the feelings against me.

I think that most of the individuals posting comments on this board have completely missed the author's point.

I keep reading about Israeli/Palestinian issues and about geography. What the author is pointing out needs to be clarified. In the middle east, children are brain washed at an early age to believe jews are evil and that jewish lives are worth less than animals and in in some instances they are told that jews are the devil and will drink the blood of children. Have any of you watched Palestinian television?

This sort of education has created an entire generation that doesn't respect human life and it is clearly illustrated by suicide and homicide bombings.

Regardles of your believes regarding the land issues created in 1948, respect for all human life needs to be preached regardless of religion.

I'm Jewish, but admit we created all that mess in the world and brought it against ourselves.

We even hate Christians and Muslims for no reason. It's part of our Talmud and old teachings in the Torah. You are all evil to the us.

Anti-Semitism is not limited to Islam as a religion. History, past and present, is replete with instances of anti-Semitic utterances and acts perpetrated by Christians and practitioners of other religions, as well as people who belong to or practice no religion at all. Those who are familiar with history will note that Muslims and Jews did not only live together in peace and harmony hundreds of years ago but were victims of many Christian Crusades, starting with the first one ordered by Pope Urban II in a speech he gave on November 27, 1095. It must also be noted that the people who killed millions of Jews in Europe during War World II were not Muslims, not by a very long shot.

The tensions and hatred that we see today between Muslims and Jews stem almost exclusively from the tensions that have existed for more than 50 years between Israel and its Arab neighbors. Those tensions emanate from the illegal occupation of Palestinian and Arab lands by the sovereign State of Israel and its horrific treatment of the Palestinians in the occupied territories. One can only pray to God Almighty that one day (soon) all sides to the Middle East conflict will see reason to make peace and live with one another in harmony.

"Muslim antisemitism ...is a violation of the ethos of Islam and of what it means to be fully human."

No, actually, Muslim antisemitism is at the core of Islam:

HADITH Sahih Bukhari [4:52:177]:
Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

Islam teaches that nonbelievers - not only Jews - have three choices in life: 1) convert to Islam, 2) pay a special tax and acknowledge their own social inferiority, or 3) be killed.

Islam isn't only anti-semitic. It is also anti-christian, anti-buddhist, anti-atheist, anti-pagan, anti-anything-that-isn't-muslim.

Here are some more examples of muslim tolerance for other religions:

KORAN [3.28] Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully...

KORAN [4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

KORAN [9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

KORAN [9.30] And the Jews say: Uzair [Ezra] is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!

Note these last passages are from the Koran. The Koran is not like the Bible, which Christians believe to be INSPIRED by God, written by fallible men. Muslims believe the Koran is LITERALLY the word of God, and is therefore perfect, incapable of error. So when the Koran tells a Muslim not to take unbelievers for friends, it means exactly that. If you're not a Muslim, you might want to ask your local imam what 4.89 means.

I think that anti-Semitism among Muslims and non-Muslims for the most part is not racial; it is a response to the illegal and immoral Israeli occupation of Palestine.

There will be no peace in the Middle East, or the world, until this grievous crime is addressed.

If only the majority view of U.S. Muslims were the majority view of Muslims around the world! Clearly, though, it is not. One recent example: Where is the world-wide Muslim outrage at the treatment of the South Korean Christians in Afghanistan? The excuse is always given, "Well, they were missionaries, so it was OK." Another recent example: The man in Egypt who wants to officially change his religion from Muslim to Christian. Not only will the Egyptian government not allow this, but they are prosecuting him for even making the request. Why? Because in Egypt it is ILLEGAL for a Muslim to change his religion (although people can convert to Islam, no problem).

I will not say that Islam is therefore evil, or that it can never change. After all, the Catholic and Orthodox churches were like this, a few hundred years ago. But we should not kid ourselves about the (worldwide) Muslim mindset. Most of them probably view Mr. Patel as a hopeless liberal.

Muslin antisemitism, to the extent that it exists other than as a shorthand reference to opposition to Israel's genocidal policies against Muslims, is understandable in light of the bigotry against Islam prevalent in the West, a bigotry that to a large degree stems from jewish hatred against non-jews. Muslim antisemitism is a drop in the ocean compared to anti-Muslim sentiment among jews.

