I have to admit, sueprwoman with pink hijab flowing behind her as she flies from NY to the Chi-Town IS pretty funny...

Victoria,
I know you are a very good person, just yanking your chain. Sorry. On my way in today I was hearing that John Lennon's song and was thinking of you..."hope someday you'll join us".

till then you might still see me taunt you here and there but that shouldnt stop you from calling me on it.

Arif

Son of top Hamas leader converts to Christianity
'I hope my father and family open their eyes to Jesus and the Kingdom of God'

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: July 31, 2008
1:35 pm Eastern

By Aaron Klein
© 2008 WorldNetDaily

Sheik Hassan Yousef (Passia.org)
JERUSALEM – The son of one of the most popular leaders in the Hamas terrorist organization has moved to the U.S. and converted to Christianity, it has emerged.

In an exclusive interview with Israel's Haaretz newspaper, Masab Yousuf, son of West Bank Hamas leader Sheik Hassan Yousef, slammed Hamas, praised Israel and said he hoped his terrorist father will open his eyes to Jesus and to Christianity.

"I know that I'm endangering my life and am even liable to lose my father, but I hope that he'll understand this and that God will give him and my family patience and willingness to open their eyes to Jesus and to Christianity. Maybe one day I'll be able to return to Palestine and to Ramallah with Jesus, in the Kingdom of God," Masab said.

Masab said he previously aided his father with Hamas activities, but he now has affection for Israel and laments Hamas.

(Story continues below)

"Send regards to Israel, I miss it. I respect Israel and admire it as a country," he says.

"You Jews should be aware: You will never, but never have peace with Hamas. Islam, as the ideology that guides them, will not allow them to achieve a peace agreement with the Jews. They believe that tradition says that the Prophet Muhammed fought against the Jews and that therefore they must continue to fight them to the death."

Masab slammed Palestinian society as "an entire society [that] sanctifies death and the suicide terrorists. In Palestinian culture a suicide terrorist becomes a hero, a martyr. Sheiks tell their students about the 'heroism of the shaheeds.'"

Masab's father is considered the most popular Hamas figure in the West Bank. He is serving a sentence in Israel for planning or involvement in multiple terror attacks, including an infamous 2002 suicide bombing in the school cafeteria of Jerusalem's Hebrew University in which nine students and staff members were killed.

In a statement to the Palestinian Maan news agency, Masab's brother, Suhaib, strongly denied that Masab converted to Christianity.

But Haaretz stood by its story. The newspaper said it sent a correspondent to the U.S., who met with Masab for a detailed, in-person interview.

Arif, such intrusions in my privacy and business are beneath you. If you're curious about the places I've lived or how I spend my time, just ask.
Don't descend to Deb's low level of personal negative observations (especially based on sketchy info) as a distraction form not knowing the subject being discussed.

Victoria,
Superwoman you must be, in your pink hijab you take in people, you travel subways in NY, your'e in Chicago one day, another state another day... spend 8+ hours on the internet... WOW!

To Deb you say:
"You are the past, DEB, and your only purpose is to stand as an example of what NOT to be."

Harsh words from you about Deb who only points out the inconsistencies muslims report about their "peaceful" religion. To date I have never found a Muslim who admits to anything they have done wrong in the past or present, never. The converts seem to be even worse.
Deb Chatterjee's roots are from India, a country whose people have been hosts to many looters, rapists, colonists, marauders, and many of whom have been Muslims. Despite its violent past India still thrives and forges ahead. They have the most diverse populations and languages of any nation but are democratically charging ahead and fairing far better than their "pure-istan" Muslim neighbors. The pure-istani Muslims are busy perfecting the art of killing each other and making "better" Muslims while India’s graduates fan the globe in high tech jobs. The entire Muslim world has around 500 universities while India alone has around 8,407!!!

Deb Chatterjee, please pay no heed to the harsh words, it comes natural with Islam you know. Continue your balanced and well researched rebuttals. I always love reading your short, sweet but very sharp cutting-edge posts. You must remember that Allah doesnt like the unbelievers. As I go I must leave you with the great words of a past warrior you may have read about...

Bukhari:V4B53N386
"Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah alone or pay us the Jizyah tribute tax in submission. Our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says: 'Whoever amongst us is killed as a martyr shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever survives shall become your master.'"

I often wonder if you are a woman what kind of luxurious life that would be?

Victoria,

What would your take on Dr. Siddiqui be ? Would you, if you knew that she was also engaged in a plot of mass-murdering Americans - a crime that only equals that of Radovan Karadzic, report her to the US law enforcement authorities, or, would you wait till CAIR (Council of American Islamic Relations) gives you the green signal to do so ? What would your allegiance be to USA or to Islam ?

Justice is not contingent on race, or religion, or caste, or family.

"O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even though it is against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, be he rich or poor, Allah is a better Protector to both (than you) are. So follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you may avoid justice, and if you distort your witness or refuse to give it, verily, Allah is Ever Well-Acquainted with what you do" (Quran 4:135).

You really have no idea about who Karadzic is, the history of the former Yugoslavia, what happened at Srebrenica- the political forces that shaped his capture- nor any insight or knowledge of the subject at hand whatsoever.

You are so immersed in your own hatred and prejudices- that no matter what the subject you twist it to vent that hatred.

That is so sad- I don't know how you get through your days.

I took a homeless woman into my home who had lost an eye to a rifle slammed into it by a serbian soldier- she wore a patch, and had other damages upon her that will last her lifetime.
The home I as living in , I had a Serbian christian landlord.
They spent hours at my dining room table, speaking in English, and embroiling dialogues that lasted into the evening- my lady friend had a lot of anger- alot of bitterness- and alot of reasons to be so.

My landlord was such a gentle guy, and was so politically opposed to the actions of his own government that he emigrated to America.

He never expressed any "growing frustrations that non-Muslims have for Muslims."

