Arif2: Did you read this?

CAIR-LA WINS JUDGMENT AGAINST THEATER THAT CANCELED SCREENING - TOP

(ANAHEIM, CA, 10/27/08) The Greater Los Angeles Area Chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR-LA) announced today that it won a judgment against Starplex Cinemas, which cancelled a contract with the Muslim civil rights group after caving in to right-wing pressure three days before a scheduled screening of the documentary “USA vs. Al-Arian” in April of this year.

Right-wing groups demanded that the theater not screen the documentary, which highlights the injustices faced by former Florida professor Dr. Sami Al-Arian.

THE ANTI-MUSLIM AND ANTI-CHRISTIAN BIGOTS ARE BEING MONITORED CLOSELY.

"People in the West do not know about Hinduism. Now they do. Thanks to Deb Chatterji."

Funny one, did you know that People in the West did not know about Islam, now they do.Thanks to 9/11.
Also, People in the West did not know about the polygamous prophet of islam and his child bride, now they do thanks to 9/11.

Also, also, People in the West did not know about the war mongering looter of desert Arabia and his Jewish hatred, now they do, thanks to 9/11.

Deb Chatterji wrote:

"Islam admits polygamy. Quran [004:003] allows upto 4 wives. The law of the land (in UK) does not allow polygamy. Jewish laws in UK do not break the ban on polygamy that Sharia would allow."

******************************************************************************

Did you forget that Hindu god, Ram's father, Raja Dashrath had four wives and Ram's brother, Laxman was his step brother?

How many people know that in the Himalayan region, Hindus still practice polyandry? Polyandry is the system,in which a woman marries several men at the same time? Go to Dehradun where you will find the Khasas and koltas still practicing polyandry.

Polyandry is quite common in Tibet also.

Go to the State of Tamil Nadu where the Toda's also practice polyandry.

You can read all this in the book, Himalayan Polyandry, by D. N. Majumdar, a fellow Bengali of Deb Chatterji.

Hindu mythology allows polyandry. The legend says that Pandavas, the five brothers, went to the jungle hunting. There they found a girl. They brought her home. At the entrance, they called their mother, "Look what we brought". The mother was busy, so she yelled back, "whatever you got, share it." Hence polyandry.

People in the West do not know about Hinduism. Now they do. Thanks to Deb Chatterji.

Islamic doctrinal orthodoxy is barbaric. This is what happens in Afghanistan:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/10/26/afghanistan.attack.ap/index.html

Regarding UK, it does appear that Pakistani Muslims have never bothered to integrate there. The farce about Jews and Christians observing their own private laws in marriage etc., and then the justification to implement Sharia is baloney.

Islam admits polygamy. Quran [004:003] allows upto 4 wives. The law of the land (in UK) does not allow polygamy. Jewish laws in UK do not break the ban on polygamy that Sharia would allow.

More importantly while on the topic, wherever Muslims have gone and multiplied, they have always tried to overturn the existing laws of that state in favor of their own Sharia under the banner of "religious freedom". It is like Adolf Hitler using the democartic process to get elected and then only to eliminate democracy.

The question then is: will Obama recognize this as a issue and move towards limiting Muslim immigration to USA in favor of retaining the social and cultural facbric of USA as we know it ? Or, will this tsunami of liberalism eliminate each and every barrier to immigration to USA, and eventually convert USA to another badland ? UK is now in dire straits. It has now very strong Al-Qaeda presence there. In Birmingham one cannot understadn if we are in Karachi/Lahore or UK. Same in Denmark and elsewhere in Europe. This has happened simply because Europeans were liberals and sleeping while all this happened. Will this be the fate of USA too with Senator Obama's election to US Presidency ? How will he deal with Islamic facism (demand for Sharia laws be implemented and increased Muslim immigration) ???

Regardless of General Powell's endorsement, Senator Obama is a left leaning liberal - going by Newsweek's recent article by its editor Jon Meacham. What will happen when he becomes the US President ? Will he move with his liberal ideas regarding Islam only to eventually imperil the US culture ? This is one of the unknown factors about
Senator Barack Obama, which the voters must assess

Halozcel-

AS LONG AS THE LAW OF THE LAND IS UPHELD-

How you missed that is a mystery- but you seem inclined to missing the obvious.

All politics are local.

HINDU TERRORISM
logoimg
iconimg November 4, 2006
P Naveen, Hindustan Times
Email Author
Bhopal, October 27, 2008
First Published: 00:55 IST(27/10/2008)
Last Updated: 01:01 IST(27/10/2008)

Malegaon blast: Focus on new outfits

The arrest of two more people on Sunday for their alleged involvement in the Malegaon bomb blast of September 29 has brought the activities of a couple of little known Hindu radical organisations into sharp focus: the Rashtriya Jagran Manch and Abhinav Bharat.

The Maharashtra Anti Terrorist Squad (ATS) which is probing the blast, arrested Sameer Kulkarni from Bhopal and Sangram Singh from Indore, bringing the total number of arrests to seven. Both are office bearers of Abhinav Bharat.

ATS sources admitted that they had mistakenly named the ‘Hindu Jagran Manch’ as being under their scanner. They had actually meant the Rashtriya Jagran Manch.

Sadhvi Pragya Singh Thakur, the president of the Manch, has already been held for her alleged involvement in the blast. "Brochures we have collected indicate she is its president,” said an ATS source.

The ATS also raided Pragya's rented residence in Jabalpur on Sunday, but admitted to have found nothing incriminating.

Very little is known about either of these organisations as yet. The Rashtriya Jagran Manch (RJM) is said to have been formed after the July 3 communal riots in Indore this year in which eight people were killed.

The Abhinav Bharat was floated by five disgruntled saffron workers after their expulsion from the RSS. It started functioning in Madhya Pradesh from May 2008.

The name 'Abhinav Bharat' was inspired by the Veer Savarkar run pre-Independence Abhinav Bharat Society, sources close to the organisation said. It has held a number of meetings in recent months and launched a concerted membership drive.

The group had also been named following an attack on a Christian family in Jabalpur on August 3. Pastor Sam Oomen and his family were badly beaten up by a mob allegedly led by a vice president of Abhinav Bharati.

Police were also searching for Ramchandra Kalsangra - the brother of mobile seller Shivnarayan Singh Kalsangra, who is already under arrest - but failed to find him.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/Print.aspx?Id=557ca680-e02f-4901-b91a-857583718214
© Copyright 2007 Hindustan Times

halozcel1:

You have joined the club . Terrorism is terrorism regardless of where it occured and when it occured. Time is relative.

