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Eboo,

I am very much usually in support of most things you say, but quite dissapointed that you were mentioning individuals like Dr. Hathout. This unfortunatley is something that is done quite often in the American media. African American Muslims, sunni and Nation of Islam types were the ones who made it easier for "immigrant muslims". To be quite honest, many groups were in "hiding"... people like Imam WD Mohammed should be seen as one of those true reformers and true folks who have really institutionalized Islam in America. Give credit where it is due.

c897t

thank you thomas

TO VICTORIA:

Please don't be sorry that you shared your very personal story, we are all brothers and sisters, the human family, not just the biological ones that God put into our lives.

Please don't take this the wrong way but I don't care what you or anybody else believes, if your beliefs help to make you a better human being then that is what is important.

When I write that God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof, that is what I am saying.

I have been thru some things that I wish on everyone and I have been thru other things that I wish on no one.

Some people seem to think that if they know God's Name then that is some kind of magic ticket, or something to that effect, well that is not true.

It is important what you do and why you do it and what you know, God is not some kind of egomaniac that gets off on people knowing His Name but how we treat each other is important to God considering that He created each and every one of us.

I, for one even tho I haven't met you personally, am glad that I have met you thru these postings and may God bless you and keep on blessing you and put a big smile in your heart.

This can be a tough world to live in with many sorrows and we should at least try in some way to help comfort each other considering that we are all in this together.

I have been chosen by God for a very specific job, so to speak, and God will see me thru somehow and one thing that I would like to say to you is guard your heart because even tho I am not God, just a messenger, it seems that you have a good one.

Take care, be ready, see you in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

no lib- i didnt post a conclusion reached one way or another

its a very personal story

ive spent much time with people who were terminal, and all doped up-
people are doped up in hospitals when they are dying lib-

and my brother was just about to die, he died about 2 hours after i left-

the difference isnt being doped up- thats a given-

the difference is he was at the point of death-

hed been doped up for al long time and never said anything similar

and alot of people have been doped up with AIDS_

i even was a buddy once for 2 years and lived with a person who was dying and couldnt function and took care of them (thats what buddies do, but most dont live with the person)

its death that is the subject- not pain management through modern drugs.

if i were trying tomake a case for angels- iwouldnt have mentioned the drugs would i have?

they were the last words i remember speaking to my brother in this world at his deathbed lib-

please dont mock this very personal sharing anymore

i am sorry i shared it

Victoria aka OBG,

The problem was that you were trying to make a case for the existence of "pwtfft"s in your "doped up" statement.

I wonder if besides the lack of food and rest in that cave, that your Mo fellow was also on some kind of hallucinogen when he "talked" to Gabe???

yes lib- i know he was doped up- im the one that gave the info there-

it was my only brother lib, not a patient

try and show the tiniest bit of compassion, ok lib?

he was my only sibling- its kind of off limits for flippancy- if you dont mind

yes lib- i know he was doped up- im the one that gave the info there-

it was my only brother lib, not a patient

Michael and Thomas "The NT Moses" Baum,

Professor JD Crossan, an NT exegete and member of the On Faith panel has authored or co-authored over twenty books on the subject of the historical Jesus. His references not only cover the OT and NT but also all the related documents from the first and second century CE. http://www.faithfutures.org/Jesus/Crossan1.rtf

With respect to atonement ("paid in full") theology, he makes the following comments:

(from his book, "Who is Jesus" co-authored with Richard Watts)

"Moreover, an atonement theology that says God sacrifices his own son in place of humans who needed to be punished for their sins might make some Christians love Jesus, but it is an obscene picture of God. It is almost heavenly child abuse, and may infect our imagination at more earthly levels as well. I do not want to express my faith through a theology that pictures God demanding blood sacrifices in order to be reconciled to us."

"Traditionally, Christians have said, 'See how Christ's passion was foretold by the prophets." Actually, it was the other way around. The Hebrew prophets did not predict the events of Jesus' last week; rather, many of those Christian stories were created to fit the ancient prophecies in order to show that Jesus, despite his execution, was still and always held in the hands of God."

"In terms of divine consistency, I do not think that anyone, anywhere, at any time, including Jesus, brings dead people back to life."

The titles of some of Professor Crossan's books and articles:

Excavating Jesus: Beneath the Stones, Behind the Texts (Harper San Francisco 2001)

The Birth of Christianity (Harper San Francisco 1999)

The Jesus Controversy : Perspectives in Conflict (Trinity Pr Intl 1999)

Who Is Jesus? (Westminster John Knox 1999)

The Essential Jesus (Book Sales 1998)

Who Killed Jesus? (Harper San Francisco 1996)

Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography (Harper San Francisco 1995)

In Parables : The Challenge of the Historical Jesus (Polebridge Press 1994)

The Historical Jesus (Harper San Francisco 1993)

An Inventory of the Jesus Tradition by Chronological Stratification (online)

An Inventory of the Jesus Tradition by Independent Attestation (online)

Common Sayings Tradition in Gospel of Thomas and Q Gospel (online)

Seminar: HJ Materials & Methodology (online)

A Closer Look at the Mustard Seed (online)

Was Jesus Buried? (online)

Alchemy and Accuracy (online)

A Review of John Dominic Crossan's The Birth of Christianity (Harvard Theological Review 2001, reproduced online)

Danny Yee's Book Reviews: The Historical Jesus (online)

Simple Choices? A Response to John Dominic Crossan

Yes, Thomas Baum, when Jesus' crucifixion completed His work of atonement and reconciliation: the debt owed for the sin of the world was "PAID IN FULL". He is the long-awaited ha Mashiah and He is coming again.

So take strength in this:

WAIT and LISTEN, everyone who is thirsty! Come to the waters; and he who has no money, come, buy and eat! Yes, come, buy [priceless, spiritual] wine and milk without money and without price [simply for the self-surrender that accepts the blessing]. Why do you spend your money for that which is not bread, and your earnings for what does not satisfy? Hearken diligently to Me, and eat what is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness [the profuseness of spiritual joy].

Incline your ear [submit and consent to the divine will] and come to Me; hear, and your soul will revive; and I will make an everlasting covenant or league with you, even the sure mercy (kindness, goodwill, and compassion) promised to David. Behold, I have appointed him (Him) [David, as a representative of the Messiah, or the Messiah Himself] to be a witness [one (One) who shall testify of salvation] to the nations, a prince (Prince) and commander (Commander) to the peoples.

Behold, you [Israel] shall call nations that you know not, and nations that do not know you shall run to you because of the Lord your God, and of the Holy One of Israel, for He has glorified you.

Seek, inquire for, and require the Lord while He may be found [claiming Him by necessity and by right]; call upon Him while He is near. Let the wicked forsake his way and the unrighteous man his thoughts; and let him return to the Lord, and He will have love, pity, and mercy for him, and to our God, for He will multiply to him His abundant pardon.

For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts. For as the rain and snow come down from the heavens, and return not there again, but water the earth and make it bring forth and sprout, that it may give seed to the sower and bread to the eater, So shall My word be that goes forth out of My mouth: it shall not return to Me void [without producing any effect, useless], but it shall accomplish that which I please and purpose, and it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

For you shall go out [from the spiritual exile caused by sin and evil into the homeland] with joy and be led forth [by your Leader, the Lord Himself, and His word] with peace; the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands. Instead of the thorn shall come up the cypress tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree; and it shall be to the Lord for a name of renown, for an everlasting sign [of jubilant exaltation] and memorial [to His praise], which shall not be cut off.

Victoria aka OBG,

You noted this about your patient, "although doped up to the max" i.e. he was hallucinating and not seeing the "pwtfft" of death.

since michael brought it up-

i also worked with PWA's for many many years - in the late 80s though (i never heard of AIDS til then)

you must have been on the really front lines michael-

the last night of my little and only brothers life i was with him in the hospital about midnight-

he spoke very clearly , and kept twisitng around and asking,"do you see that?"

i asked ,"what honey?"

he said, anunciating with clarity- (although doped up to the max)

"there, behind me, there it is again.

in my peripheral vision(try saying peripheral- let alone morphined up)

"in my peripheral vision, -that big black man is standing behind me"

at the time, i didnt make a connection-
later relating it to my (agnostic) mother, she said, "do you think it might have been the angel of death?"

there are more things in this world than dreamt of in your philosophy horatio(concerned the lib)
(shakespeare)

TO MICHAEL:

Thank you for your post, as I have said many times, we are all in this together and we are also to give others encouragement.

There are many ways to give others encouragement sometimes we knowingly do it and sometimes God does it thru us without our even knowing it.

You wrote, ""It is finished"", which is what Jesus said on the cross.

I read somewhere in the past few years that on an archaeological dig at a tax site, not a religious site, the words that Jesus said and in the language that He spoke were those same words and they were translated as "PAID IN FULL".

I find that very interesting in a number of ways, one of which is how God can and does communicate with us in lots of ways if only we are open to Him.

Take care, be ready, night is coming but the dawning of the seventh day will also be here in God's Time.

See you and the rest of Humanity in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Speaking of "pretty, wingie, flying, fictional thingies":

In the early 1980s, I worked in an AIDS hospice. Our patients were all young- mostly homosexuals with a few needle addicts.

Often- I would be told by a patient I know its you sitting on my bed holding my hand- but who is holding my other hand? Many times, patients talked of having "someone" come into their room to help them get ready "to take a trip" or "to catch a train or plane". This is hallucinating to non-believers and supernatural occurrences to believers.

One patient was particularly isolated and difficult. He was infected through needles and came from Haiti. Every time I entered his room -he would sit up straight and say "I see you have your two badgers with you". Some non-believing co-workers commented how funny it was that he repeatedly hallucinated two badgers waddling after me. So I finally asked him what my badgers looked like. He said they were about seven feet tall. No mention of wings though.

Also Thomas Baum writes:

"God wins, satan loses, a tie is unacceptable."

God has already won. Victory is in and through the blood of Jesus on the cross. "It is finished" The on-going battle with satan is for souls. This is why Thomas' soul was sifted AFTER he came into the kingdom of God. satan doesn't like to lose..

"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his Life for the sheep."

TO ANONYMOUS:

You wrote, "You know, Thomas Baum, -you are nothing and I am nothing.. He is everything.".

I disagree. We are the "Beloved", all of us.

Remember at the cross when Jesus said to Mary, "Woman behold thy son" and He said to the Beloved, which was probably John but he is never mentioned by name, "Behold thy Mother".

The beloved stood for the entire human race, male and female.

Woman, as Jesus referred to Mary, was referring to the woman in Genesis as in, "I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her Seed".

you and your seed refer to satan and evil.

The woman and her seed refer to Mary as I have already said and her Seed refers to Jesus.

God hasn't done all that He has done for us to be nothing but to be His Children.

God, the Second Person of the Trinity, even became one of us, that seems to me to be God's Way of saying that we mean a lot to Him and God even invited us to actively participate in His Plan, as It is referred to in Revelations, the Mysterious Plan of God.

Saying we are nothing can be nothing more than false pride and/or false piety, but saying that we can do what He choses us to do without Him is sheer arrogance.

Take care, be ready, see you in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Thomas, the Moses of the NT, Baum,

So you believe in "pwtfft"s and their ugly counterparts. Hmmm, today these "pretty/ugly thingies" are considered tinker bells and/or good and bad fairies. Considering the lack of physcial evidence for any of these mythical spirits, might you consider that your previous visions were simply hallucinations brought about by the use of drugs and/or the lack of sleep???

TO CONCERNED THE CHRISTIAN NOW LIBERATED:

You wrote, ""pretty, wingie, flying, fictional thingies"", on your post of 1-5-2008 at 4:53 AM and many, many times previously.

I take that statement as referring to angels.

Not only did God the Father come into my heart on 28 Jan 2000 and the Holy Spirit come into my body on 29 Jan 2000 and reveal to me that the Catholic Eucharist is indeed Jesus, but God allowed satan on 30 Jan 2000 into 31 Jan 2000 to battle me on and off for 24 plus hours.

The first part of the previous sentence is why I say God is a Trinity, not just what I was taught but from what I have experienced.

From a lot of what people say in different mediums such as print, audio and video, some would get the idea that all angels are good angels well that is not true.

It doesn't matter what people believe, Truth is Truth.

To the best of my knowledge, I have not met any of the good angels but I definitely believe that they have helped me and there are definite times in my life looking back, after some of the things that I have experienced, where I believe that they have.

satan is an angel, he is not nice at all but he can try to come across as mister nice guy, but as Jesus told us "It is satan's very nature to be a liar and a thief".

So your statement besides being arrogant and condecending is wrong on at least two counts and they are: 1. Not all angels are good angels and 2. Angels are most definitely real whether you or anyone else believes that they are.

Take care, be ready, see you in the Kingdom, remember night is coming but the seventh day will get here too.

God wins, satan loses, a tie is unacceptable.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Victoria aka OBG,

Now that you have given your views on the Christian god-trinity, maybe you can address the theological problems with "pretty, wingie, flying, fictional thingies" that every Islamic has to believe in as part of their warmongering religion.

And the Process to Deprogram your Islamic brainwashing is still available.

thank you arif- you are indeed a gentleman

mr baum-

**************
Christianity teaches that Jesus is God-Incarnate, islam teaches that Christianity is a lie, Does anyone out there disagree?
***************
i disagreed-

YOUR christianity, as YOU believe it- is trinitarian.
thats your right- however- it is only the god who can peer into hearts and decide if one is christian or not-
****************
"I did state what Christianity is, not what some people that call themselves "christians" believe."
***********

so, your statement is a syllogism and i disagree with the first premise-

so, the second premise- doesnt build on the first- as it wasnt and isnt a proven.

maybe it is for you, thats youre right-

it was the second- (that, in order to be agreed upon needs to be congruent with the first statement)

"islam teaches that Christianity is a lie,"

this is a dangerous idea-
it is not true either.

if i agreed with it- i would be lying-

if you qualified it with "trinitarian chirstianity"

i would agree

not all christians are trinitarians though-
even if you want them to be- or decide they are not-
that decision lay only with the god-

as you said-

"I will repeat God is a searcher of hearts and minds not of religious affiliations or lack thereof."
********************

then you must include christians who are not trintiarians i this also-

also-

"As it says in the bible, True Religion is taking care of widows and orphans so according to the bible you can have true religion and not even believe in God."

the bible does not say this-
there is nowhere in the bible that says you do not have to believe in god.

James 1:27
"Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world."

Deuteronomy 16:11 >>
"And you shall rejoice before the LORD your God, you and your son and your daughter and your male and female servants and the Levite who is in your town, and the stranger and the orphan and the widow who are in your midst, in the place where the LORD your God chooses to establish His name."

mr baum, i would highly recommend st johns
dark night of the soul for you
(it is trinitarian)

now i always respect your intentions-
and im not arguing for the sake of arguing-

but i wanted to make sure that anyone else who reads this understands that muslims do not believe christianity is a lie-

the trinity, yes-

but we love and respect Jesus(ata)and his followers-

a house divided against itself will fall-
for this reason- Muhammad(pbuh) cannot have been deceived by satan

because of the very first and primary commandment given to moses-
i cannot ascribe a partner to the god-

it is also primary in islam-
the only sin not forgiven by ALLAH is shirk- setting up partners and worshipping them next to ALLAH
we dont have to agree-
understanding each other is well enough

i hope the fine distinctions ive made have added to your understanding of islam too
peace

thanks again arif!

"They are the chosen people for the simple reason that God chose them."

You know, Thomas Baum, -you are nothing and I am nothing.. He is everything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I63j9FUeo10

TO ANONYMOUS:

Thank you for your comment.

We are all, and by all I mean ALL OF HUMANITY, in this together.

Some people like to tear out page one of the bible, "Let Us make man in Our Image and God created man, male and female He created them", God hasn't torn it out and neither should we.

Jesus was a Jew, a member of the chosen people, chosen and formed by God as part of His Plan.

They are the chosen people for the simple reason that God chose them.

Being the chosen people does not mean that they are better or anything at all like that, it just means that they are the chosen people.

Take care, be ready, see you in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

TO VICTORIA:

You wrote, "you stated what muslims believe- (although you are not a muslim, you spoke for them)".

I did not state what muslims believe.

I did state what Christianity is, not what some people that call themselves "christians" believe.

I also said that to the best of my knowledge and from what I have read on different posts that the koran definitely states that God is not a Trinity and that the god of islam gets very upset when Jesus is referred to as The Son of God, is that not correct?

I have not judged any other human being myself and it is not my place to do so.

Take care, be ready, see you in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

To the people calling Victoria names, please don't. Name calling is childish. Discussing religion is what we are doing, name callig we are not. It is not funny nor does it bring anythig to these discussions. If you cannot contribute to an argument then please resist calling people silly names.

Arif

Victoria aka OBG,

Hmmm, OBG is the better name. From this day forward, you will be known as Victoria aka "One Brainwashed Gal".

lib-
well, you can call me ray
or you can call me rj
or you can even call me mr johnson,
but you doesnt has to call me late for supper!

mr baum-
you didnt ask what christians believe-
you stated what muslims believe- (although you are not a muslim, you spoke for them)

you to your belief, and me to mine.

we'll agree to disagree then-
i can only speak for myself- and wouldnt dare speak for other muslims, let alone judge all of humanity-

that wasn't even Jesus'(ata) job!

"Jesus was a Jew when He walked on this planet."

Bravo Thomas Baum. Yeshua HaMashia was and is a Torah observant Jew. We must not think that He came to destroy the law. He came to fulfill the law. Remember- "Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in NO wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

It is obvious you were brainwashed by the plagiarized passages of the koran. In reality, you are actually following the codes and ways of the ancients. What shall we therefore call you?
Hmmm, how about "The Hammurabi Gal"? or " The Babylon Babe" or "The RomaGreco Lass"? or "The Zorastorian" or "The Alex in Never Land". Instead of bowing to Mecca five times a day, you should be bowing the major cities of these referenced ancients.

Unfortunately, bowing to these cities and their ancients is as worthless as bowing to Mecca and the warmongering, hallucinating Arab named Mohammed.

TO VICTORIA:

You wrote, "hi mr baum-

yes, i disagree completely.

islam does not say that chrisianity is a lie.
you are confusing the trinity with chrisitanity-"

Christianity is all about God becoming one of us and that God is a Trinity.

It doesn't matter if you believe it or not, it doesn't matter if some people that call themselves "christian" believe it or not, that is what Christianity is: Pure and Simple.

Just because satan deceived Mohammed and called himself Gabriel does not change anything, it just brings to Light what Jesus said about satan, that satan is a liar and a thief by his very nature.

I will repeat God is a searcher of hearts and minds not of religious affiliations or lack thereof.

As it says in the bible, True Religion is taking care of widows and orphans so according to the bible you can have true religion and not even believe in God.

It is important what you do and why you do it and what you know.

Take care, be ready, see you in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

TO HUMANITY:

Judaism is God choosing and forming a people, the Jews.

Jesus was a Jew when He walked on this planet.

Christianity is all about God, the Second Person of the Trinity, becoming one of us, a human being.

The word, Trinity, might not appear in the bible but the Trinity is spoken of many times in the bible including by Jesus, Himself.

Truth is Truth whether anyone believes it or not.

Believing something does not make it true.

Not believing something does not mean that it isn't true.

The captives shall be released and the dead shall rise in due time, God's Time.

The True, Living, Triune, Triumphant God wins, satan loses, a tie is unacceptable.

Take care, be ready, see you all in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

MR writes:
" everything i the universe is in submission to ALLAH-
stardust, blackholes, plastic, people and pigs.

its no more arrogant to believe people are born muslim, than to believe the circulatory system witin our bodies is muslim."

Nonsense.

Allah hates the majority of his own creation, the kafirs, because they will not submit to the evil that Muhammad espoused.
The one sin that Allah never ever forgives is that of Shirk (for christians that means saying Jesus was the Son of God).

Quran 004.116
YUSUFALI: Allah forgiveth not (The sin of) joining other gods with Him; but He forgiveth whom He pleaseth other sins than this: one who joins other gods with Allah, Hath strayed far, far away (from the right).

Quran 005.072
YUSUFALI: They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.

Quran 003.151
YUSUFALI: Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be the Fire: And evil is the home of the wrong-doers!

Quran 004.048
YUSUFALI: Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed.

And the pure distilled hate that is embedded when a christian, or a hindu, or a zorastrian, or any other believer is told that they corrupt their child who is born a muslim submitting to the monster of the quran, and their beliefs and their faiths are one thing that Allah never ever forgives and they will burn in Hell Fire for eternity. And this is the hate that is being glibly defended?

Sure everything is in submission to Allah!! IF that was the case then why so much Hell Fire, and pouring molten metal on heads, and burning again and again for infinity in the quran of muhammad?

you know, pigs are really sensitive smart creatures.
baby pigs are about one of the cutest things ive ever seen in my life.

did your classmates think they exist out of time and space, maybe are composed of some anti-matter?

sometimes, people can be idiots

this is onfaith-
so i post on my faith.

mostly it seems i end up commenting on peoles ilogical inconsistenices-

like this one- arif-
"Also the REVert concept that Muslims refer to is ridiculous indeed. It only shows the desperation of Muslims when they get one on their fold. It is nonsensical and downright arrogant to think that all people are born Muslims."

everything i the universe is in submission to ALLAH-
stardust, blackholes, plastic, people and pigs.

its no more arrogant to believe people are born muslim, than to believe the circulatory system witin our bodies is muslim.

"My teacher once told me that everything is Muslim, the earth the moon the stars the rivers. All in the class were so touched by what he said. I raised my hand and asked if pigs were Muslim too? Needless to say I nearly got killed for that."

im really sorry for the ignorance of your peers, and the environment you grew up in-
childen learn what is around them, and intolerance apparently abounded in your culture-

the onus is on you to reject that ignorance and intolerance as incongruent with being a decent human-

confusing the doctrine with the peoples ignorance- instead of beig outraged at their behavior- youve flipped the coin and now have the same intolerance for the religion-
which was never the source of the problem.

i had the good fortune to go to special schools where questioning minds were rewarded- no matter what the questions.

children have no bad questions, just bad answers.

actually, it points more to k's desperation that he has descended into schoolyard 'yo mama' insulting of family.

very sad.

as for the idea of the 'need to believe'.

ive seen both, considered both sides of that particular coin-

this is my nature-
its always been my nature-

i was raised in an agnostic household- and while my own spiritual drive was a curiosity to my mother particularly-
it was always respected

and i was educated in gate schools and my ideas were respected there-
as an artist, i translated those experiences into something tangible for others to get a glimpse of-
no one ever saw fit to belittle or condescend there either-

well, the ones who did, i always sensed some kind of emptiness within- you cannot transfer intuition- wonder, awe- compassion, empathy.

even if you dont believe in an god- to be cognizant of your effect on others, the interconnectedness of our impact on all we encounter no matter ho subtle-
still calls for gentility, consideration,respect- in our dealings with others.

im not strengthened by anothers weakness-
and no one else is weakened by what strengthens me.

ill continue to post qu'ran, if i like- or pretty much determine whatever i choose to speak or not speak to-

peace

"Even Eboo in a close encounter with her would probably choke her to death if not restrained."

Arif, you made me laugh..

But go to Patel's "Murder on the Subcontinent" thread and see the utube I just posted of Patel. My money is on Hirsi Ali. She would take him down in a New York minute.

Victoria,
Your feelings get hurt easily; you must remember defending Islam is a tough. In Muslim countries they have laws for silencing people who make derogatory comments about Islam. They kill them. You and Muslims are facing new challenges on the internet where people can speak their minds without the threat of getting killed. What Kafir, Ibrahim and I are saying is not new. These feelings for Islam have always been there people wrer too afraid to voice them. Even now critics of Islam remain anonymous and the reason for that is obvious. It is far too easy for Muslims to issue a fatwa against a critic of Islam and as such poses a real danger to the critic. Ms Harsi Ali, she needs guards wherever she goes. Even Eboo in a close encounter with her would probably choke her to death if not restrained. His disdain for her is very obvious in his writing.
Calling Mohammed a rapist, a pedophile etc. should not hurt your feelings this is just how we see this man whom you revere. The burden is upon you to prove that Mohammed was not what we accuse him to be. Simply quoting choice verses and choice hadits don't invalidate our accusations. The same sources from where you make your case of an innocent Mohammed we can prove he was otherwise. The same koran you cite peaceful verses from we can too show how the menacing Mullahs operate with verses they love to quote and emotionally charge their followers.
It is Mohammed’s Allah that we loath, not the concept of God. When Mr. Kafir denigrates Allah he says so because of the image Mohammed has presented to us. Mohammed’s god is a little man, a nitpicking militaristic misogynist. Mr. Kafir and others have repeatedly shown from Islamic sources and scripture how small the Islamic god is.

Also the REVert concept that Muslims refer to is ridiculous indeed. It only shows the desperation of Muslims when they get one on their fold. It is nonsensical and downright arrogant to think that all people are born Muslims. My teacher once told me that everything is Muslim, the earth the moon the stars the rivers. All in the class were so touched by what he said. I raised my hand and asked if pigs were Muslim too? Needless to say I nearly got killed for that.
You surely are a champion fighter, good luck with defending this religion. You are smart and sincere you take a lot of beating on these pages. I hope some day you will see through this facade and move away from the need to believe. People don't need religion you know especially this one, we have no need for a prophet. God gave us a brain to think for ourselves even if we use the brain given to us to not believe in God. The God we believe or don’t believe in is far greater than our puny beliefs.

Have a good day.

Mullah Revert,

Perhaps some of the Kafirs here do not know the insult that "revert" carries for their parents. Why not tell them?

According to the followers of Muhammad, all children are born pristine, pure, and "Muslim". It is their ignorant parents who inculcate with error and filth of taking partners with Allah (Shirk) and make them into jews, christians, hindus, etc. So when a filthy kafir accepts Allah and Muhammad, he or she is going back to the original pristine state from the filth that his or her parents created. They are REverting back to the original.

Only a true muhammad believer would be so casually insulting to the non-muslims, and insist on imposing the hatred of the Kafirs that allah commands in the quran.

Whether you answer or not is entirely irrelevant to me for I post so the other Kafirs become aware of the facts behind the smiley interfaith dialog. When the dialog is honest, then the kafir will know. At present, it is a one sided propoganda.

ibrahim- you DO understand that i was specifically answering mr baum there, dont you?

he asked what muslims think, not what christians think.

should i have used the rig vedas?

Victoria:
Here we go again quoting from "the Book of Allah" that Allah said this and Allah said that to prove that Mohammad is a prophet and Issa is no more than a prophet. The Quran itself said if it had contradictions it could not be from Allah(4:28). Well it has contradictions; over 69% of its Suras have revisions and outright contradictions, therefore it is not from Allah. Accordingly we could not use it as a reference about matters that deals with Jesus (Or anybody or anything else). Otherwise we will be working according to the principle GI = GO( Garbage in leads to garbage out). Therefore all those fancy quotes you present that claims Allah said this and Allah said that to prove a point should be eliminated from any objective discourse.BTW I am an Arabized Syrian.

Hmmm, I wonder if Victoria's "pretty, wingie talking, fictional thingie talks to her 24/7???

k- said-

"The ignorant "whitey" kafirs may fall for your act of "REvert" nonsense. I know you. You are born and bred a true believer of Muhammad and sad"

whats with this 'whitey' garbage?
dont add racism to your list of intolerances

so, you think i born and bred a true believer?

cool-

i actually think of myself that way too-
actually, we all are til our parents and society get ahold of us-

that, to me, means that there must be consistency and congruence with islam in my thought processes that make you think that.

and most fascinating-
so you recognize something in my words that reminds you of born and bred muslims?

so, the speculation ive developd from readig the qu'ran and hadeeth has led me to develop a seamless integration with your experience with muslims?

that is a great compliment, so thank you

now get this concept-

dont insult the god to me

you can seriously attack me, or people all you like- even the religion-
but for me- that is the line drawn in the sand that is too much-

i can forgive just about anything, and do-

but that is too much for me-

o btw- as ive indicated-

im never going to answer rudely expressed questions

that tact will never work with me-
but calling the god daft- that is -

i dont know if i can continue i such an atmosphere.
peace to you

waxing a bit poetic with the terrific odorifics, eh lib?

but the essential flaw in your theory is-
who washed my brain?

how can a self-realization be categorized as brain washing?

when you work this out, let me know.

but i was the sole actor in my path- doesnt brainwashing require a guide or something?

well, get back to me on that-

one thing i kind of do wonder about though-

why are people like k and mr mahfouz so virulently powerfully against islam?

i know, theyre asian-inidan, they had bad experiences- but it must be deeper than that.

its the "i think thou doth protest too much"
syndrome

i dont actualy expect any reasoned or thuoghtful answers from them-

im sure it will be more reactionary anger

but where does such anger come from?

there isnt a person born on the planet whioh hasnt suffered-
why do some overeact with such anger-

what makes a person sit on the net, actually taking precious time from their lifespan- to defame, belittle, vilify, demonize?

just thinking out loud

Victoria,

LoL!!
The ignorant "whitey" kafirs may fall for your act of "REvert" nonsense. I know you. You are born and bred a true believer of Muhammad and sad to say, you know neither your quran nor your ahadeeth apparently.

Well, Mullah Victoria, when are you going to take the trouble of helping your daft allah who thinks some drop proceeds from between the spine and the ribs?

Don't you feel the slightest shame lying to defend the obvious and silly errors of the war manual of your Muhammad?

Revert ... convert ... a billy goat's A*se!!
LoL!!

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

Convert or revert whatever, you definitely have been brainwashed in the flaws/stench of Islam as noted by "O you who believe! Believe in Allah, His Messenger, the scripture that He revealed to His messenger and the scripture that he revealed BEFORE. Whoever disbelieves in Allah, His angels, His books, His Messengers, and the Last Day has gone far astray. [Surah al-Nisa]"

Deodorize yourself by the following Five Steps to Freedom:

"1. Belief in Allah"

"aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc." should be added to your cleansing neurons.

"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."

Evolution and the Big Bang or the "Gib Gnab" (when the universe starts to recycle) are more plausible and the "akas" for Allah should be included if you continue to be a "creationist".

"3. To believe in the existence of angels."

A major item for neuron cleansing. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ugly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented.

"4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."

Another major item to delete. There are no books written in the spirit state of Heaven (if there is one) just as there are no angels/"pwtfft"s to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.

Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the uneducated masses in line. Today we call them fortune tellers.

Prophecies are also invalidated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.

"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone."

Mohammed spent thirty days fasting in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a neuron deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic violence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallucinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.

Accept these five "cleansers" and we guarantee a complete recovery from your orthodox Islamic ways!!!!

hi jon- maybe you didnt see the whole quote-

" patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel"
(in the context of the statement, false trumped up patriotism which is used for advantageous position)

"In a time of war the nation is always of one mind, eager to hear something good of themselves and ill of the enemy. At this time the task of the news-writer is easy; they have nothing to do but to tell that a battle is expected, and afterwards that a battle has been fought, in which we and our friends, whether conquering or conquered, did all, and our enemies did nothing."

see?

my own personal pet peeve of the most quoth and misunderstood is marx's religion is the opiate of the masses-

but i had it qualified and contextualized correctly-
maybe you jumped the gun-
i understand that- that marx quote gets my dander up too automatically-

hi k- your erroneous statement (again)

"And by that comment you have proven that you are no convert."

i never said i was a CONvert- im a REvert-

you dont even know the terminology!
faithfreedom is not a good source if you want to pose as a muslim-

and you criticize others for presenting anecdotes that dont have christian quotes justifying them, and yet, hypocritically- you do the same thing!

youre such a pikey!

arif- i thought you of all people could make the distincition between a sociao/political commentary, and a theological debate.

k has been so incredibly offensive and rude and accusatory, that i do not feel compelled to be polite-

yes, i do think people import their dysfunctions and paranoias and project them onto their adopted socity-

now what does that have to do with islam?

nothing-

i made an offer to a challenge by skeptic in reston- but qualified it with the statement that wont make the effort unless they agree to stick with the convo-
but tey disappeared and dint answer-
now k- thinks that by making demands in a most aggressive manner-

ill respond-

ask christian the liberated about that-

i dont reward bad manners with repsonsiveness

if he gets some manners, ill be happy to engage-
if you look, (and why should you?) youd see that hes made many ugly and unseemly personal comments unworthy of gentle rejoinder.

hi mr baum-

yes, i disagree completely.

islam does not say that chrisianity is a lie.
you are confusing the trinity with chrisitanity-

QURAN 4:171
“O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah anything but the truth. Christ Jesus, the son of Mary was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not “Trinity”: desist: It will be better for you: For Allah is One God: Glory be to Him: (Far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.”

(the word dosnt exist in the bible- it is contested within christianity by christians)

"He is Allah beside Whom there is none worthy of worship, The King, The Holy, The Peace, The Watcher, The All Mighty, The Compeller, The Supreme. Glory be to Allah! He is above all that they try to associate with Him as partners." [Holy Quran 59:23]

"Argue with the People of the Scripture in the best manner except those among them who act oppressively. Say: We believe in the revelation that has come down to us and in that which came down to you. Our God and your God is one, and it is to Him we submit ourselves as Muslims. [Surah al-Ankabût: 46]"

"O you who believe! Believe in Allah, His Messenger, the scripture that He revealed to His messenger and the scripture that he revealed BEFORE. Whoever disbelieves in Allah, His angels, His books, His Messengers, and the Last Day has gone far astray. [Surah al-Nisa]"

this definitely includes Jesus(ata) mr baum

PEACE

TO HUMANITY:

Christianity teaches that Jesus is God-Incarnate, islam teaches that Christianity is a lie, Does anyone out there disagree?

If anyone truly thinks that God is so petty that He looks at your religious affiliation or lack thereof rather than at you, I really don't know what to say, except that you are wrong.

I have met God, God is a Trinity, a Trinity of Pure Love and here we are His Children, His Creation, all created in the Image and Likeness of God which is the Image and Likeness of Love and just how much is that Image and Likeness shining thru us???

Here we are treating each other terribly, just look around at the world and unless you are completely deceiving yourself, it is a mess, such childish behaviour rather than child-like behaviour as Jesus referred to.

Jesus taught Love, not tolerance, not hatred but Love.

It sure seems that some people use christianity to hide behind and pretty much since day one of christianity, it has been that way. Calling oneself a christian, belonging to some denominational church, belonging to some non-denominational church or belonging to no church whatsoever does not mean that one is a christian, in the true sense, does it?

Jesus said some interesting things which if He was just a nice guy would be meaningless but if He really is God-Incarnate, and He is, they would be worth pondering.

" I have not come to bring unity but division", which if Jesus is Who He said He Is, and He Is, and the fact that God is Pure Love it will be the total crushing of evil and there will not be any religion, holy books or excuses to hide behind.

Another thing that He said is "I have come to bring fire to this earth and I wish it was already burning", since God is Pure Love, a consumming Fire of Pure Love then the Fire that Jesus is talking about is that Love which will burn away all the hatred and evil that some hold onto so dearly by their own choice.

It doesn't matter what religion a person claims to have, it doesn't matter if a person claims to have no religion, but it does matter what a person does and why that person does it. Whether anyone likes it or not, or believes it or not, Jesus is God-Incarnate like He said.

If you want to look to Jesus, don't look to anyone calling themselves a christian because there is a chance you will not find any resembalance whatsoever.

I am just a messenger, the New Testament Moses and remember God wins, satan loses, a tie is unacceptable. You could say that I am a messenger of the Message.

By the way, Jesus was also a messenger and His Message was Himself.

Take care, be ready, see you all in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Rudy, rudy, rudy,
stewing in the hate that your allah commands?

Why do the muslims hate so much? Why cannot you answer a few simple questions? The answers are so simple? It is essentially a "yes" to all of them. Do you not feel the slightest shame that you worship a deity that yells so much hate? Don't you? Not in the least?

Have you heard that sociologists have concluded that people attend a funeral for the living and not the deceased. Now, why would I attend your funeral?

I always wondered as to why the deceased person (that I referred to) why did his family even care as to whether Muslims attended that person's funeral or not?

My question to you now is: Have you told those Muslims you socialize with your views about Allah, Islam etc? If so, what do they have to say?

Rudy,

You are invited to my funeral whenever and where ever it takes place.

Now try answering the few simple questions. Why are they so difficult for the muslims to answer? Here they are again so you do not have to look them up:

1. Does the Allah of the Quran hate the kafirs with a passion or not? Does the Allah of the Quran curse the christians who call jesus the son of Allah, and jews or not?

2. Does the Sunnah of Muhammad exemplify that hatred for the kafirs as told in the Quran or not?

3. Are there examples in the Sunnah of Muhammad that are completely inappropriate for the 21st century or not?

4. Do the laws of the muslims countries for the last 1400 years discriminate against and totally deny even a semblance of equality to the non-muslims living among the muslims or not?

And you can really help your allah out by explaining which drop that proceeds from between the backbone and the ribs that Man is made of.

Victoria:

I knew of an educated gentleman of Muslim origin who like A. Kafir renounced his religion. Soon after his retirement he died. His family was complaining in town that no Muslims attended the deceased person's funeral for his will stated that he was to be cremated. The real reason was that he did not mix with Muslims. Many people had not even heard of him.