He fully recognized that it was pure racist nationalism- and agreed that it was so ugly that he, himself, could not bear to be around it.
Not only him, but many many Serbians in the neighborhood, as it was a Serbian neighborhood in North Chicago, were of the same opinion.

If these two people, coming from a society in opposition to each other- could come to a common ground, and find peace and healing towards each other, and renew and affirm their similarities,
who are you to speak for them?

You contribute only the desire to drag others into your lonely hatred- and react with verbal violence against any who try to drag you out of the darkness of your xenophobia into the light of reason.

But yours is a weak voice, whose rantings get smaller with every instance of justice, and every new child who is born and taught that such racism and ugliness should be rejected and relegated to the past.

You are the past, DEB, and your only purpose is to stand as an example of what NOT to be.

Victoria (and other bleeding hearts rooting for Islam):

Islam is the most predatory religion/theocracy that always attempts to destabilize other non-Muslim societies.

Many have stated that Radovan Karadzic is a "butcher" of Bosnian Muslims. I would repeat that such "butchers" are a by-product of the growing frustrations that non-Muslims have for Muslims.

Muslims, like it or not, have terrorist tendencies inspired by the Quran. The Quran does condone violence against non-Islamic states. The harmony and peace that Muslims cite is really shallow. Look beneath, and you shall find simmering hatred. The pot is always boiling.

Contrary to our politically correct beliefs, the most educated Muslim is also not exempt from such blatant pan-Islamism. While all 9/11 terrorists were educated, I would like to cite the following recent newsitem from New York Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/05/world/asia/05detain.html?_r=1&ref=world&oref=slogin

Here an extremely well educated (MIT+Brandeis) woman, Dr. Aaifa Siddiqui, is currently facing prosecution for shooting US troops in Afghanistan. So, at the end while nothing may be proved against Dr. Siddiqui, one can assume that because a Muslim is educated, s/he cannot be taken as a emancipated non-Jehadi just on face value. (The reason I am assuming that such a case would fail because the laws in USA have loopholes which allow terrorists and Islamists to preach and incie hatred, and get away with it. Prosecuting Muslim jehadis under the current US legal system is extremely hard, if not impossible at times.)

It turns out that it has to be verified and proven in a court of law that the Muslim in question is above all such suspicions. Of course, Amnesty International shall cry hoarse till the moon turns into Green Cheese. What if, in the future, Americans go frustrated and intensely lobby their respective lawmakers to pass a legislation that would place a moratorium which would prevent Muslims from entering USA ? (Of course, Amnesty International shall cry hoarse till the moon turns into Green Cheese.)

Radovan Karadzic deserves punishment. But what about the Muslim terrorists who have killed thousands of innocents in the name of Islam ? Are they not to be touched because of their religious persuasion ? How about the murderers of Nick Berg, Ken Bigley, Paul Johnson, Daniel Pearl who were decapitated and then the video appeared on Youtube ? How are those crimes excusable compared to Radovan Karadzic ?

Victoria wrote:

"Islam came to Bosnia in 1463 under Ottoman Turks. During Ottoman rule, many Bosnians embraced Islam. Bosnia remained under Ottoman rule until 1878, when it was given to Austria-Hungary as a colony."

That's perverse, Victoria. The conversion (to Islam of Serbians) was carried out by the Sword of Islam (Ottoman Turks), as it happened in many countries which fell to the rape, pillage, loot, arson and mayhem that preceded the "message of peace" that Islam brought with it.

Stop obfuscating !

Muslims in Bosnia: The Multi ethnic ideals versus racio-nationalism of Serbs (1992-95)

Bosnia is another bright example of Islamic, non-racial egalitarianism and tolerance in Europe. Bosnia today stands as an example of the principle of a multi ethnic society which refused to submit to the racial ideals and attacks of Serb nationalism.

Islam came to Bosnia in 1463 under Ottoman Turks. During Ottoman rule, many Bosnians embraced Islam. Bosnia remained under Ottoman rule until 1878, when it was given to Austria-Hungary as a colony.

While those living in Bosnia enjoyed the benefits of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, South Slavs in Serbia and elsewhere were calling for a South Slav state. World War I began when Serb nationalist Gavrilo Princip assassinated the Archduke Ferdinand in Sarajevo. After the war, Bosnia became part of the South Slav state of Yugoslavia.

It was given to Croatia in World War II and during the Cold War the Communist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was established under Josef Tito. Bosnia was reestablished as a republic with its medieval borders.

Yugoslavia's unraveling was hastened by the rise of Slobodan Milosevic to power in 1986. Milosevic's embrace of the Serb nationalist agenda led to intrastate ethnic strife. Slovenia and Croatia both declared independence in 1991, and Bosnia-Herzegovina soon followed.

In February 1992, the Bosnian Government held a referendum on independence for all people living in Bosnia. Bosnian Serbs, supported by neighboring Serbia, responded with armed resistance aiming to partition the republic along ethnic lines in an attempt to create a "greater Serbia."

In April 1992, Bosnia and Herzegovina was the most ethnically diverse of the Yugoslav republics, According to a Yugoslavian census in 1991, Bosnia was 43.7% Muslim, 31.4% Serbian, and 17.3% Croatian.

The Bosnians resisted the genocidal Serb attacks despite the arms embargo, through most of 1995, ending with the Dayton Accord, signed on November 21, 1995 which retains the multiethnic ideals which Bosnians cherished. However, because of the way Dayton accord is designed, this freedom is more a nightmare than a dream come true.

This was the worst case of genocide in Europe since World War II. 250,000 people were killed and 2 million people became homeless resisting the Serb's nationalism and racism to cherish the ideals that all human being can live together. This was a principled defense lead by Dr. Alija Ali Izetbegovich

In the name of real justice and fairness Matt, not all of those indicted by the Hague were Serbs.