Grow up!

Astoria,

There is contrdiction in your post.
If the Law of England uphold,what do islamic marriage and divorce mean ?

-Law of England say *Marriage between one man and one woman*
-Bedouin Mentality says *Man can take four women*

-Law of England says *Divorce is only possible by court desicion*
-Desert Rules says *I divorce you,Get out*

Besides,the Jews in UK is very small and peaceful community,but submission followers/muslims are very aggressive,large and violence-inclined(tendency) men,so,
Can Jews in UK be an example for submission followers ? No,no.
Allowing muslims to use their shariah/ill-minded rules,inevitability leads them to found/establish *state in state* or *dukedoms* in England.

HSNKHWJ,
All your samples are local ones and some of them very old.
We are talking about present and World-wide/global terror and there is only and only one Global Terror which threatens Civilization.
Everyone,on earth,knows what it is !

To Someone,
Of course,she is not a muslim.She pretents to be muslim.Dont you still understand who she is ?
Langley educated *true muslim*.

"To come on a thread where a man of honor such as Colin Powell is being applauded for declaring what is obvious to most...."

It is obvious to most that indeed Colin Powell is a great American. But while your misplaced euphoria about Powell's endorsement of a Muslim US President can bring honey to your ears and high hopes for Islam, it will not wash. I cannot see how majority Americans would accept a US President who is obligated to believe in Quran [009:029] that calls for subjugation of Jews and Christians.

Islam is a barbaric religion: General Colin Powell is trying to be politically correct.

To come on a thread where a man of honor such as Colin Powell is being applauded for declaring what is obvious to most-(unless blinded by fear and hatred) namely- that being a Muslim is a perfectly acceptable thing to be in America, just as being a Hindu, Jew, Buddhist, Pagan-
And try to make the point that Powell should be afraid, bigoted, and fearful, as you are Deb,
it senseless in the extreme.

As for Sharia in the UK- the Archbishop, similar to Colin Powell, actually- stated that, the Jews in UK have been using their supplemental (not mandated or superceding) court system of Beth Din for decades- and Muslims should be allowed to use their own sensitve approach to CIVIL matters such as marriage,divorce, and business dealings- AS LONG AS THE LAW OF THE LAND IS UPHELD-

Go peddle your alarmist fearmongering elsewhere Deb.

Deb Chatterji: That name is anonymous to most readers as any other name. No one demanded to know whether he was an atheist. He mentioned it himself because most Hindus who profess to be athiests are so disgusted with urine drinking, cow dung painting of homes etc etc. But then such individuals revert quickly to Hinduism when others point out the ills of Hinduism.

Yet, he keeps worrying about other people's (who post here) religion. The next he will ask for our social security numbers, credit card numbers, PERSONAL IDENTIFICATION (PIN) numbers etc. etc.

Many Jewish people of conscience have written in support of Muslims here. Many Christians here have written in support of the Dalits (the untouchables) of India. I could go on and on.

This guy is impossible! He can not swallow the fact that it is the message and not the messenger that is important to all of us.

Deb Chatterji wrote:

"Yes, all Muslims are not terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslims. "

****************************************************************

Another idiotic statement. Mahatma Gandhi was asasinated by a fanatic Hindu, Nathu Ram Godse.

Rajiva Gandhi was killed by a Hindu Tamil Suicide bomber.

Tamil Tigers have committed innumerable suicide bombings in Sri Lanka.

The Rajneeshi Hindus used bioterrorism as a weapon to stop locals in Oregon from voting in 1984.

Timothy McVeigh was a blue-eyed white Christian who committed a heinous act of bombing the federal building in Oklahoma City.

Three Hindu terrorists have been recently arrested in Indore, India for bombings in Gujarat and elsewhere. They did not hesitate to kill innocents just to blame Muslims.

Baruch Goldstein, the fanatic Jew, killed nearly
three dozen Muslim worshipers in a Jesrusalem mosque.

The Army of God fanatics bombed numerous abortion clinics in America.

In Northern Ireland Catholics and Protestants fought a 400 year old sectarian war.

The Basque separatists have been responsible for numerous bombings in Spain during the last 50 years or so.

This guy keeps confirming that he is an idiot.

Astoria wrote:

"You have bragged endlessly about your own brahmin birth- yes- it is a bit repulsive and backwards- "

Show me something as proof, perhaps ??

HSNKHWJ & Astoria:

My guess is that both of you are Muslims. Yes, I am an idiot because I should have understood, because my post about Sharia in UK appears to have hit a strong nerve with both of you. This can happen, in all probability, if both of you are Muslims. That's my guess. Again, you can shout your denials from the treetops, but other than believing your loud denials one cannot prove beyond a shadow of doubt that you are not Muslims. For one thing you guys don't use your real name like me on this blog.

Again, I assert that being a Muslim (and Senator Obama is NOT) it is difficult to accept that person as US President. A true Muslim owes allegiance to Islam first, and not to his/her country of birth. So, a US President who is Muslim by religion cannot uphold secular US Constitution or have Constitutional loyalty or show allegiance with Israel. That's what Colin Powell missed. He is being nice anyway about Muslims.

Yes, all Muslims are not terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslims.

Finally it is you who shoots the messenger and blame others for doing the same. That's an act of hypocrisy. In fact, the history of Islam is full of such acts of hatred. Such shooting the messenger has also divine sanction - read Quran [005:033].

Astoria and HSKNWJ

Are you both Muslims ?

Astoria:

Thank you, Astoria. The guy is an idiot. Any one who assigns labels like, "Try to educate yourself", or "Dalit pride" without knowing the individual personally has to be an idiot.

I am not a Dalit. The guy thinks that only a Dalit can speak on behalf of Dalits or only a Muslim can speak on behalf of Muslims.

The debate, in my view, is not personal. The point any one tries to make should be supported by historical or scientific facts. Personal opinions supported by logic can be relevant.

The best example is Colin Powell's statement of last Sunday.

This person does not understand that IT IS THE MESSAGE NOT THE MESSENGER THAT IS THE MOST RELEVANT THING. Of course, if the messenger is some one of high standing (like Colin Powell) that can help the argument.

World Religion News
http://www.wwrn.org/search.php

Actually India is one of the most religious countries in the world.

"Misplaced Dalit pride, perhaps ?"

Deb, that elitist garbage doesn't work in America.
To paraphrase Colin Powell-
So what if the HSNKHWJ is a Dalit?
Is this something one should be ashamed of?

