Umm, Concerned?

"It is all about Reality and what happens when religions like Hinduism cannot accept it"

You were speaking to a Hindu who doesn't approve of the modern caste system just yesterday, ...you were the one who couldn't accept his explanation that Hinduism doesn't *preach* that, based on birth as you accused. Frankly, many of the *class*-based problems actually can in large measure be seen as a result of adapting to outside pressures from Muslim conquerors and the British... a culture under stress, essentially, not the teachings of the religion itself, per se.

Who cleans up *your* sewers? The notion of castes is offensive to a lot of Western minds, but we have just the same, here, and, frankly, till quite recently, even in America, it looked an awful lot like Apartheid.

And now it's 'illegal immigrants' and 'gays' that are accorded lower status. Just with different glossings-over of it.

"e.g. lower caste members picking up the waste products of worshipped/venerated/revered cows and the waste products of the higher castes."

Actually, in most Hindu houses, it's on the women of the house, not the Dalits, to keep things clean, is my understanding.

As for who gets the 'crap jobs,' everyone's got some excuse or other. Then again, as Jai has mentioned, India's had Dalits in high office, not to mention women, while 'Christian America' still isn't sure it's 'ready for a black or woman president.' Go figure.

"Pagan and Christian cults that do not believe in medical intervention are in the same realm of non-Reality."

Name one of the former.

See, problem with *your* reality, Concerned, is, apparently 'facts' don't matter, you just think that whatever *you* want to think is 'Reality,' well, mostly on the basis it's *you.*

There's complex issues about India. It doesn't mean you understand Hinduism. Or Paganism, for that matter.

Paganplace,

It is all about Reality and what happens when religions like Hinduism cannot accept it e.g. lower caste members picking up the waste products of worshipped/venerated/revered cows and the waste products of the higher castes.

Pagan and Christian cults that do not believe in medical intervention are in the same realm of non-Reality.

"Since Paganism has ,according to you, many of the same traits/practices of Hinduism, we await your conversion."

Gods know how *that's* supposed to follow, Concerned: that's pretty much nonsense. Hinduism, for one thing doesn't have this big agenda to go out *seeking* converts. Much like for Pagans, that's not the *point,* anyway, at least to reckonings I've heard (Hinduism is actually a pretty broad category, anyway, with manifold and more-approachable manifestations of 'God' ... why change practice to that of someone else's particular culture when I've had such powerful experience of reviving what's left of our own? So you can then insult me over cows and India's caste system?

(And after all that trouble my own Gods went to with the engraved invitations and all. :) )

Seems to me that you want to demand every religion but your own tear itself down and reform without ancient cultural baggage that doesn't suit modern ideas. Or at least the things that bother you. You seem to be just fine with plenty of things *Christians* still feel is OK, (when *they* do it,) after all.

What the Hel do you think is going on in European traditions right now? Someone did their level best to destroy and appropriate our cultural baggage as well as our treasures, ...we're rebuilding out of what's left and what we can reclaim: you just like to think you're excoriating people for the worst you feel entitled to see in them.

Why would I try 'converting' on the basis of having similar views of 'God' right *here?* :)

Silly. :)

Paganplace,

Until the upper castes of India clean up their own wastes and the waste of the worshiped/revered/venerated coal mind, Hinduism will not find many converts.

Since Paganism has ,according to you, many of the same traits/practices of Hinduism, we await your conversion.

"Paganplace,

Picking up cow dung has a place in paganism??"

Sometimes? My people call it "farming."

No, Pagans don't let cattle run free in urban environments, but neither do we freak out about it when someone else does. Certainly we get the same strange accusations and defamations about 'idolatry' and 'animal worship,' though, even if in our case, a similar, but perhaps-more-generalized reverence for animals doesn't necessarily mean not-eating them. Practices vary, here, but a pretty common reverence is behind them.

In general, I won't kill needlessly or show cruelty to animals: not even a moth or other harmless insect. I'm not a vegetarian, but I won't eat what I won't kill... and respect the spirits of what I do eat. (Thanksgiving 'Grace' involves thanking the *turkey,* for instance. :) ) Certain particular animals represent the Gods in various particular ways, to us, too, and we honor this, in terms not at all unlike what Jai described. And you ignored.

