hilib, what do you recommend in particular?
(as far as literature from the panelists here)

CCNL -

You used to be funny - now you are just plain annoying.

Go wash your dentures or something.

Mischka, Mischka, Mischka,

We are sending added "pwtfft"s to help you in your hour of need.

CCNL -

I have no desire to be a bigot

Good Luck

Mischka, Mischka, Mischka,

Hopefully you have access to the writings and thoughts of contemporary religious exegetes, many of them are On Faith panelists. I recommend reading some of their books in your pursuit of knowledge. E. Favorite and many others to include myself are continuing our pursuit and you now have the benefit of our many conclusions i.e. we have done the work for you.

Apparently you are not willing to accept said reviews and conclusions at the moment, but as you get older and more mature, it will all become clear as you finally conquer your koranic brainwashing.

CCNL -

""pretty wingie talking, flying fictional thingies" and demons of the demented,"

The benefits of retirement: lots of drugs and time.

:-)

CCNL -

""pretty wingie talking, flying fictional thingies" and demons of the demented,"

The benefits of retirement: lots of drugs and time.

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

So now we have you thinking about "pretty wingie talking, flying fictional thingies" and demons of the demented, we can address a major part of your Five Step deprogramming i.e.

Your required belief in the existence of angels."

A major item for neuron deletion. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ugly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented.

Contemporary biblical and religious scholars have relegated these "pretty/ugly wingie thingies" to the myth pile. You need to do the same to include deleting all references to them in your religious operating manual, i.e. the koran.

Some added references to "tinker bells".

"Latter-day Saints also believe that Michael the Archangel was Adam (the first man) when he was mortal, and Gabriel lived on the earth as Noah."

Apparently hallucinations did not stop with Joe Smith.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07049c.htm
"This belief in guardian angels can be traced throughout all antiquity; pagans, like Menander and Plutarch (cf. Euseb., "Praep. Evang.", xii), and Neo-Platonists, like Plotinus, held it. It was also the belief of the Babylonians and Assyrians, as their monuments testify, for a figure of a guardian angel now in the British Museum once decorated an Assyrian palace, and might well serve for a modern representation; while Nabopolassar, father of Nebuchadnezzar the Great, says: "He (Marduk) sent a tutelary deity (cherub) of grace to go at my side; in everything that I did, he made my work to succeed."

Catholic monks and Dark Age theologians also did their share of hallucinating:

"TUBUAS-A member of the group of angels who were removed from the ranks of officially recognized celestial hierarchy in 745 by a council in Rome under Pope Zachary. He was joined by Uriel, Adimus, Sabaoth, Simiel, and Raguel."

And tinker bells go way, way back:

"In Zoroastrianism there are different angel like creatures. For example each person has a guardian angel caled Fravashi. They patronize human being and other creatures and also manifest god’s energy. Also, the Amesha Spentas have often been regarded as angels, but they don't convey messages, but are rather emanations of Ahura Mazda ("Wise Lord", God); they appear in an abstract fashion in the religious thought of Zarathustra and then later (during the Achaemenid period of Zoroastrianism) became personalized, associated with an aspect of the divine creation (fire, plants, water...)."

"The beginnings of the biblical belief in angels must be sought in very early folklore. The gods of the Hittites and Canaanites had their supernatural messengers, and parallels to the Old Testament stories of angels are found in Near Eastern literature. "

"The 'Magic Papyri' contain many spells to secure just such help and protection of angels. From magic traditions arose the concept of the guardian angel. "

For added information see the review at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel

yes lib- i believe i angels- and demons-

i wasnt thinking too much about them one way or the other (recently)

how did you not know the answer to that?
ive told you that before.

CCNL is losing it.

Mischka, Mischka, Mischka,

So very unIslamic of you!! Or is it?? Your rhetoric is very indicative of the need for some serious deprogramming.

CCNL -

Lets get one thing straight - you are not educated. IF you are - you're an insult to the institutions that have granted you an education! What have you done to yourself?!

Second, I guess it makes sense now. Its just as bad as a hermit living in some dirty apartment.

I am now speaking to a retired, delusional, senile 80-something-years-old fart who has lost touch with reality and is pumped up on medication. SO MUCH BETTER!

Dont waste my time old man. If you change your mind about your last days on earth - let us know. We will point you in the right direction.

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria, Mischka, Mischka, Mischka,

And as usual, you "duck" the issues so let us ask again without all the "aka"s. Starting with the basics, do you believe in angels and their ugly counterparts "the demons of the demented"???????

And no I am not a hermit living in some dirty apartment. I could say I live Dubai and make billions in Islamic oil blood/terror profits as a Christian oil dealer but actually I live in the lovely, now "Autumnized" USA, protector of the basic freedoms of speech and religion. And I am retired with two advanced degrees with a large loving family. My greatest wish is to bring all sufferers of the three B's no matter what religion into the realm of historic reality. Are you two ready for your escape to that reality?? If not, I will persist in my quest.

Walaikum Assalam Victoria

How are you doing?

I found CCNL's posts on different blogs all over this website. He/she/it has no life!

He is annoying...like that fly that you might find in your house that you just cant seem to get rid of.

I bet you he is one of those wierd little hermits in a dirty apartment with no one to talk to.

hi lib-
a salaamu alaikum mischka-

lib is maddening isnt he?
he LIKES to be maddening

lib theres a difference between repitition and redundancy, (and somewhat lacking in imagination) but you do what you must

youre repetitive posts about tinkerbell have inspired me-
i got some tinkerbell stickers and stuck them all over the place-

it seems you are actually propogating tinkerbell awareness- as opposed to diminishing it

i hadnt even THOUGHT of tinkerbell in years

thanks for the reminder lib

CCNL -

"Repetition is one of the many principles of teaching and education. And as concerned global citizens, it is imperative that we educate you about the flaws in your warmongering religion."

Not even an iota of Islam demands violence. So, these "claims" that you make about Islam being warmongering - are false. Can you read CCNL??? READ THE FOLLOWING: YOU ARE LYING.

Concerned global citizens do not act like you. I doubt you even know what those two words mean. You cannot be considered a global citizen. You can be considered something else but not a global citizen.

Also - from every single post that you make I can gather one thing: you do not have an education and therefore cannot teach.

Ignorance does that. It makes you look bitter and well...ignorant.

"Let us start with something that you can understand i.e. angels aka "pretty wingie talking flying fictional thingies" aka tinker bells aka fairies. Do you believe in them as demanded by Islam??"

Let me start with something YOU might be able to understand since this is all so new to you. Islam does NOT demand that I believe in fairies or tinker bells. Another bold faced lie! Whats with you?

"pretty wingie talking flying fictional thingies"

DO YOU REALIZE THAT YOU POST THE SAME THING AT LEAST FIVE TIMES A DAY ON DIFFERENT BLOGS???

PLEASE tell me you are not one of those nerdy hermits that lives in a ratty apartment with no friends...or are you?

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

Repetition is one of the many principles of teaching and education. And as concerned global citizens, it is imperative that we educate you about the flaws in your warmongering religion.

In that light,

Let us start with something that you can understand i.e. angels aka "pretty wingie talking flying fictional thingies" aka tinker bells aka fairies. Do you believe in them as demanded by Islam??

ill say one thing lib you ARE relentless

dont worry mischka- its been a year and lib still posts the same ones he did a year ago

Mischka, Mischka, Mischka,

Let us start with something that you might be able to understand i.e. angels aka "pretty wingie talking flying fictional thingies" aka tinker bells aka fairies. Do you believe in them as demanded by your warmongering religion??

CCNL -

I hate repeating myself.

You love repeating yourself and I have no desire to get a headache reading your repetitive nonsense.

You must have a file devoted specifically and only for Muslims. Do you sit up late at night typing all of this so you can use it later?

NOTHING you say below makes ANY SENSE.

Mischka, Mischka, Mischka,

Again, I have never heard of Merla or Merla's blog!!!

And it very obvious that your teachers skipped the militaristic and anti-female passages of your book of death, aka the koran.

Again, warmongering Islam is based on a "pretty wingy talking flying fictional thingie" named Gabriel. Without "old Gabriel" there would be no Islam.

And the Five Step Program for purifying your neurons of your warmongering religion has only been posted on this blog. Once again, review, peruse and give a copy to your local cleric/iman for distribution at your mosque:

Using "The 77 Branches of Islamic "faith" a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi as a starting point. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true "faith" (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.

"1. Belief in Allah"

"aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc." should be added to the your brainwashed neurons.

"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."

Really???? Evolution and the Big Bang or the "Gib Gnab" (when the universe starts to recycle) is more plausible and the "akas" for Allah should be included if you continue to be a "creationist".

"3. To believe in the existence of angels."

A major item for neuron deletion. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ugly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented.

"4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."

Another major item to delete. There are no books written in the spirit state of Heaven (if there is one) just as there are no angels to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.

Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the uneducated masses in line. Today we call them fortune tellers.

Prophecies are also invalidated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.

"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone."

Mohammed spent thirty days fasting in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a neuron deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic violence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallucinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.

CCNL -

Remember, you only attack women. Merve is a woman. And I am sure you know exactly what I refer to.

"And what don't you understand about the flaws i.e. ills in the founders and foundations of warmongering Islam"

I understand everything about Islam - I also know that there are no flaws in the foundations of it. Absolutely none. It has never and will never endorse violence. Islam does not support violence.

Stop reading conspiracy theories on the internet.

Copying and pasting the same thing again and again on different blogs does not prove your point!!!

"Ready for those Five Steps to Deprogram twenty plus years of Islamic brainwashing???"

CCNL - I yawned at the end of your post. That says something...your argument is nonsensical and has no weight to it. If you are going through all the trouble of making things up - at least make them interesting!

Mischka,

Merve Kavaki's blog????? Never heard of Merve or his blog.

And what don't you understand about the flaws i.e. ills in the founders and foundations of warmongering Islam?

Once again:

Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, warmongering, hallucinating Arab who also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic train bombers in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani koranics, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino koranics.

And who funds these acts of terror? The Islamic Shiite terror theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

Ready for those Five Steps to Deprogram twenty plus years of Islamic brainwashing???

And take a moment to consider that Islam is solely dependent on the hallucinations of a starving Arab some 1400 years ago. How very, very disturbing that so many people have and are suffering from what was a complete fabrication!!!!

CCNL -

"Fellow Sufferers of the Three B's."

Please do me a favor CCNL - quit the idiot talk. The whole point of discussion is to communicate and if you cant do so in an effective manner - dont do it.

"Continued attempts to deflect the ills of Islam does and will not work."

The above is a false statement - no doubt conjured up by CCNL and his overactive imagination - there is no ill in Islam.

"Abusive behavior is the conduct of members of your warmongering religion that is based on the abuses and lies in the founders and foundations of your religion."

Again - another false statement. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the foundation of Islam or religion itself. However, there are people that abuse the name of Islam like terrorists and CCNL.

"Pointing out the truth is not, I repeat, not abusive behavior."

There is no truth in what you say and that is the flaw in your theories. Since your only strong suit is name calling - what you do IS abusive.

"And it is unfortunate that your commenting clerics and imans refuse to address the issues. Again they also fear Islamic death squads."

Actually - they have addressed you repeatedly. I also did as well. I have seen your post below numerous times and its beginning to bore me now. You pretend as if no one has answered your questions when its the opposite. If you choose to be blind that is your call. There is NO such thing as an Islamic death squad.

"And there are other male? Islamic commentators e.g. Somilian and Amed from Bahrain who I have taken to task for not addressing said ills of your religion."

You have done no such thing. This is an absolutely ridiculous claim. In fact, I found you on Merve Kavaki's blog as well. You are scared of men. CCNL - the only thing you do is play the name game. You call Islam names...thats it. Anyone can do that. You have no substance, no reality, no truth, no support and absolutely no guts. You run after the women because you feel it might be easier - sorry it isnt.

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria, Mischka, Mischka, Mischka, Mischka, And Fellow Sufferers of the Three B's.

Continued attempts to deflect the ills of Islam does and will not work.

Abusive behavior is the conduct of members of your warmongering religion that is based on the abuses and lies in the founders and foundations of your religion. Pointing out the truth is not, I repeat, not abusive behavior. And it is unfortunate that your commenting clerics and imans refuse to address the issues. Again they also fear Islamic death squads. And there are other male? Islamic commentators e.g. Somilian and Amed from Bahrain who I have taken to task for not addressing said ills of your religion.

Once again the truth of it all:

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was probably a mythical character. If he was real, he was at best a combination of at least three men. 1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT. http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

3. Mohammed, an illiterate, womanizing, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic train bombers in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani koranics, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino koranics.

And who funds these acts of terror? The Islamic Shiite terror theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

4. Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy talking flying fictional thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

5. Hinduism (from an online Hindu site)- "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centered and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’"
The caste/laborer system and cow worship are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."

"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life.

Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations, embellishments, lies and myths surrounding the founders of said rules of life.

And Mischka you have just received a better religious education in five minutes than you have in the last twenty years. Glad to be of service!!!

CCNL -

"Fear of Islamic death squads????"

Absolutely NOT. The reason why I havent commented on these so called flaws is because - I dont believe there are any. I dont think there is anything wrong with my religion. I know what it has taught and given me - I am better off now then any of the non-Muslims that I went to grade school or even high school with.

I hate to say this but I dont see many non-Muslims happy in their lives, work, relationships, etc. Why? Why is it okay for your children to have sex at a young age? Why is it okay to drink? Why is it okay to disrespect your parents? Why is it okay to disrespect elders at all? Why is it okay not to better yourself? Why is it acceptable to get pregnant at a young age? Why is it okay to have children out of wedlock? Why would you want to raise a child without mom AND dad? Why are your children out of control? Where is your family structure? Is it even there anymore? Why is this lifestyle okay for you? Going to church once a week is obviously not the answer.

How many Muslims do you see in court arguing over the paternity of a child? How many Muslims get divorced? How many Muslims shove their parents into nursing homes?

Why are more and more things ALRIGHT now? The reason why people think Islam is so strict is because it refuses to allow us to become sloppy. Drugs, alcohol, teenage sex, etc IS WRONG. It will always be wrong. Blurring the lines between right and wrong does not make things "okay". It just helps you sleep better at night.

CCNL - you might find this shocking but Islam is not even half as violent as you think it is. I have never read anything in my entire life that has told me to go and strike another human being. Not once.

You want to believe everything the media throws at you? Be my guest! They love you. Fools like you are their bread and butter.

Youve proven our point lib-

you only address panelists who, to date, dont really repsond to these posts

they start conversations and let them progress

actually the only panelist ive seen here who ever responded was imam pamlea k. taylor

(once starbuck did, but only to respond to a deep deep question with "i like cookies'.)

but you never address muslim men in your bellicose manner

pretty telling id say

if you were doing this in person , it would be considered abusive behavior

Poor, poor Mischka, she just cannot let go of those very, very, very, very childish "pwtfft"s aka tinker bells and sometime fairies" (and her warmongering terror religion). Again her recent commentary simply proves the point. (note the correct emphasis on "childish"!!!!)

And note she and Victoria and The Jihadist and the Islamic male commentators Eboo Patel and Esposito and Gomaa and Fadlallah and Khan and Siddiqi and Ahmad and Ahmed and Khatami have been requested time and time again to comment on the flaws in the founders and foundations of Islam but have ever done so!!!!!! Fear of Islamic death squads???? Absolutely!!!!

CCNL -

"The conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic train bombers in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani koranics, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino koranics."

I have seen this before and addressed it. I dont like to repeat myself so why dont you come up with something a little...new? Didnt I say interesting too?

And I agree with Victoria - you never have the nerve to argue with a guy. Its always women. Inferiority complex?

Dont believe everything you think.

"Poor, poor Mischka, she just cannot let go of those childish "pwtfft"s aka tinker bells and sometime fairies" (and her warmongering terror religion). Again her recent commentary simply proves the point."