A. Kafir probably socializes with Muslims so that they will attend his funeral.

Rudy,

LoL! Having fun talking to yourself Victoria?
Ad hominem is the refuge of those who are unable to answer. I have asked simple questions and no answer.
Victoria was on a charger and going to demonstrate the Science in the Quran, and now is unable to find which drop the Allah is confused about that proceeds from between the back bone and the ribs from which Man is made. How about you? Why don't you help your allah out and teach the kafirs a little fancy 7th century physiology?

Victoria your harsh words...

"your imported paranoid dysfunction is not exactly a welcome or positive contribution to the american psyche.
(or on these boards either)"

Muslims hate to be confronted with the violent koran, with Mohammed’s violent life, you hate people pointing out the link presented between Mohammed’s life and what Muslims do when they kill in the NAME OF ISLAM. NO one has answered Kafir's questions; why Allah hates the Kafir, why is it okay to kill the kafir?
Mr. Kafir has been very polite, why do you want him to leave? Please answer his questions.

"Paranoid dysfunction" you call it? I take it you cannot answer his question.

Zeenat you said...

"A. Kafir, Ibrahim Mahfouz and Arif:
...
You must forget about trying to intimidate us in any way. I am sure you know by now that you will not succeed in this. And you know by now that we are not ignorant people."

Are we intimidating you? Questions about Islam, its prophet and legitimate threats Kafirs face from Muslims in the modern world are intimidating you? I don't think we have the upper hand here; we have to remain silent and live a life of hiding. We cannot confront our siblings, parents, family how are we intimidating you?
The only way we can question Islam is by first names or fictitious names over the internet. We are persistent and try to correct lies from the likes of Eboo and this is called intimidation? How so?

Victoria: A. Kafir is a multi-face creature. You got it right about him.

"patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel"

Ugh. Most over-sited and misquoted statement of a founding father. Try reading the following quote to understand Samuel Johnson's thoughts on loyalty and media.

"In a time of war the nation is always of one mind, eager to hear something good of themselves and ill of the enemy. At this time the task of the news-writer is easy; they have nothing to do but to tell that a battle is expected, and afterwards that a battle has been fought, in which we and our friends, whether conquering or conquered, did all, and our enemies did nothing."

Victoria,

And by that comment you have proven that you are no convert. Don't you feel the slightest shame in pretending and lying with multi nicks trying to defend what you think Allah's last religion? Why does your Allah rely on lies, lies of Muhammad and now your lies? Look at yourself and see how low you sink with your lies.

"Having said that it is also clear that many have very unresolved emotions if there is ever a conflict between loyalty to USA and Islam."

such statements would never occur to an american born and educated and socialized here-

as one of our founding fathers said,
" patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel"
(in the context of the statement, false trumped up patriotism which is used for advantageous position)

no one would ever begin to question peoples nationalistic fervor (loyalty) against their religious beliefs-

christians are not demanded to present their feelings on an either/or basis, and neither should muslims be so affronted.

given your vitriolic rants against muslims, it seems unlikley that the muslims you know would share their own conflicts with you-

unless you are presenting another janus like hypocriritcal face to them inperson, pretending to be their friend, while debasing their religion in here-
its hard for me to imagine you even having access to the thoughts of the muslims you know

the better question, and one actually asked (especially now during the caucuses when immigration is such an important issue this cycle)

is, do immigrants have a divided loyalty to their homeland and adopted country.

if the situation arose that america went to war with troops on the ground in the indian continent, and a draft were effected, would you or your children be loyal to america?
or your former home?

america isnt britain you know.

your imported paranoid dysfunction is not exactly a welcome or positive contribution to the american psyche.
(or on these boards either)

Zeenat,

To the point: Until the koran is "deflawed", no one is safe!!! The OT was basically "deflawed" by the NT.

To start the Islamic/koranic "deflawing"/cleansing process, simply follow the following five easy steps:

Using "The 77 Branches of Islamic "faith" a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi as a starting point. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true "faith" (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.

"1. Belief in Allah"

"aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc." should be added to your cleansing neurons.

"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."

Evolution and the Big Bang or the "Gib Gnab" (when the universe starts to recycle) are more plausible and the "akas" for Allah should be included if you continue to be a "creationist".

"3. To believe in the existence of angels."

A major item for neuron cleansing. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ugly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented.

"4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."

Another major item to delete. There are no books written in the spirit state of Heaven (if there is one) just as there are no angels/"pwtfft"s to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.

Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the uneducated masses in line. Today we call them fortune tellers.

Prophecies are also invalidated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.

"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone."

Mohammed spent thirty days fasting in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a neuron deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic violence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallucinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.

We await the results!!!!!

Ibrahim,

It is not fair to hold every muslim in USA to account for what CAIR or even the Imams say. I know many muslims who are very loyal americans and many have fought valiantly for USA. I have absolutely no doubt that the overwhelming majority of muslims do love their adopted country. I know I do although I do not call myself a muslim anymore. I do move among the muslims here and I know that the majority do love America. Having said that it is also clear that many have very unresolved emotions if there is ever a conflict between loyalty to USA and Islam. I do not think such a situation is ever likely to arise and hence it is a hypothetical in my judgment. What is more important that the educated and the intelligent Muslims of USA are the one who stand a chance of leading and winning the conflict within Islam. To do that they first have to learn to be brutally honest about Islam to themselves. This is not a conflict that can be finessed away or wished away.

Zeenat:
You say you and your coreligionists love America. Is replacing the US Constitution by the Sharia law is a demonstration of your love to this country? We know that this is your agenda. Ibrahim Hooper of CAIR said it many times, and your Imam's in this country include this exhortation every week in their Friday sermons. This is besides offcourse the usual curses of the "Cross worshippers", describing them as pigs and dogs. How does dragging this country back to the Dark Ages as is Afghanistan, Sudan and Pakistan show your love for America?

Zeenat,

Who is trying to intimidat you? You consider asking question over the internet intimidation? Do you think the questions I am asking will go away, because you do not address them? Do you really think that the American Kafirs will not read and have not read the Quran and the ahdeeth?
Why not tell them and yourself the truth? Why not tell them that Muhammad did behead thousands, that he did enslave thousands of women and children of the Kafirs, and that he did allow his men to rape these women, and that he did torture men to extract the wealth of the tribe and that he did have sex with the sisters or daughters or wife of who he tortured that same night. And he could do all that because Allah hates the kafirs with a passion and the Kafirs deserved no better. Islam had to prevail.

A. Kafir, Ibrahim Mahfouz and Arif:

I hope this concludes this debate. American Muslims are from all walks of life. We are blacks, whites, Asians,and Hispanics. We are taxi drivers, grocers, professors, scientists, physicians, surgeons, lawyers, computer programmers etc. etc.
But for your information at least 80 per cent of us are highly educated, articulate, and professionals.
America is our home. We love America.

You must forget about trying to intimidate us in any way. I am sure you know by now that you will not succeed in this. And you know by now that we are not ignorant people.

Yasmine,

You are charging me of taking advantage of semantics and have not answered a single question I have raised. Why cannot the muslims answer in a simple and plain language? No one is denying that you are very knowledgeable and far well read than I will ever be. Good for you.
This article is about American Muslim ID. So here are the simple and plain questions that need to be answered to understand what kind of Muslim ID the Kafirs of America can expect?

1. Does the Allah of the Quran hate the kafirs with a passion or not? Does the Allah of the Quran curse the christians who call jesus the son of Allah, and jews or not?

2. Does the Sunnah of Muhammad exemplify that hatred for the kafirs as told in the Quran or not?

3. Are there examples in the Sunnah of Muhammad that are completely inappropriate for the 21st century or not?

4. Do the laws of the muslims countries for the last 1400 years discriminate against and totally deny even a semblance of equality to the non-muslims living among the muslims or not?

Please answer these questions or have Eboo answer these questions honestly and forth rightly. The Kafirs can then judge for themselves what type of Muslim ID they can possibly expect.

I am not trying to intimidate anyone. That would be totally self defeating. I am trying to have an honest and open dialog, and trying to get past the politically correct sweep all the problems under the rug and pretend universal love and harmony already exists nonsense. So please try to answer the questions honestly.

A. Kafir:

You surely know how to twist and turn by using semantics. I knew you will come up with something.

The point was that the Christians of Europe hated and plotted against the Jews. That in itself does not justify anything.

You are a master of semantics! Never deal with any of the responses to your comments--just twist things around. Most people (Muslims and non-Muslims alike) know what is going on here.

You thought it would be easy to intimidate Muslims.
You were wrong. Some of us are knowledgeable of history and events.

Most of your accusations have fallen on your face.

Yasmin,

If you are trying to show that Religion has been used to kill then the example you give are correct. Have we as humans learned anything from the Holocaust?

So tell me showing that the jews were massacred justifies the absolute hatred for the Kafirs by Allah in the Quran? Does that in any way justifies the horrendously discriminatory laws that exist against the non-muslims in the muslim countries?

Or are you suggesting that because the Europeans committed the Holocaust, that means the it is acceptable if the muslims commit one now against the kafirs?

Tamil Tigers do not quote any holy scripture to justify their killings. They trained with the PLO in their early days. They do not use and have not used any religious teachings to justify their actions. At one time their actions exceeded the suicide bombings but now their totals are dwarfed by what the muslims have accomplished.

Ottomans were never colonized. Hindus, and the Chinese were also colonized, but they do not play the victim and blame that all the ills they face is because of it. For how long will the muslims keep blaming others for the ills that they suffer? Tell me why is it that the west has not been able to impose a lousy dictator on China? Why not on India? Even the Vietnamese fought and are not complaining and blaming others after all they went through? Look at malaysia. It is rich, it has been helped to have much industry because of the chinese, and they are busy denying the non-muslims equality and reasonable rights. Just today the muslims of malaysia have declared that the chinese cannot build a Statue because it will hurt the muslims feelings. So tell me how much and for how long have the malaysian muslims undergone the historical travails that you are mentioning? Why is it that muslim and non-muslim cannot marry in malaysia, and if they do then the non-muslim has to convert to Islam. The other way around is not allowed at all. Would you like to go over the obscenely discriminatory laws agaisnt the Copts of egypt, or the assyrians of Iraq, or the hindus of pakistan or bangladesh, or the zorastrians of Iran? Why?

A. Kafir:

We all know about the Holocaust and how the Jews were murdered in Europe by the Christians. Did it happen suddenly or was a mindset developed for centuries that led to the Holocaust?

Actually, from the end of the 14th. century onwards Jews were systematically uprooted, their properties stolen. All this ended in the Holocaust.

Lord Cromer, Britain’s proconsul in Egypt (1883-1907), divided humanity into “governing races” and “subject races”, while T. E. Lawrence called Egyptians “worms”. This is hardly different from “vermin”, the Nazi epithet for Jews.

Lord Balfour, whose 1917 declaration handed over Palestine to Europeans, was intensely anti-Jewish and was so disturbed by the possible mass migration of east European Jews into Britain following pogroms in Russia that as prime minister he had the Aliens Act passed in 1905 to block their migration to Britain. And Mark Sykes (of the Sykes-Picot pact fame) called the Jews “the archetype of cosmopolitan financier, rootless money grubber....contemptible”.

Churchill believed that “atheistic Jews” were behind the Russian revolution, and often referred to the Bolsheviks as “bacillus” — a pet Nazi term for Jews. An article “By the Rt. Hon. Winston S. Churchill” in the February 8, 1920, issue of the Illustrated Sunday Herald, named Karl Marx, Bela Kuhn, Rosa Luxembourg and others among Jews who were behind “every subversive movement” in the 19th century. He also accused Trotsky of attempting to set up a world communist empire “under Jewish domination”.

Here are the documented evidence demanded by A. Kafir, Ibrahim Mahfouz and the Concerned Christian... Let us see whar excuses they come up with.

A. Kafir:

Not too long ago,, experts who have studied cases of suicide bombings appeared on PBS' News Hour with Jim Lehrer and mentioned that in the Middle East three Christian cases of suicide bombings have been reported.

In Sri Lanka, Tamil Tiger suicide bombers were not Muslims but were Hindus.


If Muslim countries are experiencing violence, it is because over the past 200 years, Muslim lands have been repeatedly violated by outsiders who sought to dominate Muslim people and appropriate their resources.

Zeenat,

Hitler and his history is used in many ways. I am sure you are not portraying the history accurately. So before I answer you on what you have written, please provide a reference from where you get that information. Let us verify exactly what is known, and the credibility of these facts.

Nazis were discarding the old religion and creating one of their own. You really should read the effort they were putting in about who and what is an Aryan. Take a look at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism_and_Religion

There are other references that you can look up. What it shows is that Nazis tried to hook into "religious sentiments" to justify Nazism but they were not around long enough to be successful to create one. The old christianity had lost its zest for killing by then, and that is why the Nazis were looking for an appropriate religion for the master race.

The european states still are not fully divorced from the church. Many states, including germany, still collect taxes to pay for the church. That is for historical reasons. Europeans killed each other for religion for over 400 years, and nearly killed one third of the population. Are we going to learn anything from that or are we going to insist on killing our own before we see the stupidity of it.

Yasmin:
Quoting ibn Rushd who basically says not everything is predestined by Allah, flies straight into the face of the Quran. Predestination is a basic tenant of Islam. So do you follow ibn Rushd or the Quran?
As for Muslims not wanting to go back to the Dark Ages,maybe not but they sure are not trying hard enough to get out of their present rut.Refusing to take responsibility for their actions and blaming everybody else for their sorry state of affairs while believing in predestination in matters large or small is not going to do it for you.

A. Kafir:

Hitler was a religious zealot who ordered Jesus prayers in all German schools and said God had appointed him to establish a great Aryan empire that was to last a thousand years.
He even had cast on the belt buckle of every German soldier: "God is with us."

Hitler claimed to have biblical justification for the massacre of Jews. Each year he had 10 percent of the gross German taxes sent to the Vatican. All during this period, Pope Pius XII made no mention of the Holocaust or criticism of Hitler.

Zeenat,

The human mind is behind such killings. Yes the tutsi's were killed and yes in some of the killings the priest was behind the killings. Humans have been killing other humans and they will likely keep killing for a long time to come.

How humans will outgrow killing each other is something that all humans will have to work. One of the reasons that humans have traditionally used to kill each other is religious differences. That is why we are having this interfaith dialog, are we not.

Now show me that the tutsi's who were killed were killed because they followed the wrong religion. They were killed because they were the wrong tribe they were tutsi's. Do you understand the difference? At the moment, most of the killings being done by muslims uses Islam as the justification explicitly. That is what should bother you as a muslim. That is what bothered me as a muslim. Why is it that the Quran and the Sunnah of Muhammad can be so easily used to justify the killings? Christians killed each other for hundreds of years and quoted their scriptures to justify it. They do not do that anymore. Hindus killed each other in the name of religion, and they don't do that to each other any more (they and the muslims still have religious blood letting now and then).

Denying that muslims kill in the name of Islam is simply denying the obvious. If we want to stop that killing, if we really want to reform, then the first task is to be truthful and honest and tell others and ourselves where Islam tells to kill others. Islam tells you explicitly to not kill another muslim. Allah promises great punishment at killing of another muslim. But Allah also tells you to kill a kafir who does not submit. That is a fact. Muslims have used that to kill, and are still using it to kill others.

A. Kafir: You wrote: "The killings and the beheading that are taking place around the world by muslims... "

Response: In Rwanda the Catholic Church organized killing Tutsis by using machetis (beheading Tutsis).
Close to a million people were killed using this and other means.

In Srebrenica (Serbia), Christians lined up young Muslims and shot them at point blank. What kind of world view or mind set commits such genocide?

You are avoiding the issue. The World view under which the killings you are pointing to have nothing to do with any religion. If you want to assert that religion has something to do with it then you have to show that at least one of the parties has claimed that and raised religious issues that led them to the killings. I can show you hundreds of statements by many many muslims around the world where Islam is explicitly quoted and used to justify the killing. The killing of girls and women by the Taliban is because the females are not following the rules of Islam. I showed you the statement of the Qari who thinks it is probably okay to nuke the british because he wants to impose Islam on every one.
So show that at least one of the parties of the killings that you are bringing up are quoting some religion for justification.

What you don't seem to understand is: WHAT KIND OF WORLD VIEW LEADS CHRISTIANS TO KILL OTHERS? Like the killing of Tutsis in Rwanda, Killing of Christians killing Christians in Nigeria, Catholics firebombing protestants and vice versa in Northern Ireland for 400 years.

Zeenat,

You seem to not understand what defanged means. In the story you show, try to find either side quoting the Bible or jesus or any other christian religious statements to justify the killing.

How many statements and speechs do you want to see from the Muslims where the words of Allah and the Quran are being used to justify the killing?

The killings and the beheading that are taking place around the world by muslims are being justified by the words of the Quran and Sunnah of Muhammad. Now show a speech by any acceptable "leader" in the christian, hindu or buddhist, zorastrian etc world where they use the word of their holy book to justify killings of the others.

I really would like to see if you can find any.

Concerned The Christian Now Liberated:

But both sides are Christians. Thank God, there were no Muslims involved. Otherwise, Islam would have been blamed.

I do firmly believe that Muslims do need a reform. But do not come back to say that their social organization is not reformable. That would be another height of your arrogance. Christian-Hindu riots in India, Christian-Christian fighting with brooms in Jerusalem church and Christians killing of Tutsis in Rwanda are just a few examples to counter that argument.

Zedco writes:

"That is exactly my point. Why couldn't you stick with the subject matter of this article? Why do you keep harping and taking every chance to write against Islam and theology? Theology was not the subject matter of this article nor was Hirsi Ali."

I have stuck to the subject matter of this article. You refuse to address the simple points that prevent the genuinely peaceful American Muslim ID. Hirsi Ali is relevant because it shows the problem that Eboo refuses to see and address. The answer that Yasmine writes states it clearly:

"Religious people claim that prayer can move mountains. I suggest that you go to a high school of your town and ask every student to pray and then ask him/her to move a large boulder. I can assure you that the boulder will not move.
So, Faisal I agree with you that we must try to be rational human beings. Averroes was right when he said that man is neither in full control of his destiny nor does his destiny fully control him.
In today's world we must stop hate and promote interfaith understanding. Humans have come a long way. we do not want to go back to the Dark Ages."

We really do not want to go back to the Dark Ages, and the first prerequisite is to be honest and truthful. Interfaith Dialog and understanding does not come from lies. You consider what I say as writing against islam and theology. I cannot help it if Allah hates the Kafirs, can I? Show me that I am wrong, and I won't say it. I cannot help it that the muslims around the world in muslim countries have egregiously and blatantly discriminated against and denied equality to the non-muslims in their countries, and have stated in unequivocal terms that they do so because of what Islam teaches them. Tell me that I am wrong and I will not say it. The Kafirs here want to build a just and a tolerant society, and that is why you have these pages and an opportunity for an interfaith dialog. But it is no dialog if we are to pretend and pretend to sweep all problems under the rug. Those who are blowing themselves up, those who are at war with us, those who want to dominate the world all quote the Quran and the Sunnah of Muhammad. Interfaith dialog has to be built on truth and not lies. For starters tell the Kafirs, the non-muslims here the truth ... that Allah of the Koran hates them with a passion, that the Sunnah of Muhammad reinforces that with stark clarity. And then tell them what the Muslims are doing about it to deal with such a message so they can live with the rest of mankind in peace.

Misleading and propaganda pieces that Eboo writes and then never responds to any questions about them is not an honest dialog. Show the readers that I am wrong and ignorant and telling falsehood about Islam. By showing that you will rob me of any credibility and I disappear.

Zeenat,

Christians are being "deflawed" but the process is hardly complete. I have no idea of how the "deflawing" process is going for Buddhism and Hinduism.

The news stories you cite appear to be more about tribal conflicts not religious conflicts.

Arif, Ibrahim Mahfouz, Concerned Christian...:

You have claimed that Hindus, Christians, and Jews have been defanged, Only Muslims have not been. The following news (Yahoo news) item falls right on your face once again:

By Daniel Wallis and Wangui Kanina 57 minutes ago

A mob torched a Kenyan church on Tuesday, killing about 30 villagers cowering inside, as the death toll from ethnic riots triggered by President Mwai Kibaki's disputed re-election approached 250.

Fire engulfed a church near Eldoret town where hundreds of Kibaki's Kikuyu tribe had taken refuge in fear of their lives. Witnesses said charred bodies, including women and children, were strewn about the smoldering ruins.

"This is the first time in history that any group has attacked a church. We never expected the savagery to go so far," police spokesman Eric Kiraithe said.

Kibaki was sworn in on Sunday after official election results showed he narrowly beat opposition leader Raila Odinga. Both sides have accused the other of massive vote-rigging during the December 27 election.

The dispute ignited long-simmering tribal rivalries in one of Africa's most stable democracies and strongest economies.

World powers called for calm and urged the political opponents to "exercise restraint" and talk to each other.

Police and a senior security official said the blaze at the Kenya Assemblies of God Pentecostal church in western Kenya was deliberately started by a gang of youths.

Television pictures shot from a helicopter showed plumes of white smoke pouring from burning homesteads in the area. Young men, some toting bows and arrows, manned roadblocks.

Residents and a security source said the victims had sought safety at the small church, about 8 km (5 miles) from Eldoret.

"Some youths came to the church," said a local reporter from the scene. "They fought with the boys who were guarding it, but they were overpowered and the youths set fire to the church."

Local media said 20 people suffered life-threatening burns.

The attack revived traumatic memories in east Africa of the slaughter in churches of tens of thousands of victims of Rwanda's 1994 genocide, and the mass suicide of hundreds of Ugandan cult members in a church fire in 2000.

Police said more than 70,000 people had been displaced nationwide and about 170 killed. Reuters reporters around Kenya estimated the death toll at around 250.

Leading local newspaper, the Daily Nation, feared the country was on "the verge of a complete meltdown." Fuel prices rose sharply in Uganda, South Sudan, Rwanda and Burundi, all of which get petrol, diesel and other products from Kenyan ports.

THOUSANDS FLEE

Police were out in force in the capital on New Year's Day and Nairobi's streets were initially quieter, before violence erupted in the slums again as dusk fell.

Ghana's President John Kufor, the chairman of the African Union (AU), is due in Kenya on Wednesday to meet Kibaki and "discuss the current crisis," an AU spokesman said.

Washington had first congratulated Kibaki, then switched to expressing "concerns about irregularities." Former colonial power Britain, the European Union and others pointedly avoided congratulating Kibaki. Instead, they expressed concern, urged reconciliation and a probe into suspected voting irregularities.

"The 2007 general elections have fallen short of key international and regional standards for democratic elections," the EU observer mission said in its formal assessment.

Western diplomats shuttled between both sides, trying to start mediation. British Prime Minister Gordon Brown called Kibaki and his opposition rival Raila Odinga.

"The government thinks they can wait this out, but we're not convinced," one diplomat in Nairobi told Reuters.

The Eldoret area where the church massacre took place is multi-ethnic but traditionally dominated by the Kalenjin tribe.

It suffered ethnic violence in 1992 and 1997 when hundreds of mainly Kikuyus were killed and thousands more displaced.

A senior security official in Rift Valley said that as many as 15,000 people were now sheltering from the violence in churches and police stations in Eldoret.

He blamed the opposition for incitement.

"We have lived together for years, we've intermarried, we have children, but now they've asked them to turn against them," the security official said. "We don't do this in Kenya. It is what happens in Yugoslavia and Sudan."

An Irish Catholic priest in Eldoret, Father Paul Brennan, told Reuters vigilante gangs were roaming the streets.

"Houses are being burned. It is too dangerous to go outside and count the dead," he said. "The churches are full. There are four to five thousand in the main cathedral."

Most deaths have come from police firing at protesters, witnesses say, prompting accusations from rights groups and the opposition that Kibaki had made Kenya a "police state."

(Additional reporting by Nicolo Gnecchi, Duncan Miriri, Helen Nyambura-Mwaura, Patrick Muiruri, Bryson Hull, Florence Muchori, Joseph Sudah, Andrew Cawthorne; Guled Mohamed in Kisumu; and Tsegaye Tadesse in Addis Ababa)

Faisal:
Najjar is not a semi-literate cleric. He claims to be a PhD. in science.I am not the one spreading this nonsense it is Najjar and many others like him.If you disagree with them write to them and not to me. Do your own research and shut them up. You can start by contacting Al-Ahram newspaper,AlJazeera TV channel,Saudi Iqraa TV channel, Dubai TV channel and the Egyptian Orbit TV channel.

A. Kafir:

That is exactly my point. Why couldn't you stick with the subject matter of this article? Why do you keep harping and taking every chance to write against Islam and theology? Theology was not the subject matter of this article nor was Hirsi Ali.

Religious people claim that prayer can move mountains. I suggest that you go to a high school of your town and ask every student to pray and then ask him/her to move a large boulder. I can assure you that the boulder will not move.

So, Faisal I agree with you that we must try to be rational human beings. Averroes was right when he said that man is neither in full control of his destiny nor does his destiny fully control him.

In today's world we must stop hate and promote interfaith understanding. Humans have come a long way. e donot want to go back to the Dark Ages.

Zedco,

I brought up Hirsi Ali because Eboo had stated elsewhere:

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/eboo_patel/2007/12/ayaan_hirsi_ali_and_muslim_dir.html

"And once moderate Muslims are louder, not in the form of angry indignation but as eloquent articulators of the depth and meaning of their faith, then people like Ayaan Hirsi Ali will suddenly find themselves consigned to the place where they should have been all along: the margins, where they can froth at the mouth all they want.

Hirsi Ali and people like her are widely-read because they offer a theory of the problem: they tell the world a convincing story of why Muslims keep popping up on the front pages of newspapers in negative articles. Hirsi Ali’s theory, and the theory of other Islamophobes, is that Muslims have dirty laundry because the body and soul of Islam are dirty."

And there is the problem. Calling those who raise issues about Islam as Islamophobes does not make the questions go away. Using the "Islamophobe" word shows the psyop warfare side of jihad more than anything else. Hirsi Ali has never said that the body and soul of Islam are dirty. Islam when it comes to muslim to muslim relations teaches a morality that is barely distinguishable from other religions (except for a few minor but imporant differences when it comes to muslim women and that is what Hirsi Ali correctly points to). But when it comes to relations between muslims and non-muslims, Islam's body and soul is way beyond dirty. It is down right barbaric, and unless the muslims honestly and openly acknowledge that and "fix" it in some sensible way, the conflict between the muslims and the kafirs will only grow in this global village of ours. Lies and ignorance will not and cannot work in the present age of instant access to information.

Zedco,

That is good Rudy made a lot of sense for you. Calling me pikey, shameless, or whatever else does not answer a single point I have raised. I am not bringing up any complicated lacunae of Islamic theology. I am stating a very simple fact of Islam: Allah hates the kafirs with a passion. Non-muslims are offered a very simple but brutal choice under Islam. Kafirs here should know what they can expect under Islam. And Kafirs should learn about Islam. The American Muslim ID will by necessity end up incorporating that hate if the Muslims will not honestly and openly acknowledge that the sunnah of Muhammad is not appropriate for the modern world.

The Kafirs should know what is in the Quran and should know what is in the Sunnah of Muhammad. Personally, I would like to see as many Kafirs familiarizing themselves with the Quran and sunnah of Muhammad as possible.

I think you are correct that Hirsi Ali did lie on her initial "visa" application to Holland. She did tell that to the dutch and was elected to the dutch parliment. No one claims that she is either a saint, or is perfect in every respect, or infallible. However, what she says about Islam and muslim society is right on mark, and kafirs will ignore her warnings at their peril. If you do not like her, then I suggest you look at what Wafa Sultan has to say.

Ibrahim Mahfouz: If some cleric in Egypt claims that Koran is a book of science, he is indeed ignorant of the distinction between religion and science. That is not the fault of all Muslims or the Koran itself. You continue your rhetoric that its the fault of Islam. I agree with Rudy that with this kind of line you do not establish any credibility.

Here (below) is a small piece written by a Muslim I read and saved it:

"Science is defined as systematic knowledge of natural or physical phenomena. In search for explanations, scientists don't assume that things are always as they appear to be. They look for observational evidence. Because explanations are always challenged by new observations, science is self-correcting. Truth in science is not absolute. Although the scientist arrives at a system of validated hypotheses, or theory, no theory is thought to be beyond challenge.

Truth in religion is based on faith and is not subject to the same rigorous tests as it happens in science. True, there are many verses in the holy Quraan that have been validated by science. However, such validations of Quranic verses by themselves do not make Quran the book of science.

If a student wants to become a physicist, he or she will have to study the books on physics and get experience in a laboratory. Such a student will not study Quran for the sake of becoming a physicist. That student might study Quran for spiritual reasons.

So, the holy Quran is a book of Islamic faith. There is no such thing as Islamic science.
Thus the terms Quranic sciences and Hadith Sciences, are misleading. Let us not perpetuate ignorance.

When we pray for something and it does happen, we remember it and say that our prayer has been answered. When the results are not achieved as desired we either forget about it or say that it was not the will of God. Spiritually, failure is not an option.

Science also succeeds and fails. It has succeeded in prolonging life but has failed so far in eliminating death. The seeds of death are sown at conception.

All Muslims must embrace science and technology for all of us are beneficiaries of both religion and science as long as we treat both belonging to two seperate domains of the human experience.

Through religion, we try to connect spiritually with the Creator who did not create this world to be random. He created order in the universe and has given us the senses and the ability to comprehend phenomena we experience. But our power of comprehension has its limits and is not infinite.

God's commands are for our own good. If followed, they promote equality, peace and harmony.
The practice of the five pillars of Islam is to strengthen the character of every man, woman, and child. This means distinguishing right from wrong, accepting responsibility for our actions or sins. Praying five times a day and then committing sins like bribery, cheating, engaging in honor killings etc. can make mockery of our faith."

Stop your non-sense. Some semi-literate cleric does not represent all of Islam.

The great Muslim philosopher, Averroes (ibn Rushd) said more than 7 centuries ago that man was neither in full control of his destiny nor his destiny fully controls him.

A. Kafir:

I think you are shameless. You keep repeating the same thing. I thought Rudy made a lot of sense asking you to raise these issues by going on an Islamic web site and not expect the rest of us to be fully conversant with theology of any religion.

Why bring Hirsi Ali here? I read somewhere that that she lied on her visa application?

Rudy:
As to citing that the Bible mentions things such as the Earth is flat does not prove anything. The Bible never claimed to be a book of science and never used any scientific phenomenon as a proof of its being the literal word of Allah.On the other hand Muslims are increasingly doing so. There is a cleric in Egypt by the name of Najjar who has a weekly column in the Al Ahram newspaper,the widest circulated paper in the whole of the Middle East and North Africa, where he quotes verses from Quran that deal with scientific phenomena to prove "the miraculous nature of the Book of Allah". His latest being that the Quran explained Einstein's Theory of Relativity(1400 years agao).

Rudy,

What Eboo sells is not true and I am merely pointing that out, by showing what the sources of Islam really say. Islam hates the non-muslims with a passion, and hates the apostates with a frenzy. The Kafirs better know. The apostates already know. So I have no credibility with you ... I have no problem with it. I am sure Ayaan Hirsi Ali has no credibility with you either. She does not with Eboo. So what's new?

The credibility of denying and silencing Galileo was paid and is being paid by the Church. Instead of showing how all the others are no good, why don't you tell me that I am wrong and show the readers that I am wrong? Or are you agreeing with me that islam hates the kafirs with a passion? Are you agreeing with me that the only choices offered to the kafirs when islam has the power is submit to islam, or pay jizziya with humiliation and being willingly subdued, or die?

At least tell me that you agree with me that the punishments in the Quran are barbaric and not for humanity anymore. How about the silly statements reflecting the 7th century knowledge about genetics and physiology clearly show that the Quran cannot be the word of an all knowing deity .. good or bad?

A. Kafir: Here is the information on "The Earth is Flat" and "The Earth is at the Center of the Universe."

The medieval view that the earth was the unmoving center of the universe, known as geocentrism, was inherited from the ancient Greeks and systematized in the second century AD by the pagan astronomer Ptolemy. Although the Ptolemaic system was not actually taught in the Bible, it was easy for the medieval Christian world to read the idea into various biblical texts. The Scripture most commonly cited to prove the geocentric position was Joshua 10:13, which states that in answer to Joshua’s prayer “the sun stopped in the middle of the sky, and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day.” The belief that the earth stood at the center of the universe with all heavenly bodies moving around the earth was correlated with the Christian doctrine that human beings were uniquely related to God as his representatives in the material universe. It seemed so sensible, so obvious, that the most important creatures in the universe would live at its center. This theological perspective, more typically assumed than stated, combined with the obvious fact that the earth feels stationary and the heavenly bodies look like they are revolving around the earth, made any suggestion to the contrary seem both irreverent and foolish.

A.Kafir writes: "So here is a challenge for you, show me one statement that I have made about Islam that is not directly from the "Official" books of Islam."

You don't get it. You, Ibrahim Mahfouz, and Arif have turned this into a theological debate which is far removed from the original article.

The Bible is also full of statements like "The earth is flat" or "the earth is the center of the universe." But it serves no purpose to discuss those issues here.

If you have questions about theological Islam you should go on any website on Islam and ask any questions. In the same way, any questions about Christianity should be addressed to numerous Christian web sites.

Don't expect people here to have a detailed knowledge of theology--Christian or Islamic.

Just remember, you do not establish your credibility with the rest of us adopting your approach.

Kafir:
The fanatic Muslim cleric that you cited from the British newspaper is a very convincing reason why no Muslim country should be allowed to own nuclear weapons. Becaue despite the lame protestations of the so-called liberal Muslims, sooner or later, if we llow it, someone like that demagogue would have the chance to fulfill his threats against the civilized world.

happy new year all you lovers and haters

All religions as noted previously by the flaws in their founders and foundations have a particular odor. Within the past ten years, Islam's odor has grown to be a stench. This horrific smell will continue until the koran is "deflawed".

Rudy,

Now here is a happy New Year Message to the Kafirs in UK from a Qari Hifzur Rehaman of Pakistan.
Now read the article and would you like to see that every single punishment that he proposes is really right out of the Quran, the Sahih Hadeeth or the respected Sharia of the main five Madhabs of Islam? Qari is simply telling it as he knows the Islam from the books of Islam. Look at it directly.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article634210.ece

A FANATICAL Pakistani cleric told The Sun yesterday of his chilling dream to turn the world Muslim – by force if necessary.

Qari Hifzur Rehamn, 60, spoke openly of imposing Islamic law’s stoning and beheading on Britain – as Pakistan was rocked by unrest over the assassination of Benazir Bhutto.

He warned: “We want Islamic law for all Pakistan and then the world.

“We would like to do this by preaching. But if not then we would use force.”

Rehamn, 60, spoke in the Pakistani town of Kahuta as the call to prayer echoed over the dusty streets.

He is Imam of the town’s fundamentalist religious school or madrassa, where classes for kids as young as nine include Jihad or Holy War and barbaric punishments.

His teachings are frightening enough. But his mosque lies in the shadow of the secret bunker where Pakistan produces nuclear weapons.

And when asked if it would be right to nuke British infidels, he laughed and answered: “Probably.”
Rehamn, in a flowing grey beard and turban, explained Islamic, or Sharia Law as we sat surrounded by some of his 250 students.

He said: “Adulterers who are married should be buried in earth to the waist and stoned to death.

“Homosexuals must be killed – it’s the only way to stop them spreading. It should be by beheading or stoning, which the general public can do.

“Thieves should have their hands cut off. Women should remain indoors and films and pop music should be banned.”

So what does he think of Britain? The dad insisted: “The nonbelievers must be converted to Islam. Morals in your society, with women wearing revealing clothes, have gone wrong.”

Rudy,

I am not promoting hate. Is telling it as it is, promoting hate? The answer to all your questions as you pose them is Christians and Christianity. So what? Does that make the problems with Islam today any less or any better? Why is it saying that there are severe problems with the true believers of Islam in the world today, promoting hate? Why is telling the facts about "the faith of my fathers" as I have come to know it spreading hatred? Show me where I have lied, show me where I have misquoted the Quran, show me where I have misquoted the scholars of Quran and I will apologize and I will ask why I would do that. But if I am simply showing what the Quran itself says, what Muhammad said, what the Sahih Hadiath say, what Allah himself commanded then how can you possibly charge me with spreading hatred? If you do not like the honest face of Islam, then do not tell me that I am spreading hate but go pick up the Quran and the Sahih Ahdeeth and the various Tafsirs and read them for yourself.

So here is a challenge for you, show me one statement that I have made about Islam that is not directly from the "Official" books of Islam.

A. Kafir:

I notice that the diatribe against Muslims is continuing. You identified yourself as an ex-Muslim. I have a few questions for you to deal with before you level your accusations against another faith:

(a) What was the religion of those who colonized the world during the previous centuries and brought death and destruction to millions of people around the globe?

(b) What was the religion of those Europeans who destroyed the civilizations of the Maya, the Inca, and the Aztec civilizations?

(c) What was the religion of those Europeans who annihilated the native Americans (only 3 million left today)?

(d) What was the religion of those who decimated the population of the pre-Christian Australians ?

(e) How did the Christianization of Europe take place from the 4th century A.D. to the 18th century? Was it by force or by persuasion?

(f) What does this finger pointing by both Christians and Muslims accomplish? Are you and others promoting hate?

I know that you might accuse me of finger pointing. My point is that the picture is not pretty. Enough is enough!