Harping on Hinduism cause *India* has a caste system, doesn't mean Hinduism *preaches* that, as you keep insisting, in the forms that India is actually struggling to modernize, and has.

You're the one who has a 'cow issue,' (if not a dung one,) not Hindu people.

Jai,

Again who picks up the venerated cow dung?? Cleans the sewers? Picks up the garbage in India??

And "dirty" Bill Clinton has nothing to do with the caste and cow issues of Hinduism.

Paganplace,

Picking up cow dung has a place in paganism??

You know, CCNL, if your intention there was to prove you're not a bot, it was singularly unconvincing. :)

Anyway, Jai, don't worry too much about CCNL, ...sometimes he makes a good rhetorical 'opponent' to address assumptions others won't voice, but as for anything getting through to him, don't hold your breath. He just seems to get off on repeating his insults, however that represents being 'liberated.' :)

Hindu ways seem to be among the hardest of all for Westerners to 'get' ...but modern Pagans actually kind of get many of the same kinds of accusations.

Hindus like White Christians practice casteism, an evil. Hindus also elect lower castes to high power, some thing that White Christians have yet to and will not do, if PA is precursor.

Hinduism does not preach casteism. That is my point.

I have read the Bible and there is ample justification in it for oppressing others.

There is no justification in the Hindu scriptures for casteism based on birth. The scriptures do recognize that our mental abilities make suited for some occupations but not for others.

Would you leave your 15 year old daughter to be "baby-sat" by Bill Clinton?

Pseudo,

Hmmm, a robot am I??

And the robot says: "As with Arminius, what bothers you now? Not agreeing with what many NT exegetes have concluded about the historic Jesus? What is being taught is some large Catholic university theology classes? The "fems" of Islam and/or Christianity? Limbo? Original sin? Profits instead of prophecies? Pretty wingie, talking, flying, fictional thingies? The demons of the demented? Being Born, Bred, and Brainwashed in some form of religion?

JAI KHOSLA:

"CCNL

Your knowledge of Hinduism comes from Google and other unreliable sources."

CCNL is probably a chatbot shell script run by some merry prankster graduate students in some computer science department to memorialize the great Joseph Weizenbaum's Eliza joke. It is programed to cut an paste things to simulate a conversation with an intelligent entity. Of course, it does not understand what it cuts and pastes, but it is a very good troll.

Trouble your self no further with its automatic responses.

Perhaps the graduate students will get a master's or a doctorate doing this "artificial troll" research project.

Some obvious typos etc corrected (Upper case)) in my last post:

-- “pictures made by himsElf or given to..."

--Videos are OFTEN just snippets,....

-- A documentary about Islam and Muslims may not BE totally free of some of these problems, and may not BE embraced or accepted by .... not helpful to our understandiNg of a different religion and culture. ....

Jai,

And who cleans up all the venerated cow dung? Or the sewers? Or the garbage? Even "vegies" create waste!!!!

Besides revering animals is not ignorance. It is a sign and level of civilization that westerners have not attained yet.

Become a vegetarian. You will think more clearly. Right now all the gunk from the beef you eat has clogged the blood vessels in your brain. That is why you give us an uninterrupted supply of stupid and ill thought out posts.

CCNL

Lower caste Hindus have become Presidents, prime ministers, Chief ministers, politicians, industrialists , professors and more. Cows have not achieved the similar positions in India. Lower caste Hindus have been shown no more disrespect than what white Christians have shown blacks and native Americans.

You need to study our scriptures before talking about Hinduism.

*eyerolling*

CCNL:

"Paganplace,

"Wiccan that you are but Paganism conjure ups with good reason beliefs in voodoo, cannibalism, idol worship, heathens, ghosts, goblins and venerating May poles."

The reason is that *you* choose to 'conjure' up these beliefs with your insistence on 'voodooing hoodoo,' which I've mentioned in the past are two separate traditions, both unrelated to Paganism.