And evidence of her warmongering religion:

The conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic train bombers in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani koranics, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino koranics.

And who funds these acts of warmongering and terror? The Islamic Shiite terror theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

q

q

CCNL writes:

"Poor, poor Mischka, she just cannot let go of those "pwtfft"s aka tinker bells and sometime fairies" (and her warmongering religion). Her recent commentary simply proves the point."

Did you eat an extra bowl of stupid this morning? Just wondering.

Also - I notice that everytime you write you use the word warmongering. As if its true. If you want to be taken seriously - why dont you start off by being mature? It helps!

"And as with all Islamic male and female commentators on this blog, we offer without discrimination our Five Point "PWTFFT"/Warmongering Deprogramming Method at no charge."

SSSSSHHHHHH! Thats the sound of nobody caring what you think!

Sorry - I couldnt help it. Next time I want you to try saying something interesting.

actually lib- no you havent-not here anyway-
but mr patel is a panelist

i can not remember ever seeing you engage, personally , a male muslim whomight answer you.

its just something ive noticed-

so prove me wrong then-

ill be interested to see this- go dog some of the men for awhile-

for instance- you know no matter how insulting to me you get- ill never call you a name or get aggressive-

go pick on the men
and peace lib

and still
no cookies for you

"Poor, poor Mischka, she just cannot let go of those "pwtfft"s aka tinker bells and sometime fairies" (and her warmongering religion). Her recent commentary simply proves the point.

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

Hmmm, last time I looked Eboo Patel was male unfortunately, however, a male Bred, Born and Brainwashed in warmongering Islam. And if you check Eboo's other comments, you will note that I routinely take him to task for deflecting the flaws in the foundations of Islam by always noting the flaws in other religions or followers of said religions.

And as with all Islamic male and female commentators on this blog, we offer without discrimination our Five Point "PWTFFT"/Warmongering Deprogramming Method at no charge.

aww lib- have you tired of needling me for a year without the desired erupting rage you seem to think dwells under the civil veneer of all muslims?

(today is the year anniversary of this blog)

now you're trying to goad mischka so you can get your 'aha! i KNEW you muslims were out of control!" moment?

its not working out quite as you'd planned, is it?

but tell me one thing lib-

why is it only the WOMEN you go after?

ive noticed you never have diddly boo to say to any men.

interesting

It is absolutely Futile in entering "Ping-pong" arguments.
However I feel right and my prerogative [duty] to expose a religious practice that actually highly detrimental to those who are practicing it, and others who - observing it. On the whole Our human civilization's progress in 21st. Century's been thwarted. This condition shouldn't be allowed to continue & thrive.
to days revelation:-
Definition of Female Circumcision= Female Genital Mutilation. Human right Group. London office. www.registrar.co.uk
Further Elaboration of the definition of FGM-
Is Female Circumcision and female genital cutting. This is a painful surgical procedure is performed without General Anaesthesia. About 100 to 140 million Muslim women- who had been circumcised. Therefore average one in nine girls- in a minute continued to be mutilated.
According to British medical Association and Described in BMJ-> FGM- is far more invasive procedure, like- Cutting Labia minor and Clitoris- that cover Vaginal opening.
I like to pay attention- what Muslim Women's league [ an well recognized Official Concern], what they are saying?
""Those who Advocate for FGM from an Islamic perspective- commonly Quote the following-
Hadith to argue that it is REQUIRED act of the SUNNAH or Tradition of Prophet:-
" UM ATIYYAT AL- ANSARIYYAT- Said ""The Prophet Said to her ** Do not Cut too severely as that is better for Women and desirable for a Husband**" "".
These Diabolical and inhuman practices are still carried out and continued today in Egypt, Saudi, and other North African countries.

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

Wow, the Islamic "wishy-wash" is flowing this evening!!!!!!

With all these meetings, were the flaws in the founders and foundations of your warmongering religion discussed??

Mischka,

Your weak defense of your warmongering religion only supports the need for the Five Step Deprogramming. How goes it??

And your critique of the Islamic terror theocracy of Iran?? Up to page ten yet???

It is good for both Muslims and Westerners that Islam exists in the West so that Westerners can deal first hand with this religion, without any mediation. However, there are some people who argue that it is not permissible to reside in such countries (which they consider to be lands of disbelief), nor is it permissible to obtain any of their nationalities because this is a major sin.

More than ten years ago, a juristic scientific symposium was held in France. A number of scholars attended[1] and I had the honor to participate in it. The issues that were discussed included residing in Western countries and obtaining Western nationalities; the majority of participants viewed that this is permissible if the required conditions are met[2]. They also agreed that this conforms with the international nature of the Islamic message along with the fact that the world is becoming closer and closer so that it is now like a global village. This also corresponds to the endeavor of reasonable Westerners and Muslims who try to achieve mutual understanding and approximation, along with the removal of disaffection, and getting rid of historical residue, while working to establish mutual coexistence based on tolerance not fanaticism, acquaintance not disregard, dialogue not conflict, and cooperation not argumentation.

Thanks to Allah the Almighty, the existence of Islam in the West went through certain Divine preparations and natural causes that facilitated its continuation without the need of planning or arrangements by Muslims. That is why we should work so that the existence of Islam can be a means of association between Muslims and Westerners so that we can communicate with each other and remove the misconceptions inculcated in the minds of some of them. This can also refute any doubts that may be raised.

This has always been part of the mission of the European Council for Fatwa and Research since it was established, through its fatwas, recommendations, and statements where it advises Muslims in the West to be an effective dutiful minority serving its communities and never isolates itself from them. This is clear for whoever reads the Council’s fatwas, decisions, recommendations and statements that were issued during the sessions it held.

I replied to some scholars and preachers who have an inflexible stance and reject the existence of Islam in the West and any other country where non-Muslims live; in the East or in the West, whether or not they belong to People of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) or idol-worshipers. I highlighted an important point: the existence of Islam in many minorities is an original phenomenon, meaning there are native residents of the countries in question who are not temporary residents. For example, this applies to the Muslim minorities in India, China, Thailand, and other Asian countries, as well as many Muslim minorities in a number of African countries.

In this age, I believe it is necessary for Islam to exist in those communities that affect world policy. Accordingly, the existence of Islam is necessary in Europe, the two Americas, and Australia due to a number of aspects:

It is necessary to convey the message of Islam and call non-Muslims through talks, dialogue, and good examples.

It is also necessary in order to take care of new converts to Islam and help their faith to grow deeper; as well as to prepare an Islamic environment that will help in leading a healthy Islamic life.

Moreover, it is necessary in order to receive newcomers and immigrants and to help them to find an environment where they can practice Islam freely.

It is also necessary for defending the issue of the Muslim Nation and the Muslim lands against all hostile and misleading powers and trends.

Furthermore, Muslims should have their special gatherings in well-known cities and states, as well as their own religious, educational, and even entertainment institutions.

They should have their own scholars and sheikhs to answer their questions and guide them to what is right, especially in points of difference.

Spreading without Dispersion

I said to our brothers in such lands that they should try to have their own small community inside the large society otherwise they will dissolve just as salt dissolves in water. They should also exert great effort to establish their own religious, educational, cultural, social, and entertainment institutions. However, this cannot be achieved except through mutual affection and cooperation, as one person alone may not be effective, but he is sure to be effective when he is working alongside his fellows; and Allah the Almighty supports [those who are united in one] jama`h [group, community].

The character of the Jews has been preserved throughout history through their small society that has its own thoughts and rituals represented by what may be called “The Jewish quarter,” so Muslim [minorities] should likewise have their own “quarters”.

I am not calling for such Muslims to become isolated from the society where they live, as this is similar to death. They should be open to the society without exposing themselves to any “dispersion”. The required “openness” is that of a herald of a certain call who seeks to be effective and influential; not that of a person whose only goal is to imitate others and keep up with them in every step they take.

We have been complaining that Arab and Muslim geniuses immigrate to foreign countries where they find a place that they cannot find in their own countries even though they are distinguished in various important and vital specializations.

Since this is an undeniable fact, it is not at all permissible to let those great geniuses forget their religion, nations, heritage, and homelands. We must exert a lot of effort to make their minds and hearts inclined to their native lands as well as their people, families, brothers, and sisters, without violating the right of the country where they live and to which they belong [through their new nationalities].

This can be achieved if their sense of belonging and loyalty are to Allah the Almighty, His Messenger, and the believers, and if they are upset because of the worries of their [Muslim] nation, and as long as their private interests do not take them away from the general issues of their nation. This is what the Jews throughout the world do for the sake of Israel.

Additionally, this is a duty of the Islamic Movement: not to let those people be swallowed up by materialism and opportunism which are widespread in the West. They should always be reminded of their origin for which they yearn.[3]

Since Islam exists in the West and has a religious, cultural, social, and – sometimes – economic presence, it is natural and logical that it would try to complete its political presence, because politics is now interfering in everything; besides, if we disregard politics, it will not leave us alone.

That is why we should answer a number of relevant inquires raised by Muslim minorities living in the West. Some of them are native residents while others are immigrants who have obtained Western nationalities and have become a part of their people.

Their questions include: Should they suffice themselves with the religion and isolate themselves from politics? Or should they adhere to the religion and join the field of politics? If they join politics, will they do this by belonging to other parties, or should they be independent? Therefore, is it permissible to join secularist parties? Is it legal to establish a party which must commit itself to the state’s constitution? Is it permissible for a Muslim to be a candidate in parliamentary assemblies on the basis of this state of affairs where he will have to acknowledge manmade constitutions that are applied in Western and other countries? If a Muslim wins the elections and enters a parliamentary assembly, he will have to swear that he will respect the general system and act upon the constitution: is this in conformity with the creed of Islam and the rulings of Shari`ah [Islamic Law]?

Such inquiries are raised by minorities everywhere; in Europe and other places. I would even say: these questions are also raised by some Muslim groups in many Islamic countries.

Some of these groups maintain that it is prohibited to form political parties, regarding this as an error and an innovation in the religion [bid`ah].

Others say it is unlawful to join elections to obtain membership in parliamentary assemblies. Some even consider this to be against the creed and call it “polytheistic assemblies”. Furthermore, one of them wrote a tract entitled “Joining Parliamentary Assemblies Contradicts Monotheism”!

In addition, some of them object to the wording of the oath taken by the members in which they swear that they will respect and obey the constitution, and so on. Some Islamists remove this paradox by adding “in no disobedience” after the word “obey” in the oath, saying it aloud.

If this is said inside our Islamic countries, what would be the case in other countries?

Hence, a Muslim minority should not derive its political understanding from such groups which have gone away from the correct way of things because of their “extravagance”. This is because they do not acknowledge the need of Islam to exist in these countries unless it is mandatory. They say that living there should be as necessary as using toilets; we have to use them in spite of their impurity, as some of them expressed.

Even some of them say that it is prohibited for a Muslim to obtain the nationality of such countries; they may even charge a person who obtains one with disbelief, because this is – as they say – a form of loyalty or friendship with disbelievers[4] while Almighty Allah says, “… He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them…” (Al-Ma’idah 5: 51)

Some others view that it is prohibited even to reside there if it is not necessary, and “necessity” here is measured according to certain criteria. In this regard, they have doubts which have been refuted by truth-seeking scholars.

The Islamic Shari`ah is realistic, as it takes man’s needs into consideration whether material or spiritual, religious or political, cultural or economic, and whether he lives in a Muslim society or outside it. This Shari`ah considers facilitation in all its rules and rulings; it puts no pressure or hardship and forbids harming others or reciprocating their harm, especially those living outside the Muslim society, for they are more worthy of such alleviation and consideration.

In this connection, among the needs of the Muslim minority is that it needs to live while adhering to its religion, creed, rituals, values, and morals as long as it does not do any harm to others. It also needs to intermingle with the society where it lives; producing, constructing, promoting, participating in all of its [legal] activities, doing what is good, spreading guidance, calling for virtue, resisting abominations, and positively affecting the society through good examples. At the same time, it must not dissolve into this society whereby it would neglect its constituents and religious and creedal characteristics.

Not all Muslim minorities are immigrants. Some – and sometimes all –of them are natives of the country where they live. That is why a minority in any country needs a voice that can express it in legislative assemblies, defend its rights, and prevent the issue of any unfair legislation that may prohibit what Allah the Almighty has legalized, hinder it from performing what He has enjoined upon it, or oblige it to do something that is denied by the Shari`ah.

It would be very beneficial if a number of Muslims are elected to join such assemblies whether independently or as members of a certain party. Those elected Muslims are to defend their sanctities and rights as a minority which has the right to practice its religious life and rituals of worship in a manner that does not harm others. Meanwhile, they should attract fair-minded people who support justice and freedom in all times and places.

The following are a number of Shari`ah rules which are guidelines in this issue:

1. The rule: “That without which an obligation cannot be established is itself an obligation”. Therefore, if Muslims cannot obtain their rights – religious, cultural and so on, – except by participating in politics and joining elections, this becomes obligatory upon them.

2. The rule: “Matters are attached to their objectives”. This rule is unanimously agreed-upon, and it is derived from the famous hadith: “Actions are [judged] only according to intentions, and every person shall be [judged] according to his intention.”[5] Accordingly, whoever participates in any political activity intending to defend Muslims’ rights, religious freedom, and cultural identity, will be rewarded by Allah the Almighty for this and Muslims will be grateful to him as well.

3. The rule of “blocking means [to evil]”. If a minority’s isolating itself from politics endangers its religious and social existence, marginalizes it, deprives it of many merits, and makes it fall into numerous impasses and evils, they must block the means to such dangers, because there is a Prophetic hadith that reads, “Whoever obviates evil will have it warded off.”[6]

4. The rule: “Necessities allow banned things, and needs are equal to necessities whether they are general or special”. Therefore, if a Muslim community living in a non-Muslim society out of necessity needs someone to defend its rights in a democratic country while this would involve some legally “forbidden” things such as swearing to respect the constitution which may include things that contradict Shari`ah; in this case this “forbiddance” is removed because of necessity or need. Almighty Allah says, “… But he who is driven by necessity, neither craving nor transgressing, it is no sin for him. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.” (Al-Baqarah 2: 173)

5. The rule of “masalih mursalah or public interests” which refer to interests concerning which the Shari`ah does not textually specify whether they are to be legally considered or cancelled, but reason accepts them as they achieve benefits – whether material or immaterial – for the Muslim community. The Prophet’s Companions adopted this rule in many matters. Any public interest must not clash with a decisive text [from the Qur’an or the Sunnah] or a decisive rule of the Shari`ah, and it must bring about a real – not illusionary – benefit for the Muslim community.

In the light of this rule we view that it is more becoming for Muslims to participate in politics in order to achieve their religious and communal interests and to ward off dangers and evils, especially [considering the fact that] if they disregard politics, it will not leave them alone.

Muslims can establish a party of their own through which they can demand their rights as well as those of others if their number and power are sufficient to establish an independent party and as long as the constitution and the law allow this.

Muslims can also present a program of reform and guidance derived from the origins of Islamic thought while being connected with the Western perspective and experimentation with the new prospects which conform with the objectives of Shari`ah and the spirit of Islam.

Moreover, there is no problem if this party has non-Muslim members, as it not only presents itself to the Muslims in particular but also to citizens in general; and it is presumed that any Islamic system should present good and real interests to all people; Muslims and non-Muslims.

Muslims can join any political acting party but they should choose one which is nearer to Islamic principles and that sympathizes with Muslims and their interests at the same time; if it has anything that contradicts Islam, they should consider the situation carefully.

This should seek to make a scientific, practical, and objective study that is undertaken by experts and specialists and discussed by those in authority in the Muslim minority in the country in question. After this, Muslims are to decide which is better for them both in secular and religious terms: to form a party of their own or to join an acting party. Also they must decide which party is nearer to them.