Victoria,

Try looking up what argumentum ad hominem means.
The fact you feel the need to indulge in it tells the readers more about what you are admitting by it than anything about me.

I am an ex-muslim and I am used to muslims attacks and whining. Nothing new there.
Surprise us and try answering why your allah does not having a clue about basic genetics or biology, and is totally at a loss about simple physiology. All mankind created from a pair of a man and a woman!! Man created from a drop "proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs!! And you were the one who was going to take on the marvelous science in the Quran? I am willing to learn the science of the Quran ... go ahead and show the readers my ignorance and your Allah's all knowing nature.

Take the so's out if you don't like them ...

Are you suggesting that your muslim brothers, who love death more than life as taught by your prophet Muhammad, are not blowing each other up around the world? Do you read the main page of this paper?

And your answer to Arif does not amount to asserting that it is just dandy because muslims are doing and have been doing what the Christians have done in the past? Killing and blowing up is fine because others have done it?

Well Victoria, at least the others prophets and God did not tell them to kill and blow themselves up. That privilege does go to your Allah and your Prophet Muhammad ... Muhammad did declare that he has been commanded by Allah to kill till all the people submit to Islam. Kill the kafirs till they either willingly feel subdued and pay jizziya or they submit to Islam. Ex-muslims like myself don't even get that much choice. We have to submit or die. Now go ahead and tell me about "no compulsion in religion" in Islam.

k- youre such a pikey-

why is the finger of accusation always pointed outward with you?

"so why complain about the Muslims blowing each other up around the world."
"So it is just dandy because muslims are doing and have been doing what the christians have done in the past?"

whats with all these "so"s and suppostions?

thats coming from YOUR narrow and limited perspective-

i can answer any poster any way i want to-

arif does more than just whine and complain continually-

ive asnwered you repeatedly, but you dont have the guts to concede points well taken- debate logically- procede from point to point-

evey post you make is a predictable litany of your own prejudiced accusations, and quite frankly-

its pretty boring.

you seem to have a dismal knowledge of that which you attempt to deconstruct-

hence, your deconstructions are alos uninteresting

i liken it to my complaint about alot of abstract artists-

you have to have a grasp of reality before you can attmept to abstract it with any skill-

youre like an untalented pseudo-artist, throwing paint(or derogations) at a canvas (or blog) with no concept of that which you seek to redefine

(redefinition of reality- is a way to describe abstraction- my own personal defintion)

trying to talk a dumb person into buying your crappy art-
talking talking talking

with no idea of beauty, aesthetics-or reality.

im not buying your crappy constructions

quit being a pikey

Victoria,

See, see, the christians killed each other for 500 years and the irish were fighting and killing recently, and they happen to be christians, and then most of the people killed in the WWII were christians, and it was the Americans who were christians who nuked the buddhist Japanese (who were for some reason behaving very non-buddha like) ... so why complain about the Muslims blowing each other up around the world. They can kill each other as much as they like and they may have killed as much as they had wanted in the name of Muhammad in the past, it does not matter BECAUSE christians are no better.

So give the muslims a few hundred years of killing each other and let them have nukes and other newer biological weapons to kill each other and the Kafirs of course (the kafirs always get killed no matter what for Allah hates them so and cannot wait to pour molten metal on their heads and make them drink boiling liquids) . That would be fair!! After all they are simply doing what Muhammad, Islam's mighty prophet, did. Muhammad did not like a sect that did not follow him to attack the Romans at Tabuk, so he came back and declared them Kafirs, burned their Mosque down and killed them. Even Ali, Muhammad's cousin and son-in-law, was declared a kafir by other muslims and was assassinated in a mosque while saying his prayers (it was okay to attack in a mosque and kill him for he was not supposed to be there because he was a kafir .. you see).

So it is just dandy because muslims are doing and have been doing what the christians have done in the past?

TO HALOZCEL:

You asked of me, "Where did you get *ticket*,or *book* a place in the Kingdom.

Are you living in the United Kingdom."

I am not sure if I understand the first part of your question but if I do, my answer is that I stake not only my eternal destiny but my everlasting destiny that God's Plan is for ALL OF HIS CREATION TO BE RENEWED.

Before God created anything, God came up with a Plan, in that Plan, God gave us free will, He did not create us to be robots or puppets on a string.

I did not ask to be chosen by God but I have said Yes.

Besides the fact that God created absolutely everything except for Himself, the Trinity; God is a Being of Pure Love and we try to put God into boxes of our preconceived or religious notions.

I have met God, the Trinity, and it does not matter if anyone believes me or not, actually that is not important, I am just a messenger.

Something that I find extremely sad is the fact that some of the people that say that they believe that Jesus is God-Incarnate have absolutely no idea what Jesus lived and died for or what Jesus taught.

Jesus extended an invitation to us when He said, "Come follow Me", He did not say come follow the bible, did He?

The bible is not the Word of God, the bible is about the "WORD OF GOD". Jesus is the Word of God, and that Word is LOVE.

The bible should help lead someone to God but it is quite obvious that in some cases it does not.

Concerning the second part of your question, I live in the United States and I was also born in the United States.

Take care, be ready, see you and the rest of HUMANITY in the Kingdom, God's Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Victoria,

What ever happened to the Science in the Quran? A single pair of man and woman producing all of mankind, and what is that drop of liquid "proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs" that allah claims that humans are made from?

those are pretty valid questions arif-
ive asked some of those my self before-

its funny how much our ethnicities shape our worldview-

if you made this statement around my family-

"Perhaps the Jesus followers are onto a good thing? I don't see them exploding and taking others with them"

it would be answered with embarrassed silence-

were all irish, and not proud but pretty aware that for 100 years the irish and british chrisitans have been blowing each other up

the first modern urban guerilla warrior (what we call terrorists today) was an irishman named michael collins

well, it is what it is

im not making any attempt to paint christianity in a bad light to make islam appear superior-

i dont criticize other peoples- just my own

why didnt the irish stay there and fix their own problems instead of bringing their failed religion and barbaric laws?

(and they were both failed and barbaric)

well, they were starving to death-
half of the people who came on the boats died of starvation before they got to our shores-

a full half-

they(or we) certainly brought their own dysfuncional social problems with them too-

and alot more people wanted to get rid of them,than they do muslims now-

but, after a few years of solid food, and security- look what weve become.

i think arif- you would be jaw droppingly amazed at the history of the irish in america-

well, watch pbs around march-

Zeenat,
Tell your dad I don't care what Jesus did or did not do. I don't care about his relationship to God or the genetics involved. All I do care about is what Mohammed wrought upon this planet and what problems his religions causes to this day. Ask you dad a better question, why did he immigrate from his brother muslims and pure Islamic country. The reason I ask is that you believe that Islam is the best and only legitimate religion on the planet and Mohammed is the best example of mankind. Why it is that people of Islam are collectively living in misery, and why don't they fix their own problems instead of immigrating and demanding their host countries to accept their failed religion and barbaric laws?

My advice to you is to leave Jesus alone; he is not the cause of the misery of Muslims, where they kill even their own because they collectively don't understand their illiterate prophet’s religion of peace. Ask your dad why one group of Muslims think they are better than another group of Muslims, why one Muslim group orders a Muslim man to explode and kill another groups Muslim leader?
Perhaps the Jesus followers are onto a good thing? I don't see them exploding and taking others with them. Maybe its time you ask your dad to believe in Jesus being the Son of God? How about it? Huh!

The below post is a question to Thomas Baum

Where did you get *ticket*,or *book* a place in the Kingdom.
Are you living in the United Kingdom.

Zeenat's father:

1. How did Jesus die for my sin, when I was not
even born during his time?
2- If God is omnipresent and omnipotent, why did He come to earth as his own son?
3- How can the son of God and God be the same?
4- Being father and son is a genetic relationship?
Does God have the same genes as humans?
5- What happened to personal responsibility for committing sins, if someone already died for my sins?

6- And why did Jesus die for the sins of the billions of people yet to be born

My Answers:
1.Jesus was resurrected according to us, and never died according to Islam. In either case He is present before you were born, during your lifetime and after you are gone.

2. According to your Holy Book Jesus “is from the spirit of Allah”. That is what we mean by being “the son of God”.
3. They are the same in essence.
4.There is a physical genetic relation between Jesus and his mother Mary.
5. Personal responsibility in repenting and following His teachings.
You sacrifice goats and camels for atonement. You just got through the Sacrifice Holiday. Jesus is our sacrificial lamb, and being without sin that is an universal atonement for whoever accept that sacrifice by acknowledging this sacrifice and repenting and trying to follow His teachings. God does not forgive sin, because that means He does not take sin seriously. The penalty for sin is death, which in our understanding is the separation from God. God instead atones but requires a “pure blood “ i.e. not blood infected by sin.
6. Because God knows that his human creation is imperfect.

These are my personal answers and I am the farthest from being a theologian.

Thomas "The Moses of the NT" Baum continues to with his visions of God and Love as he continues "spouting" and spotting in his medically-driven hallucinatory state.

Zeenat writes:

"A. Kafir:
Are Rama, Buddha, Ravana, Vishnu, Brahma, and the god of destruction mythical or fictional characters too?
Is the inequality in the caste system by virtue of birth fictional too?
Are urine-drinking (among the Hindus), burning of brides alive for the sake of dowry, burning alive of widows in the name of sati , painting of homes with cow dung paste also mythical?"

As pointed out to you before that Buddha (i.e. Gautama Buddha) is a historical figure but next to nothing is really known about him. The buddhists have obviously embellished a lot of mumbo jumbo around him. Rama, Ravana, Vishnu, Brahma are charachters of hindu mythology. The inequality in the caste system by virtue of birth is very real in India at the moment, as I understand, although it has been banned by law but it is still very much real and still very much a blight on the human condition.

I would not know how much urine drinking is prevalent among the hindus. You should ask them. I do know that there are hadith about camel urine drinking of Muhammad. So do the muslims still drink camel urine, I do not know. I did not use to drink camel urine. Again, I understand sati, or burning of widows, does not happen anymore, but you should ask that of hindus. They may know more what the status is of that. Burning for dowry .. I have read that in the news of India and Pakistan. It is awful and apparently it still takes place amongst the sub-continentals.

I asked you before and I ask you again: showing other religions are bad makes Islam good by your logic? We are talking about American Muslim identity. So even if all the other religions are no good and lousy, how does that justify the problems of Islam? How does that justify the deep hatred for the kafirs in the Quran? At least the hindus can point to and say that they have legally banned caste system in India, and that the Chief Minister of their Largest state is from an outcaste tribe. Where have the Muslims tried to modernize and deal fairly with the kafirs? The news from Malaysia is that the non-muslims are not even being allowed to use the word "Allah" for god. Ahmeddiyas are charged with blasphemy in Pakistan if they even post the shahadda in their houses or shops. There are many many examples from around the world.

Do you know of any any Muslim who is even willing to say that the punishments in the Quran (the Hadd punishments) are too barbaric and should not be considered in the modern world? Is there anything, anything in the Quran that you find dubious? How about answering the question that I have posed to Victoria about which drop emitted "proceeding" from between the ribs and backbone. Your allah says it. What is he talking about there?

TO ZEENAT:

It seems quite obvious that you do not read what people write, I am not saying that you don't believe it but you don't even read it.

Why ask questions if you are not the least bit interested in someone answering?

As far as the Jews being the Chosen People that does not mean that they are better, it just means that they are the Chosen People.

There was no such thing as a Jew until God chose and formed them.

They were chosen and formed to make it safe enough for God to become one of us and live long enough thru the obedience of a few, to raise and protect God-Incarnate, to do what He came to do.

You also wrote, "God gave us 5 senses that make us rational human beings associating cause and effect in a rational way.", God also gave us free will.

Take care, see you in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

A. Kafir:

Are Rama, Buddha, Ravana, Vishnu, Brahma, and the god of destruction mythical or fictional characters too?

Is the inequality in the caste system by virtue of birth fictional too?

Are urine-drinking (among the Hindus), burning of brides alive for the sake of dowry, burning alive of widows in the name of sati , painting of homes with cow dung paste also mythical?

Zeenat,

I have never understood the overwhelming desire of the muslims to never answer questions about Islam itself but try to move to attack the other religions as rapidly as possibly. First you called me a polytheist, and now you proceed to ask about christianity and its beliefs. Why? This column is about the American Muslim Identity and what it means.

You were shown that Abraham was fictional. So is Moses, did you know? As far as I am concerned, so is Jesus. The proofs offered that he was a historical figure are pretty slim pickings. If you are so eager to know about the various aspects of christian theology, then I suggest you ask a christian theologian.

A. Kafir:

1- How did Jesus die for my sins, when I was not even born during his time?
2- If God is omnipresent and omnipotent, why did He come to earth as his own son?
3- How can the son of God and God be the same?
4- Being father and son is a genetic relationship?
Does God have the same genes as humans?
5- What happened to personal responsibility for committing sins, if someone already died for my sins?

6- And why did Jesus die for the sins of the billions of people yet to be born?

Victoria,

I showed the daftness of Allah in telling you that he created All Mankind from a single pair of man and woman. You find that consistent with science of today?
Let us take another example:
086.005
YUSUFALI: Now let man but think from what he is created!
086.006
YUSUFALI: He is created from a drop emitted-
086.007
YUSUFALI: Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs:

So, Victoria tell us which drop is emitted "proceeding" from between the backbone and the ribs?

Be sure to look at the funny and silly explanations given of this belief of the ancient greeks (see Aristotle and Galens theories for instance) by people like Zakir Naik and Harun Yayaha. So tell us which drop is the Quran talking about here?

Thomas Baum:

And you wrote: "....King of the Jews, (the Chosen People), ..."

What happened to "All humans are created equal?

Thomas Baum"

You wrote: "Jesus did say before we killed Him,..."

I don't know if I am confused or you are confused"

How can humans kill omnipotent and omniscient?

God gave us 5 senses that make us rational human beings associating cause and effect in a rational way.

TO ZEENAT:

You wrote, "1- How did Jesus die for my sins, when I was not even born during his time?
2- If God is omnipresent and omnipotent, why did He come to earth as his own son?
3- How can the son of God and God be the same?
4- Being father and son is a genetic relationship?
Does God have the same genes as humans?
5- What happened to personal responsibility for committing sins, if someone already died for my sins?
6- And why did Jesus die for the sins of the billions of people yet to be born?

1. Part of God's Plan and it gives you or anyone else the opportunity to follow in His Footsteps as in His invitation to "Come follow Me".

2. God is also omnisient, all-knowing, and a Trinity and the Second Person of the Trinity gave up His Omni's, so to speak, and kept only the Pure Essence of God, which is Love, to become One of us so that He could speak directly to us and become truly human, as human as you and me and everyone else that has been, is or will be human. Also part of God's Plan that God has had since before creation.

3. Jesus did not say the same, He said, "I and the Father are One", by the way, I am just a messenger, I am not God. I have met the Trinity, I am not here to explain the Trinity, just to speak in advance of the Total Victory of the Mysterious Plan of God, God always sends someone.

4. God is a Being of Pure Love, God-Incarnate, Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews, (the Chosen People), did become just as human as every other human being. Jesus did say before we killed Him, "Unless a man be born from above..." of course He did not put a time frame on being born from above, did He?

5. If you actually read what I have written before, I have said many times that we are responsible for what we do and that repenting is taking responsibility for our actions. I have also said, it is important what you do and why you do it and what you know, have I not? If anyone thinks about this, maybe what actually being a christian is suppose to be, might come to mind as in, "Come follow Me".

6. Because God's Plan is for ALL OF HUMANITY. God wins, satan loses, a tie is unacceptable.

Be ready, take care, the night of the sixth day is coming but the dawning of the seventh day will arrive in due time, see you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Thomas Baum:

You did not answer my questions which are:

1- How did Jesus die for my sins, when I was not even born during his time?
2- If God is omnipresent and omnipotent, why did He come to earth as his own son?
3- How can the son of God and God be the same?
4- Being father and son is a genetic relationship?
Does God have the same genes as humans?
5- What happened to personal responsibility for committing sins, if someone already died for my sins?

6- And why did Jesus die for the sins of the billions of people yet to be born?

TO RALPH AND THE REST OF HUMANITY:

I don't consider myself a particularly religious or spiritual person, just someone who knows that I have done wrong.

I cherish my catholic faith but I walked away from the church when I was in my late teens because it was turning into a religion to me.

Even tho I walked away, I still believed in God and I believed in God until I met God, now I know that God is real.

There are some people that call themselves "christian" and it seems like the only thing that they know about God is His Name.

I once either heard or read that Mahatma Ghandi once said that he would not become a christian because of "christians", does this reflect on Jesus or does this reflect on some that call themselves "christian"?

Jesus did not teach hatred and for that matter, He also did not teach tolerance but He taught Love and one of the things the original apostles did get was, "These are hard sayings".

The True, Living, Triune, Triumphant God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof.

Calling yourself something and actually trying to be that something is not necessarily the same thing.

It is important what you do and why you do it and what you know.

God has a Plan and has had His Plan since before He created anything and His Plan is unfolding before our very eyes and as I said, God is not a He, a She or an it but is a Being of Pure Love, a Trinity of Pure Love.

Some People say that God sent His Son and this is true but we seem to not see that He Who became Jesus chose to become Jesus.

Jesus became the Son of God when He became the Son of Man but He has always been the Second Person of the Trinity of course this is just using human language to try to decribe the Oneness of the Trinity of God.

There is not three gods and there is not some kind of hierarcy of God and that is why when Jesus said, "I and the Father are One" He spoke the Truth which is unexplainable in human language and even tho I have met the Trinity, I can't explain it either but I can tell humanity that it is True.

Take care, be ready night is coming, but the dawning of the seventh day will also get here, see you all in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Skeptic:
Before answering Victoria's challenge to "prove the scientific miracles in the Quran" have her comment on my post of 12-27 titled "Quran a Science Book". Then let us see if she would have the audacity to posit that a book that does not know where"the sun sets" would explain Einstein Theory of Relativity.

Arif:
I don't know about anyone else but I did ask my dad. He said to ask you the following questions:
1- How did Jesus die for my sins, when I was not even born during his time?
2- If God is omnipresent and omnipotent, why did He come to earth as his own son?
3- How can the son of God and God be the same?
4- Being father and son is a genetic relationship?
Does God have the same genes as humans?
5- What happened to personal responsibility for committing sins, if someone already died for my sins?

6- And why did Jesus die for the billions of people yet to be born?

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

The fact is that Mohammed was a womanizing, illiterate, warmongering Arab whose closest encounter with Allah i.e. the "it thingie" or a "pretty wingie thingie" was in some hot cave during a 30 day fast filled with hallucinations i.e. the koran is not some heavenly document but sayings and passages borrowed, stolen and/or plagiarized from the Babylonians, Macedonians, Greeks, Romans, Persians, Egyptians and of all people the Jews.

And I see you completely ignored mentioning the Islamic stench of the koran that resulted in Wednesday's assassination of Benazir Bhutto.

hi all-

hi ralph- well, im a religious type folk, and i consistently use non-gender specific references when using pronouns for the god

she/he and him/her etc-
jusr for the record- no muslim anywhere believes that the god has a sex-
find one and ask them if ALLAH is male or female!

skeptic you stated-
"The "scientific truths" in the Koran are incidental. All of the books contain portions of things that are scientifically valid. They also contain many many factual errors."

well- im only speaking for the qu'ran

do you mean scientific truths in the qu'ran are co-incidental?
i not quite sure what it means for a scientific fact to be "incidental".

since you put "scientific facts" in parentheses, i'll assume your mind is somewhat made up in advance as to the validity of it- it is in question for you before you start.

its ok to question, of course, but then you state with certainty that all books (which includes the qu'ran) contain factual errors.

so, that is beyond asking questions, and into the realm of you presenting something as a fact-

ill tell you what-
in the interest of logical dialogue-
since youve made a contention already- the onus is on you to prove that-

so you come back with the errors, and well discuss it.

if youve already made a decision about it, well- ill ignore your initial question as just a little premature on your part, before you thought it out fully -

and we can just deal with the matured question (it would be time wasting to answer a question youre not asking, wouldnt it?)

your intitial inquiry-
"All reference their own books, canons, creeds or sacred writings as proof that theirs is the right way.
Muslims say "the Koran is the word of god" and point to the Koran as proof of that.
There is no external evidence, much less "proof" that any of these 3 are right or in any way more valid than any of the world's other myriad religions, or indeed more right than NO religion.
Stop quoting your holy books to support/validate/prove your belief systems. Give me independant empirical evidence that your viewpoint is more right than any other."

now, i wasnt talking about some comparative 'mine is better than your' philosophy-

my idea is- if there are solid scientific proofs offered-
whose source of any knowledge was completely non-existent at the time-
the strength and provability of the facts themselves would lend credence to access to an intelligence that was superior to women at the time.

so, i asked if that would be sufficient to you- you didnt answer that-
if youve decided in advance its not sufficient- it would be foolish for me to preenet it, wouldnt it?
so let me know what the errors are- and we can go from there.

if you dont come back with the errors, ill have to assume you werent able to find them.

k- what do you have against harun yahya?

ill use any source i deem valid!

besides, all you do is complain-
why dont you come up with some constructive creative ideas?

build something in the realm of ideas for once instead of just tearing down what others have created.

any human can criticize

it takes real intelligence and spark to create!

TO RALPH:

You wrote, "I notice that, no matter how much many of the "religious" folk differ in their beliefs, they all refer to God as "He".

In some of my postings, I have made a reference to this.

I said, that when I refer to God as He, it is because I have to use some kind of pronoun.

I have met God and God is not a He or a She or an it.

God is Love, Pure Love even though God-Incarnate was a Man.

God is a Trinity, Jesus flat out said He was God and He was not lying.

Take care, be ready, see you in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

I notice that, no matter how much many of the "religious" folk differ in their beliefs, they all refer to God as "He". Being that women were not educated and only men were allowed to write, and wrote all of the bible, etc., it seems that they assumed that God was male. Further, only men were allowed by men to run the churchs, etc. Why is God supposed to be male, or of any sex, for that matter? Humans are of both sexes, for the purposes of procreation, God would have no such need. I have often thought of what a terrific suprise it will be, if we go to someplace after death and are greeted by a very angry and female God!

The stench of Islam raised to a new level today with the assassination of one their young and bright leaders by one or more of their own significantly stupid and koranic brainwashed Islamics.

Rants by liberal Muslims against this violence will not suffice. The flaws in the koran which are the foundations of said violence must be corrected now.

Faithful Muslim:

The following news is from today showing you the tolerance towards and the status of the kafirs in Malaysia, a moderate and advance muslim country that you wanted us to see.
**************************
Hindu woman loses case against Muslim husband

KUALA LUMPUR: A Hindu woman lost her bid to stop the conversion of her child to Islam after Malaysia’s highest court on Thursday ruled that her now Muslim husband can convert their elder son. “After a careful study of authorities, I am of the opinion that the complaint is misconceived. Either husband or wife has the right to convert a child of the marriage to Islam,” Federal Court judge Nik Hashim Nik Abdul Rahman, who headed a three-judge bench, told the court. “The argument that both parents are vested with equal right to choose is misplaced. Hence the conversion of the elder son to Islam by the husband, did not violate the federal constitution,” he added. In one of a series of cases that have highlighted racial tensions in Muslim majority Malaysia, R Subashini’s battle began in May 2006 when her husband converted to Islam, along with their eldest son, four-year-old Dharvin Joshua. The husband then launched proceedings in an Islamic Sharia court for divorce and custody of their second son, two-year-old Sharvin. Lawyers say there is growing fear among non-Muslims that the Muslim majority is trampling their rights. Subashini’s lawyer K Shanmuga described the court decision as a “blow” to his client. “The decision is a blow to Subashini as it causes great uncertainty about her children and what would become of their religion and custody rights,” he said. Subashini failed to get an injunction to stop her husband from seeking a divorce in a Sharia court and prevent him from converting their children. afp
**************************

Converting a child to muslim can be done by either parent, but once that child has been converted to Islam and once a muslim there is no way out of being a muslim. All identity cards carry the religion and discrimination is built into all the laws of the country against the non-muslims. Let the Kafirs be aware that is what even the moderate Islam offers them. Do you think the judges of Malaysia do not know their islam? But you and eboo and Maher Hathout do? How long do you think the lies that MPAC peddles will really sell?

Faithful Muslim;
You have a problem; Islam. Your one and only problem is just that. You should go to your parents and ask them a question; Aboo why did you immigrate to the West? You may not get a good answer from him too because even he maybe confused on this subject. You see if you are a first generation Muslim in the US as you say then this is what you need to consider...
Muslims believe that Islam is Allah's favored religion; they believe that Sharia is Allah's perfect law; they believe that Muslims should have prosperity and peace because they have Islam.

Pakistan was created for that one reason, to have a pure Islamic state. Perhaps your parents emigrated from Pakistan to the US, they did that because the "land of the pure" failed them, and actually Islam failed them. Your puny responses to me about Hindu/Christian skirmishes and Serb/Muslim rivalry are rubbish. When you compare that with what Muslim are doing to Muslims.

The Shiia hate the Sunni, they in turn hate the Ahmediyya and vice versa. Each calls the other a non-Muslim. Go read a book about Serbia and how that hatred came about, you'll learn it all started with the Ottomans. Wherever there are Muslims there is hatred and violence, look at your own backyard, Pakistan. Don't worry about New Delhi, India has outpaced Pakistan in every aspect.

You ask; "Who do you think you are?"
A very informed ex-Muslim that’s who. You can achieve such great happiness and understanding if you leave the stupid cult of Islam and join the rest of humanity leave your Muslim superstitions behind. Think about it this way you will not have to ever circle the black stone and kiss it when you reach it. You won't have to throw stones at an imaginary devil too while there. You won’t have to behead an animal again for “sacrifice”.
About those priests scuffling, who the hell cares about a scuffle? Why don't you care about Muslims blowing up Muslims in Pakistan or don't you care? Showing me these news items only shows your lack of grasping the main problem; Islam today. You think that by saying, Oh! Look they fight too so we are not that bad after all. What kind of childish thinking is that?

Islam is NOT going through reformation. What reformation? Do you think informed Muslims want to do away with Sharia? or flogging adulteresses? Or cutting off thief’s hands? Or allowing Mohammed Cartoons? Do you think that there should be no Jizziya, slavery? If you want reformation then please let us know what is it that will reform Islam and if that is done will it be similar to Christianity, Buddhism? What is there in the Koran that you would like to reform, delete or abrogate?

Faithful Muslim wrote:
"The bigots keep insisting that it is all Muslims' fault. IT IS NOT"
I think you are onto something here; for once you are correct and seem to have a vision. You are right it is not the Muslims fault; in fact it is your prophet Mohammed’s fault who brought upon mankind such a filthy cult masquerading as a religion.

Faithful Muslim writes:

"You changed the subject. My statement was in response to a bigoted statement that Muslim countries are underdeveloped and that Christans, Jews and Hindus have been defanged. Balony!

You can offer all explanations (i.e. these are tiny states), you like, my three posts from WP's religion page debunked the argument that any religion has been defanged and Muslim countries are underdeveloped. All false paradigms."

No I have not changed the subject at all. The only thing that really distinguishes Islam from the other religions is the deep, very deep, hatred for the other imbedded in Islam. Muslim to muslim teaching of Islam are no different than chritianities. But how to treat the other is very different. And that is reflected by the city states you pointed to. They are rich, they are technically advanced, and they are way ahead of the latin countries but despite all those advantages the backward latin countries and their laws are far fairer and equal for the "other" than those of the countries you pointed to. Why? And that is what you do not want to acknowledge ... It is Islam and its hatred for the Kafir.

The fact remains that it is the true believers of Islam, who quote the Quran and the sunnah of Muhammad who behead victims on video, who blow themselves up, who blow babies on school buses and then you have the parents of the bombers come on TV praising the horrible acts and thank Allah and be happy for the blood of the martry smells of the perfume of heaven. Show me in all the examples you give where the christians, or the hindus or the buddhists quote their holy scriptures as they kill. Show me one tamil tiger crediting Buddha or a Rama or Krsna for the killing they do. Show me one christian crediting Jesus's example for their acts.

You can deny the difference but every time a muslim blows himself or herself up with the green banner carrying the Shahadda on their forehead, your denial and comparisons become meaningless and you show yourself incapable of looking at the problem the Sunnah of Muhammad is causing to the Muslims in the 21st century. Face the problem .. it is not going away.

If the Jihadi's are able to destablise Pakistan with the assassination of Bhutto today, your country India is not going to be very far behind. The jihadis do consider India to be part of the Dar-ul-Islam and they want it back just as they want spain back.

A. Kafir:

You changed the subject. My statement was in response to a bigoted statement that Muslim countries are underdeveloped and that Christans, Jews and Hindus have been defanged. Balony!

You can offer all explanations (i.e. these are tiny states), you like, my three posts from WP's religion page debunked the argument that any religion has been defanged and Muslim countries are underdeveloped. All false paradigms.

Faithful Muslim writes:

"No, taunting just facts. It is obvious that YOU HAVE NEVER BEEN TO DUBAI, ABU DHABI, QATAR, MALAYSIA ETC. These countries are more developed than any country in Latin America.
The hard liners here can attack Muslims with impunity and when Muslims fight back, it is called taunting.
The fact remains that the Christian Serbs committed the genocide of Muslims just because they were Muslims. You are trying to deflect that by calling it with another name, "Ethnic conflict." How hypocritical!
I hope you read my first two posts in which I stated that this whole debate as to who is more tolerant is silly and that both Islam and Christianity have a bloody history.
The bigots keep insisting that it is all Muslims' fault. IT IS NOT."

It is not all Muslims fault. It is Islam's fault. And till the muslims are able to deal with it honestly and openly there will be problems for the muslims. The example of the muslim countries you give: Malaysia ... have you ever heard of lin Joy? A woman does not want to remain a muslim but the Malaysian Laws do not allow a muslim to apostatize. She has to first give testimony against herself in Sharia Court and face the punishment prescribef by them. Read how the non-muslims are being treated in Malaysia. Tell me one backward latin American country where Muslims are treated with as much hatred and discrimination as they are being treated in Malaysia. Take the next city state Dubai. It is ruled by a single family. It is a small small city state as part of a group of other states. The Sheihk family has been liberal and educated and trying to modernize. However, the laws of the state deny even a semblance to any equality to the non-muslims. Abu Dhabi, Qatar, etc. you are still talking about tiny tiny city states run by single families still, and would you like to claim that the non-muslims have equal rights in these countries?

Overwhelming number of muslims around the world do not the actual history of Islam or muhammad. They really do buy into the image of Muhammad being a person who would not hurt a fly. When hadith are showing otherwise the first reaction is to deny the validity of the hadith. Oh they are daef, they cannot be trusted. Get over that, then the second line of defense is that the actions were justified and it was all the fault of the pagans, etc. The fact is that the core reason given is that Islam had to prevail and anything to that end was and is acceptable in Islam.

The example of problems with Islam is the central role of Muhammad. An example: Muhammad married a six year old and that is his sunnah. That is part of Sharia. Muslim countries that have set the age of marriage for girls different than first menstruation or nine years of age are all under pressure from the Mullahs and the imams that they are not following Islam!! That is the justification given around the world for marriage of immature girls to old old muslim men. The question that I have never ever seen any imam or reformer give is when Quran says that Muhammad was an exemplary example to follow then how do you declare any action of his as unfit to follow in the modern age?

Faithful Muslim, you seem to be of Indian Origin as indicated by some of what you have written. Tell me how many sheiks from Qatar, Abu Dhabi, and Dubai fly into Hyderabad and wed poor indian muslim children for a day or so? Marriage and Talaq .. all in one day!! And that is sanctioned by the mullahs who perform those marriages and the divorces.

You can compare islam to christianity, to hinduism, to buddhism, etc, all you like but the core problem of modernizing the Sunnah of Muhammad will keep staring you in the face till you deal with truthfully and honestly. Lie about it and you are solving nothing but hiding from the core problem, which can no longer be hidden in this day and age of easy access to information.

Faithfull Muslim:

Kudos for making logical, rational statements and not giving into intimidations.

I agree with you that in today's world it is important to keep channels of communication open and find ways to "live and let live." Of course, the bigots keep insisting that it is not possible.

ANONYMOUS:

No, taunting just facts. It is obvious that YOU HAVE NEVER BEEN TO DUBAI, ABU DHABI, QATAR, MALAYSIA ETC. These countries are more developed than any country in Latin America.

The hard liners here can attack Muslims with impunity and when Muslims fight back, it is called taunting.

The fact remains that the Christian Serbs committed the genocide of Muslims just because they were Muslims. You are trying to deflect that by calling it with another name, "Ethnic conflict." How hypocritical!

I hope you read my first two posts in which I stated that this whole debate as to who is more tolerant is silly and that both Islam and Christianity have a bloody history.

The bigots keep insisting that it is all Muslims' fault. IT IS NOT.

Faithful Muslim:
You keep harping on how the Christian Serbs attacked Serbrenicia. This is a politically based feud between two ethnic groops; the Albanian who happen to be Muslims and the Serbs who happen to be Christians. Besides we rushed in there not to fight along side our coreligionists, the Serbs, but along the side of the Muslim Albanians and against our coreligionists. If it were not for us there would not be today any Albanians inside historical Yougoslavia.
As for taunting us that being a Christian is not a sure guarantee of development. Maybe that is true but being a Muslim is a sure guarantee of being underdeveloped.It is true that the Phillipines and BraZil are not as developed as North America or Western Europe,but they are sure a lot more developed than the most developed of Muslim dominated countries.

Sara writes: "As one of first generation of Muslim Americans born in this country, I have to say that Mr. Patel has cut through the chase and very succinctly captured the essence of the problem among Muslim Americans. People like me grew up with the same identity crisis, but were unable to connect words to our feelings for a long time. A lot of those issues are resolved, but some aren't. According to Reza Aslan, Islam is going through a reformation- and the violence and intolerance that the world sees is a product of that. We are so blessed to have MPAC in this country- because their vision- and the vision of Mr. Hathout- is the solution to the chaos we are living in."

The problem is that the reformation is being built on lies. Dr. Hathout totally denies the history of Muhammad and Islam, and as Arif correctly states the reformers are attempting to create a fiction of a peaceful, loving, wouldn't hurt a fly, kind Muhammad.

In Maher Hathout's own words to PBS frontline:
*******************
But tell me, this organization ... do you differentiate between Sunni Islam or Shiite or...

I'm not in this center. I'm not in that organization. As a matter of fact, we believe that Islam is documented in the Koran and modeled by the personality of prophet Mohammed, peace be upon him; and anything else is manmade. So it is a give and take, and Islam should adapt and accommodate the different cultures. This is why there is an Egyptian Muslim identity, there is an Indian Muslim identity, and there should be an American Muslim identity.

.....

We've touched on this. But what is the creed of Islam that is preached in Saudi Arabia? What is it called?

Well, the word "creed" is important because the creed of Islam is the same: the belief in one God, the belief in the oneness of his message, the oneness of the human family. And the devotion to God should be expressed in human rights, good manners, and mercy, peace, justice, and freedom. No two Muslims will argue about this creed. It is documented in the Koran as the highest authority, modeled by the authentic teaching of the prophet, and the authenticity has always been subject of study and debate.

***************************

The problem that Maher Mathout and other moderate muslims do not address is that in the creed of Islam Kafirs, non-muslims, have no place other than as willingly subdued dhimmis, dead, or at war with the muslims. That is in the Koran, and the example of Muhammad. When Mathout says "oneness of the human family" it is a code for Islam dominates period. Anyone who does not understand that clearly needs to read the Quran for themselves.

Islam cannot be reformed because Muhammad's example is not of a peaceful loving person who could live with people of other faiths or other beliefs. He explicitly stated that his mission was to kill ("fight") till all humans submitted to Islam. How do you reform that? Muhammad beheaded thousands, enslaved and traded thousands of women and children, and banished the christians, the jews, and the pagans from the Islamic lands declaring that only Islam was allowed. How do you reform that? Reformation cannot be built on lies, and if the moderate muslims want to reform, they need to first start telling the truth about Muhammad and Islamic History. Lies of the moderates are washed out by the jihadi imams by couple of readings of the islamic scriptures. No moderate imam dares challenge the real Mullahs, the real Imams in the islamic world.

Reza Aslan can sit in the good ole USA and write nonsense that the ignorant kafirs can buy. In Iran he would be singing an entirely different tune or he would swing from the nearest pole.

Arif: Another piece from WP's religion page. All this is falling on your face in the light of your statements:

Priests Scuffle Inside Bethlehem Church

The Associated Press
Thursday, December 27, 2007; 7:27 AM

BETHLEHEM, West Bank -- Robed Greek Orthodox and Armenian priests went at each other with brooms and stones inside the Church of the Nativity on Thursday as long-standing rivalries erupted in violence during holiday cleaning.

The basilica, built over the grotto in Bethlehem where Christians believe Jesus was born, is administered jointly by Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox and Armenian Apostolic authorities. Any perceived encroachment on one group's turf can set off vicious feuds.

On Thursday, dozens of priests and cleaners came to the fortress-like church to scrub and sweep the floors, walls and rafters ahead of the Armenian and Orthodox Christmas, celebrated in the first week of January. Thousands of tourists visited the church this week for Christmas celebrations.
ad_icon

But the cleanup turned ugly after some of the Orthodox faithful stepped inside the Armenian church's section, touching off a scuffle between about 50 Greek Orthodox and 30 Armenians.

