Obama's comments about Islam and Muslims have alienated a sizeable number of American Muslims because he has refused to come out and say something like "I'm not a Muslim, just a Christian, but there's nothing wrong with someone being Muslim" when responding to those who think "being Muslim" should be and can be an effective smear against him.

here's an excellent comment i found on another blog-

It’s not that Muslims are “losing our voice,” per se; it’s that you have an extremely gullible non-Muslim populace that’s so ignorant about the subject of Islam that: (1) they can’t tell which voices are authentic and which voices are not, and (2) they won’t accept anything that doesn’t PANDER to their PREJUDICES. The con men, either going under a “progressive” Muslim banner or out-and-out declaring themselves to be apostates, gladly sell their souls for a miserable price. The shame of it all is that this sort of problem has arisen when the masses have lost their ability to THINK CRITICALLY. In the meantime, there are plenty of Muslims, individually and collectively, who do speak out and try to mitigate the damage. But until the ignorant masses begin to make an effort to open their minds and seek real understanding about Islam, they will remain the greater fools.

You’re being lied to. If you’re a non-Muslim and think that the only “moderate” Muslim voices are the likes of Irshad Manji, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Tarek Fatah, Ed Hussein, Wafa Sultan or any other “progressive” Muslim or apostate, then you’re a greater fool than I thought. Let me clue you in: these people do not speak for Muslims. They have ZERO credibility among the Muslim community. These people do not understand Islam and cannot accept Islam as it is. What they want is Islam Lite. Chrislam. Call it whatever you will, it’s not ISLAM. It’s religion according to their own nafs, their own ego, which is exactly what many people do when they create their own cafeteria religion, picking and choosing what they like and rejecting anything that doesn’t fit into their own preconceived notions. If you want to follow your own cafeteria religion, fine, be my guest. But don’t expect Muslims to do the same.

taking ayann ali hirsi seriously as a source of information on islam is like asking david dukes to compile a history of african americans-

first- her islamic education ended at age 16 when she left islam-
she never was a scholar of islam and is not now-

she does have a great deal of anger at her own culture and has made quite the career of confusng what happened to her in somalia and misrepresenting her personal experiences as doctrinal islam.

not that she even did anything to help the muslim women whose cause she used to advance her career in politics- she immediately abandoned the women after she got her seat in parliament-
such hypocrisy does not go unnoticed.

and those who previously supported her also felt te bite of her betrayal and have renounced her-
she sings a one note song of malice that most have tired of hearing- including the american enterprise institute which has publicly expressed regret at having embraced her.

she is routinely flounced by islamic scholars for the inconsitencies and outright lies in her supposed scholarship-

she rode the crest of islamophobia to attain her small position of power (which was taken from her)
without which- she seems to be floundering as we speak.
she would be a sad character if she wasnt so filled with venom.

Eboo Patel says: "I mean, think of how often Ayaan Hirsi Ali gets to spew her Islamophobic poison in those pages."

This is not a rational or reasonable comment. I think the highly emotive terms used to describe the calm and intelligent Ayaan Hirsi Ali's views suggests that he finds them very threatening, especially her condemnation of Muslim cultures' suppression of women. The evidence is clear for all to see that she is accurate in her descriptions of Islam's behaviour.

Whether Obama is a Muslim depends on your point of view. I believe that Obama is a practicing Christian. He is not lying about that in anyway. But that is from my non-Muslim viewpoint. From a Muslim POV he is an apostate Muslim as he was born to a Muslim father and even attended religious services. Unfortunately, it is forbidden by Islam to convert from Islam. As an apostate it is required by all main stream schools of Islam that all Muslims try to kill him. Could be a problem. One you can't hide with your transparent white wash of this barbaric religion. As long as so called moderate Muslims keep hiding the evil that is the core of this 7th century fascist ideology, nothing will be done to bring Islam into the modern era.

The "Obama as Apostate" article was a PARODY folks.

Has everyone become too literal and obtuse to recognize the author's tongue-in-cheek literary parody?

