Eboo,

How did you marry a Muslim woman? That's pretty impressive. Didn't you know that Muslim men try and marry the Hindu women? It's their secret agenda to convert and breed us out. You make me proud! Chalk one up for the Hindus!!!

-Shal

arif- for one who doesnt believe in hadeeth- it surely has impacted your concept of Muhammad(pbuh)

you have to be consistent-

if you're going to believe them- (as you obviously are using them as your source for your opinions about the Prophet(pbuh)

then you have to believe the ones that contradict the ones you believe.

the good ones, they may not support your feelings- but they are exponentially greater in number than the few youve focused on-
which, are conflicted with the qu'ran, and the bulk of the hadeeth-

which one is it?

Question:

What was Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage?

It is normally believed that she was nine years old at the time of her marriage with Mohammad (sws) was consummated. I do think it was according to the traditions of the Arab culture, as otherwise people would have objected to this marriage. But unfortunately, the modern day man is not satisfied with an answer as simple as that.

Answer:

To begin with[1], I think it is the responsibility of all those who believe that marrying a girl as young as nine years old was an accepted norm of the Arab culture, to provide at least a few examples to substantiate their point of view. I have not yet been able to find a single reliable instance in the books of Arab history where a girl as young as nine years old was given away in marriage. Unless such examples are given, we do not have any reasonable grounds to believe that it really was an accepted norm.

In my opinion, the age of Ayesha (ra) has been grossly misreported in the narratives of the incident. Not only that, I think that the narratives reporting this event are not only highly unreliable but also that on the basis of other historical data, the event reported, is quite an unlikely happening. Let us look at the issue from an objective stand point. My reservations in accepting the narratives, on the basis of which, Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage with the Prophet (pbuh) is held to be nine years are:

Most of these narratives are reported only by Hisham ibn `urwah reporting on the authority of his father. An event as well known as the one being reported, should logically have been reported by more people than just one, two or three.

It is quite strange that no one from Medinah, where Hisham ibn `urwah lived the first seventy-one years of his life has narrated the event, even though in Medinah his pupils included people as well known as Malik ibn Anas. All the narratives of this event have been reported by narrators from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have shifted after living in Medinah for seventy-one years.

Tehzeeb al-Tehzeeb, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions ascribed to the Prophet (pbuh) reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah: "narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq". It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham, which were reported through people of Iraq (Vol. 11, pg. 48 - 51).

Meezaan al-Ai`tidaal, another book on the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that when he was old, Hisham's memory suffered quite badly (Vol. 4, pg. 301 - 302).

According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha (ra) was born about eight years before Hijrah. However, according to another narrative in Bukhari (Kitaab al-Tafseer) Ayesha (ra) is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur'an , was revealed, "I was a young girl". The 54th Surah of the Qur'an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Ayesha (ra) had not only been born before the revelation of the referred Surah, but was actually a young girl (jariyah), not even only an infant (sibyah) at that time. Obviously, if this narrative is held to be true, it is in clear contradiction with the narratives reported by Hisham ibn `urwah. I see absolutely no reason that after the comments of the experts on the narratives of Hisham ibn `urwah, why should we not accept this narrative to be more accurate.

According to a number of narratives, Ayesha (ra) accompanied the Muslims in the battle of Badr and Uhud. Furthermore, it is also reported in books of hadith and history that no one under the age of 15 years was allowed to take part in the battle of Uhud. All the boys below 15 years of age were sent back. Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of Badr and Uhud clearly indicates that she was not nine or ten years old at that time. After all, women used to accompany men to the battlefields to help them, not to be a burden upon them.

According to almost all the historians Asma (ra), the elder sister of Ayesha (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha (ra). It is reported in Taqreeb al-Tehzeeb as well as Al-Bidayah wa al-Nihayah that Asma (ra) died in the 73rd year after hijrah[2] when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma (ra) was 100 years old in the 73rd year after hijrah, she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah. If Asma (ra) was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha (ra) should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Ayesha (ra) - if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH - was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.

Tabari in his treatise on Islamic history, while mentioning Abu Bakr (ra) reports that Abu Bakr had four children and all four were born during the Jahiliyyah - the pre Islamic period. Obviously, if Ayesha (ra) was born in the period of jahiliyyah, she could not have been less than 14 years in 1 AH - the time she most likely got married.

According to Ibn Hisham, the historian, Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam quite some time before Umar ibn Khattab (ra). This shows that Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam during the first year of Islam. While, if the narrative of Ayesha's (ra) marriage at seven years of age is held to be true, Ayesha (ra) should not even have been born during the first year of Islam.

Tabari has also reported that at the time Abu Bakr (ra) planned on migrating to Habshah (8 years before Hijrah), he went to Mut`am - with whose son Ayesha (ra) was engaged at that time - and asked him to take Ayesha (ra) in his house as his son's wife. Mut`am refused, because Abu Bakr had embraced Islam. Subsequently, his son divorced Ayesha (ra). Now, if Ayesha (ra) was only seven years old at the time of her marriage, she could not have been born at the time Abu Bakr decided on migrating to Habshah. On the basis of this report it seems only reasonable to assume that Ayesha (ra) had not only been born 8 years before hijrah, but was also a young lady, quite prepared for marriage.

According to a narrative reported by Ahmad ibn Hanbal, after the death of Khadijah (ra), when Khaulah (ra) came to the Prophet (pbuh) advising him to marry again, the Prophet (pbuh) asked her regarding the choices she had in her mind. Khaulah said: "You can marry a virgin (bikr) or a woman who has already been married (thayyib)". When the Prophet (pbuh) asked about who the virgin was, Khaulah proposed Ayesha's (ra) name. All those who know the Arabic language, are aware that the word "bikr" in the Arabic language is not used for an immature nine-year old girl. The correct word for a young playful girl, as stated earlier is "Jariyah". "Bikr" on the other hand, is used for an unmarried lady, and obviously a nine year old is not a "lady".

According to Ibn Hajar, Fatimah (ra) was five years older than Ayesha (ra). Fatimah (ra) is reported to have been born when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old. Thus, even if this information is taken to be correct, Ayesha (ra) could by no means be less than 14 years old at the time of hijrah, and 15 or 16 years old at the time of her marriage.

These are some of the major points that go against accepting the commonly known narrative regarding Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage.

In my opinion, neither was it an Arab tradition to give away girls in marriage at an age as young as nine or ten years, nor did the Prophet (pbuh) marry Ayesha (ra) at such a young age. The people of Arabia did not object to this marriage, because it never happened in the manner it has been narrated.

1st May 1998

[1] The answer to this question is primarily based on the research by Habib ur Rahman Kandhalwi (urdu) as presented in his booklet, "Tehqiq e umar e Siddiqah e Ka'inat", Anjuman Uswa e hasanah, Karachi, Pakistan

[2] That is, the migration of the Prophet (pbuh)

read this cut and pasteand see if it makes sense-
do the math ( i did)
peace

Hello Victoria,
In a recent conversation with an old friend of mine, a Muslim from my home country confessed that early on he doubted Islam, the Koran and Mohammed's prophecy. However after certain trials in his life he reverted back and is now a very devout Muslim. I asked him several questions but one that sticks out I'll ask you the same;
What is in the koran that you find divine? What is written there that one can say are truly words of a Creator of the Universe?
I never got a satisfactory answer, the verses he quoted were quite ordinary, something a mere human could reproduce. In fact what he quoted from the koran I showed him comparable sayings by mere mortals far superior. He has promised that he will show me some more on doing more research... I still wait.

Yo’ve said something like this often...
"id say that your inabililty to accept my love of the Prophet(pbuh) and the value ive found in islam- is clouded by your own personal hatred- of same."

I may have shared some anecdotes that portrayed my uncle or parents in a negative way for that I'm sorry. I don't fault them for what they did, in fact my family is a very loving and kind one. I grew up in a wonderful atmosphere, I have great respect for them and how they have shaped my life. At that time I believed in everything Islam had and loved the prophet dearly. I would never have left islam had I not left Pakistan.
It is only America’s fault that I now see things differently and cannot accept Islam, the koran and mohammed as a prophet. I find mohemmed a repilsive man and I'll share my views on him with you if time and the opportunity present itself.

You said:
"even in christianity, there was no call for the people of the nations to be a part of it- that is all inventions of paul-"
I don't care because the Christians are not a threat to the world, Muslims are.

Also...
"i recommend you go to a synagogue and express an interest in judaism and a desire to convert, and see how readily you are "accepted".
Now why would I want to have religion over my head, why after I have shaken one yolk off my neck would I want another mind numbing noose around my neck? No thanks! I'm not interested in religious mind control. Great many people need a religion to guide them or save them, I however don't. I don't subscribe to a God who punishes and kills his own creation, or one who finds pleasure in his creation bowing to him or being his slaves. One who dictates grammatically poor verses to angels and a menacing misogynist man. Which brings me to another point, why does the koran have so manny grammatical errors? Why does it seem that Allah is talking sometimes and other times it is clearly mohammed talking? Why does Allah switch from first person to third person?

Your cousin; tragic indeed she made a bad choice and the other bad choice is that she never ditched him.
Why are you telling me that story? Is Christianity bad? Jesus made a grave error when he said marry only once? Compare that to what Mohammed did, he had multiple wives, also he had a child bride something we call pedophilia in the west. Lets see what Mohammed did, the koran limits four wives but there is a special dispensation for Moahmmed, he has unlimited women! How convenient, handy dandy Allah just issues another sura and Walla Mohammed can marry again. After Khadija died (he did not dare mess with her because she was powerful and rich) he goes wild. Mohammed raped women captured in his raids. What about when mohmmed visited his wife Hafsa, he lies to her and sends her off to see her father, and then he rapes Mariyah the slave maid. Hafsa comes back only to learn Mr. Prophet is bonking her maid. She makes a scene, to keep her quiet he promises he'll keep his little head checked. But he doesn't dose he? Look at the handy verse that suddenly pops up 66:1-5. What is this nonsense you believe in Victoria??
This Prophet of yours takes his son Zeid's wife too! People object but handy dandy Allah comes to the rescue again!!! Thereby banning and frowning upon adoptions for Muslims forever. How can one believe in such a vial person AND above all else claim him to be a prophet!
There’s plenty more but I'll stop unless you really want me to continue.

If the whole world converted to Christianity or became Jewish or Buddhists or even became Hindus the world would carry on and people would get along with one another. However that cannot be said about Islam, Islam polarizes people, first it polarizes Muslims against all non-Muslims. Then it is self destructive. Pakistan a Muslim country also has the second largest Muslim population in the world. In the absence of an external enemy they turn upon themselves. See the recent news, brother killing brother. There is a quote in the Bible that just about sums it all up beautifully. You are a smart person you know who “He” is referring to.

Genesis 16:12 "He will be as free and wild as an untamed donkey. He will fight with everyone, and everyone will fight with him. He will have conflicts with all his relatives."

hi arif-
you used the word tolerate, i used the word tolerance
so, actually,m you didnt use the word tolerance at all- to misuse it one way or the other

the complaints you had about the very word arent applicable to tolerance

the difference bewtween the words is toleration implies a superior position, authority or permission given-

tolerance does not contain these judgements

i dont have to accept something to agree it has a right to be expressed, or held by another as valuable

i, for instance, dont accept rigid literalist interpretations of any religious texts-

i do not accept them, make them my own, incorporate them into my own ideology-

i dont accept speaking in tongues-

i think it is actually a socially sanctioned insanity-
and delusional in the extreme
but i am patient (and tolerant) with people wo believe this

id say that your inabililty to accept my love of the Prophet(pbuh) and the value ive found in islam- is clouded by your own personal hatred- of same.

i dont even think it is that personal- but a sense of betrayal to the ideal youve experienced by some individuals who, if they were raised in america, would likely be the same kind of judgemental, off-center, imbalanced control freaks that you see in evangelical churches-

now ive certainly had my share of suffering at the hands of these kinds of people-

you have no idea-

but i dont hate them, or Jesus(ata) or christianity-
i realize how far they are from their own religion-

people look at america, and imagine that the bible, or christianity are some template for democracy, and freedom.

you can see some of the poor attmepts to correlate the 2 on these boards-

clearly, it never occurred to people to even question this, as they assumed it was inherent in christianity.

it is not , at all.
even in christianity, there was no call for the people of the nations to be a part of it- that is all inventions of paul-

Jesus(ata) himslef was very clear when asked about taking his message to th people of the nations (gentiles)

he said it was not for them, but he came ONLY for the lost sheep of the house of israel.

and if you think being one of the chosen people is an open club, and accepting of others, inclusive of others, democratic in any way-

i recommend you go to a synagogue and express an interest in judaism and a desire to convert, and see how readily you are "accepted".

as you progress don that road, you will realize at some point, that your conversion will not be really accepted
you my find a reform temple that is open and liberal-
but you will discover that your conversion is not accepted by all, everyhwere.

the same with christianity- if youre not trinitarian- (like jehovahs witnesses, mormons)
you will not be accpeted.
even if you ARE trinitarian, if youre a catholic, you will not be accepted by protestants.

as you may have noticed if you paid attention- the only verses anyone could find were the same ones from paul-

and applied specifically and ONLY to baptized christians-

hardly a template for equality-

and there is NOWHERE in the gospels, no where that Jesus(ata) states ANYWHERE anthing close to egalitariansim.

he even forbad what was allowed previously.

i have a cousin who is a beautiful intelligent woman- shes been a private secretary to richard mellon and an efficient accomplished woman.

she married the boy down the street who was her first boyfriend (if you can call it that- chaperoned boy friend)

hes been a bellboy at a hotel for 20 years, comes home, drinks beer all night and grunts a bit before passing out-

its not that hes a bad man, hes not- he just has the intelligence of a bag of hammers, and shes quite bright.

but theyre catholic, and simply dont get divorced.

despite the act that she cant sit in the same room as him, he knows she doesnt love him (actually cant stand his presence)

and shes a good and kind lady- but you cant hide these things forever-

but jesus(ata) said you cannot divorce,
so theyre yoked together unhappily until death claims one of them.

this isnt something you can argue around or away-
the only way to get around it is to actively and deliberately disobey the words of Jesus(ata)

on the other hand, in islam, when i encounter something that is counterintuitive- just doesnt make any sense-

i can research, and find out the core and reality of it- so far i have not been disappointed.

perhaps youve noticed that i never have anything negative to say about Jesus(ata), or Moses, or Krishna, or Buddha-
or their adherents or religions that sprang up after them-

i just found those philosophies insufficient for living in a social world-

believe me- if i met your uncle, he and i would have some disconnect-
but its possible hed never know it-

no one has ever changed their way of thinking by having their beliefs attacked-
that is my philosophy-

people only get defensive when theyre attacked (which is understandable) and cling more tightly to their ideas-

i didnt become muslim because i was pressured, or even knew any muslims-

it was the text itself, pure and unadluterated by the influences of peoples cultural additions that drew me-

people are as equal as the teeth of the comb-

that is antithetic in christiaity, where men are the head of women, and women have no rights at all before god and society- theyre the harbringers of sin to the world, and focus of the entrance of satan-
theyre the blamed victims that made us born in original disgrace-

well, ive gone on long enough-

o yes, all ive ever used was the gregorian calendar- so happy new year to you and yours too.
peace

i realize i didnt present the reasons i admire and rever Muhammad(pbuh) here
there is time

Victoria,
You say:
“please try and refrain from inserting such unecessary (and by association) derogatory comparisons-“

How do you suppose I can compare Mohammed? The acts that I have read about him in the hadith and what you choose to read make us see different men. I asked you, where do you get your references from that paint Mohammed as a saint? I can go to the same sources and see for myself. However the sources that I read about Mohammed and I showed you, there I see Mohammed as one worse than Hitler. It may be insulting to you but equally insulting to me is that you can revere such a person while I loath him.

Why did you cut and paste so much to explain the word tolerance to me? Did I not use it correctly in my sentence? Do you not see the difference between tolerance and acceptance?
Isn't it better for humans to accept than tolerate? Are you going to explain the etymology of acceptance to me now?

I hope you are aware that I do know and speak more than one language (not dialects) and English does not make the list. English to me is a technical language in this modern world.

Happy New Year, I know Muslims don't celebrate this Gregorian New Year but all the same I hope I am not insulting you by wishing you a happy and prosperous new year. If so I’ll take it back!

Arif

please try and refrain from inserting such unecessary (and by association) derogatory comparisons-

"Even Hitler may have said many good things but that does not make him a saint."

how can we have anything approaching a civil dialogue, if you preface it by implying a similarity between islam and hitler?