You have bragged endlessly about your own brahmin birth- yes- it is a bit repulsive and backwards-

Now you 'cide' (cite) that you know alot of athesits.

Well, so what? You live in the UK. One of the LEAST religious countries on the planet.
The poster is talking about India.
Not the UK.

And your only defense- to the racism and sexism inherent in the laws of Manu is-

"that's none of your business even if it is true."

and

"are all true but truly irrelevant, as they are only anecdotal. I can cide an equal number of Hindus who are atheists..."

Now, I've watched you dole out the ugly racist filth for 2 years.
Clearly, you can dish it out- but don't even pretend to have the beginnings of a defense when it is directed at you.

While you admit freely- the criticisms are true-
it is, none of our business?

When will you realize your misplaced brahmin pride is a thing of the past, and rightly so?

Colin Powell's endorsement of Senator Barack Obama does not necessarily imply that Americans would endorse Muslim President. For one thing Barack Obama is NOT a Muslim. He has, technically, renounced his ancestral faith of Islam, and many in Pakistan have pontificated that if the Taliban somehow caught him then they would give Senator Obama two choices: convert to Islam or face decapitation. This is because the Taliban works with the barbaric laws of the Sharia which decrees death for apostacy.

Incidentally Archbishop Rowan Williams of Canterbury, England, surrendered/resigned to the fact that Sharia should be incorporated to accomodate the Muslims in UK. Following the above, there was a strong debate about the notion of compatibility of Sharia with the Liberal western policies. Well, guess what ? The main result of the debate is now out in the open: Sharia is incompatible with Human Rights. The news is available at the Times of India (ToI) link:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/World/Sharia_incompatible_with_human_right/articleshow/3638130.cms

Thus, this is the problem with Muslim president, because as a moral and religious Muslim, the Muslim president is expected to uphold Islamic values and jurisprudence first, and then live by the American Constitution second. Thus, I am not sure of the Constitutional loyalty that is expected by American citizens of a Muslim Ametrican US President. What could *probably* (?) be the first casualty if a Muslim American became the president ? The 1st Amendment of the US Coinstitution (Freedom of Speech and Expression). The Quran says this very clearly:

YUSUFALI: "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;" [Quran(005:033)].

Thus America shall cease to be a country where new ideas are born. Because new ideas come from challenging the existing authority. It is has been (falsely) stated that Islam ushered modern science. Wrong. Muslim scholars (such as Al-Tusi, Ibn Sina, Al-Khawarzimi, Al-Jabr, Al-Biruni, Omar Khayyam etc.) and others in the Baghdad school had indeed done research to progress science. However, there are many independently verifiable evidences from books that show whenever these scholars went with their research that challenged the authority, they were subdued/harassed or killed. The Quranic doctrine of Submission triumphed over all else. Is this the America one would like to see, if a Muslim American became the president of USA ?

Once again the Reality of It All-(for those eyes that have not seen)

4. Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/ plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/ mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds this muck and stench of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

Current crises:

The Sunni-Shiite blood feud and the warmongering, womanizing (11 wives), hallucinating founder.

5. Hinduism (from an online Hindu site) - "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centered and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’."

The caste/laborer system and cow worship/reverence are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism.

Current crises:

The caste system and cow worship/reverence.

6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."
"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life. e.g. Buddha by one legend was supposedly talking when he came out of his mother's womb.

Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations, embellishments, lies, and myths surrounding the founders and foundations of said rules of life.

HSNKHWJ wrote

"You are as juvenile as anybody can be. I can challenge you on education and not only match my education with yours and then exceed it. But it is neither you nor I are relevant here."

Misplaced Dalit pride, perhaps ?

What you have fulminated about Manu, caste, etc. are all true but truly irrelevant, as they are only anecdotal. I can cide an equal number of Hindus who are atheists, and don't care at all. Such citations don't establish anything at all since exceptions to your citations about Hindus exist in equal large numbers. Thus it is equally improbable that what you have written happens in real life.

The bottomline is that Christian cheaters are manipulating the Dalits in conversion. Hence they need to be opposed. Sometimes, unfortunately, that opposition manifests itself in violence. The guilty must be punished, and this includes the Christian Maoists who have killed Swami Lakshmanananda.

You fulminate about why Hindus are rat-worshipping, urine drinking. As I emphasized before, that's none of your business even if it is true. And, just as Reverend Pat Roberston chides Hindus for idolatory, so does a Hindu have equal rights to fuliminate about Christian missionaries and their work in India. In India Hindus are majority, and I I cannot see why the will of the majority against the conversion be derided. Can you go openly criticize the doctrines of Islam in a Muslim country ?

So, just pipe down and go back to your cave.

Back in the 1930's, the "liberal" media outlets supported the socialist Hitler and trashed the conservatives.

Today, the "liberal" media outlets support the socialist Obama and trash the conservatives.

But, here is the difference. Hitler came to power and Obama will not.

Anyway, the most disturbing thing is that the "liberal" (in fact, they are godless socialists) media outlets are in the tank of the party of hate, racism, slavery, intimidation, and violence -- the Democrats.

Setting the Record Straight (part 1)
http://www.freedomsjournalmagazine.com/blog/?p=207

The President Who Stole Christmas! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doChINcDTJU

The Antichrist Has Come! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7vh5LJjJhc

Deb Chatterji writes:

"Maybe you need to get some education on this subject before going ballistic."

*********************************************************************************

You are as juvenile as anybody can be. I can challenge you on education and not only match my education with yours and then exceed it. But it is neither you nor I are relevant here.

A Dalit can not enter a Hindu temple even today nor will a Dalit be allowed to marry a member of the upper caste. The marriage ceremony can be performed or presided only by a Brahmin.

Manu, the great Hindu philosopher, compared the Hindu caste system with different parts of the human body. Brahmans represent the head, the kshatriya represent the arms, the vaish represent the belly, and the Shudra the lower limbs. That philosophy determines the hierarchy of the caste system.

Hindu social structure and Hindu religious beliefs are in a seamless web. One can not separate one from the other

You can not fool the world with your scripture argument. You know that not many people have time to study them, and even if they did, they will find inconsistencies between them and what people actually practice.

India's big and small cities have mushrooming abortion clinics where female fetuses are routinely aborted by hundreds of thousands every year. The reason: People do not want female children so they may not have to pay dowry in their marriage.

This is creating an imbalance in the sex ratio of the younger generation.

