The Faith Divide: Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Muslim Dirty Laundry

Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Muslim Dirty Laundry

When I wrote an article for this website a few months ago called On Muslim Antisemitism, a Muslim friend of mine remarked, “What you say is true, but why do you have to air our dirty laundry?”

I stared at her in disbelief. Did she really think that the world was unaware of our dirty laundry?

The sad truth is that too many people think it’s the only kind of laundry Muslims have.

And one of the reasons for this is because mainstream Muslims aren’t talking openly about the problem.

My wife was at a dinner party last week and someone asked about the English woman in the Sudan who, at the urging of her Muslim students, named the class teddy bear Muhammad and received jail time and death threats for her efforts.

My wife’s friend asked: “Does Islam really say that she should be punished?”

“I don’t want to talk about it,” my wife responded.

I understand why my wife took a pass. Mainstream Muslims are tired of being put on the defensive, of only being asked about their religion in relation to violence or the oppression of women, as if that’s all that Islam has ever or could ever produce.

But her friend still wanted an answer to her question. And if my wife wasn’t going to provide one, then she would have to find someone who would.

In this case, it was Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who wrote an OpEd in The New York Times effectively stating that Islam requires Muslims to severely punish teachers who name teddy bears Muhammad (Sudan), rape victims who are accused of being in the presence of a man who is not a family member (Saudi Arabia) and female writers who criticize Islam (India).

Ayaan Hirsi Ali is right on two important points. The first is that all of these punishments are appalling and brutal. The second is that moderate Muslims should be louder about these matters. There are some things that are true even if Ayaan Hirsi Ali believes them.

And once moderate Muslims are louder, not in the form of angry indignation but as eloquent articulators of the depth and meaning of their faith, then people like Ayaan Hirsi Ali will suddenly find themselves consigned to the place where they should have been all along: the margins, where they can froth at the mouth all they want.

Hirsi Ali and people like her are widely-read because they offer a theory of the problem: they tell the world a convincing story of why Muslims keep popping up on the front pages of newspapers in negative articles. Hirsi Ali’s theory, and the theory of other Islamophobes, is that Muslims have dirty laundry because the body and soul of Islam are dirty.

Hirsi Ali ends her Times OpEd with a subtle but scathing indictment of Islam – that it is a tradition opposed to conscience and compassion. “When a “moderate” Muslim’s sense of compassion and conscience collides with matters prescribed by Allah, he should choose compassion,” she writes.

I wonder if my wife’s dinner part friend thinks that’s true. As far as I know, it’s the only theory that she’s heard.

A lesson for mainstream Muslims: Whenever you don’t offer a theory of the problem, someone else will. When there is a vacuum of information about a hot topic and you don’t fill it, other people will aggressively move in.

Too many mainstream Muslims believe they have only two options in the face of the current discourse on Islam: angry indignation or stony silence.

I believe there is a third way. It is what University of Michigan Professor Sherman Jackson, one of America’s leading scholars of Islam, calls ‘Islamic literacy’.

Here is how someone literate in Islam, Muslim or not, might have responded to Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s contention that Islam and compassionate conscience are mutually exclusive. First, by saying that there should be no excuses made for those who sought the punishments in any of the three cases she named. They were indeed brutal, and as such, were in conflict with the core ethos of Islam – compassion and mercy, which are enshrined both in the Muslim tradition and in the human conscience.

Compassion and mercy are the two most repeated qualities of God in Islam, best illustrated by the most common Muslim prayer, “Bismillah Ar-Rahman Ar-Rahim” – In the name of God, the Most Compassionate, the most Merciful. As they are qualities of God, they are attributes that Muslims are required to emulate.

Compassion and mercy are also enshrined in the first lesson that classical Muslim scholars would teach their students, what came to be known as the Tradition of Primacy in Islam: “If you are merciful to those on Earth, then He who is in Heaven will be merciful to you.”
Islam, like other traditions, has internal contradictions. The Qur’an and Muslim law say different things in different places. That is precisely why compassion and mercy play such an important role in Muslim interpretation and practice. When in doubt about how to deal with a particular situation, a Muslim should always be guided by compassion and mercy.

Compassion and mercy are given to human beings by God – they are the content of our conscience. Dr. Umar Abdallah, the most senior scholar in Western Islam, writes in one of the most important essays in contemporary Islam that mercy is the central quality that God “stamped” on His creation.

Fazlur Rahman, amongst the most widely-respected Muslim scholars of the twentieth century (and Dr. Umar’s intellectual mentor), wrote that the single most important term in the Qur’an is “taqwa”, which translates roughly as “God-consciousness” or “inner torch” or “conscience.”

Khaled Abou El Fadl, one of America’s most important scholars of Islamic thought and law, believes that people are required to bring their God-given compassion to the reading of the text of the Qur’an. “The text will morally enrich the reader, but only if the reader will morally enrich the text.,” he writes in a remarkable essay called The Place of Tolerance in Islam.

Shaykh Hamza Yusuf, the most prominent Muslim scholar and preacher in the West, wrote in a piece for this website, “Unfortunately, millions of Muslims all over the globe are humiliated and betrayed by the ignorance and lack of basic humanity that a small minority of Muslims too often exhibits.”

He continued, “True religion – as well as the highest secular values – demands we … attempt to understand each other, recognize our real differences, and display mutual respect.”
That is a statement of both liberation and guidance for mainstream Muslims. Muslims who speak only of brutality and severity and punishment are not just betraying mainstream Muslims, they are violating our tradition. They do not speak for us. We are not required to defend them.

To mainstream Muslims everywhere: When we act and speak with compassion and conviction and knowledge, even about our ‘dirty laundry’, we are following the straight path of our faith, educating those with genuine questions about Islam, marginalizing people with destructive agendas, and doing our part to build a world based on understanding and respect.

By Eboo Patel | December 13, 2007; 9:50 AM ET | Category: The Faith Divide Save & Share:
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As salaamu alaikum wa rahmat allahu wa barakatu,

On the subject of Sharia law and prescribed punishments, nothing is brutal about the deterrent when compared to the ultimate punishment for committing the crime despite the deterrent with no regret or remorse - in arrogance, and what follows that is the punishment from God. The punishment in this life is easier by far.

The obfuscation of the young woman’s case is a deplorable twist of the media taking focus away from what she was guilty of and making it seem as though she were being punished for being raped. No, that is not the case. She is being punished for violating the law which came to light when her case was revealed…she was given a lighter sentence for having been within the private company of a non family member male, then despite her guilt she fought the courts judgment and lost again and was handed a more severe punishment. The other crime she is not being penalized for as it is her attackers that were tried and convicted for that.

Hirsi Ali and her ilk are only here to cause division and confusion among Muslims who are not well founded in their faith. When one understands the truth about Islam and what it dictates in the form of human behavior one realizes that despite what happened to Hirsi Ali in her youth it had no basis or foundation in Islam at all and is only a brutal tribal custom of the ignorant Africans she lived among. Her entire entry into the literary world is based upon the false premise that she suffered “because” of Islam…no, she didn’t…she suffered because of ignorance.