YOU SAID-
``````````````````````````
""one of my favorite made up sayings is the only thing i am truly intolerant of is intolerance"
I personally don't like the word tolerate, tolerating itself implies superiority of the tollerat(or).

well- im not thrilled with the word tolerate either-

which is why i didnt use it-

however, as you can see in definition number 2-
in the context of religion- it connotes respect and recognition - good things-

verb
1. put up with something or somebody unpleasant; "I cannot bear his constant criticism"; "The new secretary had to endure a lot of unprofessional remarks"; "he learned to tolerate the heat"; "She stuck out two years in a miserable marriage"
2. recognize and respect (rights and beliefs of others); "We must tolerate the religions of others"
3. medical term deleted
4. allow the presence of or allow (an activity) without opposing or prohibiting; "We don't allow dogs here"; "Children are not permitted beyond this point"; "We cannot tolerate smoking in the hospital" [syn: allow]

yes, one has to be in a position of authority or superiority to give permission-

here is the word i used-

tol·er·ance

–noun 1. a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward those whose opinions, practices, race, religion, nationality, etc., differ from one's own; freedom from bigotry.
2. a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward opinions and practices that differ from one's own.
3. interest in and concern for ideas, opinions, practices, etc., foreign to one's own; a LIBERAL UNDOGMATIC viewpoint.

and finally, ill let the dictionary itself define the subtleties and distinctions

—Synonyms 1, 2. patience, sufferance, forbearance; LIBERALITY, IMPARTIALITY, OPEN-MINDEDNESS.
Tolerance, toleration agree in allowing the right of something that one does not approve.

Tolerance SUGGESTS A LIBERAL SPIRIT spirit toward the views and actions of others: tolerance toward religious minorities.

Toleration implies the allowance or SUFFERANCE OF CONDUCT with which one is not in accord: toleration of graft.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

so, it remains one of my favorite original sayings.
peace

o- i have to go find that source of quote-
ill let you know- my husband is looking at me with eyes of hunger (tummy)

Victoria;
What sources do you get your quotes from, do you get them from the following sources besides the Koran? the Sahih Hadith(Bukhari, Muslim, Sunan Ab Dawud) the Sira(Ibn Ishaq, Tabari, Ibn Sa'd)? Please let us know; also when you quote something that Moahammed said please do provide the source. That way we the readers can know the source you quote from. Mohammed said a lot of nasty things I can quote from the sources I have mentioned above. Even Hitler may have said many good things but that does not make him a saint.
Also what you say here...
"one of my favorite made up sayings is the only thing i am truly intolerant of is intolerance"
I personally don't like the word tolerate, tolerating itself implies superiority of the tollerat(or).
One of my favorite leaders (a Muslim lady) was killed by your "other" Muslim friends. One band of Muslims claiming superiority to the other. How sad it is that after 1400 years Islam still cannot define itself.

I unequivocally and unconditionally condemn and revile these acts of terrorism and all acts of terrorsim done by deluded and vicious barbarians who claim they represent islam.

Council on American-Islamic Relations statement-

The “Not in the Name of Islam” petition states:

“We, the undersigned Muslims, wish to state clearly that those who commit acts of terror, murder and cruelty in the name of Islam are not only destroying innocent lives, but are also betraying the values of the faith they claim to represent. No injustice done to Muslims can ever justify the massacre of innocent people, and no act of terror will ever serve the cause of Islam. We repudiate and dissociate ourselves from any Muslim group or individual who commits such brutal and un-Islamic acts. We refuse to allow our faith to be held hostage by the criminal actions of a tiny minority acting outside the teachings of both the Quran and the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.”

Do you know what our Prophet, peace be upon him, told us? He repeated thrice, "He does not believe! He does not believe! He does not believe!" Who was he referring to? "That person whose neighbour does not feel safe from his evil."

As it states in the Quran: ‘Oh you who believe, stand up firmly for justice, as witnesses to God, even if it be against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be against rich or poor; for God can best protect both. Do not follow any passion, lest you not be just. And if you distort or decline to do justice, verily God is well-acquainted with all that you do.’” (Quran 4:135)

The day a "moderate" muslim turns in another muslim for building an bomb in their basement to put on a bus is the day I will believe that moderate muslims are not the enemy of America and the non-islamic world. Their silence in the face of the radicals who serve as the public face of their religion implies tacit approval. Come on, you want us to believe Islam is peaceful? How can we when the leaders of your religion preach hate and the conversion or death of all who don't submit to your mythical god?

well thank you (mostly)

one interesting, and i find somewhat unusual now fact is that i didnt know any muslims when i became one-

it occurred to me when i was reading the bible- i read the quran on my own- then bukhari and muslim hadeeths (about 6 big books)
before i ever encountered a muslim in real life

i really went into deep culture shock when i went to the mosque and started interacting with muslims (some)
(and it was a university mosque, and much more intellectually curious than most)

i just had the doctrine itself to draw on- and came without any cultural or traditional corruptions and their biases-

my mind was completely open, and only affected by---ideas- not people.

now, i had the great blessing of having access to one of the great minds of islam- dr amir ali, for 5 years i lived 3 blocks away from his education center next door to the muslim community center in chicago.

he was from karachi- married to an american woman for 50 years- and had straddled the wide divide between east and west quite comfortable, and without conflict in is soul.

ive been to mosques all over america, and in a way- i can understand your hatred of the islam you grew up with-

i also dislike intensely the misogynist, elitist and basically racist form of islam practiced by small tribal minds-
but theyre ignorant fools, without any real knowledge of their own religion-

sadly and blindly following the ways of their fathers (something specifically prohibited in the qu'ran, as a matter of fact, the qu'ran prohibits this- then exhorts muslims to read the quran themselves and come to their own conclusion)

trust me arif-
if id have been raised in your homleand- id have had to have completely rejected that bizarre bastardized, crystallized conceptualiztion of islam to come back and rediscover it in its pure state.

having been raised by a brilliant agnostic woman- my spiritual path has been completely of my own self determination- coupled with great inellectual scrutiny.

so i cant really say ive been "sold" anything.

but thanks for the intitial kind words- (ill choose to ignore the implication of weak-mindedness that followed)

i always say id have been stoned in the town square if i were born in some village somewhere

even when i entered elementary school- i was outraged at unfairness and injustice, and boycotted the other kids until they would allow the poor girl who smelled funny, had rotten teeth and poor clothes and unbrushed hair to play with us. (i even helped spread lice to the whole class because i let her play with my long hair every day as she sat behind me)

one of my favorite made up sayings is the only thing i am truly intolerant of is intolerance.

i wouldnt have fared well in the east at all

"really, there is no need to be insulting to one who has treated you with gentility and repsect."

You have and you are sincere and I know that. But you cannot imagine how I hate Islam to even think that a person can get sold on this hook line and sinker. I still respect you and even getting to like you even though you are a Muslim.

Arif

well arif, i wssnt an outsider but an avid bible student for more than 20 years-

so i dont have the luxury of just picking one sentence out and forcing it to fit apreconceived point i want to make-
i had to take the whole body in its context-
i noticed you said , lets look at
romans- but conveniently neglected to actually present it-

there is no where in those 3 verses that points to equality for all-
they are written for baptized christians and apply only to baptized christians-

ive never met eboo patel- and have my own reasoning processes which exptend over my life-

really, there is no need to be insulting to one who has treated you with gentility and repsect.

Ibrahim Mahfouz you asked me the following questions;
"Arif:
I read a post by Victoria where she challenged you to come with a quote in the Bible about equality. I thought I had answered that challenge in a different post i.e."America's Real Power". I don't know if you had answered her yet but I offer my quotes.
1. For equality among races;Romans 10:12 and Colossians 3:11
2.For equality of classes: Galatians3:8 and Colossians 3:11
3. For equality among genders:Galatians 3:28, 1Corinthians 11:11."

I did not bother because I know it would fall on deaf ears. Blind faith is a dangerous thing and to have blind faith in a false premise is even worse. Here we have a nice lady who was lied to by a conniving muslim like Eboo and has since never taken the time to question what lies she was once fed. She continues to build this iron wall around her one where reason will not penetrate. The quotes you show me are wonderful quotes.

Lets look at Romans 10:12 for example what wonderful and inviting words, If I were an outsider (and I am) and was listening to Romans 10:12 I really would stop and listen.
Now lets take this one from Gabriel’s buddy; O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque.
Now why would I care to listen to the second one? I would however if I were forced to, or if my tribe was massacred and village destroyed I would not only listen but also believe!!!
What drives people to call Sura 9:29 and others like it divine? There are those who believe that a Creator could say such words to his creation and those who preach it. I question the motives of those who teach such nonsense.

People who believe in words like these;
"in islam, the qu'ran states that before the judgement day- at some point in the unknown future, all people will be muslim."

and there are a billion of them, it is really a cause for alarm and concern. I would never ever want myself, my wife and children to ever have to submit to Islam. Not to a book like the Koran and not at all from a man who killed, raped, married a child, coveted his sons wife, coveted others wives, had slaves, had sex with slaves, fought wars, and above all else stole and worsened the Jewish/Christian faith. Mohammed bought nothing new to the world only misery and evil.

...more hate...
"abraham, adam Jesus(ata) Mary(may ALLAH bless her) all the prophets, are all muslim, all in submission to god-"

How do people have the audacity to say such things? Adam, Abraham, Jesus, Mary etc. were NEVER Muslims, they were Jews, they remain Jews they will always be Jews. Jesus was a reformer and he challenged his followers to think. Mohammed looted and above all else was a narcissist.

The problems blind faith brings with it...
"Muhammad(pbuh) gave us direction, and a practical way to please the god- to worship, to live in peace- not war- to determine our lives in a clean and uncoprrupted way-"

By fasting? pointing in a direction and praying five times a day? by performing Hajj? he never did this. How does a man who fought 60+ offensive wars tell his followers to live in peace?

In a few days Christians will be celebrating Christmas, they will celebrate life. They will celebrate light, Christians will celebrate the coming of their savior.

Just recently the Muslims celebrated DEATH! they killed/beheaded several million animals with their own hands and offered them to their god allah, like the savages of old. I hope we never ever have to submit to this religion that celebrates death with such joy.

MERRY CHRISTMAS CHRISTIANS!!!

*Abraham,adam Jesus(ata)Mary(may Allah bless her)all the prophets,are all muslims*
Yes,you are right.In that case,we should say *muslim* to Jew and *muslim* to christian.
Yes,in that case,all christians and Jews are muslims.

Dear sane posters,please stop the 5 years old child kidding.Please,stop this funny logic.

We should describe the concepts correctly.Muslim means submission to Allah,not God.*Adam Jesus(ata)* is an insult to Jesus.At first,you insult to Jesus and after you say *islam respects Jesus*.What is the islamic tenet about Trinity,Bible,Second Coming,Son of God.
Which *cotton princess* tale are telling ??
*No compulsion in islam*.Please,listen to your conscience voice when you write this.

i was answering a question by mr mahfouz-
who was attempting to answer a question i postulated.

mr mahfouz- no theologian ever interpreted it the way you are-
you can find piles and piles of books saying the opposite-
it is for christians- and the rest of unbaptized humanity is excluded-
id really like to see you go into a baptist church and try and say that-

and NOWHERE are women considered equal!
women are considered less in the bible-
they cannot speak, and MUST NOT be allowed to teach!!!!!

i didnt write the book-

mr mahfouz- where in your education did you learn that women are half of men?
this is mr mahfouz's particular rant-
weve already had this conversation- which, when he couldnt answer the questions- degenrated into predictable slander and rants against islam-

you already failed this argument on another page-
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/eboo_patel/2007/12/americas_real_power/all_comments.html

dec-8 12:06pm

actually the question you failed to answere there was , proving with scripture, the equality of women in the bible-
you never did find any scripture-

so, lets get back on topic-

k- im definitely not attmepting to show how bad another religion is-

degrading another adds nothing to my own enlightenment- it only degrades me.

so- back on topic- ive answered mr mahfouz- and we can keep on topic-

well,
i dont adhere to the personal philosophy of ahmadenijad- i am not really very versed in his ideology- im not shi'a

hajj is not a precursor to world domination-
it is a spiritual pilgrimage-

if ahmadenijad wants to try and politicize everything he comes in contact with-

that doesnt reflect on me, or islam or the mission of the Prophet(pbuh)

in islam, the qu'ran states that before the judgement day- at some point in the unknown future, all people will be muslim.

muslim means submission to the god-
abraham, adam Jesus(ata) Mary(may ALLAH bless her) all the prophets, are all muslim, all in submission to god-
by that token, all of creation is subject to the direction of ALLAH and in submission!

Muhammad(pbuh) gave us direction, and a practical way to please the god- to worship, to live in peace- not war- to determine our lives in a clean and uncoprrupted way-

ok, you dont want to do that?
fine-there is no compulsion in religion!

go your way, as the qu'ran instructs us wisely-
you to your beliefs, and me to mine.

not to argue- but let the god see into our respective hearts and decide who is serving him/her, and who is not.
there can be no coercion of the heart- no enforcement of the body to mouth words not believed-
no compulsion-

ahmadinejad doesnt seem to understand this well-
he wants to force things- to suit his own construction-
maybe he believes HE is the mahdi?
maybe he has a messianic complex!

doesnt affect my prayers, actions or beliefs.

muslims are not the only ones who believe in a world that will become submitted to the god-
however- they are the ones who believe that it only comes from inner change- not outward, and everyone- is already in submission to the laws and will fo ALLAH_ whether they acknowledge it or not-
and - the metaphorical hand of the god cannot be forced!
for instance-
the zionists colonialists were all atheists-
they have tried to convince the world that israel belongs to them from a divine deed issued 6,000 years ago-
but religious jews know that they have to wait for the messiah to come to return from their diaspora.

just lke muslims know all will be arranged by ALLAH-
and to try and "force" the hand of the god- to use a personifying metaphor-
is unislamic- is against the will of the god-

just as the zionists are trying to force g-d's hand- and jump the gun by going ahead with teir own prsonal plans to regain judah-

only people with a very sporadic knowledge of scripture buy this story-
but that included mostly everyone.(and this is an important aspect- it is precisely this superfical knowledge which enables their agenda)

people doing what others tell them, not becuase they have read it, digested it, comprehended it themselves- but because they are too lazy to find out, and let others lead them.(and this is an important aspect- it is precisely this superfical knowledge which enables their agenda)

the bible doesnt say israel will be taken by the jewish people by political means- but by the will of god-(after the messiah comes and leads them there)

also- an amazing thing, is that once the city of the christian city of god is built- ALL NON-CHRISTANS WILL BE EITHER CONVERTED OR KILLED!!!!
revelations is pretty clear about this-

in jewish doctrine- their own city of g-d will mean the removal of all non-jews.

so i dont know what kind of uneasy alliance must exist between them, when they are looking at each other to accomplish an end(retaking of israel) while at the same time plotting to rid each other of each other when the end is accomplished-

but that is what it is.

now you mentioned a "small" mormon temple.
the temple of mormons in salt lake city is by no means small- and the ENTIRE city is overtaken by mormons in every aspect of living-

to enter mainstream society there and partake and beniefit from that society- one must be mormon.

and temples all over america are closed to the general public.

jerusalem has been taken over- it s the 3rd most revered site i islam-
but even the people who were born there cannot even enter the ENTIRE COUNTRY!

are you also petitioning as vigorously for the right of return of the millions of palestinians?

if your answer is no, then your mission seems somewhat dwarfed by your own reasoning.

if you can find some christian concepts in what ive said, id love to see them.

(maybe you can justify manifest destiny? the bible did!)

so, respect given is respect received- if you want to go to hajj- go-

but people ALSO have a right to worship unmolested by those with disruptive or even malicious intentions, don't they?

peace

Here we go again. We are talking about Islam and the muslim instead of addressing the questions asked will drag other religions to show how terrible they are. So what? What kind of an argument is that?

Ahmedinejad is saying that Hajj rituals support the main aim of Muhammad's message and that is of world domination. That is the Pan Islamic rule under one Calipha ... the command to Muhammad from Allah. That is what that Muslim is say what Hajj means.

Victoria:
Re; deja vu
"the text you offered is specifically and only applicable to the baptized Christian community in that historical period-". That is what you are saying.
Ok let us for the sake of argument grant that you are correct. That means Christian women and Christian men are equal. That is still better than the formula in your religion which in the best of cases equates a Muslim woman to half a Muslim man. If Christianity is exclusive, as you claim, let us see how it treats the women and men who are not Christians? Is there any indication that a predominantly Christian country has a discriminatory policy such as maybe levying higher taxes on its non-Christian citizens? Or maybe has a law that prohibits the building of houses of worship to non-Christians? Or maybe a law that requires non Christians to not ride a horse? Or carry a weapon? Or visit a certain part of the country? If yes, then it must be something that Jesus had ordered since you asserted to Arif that Christians consider the Bible the literal word of God and they follow it literally. (Argue about Deuteronomy with a Jewish Rabbi. Christians follow the teaching of Jesus). You seem to be fairly familiar with the Bible, can you find a quote attributed to Jesus that could be construed as exhorting those “baptized” to inflict damage or even ostracize those who are “not baptized”? If not then when Jesus said ……there is not male or female… He meant equality for ALL and not only to the baptized. That is HOW CHRISTIANS INTERPRET IT; that and not your interpretation, is what really counts. Otherwise Christians would have discriminatory laws as those above ones that the second Caliph, Omar, institutionalized when his armies pillaged the Near East and North Africa. Some of those laws are in effect till this day(2007). He evidently distilled those rules from the Quran and the sayings of his friend and son in law, the "Messenger of Allah".

deja vu mr mahfouz-
http://www.newadvent.org/bible/

COLOSSIANS 3:11

3:1. Therefore if you be risen with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is sitting at the right hand of God.

3:2. Mind the things that are above, not the things that are upon the earth.

3:3. For you are dead: and your life is hid with Christ in God.

3:4. When Christ shall appear, who is your life, then you also shall appear with him in glory.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(V) pretty clearly specifically to christians- if that isnt clear enough-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
3:5. Mortify therefore your members which are
upon the earth: fornication, uncleanness lust, evil concupiscence and covetousness, which is the service of idols.

3:6. For which things the wrath of God cometh upon the children of unbelief.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(V) i left these in for K

3:10. And putting on the new, him who is renewed unto knowledge, according to the image of him that created him.

3:11. Where there is neither Gentile nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian nor Scythian, bond nor free. BUT CHRIST IS ALL AND IN ALL.
3:12. Put ye on therefore, as the ELECT of God, holy and beloved, the bowels of mercy, benignity, humility, modesty, patience:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(v) SO MUCH FOR THE REST OF HUMANITY

3:15. And let the peace of Christ rejoice in your hearts, wherein also you are called in one body: and be ye thankful.
3:17. All whatsoever you do in word or in work, do ALL IN THE NAME of the Lord Jesus Christ, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

3:22. Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh: not serving to the eye, as pleasing men: but in simplicity of heart, fearing God.

********************************************

ROMANS 10:12

10:4 For the end of the law is Christ: unto justice to everyone that believeth.

10:9. For if thou confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in thy heart that God hath raised him up from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

save no man. St. Matt. 7.21.

10:10. For, with the heart, we believe unto justice: but, with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

MATTHEW 7:21. Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

10:11. For the scripture saith: Whosoever BELIEVETH IN HIM shall not be confounded.

10:12. For there is no distinction of the Jew and the Greek: for the same is Lord over all, rich unto all that CALL UPON HIM.

10:13. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
10:14. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? Or how shall they believe him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
***************************************
(V) once again, pretty clearly aundeniably applicable only to christians and believers in christ
************************************
GALATIANS 2:28

26. For you are all the children of God, by faith in Christ Jesus.

3:27. For as many of you as have been baptized in Christ have put on Christ.

3:28. There is neither Jew nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor female. For YOU are ALL ONE IN CHRIST Jesus.

3:29. And if you be Christ's, then are you the seed of Abraham, heirs according to the promise.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*******************************

so again, applicable specifically to those who are one in christ etc...etc...

DEFINITELY IN NO WAY APPLICABLE TO ALL OF MANKIND-

and if you are pauline (which i never really was) these may have value-
however- i always found a real disconnect with paul and his writings and the words of Jesus(ata) in the bible-

this is why its always important to keep things in context-
out of context things get so easily misunderstood-

peace- i hope everyone isnt too distracted by this-
back on topic?

how is what ahmadinejad said relevant to , well, anything K?

Arif:
I read a post by Victoria where she challenged you to come with a quote in the Bible about equality. I thought I had answered that challenge in a different post i.e."America's Real Power". I don't know if you had answered her yet but I offer my quotes.
1. For equality among races;Romans 10:12 and Colossians 3:11
2.For equality of classes: Galatians3:8 and Colossians 3:11
3. For equality among genders:Galatians 3:28, 1Corinthians 11:11.

http://www2.irna.com/en/news/view/line-20/0712207208004919.htm

Now of course the president of Iran would not know anything about Hajj and what it means.

"President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said here Wednesday on Al-Adha Eid Day in Saudi Arabia philosophy of Haj can be defined merely through considering Islam's aim at establishment of a global government.

President Ahmadinejad who had attended the gathering of Iranian Haj pilgrims at the Supreme Leader's Mecca Headquarter focused in his address over the significance of major Haj rituals, the philosophy behind them, and their ultimate objectives.

He said, "If we would delete the ultimate objective of establishing a global system from the Haj rituals, the remainder would be deeds devoid of a soul."

And the position of the kafirs in this global system is there for all to see in the 1400 years of Islamic history.

i think youve been missing the larger issues here k-

im sorry for personal affronts to your person or people you know wherever you come from-

the hajj is still the largest group of people representative of every hue and corner of the world to assemble peaceably and is a remarkable and beautiful expression of the diversity and inclusiveness of islam.

now you mentioned a "small" mormon temple.
the temple of mormons in salt lake city is by no means small- and the ENTIRE city is overtaken by mormons in every aspect of living-

to enter mainstream society there and partake and beniefit from that soicety- one must be mormon.

and temples all over america are closed to the general public.

jerusalem has been taken over- it s the 3rd most revered site i islam-
but even the people who were born there cannot even enter the ENTIRE COUNTRY!

are you also petitioning as vigorously for the right of return of the millions of palestinians?

if your answer is no, then your mission seems somewhat dwarfed by your own reasoning.

im not making any assumptions about you though- (despite your assumption about my islamo-christicism-whatever that is)

if you can find some christian concepts in what ive said, id love to see them.

possibly you are confusing my western upbringing, and its overlap into my philosophy(of which there is no incongruity) with christianity?

heres a mission for you- show me where equality of people exists in the bible-

it doesnt. at all. anywhere. i know. ive searched and searched.
actually- it is the opposite and very exclusivist in many ways

(maybe you can justify manifest destiny? the bible did!)

so, respect given is respect received- if you want to go to hajj- go-

but people ALSO have a right to worship unmolested by those with unclean intentions, don't they?

im not apologizing for the actions of other muslims, but am still standing by the right of muslims to perform hajj as a unified body in safety
peace, im sorry i wont be able to get bakc now for your response , but when i do ill certainly give it consideration.

Victoria,
You may believe whatever you want to, but it seems any evidence presented to you will not make you admit that Martin Luther Kings movement and the whole Hajj experience are absolutely NOT related.
One is bigoted and Muslim-centric (Hajj) while the other was an American movement centered toward equality and justice for ALL. Eboo simply lied when he made that claim; you fail to convince us otherwise. You have failed to tell us so far why a Non-Muslim is filthy in the eyes of Mohammed’s Allah and why only a Muslim can enter the Sacred Mosque. You fail to tell us why Mohammed’s Allah uses such ugly words in his instructions to mankind.

Since Mohammed snatched Makah it has been off limits and out of bounds for non-Muslims a place that once welcomed EVERYONE!

You continuously ask, "why would kafirs want to go to hajj?”

Well I would like to go there, I was there as a baby and now as a Kafir I want to see what drove my parents to take me there, however I would simply want to go there as a Kafir, a non-Muslim, a Najis;

I want it so everyone knows I am a Non-Muslim. I am willing to wear a yellow shirt to do that too. My question to you is this; since I am not interested in disruption and simply observation can this be possible?

You say;
"youre angry because people who are not muslims cannot partake in an islamic religious pilgrimage?"

Actually we know why non-Muslims/other humans are not allowed into Makah, it’s you will not admit that Mohammed and his side-kick Allah did not want it to be so. So far you haven’t done a good job.

Also Victoia, most of what you posted to me makes no sense, however to this ..."and both of you-
stop confusing the actions of people with the doctrine of the religion"
All along we are showing you that Muslim behavior is directly proportional to what Islam teaches. Other than presenting personal experiences and correlating them to Islamic scripture what else can one do to make you believe in this simple fact?

k- it doesnt say filthy-
it says unclean-
filthy is your own mischaracterization and overly dramatic statement-

"Your Allah curses his own creation, and considers the majority of his own creation FILTHY. That is not what any government action. That is straight from the Quran."

"YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are UNCLEAN; so let them not, after this YEAR OF THEIRS, approach the Sacred Mosque."

the year in question is the year after Muhammad(pbuh) came to Mecca to perform hajj, and made the treaty with the meccans to COME BACK THE NEXT YEAR.

unclean and filthy are 2 very different concepts

in hinduism, dalits (untouchables) are UNCLEAN

in judaism, the disbleievers approaching the holy of holies are UNCLEAN

in falun dafa (qi gong) ALL OF HUMANITY is covered in excrement and considered FILTHY compared to the supreme being

see the difference?

if you go to a native american sweat tent, your VERY THOUGHTS are regulated as clean and positive or unclean and negative- and unwelcome if they are unclean.

even the POPE when he went to syria and prayed in the mosque, and the new pope when he prayed in turkey- respected the beliefs of people in the place he was visiting.

so what exactly are you petitioning for?
do you want to go to hajj and say surreptitious non- muslim prayers?

how can you expect to be respected when you seem to have respect for anyone but muslims?

while you argue (and need to exaggerate to do so) abut the inequality of burial rights of non-muslims in mecca-(who but a muslim wants to be bureid in mecca? in islam, you are SUPPOSED to be buried where you die)

can you or i be buried in israel?

can ANY palestinians RETURN TO THEIR OWN HOMELAND WHILE THEY ARE ALIVE?

also, kafirs ALREADY KNOW ABOUT ISLAM-

so there is no need for you to inform them of anything-
if they dont kow about islam THEY ARE NOT KAFIRS.

a subtley, even though you claim to be one- that continues to escape you.

also, your mission is a very negative and sad one.

it adds nothing to anyone- edifys no one- and frankly- without anger catalyzing it- will wither.

as for the ismailis being biased against-
bias and prejudice in any aspect is always dysfunctional and anti-human.

the worldwide conference of muslims containing over 500 scholars from every school of islam - has defined ismailis as being part of the ummah of islam.

i invite you to modernize your vision of islam with the rest of the world-

http://ammanmessage.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=97

you have to navigate through it on your own- there is much that will likely surprise and encourage you

peace

Hey Ross,
That first hand account of women getting stoned to death is really sickening. I almost threw up in disgust. I knew about the barbarity of Islam before but this is anything beyond even my imagination. These animals are sick ( I am sorry if I insulted any animals here). They will kill us all.

Problem with Islam is not only discrimination against non-Muslims to live in their 50 plus exclusive Islamic nations or visit the holy sites, but the daily, senseless mass murders of innocent lives

Victoria,

It is you who are being blind to what I have shown you. Your Allah curses his own creation, and considers the majority of his own creation filthy. That is not what any government action. That is straight from the Quran. That is the reason why Kafirs are not allowed to enter two entire cities and not only a small temple of Mormons. That is the reason why Ayatolla Sistani refused to meet with the filthy kafirs. It is the reason why filthy kafirs are not allowed to say their prayers in the Hijaz. The bigotry and the supremacist attitude is built into the very doctrines of Allah's message and that is what you are desperately trying to deny.

You confuse anger with resolve. I am determined to educate the Kafirs about Islam and show them the facts that the lies of the Allah's followers hide from them. You example of skin heads and KKK are spurious. No one but no one bans the KKK from an entire city. It is not only Hajj is it? Kafirs are not banned only during the period of Hajj, but year around all the time. Why? What does being in the city of Mecca 6 months away from Hajj have anything to do with Hajj? Why cannot the kafirs not be buried in Saudi Arabia. Millions of Kafirs work there but they cannot say their prayers? And you are trying to justify this blatant bigotry? Is that a surprise to me? No, for I know what following Allah does to the human brain.

again k, you are mixing actions of governments with doctrine of islam-

so would you also support the kkks right to go to AME churches and disrupt them?
or skinheads to show up at the wailing wall?

youre angry because people who are not muslims cannot partake in an islamic religious pilgrimage?

should i lobby mormons to allow me into their sanctuaries?

there are many injustices in the world-
right now im watching protestors in louisiana being tasered and pepper sprayed because they want housing.

we have rendition, cia tapes being destroyed on torture, the ballon lending industry crumbling-

our own kids being shipped off to the ME-

there are amny issues to be outraged about

so why is it important to you that non-muslims go to hajj?

and why do you want such 'freedoms'?

saudi arabia is a kingdom-
if you really know your qu'ran (ive seen no evidence yet)
you also know that no government headed by a king is without corruption

i think you dont really care about non-muslims going to hajj-
(why in the world wuld they WANT to?)
but youre venting your own angers for your own issues

your entire deconstruction of islam is that non-muslims cant go to hajj?

if you get to some doctrine of substance- go for it-

but all youve come up with is critiques of actions of people
you cannot make the distinction between doctrinal advocacy and corrupt action?

i have great doubt as to your claims of being an ex-muslim as you didnt even know what a kafir is.

well, no actually it didnt answer the question-
again, why would kafirs want to go to hajj?

"It is reflected in how kafirs are treated for Hajj. The Kafirs here need to understand that and that is why I bring it up."

Victoria,

I thought I had answered and I did not think the questions you ask need to be answered. It says more that you are asking them so here are the answers.

Does one have to be black to object to discrimination against blacks?

Does one have to be jewish to object to Nazi carting off the jews?

Does one have to be a woman to object to predatory sexual behavior?

Your Allah clearly finds most of his own creation filth and he says so. His followers clearly take that injunction to heart and discriminate against most of humanity. If they were really in power around the world these actions would translate to a lot more misery for those who do not follow your Allah. The treatment of the kafirs in countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh, Malaysia, Egypt, Iraq, Iran, Saudia Arabia, Sudan, Nigeria, etc. etc. are documented and can be read by anyone. The discrimination is not peculiar to those countries. It is reflected in how kafirs are treated for Hajj. The Kafirs here need to understand that and that is why I bring it up.

I have been hadj twice in my life. I can still go to hadj if I choose to do so.

I hope that answers your questions.

Ismael(ismaili comes from Ismael) was the eldest son of Cafer Sadek and Ismael was a *wine drinker*.The most famous ismaili was Aga Khan.His dad was Aly Khan who was a MI5 agent.

Hassan Sabbah(1034-1124)The ismaili commander of hashshas smoker thugs at Alamut castle.They were also called *assassins*.English word *assassinate* comes from *assassin*.Alamut had been taken by the great commander Genghis Khan.

saying the ban is mentioned is NOT saying it is the reason for the ban-
as it is not-

back to my question k-

why is it upsetting to you that non-muslims cannot visit the holiest sites of muslims?

do you have some desire to go there, and why?

im not going to visit a mormon temple and complain that im not allowed in.
im not interested in going in, to be honest.

there are many places on the planet that are closed to non-believers-
i cant go to jerusalem and go to the wall- i would be stopped-
but i dont want to go there so, its a non-issue for me.

if you dont like islam, and muslims- why would you want to go there?
and if you dont want to go there, why would you complain about it?

do you want the right to go there to incite problems? criticize? inflame? disrupt?

and why should such a right or intention be valid anyway?

its not- people have a right to protect themselves and provide a safe atmosphere when they are in prayer and vulnerable.

im not going to go into a hindu temple(and ive been to many) and start insulting people-
ive gone with respect, reverence and a desire to learn and grow and understand my fellow humans-

clearly, you wouldnt want to go to worship-which is the only reason for going to hajj-

Hey Eboo, why haven't you told us about this? IS there something else you have not told us?

From Amil Imani website regarding moderate muslims vs jihadists:

Humanity has suffered horrific wars in the past. Yet, the present multi-form and multi-front war waged by Islamists has the potential of inflicting more suffering and destroying more lives than ever before. Ruthless Islamic forces are advancing rapidly in their conquests while those of freedom are acquiescing and retreating. Before long, Islamism is poised to achieve its Allah-mandated goal of cleansing the earth of all non-Muslims. Any and all means and weapons are to be enlisted in the service of this final holy war that aims to establish the Islamic Ummeh.
Is “Moderate Islam” an illusion? Moderate Islam is a wedge that will jam open the door to Jihad, and "evil will triumph when good Muslims do nothing." The great majority of Muslims are not adherents of the radical line. Yet, because the Islamists wage their war under the name of Islam, they receive immense direct and indirect support from the rank-and-file ordinary Muslims. It is this support of moderate Muslims that keeps the Jihadists alive. And it is the Jihadists who intend to show no mercy to any and all who do not share their theology, be they Muslims or not.

For the record, all Muslims, moderates, radicals, Shiite, Sunnis and other sects and sub-sects of Islam are in unanimous agreement that the Quran is the word of “Allah.” All Muslims are also in agreement that “Allah” spoke through the Angel Gabriel to Muhammad. Allah declares, “The book is not to be doubted."

To be a loyal and faithful Muslim, one must adhere to and perform many rituals, as specified in the Quran by Allah and the Hadiths/Sunna, every waking moment of his entire life. Disobeying these rituals does not make one a moderate Muslim, but rather it would make him a non-Muslim, facing an uncertain future.

[They who deny the Quran]: "They have incurred Allah's most inexorable wrath. An ignominious punishment awaits the unbelievers..." Quran 2:89

“If you doubt what We have revealed to Our servant, produce one chapter comparable to it. Call upon your idols to assist you, if what you say be true. But if you fail (as you are sure to fail) then guard yourselves against the Fire whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the unbelievers. Quran 2:23-5

“Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate.” Quran 9:73

"That which is revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase the wickedness and unbelief of many among them. But do not grieve for the unbelievers" Quran (5:69).

The jihadists have searched the scripture and have selectively chosen those statements and precedents that they could use to legitimize their violent and primitive agenda. The Jihadists, for instance, claim that the Quran itself urges them to make jihad, “jahedoo fee sabeil-u-llah,” (make jihad for the cause of Allah.) The word “jihad” has at least two vastly different meanings. It means exertion. It also stands for making war, and it is the latter that the jihadists invoke as their mandate.

While the so-called moderate Muslims are generally silent, either out of fear, lack of organization, or apathy, the Islamists work around the clock and around the world to further their agenda. Hardly a week passes without a Grand Mufti or an Ayatollah issuing pronouncements in support of radical Islam. The rank-and-file Islamist clergy, for their part, transmit these fatwas and edicts to their flocks in mosques and hammer them into the minds of impressionable children in madressehs. Through this grassroots process, radical Islam is recruiting greater and greater numbers of adherents. On the one hand, the Islamists engage in acts of violence to disrupt the functioning of societies, while on the other they cleverly exploit the freedom they enjoy in non-Islamic lands to subvert them from within.

Issuing death threats and finishing the job are part of the modus operandi of the Islamists who disagree with them. It is not surprising that Salman Rushdie's "Satanic Verses" received a fatwa because it appeared to mock Muhammad.

The Iranian historian, Ahmad Kasravi, on March 11, 1946, while being tried on charges of "slander against Islam," was shot to death along with one of his asssitants in open court in Tehran by followers of Navvab Safavi, a Shi'a extremist cleric who had founded a terrorist organization called the Fadayan-e Islam (literally Devotees of Islam).

The Egyptian novelist Naguib Mahfouz was stabbed because one of his books was thought to be sacrilegious. And when the Arab scholar Suliman Bashear argued that Islam developed as a religion gradually rather than emerging fully formed from the mouth of the Prophet, he was injured after being thrown from a second- story window by his students at the University of Nablus in the West Bank. Even many broad-minded liberal Muslims become upset when the historical veracity and authenticity of the Quran is questioned.

Dutch filmmaker Theo Van Gogh was killed November 2, 2004, by a 26-year-old extremist Muslim of Dutch-Moroccan descent for creating a 10-minute movie Submission. The movie deals with the topic of violence against women in Islamic societies. The voices of the moderate Muslims have again been effectively silenced.

When Anwar-as-Sadat signed the peace agreement with Israel in 1979; four assassins from the Muslim Brotherhood assassinated him in September, 1981.

"Allah is our objective. The Prophet is our leader. Qur'an is our law. Jihad is our way. Dying in the way of Allah is our highest hope."—Muslim Brotherhood

“During the Muslim Brothers' seventy-plus years of existence, there have been cycles of growth, followed by divisions into factions, including clandestine financial networks, and violent jihad groups, such as al-Jihad and al-Gama'at al-Islamiyya in Egypt, HAMAS in Palestine and mujahideen and Al-Qaida groups in Afghanistan.”

The mainstream American media continues to indulge in the fantasy that “radical Islam” can be reformed by everybody realizing that we are at war with this minority of devils. They are Islam revisionists because they think all the “bad stuff” in the Quran was inserted there after Muhammad’s death. Naturally, they are vague on this point, as to precisely which suras were ex-post.

Presently, fanatical Islam is lashing out with mad fury before its own final demise. The “infidel” world has been complicit in the surge of Islamism through its mistakes, complacency, and greed.

Unfortunately, even some Islam-realists fall short. When they are put in front of the camera, they refuse to acknowledge that it is Islam that is the source of evil, so they resort to a redundant phrase of how “moderates” can reclaim the faith. The whole thing is truly bizarre. I have yet to hear, whenever a moderate Muslim is asked about the true nature of Islam, ‘Hold on here! I do not agree with your revisionist thinking. I am an Islam-realist. We believe Islam is in and of itself a religion of evil, and I declare it, not from the view of a particular religious dogma, but from a humanistic and common sense definition of morality, not because of what some belief was inserted into the Quran but because of:

1_What Muhammad said that remains unabrogated.
2_What Muhammad did (and said while he was doing it).
3_What Muhammad did not say or command or support that is good.
4_ What Muslim consensus has been for every century afterwards.
5_What the governing code of Muslim terrorists is today.’

Islam is, therefore, in total, universally, and innately evil.
It actively encourages some of the most debased, inhumane treatment of people known to man, regardless of which dogma you compare it to (religious or secular).

While I desire freedom in Iran, I am a committed anti-Islamist and anti-communist in general. My beliefs have matured over the years. I now think that God has a set of values that are absolutely right and good, rebellion against which is wrong (sinful), and about which the commitment to deceive others is evil, as is the commitment to deny the existence of anything absolutely good or bad.

I believe communism is an expression of materialist naturalist philosophy that is atheistic, representing a desire by man to dominate both nature and man. To me, it is Satan’s “denial” play...that there is no God. But Satan works in multiple theaters simultaneously. I believe Islam is Satan’s chief “deception” play. Rather than deny God exists, it asserts that God does in fact exist, but that God does not desire that men worship out of love or free will, but through rote, fear, and guilt, and through the sins of pride, envy, and chauvinism.

It is a mentality of enslavement that drives Islam...”submission” in which man subdues other men in order to establish a kingdom of oppression and hatred on earth. Both atheism/materialism and Islam appear as contradictions with respect to each other, but when you peel away the veneer of their pretense, you see that their aims are the same. Fascism is fascism.

Dr. M. Zuhdi Jasser, a former U.S. Navy Lieutenant Commander and an American devout Muslim wrote in an article (Islamism, not Islam is the Problem): “Most should understand that strategically, identifying ‘Islam as the problem,’ immediately alienates upwards of one quarter of the world’s population and dismisses our most powerful weapon against the militant Islamists—the mantle of religion and the pulpit of moderate Muslims who can retake our faith from the Islamists.”

Well, of course it does. Shaming the devil incites the devil, calling the USSR an “evil empire” did not win Ronald Reagan points for diplomacy, but nonetheless, it was an evil empire. Calling Nazis evil did not help endear the Germans to the Americans either, but they were slaughtering the Poles down to the last child. This is not a reason to be restrained in advocating the removal of evil.

This is also why liberal appeasers in 1938, who refused to call Hitler “evil,” got the world into so much trouble by creating a similar confused intellectual forum about the Nazis. They tried to build bridges to the “moderate” Nazis; they lectured clear thinkers about the dangers of inciting German hatred by pointing out the truth. They accused conservatives of being “just as fascist” as the Nazis; they sent ambassadors and made treaties and trusted that the moderates would come out and “reform” their zealous leadership. And they were wrong.

Dr. Jasser: “The process of theological renewal and interpretation in the light of modern day thought—ijtihad—as it is known in Islam is in many ways hundreds of years behind Western enlightenment today arrested around the 15th century. This process can either be facilitated by non-Muslims or hindered by the belief that it is impossible.”

This author betrays any knowledge of western enlightenment and its causes. He also presupposes a process of change that simply does not exist in the scripture of Islam, as defined in the Qur’anic codex. In short, he’s making this all up. Islam is a fully hardened religion because that is how Muhammad configured it. You can’t build an empire from slaughter and violence by making your ethics variable. Would you now have us believe you think Muhammad was a fool?