Your argument that Hindus do not care about religion is a bunch of ballony. Hindus are probably as religious as any other people.

Let me emphasize that there are many many good Hindus who know that harping on the past and condemning others is not the right way. These good people, I have had personal experience in dealing with them, will reach out a helping hand and extend their cooperation to promote peace and prosperity.

But BJP, RSS, Bajrang Dal, Shiva Sena people are not such (good) people. It seems many followers of BJP are entrenched here in America.

Ancient conflicts should not determine contemporary relationships. It's as simple as that.

HSNKHWJ,

What exactly is "Hindu religion" ? How is it defined ?

The Hindu marriage act of 1950 is an assertion that Hindus don't give a crap about religion like Christians and Muslims. Hindu society and Hindu "religion" (?) ARE different. Hindu society is NOT ruled by Hindu religious dictates.

Hindu caste system, is a social phenomenon, and yes it does have a long history of racist overtones. Interestingly the holiest of the Hindu religious texts, Bhagavad Gita, explicitly condemns it. Read the English translation of the verses in Gita [16:16-20]. Thus despite such strong prohibitions, it exists because support for a caste-based society exists in the Rg Veda. Because Rd Veda precedes Gita, many people still cling to the old (Vedic) way of thinking. Yes, the caste system is "evil". But to eliminate caste system would be near impossible. People are different by nature and by their status. For example, you shall have a world of have and have-nots. If that is not true, then all our assumptions about poverty, illiteracy are false. Similarly some of us will be educated and brilliant. That creates distinction. But, it is quite foolish to wish away such differences. At the same time it is surely criminal to exploit the differences between human beings for social gains/profit.

Maybe you need to get some education on this subject before going ballistic.

JAILKHOSLA wrote:

That the Aryans came from outside is a myth that was invented by Europeans. Sure there has been a mixing of light and dark skinned people. My family has both white and black and in-between people. There was no ethnic cleansing such as the type that the pedolphile, slavemongering, murderous founder of Islam perpetrated on the Jews. he murdered half their population, stole their wealth and lands and threw them out of Arabia. Muslims should return to the Jews their lands."

*************************************************************

You are rewriting history and reinventing the wheel. This way you can invent your new "dharma".

Your family has diversity in skin color explains nothing. It simply means that there was hanky panky in between different ethnic groups during ancient times. Gene flow from one group to another group took place.

The Aryans invasion is a well documented fact. The Aryans spoke Indo-European family of languages. Translation: Today's, North Indian languages are derived from the Indo-European family.

Today's Tamil, Telgu, Malyalam, and Kanada are derived from the Dravidian family.

In your passion, you are willing to ignore well documented facts.

Hindu Caste System is evil. Face it, pal

I am a Muslim, but I strongly disagree with Colin Powell's viewpoint and comments about American Muslims. We all know that Muslims are a threat to Israel--- most want the Jewish homeland destroyed. Israel is our most important friend in the world, and we should all support the candidate who is the most Pro-Israel. I understand that the U.S. economy needs to be fixed, and that McCain does not consider the "economy" to be his strength. However, McCain/ Palin are staunch supporters of Israel. Since the Jews built this country, helped manage our economy/ media/ government for the past 50 years--- we owe it to Jews to vote: ISRAEL & USA FIRST. Vote McCain/ Palin

Volume 5, Book 59, Number 512:

Narrated Anas:

The Prophet offered the Fajr Prayer near Khaibar when it was still dark and then said, "Allahu-Akbar! Khaibar is destroyed, for whenever we approach a (hostile) nation (to fight), then evil will be the morning for those who have been warned." Then the inhabitants of Khaibar came out running on the roads. The Prophet had their warriors killed, their offspring and woman taken as slaves.

Fifteen year old Safiya was amongst the captives. Her husband had been killed that day the Apostle of Allah. She first came in the share of Dahya Alkali but later on she belonged to the Prophet and shared his bed. The Prophet was sixty. The Prophet made her manumission as her 'Mahr' when she agreed to become a Muslim.

Volume 5, Book 59, Number 505:

Merciful Muhammad and urine drinking

Narrated Anas:

Some people of the tribe of 'Ukl and 'Uraina arrived at Medina to meet the Prophet and embraced Islam and said, "O Allah's Prophet! We are the owners of milch livestock (i.e. bedouins) and not farmers (i.e. countrymen)." They found the climate of Medina unsuitable for them. So Allah's Apostle ordered that they should be provided with some milch camels and a shepherd and ordered them to go out of Medina and to drink the camels' milk and urine So they set out and when they reached Al-Harra, they reverted to Heathenism after embracing Islam.

When this news reached the Prophet, he sent some people in pursuit of them. (So they were caught and brought back to the Prophet ). The Prophet gave his orders in their concern. So their eyes were branded with pieces of iron and their hands and legs were cut off and they were left away in Harra till they died in that state of theirs. (See Hadith 234 Vol 1)

hsnkhwj

That the Aryans came from outside is a myth that was invented by Europeans. Sure there has been a mixing of light and dark skinned people. My family has both white and black and in-between people. There was no ethnic cleansing such as the type that the pedolphile, slavemongering, murderous founder of Islam perpetrated on the Jews. he murdered half their population, stole their wealth and lands and threw them out of Arabia. Muslims should return to the Jews their lands.

Here is the story of Asma bint Marwan

Asma bint Marwan was an Arab poetess with six young children. She was very popular with Arabs and was exposing Muhammad (PedoM) as a fake and fraud. pedoM had her murdered while she was sleeping with her children.

She had written:

I despise B. Malik and al-Nabit
and `Auf and B. al-Khazraj.
You obey a stranger who is none of yours,
Who is a fraud and lies about being a prophet
One not of Murad or Madhhij.
Do you expect good from him after the killing of your chiefs
Like a hungry man waiting for a cook's broth?
Is there no man of pride who would attack him by surprise

When PedoM heard what she had said he said, "Who will rid me of Marwan's daughter?" `Umayr b. `Adiy al-Khatmi who was with him heard him, and that very night he went to her house and killed her. In the morning he came to the Pedo and told him what he had done and he [Muhammad] said, "You have helped God and His apostle, O `Umayr!" When he asked if he would have to bear any evil consequences the apostle said, "Two goats won't butt their heads about her", so `Umayr went back to his people.