They may also prefer something else which may be better than all this: not to form or join any party, but to remain as a free block which affects elections by supporting a certain party or candidate. By doing so, candidates will seek to draw near to them because it always happens that minorities make a candidate exceed another and win the elections especially when the difference of votes between the two is small; so the votes of the minority will overcome this difference in the interest of one of the two candidates.

so you see the predictable pattern of behavior mischka-

phony overtures of friendliness, and fake questions- followed by accusations which increase in their vehemence and aggression,(which ironically are always accusations and projections of violence!) finally descending into nonsensical personal attacks.

kathleen, im neither unhappy nor leaving

im here to stay- born in the USA and never going anywhere

i am in no way obligated to change a thing about myself, nor will i cater to your unreasonable and coercive demands to accommadate what you fear, dont know, and dont understand.

it is up to you to come out of the darkness of paranoia and fear that is controlling you, and learn and replace ignorance with knowledge.

anything i can do to help you learn, ill be happy to do so.

i have no need or reason to justify my existence, faith, family, or religion to you.

i answer you because i choose to do so- and ill ignore you for your chilsdish namecalling and fearful fingerpointing just as quickly

you have to learn how to live in a pluralistic society kathleen-

i already know my country and my government and society

its a shame mischka, but quite predictable

we can onlky be gracious, but strong in our own identities and remember-

we are only answerable to ALLAH

ive said it many times, i will not become a fool by arguing with fools.

a salaamu alaikkum mishcka and peace everyone

Mischka- I'm glad you and your family feel you have assimilated in America. If the depth of your troubles was an inability to find a butcher- then your religious concerns have been shallow.

But for some reason you are unable to acknowledge the youtube I linked. Samina's desire for jihad is not your "fight not to fight". She is your sister Muslim. Its like you have a rabid dog in the room and you are telling everyone its Benji the family pooch. Nobody is ever going to buy what you're selling. They are too aware of the rabid dog:

"An airport worker who called herself a 'lyrical terrorist' and wrote poems describing beheadings became the first woman to be found guilty under new terror laws yesterday.

Samina Malik, 23, penned poems calling for attacks on the West and wrote of 'poisoned bullets' capable of killing an entire street.

The Muslim shop assistant wrote of her desire to become a martyr and listed her favourite videos as the 'beheading ones'."

And look at the comments-

her poetry is horrifying...... Just think of the thousands of radicals that think this way....just waiting to pounce

Wait a minute... I thought "islam is peace"?!?! They (muslims) even have a big pr campaign in England right now.

I also thought England was one big happy multicutural family that celebrates diversity??

im ashamed to be pakistani watching this.. what has the world come to?? can not believe that in this day and age that we still hav such backwards minded people

This is Islam today in the UK. Be under no illusions. It is demented, deranged, and suffers from a complete lack of sane leadership.

Women like this should be sterilsed and deported to Yemen and the Kingdom of Saud, where they can witness beheadings first hand.

This is how the world sees you. It won't change. Other brother or sister Muslims will commit acts of horror again and again. People will look at you. You must learn to change. You must address the rabid dog. You must address the violent verses that inspire these acts of horror. Or change will come to meet you.

*Mischka- Why did your parents come to America and leave their people and culture behind?

My parents came here in the 70's after they got married and stayed here for business purposes.

*As devout Muslims don't they long for their homeland and feel foreign in a secular society?

Actually, they dont. When they came here, they were young and spent their whole lives here. They built a life here. They are US Citizens. This is their home and mine. All their friends are here. My mom couldnt find zabiha meat easily in the 70's but thats not a problem now. My dad encountered some racism in the south so he moved up north.

*Muslims are a small minority in the US and are having a hard time assimilating after 911. Many of the Muslims I know went home after 911. Those still living here are uneasy and unhappy.

Sure - after 911 there was a lot of negativity. I got some heat at work as well. You are forgetting one thing though: this IS my home. I am not scared because I did nothing wrong. My parents are not scared because they worked, paid taxes, raised their kids, etc. just like any other family here. My husband is the same way.

A lot of what people see is cultural...not religious. Sure - its easy to label it as Jihad but that is not Jihad. True Jihad is the fight NOT to fight. What you see is not Islam - its a political dance.

Mischka- Why did your parents come to America and leave their people and culture behind? As devout Muslims don't they long for their homeland and feel foreign in a secular society? Muslims are a small minority in the US and are having a hard time assimilating after 911. Many of the Muslims I know went home after 911. Those still living here are uneasy and unhappy.

"And your religion is not Salaam it is Islam (which means Surrender)."

Read my post Kathleen - what else did I say? Salaam is the greeting offered IN ISLAM.

Actually, its not us who have lost the ability to think independantly. Its you.

You are mesmerized by the media and trust everything that is fed to you by it. You dont know anything about Islam. The Islam YOU know is the Islam that is shown to you. The Islam that sells papers and helps ratings. The reason we are here is because your media controls your mind and controls what you think. A youtube video proves nothing aside from some fanatic's war cry.

I saw a Chicago Sun Times paper a while ago and the cover story was on a Christian priest who had molested young boys in his care. Why dont I make the assumption that all priests are dirty perverts waiting to molest innocent children? Christianity encourages child abuse? If a priest does it, he must encourage those around him to do the same - right? Now, lets assume all Christians are child-molesting perverts.

As for my Mom and Dad - they are simply great examples. I have watched and learned from them. Parents always play a major role in how you interpret things.

"Islam the religion that offers that greeting of peace."

Mischka- Your posts (and Victoria's) give me reason to believe you have lost the ability to reason and think independently. Better watch the youtube I linked-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbIosTmXXQo

Then ask Mom and Dad to explain it to you.

And "Shalom" and "Pax vobiscum" long, long preceded Islam. And your religion is not Salaam it is Islam (which means Surrender).

"Salaam means Peace. It is a salutation of passivity and nonviolence. It is the greeting of friends. If your religion was of Peace - it would be Salaam."

Tina - Salaam is a greeting that means peace - you are right! Islam the religion that offers that greeting of peace.

"women are obligated to put on *chain* on their heads"

That is not Islam. That might be Malaysian custom. Again, learn to differentiate between culture and religion.

CCNL -

"And the seven Islamic doctors in the UK were somehow had "No money, no future, no system, etc. What do you do? You are young and impressionable, no dreams, no way of getting out...at that point if some religious zealot gives you a purpose in life...you WILL take it. Because that is all you have got." ?????????????"

The common mistake made by CCNL - always taking things out of context. I wrote the above statement with respect to young teenagers who have no future. Must I explain this all over again?

Rationalist - if you are rational and I have no doubt that you are - you would be able to see that yet again - I am right. Your post pertains to practices that are conducted among villages and tribes in the Middle East. However, these practices are not Islamic. What you describe are social and cultural boundaries.

They are against everything that Islam stands for. Women are not to be abused in Islam. I am Muslim. My family is Muslim. My father has never laid a hand on my mother. She is free to do as she wishes. She wanted to stay home with her kids, she did that. She wanted to work, she did that too.

What you describe is not Islam.

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

Your "pussy-foot" version of Islam should be called "The Best of the Religious Ancients" since it has no relationship with the koran.

"our great jihad is examination of the conflicts that exist within our own natures and coming to peace with our own souls"

Please excuse me, Victoria, but your posts just don't have the ring of truth. Do you really expect readers to believe you? Islam means surrender and Tina is dead-on right to believe it is warlike. This video tells the true story and slaps down any hope you might have had of convincing me that Islam means peace.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbIosTmXXQo

EVERY READER SHOULD TAKE A MINUTE AND VIEW

This is the real message-
Google Report:-
Read- *** Between 1993 to 2001- There have been 109 case of so called "Honour killings" happened in Britain, and all were Muslims"****.
Mrs Diana Nammi- the founder of the 'International Campaign Against Honour Killing' based at London.
Mrs. Diana Nammi stated that- Over past year her organization had received a fourfold increase of women seeking help, because they are fearful of their lives and felt they are too may be victim.
Mrs. Diana Nammi said-" The number of Honour Killings have gone up because more women are realizing that they have their rights".
She also said that all of the Girls are seeking help were all Muslim from Afghanistan, Iran, Kurdistan and Pakistan.
More read-> BBC News, Date- Friday, 12 October 2007. Reporter-by Lina Sinjab.....
"Seventeen Year old Bushar is too scared to give her real name. she talked in low, trembling voice, her face is full of fear.
'The fearful Girl said~** They want to shade my blood, They Want to Kill me**. 'She then recounts how she escaped, being murdered by the members of her own family in a so-called honour killing. She is a Sunni Muslim and she had fallen in love with Fadel from Syria is Alawite Muslim minority".
So one can see- how realty bites???

tina- you forget the most basic spiritual focus- to make peace within ones own heart-
to resign oneself to acknowledge our own weakness and dependence upon ALLAH
to surrender the will of the ego to the will of ALLAH-
and finally, to be made complete in our peace
without which, there can be no peace anywhere-

despite your pacific nature, your mind automatically went to a warlike defintion?

its not my definition tina-

as i said- its the etymological roots of the word- you'll have to take the definition up with dictionary etymological sources

it seems you have revealed your intent - not to engage in discourse of a give and take civil nature- but to cast aspersions and make accusations, now of a personal nature.

since you are asking questions which- apparently you already feel you have a deeper knowledge of than i do-
my suspicion as to their rhetorical nature and your desire to simply post accusations falsely presented as queries will become cemented

ive given you many links to peruse
so since you have no repsonse or answer to my questions-
i think we should agree to disagree
and go our own ways in our respective peace

kathleen- i can only speak for myself
no muslims i know have ever suggested that world domination will lead to peace- or that is the meaning of peace

our great jihad is examination of the conflicts that exist within our own natures and coming to peace with our own souls

that is where peace will come from-

the whole world could become muslim-but to what end? it is not a quantity issue

it is a quality issue

peace

That's the best explanation of the meaning of Islam I have heard. I hear people say religion of peace so often, but if you follow the news it makes no sense. Islam means surrender (or else there will never be peace). I think some Muslims believe peace will come when the whole world converts. But thats foolish because Muslims can't stop making war against each other.

Victoria,

Two sips of Whisky is *useful* for *human body*.One glass of *red wine* is also useful.If you are *sensible* on *human health*,could you tell me *the fasting* benefit.Is it *healty* or *harmful* even *torture* ?
What is *Life expectancy* in Sweden,Denmark where too much alcohol used.80 years+(I dont advocate alcohol indeed,I am just giving example)
What is Life exp. in muslim Pakistan.60 years+.

I asked you *The Religious Police* so-called *the fasting police* in islamofascist Malaysia.but you didnt respond me.Besides,some region of Malaysia,people are *obligated to put their *saving* at *islamic bank* and women are obligated to put on *chain* on their heads.

Mischka,
***If *he* can ban alcohol then why did he not ban slavery***
You answer *he did*.No,wrong.Hundred times wrong.He was *slave trader*.
There were many *Legal Avrad(women) and slave market* in Ottoman Empire till end of 19th century.

Islam means *peace*.Ok.Could you show me any *peaceful islamic country* ?
Islam means *moderation*.Ok.Would you write any *moderate islamic land* ?
Briefly,please,I please you *show me any islamic country living like ''human being'' *

Victoria- You say you are a pacifist. But your post indicates you have little understanding or affinity for nonviolence.

And you're definition of Islam proves your lack of understanding.

Salaam means Peace. It is a salutation of passivity and nonviolence. It is the greeting of friends. If your religion was of Peace -it would be Salaam.

"Islam means 'aslama, to surrender, resign oneself, from Syriac 'ašlem, to make peace, surrender, derived stem of šlem, to be complete; see šlm in Semitic roots'

To make peace implies you have an enemy who has brought war against you. For war to cease you must "surrender", "resign yourself to another's rule", "make peace with the enemy".

o yes tina,and those examples of buddhists successes you cited- also, who are the buddhist peace activists?
hasnt the dalai lama spent his life trying to get someone to help him kick china out of tibet?

dont get me wrong, i love the dalai lama.

hi lib- having fun?

peace

Mischka:

It is obvious that you, as with many of us, have been Bred, Born and Brainwashed in your religion.

There is a way out. See the following Five Step Deprogramming System. Hopefully this will allow you to come to terms with your koranic ways.

(Using "The 77 Branches of Islamic "faith" a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi as a starting point. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true "faith" (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.)

"1. Belief in Allah"

"aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc." should be added to the your brainwashed neurons.

"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."

Really???? Evolution and the Big Bang or the "Gib Gnab" (when the universe starts to recycle) is more plausible and the "akas" for Allah should be included if you continue to be a "creationist".

"3. To believe in the existence of angels."

A major item for neuron deletion. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ugly wingy talking flying fictional thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented.

"4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."

Another major item to delete. There are no books written in the spirit state of Heaven (if there is one) just as there are no angels to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.

Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the uneducated masses in line. Today we call them fortune tellers.

Prophecies are also invalidated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.

"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone."

Mohammed spent thirty days fasting in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a neuron deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic violence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallucinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.

Accept these five points and we guarantee a complete recovery from your koranic, "cultic" ways!!!!

And we still await your condemnation of the Islamic terror theocracy of Iran!!!!

And the seven Islamic doctors in the UK were somehow had "No money, no future, no system, etc. What do you do? You are young and impressionable, no dreams, no way of getting out...at that point if some religious zealot gives you a purpose in life...you WILL take it. Because that is all you have got." ?????????????

thank you mischka- then you know i dont often get compliments! so they're all the more precious for that :)

tina- you seem to think i just became a muslim
i became a muslim 8 1/2 years ago-
i didnt know any muslims when i became one- but did it through prayer and reading and study

so its never an issue of lsitening to toehr people when itcomes to islam
i have a slid way of reasearching on my own when i talk to any musim-
since almost every american mosque has a cross section of muslims from indonesia to lebanon, i ask.
but i ask 5 people and only in regards to socially impacted issues
behavior and manners and customs-
different conutries give different importance to different aspects of islam

but i only go to scholars for answers to doctrinal issues, never accept opinions and tenaciously and conscientiously demand substantiation in the form of references and only valid ones at that.

etymology is a side interest to me- it goes to my interest in the roots and sources of things-

etymylogically, islam DOES mena peace and surrender (submission)

heres its roots

Arabic 'islām, submission, from 'aslama, to surrender, resign oneself, from Syriac 'ašlem, to make peace, surrender, derived stem of šlem, to be complete; see šlm in Semitic roots.]

is that not a beautiful meaning?

to make peace, resgin oneself, surrender and be complete

as i responded with clarity and specificity to your post-

i like to finish one conversation before i start another.

a conversation should be give and take, yes?

question, answer

question, then answer!

so would you respond to the questions i asked before we proceed to new questions?

to me, acknowledgement and repsonse of points made- (with references linked of course)
is the only civil way to discourse.

so, about those vague numbers, what are they and in refernce to what and whats the implication?

and what are the successes of buddhist societies in regard to pacifism?

i find history doesnt really support that- look at vietnam, korea (burma) china- ( i know, china has also had confucionism and taoism)
and tibet

how do buddhist protect the weaker members of its societies against the aggression of its neighbors?

peace

Victoria- I've never heard of Muslim peace activists, only famous Muslim warriors -like Mohammed.

Please give me the name of several who led nonviolent movements. I would like to know their names.

I know Cat Stevens thinks he's a peace activist, but he's never led anyone and he wrote Peace Train before he was a Muslim. He may be a pacifist - but he is no equal to Martin Luther King or Ghandi.

And Islam doesn't mean peace. Perhaps you haven't been Muslim long enough to know. Islam means Submission. I know people who have no understanding of the language say-peace through submission. But the meaning of the word is clear and peace is not there. Don't let people lie to you. You like to read -Look it up.

Walaikum Assalam Victoria!

I have read these blogs before and I enjoy them immensely.

Specifically, I like the way you approach every question/issue/concern. You never attack. You listen and you always have facts to back up your statements. I have to say that you have been an excellent example for me and I am learning to be patient with people instead of getting angry when they accuse/slander.

"i always remember that there are silent observers who watch these exchanges, and make their judgements based on our good manners"

I cant imagine it being put any better!

