Mischka:
No one has seen a monster for obvious reasons; however we all know what attributes a monster has. Therefore human monsters were never created they are produced. Its no wonder the people who recently awarded 200 lashes to a woman in Saudi Arabia are monsters. The Monster laws that makes a court of law award such a barbaric punishment for basic human nature are derived from the quran...read Sura 24; "Scourge adulterers and adulteresses with 100 stripes. Do not show them any pity. Have a party of believers watch the punishment."
Notice how Allah will NOT allow you to have pity or show compassion; it’s the creation of a Monster(s). Also notice the "show" allah desires of such a process, it just creates more monsters.

You appear to have all the makings of a monster. You have pet replies to any question put to you, your answers; one can get from any Mullah on Masjid lane. The worst possible reply I got from you was about Moahmmed attacking the Kabah. From your logic it's allowed for Muslims to take over all the Hindu holy places of India and convert them into mosques or destroy them. After all they are only worshipping idols right? It says so in the quran... Allah's and Mohammed’s worst enemies the idol-worshipers, all over the quran you can see his disdain for these people. "Slay the idol-worshipers when you encounter them...” Please don't give me a history lesson about what the early Americans or the Christians did, I really don't care. They are not claiming to be the one and only "Prophet". What they do or did then and now they do for themselves and for expansion of their race. What Mohammed did was for himself and his creation of Allah, and that is what we are discussing here. If you cannot answer a question then please say so and screw those history lessons okay.

Your words...
"Ever hear of Christopher Columbus? Or was he and the majority of US history mythical as well according to Arif now?"

Who was talking of these guys? BTW Christopher Columbus did not create a God and neither was he claiming to be prophet, nor was he a great religious figure. I don't care what he did. Mohammed on the other hand was a ruthless warrior, one who had a insatiable hatred for the Jews/idol-worshippers, who slaughters them in his wars, snatches/enslaves their women children and wealth then proclaims prophet hood; no prophet has, or ever came from the bastard child of Abraham; Mohammed was the only one who claims to be one.

Your words again;
"America rightfully belonged to the Native Americans. What is your point here? "

Genius, you can never get my point. I'm wasting my time here.

Mohammed was a fraud, a person who feared women a misogynist. From his teachings you get women like yourself and monsters who want to lash women or cover them or strangle them for not covering themselves.

Your words of wisdom...
"Its in the Qur'an. There is no proof of a God either...yet we believe. Why? "

One last time, I don't care if it's in the koran, see for yourself what I think of that book and its author. The author (Mohammed) was a fraud, his creation of Allah was too a fraud, my point all along has been that I don't believe in Mohammeds Allah, why can't you get it? Is that too hard to understand?

My concept of a God is entirely different from Mohammed’s and from yours for that matter. My God does not lash people, or hang people, or kill them or slaughter them, or chop off their fingertips for worshipping idols. My God doesn't want me to "wash" before talking to him, he does not want me to talk to him at a certain time when the sun in at a certain position in the sky, or "point" in a certain direction. He does not care if I fast or if I eat hallal or eat pigs or drink beer. My God is infinite, is vast, cannot fit in a box or a cube that people circle, or a poorly written book.

Mischka: Please don't bother replying, your replies are so predictable and so pathetic that I don't have the energy to respond. Truly and honestly I enjoy talking to my Maulvie uncle and discuss Islam with him more than I do with you. Though he looses his temper often and threatens to kill me he always comes around and at least tries to have a rational discussion. He’s even learnt to use the internet and emails me volumes of crap, you on the other hand are a hardened Monster, and sorry but that is the truth.

Hi Victoria, I'll wait for your opinion. I have to go Christmas shopping now. My kids do believe in Santa you know.

hello arif, salaams mischka-

im afraid i dont have time right now, but the issue of prayer is a favorite one of mine.

i have a definite opinion which is consistently thematic througout these boards- so ill get back to you.
peace

Arif -

"You see, there people who lop bombs in mosques while the rich and poor are praying in unison, thus proving that Allah erred when making that rule."

Ever seen a church, synangogue, temple, mosque, etc? Its the same reasoning...but again...its lost on you. The whole world is crazy to congregate and pray together...but Arif is not. What do you suggest O Wise One? We bow down to you? Seriously Arif, you amaze me.

"Sorry for the delayed reply, I was simply too "lazy". Please don't take this as a competition or a contest, the one who makes the best insults or jabs wins, but that shouldn’t stop you from doing so."

Arif, please dont play victim on these blogs when you take the first step to attack my religion and now want to pretend as if you were innocently inquiring. I would hardly call your attacks an inquiry. They are irritating.

"Thanks for taking the time to reply to my queries about prayer."

You are welcome.

"I however predicted your reply; Muslims like to believe that the kabah is the birth place of Islam. I simply don't believe that."

You are not a Muslim - you dont have to. Case closed. Continue on your spiritual journey. Let me know when you get to your final stop.

"The Kabah rightfully belonged to the pagans; they worshipped their statues and had their own gods/goddesses."

America rightfully belonged to the Native Americans. What is your point here? In that case, go back to Pakistan or find another country if you feel so strongly about this.

It was Mohammed who snatched it, smashed their sacred statues and made Kabah his."

Ever hear of Christopher Columbus? Or was he and the majority of US history mythical as well according to Arif now?

"Islam leads you to believe that Abraham laid the foundation to the Kaaba, I don't, and there is absolutely no proof of that."

Its in the Qur'an. There is no proof of a God either...yet we believe. Why?

"Furthermore Abraham was a Jew and even the Jews have no recollection of this incident. They are very thorough about their history and their stories are very well documented."

So are our stories. You will find volumes.

"Islam took from the Jews all that they have and distorted most of it. Can you or anyone build a person, any Jewish prophet by using the Koran only; NO. Using the Koran alone can you tell me who Abraham was? or who Noah was or anyone for that matter... I'd like to see that if you can... but then again I am lazy and did not try hard enough."

Arif - you are lazy. And you are also very tiresome. It is snowing like crazy in Chicago right now and I just battled my way to work a little while ago. Yes, there is proof of all of the above - someday I will tell you. Just not today.

"we could be the President of Pakistan or a pheasant...it does NOT matter."

This is an example! According to Islam - we were speaking of Islam - this is the reasoning behind prayer together.

"Why not? The Sudanese were doing what is exactly Islamic. You understand Islam better than the panel of judges and the law system that was put forward by Muslim scholars of Sudan?"

The Sudanese were NOT doing what is Islamic and that is why I do not agree with it. I dont care about the law system there...its only human isnt it? Its man made and man can make mistakes. What happened there was a HUGE mistake.

Hello Victoria and Mischka,

Victoria; thanks for that window into your past and how it has lead you to your faith. I am happy for you in that your search for the truth has ended and that you are now compelled to defend/share your faith with others. You were once a vegetarian and then left it for health reasons, I too once became a vegan, sadly though that did not last as my wife would have nothing of it besides we enjoy travel and eating out which drastically limited my food selections.

About prayers, alas the reasons given are not so simple for me, despite the rules and five time prayer it has no significance. You see, there people who lop bombs in mosques while the rich and poor are praying in unison, thus proving that Allah erred when making that rule. In a country where people only greet each other the Islamic greeting there is no peace between brothers (please don't blame the Jews for that too).

Mischka,
Sorry for the delayed reply, I was simply too "lazy". Please don't take this as a competition or a contest, the one who makes the best insults or jabs wins, but that shouldn’t stop you from doing so. Thanks for taking the time to reply to my queries about prayer. I however predicted your reply; Muslims like to believe that the kabah is the birth place of Islam. I simply don't believe that. The Kabah rightfully belonged to the pagans; they worshipped their statues and had their own gods/goddesses. It was Mohammed who snatched it, smashed their sacred statues and made Kabah his. It has been a Muslim thing since then to take over other peoples places of worship and make it theirs. Islam leads you to believe that Abraham laid the foundation to the Kaaba, I don't, and there is absolutely no proof of that. Furthermore Abraham was a Jew and even the Jews have no recollection of this incident. They are very thorough about their history and their stories are very well documented. Islam took from the Jews all that they have and distorted most of it. Can you or anyone build a person, any Jewish prophet by using the Koran only; NO. Using the Koran alone can you tell me who Abraham was? or who Noah was or anyone for that matter... I'd like to see that if you can... but then again I am lazy and did not try hard enough.
I love this quote...
"we could be the President of Pakistan or a pheasant...it does NOT matter. "

You as well as I know this does not ever happen, when the last time you saw the King of Saudi Arabia or Musharraf pray in public without the whole army surrounding them.
Please don't live in a fantasy world, in modern day security and conditions this simply does not happen. I do commend you for the implied "thought" though.

" I dont agree at all with what happened in Sudan..."
Why not? The Sudanese were doing what is exactly Islamic. You understand Islam better than the panel of judges and the law system that was put forward by Muslim scholars of Sudan?

Arif -

"It is very clear from your replies that you are greatly annoyed in explaining your point of view, hence the caps and more than usual exclamation points."

Gee - you seem to be very perceptive.

"You offer no reasons, only backup your laws."

I have stated reasons before and here I am quoting myself YET again -

"Yes, there is a need to point in a certain direction for prayer. The Kabah is the place where Islam was born. I dont see what you find so difficult to grasp about it. There is a need for Muslims to have a certain time for prayer. It is a time when every single Muslim is one and equal standing next to each other under Allah. When we pray together...we could be the President of Pakistan or a pheasant...it does NOT matter. For those moments, you are simply Allah's creation. Thats it. Our reality is that we are all equal and no one is better then the other. Praying at the same time all over the world, side by side in Jamat reinforces that concept. What do you think Midnight Mass and going to Church every Sunday is about? As for ablutions...I didnt know you had a problem with hygiene too...you must not be very clean. Ablution reinforces the concept of cleanliness being half the faith. The practice of ablution and prayer is one of unification of all Muslims...doing Wudu side by side and praying side by side. Islam encourages and promotes living peacefully as equals every step of the way."

The above are not laws that I am quoting out of text books. They are real reasons that make a lot of sense if you looked at it from a non-judgemental perspective. You cant blame Islam for you being predisposed to certain opinions.

"Muslims don't have it in them to deviate or think for themselves"

I think for myself...in fact I raised a lot of the same questions when I was growing up. The answers that I got made me happy. I am okay with praying in a certain direction and doing Wudu. I am happy eating meat that has been cut in the name of Allah. If you are not - that is okay.

"Just see the case of the British teacher in Sudan; they want her head, your predictable response would be; they are not Muslims."

I didnt say they are not Muslim at all. In fact, you can go on another post and see my response to this. I dont agree at all with what happened in Sudan. I think it was mishandled and an extreme miscarriage of justice.

"Islam is completely lacking in spirituality, something you'll never grasp since you've been bought up with "rules/laws" only to obey but dare not question."

On the contrary - I was not raised with rules and laws that I never dared to break. I was raised in a Muslim household where we discussed everything about Islam. We didnt just blindly follow...thats unfair to expect from a human being. I asked my parents and teachers questions about everything. It is my right. I have no idea what rules you are talking about. Maybe being in a Jamat is the problem.

"Your explanations so far to me about Islam are strict and rule based; never deviate less you'll incur the wrath of Allah."

Wrong again - I dont believe in this kind of blind faith. I have no expected to believe without having a good reason.

"You come off as a person who can never think freely or for herself; you come off as a hard and callous person."

And you come off as ignorant and lazy. Its okay if I seem that way to you. I am not too concerned with how I come off to you. What I am concerned about is this wierd outlook you have on Islam. I dont know what text books you read or if you had an opportunity to really learn about the religion.

"You are always consulting your rules least you break the "laws"."