Palestinian police, armed with batons and shields, quickly formed a human cordon to separate the two sides so the cleaning could continue, then ordered an Associated Press photographer out of the church.

Four people, some with blood running from their faces, were slightly wounded.

Arif: "Go back there and wake up your people and teach them the newfound ChristoIslam, where Mohammed is a good loving kind man,..."

Who do you think you are? You are in no position to tell me what to do or not do. I didn't tell you to go to Srebrenica and speak to murderous Serb Christians or go to Northern Ireland and tell them that their 400 year old war is based on religious and sectarian fanaticism or tell the Army of God fanatics that their murderous ways represent fascism.

I did not tell you to tell the Christian Latin America or the people of the Philippines that their lack of development is because of their faith.

Re: Quran as a book of science

18:86
Until when he reached
The setting of the sun,
He found it set
In a spring of murky water:

Translation: The sun sets in a well with hot mud.

31:10
He created the heavens
Without any pillars that ye
Can see; He set
On the earth mountains
Standing firm, lest it
Should shake with you;

Translation: The mountains are put there to anchor the earth so it would not move.

23 :12-14
Then We did create
From a quintessence(of clay)

Then We placed him
As(a drop of) semen
In a place of rest,
Firmly fixed;

Then We made the semen
Into a clot of congealed blood;
Then of that clot We made
A lump; then We
Made out of that lump
Bones and clothed the bones
With flesh; then We developed
Out of it another creature.

Translation: The semen became a clot of blood, then a lump and the lump became a skeleton and after that the skeleton was clothed with flesh. Have you ever heard of a woman aborting a skeleton?

These are supposedly the explanation given by the Creator on some natural phenomena. It does not sound to me to be anymore scientific than would be expected of a 7th Century desert dweller.Yet some like Najjar of Egypt and others try unabashedly to use such verses to "prove" the "miracles" of the Quran.

Arif: AND DID YOU READ THIS ON THE SAME RELIGION PAGE IN WP?

How shallow can one be!

Hindus, Christians Clash Again in India

NEW DELHI -- Hindu extremists attacked village churches and burned down the home of a prominent Christian politician Thursday, officials said.

Gangs of Hindus and Christians defied a curfew imposed following two days of attacks by Hindu hard-liners. Local police have been unsuccessful in halting the attacks and the federal government announced it was sending in a paramilitary force.

A mob of Hindus torched the house of Radhakant Nayak, a member of the Indian parliament's upper house and a Christian leader in the area, Nayak told the CNN-IBN news channel. .......

Arif: Your words are hollow. Did you read this today's WP:

Hindu Extremists Attack Churches on Christmas
Groups ransack and burn eight rural churches in eastern India, killing one and marring Christmas celebrations in area with a history of violence against Christians.

TO ZEENAT:

You wrote, "When there was nothing, God was there and when there will be nothing He will still be there."

The first part of the sentence is correct, "When there was nothing, God was there".

The second part of the sentence is not correct, "and when there will be nothing He will still be there".

God did not create absolutely everything just for His entertainment or whatever it is you think might be His reasons for His creation.

If you wish to actually read what I posted on 12-26-2007 at 11:37 AM and think about it, then go ahead and if not then don't.

As I so tried to write very simply and directly, God is not some twisted egomaniac but is a Being of Pure Love.

I have met God and God is a Trinity of Pure Love with a Plan.

I am not a know-it-all, just a messenger chosen to be the MP for the coming PM, which Jesus spoke about.

Take care, be ready, see you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

"I condemn Muslim extremists like the Al-Qaida or the Taliban. It is up to Christians, Jews, and Hindus to condemn their extremists. But I am just an ordinary citizen."

Not enough, you need to do more, it's somewhat like this; don't tell me stupid tell them!
The Jews, Christians and Hindus are defanged, they are the economic engine of the world, while the Muslims build their armies and the Jihadists build their terrorist batteries their people suffer. Muslims blame the Jews for everything they do wrong; they blame the Christians of the West for economic woes they face and the dictators that rule them.
The Christian fanatics of the world pale in comparison to the Muslims, Islam has an army of fanatics, the Muslim fanatic is the only perpetrator who can issue a death sentence on anyone they choose. Today’s news about Ms. Bhutto being assassinated, will there be riots on the scale of the Mohammed cartoons world over? I doubt it.

Islam is in shambles; the intellectuals of Islamic countries flock to the West and then defend Islam from glass houses. Go back there and wake up your people and teach them the newfound ChristoIslam, where Mohammed is a good loving kind man, tell them his books murderous verses no longer apply today. Purge the hadits of all the nasty things Mohammed did like marrying numerous women, tell them it was not true. Tell them Mohammed never fought wars those were simply made up. Today Ms. Bhutto was killed in the name of Allah, one wise woman once told me these words of wisdom; more people are killed in the name of God/Allah than Satan.

Bhutto's assassination proves once again:

Until the koran is "deflawed", no one is safe!!!"

As one of first generation of Muslim Americans born in this country, I have to say that Mr. Patel has cut through the chase and very succinctly captured the essence of the problem among Muslim Americans. People like me grew up with the same identity crisis, but were unable to connect words to our feelings for a long time. A lot of those issues are resolved, but some aren't. According to Reza Aslan, Islam is going through a reformation- and the violence and intolerance that the world sees is a product of that. We are so blessed to have MPAC in this country- because their vision- and the vision of Mr. Hathout- is the solution to the chaos we are living in.

Skeptic in Reston:

If you and other readers read my first two posts in which I stated that the history of both Islam and Christianity is bloody and that the debate over who is more tolerant is silly.

The issue today is as to how we get along in today's world. Should we continue the old path of violence or should we engage in a dialog and develop an understanding on the principle of live and let others live? I do not disagree with you.

I condemn Muslim extremists like the Al-Qaida or the Taliban. It is up to Christians, Jews, and Hindus to condemn their extremists. But I am just an ordinary citizen.

Ibrahim,

When I said "Crusades, and the Inquisition one century and Jihad the next" I was obviously generalizing, because the crusades happened over several centuries and there have been jihads on and off since Islam was founded. My point was that both of the religions have been the aggressors (but always seem to consider themselves the victims). Its tit for tat.

You bomb my mosque I'll burn your church.

You deny god's existence I will cut your tongue out.

"You called my prophet a rapist pedophile... You die scum dog pig!"

"eye for an eye"

Zeenat,

I did not say that "religion is the only reason for wars"... I said "... religious strife and conflict that has caused wars, violence and death throughout history." This is not saying that religious differences cause all wars but that they do indeed cause many. You cannot deny this.
Even though many of the conflicts that you reference are economically justified, if you look at them closely most are largely based on tiny sectarian differences in their religions.

As for your final point, no I do not know how to solve "identity conflicts".

Humans are in general a very self centered and insecure lot so somone will always find a reason to hate or discriminate against their fellow humans. I am not such an idealist or so naive to believe people will ever change our basic nature.

Victoria,

I simply said that all of the faiths point to their own documents as evidence that theirs is the right way and that by extension their god is GOD. Each simply says the same thing while pointing in a different direction. The Torah says God is God so he is. The Koran says Allah is God so he is. The NT says Jesus is God so he is. "See it says it right here in our book... What more proof do you need?"
They can't all be right so naturally each claims that theirs is the truth and the others are wrong.

The "scientific truths" in the Koran are incidental. All of the books contain portions of things that are scientifically valid. They also contain many many factual errors.

What I want is even a smidgin of evidence outside of your own texts that even one of your gods is the real one or even exists at all. In my argument, proving the text proves the god. Thus I am indeed asking for proof of the existence of your or any particular god.

Victoria writes:

"if it were proven to your satisfaction that the qu'ran contains clear scientific knowledge of things that werent discernible scientifically until modern times,(and completely impossible to anticipate or know in 630ish AD)
would that be sufficient for you?"

Here we go with Harun Yayha, Zakir Naik, and other cut and paste jobbies from Science in the Quran sites. Victoria, just tell the good folks the sites and be done with it.

There is no science in the Quran. It has obvious errors. Allah states categorically that all mankind was created from a single pair, a man and a woman. Man now knows that is nonsense. How could Allah be so daft? But if you want to rehash silly twisting of old arabic words to mean what they never were intended to mean and call that science then go ahead, feel free to show the readers that the Science in the Quran crowd does not even have a clue what science is all about.

actually skeptic- you didnt ask for proof of the existence of god-

All reference their own books, canons, creeds or sacred writings as proof that theirs is the right way.

Muslims say "the Koran is the word of god" and point to the Koran as proof of that.

There is no external evidence, much less "proof" that any of these 3 are right or in any way more valid than any of the world's other myriad religions, or indeed more right than NO religion.

Stop quoting your holy books to support/validate/prove your belief systems. Give me independant empirical evidence that your viewpoint is more right than any other.

what you asked for was proof of the scientific provability fo the texts themselves-

if it were proven to your satisfaction that the qu'ran contains clear scientific knowledge of things that werent discernible scientifically until modern times,(and completely impossible to anticipate or know in 630ish AD)
would that be sufficient for you?

understand that i wont do research and present it- if it is not (at least) respected.

ive wasted far too much effort in that vein.

let me know.
peace

Zeenat et al,

Reality in synopsis form: (for "newbies only since the synopsis has been repeated many times)

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was probably a mythical character. If he was real, he was at best a combination of at least three men. 1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT. http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics. http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

3. Mohammed, an illiterate, womanizing, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic train bombers in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani koranics, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino koranics.

And who funds these acts of terror? The Islamic Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

4. Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy talking flying fictional thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

5. Hinduism (from an online Hindu site)

"Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centered and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’."

The caste/laborer system and cow worship are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism.

6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."

"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories (e.g. walking and talking at birth) arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life.

Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations, embellishments, lies, legends and myths surrounding the founders of said rules of life.

Mahmoud Elsayess,

Quran's prophet Isa is not jesus and Musa is not moses. The stories of Isa are different than the stories of the Bible. In the Bible Jesus dies on the cross. In the Quran, Isa does not die but is waiting somewhere (in heaven) and will return to work under Mahdi and fight the Dajjal at doomsday. With the confusion between Isa and Jesus, the muslims deny the christians and the jews to their own religion. Muslims claim that the christians and the jews have corrupted the true religion of God, which they claim is Islam.

So I am not sure what is that you want to imply by your short quiz. It certainly is not that the Quran respects the Jesus of the Bible or the Moses of the Torah, because it does not. Quran substitutes them with new prophets Isa and Musa and through them claims the right to deny any validity to the Bible and the Torah.

This is in reference to American Muslim Leaders: Past, Present and Future, by Dr. Patel

I take my hat off for Washington Post for giving Dr. Patel the opportunity to share a positive trend of the Muslim American youth.

This a quick quiz:

Can you match the numbers with these names?

( 136 , 69, 65, and 4)
Abraham
Moses
Jesus
Mohamed

These Prophets mentioned in the Koran, do you know which one was mentioned more than other Prophets?

You can find out by using our free of charge website that has a link on the prestigious Library of Congress.

Visit: http://www.readverse.com/

You can search either by Arabic or English.

Peace,
California, USA
Cell (714) 376-4862

Zeenat writes:

"It is historically documented that the prophet Muhammad had to flee Mecca because the polythiests plotted to kill him. That is how the Islamic calendar started. The word hijra means migration.
It marks the beginning of the Islamic Calendar."

Your notion of "historically documented" is obvious when you assert Abrahams existence to be well documented as well.

Did Muhammad live among the Meccans for over 10 years after claiming prophethood or not? He did not win many converts. He was abusing the Gods of the pagans and polytheists, was he not? What do you expect them to do? They complained and they told him to quit his nonsense. They did not kill him, did they? They did not behead him, did they? The muslims claim that his uncle protected him. His uncle was a pagan was he not? The Yathrib invited him because they thought they could use him. He did not flee out of fear but he went because he found more willing to listen to him than what he had in Mecca. Why don't you list the episodes of actual attacks on Muhammad by the pagans during his 10 years at Mecca? Let the people decide the level of persecution that Muhammad was facing. Then also tell them how he treated his opponents when he gained power in Yatrib.

Zeenat,

Well documented existence of the prophet Abraham? Do you understand the meaning of the word "proof"?

And because I state the obvious that Abraham exists only in the tales of the OT, and the muslims "bastardized" them by inventing his laying the stone of the Kaaba, you consider me a polytheist?

You should educate yourself more about who and when the bible was written. And even if one accepts the tales of the old jewish story tellers, can you produce any evidence other than the statement in the quran that Abraham laid the foundation stone of the Kaaba? How come there is absolutely no evidence even in the old tales that Abraham was ever any where near Mecca?

Try to distinguish between real and fictional, please.

A. Kafir:

You are impossible because you deny the well documented existence of prophet Abraham. Both the Old Testament and the New Testament mention Abraham. There are some differences in the line of descent but no denial of the existence of Abraham.

I suspected from the beginning that you are a polytheist. Your denial of the existence of Abraham confirms it.

Everything that does not fit your agenda, you call "the figment of imagination."

It is historically documented that the prophet Muhammad had to flee Mecca because the polythiests plotted to kill him. That is how the Islamic calendar started. The word hijra means migration.
It marks the beginning of the Islamic Calendar.

Zeenat,

Now you change subjects. Okay.

Abraham is fictional. There is evidence other than the tales woven by jewish story tellers and they did not put Abraham anywhere near Mecca. Pure figment of muslim imagination. Kaaba was a pagan temple from the start. So produce any, just one, piece of evidence other than the silly statement by the muslims themselves that Kaaba was built by Abraham. Without that evidence, you by your own words agree then Muhammad was the aggressor against the Pagans and polytheists.

Plotting to kill muhammad is again the feverish imagination of muhammad. He lives among them for over 10 years abusing and cursing their Gods and their way of life and they did not physically hurt him once. The worst incident the muslims state is that some innards were thrown on his back. But what does muhammad do, the moment he has power? He forces Sufiyan to convert at the point of a sword, and kills the other leaders and impales the severed heads of his opponents and taunts the severed head for three days? And this you consider peaceful?

A. Kafir and Ibrahim Mahfouz:

You have carefully avoided stating that the Kaaba was built by Abraham, the original prophet preaching monotheism. It was taken by force by polytheists who had 360 gods.

Prophet Muhammad was preaching monotheism and was initially supported by both the Christians and Jews. The polytheists plotted to kill Muhammad and he escaped to Medina. The people of Medina welcomed him and accepted Islam. The prophet was able to build an Army of 10,000 and conquered back Kaaba of Mecca.

He immediately declared total amnesty. Clearly, he was not the aggressor. The aggressors were the polytheists of that time.

When Jews saw that Islam was gaining strength they broke the treaty they had signed with Muslims.Wars ensued and the Jews were defeated.

Similar wars took place with the Christians of the time. Wars ensued and were also defeated. Those verses against the Jews and the Christians must be read in that context.

To Skeptic, religion is not only reason for wars.

From paleolithic times human populations have grown, migrated to differing environments and in the process have given birth to more than 3,000 different languages, cultures, and innumerable religions--resulting in the creation of competing identities.

Consider the racial, linguistic, class, caste, nationalistic, religious and sectarian identities that have given rise to conflicts. This has perpetuated deep rooted prejudices resulting in deplorable atrocities.

In India, the upper castes (Brahmins, Rajputs and Kshatriyas) that nag 240 million Dalits as untouchables and consider them to be polluted even if they come across their shadow.

Two years ago, thousands of Dalits (the untouchables) suffered protests and disrespect from Brahmins and other upper castes when the government implemented the quotas in government jobs and university admissions aimed at improving Dalit representation in the Indian social profile.

In short, humans have numerous identities and that has been the problem. Do you know the soltion to identity based conflicts?

Skeptic in Reston:
You said:"Crusades in one century and Jihad in the second century". I would like to clarify that the Crusade Wars were a direct result of an earler Jihad; where nomads from Arabia had in the 7th Century overran the whole Middle East and North Africa and subjugated their entire population. The way the invaders treated the native population could b easily surmised from the "Omar Pact" that I posted earlier in this blog. The Crusaders did not come to relieve the oppression of their coreligionist,as they should have done, but to ensure a free passage to their pilgrims, and only after the Fatimide Caliph of Egypt , al Hakim, burned down the holiest site in all Christendom; the Church ofthe Holy Sepulchre.
Mr. Kafir; the quranic verse "No compulsion in religion" was abrogated by many others that incite abut the killing of the "Unbelievers" such as the infamous 9:29 "Fight those who believe not.....

Zeenat writes: "Islam specifically prohibits killing of any innocent human."

That is not correct. The catch is of course who determines whether a human is innocent or not. Muhammad killed thousands, enslaved thousands of women and children, beheaded many all because they did not want to accept Islam. By Quranic definition anyone who rejects Allah and his Messenger Muhammad is no longer innocent.

The injunction of not killing of a single individual stated by muslims is really a statement to the jews (Mishnah) as stated in the Quran

005.032
YUSUFALI: On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.

But then the Quran adds the Islamic wrinkle to it by Allah commanding in the next verse:

005.033
YUSUFALI: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

And what is meant by "who wage war against Allah and His Messenger" has meant through Islamic history as those who reject Islam and have the gall to speak their mind. Questioning Islam or the Quran amongst the muslims is equivalent to waging war against Allah!!!

Zeenat quotes the two most often used misquoted Quranic quotes by muslims to demonstrate "Islam means peace": "The Koran says "To you your faith, to me mine" In another place it says, "There is no compulsion in religion".

The first one "To you your faith and to me mine" is for from the Surah Kafiroon. Maududi and other Islamic Scholars like ibn Kathir, ibn Abbas and others make it perfectly clear that this is not a message of tolerance at all but in Maududi's words:
"If the Surah is read with this background in mind, one finds that it was not revealed to preach religious tolerance as some people of today seem to think, but it was revealed in order to exonerate the Muslims from the disbelievers religion, their rites of worship, and their gods, and to express their total disgust and unconcern with them and to tell them that Islam and kufr (unbelief) had nothing in common and there was no possibility of their being combined and mixed into one entity. Although it was addressed in the beginning to the disbelieving Quraish in response to their proposals of compromise, yet it is not confined to them only, but having made it a part of the Quran, Allah gave the Muslims the eternal teaching that they should exonerate themselves by word and deed from the creed of kufr wherever and in whatever form it be, and should declare without any reservation that they cannot make any compromise with the disbelievers in the matter of Faith."
If anything this is a way of saying "filthy kafirs" by the muslims. Muhammad said it to the Quraish when he was weak and could not use the sword against them at the time.

The second one "no compulsion in religion" is also a distortion of what it actually stands for in Islam. The simplest way to see the lie is to see that apostasy in Islam carries the death penalty. So what the muslims understand by compulsion is obviously different from what the rest of humanity of understands. A muslim is not free to renounce Islam but is given three days to change his or her mind, and if not then death is what is prescribed. And then the muslims tell you "no compulsion" in Islam with a straight face. This saying really means that no one can really prevent a non-muslim from converting to Islam, and if anyone does then the Muslims can take that to be a sign of aggression and a cause for jihad.

Please read more for yourself to find out how the quotes by Zeenat are explained by Muslim Scholars to other muslims, and not the lies told to the kafirs.

Zeenat...

ohhhh, and when you create a WE there is always a THEM...

Thus the basis for all of the religious strife and conflict that has caused wars, violence and death throughout history. Crusades, and the Inquisition one century and Jihad the next. The world may survive communism and capitalism but it just may not survive religion.

>>> So, Skeptic, don't look for empirical evidence for the existence of God. God exists for the believers. I am one of the believers. <<<

Zeenat,

I know I won't get any emprical evidence because none exists. Its a catch-22. Since there is no empirical evidence there are possible scenarios:

1. There is no god, thus his existence cannot be proven, or for that matter, disproven.

2. There is a god who wants people to believe based on faith, thus he will not prove his existence. To prove himself would violate the concept of faith.

Both work out to the same result. NO PROOF. Works right into the plan...

Ro: Skeptic in Reston:

Religion is not based on empirical evidence. It is based on faith.

Truth in science is not absolute because scientific explanations are constantly challenged by new observational evidence. Truth in religion, although regarded as absolute by believers, is based on faith and the faith gets shaken when scientists come up with an answer not anticipated by some believers.

Such is the case with evolution.

Religion performs important functions in human societies. It gives them a code of conduct which normally means adhering to the standards set up by societies.

It supposedly binds the believers together and creates a "we feeling." Most religions claim to give message of universality.

Religion often loses its original meaning and often gets mixed up with cultural traditions. Such is the case with the Taliban of Afghanistan. They have distorted Islam and reflect a lack of knowledge of their faith. The treatment of women, the destruction of statutes of Buddha are just two examples of their distortion of Islam. The Koran says "To you your faith, to me mine" In another place it says, "There is no compulsion in religion".

They (Afghans) also have a tradition called "Karo Kari" in which they punish the girl if she is raped. It is un-Islamic.

In North Africa the tradition of female circumcision has nothing to do with Islam. It is not mentioned in any holy books and is confined to North Africa.

The purpose of religion is to spiritually connect with God. Its aim is to create peace and harmony. Islam specifically prohibits killing of any innocent human. But it does give the right of self defense.

So, Skeptic, don't look for empirical evidence for the existence of God. God exists for the believers. I am one of the believers.

There are many good Christians, Jews and Hindus. They promote interfaith dialog and understanding. Most Muslims have great respect for former President Jimmy Carter. HE IS A TRUE CHRISTIAN>

I am perplexed that otherwise intelligent human beings continue to believe in any given religion. All reference their own books, canons, creeds or sacred writings as proof that theirs is the right way.

Muslims say "the Koran is the word of god" and point to the Koran as proof of that.

Christians say that "Jesus is the son of god and died (and rose) for mankind's sins" and point to the new testament as proof of that.

Jews say "Yahweh, the god of Abraham, is the one god" and point to the Torah as proof.

There is no external evidence, much less "proof" that any of these 3 are right or in any way more valid than any of the world's other myriad religions, or indeed more right than NO religion.

Stop quoting your holy books to support/validate/prove your belief systems. Give me independant empirical evidence that your viewpoint is more right than any other. Believe if you must, but leave the rest of us who neither care to or choose not to believe the way you want us to.

To Zeenat:
Below are but few verses from the Quran that calls for the"respect?" for the people of the Book
and whoever refuses to believe in the prophethood of Muhammad.
1: 6-7. Show us the straight way
The way of those on whom
Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace,
Those whose (portion)
Is not wrath
And who got astray

(Ibn Katheer defines the” ones who went astray as the Christians, and those whose portion is not wrath as the Jews)

98:6 Those who reject (Truth)
Among the people of the Book
And among the Polytheists.
Will be in hell-fire,
To dwell therein (for aye).
They are the worst
Of creatures.

5:63 Say; O People of the Book!
“Shall I point out
To you something much worse
Than this, (as judged)
By the treatment it received
From God? Those who
Incurred the curse of God
And His wrath, those of whom some
He transformed into apes and swine

9: 28 O ye who believe! Truly
The Polytheists are unclean;
So let them not,
After this year of theirs,
Approach the Sacred Mosque

62:5 The similitude of those
Who were charged
With the (obligations
Of the) Mosaic Law
But who subsequently failed
Those (obligations),
That of a donkey
Which carries huge tomes
(But understands them not).

7:176
If it had been Our Will,
We should have elevated him
With Our signs; but he
Inclined to the earth
And followed his own vain desires
His similitude is that
Of a dog; if you attack
Him, he lolls out his tongue.
That is the similitude
Of those who reject Our signs;
So relate the story;
Perchance they may reflect

Thomas Baum:

I don't know if the Bible is banned in any country or not. But if it is it would be the wrong thing to do.

Now, I have a few questions for you:

1- How did Jesus die for my sins, when I was not even born during his time?
2- If God is omnipresent and omnipotent, why did He come to earth as his own son?
3- How can the son of God and God be the same?
4- Being father and son is a genetic relationship?
Does God have the same genes as humans?
5- What happened to personal responsibility for committing sins, if someone already died for my sins?

6- And why did Jesus die for the billions of people yet to be born?

What you do not understand is that God is not anthropomorhic. He was neither born out of anyone nor did He physically reproduce anyone.

He is the creator of everything and has created a universe which is orderly and not chaotic.
When there was nothing, God was there and when there will be nothing He will still be there.

TO ZEENAT AND THE REST OF HUMANITY:

You wrote, "The Koran tells Muslims to respect people of the book."

I would like to ask a simple question, how come in some countries with sharia law, "The Book", is not only outlawed but can be a Capital Offense to even have it?

Jesus, Who is God-Incarnate and very plainly and forthrightly Proclaimed that message, said to His apostles, Love your enemies, He did not send them to kill and/or subdue their enemies with worldly force and to set up a theocracy.

Jesus also said very plainly and to the point, "My Kingdom is not of this world."

Even though what Jesus lived and died for and taught has been twisted by some that have claimed and still do claim to speak for Him, that does not change what He actually did and said.

Jesus sent His followers to the ends of the earth, to everyone.

Jesus did not differentiate between people of the book and people not of the book because God, the Trinity of Pure Love, created everyone and every human being, past, present and to come, are His People.

The koran is taking the Hebrew scriptures, which I call the Old Testament, and the New Testament and totally changing them, could that be another reason why THE BOOK is outlawed by sharia law?

To put it in simple language, the god of islam is not God but is satan.

The angel that came to Mohammed was not Gabriel but satan, whom Jesus told us was a liar and a thief, which Jesus told us, is satan's very nature.

I do not hold it against Mohammed that He was deceived by satan, since satan can come across as mister nice guy but he sure isn't.

I have met God and God is a Trinity, a Trinity of Pure Love, and God has a Plan and God, the Trinity has had That Plan since before creation.

I have also met satan and besides being a liar and a thief, he is also a deceiver and an accuser and I might also add a loser.

As I have said on previous posts, God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof.

As it says in the bible, "True Religion is taking care of widows and orphans", if you notice it doesn't even mention God.

As I have also posted previously, it is important what you do and why you do it and what you know and this ties right in to the above statement and the next statement.

Jesus when asked said, "Love the Lord thy God completely, and Love your fellow human beings", when Jesus said, "I did not come to abolish the Law but to fulfill the Law", He was serious and the Law is God Himself, Pure Love, and His Plan for ALL OF HIS CREATION.

Remember God wins, satan loses, a tie is unacceptable.

Jesus said to Peter the apostle, "Simon, thou art Peter and upon this rock, I will build MY CHURCH and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it."

We are all called to be rocks in the Heavenly Jerusalem not just Peter and it is Jesus's Church not Peter's and the gates of the netherworld, hell and death, will not prevail.

As I have said, Total Victory, no tie.

See you all in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

The day a "moderate" muslim turns in another muslim for building an bomb in their basement to put on a bus is the day I will believe that moderate muslims are not the enemy of America and the non-islamic world. Their silence in the face of the radicals who serve as the public face of their religion implies tacit approval. Come on, you want us to believe Islam is peaceful? How can we when the leaders of your religion preach hate and the conversion or death of all who don't submit to your particular god?

If they want to be taken seriously and as a positive force, Muslim-American religious leaders need to retake control of their religion and admit that other people have the right to believe or not believe as they see fit.

Frankly I wish muslims and christians and all of the other monotheistic religionists would stop worrying about my soul so much. Its almost like its a competition. The religion with the most souls at the end of time wins and goes on to the afterlife of their choice. GO TEAM!

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

Well the "pending approval" problem could be due to this site's guardian pretty wingie thingie who does not work the "grave yard shift".

Or it could be simply that you added more than two website addresses to your commentary. The system generates the "pending approval" message automatically when you do this.

BTW, how goes your crossover "gabrielizing" Christian/Islamic problem?????

i wouldnt worry unduly over that k-
i dont think its a personal thing at all
its happened to me countless times

since we both seem to be night owls- my theory is that it seems to happen late at night

soja said the same thing earlier, so maybe its just this page

Mr. Patel,

I submitted a post replying to Faithful Muslim and Victoria four days ago. I got a note saying that my post was pending approval from the blogger. It has not been posted yet. May I know the reason why my comments have been withheld?

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

Let us start with the belief/theology/philosophy of "pretty wingy things" in both religions. You accepted Gabriel's communiques during your early days with Christianity. You extended that by swallowing/quoting the same "angelic" mumbo jumbo when you joined Islam i.e. break this superstitious link and you will break both ties thereby allowing you to finally enter into the World of Reality.

most appreciated saif-

as ive challenged before many times without response lib-
please point out the places where there is christian philosophy inspiring my comments-
it is your misunderstadning of islam

not mine

Hmmm, Victoria's religion is more a blend of Islam and Christianity. She takes the best of both and conveniently forgets the flaws in each.

And thank you Victoria as always providing a cool headed and eloquent explanation of Islam and Muslims.

I as well as countless people are very thankful for you and all the tireless work you do in explaining our great faith.

Salaam and Eid Mubarak!

Excellent Article.

As an American Muslim raised in New Jersey myself, I can completely and whole heartedly attest to the varying competition of tradition and identity.

And I believe without a doubt that my religion above all, Islam, made me the caring humanist who wants to serve the poor in cities such as Newark (as a pre-Dental student).

Islam is much maligned by the pro-Israel neoconservatives and the radical Christians esp. the Southern Evangelicals in the south. Some don't understand it, others are made to be afraid of it like the PR Murdoch owned media such as NYPost and FoxNews...

However after the squabble is done and beneath all the well crafted smears and fears akin to the great McCarthyite fear of "communists," the good American people will stand and overcome the constant industry of anti-Muslim hatred from Malkin to Robert Spencer to other right-wing neocon shills that bask in demonizing Muslims to justify more bloodshed, ie in Iran.

And as a Ron Paul supporter, I can see a new change evolving and coming. Out with the neocons and war against innocent Iraqi, Afghani, Lebanese Muslims for Israel and in with safety, security, freedom, and prosperity for all and America above all.

Thank you.

Anon,

You noted:

"Quoting a statement in NT that said the jews said "is n't this the son of Mary and Joseph?" is a proof that Joseph is Jesus' procreator, and in other place where the Jews exclaimed something like "Is n't this the guy from Galilee?" is a proof that Jesus was not born in Bethlehem is beyond ludricous.
I use this opportunity to wish everyone, but you, a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. "

Hmmm, so non-Christian of you to not wish me a Merry X-mas!!!!

For added information on the quotes from your unerring bible, i.e. (1) GThom. 31 & P. Oxy. 1.31
(2) Mark 6:1-6a = Matt 13:53-58
(3) Luke 4:16-24
(4) John 4:44,

see http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/022_Prophets_Own_Country

Actually, a lot of what is in these passages passes the attestation and stratum analyses of many NT exegetes i.e. your quotes are some of the few passages in the NT that actually pertain to the historical Jesus. And confirms the other passages that there was no virgin birth and no star of Bethlehem.

Terra:
If posting those U tubes on Dr. Hathut was meant to demonise him, it did not work with people like me who know what is really happening in the occupied lands of Palestine. This man did not say a thing that people who are living there do not agree with; both Palestinians as well as Israelis.

Hallozcel:

In response: Today's headline

JERUSALEM - Israeli military prosecutors have decided not to take any legal action over Israel's use of cluster bombs during last year's war in Lebanon, the army said Monday, closing an investigation into a practice that has drawn heavy criticism from the U.N. and international human rights groups.

JUDGE, JURY, AND PROSECUTOR, all at the same time!

listen to these utubes to get a clear understanding of the mission of "people like maher hathout"

Maher Hathout, MPAC, Jerusalem Day Rally Wash DC - 10/28/00

http://youtube.com/watch?v=n6_LwJ4Dd_o

Dr. Maher Hathout responds to "Israeli butchers" quote

http://youtube.com/watch?v=wDX5saQygT0

"The great American poet William Carlos Williams even wrote, “The pure products of America / go crazy.”"

Once again Eboo Patel uses a quick wordbite to forward his shallow thought. Meaningless.

Eboo..your boat has a hole in it, your house is made of twigs and straw, and that dog won't hunt.

Next time: try harder to read deeper, find meaning, and make sense. What you think you see in America may be something entirely new and foreign to you.

"They saw birds with rusty breasts and called them robins. Thus, from the start, an America of which the could have had no inkling drove the first settlers upon their past. They retreated for warmth and reassurance to something previously familiar. But at a cost. For what they saw were not robins. They were thrushes only vaguely resembling the rosy, daintier English Bird. Larger, stronger, and in the evening wilder, lovelier song, actually here was something the newcomers had never in their lives before encountered." (WCW)

Zeenat,

You say *Little knowledge is a dangerous thing*.Yes,you are right.

Koran also tells *take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends* 5.51.
How respect is this ?
Besides,how should we interpret 9.28 and 2.161(such as many others) ?

lib:
Quoting a statement in NT that said the jews said "is n't this the son of Mary and Joseph?" is a proof that Joseph is Jesus' procreator, and in other place where the Jews exclaimed something like "Is n't this the guy from Galilee?" is a proof that Jesus was not born in Bethlehem is beyond ludricous.
I use this opportunity to wish everyone, but you, a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

Dear Mr Patel

This is the third time I am trying to post on your thread.I'm wondering why the messages don't appear.

Happy Eid Mubarak and a Happy New Year 2008!

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

"The biggest threat to HUMANITY and world peace today are the evangelical Christians and the NEOCONS. The former are waiting for the Armageddon, the return of Christ, convert all Jews and non-Christians to Christianity. And if they don't convert then kill them."

The Evangelical Christians are waiting for God and the return of Christ, the Taliban and the Muslim extremists are doing Allah's work here and now, they are taking things into their own hands, so the bigger problem would be the Muslims.

Ibrahim Mahfouz, you have described Islams problems in a single post wonderfully where you point out that Muslims can take from the quran whatever they want and act upon it. Those predisposed to peace and kindness can quote all they want to from the hadith and koran and be good Muslims, the warriors can equally site all the war suras and go on a war path and be justified. The problem therefore lies in the Muslims to clearly define where and when to use their scripture.

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

You noted: "To begin, let us do a sample comparison of the teachings of the Holy Books of Almighty God. "

Then, wow, you move into the copy and paste mode to prove your point. What you have done is actually quoted sayings of the ancients that were copied by the NT and koran scribes or embellishments invented by said scribes to make Jesus and Mo look like god or commuicators with said god ("pwtfft"s : (remember both were illiterate).

So lets copy and paste some items from OT and NT exegetes:

As per many NT exegetes to include Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists, there is "No Historic Reason for the Christmas Season".

There was no Virgin birth. http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/026_Jesus_Virginally_Conceived

And there was no Star of Bethlem. http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/369_Star_of_Revelation

"Gerd Lüdemann
Commenting on the infancy narratives overall, Luedemann [Jesus, 124-29] concludes that Luke and Matthew represent "two equally unhistorical narratives." He cites the occurrence of a miraculous heavenly sign at key points in the life of Mithridates VI in a history written by Justinus (active in the reign of Augustus, 2 BCE to 14 CE). "

Also, you quoted the following. Had you "worked outside the box", you would have found the following conclusions from attestation and stratum analyses:

Matthew 5: 17 not said by the historical Jesus- see the above references #392

Matthew 7: 21 not said by the historical Jesus, see the above references #111

Mark 1: 35 not said by the historical Jesus, see the above references #218

Luke 3: 36 not said by the historical Jesus, see the above references #368

And citing John's gospel is akin to citing a Jesus propaganda machine as most contemporary exegetes have noted if you bother to read something other the koran and NT.

John 3:17 see # 350, John 5: 24 see #352, John 11:4 see # 130, John 11:27 see # 130, John 20:31 see #364

Bottom line for you Victoria: You escaped your Breeding, Birth and Brainwashing in Christianity only to be Brainwashed by Islam so we again offer a free program to escape your current Islamic "cult-ure".

Using "The 77 Branches of Islamic "faith" a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi as a starting point. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true "faith" (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.

"1. Belief in Allah"

"aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc." should be added to your cleansing neurons.

"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."

Evolution and the Big Bang or the "Gib Gnab" (when the universe starts to recycle) are more plausible and the "akas" for Allah should be included if you continue to be a "creationist".

"3. To believe in the existence of angels."

A major item for neuron cleansing. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ugly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented.

"4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."

Another major item to delete. There are no books written in the spirit state of Heaven (if there is one) just as there are no angels/"pwtfft"s to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.

Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the uneducated masses in line. Today we call them fortune tellers.

Prophecies are also invalidated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.

"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone."

Mohammed spent thirty days fasting in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a neuron deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic violence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallucinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.

Accept these five "cleansers" and we guarantee a complete recovery from your orthodox Islamic "cult-ure"!!!!

Ibrahim Mahfouz!

Little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Someone here posted earlier that the holy Koran is a collection of messages (revelations)over 22 years.

So when the Koran says "don't drink". This message came much later than the earlier message. We (America) have several amendments to our constitution and they simply demonstrate the need for change.

The messages of fighting the enemy came early when early Muslims werer struggling to survive in battle conditions. When Muslims conquered Mecca, the prophet declared total amnesty.

The Koran tells Muslims to respect people of the book.

