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Victoria:
The basic quality for whoever wishes to call for an ideology, whether political or religious, is to have an impeccable character. One with demonstrated integrity . Making up sayings and attributing them to this and that could hardly be an attribute of integrity. You know what I am referring to and which you had earlier described as "backbiting".

so you see convert- we are encourage to have the best intentions- and to share the best of what we know-
islam is an easy religion- it is people that try to make it hard-

It is essential that the one who wants to call people to Islam should have some understanding of that to which he is calling them, but he does not have to know the entire religion, because of the report narrated by al-Bukhaari (3461) from ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Amr (may Allaah be pleased with him), according to which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said “Convey from me, even if it is one verse.”

Al-Haafiz ibn Hajar (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in Fath al-Baari: He said in the hadeeth, “even if it is one verse” so that everyone who heard him would hasten to convey whatever he heard of the verses, even if it was very little, so that in this manner everything that he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) brought would be conveyed. End quote.

Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: If a person understands what he is calling people to, it makes no difference whether he is a great and prominent scholar or a seeker of knowledge who is serious in his pursuit thereof, or a regular person who has certain knowledge of the issue in question. The Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Convey from me, even if it is one verse,” and he did not stipulate that the daa’iyah (caller) should have reached a high level of knowledge, but it is essential that he should have knowledge of that to which he is calling people. But calling out of ignorance or calling based on emotion is not permissible. End quote.

Fataawa ‘Ulama’ al-Balad al-Haraam, p. 329.

there were 51 charges and over 20,000 hours of taped conversation- over 10 years! and al-arian is not being deported -

http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/responses_to_allegations_claims_against_specific_individuals_organizations/

here are 5 solid articles of length about al-arian
convert- you seem to delight in having fake conversations with anonymous who myseriously follows you everywhere just to agree with you-

give us a break- were not idiots-

The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of
Allaah be upon him) said: "The strong man is not the
one who can overpower others (in wrestling); rather,
the strong man is the one who controls himself when
he gets angry." (Reported by Ahmad, 2/236; the
hadeeth is agreed upon).

if you are a muslim, as you claim- your hatred of muslims seems to overwhelm your practice of your own religion-

you have bad manners interrupting what was a very nice moment between friends on these boards in pursuing your own agenda of islamophobia-

we are here to build bridges of understanding with each other- not tear apart the 'other' whomever they may be-

get with the program

To Victoria

Correcting false information with facts is not "backbiting."

It is important to correct false statements and provide the truth.

I am sorry if the facts offend you but it is important to stay with reality not mythmaking.

10-4 on the lack of credibility of some who speak carelessly and consider accuracy unimportant.
Another false statement made was that Al-Arian was found innocent on all charges. That's not the real story. Read this short blurb for a brief overview of the facts:

Sami Amin Al-Arian (b. January 14, 1958 in Kuwait) is a Palestinian computer engineer who accepted a plea bargain which resulted in his conviction with conspiracy to help Palestinian Islamic Jihad. Al-Arian, a former university professor, was arrested by the United States government in 2003 on charges of funding terrorists. A jury acquitted him on eight charges and deadlocked on the remaining nine of the 17 charges against him December 2005 after a six month trial with three co-defendants. On April 14, 2006 Al-Arian pleaded guilty to a single count of conspiracy to provide services to Palestinian Islamic Jihad and agreed to be deported. In return, federal prosecutors agreed to drop the remaining eight charges against him. Al-Arian was sentenced to 57 months in prison and given credit for time served. He was to serve the balance of 19 months and then be deported.

However, Al-Arian served a 14-month sentence for civil contempt of court after refusing to testify against former associates. The 14-month sentence was in addition to the criminal sentence. In December of 2007, a federal judge lifted the civil contempt charge. However, in March of 2008, The Justice Department subpoenaed Al-Arian to testify before another grand jury. He has refused to testify.

Some say that Muslims really need the West to serve as their mutual target of hatred.