Thank you, Eboo. What you're doing makes a difference.
-Nitin

Brother Patel does a good job of walking his talk. chicago has a strong community of interfaith acitvity- imam malik may just be the best islamic speaker ive ever heard-
right now there are mosques that are inviting jewish people from synagogues and christian people from churches to cme and break bread with them, (mosques have communal dinners every night during the 30 days of ramadan)
there is iman and sanad in the southside both feeding and educating their communities which are predominantly non-muslim.
i recommend anyone here who doesnt know any muslims or has little contact with them to find your local mosque, and go there at sundown and break bread with your muslim neighbors.

there are more muslims that are mild, and kind-
but they are quiet wheels, not squeaking loudly and getting the oil of media attention.

we desparately need more brother patels and hamza yusufs and imam mujahids.

to increase our collective humanity.
peace

.

USAMA

Terrorism is defined in the modern sense as violence or other harmful acts committed (or threatened) against civilians for political or other ideological goals.

Prophet Muhammad was among the most commited terrorists in all of history. Read the following about the murder of Asma bint Marwan.

Asmā bint Marwān (Arabic: عصماء بنت مروان, namely "'Asmā the daughter of Marwān") was a female poet who lived in Hijaz in medieval Arabia.

According to a story that first appeared in Ibn Ishaq's "Sirah Rasul Allah" or the Biography of the Prophet of God, she was killed on the orders of the Islamic prophet Muhammad for composing poetry that satirized him. In Islamic theology, the Sirah is the third source of Islamic law after the Qur'an and Hadith, and is largely trusted as historically accurate.

Poetry was the usual medium of political discourse in medieval Arabia. According to the story Asma wrote a politically charged poem against Muhammad and his army. Upon hearing the poem, Muhammad ordered her execution. The assassin is said to have killed Asma with knives while she was sleeping alongside her children.

Her fate was similar to that of Abu 'Afak and Ka'b ibn al-Ashraf, also executed on Muhammad's orders.

An excerpt from Alfred Guillaume's translation of Ibn Ishaq's Sira follows:

"She was of Banu Umayya bin Zayd. When Abu Afak had been killed she displayed disaffection. Abdullah bin al-Harith bin Al-Fudayl from his father said that she was married to a man of Banu Khatma called Yazid bin Zayd. Blaming Islam and its followers she said:

"I despise Banu Malik and al-Nabit
and Auf and Banu al-Khazraj.
You obey a stranger who is none of yours,
One not of Murad or Madhhij. {1}
Do you expect good from him after the killing of your chiefs
Like a hungry man waiting for a cook's broth?
Is there no man of pride who would attack him by
And cut off the hopes of those who expect aught from him?"

Hassan bin Thabit answered her:

"Banu Wa'il and Banu Waqif and Banu Khatma
Are inferior to Banu al-Khazraj.
When she called for folly woe to her in her weeping,
For death is coming.
She stirred up a man of glorious origin,
Noble in his going out and in his coming in.
Before midnight he dyed her in her blood
And incurred no guilt thereby."

When the apostle heard what she had said he said, "Who will rid me of Marwan's daughter?" Umayr bin Adiy al-Khatmi who was with him heard him, and that very night he went to her house and killed her. In the morning he came to the apostle and told him what he had done and he [Muhammad] said, "You have helped God and His apostle, O Umayr!" When he asked if he would have to bear any evil consequences the apostle said, "Two goats won't butt their heads about her", so Umayr went back to his people.

Now there was a great commotion among Banu Khatma that day about the affair of bint [daughter of] Marwan. She had five sons, and when Umayr went to them from the apostle he said, "I have killed bint Marwan, o sons of Khatma. Withstand me if you can; don't keep me waiting." That was the first day Islam became powerful among Banu Khatma; before that those who were Muslims concealed the fact. The first of them to accept Islam was Umayr bin Adiy who was called the "Reader", and Abdullah bin Aus and Khuzayma bin Thabit. The day after Bint Marwan was killed the men of Banu Khatma became Muslims because they feared for their lives."

USAMA

Did you forget about the three million Hindus killed by Muslims in Bangladesh?

Usama

Did you hear about the 3 million Hindus killed by Muslims in Bangladesh? They were imitating your prophet who killed thousands of Jews in Arabia and then stole their land.

Eboo is a wishful thinker as are all Muslim.

Thank you for this article.

IDA: Let me add that I am Muslim who had Jewish advisers and many Jewish colleagues. Our friendship is profoundly sincere, even when we disagree on political issues. While we may not be able to agree on everything (and who does?), we always have and will maintain a level of mutual respect and sincere interactions.