We are seeing the results of the dumbing down of America.

Sad...sad...sad!

May 14, 2008
Letters
Frank Talk About Obama and Islam

To the Editor:

Re “President Apostate?,” by Edward N. Luttwak (Op-Ed, May 12):

Middle Easterners are fascinated by American politics. The prospect that Barack Obama could be elected president inspires awe, not charges of apostasy, as Mr. Luttwak claims.

I have spent about half of the last two years in the Middle East (Bahrain, Egypt, Israel, Kuwait, Lebanon) conducting book research. I have been struck by the profound disappointment that United States policy typically evokes among old and young, including ultra-pious and lax Muslims. These people do not see Mr. Obama as a lapsed Muslim but as a potentially empathetic American leader who grew to maturity as a Christian.

Moreover, most Muslim scholars apply the epithet “apostate” to adult conversion from Islam to another faith.

Augustus Richard Norton
Boston, May 12, 2008

The writer is a professor of anthropology and international relations at Boston University.

•

To the Editor:

Like the Jewish legal tradition, Islamic law is a conversation represented in dynamic and diverse schools of thought. Edward N. Luttwak speaks of an essentialized Islamic law that does not exist.

Nevertheless, there is no dispute among Muslims that Islam is not an ethnic affiliation, nor is it passed through the gene pool. A Muslim parent is morally responsible for raising his or her child within Islam; children, for their part, have no legal culpability. There is no legal obligation by a child to affiliate with the Muslim community.

Islam does not consider Barack Obama ever to have been part of the Muslim community. Apostasy has no relevance here.

Ingrid Mattson
Hartford, May 12, 2008

The writer is president of the Islamic Society of North America, the largest umbrella Muslim group in the country.

•

To the Editor:

As an American Muslim, I found Edward N. Luttwak’s assertion that Senator Barack Obama would be viewed as an “apostate” by the Muslim world because he doesn’t follow the religion of Islam of his nonpracticing Kenyan father as simply absurd.

Yes, some Muslims out of millions may view Mr. Obama as an apostate just as some Christians view him erroneously as a Muslim, but the fact remains that no candidate has a more colorful background, more dynamic life story and more mixed-race blood flowing in his veins than Mr. Obama.

And with an inclination to talk to his foes, Mr. Obama’s excitement in the Muslim world lies less on his vaguely having a Muslim grandfather than on the simple fact that he’s lived in the Muslim world and is not another warmongering Bush Republican.

Zainab Bello
Woodbridge, N.J., May 12, 2008

•

To the Editor:

People in Muslim countries are aware that Senator Barack Obama is not a Muslim, and yet he enjoys wide support in those countries. That support has nothing to do with Mr. Obama’s being a full, half or non-Muslim; it is rooted in the fact that he promises to change the kind of policies that have led to such a negative view of America by people in other countries, both Muslims and members of other faith communities.

Zaid Shakir
Berkeley, Calif., May 12, 2008

The writer is a professor of Arabic and Islamic studies at the Zaytuna Institute.

•

To the Editor:

Edward N. Luttwak misses the point when he says that the people’s “well-meaning” hope placed on Barack Obama that he can improve our relations with the Muslim world is a false one.

It’s not that Muslims will embrace him as one of their own and then be disappointed and even irate to find that he long ago became a Christian. It’s that to the moderate Muslim world, Senator Obama’s worldview that United States power abroad should be based on honesty, humility and force only when necessary is much more appealing than the reverse strategy, practiced in this country over the last eight years.

It’s even appealing to some of us non-Muslims right here in the States.

Daniel Frederick Levin
Brooklyn, May 12, 2008

•

To the Editor:

Yes, the election of Senator Barack Obama would be “welcomed by the Muslim world” — indeed in nearly all of the world — as signaling America’s rejection of President Bush’s misguided and incompetent foreign policy.

Moreover, Muslims and non-Muslims around the world are captivated by the story of a man of color running, so far successfully, for the presidency. In their eyes, an Obama victory in November would demonstrate that America is truly a land of opportunity for all.

