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I've lived in the united states for about 11 years now and I was born in Bosnia, in a muslim family. There was never one SINGLE problem, or discrimination I've faced for being muslim while in America, nor have i heard within my community how we should hate and discriminate people of other religions. It seems to me that every time islam is concerned we hear something about the middle east and these radicals who blow themselves up to destroy others in the name of God. Many people paint an evil picture of Islam. In my mosque I never hear how we must spread islam because god wills it. instead the imam advises us to spread peace with everyone, and educate people about islam if they are willing to listen. I'm not told I should create my own state within america. The imam only preaches about peace as did the imam before him.

sadly mr ellis i watched george bush at the UN today saying the exact opposite, with his new across the pond puppy nicholas sarkozy goose-stepping right in line.

in keeping with your comments i saw a most remarkable documentary the other day called "the other zionists".

it's about the Machsom Watch (checkpoint watch) and is a group of 500 israeli women who regularly show up at the palestinian checkpoints into israel and watch and film.

they call themselves zionists, but are passionately opposed to the treatment of palestinians by the israeli government.

they are also members of WOMEN IN BLACK

at one point in the film, a slathering israeli man viciously attacked them for not being israelis-

a woman passing by heard this, and informed him that her family has been in israel for 6 generations, and these women were right.

http://www.documentarychannel.com/main/index_new.php

this is the link at the bottom of the screen, but i had a hard time accessing info about that particular show

as the maerican media is foaming at the mouth to find a reason to go to war with iran, and israel just bombed a nuclear facitlity in Syria on sept.6th in the middl;e of the night-
these are the important questions we need to be asking right now.

i personally have allowed myself to be silenced for many years when rebutted with the old "antisemitc" accusation-

but it no longer is sufficient enough to make me stop thinking.

So, how do you propose we speak up against the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, Palestinians, Lebanese (and perhaps Syrians and Iranians, soon) not to mention our own, if we don't speak out against the Zionists? Is being anti-Nazi in 1934 the same as anti-Aryan or anti-German?

Like it or not, America HAS BEEN DIRECTLY INVOLVED in the atrocities in the Middle East, for most of Israel's lifetime. (since Britain started the mess in 1917, we can't take much heat for that...)

The only way this can end without WWIII is to tell Israel, in no uncertain terms, that we won't support it's racist totalitarian nationalist debauchery any longer.

tim, you actually believe what you wrote?

you really think muslims just recently showed up on american shores and need to assimilate?

no tim, muslims have been here in numbers since the beginning of the last century (about the same time jewish people showed up in numbers)

it is just your limited consciousness that you wrongly think muslims just showed up when you noticed their presence

amazing!

mae- count me in!

The way so many intellectual people are deliberately driven and deceived by a bunch of religious donkeys makes me strongly believe that those donkeys hide among themselves an arcane top-secret. -Flavioos

Dr. Patel , Don is wong, I want to hold hands with you and sing Kum Ba Ya or Enei ma a tov, That is, if you hold hands with women. If not, that's fine tooo. We can just sing.

I find it peculiar that each post is followed by the Post's directive "report offensive comments".

It is always the same, after a wonderfufl effort to begin a reasoned dialog, there are 9 offensive comments for every sane one. And often, they are the same comments posted the day before. What a shame.

Latest News (NYT-9/17)about peace and compassion of Islam:

A $100,000 reward for killing of a Swedish cartoonist for "insulting" Islam. Extra $50,000 if the cartoonist is slaughtered like a lamb (i.e, a slow cutting of throat).

Also $50,000 for killing of the editor who published the cartoons.

What a peaceful and compassionate culture, these Muslims!! And they say they are being misunderstood!!!

So why did Muhammad choose Sa`d bin Mu`adh to pass judgement. Because he knew about the man's disposition towards Jews. Jews were pronounced guilty without evidence.

Let us see what really happened.

After a siege of 25 days, the Banu Qurayza surrendered to Muhammad unconditionally. Some members of al-Aus interceded with Muhammad on their behalf, and he asked them if they would accept the judgment of one of their own tribe. They agreed, and Muhammad then appointed Sa`d bin Mu`adh. In order to understand the significance of this appointment, we need to understand the character of this man, his former encounters with the Banu Qurayza and his attitude to the Jews in general.

We will present source material as found in the Sirat Rasul Allah by Ibn Ishaq, edited by Ibn Hisham, in the translation by A. Guillaume, as well as narrations from Sahih al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim.

In the Sirat, p. 301, we read that at the Battle of Badr:

The foe was routed. God slew many of their chiefs and made captive many of their nobles. Meanwhile the apostle was in the hut and Sa`d b. Mu`adh was standing at the door of the hut girt with his sword. With him were some of the Ansar guarding the apostle for fear lest the enemy should come back at him. While the folk were laying hands on the prisoners the apostle, as I have been told, saw displeasure on the face of Sa`d at what they were doing. He said to him, "You seem to dislike what the people were doing." "Yes, by God," he replied, "it is the first defeat that God has brought on the infidel and I would rather see them slaughtered than left alive."