If they didn't focus all that hate of theirs on the West, they'd be killing each other. Not unlike what we've seen here in Muslim versus Muslim conflict. Go See the Under God section, the Coda one, for some revert versus convert action. It kind of makes you feel sorry for both of them. Dare we say: Get a life girls!

wow- the first time i try to wing it from memory you guys have a field day of backbiting-

sorry- it was the wrong number- but you still managed to find somethign despite your contention that books etc were needed!
you interpret do not spy to mean spy?
how corrupt!
thats a good hadeeth too-
ill come back with all the i's dotted and t's crossed but not right now as life interrupts-

silly silly bored people-

ive posted that hadeeth on strength so many times on these boards (substantiated of course) i wish there was a way to search here but i dont know how-
maybe soomeone else knows im not so computer savvy...

way to spoil a mood haters!

Anonymous
Your quote below confirmed our suspicion of Victoria’s lack of credibility.
Bukhari 5719. Al-A'raj related from Abu Hurayra that the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "Beware of suspicion. Suspicion is the falsest of speech. Do not pry and do not spy. Do not bid against one another, bidding in order to raise the price, and do not envy one another. Do not hate one another and do not turn your backs on one another. Be slaves of Allah and brothers."
Note: The above applies to Muslims only.

This above quote is as you pointed out is very much different than what Victoria had claimed it to be i.e. control of temper. You and I might think this to be disingenuous of Victoria. Muslims in general do not think of it that way. Their Taqiyya principle makes it permissible (halal) to use deceit and outright lying if they think that furthers the cause of Islam. In situations like this one it does sometimes backfire.

I looked up the reference that Victoria gave us. This is Bukhari 5719, not at all what Victoria quoted. This hadith does explain though why Muslims protect the criminals in their community and won't turn them in. By doing so they are aiding a criminal act themselves. There are other sayings too that advise Muslims to stick together whether doing right or wrong.

LVIII. "O you who believe! Avoid most suspicion. Indeed some suspicion is a crime. And do not spy and do not backbite one another...." (49:12)

5719. Al-A'raj related from Abu Hurayra that the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "Beware of suspicion. Suspicion is the falsest of speech. Do not pry and do not spy. Do not bid against on another, bidding in order to raise the price, and do not envy one another. Do not hate one another and do not turn your backs on one another. Be slaves of Allah and brothers."

arminius, paganplace, priver- thanks for the moment-
(i had posted a smile in response to you priver and initially it posted but it seems to have disappeared- maybe not enough text so-
:)

Victoria
You need to give us more than a number(5719). We need the book number, the volume number in addition to the number of the story or saying (cited above). I am afraid you are mixing between sayings of Mohammad and that of Solomon in Proverbs.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Thomas#The_Gospel_of_Thomas_and_the_historical_Jesus for an in depth analysis of the Gospel/Sayings of Thomas.

Go for the Gusto!

Looks like the girl likes Sclitz Beer as much as her prophet!

The Messenger of Allah (saws) said: “The strong man is not the one who can overpower others; rather, the strong man is the one who controls himself when he gets angry.”
#5719 related by abu hurairah bukhari

(paraphrased) strength is not overpowering another with ones strength- but controlling ones anger-

ive quoted this one so much i guess i figured my old friends here would recognize it

i was trying not to bother anyone with numbers and such but if this makes you happy anon-

go for the gusto-
nice, isnt it?

I have always liked:

Gospel according to Thomas
113 His disciples said to him, "When will the kingdom come?"
"It will not come by watching for it. It will not be said, 'Look, here!' or 'Look, there!' Rather, the Father's kingdom is spread out upon the earth, and people don't see it."

It is wonderful to read of anyone who is engaged in service to others. Christianity should be about service, helping people to come to Christ, keep his commandments and receive the blessings that come therefrom.