Joe; regarding the Iranian TV program...be careful about relying on an outfit like MEMRI for information about the Middle East. They have their own agenda...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East_Media_Research_Institute#Criticism

http://www.juancole.com/2004/11/intimidation-by-israeli-linked.html

Wonderful message from Dr. Patel. But it s hard to find these postive examples in the press. Probably because it the old "if it bleeds , it leads" takes over. Fortunately, those of us who interact with Musliims every day, at work, at school, in the neighborhood, find a profound lack of antisemitism day by day.

Mr. Patel

It was your prophet Muhammad who laid the foundations of anti-semitism. An example was his masscare of the Jews of the Banu Quraiza tribe.

Soon after the Battle of the Trench was over, Muhammad claimed that the Archangel Gabriel had visited him "asking that he should unsheathe his sword and head for the habitation of the seditious Banu Quraiza and fight them. Gabriel noted that he with a procession of angels would go ahead to shake their forts and cast fear in their hearts." (2) Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 59, Number 443

It is not clear why the Archangel needed Muslim's help to wipe out the Jews if he had "a procession of angels" who would shake their forts.
Nevertheless, "the Messenger of Allâh immediately summoned the prayer caller and ordered him to announce fresh hostilities against Banu Quraiza,"

Muhammad headed an army of three thousand infantry men and thirty horsemen of Ansar (Helpers) and Muhajireen (Emigrants).

The Banu Quraiza was attacked for not supporting Muhammad when the Quraish attacked Medina. Ali sworn that he would never stop until he either storms their garrisons or be killed. This siege lasted 25 days. Finally the Banu Qurayza surrendered unconditionally. Muhammad ordered that the men be handcuffed, while the women and children were isolated in confinement. Thereupon Al-Aws tribe interceded begging the Prophet to be lenient towards them. Muhammad suggested that Sa‘d bin Mu‘adh, a former ally, be deputed to give verdict about them, and they agreed.

Sa'd's verdict who had received as a serious wound in the previous Battle of the Confederates was "that all the able-bodied male persons belonging to the tribe should be killed, women and children taken prisoners and their wealth divided among the Muslim fighters." Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 280

One wonders why Muhammad who claimed to be the messenger of Allah and in contact with him needed the judgment of a human. Yet this most cruel verdict was precisely what pleased him and he "accepted his judgment saying that Sa‘d had adjudged by the Command of Allâh."

Al-Bubarapouri adds that "In fact, the Jews deserved that severe punitive action for the ugly treachery they had harbored against Islam, and the large arsenal they have amassed and which consisted of one thousand and five hundred swords, two thousand spears, three hundred armours and five hundred shields, all of which went into the hands of the Muslims." (4)

The Muslims historians have been quick to bring the same baseless alibis to justify their raids against their victims like, they were "mischievous", causing "sedition" or being "treacherous" and "harboring against Islam". However no specifics exists as of the nature of those sins to warrant such a sever punishment and their total genocide.

Trenches were dug in the bazaar of Madinah and a number of Jews between six and nine hundred Jewish males were beheaded therein.

Huyai, Ibn Akhtab, the chief of the Bani Nadeer and Safiyah’s father was captured in this siege and brought to the Prophet with his hands tied to his neck with a rope. In an audacious defiance he rejected Muhammad and preferred to be beheaded than submitting to his Religion by force. He was ordered to sit down and was beheaded on the spot.

To separate men from the boys, the youngsters were examined and if they had grown any pubic hair, it was enough to behead them.

Now we all know that many boys have pubic hair at the age of 9. Muhammad did not even spare children.

Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 38, Number 4390

Narrated Atiyyah al-Qurazi:
I was among the captives of Banu Qurayzah. They (the Companions) examined us, and those who had begun to grow hair (pubes) were killed, and those who had not were not killed. I was among those who had not grown hair.

I am a Muslim and I second Mr. Patel's opinion. Muslims can and ought to do much better. If nothing else, Islam says so, too.

Michael D. Houst:

Well done, thank you. The world needs more people like you and like those scouts.

Theodor Herzl once thought that Jewish conversion to Catholicism might be the answer to anti-semitism. But seriously, Jewish conversion to Islam -- a religion not unlike Judaism -- no Trinity, no divine Jesus -- would not be a bad way to end the hostility between Muslims and Jews.

I said a "political conflict between two religious communities," not a religious conflict. Unclear where Yom Kippur and the Torah fit in to your historical analysis. Guess it's not only "on the Muslim side" that this is all about religion!