No cannibalism, though, ...some call our statuary 'idol worship' while excusing their own statuary, ...some have called us and our ancestors 'heathens,' and Nordic Pagans often refer to themselves as Heathens, having their specific thing they're doing,

...and ghosts actually aren't a huge fixture in Pagan belief: I can't think of a culture *anywhere, ever* that didn't report them, but such apparitions, apart from academic discussion or occasional prods from, say, the ancestors, just aren't that big a world-shaking deal to us, probably not so much as they are to the culture around us:

...one thing you've gotta give us credit for, is our worldview isn't designed such it goes into a tailspin the moment something 'unexplained' happens. :) Ghostly apparitions just aren't that big a preoccupation or concern with most Pagans: we have no particular theological or ideological reason to consider such things inherently fearful or threatening: but we tend to mostly see spirit as within and connected to everything: not as disembodied souls that should either be in Heaven, Hell, or relegated safely to the minds of people we call 'superstitious.' :)

I've actually been staying next to a big old graveyard with an occasional nod of respect to the ancestors, and the concept of 'ghosts' didn't even come to mind till you mentioned it. :)

We do dance Maypoles, though, in general. Was fun this year, thanks. :)

Anyway. The point is, just because you and others like to try and *make* or even 'prove' certain associations about other people's beliefs, doesn't mean you understand them. Especially since you've had plenty of opportunity here to learn better and simply refuse to.

What LippmanN (please note: double ‘n’ !) was doing in the line you quoted was expanding on an assumption: what Man would do if he were to go by “pictures made by himslf or given to him (I think he used ‘Atlas’ doesn’t mean flat world, as one of the examples if I recall right) – and, had no “direct and certain knowledge.”

Yes, the images we see on TV or in the media stay with us long (‘A picture is worth a thousand words’). Most movies are fictional. Some documentaries do not even give a complete or unbiased picture, either. Videos are just snippets, part of the reality without much or right context.

A documentary about Islam and Muslims may not totally free of some of these problems, and may not embraced or accepted by every Muslim as a full, complete picture or an accurate one. Such efforts spread misconception and are not helpful to our understandig of a different religion and culture. Thank heavens, such an ‘offering’ is not the only source of our knowledge, ‘direct’ or ‘certain’.

What Lippmann said after the line you quoted is, I think, a pointed qualifier (paraphrasing here; sorry):
It doesn't tell us what ultimately they'll accomplish -- just their current attempts, interests /feelings /hopes.

Jai,

And when more respect is shown to a dumb animal than to fellow lower caste Hindus, then something is very, very wrong with Hinduism even with venerating and/or worshiping cows. Fortunately I was not bred, born and brainwashed in such ignorance.

Paganplace,

Wiccan that you are but Paganism conjure ups with good reason beliefs in voodoo, cannibalism, idol worship, heathens, ghosts, goblins and venerating May poles.

Mr. Patel must be vying for the Jeremiah Wright Award for Narcissist Ego in Search of a Cause, propelled by a lot of sound and fury signifying nothing. Mr. Patel is obviously hungering to create around himself the same cult of personality that led Rev. Wright to such heights before his crash and burn. What a lot of self-serving baloney. I mean, even George Will hasn't tried to use his columns to sell his latest book.

The idea that we can overcome deep divisions with a lot of touchy-feely made-for-photo-op media "events" starring the likes of Eboo Patel and Queen Noor is ludirous on its face. What the Islamic establishment needs to do is launch a reformation and reform movement within Muslim countries themselves. When they've had a measure of success, come talk. Meanwhile, Eboo, take your vain attempt to gloss over the yawning failures of Islam by putting a guilt trip on we Christian democratic Westerners and shove it where the sun don't shine.

Anonymous - did you pick up Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor's interview on BBC Radio 4's "Today" programme on which he said (and I quote)

"Danger because, if you go just by reason, I think, without faith, without belief in God, you can imagine, for instance in the last century, some of the faith(less), or supposedly faithless societies - people, whether it's like Hitler or Stalin, bringing up - having a country in which, if you like, a God free zone, a dictatorship ruled by reason, and where does it lead? To terror and oppression"

Are these the words of a man who wants to engage in discourse with those who don't believe?

CCNL

Your knowledge of Hinduism comes from Google and other unreliable sources.

I was born into a family that has been Hindu for thousands of years. My maternal grandfather was a Hindu priest and mother was a devout Hindu and ran a household where even onion and garlic were not eaten, leave alone beef. I grew up breathing and living Hinduism. And we never worshipped the cow.