The fact that Sa`d b. Mu`adh was Muhammad's personal body guard indicates that he was quite close to Muhammad and Muhammad would have known Sa`d probably better than many others among his companions. This special closeness is confirmed in further sources presented below.

Sa`d's reply to Muhammad's question states it very strongly that he is not a friend of making prisoners of those who do not believe in Muhammad but would rather see them killed.

Would it be wrong to see this as an indication of what Muhammad could expect when appointing Sa`d as judge over the Banu Qurayza? Muhammad himself had asked him at that time and received this reply. He was well aware of general disposition of Sa`d.

The massacre of the Jews was inevitable.

The verse 33:26 in the Koran confirms that Muhammad did slew all the males of Bani Quraiza tribe.

But the verse does not talk about the details of that slaughter. The details of this event can be found in the hadith such as these:

Volume 5, Book 59, Number 448:
Narrated 'Aisha:

When the Prophet returned from the (battle) of Al-Khandaq (i.e. Trench) and laid down his arms and took a bath Gabriel came to him while he (i.e. Gabriel) was shaking the dust off his head, and said, "You have laid down the arms?" By Allah, I have not laid them down. Go out to them (to attack them)." The Prophet said, "Where?" Gabriel pointed towards Bani Quraiza. So Allah's Apostle went to them (i.e. Banu Quraiza) (i.e. besieged them). They then surrendered to the Prophet's judgment but he directed them to Sad to give his verdict concerning them. Sad said, "I give my judgment that their warriors should be killed, their women and children should be taken as captives, and their properties distributed."

Volume 8, Book 74, Number 278:
Narrated Abu Said:

The people of (the tribe of) Quraiza agreed upon to accept the verdict of Sa'd. The Prophet sent for him (Sa'd) and he came. The Prophet said (to those people), "Get up for your chief or the best among you!" Sa'd sat beside the Prophet and the Prophet said (to him), "These people have agreed to accept your verdict." Sa'd said, "So I give my judgment that their warriors should be killed and their women and children should be taken as captives." The Prophet said, "You have judged according to the King's (Allah's) judgment." (See Hadith No. 447, Vol. 5)

Comment:Since we know that the story is true and there is only one version of that repeated in several hadithes it is unreasonable to believe that the real version is not reported and somehow mysteriously they were replaced by forged versions.

The following is the story of Banu Quraiza and is based on Islamic sources.

INVADING BANU QURAIZA:
Soon after the Battle of the Trench was over, Muhammad claimed that the Archangel Gabriel had visited him "asking that he should unsheathe his sword and head for the habitation of the seditious Banu Quraiza and fight them. Gabriel noted that he with a procession of angels would go ahead to shake their forts and cast fear in their hearts." Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 59, Number 443

It is not clear why the Archangel needed Muslim's help to wipe out the Jews if he had "a procession of angels" who would shake their forts. Nevertheless, "the Messenger of Allh immediately summoned the prayer caller and ordered him to announce fresh hostilities against Banu Quraiza.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 280

Muhammad headed an army of three thousand infantry men and thirty horsemen of Ansar (Helpers) and Muhajireen (Emigrants). The Banu Quraiza was attacked for not supporting Muhammad when the Quraish attacked Medina. Ali swore that he would never stop until he either storms their garrisons or be killed. This siege lasted 25 days.

Finally the Banu Qurayza Jews surrendered unconditionally. Muhammad ordered that the men be handcuffed, while the women and children were isolated in confinement. Thereupon Al-Aws tribe interceded begging the Prophet to be lenient towards them. Muhammad suggested that Sa'd bin Mu'adh, a former ally, be deputed to give verdict about them, and they agreed. Sa'd's verdict who had received as a serious wound in the previous Battle of the Confederates was "that all the able-bodied male persons belonging to the tribe should be killed, women and children taken prisoners and their wealth divided among the Muslim fighters.

One wonders why Muhammad who claimed to be the messenger of Allah and in contact with him needed the judgment of a human. Yet this most cruel verdict was precisely what pleased him and he "accepted his judgment saying that Sa'd had adjudged by the Command of Allh."

Al-Bubarapouri adds that "In fact, the Jews deserved that severe punitive action for the ugly treachery they had harbored against Islam, and the large arsenal they have amassed and which consisted of one thousand and five hundred swords, two thousand spears, three hundred armours and five hundred shields, all of which went into the hands of the Muslims."

The Muslims historians have been quick to bring the same baseless alibis to justify their raids against their victims like, they were "mischievous", causing "sedition" or being "treacherous" and "harboring against Islam". However no specifics exists as of the nature of those sins to warrant such a sever punishment and their total genocide.