Believe it or not...rules and guidelines are important in life. I know you dont believe in having ANY rules...but that would be almost a barbaric existence. The Constitution is a set of rules...the Bible is a set of rules...and so is the Qur'an. Rules are necessary otherwise man becomes sloppy.

"A spiritual person never bothers about how clean/dirty a person is, about time/place for prayer about formal prayer vs. spiritual meditation, the food one eats, the surroundings one inhabits etc."

A spiritual person in an ideal world like yours? Where he has no care about how clean he is and how he addresses his God? Is there a maid you have that wipes you now and then? It seems as if you are looking for a life in the wild.

"I can't call a person dirty, filthy or lazy because they fail to conform to my rules, this comes naturally with a dogmatic, ridged, ritualistic upbringing; Islam."

Not conforming to MY rules is not an issue...you have absolutely NO rules. Do you have a conscious? Just wondering.

"That's why I do actually admire these words, perhaps they are from Jesus;

"It is not what enters into the mouth that defiles the man, but what proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man.""

If you believe in these words...then please abide by them. Its simply hypocritical for you to put these words on a post of yours right underneath all of the sweet things you said about my religion.

"These are very powerful words for those who can dare to think. However only a spiritual person can grasp these words for they are entirely lost to Islam,"

Actually, they are not lost to Islam. I dont think you have read much about Islam at all. I am beginning to suspect that you have been severely brain washed and deliberately tainted.

"even by eating foods deemed unclean a Muslim falls from grace. Take your dietary laws for meats and drinks that you have been chastising me about. What difference does it make where the food came from or who prepared it? Food is simply a need for the body; not so in Islam."

Food is simply a need for the body - right. Who cares where it came from? Havent you ever heard of "you are what you eat"? There are guidelines in Islam when it comes to everything so we can lead healthy and long lives. And why not?

"I questioned the Islamic rules of prayer but you stuck to your guns, your reply was not even lukewarm, what else can you do? How unfortunate that you cannot let your own mind expand."

Sweetheart, I let my mind expand all over the place and I found Islam to be the most satisfying to me. If it isnt to you...great! Dont follow it. But dont attempt to defame it because you hated it when someone called you Shaytan. So, why would you do that to someone else? What exactly would that accomplish? You are just venting Arif...you have absolutely NOTHING substantial to say. Nothing.

"Ritualistic prayer has no bearing on me, for me an Almighty creator won't fit in a box and above all else it has to be infinite."

So - you have rules now as to how you want your creator to be? Would you like a side of fries and a free pass to Heaven with that too? See??!! Lazy!

"Only if we imagine infinity can we shed dumb rules of prayer/food/fasting/punishment and fear not for breaking the sacred "laws"."

Laws are there for the betterment of humanity and for a disciplined life. There have to be some rules. If you dont like rules...find the nearest jungle and free yourself!

"It's beyond you because you are not capable of thinking outside the box, you are a hard person made so by your rules and laws."

I can think inside, outside and all over the box. Its you who is a hard person made that way because beer is just too tempting to you.

"I had an uncle growing up...there was nothing soft about this man, a hard man from the inside. He beat his daughters and wife when "rules" were bent or broken till the wife died and the daughters got married. He built a house with Islamic toilets his wife had bad knees, he didn't care."

My father was the opposite of this man you talk about. He never beat his children, he taught us everything we know now, he didnt force me to marry my husband, he never laid a hand on my mother...ever. In my parents home, my mother makes the rules. In my home, I do. The man that I am married to now is even more religious then I am. He has never disrespected me and I know he never will.

"Now he lives alone in a room where one of his daughters who still loves her father will bring him his meals, there is no communication between him and any of his children, and all conversation is formal. He is a hard and angry man, who never misses a prayer and never fails to slaughter an animal all by himself on Eid to this day."

Its unfortunate that this was your experience. Mine was really different and I was not forced to simply believe in rules blindly. We were educated and not commanded.

"I hope in some ways I have answered your questions/allegations you've put in bolds and caps,"

The only question I asked you was: tell me your way of benignly killing an animal. And you have not answered that in your mile long post.

"I cannot tell you that there are other ways of killing animals for food because you won't listen."

Im listening...I dont hear a single thing from you.

"I cannot tell you how insignificant I see the reason to pray five times a day saying the same garbage over and over."

To you, it doesnt mean anything...to me it does. To me, this is Allah's way of telling us that he wants us to live in harmony and that we are all equal. The five times are not designed for exercise. They are designed to unify Muslims repeatedly and remind each other that whether you are rich or poor...you pray to the same Creator.

"I cannot tell you how it makes no difference whether I pray pointing north, south, east, west or to the ground because you are too stiff to bend in your ways."

To you - these small things mean nothing because you have already started to hate Islam as a result of your upbringning. Nothing can change that. I am not stiff at all...I love discussing religions...all sorts of them! I think its the most interesting topic and it fascinates me to see how different people are from one another.

"We see things entirely differently and no amount of arguing will bring about change in you or me because I have left dogma and rule and am looking for something else."

Well - let me know when you find it.

"I'll check again on Monday, till then have a nice weekend and be kind/soft/gentle to your husband.
Happy Friday!!!"

I am always nice to him...he doesnt seem to think so sometimes...but thats okay.

Hasta La Vista.

arif- hello, i lived in california for a long time, and when i was there was peripherally involved with PETA (people for the ethical treatment of animals)

i watched alot of movies and saw pictures of how animals are processed and treated for consumption in america- it shook me so much that i became a vegetarian for 5 years.

when i went back to my home in pittsburgh pa, i was assistant manager to a restaurant(run by some savvy hare krishnas) which was vegetarian, and also a meeting place for PETA-

one experience i had that made me break ranks ( i was never overly involved) was it was sub freezing when i returned (from 70 degree sunshine)

my brother (who was a bit of a clothes horse) gave me a mink full length coat to wear, as i didnt have one.

when i went to the restaurant, and some peta people saw me - they had a heart attack.
i said, "well, its freezing out there- ive been in california for 5 years im not used to it)

the next week a woman brought me a cheap coat, which i accepted graciously, put on,went outside and immediately froze. so i gave it back to her, put on my fur coat and it maddened them.

i asked, "arent people as important as animals?"
apparently some people have the idea that animals are morally superior because they dont 'sin' (but people dont eat each other_) anyway, it was a long silly argument and i ended up wearing the coat because it was very warm.

i also ended up going back to eating meat because i just didnt feel strong as a vegetarian- was too skinny and got sick when id never been sick before ( iwas young too)
even though i had access to much veggie food- (ventually they closed becaue they raised their prices out of the league of the student patrons- it seems enlightenment gets trumped by money sometimes)

i have other interetign and strange stories from those experiences but not overly (but somewhat) relevant. dont get me started on the neutered mouse-

ive been eating meat all my life- if there is one day when we actually are conscious of where this meat comes from- and take an active part in its killing- (which ive never done actually)
yes, it is barbaric in a way, but so is the slaughter of any animal for our use.

its not like the animal woud be averting its fate if it wasnt slaughtered by muslims for eid.

in america we are mostly protected rom these facts of survival-

but it does have a deeper reason- the ritual remembrance of abraham and the sacrifice he was prepared to make to be obedient to the god.

being obedient to the god is an important thing for me- and i listen to my own conscience to do it-
other people are always eager to tell me how to do it- but they can only speak for themselves-
as a person who has had absolute freedom in my life, and i mean ABSOLUTE- (when i was 14, i came home at 1 AM one time, my mother asked why i bothered to come hom ein the freezing cold, i should have stayed where i was- i said i had no phone- she said, "you can stay out all night- I TRUST YOU"

I SAID, "are you nuts woman? DONT trust me! im a 14 year old girl! what do i know???"

she really did trust me though, because she knew i controlled myself through my own conscience- i told her i WANTED her to set limits, boundaries, but she said,"i seemed to know myself better what was right and wrong"

she was right, i was born old and was the moral compass in our little family- but most people are not

there is also , as i like to say, freedom to make mistakes in america.

but- it has to come from within our own selves- it cannot be imposed upon us by others-
that will work for awhile, but, as ive seen with many immigrant women when they come to america, they are operating by different standards and dont understadn how to protect themselves from experiences they have no knowledge of

in islam, we have a solid core of morality -
most muslis to be honest, seem to cling to tei cultural traditions and cant make the distinction between what is islam, and what their grandmother told them is aceptable.
but that is social mores which is a different subject

i am not satisfied with pat answers- ACTUALLY THEY ANNOY ME

i come from a christian mentality, where love and forgiveness is all important-
these are the aspects of islam that i have resonated to-
but i realize not all people are good in their intentions-
christianity lends no sort of philosophy of discernment or wisdom in how it protects its weaker memebers
well, i dont know how much ive stayed on point here-
obedience to the god is the simialr to me as being obedient to my deeper conscience

when my inner conscience encounters tricky unknowns, i must admit i have found concrete reasoning and answers in exploring the qu'ran

but i have the advantage of having no legion of relatives or mullahs leaning over my shoulder and interpreting for me
one hting that i find very distasteful- no matter who says it- are people who judgeother peope for their beliefs

if a muslim came upon me 10 years ago, possibly they would have seen an idol worshipper-
they wouldnt have seen the heart of devotion to the god beating in me -

i see the same thing- the muslim praying next to me in the mosque, may harbor all sors of ugliness unseen by me and may eventually fall short of their adherence to the god -but may be putting on a great show right now!

and the perosn stumbling drunk down the street may have a heart of pain and kindness with the potential for much good-
i know, ive been working with and living with all sorts of drunks, drug abusers, sexually 'fallen' etc---

to me, the people who have suffered are the ones who are learning how to be humans-
im not so sure about the comfortably complacent ones who are 'sure' of their path- have never really been tested-
they are always the first ones to point fingers-

kindness and compassion are our path and religion arif-

i just looked up the meaning of your name, and it seems to mean 'one who knows'

i dont find in you so much a desire to defame islam, as much as a disnechantment- or a feeling of betrayal that the values presented were not lived up to in your co-religionists

and people who have abused their religious beliefs to cover up their own failings or justify them

were all guilty of that
i grew up extraordinarly poor, even by any standards

i have never striven to be a moneymaker as in chritianity it is eschewed to be materialistic we are ecncouraged to give up material things

i even renounced all material possessions for many years(but im a magnet for stuff- you dont have a TV?
tell everyone ho you DONT want one- i used to paint mandalas on my tv screens- when the fued glow comes from behind, theyre quite beautiful- but peole kept giving them to me! the more i said i didnt want stuff- the more determined they are- even when i say- IM GOING TO PAINT OVER THE SCREEN!

BUT THIS IS AN IRRESPONSIBLE WAY TO LIVE, BECAUSE WE NEED THINGS, WE NEED MEAT TO EAT, AND IF WE DONT SUPPLY IT FOR OURSELVES- SOMEONE SOMEOWHERE HAS TO DO IT FOR US
oops- caps-

so i determiined to be the one who supplied it to those who didnt have it-
and i have- ive fed hundreds probably thousands of peope in my life in my feeding programs- taken countless people and animals into my home-

right now ive got 2 abandoned kittens who i have to feed with a bottle and they can be very demanding and annoying- but alhamdoulilah- they are eating second stage gruel now as of yesterday

i love animals, dont even kill any bugs at all-
but i laso realize that i eat, and in doing so am allowing someone somewhere to kill it for me-

if one day a year, i have to be conscious of this, and remeber where it comes from to begin with, given gratutude, give remembrance- appreciate the sacrifices made that i am not making myself-

i know ill die one day- ive sat with many a dying person ( i did AIDS volunteer for years)
have seen a few people die, and animals-
death is ugly- it is barbaric it is horrible- but it is a part of life and something all humans share

so i hope i can help you to remeber what it was about the Prophet(pbuh) that inspired you in your youth, and not remind you of the bad behaviors or interpretations of his actions that live on in some peoples failing hearts-

also- on the issue of the child marriage- i have another research, but this is surely long enough for now-
o and also the beauty of prayer and its necessity but thats another story for another time
peace

Hello Mischka:
It is very clear from your replies that you are greatly annoyed in explaining your point of view, hence the caps and more than usual exclamation points. This is common behavior I have came across growing up, only then it was face to face. Later on I refrained from asking simple but yet tough questions to both my peers and superiors for their reactions were absolutely predictable; similar to yours. You offer no reasons, only backup your laws. Muslims don't have it in them to deviate or think for themselves, just see the case of the British teacher in Sudan; they want her head, your predictable response would be; they are not Muslims.