Revering the cow is the same as Christians revering the Cross. The Cross to Christians is a symbol and not God.

I suggest you take the next 10 years and read and understand the Vedas, the Gita and the Upanishads. Also study the Mahabharat and the Ramayan. You will get a bettr understanding of the Sanata Dharma.

Then, if some wisdom has entered your cerebral regions, return to this board. Right now your posts are meaningless and reflect little analysis on your part.

So says the King of 'Respect.'

You *don't get to define other peoples' beliefs, CCNL.* Especially when you spend so much effort defending your own ignorance about things people take the trouble to explain to you.

Just the things you've said about me, all Pagans, and the columnist himself pretty much disqualify you from talking about *respect.* Never mind comparing it.

India has a lot of social issues regarding the caste system. This doesn't mean you're right about 'cow worship.'

Google Hindu "cow worship" . Many references there to.

Conclusion: Hindu "cow worship" is not like deity worship but is close. And when more respect is shown to a dumb animal than to fellow lower caste Hindus, then something is very, very wrong with Hinduism.

"1)Christian books have scary stuff too but for 1 nut that takes them literally, there are 10 clever people who smartly explain them as bound by time-place and context."

Then why the difficulty believing the same of, oh, I dunno, Muslims?

Still, my point that what I conclude by human contact and communication, that: 'people are not their books' is unchanged by such things.

There's no bravery or honor, or safety, for that matter, in fearmongering or willful ignorance, based on the fact someone *else's* book has scary things in it, even if you excuse yourself by the same standards by which you justify flipping out about others.

Nice posts, btw, Jai. These guys, well, it goes around in circles like this.

Does It Matter

Our monistic prayer," Lead us from darkness to light, from mortality to immortality" is a prayer to Brahman and therefore worship. True in Vedanta we do not worship in the manner of Bhakti type Hindus but it is a worship of another kind.

What our image of God lacks is the fear and guilt that suffuses Christianity and Islam.

Ummm... just a reminder. I've always thought that voting Republican was a lot like dating Norma Desmond in "Sunset Boulevard".
G.W. may look kinda cute at first... and, well, he does have a certain charm, I suppose. That said...
Something REALLY stinks in here.
Your monkey, George?
Hey, Dick, that monacle becomes you...

Software gods have decided to remove my signature from posts...
DOES IT MATTER

sorry, forgot to sign my post below....

Paganplace:
"If I thought people *were* their books, I sure wouldn't be out here talking about it. I live among people whose *books* have passages that say I should be killed brutally and with impunity on a few counts as it is.

They're called Christians"

Paganplace you made the same point previously and I answered you in a reply to that post. I will do it again
(1)Christian books have scary stuff too but for 1 nut that takes them literally, there are 10 clever people who smartly explain them as bound by time-place and context. There are 1000 brave Christian people who say that those were probably just tall tales and need not be paid attention to. There are 10000 wise Christian people who just admit that those are complete and utter nonsense.
so the ratio of nuts to non nuts = 1:11000
(2)Jew Books have scary stuff too but
for 1 nutty Jew, there are 1000 pork eating, Shiksa marrying Jews, 5000 doctor jews and 20 Nobel prize winning Jews
So a ratio of nuts:non-nuts 1:6020
(3)Some Hindu books have nutty stuff too
But for each Nutty Hindu, you have 10000 confused Hindus and 100 brave Hindus who burn that book publically
So nut to non-nut ratio 1:10100
(4) Now for Ebrahim's people...
About 99% of them say their book is timeless! Granted, they have 3 non-nuts, Arshad Manji, Sulman Rushdi and Hirsi Ali
So the ratio of nuts to non nuts
1Billion:3

Get it?
Let them turn inward and reform themselves. Let them practice Ijtehad and boldly proclaim “Yes, we have things in our theology that are anachronistic too” , let them admit that rules made for 6th century Arabia do not apply now! Once they do that, we will talk!

Umm, yeah, Scotch. That's likely a typo. You were confused by it somehow?

Movies "Extemists" Will Hate?

ummm... typo?

Hey, Doesitmatter:

If I thought people *were* their books, I sure wouldn't be out here talking about it. I live among people whose *books* have passages that say I should be killed brutally and with impunity on a few counts as it is.