Anyway, what should I speak as--a Presbyterian? You're just reinforcing my point, though, so I won't complain.

I spent a week with 500+ Scouts, camp staff, and counselors last month on the edge of the White Mountains of New Hampshire.

The first night there, we held an all faiths religous ceremony.

B'hai, Buddist, Catholic, Christian, Confucian, Jewish, Islam, Native American, Wiccan and nearly a dozen other faiths were included; and an invitation was issued for anyone who wasn't represented to come forward to offer a prayer from their faith also.

These were young men and women who are learning not only tolerance and respect for the beleifs of others; but actually trying to incorporate the good parts of all of them into their own lives.

Maybe I can't solve the problem of hatred around the world. But I sure can try to be an example for each boy or girl I meet. The only thing we should never tolerate is intolerance itself.

The thoughtful article by Mr. Patel is tarnished by some of the comments.

For example, there is a comment by an R. Merrill based on an empty claim: that Jews are not semites. I ask that R. Merrill and those who think this way consult a friend who is a geneticist. DNA demonstrates that Jews are semites.

How did the returning Jews get to Europe? It started with the destruction of the State of Israel in 70 A.D. by the Romans. The epithet, Wandering Jew, starts from that date.

Best regards.

BTW, there is enormous amount of prejudice AND terroristic talk and action by Hindus and Jews against innocent Muslims.
The Israeli settlers in cities like Hebron/Khalil are effectively terrorists, using violence and the threat of violence against civilians for political purposes. Yet they recieve $$$ from the Israeli and American govt.
The Israeli govt routinely practices state terrorism against the people of Palestine by destroying the homes of terrorist suspects.

The RSS is a terrorist group by definition: a group and/or militia using violence and the threat of violence against civilians for political purposes. The RSS is protected by the BJP and the Sangh Parivar from criminalization. The RSS has fomented riots and massacres in India for over 15 years now and yet Hindutva politicans have blocked their prosecution. India is controlled by ritewing Hindutva free market capitalists. And who loves free market capitalists in India but America and American businesses? The RSS has been the strong arm of the Sangh Parivar and Hindutva movement, enabling the BJP and VHP to push through economic reforms which have favored the rich and American firms while scapegoating Muslims. Thus, silence from India and America. Ritewing Hindus are the most silent in the face of actual terrorism and hatred against helpless people.
Today, Hindutva led India and Israel now have a military alliances against Muslim nations.

"Anti semitism" amd racism is anathematic to Islam. One of the Prophet's (saaw) wives was Jewish in ethnicity as were several of the close companions of the Prophet (saaw).
The revival of Islam in the Muslim world is the greatest power to end racism amongst Muslims ruled by secular regimes.
In fact, the secular Arab nationalist governments of the Muslim world, have been the biggest proponents of hatred towards Jews.

This is for all the Muslims here who are complaining about Jews ( a small state with 30% Muslim population with equal rights).

Latest News (NYT-9/17)about peace and compassion of Islam:

A $100,000 reward for killing of a Swedish cartoonist for "insulting" Islam. Extra $50,000 if the cartoonist is slaughtered like a lamb (i.e, a slow cutting of throat).

Also $50,000 for killing of the editor who published the cartoons.

What a peaceful and compassionate culture, these Muslims!! And they say they are being misunderstood!!!

BBC Today- Women in Saudi Arabia to request Saudi rulers to let them drive cars (this is the birth place of Islam (Bibles are confiscated at the airport- forget about idol worshipping)).

CNN (Afghanistan)- A middle school girl said she has to hide her text books from her father because he would not let her study.

To Mr. Merril: YOU ARE AN ANTI SEMITE!
To Aaron below: What is wrong with you?

Since when are Jews not Semites, and however liberal you are, since when has Israel been genocidal? Genocide is a big word. It means the destruction of, or the attempted destruction of, an entire people. An example would be most Native American tribes or what happened to the Jews in the lands controlled by Nazi Germany. I won't get into how grotesquely offensive you are being when you refer to Jews as Nazis. I will simply point out that with the Palestinian population booming and the stregnth of the Israeli military being what it is, there is prima facia no genocide. Like I said, genocide is a very big word and it should not be used by frothing idiots like you.

Further, when was there a time in history when Jews weren't living in Israel? Finally, sort of the whole point of those Polish, Russian and what have you, Jews fleeing from Europe was because they were not considered as members of those nations, but rather Semites. No one was colonizing anything. People returned to their legitimate homeland.