Dr. Jasser: “the majority voices in the middle, the non-Islamist and anti-Islamist Muslims, who understand the problem, have to be on the frontlines. They cannot be on the frontlines in an ideological battle being waged that demonizes the morality of the faith of Islam and its founder, the Prophet Mohammed.”

Opponents of Islamism demonize Islam with Muhammad’s own words and deeds. You cannot be a serial murderer and complain that it is unfair for the DA to constantly harp about all those people you killed!

He continues: “We cannot win this war only on the battlefield.”

Yes, but tell that to the Viennese who in 1632 defeated the marauding Muslims to save Christian Europe from slaughter and annihilation. Explain that to the Sudanese Christians of 2007. How about the Coptic Christians in Egypt? Does anyone know where all the Christians and Hindus in Pakistan went? Ask the French and Spanish how Charlemagne and Castile unceremoniously removed the Moors from Spain and France. And what happened in 1948, the day Israel was legally declared a nation? Oh, the battlefield is an ugly place, but it seems to have been the only way militant Islam has been repulsed. Most loving Christians believe that “love conquers all.” Well, I have news for you too, love does not conquer Islam.

Dr. Jasser: “In debate, it can become easy to lose the focus of the argument when resorting to criticism based on identity rather than on ideology. For example, so many Islamists locally and nationally resort to attempting to demonize me as an individual rather than deal with my anti-Islamist ideas as a Muslim and as an American. Our Islamist enemy dreams about uniting all Muslims under one nation—the transnational Muslim ummah.”

This is exactly as Muhammad desired: “Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): ‘I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.” Quran 8.012

Also, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 220: Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand." Abu Huraira added: Allah's Apostle has left the world and now you, people, are bringing out those treasures (i.e. the Prophet did not benefit by them, but Allah wants Islam to prevail through war and intimidation).

4:162b Muhammad said, "My livelihood is under the shade of my spear, and he who disobeys my orders will be humiliated by paying Jizya." ["Jizya" is the poll tax paid by subjugated peoples in return for the protection of the Islamic government.]

4:196 Mohammad said, "I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, ‘None has the right to be worshiped but Allah,’ and whoever says, ‘None has the right to be worshiped by Allah,’ his life and property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah (either to punish him or to forgive him.)"

Dr. Jasser: “But academically, when dealing with the faith of one-quarter of the world, and with its history, a central morality of individual Islam (the personal character of most Muslims) has generally demonstrated synergy with Judaism and Christianity.”

Synergy? You mean like this: “O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.” Quran 5.051

[From Muhammad the Messenger of Allâh to Negus, king of Abyssinia (Ethiopia): "Peace be upon him who follows the Guidance. I am grateful to Allah, there is no god but Him, and I bear witness that Jesus son of Mary was no more than a spirit created by Him, and His word («Be!» - and he was) which He bestowed on Mary, the Virgin, the good, the pure, so that she conceived Jesus. Allah created Him as He created Adam by His Hand. I call you to worship Allah Alone, and not to associate any partner with Him and (I call you) to His obedience and to follow me and to believe in that which was revealed to me, for I am the Messenger of Allah. I invite you and your men to Allah, the Exalted. I bear witness that I have communicated my message. I invite you to listen and accept my advice. Peace be upon him who follows true guidance.”]

Christ made it a particular point of foundation 600 years before Muhammad when he said, “love thy enemy”... in return 600 years later, Muhammad said:

“O ye who believe! Retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the murdered; the freeman for the freeman, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female. And for him who is forgiven somewhat by his (injured) brother, prosecution according to usage and payment unto him in kindness. This is alleviation and a mercy from your Lord. He who transgresseth after this will have a painful doom.” Quran 2.178

When Christ specifically said, “let he who is without sin cast the first stone; forgive as my father has forgiven you.” Doesn’t sound too “synergistic” to me, dear Doctor. Or how about this: “Thou shalt not murder.” When Muhammad said: “Fight (in wars of aggression) those who believe not in Allah nor the Last day, nor hold the forbidden (that) which hath been forbidden by Allah and his messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission. And feel themselves subdued.” Quran 9:29

But before we set aside the emotionally-exciting comparison notion to Hitler, let’s compare which doctrine is the more instructive to violence and oppression, Nazi-ism or Islam. And in conducting a rational inspection, what we find is not whether Islam should be compared to Hitler, but that Hitler never got out of the minor Leagues, whereas Islam is truly a major League...all-star team of depravity.

Here’s Jihad’s legacy since the very early days of Medina, when the prophet of Islam went on an eternal rampage of bloodlust throughout the world, and based his religion on the utter destruction of every other belief system through force and fraud:

"Jihad destroyed a Christian Middle East and a Christian North Africa. Soon it was the fate of the Persian Zoroastrian and the Hindu to be the victims of jihad. The history of political Islam is the destruction of Christianity in the Middle East, Egypt, Turkey and North Africa. Half of Christianity was lost. Before Islam, North Africa was the southern part of Europe (part of the Roman Empire). Around 60 million Christians were slaughtered during the jihadic conquest. Half of the glorious Hindu civilization was annihilated and 80 million Hindus killed. The first Western Buddhists were the Greeks descended from Alexander the Great's army in what is now Afghanistan. Jihad destroyed all of Buddhism along the silk route. About 10 million Buddhists died. The conquest of Buddhism is the practical result of pacifism. Zoroastrianism was eliminated from Persia. The Jews became permanent dhimmis throughout Islam. In Africa over 120 million Christians and animists have died over the last 1400 years of jihad. Approximately 270 million nonbelievers died over the last 1400 years for the glory of political Islam. These are the Tears of Jihad which are not taught in any school." -- Jamie Glazov, 2007

Let’s see.

I have asserted in the past there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim. This truth is not escaping intellectual blogs because politically correct media cannot bring themselves to rank religions or admit that some things are truly good or bad. They do not want to offend their liberal or Islamic audiences. But in this great argument, they are way behind the curve. The people are anxious for the truth. The people must know the truth so that they can defend themselves against a deadly and powerful adversary.

I believe this is the most important argument facing us right now, but as long as fence-sitters feel capable of condemning “all forms of extremism” unchecked, most people will not take sides. Only when it is clear that (whether or not people will admit it overtly) Islam is unjust and dangerous. Will we get support for a number of tough measures that should send Islam back to its cage where it belongs?

A word of caution, never rely on the source of moderates’ logic. Muhammad was evicted from Mecca in a much more polite and humane way than Muslims have ever treated Christian, Hindus, Buddhists, Persians or pagans. He was threatened with death if he did not leave, for it was he who mocked and disrespected the pagan Meccan religion. 21st century Muslims would cut your throat for a fraction of Muhammad’s offenses, apparently belying the notion that people were generally less civilized in the 7th century. So off he went to Medina, holding a grudge that would be eventually settled in Meccan enslavement and slaughter. It was in Medina, where Muhammad positioned himself between two rivals, warring families to establish himself as ruler.

continued....

http://www.amilimani.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=85&Itemid=2

*Stop confusing the actions of muslims with the doctrine of islam* or *blame the individual,not faith*.These are the third class demagogism.

Islam,the cult of 2=1,teachs the muslims what they do.Yes,islam,the cult of *I divorce you*,educated the muslims what to do.

The doctrine of islam is Saudi Arabia.
The doctrine of islam is islamofascist Malaysia.
The doctrine of islam is Afghanistan and Pakistan.
The doctrine of islam is the islamic republic of Iran,Libya and Algeria.

Today is the first day of *Beheading Festival* that is plagiarized from the Jewish Legend(islam is a bad imitation of Judaism indeed).
Yes,Sacrifice Feast.Celebrate,celebrate the 4000 years old Jewish legend.It fits...,it fits.

A.KAFIR,

Eboo is an ismaili, are islamilis discriminated in the muslim world? They seem to be far more liberal than other muslim groups.

Are you a member of FFI ?

Rgds
Ross

"Until the koran is "DEFLAWED", no one is safe!!!" "

You are correct ... But the problem is that the Koran cannot be DEFLAWED and here are the reasons why:

Muslims claim that the Quran is literally the word of Allah relayed by the Arch Angel to Muhammad who merely recited it so it could be written down. It is not the word of Muhammad or any other human. Many verses are written such that Allah speaks directly. No one has the authority to alter one character in the book. There is no authority in Islam that can even contemplate changing the book. People have gotten beheaded for far less than that. Then Quran explicitly closes off any new prophet by declaring Muhammad to be the last and the final prophet (the seal of the prophets). Ahmediyyas and the Bahai's have tried getting around that to no avail and have found themselves killed by the thousands over the years. Then there is 1400 years of commentaries by very renowned muslim imams and any new interpretation and "deflawing" requires overturning all of them. The "liberal" muslims of today especially those in the west are trying to reword the translations, but the changes are glaring and obvious and are rejected by the muslims (see the submitters and freemind site to see examples of that).

So best of luck trying to deflaw the quran. I don't think it can be done. The simplest thing is to educate the kafirs around the world for what the book really says and what it stands for.

Victoria,
Here is the information on Huda as given by about.com:
Huda is a Muslim educator and writer with over a decade of experience researching and writing about Islam on the Internet. An American woman of Irish/English descent, she has been a Muslim for the past 16 years.
Experience:
Huda is an educator, freelance writer and editor. She is the author of The Everything Understanding Islam Book, published in 2003 by Adams Media Corporation. She has been active on the Internet for over a decade, and has been About.com's Guide to Islam since 1998. She currently teaches elementary school in the Middle East.
Education:
Huda holds a M.Ed. degree in Montessori Education, a B.S. degree in Child Development, and an elementary teaching credential from the Association Montessori Internationale. She is fluent in both French and Arabic.
From Huda:
"With the vast amount of information on the Internet, it's easy to come across incorrect information about Islam and Muslim people. Particularly in today's world, misconceptions about our faith are rampant. I hope to bring you original articles and links to quality information that convey the truth and spirit of Islam."

It seems she has been a muslim for far longer than you have been, and I was a muslim for longer than your time and hers rolled into it seems.

And as I said dig a little and you will find the same reason given by many other sources.

Now please try answering the central question posed. It seems Eboo does not have an answer and wants to play the standard game of Islamic Taqqiya or kitman. He has not even shown the common courtsey of trying to acknowledge. So why don't you try your hand at answering the questions asked.

Summarizing 95 comments:

Until the koran is "DEFLAWED", no one is safe!!!"

k- about.com is NOT a source for islamic information- and huda (whoever she is) DOESNT and DIDNT claim to speak for the saudis or their laws-

this is what huda wrote-

"The ban on non-Muslim visitors is mentioned in the Qur’an as follows: "Oh you who believe! Truly the idolaters are unclean; so let them not, after this year, approach the Sacred Mosque...." (9:28). This verse specifically refers to the Grand Mosque in Mecca;"

this is huda's (misinformed) opinion on the matter

it is not- in any way- any kind of proof of anything-

if you so eaily accept the slimmest of opinions from absolute unsubstantiated strangers on about.com as valid-

you will accept anything that agress with your preconceived ideas-

now, ive asnwered, with some diligence and a bit of effort- to present it logically- not just copy and paste - or quickest of googles-

i have asked you a question-

this is either a discussion, or just a reason for you to vent-

if its a discussion, it is only good manners for you to answer my simple personal question which requires no effort or research on your part-

i am not responsible for what some pakistanis do- nor do i concur with many corrupted ideas people purport-

so im not the one to aplologize for every thing every one has ever done-

so- if you want to discuss- discuss-

you asked me, i answered- now ive asked you so its your turn-then we can move on to other questions

arif- im not interested "untouchables" or dalits or whatever the kids are calling them these days
its in your mind-
i didnt tell you to read anything- but it did give a quick explanation- so read that if you want-

but if you start your query with the assertion that you will ignore previous info-
and draw new conclusions based on your own thoughts-
i cant help it-
dont be angry- calm down- its not the biggest issues in the world-

im sorry about how hindus and christians are treated in pakistan- but ive never done any such thing-

and dont insult how i practice my religion because it doesnt fit inwith the rigid inflexible unforgiving version that was crammed down your unwilling young throat -

it wasnt me- so dont blame or insult me
that is not necessary- ive been pretty gentle with you

consider this possibility-

your association with islam and harshness may have colored your perception

there is no incongruity with gentleness, forgiveness, kindness and tolerance with islam

ive learned those qualities and more in islam

i guess you imagine that every good thing has to be christian in origin-
but- my identity- no matter how outwardly flavored by my culture in its expression-
is at its very core, muslim

i am happy and (as much as i can be without arrogance) proud of that
please dont denigrate or corrupt what i am with your misperceptions

and both of you-
stop confusing the actions of people with the doctrine of the religion

and then we can try to tackle the answers together, but not if my questions are blithely ignored- or my answers, when valid- unexplored

peace

Victoria:
You say:
"it would be much better to read the entire 129 ayats..."

Actually NO! I cannot read anything that starts of telling me I am un-touchable.
The verses Mr. Kafir picked are very offensive to the rest of mankind. I for one would have a problem in believing in Allah when he clearly insults his creation. For an Almighty creator to call his creation unclean is despicable. Why should he have a Sacred Mosque only for Muslims? Arn't the rest of mankind also his creation? Keep in mind the Sacred Mosque belonged to the peaceful pagans; the original owners and the ones who build the place. Mohammed attacked and snatched the "Sacred Mosque" from them.

You also say this:
"this is the most used verses ive seen misunderstood by christian websites that are anti-muslim"
I don't think it is misunderstood at all there is no room for interpretation it is very clear.
What has the Muslim world done to rectify the situation? Have they abolished blasphemy laws? Are they thinking of allowing all mankind to visit the "Sacred Mosque" and its surrounding areas? In Pakistan/Bangladesh the Christians/Hindus lived there before the Muslims came from India during partition but they are now second class citizens, is it because of these verses?

"many muslims THEMSELVES seem to be unanware that the qu'ran has both a definite historically revealed context, and a broader context for all of mankind!"

The Saudis, Iranians, Pakistanis etc., have Muslim Scholars who enact Islamic laws that govern their countries. Their punishments and discrimination laws stem from Islamic jurisprudence. How is it that they have a poor understanding of Islam while you clearly have another? I think you are practicing Christoislam?

Why do you refer to him as K- ?

The following is what the foreign Minister of Saudi Arabia said when asked why non-muslims are not allowed to be buried in Saudi Arabia:

The ban on burying foreign workers in Saudi Arabia boiled down to the same issue "The funerals for Muslims and non-Muslims alike involve religious practices-so if we allow non-Muslims to be buried here, this will lead to non-Muslim prayers."

So Victoria, tell me banning non-muslims from entire cities and preventing non-muslim prayers for their dead is equivalent to Martin Luther King fighting to bar discrimination and segregation?

Victoria,

The fact is that Kafirs are not allowed in the city of Mecca and the city of Medinah in Saudi Arabia. Why? The reasons given by the muslims themselves is the verse 9:28. For instance see: http://islam.about.com/od/hajj/f/mecca.htm

If you want you can research yourself and you will find that is the reason offered by the OIC and the Saudi Government. So much for your silly argument that the verses are only historical because they are being used today. If they are only historical then why have them applicable today? Why have a woman stoned to death in the present as pointed out by Ross? There is not even a verse on that in the Quran but it is considered a Hadd punishment. [[Only a Hadiath asserting that Umar or Uthman (and I cannot remember which one of these two) swearing that there was such a verse revealed.]] Why? So before you assert that the historical verses are not applicable take a look whether they are being applied today or not.

Have you been to mecca or medinah? Mecca has a population of 1.4 million. So it is not a question of putting just the mosque off limits. Why is it that a non-muslim cannot be buried or cremated in Saudi Arabia? Why don't you look into that for example?

Personally I have no problem with any of the rules and laws of Islam, because I discarded them and accepted being a Kafir. But I do have a problem with the lies being peddled when Eboo equates the freedoms we enjoy with what Hajj represents. I just want the facts laid out for the american readers. You want to lie to yourself go right ahead, but when you want to lie and paint a fiction about a barbaric period of human history, and try to pass off a barbaric warlord of that era as caring and peaceful then at least be prepared to defend your lies intelligently.

So why don't you tell us in your own words why two whole cities of millions of people are put off limits to non-muslims in the present day and age, (and that these cities have been off limits to non-muslims since the time of muhammad) if these restrictions have nothing to do with your verses that are only historical? If these verses are historical then tell me why is it that Kafirs are still considered filthy ?

This was published in this Newspaper:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/27/AR2006102701106.html
"It's because the Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani has designated himself off-limits to Americans. He will not let Bush, Cheney, Rice and company in to see him because they are non-Muslims and thus he considers them to be kafir, or infidels."
It was let known that the Grand Ayatholla considered the kafirs Najis. So if it is all so historical, why don't you tell that to the Ayatholla Sistani?

K- a basic question i have to ask though is this-
why is it upsetting to you that non-muslims cannot visit the holiest sites of muslims?

do you have some desire to go there, and why?

im not going to visit a mormon temple and complain that im not allowed in.
im not interested in going in, to be honest.

there are many places on the planet that are closed to non-believers-
i cant go to jerusalem and go to the wall- i would be stopped-
but i dont want to go there so, its a non-issue for me.

if you dont like islam, and muslims- why would you want to go there?
and if you dont want to go there, why would you complain about it?

do you want the right to go there to incite problems? criticize? inflame? disrupt?

and why should such a right or intention be valid anyway?

its not- people have a right to protect themselves and provide a safe atmosphere when they are in prayer and vulnerable.

im not going to go into a hindu temple(and ive been to many) and start insulting people-
ive gone with respect, reverence and a desire to learn and grow and understand my fellow humans-

clearly, you wouldnt want to go to worship-which is the only reason for going to hajj-

SORRY, THAT WAS VICTORIA

actually k- it would be much better to read the entire 129 ayats, instead of picking 3 from the middle of the entire text-

possibly you are aware that the qu'ran has both historical and timely suras revealed to apply to specific events at that time, and suras for all time and borad inclusive.

tauba,the sura youve cherry picked your 3 paltry ayats from, is revealed in the historical context, complete with references to particular peoples and tribes, and the usage of disbeleivers is applicable to a certain (known) group of people-
not all of mankind-

certainly it wilud be crazy to cut and paste all 129 ayatsverses) so ive picked a few that show that it was a specific betrayal and breaking of oaths from a speciufic group of people referred to-
not, as youve implied- for all people everywhere-
having said that, there ARE ayats that apply to friendships for all people of the book and

009.001
YUSUFALI: A (declaration) of immunity from Allah and His Messenger, to those of the Pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances:-
009.004

YUSUFALI: (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.
009.006

YUSUFALI: If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.

009.012
YUSUFALI: But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and taunt you for your Faith,- fight ye the chiefs of Unfaith: for their oaths are nothing to them: that thus they may be restrained.

009.013
YUSUFALI: Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is Allah Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!

009.017
YUSUFALI: It is not for such as join gods with Allah, to visit or maintain the mosques of Allah while they witness against their own souls to infidelity. The works of such bear no fruit: In Fire shall they dwell.

009.048
YUSUFALI: Indeed they had plotted sedition before, and upset matters for thee, until,- the Truth arrived, and the Decree of Allah became manifest much to their disgust.

009.056
YUSUFALI: They swear by Allah that they are indeed of you; but they are not of you: yet they are afraid (to appear in their true colours).

YUSUFALI: Make ye no excuses: ye have rejected Faith after ye had accepted it. If We pardon some of you, We will punish others amongst you, for that they are in sin.

009.067
YUSUFALI: The Hypocrites, men and women, (have an understanding) with each other: They enjoin evil, and forbid what is just, and are close with their hands. They have forgotten Allah; so He hath forgotten them. Verily the Hypocrites are rebellious and perverse.

YUSUFALI: They swear by Allah that they said nothing (evil), but indeed they uttered blasphemy, and they did it after accepting Islam; and they meditated a plot which they were unable to carry out: this revenge of theirs was (their) only return for the bounty with which Allah and His Messenger had enriched them! If they repent, it will be best for them; but if they turn back (to their evil ways), Allah will punish them with a grievous penalty in this life and in the Hereafter: They shall have none on earth to protect or help them.

009.077
YUSUFALI: So He hath put as a consequence hypocrisy into their hearts, (to last) till the Day, whereon they shall meet Him: because they broke their covenant with Allah, and because they lied (again and again).

009.128
YUSUFALI: Now hath come unto you a Messenger from amongst yourselves: it grieves him that ye should perish: ardently anxious is he over you: to the Believers is he most kind and merciful.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html

of course, the entire 129 are linked here-