Thank you for the warm welcome sista!

tina- you made a vague reference to the 'numbers' being against me.

i have no clear idea of what numbers, or what sources you are referring to.
and how tese nebulous numbers could be against me, in particular- but i welcome clarification.

im not sure what successes you are attributing to ahimsa (avoidance of violence)

even gandhis movement of civil disobedience (which he credits thoreau with sepcifically n his autobiography) did not lead to the ideal inclusion gandhi was hoping for.

it drove the british rule out- but it also drove the muslims into pakistan, but also created an exclusion and diviseness-something gandhi himself saw might cause problems down the road.

witness the occurrences in pakistan today-
a democratic nation (from its inception) whose dictator who stole power under a military coup has been supported and encouraged by the american government.

look at the violence that is happening in that region-
it has nothing to do with islam-
its not based on religious convictions- but political expediency.

another example is what has recently happened in myanmar (formerly burma)

the government that has killed and imprisoned the buddhist monks were all raised buddhists.

u would not suggest that buddhism is the cause of their violence to their brothers-
even though they were socialized in that atmosphere-
clearly its the greed for power and own violent nature which initiated their actions.

man is a violent creature.

saying peace to one wo is stealing your land, killing your children or raping your women wont stop them.

this is an interesting aspect of pacisfism that ive asked many pacifists how they manage to protect themsleves from the violent in the world

what recourse was there for the monks?
and while their martyrdom drew international attention- what success has it had?
these are riddles ive not found the answers to.

to me. it is an incomplete study of human nature-

so what are those numbers and sources and what exactly are they disproving or proving anyway?
peace

Victoria- I've never heard of Muslim peace activists, only famous Muslim warriors -like Mohammed.

Please give me the name of several who led nonviolent movements. I would like to know their names.

I know Cat Stevens thinks he's a peace activist, but he's never led anyone and he wrote Peace Train before he was a Muslim. He may be a pacifist - but he is no equal to Martin Luther King or Ghandi.

And Islam doesn't mean peace. Perhaps you haven't been Muslim long enough to know. Islam means Submission. I know people who have no understanding of the language say-peace through submission. But the meaning of the word is clear and peace is not there. Don't let people lie to you. You like to read -Look it up.

tina, i am and have been an outspoken activist and pacifist for my entire life

and i am a muslim

because it is the religion of peace
the name itself means peace- its the only religion that is named for an ideology rather than a person or an geographical region

it is truly the universal call to mankind

i welcome you to examine islam and decide for yourself

arif- actually, the first modern urban guerilla warfare civilians (come to be known as terrorism) was the group of michael collins in ireland-
all christians, all terrorists for the entire 20th century

but this isnt about defaming another

what does anyone gain by doing so?

mischka- a salaamu alaikum and welcome to these blogs

this is the normal progression of a blog written by a muslim panelist

and its always the same people

many will engage you with seemingly benign or sincere questions

but it becomes apparent after patient and reasoned answers that the questions are rhetorical, not expected to be answered but only posted as a way to make an accusation (ususally implicit in the "question")

such questions are offensive and hence, put muslims on the defensive.

instead of allowing us to define ourselves as muslims- they distract us into becoming apologists

im glad to see you're not alowing yourself to be manipulated by such rudimentary tactics

i always remember that there are silent observers who watch these exchanges, and make their judgements based on our good manners

peace mischka, its good to see someone who speaks so eloquently for our religion here

Victoria - I read and watch and the numbers are against you and grow daily. If you read -you cannot miss it. Again. I am sorry.

Mushki - I am Buddhist. But may I say as Ghandi did - Non-violence is as old as the hills. And it has been used by many people of many faiths with great success over the centuries.

You are wrong- but continue to think about what is happening in the world and you may with time find the truth.

Arif,

"Chopping off a Jewish Mans head destroying his whole tribe and then marrying his 17 year old wife all in the same day.

I hate to ask you this but what religion are you reading up on? What version of Islam were you taught? Obviously you've got it all wrong. Are you sure that all this venom you have for Islam is not just some useless crap that was fed to you by just another Islam-O-Hater? It definitely seems like it. Sorry.

" If Mohammed can ban Alcohol then why did he not ban slavery?"

He did. :-)

"This means Allah too never forgave anyone how can his followers?"

The Prophet (pbuh) did and so does Allah (SWT). You simply have to ask with a clean heart.

"mischka: You know very little about your religion"

WRONG - YOU know very little about my religion.

I see that most of what you write is usually and almost always out of context. That is a very bad habit I have noticed of people here. Everything is taken out of context and twisted to help themselves. No wonder there are so many sects and denominations. You cannot pick and choose what works for you out of your religion! This is not a salad bar!

Tina - "And please remember- plenty of people have suffered over the centuries and managed to be heard and make change without bloody slaughter, decapitations, and masked terror. Sheesh. Give me a break."

Tina - What on earth are you talking about? Are we forgetting the history of Christianity here? The bloodbath that Christians have ran in the name of the Church?

"I am sure you have seen the videos they make before they kill themselves and others-- quoting your sacred violent verses and pledging love for Allah."

This has been addressed : the islam you seem to be familiar with is the fundamentalist extremist

tina- your complaints have been answered

i dont really look at youtube-

i read

i have provided copious infromation that addresses every one of your complaints

i cannot read it for you, and dont hog the blog with long pots- instead i respect the board and provide links

youve asked, and ive given it to you

read them

The Christian Terrorist:
The only known Christian terrorists are a few people, so few that we can count them on one hand. These individuals have been known to bomb clinics in the middle of the night when no one is around so that there is maximum damage to the property and hopefully no life lost. The reason for such an act is to keep certain organizations from performing abortions. They (one) have also been known to kill an abortion doctor. These terrorists are usually only found in the USA.

The Muslim Terrorist:
Plenty of them around mainly prey upon infidels and Jews, many (men/women) have been known to have strapped belts around their waists, go to a crowded place and detonate themselves, the goal is to have maximum casualties. Others have been known to strap bombs around themselves or backpacks and explode in a crowded bus or train; again, the goal is to cause MAXIMUM civilian casualties.
But wait, there is another kind too, one that trains to fly planes (skills for takeoff and landing not necessary), their goal is to take control of a preferably full commercial flight by using any weapon they can smuggle across, slice (sacrifice) off the necks of the airline staff, take control of the plane and fly it into a very crowded building, thereby causing maximum casualties; before slamming into the building they utter Allah-hu-Akbar!

Any questions?

"just like christianity has its terrorists who feel justified in bombing an abortion clinic-
so does islam."

I am sorry Victoria. The numbers are against you. When was the last time an abortion clinic was bombed? Muslims kill other Muslims daily. Look at Darfur or Palestine. They are following the verses they are taught and believe are holy. As a Muslim- I am sure you have seen the videos they make before they kill themselves and others-- quoting your sacred violent verses and pledging love for Allah. Where are the videos of Muslims denouncing these unrighteous acts? Have you made yours. You can quote the verses you've shared here and put it on youtube. The response may be surprising. Maybe you will start a movement of moderate Muslims? Or maybe you will just make enemies.

tina- here is yet another one-

http://altmuslim.com/

i can only post them, i cannot make you click on the link-
that, you have to do.
but the voices are everyhwere

thats an interesting comment, and one i only hear from non-muslims

no tina. im not out of step with the muslims around the world

IM in the majority- the extremists, who are the only ones who get press- are the minority.

i know my own religion, and know that it is a religion of moderation -

for example, i and most muslims in the world do not interpret the qu'ran in a literalist and fundamentalist way-

the islam you seem to be familiar with is the fundamentalist extremist-

just like christianity has its terrorists who feel justified in bombing an abortion clinic-
so does islam.

but it doesnt mean that other christians look at each other and say, youre not a real christian becuase youre not bombing abortion clinics-
only a fundy would have that attitude or judgement against their sisters

even on these boards- when they started out a year ago- had many muslims-
but they got attacked and demonized so much that most of them left.

ive stayed because im an american, and encounter these fears every day-
i understand also my own people, and realize this firum may be one of the few places an average american can encounter a muslim voice-

so i stick it out- despite being called horrible names, and hearing pernicious and disgusting lies about my religion

because of exaclty what you said-

where are the muslims who say peace?

well, heres one who's been saying it for a lifetime.

even when i do research on the net- i have to wade through pages of fake anti-muslim sites to get to real ones by muslims.

heresanother site-
the international msulim scholars

http://www.iumsonline.net/english/index.shtml

as you can see on the main page- there are countless articles against terrorism, extremism-

peace

heres one tina-
its a consortium of over 500 muslim scholars from around the world

http://ammanmessage.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=97
i can certainly post more

"just as you, yourself, took information that was incomplete and reached a false conclusion- there are muslims in the world who do the same thing to justify their political actions and violence

they are wrong tina
and the whole worldwide muslim community speaks long and loud against any who commit violence ESPECIALLY against innocents- as there are specific verses condmening that too."

Victoria -If it is true- they have not made themselves heard. The only time I have seen the worldwide Muslim community join their voices was in response to the Mohammed cartoons. Remember they were calling for the death of the cartoonists. Have you considered you may be out of step with the Muslim majority and on their list of infidels?

i asked halozcel on another thread, and now ill ask arif too-

since you seem to be a proponent of alcohol, perhaps you could write a small piece about the ways in which alcohol benefits people and society.

personally, i dont care- you can drink yourself silly-
since i dont drink, why would i want to?

of course halozcel ignored this request- even though i always respond patiently, reasonably with good manners and at length to all halos
posts-

even the ones that are overtly hateful slanderous.

one of the marks in islam of a hypocrite is one who institgates arguments for the sake of arguing

we are under no compulsion to validate their malicious accusations

we can agree to disagree and leave it at that

i have a 2 week old kitten thats been abandoned and have to feed it as its crying now

tina- many HAVE posted verses here-
however there is a tendency to skip over or only post half sentences which is very misleading-

i dont know about what mischka has read, but i read the entire qu'ran. not just bits and pieces selectively presented.

heres an example of one of the 'violent' posts you refer to- ( i just saw this posted recently here)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“When you meet unbelievers in war, smite their necks until you overcome them fully"

and also

“Fight for the cause of Allah those who wage war against you"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

but these are half sentences.
and also in relation to war- which islam has very comprehensive and humane restrictions on

if we compare the qu'ran to the bible, for instance- there are many any descriptions of wars- but no guidances for behavior to limit aggression-

when the israelites are commanded to smash the heads of babies against the stones- thats it-
theres no qualifying statement- its cut and dried
no exceptions- all enemys babies are to have their heads smashed against the stones.

now compare that wartime behavior to the qu'ran, and the ENTIRE sentence -not just a half-

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“When you meet unbelievers in war, smite their necks until you overcome them fully, and then tighten their bonds; but thereafter set them free, either by an act of grace or against ransom, so that the burden of war may be lifted.” (Muhammad 47: 4)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
the qu'ran is saying se the enemy free by an act of grace- to encourage peace- and stop war.

if you read the entire bible you will find no equivalent call to grace and peace in war

heres the second half sentence in it's entirety
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“Fight for the cause of Allah those who wage war against you, but do not commit aggression. Indeed, Allah does not love aggressors.” (Al-Baqarah 2: 190)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

DO NOT COMMIT AGGRESSION

if someone wages was offensive war AGAINST you- you may defend yourself.
but you MAY NOT commit agrgression.

this is absolutlely consistent within the qu'ran.

“Good and evil cannot be equal. Therefore, repel evil with that which is best, and then, a person between whom and yourself there was enmity may become a close and true friend.” (Fussilat 41: 34)

“Repel evil with that which is best.” (Al-Mu'minun 23: 96)

Muslims are described in the Qur'an as those who “repel evil with what is good.” (Ar-Ra`d 13: 22)

so, as you said, muslims must take these verses seriously-

theres no way to get around it- aggression is forbidden over and over and over again in the qu'ran.

just as you, yourself, took information that was incomplete and reached a false conclusion- there are muslims in the world who do the same thing to justify their political actions and violence

they are wrong tina
and the whole worldwide muslim community speaks long and loud against any who commit violence ESPECIALLY against innocents- as there are specific verses condmening that too.

peace

"RIGHT - Alcohol is NOT allowed. Anything that impairs your judgement even temporarily is not allowed. What you have up there is part of a verse...not the entire verse."

Precisely Mohammed does not tell me what or what not to do especially since he was a womanizer and a wife snatcher himself. To me a man who coverts his neighbors wife (his adopted sons wife) is far worse than one who occasionally drinks. If Mohammed can ban Alcohol then why did he not ban slavery? Chopping off a Jewish Mans head destroying his whole tribe and then marrying his 17 year old wife all in the same day? You mentioned to another poster that in his time there were so many widows so the Muslims were "forced" to marry them. Have you ever wondered why there wre so many widdows? Because if you were thinking then you'd realize all the wars Mohammed fought were offensive only one was defensive (khandak-ditch). No wonder there were so many women to go around!

"The best Jihad is the Jihad within yourself. Fighting evil and not giving into emotions like revenge, greed, etc."

Wow! This coming from a person who's "last" Prophet never forgave anyone and Muslims are supposed to emulate this man. Remember the story where Mohammed's camels were stolen? Remember he tracked down the thieves and killed them by tying their legs to the camels and made the animals run in the opposite direction? Also thieves stole his camels, where did Mohammed get those camels from? He was a looter and a thief too; most probably he stole those camels himself.

"Booze? Thats your reason for hating Islam? Because it doesnt allow you to drink? Wow."

NO, never. Booze goes back to ancient times and has been with mankind long before the desert prophet came along. The reason I hate Islam is the "last" prophet and his life stile. This mans Allah too never forgave anyone how can his followers? Mohammed's uncle Abu Lahab I think hated this man (Mohammed), if he, Mohammed or Allah practiced forgiveness then why such a horrible verse?...

Perish the two hands of Abu Lahab (an uncle of the Prophet) and perish he!
His wealth and his children (etc.) will not benefit him!"
He will be burnt in a Fire of blazing flames!
And his wife too, who carries wood (thorns of Sadan which she used to put on the way of the Prophet (Peace be upon him), or use to slander him).
In her neck is a twisted rope of Masad (palm fibre).

Above you can see how the Almighty curses a mere human his children AND his wife? Allah's revenge is petty and downright cruel.
mischka: You know very little about your religion, please do some of your own research and then post, you do not know how your "last" prophets life has affected/poisoned a billion people and counting.

"These people are trying to be heard. They just happen to be Muslim as well."

Mushki- They happen to be Muslim who have read their Holy Writings and are acting "righteously".

As a Muslim- surely you have read the violent verses in the Qur'an. They are posted here often.

If a Muslim takes these verses literally and seriously, as all good Muslims are supposed to do – since they are taught that every verse is directly handed down from Allah, then it is easy to see how they incite violent behavior towards the innocent.

And please remember- plenty of people have suffered over the centuries and managed to be heard and make change without bloody slaughter, decapitations, and masked terror. Sheesh. Give me a break.

Mohammed, an illiterate (as per Karen Armstrong an OnFaith panelist), womanizing, warmongering, hallucinating Arab (i.e. seeing an angel in a dark, hot cave after 30 days of fasting), also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

Our Prophet (pbuh) was illiterate. We know that. That is actually in the Qur'an.

You say that He was a womanizer because he had multiple wives. I keep telling you people that the four wives rule is not applicable in today's day and age. I admit that it is being abused now...but isnt alcohol as well? It was implemented then because of the obscene amount of widows and fatherless children as a result of the wars. Women did not work - who would take care of whole families that were left with no provider? Non-Muslim (People of the Book) women married into Muslim homes as well and it was allowed. No, they were not required to convert. I have several Caucasian/Pakistani cousins and their mother did not convert. At the end of the day, there were casualties on both sides. There are several conditions to taking even one more wife. Permission from the first wife being THE most important.

You say that He was warmongering. Since when is it wrong to defend yourself against religious persecution?