They're called Christians.

People are not their books. Particularly not the way *you* read em.

PAGANPLACE-"If it's bravery you're concerned with, there's certainly none to be found in fear-hate-and-war-mongering, or in ignorance or defamation"
Hey CCNL, could you please post the examples of
(1)fear mongering
(2)hate mongering
(3)war mongering
(4)ignorance
(5)defamation

from some of our "beloved' scriptures? especially from the ones that PAGANPLACE wants a dialogue with?
Please add some strong coffee flavor... she needs to wake up!

Thanks Bro (or sis) apprecaite your efforts!

What you've quoted refutes your own insistence on the word 'worship,' CCNL, ....you just refuse to get the point, apparently.

Whether it be Paganism, Christianity, Catholicism, Islam, Buddhism or Hinduism, we all do some form of the "voodooing of the hoodoo".

More on Hindus worshipping the cow:

Basics of Hinduism: Why do Hindus worship the cow?
By himalayanacademy.com

A: The cow represents the giving nature of life to every Hindu. Honoring this gentle animal, who gives more than she takes, we honor all creatures.

Longer answer: Hindus regard all living- creatures as sacred�mammals, fishes, birds and more. We acknowledge this reverence for life in our special affection for the cow. At festivals we decorate and honor her, but we do not worship her in the sense that we worship the Deity. To the Hindu, the cow symbolizes all other creatures. The cow is a symbol of the Earth, the nourisher, the ever-giving, undemanding provider. The cow represents life and the sustenance of life. The cow is so generous, taking nothing but water, grass and grain. It gives and gives and gives of its milk, as does the liberated soul give of his spiritual knowledge. The cow is so vital to life, the virtual sustainer of life, for many humans. The cow is a symbol of grace and abundance. Veneration of the cow instills in Hindus the virtues of gentleness, receptivity and connectedness with nature.

If it's bravery you're concerned with, there's certainly none to be found in fear-hate-and-war-mongering, or in ignorance or defamation, Doesitmatter.

I don't have much regard for 'book religions' as any sort of guarantee of goodness or security, but, well, fights happen. If one were to come, let it not be unnecessary, let it not be based on fear and lies, and let's remember there's no honor or glory in degrading opponents or making enemies of noncombatants.

Thanks to some screwups by people who diverted our attention for their own ends by using such fear-and hatemongering, I'm afraid it's likely the people of Earth are going to face a lot of wars... Over resources we've ill-managed. Some of these will involve Muslim countries... if this is what's going to happen, let's not add dishonor to a (expletives deleted) tragedy.

Or we could do some work and help each other through it instead of talking past each other like this and blaming differences in the brand names of the very religions that the warmongers hope to use against the good people they claim as 'flocks.'

We should all certainly stand against theocracies and 'holy warriors' who'd manipulate us, ...all of us in the world, but, yes, I think it's cowardly indeed to try and promote fear and ignorance.

We don't have time for that.

Paganplace,
I think CCNL does a great favor to the society by mocking religious practices. He (like Hitchens) calls a spade a spade and even calls a heart a spade, which is great! It is better that people start with irreverence and then come to revere the things that they experience “divine” in! Rather than worshiping those by rote & dumb indoctrination. I have a set of personal beliefs. They are most dearly held yet very personal to me. I do not get offended when someone mocks them! If the mocker is making a new point, it only helps me re-examine if I am in a “cuckoo-land”!
The apologists on the other hand try to sugarcoat stuff that is pretty nutty. If it is nutty and harmless, it does not bother me. But when it is responsible for mayhem, it needs to be called out and CCNL does that!

PAGANPLACE
Hello again to my open minded & brave friend from your lili-livered co-poster!

"definitely believe positive media images would help relations all around"

Well truth needs to be told. Images are dangerous! This enterprise all these apologists like Ebrahim embark on is not image building but propoganda, deception & whitewashing the deeds of their dark bratherns!
It is as charming as a Cobra spreading its majestic hood! Majestic but still poisonous!

once again wake up!