Any protracted war can have a variety of actors but it does a disservice to the 8,000 men and the widows, mothers and daughters and sisters- left behind and unprotected who had their own monumental suffering at Srebrenica.

It was a massacre, with the intention of eradicating every male and the genocide of a people.
And, in the cases of genocide- there actually are definable victims.
Denying victimhood is not exactly erring on the side of justice.
Which is an honorable and mutual goal.

Karadzic and his crimes, are specific to SREBRENICA in particular.

By your reasoning, we could go back to the assassination in Sarajevo of Archduke Franz Ferdinand when that shot heard round the world declared war against Serbia- whose series of events led to The Great War (WWI)-

But we are dealing in a specifc event here- Srebrenica- and the author of that misery, Radovan Karadzic- a distinct and known actor.

There is not much ambiguity in this instance.

And the blame is not being levied at all Serbs- although some may paint it that way.
But a particular person for a specific event.

And there are many Serbs who feel that a great injustice was done in Srebrenica also- at least in Chicago.

Dear Sir,
Dr. Karadzic may, or may not, be personally and individually guilty of the things you Mr. Patel, the Western mass-media, and the Western governments all claim (in advance of, and to the absolute prejudice of, the actual trial, of course) - and the issue is rather, to what degree Mr. Karadzic bears command responsibility (did he know, or ought he to have known, in advance of the commission of war crimes?) for atrocities committed by Bosnian Serb forces. However, it is most interesting to note that the blame for wartime atrocities always seems to rest nearly entirely on the Serbs. Hardly a mention is made (save an occasional Croat) of the shared responsibility other ethnic groups had in the violent dissolution of Yugoslavia - and yet the four wars of Yugoslav succession were hardly one-sided affairs.

A few people who will never be brought to the Hague but surely bear a great deal of command responsibility for the atrocities committed by their own people include: Franjo Tudjman of Croatia, and Alija Izetbegovic of the Muslim faction of Bosnia (both deceased); Haris Silajdzic of Bosnia; and Hashim Thaci and Agim Ceku of Kosovo. They won’t face justice in The Hague because although they had as much command responsibility over their forces, those forces committed war crimes whilst under the protection of the West.

There absolutely were innocent victims on all sides, but no ethnic group was innocent - and none should be permitted to evade responsibility for contributing to the atrocities. Not even the most infamous of atrocities during the wars were as clear-cut as popular media and "history" make them out to be - the propaganda machine has clearly reserved the role of "victim" to the Muslims (and occasionally the Croats), while the role of "villain" is perennially played by the Serbs.

All the bile reserved for the Serbs, only reinforces the contention on the part of many Serbs that the West (and the ICTY), is hopelessly biased against them, and that the international community unfairly reserves to the Serbs alone almost total responsibility for the 1990's Balkans Wars.

Mr. Patel, you may continue to feel your righteous anger towards Karadzic - and when he is most assuredly convicted you may feel your anger justified. Please remember, however, that the Balkans Wars of the 1990s had their genesis in Tito's premeditated decision to abjure the pursuit of justice against the Balkan criminals of WWII; that abject failure festered and roiled just beneath the surface of various ethnic communities until it exploded. After WWII, the Serb and Roma and others deserved to see justice done to their Croat, Muslim, and Albanian SS oppressors - but their legitimate need for justice was trumped by Tito's overarching desire to create his new socialist Yugoslavia – all to the Balkans' eventual detriment.

All the victims of atrocities during the 1990's Balkans Wars deserve justice – Croat, Muslim, Serb, Roma, Gora, and Albanian. One-sided justice is not justice at all – it is vengeance.

Such an elegant and irrefutable knowledge of the subject at hand Deb.

"Anyone with a sane mind would have hatred..."

Yes, sanity and hatred are synonymous.
How well you exhonerate your own hatred.

Victoria flubbered:

"Cannot act unilaterally? Tell that to the 4.2 refugees from Iraq, the 600,000 children who died from a direct result of sanctions (Lance Report)- and the entire country."

Islam has had its own history of racist hatred and genocide like other cultures/religions/traditions. The difficulty is that Muslim organizations (like CAIR) blindly rubbishes any such allegations as a "conspiracy to malign Islam by Christian Crusaders", without showing any remorse or introspection. If Islam cannot find a soft non-Muslim target so easily, it'll go after its own folks. Just look at recent events in Pakistan, and you may (?) see how bloodlust has been live and active there.

"Your overwhelming hatred of muslims isn't a substitute for having a grasp of history."

Anyone with a sane mind would have hatred for Islamic doctrines and its other canons of faith. Of course the more ossified would equate hatred for a message with hatred for its messengers (humans).

You are still pregnant (with such abhorrent ideas) ?

It took over a decade for the Serbs to manage to 'find' Karadzic.
And, he is conveniently found just when the Serbs bid for entry into the European Union after years of isolation would bring them into compliance with the ICTY International Criminal Tribunal for Former Yugoslavia
http://www.un.org/icty/

I suppose we will be seeing another miraculous "find" of Mladic. The last piece int he puzzle.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7520810.stm

But the US only stepped in AFTER the damage was done. Which is the point.

As for this statement-
"The USA is not a bunch of terrorists like most Muslim countries. They cannot act unilatreally on behalf of Muslims."

Cannot act unilaterally? Tell that to the 4.2 refugees from Iraq, the 600,000 children who died from a direct result of sanctions (Lance Report)- and the entire country.

Your overwhelming hatred of muslims isn't a substitute for having a grasp of history.

The non-actions of the US during the massacres are one of it's embarrassments.
Not even Richard Holbrooke recalls them with any pride.

Victoria, the self-appointed spokeswoman for Islam floundered as:

"The US did not stop the slaughter and rape of thousands of muslims- they did stand idly by."

