Americanism vs. Islamism: A personal perspective
Terrorism is simply a means to an end. The only way to defeat a tactic is either to defeat the source completely or to take away the dreams of the enablers.

Monday, January 28, 2008
By Zuhdi Jasser

My venturing into public discussions on the intersection between religion and politics is not something that I chose, but rather something I felt obliged to do after 9/11. Prior to then, I’d been dealing with many of the pathologies within the Muslim community, but as I began to see who was emerging as “spokespersons” for my faith after 9/11, I had to do something; hence the formation of the American Islamic Forum for Democracy.

More than six years after 9/11, we’re starting to figure out that terrorism is just a tactic. The tactic has a goal, a mission, and a dream. Terrorism is simply a means to an end. The only way to defeat a tactic is either to defeat the source completely or to take away the dreams of the enablers. Those dreams, when they are wedded to religion, become the biggest liability for those of us who are embarrassed even talking about religion and politics. What greater incendiary mechanism could there be to manipulate Western society than to cover a fascistic dream in a faith that is a spiritual path for over a billion people? And what better way to insulate itself from criticism than to cover itself in a spiritual guise?

Non-Muslim and Muslim alike, Americans, guided by the Constitution and First Amendment, have always been protective of our faith. One of my heroes growing up was Thomas Jefferson. The Virginia Statute on Religious Freedom, drafted by Thomas Jefferson, engrained in our society a respect for the free practice of religion. Jefferson said, “The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.” This idea that a person’s relationship with God is his or her own and not the role of government to impose upon citizens is one of the main quarrels that the Islamists and those who ideologically feed the terrorists have with the West.

Unfortunately, many Americans have forgotten that America was founded by people who were escaping religious persecution. America is not just a flag, it’s not just our media, MTV, rock and roll, or blue jeans. It’s an idea of religious and political freedom and the freedom to be and achieve what you want, with equal access to everyone. That access is not dictated by wealth, religion, or any other immutable characteristic. That is what the Islamists fear the most.

“Islamist” does not necessarily mean only terrorists, and the simple condemnation of terror does not make someone necessarily compatible with American and Western ideals. Condemning terror—the targeting of women, children, noncombatants and non-uniformed people for the achievement of political ends—simply brings one to the table of humanity.

The root cause of terrorism is the dreams of the political Islamic state, and we need to understand what that state is. It can be either the fascistic state that believes in the totalitarian or authoritarian imposition of Islamic law throughout society or the democratic Islamic state, which believes in parliaments, elections, and discourse and debate. These two different types of government share the identification of being an Islamic state because the source of law is the same: the Quran and the tradition, or sunnah, of the Prophet.

The sunnah guide my personal life—my last will and testament, my marriage, our marital contract. But that’s something we chose in our own home. To transfer that into government gives clerics exclusive access to law, legislation, and public and legal discourse. If non-clerics want to gain access, they have to become schooled in sharia law. As important as the West’s initiative to democratize the Middle East is, we’re missing the boat if we think we’re going to solve the problems in the Middle East by simply getting those countries to have elections and parliaments. We need to bring forth the ideas of freedom, liberty, and respect for individuals, sometimes over the community. That last principle is one that came in the West’s Enlightenment.

Until Muslims understand that their faith is not threatened by the Enlightenment and respect for the individual, we cannot win this war.

Sometimes when we present these ideas, we present them behind the American flag. But being patriotic doesn’t necessarily mean that someone is looking out for the best interests of freedom and liberty in America. Islamic organizations that purport to represent Muslims may have a vision for America that simply takes our flag and adds a little crescent, turning it into an Islamic state. Some in the Muslim community may call this fear-mongering or exaggeration, but that Islamist community should not be allowed to circle the wagons and rally themselves behind victimization. Rather, they should be engaged on these ideas of the role of religious law in public life. For while the vast majority of Muslims have assimilated and reformed their own practices, by virtue of the way that they live in America, ideologically they have often been given the freedom but not the means, the task, and the challenge to understand what it is that they are living day to day.

As a result, most of the texts on Islamic bookshelves are pre-14th century. Most of the Islamic texts on law, penal codes, civil codes, etc., are based on 14th century law at best—it could be 11th or 12th century. Hence the corporal punishment, the severing of hands for theft, the stoning of women for violation of marital laws, that is still part of Saudi law. This to Westerners is barbaric, but the religious law hasn’t been reformed or advanced to bring it into the 21st century.

One of the primary problems with Islamic reformation issues is the clerical leadership and the imams. Most Muslim families would be dismayed if their son or daughter wanted to study to become a cleric or imam, which is not of the same value to a family as studying medicine, law, or engineering. So the hold upon religious, theological discussion of jurisprudence in faith has been given over to less than the intellectuals in society.

My own family escaped Syria to come to America for ideological, not economic, reasons. After the French pulled out in 1946, my grandfather had tried to be part of the democratization of Syria, which did have democracy for a few years. Then unfortunately, as we saw in many Middle Eastern countries, coup after coup occurred from the early 1950s until finally the last military coup led by the Baathists which ultimately brought Hafez al-Assad to power around 1970. The secular dictatorships are deeply wedded to radical Islam and the Islamist threat in the world. They may seem to be diametrically opposed entities, but the evolution and history of radical Islamist or theocratic movements has been an equal and opposite reaction to the dictatorships in the Middle East—- whether they are the monarchy in Saudi Arabia and the Wahhabis who came out of them, or the dictatorships in Egypt and Syria, for the Muslim Brotherhood, which also fed Hamas in Israel. This is what happened in Iran, with the Shah initially in power, which empowered the radical Islamist movement. All of this is very symmetrical, and that’s why we will not be able to bring Islam into modernity without the removal of many of these governments.

We do not have to do this militarily. We changed Eastern Europe without invading any of those countries and defeated communism without invading Russia. But we need to turn our attention to the dissidents, to those who believe in freedom and liberty, not only democracy. If we align ourselves only with democratic movements, we may end up ushering in parliaments based on Quranic law and facilitating the establishment of Islamic states that may in the short term be more peaceful to us from a strategic standpoint, but in the long term could end up dividing the world into a triangular fashion of China, Islamic states, and the secular Western states.

The conflict is over the correct source of law—Is it the Constitution and natural law or sharia; the lay individual or the clerics, or the individual vs. tribalism or Muslim collectivism?

I’ve tried to go to prayer every Friday, I attend the Ramadan holiday prayers and have probably 70-80 percent of the time found mosques that were not solely about spirituality or about teaching children morality and character, integrity, service, and humility, but rather about politics—domestic and foreign policy, issues that I believe have nothing to do with my relationship with God but rather concern things on this earth. My response in many of the debates I’ve tried to no avail to have with imams is to tell them that if God wanted us to discuss these things, the Quran would have been filled with injunctions about how to run government. But there’s nothing in the Quran about how we should run government. Yet they will take passages that do talk about war, for example, and transpose them out of context, which I believe is about history far more than it is about religion.

Back to my story. Once in the early 1990s, on leave from the military, I went to an Islamic medical association meeting. One of the only other Muslim medical officers was the head of endocrinology at Bethesda. He and I were going to present a paper on hormonal regulation and some endocrine issues at the Islamic Medical Association, which was being held in conjunction with the Islamic Society of North America annual conference. I had never been to a meeting of ISNA, the largest Muslim organization in America. Its annual meetings are attended by 15,000-30,000 Muslim activists. The keynote address was given by Siraj Wahhaj, Imam of Al-Taqwa Mosque in Brooklyn, New York, who was originally with the Nation of Islam and then converted to Sunni Islam. I was pulled into listening to this magnetic speaker, until he began talking about the constitution. He picked up the Quran and said “You know, I was on an airplane and imagine, a Jewish passenger sitting next to me asked me about the Quran I was reading—if Muslims became a majority in America, would we replace the U.S. constitution with the Quran.” He laughed and said, “Can you imagine someone wondering if a document made by humans would be superior to a document made by God?”

I got lightheaded, I sat down, and after he was done I went to the Q-and-A microphone and said, “I’m not sure if you understand American law, but you have just violated the Sedition Act as I understand it. You’re free to disagree with foreign and domestic policy, but you cannot talk about the overthrow of the U.S. constitution and its replacement by another document.” I encouraged other military personnel in the audience to leave, because they were violating their oath to this country. It was in some ways traumatic for me. I had just joined the Navy. But yet they felt that I was overreacting. I feel that it is not overreaction. There are certain things we have to know as a community and as a nation that take priority over other things.

A German judge recently gave a man the right to beat his wife because the husband maintained that it was out of his religious law that he is allowed to practice domestic abuse on his wife. That’s not the Islam I was taught, but if we become a society where once someone raises the flag of religion we stop critiquing it and stop holding him accountable to values that we share as a community, that is the day we begin down the slope of defeat.

As much as some Muslims could say I am mischaracterizing Islam or am too harsh, I think it is important to have the debate. Five years after the ISNA meeting, I met my wife and her family in Cleveland and told them that story. They said “We were there! We heard you say that.” Yet nobody did anything. Nobody stood up and agreed with me, nobody said “We may have a problem.” That same imam then became an alleged unindicted coconspirator in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing and later, in 1995, testified in defense of Omar Abdel-Rahman.

There’s a tribal mentality; somehow individuals want to create and advance the ideas of the tribal leaders. The Islamic community has reverted back to pre-Islamic Arabia, to a tribalism that has lost its values. Any time you take an idea in which the ends justify the means, it is basically corruption. Alija Izetbegovic, the president of Bosnia-Herzegovina, said that he was never more Muslim than when he was in solitary confinement under Marshal Tito for 15 years. A Muslim can hear that and think “My rights and freedoms in society are not related to my being Muslim. I have more time to sit and talk to God and be closer to God when I have absolutely no rights and I’m sitting in solitary confinement. Therefore my religion and my piety are unrelated to this earth.”

Actually, the idea that we should be selling—not on the U.S. station Al Hurrah, which actually gets very low ratings in Iraq, but on Al Jazeera, on Syrian TV—is that the way for individuals to be closest to God is to live in freedom. When you live in an environment where people around you are not fasting in Ramadan, where they are not praying five times a day, where I choose to separate from the group and go pray on my own, not in the middle of a gate at the airport demanding for everyone to see me but actually on my own, that actually is more of a demonstration to the God of Abraham, that I’m choosing to do that of my own free will. Thus, the day of judgment, if you believe in a day of reckoning, has more meaning to God. That is to me the message of our founding fathers. The most pious nations and individuals are those who can freely decide whether to act or to practice their faith without coercion from government.

Muslims will say, this is ridiculous, you don’t want religion to inspire what we do? There’s this equivalency where they then give me ten other religious lobbies in America that supposedly mix religion and politics. I’ll say that there’s absolutely no comparison, there’s no moral equivalency between religiously inspired political groups and Islamist groups that have a constructive law as a goal— the nucleus of which is completely different from one based on a human document. The key is that we hold Muslims accountable to what they view the concept of law would be if they became a majority. One finds few or no Christian, Buddhist or Hindu groups who want to bring, e.g., canon law or religious jurisprudence into American jurisprudence. Yet they may be inspired and empowered by their faith, which is very different.

I would then remember de Tocqueville, who said that military dictatorships do not need God, but democracies and lands based on freedom do. Because as you know, in the Middle East, and we see this in Iraq, when countries have lost their values after decades of dictatorship and become corrupt, there’s such a loss of values that corruption has guided and taken over that society making freedom difficult to take hold.

As a result, you have wanton destruction and lawlessness. The only thing that would control that society is some form of martial law. So you need to transition states from oppression to freedom, but that transition needs to be inculcated with values.

At the end of the day, if we believe that those values they’re going to use to drive their ideas are going to be based on morality, that morality has to come from somewhere. If it’s not going to come from Islam, then we’re going to have to convert over 1 billion people to another faith, and that’s not going to work. So that source of values is going to have to be their faith of Islam, which we as Muslims believe is a message from the God of Abraham to Muslims. But that message has to be put in a way that’s consistent with modernity and pluralism.

What can we do as a Western society within our community and what can we do, especially for non-Muslims and other organizations, to help this process along and move it along faster than the five hundred years of stagnancy that we’ve been under?

First, in our own societies, we need to be cautious about permitting parallel societies, parallel courts such as sharia courts where Muslims are given the “freedom” to set up their own legal court system. They would become an incubator for radical Islamism. Canada tried this, and the most vocal voice against sharia courts were Muslim women, even though they were told by the non-Muslims in Canada that “You don’t have to, it’s voluntary.” Once you get swept into this, it’s like fighting domestic violence in our own country. We must prevent the establishment of institutions that cater to that and allow the incubation.

Second, we see many examples like the taxicab drivers in Minneapolis who wanted to be separate from the society, not to carry people who were carrying alcohol, to impose their values on the passengers they picked up. Some may say that making a lot out of these issues is an exaggeration—“you need to lighten up.” But every opportunity I have to highlight examples, of what in medicine we would call pathegnemonic symptoms, of the pathology of Islamism, I will exploit that. Because they are doing the same thing. They are exploiting victimization issues and politics to use what we have now been calling law-fare to get us distracted, to sue individuals who are the biggest threat to their ideas. So that we’re all so busy fighting lawsuits such as the flying imams case (the six imams who filed suit against U.S. Airways in March 2007 for having been removed from a flight in November 2006 after behavior that many have called provocative) to distract us, to continue to divide society between Muslim and non-Muslim and to allow the continued inculcation of this Islamist ideology via Muslim collectivism.

A good example is Carver Elementary School in San Diego, which because of the third of its students who are Muslim wanted to move the lunchtime from 12:30 to 1:30 pm so that they could have their prayers. I wrote a column and on CNN talked about the fact that many of us grew up in public elementary schools praying and doing our own practices of faith without asking for the entire school to change its time schedule. You can step away during a break and practice your faith. Certainly I would not want schools to prevent Muslims from praying, they should be given the space to pray if they need it. Because that’s a personal faith practice. But once that personal faith practice crosses the line into society and starts changing the schedule of the general society or changing the cost to general society to the taxpayers, as we saw with the footbath incidents where the University of Michigan was paying $30,000 to install footbaths, that crosses the line of the founding principles of America. I don’t have a problem with private funding for that if they need it, fine. But not from the taxpayers. For once it comes from the taxpayers, then they should have allotted $30,000 for every other faith group in that university at the same time.

When I was growing up in the 1970s, I don’t remember Muslims asking for any of these things. It has almost become a tool of self-segregation and separating Muslims from non-Muslims so that they can continue this issue of minority politics. It’s becoming very potent and we have allowed it to take over the debate. It soaks up the bandwidth of American attention instead of allowing us to fight for freedom.

Islamic organizations today have only come to notoriety because of America’s fear of terrorism. If terrorism disappeared tomorrow, nobody would care about footbaths, schedules in schools, etc. Focusing on those issues would be the same as if a patient came into my office with lung cancer and I spent my whole time focusing on their cholesterol, headaches, and every other issue except the cancer. The Muslim community for credibility needs to start focusing most of its resources on the root cause of terrorism as a tactic, which is political Islam.

The methods of reform are manifold. First, engage the Muslim community on these issues, get informed about the difference between sharia law and constitutional law, and start to have discussion panels, not the interfaith, “kumbiyah” discussions that legitimize most Muslim communities’ leaders.

I have Frank Gaffney, executive producer of the documentary Islam vs. Islamists, to thank for connecting me with Dr. John Templeton and others. After his film, originally scheduled as part of PBS’ “America at a Crossroads,” was pulled from that series, it was shown on Fox News a couple of weeks ago. Ahmed Shqeirat, the imam who’s one of my main Islamist adversaries in Phoenix, in that documentary alluded to me (though not by name), claiming that I’m a “liberal extremist”. He went on to say that “people like me think we can somehow separate religion and politics and don’t want to acknowledge that every Muslim wants to live in an Islamic state, under sharia law.”