I had pointed out earlier that Islam is dogmatic, ritualistic and much ridged in the rules it imposes like an army. While the army needs order and dicipline for obvious reasons spirituality does not, it is entirely a different paradigm. It is this very reason warriors and jihadists prefer Islam.

Islam is completely lacking in spirituality, something you'll never grasp since you've been bought up with "rules/laws" only to obey but dare not question.

Your explanations so far to me about Islam are strict and rule based; never deviate less you'll incur the wrath of Allah. You come off as a person who can never think freely or for herself; you come off as a hard and callous person. You are always consulting your rules least you break the "laws". A spiritual person never bothers about how clean/dirty a person is, about time/place for prayer about formal prayer vs. spiritual meditation, the food one eats, the surroundings one inhabits etc.

I can't call a person dirty, filthy or lazy because they fail to conform to my rules, this comes naturally with a dogmatic, ridged, ritualistic upbringing; Islam. That's why I do actually admire these words, perhaps they are from Jesus;

"It is not what enters into the mouth that defiles the man, but what proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man."

These are very powerful words for those who can dare to think. However only a spiritual person can grasp these words for they are entirely lost to Islam, even by eating foods deemed unclean a Muslim falls from grace. Take your dietary laws for meats and drinks that you have been chastising me about. What difference does it make where the food came from or who prepared it? Food is simply a need for the body; not so in Islam.

I questioned the Islamic rules of prayer but you stuck to your guns, your reply was not even lukewarm, what else can you do? How unfortunate that you cannot let your own mind expand.

Ritualistic prayer has no bearing on me, for me an Almighty creator won't fit in a box and above all else it has to be infinite. Only if we imagine infinity can we shed dumb rules of prayer/food/fasting/punishment and fear not for breaking the sacred "laws". It's beyond you because you are not capable of thinking outside the box, you are a hard person made so by your rules and laws.

We humans get tired of repetition, how do you think an infinite Creator of the Universe would react to a person praying five times a day, saying the same crap over and over for an entire lifetime?

I had an uncle growing up, he was never an uncle to me, always worried about MY prayers, my ablutions, my right hand vs. left hand; I think I was to marry his daughter-didn't happen. There was nothing soft about this man, a hard man from the inside. He beat his daughters and wife when "rules" were bent or broken till the wife died and the daughters got married. He built a house with Islamic toilets his wife had bad knees, he didn't care. Now he lives alone in a room where one of his daughters who still loves her father will bring him his meals, there is no communication between him and any of his children, and all conversation is formal. He is a hard and angry man, who never misses a prayer and never fails to slaughter an animal all by himself on Eid to this day.

I hope in some ways I have answered your questions/allegations you've put in bolds and caps, I cannot tell you that there are other ways of killing animals for food because you won't listen. I cannot tell you how insignificant I see the reason to pray five times a day saying the same garbage over and over. I cannot tell you how it makes no difference whether I pray pointing north, south, east, west or to the ground because you are too stiff to bend in your ways. We see things entirely differently and no amount of arguing will bring about change in you or me because I have left dogma and rule and am looking for something else.

I'll check again on Monday, till then have a nice weekend and be kind/soft/gentle to your husband.
Happy Friday!!!

Actually I thought (my bad) that this thread was dead, it seems it's only between us, I will post a reply. I have much to do and cannot as yet, but post I will.

Arif

arif- i will try in my own (possibly laughable) wayto express how some of these ideas make sense to me- an american coming to islam withou any foreknowledge of its cultural implications.

i will wait for your assent, as you said you werent coming back-

if you have an interest, i promise to be as honest as i can

if not this time, ill see you around these boards and tell you when you're active- i dont forget
peace

"And that is exactly your problem, you refuse to question absurdities. If something makes absolutely no sense then why do it? I refuse to do anything that makes no sense to me; barbaric slaughtering of animals for starters."

Who said it doesnt make sense? If I have a question and I seek an answer - I get it and I have not been disappointed yet. That is why I am a Muslim. The slaughtering that we do of animals is by NO MEANS barbaric. Its humane...and the best way to do it. LIKE I SAID ARIF - DONT CALL IT BARBARIC UNLESS YOU HAVE A BETTER WAY TO DO IT.

HOW DO YOU THINK THE BEEF YOU EAT IS CUT? ANSWER THAT. HOW DO YOU THINK THE MEAT YOU CONSUME ALL THE TIME IS SLAUGHTERED? YOU THINK A FAIRY COMES BY AND PUTS THEM TO SLEEP AND THEN SOMEHOW THE MEAT JUST MAGICALLY CUTS ITSELF UP AND APPEARS IN MARKETS FOR YOUR BENIGN SOUL TO CHOMP ON???

I DONT THINK SO SWEETIE!

"There is not need to point in a direction to pray... stupid concept. There is no need to have a particular "time" for prayer. There is no need for stupid ablutions for prayer."

Yes, there is a need to point in a certain direction for prayer. The Kabah is the place where Islam was born. I dont see what you find so difficult to grasp about it. There is a need for Muslims to have a certain time for prayer. It is a time when every single Muslim is one and equal standing next to each other under Allah. When we pray together...we could be the President of Pakistan or a pheasant...it does NOT matter. For those moments, you are simply Allah's creation. Thats it. Our reality is that we are all equal and no one is better then the other. Praying at the same time all over the world, side by side in Jamat reinforces that concept. What do you think Midnight Mass and going to Church every Sunday is about? As for ablutions...I didnt know you had a problem with hygiene too...you must not be very clean. Ablution reinforces the concept of cleanliness being half the faith. The practice of ablution and prayer is one of unification of all Muslims...doing Wudu side by side and praying side by side. Islam encourages and promotes living peacefully as equals every step of the way.

If that is too hard for you to understand...I see why you cannot be a Muslim.

If you cant even offer a prayer...you shouldnt have a religion. You are exactly what I thought...lazy. Simple.

"the same people your parents escaped from to get a new life in USA under the kafirs. Now you and Eboo cry for recognition, give up these stupid rituals and join the rest of humanity."

What the heck is this all about? Is your anger towards Islam about something that happened to you years ago? This is not a board for you to get a psychiatric evaluation...its a discussion. Also, if my parents came here...they came as Muslims. Not Pakistanis...nationalism is not encouraged in Islam. They are still Muslims and devoted at that. I have NO idea what you mean by recognition...or how that makes any sense here!!!

"The terrorists were one of us, you have no right to call them "bozos" then you are a "bozos" too"

I have EVERY RIGHT TO CALL THEM BOZOS. I JUST DID. WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU GOING TO DO? TAKE YOUR BEST SHOT. I do NOT consider a bunch of ignorant murderers Muslims. No. I do NOT. If you do...that is your problem and also ignorance.

"you follow the same scripture the same pedophile prophet and his book, you pray the same way and slaughter animals the same way they slaughtered air-hostesses"

Actually, I follow the Qur'an and interpret it in the way its supposed to be interpreted. If these morons choose to twist the words that are supposed to pave a way for all Muslims to live in harmony...then they are not Muslim. They are bozos. They should be condemned by Muslims and condemned by society.

"Also, I will not be looking up this thread as it's dead. We'll meet again in one of Eboos stupid rants somewhere."

This is a nice way to close your ears to a discussion. Say whatever you want but you are afraid to see the other person's perspective. Here is what I think: you will check this thread again. You may not reply because of obvious reasons...but you will check it. And when you read this...you will know I was right.

"And herein lies the problem. Your religion is not a salad bar...its not a pay as you go type deal either..."
And that is exactly your problem, you refuse to question absurdities. If something makes absolutely no sense then why do it? I refuse to do anything that makes no sense to me; barbaric slaughtering of animals for starters. Yours is the reason our nations are stunted, no cherry picking! what a load of bunk! Face it Islam is dogmatic and those rules were obsolete eons ago. There is not need to point in a direction to pray... stupid concept. There is no need to have a particular "time" for prayer. There is no need for stupid ablutions for prayer. I have asked, and not one "scholar" could give me a good answer for these idiotic ancient arab customs. Tell me, if it's not in the quran then where did these stupid prayer rug gymnastics come from? Not that I hold the koran in high esteem, I think its a stupid book.

When I was at the University in Pakistan I was a member of the Jamaat-e-Islami for two years, they, as you may already know follow the strict code and teachings of Maulana Maudoodi, the same man who lived out his last years in USA. The man died in the USA and his wish was to be buried in Saudi Arabia because of his large contribution to Islam. His wish was never granted. Anyway I digressed; the reason I bought that up was that I was one of the Muslims you claim do NOT know Islam. The ones who currently are in power of NWFP, Baluchistan and have a strong hold on Islamabad... the same people your parents escaped from to get a new life in USA under the kafirs. Now you and Eboo cry for recognition, give up these stupid rituals and join the rest of humanity.

As to your other points about Mohammed and you not believing in what he did during his life is purely up to you, I on the other hand was taught of his wars and the way he killed off his enemies, his marriages, his concubines, his child bride etc. At that time I thought nothing of it. I had no doubts and regrets of what he (Mohammed) did. So there you have it, using your words "bozos"; the people who you claim are NOT Muslims but fanatics running Pakistan. I cannot and will not attempt to convince you that Mohammed was a thug; to me he once was a Prophet, the best general, a great warrior, a great husband, a wonderful man. However, at a certain point in my life, I could not follow such a ruthless man, his teaching and his book.

This brings me to the terrorist issue, one thing I cannot do, I cannot deny my heritage or my ancestors. The terrorists were one of us, you have no right to call them "bozos" then you are a "bozos" too, you follow the same scripture the same pedophile prophet and his book, you pray the same way and slaughter animals the same way they slaughtered air-hostesses.

"How would you know anything? You were never a Muslim and you are not a Muslim now Arif. You dont know how it feels to be born here, raised here and looked at like YOU personally blew up the Twin Towers. Why? Because your last name is the same as millions of other Muslims. "

What a load of cr@p! Now we are supposed to feel sorry for you? The terrorists belong to Islam, don't close your eyes and pretend they were "not Muslims" you sound like the others who claim the Jews did it, or the ones who think Bush orchestrated it. If it bothers you so much then change your name. If you think there were “bozos” then go preach to them your peaceful Islam.

Also, I will not be looking up this thread as it's dead. We'll meet again in one of Eboos stupid rants somewhere.

Mr. Patel, you are not going to change our traditions of Turkey and Stuffing. You are not celebrating Thanksgiving. You are taking a day off to have a feast.

Arif,

"What Abraham did centuries ago is not relevant to me today; I read all about it and don't subscribe to it."

And herein lies the problem. Your religion is not a salad bar...its not a pay as you go type deal either. You dont go to Church once a week in Islam and forget about Christ the rest of the week. It is a way of life. Your forefathers, your Prophets and their ways are what makes up this religion. You respecting and following their footsteps is what makes up this religion.