The USA is not a bunch of terrorists like most Muslim countries. They cannot act unilatreally on behalf of Muslims. But, having said all that I recall that Prez. Bill Clinton ordered carpet bombing of Serbia, a former NATO ally of USA and NATO bombed the hell out of them. So, you are still spreading false news about "USA stand idly by ??"

Are you OK ? Can you tell us if you recall what 2+2 = ?

I'm a bit surprised that no one remembers Srebrenica-
I know the papers didn't report much at the time, but surely not everyone here believes Richard Holbrooke and his revisionsist account are the only version.
The US did not stop the slaughter and rape of thousands of muslims- they did stand idly by.

But, to a man here- everyone seems content to accept the fox news version-

there were thousands of refugees- all women and children- it's not even difficult to verify.

even the laziest of googles turns this up-
http://www.haverford.edu/relg/sells/srebrenica/srebrenica.html

I suppose that people also forget (or never knew) that the World Court in the Hague stated about 2 years ago that Milosevich and the Serbian people did engage in massacres- but stopped short of calling it genocide, not because it doidn't qualify- but because the erbian government pled the case that a flood of lawsuits agianst them would destabilize their economy.

Kosovo in SERBIA!

What? Yet more mutually fuelled recrimination between Abrahamic religionists? It's the same old same old – each side demonises the others and minimises the evils of its own tradition. Yet divine violence is sacralised in all three "religions of the Book" - the odour of blood hangs over them, no matter how much winsome incense is burned. The Hebrew Bible features major instances of God-endorsed slaughter in the cause of cultural identity and lebensraum. Christianity passive-aggressively consigns those outside the sect not just to death, but everlasting cremation (and at times has actualised that cremation in this life!). And Islam stays true to the legacy of its two spiritual progenitors, and has excelled at both hell-mongering and "righteous" conquest. All of these faiths were founded on radical, punitive "us-them" polarities, and on an attitude of absolutist join-us-or-perish zeal towards the Other. In cultural terms, Karadzic is simply a misplaced Joshua. Transpose him to Late Bronze Age Canaan, and his genocidal skills might now be celebrated in holy scripture! Is it any surprise that the hellbent zealots, holy warriors, and ethnic cleansers of this world continue to find divine sanction for their acts in the "religions of the Book"? Why do humane souls still allow themselves to be entangled in these texts of terror, and continue to apologise for them? Why not repent and repudiate and build afresh?

I've been reading this Patel guy's posts for about two months and feel that like most of the Muslims he's a big hypocrite. Whenever Muslims are weak or in minority, they want dialogue, pluralism, co-existence, equal treatment, etc, etc. But, in Muslim majority places those things don't exist. They just treat non-Muslims like dirt, do not even allow the simple basic human rights or allow them to worship or carry any religious books or symbols. Mr. Patel, you should write about the bad practices and bad things that are happening in Muslim countries if people want to take you seriously. You and your interfaith thing have no credibility at all.

If I were Karadjick I would be very worried knowing what I know about the Muslim Hell. He will be wearing clothes of fire as well as being surrounded in every direction with fire. His neck would be yoked and his body would be so big that a tooth would be as big as Mount Uhud. He will be drinking puss and eating a bitter plant. The place is segregated into seven levels according to the earthly faiths. The above description is for the Christians level( second level) and that is where our friend shall spend eternity. I hate to contemplate the 7th level which is reserved for the Arabs who fought Mohammad.

I'm against mass killing by anyone, but I think the other posters bring up a good point about the bloodshed that Muslims have committed. I wonder if Mr.Patel's blood boils when he sees Ground Zero in New York where the Twin Towers fell down. Or is American blood not precious enough for justice and righteous indignation?

Good point Eboo about the policeman standing by and watching the rapists and murderers operate. I remember thinking very much the same things as your father while watching that stuff on the news. It was all so very unnecessary.

But your analogy isn't entirely correct. It was more like the US was just one policement in a crowd of policemen. At the back of the crowd. Other policement were closer. And the US was too polite to push them aside and handle the situation alone.

One of the problems with the world's system of international governance is that it requires multilateral unanimity in order to get anything done. Just look how the US was vilified for removing Saddam from power with only a UN order and a 50-country coalition - just because france and Germany wanted to protect their business interests in Iraq. If we had taken unilateral action in Bosnia, we would have gotten the same result - international vilification and condemnation and cies of "unilateralist hegemonster", etc. So while the diplomats bickered and postured about, Karadzic thrived.

Today we have people just as bad as Karadzic - in Zimbabwe, in Darfur, etc. But nobody does anything while the murderers do their bloody work. Why? Because all the murderer has to do is maintain just one or two allies and they become entirely immune to international action. Tyranny of the minority and all that.

Eboo Patel is a hypocrite of the highest rank. He curses Radovan Karadzic for crimes against Bosnian Muslims, but remains philosophical and more evasive on crimes commmitted at the command of Islam. Beheadings, beatings and other forms of torture committed by his fellow Muslims escape his radar screen. Terrorism, bomb blasts to glorify Islam are just not enough to make him stir. He remains interested in some bull about Interfaith garbage, while his fellow coreligionists commit crimes and mayhem all over the world. Strangely, naive Americans gulp his garbage and dupe themselves into think that Islam is a peaceful religion, and it is all fault of non-Muslims. I just don't know how and when can we end such hypocrisy.

I met Radovan Karadic before the war and he was clearly a psycopath then also. He was full of hate and when I mentioned that I was interested in Bosnia's interesting culture he became very angry, later I saw him in a local restaurant in Maryland and he was very rude to me, he yelled at me and was already intent on murdering the population of Bosnia. Karadic is truely the most sick human I have ever seen. I think the Bosnian government should have used its military and intelligence services to perhaps capture and kill Radovan Karadic something the Bosnian government had a responsibility to do. Unfortunately there are many people in this world who think such military and police actions are too extreme. Let those who believe in having Karadic live out life safely in a jail see their sisters being gang raped by Serbian people, then they may not be so liberal and their support for such things as the Hague Tribunal will dissappear.