A surge of good will would likely result, though I doubt that this possibility will sway many voters.

Kenneth M. Cuno
Urbana, Ill., May 12, 2008

The writer teaches Middle Eastern history at the University of Illinois.

•

To the Editor:

With reference to Barack Obama, it would be wiser to allow the global Muslim community to arrive at its own consensus as to his status, rather than follow the dire prediction of an outsider interpreting Islamic law. Mr. Obama might even serve as an inspiration for modernizers and liberals fighting their own internal battle of legal interpretations.

Stanley E. Brush
Lumberton, N.J., May 12, 2008

Youngj1,

Sorry I posted as you yesterday. I meant to address the post to you. The question still stands however. If I were to choose that I don't want any African American friends in a city where the opportunity to meet and become friends with African Americans would I not be a bigot? As is usually the case when I bring up a difficult question people flake and don't answer. It is okay your silence speaks volumes about the fragility of ours and Mr. Patel's logic that you are better than evangelicals. Well a lot of people think they are better than other people and it doesn't seem to have gotton our world very far.

Thomas Baum:
Yes the jews will be allowed to Mecca-as soon as the racist aparteid theocracy,isreal, allows the six million Palestinian refugees which the jews ethnically celanesed from their homeland Palestine in 1947/8 to return to that homeland.

I also object to the editorial in question, and I agree that Obama is not in danger of being executed for apostasy.
However, I share some of Obama's life history, having been raised by a Christian mother but being the daughter of a Muslim father. These days, I am Muslim myself, but I certainly was not brought up as a Muslim and didn't regard myself as such for many years.
And I think it is oversimplifying to say that Muslim would not generally regard Obama as Muslim just because he had a Muslim father. Most Muslims always regarded me as Muslim, simply on the basis of having had a Muslim father, even though we lived in different countries and he had not raised me as Muslim. No one ever suggested that I was in any danger of being executed for apostasy - indeed the word apostasy was never mentioned. But Muslims were always telling me that I was a Muslim, whether I believed myself to be so or not. And at the time, I did not.
Obama is older than I was, and a male, and very actively Chritian, so most Muslims probably don't regard him as Muslim these days - but I think a great many of them would say that he had been at some point, whether or not he practiced the religion.
The idea that you are simply "born" Muslim is not my own understanding of Islam, nor that of some other Muslims. But it is a very common belief among Muslims and I don't think we should deny that, even as we truthfully say that Obama is not labelled for execution. There is also a strong body of opinion among Muslims to say that apostasy is not punishable by death, but that is another issue.

Obama, Mrs. Clinton and McCain need to be religiously "defemed" now to keep the USA secular and unbiased.

To wit: The fems (flaws, errors, muck and stench) of Christianity,

Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/ simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics. earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

For added "pizzazz", Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

The muck and stench of Catholicism you ask?

Pedophiliac priests, atonement theology and original sin!!!!

Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

The muck and stench of non-Catholic Christian churches you ask?

Adulterous preachers, "propheteering/ profiteering" evangelicals and atonement theology.

Well, thanks for at least reading my post. What I was calling attention to was the condescending way in which Mr. Patel and many other Post writers consider evangelicals.

I by the way don´t consider myself an evangelical, but use that term as a point of reference knowing that is how many people would classify me.

Now to your point. Of course it would be silly to imagine that each individual would have friends that represent each protestan/evangelical demonination or subgroup as you stated with your example of Quakers. However, Mr. Patel works in DC a very large metropolitan area and do you think he has just never run across someone who is protestant/evangelical?

Let´s say for example I live in DC a city with a large number of African Americans and that I simply choose not to make any of them of friends as you seem to indicate about Mr. Patel in regards to evangelicals. What would you as an African American assume about me?

Does spew poison in "AHA gets to spew her Islamophobic poison" come from Psalm 140:
hot Viper's poison is under their lips?

jc I don't recall this piece being about evangelicals. Further you stated:

"Mr. Patel is just that none of your American Evangelical friends support Obama (silly overgeneralization on your part!) Or is it that you simply have no friends who are evangelical (that would be a form of bigotry)."