Now there was a great commotion among B. Khatma that day about the affair of bint [daughter of] Marwan. She had five sons, and when `Umayr went to them from the apostle he said, "I have killed bint Marwan, O sons of Khatma. Withstand me if you can; don't keep me waiting." That was the first day Islam became powerful among B. Khatma; before that those who were Muslims concealed the fact. The first of them to accept Islam was `Umayr b. `Adiy who was called the "Reader", and `Abdullah b. Aus and Khuzayma b. Thabit. The day after Bint Marwan was killed the men of B. Khatma became Muslims because they saw the power of Islam. Thus a murder of a poet and mother by PedoM became a cause celebre.

JAILKKHOSLA WROTE:

"Why dont Muslims return the lands that Muhammad stole from the Jews, half of Saudi Arabia."

*****************************************************************************

About 3,000 years ago, the Aryans from Asia Minor invaded India. At the time, India was a prosperous country. Its civilization, known as the Indus Valley Civilization, was advanced. Its people spoke the Dravidian family of languages (Tamil, Telgu, Malayalam, and Kanada). The civilization was not only prosperous but peaceful until these Aryans invaded. They killed millions of Dravidian speaking natives and subjugated them. They drove those people (the Dravidians) to the South where those Dravidian languages are spoken today.

It is at this time the caste system originated.
In the caste system, a person is born into the caste and belongs to that caste for life.

Social interaction with members of other castes are restricted. Members of one caste can not marry members of other castes.

The Dalits (the untouchables) are "polluting" to members of higher castes. Even the shadows of the untouchables is "polluting" to members of upper castes.

Cow is holy to them. That is why they drink cow urine, paint their homes with cow dung paste, and burn cow dung cakes for fuel.

The birth of a daughter is bad news in an upper caste Hindu family, because at the time of marriage, she has to be sent away with dowry. These Hindus burn alive the newly arrived daughter-in-law if she did not bring "enough" dowry. That way, the young man can get married again and get another set of dowry.

If the husband of a married woman dies, the widow is burned alive in a ceremony called Sati. Even young widows are burned alive.

It is because of such practices, the Dalits converted to Islam and are still converting to Christianity.

So, my counter question is" WHY DON'T THE UPPER CASTE HINDUS (THE ARYANS) RETURN THE LAND TO THE DRAVIDIANS?

HINDU TERRORISTS ARRESTED IN INDIA: REPORT CONFIRMED BY TIMES OF INDIA

Cops probing Hindu group's role in Malegaon, Modasa blasts
23 Oct 2008, 2032 hrs IST, PTI

MUMBAI: In a new twist to the blast at Malegaon in Maharashtra and Modasa in Gujarat during Ramzan on September 29, Maharashtra police on Thursday said it was investigating the alleged involvement of a Hindu right wing group in the blasts.

"All aspects of the matter are being investigated and we cannot say presently if a particular organisation is behind it," a senior Maharashtra police official said to a question if an Indore-based Hindu group was involved in the blasts.

Media reports on Thursday said suspects from a Indore-based Hindu extremist group known to have links to the BJP student wing Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad had been taken in for questioning by the Maharashtra police.

"We are investigating the matter currently and will share the details of investigations at the appropriate time," an ATS official said, without giving further details.

Home minister R R Patil and DGP A N Roy declined to comment on the issue.

Five persons were killed in the Malegaon blast while one was killed in Modasa. In both the cases, bombs were placed on motorcycles parked in crowded area to cause maximum human casualty.

Reports said investigators had tracked down the right wing group while investigating origins of the motorcycle used in the Malegaon blast. However, officials refused to confirm this.

hsnkhwj

It took thousnads of years for the caste system to solidify. It will take hundreds of years before it vanishes. White Christians still discriminate against blacks and remember Jesus never condemned slavery. Muhammad was a slave owner. Hinduism is not perfect but we do not claim, as Christians and Muslims do that our religion is perfect. If Christians are so good then why do they not return the lands they stole from the natives in the Americas , Australia and New Zealand?

Why dont Muslims return the lands that Muhammad stole from the Jews, half of Saudi Arabia.

But the real issue here is that of separatism. America and the rest of the west should learn from the Indian experiance.

Muslims are traitors and they will always be traitors as long as they practice Islam.

The US should ban all immigration from a select group of Muslim contries that I have listed, most prominently Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. This will be the most effective way to fight terrorism and separatism.

The essence of Hinduism is : Vasud Eve kutumbkahm.

All beings are one family.

Sarv Kalyanam Prtahm Dharmo.

the welfare of all is our prime obligation.

the rest is all bells and whistles.

The Hindu fanatic parties are fomenting trouble against the Christians and Muslims in India. They even commit acts of terrorism hoping that Muslims or Christians will be blamed. Here is the latest from Hindustan Times:

logoimg
iconimg November 4, 2006
Press Trust Of India
Indore/Mumbai, October 23, 2008
First Published: 19:15 IST(23/10/2008)
Last Updated: 19:43 IST(23/10/2008)

Police suspects Hindu extremist group for Malegaon blast, 3 picked up from Indore

Three persons from Indore were picked up by Maharashtra police and are being interrogated in Mumbai in connection with the Malegaon bomb blasts amid suspicions that Hindu extremist groups could be involved in the recent explosions in Malegaon and Modasa in Gujarat.

Top police sources said in Indore that in a very secret operation, Maharashtra police had taken three persons -- Shyam Lal, Dilip Nahar and Dharmendra Bairagi-- into custody from the city in Madhya Pradesh on October 19 in connection with a theft of a motorcycle for assisting in the probe into the explosions.

Later, they were taken to Mumbai where their interrogation was going on in connection with bomb blasts in Malegaon in Maharashtra, the sources said.

Maharashtra police suspects that the trio had stolen the motorcycle which was used for Malegaon blasts in which five persons were killed.

In Mumbai, Maharashtra police said they were still investigating the alleged involvement of Hindu right wing groups in the September 29 explosions in Malegaon in Maharashtra and Modasa. One person was killed in the Modasa attack. In both the incidents, bombs were placed on motorcycles parked in crowded area to cause maximum human casualty.

"We are investigating the matter currently and will share the details of investigations at the appropriate time," an Anti-Terrorism Squad(ATS) official said in Mumbai when asked to comment on press reports that a Hindu right wing group based in Indore was involved in carrying out the two blasts.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/Print.aspx?Id=19659f76-0c93-4f42-8ba3-81af82326d3b
© Copyright 2007 Hindustan Times
**********************************************************
The supporters of Hindu extremists (India's overseas Hindus) are present right here in America. They are not only supporting the BJP, RSS, etc financially but also doing their propaganda work. Hope the authorities will investigate them.