Trenches were dug in the bazaar of Madinah and a number of Jews between six and nine hundred were beheaded therein. Huyai, Ibn Akhtab, the chief of the Bani Nadeer and Safiyah's father was captured in this siege and brought to the Prophet with his hands tied to his neck with a rope. In an audacious defiance he rejected Muhammad and preferred to be beheaded than submitting to his Religion by force. He was ordered to sit down and was beheaded on the spot. Muhammad also murdered Saffiyya's husband and then took the 15 year old Saffiya to bed the same night.

To separate men from the boys, the youngsters were examined and if they had grown any pubic hair, it was enough to behead them.

Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 38, Number 4390
Narrated Atiyyah al-Qurazi:
I was among the captives of Banu Qurayzah. They (the Companions) examined us, and those who had begun to grow hair (pubes) were killed, and those who had not were not killed. I was among those who had not grown hair.

If anyone cannot see that this is NOT how a messenger of God should behave cannot claim to have grasped the meaning of humanness. I believe the cruelty of what the Prophet did to the Jews of Arabia are self-explanatory and any fair-minded person would acknowledge that. It is inconceivable that a messenger of God could kill between 600 to 900 people and banish thousands more with no feelings or compassion. The man we call the Prophet, was full of hate. He thought of nothing but killing, brought nothing but death, taught nothing but vengeance. Muhammad was not a "mercy of God to mankind" but the curse of devil to humanity. Not only in his life he killed and banished all the Jews he could lay hand on, in his dead bed he instructed his followers to continue with the ethnic cleansing that he had initiated.

Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 288
The Prophet on his death-bed, gave three orders one of them was to Expel the pagans from the Arabian Peninsula.

Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 176
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:
Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.' " This man was a hoodlum not a messenger of God, he was a thief, a gangster and a highway robber. He enriched himself with the wealth of his victims.

Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 176
Narrated Anas bin Malik:
People used to give some of their datepalms to the Prophet (as a gift), till he conquered Bani Quraiza and Bani An-Nadir, whereupon he started returning their favors.

If you still believe that Muhammad was a messenger of God. Think to yourself what has happened to your humanity.

Asim,

Once again here is your chance to cleanse Islam:

Rob,

Part 1 of the "cleansing".

"The 77 Branches of Faith is a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true faith (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings."( i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.)

"30 qualities are connected to the heart"
(five at a time)

"1. Belief in Allah"

Suggestion: No problem but "aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc." should be added.

"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."

Suggestion: No problem but evolution and the Big Bang cannot be ignored and the "akas" for Allah should be included.

"3. To believe in the existence of angels."

Suggestion: A major item to delete. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ugly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented.

"4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."

Suggestion: Another major item to delete. There are no books written in spirit states aka Heaven just as there are no angels to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.

Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the uneducated masses in line. Today we call them fortune tellers.

Prophecies are also invalidated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.

"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone."

Suggestion: Mohammed spent thirty days fasting (apparently it was "Ramadan like" with his wives feeding him during the evening) in a desert cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic violence i.e. turning Mohammed's hallucinations/fictional accounts into horrible reality for unbelievers.

Asim

Muslims need to

1) Return half of Saudi Arabia to the Jews. Muhammad stole it from the Jews.
2) Allow free worship in all Muslim lands and that includes building of churches and other places of non-Muslim worship.

3) They must reject Muhammad and stop insulting God by calling Muhammad a prophet of God. How can a man who used to stone people be a prophet of God?

Please visit this University of Souther California link for translations of Imam Malik's Muwatta.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muwatta/

Here is a informative sample.

Book 41, Number 41.1.5:

Malik related to me from Yaqub ibn Zayd ibn Talha from his father Zayd ibn Talha that Abdullah ibn Abi Mulayka informed him that a woman came to the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, and informed him that she had committed adultery and was pregnant.

The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said to her, "Go away until you give birth."

When she had given birth, she came to him. The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said to her, "Go away until you have suckled and weaned the baby."

When she had weaned the baby, she came to him. He said, "Go and entrust the baby to someone."

She entrusted the baby to someone and then came to him. He gave the order and she was stoned.

ASIM, spoken like a true Islamic. Congratulations, and thank you for proving the Greek doctors prophesy once again.

We are nice people here in America who want to think the best of everyone. Like Britain, France and the rest of the West we have our secular societies and we like it that way. We would be neglectful if we did not consider historical evidence, current actions, and the rhetoric of people like you. We would be complacent if we did not consider the lack of freedoms in every Muslim nation around the world. This is what Islam produces: Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan and all the other Stans. I don't know where you live, Asim, but if you live in America consider yourself lucky and help us promote America's secular government as the model for the rest of the world. Will you join me in demanding that Mecca be opened to all religions and become a pluralistic city, like all the great cities in the West?