Part of service is to help those in difficult circumstances. Many in the developing world are in such circumstances. I belong to a Christian Church that has donated tens of millions of dollars worth of supplies and assistance to many foreign countries. Our Mormon Helping Hands efforts have, as well, made a great difference for good among those caught in natural disasters and other difficulties. We need to be positive toward and supportive of all in religions who seek to serve others.

We should all work together to alleviate suffering everywhere, lift people through helping them make better decisions and showing them love.

Phillip C. Smith, Ph.D.

After 47 comments, Some Reality:

"Until the koran is deflawed, all mosques are "febrezed" and Sunnis and Shiites pacified, no one is safe!!!!

If Muhammed really said what Victoria quoted, that is heartening, but since she failed to provide an actual reference for this saying, like Bukhari # ____, it sadly appears she is just distorting the facts.

Victoria;
You say “one of my favorite sayings of the Prophet(pbuh) is (paraphrased) strength is not overpowering another with ones strength- but controlling ones anger-
something like that-”

Victoria;
You say “one of my favorite sayings of the Prophet(pbuh) is (paraphrased) strength is not overpowering another with ones strength- but controlling ones anger-
something like that-”

You had to mention your prophet(PBUH) and spoil the mood of the ongoing dialogue. Where did your "ideal for a human” say what you claim he had said?

MMA Arminius, PP..

Got room for one more? :)

there is strength in numbers. Maybe it will catch on.

*offers hand to all*

staying away from mosques in the US is better than attending them. they became full of hypocrites and Moslem-FBI agents.it is difficult to live in a country in which you, as a moslem, and only you is being viewed as a potential terrorists!!!!

Victoria,

Welcome!

i only see great strength and beauty in you right now paganplace-
thank you for being brave enough to let us into your private-...

i would be honored to offer my hand-
i am honored to share this space with you both-

Paganplace,

In my humble opinion, for two persons to join hands, even if in a virtual environment, is to share strength. It is not a weakness, ever. Friendship is not a weakness. Not ever. Not ever.

Arminius

Paganplace,

Your hand graces mine. If no one else is here, then we can join both hands. But there should be somebody else around, damnit! I know you are out there! We've got work to do!

Arminius

*taking Arminius' hand* Some will say it is weaknessto pu t one hand in another.... Who will take the other hand of either of us?

Still two open hands, here, who will take one?

Paganplace,

Take my hand!

Sometimes, perhaps many times. bravery is knowing when not to fight. Knowing how to hurt does not mean you will do it, unless you defend yourself and those you love.

Bad dreams suck, we all get 'em. Go get a Guinness or whatever and keep talking.

With love, and God bless,

Arminius

Paganplace,

"Waktah!"
er, say what? Not familiar with that term.

"Let's see what we, the 'meek' can make out of the wreckage. :) Gotcha skills? :)"
OK, us meek folks supposed to inherit the earth. And the wreckage is all too apparent. What skills do I need?!? I'm OK with green stuff....

I guess what it is, Arminius, is, I had a bad, bad, dream last night.

It reminded me I know a great deal more about how to hurt people than anyone should ever want to know.

Some will call this strength.

I do not.

I think i's something else.

I think, it's very important, we be braver than that.

I'll ask you again to take my hand. :)

Waktah!

Let's see what we, the 'meek' can make out of the wreckage. :) Gotcha skills? :)

;)

Paganplace,
"Shall we see about a world?"

OK, let's go for it.

Ah, maybe I'm teasing.

I suppose, despite my demonstrated faciliity with firearms, I've never really found 'Goodness and light' to actually need more than a ten round magazine, as many virtuous Christians as have screamed this was the Devil depriving them of weapons against the Antichrist who will lead them into disastrous wars against babylon in the name of Jesus and lead them to compromise all their beliefs in a despreate bid to prove righteousness politically lest they lose false promises of salvation to any so dirty a motivation as compassion for the poor and destitute....

Eh, well, what can you do, Arminius, that's a Vivtorian idea, anyway, not that that ever sto[[ped anyone.