After the showing of the film locally, one interfaith celebration I knew of was cancelled in Phoenix. So people are starting to understand that there is a veneer of moderation from the Islamists. They know how to play the game outside the mosque, but these organizations are lacking on civil rights within their community. It’s a corruption that needs to be exposed. Ultimately, these institutions will disappear quickly once they start to be exposed to the regular American community that pays attention to hypocrisy.

So second, the Muslim community needs to be held accountable to its concept of umma. Umma is a word that is very prevalent in the Quran. It means “nation” or “community.” When an imam talks about umma, in Arabic and in his sermons, it is a threatening concept, because you then wonder at what point does an American Muslim follow the needs of the Muslim nation vs. the needs of the American nation to which he or she is a citizen. The Muslim community needs to “de-ummatize” itself, to really restrict the mechanism by which the umma is invoked. I would personally limit it to our study of theology and learning about the Quran and scripture; to charity that obviously all of our faiths seek to give; to socialization, obviously marriage within the faith is something all of our faiths try to do; and then last facilitating our hajj, our pilgrimage, and other aspects of practice and spirituality including mosques and community worship.

Third, we need to change the dreams. The dreams of most Muslims today are still wedded, because they have come from oppression and dictatorships, to religion, because the mosque was the last institution where they had a little freedom of speech, as long as they didn’t speak against their own government. That’s why the Muslim Brotherhood took over the mosques in Syria, and why the Wahhabis were able to spread texts into most of the mosques in the world, at a cost of $80 billion that they spent on spreading the radical word of Wahhabism. They were able to inculcate this literature into a lot of mosques, under the guise of most of these dictatorships.

We need to change those dreams from dreams of the utopian caliphate or Islamic states that bring them supposedly Islamic freedom to dreams of Western, individual freedom, where access to government and society is open to all. Much of the leadership on this must come from Muslim business leaders, who can argue for the kind of education that is needed.

Next, help us establish institutions. The Western enlightenment happened with the establishment of enlightenment institutions, classically liberal institutions that queried the church and government and began to question authority.

Hold some litmus tests and standards for the Muslims you engage with organizationally. They need to recognize Israel as a state, to stand against radical Islamist groups by name, not by theory, tactic, or condemning terrorism, but by name—Hamas, Al Qaeda and other groups. If they don’t have the moral courage to name the Saudis, the Syrian government, as an oppressive dictatorship, then you have to wonder where their allegiances are. These types of litmus tests are not being done enough even by our own government and the people they attach themselves to.

We need help in what I would call a counter-jihad that is still in its earliest, mitotic cell divisions. There are so many factors affecting the ability of Muslims to really contribute and get involved. One is because of fear—moderates are actually the first to be attacked; because of tribalism, because of the lack of knowledge. There are probably more people in this room who understand sharia than in most of the Muslim groups I’ve spoken to. That’s sad. It’s because the reins of understanding intellectual theology in Islam are just given up by most Muslims.

I will conclude with another Jefferson quotation that talks about the patience with which revolutions happen. “The generation which commences a revolution rarely complete it. Habituated from their infancy to passive submission of body and mind to their kings and priests, they are not qualified when called on to think and provide for themselves; and their inexperience, their ignorance and bigotry make them instruments often in the hands of the Bonapartes and Iturbides to defeat their own rights and purposes.” (Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, 1823)

Jefferson was talking about our country’s founding. He didn’t end slavery, but Lincoln, who did decades later, probably said it best: “America is the world’s last greatest hope for mankind.” We have to remember the ideas America stands for, that there are millions of Muslims who came here because of those ideas, and if we tell them that Islam is the problem, we will not win the war.

Dr. Jasser is founder and board chairman of the American Islamic Forum for Democracy (AIFD). A former U.S. Navy Lieutenant Commander, he served in the U.S. Navy as a medical officer from 1988–99. He finished his military service as a Lieutenant Commander with an Honorable Discharge in 1999 and is now in the private practice of internal medicine and nuclear cardiology in Phoenix, Arizona. This enote is based on his September 26 talk as the 12th Annual Templeton Lecture on Religion and World Affairs. Published by FPRI.

Today the western world looks upon Islam as a hostile religion and Prof. Huntington even made out a case for clash of western and Islamic civilisations. All this after years of de-colonisation and acceptance by western powers of pluralism. The hostility against Islam continues to be a determining factor in western politics. The western scholars too continue to attack Islam and Muslims. If there is no democracy in Islamic countries they blame Islam for this, not the dictators and irony of it is that presidents of USA remain very friendly with these dictators except the ones who do not bow down before America like Saddam Hussain or Ghaddafi or President of Syria.
Mrs. Anie Besant, a theosophist and freedom lover and founder of Theosophist Society of India in nineteenth century India, when India was still a colony of Britain, had much appreciative view of Islam. It is because these politicians view Islam from their political interests rather than as a religion.
The Danish cartoonists have shown total insensitive to religious feelings. For them hurting religious sentiments is also a part of freedom of press. These cartoons are extremely offensive as they make fun of the Prophet of Islam rather than any Muslim politician as if the Prophet was responsible for all that Osama bin Laden or his followers in Al-Qaeda have been doing. Whose fun do we make? One who is dead 1400 years ago and has nothing to do with contemporary developments in the world of Islam?
On the contrary Mrs. Annie Besant who lived in nineteenth century when there was no democracy and much more prejudice among orientalists against Islam, writes with so much sympathy and understanding abut Islam. I will share some of the observations of Annie Besant on Islam with my readers so that they can understand the difference between those scholars and journalists who write with prejudice and those who write with understanding.
Mrs. Besant writes in the foreword of the booklet, which is very essential to understand a religion: "an attempt is made to distinguish the essential from no-essential in each religion, and to treat chiefly the former. For every religion, in the course of time, suffers from accretions due to ignorance, to wisdom; to blindness, not to vision." Then she continues, "within the brief compass of a lecture, it was not possible to distinguish in detail, or to point out all the numerous on-essentials. But the following tests may be used by anyone who desires to guide himself practically in discriminating between the permanent and the transitory elements in any religion."
Her tests are as follows: "Is it ancient? Is it to be found in ancient scriptures? Has it the authority of the founder of the religion, or the sages to whom the formulation of the particular religion is due? Is it universal, found under some form in all religions? As regards spiritual truths, any one of these tests is sufficient."
Generally these later accretions Annie Besant refers to, become more important than the universal spiritual truths of any religion. These accretions are derived from local cultures, customs and traditions and hence for people of that area, becomes more fundamental that original scriptural pronouncements. Then there are political needs and arrogance of power, which distorts essential truths and real spirit of that religion. Religion of the ruling class is the political power and it is political power, which determines its contours rather than religion determining the contours and legitimacy of power.
Most of the scholars and journalists have no such basic vision and whatever they see being practiced, take it as the real core of religion and than either start criticising or even ridiculing it. Mrs. Annie Besant, on the other hand, tries to comprehend the essential spiritual truth of Islam, or for that matter of any religion.
Mrs. Besant, in order to understand religion of Islam, tries to first understand he biographical background of the Prophet. After describing his birth, his becoming orphan at a tender age, she continues, " Twenty -four years passed. He has been trading on behalf of a kinswoman, Khadija, far older than himself. She finds him so faithful, so frugal, so trustworthy, that they become man and wife - Muhammad not yet the Prophet, Khadija not yet the first disciple. Young man and older woman they are, but they live together so happily that their union remains one of the ideal marriages of the world, until she leaves him a widower at fifty years of age after twenty-six years of blessed married life."
She describes the Prophet as kind man leading a quiet outward life but engaged in terrible inward struggle, not satisfied with what he sees around him, poverty, slavery, suffering of the weaker sections of society. His wise counsels are forever for the poor and the distressed. He always keeps his word and is known as al-ameen, the trustworthy, surely the most honourable title a man can win.
As for his prophethood, Annie Besant describes it as follows: "Thus the years pass - years of struggle that few can measure and then on one night of nights as he lies there on the ground in his agony, a light from heaven shines around him, and a glorious form stands before him: 'Rise, thou art the Prophet of God; go forth and cry in the name of thy Lord.' 'What shall I cry?' 'Cry,' the angel says; and then he teaches him how the worlds were made, and how man was created. He teaches him of the unity of God, and the mystery of angles. He tells him of the work that lies before him. He, the most solitary of men, is to go forth and cry in the name of his Lord."
This story of the prophet is known to most of the Muslims but what is important is how sympathetically Mrs. Annie Besant, a Christian herself, narrates it with great sympathy and understanding. She perfectly understands the inner spiritual struggle, which the Prophet had to undergo before attaining prophet hood. All those who are not satisfied with the given society and its condition undergo such inner struggle before in their quest for the truth. The Prophet also underwent such inner spiritual struggle and spent days and days in the cave of Hira reflecting over the spiritual and material condition of Meccan society and it was in this cave that Truth was revealed to him, as Muslims believe, through Archangel Jibraeel.
The Prophet (PBUH), on being revealed this truth proclaims it to his fellow humans in Mecca. Mrs. Besant observes, "Among the many creeds of man there is none that is more earnestly believed, more passionately followed, than that spoken by the mouth of the Arabian Prophet and if the proof of belief be in conduct, then watch his followers and see how his word rules still the actions of their lives."
Mrs. Besant thinks that if a person has disciples from among his near and dear ones, that is the best proof of his sincerity and truthfulness as who knows a person from close quarters than his wife or sons or parents or daughters. Thus Mrs. Besant observes, The Prophet's first disciple was his wife, his next disciples were is nearest relatives. That says something about the man. It is easy to gain disciples from among those who do not know you, who see you only on the platform, who hear you only in a set speech. But to a Prophet to your close relatives is to be a prophet indeed."
Another genuine test of the truth of a great soul is how people not only love him but are ready to sacrifice everything including their lives for the sake of that truth. Without genuine conviction about the truth of the message no will stand utmost tortures and all conceivable troubles and even court death for its sake. The Prophet of Islam and the truth proclaimed by him won hearts and souls of his followers who were ready to face all troubles to protect and promote brought by him.
Mrs. Besant thus observes, " Some more gather round him, touched by his inspired words. But now fierce persecution breaks out, and his followers are called upon to endure terrible torture. His followers are torn to pieces; they are thrust through with stakes; they are exposed on the burning sand with faces upturned to the Arabian sun and with heavy rocks upon their chests; they are bidden to deny God and his Prophet; but they die murmuring: There is but one God and Muhammad is his Prophet.'
The people would not bear all such tortures without strong conviction in the truth of the message of Prophet. A pretender, a man of selfishness and violence to achieve his self designated goals as many western scholars project Muhammad to be, can never inspire ones followers to stand such unimaginable hardships. Only when one finds the message genuine, one will bear such unprecedented hardships.
The chiefs of Mecca even conspired to kill the Prophet but he manages to escape through the window of his small house and his cousin Ali, is ready to sacrifice himself by sleeping in his bed. The Prophet and his companion Abu Bakr, who chooses to accompany the Prophet (PBUH), are pursued and price is put on the head of the Prophet. The enemy does not remain silent. It pursues the Prophet and engages him and his followers at the battle of Badr. Prophet's own band is small while enemy is in much larger number and overawing indeed. They thus confront each other in the battle of Badr. It is not the Prophet who chooses to inflict war, it is enemy who is keen to defeat the prophet once and for all. Prophet wants peace but is forced into war. A small band of truth seekers vis-�-vis a mighty horde of enemy bent upon protecting its powerful interests. They clash - truth with interests and Mrs. Besant continues: The Prophet cries, 'O Lord! If this little band were to perish, there will be none to offer unto Thee pure worship.'
"This is Muhammad's first bloodshed", observes Mrs. Besant and proceeds, 'repelling an attack. He had ever been tender, compassionate, 'the womanish', as his enemies called him. But now he is no longer a private individual free to forgive all wrongs done to himself; he is ruler of a State, the general of an army, with duties to his followers who trust him. The days are coming when crimes that as a man he would have forgiven, as a ruler he must punish, and Muhammad the Prophet is no weak sentimentalist."
Though Mrs. Beasant is defending the Prophet as a head of the State, if one reads the Qur'an, the moral dimension cannot be lost sight of. The Qur'an repeatedly asserts Allah is Forgiving, Allah is Compassionate and Allah is benevolent. Thus throughout Qur'an one finds a palpable tension between the real and moral, political and ethical. Qur'an always gives precedence to moral over real and provides a transcendent vision. Transcendence is most fundamental to Qur'an and Qur'anic ethics.
Thus Mrs. Besant points out that "After the victory of Badr only two men were executed and, contrary to Arab usage, the prisoners were, by the Prophet's order treated with the greatest kindness, the Muslims giving them bread and keeping only dates for themselves."
Thus as far as the Prophet (PBUH) is concerned he was very kind and compassionate to the suffering of others. He is described by the Qur'an also as Rahmat lil 'Alamin i.e. Mercy of the worlds. However, there was violence everywhere in Arabia. It was way of life. One tribe attacking the other and killing in revenge (qisas) was considered normal. It was the Qur'an which portrayed Allah as Merciful and Compassionate and made 'afw (pardon) as morally superior to qisas (revenge)
The Prophet was so sensitive to suffering that even at the time of his death he asks his followers to pardon him if he has done anything wrong to them or to take qisas for that. Thus Annie Besant says, "And so things went on for ten years, and ten comes the end. And when prayers were over, they lift him up in the mosque, too weak to stand, Ali and Fazl on either side to hold him up, and he raises his feeble voice and cries: 'Muslims! If I have wronged any one of you, here I am to answer for it; if I owe aught to anyone, all I may happened to possess belongs to you.' One man says that he owes him three Dirhams and the coins are paid, the last debt to be discharged on earth."
Then Annie Besant comments (on the death of the prophet) "A noble life, a marvellous life; verily a Prophet of the Lord. And yet so simple, frugal, humble, patching his own worn out cloak, mending his own shoes, when thousands were bowing to him as Prophet - and gentle all around. 'Ten years', said Anas his servant, 'was I about the prophet, and he never said so much as "uff" to me.'"
Can we then portray the Prophet a "terrorist" as the Danish cartoonist did in the name of freedom of opinion and press? Does it show ignorance or prejudice or both? It is unfortunate that entire west today is reproducing these offensive cartoons and justifying them in the name of freedom of press. It is not only the question of freedom but also of proper knowledge about a person you portray. Where is the conscience where there is no knowledge?
Anie Beasant also defends the Prophet against charges of needless violence and slaying of kafirs. She writes, "But, they say, he preached war and extermination, and brutal bloody slaying of the unbeliever. It has ever been held, and laid down by Muslim legislators that when there are two commands, one of which is absolute, such as: 'Slay the infidel when he attacks you and will not let you practise your religion', that the condition, the limitation, is to be added to every such absolute command. This ruling is borne out over and over again by the practice of the Prophet. Concerning the infidel he says: 'that if they desist from opposing thee, what is already past shall be forgiven them; but if they return to attack thee, the exemplary punishment of the former opposers of the Prophets is already past, and the like shall be inflicted on them. Therefore fight against them, until there be no opposition in favour of idolatry, and the religion be wholly God's. If they desist, verily God seeth which they do; but if they turn back, know that God is your patron; he is the best patron and the best helper."
She also quotes an important verse from the Qur'an from chapter 17 'invite men unto the way of thy Lord, by wisdom and mild exhortation; and dispute with them in the most condescending manner, for thy Lord well knoweth him who strayed from his path, and he well knoweth those who are rightly directed. If ye take vengeance on any, take a vengeance proportional to the wrong which hath been done to you; but if ye suffer wrong patiently, verily this will be better for the patient. Wherefore do thou bear opposition with patience, but thy patience shall not be practicable unless with God's assistance. And be not thou grieved on account of the unbelievers; neither be thou troubled for that which they subtly devise; for God is with those who fear him and are upright."
Mrs. Besant has quoted an important verse, which summarises Qur'anic ethics. If one takes revenge, if should be proportional to the wrong inflicted and if one bears with patience (instead of taking revenge) it is always better and patience can be observed only with the help of God. Here we see that Qur'an permits revenge only as a matter of given reality but provides a transcendent dimension by asserting significance of patience (sabr). Sabr is a superior quality to revenge. Thus sabr is always preferable but if one wishes to take revenge it should be strictly proportional to the injury inflicted, not more. Thus the Qur'an makes us aware of superiority of oral over real.
However, if some Muslim violates the Qur'anic injunction and resort to violence out of all proportion to real, it is these Muslims to be blamed not the Qur'anic teachings. But the ignorant or those bearing malice towards other religion, will express opinion not based on real teachings of that religion but on the conduct of some of its followers and that too in the name of freedom of _expression. Freedom of _expression is by all means fundamental, even sacred, but has to be exercised with utmost sense of responsibility. There is no freedom without responsibility.
Mrs. Annie Besant held the Prophet of Islam in very high esteem and was well informed about the Prophet and his teachings. Throwing light on the conduct of the Prophet (PBUH) she says, "And look at his own conduct as illustrating his teaching. Never a wrong done him that he did not forgive; never an injury that he was not ready to pardon. There are faults in every faith; there are errors in the practice of all men. Ignorant followers often act wrongly, where prophets speak the truth. Judge a religion by its noblest, not by its worst, then we shall learn to love one another as brothers, and not hate one another as bigots and as fanatics."
If only we could follow this advice of Annie Besant, world will be very different. The Danish cartoonists created worldwide problem because they kept the worst examples of few Muslims before them totally ignoring what is the best in Islamic teachings. Freedom of _expression does not always mean writing or drawing anything expressing ones worst prejudices in its name. Many hate campaigners do precisely this. And even then they want to defend their right to freedom.
Throwing light on the teachings of the Qur'an, she observes quoting the verse from chapter 5, 'Who is better in point of religion than he who resigneth himself unto God, and is a worker of righteousness, and followeth the law of Abraham for the orthodox? Since God took Abraham for his friend."
She then says, "In that sense only is Islam the one religion; all men of every faith who surrender themselves to God are truly children of Islam. It is not the fault of the Prophet if his followers have narrowed it in later days. I appeal to the Prophet against his followers; as I have often appealed to the Christ against the Christians, and to the rishi-s against the modern Hindus."
It is important to note that when we dispute with each other we are guided by human ego rather than divine light and higher purpose. Those who understand and have knowledge will never quarrel on inter-faith differences. They will, on the other hand, live with these differences with proper understanding as human beings and leave it to God to finally judge who is right and who is wrong. What is wrong is due to human ego and what is right is due to divine light and higher purpose in life. That should be our approach to inter-faith problems.
Annie Besant is not a Muslim but has truly understood the essence of Qur'an and Islam, more than many Muslims do.