Asim, you need to help straiten things out in Iran and Mecca before blowing up about Israel, the USA or any other country.

Are you one of those guys who wants to re-establish the glory years of Islam: the Caliphate? That's just plain obsolete government for today's world. The Sharia is not for the modern world and neither is the culture promoted by your sacred Hadith. And the Quran only works if you take a mystical approach to interpretation, like your great scholar al-Harith al-Muhasibi promoted. Unfortunately, only a small minority follow the teachings of people like al-Harith. Let's face it most of you guys follow Sayyid Qutb and are either into the literal interpretation of the Quran and hold to the beliefs like that of the fundamentalist Wahhabi who control Saudi Arabia. Are you a Wahhabi Asim?

Asim. In America and for Americans: this is an ideological problem. It has nothing to do with your personal hatreds.

Tim,
So you heared the story from a Greek couple-how about hearing the same story from a Turkish couple next door?

I lived in Cyprus-the Greek part-for 3 years and never heared such non-sense as you describe.Why this cheap warmonging and hate against Islam and Muslims when they are the victims evry where:in Palestine under a arcist apartheid jewish theocracy,genocide in Bosnia and Kosovo by the fasict Serbs,the same in Chechnya under brutal Russian occupation and in Kashmir under indian military occupation...and of course in Iraq where the whole war was launched on behalf of israel...

This cheap warmongring is counter productive to say the least-and we know how is promoting it.

Anonymous and Moderate,

America needs to cleanse it soul and institutions from AIPAC and jewish and israeli control-espcially congress where presently 43 members of congress are jewish-considering the minute size of the jewish community in the US vs one indigenous Muslim congressman only.

Consider the billions of dollars approved by congress in grants and weapons since 1948 from taxpayers money while Katarina's victims are left in the cold to this very day??

Consider American blood and treasure wasted on a hopless war on Iraq fought on behlaf of israel and jews:recall lover boy Wolfwaitz,Richard Pearl,Scooter Libby...the AIPAC gang etc

Israel is an absolute evil and brought nothing but evil to the entire ME region;US and Israeli national intersts are mutually exclusive:the US should distance itself from the racist apartheid jewish theocray-israel-as it is the prime cause formenting a confrontation between the America and the Muslim World.AIPAC/Israel are now agitating for another war on Iran:again will paid by American Blood and treasure.
America needs to wake up NOW.

Anon:

One of our presidential candidates will take a strong position on immigration: its happening in many western countries:

The Swiss People's Party (SVP) has sparked a nationwide controversy with a poster showing a black sheep being kicked out of the country by three grinning white sheep under the slogan "For More Security" - an allusion to the party's proposal to expel the families of foreign-born "juvenile criminals".

http://www.gulf-daily-news.com/Story.asp?Article=193935&Sn=WORL&IssueID=30179

Briefly,The Civilization will not adapt to islam(cult of violence),but,islam will adapt to Civilization.

Briefly,USA will not obey islam(bedouin cult based on stone age mentality),but,islam will obey to US Constitution and Human Rights.

Briefly,Humanity shall not go back to the Stone Age,but,islam shall come to twentyfirst century.

The last word.Fasting is *torture*,nothing else.

Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on

Wednesday to get out of Australia, as the government targeted radicals

in a bid to head off potential terror attacks.

A day after a group of mainstream Muslim leaders pledged loyalty to

Australia and her Queen at a special meeting with Prime Minister John

Howard, he and his Ministers made it clear that extremists would face

a crackdown. Treasurer Peter Costello, seen as heir apparent to

Howard, hinted that some radical clerics could be asked to leave the

country if they did not accept that Australia was a secular state, and

its laws were made by parliament. "If those are not your values, if

you want a country which has Sharia law or a theocratic state, then

Australia is not for you", he said on National Television. "I'd be

saying to clerics who are teaching that there are two laws governing

people in Australia: one the Australian law and another Islamic law

that is false. If you can't agree with parliamentary law, independent

courts, democracy, and would prefer Sharia law and have the

opportunity to go to another country, which practices it, perhaps,

then, that's a better option", Costello said.

Asked whether he meant radical clerics would be forced to leave, he

said those with dual citizenship could possibly be asked to move to

the other country. Education Minister Brendan Nelson later told

reporters that Muslims who did not want to accept local values should

"clear off". Basically people who don't want to be Australians, and

who don't want, to live by Australian values and understand them, well

then, they can basically clear off", he said.

Separately, Howard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by

saying he supported spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques.

Quote: "IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave it.

I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some

individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali, we

have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of

Australians."

"However, the dust from the attacks had barely settled when the

'politically correct' crowd began complaining about the possibility

that our patriotism was offending others. I am not against

immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a

better life by coming to Australia." "However, there are a few things

that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently some

born here, need to understand." "This idea of Australia being a

multi-cultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and

our national identity. And, as Australians, we have our own culture,

our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle." "This

culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials

and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom"

"We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese,

Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to

become part of our society. Learn the language!" "Most Australians

believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political

push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian

principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is

certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If

God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world

as your new home, because God is part of our culture."