Nonetheless, as opposed to whatever they say about 'radical leftists,' my Dah was a Marine and I was trained by the Boston Police Department not to worship at the altar of guns you can't hit with, so....

Shall we see about a world?

Paganplace,

OK, here I am, can opener in hand, container of worms being opened.... Guns. Firearms. Things that go boom.

For starters, I am for gun control, but not gun elimination. In regards to the first, I mean registration, training, and certification before buying regardless of the place of purchase. As to the second, I defend the right to own a firearm. I do not currently own one. I support hunting, as long as it is done properly. The 'defense of the home' argument is really debatable; the stats show that when most households have a gun, burglary rates fall, and household murder rates rise. But I always enjoyed target shooting, and I am army trained, so I know the safety rules. Oh, yes, I was also trained in demolition, making things go boom.

In West Berlin, during the Cold War, I had live weapons trained on me. But I never had to face anyone down on that score. You are way ahead of me. I have great respect for your courage.

Arminius

"First, your comment, "If I had to choose a weapon some righteus dude was to shoot me with, it'd be the biggest wet dream possible."

I have not laughed so hard in quite a long time! Thanks!"

May that never not be not-funny... But if you ever have to duck a bullet... the bigger the better. :)

Yeah, though, Arminius, I'm in the South, now. There'[s people who say threatening things... if they bring da shotgun as slow as they bring the words, we're good. :)

No wonder they're afraid of Commies or Arabs invading, can't even react with sincerity and speed when they think the Divil came to town. :)

As a priestess, when I meet frightened children, I teach them how to not freeze.

Kind of comic, really, what some folks figure on as 'macho.'

Silly.

Pardon if I offer no helpful hints. :)

Darn TV and radio, though.

one of my favorite sayings of the Prophet(pbuh) is (paraphrased) strength is not overpowering another with ones strength- but controlling ones anger-

something like that-

Paganplace,

First, your comment, "If I had to choose a weapon some righteus dude was to shoot me with, it'd be the biggest wet dream possible."

I have not laughed so hard in quite a long time! Thanks!

Next, you said,
"There is no 'holy might.'
You choose to do good, or you do not.
There is no posturing. "

You have it there. We are definitely getting somewhere.

Arminius

Myou.. I do find it insulting that some Christians seem to believe that just because I don't believe firearms should be passed out at gun shows, that I don't know more than I would like to remember about what these devices do.

Righteous guys.

Capiche?

I mean, hey, I go to the gun-worshpping South, and I'm frankly *reassured* by the fact that the more you treat a gun as a magic talisman, the less likely you are to come within degrees of hiting. If I had to choose a weapon some righteus dude was to shoot me with, it'd be the biggest wet dream possible.

Been here before. All these tough guys, lucky to get a round on paper under controlled conditions, while I can take a 'girlie' Sig and double-tap all manner of faster than can be counted, ventilate someone like a can of 'Hi-C,' before our stalwart protectors can pre-emptively drop a single magmum round..

There are some things counted as 'protection, Arminius, which are mere ritual, like the doctor that posted here who doesn't trouble with the science... but thinks any random success is 'God.'

Stupid, stupid people.

Violence is, pretty sickening, but, I had a street name that had everything to do with being able to take a tuble, strip a weapon from someone's hand, and turn it back in their face before they could react.

There is no 'holy might.'

You choose to do good, or you do not.

There is no posturing.

First time anyone knew you had anything to posture about is the moment what they thought made them mighty is on a pressure-point.

And that's what that is.

There is no holy might, as the Christians say, .... there's a holy moment where the gun you brought dont' press so hard on your nerve cluster.

Yeah, that goes for Muslims, too.

What the Frigg you think would happen?

Paganplace, you said,
"I dunno, Arminius, you'd think some of these Christians never faced down a weapon before. Someone comes into our neighborhood with a gun, you *take it away,* you don't cower about how everyone with the same skin tone wants to kill you.

Gods, what is this?"