There are many among our Muslim populations that give lip service to their faith, “Oh, yeah, I’m a Muslim.” But then they neither obey what they are ordered by God to do nor avoid what He has ordered them to avoid. Often these who give lip service only are the useful pawns of people like Hirsi Ali and others of her ilk, pointing to things that are not from Islam and smearing and obfuscating then throwing that negative pall over all of the Muslims. Then the “moderates” rise to give a hue and cry and basically get behind them in their efforts to smear Islam, unwittingly. If they would educate themselves and enforce the Quran and Sunnah upon themselves they would easily identify what the problem is.

The problem is Ignorance of Islam by non Muslims and Muslims themselves.

Surat Al Nisa 4: 136

“Oh, you who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book which He has revealed to His Messenger and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His messengers and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error. “

Surat Al Tauba 9:119

“Oh! you who believe be careful of (your duty to) Allah and be with the true ones.”

Understand what the truth is and have proper knowledge BEFORE one speaks for or against a subject…understand the illa, the issue, that is at hand…because 99% of the time what the detractors and enemies of Islam forward as they scream injustice is not a result “of” Islam, but the negative outcome for disobeying the dictates of Islam.

Know your enemy because he, Iblis, Saytan, the Devil, knows you, the human being. He will pick out your weakness and exploit it…so do not refer to any negative human quality as “Muslim (insert whatever)-Ism” this in itself has become the hue and cry of the Saytan and their helpers even among the “moderate” Muslims.

Knowledge must precede action, and not the other way around.

There is no need to “defend” our faith against false accusations by those like Hirsi Ali…we who understand and have knowledge, Insha Allah, understand that her issue is with human beings disobeying Allah Sobhannah W’TAllah. Her issue is not with the Mummin, the true believers, because we study, and we learn, and we gain knowledge, and then we act on the order of Allah Who has forbidden oppression to the extent that He has even forbidden opression by Himself on any of his creation.

Peace
Abdullah Mikail

Posted by: Abdullah Mikail | January 29, 2008 3:27 PM
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mr patels critics are not fellow muslims-
ali hirsi is an atheist- not a muslim
hasnt been a muslim since she was 16

im a muslim, and mr patels work in interfaith dialogue is commendable

Posted by: VICTORIA | January 5, 2008 2:25 PM
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Check out one of the outspoken Iranian about Islamic barbarism in http://www.fireonquran.com/

He protests against Islamic cruelty that is running under Islamic laws in Iran by setting fire on Quran which government suggests they operate under Quran and Islamic laws.

Posted by: an Iranian | January 4, 2008 6:37 AM
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Ayaan Hirsi Ali is right on... Eboo, you and your so called 'main line' muslims are like defenders of communism. You keep pointing out the few positive qualities of the religion while neglecting the ugly reality of its overall impact. Would you and your wife feel comfortable living in Saudi Arabia or Iran? How do you feel you'd be doing there as a moderate muslim? Let's deal with facts here and the reality is that no country with a dominant muslim population has ever managed to establish a continuous democracy where women and believers in other religions can freely express themselves. Eboo, your enemies are not critics of Islam but your fellow muslims.

Posted by: mbrix | December 17, 2007 11:29 PM
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GeorgiaSon:

Excellent post. At least one person appreciates your well reasoned comments.

Posted by: William, San Antonio | December 17, 2007 3:53 PM
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Dear Georgiason,

On your first item, I think that you have proved my argument better than I could ever have done. I totally agree with you that Christianity as a religion or the Christians of the entire planet should not be held responsible for the acts of a small fraction. So why is it that your post and that of the overwhelming majority on this and similar debates holds All Muslims responsible for the heinous acts of a small fraction and requires that they put it in writing that they disavow these terrible acts. You seem to believe that all Muslims are inherently incapable of rational thought, tolerance and compassion. You believe (and I agree with you) that acts of some Jewish extremists should not be used to define all Jews or the Jewish religion, or murders of obstetricians or gays, the activities of the Klan all in the name of religion and pedophilia of some priests should not be used to define Protestants or Catholics and their respective religions as a whole then I expect you to apply the same rule to Islam and to Muslims otherwise you have double standards. If it is taken for granted that moderate Jews and Christians condemn extremist acts then why isn’t the same courtesy extended to Muslim moderates. Why should they have to take out a full page ad in the Washington Post and the New York Times to prove their loyalty to the moderate cause every time an extremist commits an act. Moderates, by definition, are slow to take action and are, more often than not, overtaken by the action of the extremists. This applies to all moderates regardless of their religious affiliation. Muslim moderates, like all moderates, also disagree and make their disagreement known towards extremist acts. One problem is that the reader in the west does not watch, read or listen to the media in the east, the region where the largest proportion of Muslims live.

Regarding colonization, we are on diametrically opposite sides of the argument with no common ground and I am not sure there is a way to have a discussion without it degenerating into a brawl. Correct me if I am wrong, but you appear to be saying that colonization, though not quite a very good thing was not such a bad thing after all. And, in fact, some of the people sent out invitations to be colonized. It seems that you also believe that the Asians, Africans and the North and South American natives could not have made any significant progress on their own, even in 200 or 300 years, and needed the white man to civilize and to educate them. You also state that colonization was more beneficial than harmful for the natives because it taught them how to argue for their rights and to use the rules of the colonizers against them. That is like telling the Jews that even though the holocaust was not such a good thing, look on the bright side, you got a country of your own out of it. For me, to lose millions of my countrymen and to be enslaved and exploited for several hundred years is too high a price to pay for the benefits. The cost benefit analysis is not in favour of option “Get Colonized”. Consequently, I would not wish colonization on my worst enemy because there are no benevolent colonizers just as there are no benevolent dictators.

Posted by: Saleem Hasan | December 17, 2007 3:40 PM
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Suyuti in his book استنباط التنزيل (Istenbat al tanzeel) says: “Every thing in the Qur'an about forgiveness is abrogated by verse 9:5.” Al-Shawkani in his book السيل الجرار (Alsaylu Jarar 4:518-519) says: “Islam is unanimous about fighting the unbelievers and forcing them to Islam or submitting and paying Jiziah (special tax paid only by Christians or Jews) or being killed. [The verses] about forgiving them are abrogated unanimously by the obligation of fighting in any case.”

Posted by: Islamic Commentaries | December 17, 2007 2:54 PM
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Epitome of Real,

You sound like a PC controlled robot. You are spewing the talking points of propagandist Muslims who want us in the USA to believe that the Koran does not promote offensive war. The truth is the Koran teaches that Muslim armies can send a letter asking non Muslim peoples to become Muslims. In the letter a time limit is given "forbidden months" Surah 9:5. If that land does not submit then the Koran allows for them to attack that land and subjugate that land.

You need to study for yourself and stop listening to propagandists who want to bring this country down.