What form of bigotry is expressed by not having evangelical friends? I'm an African American man who claims no religious doctrine and there are some folks (lets say Quakers) that I can't count among my friends only because I don't come into contact with many. Does that make me bigotted against Quakers because I haven't sought them out as friends?

I'm often amused at the level of hubris expressed under the guise of religious communication. As an evangelical surely you know that judging others is frowned upon yet you clearly are judging that the author is bigotted against evangelicals from a simple statement.

Please try to exhibit that part of you that dwells in the body of Christ and approach those you disagree with in a fair and open manner and I'm sure you'll be surprised at what you may come to know.

Very good article, true, and insightful. We need balanced viewpoints like these. God bless the Red, White and Blue (with faith), God bless America (with guidance). All true Christians in support of the best candidate, and it might well be Barack Obama, God knows best.

Very good article, true, and insightful. We need balanced viewpoints like these. God bless the Red, White and Blue (with faith), God bless America (with guidance). All true Christians in support of the best candidate, and it might well be Barack Obama, God knows best.

Any Moslem, including Eboo, is doing a great disservice to Islam and to humanity by not speaking out against daily mass murders of innocents by Muslims, intolerance of Muslim nations....

Asim says:
"Mecca is the most color-blind spot on the face of the earth."
Maybe , even though many African and Asian Muslims complained of discrimination in Mecca.Furthermore Mecca is the most intolerant place for non-Muslims in the whole world as evidenced by the fact that there is not a single church, synagogue or temple in it, or any other town in all of Saudi Arabia; the Muslim’s “Holy Land”.

here's another tidbit--Obama has lineage in the Mormon Church/Latter Day Saints on his mom's side...

This story about beheading an apostate is an embellished account of a common occurrence in Muslim societies. The following story from Egypt, the most liberal among the Muslim states, will illustrate my point.
A mother of 5 children aged eleven to one was prosecuted and incarcerated recently in Egypt because she did not change her "Christian" affiliation to a "Muslim" on her identity card, after her father , a 65 years old man, converted from Christianity to Islam in order to marry a second wife. The judge ruled that when the father converts his whole prodigy automatically converts , regardless of age or marital status. Proceeding from this mentality is it farfetched for some Muslim cleric(judge) to issue a fatwa(edict) that Obama is an apostate?

What people see in Obama is a man who think the whole world can be better, and live in peace, and feed the hungry. And accept people human and civil rights. He serves an unseen intelligence call him or her what you may.

ASIM, SAN ANTONIO

Aren't there Jews, Muslims, Christians and others in Israel?

Are there Jews, Muslims, Christians and others in Mecca?

By the way, the Jews are not a race, they are a people.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Ted Baines, U have got the wrong address:Apartheid is an intitutionalized practice only in israel,the racist jewish theocracy,where only one race is regins supreme- the jews;
Mecca is the most color-blind spot on the face of the earth where millions of people of all races gather to worship the one and only God,the God of Adam,Noah,Abraham,Moses, Jesus and Muhammad.

It's a welcome relief to hear some honest analysis on the Obama/Muslim issue. I've been disappointed in the coverage of this nomination by both the Washington Post and the NY Times. Both papers have perpetuated the rumors and innuendos put forth by the Clinton machine.
The mainstream media, thank God, has become less relevant with citizens who "know better".

He's not the one holding hands with the Ibn Sauds.

Americans may not care.

but I would like to know if Eboo cares or if he is appalled at the Islamic apartheid practiced in Mecca and Medina.

"2. If Obama becomes president will he be allowed to enter Mecca on sightseeing trip or to pray to Jesus or to help build a Church? Note I said Mecca which is a big city,"

Do you think any American even *cares?*

Eboo, 2 ?s.

1. Had Obama been a former Muslim, then would Islam have required he be put to death?

2. If Obama becomes president will he be allowed to enter Mecca on sightseeing trip or to pray to Jesus or to help build a Church? Note I said Mecca which is a big city,. I did not say inside the kabbah.