RE:Jesus of Christianity and Islam
The Sunna, which is the Quran and Hadith are
like a supermarket; you find in them whatever food you desire. You can find material that proves almost anything you wish to prove. This is because over 69% of the Quran Suras contain revisions(abrogation) and outright contradictions. Example about revision is the verses dealing with the drinking of liquor. At one time it says don’t pray while drunk then later another verse say emphatically “Don’t drink“. An example about contradiction is one verse that states” No compulsion in religion” and a later verse says “Fight those who do not believe in Allah and his Prophet…). I can use the Quran and Hadith to prove that Jesus is God. Born of a virgin with no human father who raised the dead and who never died and who will come back to be the Judge on Judgment day is a God. Off course there are other verses in the Quran that describe Jesus as a mere prophet, no better than say Amos, Obadiah, Noah, Ishmael etc.
There is a verse in the Koran that says if the Koran has any contradiction it could NOT be from Allah. I agree. Well it has contradictions therefore it is not from Allah and so we could not use it as a reference about matters that deals with Jesus (Or anything else). Otherwise we will be working according to the principle RI = RO( Rubbish in leads to rubbish out). Therefore all those fancy quotes about Allah said this and Allah said that in the Koran should be eliminated from any objective discourse.
Besides what is the nature of Jesus has to do with our discussion? Or is this FAITH board a pulpit to proselyte for Islam with Mr. Patel as the Chief Imam and Victoria is his mouthpiece?; pasting very long babblings from Wahabi preachers, who among other things are calling for the destruction of the Big Satan, meaning America? I do not blame those above mentioned for crossing the line but blame the Washington Post for not enforcing the proper guidelines for a constructive dialogue.

The biggest threat to HUMANITY and world peace today are the evangelical Christians and the NEOCONS. The former are waiting for the Armageddon, the return of Christ, convert all Jews and non-Christians to Christianity. And if they don't convert then kill them.

Muslims also love and revere Jesus as one of God’s greatest messengers to humankind. The Quran confirms the virgin birth of Jesus (3:47), and shows him speaking from the cradle and, with God’s permission, curing lepers and the blind (5:110).

Prophet Muhammed said: “Both in this world and in the hereafter, I am the nearest of all people to Jesus, the son of Mary. The prophets are paternal brothers, their mothers are different, but their religion is one.”

Muslims, Christians and Jews are in desperate need of a unifying force of interfaith understanding. That force is the message of love, peace, and forgiveness taught by Jesus. All of us must stand ready to honor the spirit of tolerance by building bridges of interfaith and intercultural understanding and challenging those who who are interested in bigotry against Muslims.

actually halozee these were concentrated studies conducted when i was an active christian with the intention of searching for the truth using my own reasoning and intelligence instead of blindly accepting what a council in turkey told me to think 1600 years ago-

i came to my own conclusions completely without any knowledge of islam whatsoever-

if you actually read and study the bible, and the scholars who study it- there is no other conclusion to come to-

the post was to answer christians as to what muslims believe about chrisitanity to dispel ignorance-

The interpretation and avaluation of Christianity according to islam (!)(?) Which logic ??

2500 years later after Abraham,they say *No,he was not Isaac,but he was Ismael*
600 years later after Jesus,they say *No,Jesus was not him the christians know*

First of all,you(islam) learn what Trinity is.It is not Father,Son and Mary.
First of all,you(islam) learn that Azar was Abraham's servent not his dad.

personally, from my own studies- i found more than a hundred places in the gospels (matthew, luke, mark & john) where Jesus(pbuh) makes disitinctions between his own selfhood and that of the god.

i know cut and pastes are long- and i usually dont recommend them- but if people have genuine questions (ill have suspicion for the good in them) the they will definitely find answers they cannot reason away-

if they have intentions to just prove their "way" is better than islam-

theyll ignore this, gain nothing, and just talk talk about their own superiority or just defame islam when that fails.

there arent many places to speak about islam on these boards - so it is more than appropriate to speak about it here-

- Yusuf Estes

Jesus Of Christianity & Islam
Comparing Ideas - Sharing Knowledge

Does the belief in Jesus, peace be upon him, as a ‘son of God’ really make sense?

What exactly does 'son of God' mean?

Can true salvation from God, be the punishment of someone else who is innocent from any of these crimes, to be punished as though he were guilty?

Does God need someone to suffer severe punishment, even though they are trying, day after day.

Did Jesus, peace be upon him, tell the people to take him as a god, or to worship him?

Let us find the answer to these and other important questions about the nature of Jesus of Christianity and Islam.

"Look to the Books"

To begin, let us do a sample comparison of the teachings of the Holy Books of Almighty God.

QURAN OF ISLAM

Surah 39:53 “Say: ‘Oh my servants who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah forgives all sins, for he is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful’.”

Also: Surah 4:110
“If anyone does evil or wrongs his own soul but afterwards seeks Allah’s forgiveness, he will find Allah Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.”

Surah 2:21
“O you people! Adore your Guardian lord, who created you and those who came before you that you may become righteous.”

Surah 58:22
“You will not find any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day, loving those who resist Allah and His Messenger, even though they were their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred. For such He has written faith in their hearts and strengthened them with a spirit from Himself. And He will admit them to Gardens beneath which rivers flow, to well therein (forever). Allah will be well pleased with them, and they with Him. They are the Party of Allah. Truly it is the Party of Allah that will achieve Felicity.”

New Testament of BIBLE

Mark 6:10
“Why do you call me good?” answered Jesus, “No-one is good but God alone!”

Matthew 5:17
“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them, but rather to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until Heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of the pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until all things are accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever keeps the commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.”

Matthew 7:21
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the Will of the Father who is in Heaven. Many will say to me on the day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!”

Some leaders claimed, “This probably refers to the Mormons or somebody else. Don’t worry about it.”

Mark 1:35
Gabriel says Jesus will be “called the son of God” and he would be “given the Throne of David” to “rule the House of Jacob forever.”

Luke 3:36
“Enos was the son of Seth, and Seth was the son of Adam, and Adam was the son of God.”

Note: Adam, not Jesus, is listed in this genealogy of Jesus as the son of God, not Jesus.

Later on, the priests are asking Jesus, peace be upon him, if he claims to be the son of God. He tells them in fact, it is they who are making this claim.

“You say that I am.”

Gospel of John contains the greatest number of references to “son of God.”
Jesus, speaking in the third person talked about the “Son of God” in John 3:17

John 5:24
John 11:4
John 11:27

Martha, one of the followers, calls Jesus, peace be upon him, “The Messiah, the Son of God”
John 20:31 he is called “The Messiah, the Son of God.”

But no verse makes the exact statement “Jesus is the Son of God and as such he is divine or God.”

QURAN 4:171
“O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah anything but the truth. Christ Jesus, the son of Mary was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not “Trinity”: desist: It will be better for you: For Allah is One God: Glory be to Him: (Far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.”

Notice in the Bible, the frequent link between the position of Jesus, peace be upon him, as the Messiah and the ‘son-ship.’

The term ‘son of god’ can not, in itself, be considered enough to declare anything unique about Jesus, peace be upon him, as this term is used for many people throughout the Old and the New Testament. See above: Luke 3:38

Also, in Isaiah 62:8
refers to the entire house of Israel as being, ‘Sons of God’.

Romans 8:14 Paul tells us about those who are led by the spirit:
“because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.”

The word “Messiah” is one that more particularly seems to represent the station of the person predicted to appear and lead the people to the victory over this world.

Oxford Companion of the Bible states Jews prior to Jesus, peace be upon him, hoped for a prophesied ruler, reigning with everlasting justice, peace and security for the “Sons of Israel.”

BIBLE
Isaiah 11:1-5
“A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit. The spirit of the Lord will be on him - the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of Knowledge and of the fear of the Lord - and he will delight in the fear of the Lord.”

Jeremiah 33:14-20
“The days are coming, declares the Lord, ‘When I will fulfill the gracious promise I made to the house of Israel and to the house of Judah. In those days and at that time I will make a righteous Branch sprout from David’s line; he will do what is just and right in the land. In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will live in safety. This is the name by which it will be called: The Lord Our Righteousness.” For this is what the Lord says: ‘David will never fail to have a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel, nor will the priests, who are Levites, ever fail to have a man to stand before me continually to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offering and to present sacrifices.”

Ezekiel 37:24-28:
“My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. The will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children’s children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever. I will make a covenant of peace with them, it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. Then the nations will know that I the Lord make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.”

Genesis 49:10
“The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the rules staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs and the obedience of the nations is his.”

Numbers 24:17
“I see him, but not now; I behold him, but not near. A star will come out of Jacob; a scepter will rise out of Israel. He will crush the foreheads of Moab, the skulls of all the sons of Sheth. Edom will be conquered; Seir, his enemy, will conquered, but Israel will grow strong. A ruler will come out of Jacob and destroy the survivors of the city.”

God Incarnate? NOT HERE

BIBLE
2 Samuel 7:12-15 Nathan the prophet (son of Solomon)
“The Lord declares to you that the Lord Himself will establish a house for you: When your days are over and you rest with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, who will come from your own body, and I will establish his kingdom. He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be his father and he will be my son. (New Testament book of Hebrews stops here)
Samuel continues:
“When he does wrong, I will punish him with the rod of men, with floggings inflicted by men. But my love will never be taken away from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you.”

Hebrews 1:5
“You are my Son; today I have begotten you.”

Does this support the case the doctrine that Jesus, peace be upon him, is the ‘begotten Son of God?”

Old Testament BIBLE
Psalms 2:7 David is stating what God has proclaimed regarding David’s relationship to God
“I will proclaim the decree of the Lord: he said to me, ‘you are my Son; this day have I begotten you.”

Note: the New International Version says the verse could be translated either as “become your Father” or as “begotten you” into English or Greek.

New Testament BIBLE
Mark 1:35
“He will be called the Son of God.”

Note: This does not state he “is” the son, but rather, he will be “called” the son of God.

Or was he the “one anointed to preach Good News to the poor.” prophesied by Isaiah, and the Messiah proclaimed by Gabriel, the followers of Jesus, peace be upon him, Jesus, himself and the remained of the New Testament, he evidently would not be God.

New Testament BIBLE
John 8:58
“I tell you the truth’, Jesus answered, ‘before Abraham was, I am!’”

“I am” is the term used to identify God to Moses, peace be upon him.

New Testament BIBLE
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten son, that whoever believed in him should not perish but have everlasting life.”

This does not actually define Jesus, peace be upon him, as God, or as the Messiah or as a Prophet.

Note: This verse was actually modified by Jerome in the 4th century.

ARIUS (Early history of the Church) a popular leader from Alexandria, Egypt.
He argued, Jesus, peace be upon him, was created and not ‘begotten.’
He was charged with heresy and his followers were horribly oppressed by the Church.

After the matter was ‘decided’ and ‘confirmed’ by the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D. and in an effort to consolidate both beliefs, Jerome altered the original version of the Gospel of John 3:16 by changing the word ‘monogenes’ (unique) and substituted the word ‘ingenious’; meaning ‘only begotten.’

What other ‘interpretations’ did the early Church Fathers invent to satisfy their claims of the divinity of Jesus, peace be upon him?

Good question.

New Testament BIBLE
John 10:38 “But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may learn and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”

John 14:10 “Don’t you know that I am in the Father and that the Father is in me? The words that I say to you are not my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me who is doing this work.”

But further reading in the very same chapter:
John 14:20 “On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.”

So how does he live in his disciples and how do they live in him? And if so, are they also, sons of God or Gods?

Another good question.

1st John 2:5-6 (This is an epistle [letter] written by another “John,” not John the Gospel er nor John the Baptist)
“But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in Him. Whoever claims to live in Him must walk as Jesus did.”

Note: This indicates, living ‘in God’ means, ‘Obeying God’s commandments and following the Way of Jesus, peace be upon him.’

Twice in the New Testament, Jesus, peace be upon him, tells his followers how to pray saying, “When you pray, say this…”
And the words are very clear, ‘God’s Will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.”

BIBLE
John 17:22-23
“I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one; I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.”

The word used throughout chapter 10 and 17, for unity or one was the same, ‘heis’ meaning the number one. There is another word ‘hen’ which means a unity of essence. However, ‘hen’ is nowhere to be found in these chapters.

Note: Conclusion is this is a prayer from Jesus, peace be upon him, to God that all of his followers would have the same relationship that he (Jesus) had.

Understanding the word ‘one’ meanings understanding the way in which it is being used. For example a man and a woman become ‘one’ when they marry; someone might say, ‘One hopes for success’ or ‘We are one in agreement.’

Jesus, peace be upon him, is supposed to have said, “If you have seen me, you have seen the Father.” In the very part of the Bible we find the verse wherein Jesus, peace be upon him, tells his followers, if they accepted a little child, then they also accepted Jesus, peace be upon him. Naturally, he did not mean the child was God or that he was a child.

Christians are taught early in life, by doing good deeds and service for others, they are in fact allowing others to see Jesus in them.

Why do we hold so tight to doctrines, even after realizing the incorrectness and false teachings?

Yet another good question.

The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus, peace be upon him, is a man, born of a woman without any father, strengthened by a Spirit from God (Gabriel), sent by God to teach the Children of Israel the true meaning of belief and proper actions (following the commandments) that God would accept from them and as such, their ‘road to salvation.’

One more time:
BIBLE
John 1:1
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God at the beginning.”

Jesus, peace be upon him, was the very “Word of God.”

QURAN
Surah 4:171
“O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah anything but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) A Messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not ‘trinity’: desist.

It is difficult for us to admit that we have been deceived for so many years by some many people, some of them very near and dear to us. The truth is, ‘Someone has been lying to us’ - on purpose.

It is also difficult to consider the consequences of loosing faith in the doctrine of the Church, out of fear of loosing faith in God altogether.

But there is wonderful hope, Grace, Mercy and Salvation for those who come to the correct belief and obey the commandments.

Wisdom or Word?

Oxford Companion to the Bible
The words “wisdom” and “word” were synonymous (exactly the same words) in Jewish thought at the time of Jesus.

Old Testament BIBLE
Proverbs 8:22-30
“The lord brought me forth at the beginning of his work before his deeds of old; I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning before the world began. When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth. Then I was the craftsman at his side.”

Proverbs 3:19
“By Wisdom the Lord laid the earth’s foundations, by understanding he set the heavens in place; by his knowledge the deeps were divided, and the clouds let drop the dew.”

APOCRYPHA (hidden books of the Bible)
Wisdom 1 and Wisdom II
Sirach (also called: “Ecclesiasticus”) written by Jesus ben Sira, a devout Jew of Jerusalem, 200 years before Christ.
These texts were a part of the Bible until the time of the Calvinists and the Protestant Reformation (hence the word - protest).

Scrolls found at Wadi Qumran and Masada confirm these were always a part of the ancient version of the Bible, but obviously not something Protestants wanted anything to do with.

Wisdom states in Sirach 24:1-12
“Wisdom praises herself, and tells of her glory in the midst of her people. In the assembly of the Most High she opens her mouth, and in the presence of his hosts she tells of her glory: ‘I came forth from the mouth of the Most High and covered the earth like a mist. I dwelt in the highest heavens, and my throne was in a pillar of a cloud. Alone I compassed the vault of heaven and traversed the depths of the abyss. Over waves of the sea, over all the earth, and over every people and nation I have held sway. Among all these I sought a resting place; in whose territory should I abide? Then the Creator of all things gave me a command, and my Creator chose the place for my tent. He said, ‘Make your dwelling in Jacob, and in Israel, receive your inheritance.’ Before the ages, in the beginning he created me, and for all the ages I shall not cease to be. In the holy tent I ministered before him, and so I was established in Zion. Thus in the beloved city he gave me a resting place, and in Jerusalem was my domain. I took root in an honored people, in the portion of the Lord his heritage.

Wisdom of Solomon 7:25-27
“For she is a breath of the power of God, and a pure emanation of the glory of the Almighty; therefore nothing evil gains entrance into her. For she is a reflection of eternal light, a spotless mirror of the working of God, and an image of His goodness. Although she is but one, she can do all things, and while remaining in herself, she renews all things; in every generation she passes into holy souls and makes them friends of God, and prophets.”

Did the beginning of the Gospel of John indicate John believed the Spirit was sent by God to Jesus, peace be upon him, that it was the Spirit of Wisdom, Spirit of Prophecy, sent to all the prophets, with the same commandments and wisdom?

Could the Spirit of Wisdom be with God since creation? Or perhaps the Spirit was the ‘Word of God’ that was uttered or breathed by God in the Beginning and then continued along with God in the rest of Creation?

BIBLE APOCRAPHA
Wisdom of Solomon 7:22
“For wisdom, the Fashioner of all things, taught me.”

Could the Spirit of Wisdom be the Holy Spirit that spoke to Mary about having her baby? And the same Holy Spirit that descending upon him at this baptism?

BIBLE
John 1:32
“Then John gave this testimony: ‘I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. I would not have known him, except that the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit’.”

All of this confirms without doubt the writers of the Old Testament and the New Testament were definitely on the lookout for a “Messiah” or “chosen leader of the way to salvation in this life and the next life.”

The word in Hebrew for the ‘chosen one’ or ‘anointed one’ or ‘appointed one’ is ‘Messiah.’
The word in Koine Greek for ‘Messiah’ is ‘Christos’ (became ‘Christ’).
The word in Arabic for it is “Meshiha”

Did Jesus, peace be upon him, ask people to pray to him, or to pray with him, to the God who sent him?

Did Jesus, peace be upon him, claim to be God?

Can the term "son of God" in English really present the meaning intended by the writers of the Bible?

Now let us compare with compassion and wisdom in our hearts. Which of the two concepts make the most sense between Islam and Christianity when it comes to the subject of Jesus, peace be upon him?

Let us compare the two and see what our wisdom and common sense tell us:

According to the teachings of Islam in the Quran and the words of the last prophet, Muhammad, peace be upon him, Jesus, the son of Mary, was predicted, he came to earth as a baby with a mother but no father, he did amazing miracles by the permission of Allah, including even bringing a dead man back to life; he did demonstrate for his followers the very best of behavior and obedience to the commandments of God. And according to the Bible he personally prayed and ask God Almighty to save him from the fate of going to the cross.

The Bible indicates Jesus' prayers at Gethsemane went unanswered, even though he stayed up through the night crying and asking God, "Let this cup pass from me, even so, Your will be done."

Yet, according to Quran, Almighty God did answer his prayers. He did not go to the cross, but rather the likeness of him was put on another person who did go to the cross and Almighty God, caused Jesus, peace be upon him, to be saved, protected and he is with God and will return in the Last Days to lead the true believers to victory over the evil ones.

Some have even speculated the one on the cross was the very one (Judas Thomas Iscariot) who sold out Jesus and his followers for thirty pieces of sliver.

i thought it would help those that have misconceptions about what muslims believe to post this-

What Do Muslims Believe About the Old and New Testament?

First it was the Da Vinci Code controversy - It was everywhere! Dan Brown's book said Jesus in not divine or God, and the gospels as we know them, had been changed, and after Jesus stay here on earth, men raised his status to the level of God. Could any of this be true?

Now the Christian scholar, Professor Bart Ehran's book "Misquoting Jesus" claims they do not even have a "copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy" of anything from the original writings of any of the writers of the Old or the New Testament. What does this do to the faithful?

Ancient secrets of the Church, hidden for centuries have actually been revealed and published in books prior to the Da Vinci Code. Baigent and Leigh have produced other books from researchers point of view over the last two decades, including "Dead Sea Scrolls Deception", "Holy Blood, Holy Grail", and "Messianic Legacy." These books were topics of hot debate when they came out in the early 90's and certainly they have fueled an ongoing interest into just exactly who was this man Jesus, what was his message and what happened to him?

Islam provided solid evidence over 1,400 years ago. The answer, according to Muslim scholars has been in the Quran for over fourteen hundred years Some may be surprised to learn, Muslims believe in the miracle birth and other miracles associated with Jesus. They actually consider him as the "Messiah" and they even say, "peace be upon him" when mentioning his name. But, they are quick to negate any connection between God and Jesus as a partnership or God-head, and they rule out the notion of God having any son (or daughter for that matter).

Muslim scholars "broke the code" like this: Creation itself tells us there is a creator and from the beginning of time – Allah, (the One God in Arabic) alone is to be worshiped. This is clear teaching throughout the Old testament (Torah), the scriptures that Jesus himself read and taught from. God is one not one of three; for example: ‘He is God; there is no other besides Him’. (Deuteronomy 4:35). The same is mentioned in the book of Mark in the New Testament, chapter 12, verse 29, when Jesus, peace be upon him, had been asked about the Greatest Commandment he replied, "To know, O Israel, the Lord your God is One Lord; and you have to love Him with all your heart and all your mind and all your strength."

According to the oldest and most authentic copies of manuscripts and scrolls available throughout the centuries, Jesus, peace be upon him, never claimed to be God, or the creator, or the One to pray to, nor did he tell his followers to revere him as God. These notions appear on the lips of others who came along decades and even centuries later. While Jesus was on earth he did not claim to be the creator or ask us to revere him as God. His miraculous birth is a sign of his prophethood: “Verily, the likeness of Jesus before Allah, is the likeness of Adam. He (Allah) created him from dust and said “Be!” and he was” (Quran 3:59). Like all the great and noble prophets of Allah such as Adam, Abraham, Moses, Isaac and David, Jesus came with one message: Worship, love, obey and submit to the one true God, Allah, the creator of everything and do not worship anything besides Allah.

Throughout history, people have taken to worship things or people alongside Allah, or just worshiping something else like power, status or money. Even the names of religions seem have more to do with the creation and less or nothing to do with the Creator. For example: Buddhism – Buddha (the name of a man), Confucianism – Confucius (the name of a man), Hinduism – Hind (the name of an area), Judaism – Judah (the name of a tribe) and Christianity – Christ (the name of a great prophet).

Islam is different. Islam is a word coming from the verb "aslama" and it carries the meaning of "surrender", "submission", "obedience", "sincerity" and "peace" between you and Almighty Allah (God) and not to any human or anything within creation. Anyone who practices Islam submits to and worships Allah, alone without any partners of any kind.

The Quran states: "There is only One God (Allah) then have reverence for Me and fear Me (and Me alone)." To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and on earth, and to Him is duty due always: then will ye fear other than Allah?" (Quran 16:51-52)

Isn’t it time you join Jesus, the son of Mary, along with all of the other Prophets of Allah and practice the "Submission to the Will of God" (Islam)?
Or simply put: "Worship the Creator - and not His Creations!"

Dear Mr Patel

Happy Eid Mubarak and a Happy New Year to you!

My previous post has gone missing. Hence I will wait until this message appears before proceeding with reposting my previous message.

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

To summarize 102 comments:

Until the koran is "DEFLAWED", no one is safe!!!"

Faithful Muslim:
I pasted an English translation of the so-called “Omar Pact” which was used over the centuries as a template of how Muslims are to treat non-Muslims. This was an answer to those who keep insisting on the “Tolerance of Islam”. I hoped someone would show me where the tolerance was. Instead someone who is deluded by his self importance condescendingly lectured me about a totally different topic; how Turks treated some Jews. When I expressed my preference that he instead discuss how the Turks treated the Arabs, he piled derogatory terms on me such as “nobody” , silly“, “liar”, “ethnocentric” etc. I should be angered by such a personal attack but I am not, because I am not surprised. This is the logic of the ignorant who does not know he is ignorant and is at the same time with no character.

i believe i got this link from a post by pamela taylor- who is a panelist here.

What was Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage?

It is normally believed that she was nine years old at the time of her marriage with Mohammad (sws) was consummated. I do think it was according to the traditions of the Arab culture, as otherwise people would have objected to this marriage. But unfortunately, the modern day man is not satisfied with an answer as simple as that.

Answer:

To begin with[1], I think it is the responsibility of all those who believe that marrying a girl as young as nine years old was an accepted norm of the Arab culture, to provide at least a few examples to substantiate their point of view. I have not yet been able to find a single reliable instance in the books of Arab history where a girl as young as nine years old was given away in marriage. Unless such examples are given, we do not have any reasonable grounds to believe that it really was an accepted norm.

In my opinion, the age of Ayesha (ra) has been grossly misreported in the narratives of the incident. Not only that, I think that the narratives reporting this event are not only highly unreliable but also that on the basis of other historical data, the event reported, is quite an unlikely happening. Let us look at the issue from an objective stand point. My reservations in accepting the narratives, on the basis of which, Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage with the Prophet (pbuh) is held to be nine years are:

Most of these narratives are reported only by Hisham ibn `urwah reporting on the authority of his father. An event as well known as the one being reported, should logically have been reported by more people than just one, two or three.

It is quite strange that no one from Medinah, where Hisham ibn `urwah lived the first seventy-one years of his life has narrated the event, even though in Medinah his pupils included people as well known as Malik ibn Anas. All the narratives of this event have been reported by narrators from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have shifted after living in Medinah for seventy-one years.

Tehzeeb al-Tehzeeb, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions ascribed to the Prophet (pbuh) reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah: "narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq". It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham, which were reported through people of Iraq (Vol. 11, pg. 48 - 51).

Meezaan al-Ai`tidaal, another book on the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that when he was old, Hisham's memory suffered quite badly (Vol. 4, pg. 301 - 302).

According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha (ra) was born about eight years before Hijrah. However, according to another narrative in Bukhari (Kitaab al-Tafseer) Ayesha (ra) is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur'an , was revealed, "I was a young girl". The 54th Surah of the Qur'an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Ayesha (ra) had not only been born before the revelation of the referred Surah, but was actually a young girl (jariyah), not even only an infant (sibyah) at that time. Obviously, if this narrative is held to be true, it is in clear contradiction with the narratives reported by Hisham ibn `urwah. I see absolutely no reason that after the comments of the experts on the narratives of Hisham ibn `urwah, why should we not accept this narrative to be more accurate.

According to a number of narratives, Ayesha (ra) accompanied the Muslims in the battle of Badr and Uhud. Furthermore, it is also reported in books of hadith and history that no one under the age of 15 years was allowed to take part in the battle of Uhud. All the boys below 15 years of age were sent back. Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of Badr and Uhud clearly indicates that she was not nine or ten years old at that time. After all, women used to accompany men to the battlefields to help them, not to be a burden upon them.

According to almost all the historians Asma (ra), the elder sister of Ayesha (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha (ra). It is reported in Taqreeb al-Tehzeeb as well as Al-Bidayah wa al-Nihayah that Asma (ra) died in the 73rd year after hijrah[2] when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma (ra) was 100 years old in the 73rd year after hijrah, she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah. If Asma (ra) was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha (ra) should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Ayesha (ra) - if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH - was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.

Tabari in his treatise on Islamic history, while mentioning Abu Bakr (ra) reports that Abu Bakr had four children and all four were born during the Jahiliyyah - the pre Islamic period. Obviously, if Ayesha (ra) was born in the period of jahiliyyah, she could not have been less than 14 years in 1 AH - the time she most likely got married.

According to Ibn Hisham, the historian, Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam quite some time before Umar ibn Khattab (ra). This shows that Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam during the first year of Islam. While, if the narrative of Ayesha's (ra) marriage at seven years of age is held to be true, Ayesha (ra) should not even have been born during the first year of Islam.

Tabari has also reported that at the time Abu Bakr (ra) planned on migrating to Habshah (8 years before Hijrah), he went to Mut`am - with whose son Ayesha (ra) was engaged at that time - and asked him to take Ayesha (ra) in his house as his son's wife. Mut`am refused, because Abu Bakr had embraced Islam. Subsequently, his son divorced Ayesha (ra). Now, if Ayesha (ra) was only seven years old at the time of her marriage, she could not have been born at the time Abu Bakr decided on migrating to Habshah. On the basis of this report it seems only reasonable to assume that Ayesha (ra) had not only been born 8 years before hijrah, but was also a young lady, quite prepared for marriage.

According to a narrative reported by Ahmad ibn Hanbal, after the death of Khadijah (ra), when Khaulah (ra) came to the Prophet (pbuh) advising him to marry again, the Prophet (pbuh) asked her regarding the choices she had in her mind. Khaulah said: "You can marry a virgin (bikr) or a woman who has already been married (thayyib)". When the Prophet (pbuh) asked about who the virgin was, Khaulah proposed Ayesha's (ra) name. All those who know the Arabic language, are aware that the word "bikr" in the Arabic language is not used for an immature nine-year old girl. The correct word for a young playful girl, as stated earlier is "Jariyah". "Bikr" on the other hand, is used for an unmarried lady, and obviously a nine year old is not a "lady".

According to Ibn Hajar, Fatimah (ra) was five years older than Ayesha (ra). Fatimah (ra) is reported to have been born when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old. Thus, even if this information is taken to be correct, Ayesha (ra) could by no means be less than 14 years old at the time of hijrah, and 15 or 16 years old at the time of her marriage.

These are some of the major points that go against accepting the commonly known narrative regarding Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage.

In my opinion, neither was it an Arab tradition to give away girls in marriage at an age as young as nine or ten years, nor did the Prophet (pbuh) marry Ayesha (ra) at such a young age. The people of Arabia did not object to this marriage, because it never happened in the manner it has been narrated.

http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=question&qid=375

Victoria:

Thank you for your post on jiziyah. A marvelous way to explain in simple words.

Now, I want to return to the charge of the prophet marrying a minor. First of all, the prophet's first wife, Khadijah was 40 when she married the prophet who was only 25 at the time.

Let me go into the demographic aspects of this issue. During the late 19th century and eraly 20th century the average span of life in America was only 22 years.Maternal mortality rate was extremely high. What was the average span of life 1400 year ago? Could it be higher than the early 2oth century America? NO.

So, by the time a girl was 9 years old, half of her life was already over. The so-called child marriage was very common at that time. There are societies even today (e.g rural India),where child marriage is still practiced.

The charge of pedophilia against the prophet (pbh) does not hold true against this back drop.

A. Kafir and Ibrahim Mahfouz keep mentioning Hindus. I can tell the readers about Hindus also. But that is not the present topic.

Ibrahim Mahfouz ansd A. Kafir: Your diatribe against Muslims is totally unjustified and irrelevant.

and as FAITHFUL MUSLIM gently exhorted before-

“Argue with the People of the Scripture in the best manner except those among them who act oppressively. Say: We believe in the revelation that has come down to us and in that which came down to you. Our God and your God is one, and it is to Him we submit ourselves as Muslims.” [Sûrah al-`Ankabût: 46]

“And the slave of the Most-Beneficent (Allah) are those who walk on the earth in humility and sedateness, and when the foolish address them (with bad words) they reply back with mild words of gentleness. And those who spend the night before their Lord, prostrate and standing. And those who say Our Lord! Avert from us the torment of Hell. Verily it’s torment is ever an inseparable, permanent punishment. Evil indeed it (Hell) is as an abode and a place of dwell. And those who when they spend, are neither extravagant nor niggardly, but hold a medium (way) between those (extremes).” (Al-Furqan 25: 63-67

6:151 Take not life, which God hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus does He command you, that ye may learn wisdom. 17:33 Nor take life, which God has made sacred, except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, We have given his heir authority (to demand Qisas(retribution) or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the law) 5:32...if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people."

Allah says: “Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth has been made clear from error. Whoever rejects false worship and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that never breaks. And Allah hears and knows all things.” [Sûrah al-Baqarah: 256]

Allah says: “If it had been your Lord’s will, all of the people on Earth would have believed. Would you then compel the people so to have them believe?” [Sûrah Yûnus: 99]

Allah says: “So if they dispute with you, say ‘I have submitted my whole self to Allah, and so have those who follow me.’ And say to the People of the Scripture and to the unlearned: ‘Do you also submit yourselves?’ If they do, then they are on right guidance. But if they turn away, your duty is only to convey the Message. And in Allah’s sight are all of His servants.” [Sûrah Âl `Imrân: 20]

Allah says: “The Messenger’s duty is but to proclaim the Message.” [Sûrah al-Mâ’idah: 99]

“Allah forbids you not with regard to those who neither fight against you for your faith nor drive you out of your homes from dealing kindly and justly with them, for Allah loves those who are just.” [Sûrah al-Mumtahanah: 9-10]

In his well known book, Islam at the Crossroads, the well-known Muslim writer and author, Mohammad Asad, states the following:

“One of the problems raised by the missionaries and orientalists is the imposition of tribute or jizyah on all non-Muslims. This institution has been so misinterpreted and misexplained that the non-Muslims feel that it is some kind of religious-based discrimination against them. This is not the case. All the jizyah amounts are to be a financial obligation placed upon those who do not have to pay the Zakah.

As the ratio of these two taxes is the same, it is obvious that the jizyah is simply a technique used by Islamic governments to make sure that everyone pays his fair share. If the term ‘jizyah’ is too offensive to non-Muslims, it can always be changed: ‘Umar Ibn Al-Khattab levied the jizyah upon the Christians of Bani Taghlib and called it sadaqah (alms) out of consideration for their feelings.
The noted historian Sir Thomas W. Arnold in his Call to Islam, states:

“This tax was not imposed on the Christians, as some would have us think, as a penalty for their refusal to accept the Muslim faith. Rather, it was paid by them in common with the other dhimmis or non-Muslim subjects of the state whose religion precluded them from serving in the army, in return for the protection secured for them by the arms of the Muslims. When the people of Hirah contributed the sum agreed upon, they expressly mentioned that they paid this jizyah on condition that ‘the Muslims and their leader protect us from those who would oppress us, whether they be Muslims or others.”

In his covenant with the people of certain cities near Al-Haira, Khalid ibn Al-Walid, may Allah be pleased with him, recorded: “If we are able to protect you, we deserve the collection of jizyah; otherwise, we shall not offer you protection.”

The seriousness with which the Muslims took their covenants with the non-Muslims is well illustrated by the following incident. During the reign of the second caliph, `Umar Ibn Al-Khattab, the Roman emperor Heraclius raised a huge army to repel the Muslim forces. It was thus incumbent upon the Muslims to concentrate their efforts on the battle. When the commander of Muslims, Abu ‘Ubaydah (may Allah be pleased with him) heard this news, he wrote to his officials in all conquered cities in Syria and ordered them to return the jizyah which had been levied in those cities. He also addressed the public saying; “We are returning your money because we know that the enemy has gathered troops. By the terms stipulated in the covenant, you have obliged us to protect you. However, since we are now unable to fulfill these conditions, we have returned to you what you paid to us. We shall abide by the terms agreed upon in the covenant, if Allah helps us to rout the enemy.”

Thus, a huge amount was taken form the state treasury and returned to the Christians, making them very happy. They prayed for and blessed the Muslim commanders. They exclaimed, “May Allah help you to overcome your enemies and return you to us safely. If the enemy were in your place, they would never have returned anything to us, but rather they would have taken all our remaining property.”

The jizyah was also imposed on Muslim men who could afford to buy their way out of military service. If a Christian group elected to serve in the state’s military forces, it was exempted from the jizyah. Historical examples of this abound: the Jarajima, a Christian tribe living near Antioch (now in Turkey), by undertaking to support Muslims and to fight on the battle front, did not have to pay the jizyah and were entitled to a share of the captured booty.

When the Islamic conquests reached northern Persia in 22 A.H., a similar covenant was established with a tribe living on the boundaries of those territories. They were consequently exempted from jizyah in view of their military services.

Other examples are to be found during the history of the Ottoman Empire: the Migaris, a group of Albanian Christians, were exempted from the jizyah for undertaking to watch and guard the mountain ranges of Cithaeron and Geraned (which stretch to the Gulf of Corinth). Christians, who served as the vanguard of the Turkish army for road repairs, bridge construction and so on were exempted form the kharaj.

As a reward, they were also provided with some lands, free of all taxes. The Christians of Hydra were exempted when they agreed to supply a group of 250 strong men for the (Muslim) naval fleet. The Armatolis, Christians from southern Romania, were also exempted from the tax, for they constituted a vital element in the Turkish armed forces during the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. The Mirdites, an Albanian Catholic clan who lived in the mountains of northern Scutari, were exempted on the condition that they would offer an armored battalion in wartime. The jizyah was also not imposed on the Greek Christians who had supervised the building of viaducts, which carried water to Constantinople, nor on those who guarded the ammunition in that city, as just compensation for their services to the state. However, Egyptian Muslim peasants exempted from military service was still required to pay the jizyah.”

In conclusion, it’s clear in the light of the above-mentioned facts that the institution of jizyah can never be described as a discriminatory system staged against the non-Muslims. Testifying to that is the shinning history of the early Islamic State and the relation between Muslims and non-Muslims.

May Allah guide you to the straight path, and guide you to that which pleases Him, Amen.

Ibrahim Mahfouz:

"I do not understand why you are lectuering me about the Turks and their treatment of some Jews. I maintained that Islam was not and is not tolerant of other religions, especially Christianity and Hinduism. The Omar Pact is clear enough"

Whether you call it lecturing you or countering your ethnocentrism, the purpose of my posts has been to tell you and others how knowledgeable people like the Jewish Encyclopedia or Uri Avneri illustrate and document the facts about Muslims pointing out the kind of ignorance and misinformation you are spreading. I know for a fact, compared to these individuals or documents like the Jewish Encyclopedia, you are NOBODY. You just express your ethnocentrism.

Evidently, you did not read my post dispelling the myth that the Christian World has solved all its problems of poverty and ignorance and Muslims have not. I cited the examples of Christian Latin America, the Philippines etc.

STOP SPREADING YOUR LIES.