Anyway, 'Doesitmatter,' if you're not familiar with CCNL, he just likes to mischaracterize and thereby try and mock other people's religious beliefs... in this case by appealing to the common prejudice that Hindu people 'worship cows,' ...a great irony being that a whole lot of Christians are the ones who don't really get the concept that there *is* a difference between revering something and worshipping it. Gods know how many times Pagans have to say 'We no more worship trees or statues than do Christians worship *crosses.*

It's an arrogance meant to try and portray people of other religions as stupid or something.

My post should read, 'I think I can safely answer *for* Arminius,' btw.

JAI

Hindus revere all living beings but worship only God they call Brahman"

Not to nitpick,
but in the Dharmic tradition, Brahman CAN NOT be worshiped as it is deemed indescribable !
It is the "Ishwra" that is worshiped!

and IMHO you tried to write "Adwaita for Dummies"
when you say "Brahman resides in you" ( aham Brahmosmi). Unfortunately It will be terribly misunderstood without the larger context by most people non familiar with Dharmic tradition!

I would say, CCNL, wikipedia does a pretty good job of describing these concepts.. so if you have time and inclination, you should look it up!

" Concerned The Christian Now Liberated:
"Arminius, Arminius, Arminius, Hmmm, what bothers you now? Not agreeing with what many NT exegetes have concluded about the historic Jesus? "

I think I can safely answer to Arminius that, no, it's probably your continued cut-and-paste spamming of the same old stuff unrelated threads. (Hi, Arminius. LTNS. :))

And just when I thought Mr. Patel had a column that might have been free of this sort of thing.

On the original topic, I definitely believe positive media images would help relations all around, particularly in America. Not that they don't exist, but a lot of Americans just prefer more lurid fare: themes of war and action and crime and all that: certainly fanatics and terrorists make great *villains,* even if the producers don't intend for that to be the whole view of Muslim people, but I think it ends up that way.

Pagans have a similar problem: even the shows and movies that fundamentalist Christians complain 'glorify Wicca' still associate us with demons and evil and various occult horrors: even the show 'Charmed,' which appropriates a lot of Wiccan words and symbols, is still essentially based in a world of angels and demons and Faustian bargains and absolute 'good and evil,' ...whether people think it's cool or not, it's the wrong idea.

There's the problem that the 'right idea' is both less-marketable, and would probably be considered 'too controversial' compared to the potential returns in ratings or box office sales.

In the case of portrayals of Muslims, there's plenty out there, ...but a whole lot of American men consider it emasculating just to have it known they saw a foreign film.

CCNL
I find myself in agreement with you about the stinkyness of organized religion... Your remark about Hinduism is though very casual!
Dharmic tradition in general and Hinduism in particular is nothing but a superset of a whole bunch Eastern philosophies that evolved over time, reformed again and again and were mercilessly polluted ( Manusmriti being a good example)
Kind of like a river.. takes on mountain snowmelt and takes on sewage....
The high priest of Hinduism were politicians foremost.. and used it exactly like the Popes and Caliphs did.. to push their agenda....

The caste system, originally started as a social order that was profession based, arguably suitable for the Vedic time, devolved into this ugly sore on Hinduism, codified by the infamous ManuSmiriti!

The Cow Worship... now it is all in your mind...
Since you drink Cow's milk, she is a mother to you.. or it is just a dumb animal which passes out a large amount of methane? So cow worship is either profoundly noble or completely dumb.. depending upon who you ask!

In philosophy and in structure in Hindu-Dharmic tradition differ the Judeo Christian tradition.
The tradition is very diffuse. The philology of scriptures is much more complex. Hence:
(1) This tradition is more prone to corruption but it also lends itself to reforms a lot more easily.
(2) Largely not evangelical ( small sects like Hare Krishna bring the Evangelism in their tenet)
(3) By it very nature, it is individualistic, hence harder to have one mighty church & one high priest!
(4) The philosophy puts much more emphasis on personal actions (Karma) cause and effect and so on hence feels more libertarian as against the “Salvation Welfare State a la Jesus” liberal!
(5) In my subjective opinion, it is much more complex philosophically, hence much harder to comprehend & not easy to propagate by conversion!
Having wasted all this space in a poor attempt to articulate it…. I agree with you.. Even Hinduism when it becomes an “organized” creed .. it stinks!

CCNL

there is big difference between worship and reverence.

Hindus revere all living beings but worship only God they call Brahman, the All Pervading Spirit, the First Cause.