My last post was erased perhaps providentially because it was a little harsh. However, let me more briefly draw everyone's attention to Mr. Patel's attitude in ref. to the second to the last paragraph.

Mr. Patel is just that none of your American Evangelical friends support Obama (silly overgeneralization on your part!) Or is it that you simply have no friends who are evangelical (that would be a form of bigotry).

I don't expect Mr. Patel to respond as neither he nor Mr. Berlinerbau give any credence to people who call them on their superiority complex that leads them to believe all American Evangelicals are rabid backwoods highschool dropouts. But this Mr. Patel is exactly the attitude and image that the Obama campaign must overcome if they expect to win in November. My advice to Mr. Patel, Obama supporters and Obama himself is that they need to start thinking what they are going to do convince people like me that they don't see American Evangelicals as a group to be ignored but as a group to given equal credance and validity.

Surprise me Mr. Patel with a response and you have won yourself a reader. Or simply disregard and prove your own prejudices by your actions or non-action to be exact.

Just to let everyone know I am not any more skeptical of Obama than the other two candidates. They all speak of their faith when convenient and then put it back on the shelf when it is called into question. My challenge was really for Mr. Patel himself.

At least half of those killed in India by the bombs were Muslim. The security guard incharge of the small Hindu low-caste temple was also killed. He was a Muslim, and his name was Constable ShahNawaz, as reported by the BBC.

All those killed in Iraq and Afghanistan were also Muslims.

Who is really the perpetrator of these terrorist acts is not so clear.

EBOO = MUSLIM
OBAMA = QUASI-MUSLIM
=> EBOO LIKES OBAMA

MUSLIM HATES WOMAN
CLINTON = WOMAN
=> EBOO HATES CLINTON
=> OBAMA HATES CLINTON
==> EBOO LIKES OBAMA MORE

PS: OBAMA WRONGLY BENEFITED FROM WHITE-GUILT LIKE NO OTHER

Paganplace:

I provided ample support for my claim that Obama is an ardent supporter of White. Although he has distanced himself from SOME of White's comments recently, he has a clearly demonstrated and long-standing relationship with the man, his church, and his theological viewpoints. To add to that, he has reaffirmed his relationship with White in his refusal to denounce White unilaterally.

What evidence can you offer to support the opposing viewpoint? I think that if you really look into the situation, you will have to accept that White is very important to Obama and has been over the course of the past two decades. No one forced Obama to sit in that pew week after week. No one forced him to make large and consistent donations to White. No one forced him to choose White to preside over the most imortant landmarks in 0bama's family life. No one forced Obama to glorify White in The Audacity of Hope. I think it says something positive about Obama that he has not discarded his spiritual leader in the face of such widespread criticism - but it reveals something dangerous within Obama as well.

What is the basis for your claim that Obama is not an ardent follower of White?

And, maybe just as importantly, why does it not concern you that Obama has been so closely intertwined with Black Liberation Theology, a doctrine which subjugates Christianity to racism in an attempt to force social change?

"American Muslims desperate to find positive image...".

Yes, 80 blown up in India today.

A child bomber blows up 23 at a funeral in Iraq.

15 blown up by a suicide bomber in Afghan.

Tell American newspapers to not publish these reports on their front pages.

Suppose that's.... a start, 'White Baptist?'

But, I suppose if you say that, we share the value of honesty?

Further, that, 'You can't con an honest man?'

I still have people in my own church asking if Obama is a "real christian." My response tends to be:

"He's given just as much proof to being a christian as you have."

I usually don't get the question again...for at least a few days.

*sigh*

"No matter what Dave says, Obama's attachment to Black Liberation Theology is going to be problematic for him. Of course Obama is an ardent follower of Reverend White"

No, he is *not, either.*

If you don't want to believe that, listen to the man.