'A'isha reported that the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "Allah is kind and loves kindness and gives for gentleness what he does not give for harshness nor for anything else." [Muslim]

Narrated Jarir: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: He who is deprived of gentleness is deprived of good. (Sunan Abudawud Book #41, Hadith #4791)

"Truly amazing is the affair of the believer. His affair only contains good. If he is blessed with good he thanks God and in that there is good. And if he is afflicted with difficulty he patiently endures and in that there is good." (Sahih Muslim)

“O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah as witnesses to fair dealings and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just, that is next to piety. Fear Allah, indeed Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do.” (Al-Ma’dah :8)

Faithful Muslim:
I do not understand why you are lectuering me about the Turks and their treatment of some Jews. I maintained that Islam was not and is not tolerant of other religions, especially Christianity and Hinduism. The Omar Pact is clear enough. What amazes me is how a primitive culture as that of 7th Century Arabia could be so innovative in demeaning the other. Such ingenuity should have been applied to improve the lot of the millions of Muslims livig in subhuman conditions, then and now. It is ,off course, the fault of the West who colonized the Arab and Muslim countries during the past 200 years.How about primitive colonialism of your friends;the Turks, that lasted 400 years. At least the West exposed the colonized people to the rest of the world. What did the Turks do besides taxing its colonies back to the Stone Age. It is always somebody's elses(West's) fault. That is the mentality that gets its owner nowhere but down.

thanks FAITHFUL MUSLIM - especially for your gentle reminder about advocating good-

im afraid i was posting the same time as you and my very very long post has shoved your own down the line-

i like your posts very much and would actually repost them again but its not my place to do so-
i recommend everyone skip over mine- and read what the faithful muslim has related

even more interesting is the history of what has happened in modern turkey-

currently a democracy with an observant muslim president and prime minister-

actually k- the issue isnt ancient indian history at all-

that is the issue of your choosing-

the post is about american muslims and their identity and leaders-

Nevertheless, Islamic constitutional precedents played a part in the constitutional debates in the United States.19
For example, Alexander Hamilton argued for giving the federal government the right to impose taxes by referring to the example of the Ottoman empire. He noted that the sovereign of that empire had no right to impose a new tax.20
As a consequence, the Ottoman sovereign permitted the governors of the provinces to impose these taxes, and then squeezed out of the governors the sums he required for his and the state's expenses.21
Hamilton concluded, "[w]ho can doubt that the happiness of the people in both countries would be promoted by competent authorities in the proper hands . . . ?"22

In the debates of 1787, Anti-Federalists, using what they judged to be the example of the despotic Turkish government, argued against a strong central government, and demanded guarantees of individual liberties and religious freedom.23
In particular, Daniel Webster, Patrick Henry and Patrick Dollard spoke of the evils of Turkish despotism.24 Alexander Hamilton, on the other hand, saw deeper into the Turkish example, recognizing a complex power structure. He argued that, from one perspective, the Turkish sultan was in fact weak and had limited powers.25
Hamilton then concluded that a strong central government would protect people from oppressive local governments.26

Western commentators on Islam, as external observers, viewed Muslim regimes as embodiments of Islamic principles,27 although, as a later section of this paper will show, nothing could have been further from the truth.
This Western misperception of Muslim regimes made it more difficult for most Western authors to understand or present Islam as it was truly revealed in the Qur'an.28 This problem has persisted in various degrees in this country for the last couple of centuries.

While Islam and Muslim countries were understood by the American population from the point of view of the "Other," some Founding Fathers made serious efforts to educate themselves about Islam and its civilizations. Despite these efforts, the Founding Fathers' attempts to avoid what they saw as the underlying reasons for the failure of democracy in Muslim countries were ultimately misdirected:
Their misunderstanding of Muslim civilizations was based on inaccurate or incomplete information, which produced unreliable analysis.

II. Early Sympathies to Islam among the Founding Fathers

Many of the Founding Fathers were not as uninformed about Islam as are the rest of us, even today. Indeed, some made a special effort to read about Islam and related ancient civilizations.29
Thomas Jefferson's library contained at least one copy of the Qur'an and was rich with books about ancient civilizations, including Islamic ones.30 Jefferson appeared to consider his knowledge of these matters important for the development of the American model of political governance. In that approach, he was not alone.

Madison, for example, read about ancient confederacies before formulating his own proposal for a federal system in the United States.31 The resulting system, however, was decidedly American.
It is, therefore, not surprising that T. J. Barlow reported to Jefferson from Paris that the "federality" of our system of government "is not at all understood in Europe even in theory. The best writers dont [sic] know what we mean by it."32

It is sometimes easy to forget how exciting the period was in which our Founding Fathers lived. It was a period in which they felt that they could design a system of governance from which the rest of the world would benefit.33 They took that responsibility seriously. So, while the general public was referring to Prophet Muhammad as an "infidel" and an "imposter," Jefferson was reading and corresponding with Volney, the author of controversial books on ancient Middle Eastern civilizations.34
Jefferson even quietly translated parts of Volney's controversial book entitled The Ruins, which discusses Islamic civilizations, among others. Jefferson asked Volney to keep this fact confidential, a testimony to the political pressures of the time.35

The Founding Fathers were interested in any precedent, regardless of geography, which could illuminate their work. Patrick Henry, for example, asked the Virginia ratifying convention, "Who has enslaved France, Spain, Germany, Turkey and other countries which groan under tyranny? They have been enslaved by the hands of their own people."36
It was important for the Founding Fathers to lay down the foundation of a system of government which would not breed apathy or result in tyranny. To this end, the example set by the Muslim states was important, given the stature and long history of the Islamic civilization.

Not all that the Founding Fathers read about Islam was negative. Despite popular opinion, some concluded that they needed to have a better understanding of Islam in order to reach a correct analysis. For this reason, Jefferson and others read many books that the public found highly controversial. The first volume of Sale's Koran,37 owned by Jefferson, consisted of the author's exposition and personal assessment of the Prophet Mohammad and the religion he professed.38
In a gesture reflecting public opinion, Sale refers to the Prophet as an "infidel" and an "imposter."39 The thrust of his discussion, however, is to provide a fair assessment of an individual and a religion which was grossly misunderstood in this country. In an introductory statement to the reader, Sale states:

"I shall not here inquire into the reasons why the law of Mohammed has met with so unexampled a reception in the world, (for they are greatly deceived who imagine it to have been propagated by the sword alone) or by what means it came to be embraced by nations which never felt the force of Mohammedan arms, and even by those which stripped the Arabians of their conquests, and put an end to the sovereignty and very being of their Khalifs."40

A few pages later Sale adds: "For how criminal soever Mohammed may have been in imposing a false religion on mankind, the praises due to his real virtues ought not to be denied him."41
Sale concludes that the Prophet's "original design of bringing pagan Arabs to the knowledge of the true God was certainly noble and highly to be commended."42

Sale embarks on a long admiring description of the Prophet's personality and moral character, followed by long detailed chapters on Islamic history, theology, and law.43 In the course of his discussion, he disposes of many of the negative myths about Islam.44
He also compares Islamic law and Islam's historical track record with that of Christianity and Judaism, pointing out that Islam has done no worse than the other two religions.45

Two points made in this manuscript are particularly salient in light of Jefferson's writings. First, Sale points out that Prophet Muhammad rejected the concept of the Trinity and the divinity of the Virgin Mary.46 Jefferson had taken a similar position in his correspondence with William Short.47
Second, Sale states that the Prophet declared that his "business was only to preach and admonish, that he had no authority to compel any person to embrace his religion."48 This point is reiterated by the Qur'an itself, which is translated in the second volume of Sale's Koran.49 Again, Jefferson expressed a similar point of view in his writings about freedom of belief.50

Another author who wrote on such matters was Joseph Priestly.51 Both Jefferson and Adams were not only familiar with Priestly's writings, but may have even encouraged him to write about ancient doctrines.52 In fact, Jefferson ordered a copy of Priestly's book, The Doctrines of Heathen Philosophy Compared With Those of Revelation, for John Adams.53
Both Jefferson and Adams thought, however, that Priestly did not do justice to the topic.54 This critique indicates a certain level of sophistication in the knowledge of the two Founding Fathers of ancient doctrines, a level we are still struggling to acquire in this country today.

Interestingly, in an earlier book, Priestly addressed the doctrine of the unity of God. He argued that the great advantage "Mohammedanism had over the corrupt [C]hristianity" of that time was that it "asserted the great doctrine of the unity of God, against the Trinitarians."55 It therefore appears that, despite the fact that some individuals were quick to brand as "infidels" those who had somewhat different ideas about Christianity, some of the Founding Fathers did not relent in pursuing sources of information on the subject, and speaking out, despite the political fallout.56 This experience no doubt hardened Jefferson's resolve to guarantee freedom of religion for all.

In fact, Jefferson argued that society should be tolerant of the religious practices of others so long as they do not harm the public good.57 He gives the example of killing calves or lambs.58 This appears to be a reference to the Islamic annual custom in which a lamb is sacrificed to celebrate the event where Abraham's son was spared by God and a lamb was sacrificed in his stead.59
If Jefferson was in fact making this reference, then it is possible that Jefferson was thinking of slave practices, since most Muslims in the American colonies at that time were slaves who were brought forcefully from Africa.60 This raises a further question of the extent of contacts between Jefferson and other Founding Fathers, and their slaves, and how many of those were Muslim.

The question of whether the Founding Fathers had meaningful contact with Muslim slaves is not one of idle speculation, since it is established that many of the Muslim slaves were literate and hence assigned to house duties.61 Labor assignments in the house, as opposed to those in the field, would have allowed Muslim slaves to have increased contact with their "masters." Initial inquiry into relationships between colonial masters and slaves has already yielded information that Jefferson, in particular, had extensive contacts with two slaves: Jupiter and Sally Hemmings.62 We do not yet have adequate information as to their religious beliefs or the beliefs of other slaves in the Jefferson household.

Given this historical backdrop, we turn now to the task of presenting a more accurate and genuine understanding of Islam, its basic constitutional principles, and the dynamics of Muslim societies.
This task is within reach because contemporary America is very different from, and significantly more free and diverse than, the America of the Founding Fathers. After all, in those early days, most Muslims in America were slaves. As such, they were denied the right to speak freely.63
By introducing Islam from the perspective of an "internal observer,"64 it is finally possible to present Islam accurately and, thus, to properly refute the claim that Islam is inherently anti-democratic and disrespectful of human rights.

To view the full article, see: http://www.law.upenn.edu/journals/conlaw/issues/vol1/num3/alhibri/alhibri_tf.html

NOTES

1 See, e.g., Judith Miller, The Challenge of Radical Islam, FOREIGN AFFAIRS, Spring 1993, at 43, 50-54 (quoting Bernard Lewis that Islam and liberal democracy do not make natural bedfellows and discussing human rights problems); JOHN ESPOSITO & JOHN VOLL, ISLAM AND DEMOCRACY 23 (1996) (stating that non-Muslims and some conservative Muslims have argued that it is impossible to have an "Islamic democracy"); Kathryn Webber, The Economic Future of Afghan Women: The Interaction Between Islamic Law and Muslim Culture, 18 U. PA. J. INTL ECON. L. 1049, 1056-57 & n.27 (1997) (referring to the ongoing debate over the compatibility of Islam and international human rights agreements); Dressing Down, FIN. TIMES (London), Feb. 1, 1994, at 19 (announcing a debate at the Oxford Union on whether Islam and democracy are compatible); Ken Adelman, WASH. TIMES, Apr. 3, 1996, at A15 ("That Islam remains incompatible with liberty limits the spread of democracy in the post-communist world."). For more on "Orientalism," see EDWARD SAID, ORIENTALISM 59-61, passim (1979).

2 See generally COUNCIL ON AM.-ISLAMIC REL. RES. CENTER, THE STATUS OF MUSLIM CIVIL RIGHTS IN THE UNITED STATES 1998, at 10, 11, 24 (1988). The negative perception of Islam in the West has been demonstrated in newspaper reporting:

After decades of scaring ourselves witless about reds-under-the-bed, it now turns out that we were worrying about the wrong men in beards. It's not the boring drones of Marxist-Leninism who threaten our world, but the mullahs-under-the-mattress, the supposed wild-eyed religious fanatics with bombs under their arms that we should have been terrified of all along as we live in an age of Islamaphobia.

-- Gavin Esler, Stereotypes of Terror That Are Fundamentally Flawed, SCOTSMAN, Aug. 31, 1998, at 11; see also Larry B. Stammer & Carla Hall, Terror in Oklahoma City, L.A. TIMES, Apr. 22, 1995, at A22 (reporting that in the aftermath of the Oklahoma City bombing American Muslims were stereotyped as terrorists and became targets of hostility).

This attitude, while disproportionately directed against Muslims, is not and has not been unique to Muslims. French visitors to the United States in the eighteenth century at times received similar treatment. For example, eighteenth century author Abbe Constatin Francois de Chassebouf Volney's presence in the United States sparked much controversy. Volney was accused in 1797 of being a French spy sent to obtain information to prepare for the re-occupation of Louisiana. See 4 E. MILLICENT SOWERBY, CATALOGUE OF THE LIBRARY OF THOMAS JEFFERSON 213 (1953); Letter from John Adams to Thomas Jefferson (Jan. 23, 1825), in 16 THE WRITINGS OF THOMAS JEFFERSON 102-03 (Albert Ellery Bergh ed., 1903) [hereinafter BERGH] (commenting on the lack of freedom of inquiry and speech in the United States and explicitly mentioning that translating the works of Volney and Dapin could get an individual in trouble). Volney is also singled out by the drafters of the Alien and Sedition Act of 1798. Jefferson sought to attack the proposed law before it appeared on the books. In a letter to James Madison, Jefferson mentioned that the bill would have given Congress the power to deport suspected aliens: "this is understood to be meant for Volney and Collet." Letter from Thomas Jefferson to James Madison (Apr. 26, 1798), in 18 BERGH, supra, at xviii.

3 See ROBERT J. ALLISON, THE CRESCENT OBSCURED: THE UNITED STATES AND THE MUSLIM WORLD 1776-1815, at xv- xvii, 20 (1995). A number of books on the Muslim world were published in the United States in the 1790s. See id. at xv-xvii, 20. These novels, histories, captivity narratives, and biographies on the Prophet Muhammad conveyed a picture of impoverishment wrought by despotic rulers, honest commerce perverted into piracy, and debased women. See id. In essence, to the Americans striving to forge a new country, these writings conveyed a cautionary lesson of what must be avoided.

4 See Timothy Worthington Marr, Imagining Ismael: Studies of Islamic Orientalism in America from the Puritans to Melville 103 (1997) (unpublished Ph.D. dissertation, Yale University) (on file with the Yale University Library); see also ALLISON, supra note (3), at 61-85 (providing an Orientalist view of Muslim women).

5 See, e.g., HUMPHREY PRIDEAUX, THE TRUE NATURE OF THE IMPOSTURE, FULLY DISPLAYED IN THE LIFE OF MAHOMET (1697); ABBE CONSTANTIN FRANCOIS DE CHASSEBOUF VOLNEY, THE RUINS, OR A SURVEY OF THE REVOLUTIONS OF EMPIRES (1796) [hereinafter THE RUINS]; ABBE CONSTANTIN FRANCOIS DE CHASSEBOUF VOLNEY, TRAVELS THROUGH EGYPT AND SYRIA IN THE YEARS 1783, 1784 & 1785 (1798) [hereinafter TRAVELS]; FRANCOIS MARIE AROUET DE VOLTAIRE, MAHOMET, THE IMPOSTER: A TRAGEDY IN FIVE ACTS (1777).

6 See ALLISON, supra note (3), at 59. Muslims were consistently depicted as submissive and accepting of religious and political despotism. See id. The claim that Islam is the source of political tyranny was often a central theme. Prideaux, for instance, depicted Prophet Muhammad as a religious heretic who had exploited religious indifference to create religious and ultimately political tyranny. See id. at 38.

7 See ABBE CONSTANTIN FRANCOIS DE CHASSEBOUF VOLNEY, VOLNEYS ANSWER TO DOCTOR PRIESTLY ON HIS PAMPHLET ENTITLED, "OBSERVATIONS UPON THE INCREASE OF INFIDELITY" 4 (1797) [hereinafter OBSERVATIONS]. Priestly's pamphlet attacked Volney personally and his work The Ruins. In response, Volney wrote that Priestly was pleased to class his pamphlet among the writings of modern unbelievers, see id. at 4, and replied that no one had the right to ask him of his religious opinions, see id. at 8.

8 PRIDEAUX, supra note (5).

9 See id., passim (especially 23, 25, 27, 32, 68-69, 89-90) (warning that the consequences of religious indifference would be religious slavery).

10 See ALLISON, supra note(3), at 41. Lyon was jailed for charging Adams with using the "sacred name of religion" as a "State engine to make mankind hate and persecute one another." Id. Lyon was convicted because of this and other statements he had made in Congress, and in letters to his constituents, stating that Adams was a "notorious and seditious person, and of a depraved mind, and wicked and diabolical disposition." Id.

11 See 1 JOHN TRENCHARD & THOMAS GORDON, CATO'S LETTERS, OR ESSAYS ON LIBERTY, CIVIL AND RELIGIOUS, AND OTHER IMPORTANT SUBJECTS, vol. II, at 131 (Russell & Russell 3d ed. 1969) (1733).

12 See 2 TRENCHARD & GORDON, supra note (11), vol. III, at 33 ("In Turkey, Printing is forbid [sic] . . . . Nor is printing in other Arbitrary Countries of much use but to rivet their Chains."). "Arbitrary Countries" refers to authoritarian countries, many of which were Muslim. See id. at 301 (discussing the examples of the "Caliphs of Egypt," the "Monarchy of Persia," and the empire of Turkey); id., vol. I, at 188 (discussing the "Muley . . . of Morocco," and the Turkish Court); see also ALLISON, supra note (3), at 47-48 (claiming that in the West, books and pamphlets allowed all issues to be discussed freely and expressed in print, while in Turkey, only one book had been printed in the eighteenth century) (citing JOHN FOSS, A JOURNAL OF THE CAPTIVITY AND SUFFERINGS OF JOHN FOSS, SEVERAL YEARS A PRISONER AT ALGIERS: TOGETHER WITH SOME ACCOUNT OF THE TREATMENT OF CHRISTIAN SLAVES WHEN SICK:--AND OBSERVATIONS ON THE MANNERS AND CUSTOMS OF THE ALGERINES 75-76 (1798)).

13 See ALLISON, supra note (3), at 51-54 & n.26. For example, many American writers concluded that a wicked religion had fostered bad government, and a bad government had, in turn, thwarted social progress. See id. at 53-54. Jean Charles Leonard Simonde de Sismondi concluded that the poison that had destroyed the Muslim world came from within. See id. at 51.

14 See TRAVELS, supra note (5), at 7-8; see also ALLISON, supra note (3), at 48 (noting the fatalistic attitude of Muslim people as leading to "indolence").

15 See ALLISON, supra note (3), at 48 (arguing that Volney in particular believed that the "Islamic idea of predestination and the Muslim's willingness to accept everything and anything as the will of God" led to indolence). Allison argued that Turkish despotism had no reason to change, for its mere existence was viewed as reflecting God's will. See id. For a more recent discussion of the notion of Islamic "fatalism," see THOMAS W. LIPPMAN, UNDERSTANDING ISLAM: AN INTRODUCTION TO THE MUSLIM WORLD 75-78 (2d. rev. ed. 1995).

16 See ALLISON, supra note (3), at 50-51 (discussing how religious intolerance had stifled free inquiry and prevented men from rising out of their misery in Egypt and Syria).

17 The perception of tyranny in Islamic countries generally available to Westerners is illustrated in Catos Letters:

It is even Capital , and certain Death [in Turkey], only to reason freely upon their Alcoran . . . . A sure sign of Imposture [Islam, viewed as a false religion]! But by Imposture, Stupidity, and Janzaries [military or police force] his Throne is supported; and his vast but thin Dominions, know no inhabitants but barbarous, ignorant, and miserable Slaves.

-- 2 TRENCHARD & GORDON, supra note (11), vol. III, at 32-33 (bracketed statements added by Editor); see also 1 TRENCHARD & GORDON, supra note (11), vol. II, at 131 (noting the acceptance of Muslims of Mahomet, an "enem[y] of Liberty, Truth, and Peace"); id. at 300-01 (discussing the tyranny of Egypt, Persia and Turkey); id., vol. I, at 187-89 (discussing the submissiveness of Muslims to tyranny); ALLISON, supra note 3, at 51-53, 59 (discussing the Western use of Muslim culture as an illustrative example of the different consequences of religious and political beliefs); supra notes (6), 13-15 and accompanying text.

18 See Patrick Henry, Virginia Convention, 16 June 1788, in 2 DEBATE ON THE CONSTITUTION 696 (Bernard Bailyn ed., 1993) (examining the issue that there is no provision in the Constitution against maintaining a standing army during times of peace). See generally ALLISON, supra note (3), at 57-59 (citing the frequent reference to Muslim cultures during the constitutional debates of 1787-88).

19 See ALLISON, supra note (3), at 57, 59 (citing reference to Muslim cultures during the constitutional debates of 1787-88). Libertarians, such as Mathew Lyon and Thomas Paine, as well as conservatives, including John Adams and Alexander Hamilton, employed the popular view of Islam in their political arguments. See id. at 59. Anti-Federalist critics such as Patrick Dollard, during the South Carolina Convention of 22 May 1788, and Patrick Henry, in the Virginia Convention of 16 June 1788, used the image of Turkish despotism to attack the proposed government. See id. at 57-58.

20 See THE FEDERALIST NO. 30, at 188 (Alexander Hamilton) (Jacob Cooke ed., 1961).

21 See id (arguing for centralized authority to levy taxes by analogizing to the negative consequences illustrated by the Turkish empire).

22 Id.

23 See ALLISON, supra note (3), at 57.

24 See Patrick Dollard, South Carolina Convention, 22 May 1788, in 2 DEBATE ON THE CONSTITUTION, supra note (18), at 593-94; Patrick Henry, Virginia Convention, 16 June 1788, in 2 DEBATE ON THE CONSTITUTION, supra note (18), at 696; Daniel Webster, A Citizen of America, in 1 DEBATE ON THE CONSTITUTION, supra note (18), at 150-51 (arguing against a constitutional provision prohibiting a standing army during times of peace).

25 See FEDERALIST NO. 30, supra note (20), at 188 (noting that the sovereigns in the Turkish empire, although absolute masters of their subjects, had no right to impose taxes).

26 See id. at 188-89 ("In America, from a like cause, the government of the Union has gradually dwindled into a state of decay, approaching nearly to annihilation.").

27 Compare supra text accompanying notes (15-18), with infra Section V (discussing subsequent events which contributed to the demise of genuinely Islamic democratic principles in Muslim civilizations).

28 See infra notes (37-44) and accompanying text. George Sale was careful to cast his discussion of the Prophet Muhammad in negative terms, in conformity with the attitude of the day. Sale took liberty, however, in praising the Prophet for his virtue as a leader, see SALE, infra note (38), at 51, and commended the Prophet's ability to disseminate knowledge of the "true God" to the "pagan Arabs." Id. As to particular Islamic principles, Sale discussed the treatment of women, acknowledging that the Prophet enjoined Muslims to treat women with respect and recognize their right to inherit from their parents, husbands and other relatives. See id. at 183. Sale also noted that Islam put an end to the pagan custom of female infanticide. See id. at 174.

29 See generally 1-5 SOWERBY, supra note (2) (relating that Jefferson's personal library, sold to the Library of Congress in 1812, contained a significant number of books on these subjects, including works by Volney, comparative religious works by Joseph Priestly, Petis de la Croix's Histoire de Timur Bec, Kosmopolitos' The Revolt of Ali Bey, Sir Paul Rycaut's The History of the Present State of the Ottoman Empire, Thomas Broughton's History of All Religions, and Samuel von Pufendorf's The Law of Nature and Nations); see also THOMAS JEFFERSONS LIBRARY: A CATALOG WITH THE ENTRIES IN HIS OWN ORDER 58 (James Gilreath & Douglas L. Wilson eds., 1989); DOUGLAS L. WILSON, JEFFERSON'S BOOKS (1996) (discussing Jefferson's library and book collections).

Alexander Hamilton and James Madison evaluated the governmental structures of the Ottoman Empire and Persia. See THE FEDERALIST NOS. 19, 30, reprinted in 4 THE PAPERS OF ALEXANDER HAMILTON, 384-90, 450-51 (Harold C. Syrett ed., 1962); Constitutional Convention: Remarks on the Abolition of the States, reprinted in 4 THE PAPERS OF ALEXANDER HAMILTON, supra, at 211.

30 See FRANK L. DEWEY, THOMAS JEFFERSON LAWYER 14 (1986) (noting that records of the Virginia Gazette show that Jefferson purchased a copy of Sale's Koran while he was a student at the College of William & Mary in 1764-65). Most likely, <SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 1

i find the notes sometimes more interesting than the body of texts-

peace

Victoria:

Muslims refer to Jews and Chritians as The People of the Books. Islam regards itself as a continuation of the idea of one, eternal and indivisible God preached by Patriarch Abraham and other prophets who followed him.

The Christian belief in Trinity and the Jewish denial of Prophets Jesus and Mohammad (may peace be on them) are the sources of disagreements between the followers of the three great monotheistic religions.

Nevertheless, the Quran still assigns a special place to Christians and Jews as is evident from many verses, including this one: And argue not with the People of the Scripture unless it be in (a way) that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you; our God and your God is One and we are committed to observe peace before Him (Al-Ankabut: 46).

Apart from the religious differences, the long history of political conflict between Islam and Christianity has tended to color the West's view of Islam. In the wake of 9/11 especially, politicians and sections of the media have tended to portray Islam as a religion that preaches perpetual war on the followers of other faiths.

In this well-orchestrated campaign, reference is often made to those verses of the Quran (the collection of which took place over 22 years) which were revealed in actual battle conditions when Muslims were fighting for their survival. Reading them out of context would obviously lead to a gross misunderstanding of the teachings of Islam.

While terrorist groups in the Muslim world have done enormous harm to religious harmony and coexistence, politicians, sections of the media and even responsible people in the Western world have not helped matters by utterances that hurt Muslim religious sentiments.

Muslims are accused of being terrorists when they fight for their freedom in Chechnya, Kashmir, or Palestine. As the leader of the Catholic community, the Pope should take a lead in encouraging a dialog among the intellectuals of the three faiths and perhaps follow the commendable example set by his predecessor, Pope John Paul II, who relentlessly worked for inter-faith harmony, understanding and coexistence.

A genuine dialog requires looking both inward and outward. Muslim intellectuals must put their heads together and work not only for the rejection of extremism by a minority of Muslims but also to chart a strategy to bring modernity to their community.

Victoria, Ibrahim Mahfouz, and A. Kafir

Here is what an Israeli peace activist has to say about Islam.:

The Israeli is Mr. Uri Avnery, a scholar and peace activist and once a Knesset member. In a recent article, Mr. Avnery says, “The treatment of other religions by Islam must be judged by a simple test: how did the Muslim rulers behave for more than a thousand years when they had the power to ’spread the faith by the sword’?”

For many centuries, he says, the Muslims ruled Greece. “Did the Greeks become Muslims? Did anyone try to Islamise them? On the contrary, Christian Greeks held the highest positions in the Ottoman administration.

“The Bulgarians, Serbs, Romanians, Hungarians and other European nations lived at one time or another under Ottoman rule and clung to their Christian faith. Nobody compelled them to become Muslims and all of them remained devoutly Christian.”

Then he points to a fact which perhaps most Christians do not know. When the Crusaders invaded Palestine, the majority had remained Christian in spite of 400 years of Muslim rule. Then “in the name of gentle Jesus”, he says, the Crusaders “massacred its Muslim and Jewish inhabitants”.

He adds: “There is no evidence whatsoever of any attempt to impose Islam on Jews. As is well known, under Muslim rule, the Jews of Spain enjoyed a boom the like of which the Jews did not enjoy anywhere else until almost our time.”

Then giving the names of some great Jewish poets and scholars, Mr. Avnery says, “In Muslim Spain, Jews were ministers, poets, and scientists” and “Christian, Jewish and Muslim scholars worked together and translated ancient Greek philosophical and scientific texts. That was indeed the Golden Age.

“How would this have been possible had the Prophet decreed the ‘spreading of the faith by the sword’?” Then he refers to the re-conquest of Spain by Catholics and says: “The Jews and Muslims were presented with a cruel choice: to become Christians, to be massacred or to leave.”

Then he asks, “Where did the hundreds of thousands of Jews … escape? Almost all of them were received with open arms in the Muslim countries. The Jews settled all over the Muslim world, from Morocco … to Iraq, from Bulgaria (then part of the Ottoman empire) … to Sudan. Nowhere were they persecuted. They knew nothing like the tortures of the Inquisition … and the terrible mass expulsions that took place in almost all Christian countries up to the Holocaust.”

He asks, “Why?” and then he answers, “Because Islam expressly prohibited any persecution of ‘peoples of the book’. In Islamic society, a special place was reserved for Jews and Christians …” Is this fascism?

Then he says something touching: “Every honest Jew who knows the history of his people cannot but feel a deep sense of gratitude to Islam, which has protected the Jews for 50 generations, while the Christian world persecuted the Jews and tried many times ‘by the word’ to get them to abandon their faith”.

The story about “spreading the faith by the sword”, he says “is an evil legend, one of the myths that grew up in Europe” during the many wars with Muslims.

Muslims are mindful that Islam shares common roots with both Judaism and Christianity — the belief in the God of Abraham, Old Testament prophets, and the virgin birth of Jesus, the Messiah.

The Muslims ruled India too for a thousand years but chose to remain a minority rather than become a majority by persecuting the Hindus. Even Delhi had a non-Muslim majority until the fall of the Mughal empire.

Compare all this with inequality by birth in the Hindu caste system, the Hindu practices of urine-drinking, female infanticide, bride-killings for the sake of dowry, burning alive of widows (Sati), and the recent genocide of Muslims in Gujarat, readers will recognize how malicious the propaganda against Muslims is.

Ibrahim Mahfouz and Kafir:

Here are some excerpts from Jewish Encyclopedia.com on Turkey. You might find them informative:
Early History.
Jews have lived in Turkey from very early times. Tradition says that there was a colony of them in Thessaly at the time of Alexander the Great; and later they are found scattered throughout the eastern Roman empire (see Adrianople; Byzantine Empire). The first Jewish colony in Turkey proper was at Brusa, the original Ottoman capital. According to one tradition, when Sultan Urkhan conquered the city (1326) he drove out its former inhabitants and repeopled it with Jews from Damascus and the Byzantine empire. These Jews received a firman permitting them to build a synagogue; and this edifice still exists, being the oldest in Turkey. The Jews lived in a separate quarter called "Yahudi Mahalessi." Outside of Brusa they were allowed to live in any part of the country; and on payment of the "kharaj," the capitation-tax required of all non-Moslem subjects (see below), they might own land and houses in the city or country.
Fourteenth and Fifteenth Centuries.
Under Sultan Murad I. (1360-89) the Turks crossed over into Europe, and the Jews of Thrace and Thessaly came under Ottoman dominion. The change was a welcome one to them, as their new Moslem rulers treated them with much more toleration and justice than they had received from the Christian Byzantines. The Jews even asked their cobelievers from Brusa to come over and teach them Turkish, that they might the quicker adapt themselves to the new conditions. The Jewish community of Adrianople began to flourish, and its yeshibah attracted pupils not only from all parts of Turkey, but also from Hungary, Poland, and Russia. The grand rabbi at Adrianople administered all the communities of Rumelia. About fifty years after the conquest of Adrianople a converted Jewish Moslem, Torlak Kiamal by name, took part in an insurrection of dervishes and preached communistic doctrines, for which he was hanged by Sultan Mohammed I. (1413-21).
Sultan Murad II. (1421-51) was favorably inclined toward the Jews; and with his reign began for them a period of prosperity which lasted for two centuries and which is unequaled in their history in any other country. Jews held influential positions at court; they engaged unrestrictedly in trade and commerce; they dressed and lived as they pleased; and they traveled at their pleasure in all parts of the country. Murad II. had a Jewish body-physician, Isḥaḳ Pasha, entitled "ḥakim bashi" (physician-in-chief), to whom the ruler granted a special firman exempting his family and descendants from all taxes. This was the beginning of a long line of Jewish physicians who obtained power and influence at court. The same sultan created also an army corps of non-Moslems called "gharibah" (= "strangers"); and to this Jews also were admitted when they were unable to pay the kharaj.
Murad's successor, Mohammed the Conqueror (1451-81), issued three days after the conquest of Constantinople a proclamation inviting all former inhabitants to return to the city without fear. Jews were allowed to live freely in the new capital as well as in the other cities of the empire. Permission was granted them to build synagogues and schools and to engage in trade and commerce without restrictions of any kind. The sultan invited Jews from the Morea to settle in Constantinople; and he employed Jewish soldiers. His minister of finance ("defter-dar") was a Jewish physician named Ya'ḳub, and his body-physician was also a Jew, Moses Hamon, of Portuguese origin. The latter likewise received a firman from the sultan exempting his family and descendants from taxes.

Kafir:
The sorry history of European colonialism of the last 200 years from the Middle East to Indonesia is far more relevant to our crisis than the notion that Muslim alienation is rooted in an obsession with recovering the glory of Islam's medieval golden age.

That "the Muslim world has not been able to solve the problem of education, employment, and economic well-being" is no more correct than to claim that solutions of these problems have been found in the Christian world of Latin America , Eastern Europe or the Philippines.

Consider the fact that over 30 percent of Americans are living in poverty and 40-plus million Americans have no health insurance.

No, Muslims are not alone in maiming their own or others. While the genocide of Muslims in Bosnia was state-sponsored, the killings of three innocent Christian girls in Indonesia certainly was not.

Muslim countries like Dubai, Abu Dhabi Bangladesh, Indonesia, Iran, Pakistan, Malaysia, Jordan, Morocco are not living exactly in the cave age. They have vibrant economies.

Admittedly, Muslim countries missed the industrial revolution of Europe, for they lost the age of reason and responded to European colonialism by rejecting everything foreign.

Stop the blame game!

Kafir:

Long before the birth of Christ and Islam, there was an Aryan King named Ashoka. He is known as ASHOKA, THE GREAT. He conquered almost all of India. Afterwards, he was remorseful of the bloodshed, he was responsible for. Like the born again Christians of today, he converted to Buddhism and sent missionaries to S. E. Asia. Hindus of that period disliked him because Buddhism is opposed to the caste system. Go to the hills outside Bombay and you will find places where the Budhists were hiding for a long time.

Following two centuries of the death of Ashoka, the Buddhists were massacred in India and their number dwindled to 2% of India's population. No, its not Muslims or Christians but the Hindus who annihilated Bhudhists of India.

You can find all this in Columbia Encyclopedia.

TO HUMANITY:

One of the interesting things about christianity is that Jesus taught "Love for All" even though most if not all that call themselves christian and have called themselves christian since Jesus's earthly life have not lived up to it and some have very actively not even tried.

Another thing that Jesus taught was to proclaim the "Good News" or the "Gospel", they mean the same, and if someone does not listen, then to shake the dust off your feet, in other words, they can take it or leave it but do not try to force it on anyone.

This is another aspect of what Jesus taught that some very actively ignore

. Another thing that Jesus taught is "give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's", I don't know if this is original or not but it most definitely is seperation of church and state.

Granted, this also has been ignored by some that call themselves and have called themselves followers of Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews.

Another thing that Jesus taught was "My Kingdom is not of this world" and on the most basic level it sure seems very to the point, does it not?

There is not even a hint of trying to set up a Theocracy on earth and even though it may seem that some have tried and some are still trying, that is not even close to what Jesus taught.

A question that I would like to pose, how come the god of islam claims Jesus as his prophet but some of the most straight forward things that Jesus taught are not just ignored but completely twisted from the sheer simplicity and straight forwardness in which they were presented?

The fact that some of the people that call or have called themselves christian haven't followed them is immaterial.

Putting a label, any label, on yourself can be just a smokescreen to hide behind.

Some people really do seem to get upset when I write that "God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof", and guess what maybe they should because what you call yourself and what you are, are not necessarily the same thing, are they?

I am glad that God has a Plan and has had That Plan since before the beginning of creation and that God's Plan will come to Fruition.

I would like to wish the entire planet a Merry Christmas and even though the date that is celebrated as Jesus's birthday here, for the most part in the west, might not be exact, the fact that He became one of us is what is important.

On a post, I read that it is wrong for people to say something like, "God became a filthy animal like us" in referring to Jesus as Who He not only said that He Is but that He really is God-Incarnate.

This might be what the god of islam thinks of human beings but it is not what the True, Living, Triune, Triumphant God thinks of us.

As it says, "God loves us so much that He became One of Us.

I, for one, say: Thank You Father, Son and Holy Spirit; even these are just human words to refer to the Trinity of Pure Love.

It is important what you do and why you do it and what you know.