Your lies do not help anything.

To Aaron, do you really think that this is a "legitimate religious conflict?" Perhaps it is religious on the Muslim side, but the reality has much, much more to do with nationalism and the the aftermath of Britain followed by the Cold War. Have you ever opened a Torah in your life? Do you really think that even the most right wing religious Jews are coming from the same place as a group like Hamas? Have you seen a Jew cut someone's head off on video, intentionally launch rockets for months *at civilian targets* or do a suicide bombing? Do Jewish schools have an equivalent of Farfur Mouse? Does the constitution of Israel call for the anilation of all Arabs like the Hamas charter calls for the death of all Jews?

Please, do not speak "as a Jew." It is the Days of Awe. Take the time to feel some shame at being so very ignorant.

So you want Muslims in America to tell Muslims in Palestine and the rest of the world to stop hating Jews? Okay. What about Jewish treatment of Muslims in: the press, TV, movies, in Palestine, in Lebanon, Israeli talk of bombing Iran, and on and on. How is that reconciled? Israel has supported terrorists groups around the world, like the SPLA, UNITA, Kurdish PKK via rebel groups, Tamil Tigers, as well as the RSS in India- many groups which have waged war on and terrorized Muslims. How is that reconciled?

Of course no one would disagree that prejudice is a bad thing and ought to be condemned. But I have to say that these pious declarations seem kind of sad. For one thing, I can say with utter certainty as a Jewish person that you're never going to get an organized campaign to root out anti-Muslim prejudice in the Jewish community, where it is equally widespread. The history of anti-Muslim rhetoric is so long that people simply don't feel embarassed about it. It feels like reality to them (like all prejudice).

When the issue gets framed as "Muslim anti-semitism" rather than a genuine political conflict between two religious communities I think the opportunity for a genuine teaching moment is lost. Added to the fact that pronouncements against "Muslim anti-semitism" are almost always defensive, either in the original expression or in the way they're promoted, attempts to fend off prejudice from mainstream American society, and you have to feel as if they're not going to get anybody anywhere.

You've got it all wrong. The Jews who are the subject of Muslim outrage are not "semites"; they are Europeans -- Germans, French, Poles, Russians, etc. who have come to Arab lands as colonizers. The Arabs and Palestinians are "semites." It is one thing to hate someone because of their race or religion -- that is unacceptable and vile. But it is quite legitimate to be outraged and filled with anger against those who are committing ethnic cleansing and genocide as the Israeli government is in the name of all Jews. Of course, most Jews in the world do not support the ethnic cleansing policies of the Israeli government, but nonetheless that government claims to represent all Jews and to be acting in their behalf. It is important for us not to be anti-Jewish and also not to allow our criticism and outrage at the Israeli government to be mistakenly called anti-Jewish or anti-semitic. I'm afraid you are doing the work of the criminal and genocidal -- even nazi -- Israeli government in your sloppy use of the term anti-semitic and your failure to make clear that there is legitimate anger at the destruction of Palestinians.

Alas the Iranian Holocaust documentary is *absolutely nothing* like the Post article on it would lead you to believe. The premise of the documentary is that Zionist Jews worked with Hitler to eliminate Jews who did not want to go to Israel - and that they murdered the chief Rabbi in Iran for opposing Zionism. For a translation of this completely evil bit of antisemitic propaganda please see:

http://memritv.org/

There are also articles about this monstrosity
(as what it is) in the German press.

What shocks me about this is how the Post could get it's facts so very, very wrong. Another part in combating Muslim AntiSemitism is for American liberals to face the dark reality of it's existence.

Even in Iran there is hope...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/16/AR2007091601363.html

" It is Iran's version of "Schindler's List," a miniseries about an Iranian diplomat in Paris who helps Jews escape the Holocaust -- and viewers across the country are riveted...

...The show may reflect an attempt by Iran's leadership to moderate its image as anti-Semitic and to underline a distinction that Iranian officials often make -- that their conflict is with Israel, not with the Jewish people."

Bless you for writing this. I was deeply moved by the message you sent.

My question though is, who are considered the leaders of Islam and are moderate American Muslim voices a real voice in the greater Muslim world? What of charters that call for the death of all Jews? What of childrens' shows with evil Mickey and a Killer Bee? What of Imam after Imam from the Mideast praising the deaths of Jews and demanding more? Finally what of the various Muslim heads of state whose pronouncements are much less than peacable?

How can this American community affect all of that - and what are they doing to affect it?