"I still don't see the relevance in slaughtering millions of animals on Eid for that one incident of an ancient JEWISH prophet."

I dont see the relevance in a lot of things in other religions. Idols, confessionals, etc. However, I DO respect other religions and their beliefs. I research and find out legitimate reasons why something is the way it is. Its a way of life for people and there is NOTHING wrong with respecting it. It teaches them good...why would I disrespect that??? What gives me the right to point fingers at other people??? Who died and made me God all of a sudden to be judgemental and say that YOU are wrong? You cannot insult/disrespect MY beliefs (you are not a Muslim - they are no longer your beliefs) and I have no right to disrespect yours.

"There are better ways to kill animals for food, why must Muslims choose this barbaric way?"

Find me a better way...then come at me with this feeble line of yours.

We are not electrocuting them, we are not shooting, we are not gassing them, we are not letting them suffer in any way. It is quick, simple and THE most humane way to slaughter an animal. Like Victoria said, do you think the beef you eat just magically chops itself up and appears in markets without someone actually going out there and slaughtering the cow? What world are you living in? Wake up!

"How do you know I do this? I have numerous responsibilities; drinking and chomping pork chops is not one of them. My bringing up the subject and your reaction shows the lack of Muslim tolerance."

I have been on these blogs before and for some time now. I have noticed you mentioning time and time again how you LOOOOOOVE your fine beer. Its okay...you are no longer Muslim...I could care less if you drowned yourself in a bottle of tequila...but just be honest okay?

As for tolerance...what do you want? You want me to say its okay for you to do that? Sure! Go for it! Like I said...you can chug-a-lug a tank of it...I could care less...you are no longer a Muslim.

"Asking questions and questioning beliefs that are absurd is not making fun, it's called having doubt."

You are not the one to judge whose beliefs are absurd and whose are not. If you like Islam...be a Muslim. If you like Christianity...be a Christian. We dont care what you do...just refrain from ridiculing...because then we can do the same to you. We have every right to mock you if you mock us.

To address the rest of your concerns - he wasnt a pedophile, he wasnt a womanizer, he wasnt a murderer. He was none of the above. Your information is wrong...most of all...it seems your mind has been poisoned. Sorry...it really does seem that way.

"Muslims have an attitude problem where they boil over when asked a perfectly legitimate question about the Islamic faith."

You dont ask questions Arif...you accuse. You throw out accusations and want everyone to smile at you like you just won the World Cup! Sorry...better luck next time.

"Though the natural human reaction to sensitive questions is to go up in arms, it is not recommended."

Even though the natural human reaction to sensitive questions is to go up in arms...MUSLIMS are terrorists if they become sensitive. That is your point, RIGHT? Muslims are bad because they react a certain way to a subject that is so near and dear to them. They are being defamed for something a couple of bozos with too much time and money on their hands did and you want them not react?

How would you know anything? You were never a Muslim and you are not a Muslim now Arif. You dont know how it feels to be born here, raised here and looked at like YOU personally blew up the Twin Towers. Why? Because your last name is the same as millions of other Muslims.

Mischka,
Of course it's about me, why not? After all I am being asked to believe. I am NOT required to respect your beliefs however I AM required to respect you and that I do. I never demanded respect from you if I did then I apologize. You are free to call me what ever you wish - even stupid will do, go ahead disrespect AND call me names.

What Abraham did centuries ago is not relevant to me today; I read all about it and don't subscribe to it. I still don't see the relevance in slaughtering millions of animals on Eid for that one incident of an ancient JEWISH prophet. What satisfaction does the Almighty get when Muslims kill animals to celebrate Abrahams sacrificing of his son? All in His name. There are better ways to kill animals for food, why must Muslims choose this barbaric way? I’m sure Daniel Pearl would not have wanted to die that way too, then why would a goat? Our Muslim Terrorist brothers kill Kafirs in front of videos the same way Abraham did, at least someone stopped Abraham.

"This Eid is not about goats or animals...its about honoring what happened that night"

Still I insist we can honor the prophet by being nice to one another or refrain from violence for a day... no Pakistanis blowing up fellow Pakistanis.

"If you think that chugging bear and chomping on ribs is ..."
How do you know I do this? I have numerous responsibilities; drinking and chomping pork chops is not one of them. My bringing up the subject and your reaction shows the lack of Muslim tolerance.

"Why must you make fun of our religion ..."
Asking questions and questioning beliefs that are absurd is not making fun, it's called having doubt. How else can one ask the following questions?
I think Mohammed was a pedophile because he married a child.
I think Mohammed was a murderer because all his wars (baring one) were offensive.
I think Mohammed was a womanizer, among other women that he took; he also coveted his son's wife. What kind of a father asks his son to divorce his wife so that he can marry her!– what a low life.
...and so on.

"Also, if you cannot respectfully ask questions, you have NO right to demand respect from me either."
I hope I made myself clear, I never demanded you respect me at all, if I did, once again, sorry. I can "respectfully" ask the above questions can't I? How else can I put such questions to a Muslim?

Muslims have an attitude problem where they boil over when asked a perfectly legitimate question about the Islamic faith. Though the natural human reaction to sensitive questions is to go up in arms, it is not recommended. Think how much Muslims would have accomplished if they reacted diferently to Harsi Ali, or Salman Rushdi, or the cartoons.

Victoria: I sincerely thank you for your kind reply, I hope you accept my sincere apologies for my crass remarks to you in the past… and I even got your name right this time!

HALOCZEL:

"what do you think on the islamic fasting ?"

I love it...what are you going to do now? I think its the best way to cleanse your soul as well as realize exactly how the poor feel. It makes us more human and helps us be grateful for every morself of food we have. If you cant deal with that...too bad.

"Sweish women,blond and beautiful.
And *they*,black crow in black wrap"

WOW! So, Swedish woman are beautiful because they are blonde! Hal, its plain old stupid to come on these blogs and openly admit to RACISM. I will now dismiss you because I am not speaking to an intelligent individual. I am now speaking to a racist bigot with limited intellect.

I would be okay defeding Islam to you if I was educating a mind that was at least open to that. But what am I supposed to with your inferior mentality on blonde women and black beauty???

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder...if you feel that beauty is only limited to Swedish women because they are blonde...I think Islam is the least of your problems. Your racism would be the biggest. I would suggest you take all the money you have and invest in an education. MAYBE (no guarantees here) that would help.

Mr. Patel:

I believe the three--Muslim, Indian, and American can co-exist quite peacefully in one person.

America and India share this common trait--richness in the diversity of its social diversity. In fact, India is much diverse than America in terms of the sheer number of languages spoken, in the dietary practices of its people and their cultural and religious practices. Amy Chua (Days of Empire) makes the case that historically hyperpowers that had successfully assimilated its diverse populace derived great strength from that which ensured their assent. Conversely, the decline of hypowers started with the inability to assimilate diversity or when they absorbed people who just were not assimable.

The danger of Islam as it is currently practiced in many parts of the world today is its propensity to isolate itself and far from trying to assimilate minorities, persecute them and drive them from their midst. If it continues with its current practices of intolerance towards people of different faiths, the decline of Islam as a major world religion is inevitable. So the truth is assimilate and prosper, isolate and die.

I tried to raise certain critical issues facing Islam on these blogs only to be called as a Muslim-hater, an Islamophobic, etc. If Muslims are unwilling to engage on serious issues facing them, how can they bring reform and change policies for the better?

Dear Victoria,

Do you worry about *human health*,if people eat *pork*.
If you are so sensetive and anxious about human health,what do you think on the islamic fasting ?
You were a nurse as well,that means you,a little,understand *h* of health.Does not *islamic fasting* harm human body ?
What do you advise,suggest to the muslims about fasting ?

Dear Mischka,

By your permission,let me explain *Lazy people*.

Pakistan,islamic country,fourth class country.
Population 160 million,GDP 127 billion USD(nominal).
Netherland,protestant country,fisrt class country.
Population only 17 million,GDP 670 billion USD(nominal)

Bangladesh,islamic country,fourth class country.
Population 150 million,GDP only 65 billion USD(nominal).
Sweden,protestant country,first class country.
Population only 9 million,GDP 384 billion USD(nominal).
Sweish women,blond and beautiful.
And *they*,black crow in black wrap.

Could I help you.

no lib- no pwffts this time

this time it was- are you ready?
a goat

pretty mundane, huh?

arif- im sorry i called your statement hypocritical, and by extension- you.

i guess it must be very frustrating to have your uncle and those you look to for answers call you shaytan for asking questions-

your questions are really valid ones-
and your earnestness and reasons for asking them seem to be an honest search-

ive just gotten used to you attacking islam, seemingly for no real reason-
so i reacted strongly and without consideration

actually, when i was a christian, i used to wonder and ask why christians EAT pork-

a theory was suggested somewhere that many people succumbed to trichinosis in the days before refrigeration

"Trichinosis, also called trichinellosis, or trichiniasis, is a parasitic disease caused by eating raw or undercooked pork and wild game infected with the larvae of a species of roundworm Trichinella spiralis, commonly called the trichina worm. The few cases in the United States are mostly the result of eating undercooked game, bear meat, or home reared pigs. It is most common in the developing world and where pigs are commonly fed raw garbage."

that seems like a sensible 'why' to me.

pigs are also the most intelligent domesticated animal- (thats just my own rationale)

well- i didnt want to add any more to your stress-

its a horrible thing to call an inquisitive young mind shaytan-

i kind of like being accused of being young though-
ive been saying DUDE some 30 years, and i thought it dated me-
do young people still say it?
im in new york now, hardly anyone ever says it

ok- peace arif- sorry for the vehemence of my post....dude

Mischka, Mischka, Mischka,

Hmmm, Prophet Ibrahim/Abraham/Myth/Fortune Teller almost slit the throat of his son as a sacrifice to Allah/God/Jehovah/Mother Nature/Zeus that important night?? But a "pretty wingie talking flying fictional thingie" arrived just in time to save Isaac or was it Ismail from the demons of the demented?? Apparently more Islamic brainwashing to delete!!! Ditto for cleansing the brainwashed neurons of orthodox Christians and Jews!!!

Arif wrote:

"How does "sacrificing" a goat for Allah make me a good person? Why do I need to personally go after the jugular vein of a simple grass eating animal and why should I do it for Allah?"

Arif, its not about YOU. Why dont you understand that? This religion is not about only YOU. Its about the history of our Prophets (pbuh) and our Ummah today. Do you remember the story of Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh)? Do you remember what happened the night that became second Eid for us? Do you remember the ultimate devotion he showed to Allah? This Eid is not about goats or animals...its about honoring what happened that night.

If you think that chugging bear and chomping on ribs is better then us making sure that our animals are only cut in the name of Allah then that is your call! Why must you make fun of our religion JUST because you could not abide by some rules that were actually good for you?

Also, if you cannot respectfully ask questions, you have NO right to demand respect from me either. If you think its okay to ridicule my religion...I think it becomes my responsibility to ridicule you.

"Lazy people don’t have ANY religion...let alone Islam."

They dont - I still stand by that. Your reasons are lame for defaming Islam. You want eat pork and have beer. Thats it? Are you having fun on your spiritual journey...is that what its called nowadays? Who are you kidding here? I was born here and raised here...you dont think I had the opportunity to lie to my parents and have a few beers with my friends? Wrong person to fool Arif.

"Please, if you cannot answer a question then at least refrain from name calling. Also, I refuse to "respect" peoples beliefs, beliefs are to be defended by reason and proofs, if a belief is questioned and I cannot get a rational answer then I have every right to ridicule it."

This statement releases me from having to deal with you in a civil manner. I do not owe you any courtesy because you show none to me. If you refuse to respect my beliefs...then I refuse to respect yours and I have that right! Plain and simple!