Hindus believe that the Brahman resides in all living beings.

I revere you, CCNL, and the cow and the monkey and the ant because the Brahman resides in you CCNL and the cow and the monkey and the ant. But it is only the Brahman inside of you CCNL and the cow and the monkey and the ant that I worship.

That is why Hindus , true Hindus, do not kill for food. That would be tantamount to attacking the Brahman.

Hindus practice casteism but Hinduism does not advise casteism.

PS:
1.Brahman is not be confused with the priest class, Brahmin.

2. Hindus misinterpreted a verse in the Rig Veda to oppress the poor, by attributing caste to birth. The Vedas clearly imply it is the mindset and abilities that make one a Brahamin or a Shudra.

3. The correct word for the Dharma we practice is Sanatan Dharma or the Eternal Religion. Implied is that we are continually improving our faith. That is why Hinduism progressed from the earlier polytheism to monotheism to monism.

Jai Khosla,

Hindus worship the cow. Hindus revere the cow. So what is the difference???

And treatment of minorities in the USA is just as abhorrible as the caste system of Hinduism. Both reek of the stench of elitism/"Limbaughism" and should be eliminated from one's mind, heart and actions.

CCNL

We Hindus do not worship the cow. We revere it for the following reason.

The people now known as Hindus did eat beef at one time. They also used cattle to plow their fields and used the manure for fertilizer and fuel. There was a famine at one time and if the people ate the cows, then there would have been no crops.

At a time when less than 1% of the people were literate, the only way to stop them from eating cows was to attach some divine link and make it a sacred animal.

later Hindus became or propounded vegetarianism as they or some of them began to abhor killing, even of animals. In addition the development of monism made the Hindus even more reluctant to kill the cow or any animal for food.

You ought to note that none of the books that we accet as scriptures: Vedas, the Gita and the Upanishads refer to our beliefs as Hinduism. Hindus was a name given to people now living in Pakistan by the Persians: people living near the Indus. The Persians apparently could not pronounce Sindhu the real name of the Indus River.

The scriptures do not propagate the caste system either. Hindus are like any other people. White Americans have always had a caste system: black and white and other color based divisions. While not defending caste, Hindus never massacred the low castes in the manner that whites massacred non-whites.

The on going campaign against Obama by Rush Limbaugh is a manifestation of the caste system in the USA.

CCNL,

Stuff it.

Mainstream religions need to remember to do their job well. People yearn for spirituality. They shouldn't have to find it in something like Scientology.

No need for films or dialogue. All that is needed is a good dose of Reality and Truth about the "fems" ("flaws, errors, muck and stench) of religion.

To wit:

The "fems" of the major religions:

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was either the embellishment of the lives of three different men or a mythical character as was Moses, the "Tablet-Man" who talked to burning bushes and made much magic in Egypt.

Many of the 1.5 million Conservative Jews and many of their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT.

The muck and stench in Judaism you ask?

Belief that that the Jews are god's chosen people and its resulting consequences.
simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics. earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

For added "pizzazz", Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

The muck and stench of Catholicism you ask?

Pedophiliac priests, atonement theology and original sin!!!!

3. Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

The muck and stench of non-Catholic Christian churches you ask?

Adulterous preachers and atonement theology.

4. Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds this muck and stench of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

The muck and stench of Islam you ask?

The Sunni-Shiite blood feud and the warmongering , womanizing, hallucinating founder.

5. Hinduism (from an online Hindu site) - "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centered and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’."
The caste/laborer system and cow worship are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

The muck and stench of Hinduism you ask?

The caste system and cow worship.

6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."
"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life. e.g. Buddha by one legend was supposedly talking when he came out of his mother's womb.

Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations, embellishments, lies, muck, stench and myths surrounding the founders and foundations of said rules of life.

* News
* World news
* Catholicism

Cardinal says Britain must not be a 'God-free zone'

* Riazat Butt, religious affairs correspondent
* The Guardian,
* Friday May 9 2008

This article appeared in the Guardian on Friday May 09 2008 on p4 of the UK news section. It was last updated at 00:41 on May 09 2008.

British public life cannot be a "God-free zone", the head of the Catholic church in England and Wales warned last night.

Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor said he was unhappy about attempts to "eliminate the Christian voice" from the public forum. He urged Catholics to prevent the country from becoming a "world devoid of religious faith" through a deeper engagement with God by praying, studying and performing charitable acts.

Speaking in a lecture at Westminster Cathedral, he said there was "considerable spiritual homelessness", and even if people wanted to believe they felt faith was not an option.

"Many people have a sense of being in a sort of exile from faith-guided experience. This is the effect of the privatisation of religion today: religion comes to be treated as a personal need. You cannot banish religion to the church premises. There are social currents that want to isolate religion from other forms of knowledge and experience in order to marginalise it."

The cardinal said modern culture prevented people from expressing their aspirations, and that their spiritual and religious impulses were not being channelled because there was a "pervasive message" that committing oneself to God was to "take a step back from being independent and mature".

He suggested, however, that Christians were partly to blame for the prevalence of modern atheism, which was a product of a "distorted kind of Christianity".

"What did we do to generate unbelief? We need to examine what we might have done to give people a misleading idea of God. Faith in Britain might be improved by a deeper grasp of the mystery of God on the part of our believers."

He also called for a better dialogue between believers and non-believers based on mutual esteem, rather than a rejection of difference, in order to address the split between the Gospels and culture. He then questioned the grounds on which some prominent atheists attacked faith.

"The interesting question about atheism is, what is the theism being denied? Have you ever met anyone who believes what Richard Dawkins does not believe in? The God that is being rejected by such people is a God I don't believe in either."

The cardinal's lecture was the last in a series on faith and public life in Britain. Other speakers have included Tony Blair, who said religion needed rescuing from extremism and irrelevance, and the Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, who said religion could provide a solid foundation for human rights. Williams takes a more flexible approach than his Catholic counterpart to a multicultural and multi-faith Britain.

Murphy-O'Connor has been outspoken in his attempt to secure the place of Christianity in society. He has attacked the caricature of the Catholic church as "some heartless, insular institution that wants to deny people their freedom", describing it as a distortion to persuade people the church had no constructive role to play.

Last month, in an interview with the Guardian, he hit out at the representatives of an "aggressive secularism" he said was gaining ground in the UK, defended the church's role in the debate over "hybrid" embryos, and argued that Christian leaders should hold a privileged position over the leaders of other faiths when it came to their input into public policy in Britain.

He has also accused the government of being motivated by anti-religious thinking over adoption laws and single faith schools.

Eboo,

Thank you for your article. The Pangea Day is a fresh idea to try and find something to unite all of us. I think that something to unite all of us is what we need more than anything.

Eboo, I see people who love living life on the edge. Pushing the limits of speed to dysfunctional diplomacy are in evidence in my world. These extremists really don't care if they stress out society with their own egocentric needs. Everyone that has tried to push the limits of physical laws have ended up in a ditch one time or another. It's just sort of a charactor flaw to me to learn where the edge is by pushing beyond the edge resulting in catastrophic consequence. And it all goes back to risk assessment in my world. Realistically making risk assessments is a practice by bankers to brokers to everyday people insuring themselves.

I tried to think like some who are considered to be behind the eight ball or losers. People are labeled as traitors or sympathizers for understanding all points of reference. And yet all forms of community building or ADR require listening to both sides of aggrieved parties just like a Judge and/or Jury. Being labeled "the enemy" one time was a revelation to me as to how far ignorance and arrogance will not facilitate a neccessity for willingness to change. And we cannot change one who is unwilling to change.

So, on one side I can see people claiming that a hostile capitalistic takeover of Iraq was produced by people not caring about risking national treasures not belonging to them personally. On the otherside, I see religious fanatics brainwashing people into committing acts of terrorism. Is it an act of treason to see both sides of the equation, I think not.

The rest to me is just alot of smoke-n-mirrors to coverup incompetence. In the model of the higher ideals of the United States of America, upholding the Constitution while protecting the nation is a balancing act. That balance was nearly negligent starting in the year 2001 and got progressively worse through 2004. Situation we face today is that an opposite reaction will occur throwing us off balance again to the far left. We should not be afraid of that either, as eventually gravity will balance our nation mimicking the Universe.

Anyway, that is my story and I am sticking to it.