"I have studied him - the wonderful man and in my opinion far from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Saviour of Humanity. I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today."
George Bernard Shaw, The Genuine Islam, vol. 1, no. 81936.
But do you mean to tell me that the man who in the full flush of youthful vigour, a young man of four and twenty (24), married a woman much his senior, and remained faithful to her for six and twenty years (26), at fifty years of age when the passions are dying married for lust and sexual passion? Not thus are men's lives to be judged. And you look at the women whom he married, you will find that by every one of them an alliance was made for his people, or something was gained for his followers, or the woman was in sore need of protection." - - Dr Annie Besant (Dr Annie Besant in 'The Life and Teachings of Mohammad,' Madras, 1932)
A noted British author has observed: "No great religious leader has been so maligned as Prophet Mohammed. Attacked in the past as a heretic, an impostor, or a sensualist, it is still possible to find him referred to as "the false prophet." A modern German writer accuses Prophet Mohammed of sensuality, surrounding himself with young women. This man was not married until he was twenty-five years of age, then he and his wife lived in happiness and fidelity for twenty-four years, until her death when he was fourty-nine. Only between the age of fifty and his death at sixty-two did Prophet Mohammed take other wives, only one of whom was a virgin, and most of them were taken for dynastic and political reasons. Certainly the Prophet's record was better than the head of the Church of England, Henry VIII." Geoffrey Parrinder, Mysticism in the World's Religions (New York: Oxford University Press, 1976, pg. 121)

Ibrahim Mahfouz

Your point 1 and 2 are countlessly answered EVEN on faith blogs, more often by Muslim women then men. Even CCNL can tell you about it.

For your easy ref check my post on "Islam & Voilence

I would like to revise my introductory statement in the previous post to make it more in line with what I meant.
Moody:
You believe that all what is in the Quran is the absolute truth becaue it is the word of Allah as conveyed to His Messenger. There is an underlying assumption that Mohammad has integrity. Integrity implies an unswerving principles which manifest itself by practicing what you teach. Let us examine the evidence
1.
2.

Moody:
You contend tha the Quran has the Truth because it is Allah's word as relayed to Mohammed. You further imply that the "Messenger of Allah" has integrity. Integrity means practicing what you preach.Did he have integrity? Let us find out.

(1) The Prophet had grudgingly allowed his male followers to marry up to four if they satisfy the condition of “treating their wives equally”, yet he married eleven (11)

(2) He tried to situate himself within the roaster of Jewish prophets by adopting many of Judaism’s dogmas, practices and rituals, such as strict monotheism, abstention from eating pork and praying while facing toward Jerusalem. When he realized, after one and a half years, that the Jews of Arabia would not fall for his claim to “prophethood” he changed the orientation of prostration from Jerusalem, which was then called Aelia Capitolina, to Mecca (Bukhari, vol. 6, book 65, no 4492).
(3) He criticized poets and poetry. He did this with a poem and further had a private poet by the name of Hassan ibn Thabet, a sort of a poet laureate, whose job was to praise him and his deeds in peace and war.
(4) The Prophet claimed that he was illiterate (Quran 7:157) yet Muslims claim he had exhorted the believers to “seek knowledge from the cradle to the grave”. If so why didn’t he learn to read and write? Is it not that what is good for the goose is also good for the gander? Or how did he memorize word for word those very long chapters that he claimed Gabriel had dictated him in one sitting?
(5) He had built his whole movement on the concept of one God, Allah, who was not born nor had children (Quran 119:1-4), then turned around and stated that sometimes “the three daughters of Allah; Allat, Uzza and Manat, could intercede to believers with Allah” (Hadith relayed by ibn Ishaq 165-166).
(6) He preached sustenance (Quran 104:1-9) yet he accumulated a vast personal wealth that included vast stretches of date groves the Muslims had expropriated mostly from the Jews of Khaibar and Yathrib.
(7) He prohibited his followers from destroying enemy trees then violated his own decree by torching the palm trees of the Banu Nadir Jewish tribe.
(8) He praised Christians and Jews a few times (Quran 2:26, 5:69, 5:82, 22:17 and 29:46), then turned around and condemned them a number of times (Quran 3:110 5:14, 5:31, 5:51, 5:64, and 9:30-35).
(9) He broke his covenant with his adversaries on many occasions. He, for example, broke a truce with the Quraish tribe that was to last for ten years the instant he felt strong enough to defeat them and capture Mecca (Hadith relayed by ibn Ishaq).
(10) He agreed to have one of his young followers, Mohammed ibn Maslama, lie to the poet Ka’ab ibn Ashraf in order that the young man get close enough to murder the poet. That is because the poet wrote few unflattering verses about some Muslim women that upset the Prophet (Hadith relayed by Tabari).
(11) The Prophet publicly and with much fanfare adopted a Syrian slave boy, named Zayd. Later he forced Zayd to divorce his beautiful young wife, Zainab bint Jahsh, so that he could marry his daughter-in law, since Allah, according to him, sanctioned the union (Quran 33:37). Zainab, to her credit, balked at being a part of this scandal and relented only after hearing the “divine revelation”. To reconcile this horrendous act with previous admonitions that he loudly voiced against the marriage of men to their fathers’ or sons’ wives, he denied his relation to Zayd.
(12) He promised his favorite wife, Aisha, to abstain from sleeping with his Egyptian concubine, Maria. Shortly afterwards, Hafsa, another one of his eleven wives, caught him in bed with Maria during the night allotted to Hafsa. Incensed by what she considered was an insult added to injury she informed Aisha, despite his fervent pleadings. This resulted, as would be expected, in an ugly confrontation. The next morning Mohammed showed the betrayed and sulking Aisha* and Hafsa* a letter from Allah “exonerating the Prophet”, sanctioning him to sleep with “whoever he desires” and threatening his insubordinate wives to be replaced by “young black-eyed virgin nymphs” from Paradise. Allah dictated this message, he claimed, to Archangel Gabriel who delivered it to the Messenger of Allah overnight (Quran 66:1-5).

Oops,

Make that http://www.bibleandscience.com/science/quran.htm and http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/islam.html

The address extensions were in error in the original commentary.

Moody, Moody, Moody,

You definitely are in a Three B funk, i.e. Bred, Born and Brainwashed in Islam.

After a few weeks of deep breaths, deeper reading, and "googling" (e.g. http://www.bibleandscience.com/science/quran.htmho and http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/islam.html) you should come to the following conclusion:

The "depth" of Islam is based on a "pretty wingy talking flying fictional thingie" named Gabriel. Without "old Gabriel" (plagiarized from the NT and other ancient beliefs), there would be no Islam i.e. the depth of Islam is very shallow and revolves around a single "pwtff thingie".

Therefore contemporary Islam is a shallow cult based on oil profits, terror, fear of the sword, stoning, hand chopping and suicide bombers.

With respect to the "science" in the koran, it is simply more plagiarism of what was already speculated on mainly by the Greeks and Egyptians or simply just bad science. See added comments at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_relation_between_Islam_and_science

An excerpt:

"In complete contrast, others worry that the contemporary Muslim world suffers from a "profound lack of scientific understanding," and lament that, for example, in countries like Pakistan even post-graduate physics students have been known to blame earthquakes on "sinfulness, moral laxity, deviation from the Islamic true path," while "only a couple of muffled voices supported the scientific view that earthquakes are a natural phenomenon unaffected by human activity."[3]

CORRECTION:

CCNL:

I'm still awaiting any single reply???
Angel Gabriel (A.S) revealed Quran to Muhammed(p.b.u.h) send by Allah.

And below few examples out of whole is the PROOF of its PERFECTION, AN EVIDENCE OF THE TRUE REVELATIONS...PROTECTED..UNCHANGED..VERIFIABLE BY ALL LOGICAL SCIENTIFIC APPROACH.

Mohammed(PBUH) had no reason to lie,
other wise there would have been more than 50000 scientific, mathematical, logical, mythical mistakes, obscene pornography INCEST in Quran AS WELL like in your almost 200 KEEP ON CHANGING versions of Bible.

BUT THERE IS NOT A SINGLE SCIENTIFIC MISTAKE OR CONTRADICTION.

But there are things which are not yet scientifically discovered or proved. So it is not correct evaluating some thing that science does not APPROVE OR DISAPROVE ?
We humans know that there are countless entities which are yet to discover and beyond our present available knowledge OR OBSERVALBE BY OUR SIX SENSES.

AND IF MOHAMMED (PBUH) SAYS ALL THAT SCIENCE WHICH WAS HUMANLY IMPOSSIBLE UNTIL RECENT TIMES
IS REVEALED TO HIM BY GABREIL (A.S.) WHERE HE EVEN DON'T KNOW HOW TO READ OR WRITE,

THEN

WEEE BELIEVE !!!! He had no reason to lie.

Dave, Deb, BPC, CCNL, Kafir and all non believers you keep your commentary on all the time criticizing Islam BUT never answer a single direct question raised by any Muslim OR reply DIRECTLY on there comments to your posts.

IF YOU GUYS ARE REALLY HONEST, NOT WITH MUSLIMS BUT ATLEAST WITH YOUR OWN SELVES,

THEN DARE TO ANSWER BELOW:

You can close your eyes or do not accept for what ever reasons you have….twist or lie
BUT YOU CAN'T DENY THE TRUTH:
THAT EVERY RATIONAL INTELLIGENT LOGICAL KNOWLEDGE & SICENCE IS TESTIFYING FOR QURAN....AFTER EVERY NEXT DISCOVERY AND AWARENESS!

MODREN SCIENCE AND QURAN (ISLAMIC DIVINE BOOK)

Quran is not a book of science BUT a book of signs. It has more than 6000 verses out of which more than 1000 verses giving CLEAR signs about the modern scientific proven facts in recent couple of hundred years. (THIS BY ANY POSSIBLE MEANS CANNOT BE SAID BY US HUMANS 1400 YEARS BACK. THE ONLY LOGIC IS THAT IT’S FROM SOMEONE WHO IS COMMUNICATING TO A HUMAN AND KNOWS BETTER THAN HUMANS)

- For some people ONE sign is enough to believe.
- For some people 10 signs are enough.
- But some people don't come to believe even after more than 1000 miraculous signs.

Verses about:

1- Big bang theory (in a nut shell).
2- Geo spherical Ostrich egg shaped earth (spherical which is the exact shape)
3- Cosmic dust (referred more perfectly as smoke).
4- How water seep into the earth and rain cycle through AIR.
5- Sweet and salt water of oceans and barrier between them.
6-Expanding sun, solar system and universe for given period of time
7- Earth, sun and stars revolving on their axis and path (orbits).
8- Sun and moon have different paths (orbits).
9- Sun and stars consuming there energy.
10- Reflected sun light of moon. In Arabic mooneer (moon) it self means reflected light.
11- Upper thin layer of earth, which is hold by mountains as nails (bigger in size deep in earth) from shacking.
12- Perfect shape and stages of human embryo.
13- All living being made out of water.
14- All plants and even fruits have male and female attributes.
15- The exact way of plants and animal’s behavior and how they communicate.

AND MANY MORE............

THESE ARE ALL RECENT DISCOVERIES AND SIGN FOR THOSE SINCERELY SEEKING TRUTH!!!!!! AND REMEMBER THAT IS NOT WHAT QURAN IS ALL ABOUT... THESE ARE JUST TESTIFYING SIGNS WITHOUT ANY FLAW OR FAULT.

CCNL:

I'm still awaiting any single reply???
Angel Gabreil (A.S) revealed Quran to Muhammed(p.b.u.h) send by Allah.

And below few examples out of whole is the PROOF of its PERFECTION, AN EVIDENCE OF THE TRUE REVELATIONS...PROTECTED..UNCHANGED..VERIFIABLE BY ALL LOGICAL SCIENTIFIC APPROACH.

Mohammed(PBUH) had no reason to lie, other wise there would have been more than 50000 scientific, mathematical, logical, mythical mistakes, obsene pornography INCEST in Quran AS WELL like in your almost 200 versions of Bible. BUT THERE IS NOT A SINGLE ONE.

AND IF MOHAMMED (PBUH) SAYS ALL THAT SCIENCE HUMANLY IMPOSSIBLE UNTIL RECENT TIMES
IS REVEALED TO HIM BY GABREIL(A.S.) WHERE HE EVEN DON'T KNOW HOW TO READ OR WRITE, THEN

WEEEEEEEEEEEE BELIEVEEEEEEEEEE !!!!
He had no reason to lie.

We humans know that there are countless entities which are yet to discover and beyound our present available knowledge.

Dave, Deb, BPC, CCNL, Kafir and all non believers you keep your commentary on all the time criticizing Islam BUT never answer a single direct question raised by any Muslim OR reply DIRECTLY on there comments to your posts.

IF YOU GUYS ARE REALLY HONEST, NOT WITH MUSLIMS BUT ATLEAST WITH YOUR OWN SELVES,

THEN DARE TO ANSWER BELOW:

You can close your eyes or do not accept for what ever reasons you have….twist or lie
BUT YOU CAN'T DENY THE TRUTH:
THAT EVERY RATIONAL INTELLIGENT LOGICAL KNOWLEDGE & SICENCE IS TESTIFYING FOR QURAN....AFTER EVERY NEXT DISCOVERY AND AWARENESS!