If you look at the religion itself. Not the propaganda, not the media, not the newspapers, etc. you would find your answers. There is no militaristic agenda - the only agenda is to be a better Muslim. A better person.

The Qur'an has not been modified since it was brought to us. What does that say to you?

As for: "seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic train bombers in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani koranics, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino koranics."

These people are trying to be heard. They just happen to be Muslim as well. They want someone to notice what is happening to them as a result of corruption and greed. When you are 16 years old and out of options already - what do you do? No money, no future, no system, etc. What do you do? You are young and impressionable, no dreams, no way of getting out...at that point if some religious zealot gives you a purpose in life...you WILL take it. Because that is all you have got. Whether these people are Muslims, Jews, Christians, Buddists, Hindus, etc. at the end of the day they are still people. People that you share this world with. You may not feel like you have a responsiblity towards them...but you do.

When a child commites suicide - we call it a cry for help.

There are many good ways of living - you are right I agree with you. I also think that Islam is one of them.

For Mischka only,

It boils down to the flaws in the founders and foundations of the major religions as noted in the following synopsis. Please peruse and give us your counterpoints.

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was probably a mythical character. If he was real, he was at best a combination of at least three men. 1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT. ***http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus. Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics. http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

3. Mohammed, an illiterate (as per Karen Armstrong an OnFaith panelist), womanizing, warmongering, hallucinating Arab (i.e. seeing an angel in a dark, hot cave after 30 days of fasting), also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic train bombers in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani koranics, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino koranics.

And who funds these acts of terror? The Islamic Shiite terror theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Islamic Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

4. Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy talking flying fictional thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

5. Hinduism (from an online Hindu site)- "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centered and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’"

The caste/laborer system and cow worship are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."

"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life.

Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations/embellishments/lies and myths surrounding the founders and foundations of said rules of life.

**Alcohol is not allowed because...**

Wrong.Book of Contradiction says **And of the fruit of the date-palm and *grapes* when you derive *strong drink*...** 16.67
How can we interpret this verse ?

RIGHT - Alcohol is NOT allowed. Anything that impairs your judgement even temporarily is not allowed. What you have up there is part of a verse...not the entire verse.

If you are going to talk religion, walk the walk. Dont pick and choose the parts that suit you.

Victoria - thank you! :-)

**Alcohol is not allowed because...**

Wrong.Book of Contradiction says **And of the fruit of the date-palm and *grapes* when you derive *strong drink*...** 16.67
How can we interpret this verse ?

mischka- you're holding up admirably-

"Yes, you are correct! I couldn't get myself to pray one time let alone five"

That sounds about right.

YES! I firmly believe that Islam has been hijacked. Some dumbasses who had a lot of time on their hands decided to slap Jihad on a bomb and drop it. Islam does not call for that.

The best Jihad is the Jihad within yourself. Fighting evil and not giving into emotions like revenge, greed, etc.

Booze? Thats your reason for hating Islam? Because it doesnt allow you to drink? Wow. Alcohol is not allowed because it impairs judgement. And dont come back with that age-old argument that its good for your heart. There are other ways to have a healthy heart - EXERCISE! Dont find excuses to get drunk!

As for that little story you wrote...I dont know everything about Islam. However, I do know that the reason adoption is not okay in Islam is NOT what you wrote. It is to protect the child's identity. You cannot change the child's last name and give him/her your own...adopt. You can raise him/her as your own but cannot take away who they really are.

You see it on TV shows all the time, children who still dont know who they are, where they came from, who their father is, etc. Why create more misery?

Dear Halozcel

Thank you for that brief glimpse into your mind.

1-*He makes breakfast and I make the bed* or *I cook dinner,he cleans the laundry etc.*

This IS *islamic life*. Women are not even half as oppressed in Islam as you think.

2-About *infertile woman*. Marrying multiple wives is ONLY acceptable with the permission of the first wife AND ONLY in extreme situations (a widow in need of help/shelter/father for her children) otherwise the marriage is not recognized. I agree - people out there abuse this concept but there was a reason why this rule was put into effect.

3-*No one circumcises women in islam*

RIGHT - it may be done commonly in those countries - but it is NOT a religious mandate. Islam does NOT circumsize women. It is a tradition/practice among the Egyptians and Sudanese.

4-*Successful not because they are making load of money*(Palaver).How many *bussinesswoman* are there in Saudi Arabia (homeland of islam) and how many women are working in islamic countries?

Millions! We have our own actresses, doctors, lawyers, etc. Female, Female, Female. Pakistan has already had a female Prime Minister. My mother went to college in Pakistan in the 70's and worked too. I come from a family of four sisters - my dad MADE us go to school. All four girls. Women are doing it all...the ones you see are the ones you choose to see. We have battered and beaten women in America too who lead the same kind of a life...they just wear pants instead of a burqa.

The thing you might want to remember is that Christianity or Islam has nothing to do with the amount of suffering or violence in America or the East. Its the culture, its the people, its our leaders, its the upbringing, its the society.

Dear Hal,

If you are going to present a hadith, let it be an authentic one. There are a lot of books out there that dont have correct documentation. I highly doubt that your hadith are coming from a credible source. In fact, its just plain old BS.

Mischka,
Anonymous is right in many ways, his argument about immigrants to the United States from failed states and failed economies is a very valid one indeed. People immigrate from Pakistan, Bangladesh, India, the Middle East for one prime reason; self worth. They feel they cannot achieve their full potential for themselves or for their children in the countries they live in. Many high-tech graduates from India/Pakistan the Middle East find their way into the United States and Canada for just that one reason, your husband and your parents did too. Exceptions are there but that is not the norm. It is many a university graduates dream in Pakistan/India/ME... to go abroad and leave their homeland; Why? Because their own countries have failed them, politically, economically and for the most part failed ideologies(Islam in our case).

You claim that Islamists hijacked your religion; I firmly believe that no one can Hijack a religion. After 911 some clown coined that phrase, if Islam can be hijacked then it is not worth being a religion.

You say; "Arif - you sound like you were just too lazy to pray five times a day."
Yes, you are correct! I couldn't get myself to pray one time let alone five. I cannot get myself to do weird gymnastics for Allah, and btw where did these rituals of praying come from? The Koran definitely does not tell us how to pray so it must be the Hadith, the same place that tell us Mohammed (the prophet) was a looter, and a womanizer among other things.

"You dont feel good enough to speak to God?"
Actually I do, I feel fine talking to the Jesus type of God, not Allah. That Jesus guy hung around bad guys and prostitutes. He ridiculed all forms of stupidity in the Jewish faith at the same time never condemning them. He is known to have NOT stoned adulteresses. He was among other tings a party animal, what I like most about this guy is when he saw the booze run out at a party, he said, "WTF! No booze? We'll take care of that."... And he did.

You said;
"Thats the problem. We didnt GET it. We didnt rule it. We didnt get to make it...let alone ruin it. "

Then pray tell me who did? The Jews?

You mentioned to another poster that you were thinking of adopting, wonderful, it’s a great experience. I too adopted several girls from India/Pakistan. However the experience I had in Pakistan was both demeaning and downright ugly. After the Judge and the American appointed doctor’s experience I decided to go adopt from India which was expensive but much more rewarding. I later learnt that in Islam you cannot adopt, you are the Guardian. This is because your holy prophet, yes, the rasool allah peeped on his adopted sons wife and lusted her immediately. He then made his son divorce her and married her. His handy dandy Gabriel and Allah also came to his rescue after people objected. Please read about it yourself and tell us what you think. Adoption, a very noble human act in Islam has always been frowned upon ever since.
The shortcomings of Islam are just that, those people pointing them out must not be called haters or islamophobes. I don't intend to hurt "believers" feelings, if you must believe then make darn sure your beliefs are very sound.

Dear Mischka,

*Wrongness of Wrong*

1-*He makes breakfast and I make the bed* or *I cook dinner,he cleans the laundry etc.*
Wrong.Yhis is not *islamic life*,but *secular life*.You describe *secular life*(life like *human being*),not *islamic life*.

2-About *infertile woman*.What you explain is also *secular life*,not *islamic example*.If woman doesnt have kid,*muslim master/husband* can *take* second,third or fourth women.

3-*No one circumcises women in islam*
Wrong.It is very commen in Egypt,Sudan etc.

4-*Successful not because they are making load of money*(Palaver).How many *bussinesswoman* are there in Saudi Arabia(homeland of islam) and how many women are working in islamic countries ?

Dear Mischka,
Woman in islam.Lets have a look.

*Women are your tilth* Fear Book 2.223
*2.222 describes woman as ''pollution''*.A hadith says * women are ''filthy creatures''*
*Two women equals one man* 2.282
*Man can scourge woman* Book of Nightmare 4.34
Another hadith says *women are deficient on intelligence and faith*

I thank you to read my post.

Victoria...couldnt help it.

I just cant believe that such ignorance still exists.

TO Rationlist (You really should live upto your name):

"1.Marrying Muslim, means Your have enter in sharia law system. This system governs women of all their womanly lives, that means she loses all liberty, she has to surrender to her master- Husband, to accepts master's all diabolical whims. Example- Master can flog his wife when he feels to do so. Women has to do all domestic works plus all required pampering slavishly her master.

****-WRONG. Sorry to disappoint you. He makes breakfast and I make the bed. I work full time. He does too. He and I come home around the same time. I cook dinner (I am a better cook) and he cleans/does the laundry.****

2. The Muslim women Must bring children to create little Muslim Brigade thus increasing Muslim population. If by chance any woman is infertile or some how can not conceive, then according to Sharia law that dictates that Her husband's father can copulate her to make her pregnant. Again if that fail, She faces TALAK, and in extreme case She could face Sharia Law-Death Penalty.

****-WRONG. I dont have kids. He has never once even spoken to me in anger on this topic let alone TALAK. There is no death penalty for being infertile. EVERYTHING YOU HAVE WRITTEN IS FASLE AND IS NOT DOCUMENTED ANYWHERE ASIDE FROM YOUR OVERACTIVE IMAGINATION. These are rumors and this is how they get started.****

3. Infertile women are subjected to all sorts of tortures, and they usually lose their social rights and status, and literally isolated from Mainstream Muslim society. But Muslim men are protected by Sharia laws, and they can not be branded as infertile or impotent ones. This is total irony and most obnoxious Sharia law system, we see today.

****-WRONG. Not even an argument. We talk about adoption from time to time and thats it. My cousin does not have kids either and I see her at every function. She is not isolated, she is not cast away. She is thinking of adopting as well. What are you describing is not Sharia law...its probably the custom of a specific trible or village.****

3. If any women considered as an infidel or having an affair with other person, then she has committed adultery and she will be punished by death. any young Muslim Girl has developed a relation with a young non-Muslim person, then that it self an serious offence, punishable by death. So what usually happens to that ill fated Muslim girl? Her throat will be cut by her own relatives, either by her own brother or her Uncles. In the mean time Young Muslim men are allowed to practice polygamy, and "No offence taken" against them of their Adulterous life styles - also according to Sharia Law. That means These Muslim Youths are "Untouchable".

****-WRONG. Yes, the punishment for adultery is being stoned to death but that is in extreme cases and is the same for men AND women. No one cuts anyone's throat. ***The "untouchable" concept is something you got mixed up on very apparently. That would be the Indian caste system. No wonder you dont have anything right.****

4. Again Miskha's problem is- that is very serious one. I explain (PLEASE DO!) - If she married an Muslim of North African origin, as according to their custom, Their wives are usually offered to have "Female Circumcision", I wander whether Lady Muskha, was been offered of to have such procedure?

-WRONG AGAIN. WOW! Goodness, you are on a role here! First of all, I am not of N.African descent. I am Muslim and so is my husband. My entire family is Muslim. What procedure? No one circumcises women in Islam. Where did you get this? THERE IS NO SUCH THING. I am so sorry to disappoint you...

My main point here- In Muslim society, Their women are suffering so much of unthinkable Dimension, and they even cannot get out of this Sharia System, because of their of retribution, and fear of death."

See the biggest problem you have here is that you are confused between culture and religion. MAJORITY of what you describe are cultural limitations set for women. This is usually as a result of being from a specific region...like the East, Middle East, etc. Religion has nothing to do with it. Learn to differentiate. These things you describe are unheard of in my family. And we are not new Muslims. Muslim women are among the most highly educated women today! Step out of your homes, go and talk to them. You will find the majority of them to be intelligent and successful. Successful not because they are making loads of money...successful because they are working, raising kids, running homes, earning a paycheck, cooking and being Muslims...all at the same time.

nuslim immigrants to america

What does this immigration mean for the U.S.? To begin with, immigrants from the Middle East are one of the most highly educated groups in America, with almost HALF having a bachelor's degree, compared with 28 percent of natives; these education levels should make it easier for them to assimilate. Their average income is higher than that of natives. Another positive sign is their high rates of citizenship: HALF are U.S. citizens, compared with 38 percent of immigrants overall.

http://pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf

STUDY ON MUSLIMS BY PEW GROUP

mischka- dont worry about these posts-

ignore the extremely ridiculous accusations based on ignorance and fear of rationalist here
that is a sick imagination at work

father inlaws having sex with daughters?

hes only trying to draw you into an argument, which is the hallmark of a hypocrite

dont be a fool to argue with fools

peace sis take it easy and dont get drawn into it with such obviously provocative lies
maybe he just wants attention

Mishka's Real problem:-
The lady claimed she born in America, And her Husband is immigrant and living in America for last 15 Years [ as Miskha has given information about herself in her blog].
The lady should realize that problem starts Here:-
1.Marrying Muslim, means Your have enter in sharia law system. This system governs women of all their womanly lives, that means she loses all liberty, she has to surrender to her master- Husband, to accepts master's all diabolical whims. Example- Master can flog his wife when he feels to do so. Women has to do all domestic works plus all required pampering slavishly her master.
2. The Muslim women Must bring children to create little Muslim Brigade thus increasing Muslim population. If by chance any woman is infertile or some how can not conceive, then according to Sharia law that dictates that Her husband's father can copulate her to make her pregnant. Again if that fail, She faces TALAK, and in extreme case She could face Sharia Law-Death Penalty.
3. Infertile women are subjected to all sorts of tortures, and they usually lose their social rights and status, and literally isolated from Mainstream Muslim society. But Muslim men are protected by Sharia laws, and they can not be branded as infertile or impotent ones. This is total irony and most obnoxious Sharia law system, we see today.
3. If any women considered as an infidel or having an affair with other person, then she has committed adultery and she will be punished by death. any young Muslim Girl has developed a relation with a young non-Muslim person, then that it self an serious offence, punishable by death. So what usually happens to that ill fated Muslim girl? Her throat will be cut by her own relatives, either by her own brother or her Uncles. In the mean time Young Muslim men are allowed to practice polygamy, and "No offence taken" against them of their Adulterous life styles - also according to Sharia Law. That means These Muslim Youths are "Untouchable".
4. Again Miskha's problem is- that is very serious one. I explain- If she married an Muslim of North African origin, as according to their custom, Their wives are usually offered to have "Female Circumcision", I wander whether Lady Muskha, was been offered of to have such procedure?
My main point here- In Muslim society, Their women are suffering so much of unthinkable Dimension, and they even cannot get out of this Sharia System, because of their of retribution, and fear of death. Muslim society is running on the basis of FEAR, and PRJUDICE, and DEATH. Muslim World is a dangerous World.

Anonymous - you are a hater. Plain and simple. Story of your life is that you hate Islam. Here's an idea: you dont matter.

Arif - you sound like you were just too lazy to pray five times a day. It also seems as if you might have some sort of a complex. You dont feel good enough to speak to God?

"To now say that its problems are due to the extremists is to perpetuate a lie."

It IS NOT a lie. There is no order...everything has been hijacked by greedy politicians. Dont tell me you really believe what you wrote.

"A pure Muslim Homeland ruled by the laws of the Koran and Sunna is what they wanted. They GOT it, they ruled it, and they ruined it."