My friend, don't exhaust me this early in the evening! Ya gotta elaborate. I suspect we're onto something here.

Arminius

I mean, Arminius, shouldn't it be obvious by now that it doesn't matter how nice a firearm you got if you can be frightened by a flintlock?

We're still the big kids on the block.

Question is can we grow some pubes.

I dunno, Arminius, you'd think some of these Christians never faced down a weapon before. Someone comes into our neighborhood with a gun, you *take it away,* you don't cower about how everyone with the same skin tone wants to kill you.

Gods, what is this?

Hi, Paganplace,

You said, and rightly, "Christians aren't allowed to say WWJD till they can actually make a sincere effort."

Right you are, and guilty as charged.

Arminius

I mean, hey, look at these Christian-believers paranoid about some idea any courtesy shown to Muslim is tantamount to bending over and handing off some Astroglide....

They live by some need to believe that Yankee people, never mind chicks, can't go tactical and run circles round yer 'Good Old Boys.'

Shhh.

But it's so.

Meaner isn't anywhere near the same as stronger, boys.

The stronger you are, the less you fear.

Frankly, the less chicken**** you are, the less you need a big weapon.

One rule is, the bad guys always bring plenty of weapons.

Stand honorably, and stop freaking out, Christians,

You're embarrassing us.

"“There is no difference in how much parents love their children anywhere in the world."

I find this is often reflected in the faces of Fundie Christians who don't expect a girl can talk like Ted Kennedy and shoot like Annie Oakley.

There's much talk of force, to these bibliolaters, Christian or Muslim.

But someone painted them a picture that don't reflect reality, even if force is all you respect.

And, yes, I kno that those who were raised to believe religion is a brutally-competetive sport can't really grok the notion that I don't think it's statistically-likely I'll be raised by Pagans in my next life, as much as I'd really rather like to.

But, seriously.

Could we show a little class?

I promise I'll bring da Paddy if it's called for... let's just show a little grace or something. Win or lose.

New rule:

Christians aren't allowed to say WWJD till they can actually make a sincere effort.

Angela,

Please do yourself a favor. Pick up your bible, open to Matthew's Gospel, and start reading. Do NOT go to the OT or anywhere else. Pay special attention to exactly what our Lord is saying. When you get to the end of John's Gospel, put the bible down, and think about it. Then pick up that book and start at Matthew again, because you probably don't have the message yet.

The message you look for is the now trite 'What would Jesus do?', and also the one added on this blog, 'How would Jesus understand?'. The message is NOT 'Who would Jesus bomb?'.

Eboo,

A beautiful, beautiful essay. The world needs more like you. Thank you.

Arminius

RCG: Fellow Christians should read some of Mr. McLaren's new spin on God's word. Interpretation: it boggles my mind when I hear that. If you want to interpret scripture, get a concordance or a lexicon or study Hermeneutics: don't distort scripture. So what you're saying is well: God didn't know that things would be the way they are now so it gives us the right to say "well this is what He really meant"; utterly shameful....

test

I agree with the latter, this-world-oriented set of priorities. No argument there. But I do have a perhaps-naive question. If we make that latter set of priorities determinative then ... why do we need God? I mean, if you actually, really, truly, and seriously have to have God to command you to care for each other and the environment -- if the Big Guy actually has to tell you to do that -- then you need professional help. Compassion for each other and compassion for the earth should not have to be "command decisions".
JIM

mr g read my mind- amin to that.

67 mosques in pennsylvania! i had no idea-

ORBITER:
What Would Jesus Invest?
Would he be a philanthropic entrepraneur?

JIM said:
How Would Jesus Understand?

That's one of the best and smartest religious phrases I have ever read here. Holy Chrome, someone asking for understanding first! That's amazing! Thank you for that bit of rationalism.