MODREN SCIENCE AND QURAN (ISLAMIC DIVINE BOOK)

Quran is not a book of science BUT a book of signs. It has more than 6000 verses out of which more than 1000 verses giving CLEAR signs about the modern scientific proven facts in recent couple of hundred years. (THIS BY ANY POSSIBLE MEANS CANNOT BE SAID BY US HUMANS 1400 YEARS BACK. THE ONLY LOGIC IS THAT IT’S FROM SOMEONE WHO IS COMMUNICATING TO A HUMAN AND KNOWS BETTER THAN HUMANS)

- For some people ONE sign is enough to believe.
- For some people 10 signs are enough.
- But some people don't come to believe even after more than 1000 miraculous signs.

Verses about:

1- Big bang theory (in a nut shell).
2- Geo spherical Ostrich egg shaped earth (spherical which is the exact shape)
3- Cosmic dust (referred more perfectly as smoke).
4- How water seep into the earth and rain cycle through AIR.
5- Sweet and salt water of oceans and barrier between them.
6-Expanding sun, solar system and universe for given period of time
7- Earth, sun and stars revolving on their axis and path (orbits).
8- Sun and moon have different paths (orbits).
9- Sun and stars consuming there energy.
10- Reflected sun light of moon. In Arabic mooneer (moon) it self means reflected light.
11- Upper thin layer of earth, which is hold by mountains as nails (bigger in size deep in earth) from shacking.
12- Perfect shape and stages of human embryo.
13- All living being made out of water.
14- All plants and even fruits have male and female attributes.
15- The exact way of plants and animal’s behavior and how they communicate.

AND MANY MORE............

THESE ARE ALL RECENT DISCOVERIES AND SIGN FOR THOSE SINCERELY SEEKING TRUTH!!!!!! AND REMEMBER THAT IS NOT WHAT QURAN IS ALL ABOUT... THESE ARE JUST TESTIFYING SIGNS WITHOUT ANY FLAW OR FAULT.

Moody, Moody, Moody,

Hmmm, lets start with just one of the flaws in the koran as noted by Ibrahim:

"The angel Gabriel had 600 wings. (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 54, Number 455)"

"Google" this passage first to see a number of critiques. When finished reading these, proceed to the following:

Conclusion-

The "depth" of Islam is based on a "pretty wingy talking flying fictional thingie" named Gabriel. Without "old Gabriel" there would be no Islam i.e. the depth of Islam is very shallow and revolves around a single "pwtff thingie".

With the "pwfft" i.e. Gabriel and the "warmongering, womanizing, "holey not holy hallucinator" aka Mohammed what does one conclude about Islam?

A cult based on oil profits, terror, fear of the sword, stoning, hand chopping and suicide bombers.

More about "pretty thingies" and their ugly counterparts:

Mohammed had his Gabriel (this "tinkerer" got around).

Joe Smith had his Moroni.

Jehovah Witnesses have their Jesus /Michael the archangel, the first angelic being created by God;

Jesus and his family had Michael, Gabriel, and Satan, the latter being a modern day demon of the demented.

The Abraham-Moses myths had their Angel of Death and other "no-namers" to do their dirty work or other assorted duties.

Contemporary biblical and religious scholars have relegated these "pretty wingie thingies" to the myth pile. We should do the same to include deleting all references to them in our religious operating manuals. Doing this will eliminate the prophet/profit/prophecy status of these founders and put them where they belong as simple humans just like the rest of us.

Some added references to "tinker bells".

"Latter-day Saints also believe that Michael the Archangel was Adam (the first man) when he was mortal, and Gabriel lived on the earth as Noah."

Apparently hallucinations did not stop with Joe Smith.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07049c.htm

"This belief in guardian angels can be traced throughout all antiquity; pagans, like Menander and Plutarch (cf. Euseb., "Praep. Evang.", xii), and Neo-Platonists, like Plotinus, held it. It was also the belief of the Babylonians and Assyrians, as their monuments testify, for a figure of a guardian angel now in the British Museum once decorated an Assyrian palace, and might well serve for a modern representation; while Nabopolassar, father of Nebuchadnezzar the Great, says: "He (Marduk) sent a tutelary deity (cherub) of grace to go at my side; in everything that I did, he made my work to succeed."

Catholic monks and Dark Age theologians also did their share of hallucinating:

"TUBUAS-A member of the group of angels who were removed from the ranks of officially recognized celestial hierarchy in 745 by a council in Rome under Pope Zachary. He was joined by Uriel, Adimus, Sabaoth, Simiel, and Raguel."

And tinker bells go way, way back:

"In Zoroastrianism there are different angel like creatures. For example each person has a guardian angel caled Fravashi. They patronize human being and other creatures and also manifest god’s energy. Also, the Amesha Spentas have often been regarded as angels, but they don't convey messages, but are rather emanations of Ahura Mazda ("Wise Lord", God); they appear in an abstract fashion in the religious thought of Zarathustra and then later (during the Achaemenid period of Zoroastrianism) became personalized, associated with an aspect of the divine creation (fire, plants, water...)."

"The beginnings of the biblical belief in angels must be sought in very early folklore. The gods of the Hittites and Canaanites had their supernatural messengers, and parallels to the Old Testament stories of angels are found in Near Eastern literature. "

"The 'Magic Papyri' contain many spells to secure just such help and protection of angels. From magic traditions arose the concept of the guardian angel. "

For added information see the review at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel

Walakum-a-salam, Victoria!

Still no body have given SINGLE answer to the questions raised in my posts.

Instead adopted side track approach of NOT ADDRESSING THE MAIN ISSUE but criticized based on misinterpretations, wrong translations OR wrong approach of understanding.

TYPICAL MISSIONARY APPROACH!!!!

But on the contrary Islam or any Muslim doesn't back out or SNEAK AWAY.
We are there to answer every question!

We challenge there is NOT A SINGLE CONTRADICTION IN QURAN.

For kids primary education and simple understanding you can read Dr. Zakir Naik

"Quran in the Light of Modern Science"

This will answer most of your problems in your troubled minds!!!

Moody, Moody, Moody,

Hmmm, let us hear your specific comments about all the flaws in the koran as listed by Ibrahim. And by all means cite pages and give excerpts from Professor Naik's book to support your comments.

Start with koranic references about the "pretty wingie thingie" aka Gabriel and the fact you are required to believe in these "thingies" by koranic statutes. Be aware of course that such belief makes Islam simply a religion based on hallucinations and myth.

a salaamu alaikum moody-
you didnt post a link-
is this it?

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=islam+and+christianity+in+the+light+of+science+campbell+&search=Search

And again I meant to say Dr. William Campbell was publically embarrassed by Dr. Zakir Naik, who answered his every twisted interpretation and wrong translation in a very scientific logical fashion.
Where Mr. Campbell fail to reply a hardly any.

You can also read Dr. Zakir Naiks book.

"Quran in the light of Modern Sciences".

This will answer all your reservations, even if you think they are more than 60%.

HOPEFULLY IT WILL HELP TO CALIBRATE YOUR CONFUSED INTELLIEGENT APPROACH!

Ibrahim Mahfouz:

Dr. Campbell had an open debate with Dr. Zakir Naik and was saviorly embarrassed by Dr. Zakir Naik in April 2001 in there open debate in USA.

"Islam & Christianity in the Light of Science".

Go and watch the above video.

ALL OF YOUR MISITERPRETATIONS are answered there.

And Dr. Campbell’s book's sell is gone down to more than 80% since then.

Ibrahim Mahfouz:

My goodness, I knew of some of the problems with koran, but your analyses surely added to my education and hopefully will enlighten everyone especially Moody.

Moody
Continued; Internal contradictions

.
In Sura 22:47 and 32:5 Allah's day is equal to 1,000 human years. Allah's day is equal to how many human years?

In Sura 70:4, Allah's day is equal to 50,000 human years.

In Sura 41:30 and 57:21 there is said to be only one garden in Paradise. How many garden's are there in paradise?
In Sura 18:31, 22:23, 25:33, and 78:32 there are many gardens in Paradise.

Sura 56:7 says there will be three distinct groups of people at the Last Judgment. How many groups will there be at the last judgement?

Sura 90:18-19 and 99:6-8 say there will be two distinct groups at the Last Judgment.
Sura 32:11 The angel of death
Sura 47:27 The angels (plural)

Who takes people's souls at death?

Sura 39:42 "It is Allah that takes the souls at death"
Sura 35:1 Angels have 2, 3, or 4 pairs of wings How many wings do angels have?

The angel Gabriel had 600 wings. (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 54, Number 455)

Sura 54:19 - One day How many days did Allah need to destroy the people of Aad?

Sura 41:16 & 69:6,7 - several days

Sura 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, and 25:59 all clearly state that God created "the heavens and the earth" in six days. How many days did creation take?

Sura 41:9-12, the detailed description of the creation procedure, add up to eight days.

Sura 2:29 says the earth was created first and then heaven. Which was created first, the heavens or the earth?

Sura 49:27-30 says the heaven was created first and then the earth was created.
Sura 41:11 states that in the process of creation heaven and earth were first apart and are called to come together. Heaven and earth ripped apart or called together?

Sura 21:30 states that they were originally one piece and then ripped apart.

Does Allah forgive shirk? Sura 4:153, 25:68-71
Yes
Sura 4:48, 116
No

Jesus was born more than 1,000 years after Moses Moses and the Injil Sura 7:157 Allah speaks to Moses about what is written in the Injil (the book given to Jesus)
Sura 2:97 - The Angel Gabriel Who brings the revelation from Allah to Muhammad? Sura 16:102 - The Holy Spirit

Surah 18:89-98 says Alexander the Great was a devout Muslim and lived to a ripe old age. Alexander the Great Historical records show that Alexander the Great died young at 33 years of age. He believed he was divine and forced others to recognize him as such. In India on the Hyphasis River Alexander erected twelve altars to twelve Olympian gods.

Surah 9:30 says the Jews believe that Ezra is the Son of God - the Messiah Ezra the son of God This has never been a tenet of Judaism.

Surah 20:90-100 says a Samaritan helped the Israelites build the golden calf, and it mooed after coming out of the fire. The Golden Calf Samaritans did not exist as a people until at least 1000 years after the time of Moses and the Israelite exodus from Egypt.

Moody:
You should not have challenged anybody about "the truth of Quran". How could it be true if over 69% of it is balatant contradictions. Below are a sample of the "true knowledge" found in that book.

External Contradictions:

Introductory question
Science:

Solomon listening to ants? In Sura 27:18-19 Solomon overhears a "conversation of ants".
Is this possible based on our knowledge about the mode and complexity of ant communication?
The stars and the moon The Qur'an teaches that there are seven heavens one above the other [67:3, 71:15], and that the stars are in the lower heaven [67:5, 37:6, 41:12], but the moon is depicted as being in/inside the seven heavens [71:16], even though in reality the stars are much further away from the earth than the moon.
Qur'an and Science: Section Four in Dr. Campbell's book
Qur'an and Embryology
Can non-living matter think, feel and have a will?
The human embryonic development
The place of Sun rise and Sun set
The Seven Earths
Stars created to be thrown at devils?
Sun and moon are subject to man?
Mountains and Earthquakes
The impossible conversation
Solomon and the animals...
Shaking the trunk of the palm tree?
Thinking with the breasts?
All things are made in pairs? Sura 51:49 claims that everything is created in pairs. But this is not true! There are quite a number of things that have no counterpart and species where only one gender exists.

History:

The Qur'an Attacks ... Christianity?
Moses and the Samaritan?
The farthest Mosque?
Alexander the Great, a Muslim?
None else was named "John" before John the Baptist?
Two Pharaohs who crucified?
Burnt bricks in Egypt?
Were they utterly destroyed?
Jesus was not crucified?
The anachronistic title al-`Aziz given to Potiphar [with special gratitude to Islamic Awareness for making such a big deal about a minor point on a defunct web page, and forcing the issue into public attention.]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Qur'an in Contradiction to the Earlier Revelations:

Ultimately, the strongest, most serious problem of the Qur'an is that it affirms the scriptures of the Jews and the Christians as authentic and true revelation from God (cf. what the Qur'an says about the Bible), while radically denying central aspects of their message, e.g. the core themes of sacrifice and atonement in the Torah, the crucifixion of Jesus, the deity of Jesus and even the mere messianic title "Son of God" for Jesus, the very nature of God, the fall and the sinfulness of man (*, *), necessity and means of salvation, etc. For this reason Muslims had to invent the unwarranted theory of corruption of the earlier scriptures, even against the clear testimony of the Qur'an itself.

In the following some smaller discrepancies between the Qur'an and the scriptures it supposedly confirms.

Historical Compressions:
Saul, David, Gideon and Goliath
A Samaritan tempting the Israelites in Moses time?
Prophets and Kings in Israel before the time of Moses?
Moses and the Gospel?
Punishment for future disobedience?
Mary, the sister of Aaron?
Pharaoh and Haman?
Did Joseph's parents go to Egypt?
Abraham's name
Abraham and Solomon
Other contradictions in comparison to the Bible:

Introductory remark

Did God teach Adam the names of the animals?
Were Believers Really Called Muslims Before the Time of Muhammad?
The Quran’s Mistakes regarding the Biblical Patriarchs
Who Adopted Moses: Pharaoh’s Daughter or Pharaoh’s Wife?
A Flood in the time of Moses?
The Quran, Moses and the Tablets of Stone
Solomon Working with Demons
Israel's Response to the Covenant: ‘We Obey’ or ‘We Disobey’?
Where is the Blood?
Animal sacrifices for Christians?
How many messengers at Noah's time?
Why did the Queen of Sheba come to Solomon?
Ezra the Son of God?
Jesus reached old age?
Did the golden calf say 'Moo'?
Did disobedience result in extra commandments?
How many messengers were sent to Noah's people?
The Progeny of Abraham?
Two young men?

Moody, Moody, Moody,

What is that you do not understand about the following:

1. Abraham was a mythical character invented by the Jewish scribes to give a father/god-head to their foundations.

2. As with Abraham's legend, most of the OT is myth and embellishment.

CCNL,

YOU OR ANY BODY ELSE STILL HAVEN'T ANSWER A SINGLE QUESTION OUT OF ALL I ASKED?????

Could you ever be able to think for a moment that, WHY in according to what you call "plagiarized koran" only the correct information is included AND NOT THE WRONG ONE?

Who was 1400 years back choosing/screening the correct information???

And what about all the ADDITIONAL KNOWLEDGE THAT IS NOT PRESENT IN YOUR RECOMMENDED HISTORY??????

Your recommended history about,
-Flat Earth
-Incest (Prophets sleeping with daughters & mothers),short commings 13% present USA is incested today.
-Subjugation of women to men.
-Universe made in exactly six days and six nights.
-First earth and greenry was made and then light.
-Approval of slavery.
-Eye for an eye
-Creator became creature to make begotten son nonsense.
-Universe is only 10000 years old.
-AND MORE THAN 50000 ABOVE LIKE INCORRECT INFORMATION IN YOUR Biblical history and believes.

QUESTION: WHY A SINGLE WRONG & INCORRECT INFORMATION IS NOT "plagiarized"(COPIED) FROM YOUR HISTORY IN QUR'AN??

Will your brain EVER BE ABLE to figure it out??

Moody:
Below is brief history of Ka'aba that should debunk any claim of a relation between this structure and the Patriarch Abraham.
"This structure is a relic from Pre-Islamic times when it was used very much like today as a pilgrimage destination for the different Arab tribes of the Arabian Peninsula. The only difference is that before Islam it housed many of the idols of the different Arab deities. The Arab prophet, Mohammad, wanted at first to do away with this institution, but met a stiff opposition from his own tribe, Quraish, mainly on economical grounds. He compromised by incorporating it in his belief system. The people of Mecca were mostly merchants who looked at the Ka’ba as a tourist attraction that brought in business that was the sole source of income to that community and remained as such till the discovery of oil in the early 20th Century.