Of course, I don't think much of people's idead of Hells. People will try to put me in one for inappropriate snuggling, never mind what this man did.

Me, well, I believe in a Very. Patient. God/dess.

And anyone who thinks that's 'getting off easy' ain't thought it through.

And that's not to say I don't think there's a whole lot of folks out there with a perfectly-legit right to make a corpse of the man.

Just do not let him make you become the thing he thought he was killing.

You speak of rape, Mr. Patel. I once had a man who raped me dead-to-rights. At my mercy.

It wasn't mercy, though.

It's just I wasn't willing to let him turn me into a killer. This was not comfortable. This had no comfort of imagining Hells for him or rewards for me. It just was. It was a piece of myself I kept. Turns out it was the important piece.

"“They are using rape as a tool of war,” he would scream"

Mr. Patel. Don't you understand? It has never, ever, been anything else. Monotheists say it is 'sinful sex' out of control, it's not. It's *war* out of control. It's *war* trying to 'conquer' sex, and through sex, and by sex.

Rape is not about the sex.

Rape is about *destroying* sex.

Allow me to point out that when the regime shifted from doing horrible things to Muslims and Croats to doing horrible things to Gypsies, *that's* when international attention flagged.

*I* think the idea the dude will 'roast in Hell' is *too easy* an idea.

Personally, I think *that* leads to extremism and absolutist violence. It's like the idea of the death penalty, 'If I'm already up for the 'Ultimate penalty' why not keep doing more and more, why not shoot cops, why not lie, why not make an ideology where in order to avoid some Hell , I must be absolutely right to rape and hurt my neighbor?'

Let's presume for the moment that Who I call Goddess and Who you call God have some sort of connection with each other.

Fear of your mutual Hell did not scare this man.

In fact, fear of your mutual Hell very likely *motivated* this man, and gave him the very excuses he needed to commit his desperate and fearful and dehumanizing crimes.

There is no measure of suffering any God could impose, that that man is capable of enduring, that will make any of this right.

Some monotheists claim, 'The chief delight of the saved is watching the torments of the damned.'

And I not only think that's *insane,* in the thinking world, but, *horrible* to that which we call souls.

I think, that idea is *torment* to any soul I' want to lay claim to having.

I think he did everything he did out of some idea of superiority. I think. what would be both punishment and ...healing, would be not for gentle souls to watch him suffer, but for him to watch gentle souls prosper. Without his fears.

Don't give in to vengeance, Mr. Patel. If he has to go, it should be clean.

But someone must make that stroke.

Living well makes great antipasti.

It's clear the SOB hid well enough for long enough, but.

Got im.

And they got him with *police work* not blowing anyone up.

Good show.

Justice and 'Hell' have ....well, nothing to do with each other.

I dunno about your Hells, really, as opposed to his.

But Justice may yet lend us Her eyes to ....Look at this man.

I suggest we join hands and look concertedly.

There's a lot of mythology going on here.

http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=673#comment-171140

I guess that if you can't have a real genocide, get together w/the US State Dept and invent one...

Historians have recently revealed (from archives opened this year by the U.S. Government) that we were complicit in allowing hundreds of thousands of Koreans to be slaughted at the beginning of the Korean War. Of course, the "Allies" carpet bombed Germany and Japan---killing hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians, women and cildren during World War II. Why is it, now in 2008... that slaughter is looked upon as an anathma?

After working and living in Muslum controlled countries for years....believe me, we are all infidels ....and are lower than a dog in their eyes. At the end of the day....the Nations of Islam will slaughter us if we don't get rid of them first. Not a nice thing to say...even to think...but it IS reality. Ask any non-muslum who has lived and worked in Islamic ruled countries...and they will attest to the above truth.

While not condoning Karadzic for everything he did or ordered others to do....perhaps he had/has the knowledge and foresight to know that it was/is either "them or us". Sad but true.

This comment is not in any way meant to degrade or in any manner violate the rules as set forth by The Washington Post. This personal comment is simply a reflection on the situation(s) as printed... concerning Serbs and Radovan Karadzic over the past twenty years.

Capt. Ed Edwards
Brookhaven, MS 39601

Eboo, my blood boils with hate not only when someone commits mass killings, but when a muslim extremist blows him/herself up killing if only one person. We have come to believe that the worst people in the world are those that commit the greatest numbers of heinous acts. An evil person is anyone that takes the life of an innocent person, irrespective of how many he/she manages to kill at any given time.

This almost compares with the crimes carried out in the name of Islam against humanity that seem to be routine in the Middle East against Israelis and far too often, against captured American soldiers.

That they appeared to target general civilian populations is most unfortunate, but the history of Islamic conquest in that area of the world, where young men were castrated, if not killed outright, by the forces of Islamic expansionism was not even rivaled by the hordes of Genghis Khan.

If there was a hell, Radovan Karadzic's place in it would be standing on the heads of muzlums.

The US should butt out of Europe's petty bickerings and keep to ourselves.

How was this allowed to happen? Americans were still recovering from the "Vietnam Syndrom", hesitant to show the slightest hint of military force. Key senators conveniently brushed aside responsibility by calling it a civil war, which it was not. Clinton chose to fall in behind other NATO allies in not pressing for strong military action. Bosnian Serbs overran a United Nations "safe area", an event to which the White House remained consipuously silent. Senator Bob Dole continued to speak out against our "do nothing" policy. American's slowly woke up. The word "genocide" reentered our everyday vocabulary. Things got a lot worse before they got better. Think Darfur.

"There were also widespread media reports about a surge among Muslim women seeking surgery to reattach their hymens to give suitors the illusion of virginity and a Muslim husband who refused to allow a male doctor to perform an emergency Caesarean section on his wife"

SOURCE:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/25/AR2008072503004.html?hpid=sec-religion

Can you believe this Religion??? I mean what kind of Animals do this- I am sorry, I offended the Animals..