"I ask nasty questions to Christians/Hindus/Jews but they NEVER resort to violence or name calling."

I dont remember using any sort of violence here. If you have a bruise on your body that was inflicted by me...post a picture. Otherwise, dont bother.

What is ironic about the Islamic's proper slaughter and eating of animals is that it is simply plagiarized orthodox Judaism i.e. if you have read the OT, you have already read much of the koran.

Another famous quote:

"Mohammed and His Scribes, the Great Plagiarizers"

Mischka,
I am not at all surprised by your response; it is exactly what I am used to. While growing up I asked the same questions to my superiors, uncles, the Maulvie who came daily to my home to teach me. They pretty much gave me the same answers you are giving.
However none called me Lazy and definitely not a lush! They called me a shaytaan!

I'm hardly lazy, I do tons of things a day and last but not least I am still on my spiritual journey. I refuse to believe in things that I feel are stupid and dumb Arab feudal customs of yesteryear. How does "sacrificing" a goat for Allah make me a good person? Why do I need to personally go after the jugular vein of a simple grass eating animal and why should I do it for Allah? I ask these questions and you call me lazy? You tell me pork is bad for me while eating hillal goat is good? What scientific evidence do you have to back this up? Also I know the Muslim myths behind eating pork, do you have some research that backs up your claim you'd perhaps like to share?
A wife-beating alcoholic? for not eating pork and drinking? Where/how did I prompt that response from you? What do you think of the Caucasian neighbor having a beer and barbecuing pork chops for his family? A wife-beating alcoholic? So all the wife beaters of Pakistan/Saudi-Arabia/Iran etc., are pork eaters?

Is my question so hard to answer? I'm genuinely curious; why does Allah need the blood of his own animal? Why do we kill it in his name? Why must a good practicing Muslims only eat animal meat killed by a Muslim; in the right way? Why on Eid millions of animals are slaughtered by Muslims for Allah? To my question about Eid slaughters your response to me is that I eat pork chops? And I have no clue where they come from?
So far the dumbest thing I have heard is; "Lazy people don’t have ANY religion...let alone Islam." Please, if you cannot answer a question then at least refrain from name calling. Also, I refuse to "respect" peoples beliefs, beliefs are to be defended by reason and proofs, if a belief is questioned and I cannot get a rational answer then I have every right to ridicule it. I ask nasty questions to Christians/Hindus/Jews but they NEVER resort to violence or name calling.

Arif writes:

"I really don't care how the slaughter house slaughters animals and brings them to the grocery stores for consumption."

Victoria! Arif doesnt care how his meat is killed or slaughtered. If its mopped on the floor or sprinkled with rat dung is not his problem or his concern. :-)

"What I do care about and am posting about is the need for Mohammedans to slice the neck of a goat/animal and say the tasmiya or Shadada, why does allah need his animal slaughtered in his name?"

Any prejudiced person with an agenda against Muslims will have a problem with how we eat, pray, etc. Of course you will have a problem Arif! You are being asked to give up beer, drugs and pork...how unholy of Islam to tell you to drop all these things that are bad for you to begin with!!! How could we??? Could you ever forgive Islam for hoping that you dont end up a wife-beating alcoholic??? We certainly hope so.

You are lazy and a lush!

How is that Islam's fault that you have NO self-discipline and NO morals??? Islam is not to blame...its you and your poor upbringing along with your obvious lack of knowledge. You dont know what you are doing and you blame Islam for that.

"Why on Eid millions of innocent animals are slaughtered for Allah and his main man? Go to any Muslim country and see the blood on the streets, the flies, the smell of death; Muslims are happy though because Allah has got his wish!"

You think the pork chops you eat are made from veggies??? No pig was oinking its way to its death before you started chomping on its ribs with BBQ sauce right???

You are not Muslim ONLY because you are lazy. Lazy people dont have ANY religion...let alone Islam. They find it a feat to bow their heads in sincere prayer...forget discipline.

well theres the gross hypocrisy arif-

you dont care about how animals are slaughtered, and then go on to paint in detail that exact subject-

so you dont care about how the animals are treated win america, but your overwhelming concern for the animals of muslims rings false-

in the first parpagraph theyre not worthy of your consideration-
in the second papragraph they graduate to 'innocent animals'.

are the american animals guilty somehow, or unworthy for their fate to be considered?

what a stupid excuse you have to defame islam-
and what a hypocritical manner you do it in-

you cannot even keep your points straight-
first you ridiculously asserted that mr patels mother gave him bag lunches becuase they were not willing to "assimilate"

DUDE- im old enough to remeber when schools didnt as a rule have cafeterias- and kids brought bag lunches.

and then you change the subject altogether to cafeterias!

The other reason for Muslims not eating cafeteria food/restaurant food is that a Muslim will NOT eat meat that has been killed by a non-Muslim. It is a requirement in Islam that only a MUSLIM MUST kill the animal in the way prescribed by islam...

since you lack this basic american experience, its not likely you're going to add much to the conversation except more phobic paranoia and anger-

sorry no one educated you, and you were raised in a superstitious village, where blood runs in the streets- but i wasnt.

you dont even seem to know what islamic slaughter or meat requirements are- AND YET YOU APPARENTLY MINDLESSLY DID IT AT ONE POINT-

how unconscious are you?
and why should we believe any of your ill-informed posts?

you're just plain wrong- it is perfectly correct and halal for muslims to eat meat NOT ISLAMICALLY SLAUGHTERED and offered by people of the book-

its one thing that you come in here and spew your hateful nonsense to mislead peple because of your own emotional problems-

its entirely another to spew incorrect superstitions you learned at who knows whose knee!

sorry for your raggedy education, but when you try to construct theories of malice out of it- people need to know that you simply dont have a clue.

and no one in america has seen this either- which is why you would have to TRAVEL to see a slaughterhouse, and why you have no idea where the meat you eat comes from or under what conditions.

I really don't care how the slaughter house slaughters animals and brings them to the grocery stores for consumption. What I do care about and am posting about is the need for Mohammedans to slice the neck of a goat/animal and say the tasmiya or Shadada, why does allah need his animal slaughtered in his name? Why on Eid millions of innocent animals are slaughtered for Allah and his main man? Go to any Muslim country and see the blood on the streets, the flies, the smell of death; Muslims are happy though because Allah has got his wish!

The other reason for Muslims not eating cafeteria food/restaurant food is that a Muslim will NOT eat meat that has been killed by a non-Muslim. It is a requirement in Islam that only a MUSLIM MUST kill the animal in the way prescribed by islam... a sharp knife, a healthy animal, animal must be fully conscious, and a Muslim use the knife to slit the throat of the animal in one swift motion to cut the jugular vein, carotid artery and windpipe (I have done it so I know). The blood of the animal is forbidden: Why? Mohammadan superstitions of course.
The method used by billions of Muslims to slaughter animals is the same method they use to slaughter Kafir air-hostesses’ in mid-air and take control over planes. Is there a correlation to the method of killing? I think yes.
...
AND...
"DUDE! READ ..."

How old is this woman?

arif-
i seriously question your contention that you were ever muslim-

surely (as a muslim) at SOME point you must have read SOME qu'ran?

are you saying your education was so deficient that no one ever informed you, (or you couldnt clearly read it yourself) that if people of the book offer you food it is halal for you?

so your surreptitious enjoyment of "very little turkey" was your own linitation you set upon yourself because you simply didt know your own religious practices.

how crazy!

and eboo's mom sent him with 'home meals' (everyone else calls it a packed lunch in america) because EVERYONE brought lunch from
home!!!

theres a WHOLE INDUSTRY built up around lunchboxes!!!

people nostalgically pay ridiculous amounts of money on ebay for them!

sheesh!

talk about completely misunderstanding this society, and then making crazy judgements based upon your own misunderstanding of both islam, and america!

and i suggest you go to an american slaughtering house

and just what is it you tell yourself when you're enjoying your steak or pork chop?

do you think the american meat industry has large plots of land with happily grazing carefree cows and pigs laying in elysian fields while their calves and piglets cavort and frolic joyously around them?

and then maybe the fairy of death comes after their full and happy lives and lovingly breathes some magic fairy dust on them so they go to sleep peacefully dreaming cow dreams???

and your big complaint is that muslims quickly and mercifully slit the throats of their meat?

DUDE! READ A BOOK! GET A CLUE! BUY A VOWEL!!!!!

Angana in Egypt-

So glad you are free to worship as you desire. Some aren't. Best wishes.

http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7009263953

Egypt Woman Sentenced To Three Years in Prison For "Illegally" Stating she is a Christian:

An Egyptian court has sentenced a woman to three years in prison because her father converted to Islam briefly 45 years ago. Under Egyptian law, religion is passed to children from the father.

Shadia Nagui Ibrahim, 47, a Christian, was charged with fraud for putting Christianity as her religion on her marriage certificate, even though she was unaware that her father's conversion in 1962 had made her officially Muslim.

According to reports, Ibrahim's father left home in 1962 when the woman was only two years-old and converted to Islam.

However, only a few years later he returned to the family after a reconciliation with his wife, moved back in and re-converted to Christianity.

Egyptian law stipulates that a citizen cannot convert away from Islam, so the elder Ibrahim was forced to forge his documents to show he was Christian.

The main problem in the case is that under the law, Muslim women are forbidden to marry a Christian man, and thus Ibrahim was charged with "providing false information on official documents" for stating she was Christian on her 1982 marriage certificate.

She was sentenced previously to three years in absentia in 2000, but those charges were later dropped. When she was detained this August, after a brief court appearance, the judge sentenced her to three years.

Sudha,

I relate to your experience completely--by the time I was in college, it was finally cool to be desi, and desi food was a commodity.

I celebrated Thanksgiving in Egypt this year, where I am living and working now. And like Vivek, I served a Thanksgiving meal with Indian food (Gujarati) but with cranberry pickle instead of mango, to my parents and aunt and uncle who are visiting me this holiday.

Hope everyone here had as nice a Thanksgiving as I did.

In the spirit of the season, I extend the good wishes even those spewing senseless bile.

Sudha,

I relate to your experience completely--by the time I was in college, it was finally cool to be desi, and desi food was a commodity.

I celebrated Thanksgiving in Egypt this year, where I am living and working now. And like Vivek, I served a Thanksgiving meal with Indian food (Gujarati) but with cranberry pickle instead of mango, to my parents and aunt and uncle who are visiting me this holiday.

Hope everyone here had as nice a Thanksgiving as I did.

In the spirit of the season, I extend the good wishes even those spewing senseless bile.

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

I did not insult American Indians since they do eat turkeys and many do live in the forests.

You, however, insulted them by becoming a member of warmongering Islam!!!!!!

Mischka, Mischka, Mischka,

Your rantings about being a "free" Muslim woman are completely vitiated by the experience of most Muslim women as correctly described by Ayaan Hirsi Ali in her book, Infidel.

A summary from the Washington Post review of said book:

"Thus begins the extraordinary story of a woman born into a family of desert nomads, circumcised as a child, educated by radical imams in Kenya and Saudi Arabia, taught to believe that if she uncovered her hair, terrible tragedies would ensue. It's a story that, with a few different twists, really could have led to a wretched life and a lonely death, as her grandmother warned. But instead, Hirsi Ali escaped -- and transformed herself into an internationally renowned spokeswoman for the rights of Muslim women."

What sayest thou "liberated" Mischka about Hirsi Ali's book and experiences??

Mr. Patel,

Once more a great and consice article. Two things:

1. Thanksgiving was established as a special day to give thanks to God. And let's not be silly, yes in the establishment of this day there was the freedom to give thanks to a diety other than the God of the Bible. But, they did have the Judeo/Christian God in mind.