Posted by: Sobriety | December 17, 2007 11:13 AM
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REPLY TO Saleem Hasan:

You legitimately note that Christians are not without sin when it comes to using violence against "others" when it comes to furthering their own interests. You cite the Holocaust and Western colonization as examples. Your reasoning is flawed, on several counts.

None of the examples you cite were committed by some specific, well-defined extremist group of Christians specifically in the name of Christianity. True, many of the individuals who participated in the Holocaust and in colonization asserted their own personal viewpoint that they were doing so in the name of Christianity, but there was no organization like Al Qaeda involved and no sub-group of Christians, as there is a sub-group of Islam, the extremist Muslims.

But more to the point, holding the Christian religion responsible for the Holocaust is gross intellectual dishonesty. I will not demean myself by spending too much time pointing out that equating German Nazis with Christianity is phony baloney. For the Holocaust to occur, the Nazis had first to launch aggressive warfare against virtually all the other Western Christian nations, militarily subdue them, and establish a brutal, repressive occupation of those countries in which Christians as well Jews were under the Nazi boot. The, and only then, were the Nazis able to carry out the Holocaust.

For you to compare the above situation in any way with the current war of Muslim extremists against Christians is sheer lunacy. Has Al Qaeda occupied all Muslim countries, and that’s why they cannot mount a collective response to obliterate the extremists?

Oh, that’s the other significant fact you ignore when you us the Holocaust to condemn all Christians. By the time the Holocaust got underway, other Christians nations were waging open warfare against the Nazis. They were engaged in nothing less than an all-out effort to eliminate the Nazis from the face of the earth, virtually without mercy. The Christian nations mobilized mighty armies to march into the heart of enemy territory and physically annihilate the misguided Christians who had demeaned the Christian religion by falsely claiming to act in the name of Christianity.

Over to you, Saleem. Please elaborate on your parallel between the Holocaust and extremist Islam. When will we see a multinational force of Muslim armies marching into Pakistan and Afghanistan to annihilate the Muslim extremists, who allegedly do not represent all Islam and are sullying the name of Islam by their wicked acts?

Yes, it was wrong for Christians to rationalize the colonization of other countries. But I note that in many instances, the Christians ended up in those countries after being invited in by one or more factions of the native population. They were there by right of treaty. But more importantly, colonization was not without benefit to the natives. The Christian colonizers for the first time introduced into those backward and benighted countries the concept of the rule of law; modern health practices; control and eradication of diseases; universal education; a competent, corruption-free bureaucracy; expanded rights for women; and above all, democracy. Remember, it was the ability of the colonized to point out to the colonizers that they were ignoring their own self-proclaimed belief in democracy and human rights that laid the seed to end colonization. India and Gandhi being the prime example of this.

Of course these legacies were never perfectly realized under colonial rule. But they were significant and important legacies nonetheless. They laid the foundation for modernity in Muslim countries. This Western legacy provided whatever semblance of democracy and respect for human—especially, women’s—rights exist today in Muslim countries.

So tell me, Saleem. If Saudi Arabia colonized Western Europe today, what legacy would the Saudis leave behind?

Posted by: GeorgiaSon | December 17, 2007 8:06 AM
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What? no muslims to counter Hirsi ali? That is likely because Islam's dirty secret is real and worse than you would like to fantasize otherwise. Our culture also took its sweet time to grudgingly recognize the rights of all men and women as more important than the traditions (superstitions) of religion, race, and royalty. Apparently our Bill of Rights and a rich precedent of centuries of western law is vastly superior to ancient law supposively dictated to an individual of questionable qualities. I hope that I didn't sign some death warrant because you can't handle the overwhelming facts so must kill the messenger.
When Hirsi Ali characterizes Islam in a way that is completely disconnected from what we are seeing then maybe you will have your day but until then, keep dreaming.

Posted by: Rich Rosenthal | December 17, 2007 8:06 AM
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Hirsi Ali is literally an agent of one of the most malicious and malevolent intellectual centers for American Colonial Imperialism. The Neo Conservative AEI consists of CEOs, former and current, for ExxonMobil, American Express, International Paper, and intellectual leaders such as professor Samuel Huntington. If one reads the Shock Doctrine by Naomi Klein, one will come to understand the path the American Neo Conservative (economic liberalism) movement has for the world.

The European Colonial Empires and even the Christian Crusades used flash points and Wedge Issues similar to the 'Muhammad' Bear Case to ignite the sentiments of imperialism within their homelands towards the Muslim world. Once it was Jerusalem. Then it was literally all kinds of similar reports by military observers in and Orientalists towards the Muslim world. And these Wedge Issues, like women's rights, and 'barbarian vs. 'civilized man' stories supported public sentiments of cultural superiority which justified imperialism, invasion, conquest, and subjugation of distant lands, usually lands with some commercial, economic, and geo-strategic significance. Thus, such colonial 'wedge issues' served as cultural pretexts for the violent greed of Western imperialism.

Today is no different. What separates the British population of yesteryear from the American population, however, is the American population is extremely ignorant of most of the Muslim world and America's legacy of policies, plots, secret alliances, within the Muslim lands.

Mr Patel missed the real issue:

to certain people in Sudan, that "Teddy" Bear was a symbol of Western colonialism, military, economic, cultural imperialism, and conquest towards the Muslim world, including Sudan. And because the people were helpless to resist all western imperialism, and helpless to resist the tyrannical authoritarian rule of Gen. Bashir, himself trained and supported by the Egyptian tyrannical rule supported by America, some used this symbol of the toy to show their hatred and helpless.

Need I say that the Muslim parents of the children in the British teacher's class supported and defended the teacher? Or that the Khartoum metro area is a 6-7 million population which did not turn out to support the tiny rally at the prison? Or that such insignificance was used by political forces, probably Bashir himself, to whatever ends (Bashir being the one to commute the teacher's sentence)? And that likely Khartoum elite want to gain more wealth from their country's assets and are willing to use such a fiasco to expedite their personal enrichment?

Nay, the American media plays to bigotry and imperiousness. Certainly there are dozens of similar cultural fiascoes in America's judicial system every day, yet they do not get international media attention or columns written on them. Certainly the fact that America has executed innocent men very likely for years is no minor story. And yet Hirsi Ali's resonating shrill from such an imperial and malevolent black tower is a testament to this fact.

Posted by: Usama | December 17, 2007 8:02 AM
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Eboo,
"In this case, it was Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who wrote an OpEd in The New York Times effectively stating that Islam requires Muslims to severely punish teachers who name teddy bears Muhammad (Sudan), rape victims who are accused of being in the presence of a man who is not a family member (Saudi Arabia) and female writers who criticize Islam (India)"
You have not addressed why Muslims in the above instances acted as they did. You are just quoting those people who are paid their salaries by Saudi Arabia.