The Muslims further enhanced its appeal to the fast increasing Muslim population of the world by building a mythology around it very much like people do today with their tourist attractions. The Muslims claim that it was built by the Old Testament figure, the Patriarch Abraham, who is traditionally believed to be the father of Isaac and Ishmael, the fathers of the Jews and Arabs of Arabia, respectively. Furthermore God protected the structure from destruction in 570AD from an invading Ethiopian army by sending a flock of birds that showered the invading army with molten pebbles. Historians, on the other hand, explain the retreat of the Ethiopian army to the spread of an epidemic of small pox among the troops. Besides, Mohammad made the pilgrimage to the Ka’ba as one of the five pillars of his religion and further sweetened the pot by claiming a visit to that structure would erase all sins. The rituals that Muslims perform today around the Ka’ba during their pilgrimage, such as circumambulating around it in a counterclockwise direction for seven times, kissing the black stone, etc. are the same exact rituals performed by the Arab tribes in Pre-Islamic times.

The Patriarch, Abraham, could not have built that structure for many reasons. First he was never beyond the Egyptian delta. His descendents, the Ishmaelite Arab tribes, resided mostly in northern Sinai and the Syrian desert during Moses time in about 1500 BC. i.e. 500 years after Abraham’s time, and their holy place to which they did their pilgrimage was a place in the vicinity of Beer Sheba in Northern Sinai. Eratosthenes (6th Century BC), Herodotus (5th Century BC), Hristopoulos (4th Century BC) and Agatharcides (Second Century BC) visited the area and none mentioned Mecca. As late as 30 BC the geographer Strabo who visited the whole area between Sinai and Yemen and who wrote an exhaustive description of the region, including names of places and tribes, never mentioned Mecca, even though he mentioned names of tiny hamlets in the vicinity of present day Mecca. The first known mention of Mecca was in the 4th Century AD i.e. 2500 years from Abraham‘s time. Secondly there were at least twenty three similar structures in Arabia at the time of Mohammad. It seemed that each tribe built its own Ka’ba to house its idols. The Mecca Ka’ba had in addition to the many pagan statues, an inscription of Mary and Jesus on its walls which indicates that the Meccans used the place to attract as many of the Arab tribes as possible".

Moody, Moody, Moody,

First, the lack of evidence that Abraham even existed puts his notes anywhere to include any notes on any black rocks anywhere in the world in the legend/myth pile.

Second, again anything of a scientific nature or actually anything other than the death to infidel passages were plagiarized from the ancients i.e. Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer, NT and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics. Heck, Mo's scribes even "borrowed" much of what St. Paul and the pseudo Pauls had to say about women.

Like I said before, the koran is in need of a second edition but this time proper references should be given.

CCNL:

You didn't answere my questions????

Just for your info. one evidence the Isle made by Abraham to worship One God still exists. It is the oldest building on the face of the earth.
Today it is called "Kabah" in Mecca.

And histroy is still preserved on the earth if you bother to seek TRUTHFULLY!

And once again dare to answer my questions and try to find One Single Scientific/ rational mistake in Holy Qur'an????

Paganplace, Paganplace, Paganplace

Hmmm, you noted: " I think you, Concerned, still labor under a need to believe that there must be an 'unflawed and eternal' revealed authority, (even if you pretty much attack everyone but Christians for not having one while claiming not to be Christian) ...and this misses the point of having a civilization. "

First, it would be nice if there were some "unflawed and eternal" singularity out there but I do not need one to keep my sanity.

And "Attack"? Not really, just noting the flaws in the founders and foundations of the major religions as determined by many contemporary religion scholars.

And the synopsis of the flaws in the founders and foundations of Christianity as noted many times to include the first commentary of this thread is hardly a "flaw free pass" for Christianity:

"1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions (to include Christianity) was probably a mythical character. If he was real, he was at best a combination of at least three men. 1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT. http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics. http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

3. Luther, Calvin, Joe Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy talking flying fictional thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions)."

And if you follow the famous Five F Rule, "First Find the Flaws, then Fix the Foundations", you will have reduced all religions to the codes of human conduct as elucidated early on by the ancients with a few other recent codes like the Bill of Rights of the US Constitution. gwu.edu/~erpapers/humanrights/timeline/timeline1.cfm

Even Wicca and VooDoo's flaws could be subjected to the Five F Rule.

Moody, Moody, Moody,

Hmmm, you apparently don't read much on this blog. Here is one you missed: (after you digest this, I will submit a few more for your perusal and "approval".

From http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm (part of my synopsis of the flaws in the founders and foundations of the major contemporary religions)

"New Torah For Modern Minds

Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses. The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho. And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling nation.

Such startling propositions -- the product of findings by archaeologists digging in Israel and its environs over the last 25 years -- have gained wide acceptance among non-Orthodox rabbis. But there has been no attempt to disseminate these ideas or to discuss them with the laity -- until now.

The United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, which represents the 1.5 million Conservative Jews in the United States, has just issued a new Torah and commentary, the first for Conservatives in more than 60 years. Called ''Etz Hayim'' (''Tree of Life'' in Hebrew), it offers an interpretation that incorporates the latest findings from archaeology, philology, anthropology and the study of ancient cultures. To the editors who worked on the book, it represents one of the boldest efforts ever to introduce into the religious mainstream a view of the Bible as a human rather than divine document. "

CCNL,

Could you ever be able to think for a moment that, WHY in according to what you call "plagiarized koran" only the correct information is included AND NOT THE WRONG ONE?

Who was 1400 years back choosing/screening the correct information???

And what about other than all the ADDITIONAL KNOWLEDGE THAT IS NOT PRESENT IN YOUR RECOMMENDED HISTORY??????

Your recommended history about,
-Flat Earth
-Incest (Prophets sleeping with daughters & mothers),short commings 13% present USA is incested today.
-Subjugation of women to men.
-Universe made in exactly six days and six nights.
-Approval of slavery.
-Eye for an eye
-Creator became creature to make begotten son nonsense.
-Universe is only 10000 years old.
-AND MORE THAN 50000 ABOVE LIKE INCORRECT INFORMATION IN YOUR Biblical history and believes.

QUESTION: WHY A SINGLE WRONG & INCORRECT INFORMATION IS NOT "plagiarized"(COPIED) FROM YOUR HISTORY IN QUR'AN??

Is your brain ABLE to figure it out??

*blink*

I was responding to Concerned's post of the 6th... it seems I'm seeing the most recent posts at the top, for a change. :)

You know, Concerned, you keep saying this:

"The caste/laborer system and cow worship are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

For starters, what you call 'Cow Worship' is *not a problem* (nor is it really worshipping cows)

Wow, living among domestic dairy animals. How bizarre. (like that's not how we got domesticated cattle in the first place)

The caste system is a more complex social phenomenon than a religious one. I'm not really qualified to speak on it, but it has as much to do with the culture having been interfered with (and codified by non-Hindus in more recent centuries,) as the culture itself: the people of India are fairly conscious of this, if you asked me, ...abuse of Dalits is actually *illegal,* but it's all wrapped up in other factors.

You seem very indignant about 'flaws,' as if you were going to find a human system *without flaws,* and the real danger to humanity is that *very idea.* When you think you *have no flaws,* that's when *progress* stops. Mocking people for their foreignness will not help.

I've in fact heard comment that the caste system has been *arrested* precisely because Hindu identity has been threatened for a very long time. Under those conditions, people will cling to things they find unsatisfactory cause it's *all they feel they have.*

The ancient Irish had something like a caste system, ...something we'd find disquieting, but it actually conferred more rights and allowed for more social mobility than did the *class* system and serfdom that followed.

I think you, Concerned, still labor under a need to believe that there must be an 'unflawed and eternal' revealed authority, (even if you pretty much attack everyone but Christians for not having one while claiming not to be Christian) ...and this misses the point of having a civilization.

Making the world out to be all about rival authorities competing over claims to perfection are the *problem,* not the solution.

The Good Samaritan who tried to stop the Christmas-versus-Chanukah subway beating has two black eyes and a sore nose - but no regrets.

"I did what I thought was right," said Hassan Askari, 20. "I did the best that I could to help."

Askari, a Bangladeshi Muslim studying at Berkeley College in Manhattan, was on a Q train headed to Brooklyn late Friday when he came to the aid of young women confronted by a group of 10 thugs.

Fearful for the women's safety, he pushed one of the men away - and was then pounced on by the group, he said.

"They grabbed me and punched and beat me up," Askari said.

"They punched me first. I didn't get a chance to punch him back."

Askari, all of 5-feet-7 and 140 pounds, said he was left with a swollen face.

He said he didn't go to the doctor because he's too busy working two waiter jobs and doesn't have the money for medical care.

He was mystified as to why the men became so outraged when the women and their male friends wished them a "Happy Chanukah" while they were yelling "Merry Christmas" on the train car.

"I don't understand," he said. "They were just being nice."

One of the Jewish victims, Walter Adler, expressed amazement that Askari took the risk to try to help.

"That a random Muslim kid helped some Jewish kids, that's what's positive about New York," said Adler, 23, who suffered a broken nose and required four stitches to close a lip wound.

Askari's interference allowed Adler to pull the emergency brake, which alerted police to trouble on the train.

Moody, Moody, Moody,

It appears you need to review the science of the Greeks and the Egyptians. You will find all that is in the plagiarized koran plus some added information for the next edition of the koran hopefully this time properly referenced.

Dave, Deb, BPC, CCNL, Kafir and all non believers you keep your commentary on all the time criticizing Islam BUT never answer a single direct question raised by any Muslim OR reply DIRECTLY on there comments to your posts.

IF YOU GUYS ARE REALLY HONEST, NOT WITH MUSLIMS BUT ATLEAST WITH YOUR OWN SELVES,

THEN DARE TO ANSWER BELOW:

You can close your eyes or do not accept for what ever reasons you have….twist or lie
BUT YOU CAN'T DENY THE TRUTH:
THAT EVERY RATIONAL INTELLIGENT LOGICAL KNOWLEDGE & SICENCE IS TESTIFYING FOR QURAN....AFTER EVERY NEXT DISCOVERY AND AWARENESS!

MODREN SCIENCE AND QURAN (ISLAMIC DIVINE BOOK)

Quran is not a book of science BUT a book of signs. It has more than 6000 verses out of which more than 1000 verses giving CLEAR signs about the modern scientific proven facts in recent couple of hundred years. (THIS BY ANY POSSIBLE MEANS CANNOT BE SAID BY US HUMANS 1400 YEARS BACK. THE ONLY LOGIC IS THAT IT’S FROM SOMEONE WHO IS COMMUNICATING TO A HUMAN AND KNOWS BETTER THAN HUMANS)

- For some people ONE sign is enough to believe.
- For some people 10 signs are enough.
- But some people don't come to believe even after more than 1000 miraculous signs.

Verses about:

1- Big bang theory (in a nut shell).
2- Geo spherical Ostrich egg shaped earth (spherical which is the exact shape)
3- Cosmic dust (referred more perfectly as smoke).
4- How water seep into the earth and rain cycle through AIR.
5- Sweet and salt water of oceans and barrier between them.
6-Expanding sun, solar system and universe for given period of time
7- Earth, sun and stars revolving on their axis and path (orbits).
8- Sun and moon have different paths (orbits).
9- Sun and stars consuming there energy.
10- Reflected sun light of moon. In Arabic mooneer (moon) it self means reflected light.
11- Upper thin layer of earth, which is hold by mountains as nails (bigger in size deep in earth) from shacking.
12- Perfect shape and stages of human embryo.
13- All living being made out of water.
14- All plants and even fruits have male and female attributes.
15- The exact way of plants and animal’s behavior and how they communicate.

AND MANY MORE............

THESE ARE ALL RECENT DISCOVERIES AND SIGN FOR THOSE SINCERELY SEEKING TRUTH!!!!!! AND REMEMBER THAT IS NOT WHAT QURAN IS ALL ABOUT... THESE ARE JUST TESTIFYING SIGNS WITHOUT ANY FLAW OR FAULT.

Victoria,
Walakum-a-salam,

I really appreciate you and mischka effort to reply back all the AROGANT IGNORANT NONSENSE.

Unfortunately I'm not very fluent in English. But always try to help you sisters and all my brother as best as I could.

If you have noticed, which you all indeed that all the Islam bashers ONLY KEEP RAISING MOLESTED AND TWISTED QUESTIONS AND SO ARUGENT THAT HARDLY REPLY AGAINST ANY MUSLIM REBUTTAL OR RAISED QUESTION.

I have an impression on this Washington post blogs that they are really not interested in knowing about Islam BUT INFACT they are only thuming up ONLY FOR NEGATIVE PROPOGATION AGAINST ISLAM.

I believe the best way is and which you guys are already doing to your level best is that

KEEP ON REMINDING THEM
AND KEEP ON INTRODUCING THEM WITH THE TRUTH
AND KEEP ON ASKING THEM QUESTIONS BASED ON KNOWLEDGE
and push them to think and to answer instead of replying there every stupid question and personal attack!

Reply only where you feel necessary like sensible questions inquiring about Islam, code of dress or any other question seeking KNOWLEDGE!

Sister Leonella, a nun who devoted her life to helping the sick in volatile regions of Africa, used to joke that there was a bullet with her name engraved on it in Somalia. When the bullet came, she used her last breaths to forgive those responsible.

"I forgive, I forgive," she whispered in her native Italian just before she died, the Rev. Maloba Wesonga told The Associated Press at the nun's memorial mass in the Kenyan capital, Nairobi, on Monday.

Sister Leonella's execution-style murder over the weekend has raised concerns that she and other foreigners who have been killed in Somalia recently are victims of growing Islamic radicalism in the country.

Her slaying was not a random attack and could have been sparked by remarks by Pope Benedict XVI about Muslims that have sparked angry reaction from Muslims around the world, added Willy Huber, regional head of the Austrian-funded hospital where Sister Leonella worked.

The killing has once again turned the spotlight on the lawless Horn of Africa nation where a powerful, radical Islamic group, accused of having ties to al-Qaida, have all but wrested control of the country from the weak and factional Somali government.

With it has come a hardline Taliban-style rule complete with public floggings and executions. Its leaders have pledged to wage holy war against an African peacekeeping force which is supposed to arrive early next month to help stabilize the country.

On Monday a car bombing and a subsequent gunbattle killed 11 people in Baidoa, the headquarters of the weak government, 250 kilometers (150 miles) from Mogadishu. No one has claimed responsibility or been blamed for the attack, but the government spokesman said it was meant to kill the president, who escaped unharmed.

While most Somalis said they thought Sister Leonella's attack was linked by remarks the pope made linking Islam with violence, Abdurahman Mohamed Farah, the deputy leader of the Supreme Islamic Courts Council said the nun's killing was unrelated to the pope's speech, blaming it instead on Somali warlords who lost control of Mogadishu in June after intense fighting with the Islamic militia.

In recent months the Islamic group has extended its control over much of southern Somalia, challenging the weak, U.N.-backed government that hasn't been able to exert any power outside Baidoa.

"We will punish the culprits behind this nasty killing," he told journalists in the capital. One man has already been arrested in connection with the murder.

The rise of the Islamic militants has coincided with a wave of assassinations of both foreign workers and moderate Somali intellectuals.

Among them were Swedish journalist Martin Adler, who was killed in June during a demonstration in Mogadishu and a prominent Somali peace activist Abdulkadir Yahya Ali, who was murdered a month later. BBC journalist Kate Peyton was shot dead last year.

The United States has accused the Islamic group of sheltering suspects in the 1998 bombings of U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, while in recordings attributed to al-Qaida chief Osama bin Laden, he portrayed Somalia as a battleground in his war on the U.S.

The Islamic militia also replaced its moderate leader with hardline cleric Sheik Hassan Dahir Aweys, whom the U.S. has linked to al-Qaida. Aweys denies the allegations.

Matt Bryden, a regional analyst, said a renegade Islamic militia or warlords hoping to use the killings to taint the image of the Islamic courts could be behind the killings.

Either way instability and insecurity, which has sparked mass waves of refugees, is a threat to the entire region. "The rest of the world needs to be concerned about Somalia," he told the AP.

Sister Leonella, whose birth name was Rosa Sgorbati, had lived and worked in Kenya and Somalia for 38 years, her family said.

She was shot as she left the Austrian-run S.O.S. hospital Sunday. Her bodyguard also was slain. The two had been walking the 10 meters (30 feet) from the Mogadishu hospital to the sister's home, where three other nuns were waiting to have lunch with her.