Our founding fathers did set down principles that allow for great religious freedom. But remember the reasons they set those principles were because they were protestants seeking religious freedom from the Church of England. It would have been very difficult for those founding fathers to imagine that one day people who worship what they would have considered to be false gods, claim that they (the founding fathers) had no specific god or religion in mind.

The founding fathers most certainly had in mind that the way one chooses to interpret the Bible and put their biblical faith into practice should be left to the individual. They were not thinking at the time, "let us create a society that is void of all religion". The foinding fathers most definitely had a deep faith in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the father of Christ.

Fortunately for groups outside of Christianity though, more religious freedom than has ever been known has existed in the US. What other reason would it be that while the US is considered to be a Christian nation it is also one of the largest Jewish, Hindu, Muslim, Wiccan, Atheist, etc... nations as well. It is precisly because of the Christian principle that one should choose for themselves what relation if any they will have with God. It is not something to be mandated or regulated. But this principle was firmly rooted in Christian belief and theology.

Not even the "Catholic" nations in Europe could even produce a society with more religious freedom and tolerance. Now those nations in Europe have simply gone from Catholic to secular because the people were never given true choice regarding their faith. The United States was founded on faith in God, why deny that? It is so foolish to forget our past. It is that very past and faith that created the most tolerant and free society ever. Now those who remain tied to that same faith of the founding fathers are repeatedly ridiculed and labeled even here in these forums. Does that make sense?

2. My next point. Mr Patel raise another fascinating question. What makes us N. Americans? We come from so many different cultures and backgrounds how do we define ourselves? Is there anything that makes us unique? In the past those answers would have been so easy, now they are incredibly difficult and debated. We will witness an even greater decline in our country in general if we do not very soon begin to define who we are as a people. We cannot just hurdle forward as a jumbled mix of everyone doing their own thing. While diversity is essential to a society, a society fails to exist if there are no common threads. We seem to not want any common threads anymore. Does that make sense?

Arif,

ACTUALLY, the real reason turkey is not cooked on Thanksgiving for Eastern families is because there arent any dishes prepared using turkey. We eat chicken, beef, goat, lamb, etc. Turkey is just not a popular bird with us, thats all. If you go to Pakistan, you wont find turkeys eaten there but you will find other animals.

And, there are zabiha turkeys available now for families who want to do turkey the American way.

Halozcel

"Second,you critisize *slavery."

Yes, I do.

Dear Mischka,do you have right to blame *slavery* ?"

Yes I do.

"Isnt woman slave in islam ?"

QUITE THE OPPOSITE. I AM A MUSLIM WOMAN...HEAR ME ROAR. I went to college, got my degree, I work, I am married, I dont have to wash his dishes, I dont have to do his ironing, I dont have to cook, I dont have to a single I dont want to do. My parents were married in Pakistan...my mother does not walk behind my father...she walks in front of him. My mother went for her undergrad in Pakistan before getting married under her father's roof and went to graduate school in America with her husband's support. My dad makes the morning tea while my mom makes the eggs. She has friends, she still has a job, she drives, she is a grandmother now (I have a niece) and she has never been oppressed/suppressed, etc. in her entire life. Ill have this notarized if you want.

"Have you already solved *woman slavery* in islam ?"

I dont think you really understand or know enough about Islam to comment on it so I think I would be wasting my time here. Women are not slaves in Islam...women are slaves in the Middle East, East, and all over the world as a matter of fact. However, they are slaves to the culture...not the religion.

"Does woman have right to divorce not husband."

YES SHE DOES...ITS CALLED A KHULA. LIKE I SAID, GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT HAL.

"In islam,man is the *master of woman* isnt he ?"

I JUST ASKED MY HUSBAND IF HE WANTS TO BE MY MASTER...HE SAID NO. YOU WANT TO TALK TO HIM?

"Man *takes*,yes,takes women one,two,three,four(not marriage as present civilized one),and,and,and worse,whenever he likes and wants,yes whenever he likes,he divorces saying *I divorce you*."

Absolutely NOT. Its sad that I have to answer this for you...but for clarification I think I should. In Islam...men are ONLY ALLOWED TO MARRY AGAIN WITH THE FIRST WIFE'S PERMISSION. OTHERWISE THE MARRIAGE IS NOT RECOGNIZED IN THE EYES OF GOD.

Now, the reasons you can marry again have to be very severe. The only reason this institution was put in place was due to alarmingly high number of widows and orphans in Muslim tribes...waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back in the day. Men were allowed to help/assist widows and orphans by marrying them and providing a legitimate family, support, stability, future, etc. Having a solid family structure is a big deal in Islam...both father and mother. IF you choose to marry again, you need permission and it doesnt stop there my dear. You HAVE to give each wife equal amount of time, financial support, space, a home, etc. The same for the children with each wife.

Its humanly impossible to be so just and fair to multiple wives...which is why this institution comes with a multitude of rules and regulations you HAVE to follow IF you choose to go this route.

Like alcohol, this rule does get abused and that is sad. However, Islam is not to blame for this...its the human being.

The REAL reason Muslims have a hard time celebrating Thanksgiving is the food AND its not a Muslim festival whatever else they say is hogwash. Turkey is not Hillal in other words most turkeys are purchased at the grocery store and are harram for the good practicing Muslim. The turkey was not wrestled down and had its throat slit and there was no Allah-hu-akbar and other Koranic gibberish uttered when the bird was killed.

I remember my first Thanksgiving was at my roommates home and they had of course, turkey. I was so scared eating that bird because it was harram and ate very little turkey while indulging in all the other fine foods at the table.

There are only two things left in a Muslims life when he/she sticks to Islam, eating and sex, every other thing is banned. This is precicely why Eboo's parents sent him to school with the home-meal daily. It depends what level the Muslim is, if he is a black-belt then no movies, no TV, no alcohol, no music, no dance, no, no, no. A yellow-belt Muslim may indulge in the above to a certain level and may even have an occasional drink.

I have given up hillal harraam with being a non-Muslim; Thanksgiving for me is first and foremost thanking God (NOT Allah) for me being a NON-Muslim. All the other things that follow are gravy. Along with having the traditional American Thanksgiving food, turkey, corn pudding, cranberry jelly, stuffing, pumpkin pie I indulge in a nice red wine... something good Muslims will only get to taste in jannat (heavin) inshallah! These are great American traditions that should never die or change no matter which failed state/government the immigrant comes from. Immigrants must realize that the prime reason they immigrate is failed idiologies, ecomomies and dreams. If you want curry to be your thanksgiving food then stay in your immigrant pocket, don't demand that others change or accept you with open arms.

Coming and living in America for me means also to try other foods, I love my traditional foods but eat at all and every steak-house my city can offer; every German, Czech, Polish, East-European restraint’s fine sausages, chops and fine beers are there just for the taking as long as you loose your Muslimness or whatever other hang-ups you may have.

I wonder how many “American Muslims” will wrestle goats down and slit their throats for Allah and his messenger this Eid.

really lib you go way too far-
is it necessary to insult native american indians ON THANKSGIVING?

this is a new low, even for you

I hope you mean " view the different parts of my heritage as mutually enriching, and I see America's diversity as a source of strength. As the great American poet Walt Whitman said of himself and his country, "I am large, I contain multitudes" what you said here.

Don't just feel it spread your feelings. Mr. Patel after all you are/ your heritage is from GUJRAT, India from where mostly Patel’s hail.

Do you know that in that state no one can convert into a different faith by choice. One is forced to live in faith he was born in. In that state Biryani cooking muslims were massacred just very recently. Tell your fellow Patel’s and Gujuratis to take pride in there Muslim heritage too. Let me know if you have any luck. Good luck.

Faith is universal and expressed in so many ways.
In this great melting pot all are accepted for the most part. In politics and in media bias there are
divisions made for purposes of power. That is unamerican and mostly dismissed by the population as a whole. Most of us here love and respect liberty,
and that is the reason for thanksgiving, as well as
bounty.

Dear Mischka,

First,you and Dear Victoria misunderstood what I mean for saying *those who failed to built civilization have no right to critisize USA*.The point is not *who is more American or not*.*Those who failed to built civilization* means *muslims*.I mean *muslims have no right to critisize 'high level civilization'*(if you compare USA with Saudi Arabia,Iran,Pakistan,Afghanistan,Libya).

Second,you critisize *slavery*.And,in term of same logic,Dear Mischka,do you have right to blame *slavery* ?
Isnt woman slave in islam ?
Have you already solved *woman slavery* in islam ?
Does woman have right to divorce *her master*(not husband).
In islam,man is the *master of woman* isnt he ?
Man *takes*,yes,takes women one,two,three,four(not marriage as present civilized one),and,and,and worse,whenever he likes and wants,yes whenever he likes,he divorces *his sex slave(s)* saying *I divorce you*.Isnt it *slavery* ?,isnt it *insult* to woman ?,isnt it *humiliation of woman* ?

What is the exact notion of 2.282.
*If the one errs,the other can remind her*.
Can only woman err ? Can not man err ?
*Two women equals one man*,isnt it another insult to woman ?
In that case,do you have right to critisize *slavery* in USA ? Of course,not.
What is the situation of woman in Saudi Arabia,homeland of islam,where sharia laws valid.

Dear Mischka,
Woman in islam is *slave*.
Woman in islam is *second class creature*.
Woman in islam is *half creature*
Woman in islam is *filthy creature*(this may be correct for someones,because most of muslim women take a bath once a month).

Have a good Sunday.

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

The tree tribe of turkey eaters would be very upset with your current support of the hallucinating, womanizing, warmongering illiterate Arab named Mohammed and his warmongering, anti-female followers as exemplified by the Islamic terror and torture theocracy of Iran.

Very strange that you can get comment on anything and everything but the flaws of Islam to include complete silence about The Third Axis of Evil. The Jihadist suffers from the same problems.

"Until the Muslim SOP, the koran, is "deflawed", no one is safe."

Anonymous writes:

"She apparently is unaware of US Laws and does not know about deportation and forced repatriation. Some people don't belong here and in due time they are sent away. I think she better remember that. She has sadly misinterpreted what it is to be an American."

I would beg to differ here with you. I think you may have forgotten what it is to be American...in fact it seems as if you might even be racist. Do you still believe in slavery too? Do you live on a plantation?

Rather then stating the obvious...I would hope that you might have something substantial to contribute to the conversation. Of course, ya HAD to disappoint me! The discussion was about Thanksgiving and turkey...but here we have Anonymous talking about deportation and repatriation. Talk about off the wall and disjointed.

The only entity that has the authority to say who belongs here and who doesnt would be the government. You...fortunately...dont count and dont matter. I think YOU better remember that.

Seriously though...MUST you be so bland?

no lib, not tree dropper- walking tree- it was explained to me that it means one who is walking in harmony with the environment.

being called a member of the tribe was an honor bestowed upon me and i take it quite seriously.

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

Hmmm, land claims? - "except those whose forefathers burst out of the clay of america"- should read "except those whose forefathers/Adams burst/walked away from the trees of Africa 60,000 years ago", i.e. the true land owners. https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/

And we trust you are preparing to move from your current location back to wherever since, as you noted you don't belong here either. And being a volunteer does not qualify you as an original "tree dropper".

ill go one even better anonymous-

ONLY the native americans really have the "RIGHT" to be here-
for the rest of us interlopers and colonists(especially the blue eyed european types like myself) its a PRIVILEGE we have to earn, not just with a birth certificate- but with our blood in battle, our acumen in building communties, our service to society- in leaving this place better than we found it.

so i have to agree- NO ONE really has the right to be here- except those whose forefathers burst out of the clay of america-

and it aint me and im sure it aint you!

personally, it wasnt enough for me to serve the servicemen as a volunteer at disabled american veterans-
i was compelled to teach english and art for 2 years on an indian reservation in california

im an honoary human being and pomo indian- a walking tree and proud of it-

but i had to EARN that priviledge.

what have you dont to earn your priviledge?

pikey

Mishka says

"No one has a right to be here more then anyone else. Remember that."