"We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is

that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with

us."

"If the Southern Cross offends you, or you don't like "A Fair Go",

then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this

planet. We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change,

and we really don't care how you did things where you came from. By

all means, keep your culture, but do not force it on others. "This is

OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will

allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done

complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our

Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take

advantage of one other great Australian freedom, 'THE RIGHT TO

LEAVE'." "If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to

come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted."

Maybe if we circulate this amongst ourselves, Canadian and American

citizens will find the backbone to start speaking and voicing

the same truths !

Common sense tells us that religion is pure unadulterated mumbo jumbo where we put our brains on hold and try very hard to believe in magic,god,and everlasting life,like we are kids or something.It's organized insanity,and to prove it we got 9/11.
The question is,where is it all going to end?

Dear Anonymous:

"Many non-Mid-easterners feel they are essentially being colonized by conspicuous Mid-Eastern foreign wealth."

Yep. We are. If we had produced efficient cars (say by clean diesel engines like the EU uses) we would not be importing oil, fueling terror, and selling our country out, tank full by tank full to the MIddle East. An Audi executive recently commented that if the US had as much peneration by (100 year old) diesel engine technology as the EU, the US would not be importing oil. Tell that to the fools in Dearborn.

Dear Anonymous:

"Many non-Mid-easterners feel they are essentially being colonized by conspicuous Mid-Eastern foreign wealth."

Yep. We are. If we had produced efficient cars (say by clean diesel engines like the EU uses) we would not be improting oil, fueling terror, and selling our country out, tank full by tank full to the MIddle East. An Audi executive recently commented that if the US had as much peneration by (100 year old) diesel engine technology as the EU, the US would not be importing oil. Tell that to the fools in Dearborn.

This was in a local citizen's comment at the end of the Detroit Free Press article:

"If the current trend in Mid-Eastern immigration continues both Dearborn and Dearborn Heights will have Muslim majorities in less than ten more years. I have lived in this area all of my life and have never witnessed such dramatic shifts in demographics. Many non-Mid-easterners feel they are essentially being colonized by conspicuous Mid-Eastern foreign wealth. Again, this might provide another reason why the mayor of Dearborn sat on this story until after 911. I'm sure he doesn't want to push any of that tax revenue away at a time when so many American workers are forced to leave the state due to Dearborn's Ford Motor Company moving all of it's jobs to Mexico and China.

Just consider that the prime minister and wife of the emir of Qatar recently donated $1.5 million towards a $5 million dollar American-Arab Center for Civil and Human Rights that just broke ground the other day in Dearborn. You can read the entire article here:

Supporters acknowledged at future site of rights center
By Tim Powers, Press & Guide Newspapers
PUBLISHED: September 16, 2007

http://www.pressandguide.com/stories/091607/loc_20070916005.shtml

This has been "news" to local Dearborn/Detroit media only:

Houssein Zorkot, a third-year medical student at Wayne State University in Michigan, was arrested on September 8 at Hemlock Park in Detroit. He was wearing camouflage makeup, black clothes, and carrying an AK-47 assault rifle; he reportedly had to be tasered by police when he was arrested. His website features photographs of the Ayatollah Khomeini and a great deal of pro-Hizballah material. Most ominously, on the day he was arrested he uploaded onto his site an image that included a photo of a soldier holding a rifle, with the caption, "The Start of My Personal Jihad (in the US)." Underneath in Arabic was Qur'an 9:20: "Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant." The Arabic for "striven…in Allah's way" is jahadoo fi sabil Allah, which in Islamic theology refers in particular to jihad as warfare.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070917/NEWS05/709170405/1001/NEWS

Some may think America is a myth- but our country is held up as the promise of what could be, it was founded on that myth. It's written into our founding documents. Even though we still fall short of that myth we've got to work for it. We've lost a whole lot of ground in the past 6 years because our actions don't come anywhere near what we say we stand for. There's so much WORK to do.. and it's going to take everyone.

This was a great article, Mr. Patel. Thanks.

Annonymous, do you live in a controlled enviornment or what? You site someone who obviously was never a born again Christian and somehow relate their disillusionment with religion as proof of something!? What? That they are not afraid to voice it? LOL. I have known alot of unbeievers in my long time on planet earth and stating unbelief has never been a problem with them. It only proves what Jesus said, "You MUST be born again." I have been disillusioned with life but NEVER Jesus.

Tim, I hear ya.

Mark Eaton, exactly. Cyprus was also split into Christian and Muslim areas. Islam does not co-exits peacefully with any religion. Where there is Islam not in a dominate role, there is violence.