Thats the problem. We didnt GET it. We didnt rule it. We didnt get to make it...let alone ruin it.

"The sons marry girls from back home and bring the daughters over. Ironically Britain has second/third generation Muslims, many of their sons still prefer to marry a local woman from the "homeland", leaving the poor "corrupted" Western born Muslima to fend for herself in the West."

No poor "corrupted" Muslima here. I was born here, raised here and married here. My husband was here for fifteen years before he even met me. I dont know what kind of people you have met.

well i dont feel shame for having an opinion on poetry abe- as i always will have strong opinions on ar and poetry- but i do apologize for offending you personally-

as for " His extreme Pakistani brothers would like (in a righteous and holy way of course) to remove his head from his shoulders."

as he is writing pretty voluminously, with his picture posted- that is actually a pretty dramatic supposition, as he doesnt seem to think so or he wouldnt post his picutre.

thts an inteesting site, and ive been there before-
but as you see- it actually did spawn some islamophobia- so my critique wasnt that far off

So. when are you going to propose that immigrants from India be allowed free entry in to Pakistan so Pakistan can also enjoy the thrill of having large numbers of people who won't learn their language or assimilate their culture? Would this be a good thing for Pakistan? If not, why is it a good thing in America?
When are Mexican immigrants, who claim all the good they have done in America, will agitate for free access to Mexico for migrant people from Guatemala and Honduras? If this is not agood thing, then why are their immigrants into America good for my country?
Talk about hypocrisy! All the immigrant proponents I know do nothing to encourage immigration to their former country- only to America.
It's not the freedom. It's not the citizinship. It's the cash, stupid!

Sorry, I should have written: "At least, Huntington does NOT claim to be an inter-faith broker."

As usual, Mr Patel shares with us his nonsensical thoughts.

First, he asks us to listen to a beautiful song that applauds diversity and praises immigrants.

But immediately, he quotes Samuel Huntington, a notorious xenophobe, famous for his decades-long rant against Spanish-speaking immigrants.

Huntington is a fundamentalist that strictly adheres to his own logic: Protestantism.

Patel is another fundamentalist who strictly adheres to his own logic: Islam.

At least, Huntington does claim to be an inter-faith broker.

Correction Mr Eboo Patel.
In 2001 summer at Bradford & Old ham> the riots were not between south Asian Youths and White Youths, But actual riots happened between Pakistani youths and Other Asians [non Muslims] and English Youth mix. How it started? That particular night [the onset pint of infamous Riot] in Oldham started in a suburban area- local English pub, where A Hindu Marriage Party was going on Full swing and where lots of local white Youths were invited and all [ Hindus, non Muslims and whites] became revellers. As the night progressed, Local Pakistani Youths started gathering around that pub, couldn't tolerate this "Mix-party", and they [ the Pak-Muslims] became jealous and very hateful. Then Pakistani Muslims Youths started throwing stones and then set on fire to that pub, as a result whole pub was totally gutted. Few whites sustained severe burns, and one Hindu youth probably died in Hospital later. That pub incident was the genesis of Bradford and Old ham's infamous riots and Pakistani Muslims were responsible.
In England- Non Muslim Asians and Afro- Caribbeans are well integrated in contemporary British society. Unfortunately These Muslims, Specially Pakistani Muslims remained Isolated [by their own choice and their anti social activities and behaviours].
In America same thing is happening. Here All colour and creeds, most of all religions are in the process of inclusive Integration, except Muslims [ that includes- Asian Muslims, Arabic Muslims, African Muslims, Afro- Caribbeans and some home grown Muslims].
The problem with Mr.Eboo Patel who lost healthy logic, lost the capacity to judge what is right and what is wrong. This Author also lost the foresight of distinguishing truth from False.
I am really feel sorry for this chap. His pathetic attempt to glorify His brand of Islam, proved to be non starter.

you see abe? it inspired prejudice

i make alot of effort on these boards to counter xenophobia and hatred-

this peom is inspiring arif here (who is known on these boards as vehemently anti-muslim) to feel justified in more muslim-bashing and using this poem as proof.

that is what i meant about the responsivbility of the poet.

i had nothing to say about this post on the other board abe-

but if you look at even ONE of yesterdays news posts, you'll see it is islamphobic and extremely hateful over and over again-

go take a look- youll see post after post after post of patient and informative responses ive made to others- without the necessity of ever insulting anothers beliefs-

i extol peace and fairness- not extremism

we have the right to criticize ourselves and our own people-
but fostering xenophobia (and despite its souce, the poem does more harm than good)
is just irresponsible

-

Today I Weep;
Does the weeper still live in Pakistan or is he weeping in suburbia USA?

Pakistan is a good example of how Islam fails; this is the country that was built entirely with Islam by Islam for Islam. To now say that its problems are due to the extremists is to perpetuate a lie. When the British were ruling the sub-continent Gandhi was working for self rule for all the "natives". However, there was a movement already in place by the Muslims, they wanted a separate Muslim Homeland, and they did not want to be ruled or have anything to do with the Hindus. They (Muslims) refused to live and rule alongside Gandhi.

A pure Muslim Homeland ruled by the laws of the Koran and Sunna is what they wanted. They GOT it, they ruled it, and they ruined it. Fortunately the Jews were many countries apart to blame for their follies. While India was democratically electing one leader after another, Pakistan saw a slew of dictators and corrupt politicians. Pakistan is destroying itself and the sole weapon they use to accomplish this is Islam. Every leader is not Islamic enough, the people want more Islam.

Failed countries and economies are a reflection of its people, bad governments are a reflection of its bad people, bad people are a result of bad ideologies, and bad ideologies of societies are gained from its predominant religions. We all know what the Islamic Republic of Pakistan's religion is.

The strongest and most dominant organized political group of Pakistan today is what the uninformed call “extremists”; what they are is true Muslims.

The privileged educate their sons/daughters to go out to the West once their basic education is complete. The unfortunate stay back and grow more Islam. The Man who coined the name Pakistan never set foot in Pakistan as long as he lived; he immigrated to Britain while his Pakistan burned. How can any country survive when their educated young leave the country? Every politician, General and including the Mullahs who can, will send their sons to the West for "settling". The sons marry girls from back home and bring the daughters over. Ironically Britain has second/third generation Muslims, many of their sons still prefer to marry a local woman from the "homeland", leaving the poor "corrupted" Western born Muslima to fend for herself in the West. If she (the British Muslima) marries its usually to grant citizenship to a "needy" relative in "Taliban Pakistan".

These are the immigrants who demand assimilation from their host countries, if the hosts refuse then they are deemed racists.

I didn't get very far into the essay until I clicked on "American windows" They look real expensive. Isn't that where donations to churches end up rather than charity, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked etc? Not very charitable is it?

http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul for Devil loves stained glass windows. Gifts to God are really to make Devil happy is what that says. Makes sense. Sacrifices to the gods was almost always to appease them.

God probably comes from ancient gods that were most all devils like storms, floods, fire, volcanoes erupting, that sort of thing and no love to speak of at all. Jesus, son of God changed all that? Jesus was fathered by the being in the ball of fire, the one Moses made the deal with, sold his soul to recover from the crime of murder??

so then who is yesterdays news abe?

if its the same person, i still ownder why they are pushing so much islamophobia on these boards

Thomas Jefferson is The Prophet and Founder of the United States of America. Hamilton got what he deserved.

as an artist
(not in the league wit those you mentioned) i may be biased but your article seems spot on an you unlike many who expouse great words you actually put some qantitatively and qualitatively measureabe examples to back up your assertions. i have learned a lot subconsiously by beeing an avid reader of mitchner, tom clancy joseph wambauh, and frank slaughter (the making of a surgeon) and many others that have discovered the lesson you obviously have... that information can be true and entertaining. in real life i like my news presented with few theatrics...... i wonder how many people of the world have noticed that amrica, australia and 2 sum extent canada have been populated with peple other countrys deemed defects and undesireables. 2 me that says somthing either about other peoples opnions, or the value of a second or even a third chance in life or both. i was once a p[roud successfull store manager for a national corperation that was founded by a man who had been a hopeles helpless drunk and a failed dixie cup sales man when everyone used dixre cups for everything. his name was ray kroc... his company is mcdonalds and his widow if she is still alive is probally very geneous in givinf 2 the arts if i remember correctly

interestingly abe. many of the comments on this link echo my sympathies

This is the writer of "Today I Weep":

Anwaar Hussain is an ex-F-16 fighter pilot from Pakistan Air Force. A Masters in Defense and Strategic Studies from Quaid-e-Azam University Islamabad, he now resides in UAE. He started writing as a hobby not very far back and has, since then, published a series of articles in Defense Journal, South Asia Tribune and a host of other web portals. Other than international affairs, Anwaar Hussain has written extensively on religious and political issues that plague Pakistan.

http://www.paktribune.com/news/index.shtml?192652

". Victoria saw it because she accused the person who posted it of editing the AP feed. It was yesterday the Pakistani professionals went to the streets. She knows that. "

no, actually i didnt know that at all-

so you're saying the author is yesterdays news?
who everyday on the islam and violence thread posts violent muslim ancdotes from all over the world?

some many years old?

this person has been spreading islamophobia and hatred for a long time-

THAT is who wrote this?

he spends all his days posting the most slanderous and disconnected anti-muslim posts

smite the necks of the infidels until you ovecome them fully

every single article posted portrays muslims in the most hateful ugly degenerate manner-

and not just pakistanis, they are years old and from all over the world

i have a strong suspicion who this poster is now, as he just came out on that board in his real name with the same complaints

but suspicion is not proof- so ill refrain from naming a name
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/2007/04/islam_and_violence/comments.html

Forgive me if I don’t applaud this touching ode to diversity when it comes from a guy who swears allegiance to an ideology – Islam -- that regards Jew and Christians as less than human, regards women as property, and calls for the killing, conquering and subjugation of all non-Muslims. Anyone who’s BS-detector isn’t going off wildly right now needs to check its batteries.

This is another lame attempt by a cultural and demographic jihadi to draw a false parallel between criticism of Islam and “racism.”

1)Islam is not a race, it is an ideology, and ideologies are perfectly fair game for scrutiny in a free society.

2)FACT: Islam calls for the imposition of barbaric Sharia law – not democratic, constitutional US law -- all over the world.

3)THEREFORE: Anyone who identifies themselves as a Muslim is consciously, deliberately identifying themselves with an ideology that calls for the overthrow of the US Constitutional system.

WHY WHY WHY then are we letting these people into this country? The only rational thing to do is keep Muslims out. That is not an anti-immigrant stance, nor is it a racist one; it is a pro-Democracy, common-sense stance. During WW2, would we have let in a bunch of card-carrying Nazis?

it seems odd to express love of your country with such hateed for your countrymen today i weep-

and the odd pro-western crusader reference is very strange-
why would a pakistani call for a saladin?

i thought before i made my comments-

its ridiculous to make an accusation that i support extremists becuase i dislike such an overlfowing of hatred and bitterness

to me poets have some repsonsibility

i cant insult a man whose identity isnt even given

you said he loves his people and that may be so-
but all i saw was hatred for his people and thats a shame-

its my opinion, its a critique not a fabrication

but it doesnt matter what the POV is- i have the same problem with any who use their voice to complain about apathy or silence, while offering no positive or constructive thoughts

any can complain - if silence is the problem- tell your friend to use his prodigious talents to speak and to offer the alternative

poery like this only inspires anger
ask him to use his sorrow to inspire a higher feeling
i really feel this way about art, poetry and the responsibility of the poet to be a guide for peace-
a poet is trying to share what they feel, and have the audience feel it too-

ask him to take it a step further into the light

"what kind of hypocrite poet weeps while hating and blaming their countrymen while celebrating the western world?

poetry to encourage prejudice

of ourse, it makes a great deal of sense if one imagines it's written by a westerner who imagines the pakistanis are waiting for saladin.

crusader references in a "pakistani" accusation litany"

Victoria's post deeply offends me. She has denigrated a man who deeply loves his country and laments over its losses. She sides with the extremeist and turns her back to the moderate.

I found this post on another topic two days ago. Victoria saw it because she accused the person who posted it of editing the AP feed. It was yesterday the Pakistani professionals went to the streets. She knows that. Besides this piece was written long ago and is almost prophetic.

It is easy to find the identity of the man who wrote "Today I Weep", but I won't identify him. His extreme Pakistani brothers would like (in a righteous and holy way of course) to remove his head from his shoulders.

But to speak such harsh and cruel words against him is despicable. It is total fabrication. She should feel shame in bearing false witness and hoping to lead others astray. He is a fierce and tender soul who knows and loves his country and his people.

The current immigration debate is not about whether we should or should not let immigrants migrate and become citizens. Is anyone really listening? The debate is about immigrants being required to learn immigrate legally, learning the language, paying taxes and swearing loyalty to our constitution. We are all for immmigration. We simply need to keep it legal and require immigrants to be citizens. All this bluster and pervasive deception about anyone being anti-immigration is crass and sophomoric. We need to grow up and have a real debate about real issues.

With profound respect for the good will expressed in Mr. Patel's praise for America's immigrant society, I have to point out that he is dead wrong about the source of the United States' successful experiment in establishing a country in which diverse people live together in relative harmony. He has bought in toto the multicultural ethos, which is a bunch of horse manure. And if you don't understand the true wellspring of America's success, you could contribute to its demise. Get it right, or we will perish.

Mr. Patel commits the classic multicultural mistake of getting the cart before the horse. America did not become great because immigrants came to this country and transformed our Founding Father’s original experiment in liberty under law into something great. The institutions and spirit of the Founding Fathers established the basis for country’s greatness from its inception. All those waves of immigration have not altered the original blueprint one iota. None of those alien cultures have contributed squat to what the Founding Fathers had already established. Immigrants had to learn to live according to the precepts already in place. In short, immigrants had to learn how to be Americans, with the original Americans as their guide. Immigrants as individuals have contributed mightily to our greatness. Immigrant cultures have not amounted to a pitcher of warm spit.

A handful of white Anglo-Saxon males set force on this continent in 1776 everything anybody ever needed to know about how to create and nurture a successful nation. The blueprint for the ages is set forth in five documents: the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, the Federalist Papers, and the writings of Alexander Hamilton. Read those documents, absorb their message, and you have the makings of a great society. Nothing that has washed up on these shores since has altered one iota the principles found in those documents. The idea that America had to be fleshed out by the Irish, the Italians, the Poles, the Huegenots, Hottentots, or whatnots is just plain horse manure. It’s a myth created by immigrants and their misguided multicultural allies to abrogate for themselves a role they never played.

America’s greatness allowed it to become diverse. Diversity did not make America great. If you believe otherwise, please tell me, for example, what the Irish brought with them that altered the principles in those founding documents. Point to me the Italian component that finally set America on the path to greatness. Show me the Polish legacy without which America would have failed. Tell me what Hispanics had to learn about Irish culture before they could participate in the American dream. Or what aspect of Polish culture caused Chinese immigrants to say “Eureka! Now that I have this, I can become a true American.”

All those people had but to look back to the primal sources bequeathed us by that handful of white Anglo-Saxon Protestant males to learn how to become Americans and how to nurture that legacy so they could pass it on intact to the next generation. Those five documents established the freedoms that allowed diversity to happen. Cross-culturalization did not amount to a hill of beans.

Immigrants leave their native cultures because their native culture is a failure. I am mystified why our politically correct multiculturalists preach the gospel that the minute those immigrants arrive in America, the first thing they should do is start worshipping their failed culture. They need to shed that culture and learn how to be Americans, according to the precepts set forth in those five founding documents.

With profound respect for the good will expressed in Mr. Patel's praise for America's immigrant society, I have to point out that he is dead wrong about the source of the United States' successful experiment in establishing a country in which diverse people live together in relative harmony. He has bought in toto the multicultural ethos, which is a bunch of horse manure. And if you don't understand the true wellspring of America's success, you could contribute to its demise. Get it right, or we will perish.