She apparently is unaware of US Laws and does not know about deportation and forced repatriation. Some people don't belong here and in due time they are sent away. I think she better remember that. She has sadly misinterpreted what it is to be an American.

Victoria -

"i know its about the thanks, but i like food.
im making my stuffing with pumpkin muffins this year because i saw rachel ray do it on food network- and i did an experimental one yesterday and it was awesome!"

If you are Indian or Pakistani like myself, you know that South Asians really dont make turkey. Its not a bird that is commonly used for cooking...at least not that I know of. For us, we usually bake/roast a lot of chickens. This year, we had someone make the turkey for us. Thats a big bird! My mom was scared to mess with it! It was awesome...we did the mashed potatoes, cranberry sauce, etc. But yours sounds even better...I gotta learn some of this very soon...I want to cook the next one.

Halozcel -

"Those who failed to built *civilization* have no right to critisize USA."

Where does this fit into the subject of this post? Is this another attempt on your part to pollute these blogs with your narrow-minded thinking? Learn to appreciate what you have...America is not about only you and what you think. Its about everyone...all of us. No one has a right to be here more then anyone else. Remember that.

Ploughshares -

"Your remarks may seem upbeat and wonderfully American to you, but to this American they are sad. Indians – Muslims, Hindus and Christians – flock to the United States and Britain where they can speak English properly and be perfect little Americans or perfect little Englishmen."

Please stop this attitude. EVERYONE in America was an immigrant at some point. We came from China, India, Pakistan, Hungary, Italy, Belgium, France, Sweden, Nigeria, Zimbabwe, Germany, Portugal, Spain, etc. NONE of us started our lineage on this soil. NONE except for the Native Americans. You dont have the right to say such things to any one. When you ask the average American about their nationality...they say Im a quarter Cuban, a quarter Irish, a quarter German and a quarter Italian. Why? Because none of our roots are here. Why is American the Melting Pot? Its not a reference to the weather...trust me.

Rationalist -

"Believe me, Mr. Eboo Patel, You and You-People's Treacherous Acts can not be forgotten or forgiven, even in this auspicious thanks giving Day. We will behave gentlemanly, we show no misgivings to you, we won't show any violence nor we will express any kind of bad languages when we converse with you. But we all Americans will observe you, all your activities and maintain constant vigilance on you and your community to checkout any kind of terrorist activities or any kind of religious extremism are brewing up inside of Your Community."

Rationalist, its people like you that cause whatever happened in the Big Apple. Ill tell you that right now...you and OBL probably share the same blood and ancestry. It seems like you guys have so much in common. The same blind hatred, the same narrow-minded vision, the same prehistoric views, etc. I bet you probably own a kalashnikov. What exactly do you want? You want all the Muslims to bow down and kiss your feet? You want to play victim? Do you know that Muslims died in the Twin Towers too? Do you know how many Muslims are dying everyday in third world countries not only because of war...but of poverty, famine, hunger, etc. ? Do you know the amount of casualties as a result of this Iraqi war??? Have you looked at those numbers or are you still trying to play victim here in your broken English...proving that you are an immigrant yourself.

Quit your whining rationalist...its beginning to bore me now.

Food variety on Thanksgiving? Sure.

Honesty on Thanksgiving? Priceless!!!!!!

So let us note some honest comments and quotes:

With respect to holiday family disharmony, the Sunnis and Shiites express it violenty 24/7. They need no holiday to express their madness and unhappiness.

"Until the koran is "deflawed", no one is safe."

"Gators vs. Muslims??? Gators definitely will kill. With Muslims, it depends but with the koran as their operating manual can we trust any of them???"

"Thus begins the extraordinary story of a woman born into a family of desert nomads, circumcised as a child, educated by radical imams in Kenya and Saudi Arabia, taught to believe that if she uncovered her hair, terrible tragedies would ensue. It's a story that, with a few different twists, really could have led to a wretched life and a lonely death, as her grandmother warned. But instead, Hirsi Ali escaped -- and transformed herself into an internationally renowned spokeswoman for the rights of Muslim women."

ref: Washington Post review of Ayaan Hirsi Ali's book, Infidel

Eboo Patel,

Your childhood experience was the same as mine. I felt tortured everytime I had to open my lunchbox and reveal the Indian lemonrice to the watching audience of 7th graders. Eventually my parents gave me lunch money to stop my moaning. But in college dorms I found that my moms cooking got raided and a few weeks supply wouldn't last a single day. Now I had to hide it for a different reason. Being accepted is a joyous thing. Multiculturalism is also a joyous thing. Many Americans dont understand that this unity and that idea that anyone with talent can come and chase the American dream is why we are considered to be a great country. But we have to work on it, all Americans together. You unfortunately are on the frontlines trying to make people understand eachother. I admire you for it deeply! Have a wonderful thanksgiving. My husband is a vegetarian but we are still celebrating our first Thanksgiving together with a Turkey dinner. And we invite everyone who is not with their family to celebrate with us. To us the emphasis is on the Giving.

Eboo---Thanks for sharing these thoughts! I greatly enjoyed reading this piece, especially here on Thanksgiving morning! Yours is a voice that is often overshadowed with the constant attention--perhaps obsession--placed on conflict. Your voice is symbolic of the millions who come from other countries, or whose parents come from other countries, and make a new home here in the US. You make it an even more interesting and better place! Happy Thanksgiving!

Dear Eboo patel
You rightfully sited a Quotation of Great American poet Walt Whitman- "I am Large. I contain Multitudes".
That Poetic Vision worked well for Native Americans and foreign Immigrants, and in combination they made America Great, Number One World class. And Americans proved their magnanimity, showed their highest order of benevolence and tolerance and assimilated the immigrants in their growing societies. This integration processes continued without hindrance till 9/11. Here the Green Bucks stopped. Mohamed Ata and his accomplices, who came from your community[ whom you nurtured, provided them all types of sustenance's, and brain washed them, and prepared them to commit a mother of all heinous crimes] and who done the Demolition Job on NY city. NY City is famous for giving shelter to legal and illegal immigrants with open arms. In exchange You -Home grown Fundamentalists have stabbed NY Gentle Giant of His Back?
You should Know that The Big Apple becomes a Big Apple by assimilation of Millions of small apples [Locals + Immigrants], and they together build A CITY, so great that never seen before in our Human History. But since 1995 onwards, some of the rotten migrant apples started making rotten-Apple Pies, and that in turn made Big Apple Sick and the Harmonious atmosphere was seriously vitiated and Your Brand of religious practices and Your Brand of fundamentalism start brewing and frothing and they eventually brought an end result-9/11 [ all know that].
Believe me, Mr. Eboo Patel, You and You-People's Treacherous Acts can not be forgotten or forgiven, even in this auspicious thanks giving Day. We will behave gentlemanly, we show no misgivings to you, we won't show any violence nor we will express any kind of bad languages when we converse with you. But we all Americans will observe you, all your activities and maintain constant vigilance on you and your community to checkout any kind of terrorist activities or any kind of religious extremism are brewing up inside of Your Community.
Again Dear Patel! You and Your people Have lost Nation's trust. To regain it You have to Redeem.

America will be fine as long as Islamists do not take over.

Thanksgiving 2007
It is hard to believe that in only four centuries the few shivering colonists who had braved the harsh elements of a newly discovered continent grew into over 300 million strong. Their descendents are now the citizens of the greatest and wealthiest country that this planet had ever known. That calls now for thanksgiving, yet those few courageous pioneering souls offered thanks to the Almighty even then. In fact it is they who started the tradition. If those early colonists felt the need to give thanks to the little they had then, Americans must not be any less enthusiastic about giving thanks to the bounty they have now.

While most other countries are increasing only in population numbers, enterprising America is actively engaged in increasing its knowledge and harnessing it for the improvement of the quality of life for all humanity. The superficial observer who believes that America’s achievements are only materialistic needs to probe further down toward the core of the values that elevated it from being only rich to further being great. Those values are derived from its work ethic and traditions of democracy, liberty, justice, tolerance and the respect for human dignity.

The people of this country are not only prosperous but they are charitable. Many people around the world criticize them for one thing or another, but everybody envies them. While many countries put walls around them to prevent their people from leaving, the United States of America is being forced to put fences around it to prevent outsiders from trampling it. God blessed America and made it the only superpower because America is good. No one sees that more clearly than those who like me were raised outside its borders. May she always stay good and may the Almighty always bless her.

Kudos to you, Eboo. I understand the difficulties you have experienced as a first generation American. The shame you experienced as you brought different foods for your lunch at school. Living in America is a blessing. This country was built on principles laid out by our American ancestors. Things are not always fair in America, but compared to other regions, we are fortunate to be here. Don't ever be ashamed of your Indian food, it is by far healthier than much of our traditional American fare. I wish we as Americans, could quit separating ourselves from each other. I wish we could find a president with leadership and vision who would help this country remain strong and unified.

What apetizing and enriching words for the Thanksgiving Morning, circa 2007. Can't wait for the biryani - forget the goat pardoning by this President!

You deserve to be nominated as the next Asst. Secretary of HHS in the Obama Administration. There is a precedent - Bobby Jindal.

What is the point of Eboo's article? Under the name of interfaith dialogue, his writings bring out differences amongst us without providing any meaningful insight.
How different is his mother's attitude to cold cut meals from that of his school friends to Indian food?
Thanksgiving is the perfect religious/non-religious festival. Although this tradition was started by Christian pilgrims, there is no underpinnings of a religious story here. The idea is to Thank. Firstly, thank God for all good things in our life. The non-believers can skip this part and still celebrate it by taking part in the second part which is thanking their loved ones. It is purely a time of reflection on the impact of others (human as well as divine) on your life.
Instead of focusing on its real purpose, which makes it a celebration that no religious belief should have problem with, Eboo seems make this article about how the non-Christians are celebrating an essentially Christian holiday in their own separate culinary way. This holoday is not about Food, Eboo.
Celebrate in your own way if you want to, just don't forget to Thank!

I just want to wish everyone back home:

Happy Thanksgiving!

(Stay Safe)

I'm surprised to see this article raise so much bile. Thanksgiving means nothing to me as i don't live in the States, but i understand it is meant to bring people together. The food eaten is irrelevant, surely.

By the way Eboo, swapping delicious real food in your lunchbox for that standard issue plastic is a crime of the highest order.

So Victoria, you still believe that the Arabic god Allah, created by the pedophile and murderer is God?

Your remarks may seem upbeat and wonderfully American to you, but to this American they are sad. Indians – Muslims, Hindus and Christians – flock to the United States and Britain where they can speak English properly and be perfect little Americans or perfect little Englishmen. You see, the Indian emigrant’s attitude seems to be that India is just not good enough. Its languages, apparently in the minds of certain classes of Indians, are inferior to the all-powerful English language that they worship, and India’s peoples in their marvelous diversity are nowhere as spectacular as America’s multicultural society. Now, if you had written you had learned a lesson in America and were going to India to contribute to making India great, then that would have been a message to take notice of.

I would have gladly agreed to be grateful this Thanksgiving had Bush not destroyed my country.

America(USA) will not adapt to *immigrant*,but the immigrants shall adapt to USA.
America will not go back to the *stone age*,but the cavemen shall come to the twentyfirst century.
Americans will not become *creatures*,but the creature shall be *civilized men*(it is not easy work,to me,more difficult than going to the Moon).