Jailkkhosla wrote:

"Unlike Christianity and Islam, Hinduism is a constantly improving religion. "

*********************************************************
False! India passed the Hindu Code Bill in the early 1950s. Which essentially bans the caste-based discrimination or such evil practices as the taking or giving of dowry in marriages.

Neither has changed. India's political system, including elections is caste based. Lallu Prasad Yadava, Mulayam Singh Yadav, Mayawati represent the low caste Hindus and are a force to reckon with. Universities and their governance and the political dynamics are caste based.

Dowry is still given and taken in marriages.

The caste system has modified itself but has not been eliminated, as you would like us to believe.

Raj Thackery was recently arrested and granted bail by the judiciary. His movement represents India's version of fascism. He wants all non-Maharashtrians to be expelled from Maharashtra. SOME CONSTANT IMPROVEMENT!...?

I can say a lot more on this subjects.

India's overseas Hindus support BJP and other fanatics because they despise low caste leaders like Mulayam Singh Yadava, Lallu Prasad Yadava, and Mayawati. These fanatics want to preserve the rule of the upper caste Hindus. Only BJP can deliver this.

Raising the issue of conversions or Muslims is their version of diversionary tactics.

observer12 :
abhab

Observer 12 had the gall to say:
2. The NT (sic) is fiction, ugly, bloody fiction.
In its name hundreds of millions have been slaughtered and continue to be. Filthy stuff.

If there is any filth in the NT it is the Pharisees, the Sadducees and the Publicans; the ones who refused the message of peace and shouted “let His blood be on us and on our children.
____________________________

A*hole,

My post was not addressed to you, but to a fellow Putz-like traveller of your vampire self. The NT is a bloody piece of garbage that imagines a deity so demented that he sends his "son" to earth to be bled to death.

Then in true cannibal fashion, his disgusting followers have ritualistically eaten his flesh and drunk his blood. Materially, they have bled the world dry, murdered hundreds of millions, and most recently, through their primitive arrogant greed sent us, that is, the human race into a world wide economic crisis.

Take you New Drekkament and shove it.

=============================================
Is this what First Secretary Obama describes as "hope and change"?

" DebChatterjee Author Profile Page:

HSKNHWJ,

Whether Hindus worship rats, Shiva's phallus, my ass or a tree is none of the business of the Bible thumping groupies. Whether Hindu society is compatible with UNHRC and other babbles, is also a matter of debate. It is the business of the Hindus and leave it that way. If Hindus drink cow urine, and suck hard on the king cobra's tail, thinking it will develop a golden horn on their foreheads, such is also is none of the business of the Christians cheaters who dupe the poor, illiterate Hindu dalits. If Dalits with their children want to convert to Christianity, there must be some process that has oversight in..."

***********************************************************

Interesting defiance, instead of acknowledging the need for reform and analyzing the true reasons for conversions of Dalits to Christianity.

Dalits want to get out of the oppressive Hindu caste system. Christianity offers them human equality and dignity, totally absent in Hindu society and its irrationality mentioned by you.

India is a signatory of HUMAN RIGHTS. Your BJP ideology negates the very essence of that commitment.

Hindu fanatics are as irrational as the Taliban or the right wing Christian fanatics.

Hindu fanatics of RSS, BAJRANG DAL, SHIVA SENA, BJP are essentially supported by Overseas Hindu fanatics. They want to take India back to the DARK AGES.

hsnkhwj

Unlike Christianity and Islam, Hinduism is a constantly improving religion. The Gita was an improvement upon the Vedas and the Upanishads were an improvement upon the Gita. Now the Indian Constitution has made all Hindus equal. Unfortunately the Constitution has retained Muslim women as a lower class because Islam requires that lower status for women. All Hindus, men and women have equal rights.

Regarding rat worship, no Hindu worships a rat. In the rat temple which only a few Hindus go to the worshippers belive that the rats are the abode of God , not that rats are God.

An anlogy is sweetness which resides in sugar and in syrups. But the sugar and syrup is not sweetness, but possess the quality of sweetness.

That is what makes Hinduism unique and the most superior religion.
We belive that Divinity exists in everything and a worshipper has the right to chose the medium in which Divinity resides. Hinduism thus confers the ultimate freedom of religion.

Unlike Christianity we are not stuck with a Jewish rabbi named Jesus whose fondness for prostitutes did not prevent his folowers from elevating him to Godhood. We believe Divinity resided in Jesus but Jesus was not Divinity Absolute. We call that Brahman.

I intend to vote a straight Democratic ticket. I'm still disturbed by the gumbayah that pours forth regarding Muslims in America. The goody two-shoes stuff from Colin Powell and others, it seems to me, trivializes a major issue. Of course, no individual should be judged by their religion, or the color of their skin. But that principle deals with Americans’ attitudes toward Muslims. It leaves unexamined Muslims’ attitudes toward basic American values. That is the missing piece of the puzzle. That is what I would like to hear more about.

And anecdotal evidence—like the departed Muslim American soldier—obscures rather than clarifies. Remember how some people snickered at Ronald Reagan and his host of anecdotes that supposedly revealed a great truth about some complex issue? Like the alleged welfare recipient who showed up to collect her welfare check driving a Cadillac? Well, aren’t Democrats now doing the same thing, when they get all warm and fuzzy inside hearing Gen. Powell’s anecdote about the young Muslim?

To get down to brass tacks: For years, I have been offering five questions that go to the core of the issue of how Muslims integrate into American society. I have posted them over and over again on discussion sites just like this one. Only a handful of Muslims have even bothered to respond, and none of their answers were really satisfactory. So here they are again, in an attempt to get a real dialogue going, sans anecdotes about either Americans’ mistreatment of Muslims—or Muslim loyalty to America.

I ask all Muslims what the most authoritative voices of Islam would say in answer to the five questions posed below. I am not asking for the opinion of individual Muslims—although, they are welcome to post them. I won’t to know what the most authoritative Islamic scholars are saying right now about these questions.

Here are the questions:
1.Does Islam allow for the separation of church and state?
2.Does Islam allow for the full legal equality of women?
3.Does Islam allow for religious pluralism? For example, if a Muslim male married a Christian female, would the husband and wife be able to say to their children, “We will attend the mosque on Friday and the church on Sunday and consider ourselves a bi-religious family. When each of you is 18 years old, you will be free to choose. You can continue of bilateral approach; or, you can choose one religion over the other; or, you can choose another religion altogether.”
4.What does Islam say (according to the above authoritative voices) should be the fate of heretics? For example, if a member of the Egyptian soccer team got up tomorrow morning and announced he was converting from Islam to Christianity and changing his name from Mohammad Ali to Cassius Clay, what do the authoritative voices of Islam say should be his fate?
5.Does Islam allow for the publication of a scholarly book alleging that Mohammad was a fraud?