ANGELA:
What if McLaren IS following God's will, as he interprets it, and as he feels God compells him to? Can God not speak to us, and through us, in our own way? The fact that you can read and write, vote, or do things outside the whims of your husband was once heresy. Have you forgotten? Times change, and though The Word Of God (tm) may not, to you change at all, you cannot interpret and absorb that Word FOR someone else. They have to do it themselves, and because they are not you and are different from you, will see it a different way.

How Would Jesus Understand, indeed. Sometimes, I think there's hope for you Christians yet.

Dr. Patel

Take a look at this site and please advise:

What would Muhammad do?

http://www.freerepublic.com/~ebh/

This piece reeks of inbuilt arrogance.

Imagine Christians telling Muslims that they have a "to-do" list for Muslims at the Mosque.

Muslims would most likely do the opposite of whatever Christians recommend.

Sounds like this guy's finally coming around to catholicism -- it is not by belief alone that one gets to heaven. That was such a cop-out anyway. Believe this and you're done.

As for me, I think piccolo's should never be allowed in a church.

If he were around today, WWJD? I think he'd consider tax cuts for everyone. He'd be for less government and greater lubrication on the wheels of commerce. He'd probably be a futures trader or run a hedge fund.

That _is_ a good question. What Would Journey Do?

angela baby, take a breath. relax. mr. Patel asks you to see beyond your own nose and you throw the most cover-your-ass scripture at him that i've ever seen; "1.only i speak the truth,2do as i say,3don't believe anyone after me.4only i speak the truth."

"Thy kingdom come, thy will be done . . ." But, what does the kingdom look like? How do we understand God's will? A message at the beginning of a construction manual read, "Assembly of Japanese bicycle requires peace of mind." Yet, we are often in such a hurry to build something or do something that we neglect to read the instructions at all. Our anxiety to build and to do emerges from anything but peace of mind. We frequently rush ahead to build or do for fear of "being scattered over the face of the earth(Gen.11)," only to be halted, frustrated, only part way to completion, to ask ourselves, "Where did we put those instructions, anyway?" Too many Christians spend too little time reading their scriptures. Far too few spend any time looking at each others words, let alone those of non-Christians. Before Christians attempt the question of WWJD, we need to ask ourselves HWJU (How would Jesus understand?). The truth sets us free!

Of course, there is always the tension of the church pushing to become a political of cultural force for whatever its vision of "good" is in the world vs. being a refuge of peace and sacred space to retreat temporarily from the rat race with others of similar belief.

I think that America is currently in a season where he refuge factor of safe churches is badly needed. There is nothing wrong with taking care of congregational family. We are being pulled by so many eloquent requests for needed action that there is an instituional sense of exhaustion to many ministries. I just don't see a compelling biblical mandate to go out and change the world.

Mr. Patel,

When is it going to stop. In a word: heresy. Distortion of God's word that's McLaren's new fangled, ear-tickling, soft cotton candy; it's almost a 70s hippie doctrine. In addition, we need to speak truth in love. No where in scripture does Jesus state our will be done: The Lord's Prayer, THY KINGDOM COME, THY WILL BE DONE ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN. It doesn't mean that our kingdom come (sounds like self-servitude); our will be done. Distorting doctrine to suit the new tolerant, do your own thing and it's ok w/me gospel. Wow: what happened to take up your cross daily and follow me and submitting to God's will, not our own. All about self. We are our own little Gods. amazing...Jesus preached REPENT: for the Kingdom of Heaven is at Hand, not our KINGDOM...distorting God's truth to suit everyone's felt needs.

Pretty frightening post....Charles Spurgeon the Downgrade; Christians and fellow human beings should read it! Everything Mr. Spurgeon said over 100 years it coming true and more over, everything Jesus said, coming true to light: 2 Peter 1:4; 1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

Amen to that. Too many times we as Christians focus so much of our energy on things that are internal (budget items, decor, programming, etc.) that we fail to focus on external things (the world around us). Few of us realize that we have the ability to affect change in our world. Jesus didn't say, "Solve your problems then go out." He said to "Go, therefore and teach all nations."