"She had no chance," Huber added. "It was like an execution."

Sister Leonella was aware of the dangers in Somalia and used to joke that there was a bullet with her name engraved on it. "But this never deterred her or discouraged her," said Wesonga, who is secretary of the archdiocese of Nairobi.

In Mogadishu, Halima Hassan said Sister Leonella was a "kind person who loved mothers and children. We have lost a great person."

She added she hoped the killing would not lead to curtailed aid to Somalia.

lol! Sorry about the multiple posts, everyone.

For Brian Only:

A synopsis of the flaws in the founders and foundations of the major religion: ( This a "must read" for any brainwashed religist)

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was probably a mythical character. If he was real, he was at best a combination of at least three men. 1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT. http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm
2. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.
The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics. http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html
3. Mohammed, an illiterate, womanizing, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds these acts of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

4. Luther, Calvin, Joe Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy talking flying fictional thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

5. Hinduism (from an online Hindu site) - "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centered and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’."

The caste/laborer system and cow worship are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."
"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life.

Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations, embellishments, lies and myths surrounding the founders and foundations of said rules of life.

Craig,would you repeat that?

As an indoctrinated Christian myself,I consider myself fortunate to have been born and raised in the one true faith;all others are heretical.
It feels so good to be at one with the truth.

jacob settle down- your just posting too much too fast- thats why your comments are being held-

plus youre swaering like a sailor and being extremely elitist and arrogant-

what happened to eclation?

As some of the other posters have stated, I certainly appreciate the attempt at diplomatic language by Mr. Patel...I guess that's easier than calling this problem what it really is - sustained, indoctrinated bigotry.

I realize that there are complexities in this situation of which I am not aware, but to call bigotry anything less than what it is, belittles victims everywhere. Tribal religious and social divides are found in every country, not just developing areas. Even in this publication, there is currently a series of articles profiling one of many very large U.S. "tribes" - Jewish Americans.

It is very disheartening to see one of the worst (and most common) ailments afflicting our global society described so by Mr. Patel. Religion (tribal or otherwise) isn't really the problem here - people...intolerant, hateful people...are the problem, and always will be.

As some of the other posters have stated, I certainly appreciate the attempt at diplomacy by Mr. Patel. No blame assigned to anyone...hardly realistic, but I guess that's easier than calling this problem what it really is - sustained, indoctrinated bigotry.

I realize that there are complexities in this situation of which I am not aware, but to call bigotry anything less than what it is, belittles victims everywhere. Tribal religious and social divides are found in every country, not just developing areas. Even in this publication, there is currently a series of articles profiling one of many very large U.S. "tribes" - Jewish Americans.

It is very disheartening to see one of the worst (and most common) ailments afflicting our global society described so by Mr. Patel. Religion (tribal or otherwise) isn't really the problem here - people, intolerant, hateful people, are the problem, and always will be.

As some of the other posters have stated, I certainly appreciate the attempt at diplomacy by Mr. Patel. No blame assigned to anyone...hardly realistic, but I guess that's easier than calling this problem what it really is - sustained, indoctrinated bigotry.

I realize that there are complexities in this situation of which I am not aware, but to call bigotry anything less than what it is, belittles victims everywhere. Tribal religious and social divides are found in every country, not just developing areas. Even in this publication, there is currently a series of articles profiling one of many very large U.S. "tribes" - Jewish Americans.

It is very disheartening to see one of the worst (and most common) ailments afflicting our global society described so by Mr. Patel. Religion (tribal or otherwise) isn't really the problem here - people, intolerant, hateful people, are the problem, and always will be.

As some of the other posters have stated, I certainly appreciate the attempt at diplomacy by Mr. Patel. No blame assigned to anyone...hardly realistic, but I guess that's easier than calling this problem what it really is - sustained, indoctrinated bigotry.

I realize that there are complexities in this situation of which I am not aware, but to call bigotry anything less than what it is, belittles victims everywhere. Tribal religious and social divides are found in every country, not just developing areas. Even in this publication, there is currently a series of articles profiling one of many very large U.S. "tribes" - Jewish Americans.

It is very disheartening to see one of the worst (and most common) ailments afflicting our global society described so by Mr. Patel. Religion (tribal or otherwise) isn't really the problem here - people, intolerant, hateful people, are the problem, and always will be.

As some of the other posters have stated, I certainly appreciate the attempt at diplomacy by Mr. Patel. No blame assigned to anyone...hardly realistic, but I guess that's easier than calling this problem what it really is - sustained, indoctrinated bigotry.

I realize that there are complexities in this situation of which I am not aware, but to call bigotry anything less than what it is, belittles victims everywhere. Tribal religious and social divides are found in every country, not just developing areas. Even in this publication, there is currently a series of articles profiling one of many very large U.S. "tribes" - Jewish Americans.

It is very disheartening to see one of the worst (and most common) ailments afflicting our global society described so by Mr. Patel. Religion (tribal or otherwise) isn't really the problem here - people, intolerant, hateful people, are the problem, and always will be.

As some of the other posters have stated, I certainly appreciate the attempt at diplomacy by Mr. Patel. No blame assigned to anyone...hardly realistic, but I guess that's easier than calling this problem what it really is - sustained, indoctrinated bigotry.

I realize that there are complexities in this situation of which I am not aware, but to call bigotry anything less than what it is, belittles victims everywhere. Tribal religious and social divides are found in every country, not just developing areas. Even in this publication, there is currently a series of articles profiling one of many very large U.S. "tribes" - Jewish Americans.

It is very disheartening to see one of the worst (and most common) ailments afflicting our global society described so by Mr. Patel. Religion (tribal or otherwise) isn't really the problem here - people, intolerant, hateful people, are the problem, and always will be.

I have also met god and god says that heaven and hell are now, the rapture isn't in the future, it's now, god isn't far away, but at the core of our being.

Gospel according to Thomas

113 His disciples said to him, "When will the kingdom come?"
"It will not come by watching for it. It will not be said, 'Look, here!' or 'Look, there!' Rather, the Father's kingdom is spread out upon the earth, and people don't see it."

Anon,

At least I got your attention and you also learned a little in the process.

Concerned-

You're "...straining at a gnat, and swallowing a camel..."

Oh by the way, Thomas aka Moses of the NT, many NT exegetes after reviewing all the scriptures and related documents, doubt Jesus actually said:

1. "My Kingdom is not of this world." aka John 18:36

http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/180_Pilates_Questions

2. Ditto for Luke 2:1-20 The Proclamation of the Angels

http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/007_Of_Davids_Lineage

Both scriptural passages are again the authors' embellishments to raise Jesus to the god-Caesar status.

Thomas, The Moses of the NT, Baum,

With such visions, when might we expect to see you on 60 Minutes?? They might even make your story into a movie or at least a new TV reality series.

TO FRED EVIL AND THE REST OF HUMANITY:

On your post of 1-9-2008 at 3:16 PM you wrote, "Thomas Paul Moses Baum - ... You should, otherwise you are still wearing the blinders of your religion".

I don't know if you actually read what I write or not, but I do write about things that have happened to me.

I also write because God has chosen me to be His Mouthpiece.

I have met God the Trinity, and I tell you and everyone else, God is not even remotely like what some of the people that know His Name speak about Him.

It doesn't matter to me whether people believe what I say about God or not, I just happen to be His spokesperson, He chose me, I didn't choose Him but I have said YES.

I try to speak very plainly, simply and to the point because actually it is very simple.

People have free will and they can take personal responsibility or not for what they do or don't do.

Some say they know God's Name so it doesn't matter what they do, they seem to be either deceived, deceiving themselves or spitting in God's Face.

It doesn't matter if you believe in God or not, faith is a gift that no man should boast and also God is not the egomaniac that some think that He is or hope that He is, God is PURE LOVE, a Being of Love.

I know that is something that you can not even imagine, I know I couldn't, because before I met God, I believed but did not know and I had no idea that the statement, God is Love, was LITERAL.

God's Plan which He has had since before any of creation is for ALL of humanity and ALL of creation and I stake not only my eternal destiny but my everlasting destiny on it.

God is a searcher of hearts and minds not of religious affiliations or lack thereof so there is nothing to hide behind, as I have said, it is important what you do and why you do it and what you know.

Take care, be ready, see you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom when the seventh day dawns.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

C. J. Rosenberger,

A great synopsis and my compliments on making the right decision.

After reading and thinking about the historic Jesus, I made a similar decision after being a practicing orthodox Catholic for 55 years :

My rationale:

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was probably a mythical character. If he was real, he was at best a combination of at least three men. 1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT. http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics. http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

See also the Human Rights Time Line at gwu.edu/~erpapers/humanrights/timeline/timeline1.cfm

3. Luther, Calvin, Joe Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy talking flying fictional thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (physical resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

What is interesting is that the list of Catholic myths,as per my Catholic theology professor friend, already is being taught in many Catholic graduate school courses as being mythical . So stay tuned, a new Catholic Church is coming.

TO THOPAINE:

You wrote, "No difference!Christianity has not delivered what it preaches."

Whether you or anyone else believes that Jesus is Who He is or not, what Jesus said about His Kingdom was, "My Kingdom is not of this world".

He also said, "I have overcome the world", if anyone looks at the reality of the world and doesn't see that there is much wrong in the world situation, so to speak, they must have their head buried somewhere.

Both of the above quotations refer to things that all will see one day.

The Proclaimation of the Angels at Jesus's Birth, "This is Good News for ALL PEOPLE", will come to Fruition in God's Time.

Take care, be ready, see you in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

TO THOPAINE:

You wrote, "No difference!Christianity has not delivered what it preaches."

Whether you or anyone else believes that Jesus is Who He is or not, what Jesus said about His Kingdom was, "My Kingdom is not of this world".

He also said, "I have overcome the world", if anyone looks at the reality of the world and doesn't see that there is much wrong in the world situation, so to speak, they must have their head buried somewhere.

Both of the above quotations refer to things that all will see one day.

The Proclaimation of the Angels at Jesus's Birth, "This is Good News for ALL PEOPLE", will come to Fruition in God's Time.

Take care, be ready, see you in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

I have been a practicing Catholic for 58 years. As the years have passed, some of the dogma my religion stood for did not sit well with me. This past year when the pope made the outrageous statement that the Catholic religion was the only true religion, it was time for me to leave. I still believe in God, and I pray for world peace, but the most important tenet I believe now, is very simple. Treat everyone as I would like to be treated. It's so simple a child can understand it.
With that single belief, there is no room for political posturing or religous beliefs that just don't work in the world we live in today.

A repeat from yesterday, scroll down or simply read the following as I surely did not and would not ignore an Islamic Canuck-

"Muslim from Swift Current, Canada,

You try to obfuscate the issues of the day with myths and embellished history. The real issues are the flaws in koranic Islam that threaten the security of the tribal and transcendental globe. How goes your report on how to correct these flaws??"

Thomas Paul Moses Baum - You don't seem to get that many folks simply do not accept ancient re-written texts to be valid sources of fact. Try correlating what you read in there with the real world. Notice the inestimable flaws and inaccuracies? You should, otherwise you are still wearing the blinders of your religion.

I WISH folks who now describe themselves as 'Good Xtians' were HALF as decent as the soldier in the parable Mr. Patel shared with us. They AREN'T, and simply claiming to be right because your ancient re-written text says so, gets you no traction, no respect and certainly no sway over those who take reality into account.

Best of luck with your dirt nap.

)FSM(
/|||\

If tribal religion wins, it necessarily pits groups against one another based on identity, and it means that people like Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris are right – religion will destroy everything.
If transcendent faith wins, it opens the possibility for different identity groups to use their particular narratives to articulate a collective vision that includes everybody.
If that isn’t the future, there will be no future.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Very well put. So AFTER the world religions put tribalism to bed AND then agree to agree on some common trancendent faith then we can prove Sam Harris wrong?
But until then Sam Harris is likely correct. As I have said, religion is no longer cute. Its mere existence violates it own tenets.

Dear Dr. Eboo,

Not sure if you noticed, but just thought I let you know that the RSS feed on this website is not indexing your blog posts. When you click on RSS feed icon at the top, you will see all the other posts made by On Faith contributers except for yourself.

Perhaps you would want to inform the web masters.

PS: you are extremely popular among the masses hence this is a minor note for correction.

I am amazed that so many intelligent people on this forum (in this world, I suppose) point to others and either damn them to hell or call them dumb.

Then, I have learned a lot from the hell-bound and ignorant.

The following is a tiny portion of what the Sioux shaman, Black Elk, experienced during a summer’s day in 1873:

“Then I was standing on the highest mountain of them all, and round about beneath me was the whole hoop of the world. And while I stood there I saw more than I can tell and I understood more than I saw; for I was seeing in a sacred manner the shapes of all things in the spirit, and the shape of all shapes as they must live together like one being. And I saw that the sacred hoop of my people was one of many hoops that made one circle, wide as daylight and as starlight, and in the center grew one mighty flowering tree to shelter all the children of one mother and one father. And I saw that it was holy.”

nice to hear.

nice to hear.

THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU!

I am so DISGUSTED by tribal, NEO-CON wanna-be christians who wouldn't throw a life preserver to a drowning man if it had to come from under the hatch of their own boat... and then have the temerity to criticize those who do!

I am so DISGUSTED with the illegal, tribal, evangelical prosteletizing in our military. It is the most unamerican, unconstitutional shame ongoing, and unabated.

I am so DISGUSTED with the tribalism of the fundamentalist/nationalist jews and fundamentalist/nationalist muslims thwarting peace at every possible opportunity.

TRIBALISM IS AT THE CORE OF EVERY SINGLE CONFLICT THE WORLD-OVER AND HAS ALWAYS BEEN SO. TRIBALISM IS IGNORANT, BACKWARD, AND SUITED TO CAVE DWELLERS WHO NO LONGER THINK FOR THEMSELVES BECAUSE BEING TRIBAL IS SOOOOOOOO MUCH EASIER.

ANONYMOUS,

Your posting at 9:47 p.m. on Jan 7 " OOPS
Concerned The Christian Now Liberated: is diagnosed with Excessive, compulsive behavioral disorder!!!"

You don't get it. This guy is raving mad, ferociously crazy, and should heave been locked up long ago.

I have encountered him often (right, CONCERNED?) and he now ignores me.

But I think that the shrinks might not!

Hello, there, CONCERNED THE CHRISTIAN NOW LIBERATED. Doing all right?

Eboo:

The appeal of tribal religion is much stronger than that of a transcendental one. Otherwise we won't see a thinking man such as yourself still believing in the tribal faith you practice.
Aabrahamic faiths by default are tribal, especially Judaism and Islam. Judaism is tribal by birth while Islam is nothing but imposition of Arabic tribal customs on others. Although I don't believe in Christian doctrine, it has the best record of being transcendental when it comes to helping non-Christians.

Sad to see you waste your life away defending a faith that was imposed by sword by the Arabs on your Indian forefathers. Have you ever read the Jain and Buddhist philosophy which your ancestors most likely practised? But since you belong to a tribal faith, you seem to be closed minded unwilling to believe in your own capacity to reason and engage in a meaningful debate with others on this forum. What kind of interfaith dialogue is it when you never answer a single email on this forum?

Have you looked at yourself in mirror lately?

Some people rely on religion more than God. It is not and should not be about religion, but about christianity. Not all people are like that. There are nonchristians who do do good things and there are ones that dont. Also there are christians who do the good and some who are hypicrites and all the things the bible says not to be. God also didnt say you would make into heaven becauses of your good deeds, but when you accept him. Christians make judgements and arent always right, but they are humans and are sinners, but by the grace of God he saves and wrath of God will be soon. It is just something we all will face. Who is to say God isnt real if you never experienced a relationship. I know from personal experience, from a healing situation. So for people who are quick to say it isnt real, and all this other things about the church, youre judging without knowing. As a human. Not all christians are the same. I dont base my religion on christianity. Just think for the people who say He isnt real, well what if you just tried. It is better to be concious than to think you know it all.