In American Civilization,there is no *islam component*,because America based on *two plus two makes four*,but islam rejects this and advocates *two equals one*
America based on Democracy and Human Rights,but islam rejects them.
America based on Freedom,but islam rejects freedom.Fear Book says *you are not free* 33.36
America based on Working and Productivity,but islam is idleness and backwardness.Five times worship in a day,the fasting and visiting the Kaaba(it takes one month to go and come back) make the muslim *idle*.
America,the husband and the provider of world nations,(for example USA gives 5 billion USD *sadaqa*(donation) to Egypt each year),create 13 trillion USD GDP in a year,but all islamic world(1.2 billion men and creatures) create only 2.5 or 3 trilion USD GDP.

Those who failed to built *civilization* have no right to critisize USA.
USA went to the Moon within 200 years.
When will islam land on the Sun(land at night,no problem).

hi ted- did you think victor was victoria?
its an easy mistake, even i did a double take!
yes sir, im still a muslim.

i know its about the thanks, but i like food.
im making my stuffing with pumpkin muffins this year because i saw rachel ray do it on food network- and i did an experimental one yesterday and it was awesome!

apples walnuts onion celery raisins fresh sage (only about 6 big leaves- its powerful stuff) thyme and a little rosemary- o and parlsey- o- and leeks-

turkey stuffed with oranges rosemary and onions (carrot) sweet potato with halal marshmallows-
mashed yukon gold taters (roasted garlic)and gravy of course, corn, crescent rolls (from a can) coleslaw, artichoke heart dip (im proud to say it made it to the pbs cookbook as victorias hearts forgive my bragging)
homemade pumpkin pie and of course, cranberry sauce in a can NO BERRIES- just the gelatinous roll cut in slices and cut with interesting cookie cutter shapes-

im having some people over who've never had an american thanksgiving so i wanted it to be 50s style americana

by the way, turkeys are really really dumb-
they wander into my dads yard all the time and drive him nuts.

i told my husband i want to go to a restaurant next year- it would have been unimaginable to me a few short years ago, and i felt sorry for the people in them- i must be getting old!!!

peace all
and of course, thanks to the god from whom all these blessings are flowing

http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/speeches/thanks.htm

Just for the record, the original Thanksgiving meal probably included clams and lobster, wild venison, wild turkey and other wild fowl, corn meal or mush, maybe some peas or wild greens. They didn't have pumpkin pie or cranberry sauce as they had no sugar except maybe a little maple syrup and no butter with which to make pastry. These traditions all came much later, so get off your high horse, all you American traditionalists. It's about gratitude, and giving back, not the Norman Rockwell menu.

I wish I had someone to pack me a nice homemade Indian lunch every day-now that would be something for which to be grateful!

Terrence:
"An integral part of being a true American is accepting the Thanksgiving myth. Stay in India if you do not want to be Americans"

Terrence, with your attitude your job will outsourced to India or China. Only thing you will be left with will be myth of your superior attitude. Wake up... world is 'flat' now.

Mr Patel:

As you appear to understand the meal is not important; the emphasis should be on the THANKS to God for the blessings HE has given this country and its people of all faiths. Happy Thanksgiving

Mischka- Hold still for a minute while I slap that huge chip off your shoulder.

And everyone else- as you share the wonderful variety of foods you will be enjoying tomorrow: please remember in your thoughts and prayers the people of Bangladesh who suffer loss and want.

good comments. I am having a few people over and will be cooking (North) Indian food, served with a dollop of gratitude and mango pickle ;-)

Now the ignorant Christian extremists like DnMn want to hijack Thanksgiving, too, telling us what we should believe, how we should celebrate it and what we should eat. Like the Pilgrims left England to be free from religious intolerance, I left the theocracy that is now America for the same reason.

Happy Thanksgiving anyway. It's a great tradition that I will be celebrating fully (well maybe without the gravy - it's hard to find where I live unless you go to KFC)

DnMn:

"Yes, Eboo, let's ruin Thanksgiving by turning it into anything anyone wants it to be. Let's each pick our own day to celebrate, too."

Why do you have a problem with the way Americans choose to celebrate their Thanksgiving? Why are you trying to take away their right as citizens of this country to do as they choose? Christmas is not celebrated uniformly across the country or the world. Why would this be? What would you accomplish by making everyone do only what you think is right? When the Pilgrims came here...they were not dressed as we are today. Isnt that a violation of the sacred tradition of Thanksgiving? Why dont we all dress up like the Pilgrims too then?

"If you don't know who you're giving thanks to, or why, well, there's no real Thanksgiving."

The reason behind that is: there are atheists out there as well.

Think before you post.

I will give thanks this day in the company of a wounded veteran of a forgotten war and we will feast upon a 3# moose roast. He has no religious beliefs, but I have more than enough for both of us. It will be roasted with chicken broth, garlic, and onions @ 325deg. for 3 hours.

God bless the food we will eat.

Further on you will see a post by Miranda in which she explains the proclamation by President Washington establishing a day of Thanksgiving to God for our blessings. The president did not say this was a Christian God. We are, after all, a nation of many religions. Remember, that's why the Pilgrims came here. So no matter what someone eats on Thanksgiving Day, please, just let them be to give thanks in whatever manner they wish. This is still America. In ones own home one ought to be able to observe our customs or theirs in whatever manner they choose. Are you ready to declare the Bar Mizpah illegal? - for goodness sake! Get over it.

Yes, Eboo, let's ruin Thanksgiving by turning it into anything anyone wants it to be. Let's each pick our own day to celebrate, too. (I know you wouldn't criticize anyone who chose to celebrate on, say, the third Monday of October, if that's what they wish to do.) Let's have a zillion different customs until there's nothing left to share with people who are different from us. This doesn't foster diversity; what it fosters is a society in which everyone retreats to their own customs in their own corners, to celebrate only with people who are exactly like them. Last year, Jim Brickman did a series of "thoughts" on the radio around the holidays, which brought Thanksgiving to a new, banal low. He said: Give thanks. It doesn't matter to whom, or if you give thanks to anyone. "Just give thanks." If you don't know who you're giving thanks to, or why, well, there's no real Thanksgiving.

I am very grateful to here a message of gratitude for the diversity of culture -- something I don't here often enough these days. Having grown up on white bread and cold cuts in my lunches, I think our nation's cuisine has vastly improved since we started getting some diversity in our country. This year our turkey will be stuffed with cornbread, chorizo and cilantro instead of bread crumbs and sage.

It seems Eboo and most of the posters here are enjoying a "make it up as you go" Thanksgiving. But Thanksgiving Day in America has a history:

"The proclamation by President Washington in 1789, was a recommendation of a resolution established by both Houses of Congress establishing the first national Thanksgiving Day on November 26, 1789.

The reason for establishing Thanksgiving was "to recommend to the people of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer, to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many and signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness. Now therefore I do recommend and assign Thursday the 26th day of November next to be devoted by the People of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being, who is the beneficent Author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be--That we may then all unite in rendering unto Him our sincere and humble thanks--for His kind care and protection of the People of this Country previous to their becoming a Nation--for the signal and manifold mercies, and the favorable interpositions of His Providence which we experienced in the tranquillity, union, and plenty, which we have since enjoyed--for the peaceable and rational manner, in which we have been enabled to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national One now lately instituted--for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed; and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge; and in general for all the great and various favors which He hath been pleased to confer upon us."

(signed) G. Washington, The Massachusetts Sentinel, Wednesday, October 14, 1789.

Victoria

Still a Muslim?

What a bunch of baloney (we are on a food theme here)--Biryani is "muslim cuisine"? You see I am Indian too and I got the impression that Biryanis were popularized by the Mughals who BTW, were not muslim when they invaded...sorry 'came' to India.

But more than the gastronomic inaccuracies, what troubles me about young Eboo is his and his Ummah friends' tendency to infuse religion into everything. So do we have Protestant white bread, puritan turkeys, christian brownies (no allusion to Bobby Jindal here), Buddhist noodles...and you think this is gonna further 'interfaith' understanding?

Eboo dearest, Biryani is Indian cuisine just like you are/were Indian Muslim. Want true understanding instead of insulting non-believer intelligence? --here's a tip: leave the "interfaith" stuff out of food (shelter and clothing would be bonus points) and we can have true thanks to give.

We are all irrevocably committed to the Westphalian state model. Try a secular pizza (pepperoni and sausage)-it will free you.

Dry curry and semi-cooked rice heated in a microwave covered takes only 5 minutes to cretae a biryani. Tastes better than the biryani tradional hours to cook. Top it with fried onions and nuts, superb.

Pay no mind to closed-minded Terrence. If you have a problem with someone having biryani on Thanksgiving instead of turkey, you have a MUCH bigger problem than someone having biryani on Thanksgiving instead of turkey.

I really like the idea of different expressions of shared values. It seems like such a simple concept, but unfortunately, there are people who have been inculcated with the idea that the core feature of being American is suppressing individuality. Individual expressions of core values are what make the United States a vivid and interesting place.

This Thanksgiving, I am grateful for the rich traditions that immigrants--and the Pilgrims were also immigrants, lest the more closed-minded among us forget--have brought to this country.

How appropiate!!! Thanks for the funny article. My daughter was born in USA, her father is from Finland and her mom(me)from Venezuela. We are having ham because we don't like turkey and like you said we are making a celebration in our own way...

"That is what is wrong with multiculturalism-people come but do not accept. An integral part of being a true American is accepting the Thanksgiving myth."

FIRST OF ALL - MULTICULTURALISM-PEOPLE is not a word. That made no sense.

Second - What???????? Being an American is all about the turkey? America is a big old melting pot...what does that mean? It means America is a mixture of cultures. He can cook a turkey with curry if he wants or throw it out the window if he wants. The idea behind Thanksgiving is not about eating a turkey!

How shallow are you??????????

Its about showing gratitude and sharing that with your loved ones.

You clearly do not accept America. In your mind America must accept you. That is what is wrong with multiculturalism-people come but do not accept. An integral part of being a true American is accepting the Thanksgiving myth. Stay in India if you do not want to be Americans.

You clearly do not accept America. In your mind America must accept you. That is what is wrong with multiculturalism-people come but do not accept. An integral part of being a true American is accepting the Thanksgiving myth. Stay in India if you do not want to be Americans.

Funny how much things can change in such a short time. Any of the non-Indian kids I know would be totally thrilled to get samosas in their lunchbox! Cold cuts on white bread... ick. (the brownie, on the other hand, is another story.)

Mr. Patel, there is probably not a single culture on the planet that does not offer thanks, on some day, to some thing or someone, for what they have received. At different times of the season, with different languages, with different customs, and with different expressions of celebration. and most enjoyably, with different foods!

If you celebrate tomorrow, by all means, enjoy your biryani, with goat or lamb or kid or mutton and with all its various adornments. And most of all, enjoy those you share it with, from every culture which touches you!

I had the displeasure of attending an ishtar at a Sudanese Colonel's house in Khartoum many years ago . To this day I enjoy sharing the story of my introduction to Kissra which was as disgusting a food as I have ever encountered anywhere else in the Middle East or elsewhere in Africa . It was almost as disgusting as the Colonel's after dinner conversation when he recounted the massacre he commanded in the southern Sudan . It explained to me and my siblings why my mother gave us anti-spasmodics before we left for dinner. The Gazelle Chops on the other hand were really good.

turkey biryani!?! Great idea!!

ASSIMILATE

to bring into conformity with the customs, attitudes, etc., of a group or nation; adapt or adjust: to be or become absorbed.

DISSIMILATE

to lack similarity: to be something dissimilar, or become dissimilar.

BTW- Eboo misquotes Walt Whitman. It is:

"Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)"

from Whitman's self-absorbed paean of narcissism- SONG OF MYSELF.