this is the most used verses ive seen misunderstood by christian websites that are anti-muslim

many muslims THEMSELVES seem to be unanware that the qu'ran has both a definite historically revealed context, and a broader context for all of mankind!

Manesh,

Is that not the traditional Indian dhimmi attitude of avoiding speaking the truth to avoid "conflict"? You r history has been of paying jazziya with willing submission for a thousand years. You had your country divided for the two nation theory because Muslims could not live with the non-muslims. Why do you want the Americans to go down the path of a defeated mentality ... afraid to even ask simple questions because they may offend the muslims? You know and I know that we cannot ask such questions in India. There will be "communal" rioting and our minority will be on the streets setting everything to fire. Is that why you are afraid of asking questions of Islam?

Why don't you show what is it that has been said about Islam is wrong? Why don't you ask your fellow indian Eboo to come and clarify and show that what is being written is false?

Manesh writes "Many of these comments are extremely critical of Islam and are hypocritical considering that most belief systems could be accused of these same criticisms:"

So instead of trying to answer the questions raised, Manesh's tack is look at all the other religions and they are all bad and so do not ask any hard questions. Is that it, Manesh? Why bring up Moses or any of the other utterly irrelevant issues from other religions when we are talking about whether it is appropriate to equate the civil rights movement and the words of Martin Luther King to what Hajj represents?

Do you have anything to say about the topic, say it, but why cop a plea and tell people to not think and analyze clearly? Is fuzzy thinking and hiding the blood and gore the only way that you can suggest to deal with Eboo's claim?

Many of these comments are extremely critical of Islam and are hypocritical considering that most belief systems could be accused of these same criticisms:

1) Most evangelical Christians believe that the Bible says that all non-Christians will burn in hell for eternity. So how can you accuse Muslims of being intolerant?

2) The Bible itself (in Numbers 31) tells a story of how Moses's army went to war against the Midianites, burned their villages, and killed their men. When the army brought back the women and children alive, Moses ordered them to kill the women and boys and to keep the virgin girls alive for themselves (Num 31:17). So how can a Christian or Jew accuse Mohammed for any acts of violence?

3) Most of the religions have their violent pasts. Christians - the Crusades, witch burnings, forced conversions (Goa India) etc... Jewish people - Numbers 31. Hindus - the untouchables. Even atheists - China gradual and systematic destruction of Tibetan Buddhism, basically in the name of atheism, and clearly atheism doesn't bring about peace.

Obviously, there are still many wonderful, peaceful Christians, Hindus, Jews and Muslims, so it can be done. Attacking the religion itself won't get us anything but more violence and intolerance.

Eboo,
Here's something else that takes place in the islamic holy land.

EYEWITNESS TO STONING WOMAN IN SAUDI ARABIA FOR ADULTERY

When I was sent to Riyadh for a month to work with the US Air Force for a joint assignment, I never realized the sights I'd see. One of them was a public stoning. All I saw was a woman standing in a hole tied to a post, she was shoulder deep in the hole. The guy I was with wanted to see it. It's rare that westerners are even allowed to see this They gathered around this poor girl for around an hour, throwing rocks at her.

Stoning a human to death

Dear readers, please put on your thinking cap and imagine a mental picture of the following story.

A deep hole is dug in the ground. A 30 year old lady, tied up from feet to shoulders, as a stick, is lowered alive into this hole, in a standing position. Only her neck and head are visible. Can you imagine a human head sticking above ground?

When the order is given, a man throws a fist-sized stone at her protruding head. The stone hits her head with a thud. She screems in pain as the blood oozes down her face. Another man picks up a stone and scraps the side of her head drawing a lateral line of blood. She cries and screems in excruciating pain. Since it is a free for all, a teenage spectator from this open playing field, tries his luck, but misses her head completely. Another aims at her and flings it with force. The stone hits its intended target, her forehead.

She screems and cries loudly for mercy. There is now a gash on her forehead. Blood spurting out, down her eyes, nose, cheeks, mouth and down to the ground. She cries out for mercy but to not avail. The minutes become an hour, between the many misses, scraps, nicks, chips and strikes. Another spectator flings forcefully at her.

The stone hits the bridge of her nose with another thud. She screems again and again. This time the blood comes down from inside and outside her nose. Probably, her nasal bridge-bone is broken, causing the bleeding from inside her nostrils as well. Though her wounds are grave, as you can imagine, her screems by now are not as vociferous as earlier, and her tears help to wash some of the blood on her cheeks. Her vision has completely gone with the blood coating.The next stone hits her again. A piece of flesh pops out. No, its not, oh god, it really can't be her eye-ball. It is so bloody that you cann't really make out. By this time, blood has covered her entire face and the ground in front of her.She still makes groaning sounds. More time pass. Stoning her, continues. Her sounds are less and less audible. Her face has become unrecognisable. Flesh, like mashed meat is her face, but only more bloody, as she now literally has no human face. Small strips of flesh, like locks of hair are hanging from her. Her head is now droopping forward. At this stage a hit on her make splashes of blood. She has stopped making a sound for the last two stone pelting. Two hours have passed. The Islamic authorities check her neck for pulse. It is still beating but barely, due to the loss of blood. A flesh piece drops off her head, as the stoning process continues.

Finally,death comes to this lady. She is then left there for a few more hours for the spectators to see, because this is a public lesson for all muslim females, who commit adultery.Then her father and relatives are allowed to dig her body, and bring it above ground. Pieces of her flesh, lying on the ground, is collected and because she has no face, it is put back on the front of her head, and bundled up. Now readers, imagine that is your mother, or your daughter, or sister, or even you, yourself.

DNA is not accepted in Islam, but at least 4 witnesses of reputable character, should give testimony of the actual penetration of the sexual intercourse to convict him. You might ask, who has sexual intercourse in front of 4 witnesses? I can also ask you "how can you consider 4 men watching others' sexual intercourse, as reputable characters?".But, there is no question or denying that this is not a traditonal, customary, cultural or a kangaroo court, but a legal Islamic court, with legal Islamic judges and legal expert Islamic officials, in the muslim state of Bakori ( Nigeria), of the legal Government, democratically elected by the Muslim citizens of this state. These are the undeniable authentic facts, which no amount of words or actions can ever repudiate.

Hear the deafening silence of the 1 billion muslims worldwide, who are in a vigorous fit of inactivity, calmly pretending not to know. But, the balance 5/6th of the world, (1.5 billion Christians, 1.1 billion Taoists, 1 billion Hindus, 700 million Bhuddists and others) can do something to stop this barbarism of the middle-east.

Eboo,

Here are a few tips your in-laws and other muslims could use to enhance their Hajj experience.

Whilst performing Hajj:

Spare a thought for the non muslims driven out of arabia or forcebly converted by mohammad.

Spare a though for the jewish tribes who were massacared by Mo and their possessions and women divided among his followers and their children confined to slavery.

Spare a thought for Safiyyah and Juwariyah who were forcebly married to Mo after he beheaded their husbands.

Spare a thought for Asma-bint_Marwan a poetess and critic of Mo who was brutually killed by a follower of mohammad while nursing her infant.

Spare a thought for the six year old Aishah whose innocence was destroyed by mo.

Spare a thought for the non muslims in Saudi who as dhimmis and Kaffirs are unable to practice their own faith.

Spare a thought for those who tried practising and are now languishing in jails accused of blasphemy.

Spare a thought for those facing imprisonment or beheading for having left islam.

Spare a thought for those facing lashing or stoning for committing adultery.

A.KAFIR wrote:
Allah is directly cursing the jews and the christians for being Mushriks (for asscociating someone with Allah).

Funny is it not, why does the ultimate force in the universe get so frustrated that he has to resort to cursing ? who carries out this curse ?

Gandalf wrote:
Arif: With due respect, I don't think it is a problem with the Muslim God. It is a problem of interpretation by some muslims. Of course, that leads to intolerance and bigotry and the current state of affairs...but saying it is a problem with the Muslim God is showin your ignorance.

It is the other way round, if muslims are good it is inspite of their Allah or Prophet. I don't think there is a problem with muslims, they are just victims of this islamic brainwashing.

WPC writes: "Thank you, dear friend, for your reminder of the practice of the Prophet. I knew that I would read something thoughtful from you. The comments posted about your piece, however, once again reflect the failure of the ignorant to distinguish between the practices of the Prophet and the Holy Qur'an on the one hand, and how people interpret and implement them on the other."

Please take the time to teach this ignorant what is it that I do not understand of the Quran 9:28 and 9:30? Now please tell all the Kafirs what is it that is unclear about what the Quran is saying?

009.028
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.

The word used is Mushrikoon and that covers a lot more than the Pagans ... does it not WPC? Now is Allah calling them unclean or not? Is Allah calling his own creation unclean or not? Is Allah not calling the majority of humanity unclean or not? What is it that needs to be understood here? Please explain.

009.029
YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Is Allah not prescribing death for the unclean Kafirs or pay Jizya with willing submission or not? What is meant by willing submission WPC? What is meant by they should feel themselves subdued? Please explain. I am eager to hear what I have not understood.

009.030
YUSUFALI: The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

Is Allah cursing the jews and the christians or not? Is Islam not taking the right of the christians to interpret their own religion or not in this verse? Why cannot a christian interpret what he means by Son of God?

I have been waiting for Eboo to speak up, but to no avail. Perhaps you will remove my ignorance. Would you like to see what the tafsirs of the very famous Muslim scholars have to say about these verses?

Are not these the verses that underlie the reason why non-muslims may not step in the holy city of Mecca and Medina? And you want the Kafirs, the majority of mankind, to be joyous at being deeply and fundamentally insulted by Islam and its Allah at Hajj?

Re:Hajj;
I have a number of questions regarding Hajj that were never answered to my satisfaction;
1. Why do Muslims have to face the K'aba while praying? Is n't Allah everywhere?
2.Why has the prayer direction changed from that of Jerusalem to a cubical structure in Mecca? Is that because of a nearby tomb?
3.If every Hajj ritual have a meaning to Muslims, why were those same exact rituals used during the Pre-Islamic era?
4. Do Muslims truly believe that visiting Mecca wil make Allah forgive their sins? Does that also mean the citizens of Mecca "are pure as the driven snow"
5. Why are non-Muslims not allowed in Mecca even to film a documentary?
6. What is the significance of those black pebbles that Pilgrims stampede to kiss them?

Thank you, dear friend, for your reminder of the practice of the Prophet. I knew that I would read something thoughtful from you. The comments posted about your piece, however, once again reflect the failure of the ignorant to distinguish between the practices of the Prophet and the Holy Qur'an on the one hand, and how people interpret and implement them on the other. Modern Islamist terrorism is the product of twisted understanding and distortion of scripture.

Would it not be better if all of us looked at the Prophet's actions in this instance and sought to follow it, no matter what we might think about the rest of the message of Islam? Surely, to emulate the good is worthy of divine confirmation.

A peaceful and compassionate man's followers blew up 3,000 civlians on 9/11 (including 15 mass murderers from his birth place), massacred 300 Elementary school children in Russia, kill civilians every day and threaten to wipe off America if we do not convert to Islam...

Well, I wonder what happened? How can such a peaceful man's followers be so violent and intolerant?

Gandalf,

Look up the Quran 9:28 for yourself. The arabic word used by Allah there is Najis.
The arabic words are "almushrikoona najasun". This is Allah's own words according to Islam. He is calling the Mushrikoon Najis. Find out exactly what is Najis in arabic and what does the word apply to for yourself. And then read Quran 9:30

"The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!" (Quran 9:30)

Allah is directly cursing the jews and the christians for being Mushriks (for asscociating someone with Allah).

It is not anyone interpretation of a small sect that we are talking here. This is the very word of Allah according to Islam.

arif- thanks for the added cultural insight-

its not the god that is small- it is the heart of the people-

ive drunk form the same glass as PWA's (people with aids)without turning it to a new spot even on purpose- so i dont think id have a problem inviting you to my house (as long as you and your wife and kids arent allergic to cats) or coming to yours if you were so inclined-

but that is me, and i dont have any sociological pressures on me to do otherwise(however- that has never stopped me) there was a time when people wouldnt shake my hand in he 80s because of my work with AIDS people, or sometimes even breathe the same air-

peope are stupid, fearful and tiny hearted soemtimes-

i have to go- i came to sut off the computer but, am easily distracted
peace and we will discuss prayer at length another time (insha'alla:)
peace all

Victoria,

The reference is not from India or pakistan. And there is no hindu philosphy creeping in. I am quoting for you the Quran directly. I did not even give you a prettied up translation but a literal word for word translation. Quran calls Mushrikoon (those who take partners to Allah ) as filthy. It clarifies further in 9:30 two verses later that jews are mushrikoon, and later that so are the christians with jesus as son of God. So don't blame booklets and from india and pakistan. It is your Allah's word. Why does your allah consider most of humanity filthy and prohibts them worshiping at his house?

Arif you write:
"I completely rejected Islam, I am a true Kafir then. I cannot go to the sacred mosque? Neither will Muslims associate with me, nor will they eat at my table, drink from my glass, share my hospitality and so on. What kind of religion is this?

To Mr. A. Kafir, do you reject the truth? can I be your friend? I am a brother kafir too you know. I am Najis, is that a problem? Will you come to my home and dine with me if I invite you? May I pray in your place of worship? I'd like to know please."

Not only will they not dine with you but they are sharia bound to kill you. Apostates die.

I agree with you that Wudu is a indeed a strange concept, but it is worth remembering that Muhammad claimed that it was the very first thing that was taught to him by the Arch angel Jibreel. He was so excited that he ran home to teach Wudu to his first wife Khadija. So before anything was revealed to Muhammad, he was taught to perform Wudu!!!

I am a true Kafir, a fitri Murtad, and hence I will be honored to go out for a drink and break bread with you anytime anywhere.

Gandalf:
Call me ignorant but not before you do some research of your own, did you read the Koran? Are you reading what A. Kafir is posting? Muslims believe that the Koran is the literal word of Allah. Therefore what A. Kafir quotes is directly from the horses mouth so to speak. I come from a country of 160 million Muslims, I was a Muslim, I know how they treat the minorities there, we had a Christian clean our house daily. He was not allowed to touch the door knobs let alone touch kitchen appliences, this is common practice. I know what they calls Christians/Hindus - Churas. The word Chura is equivalent to the "N" word or worse in the US but for similar reasons. The "Churas" are a darker shade in skin color than the common Pakistanis. They perhaps are from the Dravidian race a darker shorter race. However that does not make them any inferior, why and where do you think such behavior comes from. You may want to read up more about what Islam does to entire cultures before you accuse people of being ignorant.

BTW - Pak is acutually pronounced Paak - meaning pure. I think if not arabic then its pharsi/Persian.

Arif: With due respect, I don't think it is a problem with the Muslim God. It is a problem of interpretation by some muslims. Of course, that leads to intolerance and bigotry and the current state of affairs...but saying it is a problem with the Muslim God is showin your ignorance.

This is the problem I have with the Muslim god, he is so small that ...
"k- right now, i am unclean-
i have to perform wudu to pray-
i am not currently covered in urine or feces- but i havent performed wudu(ablutions)"

Why do you have to do wudu to pray? Even if you were covered in feces why does allah not accept your prayers?

"also, a kafir is one who has concealed, covered over or rejected (the truth)

AFTER being fully educated and informed and knowledgeable about islam, they consciously reject islam, since you havent been educated in islam- you cant be a kafir..."

I completely rejected Islam, I am a true Kafir then. I cannot go to the sacred mosque? Neither will Muslims associate with me, nor will they eat at my table, drink from my glass, share my hospitality and so on. What kind of religion is this?

To Mr. A. Kafir, do you reject the truth? can I be your friend? I am a brother kafir too you know. I am Najis, is that a problem? Will you come to my home and dine with me if I invite you? May I pray in your place of worship? I'd like to know please.

thank you k for giving me your reference-
i appreciate when people take the time to try to validate their position-

im not familair with what youve posted per se-
i am however, familiar with the demeanor of the excerpt (it helps to put names titles links etc-but im not quibbling as i have no real desire to find this booklet- i assume its from a booklet?:)

i recognize it as a portion of a type of book ive found prevalent in indo-pakistani mosques-

(i also recognize in it a bit of hindu philosophy creeping in, which further confirms, without you telling me- my suspicions of its origins)
ive also had them given to me by well meaning people-
some of them border on downright magic- ayats to say to have a male child etc- and superstition-

let me say that people can pick a part of something to support their own prejudices if that is their intention

clearly, whoever wrote this book has many issues

and the meaning of the word pak is unknown to me-

that is why the internet can be a dangerous source-(as i stated before)

what you have there is someones opinion.

so, as it conflicts with what i now of islamic ideology- i reject it as just that. an opinion. and we all have them.

for instance, ijust glanced at the begininning-
it said human feces is all impurifying-

this is just wrong-
i spent last week discussing this with a shaikh in regards to babies and invalidating wudu- (actally it was kittens, and moved onto the topic of human babies)

and no- neither substance invalidates wudu

so there is that eample-

im sorry- i dont have time rigt now as im supposed to be doing other things-

The Qur'an states: "Say, We believe in Allah and that which hath been sent down to us, and that which was sent down to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which was delivered to Moses, and Jesus, and the Prophets from their Lord; we make no distinction between any of them; and to Him we are resigned" Sura 3:84.

ok, k- ive got to go- ill talk to you again

o- well- i guess since youve turned reasonable i will say that i am sorry for calling you disgusting and perverse-

ill say- the IDEA was certainly disgusting and perverse-

and strictly and totally unislamic but i cant spend all my time justifying the rotten actions of others because the happen to be muslim-

roten weird is rotten weird and that is creepy and SPECIFICALLY forbidden in the guidelines of behavior during hajj!

so-even if you hadnt, i would have eventually come around to say i shouldnt ever call anyone a name- i was pretty repelled by it

so- im sorry k-

peace!

To Victoria or Mr Patel or any other Muslim on this thread:

I have been reading the posts with interest and some don't degree of shock and surprise. I don't mean to be argumentative or start name calling, but do you really believe that the verses calling non-believers (people who follow other religions such as Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism or Paganism or the atheists) as unclean/filthy (whatever the demeaning words being used) should be quoted or followed even today, or especially today? Do you not think these verses help drive the wedge even deeper and create an atmosphere of mutual distrust and hate?

Just for my knowledge, what exactly is wudu?

Thanks and peace!

G

Summarizing the previous 69 comments:

Until the koran is "DEFLAWED", no one is safe!!!!"

Victoria,
Here is from the link to an islamic site I gave you that details for you what about the Kafir is filthy:

"Kafir

107. * An infidel i.e. a person who does not believe in Allah and His Oneness, is najis. Similarly, Ghulat who believe in any of the holy twelve Imams as God, or that they are incarnations of God, and Khawarij and Nawasib who express enmity towards th e holy Imams, are also najis. And similar is the case of those who deny Prophethood, or any of the necessary laws of Islam, like, namaz and fasting, which are believed by the Muslims as a part of Islam, and which they also know as such.

As regards the people of the Book (i.e. the Jews and the Christians) who do not accept the Prophethood of Prophet Muhammad bin Abdullah (Peace be upon him and his progeny), they are commonly considered najis, but it is not improbable that they are Pak. Ho wever, it is better to avoid them.

108. The entire body of a Kafir, including his hair and nails, and all liquid substances of his body, are najis.

109. * If the parents, paternal grandmother and paternal grandfather of a minor child are all kafir, that child is najis, except when he is intelligent enough, and professes Islam. When, even one person from his parents or grandparents is a Muslim, the child is Pak (The details will be explained in rule 217).

110. * A person about whom it is not known whether he is a Muslim or not, and if no signs exist to establish him as a Muslim, he will be considered Pak. But he will not have the privileges of a Muslim, like, he cannot marry a Muslim woman, nor can he be buried in a Muslim cemetery.
"

Victoria,

So are you telling me that 9:28 of the Quran is saying that all the Kafirs have to do is do Wudu and then they can approach Allah's house? Why does Allah say that all Mushrikoon are Najis and may not approach his house? Their doing Wudu or taking a million baths at that will not change their status of being Najis.

And you seem to misunderstand, the ruling of the muslims has been that Kafirs are not covered with feces but are inherently as filthy as feces. I give you the link again:
http://www.al-islam.org/laws/najisthings.html

Zorastrians were not allowed to step out of their houses when it was raining in their own land by Muslims because the rain water contacted the Kafir and became filthy and the Muslims did not want to be splattered by it because they treated it as equivalent to being splattered by urine. That is a fact of Islamic history.

hello k- (im not going to call you kafir, as you are clearly not)

listen dear- i didnt attack you- i asked you to present substantiation-

as for your repeated dramatic characterizations of "filthiness"

YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise

k- right now, i am unclean-
i have to perform wudu to pray-
i am not currently covered in urine or feces- but i havent performed wudu(ablutions)

nor is anyone suggesting pagans are covered in feces-

so- i have answered you- but your accusations continue to go unproven-