If Islam is a good religion why no one can build a chuch, temple or any place of worship in Saudi Arabia, why there no equal right to non Muslims in any Muslim country, why every one in Afganistan wanted to kill a man who converted to Islam, Why Salman Rusdhie, Ibn Warraq, Harsi Ali have to come to USA and seek protection from Muslims who want to kill them? Why Nasreen has to come to India from Bangladesh? Why Muslims in India want to kill her? Why no Muslim including you not condemn those who want to kill them.

The only explanation is you have been brainwashed by Mullas as a child like most Muslims and brain dead now. You can't see the truth that Islam was violent at birth, Muhammad was violent and devious by nature, Quran is false and Allah is more akin to Satan than God.

Posted by: Agnostic | December 17, 2007 7:34 AM
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"There is no doubt that people have done evil in Jesus' name but when they did they were contradicting the teachings of Jesus. When a Muslim murders an infidel he or she is following the Koran and the example of Muhammad."

________________________________________

This is a lie, posturing as the truth. Islam means the complete submission to the will of
Allah (God).

According to the Prophet war and fighting is only permissible when there is an attempt to destroy God's religion. Even then, if the enemy seeks peace, though unauthentic, a Muslim is REQUIRED to end the fighting. Christians have fought in the name of God for centuries.

Is this what is happening in the world today, well, no. Of course, as I have stated before, most Christians and Muslims have displayed a great deal of hypocracy in the names of holy prophets. I don't see them as true Christians or Muslims. Wickedness under the name of a prophet is still wickedness.

Posted by: Epitome of Real | December 17, 2007 7:24 AM
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Dear Mr. Patel,

Thank you for a thoughtful article.

I have, during the course of my life, been to many Muslim clountries ( my parents were refugess from what is now Bangladesh to India )and have numerous friends who are Muslim.

One of my friends ( who owns a Asia Grocery store ) is a Palestinian who is well versed in the Islamic faith. He is of the opinion that the Talban ( the student ) is on the right course to impose the Islamc faith.

At a recent dinner at a Bangaldeshi friend's house, I asked that how could the Taleban destroy music videos and cd's when some of the best classical singers and mordern music composers are Muslims hailing from India, Pakistan and Bangladesh ? There was stony silence.

Why is it that different interpretations of the Koran make me ( a non-Muslim ) an infidel?

My question is : Do nationalities differ in the interprepation of the Koran. I find the Muslims of Bangladesh more democratic and less fundamentalist whereas Muslims from some pre-dominantly Arab countries more rigorous in their thoughts and approach ?

As a Hindu, we have serious discussions on whether Hinduism is a religion or a philosophy but I have never read nor heard of similar debate on Islam. The point is, we discuss this and are still the best of friends - does it happen in your circles ?

Forgive me for any transgressions.

With kind regards,
Shovan Das
Kenner, Louisiana
Dec 17th. 2007.

Posted by: shovan das | December 17, 2007 6:34 AM
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While I am grateful to the W.P.for providing the most extensive newspaper coverage of perspectives & commentaries on faiths, I think the credibility & value of your forum will be enhanced if your rules goverining BOTH opinions & commentaries require writers to identify specifically the text reference they direct their criticism & attacks against.
To illustrate , in relation to the Islamic faith ,there is Only ONE version of the Quran,& IT is THE one & only starting & ending authoritative arbiter on what GOD instructed the MESSANGER to CONVEY to humanity about what the divine theory of islam is.
Deviance from Quran's devine guidance by individuals ,groups ,rulers ,courts , etc is an exercise of the free will & freedom to choose (good &/or evil) that comes with the holy gift of human life & its challenges of human initiative & judgment

Accountability before GOD for individuals practicing deviant judgement & behavior is promised in the Quran. It is betwween the deviant person & GOD , except where the Quran provided in the case of Islamic-majority communities consenting to be run by Quranic guidance.
To opine that freely-willed behavior by deviant "believers" nullifies the Quran & its message is utterly untenable, because humans are fallable, as described in the Quran.The class of humans ,even in Islam , were obviously & by Quranic text, were not designed to be angels. To argue that beleivers , as it pertains to their own private lives, may & do have the right to interpret the Quran , utilizing available access to reliable explanations by the MEESANGER, is completely consistent with the Quran & the individual's obligation to make judgment & choices.
It is fitting ,therefore ,that biased writers seeking to inflame the currently fashionable campaign for "Clash of civilizations" should be made to accept more W.P.rigorous rules ensuring more fairness , validity & reliability. I find it a reasonable burden ,for example , to require provision of specific & detailed evidence referring in particular to Islam's Quranic text on which attacking people choose to base their veiw that ISLAM is a bad faith , before they are allowed to access your forum with shallow invalid provocative diatribe.
To claim that "christian" Mcvey's crime condemns the faith of christianity itself is as untenable & nonesensical as to claim that "moslem " Binladin's crime condemns Islam to being Islamofachism or Islamic terrorism ,or that ariel Sharon's crimes re palestanian refugee massacars while he carried out Lebanon's earlier invasion under M. Begin can be used to condemn the faith of Judaism itself!!

Posted by: Dr. Abdallah Aish | December 17, 2007 5:26 AM
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Posted by: Dr. Abdallah Aish | December 17, 2007 5:22 AM
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America's problem with the muslems is the lack of change brought on by the so-called moderates.

When the world had a problem with nazis, the west shut them down. When the world had a problems with communists, the west shut it down. When America had the radical types (ku klux klan), we shut them down.

The muslims moderates spend their time telling westerners that we are, wrong, racist, arab hater, blah, blah,.

The point is, it is all talk and the muslim actions (actions are all that counts) are killing, jihads, etc.

So dont be upset when the west finally gets together to shut the muslim threat down.

Posted by: M algore | December 17, 2007 4:02 AM
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Rajaram,

Ofcourse there should be compassion all around. Who is saying there should not be? But pretending to not see the facts and hiding behind trying to be a "nice" dhimmi is not bein compassionate but just stupid.
Patel tries to lay the blame on Hirsi Ali who stated facts simply and clearly. Patel counts himself as a moderate and he quotes moderates who are incapable of simply stating what Hirsi Ali has stated unambiguously: that Mohammad the prophet of Islam is not an acceptable role model in the modern world especially one which has become small and is now a global village. Read the link I posted earlier and see what the muslims are saying themselves. Why pretend otherwise?

Posted by: A. Kafir | December 17, 2007 1:46 AM
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Mohammed Malleck,

Hmmm, for clarification since you appear to be confused:

"Until the flaws of the koran are removed, no one is safe!!!"

The flaws in the koran (and Islam), you ask??

A synopsis:

Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, warmongering, hallucinating Arab who also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" aka "pretty, wingie, talking, flying, fictional thingies" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic train bombers in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani koranics, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Afghan poppy sniffers aka the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino koranics.