Eboo,
Please stop these histrionics and write how your "brothers" bombed Bangalore & Ahmedabad in the last two days killing scores on unsuspecting innocents including women and children who were shopping or having a snack.
I never hear anything regarding those 'brothers' - I bet they are 'special' for you.

Radovan Karadzic demonstrates what happens when psychiatrists get involved in politics.

We drag these ancient superstitions into the modern world by indoctrinating our children into thinking they are true and factual; and wonder why, as adults, they behave insanely by killing others who are indoctrinated into believing some other nonsense.

Any wonder the world is so screwed up?
I don't see this ever changing, unless we start questioning the veracity of what our cultures raise us to believe.

As far as we know there are no gods. And until someone shows us otherwise we should stop taking it for granted that there are such celestial beings; which would seem to exist, if at all, only in our imaginations

Tolstoy said that patriotism is an evil because it sets men against each other.
I believe religion is evil for the same reason.

There are no gods; which makes religion ludicrous as well as evil.

Anonymous quotes Avneri, a Jewish politician as saying:
“Because Islam expressly prohibited any persecution of ‘peoples of the book’. In Islamic society, a special place was reserved for Jews and Christians …”.

Yeah sure ! A special place was reserved for the people of the book. It is spelled out in the “Omar Pact“ cited below. If that is not discrimination, humiliation and oppression and compulsion, I don’t know what is. You and your ilk should avoid provoking us to dig into the past and expose all that dirt that is painful to us and should also be more painful to you.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/pact-umar.html

1993. Muslims near Srebrenica killed 3.500 Serbs.
1995. Serbs killed many Muslims in Srebrenica. Serbs are war crimes, Muslims are not. It is USA justice. USA made first Islam country in Europe-Bosnia. Why? USA bombed Serbia 24.03.1999.-11.06.1999., killed 3.500-4000 Christian Serbs to make second Islam country in Europe-Kosovo. Serbs were ally of USA in WW1 nad WW2, Muslims were Hitler's ally.

Simple Simon: Here is an Israeli peace activist who negates your diatribe:

The Israeli is Mr. Uri Avnery, a scholar and peace activist and once a Knesset member. In a recent article, Mr. Avnery says, “The treatment of other religions by Islam must be judged by a simple test: how did the Muslim rulers behave for more than a thousand years when they had the power to ’spread the faith by the sword’?”

For many centuries, he says, the Muslims ruled Greece. “Did the Greeks become Muslims? Did anyone try to Islamise them? On the contrary, Christian Greeks held the highest positions in the Ottoman administration.

“The Bulgarians, Serbs, Romanians, Hungarians and other European nations lived at one time or another under Ottoman rule and clung to their Christian faith. Nobody compelled them to become Muslims and all of them remained devoutly Christian.”

Then he points to a fact which perhaps most Christians do not know. When the Crusaders invaded Palestine, the majority had remained Christian in spite of 400 years of Muslim rule. Then “in the name of gentle Jesus”, he says, the Crusaders “massacred its Muslim and Jewish inhabitants”.

He adds: “There is no evidence whatsoever of any attempt to impose Islam on Jews. As is well known, under Muslim rule, the Jews of Spain enjoyed a boom the like of which the Jews did not enjoy anywhere else until almost our time.”

Then giving the names of some great Jewish poets and scholars, Mr. Avnery says, “In Muslim Spain, Jews were ministers, poets, and scientists” and “Christian, Jewish and Muslim scholars worked together and translated ancient Greek philosophical and scientific texts. That was indeed the Golden Age.

“How would this have been possible had the Prophet decreed the ‘spreading of the faith by the sword’?” Then he refers to the re-conquest of Spain by Catholics and says: “The Jews and Muslims were presented with a cruel choice: to become Christians, to be massacred or to leave.”

Then he asks, “Where did the hundreds of thousands of Jews … escape? Almost all of them were received with open arms in the Muslim countries. The Jews settled all over the Muslim world, from Morocco … to Iraq, from Bulgaria (then part of the Ottoman empire) … to Sudan. Nowhere were they persecuted. They knew nothing like the tortures of the Inquisition … and the terrible mass expulsions that took place in almost all Christian countries up to the Holocaust.”

He asks, “Why?” and then he answers, “Because Islam expressly prohibited any persecution of ‘peoples of the book’. In Islamic society, a special place was reserved for Jews and Christians …” Is this fascism?

Then he says something touching: “Every honest Jew who knows the history of his people cannot but feel a deep sense of gratitude to Islam, which has protected the Jews for 50 generations, while the Christian world persecuted the Jews and tried many times ‘by the word’ to get them to abandon their faith”.

The story about “spreading the faith by the sword”, he says “is an evil legend, one of the myths that grew up in Europe” during the many wars with Muslims.

Muslims are mindful that Islam shares common roots with both Judaism and Christianity — the belief in the God of Abraham, Old Testament prophets, and the virgin birth of Jesus, the Messiah.

The Muslims ruled India too for a thousand years but chose to remain a minority rather than become a majority by persecuting the Hindus. Even Delhi had a non-Muslim majority until at the time of the fall of the Mughal empire.

Compare all this with inequality by birth in the Hindu caste system, the Hindu practices of urine-drinking, female infanticide, bride-killings for the sake of dowry, burning alive of widows (Sati), and the recent genocide of Muslims in Gujarat.

Religion 101:

Part A- The flaws and errors of Judaism:

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was either the embellishment of the lives of three different men or a mythical character as was mythical Moses, the "Tablet-Man" who talked to burning bushes and made much magic in Egypt.