(Alternatively, instead of posing the questions to the authoritative voices of Islam, you might ask your Muslim interlocutor to imagine the question was, “What would Islamic textbooks used in the teaching of Muslim students in America say in answer to the following questions?”)

What do Muslims believe the most authoritative voices of Islam would answer in reply to those five questions. Or what answers you would find in an Islamic textbook?

The answers to those questions will determine whether even orthodox Islam can be accommodated to a Western liberal, pluralistic society.

Draganović now resides in Hell along with all "good" Nazis.

CCNL'S RELATIVES. DOINGS THIS GENERATION OF CCNL'S FAMILY COMING SOON.

FROM WIKEPEDIA, CCNL'S FAVORITE.

Ratlines were systems of escape routes for Nazis and other fascists fleeing Europe at the end of World War II. These escape routes mainly led toward safe havens in South America, particularly Argentina, Paraguay, Brazil and Chile. Other destinations may have included the United States, Canada and the Middle East.

One ratline, made famous by the Frederick Forsyth thriller The Odessa File, was run by the ODESSA (Organisation der ehemaligen SS-Angehörigen; "The Organization of Former SS-Members") network organized by Otto Skorzeny. National governments and international institutions played a larger role than secret societies.[citation needed]

The Roman ratlines

Early efforts—Bishop Hudal
Catholic Bishop Alois Hudal was rector of the Pontificio Istituto Teutonico Santa Maria dell’Anima in Rome, a seminary for Austrian and German priests, and "Spiritual Director of the German People resident in Italy" [1]. After the end of the war in Italy, Hudal became active in ministering to German-speaking prisoners of war and internees then held in camps throughout Italy. In December 1944 the Vatican Secretariat of State received permission to appoint a representative to "visit the German-speaking civil internees in Italy", a job which was assigned to Hudal.

Hudal used this position to aid the escape of wanted Nazi war criminals, including Franz Stangl, commanding officer of Treblinka, Gustav Wagner, commanding officer of Sobibor, Alois Brunner, responsible for the Drancy internment camp near Paris and in charge of deportations in Slovakia to German concentration camps, and Adolf Eichmann [2] — a fact about which he was later unashamedly open. Some of these wanted men were being held in internment camps: generally without identity papers, they would be enrolled in camp registers under false names. Other Nazis were in hiding in Italy, and sought Hudal out as his role in assisting escapes became known on the Nazi grapevine [3]

In his memoirs Hudal said of his actions: I thank God that He [allowed me] to visit and comfort many victims in their prisons and concentration camps and to help them escape with false identity papers. [4]

He explained that in his eyes:

"The Allies' War against Germany was not a crusade, but the rivalry of economic complexes for whose victory they had been fighting. This so-called business ... used catchwords like democracy, race, religious liberty and Christianity as a bait for the masses. All these experiences were the reason why I felt duty bound after 1945 to devote my whole charitable work mainly to former National Socialists and Fascists, especially to so-called 'war criminals'."

According to Mark Aarons and John Loftus in their book Unholy Trinity [5], Hudal was the first Catholic priest to dedicate himself to establishing escape routes. Aarons and Loftus claim that Hudal provided the objects of his charity with money to help them escape, and more importantly with false papers including identity documents issued by the Vatican Refugee Organisation (Commissione Pontificia d'Assistenza).

These Vatican papers were not full passports, and not in themselves enough to gain passage overseas. They were, rather, the first stop in a paper trail—they could be used to obtain a displaced person passport from the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), which in turn could be used to apply for visas. In theory the ICRC would perform background checks on passport applicants, but in practice the word of a priest or particularly a bishop would be good enough. According to statements collected by Gitta Sereny from a senior official of the Rome branch of the ICRC [6], Hudal could also use his position as a bishop to request papers from the ICRC "made out according to his specifications". Sereny's sources also revealed an active illicit trade in stolen and forged ICRC papers in Rome at this time.

According to declassified US intelligence reports, Hudal was not the only priest helping Nazi escapees at this time. In the "La Vista report" declassified in 1984, Counter Intelligence Corps (CIC) operative Vincent La Vista told how he had easily arranged for two bogus Hungarian refugees to get false ICRC documents with the help of a letter from a Father Joseph Gallov. Gallov, who ran a Vatican sponsored charity for Hungarian refugees, asked no questions and wrote a letter to his "personal contact in the International Red Cross, who then issued the passports" [7].

The San Girolamo ratline
According to Aarons and Loftus, Hudal's private operation was small scale compared to what came later. The major Roman ratline was operated by a small, but influential network of Croatian priests, members of the Franciscan order, led by Father Krunoslav Draganović. Draganović organized a highly sophisticated chain, head-quartered at the San Girolamo degli Illirici Seminary College in Rome, but with links from Austria to the final embarcation point in the port of Genoa. The ratline initially focused on aiding members of the Croatian Ustashi fascist movement, most notably the Croat wartime dictator Ante Pavelic [8].

Priests active in the chain included: Fr. Vilim Cecelja, former Deputy Military Vicar to the Ustashi, based in Austria where many Ustashi and Nazi refugees remained in hiding; Fr. Dragutin Kamber, based at San Girolamo; Fr. Dominic Mandic, an official Vatican representative at San Girolamo and also "General Economist" or treasurer of the Franciscan order — who used this position to put the Franciscan press at the ratline's disposal; and Monsignor Karlo Petranovic, based in Genoa.

Cecelja would make contact with those in hiding in Austria, and help them across the border to Italy; Kamber, Mandic and Draganović would find them lodgings, often in the monastery itself, while they arranged documentation; finally Draganović would phone Petranovic in Genoa with the number of required berths on ships leaving for South America. (See below for the operation of the South American end.)