And who funds these acts of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia

Posted by: Concerned the Christian Now Liberated | December 17, 2007 1:41 AM
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THE ARTICLE IS THOUGHT PROVOKING AND TRIES TO PUT SENSE INTO US AND CONCLUDES THAT WHAT VERY HUMAN BEING SGHOULD EXHIBIT IS COMPASSIN-AFTERALL THERE IS NO ABSOLUTE TRUTH IN ANY RELIGION-WERE IT TO B WE WOULD NOT HAVE SO MANY RELIGION AND STILL GROPE IN THE DARK--EVERYONE WHO IS INTERESTED IN THE HAPPINES ALL ROUND MUST READ THE ARTICLE AND FOLLOW WITH COMPASSION.

SD. S,RJARAM

Posted by: rajaram shanker | December 17, 2007 12:16 AM
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SD. S,RJARAM

Posted by: rajaram shanker | December 17, 2007 12:16 AM
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Jorge,

It is true that there are a lot of people who are Christian in name only but God always has His remnant that live holy lives and you are not the judge of them. His saints are washed clean in His blood and covered in His righteousness. He will judge you and unless you repent you will perish. The Koran is not a "holy book" it is the book of the antichrist. If you knew anything about the word of God you would know that anyone who denies that Jesus is the Son of God is an antichrist. The false prophet Muhammad did exactly that and he went further by denying the death burial, and resurrection of Jesus.

"Yet I will leave seven thousand in Israel, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him” (1 Kings 19:18).

"Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also" (1 John 2:22-23).

Posted by: Sobriety | December 16, 2007 11:08 PM
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Reading the post below about Muslims killing Christians in Nigeria,reminds me that somebody once said that religion is an evil because it sets men against each other;might have been Tolstoy.
Well whoever it was,sure got that right.

Posted by: Anonymous | December 16, 2007 11:05 PM
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NIGERIA: TEN KILLED, THREE CHURCHES SET ABLAZE IN BAUCHI

BAUCHI, Nigeria, December 13 (Compass Direct News) – Ten persons have been killed and three churches set on fire after Muslim high school students in this northern Nigerian city began a rampage on Tuesday (December 11) that spilled into the city. Today tensions were still high in the area.

An eyewitness at the high school said the Muslim students attacked their Christian peers after unidentified people pulled out two foundation blocks of a high school mosque under construction.

Area Muslims joined the attacking students, resulting in the deaths and damages in the city, including the burning of dozens of homes belonging to Christians.

The identity of nine of the 10 people killed has been kept secret as the Bauchi state government has ordered security agents to remove the corpses and bury them in a common grave. Eyewitnesses told Compass they were buried this morning.

The 10th person killed was a Christian security agent with the State Security Service, identified by eyewitnesses only by his surname, Bogoro, a member of the Church of Christ in Nigeria in Yelwa.

The three churches set aflame in Bauchi after Muslim students began attacking Christian students at the Government Day Secondary School (also known as Baba Tanko Secondary School) in the Yelwa Tudu area of Bauchi are Pentecostal: Elim Church, Redeemed Christian Church of God, and the Assemblies of God Church.

In addition, area Muslims set fire to dozens of houses belonging to Christians. Among the houses burned was that of the Rev. Umaru Sule, associate pastor of the Evangelical Church of West Africa (ECWA ) of Yelwa Makaranta, and that of the Rev. Maina Joshua of Kagadama.

A teacher at the Government Day Secondary School-Yelwa, who pleaded that his identity remain undisclosed out of fear of Muslim attack and government penalty, said he witnessed the sparking of the rampage when Muslim students claimed that the foundation of the school mosque had been pulled down.

The teacher told Compass that the Muslim students had won approval to build a mosque at the 3,655-student school on December 2 and began building its foundation the same day.

Posted by: Answer This Eboo? | December 16, 2007 10:52 PM
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The most ridiculous 'virtue' of all
is to be God-fearing.
Can you imagine...in religious circles
its considered a compliment to be called
a God fearing person.
I would consider it an insult.
It's like being scared of ghosts.
There are no ghosts,and no Gods either.
Unless your folks raise you to THINK there are.
And that's really sad,even immoral if you think about it.

Posted by: Pissaro | December 16, 2007 10:27 PM
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Mr. Patel,
It is not Hirsi Ali that you need to marginalize .. it is your main line muslim scholars and their writings and Fatwas of the last 1400 years. Here take a look:
http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?QR=22809&ln=eng
Question:
I heard on a tape that whoever insults the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) should be executed even if he shows that he has repented. Should he be killed as a hadd punishment or because of kufr? If his repentance is sincere, will Allaah forgive him or will he go to Hell and his repentance will be of no avail?

A: The scholars are unanimously agreed that a Muslim who insults the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) becomes a kaafir and an apostate who is to be executed.

This is in the words of your fellow muslims and not in the words of an Apostate like Hirsi Ali. Facts are facts and you cannot indulge in Taqqiya and expect the world to not notice.

Posted by: A. Kafir | December 16, 2007 7:51 PM
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If Baby X is born into a Sunni-Muslim family,in a Muslim country,Baby X will become A Muslim adult.

If Baby X had instead been born in Dublin of Catholic parents then Baby X would grow up into a Catholic adult.If Baby X had been born in Utah of Mormon parents,Baby X will grow up to be a Mormon.

The logic is inescapable. One's belief is an accident,depending totally on the religion of one's parents;and has no more veracity than that.

This has been going on for centuries and centuries,
the ancient ideas of our earliest ancestors passed on down through generation after generation,and is still being passed on,into the 21st century, where we can see how silly it all is,compared to everything we really know about the world these days,our ancestors knew NOTHING. They prayed to anything that moved,and worshiped the sun and the moon as gods.
We should put religious myths behind us.They are relics of our infancy as a species;relics of our very ignorant past.

Posted by: meg | December 16, 2007 6:50 PM
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What Mr. Patel says about Islamic traditions of tolerance and compassion is correct. It is also only half the story. Ignaz Goldziher, a Hungarian Jew who died in 1921 (and so had no involvement with contemporary controversies), is still probably the profoundest Western scholar of Islam. (He was a Jew as his name reveals but was highly, repeat highly, sympathetic to Islam. Look up his biography in Wikipedia.) He indicated in his Lectures on Islamic Theology and Law (Princeton University Press, 1981; pp. 22, 27), that Muhammad is not only a messenger of compassion; he was also a "prophet of struggle and war." Muhammad "left his immediate achievements within the Arabian sphere as a testament to the future of his community: to fight the unbelievers, to extend not so much the faith as the territory dominated by the faith, which was also the territory dominated by Allah. The warriors of Islam had as their immediate concern the subjugation, rather than conversion, of the unbelievers." Allah is a god of mercy and compassion but not of love--you can be compassionate toward someone without loving him. But above all Allah is a god of will. You have to submit to Him, as the word Islam itself indicates: "Islam" means submission. You have to get face down on the floor in the mosque, as a sign of submission to His will. This is not "dirty laundry." It is essential in Islam. And now that Islam feels itself to be under siege, because of modernity, this rougher, less compassionate aspect of it comes right out in the open.