Many of the 1.5 million Conservative Jews and many of their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT.

simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

Observer wrote " Your prophet had on his death bed ordered that the few Jews and Christians who escaped his massacres in the Arabian Peninsula be “cleansed” out of there. He left it for his lieutenants to devise the means. It is a measure of Muslim intolerance that not a single Church, Synagogue or Temple is in the Muslim’s “‘Holy Land”, and NO non-Muslim is allowed within 20 miles of Mecca or Medina."

And what did the Jews do when they took over Palestine after their numero uno prophet Moses led them out of Egypt? Killed everyone who lived there, except a few taken as slaves. Judaism is based on genocide. That's why it's so easy for Israelis to go about their Final Solution for their little problem with the Palestinians.

It is a measure of Jewish intolerance and blood lust that their claim to Palestine is based on genocide.

Islamic invaders from middle east were far more efficient in mass killings in India than Karadzic’s murderers in Bosnia. Mogul rulers in India were far more murderous than Karadzic’s murderers in Bosnia.

Muhammad Qasim, Mahmud Ghazni, Muhammad Khilji, Firuz Shah, Mogul emperors starting from Baber to Humayun, Akbar, Shahjahan, Jehangir, Aurangzeb - all these Muslim imvaders and rulers have murderered far more Hindus in India than anywhere else in human history.

The massacres perpetrated by Muslims in India are unparalleled in history. In his book The Story of Civilization, famous historian Will Durant lamented the results of what he termed "probably the bloodiest story in history." In sheer numbers, they are bigger than the Jewish Holocaust, the Soviet Terror, the Japanese massacres of the Chinese during WWII, Mao’s devastations of the Chinese peasantry, the massacres of the Armenians by the Turks, or any of the other famous crimes against humanity of the 20th Century. But sadly, they are almost unknown outside India.

There are several reasons for this. In the days when they ruled India, the British, pursuing a policy of divide-and-rule, whitewashed the record of the Muslims so that they could set them up as a counterbalance to the more numerous Hindus. During the struggle for independence, Gandhi and Nehru downplayed historic Muslim atrocities so that they could pretend a façade of Hindu-Muslim unity against the British.

What an excellent, illuminating piece.

Sometimes I despair when I read all the ugly responses and endless bickering between adherents to this faith or that ideology in this forum. But it's especially important that those people read your insights.

And remeber, all those Middle East countries were Christian before Muslims started their death and destruction.

Orpheus says:
“Had Muslims wanted to wipe out Jews, they could have done so 100 times over in history, such as in Spain and the Ottoman Empire.”

They had. How many Jews or Christians are citizens of any of the countries of the Arabian Peninsula? Your prophet had on his death bed ordered that the few Jews and Christians who escaped his massacres in the Arabian Peninsula be “cleansed” out of there. He left it for his lieutenants to devise the means. It is a measure of Muslim intolerance that not a single Church, Synagogue or Temple is in the Muslim’s “‘Holy Land”, and NO non-Muslim is allowed within 20 miles of Mecca or Medina.

i wonder how many iraqui people blood does thaqt when they hear the names geore w bush or little dick cheny or donald rumsfeldt.. war and force do not owork in the real world anymore. on a large scale because you make too many people who are entitled to make things right withwrong. that i thnk is th point you try to make right with wrong with war. i would caution israel right now to listen carefully to what the iranian president has actually benn saying. i believe he has been trying to break the news easily to you that they already have nuclear wepons. and now you are like the us and russia you will finally have to come to the barganing table in good faith or you have seen they have the missle to deliver thier nuclear wepon to make you quite correctly if it happens the first contry to be wiped off the world but it would only happen in you used your wepons on them first and by neccessity you wouold have to use nuclear. think about his prasing and choice of word when the presiden of iran talks about refining uranium for purely peceful reason and look at the twoinkle in his ey and laughter under his voice. this man is not crazy or stupid he is train engeneer and he talks on the fly much better than our president. my ancestors were jewish so i'm no anti semite nor am i a fan of the terroist i think all people who use violence are wrong and need to immediatly stop i dont know why i wwrote this but sometimes i feel things and things occur to me that i know i'msupposed to share and that if god can talk through a donkey maybe at times he can talk through a jack ass like me not that i'm claiming that is happing right now. i'm in a very reflective mood tonite forgive me if i' being to wordy or saying things i have no business saying. i just trust this place whenit talks to me..but its not 100 % but enough t get my attention

The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq civil war, totals 4,127 US troops dead (3,360 combat, 767 non-hostile) and 86,136 – 93,995 Iraqi civilians killed

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

We assume the Sunni and Shiites responsible for this blood bath go to hell asap.

It's amazing how much venom is spewed at Mr. Patel because he is Muslim, which has nothing to do with the topic of his article, a bloodthirsty murderer like Karadzic. it exposes the underlying Islamophobia of a good number of posters, especially the Jews and Hindus. It's comical how the Jewish posts dredge up history of 1400 years ago and claim this is an example of Muslim hatred toward the Jews. In Medina, Mohammed dealt with the Jews according to Mosaic law for treason, a time honored characteristic of the Jewish peoples. They were punished not for being Jewish, but for their treachery and threat to the entire population of Medina, Muslim and otherwise. Had Muslims wanted to wipe out Jews, they could have done so 100 times over in history, such as in Spain and the Ottoman Empire. It was their foolishness that they kept the scourge of humanity alive to then perpetuate their own brand of ethnic cleansing when they created Israel out of stolen land. Talk about a cuckoo syndrome. Of course, those who seemingly defend Karadzic do so because they are supportive of that other scourge of humanity, the Serbs, who set the ball in motion for WWI, the interwar chaos and the second world war as well. Belgrade should be bombed again and again and maybe in a few decades of consistent bombing, the Serbs may be considered to have paid their debt to society.

I detect a double standard. I'm not going to use the word "Muslim" in my post because I don't want it to be too obvious.

Mr. Patel,
you mentioned "hell". What do you mean for it? How do you know there is hell? Do you assume that the readers of W.P are so naive?