Take care, be ready, see you in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Sami Q.,

I have found the following on Wikipedia on Nalanda:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nalanda
Due to the disappearance of Buddhism from India during the 12th century, the university was in decline. In 1193, the Nalanda University suffered a final blow after the complex was sacked by Muslim armies[18] under Bakhtiyar Khilji; this event is seen as a milestone in the decline of Buddhism in India. It is said that Khilji asked if there was a copy of the Koran at Nalanda before he sacked it[citation needed]. When the Tibetan translator Chag Lotsawa visited them in 1235, he found them damaged and looted, but still functioning with a small number of monks. Ahir blames the destruction of the temples, monasteries, centers of learning at Nalanda and northern India for the demise of ancient Indian scientific thought in mathematics, astronomy, alchemy, and anatomy.[19] Ling and Scott, however, point out that centres of learning were already declining, before the presence of Muslims.[18] Fortified Sena monasteries along the main route of the invasion were destroyed, and being off the main route both Nalanda and Bodh Gaya survived. Many institutions off the main route such as the Jagaddala Monastery in northern Bengal were untouched and flourishing.[citation needed]

There is more in the book that I mentioned in the earlier post. Now where is the destruction of the library by the Brahmans history that you are quoting.

Faithful Muslim,

You keep dragging in christianity. Chistians killed each other for centuries in sectarian warfare before they arrived at a poin where they could tolerated criticism of each other.
Islam considers non-muslims as less than humans barely above p*ss and sh*t by the words of the Aytollas of iran. The bigotry and hate against the non-muslims that is built into the very foundation of Islam is there and the question is what are the muslims doing to address it?

Nothing. Instead, when questions are raised, the muslims are either playing the victim and yelling "Islamophobia" or lying as demonstrated by the quotes given by Victoria. There are no teachings in Islam about loving non-muslims or even tolerating them. The whole notion of jiziya to be paid with willing submission so they may feel subdued is right from the Quran is the psychological weapon used against the kafirs that underpins the pact of Umar that ibrahim listed.

The issue is not that the christians have resolved their hatred for the "other", the question is why cannot even educated muslims face up to the facts of Islam and Muhammad. Why all the lies to keep insisting that Muhammad was a "nice" guy. Why insist that his Sunnah has to be the basis of Islamic Law that has to be imposed upon the rest of mankind?

Sami Quereshi,

I asked you whether Alexanderia library was a library or not. I did not say it was destroyed by the muslims. Some claim it was destroyed three times, and the last time by muslims but that is disputed by others. I said that the royal library of persia was destroyed by the Calipha Umar and Tabari mentions it and so does ibn Khaldun. The destruction of Nalanda by the Kiliji is well documented. What is your source about the destruction of the Nalanda Library by the Brahmans? The Brahmans contested with the Buddhists but I have to admit that I did not know that they destroyed the Nalanda Library or "University". I would like to know more about it and would like to see a reference. The new book on the destruction of Libraries: Books on Fire: The Destruction of Libraries Throughout History by Peter Skinner. He does not mention the destruction of Nalanda by the Brahmans.

Ibrahim Mahfouz and Mr. Kafir:

Both of you are dragging me into blame game. You seem to be intent on blaming Muslims alone, when I already wrote that the history of both Islam and Christianity is bloody. Now in response to you:

In his commentary published in Chicago Tribune of Sept. 19, 2006 Prof Emeritus, Marty Martin of the University of Chicago Divinity School, wrote:

" I know I'll get hit for suggesting "equivalencies" here, though I am always clear in stating that there is no equivalency between today's radical and extreme Muslims and today's ordinary Christians. But it also must be said that Christians, from the 4th Century to the 18th Century, can match the Muslims one-for-one when it comes to having spread the faith with the sword. Read the history of the Christianization of Europe, and you have to go hunting for that minority of the faithful who spread the faith without the sword, merely by witness and works."

Some Christians believe that Christians have changed and do not commit violence any more. Do I need to remind them of the genocide of Muslims at Srebrenica and Kosovo? Not all blue-eyed white Christians think like Oklahoma City bomber, Timothy McVeigh. Catholics and Protestants have been terrorizing each other for 4 centuries. Nobody has ever called the Army of God fanatics who bombed numerous abortion clinics in America "Christian fascists." And,Who is waiting for the Armageddon and return of Christ and convert all Jews and non-Christians to Christianity and if they don't convert then kill them?

Again, this entire blame game is silly.

oops- previous post- mine

georgiason- you stated-

"Why does Washington Post have this panelist on their payroll who does not participate in his own discussions??"

there are 82 panelists on these boards-
even sally quinn and jon meachem dont respond to posts-

the only panelist ive encountered here who responds is imam pamela taylor.
i guess its the nature of this blog

k- stated-
"You have real comprehension problems. Do you understand simple plain english?
The quotation was
"we're taught to love for others what we love for ourselves"

******compared to****the hadeeth********
"None of you truly believes until he loves for his brother and his neighbor what he loves for himself."

*********compared to ************

"Bedier said: 'Reinstate Christian and Jewish holidays even if it means that we don't get our own holiday. . .(as Muslims) we're taught to love for others what we love for ourselves."

now youre just being silly-

you are trying to impose your own ideas but they cannot be imposed

it is what it is
the actions of the people in florida and their support of it by islamic philosophy belies your claim

it is a peculiar thing to keep bringing attention to your wrongness

you said the hadeeth is fabricated

i proved it is not

you said muslims dont follow thi

clearly, there are msulims who do.

Faithful Muslim:
You consider my listing of the terms of the Omar Pact as a silly comparison of "intolerances". I wonder if you would still think it is "silly" if the majority in this country imposed such a "pact" on you and the other non-Christians living here. The Christians of Syria were the owners of that region and Omar and his band were the intruders. It was not enough to strip them of their lands but also try to strip them of their dignity, and all that in the name of Allah and His Messenger.

Here how four Arab Moslem men are very well assimilated in the USA. Three were born in Jordan and one in Palestine some where around the 1940s. They met in college in the mid 1950s. They came to the US as students in the mid 1960s and either stayed or came back in the 1970 or 1980 as immigrant and are now living in the USA completely assimilated with their children and grand children who know the USA as their only beloved culture and country now and forever. Two married moslem ladies they met in Europe and America and two married Christian Americans. No divorces here. All are highly successful, two are physician who are still practicing , one is an active full professor and one is retired executive from a fortune 500 company. Among their 10 children, 7 are married and only one was married to a fellow Moslem student who for comprmise had two wedding nights one traditional and the other a 21st century American wedding night. Islam is present at their homes but on the wall as Quranic phrases and prayer rugs and their hearts. They do not carry their religion on their shoulder but they are true believers. Their children are a mix of 4 professed Moslems, 1 borne again Christian and 5 non-religious . The grandchidren are two young to tell. The children are 100 percent Americans and you do not even need to ask about the grandchildren. The Chidlren, when asked by their parents if they were treated differently since 9/11 do not even comprehend the question or the reason for such a question. That is how much integrated they are in our American society. Yes Moslems can become and are 100 % Americans and we are a living proof of this.

Since no Muslim--and certainly not Eboo Patel--has yet dared to answer my five questions that goes to the heart of whether Islam is compatible with Western liberal democracy, I pose them again.

I ask Mr. Patel and all Muslims what the most authoritative voices of Islam would say in answer to the five questions posed below.

Here are the questions:
1.Does Islam allow for the separation of church and state?
2.Does Islam allow for the full legal equality of women?
3.Does Islam allow for religious pluralism? For example, if a Muslim male married a Christian female, would the husband and wife be able to say to their children, “We will attend the mosque on Friday and the church on Sunday and consider ourselves a bi-religious family. When each of you is 18 years old, you will be free to choose. You can continue of bilateral approach; or, you can choose one religion over the other; or, you can choose another religion altogether.”
4.What does Islam say (according to the above authoritative voices) should be the fate of heretics? For example, if a member of the Egyptian soccer team got up tomorrow morning and announced he was converting from Islam to Christianity and changing his name from Mohammad Ali to Cassius Clay, what do the authoritative voices of Islam say should be his fate?
5.Does Islam allow for the publication of a scholarly book alleging that Mohammad was a fraud?

(Alternatively, instead of posing the questions to the authoritative voices of Islam, you might ask your Muslim interlocutor to imagine the question was, “What would Islamic textbooks used in the teaching of Muslim students in America say in answer to the following questions?”)

What do Muslims believe the most authoritative voices of Islam would answer in reply to those five questions. Or what answers you would find in an Islamic textbook.

The answers to those questions will determine whether even orthodox Islam can be accommodated to a Western liberal, pluralistic society.

EBOO PATEL'S DIALOGUE OF THE DEAF

I notice readers other than myself (see below) are becoming increasingly aware that Eboo Patel is having a great deal of fun using this forum to engage in a one-sided dialogue with himself. He's found commentator nirvana: a place to post his viewpoints and then totally ignore the responses. Then repeat the process over and over. Great for him, but does it not defeat the purpose of this forum?

Come on, Eboo. Are you really that much of a coward? Are you revealing more about Muslims than you realize, by refusing to engage in debate? Is this the Muslim idea of give-and-take--Muslims give, everybody else takes? Is this intellectual cowardice a clue to why Islam has fallen so far from its Golden Era? Is that why your comments will forever be about the large number of Muslims who have immigrated to America, while there will never be a forum where the topic is about large numbers of Americans immigrating to a Muslim country?

Senseless:
Why does Washington Post have this panelist on their payroll who does not participate in his own discussions??

He is posting absolutely discriminatory, racist stuff about his religion. And expressing pride in it!!!

A Kafir:
What is the point Eboo?

This is not a dialog is it? This is to fill a line on your resume that you post at WP?

Mr. Kafir,
Alexandria was destroyed by the Romans before Islam. Nalanda University was raised to the ground by the fanatic Brahman Hindus in retaliation against Buddhism almost one and a half century before the Khiljis came to power. I am surprised from where you gathered all these fake informations. But I appreciate that you desire to understand Islam. It is upto you to distinguish between the truth and evil.

Victoria,

You have real comprehension problems. Do you understand simple plain english?

The quotation was "we're taught to love for others what we love for ourselves" and I wrote

That is an out right lie. Muslims are not taught to love for others what we love for ourselves. There is a fake hadith that is circulating on the web. I challange any muslim to provide a reference for this sentiment in any Sahih hadith. Give the references. This is an example of Muslims lying and ascribing to Islam what has never been. Why the need to lie?

and then

Islam teaches love for other muslims but nothing but undiluted hatred and contempt for the non-muslim.

So all you have produced is a hadith confirming that Islam only considers other muslims period. By implication non-muslims are excluded.

Non-muslims are barely even considered humans in Islam. Keep defending an ideology that treats fellow humans who do not believe in Allah and Muhammad as Najis and equivalent to urine and feces. Okay.

o my, i dont know why i keep forgetting to post my name today.

first you said the hadeeths were fabrications and lies-
and dont exist-

now youre arguing as to their intended meaning-

"None of you truly believes until he loves for his brother and his neighbor what he loves for himself."
******************************

actually, the fact that there are distinctions made between brother and neighbor would imply a MORE INCLUSIVE MEANING!
none of my neighbors are muslim,

the exclusion is in your own heart-

it is not in mine (and apparently not in the over 50 muslims in the case in florida either-
or for that matter- the entire organization of CAIR itself which has issued a statement of supporting the brother who made the statement)

Speaking before the Hillsborough County Board of County Commissioners, CAIR-FL Central Florida Director Ahmed Bedier announced that his group would officially request the school board to restore the holidays.

Bedier said: 'Reinstate Christian and Jewish holidays even if it means that we don't get our own holiday. . .(as Muslims) we're taught to love for others what we love for ourselves.'

STICK TO YOUR OWN SMALL-HEARTED INTERPRETATION OF WHAT YOU SAY DOESNT EVEN EXIST-

oops- sorry caps-
and ill stick to my own beliefs-

besides, if someone says no, you have no respect for that?

alright then, peace to you k-

you to yours and me to mine, eh?
(well agree to disagre)

I had asked: "Would you like me to show you a few hadiath on how Muhammad really treated other humans who had rejected Islam?"

Victoria wrote:
"
no, not really.

your questions are purely rhetorical-
just a device to levy baseless accusations-
without expectation of answers, or stemming from a real intellectual curiosity"

Well here is one for you from Sahih Bukhari:

Volume 8, Book 82, Number 797:

Narrated Anas bin Malik:

A group of people from 'Ukl (or 'Uraina) tribe ----but I think he said that they were from 'Ukl came to Medina and (they became ill, so) the Prophet ordered them to go to the herd of (Milch) she-camels and told them to go out and drink the camels' urine and milk (as a medicine). So they went and drank it, and when they became healthy, they killed the shepherd and drove away the camels. This news reached the Prophet early in the morning, so he sent (some) men in their pursuit and they were captured and brought to the Prophet before midday. He ordered to cut off their hands and legs and their eyes to be branded with heated iron pieces and they were thrown at Al-Harra, and when they asked for water to drink, they were not given water. (Abu Qilaba said, "Those were the people who committed theft and murder and reverted to disbelief after being believers (Muslims), and fought against Allah and His Apostle").

Simply killing for murder is not good enough for the Last prophet of Allah. They became apostates and fought against Allah and his Apostle and the punishment was cut off their hands and legs and burn their eyes and deny them water as they bleed to death. What a nice guy!!

Samir,

So the library of Alexandria was not a library? You are correct about Taxila but I am not sure if the Guptas were part of the destruction or not. I was thinking about the library of Nalanda ... my mistake. However, I was referring to the famous words of Umar when he burnt the royal library of the persians. According to an account in Al-Tabari, the Arab Commander Sa`d ibn Abi Waqqas wrote to Caliph `Umar ibn al-Khattāb about what should be done with the books at the Persian capital of Ctesiphon in province of Khvârvarân (today known as Iraq). Umar wrote back:
"If the books contradict the Qur'an, they are blasphemous. On the other hand, if they are in agreement, they are not needed." All the books were thrown into the Euphrates. In 1193, the Nalanda University complex was sacked by Turkic Muslim invaders under Bakhtiyar Khilji; this event is seen as a milestone in the decline of Buddhism in India. It is said that Khilji asked if there was a copy of the Koran at Nalanda before he sacked it. It is good that a new wave of learning is emerging among the Muslims throughout the world. The world desperately needs that. The world is too small and too interconnected to not have a billion plus people involved in learning and stepping into the modern world.

Victoria,

Look at the hadeeth, and it should be clear to anyone (and I give the URL's) that the hadeeth are referring to other muslims and non-muslims are obviously excluded.

Personally I don't give a fig what you think, but it is others who read can see the links and judge for themselves.

WELL, you said-

"The only hadith that matters is the first one you cite."

you should say the only one that matters to YOU-
i like the other ones- what are you, the thought police?

you stated-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"That is an out right lie. Muslims are not taught to love for others what we love for ourselves. There is a fake hadith that is circulating on the web. I challange any muslim to provide a reference for this sentiment in any Sahih hadith. Give the references. This is an example of Muslims lying and..."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

heres your sahih references
Recorded by Al-Bukhari and Muslim.

Takhreej

This hadeeth was recorded by al-Bukhari, Muslim, al-Tirmidhi, al-Nasaai, ibn Maajah, ahmad, ibn Hibbaan, al-Daarimi, Abu Yala and numerous others. It should be noted that the narration in Sahih Muslim differs slightly from what al-Nawawi has presented here.

The narration in Muslim states: "None of you truly believes until he loves for his brother - or he said for his neighbor - what he loves for himself." In Muslim's narration there is MENTION of the doubt about the exact wording "or he said".

However, in al-Bukhari's narration there is NO SUCH DOUBT. A narration of Abu Nuaim's work related to Sahih al-Bukhari has the wording.
****************************
"None of you truly believes until he loves for his brother and his neighbor what he loves for himself."
******************************

well- it answers your challenge- it disproves your contention that they are fake hadeeth-

(especially when you yourself so easily found one!)

as for this statement by you-
"Would you like me to show you a few hadiath on how Muhammad really treated other humans who had rejected Islam?"

no, not really.

your questions are purely rhetorical-
just a device to levy baseless accusations-
without expectation of answers, or stemming from a real intellectual curiosity

so, no- im not going to argue like a hypocrite-

and im certainly not going to continue to tolerate you calling muslims liars-
what a broad and silly statement-

so you have your answer and then some.
the next step would be to say, oops, my bad- i was wrong- sorry-

thats what i do when im wrong.

i doubt youll be happy with any answer as you dont want answers- just an excuse to vent
let the headbangers bang.

And here I have found the reference from Sahih Muslim:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/001.smt.html#001.0071

Book 001, Number 0071:

It is reported on the authority of Anas b. Malik that the Messenger of Allah said: None of you is a believer till I am dearer to him than his child, his father and the whole of mankind.

Chapter 18: CONCERNING THE FACT THAT IT IS ONE OF THE CHARACTERISTICS OF IMAN THAT ONE SHOULD LIKE THE SAME THING FOR ONE'S BROTHER-IN-ISLAM AS ONE LIKES FOR ONE'S SELF
Book 001, Number 0072:

It is arrested on the authority of Anas b. Malik that the Prophet (may peace and blessings be upon him) observed: one amongst you believes (truly) till one likes for his brother or for his neighbour that which he loves for himself.

Do you see the title of the Chapter? It is the collection of hadeeth for one's brother-in-Islam or fellow muslim. So please try again.

Mr.A.Kafir,
I shall only reffer the invasion of Halaku, who destroyed and burnt the libraries of Balkh, Bokhara, Samarqand, Baghdad, Damascus, Jerusalem and finally that of Cairo; Particularly, the valuable materials on Islam which were written and preserved during the period of the Umayyads(the first century of Islam) were completely destroyed, what to say about the Abbasids.
"Iqra", Read and Learn, is a part of their belief. The cities, you pointed out, like Taxila were destroyed by the Guptas and the white Huns approximately, one thousand years before the advent of Islam. Do you know that the Muslims were the pioneers of 'Library'in the modern sense. A new wave of learning is emerging now among the Muslims throughout the world.

The only hadith that matters is the first one you cite. And here it is with the link from Sahih Bukhari:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/002.sbt.html#001.002.012
Volume 1, Book 2, Number 12:

Narrated Anas:

The Prophet said, "None of you will have faith till he wishes for his (Muslim) brother what he likes for himself."

Check it for yourself. When the ahadeeth use the word "brother or neighbor" it is always understood as referring to other Muslims. It never means "brother" as in fellow human.

Care to try again? Would you like me to show you a few hadiath on how Muhammad really treated other humans who had rejected Islam? Do you know what is the Hadd punishment for those who "fight Allah and his Messenger"?

On the authority of Abu Hamzah Anas bin Maalik - the servant of the Messenger of Allaah (pbuh) - that the Prophet (pbuh) said :

None of you [truly] believes until he loves for his meighbor that which he loves for himself.
It was related by al-Bukhaaree and Muslim
**************

"He who believes in Allah and the Last Day should speak that which is good or remain silent." [Saheeh Al-Bukhaaree: volume 8, no.157]
************
This also demonstrates an aspect of the Prophet's true and complete Imaan. In Ihya Uloom al-Deen, Al Ghazaali presents a story about a man who complained that his house was infested with rats. He was told to get a cat. His reply was "I fear that if the rats hear the cat's meow, they will flee to adjoining houses and what I like not for myself I do not like for them."
****************

i just like that story

*****************************
"He who amongst you sees something abominable should modify it with the help of his hand; and if he has not strength enough to do it, then he should do it with his tongue; and if he has not strength enough to do it, (even) then he should (abhor it) from his heart and that is the least of faith."
****************************

Abu Huraira narrated that the Prophet (pbuh) said, "Do you know what is backbiting?"(gossip)
They (the companions) said:"Allaah and His Messenger know best."
Thereupon he (the Prophet) said:"Backbiting implies your talking about your brother in a manner which he does not like." It was said to him:"What if what I say about my brother is true?"
He said:"If what you said about him is true then you would have backbitten him, and if it is not true, then he is slandered."
[Reported in Saheeh Muslim: hadeeth 1183]

Hollow words are not fairness, and then those based on a lie? Why the lies. The Moroccan proverb is similar to what he says but the "others" should read "our brothers and sisters". Islam teaches love for other muslims but nothing but undiluted hatred and contempt for the non-muslim.

Go ahead and show that I am wrong. Produce the reference and show that Islam teaches love or even respect for "others as in non-muslims" any where in the Quran, the ahdeeth, or the sunnah. Lies will not wash anymore.

link didnt go through-
http://www.cair-florida.org/ViewArticle.asp?Code=PR&ArticleID=513

It would be hard to miss the sense of fairness in this statement-

Bedier said: 'Reinstate Christian and Jewish holidays even if it means that we don't get our own holiday. . .(as Muslims) we're taught to love for others what we love for ourselves.'

it has it all- sacrificing ones own needs to advocate anothers-

using islamic reasoning to reach this conclusion- there seems to be an almost american sense of egalitatrianism about it, doesnt there?

people standing up for an facing injustices done to others-
even at the expense of imjustice done to oneself.

how many times do we see stories such as this?
not often enough...

is this not the essence of america blended and assimilated with a muslim perspective?

yes it is

"Bedier said: 'Reinstate Christian and Jewish holidays even if it means that we don't get our own holiday. . .(as Muslims) we're taught to love for others what we love for ourselves.'"

That is an out right lie. Muslims are not taught to love for others what we love for ourselves. There is a fake hadith that is circulating on the web. I challange any muslim to provide a reference for this sentiment in any Sahih hadith. Give the references. This is an example of Muslims lying and ascribing to Islam what has never been. Why the need to lie? Such statements are okay in the kafir west, but are meaningless and rejected outright in the muslim world. Any muslim out there, provide a valid reference to this hadith (not a unassigned statement from some silly site) and I will revert back to Islam and acknowledge that I was and have been completely wrong. You see it is easy to catch and point out the lies in the age of the internet.

TAMPA MUSLIMS SEEK REINSTATEMENT OF
CHRISTIAN, JEWISH SCHOOL HOLIDAYS

(TAMPA, FL. 11/2/05) - The Florida office of the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR-FL) today called on the School Board of Hillsborough County to reinstate Christian and Jewish holidays recently removed from the 2006/2007 school calendar.

School board members last week voted to eliminate the holidays following a request by the local Muslim community to schedule a day off on the Muslim holiday of Eid Al-Fitr.

Speaking before the Hillsborough County Board of County Commissioners, CAIR-FL Central Florida Director Ahmed Bedier announced that his group would officially request the school board to restore the holidays.

Bedier said: 'Reinstate Christian and Jewish holidays even if it means that we don't get our own holiday. . .(as Muslims) we're taught to love for others what we love for ourselves.'

VIEW A CLIP OF BEDIER'S STATEMENT AT: http://www.cairfl.org/video/051102_hill_cnty_meet2_hi.wmv

Bedier added that the Muslim community opposed the removal of Christian and Jewish holidays from the school calendar.

FOR BACKGROUND, SEE: 'Hillsborough School Board Members Vote to End Vacation Days for All Religious Holidays,' http://www.sptimes.com/2005/10/26/Hillsborough/School_calendar_will_.shtml

Faithful Muslim,

Of course the blame game is useless. But the discussion is really not the blame game. As an ex-muslim, I know the problem lies that the christian side has learned to deal with criticism and open questioning. The conflicts with science are being dealt with openly. Islam on the other hand is showing itself to be incapable of dealing with an honest look at its self. Eboo cites the word of an egyptian doctor of LA, and in all the many words of the liberal or moderate muslims there is no real self evaluation and criticism of Islam. And that is the problem that is being adressed here.

Muhammad was not a nice human .. period. He was a warlord of the 7th century, and his sunnah cannot be followed in the 21st century. Muhammad's sunnah is marriage to a six year old and sex with her when she is nine. That is codified in Islamic sharia. That is child abuse in the 21st century. Muslims cannot bring themselves to say that. And that is only one example. Islam does not have a monopoly on truth. But read the words of the muslims and they are not willing to accept the validity of other faiths.

As long as muslims will not look at Islam and deal with its problems with modernity, the discussions and problems will remain. Christianity had to change when the press took the bible out of the hands of the priests and put it in the hands of the average joe. Islam cannot hide in the age of the internet. Silencing critics and questions by killing or threats of killing no longer work. Muslims will have to deal with the criticism of Muhammad. His assasination of opponents, his enslaving of women and children of kafirs and distributing them as booty, his claimed right to rape as many slaves as he chose all will become general knowledge and known to the average muslim around the world. Then they will have to decide whether they want to update Muhammad's role in Islam and how much it has to matter in Sharia. The kafirs in this global village will not accept Islam as it is. It is a barbaric 7th century arab imperialism and will face more and more opposition. Muslims can change the rules but they will have to do it honestly. Lying and feigning will not do.

School calendar will be strictly secular
Hillsborough School Board members vote to end vacation days for all religious holidays.
By MELANIE AVE
Published October 26, 2005

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TAMPA - Her voice small and hesitant, 11-year-old Rahma Elmohd told Hillsborough School Board members Tuesday night that she "would like it a lot" if students could get one day off for a Muslim holiday.

It was not to be.

Nearly a year after local Muslims first asked that an Islamic holiday be recognized by the school district - just like Yom Kippur for Jews and Good Friday for Christians - board members voted to end vacation days for all religious holidays.

The board approved a 2006-07 calendar that substitutes three secular vacation days for three Christian and Jewish holidays. The vote was 5-1. Board member Carol Kurdell was absent.

About 50 Muslims, many of them women and girls wearing scarves, attended the packed meeting. They said they were disappointed and saddened by the board's vote but will continue to ask for recognition. Several said they worry about a backlash against Muslims.

"We feel like this is an extreme measure," said Ahmed Bedier, Florida director of the Council on American-Islamic Relations. "We can't say it enough, especially to Christian and Jewish folks, our brothers and sisters in faith: This was not our doing, and we didn't ask for it."

The approved calendar eliminates vacation days coinciding with Yom Kippur, Good Friday and the Monday after Easter. The days will be replaced with time off on Washington's Birthday in February and two days near the end of the school year, which will give students and teachers a four-day weekend.

The calendar is similar to the one used in Pinellas County, which does not time vacation days with religious observances.

The only religious holiday remaining on next year's calendar in Hillsborough is Christmas, which occurs during the district's winter break.

The calendar changes were recommended by a district committee after Bedier asked that Eid al-Fitr - the end of the Muslim holy month of Ramadan - be included.

Most board members said the secular school calendar is fair because it clearly separates church and state.

School Board member Carolyn Bricklemyer called the approved calendar appropriate. "I think we have accommodated people the best we can," she said.

Bricklemyer was a board member in 2001 when Hillsborough became the first Tampa Bay area school district to recognize a Jewish holiday with a day off.

On Tuesday, she said that was a mistake because it opened the door for other religious groups to request vacation days.

"We should not have done that," Bricklemyer said.

Jennifer Faliero was the only board member to vote against the calendar, saying her colleagues were moving toward suppressing religious expression.

Faliero dismissed School Board attorney Tom Gonzalez's opinion that recognizing religious holidays violates the Constitution.

"Why can't we recognize Eid?" Faliero asked. "I just don't get it."

Audience members applauded.

Before the meeting, Bedier and Chuck Leigh, president of the Florida Council of Churches, held a news conference at the School Administrative Center criticizing the board's stance.

"I think the School Board is doing this for no other reason than to avoid giving a holiday to the Muslims," said Leigh, pastor of the Apostolic Catholic Church in Tampa. "Any other reason is eyewash, and I don't think it fools any of us."

Board member Doretha Edgecomb bristled at accusations that the board was ending all religious holidays to avoid supporting Muslims.

"This is a board of integrity," she said. "We take our jobs seriously. This is not a calendar of oppression. This is not a calendar of denial."

Said board Chairwoman Candy Olson, "I think what we're doing is putting (religion) between parents and children and their community of faith."

The new calendar will allow excused absences for religious observances and will not cost students credit toward perfect attendance awards or exam exemptions. Teachers are asked not to schedule tests or major activities on holidays.

After the vote, dozens of Muslims knelt and prayed toward Mecca outside the building as part of their sunset ritual of Ramadan. Afterward, they ate wraps, fruit and dates in the superintendent's conference room to end their daily fast.

Some board members and administrators joined them.

"You can't be angry," Bedier said. "We have agreed to disagree. There is a calendar vote every year. We'll be back next year."

[Last modified October 26, 2005, 00:56:16]

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/10/26/Hillsborough/School_calendar_will_.shtml

Rick:

I do not disagree with you. My grown up children know nothing about the sport of cricket or anything else deemed to be Desi. They know and talk about all American sports. Our younger generation is quite different. They think like and speak like other Americans.

There is nothing wrong in keeping good things from your roots--family values, modesty in dress etc. etc. But good things from your adopted culture are always part of your life.

The diffusion of cultural traits is slow and the new product is always an amalgam of both, and then some.

The blame game is plain silly. Social laws take their own ways of evolving.

A relevant American Muslim identity will only emerge when American born and raised muslims strat taking over the leadership positions in the mosques and other muslim organizations.

The problem right now is that almost all islamic organizations in America are in control of immigrants. These "uncles" and "Aunties" have no intention of assimilating in the american culture. They are perfectly willing to live (and raise their children) in a bubble where they can pretend they are still in Karachi, or Cairo, or Bombay. I have attended a few desi parties and found that I could create a dead silence by merely mentioning the NFL or Baseball. People at these parties will discuss Cricket for hours on end, but you get puzzled looks as soon as you mention Tom Brady, Tony Romo or Barry Bonds.

Islam will become a part of mainstream American only when the voice of Islam in america has an American accent. Unfortunately that is still another Thirty years or so away.

I think the whole debate as to which religion is more tolerant than other religions is silly. The history of Christianity and Islam are bloody. Hinduism is known for its caste system and the atrocities against the Dalits.

America has come a long way.Diversity means recognizing the fact the we Americans come from different sources--European (many versions), Asians (many versions), Africans (many versions), Hispanics (many versions)and many many religions, sects, churches, schools of thought etc.

Diversity does not mean forcing others to think your way, rather developing respect for cultural, linguistic, religious and skin color differences. In short, live and let others live.

People opposed to diversity simply want everything for themselves and do not want others to share the good, only bad. They blame people of other faiths to justify their deeds.

If the pact of Umar that Ibrahim posts was merely historical and could be ignored today no one would care. The problem is that it is very much alive. The treatment of the assyrians in Iraq, the copts in egypt, the hindus and christians in malaysia, pakistan, and bangladesh is all patterned and based on the pact of Umar. Christians still need a presidential approval to repair their churches in the "secular" turkey, or other middle eastern countries where churches are allowed.

When the muslim posters are talking about denying others of rights because they know they are 110% sure that they have the truth then they are implying the Kafirs to be living under the pact of Umar in the here and now. That is why it is important to pay attention to this pact from the eighth century!!!

A number of bloggers on this cite uabashedly claimed that "Islam is Tolerant". Below is a document called "Omar Pact" that shows how tolerant Islam is

The Pact of Omar is supposed to have been the peace accord offered by the Caliph Omar to the Christians of Syria, a "pact" which formed the pattern of later interaction.
We heard from 'Abd al-Rahman ibn Ghanam [died 78/697] as follows: When Omar ibn al-Khattab, may God be pleased with him, accorded a peace to the Christians of Syria, we wrote to him as follows:

In the name of God, the Merciful and Compassionate. This is a letter to the servant of God Omar [ibn al-Khattab], Commander of the Faithful, from the Christians of such-and-such a city. When you came against us, we asked you for safe-conduct (aman) for ourselves, our descendants, our property, and the people of our community, and we undertook the following obligations toward you:
1. We shall not build, in our cities or in their neighborhood, new monasteries, Churches, convents, or monks' cells, nor shall we repair, by day or by night, such of them as fall in ruins or are situated in the quarters of the Muslims.
2. We shall keep our gates wide open for passersby and travelers. We shall give board and lodging to all Muslims who pass our way for three days.
3. We shall not give shelter in our churches or in our dwellings to any spy, nor bide him from the Muslims.
4. We shall not teach the Qur'an to our children.
5. We shall not manifest our religion publicly nor convert anyone to it. We shall not prevent any of our kin from entering Islam if they wish it.
6. We shall show respect toward the Muslims, and we shall rise from our seats when they wish to sit.
7.We shall not seek to resemble the Muslims by imitating any of their garments, the qalansuwa, the turban, footwear, or the parting of the hair. We shall not speak as they do, nor shall we adopt their kunyas.
8.We shall not mount on saddles, nor shall we gird swords nor bear any kind of arms nor carry them on our- persons.
9. We shall not engrave Arabic inscriptions on our seals.
10.We shall not sell fermented drinks.
11. We shall clip the fronts of our heads.
12. We shall always dress in the same way wherever we may be, and we shall bind the zunar round our waists
13. We shall not display our crosses or our books in the roads or markets of the Muslims.
14.We shall use only clappers in our churches very softly. We shall not raise our voices when following our dead. We shall not show lights on any of the roads of the Muslims or in their markets. We shall not bury our dead near the Muslims.
15.We shall not take slaves who have been allotted to Muslims.
16.We shall not build houses overtopping the houses of the Muslims.
(When I brought the letter to Omar, may God be pleased with him, he added, "We shall not strike a Muslim.")
We accept these conditions for ourselves and for the people of our community, and in return we receive safe-conduct.
If we in any way violate these undertakings for which we ourselves stand surety, we forfeit our covenant [dhimma], and we become liable to the penalties for contumacy and sedition.
Omar ibn al-Khittab replied: Sign what they ask, but add two clauses and impose them in addition to those which they have undertaken. They are: "They shall not buy anyone made prisoner by the Muslims," and "Whoever strikes a Muslim with deliberate intent shall forfeit the protection of this pact."
from Al-Turtushi, Siraj al-Muluk, pp. 229-230.
[This was a from hand out at an Islamic History Class at the University of Edinburgh in 1979. Source of translation not given.]

Banglalee Babu, Muhammad contradicted God's holy Scripture and encouraged his armies to murder God's holy people. We the people of God are not surprised by this, however, because the Bible foretold that people would murder God's holy people thinking that they were doing God's will. That is exactly what Koran believing Muslims are doing. As for your veiled claim that the Bible has been changed I will give you the unmet challenge that I have given every Muslim on this subject. Prove that the Holy Bible has mistakes do not just imply it. Just because someone tells you there are mistakes does not make it so. You just believe what you have been told with no proof.

Mr. Eboo Patel,
you have just used the offending word "Islamophobis" and in my opinion any person that uses that word deserves to be called a person with "common sense phobia". Our world will be a better place when all of us will be tolerant of other peoples opinions, including the view of persons that believe in democracy and in decency but don't believe in life after dead nor in a all powerful supreme being.

Mir writes:

"the present generation of americans should know that muslims came to america much before COLUMBUS. They had no prejudice or animosity against people of other religion and that is why you see people of other religion coming to AMERICA in large number.the present day muslims should publicize this FACT as much as possible."

No they did not and this is another of the more than 100% truth facts that Samir was talking about.

Then Mir writes:
"americans should know that land belongs to the CREATOR - ALMIGHTY GOD and everybody has a RIGHT to come and live here.LAND, AIR, WATER and everything belongs to HIM.HE CAN WITHHOLD AIR AND WATER. "

In that the muslim lay the claim to the entire planet. Quran tells the muslim that they are the rulers who decides what is right and forbid what is wrong. Kafirs pay jiziya or die.
Mir, why did you not include Land in your last claim, because there is no muslim country where land is free for all is it? Muslim have no right to come here and live here. Immigration reform anyone?

Then Mir writes:
"No "super power" on earth can stop the air from reaching humanbeings.you cannot control the fires or tornados. the super powers should mend their ways and adopt the policy of LIVE and LET OTHERS LIVE."
Americans have always had a let and let live policy. It is the muslims who have never ever had that policy. Jihad till they rule the world. I think it is the Muslims who better learn the live and let live policy soon. The kafirs of Russia, China, India, Europe among others are kind of getting fed up with the attitude of Muslims are the best and have the right to rule others. Do it soon for your own sake.

the present generation of americans should know that muslims came to america much before COLUMBUS. They had no prejudice or animosity against people of other religion and that is why you see people of other religion coming to AMERICA in large number.the present day muslims should publicize this FACT as much as possible.americans should know that land belongs to the CREATOR - ALMIGHTY GOD and everybody has a RIGHT to come and live here.LAND, AIR, WATER and everything belongs to HIM.HE CAN WITHHOLD AIR AND WATER. No "super power" on earth can stop the air from reaching humanbeings.you cannot control the fires or tornados. the super powers should mend their ways and adopt the policy of LIVE and LET OTHERS LIVE.

the present generation of americans should know that muslims came to america much before COLUMBUS. They had no prejudice or animosity against people of other religion and that is why you see people of other religion coming to AMERICA in large number.the present day muslims should publicize this FACT as much as possible.americans should know that land belongs to the CREATOR - ALMIGHTY GOD and everybody has a RIGHT to come and live here.LAND, AIR, WATER and everything belongs to HIM.HE CAN WITHHOLD AIR AND WATER. No "super power" on earth can stop the air from reaching humanbeings.you cannot control the fires or tornados. the super powers should mend their ways and adopt the policy of LIVE and LET OTHERS LIVE.

Honest Words writes:

"Correct and practicing Muslims are highly tolerant of others but we are over a hundred percent sure of the truth. Therefore, we will not allow people of conflicting ideologies to spread false knowledge."