Posted by: David Todd | December 16, 2007 6:10 PM
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Daphne;
Your comments are a breath of fresh air,and I hope the religiously deluded read and ponder what you have written.
Chip,Jorge,Terry and many other commenters also wrote very wise thoughtful essays,and one can only hope that some religious people read them and wonder to themselves whether maybe...just maybe,that nonbelievers are after all correct in assuming that gods are likely human constructs,and do not actually exist anywhere,and never did.
Like an earlier poster,I feel if I had been indoctrinated into a supernatural belief,then I like to think that I would at least consider the atheist position,and would have to wonder whether there really is a god,or whether I was just being hoodwinked into believing it,by my family and culture. The fact that people in different cultures have different beliefs,should at least raise questions.
But the religious don't question.Have you noticed that? They blindly accept whatever it is the were programed to believe.Whether it's Islam or Catholicism,or Mormonism.And they even brag about it...and try to 'spread the word'.
Beats me!

Posted by: Ted E.Bear | December 16, 2007 5:41 PM
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To Saleem Hasan
When so-called Christians commit crimes they do that in their names and for their own private agendas and not in the name of Christianity. They could not, because there is nowhere in the teachings of Christ that incites violence or the exclusion of the other.

Posted by: Ibrahim Mahfouz | December 16, 2007 5:38 PM
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Religious belief, of any kind, becomes by definition, closed, separative and ultimately violent. Once you take the first step into childish irrational belief systems, any subsequent violent behavior can be justified or, just as bad, tolerated.
The question is not whether there are "nice" Christians, Muslim or Jews, and "bad" versions.
The question is why do you think you need belief? Why do you want to follow? Why do you need a book or a priest to be generous and kind?
Believers believe out of fear or greed. They want to avoid something or get something.
All the money spent supporting preachers, priests, rabbis, imams, ayatollahs, churches, mosques and synagogues could be spent directly helping people. Believers give because they want to get, which is not giving. It’s a business transaction.
All the talk of tolerance and compassion is babble to make believers feel better.
It’s like prayer. It’s a placebo. It lets you think you’ve done something when you’ve done exactly nothing but talk to the air.
Terrorists at least do something, ugly, hateful and despicable as they are. The good news is, terrorists are revealing religious belief for what it is. The Christians tried terrorism during the Crusades. Now the Muslims are taking their turn at displaying the ignorance of religious belief.
You want to do something. Take the first step. Walk away from religious belief. Life is better on the sane side.

Posted by: Daphne | December 16, 2007 4:06 PM
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To quote Alex R., "So... maybe Western Europeans and North Americans are not moderates cause we're better people, or more reasonable, or less religious. Maybe we're just moderates because we're well fed, and we've been doing more of the screwing, historically speaking, than the bending over."

Alex R., Very succinctly put.

To those who think that Christians became more moderate after the "Enlightenment", let us note a few incidents that occurred since that time.

1. 6 million jews murdered in a Christian Germany Pogroms and antisemitism in Ukraine, Poland, Russia and other Christian countries to this day.

2. Colonization of the Indian subcontinent, huge portions of Africa, North and South America by the moderate and enlightened Christian nations of Great Britain, France, Spain, Portugal, Holland.

I do not think there are good estimates of the numbers killed during the period in which the enlightened Christian nations brought civilization to the rest of us non-Christians.

I would like a moderate Christian to explain to me how enlightened Christians, who believe in Jesus Christ and whose religion is the epitome of tolerance, peace and harmony, could have wreaked the kind of destruction and killing that occurred and is still occurring.

I am not a moderate anything, I a moderate, period.

Posted by: Saleem Hasan | December 16, 2007 3:39 PM
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To kafir idolator- Ajit Dhopia. Read great scholarly works by Robert Spencer, Rushdie, Ayaaan, Taslima to understand Islam or read any newspaper.

For ex. in Turkey (supposedly a very liberal Islamic democracry) a Christian priest was stabbed today. News reports are saying 1 percent of Christians are living in constant fear. Last year 3 Christians who converted from Islam were killed by Muslims and of course Turkish Govt still would not accept that Armenian genocide ever happened.

Posted by: MO- The first insurgent | December 16, 2007 3:37 PM
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Here is how someone illiterate in Islam, an Atheist, can support Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s contention that Islam and compassionate conscience are mutually exclusive:
Just give me one plausible reason why Islam forbids the act of adopting an orphan and bestow him or her the equal rights in the adopted family?

Why Muhammed hated Zayed his adopted son? Why did he after he married his wife produced a Koranic text that forbade the Arabs of the Arabian peninsula to practice a consious and comapasinate tradition that emnated from human feelings towards the vulnerables.

Posted by: Serood Agha | December 16, 2007 2:30 PM
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Concerned The Christian Now Liberated,

I'll begin by adding one more to your 'three well-publicized episodes' of the last three weeks before I make my substantive point. During the course of the week that just ended, in the county of Mississauga in Toronto, Ontario in Canada, a Muslim father reportedly killed his daughter in a fit of rage after months of arguments about her refusal to wear the hijab.

Monstrous? Of course!

Doing anything about it? Plenty, plenty, and for decades. Just read Jan Goodwin's "Price of Honour" and you will measure the dimension of the problem and the efforts deployed and the results achieved.

Your solution? 'Deflaw' (reminds you of the verb 'deflower' meaning rape, including of young boys enrolled in the seminary by Catholic Priests who are still enjoying the protection of the Pope? -- Oh, c'mon, Concerned, you're too spiteful, too unwashed to simulate not having chosen the word 'deflaw' with an intention to cause maximum humiliation) the Quran.

The solution of Jan Goodwin and people of good will like me? Educate, raise the potential victims' and the potential perpetrators' self-esteem, do waht we good Muslims call 'daawa' work, for example by relating, without boasting and without false modesty on WAPO PostGlobal and On Faith fora, how my own wife has worked in several Muslim and non-Muslim countries as a Gynaecologist, done pro-bono work as well as highly remunerative work, is planning to serve for at least six months with Doctors Without Borders in Afghanistan within the next two to three years, has raised her three children through university education where all have graduated with high distiction, two doing medicine like her. All this while she has never missed doing her five prayers a day (my youngest son does the same; most of the time I do twice a day, not rarely none; my other son and daughter being more pious than me but less than my wife and youngest son). My family and myself we enjoy reading and listening to the Quran but more often we also listen to Indian (including Bismillah Khana and Ustad Ali Khan as well as Ravi Shankar and Yehudi Menuhin) and western music (including Beethoven, Bach, Wagner, Chopin, but also, in the case of my children, Jimmy Hendrix and others whose names I never sem to be able to retain). We like ballets and operas, love cricket, play tennis and table tennis, but have successfuly resisted my elder son's then budding interest in car-racing.

Well, except for a few of the more 'elitist' activities, this is the life of the large majority of middle calss Muslim families. Those who are less fortunate than us?