More than one million died in Iraq due to invasion

http://web.mit.edu/humancostiraq/

please write about Gujarat also where women and children were burnt alive. more than 150000 muslims have been driven from their homes and more than 5000 brutually murdered

Eboo,
I'm wondering if you and your father feel the same kind of indignation about the killings and raping done by Muslims in Dafur.

Sir,

Muslim civilians massacre and blow up innocent civilians in the name of Islam every day.

Perhaps you should write a column on them too and tell us why it happens every day in almost all parts of the world?

Just another example of Bill Clinton's unfitness for office. While getting head, Rwanda and Bosnia were overrun by madmen preaching ethnic cleansing. America should be the world's policeman, as the strong should take care of those who can't take care of themselves.

Eboo,
First article of yours I have agreed with. But, it is not America's responsibility to police the world. I also appreciate your unreserved condemnation of the two Muslim thugs. Hope some crackpot doesn't try to harm you for your views.

Radovan Karadzic is no different than Ben Gurion, Dayan, Begin, Shamir, Sharon, and all the other terrorist founders of Israel.

He too was cleansing his homeland of untermenschen who had no right to live in his lebensraum. The Serbs were doing nothing--absolutely nothing--that the Zionist did not do to the Palestinians in 1947-48. Both the Serbs and Zionists based their claims on religion and history. Both said their god wanted the others out, by any means necessary. Both had the blessing of their respective religious establishments. Both had pseudo-historical claims to their "homeland." Both knew that they were entitled to use terror and mass murder to achieve their ends.

The only difference is that Radovan Karadzic lost. He did not have a powerful lobby backing him in the US. He did not have a massive propaganda machine convincing the public that the Bosnians weren't really there, that they were late comers, and that Serbs had always been in Bosnia. He did not have the ability to put the rest of the Western world on a guilt trip over a genocide. He did not have the ability to silence critics with smears of racism. He did not have a propaganda machine silencing the voices of the Bosnians. He was not able to demonize the Bosnians as terrorists when they fought back against the Serbs.

In other words, Radovan Karadzic lost. Had he won, he'd be just like all the Prime Ministers of Israel who have been welcomed throughout the Western world even though they had more blood of their hands that Radovan Karadzic could ever hope of getting.

If Radovan Karadzic is in hell, he has a lot of company from Israel.

I can understand the hatred. It's well deserved, but I'm sick of people accusing Americans of not being Superman as you just did when you called America that policeman who witnesses a rape and does nothing. Everytime we stick our necks out, we get accused of being bullies. If we stay in our places, then we're not doing enough. Which is it? And why does America get blamed all the time for other people's evil? Why not France? They didn't do anything. Why not Italy? They didn't do anything. Why not Egypt or Russia? They didn't do anything either. Why describe us as the world's police and then criminalize us when we actually assume the role. No police department has only one officer. Next time name some other countries.

"A thin line of rage entered my bloodstream when I saw the face of the murderer. It is a liquid my heart is unaccustomed to pumping. But there are few on Earth who deserve raw hate more richly than Radovan Karadzic... "

Yes, precicely, your prophet did the same to the Jews at Banu Qurayza, then at Khybar and countless other places. Blood boils reading these events of rapes and looting at the hands of the early muslims. Rememember the 17 year old wife of Kinana, Safaya whose tribe was wiped out? Blood boils doesn't it? Now you should get a feeling why we read Muslim posts of peace and justice and respond, our blood boils too.

Happy Friday!!!

Arif

Genocide has happened since human beings existed. It was in Rwanda in the last decade and currently in progress in darfur and tibet and xinjiang. bosnia and xinjiang the muslims were targeted. in darfur muslims are the culprits including aremenian genocide and for centuries in Indian subcontinent.

What about Ariel Sharon and David Ben Gurion? It seems like some "ethnic cleansers" are OK, and some are not, in the American world view. Why is that?

Eboo Patel,

Thank you, very good!

Everyone

I'd love to see Dr. Karadzic swinging at the end of a rope (after a fair trial, of course), but I fail to see why it was the duty of the United States to stop a European from murdering other Europeans. Too many American "policemen" have already lost their lives trying to settle the Europeans' quarrels.

Actually, one correction - Karadzic has more in common with Ayman Zawahiri, who used to be a pediatrician in Egypt before he became a terrorist.

I was pleased to find out that one of my former college classmates is involved in bringing the perpetrators of the Bosnian massacres to justice. I immediately thought of her when I heard that Karadzic had been captured. Frankly, I hope that this monster gets what he so richly deserves.

Eboo says:
“Karadzic has more in common with Al Qaeda’s Bin Laden and Zawahiri than he does with the vast majority of Serbs.”

He failed to mention that Bin Laden and Zawahiri are following the teachings of Quran and Hadith and consciously emulating his prophet. Wasn’t it not his prophet and his henchmen who cleansed the whole Arabian peninsula of Christians and Jews?

From Jewish History cited below:
“Mohammed's anger toward the Jews was not just rhetoric. The period from 622 C.E. until Mohammed's death in 632 C.E. was punctuated by periods of intense anti-Jewish violence as he systematically expelled, plundered and even slaughtered the Jewish tribes of Nadir, Khaybar and Banu Qurayza who lived in and around Mecca. Mohammed's victories of the Jews are discussed in great length in Sura 59 of the Koran.

http://www.aish.com/literacy/jewishhistory/Crash_Course_in_Jewish_History_Part_42_-_The_Ri...

Good thing the dude is behind bars and will face justice, but the fact that the Serbs were able to massacre thousands of Bosnians during the 90s demonstrates the futility of both the UN and NATO and of "diplomacy" in this case.

Shame on the Europeans! They have always pontificated the US against using force to get rid of madmen, but remained cowardly still while the bloodbath continued in their own backyard.