Mr. Patel commits the classic multicultural mistake of getting the horse before the cart. America did not become great because immigrants came to this country and transformed our Founding Father’s original experiment in liberty under law into something great. The institutions and spirit of the Founding Fathers established the basis for country’s greatness from its inception. All those waves of immigration have not altered the original blueprint one iota. None of those alien cultures have contributed squat to what the Founding Fathers had already established. Immigrants had to learn to live according to the precepts already in place. In short, immigrants had to learn how to be Americans, with the original Americans as their guide. Immigrants as individuals have contributed mightily to our greatness. Immigrant cultures have not amounted to a pitcher of warm spit.

A handful of white Anglo-Saxon males set force on this continent in 1776 everything anybody ever needed to know about how to create and nurture a successful nation. The blueprint for the ages is set forth in five documents: the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, the Federalist Papers, and the writings of Alexander Hamilton. Read those documents, absorb their message, and you have the makings of a great society. Nothing that has washed up on these shores since has altered one iota the principles found in those documents. The idea that America had to be fleshed out by the Irish, the Italians, the Poles, the Huegenots, Hottentots, or whatnots is just plain horse manure. It’s a myth created by immigrants and their misguided multicultural allies to abrogate for themselves a role they never played.

America’s greatness allowed it to become diverse. Diversity did not make America great. If you believe otherwise, please tell me, for example, what the Irish brought with them that altered the principles in those founding documents. Point to me the Italian component that finally set America on the path to greatness. Show me the Polish legacy without which America would have failed. Tell me what Hispanics had to learn about Irish culture before they could participate in the American dream. Or what aspect of Polish culture caused Chinese immigrants to say “Eureka! Now that I have this, I can become a true American.”

All those people had but to look back to the primal sources bequeathed us by that handful of white Anglo-Saxon Protestant males to learn how to become Americans and how to nurture that legacy so they could pass it on intact to the next generation. Those five documents established the freedoms that allowed diversity to happen. Cross-culturalization did not amount to a hill of beans.

Immigrants leave their native cultures because their native culture is a failure. I am mystified why our politically correct multiculturalists preach the gospel that the minute those immigrants arrive in America, the first thing they should do is start worshipping their failed culture. They need to shed that culture and learn how to be Americans, according to the precepts set forth in those five founding documents.

Amazing -- people who are against immigration are bigots?! . . . I thought this attack rhetoric where the speaker or writer knows all about his opponent was the stuff of George Bush. . . . . . How about OVERPOPULATION!!!

Have you ever noticed that not one news media article or one Presidential candadite has dared even mention the word. Everything from global warming to resource depletion to overcrowing in our cities, etc. can be attributed in a very large part to overpopulation . . . but let's invite in more -- and from countries that believe in very large families. 12 million illegals? Heck in twenty years that same 12 million will be 40 million.

OVERPOPULATION, the unspeakable issue.

Solution for Pakistan.

But,before something,let me respond to
TODAY I WEEP.
If you dont change *your head*,you will weep much more and longer.
Lets stop *empty words* and *sophistry*,poem,crusaders etc.

Solution.Yes,Solution:
1-You shall unconditionally leave *Desert Cult*.You shall try to live like *human being*(I accept,it is a *difficult work*,but you shall try)
2-You shall leave *150 times worship in a month*,but you shall work 150 hours in a month.
3-You shall leave *penis cutting*,circumcision.
4-You shall stop *torture to your own body*,fasting.
5-You shall not celebrate *Festival of Beheading*,December 20-23.*Holiday of Sacrifice* is e *terror*.
6-*Dress* is very,very,very important *matter*.If you dont dress up as *human being*,you can not be *civilized men*.Someones dont grasp and understand this.Yes,you shall wear *trousers* and *jacket*,Pakistani women *skirt* and *t-shirt*.Of course,no chain on her head.
7-You shall drink *wine*,*beer* and of course *whisky*
8-You shall close all *madrasa*(center of terror).You shall go to *College*,not to *madrasa*
9-You shall change *the flag*.As you know *dark green* is a *repulsive color* and you shall remove *crescent*.
10-*Urdu* is a *nonsense language*.You shall speak,in your daily life,*world language*English.
11-You shall not be annoyed what I write.

Pakistan(and Bengladash) is a *fictive state*,but you shall create *genuine* one.Have a good luck.

Assimilation of Muslims anywhere will depend on their willingness to correct the flaws in Islam. Until the corrections are made, they will always be suspect of potential terrorist acts

speaking of our confused leaders

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/05/AR2007110500204_pf.html

heres dick cheney calling chavez the leader of peru

http://ourlatinamerica.blogspot.com/2007/11/video-of-day-cheneys-geographical-gaffe.html

This is the best article on WashPo today hands down. And right behind it, is Robert Novaks, "Carter's Clarity, Bush's Befuddlement."

i cannot imagine who wrote that poem-
for every tear supposedly shed, there is a hateful accusation accompanying its shedding-

an endless litany of complaints agaisnt the apathy of people

if all pakistanis are so inhumanely indifferent and silent, why are their jails overflowing with lawyers and activists and protestors?

are we really supposed to believe that a pakistani would hold all of their own people in such low contempt- while applauding western accomplishments at the same time?

"the West is busy conquering the same universe, solving its riddles, harnessing the nature for the benefit of mankind and finding that time is their only competitor...I weep because nobody seems to care that the only, repeat only, way to walk tall and strong in the comity of nations is to come at par with the West in education, technology and economy."

what kind of hypocrite poet weeps while hating and blaming their countrymen while celebrating the western world?

poetry to encourage prejudice

of ourse, it makes a great deal of sense if one imagines it's written by a westerner who imagines the pakistanis are waiting for saladin.

crusader references in a "pakistani" accusation litany?

do you think we're idiots?

"And one of the their dreams was to attract people of all backgrounds from all over the world to build a nation together. They didn't want clones, they wanted contributions from a diverse array of human beings."

No, Franklin was complaining about Germans settling in Pennsylvania, and the Cajuns in Louisiana were forced to let go their language.

Today my grief is a sea— a fathomless, boundless sea. In this dark expanse drifts my soul…aimless, doleful and in mortal pain. Today I weep, unreservedly, unashamedly and in gushing torrents for Pakistan my fatherland. Today I weep for thee.

Today I weep with grief for Pakistan of flowering fields and blooming orchards, that wondrous land of jasmines and daffodils in freshest blossom, of tall snow capped mountains with rose fragrant valleys. I weep at your slow death at the hands of boisterous evil. I weep at your bloodied countenance and contorted face. Today I weep.

Today I weep for the demons of extremism that are stalking your splendid fields and farms. I weep for none can see that these monsters come clothed as messiahs bearing gifts steeped in poison. Nurtured on a diet of hate, these are now out of control. Rejuvenating in each bloodbath, they are consuming innocent humans at will. And while these demons have taken our nation on a guided tour of hell, the good men continue to wallow in their deafening silence. Today I weep.

Today I weep for the hapless victims. I weep for the unsung songs of the dead, for their unlived lives, for their untold stories. I weep for the loss of innocent souls whom no amount of crying or wailing can now bring back. I weep for scores of disabled whose limbs were torn asunder and will now hobble on ugly crutches through the rest of their miserable existences. Today I weep as I gaze upon your once promising past and then the present full of pain and then again upon the ominous unknown towards which you are headed. Today I weep as I find myself unable to soar above this dark abyss, weighted down with the mute silence of my good countrymen as I am. Today I weep.

Today I weep for this blood-smeared mournful land that you have become, marooned in the blazing desert, torn and tormented, plundered and ravaged, disfigured by the scars of myriad wounds, tears dropping from your dolorous, longing eyes. Today I weep.

Today I weep in the full knowledge that in vain are my bitter tears. In vain and useless because man the man-eating beast is on rampage in your bosom in the name of God while my good countrymen sit in meek acquiescence to the evil sermonizing from the pulpit. With their heads bowed, they listen to bigotry, intolerance and oppression spewed out in the name of God. Today I weep.

Today I weep for even as these lines are being written, somewhere at the fringes of humanity, in some dark recesses devoid of fresh air and sunlight, ominous creatures huddle together planning more massacre as the good men sway in trance to the bellowing from the pulpit. Today I weep.

Today I weep at the festering wounds in your body the gangrene in which is alive and spreading fast. Today I weep because your sons who could cure these boils with air and light now sit cowering in fear in their homes hoping that time somehow will pass healing all your injuries. I weep for they fail to realize that the time to break out of our collective apathy and lead the nation from its present state of gloom and despair is now or never. Today I weep.

Today I weep because my countrymen think that their religion is just about prayers and worship. I weep for they forget that a significant portion of their Book deals with purification of self, interaction with others, knowledge of the universe and what is contained therein. I weep because they do not see that while they are busy loathing the West, the West is busy conquering the same universe, solving its riddles, harnessing the nature for the benefit of mankind and finding that time is their only competitor. I weep because my countrymen counter the West by suicide bombing, beheading of innocent human beings, issuing Fatwas to that effect, continuing to pray for Divine intervention and by hating the whole West for the stupidity of just a few of their leaders. I weep because nobody seems to care that the only, repeat only, way to walk tall and strong in the comity of nations is to come at par with the West in education, technology and economy. Today I weep.

Today I weep for the once wonderful madarasah that was supposed to be a bastion of knowledge and a guiding light to the world where every order of learning from mathematics to science, from medicine to astronomy, from philosophy to jurisprudence were taught, where great Muslim luminaries such as Al-Beruni, Ibn-e-Sina and Ibn-e-Khuldoon produced timeless works is now being used to mislead innocent Muslims by promoting intolerance, hatred and violence. I weep because from its podium and the pulpit, the so called clerics are inciting adherents to kill innocent people, while singing sweet lullabies of their marvelous past. I weep because we are told to keep hugging past glories to our chests and remain prostate in prayers waiting for a Saladin to appear and restore us to our rightful destiny. Today I weep.

Today I weep for the horrendous indifference of the good people, for the hush, impotence and disappearance of moderate voices from across the national scene. Today I weep over the past three decades that have seen Pakistan navigating a course strewn with blood, bones, and bodies of innocent victims. I weep for I have witnessed firsthand -the whole nation slowly caging itself into an obscenity of horror, pushed by the hands of decent men who remain quiet when they should speak. Today I weep.

Today I weep, O country mine, for each new pain the beasts inflict upon you. My breast is torn again and again as you reel from the countless wounds inflicted by the savage hordes. I weep in the sure knowledge that neither God nor fate had destined you to become this vale of sorrow and anguish that you have now become. I weep for I cannot see any time soon that dawn will rise and put an end to your murk and gloom. Not unless we the silent ones arise from our slumber and pour sunshine into your stricken heart that you may burnish with new light, my Fatherland. And that I do not see. Today I weep.

Today I weep for I see nary an effort to get up and start carving tunnels of hope though the dark mountains of despondency and disillusionment that we have allowed coming up all around us by remaining a silent majority. I weep because the dark clouds and the deep fog of extremism now engulf our communities from all around. I weep for I cannot see any where on the horizons the radiant stars of happiness, harmony and prosperity that should have been shining by now over our great nation with all their scintillating beauty. Today I weep.

Today I weep for the thousands that have paid for our apathy with their lives and the thousands more that surely will because we continue to remain silent. I weep for this harvest of hate season after season. I weep for our failure to face squarely the extremists who sell their dark dogmas as superior to enlightened reason. I weep for my countrymen who fail to see through the naked, twisted, mindless logic of the bigot. I weep at the silence of the good men who have brought this about. I weep at the impotent look in their dead eyes as they gaze on at the slowly erecting sorrowful tomb of Pakistani nation. I weep at their terror-stricken question that they ask each other in hushed tones….what happened to Pakistan?

YOU happened to Pakistan.

Pakistan, I weep for thee.

I won't let you forget the Irish in the melting pot of immigration. Do they carry conflicts and the results of war with them, to a new land? No they do not. They do bring however, the memory of pain in the old country. On a motorcycle tour of Alaska, the harley and I stopped at a rural pub. 'Your accent, from Ireland?'
Yes, Belfast. 'Why the hell do they march up there?'
Been marchin' 200 years. 'Why do they...'
Your catholic priest and his little boys.

Here is a song for ya: The Orange Nurse

I met an orange man, damn if it wore a skirt
Lee's (Leon Uris)Trinity, a book reveals the hurt
Never felt such hate, to think they procreate
Priests & boys it smiled and proudly state

O'Connor, Collins, McCain and Donahue
Blue eyes and red hair, a womans point of view
A man he seeks to find his island roots
Earl Grey (tea) @ 2, no bloody boots

Black Irish, Sinn Fein, IRA
rotten eggs, tomatoes, they'll make your day
prod's and mic's, the Brits, they dominate
saints and leprechauns, Ireland's freedom fate

March on boy's, straight into the deepest hell
That pedo priest and you might share that eternal deep black cell
Polish pope, his successor & the emerald isle
Gay bishops, God help you, it's more your style

Twasn't in the Erin, but the good old USA
They spit in your eye, you've got the freedom to walk away.

I fired up my harley and road on down the road. The wind filled my lungs and blew the hatred from my leather jacket. Come to America, the melting pot needs stirring. Leave the violence in the old country.

It's not surprise to learn that Patel is a Steve Earl fan. As Earle said himself:

"I'm somewhat to the left of Mao."

Which puts him to the right of Patel and the rest of the Post staff.

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/capitalgames?pid=84

Also it takes courage for what you've said. And you know how those who hate liberty and freedom feel, when truth is spoken to them.

RON PAUL 2008!!!

Talk about immigration and the racists come out of the woodwork spewing their stereotypes about Mexicans. Why can't Americans understand that no matter how many walls they build and how inpenerable they think they are, immigration from the South will continue. It's a human and economic reality that is not just the fault of Latinos.

Set your racism aside and be practical. Social Security is about to go bust. Give immigrants legal work permits, ID them with DNA and retinal scans and tax the hell out of them like the government does every other American. Making English the only official language and railing against programs to teach immigrants English only aggravates the situation.

But no, the redneck Christians would loose one of their launching pads for hate while looking the other way as they enjoy the fruits (and vegetables) of their Republican business buddies who exploit immigrant workers with low wages and no benefits. Whine about their medical costs while you save money because crooked businesses don't have to pay them health care. America sucks. It has become an evil, hateful, racist, warmongering Christian extremist theocracy. I'm glad I'm one of the people lucky enough to afford to stay in Mexico.

Wow, simply breathtaking.

Mr. Patel, you have a God-given talent to write, and I 100% agree with you.

Immigrants nowadays, thanks to the Republican party platform (a Party I seriously want to see go extinct in the near future, AMERICANS STOP VOTING FOR THEM UNLESS YOU LOVE WAR, DEFICITS, CLASS WARFARE, BUSINESS HEGEMONY, TORTURE, CIVIL-LIBERTIES CURTAILED) are scapegoated.

This article gives us a humanistic viewpoint of a group of people that so many arrogant, trash-talking, really downright racist Republicans can not ever tolerate.

Being a Muslim yourself, I am reminded that I have never met a Muslim in America that wasn't genuinely a good, helpful, honest person to the core. Too bad they are not in large enough numbers like Hispanics, where most Americans can actually speak and learn from.

how´s that wall coming along between the usa and mexico. what is the usa learning from isreal about electronic and other kinds of walls. and in the words of the jipper of the american people: 'dubaya, tear down this wall´. don't expect much progress and brotherly love on the immagration front from the bastion of liberty, freedom, and corporate welfare.

how´s that wall coming along between the usa and mexico. what is the usa learning from isreal about electronic and other kinds of walls. and in the words of the jipper of the american people: 'dubaya, tear down this wall´. don't expect much progress and brotherly love on the immagration front from the bastion of liberty, freedom, and corporate welfare.

how´s that wall coming along between the usa and mexico. what is the usa learning from isreal about electronic and other kinds of walls. and in the words of the jipper of the american people: 'dubaya, tear down this wall´. don't expect much progress and brotherly love on the immagration front from the bastion of liberty, freedom, and corporate welfare.