Finally this is where my sustantive point comes. What you do for the less-fortunate ones is help them become more fortunate. How? By education; by bringing health care to them; by avoiding destroying our planet with a stubborn imperialist insistence that the strong never have to be reasonable, to be accommodating to the common good; by denouncing the misguided Papal doctrines that it is wrong even for Africans among whom AIDS is making apocalyptic ravages should not use condoms because it is 'unchrisitian'; by having the war criminals Radovan Karadzic and Mladic arrested instead of inflicting worse torture on their victims by arguing that the victims of rape cannot abort the foetuses that are a result of the shaming of the most intimate part of their bodies ('deflaw', Concened? Shame on you!).

Where Mary Robinson was resisting the push by the US military establishment to invade Afghanistan long before 9/11 (the real reason for invasion is Caspian oil), and where, post-9/11 and before the invasion Jan Goodwin ( the author of "Price of Honour" mentioned above) was campaigning furiously against an invasion, I acquiesced in the drive to invade Afghanistan. Today, I am very ashamed that a man as world wise as I am, as I already was in 2001, acquiesced in this crime against humanity! In spite of all my sense of self-worth, I am unfortunately among the 90% of humanity whom the Millgram experiment identifies as weak – susceptible to being swayed by ‘authority’ even against our best judgement. Mary Robinson and Jan Goodwin are the real strong, moral ones. I am sorry to have to say, Mr Eboo Patel, that you are markedly weaker than I am. And, you, Concerned, are the pervert.

But then, this is not the first time I am telling you that.

Posted by: Mohamed MALLECK, Swift Current, Canada | December 16, 2007 1:42 PM
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300 comments, but I didn't see anyone making the point that the problem is not religion, it's VIOLENCE! Violence is the enemy of us all. It does not discriminate, it denies freedom and security equally to all regardless of religion.

As for teachings about brutality and intolerance, there is as much of it in the Bible as there is in the Koran. Why anyone would take literally words that have been used and twisted for countless generations is beyond me.

Believe what you want, but please allow others to do the same. Cross that line and you forfeit your right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. You become a lesser being. In this sense the most advanced religions are the Eastern ones, who seem to understand personal enlightenment. Maybe that's why those societies have survived far longer than any of the Western or Middle Eastern ones.

Posted by: cdm | December 16, 2007 1:08 PM
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If I were Muslim I think I would use every opportunity to disapprove the outrageous behavior of my fellow Muslims.I would be shamed by 9/11,by all the other bombings,by the hysteria over the Danish cartoons,by the stoning of rape victims,and by people like Mr Patel and his wife,who would either prefer not to comment on these horrors,or to denigrate those Muslims who do.
As an individual who was never brainwashed into believing in the supernatural,Islam seems a quite disgusting religion,even compared to old time Christianity,which was nasty enough in it's day.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a hero in my book,for fighting against her indoctrination,and against the irrational nastiness that is Islam.
It's the believers who are frothing at the mouth,not Ms Ali;Ms Ali would wish that Islam was less nasty,less cruel,less irrational;and more civilized and decent;as we all would wish.
But there is no chance of that happening anytime soon.

Posted by: Drew | December 16, 2007 12:52 PM
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All major religions suffer this problem, but perhaps none more so than Islam. I applaud the call for moderate religious people to stand up and speak out against the extremist elements in their religions, but I don't believe that's the answer. If these ancient religions weren't so vague and so easy to twist into justifications for extremism this problem wouldn't exist in the first place. Instead of attempting to argue that what these vague ancient manuscripts actually call for is compassion and mercy, how about just standing up for compassion and mercy for their own merits, free of any religious dogma and the mental contortions they produce, simply because the advancement of peace, tolerance, and the betterment of the human condition are more important than trying to figure out whose version of outdated ancient parables is more correct. It's time for people to embrace their humanism and leave the myths and legends behind once and for all.

Posted by: chip; | December 16, 2007 12:47 PM
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As a liberal Hindu,I do believe that all religions are equal; they all have the same objective of uplifting the human soul. I read Bible, Jap Jee Saheb(Sikhism), books on Buddhism,Jainism and then I started reading the Holy Qoran, translated in English by an egyptian clergy and professor, published long before 9/11 happened. I was simply shocked by reading that Muslims must not befriend non-believers, as they would betray you, and cannot be trusted( I have paraphrased). It also prescribes a variety of punishments for the'infidel'.I wondered if Islam was a 'political' Movement or a religion of peace. I felt so disgusted that I stopped reading it half way through. Can someone enlighten me, please, by defining the terms 'infidel' and 'Jehad' for me. Why Qoran is so hostile to infidels. I wanted to understand all religions, before reading my own Hindu Scriptures. I am confused, but still have an open mind for understanding Islam. May be I read a wrong translation. Can someone suggest Qoran with correct authanticate English translation, not authors own interpretations.
Ajit

Posted by: Ajit Adhopia | December 16, 2007 12:44 PM
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Concerned The Christian Now Liberated,

Monstrous? Of course!

Well, except for a few of the more 'elitist' activities, this is the life of the large majority of middle calss Muslim families. Those who are less fortunate than us?

But then, this is not the first time I am telling you that.

Posted by: Mohamed MALLECK, Swift Current, Canada | December 16, 2007 12:23 PM
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Each religion asks its followers to do good deeds. The author believes that Islam preaches compassion and forgiveness. The Holy Quran written in Arabic is made available to Muslims the world over by their religious leaders in form of sermons. Whatever these religious leaders preach becomes the way of Allah. The world has seen many negative effects of hatred and violence. It is up to the Muslim community to bring about a change in the style and content of preaching that goes on in the mosques, where violence against people of other religions is extolled and future heavenly rewards are promised. The pulpit of the mosque should not become a place for preaching hatred, intolerance and violence. It is important for all to respect other faiths and learn to live with different approaches to reaching God. Perceived or historical injustice exaggerated by religious preachers leads to the world becoming a battleground. History teaches us many lessons, we should learn from those mistakes and act now. The Muslim intellectuals are not in touch with the ground realities and there is a disconnect between them and the Muslim have-nots. These impoverished and powerless Muslims are being led astray by the Muslim extremists because they help them in times of their needs with money, medicines, kind words and religious solace. Moderate Muslims need to work at the ground level where the extremists are using the principles of compassion to preach their philosophy of violence.

Posted by: Ram Lal | December 16, 2007 12:03 PM
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Thank you for putting Ms. Hirsi Ali where she belongs. I do not think that someone who broke European Union law by not applying for asylum in Germany, where she entered Schengen territory, then broke Dutch law by falsifying her name on her asylum application, then was run out of Dutch Parliament, and by a gentleman's agreement, out of the country, then obtained American permanent resident status using her illicitly obtained Dutch citizenship, should be taken seriously, on matters of religion, or any other matters that pertain to ethical behaviour.