I was in Greece in 1989 on a vacation. I met a Greek doctor and his wife. They told me this over dinner one night, "You Americans will learn about Muslims. You think you can co-exists with them. You can not. We Greeks have a long history with Islam as Turkey is just a few miles from us over the sea. Islam does not co-exists in a Christian nation. They want our freedoms and our way of life until they reach a significant part of the population. Then the Islamic cleric take control and they want you to become like them. If they become 50% of your population, then you either covert to Islam or you will be discriminated against."

I did not know what to think of this unsolicited comment over a causal dinner in Athens on a vacation in 1989. But now I understand. This man and his wife were prophesying - "you Americans will learn some day..." What they said has and is becoming true. We Americans are learning and the sooner the better. What the good doctor and his wife said is a historical fact. We are modern people and we may think things will be different this time around. Maybe they will but don't discount history, current events in France and Britain or the fact that when you get right down to it, not much really ever changes.

We changed because we accepted Jefferson's idea of freedom of religion. This is something the Islamic world has never dealt with. They don't get it and that is a big problem.

In Europe and U.S., Nonbelievers Are Increasingly Vocal

By Mary Jordan
Washington Post Foreign Service
Saturday, September 15, 2007; Page A01

BURGESS HILL, England -- Every morning on his walk to work, high school teacher Graham Wright recited a favorite Anglican prayer and asked God for strength in the day ahead. Then two years ago, he just stopped.

Wright, 59, said he was overwhelmed by a feeling that religion had become a negative influence in his life and the world. Although he once considered becoming an Anglican vicar, he suddenly found that religion represented nothing he believed in, from Muslim extremists blowing themselves up in God's name to Christians condemning gays, contraception and stem cell research.

"I stopped praying because I lost my faith," said Wright, 59, a thoughtful man with graying hair and clear blue eyes. "Now I truly loathe any sight or sound of religion. I blush at what I used to believe."

Wright is now an avowed atheist and part of a growing number of vocal nonbelievers in Europe and the United States. On both sides of the Atlantic, membership in once-quiet groups of nonbelievers is rising, and books attempting to debunk religion have been surprise bestsellers, including "The God Delusion," by Oxford University professor Richard Dawkins.

New groups of nonbelievers are sprouting on college campuses, anti-religious blogs are expanding across the Internet, and in general, more people are publicly saying they have no religious faith.

More than three out of four people in the world consider themselves religious, and those with no faith are a distinct minority. But especially in richer nations, and nowhere more than in Europe, growing numbers of people are actively saying they don't believe there is a heaven or a hell or anything other than this life.

Many analysts trace the rise of what some are calling the "nonreligious movement" to the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. The sight of religious fanatics killing 3,000 people caused many to begin questioning -- and rejecting -- all religion.

"This is overwhelmingly the topic of the moment," said Terry Sanderson, president of the National Secular Society of Britain. "Religion in this country was very quiet until September 11, and now it is at the center of everything."

Since the 2001 attacks, a string of religiously inspired bomb and murder plots has shaken Europe. Muslim radicals killed 52 people on the London public transit system in 2005 and 191 on Madrid trains in 2004. People apparently aiming for a reward in heaven were arrested in Britain last year for trying to blow up transatlantic jetliners. And earlier this month in Germany, authorities arrested converts to Islam on charges that they planned to blow up American facilities there.

Many Europeans are angry at demands to use taxpayer money to accommodate Islam, Europe's fastest-growing religion, which now has as many as 20 million followers on the continent. Along with calls for prayer rooms in police stations, foot baths in public places and funding for Islamic schools and mosques, expensive legal battles have broken out over the niqab, the Muslim veil that covers all but the eyes, which some devout women seek to wear in classrooms and court.

Christian fundamentalist groups who want to halt certain science research, reverse abortion and gay rights and teach creationism rather than evolution in schools are also angering people, according to Sanderson and others.

"There is a feeling that religion is being forced on an unwilling public, and now people are beginning to speak out against what they see as rising Islamic and Christian militancy," Sanderson said.

Though the number of nonbelievers speaking their minds is rising, academics say it's impossible to calculate how many people silently share that view. Many people who do not consider themselves religious or belong to any faith group often believe, even if vaguely, in a supreme being or an afterlife. Others are not sure what they believe.

The term atheist can imply aggressiveness in disbelief; many who don't believe in God prefer to call themselves humanists, secularists, freethinkers, rationalists or, a more recently coined term, brights.

"Where religion is weak, people don't feel a need to organize against it," said Phil Zuckerman, an American academic who has written extensively about atheism around the globe.

He and others said secular groups are also gaining strength in countries where religious influence over society looms large, including India, Israel and Turkey. "Any time we see an outspoken movement against religion, it tells us that religion has power there," Zuckerman said.