so ill leave you in your own state of mind that i found you in

also, a kafir is one who has concealed, covered over or rejected (the truth)

AFTER being fully educated and informed and knowledgeable about islam, they consciously reject islam, since you havent been educated in islam- you cant be a kafir.

ill take a stab that your own tribal or racial prejudices are motivating your posts.

and i dont have the inclination to encourage them by continuing

also- you havent answered any of the requests for some validation so ill just assume your anecdotes were just that.

Now why do you say that I am being perverse and disgusting?

I found a link for you to watch of the Kumbh Mela by TIME magazine: http://www.time.com/time/photoessays/2007/kumbh_mela_multimedia/

No one is prohibted to attend that. Anyone can go, and many many american teenagers do go and have a good time. No one calls them "Najis" and as filthy as urine and sh*t either as Allah says in the Quran as I have shown you or read for yourself (Quran 9:28).

Alex was talking about Islamofascism, but when you have reduced a person to as filthy as urine and sh*t then how much empathy is generated when you actually behead such sh*t? Alex needs to understand the source and the underpinning of the fascism that bothers him. Eboo is trying to tell us that a ritual that dehumanizes the overwhelming majority of humanity is something we should find good. I am sorry but I cannot go there. Calling me names is not going to erase the facts or hide the problems. Why don't you try answering or getting Mr. Patel to answer in good faith?

really you are just beng perverse and disgusting

i hope you can find peace in your life and if youre a praying man- do so

Victoria,

Ah, the gentility of a Muslimah shows through. You cannot answer and so you attack me? You talk about large gathering assembling peacefully. Well why don't you read about Kumbh Mela that is held in India. 70 million people attend that and the temporary city that assemble dwarfs the Hajj by a long shot.

http://www.kumbh.net/

Regarding Honor killings take a look at some of the stats being put out by the UN and the Arab governments themselves:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing

"Sharif Kanaana, professor of anthropology at Birzeit University states that honor killing is:

A complicated issue that cuts deep into the history of Arab society. .. What the men of the family, clan, or tribe seek control of in a patrilineal society is reproductive power. Women for the tribe were considered a factory for making men. The honor killing is not a means to control sexual power or behavior. What's behind it is the issue of fertility, or reproductive power.[5]

An Amnesty International statement adds:

The regime of honour is unforgiving: women on whom suspicion has fallen are not given an opportunity to defend themselves, and family members have no socially acceptable alternative but to remove the stain on their honour by attacking the woman.[14] "

Now I suggest that you address the issue of this page and that is Eboo's attempt to equate the blatant and egregious dehumanization of Kafirs by Islam and the civil rights movement and the words of Martin Luther King fighting to remove hatred and discrimination, and the voluntary acceptance of those words by the Americans at large.

The Allah of Islam commanded:
Quran 9:28
Transliteration Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo innama almushrikoona najasun fala yaqraboo almasjida alharama baAAda AAamihim hatha wa-in khiftum AAaylatan fasawfa yughneekumu Allahu min fadlihi in shaa inna Allaha AAaleemun hakeemun

Literal You, you those who believed but/truly the sharers/takers of partners (with God are) impurity/contamination , so they do not approach/near the Mosque the Forbidden/Sacred after this their year, and if you feared need/necessity/poverty, so God will/shall enrich/suffice you from His grace/favour , if He willed/wanted, that God (is) knowledgeable, wise/judicious.

So you see the christians with their jesus, and the Jews with their Uzair, son of Allah (Quran 9:30), and the buddhists, and the pagan hindus, and the atheists are all considered "filthy" by their Creator according to his word of the Quran and prohibted to approach his Mosque.

Please tell me why does your God consider the overwhelming majority of humanity since creation to be filthy and not allowed to approach his house?

The uninformed or people who close their eyes say among other things...
"...the largest gathering of human beings on the planet-
an instant city (minus the crime, and violence, and distrubances)
even at a rock concert for a few hours, there are always conflicts-..."

During Hajj countless young women circling the Kabah are grabbed, groped, felt, fondeled by the men saying Labbayk. The astonished women don't say anything becasue they cannot believe what's happening. They keep quiet and say nothing because who will listen? Maybe they should change the clothes worn by women during Hajj to something where female body parts are less accessable; that sheed just doesn't do it.

I wonder what would happen if one sacrafices a pig while at Hajj? Afterall Allah made the pig too didn't he?

i have no idea who that person is -
anyone can circulate a petition online- the onus is on you to provide some proof of the (increasing) accusations you levy-

i know many many women who have gone to hajj and have never heard this-
it doesnt mean it didnt happen- just remember- the internet is not real life-

so - i dont sign petitions on hearsay- but need to have information available to validate it

i will certainly ask around though- the chances are that i know literally conutlss more women to ask- now is certainly the time-
if this is an issue- i will discover it

so again, alarmist and dramatic statements need to be proven

nettiquette actually demands that you support your statments with some sort of substantiation or they will just remain baseless accusations and responded to or discounted as such
peace

kafir- (although it is becoming increasingly apparent that you cannot actually be one)
the subject is hajj-

while you may not be a muslim, like muslims or have your own prejudices against them-
still- what are your motives?

while you are complaining about the"thousands" of honor killings- as you are the accuser- the onus is on you to provide more than your opinion-

but why do you choose to see (even if it actually is 1000s, which its not) only that-

i assume you have some intellignece-

3 million people are 3 million people!

it is beyond astonishing, truly mind boggling that a city of strangers can spring up spontaneously for 10 days, and disband, with minimal conflict

can you think of any other instances where such an occurence takes place?

i cannot-

now, if you want to be respected, and taken seriously- exchanges between people with differing views is a wonderful place to do so-

but if you only want to vent- well- dont expet to be responded to with genitility by gentle people-

you'll only attract those with simialr biases and hatreds-
and you are known by the company you keep.

ill give you the benefit of the doubt for now- (but with some reservation and ill say why in a minute)

if you have a mind that can be sharpened by new knowledge- and the ability to think critically on your own- it will be sharpened

if you have a mind that is dulled by repetitve indoctrination, without the ability to process new input- and a heart smudged with hated for an "other"
that will aslo become apparent

im speaking to your higher cognitive processes when i say- it is really quite remarkable for 3 million strangers to come together in peace-

now, as to my reservatons-
it seems you do not even know the word or name you have defined yourself with.
thats a pretty questionable thing to do to oneself

i suspect you got your information second hand, from someone who also has no knowledge.

so, i will continue to control the nature and direction of my own thoughts expressed here-

while you try and foment some anger- or commandeer the direction in a negative tangent-
you can continue to try-

personally, i always bet that there are more people out there who are reasonable, and respond to reason- than prejudiced and respond to prejudice.

its just the prejudiced lack impulse control-(as their anger and emotions control their actions) so they seem to scream louder and are more needy of attention

it doesnt mean the reasonable rational people arent there- and arent swayed by calmly presented logic-
they just arent as likely to yell about it

if you have a mind that is dulled by

Victoria,

I hope you have signed the petition asking that women not be discriminated during Hajj.

http://www.petitiononline.com/hajj/petition.html

We, the undersigned, petition the United Nations, its Security Council and World Government Leaders to join Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch to STOP the discrimination, unjust treatment and occasional assault on Muslim women pilgrims at the annual Hajj (Pilgrimage) in Saudia Arabia. This behavior has escalated more than the past when women and men were treated equally during the Pilgrimage. Unfortunately, there seems to be a turn for the worse and changes have been implemented that are unfair and sexist. One example is that women are no longer allowed to visit the Prophet's (SAW) grave in close proximity. Many Muslim women returning from the pilgrimage exhibit bruises and signs of physical abuse. Their only crime committed was that they attempted to pray in sacred areas that are now only reserved for men.

.......

Victoria,

If you think there is no crime in SA, and no crime during Hadj then you have not been to hadj, have you?
Telling the truth regardless of what it does for tribal honor is not something the Saudis or many of the people of that area have yet mastered. And that is just one of the reasons of the thousands of "honor killings" every year. So is this page for education and an honest exchange or is it swamp the kafirs with lies and then more lies?

And as to your question, who is a kafir.
By Quran's definition a kafir is one who does not submit to Allah and who does not accept Muhammad as the prophet of Allah.

the largest gathering of human beings on the planet-

an instant city (minus the crime, and violence, and distrubances)

even at a rock concert for a few hours, there are always conflicts-

this speaks for itself, and is truly remarkable-

http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/Hajj/ss/events/wl/121407haj/im:/071218/photos_wl/2007_12_18t090248_450x300_us_haj_saudi/

REPLY TO: ATS

You wrote:
"...right before you get (to Mecca), the freeway splits into the Muslim lane and Non-Muslim lane. How do you relate that to the Civil Rights movement? It sounds more like Jim Crow America to me. In fact, your blessed Arabia still has separate waiting rooms, separate parts of the bus, and separate right. Exactly what the Civil Rights movement was fighting...you dare to compare the arguably most oppressive religion in the world to the Civil Rights movement. You are clearly irrational...Hmm, perhaps I'll write a column comparing the Crusades to the Underground Railroad... It makes about as much sense."

Right on! As you can tell from my ID, I've known segregation and discrimination first hand. You hit the nail on the head with your accurate comparison of the practices of Islam with some of the worst aspects of segregation. I'm always ready to reach for the throw-up bag when I read yet another rapturous essay on how the Hajj reflects Islam's respect for diversity. As if most of the Muslims attending that Hajj don't come from societies where women are treated little better than slaves, and human rights and democracy are totally alien constructs. As if a few days of everybody wearing the same white robe can wash away 1,500 years of intolerance, discrimination, and repression.

REPLY TO Alex:

You ask why some people make such a big deal out of non-Muslims being denied access to Mecca and ask if others do not have sacred places. Well, Alex, I'm a Christian and we do have sacred places. But I cannot name a single sacred Christian shrine that is reserved exclusively for Christians or where non-Christians are denied entrance. Just to name a few, the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem, the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem, St. Peter's Basilica in Rome--all are open to Muslims and all other faiths--even atheists. For that matter, as far as I know, you can show up at any church in America on Sunday morning and be welcomed inside. You won't even have to take your shoes off.

Does that give a context in which Christians are put off by the idea of a religious shrine being declared off limits, or by being denied entrance to a mosque? In our hearts, Alex, we Americans really do believe in equality, even if we sometimes fail to live up to our own standards. The world will be a much better place, if Muslims even reach our somewhat tarnished but intact standards.

Dialogue of the deaf?

With this piece of overwrought nonsense, Mr. Patel crossed the line from devout but rational Muslim to chief propagandist for religious myths and lies.

What will we have, if Christians offer a riposte on the same level? Perhaps that story of the Virgin Mary appearing to a bunch of French (Polish/Italian/Irish, you choose) school girls preaching benevolence for all mankind and creating an instant shrine where all who come can be comforted and cured. Or one of those wonderful stories of Christ healing the lame, the blind, and the halt, thereby establishing for all time the benevolence of the Christian religion--religious wars, the Inquisition, the burning of witches, slavery, and the Holocaust notwithstanding.

The depiction of Muhammad as primarily a man of peace, spreading his religion with acts of charity and compassion, is such a flagrant lie and so willfully ignorant of the historical record, it is ludicrous. Mr. Patel has obviously decided to shred his credibility as a voice for tolerance and respect between Muslims and other faiths, and he succeeded quite well. With this offering, Mr. Patel has put himself on a par with Frank Graham offering a commentary on the origins of Christianity.

It would demean intellectual discourse to even bother to offer a point-by-point rebuttal to this drivel. In Mr. Patel’s previous commentary, he received over 300 comments. Most of them offered chapter and verse facts and rational analysis of why any attempt to depict Islam as primarily a religion of mercy and compassion and one tolerant of diversity, is pure myth. Mr. Patel does not bother with a rebuttal or counter-argument. On the contrary. He chooses a major escalation with this in-your-face commentary straight from the book of sermons of the most uneducated and least qualified of American ulema.

This has become a dialogue of the deaf. What a shame. I had thought that Mr. Patel offered a forum for Muslim and Christians to air their differences, in a tolerant spirit of give-and-take, recognizing that on some issues we would have to agree to disagree but still respect each other’s position. How sad that Mr. Patel has chosen to turn it into a platform for the Islamic equivalence of a right-wing Christian Sunday School lesson.

Muslims worldwide should be proud to visit the most fundamentalist and repressive Islamic nation on the planet. While you perform your hajj take time to remember the 10,000 or more Buddhist, Hindu and Jain temples your ancestors destroyed and are still attempting to destroy in India, Pakistan, Afghanistan and Malaysia.

If you want to do good deeds, take up a collection for the rebuilding of the religious icons and artworkds of others your religion has destroyed around the world, and the "infidels" you have killed in order to make your religion and shiria the "law of the land" in so many places.

If you want to do some good in the world, make your hajj instead to Thailand, and help stamp out the Islamic raiders that have killed so many monks, and destroyed so many temples, in the last few years.

If Islam stands for anything good, then put that energy to ending the murder of Christians and Animist in Sudan and all over Africa, where Muslims commit slaughter in the name of GREED, WHEREVER THERE IS OIL THEY CAN STEEL FROM POOR PEOPLES.

I WOULD SO LIKE TO SEE THE OUTPOURING OF ISLAMIC GOODWILL AFTER ONE OF YOUR FOOLISH DICTATORSHIPS ATTACKS ISRAEL, AND THEy TURN MECCA INTO A GLASS PARKING LOT THAT GLOWS IN THE DARK FOR 10,000 YEARS, ONE FOR EACH OF THE ACTS OF DESTRUCTION YOU HAVE METTED OUT ON ANYONE THAT DISAGREES.

Others are supposed to forgive and forget the 1500 years of violent history of your religion, which has not stopped or even slowed down.

Well not this cracker.

Islam should be outlawed in all civilized nations of the world, and it's practice forbidden, and its temples destroyed, just the way you would do it to others.

The historical realities about Kaaba and hajj.

1-Kaaba,Baytullah/House of Allah.It is believed that Kaaba had been built by Abraham.That is IMPOSSIBLE.Abraham,a sumerian from UR(ancient city in Sumeria) didnt go and visit Mecca.He migrated to Carrhea(urfa in Turkey) and later to CAnaan and to Egypt and come back to the Promised Land(Yes,of course).First,Abraham didnt go to Mecca,second the date of Kaaba didnt go to before Jesus.Abraham,if he was a person,had lived in BC 1900 or 1800.

2-Kaaba/House of Allah(God is not correct translation) was the center of Pagan deities before islam.There had been 360 idols at Kaaba and the Kaaba was the center of pilgrimage(hajj) as well pre-islam.

3-The Black Stone,the heart of kaaba.hajar ul aswad.It is believed,by the followers of 2=1,to fall from the Heaven.It was white and turned black because of millions of sins(islam came,did the sin end ?)
Muslims turn seven times around the kaaba.This is a *stone age ritual*.

4-Qibla,the direction muslims face during prayer.But,the first years of islam,qibla was the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem.

5-Some muslims say *Jesus couldnt save himself on the cross,how can He save the whole world*,but the same logic is valid for kaaba as well.If it is *house of Allah*,it had been overthrown by the flood many time in the past,so if Allah couldnt protect his own house,how can He protect the whole world.

6-Eid al-Adha,the sacrifice feast,the festival of Beheading.It is plagiarized from the Jewish Legend,Dec.20-23.Abraham and Isaac,yes Isaac.Islam says,no ,he was not Isaac,but Ismael.First,you shall steal the Jewish Legend and later you shall give idea.
Islam says *take not the Jews for your friends*,but,you can steal the Jewish Belief,you can steal the Jewish Temple and you can plagiarize the Jewish Legend.

The followers of *I divorce you* cult,you can never be the civilized men if you celebrate *the Beheading Feast*

I want to add some fact regarding "HAJJ".
==================================================

If you are not amongst those, who by Allah’s grace have been able to attend
this great act of worship, then do not despair!! The first ten days of the sacred month of Thul-Hijjah represents a great opportunity to invest in the way of good deeds.

Narrated Ibn Abbaas: The Prophet, sallallaahu álayhi wa sallam , said: “No good deeds done on other days are superior to those done on the first ten days of Thul-Hijjah”. Then some of the companions of the Prophet, pbuh, asked: “not even Jihad?” he replied: “not even Jihad, except that of a man who does it by putting himself and his property in danger for Allah’s sake and does not return with any of these things. (Al-Bukhaari) Even, by just abstaining from cutting one’s hair or clipping one’s nails during these days, for the person who intends to sacrifice in Al Adha Eid, is an act of Sunnah and, Insha-Allah, will be rewarded accordingly. May Allah help us to be amongst those who make the most of those blessed days? Being a pilgrim or otherwise. Ameen

SUPERIORITY OF DOING GOOD DEEDS:

Every Muslim is recommended to exploit the superiority of these days by increasing his practice of good deeds, such as Nafl prayers, donations, reciting Qur’an, Dhikr (remembrance of Allah), fasting, etc. Islam emphasizes, particularly in these days, the following actions:

1. Performing Hajj and Umra are the best deeds that can be done on those days. The Prophet (SAS) said: ”Al Hajj Al-Mabrour has no reward but Jannah.” ( Bukhari and Muslim)

2. Fasting the day of Arafah for those who are not in Hajj, as it expiates the sins of two years, the year that passed and the year that follows. As for the day of Arafah, where all the pilgrims gather in that very special place, “the Mount of Arafat”, hoping that they might be amongst those who will be saved from the grueling punishment of Hellfire, The mother of the Faithful “Aisha (ra) reported that she heard the Messenger of Allah (sws) saying: “There is no day when Allah sets free more servants from hell than the day
of “Arafah”. Those who are not performing Hajj, can also share the blessings of this day through fasting; the Prophet (sws) said: “Observing the fast on the day of ‘Arafah amends the sins (committed during the past year and the subsequent one”. (Muslim)

3. The Takbeer (saying Allahu-Akbar). Ibn Omar and Abu Huraira (may Allah be pleased with them) used to go to the market saying Takbeer during the first ten days of Dhul-Hijja and the people would say it after them. It is recommended to say Takbeer after daily congregational prayers starting from Fajr prayer of the day of Arafah (the 9th) to ‘Aser prayer on the last day of Al Tashreeq (the 13th).

4. Attending the Eid prayer on the 10th day and then listening to the khutba.

5. Offer the sacrifice.

1. When Hajj was prescribed:

According to the correct view, Hajj was made obligatory in 9AH, the year of the Delegations (al-Wufood), in which Soorat Aal ‘Imraan was revealed, in which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And Hajj (pilgrimage to Makkah) to the House (Ka’bah)is a duty that mankind owes to Allaah, those who can afford the expenses (for one’s conveyance, provision and residence).” [Aal ‘Imraan 3:97]

The ruling of Hajj:
Hajj is a fareedah (obligatory duty), one of the pillars of Islam. The evidence (daleel) for this is the aayah mentioned above, and there is also evidence in the Sunnah which indicates the same thing.

Ibn ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with them both) said: the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu álayhi wa sallam) said: “Islam is built upon five (pillars): testifying that none deserves to be worshipped but Allaah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allaah, establishing regular prayer, paying zakaah, Hajj and fasting Ramadhaan.” ( Al-Bukhaari, 8; Muslim, 16).

3. Is Hajj obligatory straight away?

Yes, it should be done straight away. The evidence for this is the aayah referred to above. This (doing things straight away) is the guiding principle concerning the commands of sharee’ah. The evidence in the Sunnah which indicates this is as follows:

1. Abu Hurayrah said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) gave a sermon (khutbah) and said: “O people, Allaah has enjoined Hajj upon you so do Hajj.” (Narrated by Muslim, 1337).

2. Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever wants to go for Hajj, let him hasten to do it, because he may fall ill or some other problems may arise.” (Narrated by Abu Dawood, 1732, without the phrase “because he may…” also narrated by Ibn Maajah, 2883 and Ahmad, 1836). According to a report narrated by Ahmad “Hasten to do Hajj –i.e., the obligatory Hajj – for none of you knows what may happen to him.” These two reports strengthen one another. (See Irwaa’ al-Ghaleel by al-Albaani, 4/168). The Shaafa’is say that Hajj may be delayed, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) delayed his Hajj until 10 AH. But the answer to this is as follows:

a. He only delayed it for one year, but they say it may be delayed indefinitely!

b. He (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) wanted to purify the House (the Ka’bah) of the Mushrikeen and those who performed Hajj naked.

c. He was kept busy with the delegations that had started to come to Madeenah, one after another to announce their Islam. (See al-Sharh al-Mumti’ by Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen, 7/17, 18)

4. It is obligatory to do Hajj once in one's lifetime Abu Hurayrah said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) gave a sermon (khutbah) and said: “O people, Allaah has enjoined Hajj upon you so do Hajj.” A man said, Is it every year, O Messenger of Allaah? He remained silent until the man had said it three times, then he said, “If I say yes, it will become obligatory and you will not be able to do it.” Then he said, “Do not push me to tell you more than what I have left you with, for those who came before you were destroyed because they asked too many questions and argued with their Prophets. If I command you to do a thing, do as much of it as you can, and if I forbid you to do something, then avoid it.”
(Narrated by Muslim, 1337)

A- The virtues of Hajj

There are many ahaadeeth which speak of the virtues of Hajj, including the following:

1. From Abu Hurayrah, that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was asked which deed is best. He said, “Belief in Allaah and His Messenger.” He was asked, then what? He said, “Jihaad for the sake of Allaah.” He was asked, then what? He said, “Hajj Mabrour (an accepted Hajj).” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 26; Muslim, 83).