I am not a believer and I am a good American.

I was raised Catholic and other than 'Love thy Neighbor' (which most of you conveniently ignore) I think the whole story is fiction. There are no miracles. Santa Claus does not exist. Thomas Baum is living in fantasy land. You are not helping the country by burying your head in your faithy delusion.

If you can't find a way to make your beliefs less fundamental and absolute and more tolerant, I will not respect your beliefs.

and I AM a good American.

Our Christians are not critical thinkers;
Knee-jerk reactions to the feeble words that trickle from the pulpit, devoid of meaning and relevance.

They fell for the manipulations of Rove and allowed America to be sullied by the Rapacious Republicans.

We were had and the notion of Faith is what caused it. It's a more dangerous drug than crack and meth put together.

I will never respect another thoughtless Christian.

Correction. And not of Sin:

"Think About It! Thank You.

Praise The Holy NO-Man Lord G-d Eponymous ECLAT + "i" = LIFE/PHOTONS Philosophy via a NEW-SONG (Aquarius-AGE, commence 2012) for US HUMATES comming from ALL O.U.R. Old-Songs (Pisces-AGE, started 26,000 B.C.)!"

"NO"-MAN is the plugin here. Tonka Shame.

I am sick of all these " christians" who write in about Christ, love, peace and good will. Where is any of that in evidence since jesus lived? All I see is death and destruction for 2000 years,much of it in the name of Christ!
Christianity is a FAILURE OF GIGANTIC PROPORTIONS. I HAVE POST CARDS SHOWING JESUS BLESSING SOLDIERS GOING INTO BATTLE, OF PRIESTS CELEBRATING MASS JUST BEFORE THE HOARDS(OUR BRAVE YOUNG MEN AND WOMEN) ARE LET LOOSE TO KILL.
How can you be a priest and participate in mass killing? Does the priest say to the faithful,be sure to let your enemy know that you love him before you stick a knife in his neck!
Is it ok in christianity to slaughter those you love?You talk a good game about peace, especially around December,but you have NEVER delivered peace.
No one has practiced christianity since jesus died...and no one will.One might say that nothing is wrong with christianity , but with christians.I say, so what? No difference!Christianity has not delivered what it preaches.What good is it, except to make people feel good at the sunday church chicken dinner? Try to be honest and admit that it is a failure. This is the first step to recovery, and will set you all free, and stop the carnage as well!!

many religious groups believe in the "i'm right and you're not" principle; that attitude condemns those unlike them. what of the good folks who believe in the One, True God but not "as I do"? Our Catholic priests tell us to love all people, as we are all children of God. It is sometimes difficult to be transcendent, as we are basically a tribal animal, but Christ tells us to rise above that and love everyone as we love ourselves. that is the simple yet incredibly difficult task He gave us; Dietrich Bonhoeffer is an inspiring example of that true Faith. I hope I can do much better in the future and be an example to others. That is what we should all hope and pray for. Peace and God bless.

Dear Mr Patel

As a Christian by conviction I can say with certainty that there is nothing tribal about what Jesus taught, nor about the life He lived. If Christians have failed, it is because they have not followed the command of Jesus to love others as He loved. Jesus made it clear, "If you love me, you will follow my command. Love one another." Jesus did not suggest that His followers love one another, including their enemies; He COMMANDED it, as proof of love for Him.

Hitler was neither a religious leader nor the founder of a religion. He did not gain political power on a religious ticket. What he "preached" was German nationalism to a people who were poor and lacked self-confidence after losing WW I. It was that vulnerability Hitler cashed on and gave the German people a sense of national identity and pride in their ethnicity. That Hitler took it to insane extremes is well documented. That Hitler was not psychologically balanced is now clear in hindsight. Please watch the movie "Downfall," for a German researched version of Hitler's last days. Many Germans opposed his dictatorship and got killed for the effort. When the government controls the media and dissent is punished with death, all know that obedience to the political regime is not necessarily a sign of approval of government. Oftentimes it is merely fear of death that motivates obedience. A comparison of Hitler's dictatorship with any religion, whether tribal or transcedent is inappropriate. Bonhoeffer's resistance to a political ideology and giving up his life for the cause is not about him following a transcental version of Christianity; it was about being a Christian in the highest sense as Jesus preached and lived it. There were many Germans who resisted Hitler for political reasons and ended up being killed as well. Willy Brandt is the famous example of a German who left Germany and fought the Nazi army as an outsider.

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

a salaamu alikum moody and mr malleck, andlets not forget mischka bravely fending off the dragons in here alone- (shes extremely capable at that)

wow mr malleck- - that was deep-

ive speculated that constantines conversion dovetailed pretty nicely with coalsecing his disparate sectors into a cohesive government-

but to develop a science to explain the mechanics- that is bold and harmonious
peace

ps- i hope you dont mind that i put the link here-

http://www.metanexus.net/Institute/
my little brain is blown away

a salaamu alikum moody and mr malleck, andlets not forget mischka bravely fending off the dragons in here alone- (shes extremely capable at that)

wow mr malleck- - that was deep-

ive speculated that constantines conversion dovetailed pretty nicely with coalsecing his disparate sectors into a cohesive government-

but to develop a science to explain the mechanics- that is bold and harmonious
peace

ps- i hope you dont mind that i put the link here-

http://www.metanexus.net/Institute/
my little brain is blown away

Eboo makes a good point. Sadly, the majority of the world's population lack the education and intellectual environment to develop their own personal power of introspection and thoughtfulness. In many cultures, asking questions and open discussion of such topics is still tabu. Fundamentally it comes down to a neurotic desire for control over others, and the inability to see society as anything else but a hierarchical construct, which without the religious / social leadership and its orthodox perspective, would collapse. What we are really talking about is enlightenment (or heresy, depending on your perspective), which I submit is a direct by product of education. If the tribal forces are gaining ground, as can be evidenced by both Christian evangelicals in the US as well as the Talibanisation of west Asia, then we have failed in educating an entire generation about the fruits of human knowledge available to us.

Eboo makes a good point. Sadly, the majority of the world's population lack the education and intellectual environment to develop their own personal power of introspection and thoughtfulness. In many cultures, asking questions and open discussion of such topics is still tabu. Fundamentally it comes down to a neurotic desire for control over others, and the inability to see society as anything else but a hierarchical construct, which without the religious / social leadership and its orthodox perspective, would collapse. What we are really talking about is enlightenment (or heresy, depending on your perspective), which I submit is a direct by product of education. If the tribal forces are gaining ground, as can be evidenced by both Christian evangelicals in the US as well as the Talibanisation of west Asia, then we have failed in educating an entire generation about the fruits of human knowledge available to us.

How true. And let's also remember that those who aren't standing up for the Palestinians, Lebanese, Iraqis and all victims of zionism do not deserve to call themselves Christian , either.

This says it all. We're not to be enclaved and segregated, but out there loving and not simply "being right and Christian!"

TO CHAOTICIAN:

You wrote, " I always wonder what sort of God would exhort his followers to force others to believe", that is a very good thing to wonder about.

Even tho some calling themselves "christian" thru the ages have done this, it is just the opposite of what Jesus taught.

Jesus sent His followers out to the ends of the earth to Proclaim the Gospel, the Good News, by the sword of Truth not the sword of steel.

Jesus also taught them to Love their enemies just because it hasn't always worked that way does not take away from what Jesus actually taught but what some that call themselves "christian" twisted it into.

The god of islam on the other hand teaches to spread his message by the sword of steel and to treat those that don't convert with, at the least, second-class status.

Sharia law seems to be quite a natural outgrowth of islam, or does that just seem to be true?

Jesus is not a prophet of islam even if the god of islam claims that Jesus is.

I do not hold it against Mohammed that He was deceived.

As I have said before God does not look at your religious affiliation or lack thereof, but He looks at you, in other words knowing God's Name is not some kind of magic, even the demons know God's Name.

It does matter what you do and why you do it and what you know, God is a searcher of hearts and minds.

Anyone trying to set up a theocracy on earth in Jesus's Name have absolutely no idea what Jesus taught but plenty have tried to do it in the last two thousand years.

I have said it before and I say it again, the seperation of church and state that is part of the ideals that the United States was founded on could have come right from Jesus's sayings when He said, "Give to God what is God's and to Caesar what is Caesar's".

Jesus did not try to force Himself on anyone and anyone that tries to force Jesus on anyone is not following what Jesus taught.

As I have said before, God is a Being of Love, Pure Love and His Plan is for ALL OF HIS PEOPLE, and all people are His people.

Don't forget God wins, satan loses, a tie is unacceptable.

Take care, be ready, night is coming but the dawning of the seventh day will arrive in due time, God's Time.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Muslim from Swift Current, Canada,

You try to obfuscate the issues of the day with myths and embellished history. The real issues are the flaws in koranic Islam that threaten the security of the tribal and transcendental globe. How goes your report on how to correct these flaws??

we are human beings, for tens of thousands of years tribalism equated with survival. religion evolved as one of the glues that held together that tribe; myths&religious explanations of the unknowable. one believes in an absolute as do other members of the tribe. it was natural evolution of social order. the problem is our tribes are in too close proximity to each other and we are in a competition for supremacy of the absolutes of our beliefs. for there to be some trancendance above that belief is beyond most of us and thats the rub. to the faithful if you believe in christianity all others are apostate,same with islam and jews. you can't have it both ways. and to become trancendant above this naturally will lead to questioning the absolutes of your faith. and if your faith is not absolute,what is it or better yet WHY is it?the belief in humanism that we are our brothers keeper,to feed the hungry and clothe the naked,to be good for the sake of being good.these are the lubricants of society. true with or without religion.

Just one question: does not this argument somehow imply that Bonhoeffer can be a good Christian just because you and I happen to be Muslims and he can patronage us?

I prefer Peter Turchin’s cliodynamic interpretation of the evolution of religious ‘narratives’ or ‘paradigms’ as survival strategies, a thesis whose grounding in facts is being scientifically tested in research projects currently being funded by the Templetion Foundation (see metanexus.net). Peter Turchin argues that that it is from this perspective that the two defining moments of the boost to the spread of the two religions with the largest following at this point in history are best understood, The first defining moment, of course, was that of Roman Emperor Constantine on his raod to Damascus. Facing apocalyptic unrest and decline that were tearing apart his empire while he was marching his army on its way to Damascus, he psyched himself into seeing a cross in the sky with the words “In Hoc Signo Vinces”. There and then he adopted the religion of the downtrodden Christian masses who had theretofore been oppressed by his own army and succeeded not only in reversing the decline but expanding further his empire. The second case is that of Tamerlane. He was despondent when, in 1370, he was leading his army south of Tashkent and crossed the Amu Darya at Termez. There he met Imam Sayid Baraka of Andkhoi, ‘one of the most illustrious lords of the house of the Prophet’ according to an eminent historian of the time. The imam foretold to him his magnificent future under Allah’s protection. Timur there and then converted from Mongol shamanism to Islam, and from that moment proceeded onto his conquest of the greatest empire of the time. In his book, War&Peace&War, Turchin tells us of Timur’s later meeting, in the year 1400 outside the gates of Damascus which his troops were laying siege to, with the acknowledged ‘father of cliodynamics’ (the scientific study of the manifold forces that account for the evolution of history), Ibn Khaldun, who pointedly asked him why did such a formidable warrior in front of whom all of Europe and Asia was trembling, convert to Islam. Timur would then explain to this erudite Arab what ‘Asbiya – human solidarity – means, a term which the most modern experts in behavioural science and cliodynamics would call ‘social and spiritual capital’.

Yes, at this point, it is the ‘transcendance’ of religion that prevails, but it is not some kind of a vaporous ‘transcendance’. It is ‘trascendance’ grounded in the brutal reality of daily life and evolution and the need for survival. More importantly, this 'trascendance’ is dynamic and, unlike a steady state, it evolves in a process that has many feedback loops.

The tribal forces are ascendant, both in these writings and in the world! Many of the writers seem to be stuck on your Islamic tradition and can not even hear the message of your editorial.

How ironic that the Old Testament of the Jews and the Christian Bible is used by humdreds of Christian tribes as literal truth and yet these clans reach startling different beliefs about what these literal words actual say...much less what behaviors one should exhibit for the actions with non-tribal folks. I always wonder what sort of God would exhort his followers to force others to believe...is he so shallow that the form of belief is what is important? It is pretty obvious that those who evangelize are at best misguided and deluded; more likely they seek to reinforce their delusion by ignoring all contrary evidence which includes anyone not in the fold and of course, petty tyrants seem to be drawn to such oganizations whereby they can use their bully skills with impunity!

I guess I don't get how someone can claim to be a Christian, see someone in real need, have the ability to help them, and not help them. Worse yet, questions someone else helping them. I would wonder that even if I wasn't a Christian because that is the message of Jesus--the person the entire faith is based on.

I guess we have some growing to do, but I have faith that people will transcend because God wants them to, designed us to. We're evolving spiritually and maybe that's the real evolution. Evolving the spirit and not the flesh. Not an argument, just an idea.

How rare! In this age of divisiveness and partisanship to find someone who, with foresight and true perception, sees that the future lies not in tribalism and chauvinism but in working for the common good and the unity of all people. Mr. Patel, it must be a pleasure to be around you and work with you on a daily basis. This article has captured the true meaning of faith and reason among all the ones that have been written and produced in the many years that I have been studying the religions of the world.
What many seem to miss about the opportunity of sharing in the faith of others is that, not one faith holds the key, but that all have a piece of the truth and there are none who have a corner on the wisdom and knowledge of G-d. It must be a very boring and uninteresting life to think that, "I am the only one who is going to heaven." To not know that, the length and breadth of experience are not wrapped up in my little corner of the world, is to weep. As humans, who have not experienced the infinite and divine, can we with haughty attitude say, "No one but me and those who think like me?"
We do not have all the answers, we are not the sole arbiters of knowledge and wisdom, but that in all, are bits and pieces of the many-coloured wisdom and love of G-d.
May all who live and love find the answers they seek, not only in one faith but in the richness and varying experience, that is the love and compassion of G-d.

Eboo
You’ve chosen the classic universalist approach – set up a false dichotomy between care/collective vision for all human beings (“transcendent faith”) and daring to have specific beliefs to the exclusion of contradictory beliefs (“tribal faith”). It happens to be an element of the Christian “tribal faith” that we are to reach out to all people, whether fellow Christian or other religion or no religion, whether friend or stranger or enemy. True Christians are indeed engaged in charitable and humanitarian work, around the world and in their own neighborhoods. They simultaneously would readily affirm (as Bonhoeffer did) the particulars of their faith as recorded in the Bible.

Jeff
Humility doesn’t preclude believing that your beliefs are true – that’s what makes them beliefs. Nor is it bigotry to affirm those beliefs – it’s bigotry to demean or discriminate against those who differ.
Jesus was humble, unbigoted, compassionate and caring like no other. Yet you can read that He most certainly had beliefs that He actually believed to be true, to the exclusion of all others.

As Americans, many of us have become worse than the tribal peoples Patel describes. Some of us have become so self centered we have no concern for extended families or neighbors. True tribal people would put the needs of the tribe before the needs of the individual.

Mr. Patel:

Tribal religion is not a necessary condition to the criticism of Hitchens and Harris of religion. They criticize religion for approving self-validating irrational belief. Believe that and there is no logical stopping point before reaching the conviction that everyone who does not believe as I do must convert or die.

Is this end point of religion tribal or transcendent? It is tribal in its point of view (my way), but transcendent in its goals (my way for everyone).

Irabea,

You commented: "Thank you Eboo and thank you WaPo for having such a consummate Muslim that I can be proud to speak in Islam's name."

Hmmm, Islam's name and you take pride in the following???

Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, warmongering, hallucinating Arab who also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "pretty wingie thingies" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds these acts of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

As always excellent analysis. Thank you Eboo and thank you WaPo for having such a consummate Muslim that I can be proud to speak in Islam's name.