One group of nonbelievers in particular is attracting attention in Europe: the Council of Ex-Muslims. Founded earlier this year in Germany, the group now has a few hundred members and an expanding number of chapters across the continent. "You can't tell us religion is peaceful -- look around at the misery it is causing," said Maryam Namazie, leader of the group's British chapter.

She and other leaders of the council held a news conference in The Hague to launch the Dutch chapter on Sept. 11, the sixth anniversary of the terrorist attacks in the United States. "We are all atheists and nonbelievers, and our goal is not to eradicate Islam from the face of the earth," but to make it a private matter that is not imposed on others, she said.

The majority of nonbelievers say they are speaking out only because of religious fanatics. But some atheists are also extreme, urging people, for example, to blot out the words "In God We Trust" from every dollar bill they carry.

Gaining political clout and access to television and radio airtime is the goal of many of these groups. With a higher profile, they say, they could, for instance, lobby for all religious rooms in public hospitals to be closed, as a response to Muslims demanding prayer rooms because Christians have chapels.

Associations of nonbelievers are also moving to address the growing demand in Britain, Spain, Italy and other European countries for nonreligious weddings, funerals and celebrations for new babies. They are helping arrange ceremonies that steer clear of talk of God, heaven and miracles and celebrate, as they say, "this one life we know."

The British Humanist Association, which urges people who think "the government pays too much attention to religious groups" to join them, has seen its membership double in two years to 6,500.

A humanist group in the British Parliament that looks out for the rights of the nonreligious now has about 120 members, up from about 25 a year ago.

Doreen Massey, a Labor Party member of the House of Lords who belongs to that group, said most British people don't want legislators to make public policy decisions on issues such as abortion and other health matters based on their religious affiliation.

But the church has disproportionate power and influence in Parliament, she said. Forexample, she said, polls show that 80 percent of Britons want the terminally ill who are in pain to have the right to a medically assisted death, yet such proposals have been effectively killed by a handful of powerful bishops.

"We can't accept that religious faiths have a monopoly on ethics, morality and spirituality," Massey said. Now, she added, humanist and secularist groups are becoming "more confident and more powerful" and recognize that they represent the wishes of huge numbers of people.
While the faithful have traditionally met like-minded people at the local church, mosque or synagogue, it has long been difficult for those without religion to find each other. The expansion of the Internet has made it a vital way for nonbelievers to connect.

In retirement centers, restaurants, homes and public lectures and debates, nonbelievers are convening to talk about how to push back what they see as increasingly intrusive religion.

"Born Again Atheist," "Happy Heathen" and other anti-religious T-shirts and bumper stickers are increasingly seen on the streets. Groups such as the Skeptics in the Pub in London, which recently met to discuss this topic, "God: The Failed Hypothesis," are now finding that they need bigger rooms to accommodate those who find them online.

Wright, the teacher who recently declared himself a nonbeliever, is one of thousands of people who have joined dues-paying secular and humanist groups in Europe this year.

Sitting in his living room on a quiet cul-de-sac in this English town of 30,000, Wright said he now goes online every day to keep up with the latest atheist news.

"One has to step up and stem the rise of religious influence," said Wright, who is thinking of becoming a celebrant at humanist funerals. He said he recently went to the church funeral of his brother-in-law and couldn't bear the "vacuous prayers of the vicar," who, Wright said, "looked bored and couldn't wait to leave."

Now, instead of each morning silently reciting a favorite nighttime prayer, "Lighten our darkness, we beseech thee, O Lord, and by thy great mercy defend us from all perils and dangers . . . " (from the Anglican Book of Common Prayer), he spends the time just thinking about the day ahead.

He said his deceased mother, a Catholic, was comforted by her faith: "It kept her going through difficult times," particularly when his father left her when he and his sister were young.

"I really don't know how I will react if something really bad happens," he said. "But there is no going back. There is nothing to go back to."

Not believing in an afterlife, he said, "makes you think you have to make the most of this life. It's the now that matters. It also makes you feel a greater urgency of things that matter," such as halting global warming, and not just dismissing it as being "all in God's plan."

He called himself heartened that the National Secular Society, which he recently joined, is planning to open chapters at a dozen universities this fall. The rising presence of the nonreligious movement, he said, is "fantastic."

"It's a bit of opposition, isn't it?" he said. "Why should these religious groups hold so much sway?

Eboo! In Israel Law keeps order. There are no mass out of order protests in America either without the police rightly quashing it. In Arab countries the leaders are in front of the pack! Arab nations are uncivilized which is why Saddam was such a successful dictator and the Iraqi's LONG for one of his days.