To have one’s Hajj accepted, one should:

a. Pay for it with halaal money
b. Keep away from evil, sin and unjust disputes during Hajj.
c. Observe all the rituals according to the Sunnah.
d. Not show off by doing Hajj; it should be purely and sincerely for the sake of Allaah.
e. Not follow it with acts of disobedience and sin.

2. Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: I heard the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: “Whoever does Hajj for the sake of Allaah and does not have sexual relations (with his
wife), commit sin, or dispute unjustly (during the Hajj), will come back like the day his mother gave birth to him.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1449; Muslim, 1350).

3. Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “ ‘Umrah is an expiation for the time between it and the previous ‘Umrah, and an accepted hajj has no less a reward than Paradise.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1683; Muslim, 1349).

4. ‘Aa’ishah, the Mother of the Believers (may Allaah be pleased with her) said: I said, O Messenger of Allaah, can we not go out on campaigns and fight in jihaad with you? He said, “But the best and most beautiful of jihaad is Hajj, an accepted pilgrimage.” ‘Aa’ishah said, I never stopped going for Hajj after I heard that from the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1762).

5. ‘Amr ibn al-‘Aas (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Hajj wipes out whatever (sins) came before it.” (Narrated by Muslim, 121).

6. ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Mas’ood said: the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Keep on doing Hajj and ‘Umrah, for they eliminate poverty and sin just as the bellows eliminate impurities from iron and gold and silver.” (Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 810; al-Nasaa’i, 2631. The hadeeth was classed as saheeh by al-Albaani – may Allaah have mercy on him – in al-Silsilah al-Saheehah, 1200).

7. Ibn ‘Umar reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The one who fights for the sake of Allaah and the pilgrim who goes for Hajj or ‘Umrah are all guests of Allaah. He called them and they responded; they ask of Him and He will give them.” (Narrated by Ibn Maajah, 2893. The hadeeth is hasan and was classed as such by Shaykh al- Albaani in al-Silsilat al-Saheehah, 1820).

B. The benefits of Hajj

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “That they may witness things that are of benefit to them.” [al-Hajj 22:28] The benefits are both worldly and religious (spiritual). With regard to the religious benefits, the one who goes for Hajj earns the pleasure of his Lord, and comes back with all his sins forgiven. He also earns the immense reward which he cannot earn anywhere else than in these places. One prayer in al-
Masjid al-Haraam, for example, is equal to a hundred thousand prayers elsewhere, and Tawaaf and Saa’ee cannot be done anywhere except in these places.

Other benefits include meeting other Muslims and discussing their circumstances, and meeting scholars, learning from them and asking them about one’s problems. Worldly benefits include trade and business, and other kinds of earnings that have to do with Hajj.

C. The ruling on Hajj and its spiritual effects on a person There are many virtues of the rituals of Hajj, and much wisdom behind them. Whoever is blessed with proper understanding of them is blessed with much goodness.

For example:
1. When a person travels to carry out the rituals of Hajj, he is reminded of his journey to Allaah and the Hereafter. When he travels, he leaves behind his dear friends, wife, children and homeland, and the journey to the Hereafter is like that.

2. The one who goes on this journey equips himself with enough provision to help him reach the sacred land, so let him remember that for his journey to his Lord, he needs to have sufficient provision to help him get there safely. Concerning this, Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “And take a provision (with you) for the journey, but the best provision is At-Taqwaa (piety, righteousness, etc.).” [al-Baqarah 2:197]

3. Travelling is a kind of torment, and the same is true of the journey to the Hereafter, only much more so. Ahead of man there is his dying, death, the grave, the gathering, the accounting, the scales and al-Siraat, followed by either Paradise or Hell. The blessed one will be the one whom Allaah saves.

4. When the pilgrim puts on the two garments of his Ihraam, he cannot help but be reminded of the shroud in which he will be wrapped [after he dies]. This prompts him to give up disobedience and sin. Just as he has given up his regular clothing [for Hajj], so he has to give up sin. Just as he has put on two clean, white garments, he has to make his heart clean and white [pure], and keep his faculties clean and pure, uncontaminated by the stain of sin and disobedience.

5. When he says “Labbayk Allaahumma labbayk” at the Meeqaat [station of entering ihraam], he means that he has responded to his Lord, so how can he insist on still sinning and not respond to his Lord’s call to give it up? When he says “Labbayk Allaahumma labbayk”, he means, “I am responding to Your prohibition of it and this is the time I am giving it up.” 6. When he gives up haraam things during his Ihraam, and keeps himself busy with the talbiyah and dhikr, this shows him how the Muslim should be He trains himself to give up some things which in principle are halaal, but Allaah has forbidden them to him at this time [during his Ihraam], so how can he violate the prohibitions of Allaah by doing things which are haraam
at all times and in all places?

7.When he enters the Sacred House of Allaah, that Allaah has made a sanctuary for mankind, he remembers the sanctuary of the Day of Resurrection, which no one can reach without striving hard and making a
concerted effort. The greatest thing that keeps a person safe on the Day of Resurrection is Tawheed (monotheism) and avoiding Shirk (associating others with Allaah). Concerning this, Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “It is those who believe (in the Oneness of Allaah and worship none but Him Alone) and confuse not their belief with Zulm (wrong, i.e. by worshipping others besides Allaah), for them (only) there is security and they are the guided.” [al-An’aam 6:81]

8.Kissing the Black Stone, which is the first ritual to be undertaken, teaches the visitor to honour the Sunnah and not to oppose the laws of Allaah with his feeble reasoning. He recognizes that there is wisdom and goodness behind the laws and rituals which Allaah has prescribed for mankind, and he trains himself to submit himself totally to his Lord, may He be exalted. Concerning this, ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with him) said, after he kissed the Black Stone: “I know that you are only a stone and that you can neither benefit nor harm. If I had not seen the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) kiss you, I would not have kissed you!” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1520; Muslim, 1720).

9.When he does Tawaaf, he is reminded of his father Ibraaheem (peace be upon him), who built the House to be a place of resort for mankind and a place of safety, and that he called them to perform pilgrimage to this House. And our Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) also called them to perform pilgrimage to this House. Moosa, Yoonus and ‘Eesaa (peace be upon them) also performed pilgrimage to this House. This House was a symbol and a meeting place for these Prophets; how could it be
otherwise, when Allaah had commanded Ibraheem (peace be upon him) to build it and venerate it?

10. When he drinks the water of Zamzam, he is reminded of the blessing which Allaah has bestowed upon mankind in the form of this blessed water, from which millions of people have drunk throughout the long ages, but it has never dried up. He is encouraged to make du’aa’ when he drinks it by the hadeeth which has been reported from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) “The water of Zamzam is for whatever it is drunk for.” (Narrated by Ibn Maajah, 3062; Ahmad, 14435. This is a hasan hadeeth; classed as hasan by Ibn al-Qayyim – may Allaah have mercy on him – in Zaad al-Ma’aad, 4/320).

11. and how she ran back and forth between al-Safaa’ and al-Marwah, searching for water which would save her from what she was suffering, and especially so that she could give her little son – Ismaa’eel – water to drink. Since this woman was patient in the face of this adversity and turned to her Lord. this teaches man that doing this is better and more appropriate. When a man remembers the struggle and patience of this woman, it makes it easier for him to bear his own problems, and a woman who is of her own kind will
find her problems easier to bear.

12. The standing (wuqoof) in ‘Arafaah reminds the pilgrim of the throngs of people on the Day of Gathering. If the pilgrim feels tired from being in a crowd of thousands, how will it be in the crowds of barefoot, naked, uncircumcised people, standing for fifty thousand years?

13. When he throws the pebbles at the Jamaraat, the Muslim trains himself to obey Allaah unquestioningly. Even if he does not understand the reason and wisdom behind this throwing (ramy), and cannot make the connection between rulings and their purpose, this is a manifestation of complete submission (‘uboodiyyah) to Allaah.

14. When he slaughters his sacrifice (hady), he is reminded of the great event when our father Ibraaheem submitted to the command of Allaah to sacrifice his only son Ismaa’eel, after he had grown up and become a help to him. He is also reminded that there is no room for emotions which go against the commands and prohibitions of Allaah. This teaches him to respond to what Allaah commands, as Ismaa’eel said (interpretation of the eaning): “ ‘O my father! Do that which you are commanded. In shaa Allaah (if Allaah wills), you will find me of al-saabireen (the patient ones).’” [al-Saaffaat 37:102].

15. When he comes out of his Ihraam and things that had been forbidden to him once again become permissible, this teaches him about the consequences of patience and that after hardship comes ease. The one who responds to the call of Allaah will have joy and happiness, and this joy cannot be known by anyone except those who have tasted the sweetness of obedience, such as the joy felt by the one who fasts when he breaks his fast, or by the one who prays Qiyaam during the last part of the night, after he has
finished praying.

17. When he has finished performing all the rituals of Hajj as they were prescribed by Allaah and in the manner that Allaah loves, he has the hope that his Lord will forgive him all his sins, as the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) promised in the hadeeth, “Whoever does Hajj for the sake of Allaah and does not have sexual relations (with his wife), commit sin, or dispute unjustly (during the hajj), will come back like the day his mother gave birth to him.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1449; Muslim, 1350). This invites him to start a new page in his life, free of sin.

18. When he comes back to his wife and children, and experiences the joy of meeting them again, this reminds him of the greater joy of meeting them in Paradise. This also teaches him that the greatest loss is losing oneself and one’s family on the Day of Resurrection, as Allaah says (interpretation of the
meaning): “The losers are those who will lose themselves and their families on the Day of Resurrection. Verily, that will be a manifest loss!” [al- Zumar 39:15].

kafir, what exactly is your definition of a kafir?

These Hadiths demonstrate that Islam is militant and not peaceful.

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 196:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' and whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' his life and property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to forgive him.)"

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 179:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Turks; people with small eyes, red faces, and flat noses. Their faces will look like shields coated with leather. The Hour will not be established till you fight with people whose shoes are made of hair."

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 176:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:
Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.' "
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html#004.052.260

Some 10 billion $ are wasted every year on the pagan practice of the hajj. Millions of Muslim children could use this money to get educated. I suggest the hajj be stopped and the money go to the Palestinians who are crying for western aid. There is no reason the Muslim Palestinians could not get or should not get money from Muslims instead.

Sanjeev,

Well said!

This is nonsensical propaganda wrapped in flowery speech for a murderous cult that is attempting to pretend a destructive belief system is religion.

Re:The Ka’ba
The Ka’ba is a cubical stone structure in Mecca, Saudi Arabia that is considered by the followers of the religion of Islam to be their holiest place. It is their Kiblah: the spot to which they should face during their five daily prayers if their prayers are to have a chance of being accepted. It is built from granite rock and its dimensions are 13.10 m. high by 11.03 m. by 12.72 m. Inside it and in a niche in the wall there are eight small rocks the size of palm dates that are a part of a one time much larger black rock. Muslims believe that the rock came down from Heaven as a white stone but changed black by human sin. Geologists believe it to be a meteorite. The structure has a door made of gold that is now worth over four million dollars. The edifice is covered with a black velvet cloth with Quranic verses and is replaced annually.

This structure is a relic from Pre-Islamic times when it was used very much like today as a pilgrimage destination for the different Arab tribes of the Arabian Peninsula. The only difference is that before Islam it housed many of the idols of the different Arab deities. The Arab prophet, Mohammad, wanted at first to do away with this institution, but met a stiff opposition from his own tribe, Quraish, mainly on economical grounds. He compromised by incorporating it in his belief system. The people of Mecca were mostly merchants who looked at the Ka’ba as a tourist attraction that brought in business that was the sole source of income to that community and remained as such till the discovery of oil in the early 20th Century.

The Muslims further enhanced its appeal to the fast increasing Muslim population of the world by building a mythology around it very much like people do today with their tourist attractions. The Muslims claim that it was built by the Old Testament figure, the Patriarch Abraham, who is traditionally believed to be the father of Isaac and Ishmael, the fathers of the Jews and Arabs of Arabia, respectively. Furthermore God protected the structure from destruction in 570AD from an invading Ethiopian army by sending a flock of birds that showered the invading army with molten pebbles. Historians, on the other hand, explain the retreat of the Ethiopian army to the spread of an epidemic of small pox among the troops. Besides, Mohammad made the pilgrimage to the Ka’ba as one of the five pillars of his religion and further sweetened the pot by claiming a visit to that structure would erase all sins. The rituals that Muslims perform today around the Ka’ba during their pilgrimage, such as circumambulating around it in a counterclockwise direction for seven times, kissing the black stone, etc. are the same exact rituals performed by the Arab tribes in Pre-Islamic times.

The Patriarch, Abraham, could not have built that structure for many reasons. First he was never beyond the Egyptian delta. His descendents, the Ishmaelite Arab tribes, resided mostly in northern Sinai and the Syrian desert during Moses time in about 1500 BC. i.e. 500 years after Abraham’s time, and their holy place to which they did their pilgrimage was a place in the vicinity of Beer Sheba in Northern Sinai. Eratosthenes (6th Century BC), Herodotus (5th Century BC), Hristopoulos (4th Century BC) and Agatharcides (Second Century BC) visited the area and none mentioned Mecca. As late as 30 BC the geographer Strabo who visited the whole area between Sinai and Yemen and who wrote an exhaustive description of the region, including names of places and tribes, never mentioned Mecca, even though he mentioned names of tiny hamlets in the vicinity of present day Mecca. The first known mention of Mecca was in the 4th Century AD i.e. 2500 years from Abraham‘s time. Secondly there were at least twenty three similar structures in Arabia at the time of Mohammad. It seemed that each tribe built its own Ka’ba to house its idols. The Mecca Ka’ba had in addition to the many pagan statues, an inscription of Mary and Jesus on its inner walls which indicates that the Meccans used the place to attract as many of the Arab tribes as possible since their livelihood depended on tourism.

What Mr. Patel is writing is pure work of fiction (that Mohamed was a man of peace and compassion).

Even if we ignore all the violence, sex (9 wives-including a 6 year old child), terror attributed to him by many learned scholars, how can we ignore the daily incidents of terror committed by his followers today?

Just read any daily newspaper, and it would be a lucky day for mankind if Muslims in some part of the world have not blown up innocent lives in the name of their religion.

The panelists article describing Mohamed as compassionate, tolerant, peaceful is as believable as calling Pamela Anderson a virgin.

I am not going to quote from scholarly works of Robert Spencer, Rushdie or Ayaan but from Journal of Military History (about a year ago) which said Mohammed and his fellow insurgents looted and many times killed civilian caravans passing through their territories.

During wars (none of them were described as defensive) Mohamed and his men stole body aromors and weapons from dead bodies.

It also said peace treaties were signed by Mohamed only when he was in a weaker position (to buy more time to kill the enemy). He was described as a great motivational commander who distributed the loot equally among all his fighters. This was rare during those times and attracted many poor people to Islam who felt that they would be treated fairly.

It is shocking to see Eboo Patel's articles showing pride and honor in this very violent and discriminatory religion.

How can an American be proud of a ritual that is not all inclusive?

The problem with the so called liberalized Muslims of the world, like Mr. Patel, is that they only want secularism and freedom in non-Muslim nations but not in 50 intolerant Islamic nations including Saudi Arabia. Many places Muslims are in minority they are blowing up innocent civilians every day to create more 100 percent Islamic nations (Thailand, Phillipines, Kashmir, Palestine....)

Why aren't non muslims allowed in Mecca Eboo? Tell the truth.. it is because we are filthy and muslims are superior isn't it?

Muslims are the biggest biggots.

Alex:
You write:
"Why do some of you have such a big problem with Muslims only entering Mecca, and especially the Mosque where the Ka'aba is? It is considered sacred. .... I have a problem with Islamofascists, not Muslims making pilgrimages."

It is not just the Ka'aba is it? It is the whole city of Mecca, and then what is the reason for it? Do you know how filthy the Kafirs are? This is from an islamic site:
http://www.al-islam.org/laws/najisthings.html
84. * The following ten things are essentially najis:

* Urine
* Faeces
* Semen
* Dead body
* Blood
* Dog
* Pig
* Kafir
* Alcoholic liquors
* The sweat of an animal who persistently eats najasat.

You see the non-muslims are excluded not because of any notion of "sacred" but because they are as filthy as urine and sh*t. And we have Americans touting this ritual which calls their fellow citizens as filthy as piss and sh*t as a sign of spreading love and harmony.

So tell me Alex, when was the last you were told how filthy you are because you do not believe in someone else's religion?

So what is the purpose of this article? I don't get it. Are you trying to tell us by the behavior of Muslims among Muslims about how tolerant they are about Muslims of different skin tones? Oh maybe you are trying to establish the tolerance thresh-hold of Muslims.

Well allow me to retort! You are touching the friiggin tip of the iceberg with a ten thousand foot pole of how much non-Muslims despise your Islamic ways. Just as the silence of 'moderate' Muslims amounts to tacit support to terrorists. So does the silence of the non-Muslims amount to tacit judgements about your faith and its pathological nature.

By the way I heard that in Muslim faith, if a bride is asked if she accepts the groom to be her lawful wedded husband, and if she remains silent (not wanting to invite being raped or beaten up but not agreeing at the same time), the silence is taken to amount to acceptance?! Long live Islam!

So what is the purpose of this article? I don't get it. Are you trying to tell us by the behavior of Muslims among Muslims about how tolerant they are about Muslims of different skin tones? Oh maybe you are trying to establish the tolerance thresh-hold of Muslims.

Well allow me to retort! You are touching the friiggin tip of the iceberg with a ten thousand foot pole of how much non-Muslims despise your Islamic ways. Just as the silence of 'moderate' Muslims amounts to tacit support to terrorists. So does the silence of the non-Muslims amount to tacit judgements about your faith and its pathological nature.

By the way I heard that in Muslim faith, if a bride is asked if she accepts the groom to be her lawful wedded husband, and if she remains silent (not wanting to invite being raped or beaten up but not agreeing at the same time), the silence is taken to amount to acceptance?! Long live Islam!

So what is the purpose of this article? I don't get it. Are you trying to tell us by the behavior of Muslims among Muslims about how tolerant they are about Muslims of different skin tones? Oh maybe you are trying to establish the tolerance thresh-hold of Muslims.

Well allow me to retort! You are touching the friiggin tip of the iceberg with a ten thousand foot pole of how much non-Muslims despise your Islamic ways. Just as the silence of 'moderate' Muslims amounts to tacit support to terrorists. So does the silence of the non-Muslims amount to tacit judgements about your faith and its pathological nature.

By the way I heard that in Muslim faith, if a bride is asked if she accepts the groom to be her lawful wedded husband, and if she remains silent (not wanting to invite being raped or beaten up but not agreeing at the same time), the silence is taken to amount to acceptance?! Long live Islam!

Dear Muslim Friend,

I care enough about your soul to tell you the truth even if it hurts. People did they same for me in the past when I was a non believer. I did not like it but it was necessary in order for me to see the truth. Looking back I see what they did as an act of love.

Islam is a religion of man trying to be righteous enough for God in his own efforts. This is known as self righteousness. No amount of bowing down five times a day towards Mecca in prayer, giving alms, stating the that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his prophet, making pilgrimages, or fasting can make a person righteous. Jesus taught the Pharisees that it was not the outward religious show that made a person right with God.

In fact He taught that people need righteousness that comes from God because humans do not process it within themselves. A person can be made right with God only through faith in Jesus as the Son of God, and that He shed His blood to cleanse sinners, and that He arose from the dead to conquer death on behalf of man. If a person will repent and believe those truths God will credit His righteousness to that persons account. Therefore it is seen that:

Islam is based on Man's Self Righteousness. This is an insult to God as it rejects Jesus as the Son of God and His sacrificial work on the cross and His gift of righteousness for sinners.

Christianity is based on God's righteousness given to all those who have faith in Jesus the Son of God. We are not good enough but God judges our sin in Jesus Christ and gives us new life in His death, burial, and resurrection.

Again I do not say these things to insult Muslims but to speak the truth in love so that as many Muslims as possible will know the truth and escape from the lie of Islam.

Alex, How do you know that Mecca is holy? How much do you really know about Islam? Do you know that the Koranic imperative is to conquer the whole world for Allah?

Re;Kaaba