Posted by: Menno Aartsen | December 16, 2007 12:02 PM
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What a load. Eboo, you know as well as I do that Islam only teaches compassion (in some cases) to OTHER Muslims. Non-Muslims are regarded as “the worst of creatures” (Qur'an 98:6) and “apes and pigs”:

“Say: Shall I inform you of (him who is) worse than this in retribution from Allah? (Worse is he) whom Allah has cursed and brought His wrath upon, and of whom He made apes and swine, and he who served the Shaitan; these are worse in place and more erring from the straight path.” (Qur'an 5:60)

And are ordered to be killed:

"slay the unbelievers wherever you find them" (Qur'an 9:5)

And even toward other Muslims, here is an example of what “Allah” thinks of “compassion”:

“The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication, flog each of them with 100 stripes: Let no compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day.” (Qur'an 24:2)

Why shouldn’t Muslims be expected to answer for the types of barbaric practices you mention? You CHOOSE to ally yourself with an ideology that calls for these practices to be carried out. The practices are carried out, and the ideology you’ve CHOSEN to ally with is cited as the reason. People have every right to hold you and every other Muslim accountable for the ideology you’ve CHOSEN to ally yourself with.

Your own relentless, seething hostility toward Ayaan Hirsi Ali pretty much says it all. She’s an apostate, after all. And what was Allah’s “compassionate” prescription for apostasy again? Oh, yeah – kill them:

"But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them" (Qur'an 4:89)

Posted by: Anonymous | December 16, 2007 11:47 AM
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Why bother comparing the lives of Mohammad and Jesus or the verses from the holy books to show your "Christian" superiority when there is not a Christian alive who follows the example of Jesus.

Jesus and his followers gave away their worldly possessions, embraced poverty to minister to the poor and outcast. They built no great temples or cathedrals. Jesus rather then use his awesome power to defend himself from the Romans and corrupt clergy allowed himself to be tortured and murdered. No early Christian raised a hand or weapon in their own defense against persecution.

I don't see any Christians today. I do see ministers and clergy living in luxury at the expense of their flocks, raising up great edifices for their own glory and screaming for war and violence to be done to their enemies real or perceived.

Don't be so quick to cast the first stone at Muslims for their sins.

Posted by: Jorge | December 16, 2007 11:33 AM
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I’m not here to defend Ayaan Hirsi Ali or the silent majority, moderate Muslims.

At the very start of her article, Hirsi Ali quoted from the Koran:
“The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication, flog each of
them with 100 stripes: Let no compassion move you in their case, in a
matter prescribed by Allah, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day.”
(Koran 24:2)

I saw no comment or explanation from you or the others you cited.
Is the quote correct or not ? How else should this be interpreted, if it is correct ?

“The sad truth is that too many people think it’s the only kind of laundry Muslims have.”
That’s the kind of laundry everyone has. No one worries about freshly laundered stuff.

“….English woman in the Sudan who, at the urging of her Muslim students, named the class teddy bear Muhammad ….. “
In fact, the children themselves wanted to name the toy, and did so. Poor woman just let them. If that was NOT right, where were the parents ? Shouldn’t they have told them that it was not right for them to do that ?

“Mainstream Muslims are tired of being put on the defensive, of only being asked about their religion in relation to violence or the oppression of women…”,
That, I’m afraid, is a cop-out ! By not responding to such questions, evading or avoiding them, they are allowing themselves to be put in a position you don’t like others to do it to you. Your wife may have her own reason.

Posted by: cantabb | December 16, 2007 10:48 AM
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For Christians that want the real truth of their faith - google Esoteric Christianity and you will find that the Christ concept is precisely the same as the Buddha concept and refers to
Higher Consciousness or Pure Awareness. This is the highest reality and is both Wisdom and Perfect Knowledge in the various mystical traditions of the world's religions -

The quote 'I am the way, the truth and the light, no one comes to the Father except through me' does not refer to Jesus the person, but Christ consciousness as the highest vehicle for perfect Wisdom. This of course is another second hand reference from the bible and some writer named John - nevertheless, it attempts to get at the real truth in Christianity and the esoteric tradition underlying the relative (exoteric) truths handed out to the masses of believers.

This is not different from any of the other major religion, including Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, and Hinduism. All have a mystical tradition that points to deeper truths. as well as public rites & rituals, doctrines and dogma that are the domain of the clergy
(and where most religious followers get stuck).

Once Christians get over their inbred feelings of exclusivity and superiority and actually learn something about the meaning of myth and allegory, the world will be a better place - e.g. there is no literal truth to be found in religion. The very same thing can be said of Islam, which works very hard at keeping it's own mystical tradition deeply hidden away - reading the poetry of Rumi you will immediately discover a taste if Islam's well concealed mystical Sufi tradition.

Mysticism defies the authority of the clergy and official church doctrine and has thus been suppressed throughout the history of the three Abrahamic religions arising from the old testament tradition.

The same is not true of Buddhism and Hinduism - here the quest for higher truth is at the heart of all religious practice for those that are willing to take up the work.

There is nothing new under the sun and nothing new in any organized religion. Believers will be believers will be believers. That's not new either.

Posted by: Terry | December 16, 2007 8:44 AM
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REMEMBER: Voting for HilLlary Clinton, is same as re-Voting for Prez B. Clinton.

This is 'illegal' , aka PROXY President by Nepotism! Presidential 'Term-Limits' are being violated. Do not be Stupid! The Communist have infiltrated Sweet Sweet U.S.A's Government of 'THE PEOPLE!

So, Please do not vote for 'Hillary & Bill Clinton! Thank You!

IMPORTANT , Sweet Sweet America:

A Russian Communist Conspiracy in Sweet Sweet America "i" now EXPOSED!

HARK Humates of America!:

BEWARE:

Senator 'Chuck Schumer' (of N.Y., a 'Senior Senator) is been "BRIBED' by the RUSSIAN-INTERNATIONAL-MAFIA! Example:

He, Mr. Schumer et al, via "L*U*K OIL" got money from them, (via ex-'GETTY gas station(s) moguls, now turned "Russian Mafia Government Front" as Owners in America. Please call FBI & CIA!] and of Which "Chucky-Boy' Senator SCHUMER promoted , knowingly in such a great 'COMMY' Conspiracy!

Forgive me, but it is true!!!!!!!!!!

ATT: You get pais per "CLICK' , then pay 'US' [free Spirited Bloggers] for Stealing OUR ideas/Writings!

Not: You must Post [ALL & not SENSORED] or repost {hours of WORK (free, but NO more!) thinking & typing) what You-Failed to post. There was No Cuseses. Everything was acoording to 'YOUR' rules, not mine.

Yes, 34,000 people a year in AMERICA , the sweet, comit Suicide. So Better they Volunteer for Army & die Protecting the great REPUBLIC & FEDERATION of "Space-Ship" Planet EARTH, aka S.S. GAIA, S.S. GEOID, S.S. TELLUSng Something instead!!

So please post ALL that you have sieved/selected & sensored! Not jus "i", but many many Bloggers!

NOTICE: You will be sued in Federal Court Soon!

"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blol owner"