Compare what he says against Wright (And in fact what Wright says against *him* with , oh, I dunno, McCain going back on his supposed stand against torture in order to appeal to Rev. *Hagee.*

That's not just a *smear,* that's *McCain actually changing his positions to court Fundies, even after being tortured himself and claiming it was never OK or even useful.

If torture *works,* then there's *no way* McCain should be suitable for office.

Cause Commies did it to *him.* If it worked, he should recuse himself.

This Obama-is-a-Muslim thing is bizarre. It does not seem to be rooted in fact at all, but rather has been created as a challenge to Obama's suitability for the oval office. What seems so silly about it is that there is a REAL problem with Obama's religious attachments. Why make something up?

No matter what Dave says, Obama's attachment to Black Liberation Theology is going to be problematic for him. Of course Obama is an ardent follower of Reverend White. White married Obama and his wife, and he baptized both Obama's children. Obama was a member of his congregation for over twenty years, and he referred to Wright in his book as his moral and spiritual advisor. Additionally, Obama has donated tens of thousands of dollars in support of White, Black Liberation Theology, and White's Church. While it might be convenient for Obama supporters to deny that attachment, Obama himself has refused to do so. Like it or not, this issue has legs.

But the Muslim thing??? Stupid.

Btw, when I say 'not comfortable,' I do mean that in the most abstract sense: one in which I am not comfortable with strident 'Christians' in office, either, ...not that I don't vote for individual Christians all the time (Is there really any other choice, ever?) or that I think being Muslim disqualifies one, either.

For instance, I think Senator Obama's *multicultural* experiences, and the attitudes he's taken from them, are a *huge asset* that particularly in present times, we'd be fools to pass up, here in America.

Not to mention that when he says he supports our diversity, and the rights of *all* religions, he doesn't qualify it in the usual coded 'I just mean Christians and Jews and some Muslims' way that is standard practice for a lot of Christian candidates and pundits.

You notice things like, when some talk about the positive aspects of religion, they always say something like, "However you believe in God," and when they accept difficulties in religions, they take pains to include others they usually ignore.

Which is why I'm not, in the broad sense, comfortable, per se, with anyone who thinks they have the 'One True Way' making executive decisions in my name.

Senator Obama beats neither flags nor Bibles nor crosses, ...he simply takes his faith through his life in a way that respects, and even potentially *understands* the ways of others.

He's got a 'citizen of the world' aspect to him, as well as a knowing of the American Dream ...for all, that I think America really needs.

Some try to use the false implication he's a Muslim, (or some kind of black radical) as something that *casts suspicion* on him in some vague and scary way, ...but the actual man, well.

It's clear to see that he's developed strong principles from them that few, I think, could fault. The very fact he's done this 'in spite' of (I'd say, 'through, or ' because of')
exposure to other ways, makes him just the candidate America needs in these times.

'Suspecting' he's Muslim both is meant to use fearmongering to dis-enlighten our politics, but also backhandedly teach things like 'Muslims can't be trusted.'

One bit of a piece of obviousness about Hillary's primary results in West Virginia: a particular lot of people there believe the Swiftboating, and, well, yes, there's racism involved, too. There's been an awful lot of effort put into convincing people 'Barack Hussein Obama' is either a Muslim or beholden to some scary black Christian pastor, or, apparently both.

The fact that neither is true doesn't seem to bother some folks.

But then again, they think it represents the 'popular will' to vote in Democratic primaries in order to *subvert* the will of the people in order to try and have the candidate people *want* *not* make it to the general election.

It's shameful, but the fact is, calling him a Muslim is clearly a massive effort at *deception* by those who claim to be acting in the name of 'Truth.'

Now, I wouldn't be particularly comfortable with a Muslim in office, any more than I am with the obligatory Christian piety we seem so inured to, but the fact is, this particular Swiftboating is both a flagrant lie about Obama, and by implication, hatemongering against Muslim Americans.

The same people who claim that he was and is a Muslim are the same people who say that he is still an ardent follower of Rev. Wright. The height of idiocy and ignorance. What next? These people will say that the Pope and the Ayatollah have the same beliefs.