And in that certainity they know the christians are wrong in calling Jesus "Son of God", the Jews are wrong in trying to follow the Laws they follow, the Hindus are wrong in trying to understand the "Self", the Buddhists are wrong in their attempts to follow the eight fold path!! Honest word spells it out clearly why Islam cannot and will not live with others because Allah speaks to Muslims only through the Quran, And the muslims cannot accept the errors in the Quran because then Allah is wrong and not a mere prophet.

Sami Quereshi writes:
"A lot of research is needed to understand Islam. Unfortunately, the Muslims lost the Cordova, Granada, Cairo, Damascus, Baghdad, Delhi etc world known libraries one by one."

Muslims destroyed the libraries of the Kafirs ... burnt them down. No one has destroyed a single library of the Muslims. If the muslims have become ignorant it is because Quran has to be right. It is because the insistence by the muslims that all knowledge worth knowing is in the Quran. The code of life or deen is silliness like how many pebbles to use to clean the arse, to dip the other wing of the fly if one wing touch the liquid, to wear hijab or niqab, etc. Logic and philosphy was explicitly banned by the Muslim scholars themselves. Sami, give one instance of anyone destroying the libraries of the Muslims. Cordova is the reason why Muslims scream hoarse about how they transferred the ancient greek knowledge to the west. But see what the Muslims did to the libraries of Iran, Taxila, Eastern India, Byzantine.

Soja John Thaikatill,
I am really happy to read your very pertinent question. Simply I can say that Islam is not a religion in the sense the word is used for other religions. It is a universal "Code of Life" for mankind, irrespective of race and creed for ages to come. Islam is not basically a religion of rituals.

As you know, the teachings of Islam spread all the sides from its centre. Briefly, I shall take up only one example that you have referred about the Indian Islam. Islam came to Southern India(as well as to Indonesia, Malaysia and some what to Bengal) through the merchants and religiously learned men direct from Arabian peninsula just after its advent. Islam also entered India from the North, through Afghanistan via Iran,Turkistan, Uzbekistan somehow "researching" in the Universities of Balkh and Bokhara, which were already famous for Zoroastarian and Buddhist teachings before Islam. All the important books on Hadees and Fiqa(Law and Jurisprudence)etc. were compiled and written in those cities. Islam spread in the Northern India when the Turks established their kingdom in the Tenth century while Islam reached in the coastal areas of Southern India at the time of its advent.
A lot of research is needed to understand Islam. Unfortunately, the Muslims lost the Cordova, Granada, Cairo, Damascus, Baghdad, Delhi etc world known libraries one by one. Muslims deprived themselves from learning, the result would have to be ignorance and backwardness, that they are now facing.

"Hindus and Muslims come and live in USA. Hindus don't seem to have problems like Muslims living in America.

The reason is simple. Islam teaches Muslim children to be diffennt from main stream Americans while Hinduism doesn't. "

That is true. The reason for this is because Western Culture conflicts with Islam. It is the same reason why non muslim worship houses are not allowed in holy Muslim cities such as Makka and Medina.

If a teacher wanted to teach at a certain school and she was asked to answer the question "what is two plus two?" and she replied by saying "3," she would obviously not be hired because of her wrong knowledge. For the same reason, Correct and practicing Muslims are highly tolerant of others but we are over a hundred percent sure of the truth. Therefore, we will not allow people of conflicting ideologies to spread false knowledge.

DReam on it!that will never happen in your wildest dreams!so don t count on it!

SAMMER: your a liar. you cant be a good islamic and a good American. if you are islamic you want the world to be islamic, and will murder, kidnapp, torture, kidnapp, rape, and lie and cheat to get it. you have to find that innocent people only means islamics and no one else. you have to find the intentional targeting of women and children as acceptable.
you have to accept that a 9 year old girl is old enough for sex. in otherwords you have to be scum.

Muslims blew up 54 Pakistani Muslims worshipping in a Mosque during a major Muslim festival in Pakistan. This is their love and compassion for each other.

14 Muslims arrested in Belgium for terror related charges.

Please save us.

they grow up in a world where they have to pretend to like and deal thith non islamics and at night they go home and read the book of death - the koran, which tells them not to have christians, jews, hindus, or anynot islamic as friends and workers. they go to the mosque and learn that those of us not islamic can never be innocent so that its ok to murder and blow up our children when they are in the pizza or ice cream parlor.
they learn from islam that kidnapping, torture, rape, holding for ransom, that is acceptable too.
they also learn from the hadith - the works of moho that marry 9 women, one only 6 years old, is acceptable, as is full on intercourse with a 9 year old child.
yes i can see how they are confused. one side is for peace and love and the islamic side is to be prepared to murde those very people you used to call friends.
islam is a cult of death. it started with murder and still practices it as a tenant of that cult 1400 years later.
i used to think that if i could go back into time i would want to see the prince of peace, Jesus. but i know that i would have to give up that possibility. i would want to be there at the birth of moho - so that i could butcher him as he came out of the woumb.

Hey Sammer Muhammad and the rest of you fuzzy wuzzy dream world commentators. I will know the muslims in the US have assimilated when we see mass demonstrations against bin laden(hoomar)by muslims in the west.

Why doesn't the members of your mosque protest the persecution and murder of Christians in Islamic countries? Only then will we see you have assimilated and are passionate believers of human rights. In case you do not know this but in the west, human rights extends to non muslims which in fact is a violation of Islamic philosophy and an oxymoron.

There you have it!! You are not assimilated and can't.

JBE sez "assimilate or get out!" Looks like you've never been to Miami. The Cubans there reject assimilating, saying they're here only until they overthrow Castro. It ain't called Little havan for nothing. They can live their entire life there without learning English. They have Spanish-language TV, radio, cinema, newspapers, magazines, bookstores, and--worst of all-politics.

Their Cuban politics? Car bomb anyone who says we need to accept the fact of Fidel. Bomb museums showing the wrong kind of art. Censor music, films, TV, radio, and the rest of the media to prevent real Cubans from being heard. Bomb airplanes out of the sky and get hailed as a freedom fighter. Physically beat your opponents. Import wholesale your banana republic culture of corruption.

Muslims have assimilated far more than Cubans.

IMRAN

THANK YOU! Of course YOU TOTALLY GET IT!

So do millions of other immigrants to America. The beauty of this country is that you can raise your kids to be consevative in lifestyle without forcing it onto others.

Leading by example is one of the most "American" of all our national behaviors.

I hope they grow to be leaders in their community, wherever they go. Because with your understanding and leadership that the melting pot requires participation of all, and that people who disagree should both be free to follow their own ideas, speech, and path, they would be fabulous ambassadors of America to whomever they meet in the future.

IMRAN -

THANK YOU! Of course YOU TOTALLY GET IT!

So do millions of other immigrants to America. The beauty of this country is that you can raise your kids to be consevative in lifestyle without forcing it onto others.

Leading by example is one of the most "American" of all our national behaviors.

I hope they grow to be leaders in their community, wherever they go. Because with your understanding and leadership that the melting pot requires participation of all, and that people who disagree should both be free to follow their own ideas, speech, and path, they would be fabulous ambassadors of America to whomever they meet in the future.

Ibrahim Hooper, the President of Cair (Council on American Islamic Relations) a supposedly an organization that works to defend the civil rights of Muslims, boasted on more than one occasion that his organization's main aim is to establish Islam as a dominant religion in the USA. This is how he and those like him wish to assimilate; by replacing the US Constitution with the Sharia Law.In other words they want to take this coutry back in time to make it look like Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia. And by God they will if the people of this country would let them.

The words from the link A. Kafir posted ... Interesting read:

"The money in the infidel banks is the daily bread of the mujahideen. The convoys come from Pakistan, through Torkhan or Karachi, are the daily bread of the mujahideen. The money in the banks in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and elsewhere is the daily bread of the mujahideen. The governments that use this money against the Muslims and Islam acquire bombs and airplanes with it, in order to bomb the Muslims. Therefore, this money is the [legitimate] booty of the Muslims.

[...]

"I always tell the mujahideen that if they want to get money, they should beat the infidels and take their money. You must hit them on the head and take their money. You should rob their banks and take the money. You should take their people prisoner, just like the Prophet did. Don't think this is a sin, because the Prophet Muhammad himself exchanged prisoners for ransom. There's nothing wrong with collecting money in exchange for prisoners.

[...]

"Allah willing, America will soon be annihilated, just like the USSR was annihilated. We are convinced of this.

[...]

"Allah willing, we will reach America. The men of this nation will reach America. The goal of this campaign is not only Kabul, Kandahar, or Baghdad. The eyes of the nation of Muhammad are set on Washington, London, Moscow, Paris, Delhi, Beijing, and other countries. This is our goal and, Allah willing, we will get there."

Sammer Muhammad Talking about how well the assimilation is going on in Florida,

Following are excerpts from a speech by Muhammad Taher Al-Farouq, leader of the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan, which was posted on December 3, 2007 at http://ek-is.org, a website hosted in Tampa, FL, and owned by NOC4 Hosts Inc.

To view the clip, visit http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1636.htm.

Muhammad Taher Al-Farouq: "I would like to congratulate the nation of Muhammad, and especially the mujahideen. In this holy month of Ramadhan, we ask them that, as part of their resistance to the enemies of God, His Prophet, the enemies of the Koran, Islam, and the Muslims, they increase their martyrdom and jihad operations, and fight the sworn enemies of Islam - the Jews, the Christians, and the hypocrites - and carry out the best jihad operations.

Banglalee Babu

You are wrong; everything changes and submits to the pressures and impressions of a changeing envirnment and culture. All is ever-changing and mutating, even Islam. You may wish that there was a universal and unchanging Islam, but that is a wish that you cannot see fulfilled.

Re: Assimilate - whomever you are - or get out!

Does this also include us becoming spousal abusers, drug addicts, alcoholics, "seasonal NCAA sports gamblers", and will it also mean we can ignore the Sabbath Day so long as the tail gate party is on at the nearest nfl stadium?

If NO then count me in.

BTW I'm an immigrant and proud of how my two kids both conservative in their thinking have "assimilated" themselves into high school life. Including I may add doing "damn" well in academics.

And you know what the school and the teachers have to be thanked for allowing an environment that allows such assimilation without forcing people to lose their cultural and religious indentities.

Can someone eplain to us non technical, non denominational people what this is supposed to mean:

He set up a mosque in the early 1970s that was intentionally American....................

What is "intentionally American"?

Or what would intentionally un-American be?

Can someone eplain to us non technical, non denominational people what this is supposed to mean:

He set up a mosque in the early 1970s that was intentionally American....................

What is "intentionally American"?

Or what would intenionally un-American be?

It never fails to amaze and amuse me when pundits like Mr. Patel get so much space to wrtie waht essentially is nonsense.

Islam is a religion and is based on the Holy Quran and the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH).
Muslims should be known simply by the strength of their beliefs and the way they live their lives in close conformity with Islamic Teachings.

These is no such thing as an American Muslim identity or an Egyptian Muslim identity or a French Muslim identity.

The one good thing about Islam is we don't need "revised standard versions" to guide us.

Mr. Patel seems to think otherwise.

I really get tired of hearing all this assimilation junk. Im 28, married and have been here most of my life. I was born in Florida and I am Palestinian. We have a huge Muslem population in Florida. All of my relatives, friends and coworkers who are muslem are extremely assimilated. All of us are devout muslems. None of us have a problem being American muslems. I love being American. I love being Arab. And I love love love being muslem and a follower of Abhraham Jesus Muhammad Moses and the rest of the great prophets. The last two nights we were at mosque in Tampa, about 3k muslems. No problems. The third generation of American muslems hardly speak arabic for Gods sake. WE ASSIMILATE JUST FINE. It is the first generation of any race or religion that has a problem moving to a new country. My extended family has been in America since 1920. Who can doubt my loyalties? Just because you have some extremists, on both sides may I add, who espouse violence and terror, does not mean Muslems or anybody else has a problem "assimilating" My religion is perfect. Our culture is not. Culture is redefining the muslem religion. The wahhabi view, helped by American support of Saudi Arabia, has brought on this crap of extremism. I denounce terror in any name.
God Bless America. yes. God remove ridiculously pyschotic rulers who help create tension and wars from our midst. yes.
American muslems are mainly affluent. Wealthy and educated. LOL half the doctors in America are muslem. We dont need help assimilating. We need the media to get off our case. Go investigate the next war someone will create on false pretenses and lies. The last war wasnt even investigated by the media.
Eid Mubarek

Hey Eboo, would you please go talk to your co-religionist and explain to them what you say to us non muslims. Try going to the root of the problem to solve it, not the reaction to it.

Interior Ministry Warns of Radicalization of Muslims
A new study commissioned by Germany's Interior Ministry warns of a growing threat from the radicalization of Muslims in the country. Six percent of Muslims in Germany support violence in the name of Islam, the authors write.

AP
Muslims protest in Dusseldorf against the Danish Muhammad cartoons in this Feb. 2006 photo. The Interior Ministry has warned that exclusion of Muslims from mainstream German society is leading to radicalization.
A new study released by Germany's Interior Ministry has added new fuel to the debate about integration of Muslims in Germany, with the report warning about the danger of radicalization of Muslims.

According to the study, which was published Tuesday, around 40 percent of Muslims surveyed had a "fundamentalist orientation," which the authors defined as a strongly religious worldview and moral values.

However, the authors concluded that the vast majority of Muslims in Germany reject religiously motivated terrorism and violence: Some 92 percent of respondents agreed with the statement that terrorist acts in the name of Islam were a serious sin and an insult to Allah.

But the authors saw a potential threat in a small minority with Islamist leanings: Around 6 percent of those surveyed were classified as having "violent tendencies," while 14 percent of respondents had "anti-democratic" tendencies.

Around 12 percent of the Muslims in Germany identified with a religious-moral critique of the West and supported corporal punishment and the death penalty. The report also concluded that religious beliefs are becoming increasingly important for young people.

The study, which was carried out by Katrin Brettfeld and Peter Wetzels from the Institute for Criminology at the University of Hamburg, was commissioned by the Interior Ministry in an attempt to finding out the extent to which the Muslim community in Germany provides a breeding ground for extremist groups and potential terrorists. The authors interviewed 1,750 Muslims living in Germany for the study. Of that number, around 40 percent had German citizenship.

'Fundamental Religious Orientation'

In the introduction to the report, Interior Minister Wolfgang Schäuble writes that the study leads to the "worrying conclusion that a serious potential for Islamist radicalization has developed in Germany." According to Schäuble, the lack of integration of immigrants into German society is leading to a "fundamental religious orientation."

The survey found that more than half of the respondents felt themselves excluded from German society and felt they were treated as foreigners. Around 20 percent had experienced some form of racism within the last 12 months.

Reacting to the study, Christine Haderthauer, general secretary of the conservative Bavarian party the Christian Social Union, said that her party "has always warned against the dangers of parallel societies. Our fears have been confirmed in a shocking manner." She said that Germany needs "an offensive to promote religious tolerance among young Muslims."

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However social anthropologist Werner Schiffauer urged caution when interpreting the results. He told the daily newspaper Frankfurter Rundschau that "anti-democratic attitudes were equally common among Muslims and Germans (sic)," adding that it could not be concluded that Islam encourages anti-democratic tendencies. Leaders of groups representing the Turkish community and Muslims in Germany also urged caution in interpreting the results.

In concluding that 6 percent of Muslims in Germany have violent tendencies, the study appears to contradict to some extent the findings of Germany's domestic intelligence agency, the Office for the Protection of the Constitution, which monitors Islamist activity in the country. According to its 2006 report, there are currently around 32,000 Islamists in Germany who pose a potential security threat. That figure represents slightly more than 1 percent of the around 3 million Muslims who live in the country.

The Interior Ministry under Schäuble has sparked a series of controversies in recent months. Schäuble was the subject of heated criticism in July of this year when he appeared to suggest in a SPIEGEL interview (more...) that the targeted killing of terrorists might have to be considered. Schäuble's opponents have condemned him for attempting to constantly stretch the limits of what is acceptable under Germany's constitution in the fight against terror.

Other controversial positions Schäuble has promoted recently include taking terrorists into preventive custody, deploying the German army in domestic operations and searching suspects' computers online without their knowledge.

dgs/ap/ddp/afp

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,524739,00.html

There is no such thing as islamophobia. There is such a thing as forced conversions to Islam and Islamic conquest of non muslims.

The staunch cry of assimilation is falling on deaf ears - assimilation takes a generation or two after all. Folks who immigrate to another land and another culture are going to preserve strong ethnic/religous community ties and traditional behavior patterns just in order to survive physically and psychologically.

The following native-born generation will likely be fully assimilated in terms of language and a thorough knowledge of the prevailing cultural customs and values. These children (of immigrants) may in fact excel in cultural accomplishments where others fail. I believe the motivation for success and placing a high premium on the value of education are abundantly in evidence among many sub-groups of immigrants. On the other hand, preservation of one's ethnic heritage also has great value - there are bound to be generaltional conflicts, much less differences with the wider culture. In the end, over time assimilation is pretty inevitable after all.

For a look at a culture that has been marginalized and prevented from assimilating by the dominant culture, we only have to look as far as our own Native American reservations. Very ugly indeed. Gambling casinos don't begin to make up for the damage done to the cultural heritage and humanity of these legislatively mandated second-class citizens. By now they have completely lost the will to assimilate and prefer a completely familiar outsider status.

New immigrants have the option of assimilating selected cultural values and beliefs that seem to benefit and enhance their own survival, and that of their offspring. We native-born types don't have the same option, and unfortunately ingest the cultural garbage along with the intellectual ambrosia and then spend a lifetime figuring out what to keep and what to discard - and that's clearly not enough time for alot of folks.

Whenever I post here, there is usually someone replying that I am Islamaphobic, but I do not think that is true.

For the most part, I thought that this essay made alot of sense. The main problem with religion, which causes so much strife, war, torture, and killing is intolerance.

Islam, unfortunately, is for the most part, an intolerant religion. It actually seems to be a concept that is foreign and alien to many Muslims. Christianity is splintered into many groups, some of them of them actively promote intolerance, but others, having learned their lessons the hard way, actively promote tolerance and toleration for the religous beliefs of others.

This is not a complicated matter, and the discussion does not have to go very deep. There are only 2 choices: intolerance and constant unending conflict over religious matters; or tolerance and peaceful coexestence. I have a high degree of confidence that Muslims in America will gradually adapt to living in a pluralistic society which can only function, if tolerance is the dominating attitude. To me, that is what the "melting pot" means, not that everyone comes out the same, but the many differnt cultures and ways that people have of living, can coexist in toleration of each other.

Of course this is an ideal, which is not exactly the way our society works. But it is something good to aim for, and as I said before, I have some confidence that Muslims will do as well in America as all the many other people have done in the past.

Concerned The non-Christian Still in Bondage to Sin,

Stop spreading all your falsehoods on this thread. You have very conveniently picked non-believing so-called scholars for all your unsupported arguments about Christianity. The truth is that you are a sinner and you know it because your conscience tells you so. That truth alone should tell you that you need forgiveness from God your creator. Jesus is the only one who has paid the price in His death and He is the only one who gives new life through His resurrection from the dead. As for your claim that you were a Christian in the past John says this:

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us" (1 John 2:19).

Time for Eboo's (et al) weekly history and reality lesson:

A synopsis:

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was probably a mythical character. If he was real, he was at best a combination of at least three men. 1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT. http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus. Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/

3. Mohammed, an illiterate, womanizing, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic train bombers in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani koranics, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino koranics.

And who funds these acts of terror? The Islamic Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

4. Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy talking flying fictional thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

5. Hinduism (from an On-line Hindus site)

- "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centered and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’"
The caste/laborer system and cow worship are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

6. Buddhism-

"Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."

"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life.

Muslims find it difficult assimilate simply because islam is a cult. For muslims to assimilate it is the non muslims who must all the hard work like:
Recognise Islam as a peaceful religion even though most terrorist acts are committed by muslims.
Read the quran and accept the muslim position that the evil verses must be interpreted in a different context.
Respect Mohammad as an honourable man and the greatest prophet.
Avoid breeding pig or dogs as this is offensive to muslims.
Allow muslims to contruct huge mosques as this is a sign of multiculturism.
Ban websites offensive to muslims/islam.

Honest words is at least honest.

As an immigrant from europe since childhood, I understand the cultural differences oh too well. I grew up bi-cultural and have had a long hard struggle in my life due to the conflicting messages. Fortunatley I was not raised to think jews and christians are monkeys and pigs who should be annihilated.

I have not and will never in my life assimilate to US culture. What makes anyone think a muslim will?

Dear Mr Patel

Happy Eid Mubarak and a Happy New Year 2008!

In trying to understand Islam, I have begun to realise that Islam is different things to different Muslims. Islam in India I understand is not the same as Islam in Iran, Saudi Arabia or other countries in the ME; neither is Islam the same in the USA, UK or Australia. Local cultures and political systems, the influence of other religions and pre-Islamic history and culture all contribute immensely to how Islam developed or is currently practised. First generation Muslim immigrants to Western countries are different from Muslims who are born in the same non-Muslim Western country. Islam in a country where there is Muslim majority is different to Islam in a country where Muslims are a minority group.

That being the case, non-Muslims looking at Islam from the outside do have some difficulty trying to figure out where a particular Muslim stands.

Until Sept 11 and the rise of militant Islam, Islam was just another religion to the rest of us. Now we are all trying hard to understand and we are still confused. Hopefully the Muslims understand the confusion of non-Muslims and do what it takes to reassure the rest of us.

The way is hard and long on both sides, for us to understand and for Muslims to help us understand.

Thank you for all that you do on your part to allay the fears of non-Muslims! Knowing that you do not have the power over those Muslims who choose to go the way of extremism (and it takes just a few extremists to terrorise the whole world!) still contributes to the unease you sometimes hear expressed by some non-Muslims - despite the great work you do.

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

eid mubarak everyone-

“Home is not where your grandparents are buried, it’s where your grandchildren will be raised.”

what an excellent and far thinking sentiment- i was watching AIR on PBS the other night, and there was a segment about an idea that kurt vonnegut (he passed away last april :( had.
mr vonnegut suggested that the one department this government doesnt have, is a department of the future-
that idea (which seems so very obvious, doesn't it?) just completely blew me away.
a division of forward and future think-tank-
looking at our present actions as a nation and seeing how our children will be impacted-
consciously directing our actions and plans with active goals-

sounds like mr hathout is looking forward too
peace

honest words,

Your "perfect" Qur'an is anti Christian and anti Jew. Do you stand by that?

5:72 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.

5:73 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.

5:74 Will they not rather turn unto Allah and seek forgiveness of Him ? For Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

5:75 The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him. And his mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat (earthly) food. See how We make the revelations clear for them, and see how they are turned away!

9:5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

9:30 And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!

9:31 They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One God. There is no God save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)!

9:32 Fain would they put out the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah disdaineth (aught) save that He shall perfect His light, however much the disbelievers are averse.

9:33 He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the idolaters may be averse.

There is no such thing as "American Islam" in my eyes. However, I agree with many of your other points. I was born in America but raised as a complete and devout Muslim. I am Muslim before I am Pakistani and everything else because I believe, the message of God is just that. It is perfect and spotless. What Allah asks from his people should never change as a result of different generations. Sure, people may say that I am living in the passed but I beg to differ. If Muslims beleive that Allah has created them and this entire world and all its creatures, then there should be no reason for them to find a need for a more "modern islam". Coexistance is a wonderful practice that I myself do as well. However, toleration does not mean that we need to assimilate ourselves into a culture that is not ours.

Thursday December 13, 2007
NIGERIA: CHURCH STRUGGLES TO SURVIVE IN MUSLIM-RUN STATE
After demolition by Kano rulers, burnings by Islamists, survival dangerously uncertain.

KANO, Nigeria, December 13 (Compass Direct News) – After the government destroyed its church building in 2001, a Church of the Brethren in Nigeria congregation bought the Bight of Benin Hotel for 5.5 million naira (US$46,610) as a place of worship. The Kano government offered no explanation for the demolition, much less compensation, and the Rev. James Zoaka said his church’s 13-year-old struggle to survive is far from over. “We are yet to get approval for us to continue to use this place as a place of worship,” said Rev. Zoaka. “The Kano state government may decide at any time to declare this place illegal and then demolish it.” The congregation, which in 1994 stood at about 1,000, has not lost members to splits or defections to other churches. Rather, Rev. Zoaka said, about half of its members have fled Kano city in the threats that accompanied the government demolition of the church and subsequent attacks on Christians. The sanctuary the state demolished had been rebuilt, Rev. Zoaka said, after Muslims burned it down – for the third time.

Breaking News - Monday December 17, 2007
TURKEY: CATHOLIC PRIEST STABBED
Youthful attacker reportedly affected by anti-Christian TV series.

ISTANBUL, December 17 (Compass Direct News) – A 19-year-old Muslim youth stabbed an Italian priest in the stomach yesterday after Sunday services outside a Catholic church in Turkey.

Father Adriano Franchini, 65, was hospitalized overnight in the Aegean city of Izmir, and hospital authorities expected to discharge him today, the Anatolia News Agency reported.

According to the daily Hurriyet newspaper, the arrested assailant admitted in his statement to the police that he had been influenced by a recent episode of the popular television serial drama “Kurtlar Vadisi” (Valley of the Wolves). The series caricatures Christian missionaries as political “infiltrators” who pay poor families to convert to Christianity.

Fr. Franchini was stabbed near Izmir’s St. Anthony Church by a man identified as Ramazan Bay following Sunday mass. Although Bay fled the scene, he was reportedly taken into custody an hour later.

Just before the attack, Fr. Franchini and Bay had a 15-minute conversation following mass in which Bay expressed his interest in becoming a Christian. But at the close of their talk, he suddenly became angry and stabbed the priest, drawing blood but not leaving a deep wound.

Bay’s father said his son left their house in Balikesir to travel to Izmir 10 days ago. Before he left he said he had “found a new job,” Hurriyet reported. “We are very sorry,” the father said.

Disputes sometimes result when Turks visit Catholic and Protestant churches, due to the popular notion that Christians will pay them to come to church or send them out to the West if they convert to Christianity, said Monsignor Luigi Padovese, apostolic vicar of Anatolia.

For this reason, he said, Turkey’s Catholic churches exercise caution when local Muslim citizens show an interest in Christianity. Although Turkey is 99 percent Muslim, the country’s secular laws allow Muslims to officially change their religious identities to another faith.

“If someone will come to us, we must see if he is serious, honest and if he will really be a Christian, not for receiving money or going [abroad],” Padovese said. “We must see the intention.” The bishop said Fr. Franchini was aware of these conditions since he has lived in Turkey for more than 25 years.

Fr. Franchini, who is fluent in Turkish, delivered the homily yesterday at St. Anthony Church. He serves as curate of the House of the Virgin Mary in Ephesus, where Pope Benedict XVI celebrated mass in his papal voyage to Turkey last November.

Although Turkey’s Catholic churches will continue to be careful about newcomers because of this and previous attacks, they will not change their open-door policy, Padovese said. According to the bishop, such attacks are not typical of Turkey’s general population.

“We must be careful, but we don’t see so great a problem,” he said. “[Turkey’s] population is kind, and we don’t have problems with the great part of the Turkish people. At the same time, we must consider each person individually. But we can’t keep the churches closed. It’s not according to the spirit of Jesus.”

The attack comes amid a growing climate of violence against Turkey’s Christian minority population. In February 2006, Italian priest Andrea Santoro was killed while praying in his chapel in Trabzon by a 16-year-old. The attacker was reportedly motivated by anger over Danish cartoons of Islam’s prophet, Muhammad. The cartoons had set off a wave of violence in the Islamic world.

In April, two Turkish converts to Christianity and a German citizen were tortured and killed with knives by five young men at a Christian publishing house in Malatya, in southeastern Turkey. Although the confessed murderers were arrested at the scene and went on trial in late November, the two widowed plaintiffs have appealed to the Turkish judicial authorities to identify and prosecute the perpetrators behind the killers.

A Syrian Orthodox priest who was kidnapped in southeastern Turkey in late November managed to escape his captors – days later. Several of his captors have reportedly been arrested by Turkish authorities.

END

Welcome to the immigrant experience, Mr. Patel. Some may scream that immigrant communities don't immediately set about pleasing radical Christian conservatives, but as a child of immigrants from a scant hundred years or so ago, this is actually part of the 'normal process' that every immigrant community experiences. It takes a few generations.

I'm sure some of these 'gentlemen,' (I'm really sorry about the inhospitality, it's actually a disgrace, as far as I'm concerned,) ..have given this horribly-culturally-imperialistic ultimatium about some Muslim peoples being here.

I would see Muslim people, particularly women, on public transit, afraid to even *see* a look of welcome, and be sad that others try to reinforce the idea they *aren't* welcome. (Not that you don't get a lot of looks from Muslim men like they resent the circumstance of even having to *look* at the likes of me, )

But, still, I know what that is. I've seen it in my own Irish elders.

Things move fast, these days, peple expect instant gratification, maybe along with *instant assimilation.*

My ancestors were mixed-ethnic way before it was cool, I gotta say, and I've seen more than most people even thing happens in America about that kind of thing.

No ilusions, here, but I *look forward* to seeing what Muslim people add to this nation.

I certainly see no promise in the world those who would exclude them would like to make of us.

I've said it before, but when, in particular, Arabic-type women avert their eyes in public from anyone else, it does kinda register as 'They're being beat on.'

Not saying people should 'Assimilate,' just... *do be aware of where you are, ignore the bigots, and realize that some cultural ways *do register in ways that mean *this* culture suspects something's wrong.*

If an exchange teacher can be expected to suffer fifty lashes for not stopping a Muslim kid for naming his teddy bear Mohammed, ...you gotta cut the rest of the world some slack, too.

Cut *yourselves* some slack, too.

You can't see a friendly look if you *don't look up ever,* either.

as A Pagan American, my tonic against the religious intolerance *here* (Or in major metropolitan areas where I've lived,) is to get out and see the *real* people.

Also as a Pagan American, I can say the best defense against all this religious intolerance is very simple.

Know. Your. Neighbors. Be human *before* you're Pagan, or Muslim, or Jew, or whatever.

It's getting weird, here, much to our shame.

But this is still America.

The ideal in America is of a society that was built not around an ethnicity or one culture but an idea: a republican political system. Of course the division was not clear. The freedoms that the early America brought forth was restricted to a few white males. The Immigration bill Patel refers marked the evolution of that system to include non-Europeans. That idea of freedom is now being shaped and expanded in America by many cultures.

Well put, Mr. Patel. I'd like to bring two points to the table here in light of Mr. Patel's insightful words, however--

First off, to speak of the United States or "America" as this wonderous melting pot for all different cultures may feel nice at first, but it ultimately gets us in a really big mess as "Americans." I fall into the same trap quite frequently, but that doesn't mean it's right. I feel that we will never be able to fully understand what it is to be so-called American until we acknowledge the fact that the creation of an "American youth culture" as we know it today, is the direct result of a genocide that took place relatively recently in historical terms. To forget the truth of this history, especially as recent imigrants to this country, is to create an "America" that has no solid roots. As a daughter of imigrants, I feel a very strong need to fully acknowledge that it was the slaughter of countless native Americans that made "America" possible. This may seem irrelevant to some in reference to a discussion of Muslim-Americans today, but as a Muslim-American today, I think it is an unforgettable reality that cannot be ignored whenever we discuss what it is to be truly "American."

Secondly, I think we should also acknowledge that there is some beauty and value in recognizing our unique differences as Muslim Americans. As an Iranian-American Muslim woman who grew up in Ohio, my experiences and interpretations of the world are much different than that of an Indian-American Muslim man who grew up in Detroit or even an Iranian American Muslim woman who grew up in LA. All of us, regardless of our race, nationality or religion, have unique experiences and backrounds that shape the people we become and the people who we are constantly becoming. I think we can learn from each other, but that doesn't mean that we have to bleed into each other. I think there is something beautiful about being Iranian that exceeds Islam, just as I think there is something beautiful about being Muslim that exceeds Iran. I just think that this is another important thing to note when we are looking at what it means to be "American" today.

".....you also go crazy if you feel like your different identities are constantly at war with each other..." is because young people who are forced with their parents' religious extremism are at war with who they are against what they are being taught. Babies, like puppies, are born without racial or religious prejudice. This is their natural state. As their parents teach them hatred, their natural state of love and acceptance wars with these teachings. Young people are very intelligent and see the discordance with what makes sense and what how they are being brainwashed. It's the Muslim's fault their teens suffer just as it is the neochristians' fault theirs do too. There is no coherence with America when the majority is Christian and the Koran teaches Christians are infidels who should be coverted or murdered.

Abraham weeps.

Robert James,

For your own sake and for the sake of people you love, educate yourself a bit about Islam and it various aspects.

http://www.bosnewslife.com/news/3333-pakistan-couple-and-children-threatened-with

Why is such egregious hatred against all non-muslims pervasive in all muslim countries?

Robt James definitely has a half-empty and hopeless outlook, made clear by his denunciation of the USA as elitist, racist, and anything else you want to throw at it. I challenge Mr. James to show one example of government in human history that does not have those faults. No state in human history has less to self-flagellate about than the USA at this time.
To reach any other conclusion, to borrow the phrase, "is just a nauseating delusion that ignores the inherent cruelties that characterise [any given nation-state]."
Cruelties in the USA? Yes, but also compassion, fairness and opportunities on a level unheard of in recorded history.
Since Mr. James has written off the USA as beyond hope, he probably ought to switch subjects to where his opinion might make a difference.
As for the writer, I've said it before and I'll say it again: Islam and the US Constitution are on a collision course - the politics of Islam are too far out in the fringe to make peace with our Constitution. I applaud the writer's efforts to the contrary though, but offer these cautionary words - When they issue a fatwa on you for defaming Islam, make sure you have a place to hide.

Eboo,

Hindus and Muslims come and live in USA. Hindus don't seem to have problems like Muslims living in America.

The reason is simple. Islam teaches Muslim children to be diffennt from main stream Americans while Hinduism doesn't.

An earlier poster here talks to assimilation into the culture of the USA. That same writer points out that this assimilation, the willingness and desire by those not born in this country to become part of this country, does not automatically and necessarily require one to abandon one's own faith, one's tradition, one's beliefs, but rather learn to honor and respect and PRACTICE both. I fear that not enough immigrants to America grasp that concept; seeming to believe that it's an "all-or-nothing-at-all" situation, that one must be entirely Chrisitan or entirely Muslim or entirely Bhuddist or entirely anything. There is room enough in America for you. There is room enough in America for your belief systems and your heritage and your culture. There IS NOT a place in America for radical religious hatred of any stripe; Muslim, Christian, Bhuddist, et al. If new immigrants to the USA will accept that Americans also have a belief system, concepts of values for themselves and their families, and can at the same time embrace those aspects of American life that Americans value while not giving up their own belifs, we all could live in this great land together. We can accept Muslim-Americans, or Bhuddist-Americans openly and lovingly. It is very difficult for Americans to accept Muslims who neither approve or accept American ways and values. That separateness only tends to keep each culture separated, isolated from each other with little room and almost no avenues for acceptance or tolerance. In many Islamic countries it is demanded that visiting westerners learn and respect the laws and customs of that Islamic culture. Why should not the same expectation apply to you in America? Become an American instead of remaining an outsider within our midst; you may be delightfully surprised at the result.

Societies alienate groups who are not regarded as mainstream. Xenophobia will remain alive and well until a few decades pass. Then it will be the turn of another group to be alienated, insulted and demeaned.

Alienated groups sometimes have groups or individuals who fight each other as a reaction to being alienated.

The comments that will accompany this article will manifest all kinds of feelings including anger from those within the alienated group and unjustified superiority from those who are part of the mainstream and who feel a 'need' to attack Moslems.

As soon as 'good'Christians' start practising a little bit of charity and accept people as they find them then Moslems will become accepted as just another mainstream group. Until then 'good Christians' will demean Moslems and encourage friction and intolerance.

If you ask Italians who are in their seventies how they were treated as children and as young adults how they were treated by the mainstream and they will tell you that they were insulted for being different.

Bigotry is alive and well as a strong social undercurrent.

Americans might think they belong to the Greatest Nation that ever was but I think that is just a nauseating delusion that ignores the inherent cruelties that characterise America.

The Statue of Liberty should read: Give me your poor so that I can drive past them in my Cadillac and ignore them until I step outside it whereupon I will insult them for having less than I have.

That "insulating bubble" you mentioned?

It is precisely THAT BUBBLE - the REFUSAL to assimilate - that infuriates American citizens, paints all muslims as extremist in the eyes of the uneducated, and makes those inside the bubble pariah to American democracy.

Thank you for telling the truth about it and for your efforts to pop the bubble!

Immigrants from ANY nation who try and insulate themselves, and their kids from American culture, avoiding and fighting against assimilation DO NOT BELONG HERE!

This does not mean one should abandon their own culture. It means they need to add their's to the melting pot, accept that tribalism is not appropriate in the USA, and practice democracy by becoming a citizen, learning perfect english, taking advantage of education opportunities, and voting.

Assimilate - whomever you are - or get out!

Why does Washington Post have this panelist on their payroll who does not participate in his own discussions??

He is posting absolutely discriminatory, racist stuff about his religion. And expressing pride in it!!!

What is the point Eboo?

This is not a dialog is it? This is to fill a line on your resume that you post at WP?

Muslim leaders need to know only one fact:

Until the koran is "DEFLAWED", no one is safe!!!!