Thank you!!

please check 4 truth
how can a religion be of God... and 4 God... but dependant upon the fickle choices of admittidly fallible humans. isnt it more likely we have it backwards ... that thier is one true God seen from the many different perspectives... and perhaps these viewpoints are a piece of a much greater whole... instead of the whole peice... when it comes 2 spiritual enlightening... it would seem 2 me that a persons or a religions reach would bee dependant upon the people who were treated as humans, humanely... regardless of thier deep felt convictions as they pertain to spirituality.... what is right, what is kind and what is actually needed in each individual instance...should be the minimum provided by any one claiming to speak for God.... but i'm juat an artist

Eboo Patel writes-

"The transcendent see in the same particularity a universalizing of care, and therefore focus their energies on all people, especially groups most in need, regardless of creed."

Before eBay, YouTube, and Google, we used FidoNet via a dial-up modem to share information and knowledge with others working with AIDS. Much practical wisdom came from those in Africa with a greater wealth of experience. In 1994, when trouble came to Rwanda, we were among the first to hear in America.

There were many brave people whose stories of courage poured out of Africa. One man was a true hero, a man of peace and great wisdom, and a Muslim not often mentioned these days. Too few people remember this hero's name or his selfless acts of love, performed with an easy smile on his face in spite of many obstacles. Run a Google or YouTube search and you will find little or nothing about him. As far as I know, Frontline's documentary "Ghosts of Rwanda" (EXCELLENT) is the only place his story has been told in America.

from Wikipedia-

"Captain Mbaye Diagne was a Senegalese Army officer and a United Nations military observer during the 1994 Rwandan Genocide. He is credited with saving many lives during his time in Rwanda through nearly continuous rescue missions at great peril to himself.

A devout Muslim, Mbaye was one of nine children born to a family living near Dakar, and the first to go to college. Following his graduation from the University of Dakar, he joined the army as an officer. In 1993 he was seconded to UNAMIR, the United Nations peacekeeping force sent to Rwanda as a military observer of the implementation of the Arusha Accords. He was stationed at the Hôtel des Mille Collines, a luxury hotel located in Kigali.

The start of the Rwandan Genocide was signaled by the assassination of Rwandan President Juvénal Habyarimana on the evening of 6 April 1994. Hutu hardliners, who had opposed negotiating with the rebel Tutsi Rwandan Patriotic Front, began implementing a plan to kill moderate politicians. The following morning Prime Minister Agathe Uwilingiyimana and her husband were assassinated by soldiers of the Presidential Guard. The ten Belgian peacekeepers assigned to her protection were also murdered. Later that morning, Mbaye heard rumors of Uwilingiyimana's murder from people fleeing to Hôtel des Mille Collines. Unarmed, he came to investigate and found the prime minister's four children being hidden in the adjoining United Nations Development Programme housing compound. He was discovered later that morning by UNAMIR Force Commander Roméo Dallaire, who was trying to find out what had happened to the prime minister. Dallaire told Mbaye to wait for UNAMIR armored personnel carriers to rescue the children and UNDP employees later that day, but the APCs never appeared. Mbaye eventually put the children in the back seat of his vehicle, covered them with blankets and made his way to the hotel.

Despite U.N. rules of engagement prohibiting observers from going out to save civilians, it soon became apparent to other UNAMIR employees that Mbaye was continuing his rescue missions. The head of humanitarian operations in Rwanda gave an explanation as to why Mbaye was not rebuked: "here's someone who stepped out of line and [the general is] not going to discipline him because he's doing the right thing." The number of lives he saved is variously given as "dozens upon dozens" and "at least hundreds". Because he had to pass through dozens of checkpoints tasked with killing Tutsis and moderate Hutus, Mbaye ferried at most five people on each trip. In order to get past, he relied on his extensive contacts among the military and militias, his ability to defuse tense situations with quick jokes, and occasional bribes of cigarettes and money."

This all sounds so matter of fact. It wasn't. There is no way to tell you of the chaos and fear that ruled during this time. The streets ran with blood. Bodies littered the Kigara River and could be seen floating down into Lake Victoria. Yet this man was able to perceive need and ran to meet it time and again. All this against the strict orders of his superiors. He was a true friend of God and his story deserves to be told and remembered.

Transcend: def, to go beyond sense times 5 and enter the pure state of silent light. The state enlightenment. Meditation and prayer are common practices. Unless one has been a Buddhist monk for 25 years the best to achieve is but a glimpse of the transcendental, and when you have seen it, please come back and tell us that we all might go there.

re: transcedental Vs. tribalistic religions
The main objection that enlightened people everywhere has against Islam is its tribalistic nature. It divide the whole world int two separate entities; the House of Peace, meaning Islam, and the House of War, meaning everybody else. This is the root cause for the intolerance that we see today in the Muslim culures.

boo boy is at it again. forget the god part and learn the truth - islam is not a religion its a cult of death.
trying to point anyplace else to avoid that truth does not work anymore boo boy.
you and all islamics and either actual murders or you want to be. there is no other choice. you either follow the korans demand to make everyone islamic or kill them or your not islamic.

Thomas Baum?

My flying spaghetti monster can beat up your flying spaghetti monster. See you after school behind the basketball courts. Oh, and Jesus said it's your turn to bring the Kool-Aide!

Apologies for double-posting!

Ebrahim Patel
A human is both a transcendental being and a tribal animal!
Religion (like many other affiliations) provides a context within which we can practice our tribalism. But unlike other contexts like nationalism, religion also allows for us to express and evolve our transcendence.
As a human mind evolves, it becomes less tribal and more transcendental.
More tribal societies tend to be happier with more legalistic, rigid systems (such as his faith) whereas more transcendental ones prefer more evolved systems (like the Dharmic traditions).

In general the most enlightened minds among us do not even need a frame or a context to undertake their journey. They are adherents of “Swa-Dharma”; their very own, very personal Path! The world may call them sages or Yogis or Buddhas but it hardly matters to them!
Some among these enlightened ones share their bliss with others. Those teachings then become tools in the hands of politicians and crooks. These crooks then cook these teachings and make them suitable for the consumption by “tribal” masses. They call the new recipe, “Gods word” or “Immutable ultimate truth” or a “True faith” and the cycle repeats!

Someone has complimented Ebrahim for being a bridge builder. But in truth he is merely an apologist for his faith who plays nice in his columns! (Mostly, except when talking about Hirsi Ali) And tries to convince us that his faith’s teachings are somehow as benign as those of Budhha, Upanishads or Bahaullah!

Ebrahim Patel
A human is both a transcendental being and a tribal animal!
Religion (like many other affiliations) provides a context under which we can practice our tribalism. But unlike other contexts like nationalism, religion also allows for us to express and evolve our transcendence.
As a human mind evolves, it becomes less tribal and more transcendental.
More tribal societies tend to be happier with more legalistic, rigid systems (such as his faith) whereas more transcendental ones prefer more evolved systems (like the Dharmic traditions).

In general the most enlightened minds among us do not even need a frame or a context to undertake their journey. They are adherents of “Swa-Dharma”; their very own, very personal Path! The world may be call them sages or Yogis or Buddhas but it hardly matters to them!
Some among these enlightened ones share their bliss with others. Those teachings then become tools in the hands of politicians and crooks. These crooks then cook these teachings and make them suitable for the consumption by “tribal” masses. They call the new recipe, “Gods word” or “Immutable ultimate truth” or a “True faith” and the cycle repeats!

Someone has complimented Ebrahim for being a bridge builder. But in truth he is merely an apologist for his faith who plays nice in his columns! (Mostly, except when talking about Hirsi Ali) And tries to convince us that his faith’s teaching are somehow as benign as those of Budhha, Upanishads or Bahaullah!

Correction-- WAPO has reported on the Orissa situtation, My mistake.

Patel,
By your own definition of Tribal, I think Islam has to be most tribal religion with Mohammed's birthplace allowing no freedom of religion to non-Muslims and 50 other Islamic nations with only about 2-3 percent non-Muslims living under constant fear.

And Muslims killing in other places to create more 100 percent Islamic nations-Kashmir, Thailand, Phillipines...

Mr. Patel
Christians are being killed by Hindus in the Indian state of Orissa.
Why is the media ignoring what is going down in Orissa. Better question why have you and WAPO kept silent on this grave situation?

On Monday, the day before Christmas, a group in the Kandhamal district led by activists affiliated with the (World Hindu Council) attacked Christian institutions in the area, including a convent and seminary. Rioters also targeted two church-run inns and high schools as well as many shops owned or run by Christians. Since Christmas Eve, similar groups have attacked Christians in their own homes,many Christian families are afraid to return to their homes due to fear of violence; as you read this many are hiding in nearby jungles.
Hindus have often attacked Christian missionaries and its converts. They accuse Christians of luring their poor and uneducated tribal people to convert to Christianity with money and promises. The Hindu of Orissa demanded and received a law requiring people to obtain police permission before they change their religion. That counters missionary work and affords for an easier more efficient persecution of Christians.
It appears that news of Christians dying is no news at all.
As of yet no one is transcending in Orissa, I guess they too need police permission before they will stand up for another human being.

Nice sentiments, but the truth is stubborn. A few Muslims in Morocco helped save a few Jews from Nazis. But these kind Muslims refuse to acknowledge that they helped Jews because they are afraid their fellow Muslims will look down upon them. I cannot imagine a more tribal religion that Islam.

I agree with Jeff that these are noble sentiments.

While Eboo and those of use who agree with the column may be looking at an uphill battle it is one we must engage. If we do not challenge the status quo why would it change?

The law of floatation was not discovered by contemplating the sinking of things. It was discovered by contemplating floatation.

What Eboo is getting at is we are all one and if we contemplate this long enough we may discover that we are indeed all one and that when we act as such we will accomplish many great things.

Until then we will wallow in our own thoughts about ourselves and stifle our evolution both spiritually and as a civilization.

You can choose to speak out or you can choose to let the status quo reign. If your thoughts on religion are working for you don’t change a thing. If it is not working for you then change a thing.

I applaud Mr. Patel's efforts to be a bridgemaker. I think Dietrich Bonhoeffer is a stunning example of human dignity, concern for fellow humans without regard to creed.

Where I (as a former Christian for 46 years) feel we're off mark here is that in order for the feel-good relationships that might happen among all religions to be a reality, most of their sacred scripture will need to be jettisoned or ignored.

Thomas Baum's ability to think about these things will forever be dictated within the framework of his Bible, and I think his response demonstrates the formidable task you (and we all have) ahead of us, Mr. Patel.

Also, I'll never rely on transcendent "faith," only transcendent humanism.

Here we go with another religionist column that feels the need to start off with an apocryphal story about how "good Xians" show their faith helps humanity, setting the stage for the exegesis that follows.

It would never occur to the columnist to set his make believe story in modern times with the good deed being done by an atheistic philanthropist like Bill Gates or Warren Buffett. No, that wouldn't serve his "ah c'mon, everybody, religions do good! It's all about the people" agenda.

BTW Mr Patel - Hitchens and Harris have already "won." The proof? Columnists like yourself feel the need to take them on with columns like this one where the only way one can make the case for religions doing good is to float phony examples of do-gooding, and do-gooding that has been tempered by secular society to boot!

Eboo: "After Kristallnacht, he said to his fellow Christians on German radio, “Those who did not stand up for the Jews do not deserve to sing Gregorian Chants.”

And who stood up for the jews and the Christians when Muhammad killed them by the thousands and exiled them from the Hijaz? They are not allowed to even step in the city of Mecca and Medina, housing millions, even today, and you were praising the Hajj only a few weeks ago!

Does the hypocrisy you exhibit, nag your conscience just a little ever? Come on Eboo Patel, who and when did anyone has ever stood up for the pagans, christians, and jews butchered by the thousands, and enslaved and sold and gifted by the thousands by your Prophet of the religion of peace?

TO EBOO PATEL:

You wrote, "If tribal religion wins, it necessarily pits groups against one another based on identity, and it means that people like Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris are right – religion will destroy everything."

They ARE NOT RIGHT.

Actually they are just another tribe.

Jesus really is Who He said that He is and that is God-Incarnate and guess what, God-Incarnate, Himself, told us that the world is going down the tubes, so to speak.

Jesus did speak about the new heavens and the new earth, did He not?

The bible speaks of the end times, those end times may be in your personal life or they can be in the life of humanity.

You also wrote, "All of our faiths have a definition of discipleship that transcends the tribe."

When the apostles asked Jesus to teach them how to pray, He said when you pray, say, "Our Father..." think about it, can you think of anything that is more inclusive and more intimate especially when in another place Jesus said to think of God the Father as ABBA which translates as Dad or Daddy.

God created absolutely everything except for Himself, the Trinity.

God is Pure Love and God has a Plan and God has had that Plan since before creation and His Plan will come to Fruition.

God wins, satan loses, a tie is unacceptable.

The captives shall be released and the dead shall rise.

Take care, be ready, see you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Religion is about faith. It should remain private and totally separated from the state. Nobody on this earth knows better than the others. Nobody is qualified. Children should never be brainwashed with religion, just respect of all other human beings and living things,love,compassion and all the qualities that make us humans.
Religion is about faith, hallucinations, power,sects communautarism, separation,hypocrisy,war you name it.

Eboo,

As Weinberg noted it does religion to get good people to do evil, especially what you are calling tribal religion. How can anyone make your favorite religion, Islam, non-tribal? Every other verse in your Quran is hate towards the other. Why does your Allah hate the non-muslims so? It is one thing for a muslim to hate the christians and the jews and the hindus, but what does one say when it is your Allah that hates them and curses them in th Quran? What do you call a religion that teaches to hate the other? It is not the mullah, not the Imam, not the scholar in Islam that hates the non-muslims, it is your Allah and that hate is written all over the Quran. Why?

Anon,

And where might there be disorder in the list of religious flaws????

Correct these flaws and the world will be a much more peaceful place!!!!

Mike Huckabee fits your description of tribal religion. His proud pronouncements of party politics while proclaiming that his faith defines him is characteristic of a tribal mentality.
Ohg.
http://thefiresidepost.com/2008/01/07/death-penalty-politics/

Noble sentiments, Mr. Patel, but unfortunatelty most people of the majority faiths in a particular country would ignore or discount them as wrong. Sadly, people of the majority faiths in various countries around the world seem to think that their faith is more "true" than other faiths and the beliefs of humanists and atheists who are classified as "non-believers." The downfall of the human race is simple bigotry, I'm sorry to say, and religious bigotry is as popular as ever around the world.

It never seems to occur to people, or appeal to people, that it is unnecessary to be bigoted toward other religious views to be religious. Why? Maybe because people are, in general, afraid that if they admit that their religious faith is just that - faith - that they might be wrong. That is too much for people to accept, I guess. But isn't humility a value supposedly promoted by the major faiths? And hypocrisy is supposed to be discouraged by these faiths, isn't it?

Noble sentiments, Mr. Patel, but unfortunatelty most people of the majority faiths in a particular country would ignore or discount them as wrong. Sadly, people of the majority faiths in various countries around the world seem to think that their faith is more "true" than other faiths and the beliefs of humanists and atheists who are classified as "non-believers." The downfall of the human race is simple bigotry, I'm sorry to say, and religious bigotry is as popular as ever around the world. It never seems to occur to people, or appeal to people, that it is unnecessary to be bigoted toward other religious views to be religious.

OOPS
Concerned The Christian Now Liberated: is diagnosed with Excessive, compulsive behavioral disorder!!!

Oops, make that "Transcendental".

Eboo,

Tribal or Transdental type, they both have the same flaws in the founders and foundations of their religions.

Once again for those that have not seen the synopsis of said flaws:

A synopsis of the flaws in the founders and foundations of the major religions for those that have not seen them before or have never taken the time to look:

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was probably a mythical character. If he was real, he was at best a combination of at least three men. 1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT. http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics. http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

3. Mohammed, an illiterate, womanizing, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds these acts of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

4. Luther, Calvin, Joe Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy talking flying fictional thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

5. Hinduism (from an online Hindu site) - "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centered and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’."

The caste/laborer system and cow worship are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."

"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life.

Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations, embellishments, lies and myths surrounding the founders and foundations of said rules of life.