Yes we are a nation of immigrants. Yes legal immigration is honorable, and desireable, and strengthens our nation.

But the financial remittances sent out of the nation by illegal aliens, and the crime and use of our public services of illegal aliens over the last 200 years total but a fraction of the massive financial exodus, and pressing on our economy today.

When the wall on our suthern border is inpenetrable, reality will sink in. The reality that it is ok to charge, and pay employees 300% more for lawn care services because those who can afford it will still pay - but american citizens will do the work. The reality that illegal aliens working as drywall hangers have usurped citizen workers in that trade across nearly all construction firms in America, with the labor price difference going straight to the developer, and it will stop. The citizens will go back to work. The reality that technology such as drip irrigation, no-till planting, and picking machines need perfecting - or just plain installation - in American farming. The reality that children of illegal aliens are clogging our primary schools, making it more difficult to teach an english speaking class.

Illegal immigration is as much a detriment to America as legal immigration is a benefit to America. This is why remittances made by illegal aliens should be taxed at the rate of 50%.

Facts - not emotion - are required in this debate.

Interesting and troubling how mainstream media organizations focus exclusively on Mexican nationals regarding illegal immigration in the United States. An article by Rocío Rivadeneyra, "Do You See What I See? Latino Adolescents' Perceptions of the Images on Television" (July 2006), cited studies by Dixon and Linz (2002) and Greenberg, Heeter, and Burgoon (1983) in which they found that, "...Latinos in the news is likely to focus on them as a social problem, focusing on crime stories and the negative effect of immigration." Why is nothing reported about the other millions of undocumented immigrants (disparagingly referred to as illegals) from Canada, Australia, England, Ireland, Italy, Germany, and Slavic countries living in the U.S.? Do you hear or read about U.S. Border Patrol agents asking Whites who speak with foreign accents if they are in the country illegally? On the contrary, this country finds Australian, British, or French accents fascinating unlike people who have a Spanish inflection. Do you see immigration authorities stopping African Americans and Asian Americans on the street at will (racial profiling) and asking them if they are legally in the U.S.? The immigration issue is nothing more than political justification by white ethnocentrists to combat the perceived "Mexicanization/Latinization" of the U.S. Question: Who controls the nation's mass media and influences how society thinks and behaves? Answer: Whites, of course.

Assimilation of Muslims anywhere will depend on their williness to correct the flaws in Islam. Until the corrections are made, they will always be suspect of potential terrorist acts.

I admire your point of view and your eloquence in describing what will and must happen for human beings to survive

Fine article Eboo. Steve Earle is a terrific songwriter and "City of Immigrants" is no exception.

Immigration is one of the great strengths of this nation. It's illegal immigration (or invasion with an attitude of entitlement) of our existing country that is the issue. Let's not get those things confused. What ever happened to asking for permission to come in? What about standing in line like the people from other countries that don't have an adjoining border?

A melting pot that reflects all peoples has been our goal since our founding and yes, a huge strength of our country. But that isn't what has occurred in recent years.

We have completely lost control of our rights as citizens of a sovereign nation to determine the balance of our melting pot and are being told to accept the invasion of illegal immigrants and accused of racism for even suggesting this illegal invasion stop and let some assimilation occur.

The process of entry into the United States for many years has included and educational program of history, culture, values and the meaning of citizenship. The same occurs in other countries too. The invasion that has occurred has bypassed this step and we are paying a high price for it's omission.

Our laws must matter and be understood to be important. Starting off your stay in our country by breaking into the country, insisting on special treatment and immediate rights just because you came for a job is hardly behavior you'd want from anyone coming to your home.

Fine article Eboo. Steve Earle is a terrific songwriter and "City of Immigrants" is no exception.

Immigration is one of the great strengths of this nation. It's illegal immigration (or invasion with an attitude of entitlement) of our existing country that is the issue. Let's not get those things confused. What ever happened to asking for permission to come in? What about standing in line like the people from other countries that don't have an adjoining border?

A melting pot that reflects all peoples has been our goal since our founding and yes, a huge strength of our country. But that isn't what has occurred in recent years.

We have completely lost control of our rights as citizens of a sovereign nation to determine the balance of our melting pot and are being told to accept the invasion of illegal immigrants and accused of racism for even suggesting this illegal invasion stop and let some assimilation occur.

The process of entry into the United States for many years has included and educational program of history, culture, values and the meaning of citizenship. The same occurs in other countries too. The invasion that has occurred has bypassed this step and we are paying a high price for it's omission.

Our laws must matter and be understood to be important. Starting off your stay in our country by breaking into the country, insisting on special treatment and immediate rights just because you came for a job is hardly behavior you'd want from anyone coming to your home.

Perhaps Mr. Patel should write and tell us why Saudi Arabia will not allow churches in Mecca or anywhere else in Saudi Arabia. I realize that the Saudis are being obedient to prophet Muhammad who ruled that two "deens" or religions shall not exist in Muslim countries. Mr. Patel agrees with Muhammad.

CIAP: "Mexican speaking"?

All immigrant families assimilate in the U.S. It might take a generation, but it always happens. We are far different than Europe in that regard.

I was driving on the interstate the other day and had to use a rest area. There is a concrete pathway leading from the parking lot to the building with the rest rooms, with adequately manicured lawns on either side. Instead of using the lawn to set up their prayer mats, about 10 Muslims had set up their mats on the pathway and the rest of us had to walk around them on the lawn. It was beautiful day, sunny and warm and had the Muslims cared for non-Muslims they would have set up their mats on the grass. It is actions like that offend the rest of us who are taught to be civic minded and considerate. It is not racism.

"We have within our shores today the materials out of which we shall continue to build an even better home for liberty."
-Greatest Democratic President Ever, Franklin Roosevelt

Interesting post. The main problem is that this issue, the issue of illegal immigration - rather than legal immigration (that everyone agrees is good for the country) - will take all of us to compromise.

Unfortunately, with the red vs. blue and the screamers on cable TV "news" it is hard for Americans to agree on anything.

I'd encourage people to take a look at the 9500 Liberty project. These documentary film producers are filming and then uploading to You Tube some extremely raw and uncut discussions about illegal immigration in Northern Virginia.

http://www.youtube.com/9500Liberty?hpid=topnews

Regards,

Shaun Dakin
CEO and Founder
Citizens for Civil Discourse
StopPoliticalCalls.org

v

Mr. Patel

I must question the objectivity of your story here. You seem to throw the term "racist" around quite a bit. Surely you can understand how European people must feel as they watch their neighborhoods change drastically around them. They have welcomed immigrants for some time now and it is finally becoming apparent that many of the newcomers have no intention of assimilating. Of course this is going to cause a great deal of tension between locals and immigrants. Some people feel that the situation has reached critical mass. You can see this happening in many communities around the U.S. as well. Large influxes of foreign people are draining public resources and demanding special privileges. They expect Americans to adapt to their cultures instead of vice versa. Perhaps you could put a tiny bit of the responsibility on the migrants instead of labeling anyone hoping to protect their own way of life as "racist.”

There's nothing wrong with properly controlled immigration but when one country tries to totally take over another by flooding the country with one race, not with the intent of integrating but with the intent to take over then we have a problem.

We now have the Mexican elite setting up Mexican speaking schools in Oregon, run by teachers from Mexico, the kids who attend this school are the sons and daughters of the elite class in Mexico who plan to raise these kids to take over important positions in our government so that in 50 years they can have the same control here they now enjoy in Mexico.

Call this fear-mongering if you wish but it is happening.

it takes adversity to build a community.simply put, the english centric founding fathers bonded with the german,dutch and french settlers during the revolution. the irish were incorporated during the civil war. the italians and other southern europeans were finally accepted after the second world war. blacks finally began to get their due during the vietnam war. (anecdote here. an old former racist once told me the sweetest water he ever had was from a black mans canteen in some rice paddy in vietnam.)you'll never get a community by sing songs. you fight a common enemy and you can take the measure of each other.

When Islam is practiced the right way song, dance, and art are banned. A good Muslim will not listen to songs unless its a monotone rambling of the koran by a Kari (Koran reciting person). During Ramadan (the Muslim holy month) music is not listened to.

Muslim art is limited to calligraphy because Mohammed (the Muslim prophet) did not like men drawing what supposedly Allah created. Dance and music is severely prohibited, you will not find a religious Muslim man singing/listening to music; it just doesn't happen. There are those who will disagree but they either pretend they know Islam or simply have the urge to live.

Music, dance and art are very natural to human nature and happiness is linked to these three basic human instincts. The Shiia folk (the "lesser Muslims") however do indulge in art where the human/animal form may be drawn, therefore they are more cultured and lively than the boring Saudis. Societies where music and art are valued tend to be advanced hence the huge immigrant populations from dull Muslim countries. Alas when a Muslim immigrates he begins to hate the very music he once loved (trust me this happens). One of the biggest shocks Muslims face after immigrating to the West is the acceptance of Art/Music/Song/Dance and above all else simply the necked human body.

Now, I am not at all surprised why Steve Earl is liked by some Muslims; it's probably because of the John Walker Blues song. Other Muslims including my very Islamic uncle will never mind listening to Yusuf Islam aka Cat Stephens.

In authoring the Declaration and Our New Nation, America's Founder and Prophet, Thomas Jefferson, was "lighting out," with his Whig compatriots, from the "sivilization" of the "Ancien Régime" - the Old Sectarian Order of King and Pope. Thomas Paine made the effective argument in "Common Sense," triggering the Revolution, by neatly stating the nearly universally held belief in British North America, that "monarchy is the popery of government."

Our three primary Mottoes now include "Novus Ordo Seclorem," The New Secular Order. Mr. Jefferson was an anointed Prophet of the same Power we acknowledge as a Nation by "Annuit Coeptis."

Immigrants who believe Mr. Jefferson was not a prophet, and wish their ancient Babylonian pedophile priesthood to be in the ascendancy in America, assassinated his nephew Meriwether Lewis fleeing Rome's basecamp at St. Louis, and have gone on to assassinate Lincoln and Kennedy for thwarting the schemes of that which Mr. Jefferson recognized as "the real Anti-Christ."

Innocent immigration is truly a shared blessing.

Congressional cooperation with the organized invasion outlined in U.S. Conference of Roman Catholic Bishops' Document 199-7, "The National Pastoral Plan for Hispanic Ministry," in Spanish and English, is treason...by the same Fifth Column which financed Hitler (Knight of Malta Prescott Bush); assassinated John Kennedy six weeks after his NSAM263 ordered our military out of Rome's fiefdom of Vietnam (Roman Catholic Knight of Malta-led CIA, Nixon, GHW Bush); and committed 9-11(George W. Bush, et al).

Americanism is a civil religion. G-d shall bless us once again when The People rise up and cast the Anti-Christ into the Pit. Bush and Cheney tried, convicted and hanged for 9-11 and false war Treason is the start back to the Path of Righteousness.

The borders must be closed and the Roman hierarchy with its fascist plutocracy expropriated and banished. Immigrants wishing to be true heirs of the Whig Utopians who Founded America are welcome to stay. The shibboleths are clear: E Pluribus Unum - racism is not allowed, We are One, the false elite is dead; Novus Ordo Seclorem - No King and No Pope, Reason Rules that Truth and Justice Prevail; Annuit Coeptis - Divine Providence Blesses Our Endeavors - Our Endeavors Must be Righteous, Death for Treason, Expropriation of wealth gained by Treason or Misprision of Treason. The Roman Catholics on the Supreme Court who unconstitutionally appointed the closet-queen, draft-dodging traitor of 9-11 must be impeached and removed.

Dear Eboo,
That song is amazing!!! Thanks for introducing something for the artists out there. I went ahead and bought the song along with "Jerusalem" and "Johnny Walker Blues". I like how he is willing to explore these themes about "the other" through his songs and how, ultimately, he seems to arrive at the conclusion that though people are all indeed different, there is an emphasis on looking at similarities as well and what that can mean for us living together.

Interestingly, I found "Johnny Walker Blues" quite interesting because it touches on themes that you have tried to address in your book. Namely, it focuses on how young people are seeking meaning and a cause to be a part of. Unfortunately, religious militants are currently the ones who are tapping into this and drawing young people into their wars.

If one lesson comes out of this song, and the real life story that it is based upon, it is that those who seek peace and common action for the common good need to reach out to young people and help them see how their own religious identities and ideological leanings can be used to help the greater good rather than to destroy. Anyways, interesting songs. Thanks.

Sincerely,

Nicholas Price

Dear Eboo,
That song is amazing!!! Thanks for introducing something for the artists out there. I went ahead and bought the song along with "Jerusalem" and "Johnny Walker Blues". I like how he is willing to explore these themes about "the other" through his songs and how, ultimately, he seems to arrive at the conclusion that though people are all indeed different, there is an emphasis on looking at similarities as well and what that can mean for us living together.

Interestingly, I found "Johnny Walker Blues" quite interesting because it touches on themes that you have tried to address in your book. Namely, it focuses on how young people are seeking meaning and a cause to be a part of. Unfortunately, religious militants are currently the ones who are tapping into this and drawing young people into their wars.

If one lesson comes out of this song, and the real life story that it is based upon, it is that those who seek peace and common action for the common good need to reach out to young people and help them see how their own religious identities and ideological leanings can be used to help the greater good rather than to destroy. Anyways, interesting songs. Thanks.

Sincerely,

Nicholas Price

Thanks for the info. I remember John Walker as Taliban Johnny and Johnny Jihad. He goes by the name Hamza Walker Lindh today, although during his time fighting for the Taliban in Afghanistan, he was knowm as Sulayman al-Faris. Isn't changing names a sign of mind-control cults? Is Steve Earle practicing Islamic lying? America can't be "Land of the Infidel" and "City of Immigrants" unless the immigrants aren't assimilating:

John Walker's Blues:

I'm just an American boy raised on MTV
And I've seen all those kids in the soda pop ads
But none of 'em looked like me
So I started lookin' around for a light out of the dim
And the first thing I heard that made sense was the word
Of Mohammed, peace be upon him

chorus:
A shadu la ilaha illa Allah
There is no God but God

If my daddy could see me now – chains around my feet
He don't understand that sometimes a man
Has got to fight for what he believes
And I believe God is great, all praise due to him
And if I should die, I'll rise up to the sky
Just like Jesus, peace be upon him

chorus

We came to fight the Jihad and our hearts were pure and strong
As death filled the air, we all offered up prayers
And prepared for our martyrdom
But Allah had some other plan, some secret not revealed
Now they're draggin' me back with my head in a sack
To the land of the infidel

A shadu la ilaha illa Allah
A shadu la ilaha illa Allah

thanks for the link tim-

i can see why eboo is excited

city of immigrants on youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqB6t48oYJ0

heres steve earle talking about that song john walkers blues-
instead of someone else talking about it (like cnn)

that song didnt move me much

http://dir.salon.com/story/ent/wire/2002/09/27/earle/index.html

TIM- dont you know ANYTHING about human nature?

id have surely read the article, thought,"its nice mr patel is so geared up, good for him" and left.

by providing controversy AND a link- my curiosity got me to look at the video-
read the artice
FIND ANOTHER ARTICLE
and give a youtube link to the immigrant song!

you're free advertising has literally helped to put money into steve earles pockets, as its 95% likely ill go buy both cds now.

what are the old adages?

there IS no BAD publicity,
and "i dont care what they write about me, as long as they spell my name right?"

i would really have never thought to look and link-

now look what youve done!

"I heard Steve Earle’s new song, “City of Immigrants”

I quit listening to Steve Earle after he wrote "John Walker Blues". Sorry. As an American my sympathy does NOT extent to the ruthless Taliban.

'John Walker's Blues' meets the boos:

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/SHOWBIZ/Music/07/23/walker.lindh.song/

Steve Earle performs "John Walker's Blues" at the Cambridge Folk Festival in 2003

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVZfbiwb95Y