We all have an enormous mountain to climb to be able to see light of God's love for all creation. After reading 'Acts of Faith' I have gone one step further up that mountain.
Is it easy? no! Nothing worth it's salt (sorry Lot) is easy.
Peace comes with each step and Eboo is helping lead the way.
Thank you and
PAX

Eboo,

What you are saying is that we should put aside our religious beliefs and all just come together and get along. Like America has always done. Exactly when did that happen? If I recall my history, did we not hang and burn witches in Salem for being different? Did we not house Japanese and Chinese Americans during the WWII for looking like the enemy? Did we not have 100 years of turmoil after the Civil War because we did not do right by the African Americans? So when did we "all just get along"?

I think your vision is a myth. Moreover, I think your myth clouds our vision on who is our real enemy. Your last name being Patel indicates that your heritage is Indian. Where are all the Muslims in India? Why Pakistan is the answer. You shipped them off to their own country. Even your own people could not get along with Islam. Why do you think we should?

Eboo,

You make statements without supporting references. Please cite your references of the "facts" you noted in your commentary.

Also have you come to grips with the flaws of Islam yet??? Christians are coming to grips with the flaws of their religion as noted by the studies and publications of groups like the Jesus Seminar and three of the On Faith panelists Professors Borg, Crossan and Fredriksen. I see no analogous studies of Islam being done. I wonder why that is???????????????????/

It is ashamed these posters reflect exactly what this author writes about diviciveness, exclusuionary attitudes, religious rightousness, and the list goes on.

American's are acting like their middle Eastern counterparts, citing religious doctrines for not getting along instead of seeking common ground as the basis for dialogue and getting along.

Investigating what we have in common and not how we are diferent may lead to some real amazing realizations abpout life and people.

We are more alike than we are different!

Perhaps American people can put their religious beliefs aside long enough to enjoy their neighbors irregardless of their neighbors religious beliefs.

Patrick

"America is unique precisely because it is a country of communities from elsewhere who do not carry the ethnic and religious tensions from the homeland here."

The religion that most carried to the US was Christianity. Or if they were not Christian they were polytheists who in many cases became Christians. That's why the melting pot worked; a common God and belief in Christ. Other groups either were too small or not focused. Hispanics come to American, sometimes illegally, and they will assimilate because they are Christians. Jews don't represents large numbers and Christians consider Jehovah also their God.

Now, Muslim come here and they have a religion and culture that does not even want to assimilate. Islam has to dominate and the first step is to set up a "state within a state" which is a concept already being preached from every Mosque in the nation. This message being financed by Saudi oil money. This is being done to keep Muslims separate from the rest of us.

The school is out on Islam's ability to assimilate and become another community in America. I have my doubts based on the historical record in Spain and the rest of Europe and based on current situations in the rest of the world. These two do not mix. Look at the problems in France, Germany, and England. All these countries are now limiting Muslim immigration because they are realizing that Muslims do not assimilate that well into a Christian, secular societies. They come with their special dress codes, the call to pray, need for special bathrooms and all kinds of other demanded accommodations. They also come with a superior attitude and a desire to eventually dominate not assimilate.

Why are we repeating history when history demonstrates that compatibility of religious beliefs determines the ability or lack thereof to fully assimilate? We are making a mistake and should begin to limit immigration before we face the problems of France. Western values and principles are not compatible with Islam for many reason but primarily because Islam is all-in-one: a way of government, a definition of a culture, and way of worship. It was not designed to co-exists and assimilate. It is designed to operate as a "state within a state" until such time as it can dominant.

EBOO-

No one wants to hold hands with you and sing Kum Ba Ya. We are at war.

This is another example of Muslims not being able to get along with anyone else.
They bring their message of violence and hatred for non-Muslims to US college campuses and elsewhere while they champion the cause of intolerance in their 55 exclusively Islamic nations.

Romans 11

The fundamentalists of all 3 of the Abrahamic superstitions are the current root causes of much of the inflammed rethoric and actions occurring in the world. The remainder is the dynamic between the fascist forces represented in the US by the Neo-Cons and the K street operatives of the corporate elitists and the rest of the America. That these 2 reactionary forces have allied politically accounts for much of the failures in American government!

The Jewish state created by the WWII winners in Palistine is greatest political mistake of the 20th Century, greater than the appeasement of Hitler in Austria! The Jewish fundamentalist allied with the Christian fundamentalist in some Machevellian alliance have become of rallying siren for the Muslem fundamentalist! None of these groups have the capability to allow the others to exist; the Christian support of the Jews to get the second coming where all Jews will be slaughtered is a sick hypocricy at best!

Having the jingolistic slogans in churches, mosques, and temples is a perversion of all that is holy, one more evil in the facade of organized religions!

Thank you for your thoughtful, reasonable comments on our dangerous and divided situation.
I've only recently discovered your blog, and I'd like to subscribe to it. I cannot figure out how to do that.
Thanks,
Pat

Thank you for your thoughtful, reasonable comments on our dangerous and divided situation.
I've only recently discovered your blog, and I'd like to subscribe to it. I cannot figure out how to do that.
Thanks,
Pat