The Ka’ba is a cubical stone structure in Mecca, Saudi Arabia that is considered by the followers of the religion of Islam to be their holiest place. It is their Kiblah: the spot to which they should face during their five daily prayers if their prayers are to have a chance of being accepted. It is built from granite rock and its dimensions are 13.10 m. high by 11.03 m. by 12.72 m. Inside it and in a niche in the wall there are eight small rocks the size of palm dates that are a part of a one time much larger black rock. Muslims believe that the rock came down from Heaven as a white stone but changed black by human sin. Geologists believe it to be a meteorite. The structure has a door made of gold that is now worth over four million dollars. The edifice is covered with a black velvet cloth with Quranic verses and is replaced annually.

This structure is a relic from Pre-Islamic times when it was used very much like today as a pilgrimage destination for the different Arab tribes of the Arabian Peninsula. The only difference is that before Islam it housed many of the idols of the different Arab deities. The Arab prophet, Mohammad, wanted at first to do away with this institution, but met a stiff opposition from his own tribe, Quraish, mainly on economical grounds. He compromised by incorporating it in his belief system. The people of Mecca were mostly merchants who looked at the Ka’ba as a tourist attraction that brought in business that was the sole source of income to that community and remained as such till the discovery of oil in the early 20th Century.

The Muslims further enhanced its appeal to the fast increasing Muslim population of the world by building a mythology around it very much like people do today with their tourist attractions. The Muslims claim that it was built by the Old Testament figure, the Patriarch Abraham, who is traditionally believed to be the father of Isaac and Ishmael, the fathers of the Jews and Arabs of Arabia, respectively. Furthermore God protected the structure from destruction in 570AD from an invading Ethiopian army by sending a flock of birds that showered the invading army with molten pebbles. Historians, on the other hand, explain the retreat of the Ethiopian army to the spread of an epidemic of small pox among the troops. Besides, Mohammad made the pilgrimage to the Ka’ba as one of the five pillars of his religion and further sweetened the pot by claiming a visit to that structure would erase all sins. The rituals that Muslims perform today around the Ka’ba during their pilgrimage, such as circumambulating around it in a counterclockwise direction for seven times, kissing the black stone, etc. are the same exact rituals performed by the Arab tribes in Pre-Islamic times.

The Patriarch, Abraham, could not have built that structure for many reasons. First he was never beyond the Egyptian delta. His descendents, the Ishmaelite Arab tribes, resided mostly in northern Sinai and the Syrian desert during Moses time in about 1500 BC. i.e. 500 years after Abraham’s time, and their holy place to which they did their pilgrimage was a place in the vicinity of Beer Sheba in Northern Sinai. Eratosthenes (6th Century BC), Herodotus (5th Century BC), Hristopoulos (4th Century BC) and Agatharcides (Second Century BC) visited the area and none mentioned Mecca. As late as 30 BC the geographer Strabo who visited the whole area between Sinai and Yemen and who wrote an exhaustive description of the region, including names of places and tribes never mentioned Mecca, even though he mentioned names of tiny hamlets in the vicinity of present day Mecca. The first known mention of Mecca was in the 4th Century AD i.e. 2500 years from Abraham‘s time. Secondly there were at least twenty three similar structures in Arabia at the time of Mohammad. It seemed that each tribe built such a structure to house their idols. The Mecca Ka’ba had in addition to the many pagan statues, an inscription of Mary and Jesus on its walls which indicates that the Meccans used the place to attract as many of the Arab tribes as possible; Christian as well as Pagans, since their livelihood depended on tourism.

Why do some of you have such a big problem with Muslims only entering Mecca, and especially the Mosque where the Ka'aba is? It is considered sacred. Do you hold anything sacred yourself? I am not Muslim, but I do hold things sacred myself. I can appreciate the respect that are owed to places where those of like faith can meet together and commune with their creator. I have a problem with Islamofascists, not Muslims making pilgrimages.

Monday December 17, 2007
TURKEY: CATHOLIC PRIEST STABBED
Youthful attacker reportedly affected by anti-Christian TV series.

ISTANBUL, December 17 (Compass Direct News) – A 19-year-old Muslim youth stabbed an Italian priest in the stomach yesterday after Sunday services outside a Catholic church in Turkey. Father Adriano Franchini, 65, was hospitalized overnight in the Aegean city of Izmir, and hospital authorities expected to discharge him today, the Anatolia News Agency reported. According to the daily Hurriyet newspaper, the arrested assailant admitted in his statement to the police that he had been influenced by a recent episode of the popular television serial drama “Kurtlar Vadisi” (Valley of the Wolves). The series caricatures Christian missionaries as political “infiltrators” who pay poor families to convert to Christianity. The attack comes amid a growing climate of violence against Turkey’s Christian minority population.

NIGERIA: TEN KILLED, THREE CHURCHES SET ABLAZE IN BAUCHI

BAUCHI, Nigeria, December 13 (Compass Direct News) – Ten persons have been killed and three churches set on fire after Muslim high school students in this northern Nigerian city began a rampage on Tuesday (December 11) that spilled into the city. Today tensions were still high in the area.

An eyewitness at the high school said the Muslim students attacked their Christian peers after unidentified people pulled out two foundation blocks of a high school mosque under construction.

Area Muslims joined the attacking students, resulting in the deaths and damages in the city, including the burning of dozens of homes belonging to Christians.

The identity of nine of the 10 people killed has been kept secret as the Bauchi state government has ordered security agents to remove the corpses and bury them in a common grave. Eyewitnesses told Compass they were buried this morning.

The 10th person killed was a Christian security agent with the State Security Service, identified by eyewitnesses only by his surname, Bogoro, a member of the Church of Christ in Nigeria in Yelwa.

The three churches set aflame in Bauchi after Muslim students began attacking Christian students at the Government Day Secondary School (also known as Baba Tanko Secondary School) in the Yelwa Tudu area of Bauchi are Pentecostal: Elim Church, Redeemed Christian Church of God, and the Assemblies of God Church.

In addition, area Muslims set fire to dozens of houses belonging to Christians. Among the houses burned was that of the Rev. Umaru Sule, associate pastor of the Evangelical Church of West Africa (ECWA ) of Yelwa Makaranta, and that of the Rev. Maina Joshua of Kagadama.

The Jews were good writers, they documented everything. Their documents live on to this day. The Bible is based upon Jewish scripture. There is absolutely no proof in Jewish/Christian scripture that Abraham laid the foundations to the Kaabah. If there was any indication of that then it would have first been a Jewish place of worship and not the Kafirs. The pagans aka Kafirs holy place was traditionally the Kaabah, Mohammed the looter is the only one who brings about this silly claim that Abraham built the Kaabah. Abraham for all practical purposes was a poor goat herder.

Anyways, when Mohammed looted the Kabah he smashed all the valuable art that was present there and made that place his own.

Now, millions of people go there for "pilgrimage" this is where after the Hajj processions are over several million animals will have been beheaded by "peace" loving Muslims. In the past so many animals were killed and bulldozed over that now Saudis have arranged special meat processing and disposal facilities.

After all is said and done it still does not change the fact that Mohammed stole the pagan’s place of worship and formed his own cult. Makaah has no co-relation to American History - where ALL are welcome baring NONE. Unless you have in mind what Mohammed your prophet did, Labbayk USA - here I am and soon we'll take over. Soon, kafirs will pay jizziya and their places of worship will be destroyed or converted to Mosques.

What's the Difference?:

I believe all religions are by their definition exclusionary and itching for a fight. However, some have progressed a little farther than others in terms of human rights, creating less suffering, etc.

The difference between Salt Lake City and Saudi Arabia is huge. One is silly in its religiosity and one is downright scary. Salt Lake City is still in America, a country you don't have to declare your religion before entering (Jews and atheists aren't allowed in Saudi Arabia).

That's a terrible arguments. Sorry.

ATS

WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE?:

I have news for you. You don't need a visa to go to Israel.

http://www.passportsandvisas.com/visas/Israel.asp

Offensive War

"I have been ordered by God to fight with people till they bear testimony to the fact that there is no God but Allah and that Mohammed is his messenger, and that they establish prayer and pay Zakat (money). If they do it, their blood and their property are safe from me" (see Bukhari Vol. I, p. 13).

Azhar’s Scholars in Egypt
In his book, "Jurisprudence in Muhammad’s Biography", the Azhar scholar, Dr. Muhammad Sa’id Ramadan al-Buti says the following (page 134, 7th edition):
"The Holy War, as it is known in Islamic Jurisprudence, is basically an offensive war. This is the duty of Muslims in every age when the needed military power becomes available to them. This is the phase in which the meaning of Holy War has taken its final form. Thus the apostle of God said: ‘I was commanded to fight the people until they believe in God and his message ..."’

Suyuti in his book استنباط التنزيل (Istenbat al tanzeel) says: “Every thing in the Qur'an about forgiveness is abrogated by verse 9:5.” Al-Shawkani in his book السيل الجرار (Alsaylu Jarar 4:518-519) says: “Islam is unanimous about fighting the unbelievers and forcing them to Islam or submitting and paying Jiziah (special tax paid only by Christians or Jews) or being killed. [The verses] about forgiving them are abrogated unanimously by the obligation of fighting in any case.”

What's the difference:

You may want to read the take of a catholic on entry to Mormon temples:
http://journals.aol.com/desertwolflv/Aarons/entries/2004/05/01/a-roman-catholic-inside-a-mormon-temple/424

Anyone can enter Salt lake City. Anyone can enter th e the Mormon temple grounds, Anyone can enter the Temple building, the only place reserved is the Temple room itself.
As the catholic said in the article:
"I’m forever Catholic but I’ll respect any established religion that doesn’t advocating killing me for not believing in it."

American muslims get visas to Israel. When you have kids being blown off school buses, it is prudent to make sure that you know who you are letting into the country. Wish the American Government had been that prudent.

ATS- Why don't you try going to Salt Lake City in America and entering the Mormon Temple?
Or try getting a visa to Israel?

are we all so happy that his parents are performing the required rites of the cult of murder and death.
boo boy is one of those that trye to put a happy face on the islamic cult of murder. read the koran. moho, who had intercourse with a 9 year old, he married her when she was 6 and their sex did not include intercourse until she reached the old age of 9, pretennded to be peaceful in the first part of the koran, which is written in chrono order.
so he decided he ws part of tha abrahmic people [children of abraham] so that he could force the jews to accept him as the missiah. unfortunately, from 2500 bc - when abrahan lived, until 580 ad [or there abouts] there was not one shread of proof that moho the child rapist was related to any jew. why would he say that? SO HE COULD STEAL WHAT THE JEWS HAD AND PRETEND HE WAS ENTITLED.
the translation of the work islam means SUBMISSION not peace.
so then he spent the rest of his life murdering every jew, christian and hindu he came accross - unless they bribed him to say alive. when their money ran out he kille them. islam stole from other cultures and pretended it was islamic. like the zero 0. they stole it from the hindu's who had it around 400 ad. but i digress.
the koran - tells islaimcs that they have a duty to convert. the duty of those not islamic is to be converted or die. pretty simple. as a result of that the islamics can kidnapp, torture, cut off body parts, hold for ransom [sound familiar they are still doing it] rape and murder. when an islamic tells you that the koran forbids killing the innocent they forget to mention that under islamic law only another islamic can be innocent, so the rest of us and out parents, children, wives, they are open targets.
now dont get me wrong, there are bad people in every religion, but islam is the only religion that demands evil. to do what a nazi did is evil to every religion in the world, except islam. they still do what the nazi;s did, and do it in the name of islam.
there is also the hadith, sort of like the gosepel, acts of the apos, and the new testiment rolled up into one. it is the actual deeds of moho the chhild rapist. islam teaches the moho was the only perfect man and that anything he did was ok for them. so you can have sex with a 9 year old in an islamic country becasue moho did it. you can lie cheat and steal because moho did it. remember what i wrote about only islamics are innocent - well moho sent a man out to murder a poetess as she brest fed her child. she has murdered with a knife. when moho heard of it he said "who goats will not butt their heads together over it." an islamic way of saying "who cares".
islamics can lie, denounce their own faith, drink, go to other churches, anything, as long as the ultimate reason is the eventual spread of islam. like some of the 19 on 911.
wo when an islamic tells you with a smile that he is your friend HE IS LYING.
THE KORAN DEMANDS YOUR DEATH IF YOU DO NOT CONVERT and all the smiles, even from boo boy, will never change that.
a peaceful islamic is like a peaceful tolerant nazi, it does not happen.

Victoria,
You quote Quran 5:48

"We have appointed a law and a practice for every one of you. Had God willed, He would have made you a single community, but He wanted to test you regarding what has come to you. So, compete with each other in doing GOOD. Every one of you will return to God, and He will inform you regarding the things about which you differed. (Qur’an, 5:48)"

The next verse (Quran 5.49) completes the thought:

005.049
YUSUFALI: And this (He commands): Judge thou between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, but beware of them lest they beguile thee from any of that (teaching) which Allah hath sent down to thee. And if they turn away, be assured that for some of their crime it is Allah's purpose to punish them. And truly most men are rebellious.

Asim Ma.

I know I am ignorant and profoundly so on many a subjects and issues. I do try to learn, and I can only learn by asking questions. So please, if you do not mind, take a few minutes of your time and educate me and other many many ignorant Americans. I thought the purpose of these pages was for us to learn what we do not know about faiths. I really would like to know.

Calling me ignorant, hateful, pathetic, or whatever does not answer the question I have asked. It merely shows that it is an uncomfortable question, but a valid one. So if anyone has an answer, I certainly would like to read it.

Dear Ross,
A non-muslim found in Mecca or Medina, even if he strayed accidentlyinto these holy cities will be taken several miles into the desert and left to his/her own devices. No one can make it back. In all faireness, there are plenty of signs informing you that some roads are muslim-only. We take our form of apartheid seriously.

Dear Ross,
A non-muslim found in Mecca or Medina, even if he strayed accidentlyinto these holy cities will be taken several miles into the desert and left to his/her own devices. No one can make it back. In all faireness, there are plenty of signs informing you that some roads are muslim-only. We take our form of apartheid seriously.

Religious belief, of any kind, becomes by definition, closed, separative and ultimately violent. Once you take the first step into childish irrational belief systems, any subsequent violent behavior can be justified or, just as bad, tolerated.
The question is not whether there are "nice" Christians, Muslim or Jews, and "bad" versions.
The question is why do you think you need belief? Why do you want to follow? Why do you need a book or a priest to be generous and kind?
Believers believe out of fear or greed. They want to avoid something or get something.
All the money spent supporting preachers, priests, rabbis, imams, ayatollahs, churches, mosques and synagogues could be spent directly helping people. Believers give because they want to get, which is not giving. It’s a business transaction.
All the talk of tolerance and compassion is babble to make believers feel better.
It’s like prayer. It’s a placebo. It lets you think you’ve done something when you’ve done exactly nothing but talk to the air.
Terrorists at least do something, ugly, hateful and despicable as they are. The good news is, terrorists are revealing religious belief for what it is. The Christians tried terrorism during the Crusades. Now the Muslims are taking their turn at displaying the ignorance of religious belief.
You want to do something. Take the first step. Walk away from religious belief. Life is better on the sane side.

A. Kafir:

U are profoundly ignorant as u are Pathatic-otherwise I wwould invest a few minutes and respond to u.

Kafir- You bring up very good point and really caught Mr. Eboo Patel lies about peaceful and tolerant Islam.

How can he call this religion compassionate and peaceful when most of his own countrymen (and women) can not even visit these places he is writing about today?

Even most of his countrymen from the country he was born in can not visit the place. And we all know what Quraan asks the Muslims to do to Kafirs and idolators!!

Sharon, Nelson,

Asking questions that are honest and uncomfortable is not being unreasonable or immature. Eboo compares the American history of finally dismantling discrimination and hate ... that is what civil rights laws stand for. He is an American. I am asking him as an american, as to how can he accept the blatant and total insult to his fellow citizens? Ask yourself would you go somewhere if your fellow citizens were considered too filthy to even step into the city? Would you patronize an establishment where blacks or Asians are not allowed? Why should we as Americans tolerate a medieval ritual where 80% of humanity has been decreed to be too filthy to even pray to supposedly the God of us all?

So instead of trying to label others as hateful, why don't you tell me what is it that I have asked that is hateful?

10 more Pakis blown up today by peace loving Muslims with more beheadings in Thailand, Kashmir..

Saudi Arabia- thei birthplace of prophet- the most intolerant nation on earth ( but thank allah for pardoning the rape victim today). And a non-Muslim will not be allowed into Mecca, Medina.

If Mohammed was such a peaceful, compassionate man, then how come Islam spread so violently in India (your homeland)and all over Asia, Europe with brutal invasions and mass killings of natives?

"We have appointed a law and a practice for every one of you. Had God willed, He would have made you a single community, but He wanted to test you regarding what has come to you. So, compete with each other in doing GOOD. Every one of you will return to God, and He will inform you regarding the things about which you differed. (Qur’an, 5:48)"

thank you brother patel for your beautiful snapshot of islam

I grew up (an infidel) about 30 minutes from Mecca. Right before you get there, the freeway splits into the Muslim lane and Non-Muslim lane. How do you relate that to the Civil Rights movement? It sounds more like Jim Crow America to me. In fact, your blessed Arabia still has separate waiting rooms, separate parts of the bus, and separate right. Exactly what the Civil Rights movement was fighting.

Having grown up in the seat of Wahhabi Islam, I find your columns trite and absurd. I find this column particularly offensive because you dare to compare the arguably most oppressive religion in the world to the Civil Rights movement. You are clearly irrational and delusional and my respect for the Post goes down every time I read you.

Hmm, perhaps I'll write a column comparing the Crusades to the Underground Railroad... It makes about as much sense.

An ex-expat of Arabia

Eboo Patel claims:

---
God sent Muhammad a revelation about relations between different communities in a diverse society:

O mankind, We have created you
male and female, and appointed you
races and tribes, that you may know
one another. Surely the noblest
among you in the sight of God is
the most righteous.
---

Sounds good, but who do Moslems belive is the noblest and most righteous?

As a Christian I consider Jesus the noblest and way ahead of Muhammad in terms of righteousness, a belief that could get me into big trouble in Islamic ruled countries.

Thank You so much Mr.Patel for this article.

Thank you Eboo Patel for this article and please excuse the posters that are clearly rude.Not all nonmuslims are hate filled and immature.Not all nonmuslims refuse to try and understand religions other than their own.There are many people that want to see people of all nations try and get along and have peaceful relations regardless of nationality,skin color or which country they live in or their religion.

In all faiths, there are tales of peace and redemption. That at this time, the time of the Hajj, men, women and children, come together in the sight of G-d, without the trappings of the other life, must be a truly amazing sight.
As a nation, and a world, we must become tolerant of the other, be able to recognize the transcendent in all of the many faiths of the world. For, if we do not, the world is doomed to strife and fear, just as we are today experiencing.
This overwhelming need to find fault with another's faith, and to declare that my "faith" is better than yours is going to tear our world apart. That is why, there needs to be groups, who make it a point, to show that all are alike, we all strive for peace and harmony. We all strive for the welfare of the one's less fortunate than ourselves, and make pilgrimages to places that mean something to our faith.
We have within our grasp, the means to learn of the "other," to know beyond a shadow of doubt that all are one in the sight of G-d. In the US, these means are school and learning of another's culture and traditions.
It is for shame, that hate mongers and purveyors of nonsense, spout vile and abominable things about different people on the airwaves, but I will defend their right to say such things. This only proves to me, that such people are small-minded and will not change.
Given the need for people to come together, we must declare that those among us, who, are like this cannot and should not be listened to. We have the power of choice, turn off the radio, turn off the tv, or change the channel when these people come on the air. This not only applies to people who have a problem with another's faith but also in the political realm as well.

Mr. Patel:

I find your columns on Islam very interesting, as it is common for people to have a morbid fascination with the pathological.

Ebo,

Enough do not patronize. They is no comparison between HAJJ and american history.

I appreciate your effort to give info on Islam but STOP! Do not relate Hajj with any thing unrelated

Ebo,

Enough do not patronize. They is no comparison between HAJJ and american history.

I appreciate your effort to give info on Islam but STOP! Do not relate Hajj with any thing unrelated

Ebo,

Enough do not patronize. They is no comparison between HAJJ and american history.

I appreciate your effort to give info on Islam but STOP! Do not relate Hajj with any thing unrelated

Ebo,

Enough do not patronize. They is no comparison between HAJJ and american history.

I appreciate your effort to give info n Islam but STOP! Do not relate Hajj with any thing unrelated

Mr. Patel, thank you for the beautiful article.

Islam has always thrived in secular settings and I was pleased to see how you tied the Prophet's teachings to those of Mr. King.

Well said A KAFIR !

The whole Haj ritual is a strictly muslim thing, there is nothing for the rest of mankind.

Mr. Patel,

What will happen to a non muslim if he suddenly discovered by other worshippers in Haj ??
Is it going to be imprisonment or lashing or beheading ?

Mr. Patel,

As an american HOW do you deal with the fact that your fellow citizens are considered too filthy to be allowed into Mecca fro Hadj? Why are all non-muslims considered so filthy that they may not even enter mecca? The prohibition of allowing Kafirs near the great mosque was laid down by Muhammad, and that is the core conflict with the multi plural and secular nature of America and the eternal divide of mankind into Muslims and filthy Kafirs by Islam. Hadj is not a beautiful day, but an insult to every non-muslim of being a "filthy Kafir".