The operation of the Draganović ratline was an open secret amongst the intelligence and diplomatic community in Rome. As early as August 1945, Allied commanders in Rome were asking questions about the use of San Girolamo as a "haven" for Ustashi [9]. A year later, a US State Department report of 12 July 1946 lists nine war criminals, including Albanians and Montenegrins as well as Croats, plus others "not actually sheltered in the COLLEGIUM ILLIRICUM [i.e., San Girolamo degli Illirici] but who otherwise enjoy Church support and protection." [10] The British government was annoyed by the Vatican's shelter of Ustashi-Fascist. The envoy to the Holy See, Francis Osborne, asked Domenico Tardini, a high ranking Vatican official for a permission that would have allowed the British Military police to raid ex-territorial Vatican Institutions in Rome. Tardini granted no permission and denied that the church sheltered war criminals. In February 1947 CIC Special Agent Robert Clayton Mudd reported ten members of Pavelic's Ustashi cabinet living either in San Girolamo or in the Vatican itself. Mudd had infiltrated an agent into the monastery and confirmed that it was "honeycombed with cells of Ustashi operatives" guarded by "armed youths". Mudd also reported:

"It was further established that these Croats travel back and forth from the Vatican several times a week in a car with a chauffeur whose license plate bears the two initials CD, "Corpo Diplomatico". It issues forth from the Vatican and discharges its passengers inside the Monastery of San Geronimo . Subject to diplomatic immunity it is impossible to stop the car and discover who are its passengers."[11]

Mudd's conclusion was the following:

"DRAGANOVIC's sponsorship of these Croat Quislings definitely links him up with the plan of the Vatican to shield these ex-Ustashi nationalists until such time as they are able to procure for them the proper documents to enable them to go to South America. The Vatican, undoubtedly banking on the strong anti-Communist feelings of these men, is endeavoring to infiltrate them into South America in any way possible to counteract the spread of Red doctrine. It has been reliably reported, for example that Dr. VRANCIC has already gone to South America and that Ante PAVELIC and General KREN are scheduled for an early departure to South America through Spain. All these operations are said to have been negotiated by DRAGANOVIC because of his influence in the Vatican."

The existence of Draganović's ratline is admitted by the Vatican historian Fr. Robert Graham: "I've no doubt that Draganović was extremely active in syphoning off his Croatian Ustashi friends." However Graham insisted that Draganović was not officially sanctioned in this by his superiors: "Just because he's a priest doesn't mean he represents the Vatican. It was his own operation." [12]

On 4 occasions the Vatican intervened on behalf of interned Ustashi-prisoners. The Secretariat of State asked the U.K. and U.S. government to release Croatian POWs from British internment camps in Italy.

US intelligence gets involved
If at first US intelligence officers had been mere observers of the Draganović ratline, this was to change in the summer of 1947. A now declassified US Army intelligence report from 1950 sets out in detail the history of the people smuggling operation in the three years to follow.[13]

According to the report, from this point on US forces themselves had begun to use Draganović's established network to evacuate its own "visitors". As the report put it, these were "visitors who had been in the custody of the 430th CIC and completely processed in accordance with current directives and requirements, and whose continued residence in Austria constituted a security threat as well as a source of possible embarrassment to the Commanding General of USFA, since the Soviet Command had become aware that their presence in US Zone of Austria and in some instances had requested the return of these persons to Soviet custody."[14]

That is, these were suspected war criminals and Quislings from areas occupied by the Red Army—legally US Forces were obliged to hand them over for trial to the Soviets. They were reluctant to do this partly because fair trial could hardly be expected in Stalinist USSR (see Operation Keelhaul). The deal with Draganović involved getting the visitors to Rome: "Dragonovich handled all phases of the operation after the defectees arrived in Rome, such as the procurement of IRO Italian and South American documents, visas, stamps, arrangements for disposition, land or sea, and notification of resettlement committees in foreign lands."[15] US intelligence used these methods in order to get important Nazi scientists and military strategists, to the extent they had not already been claimed by the Soviet Union, to their own centres of military science in the US. Many Nazi scientists were employed by the US, retrieved in Operation Paperclip.

The Argentine Connection
See also: Juan Perón and the Jewish and German communities of Argentina

“ In Nuremberg at that time something was taking place that I personally considered a disgrace and an unfortunate lesson for the future of humanity. I became certain that the Argentine people also considered the Nuremberg process a disgrace, unworthy of the victors, who behaved as if they hadn't been victorious. Now we realize that they [the Allies] deserved to lose the war.
Argentine president Juan Perón on the Nuremberg Trials of Nazi war criminals.[16]
”

In his 2002 book The Real Odessa [16] Argentine researcher Uki Goñi used new access to the country's archives to show that Argentine diplomats and intelligence officers had, on Perón's instructions, vigorously encouraged Nazi and Fascist war criminals to make their home in Argentina. According to Goñi the Argentines not only collaborated with Draganović's ratline, they set up further ratlines of their own running through Scandinavia, Switzerland and Belgium.

According to Goñi, Argentina's first move into Nazi smuggling was in January 1946, when Argentine bishop Antonio Caggiano, bishop of Rosario and leader of the Argentine chapter of Catholic Action flew with Bishop Agustín Barrére to Rome where Caggiano was due to be anointed Cardinal. While in Rome the Argentine bishops met with French Cardinal Eugène Tisserant, where they passed on a message (recorded in Argentina's diplomatic archives) that "the Government of the Argentine Republic was willing to receive French persons, whose political attitude during the recent war would expose them, should they return to France, to harsh measures and private revenge."

Over the spring of 1946 a number of French war criminals, fascists and Vichy officials made it from Italy to Argentina in the same way: they were issued passports by the Rome ICRC office; these were then stamped with Argentine tourist visas (the need for health certificates and return tickets was waived on Caggiano's recommendation). The first documented case of a French war criminal arriving in Buenos Aires was Emile Dewoitine—later sentenced in absentia to 20 years hard labour. He sailed first class on the same ship back with Cardinal Caggiano [17]

Shortly after this Argentinian Nazi smuggling became institutionalised, according to Goñi, when Perón's new government of February 1946 appointed anthropologist Santiago Peralta as Immigration Commissioner and former Ribbentrop agent Ludwig Freude as his intelligence chief. Goñi argues that these two then set up a "rescue team" of secret service agents and immigration "advisors", many of whom were themselves European war-criminals, with Argentine citizenship and employment [18].

ODESSA and the Gehlen Org
Main article: ODESSA
The Italian and Argentinian ratlines have only been confirmed relatively recently, mainly due to research in recently declassified archives. Until the work of Aarons and Loftus, and of Uki Goñi (2002), a common view was that ex-Nazis themselves, organised in secret networks, ran the escape routes alone. The most famous such network is ODESSA (Organisation of former SS members), founded in 1946 according to Simon Wiesenthal, which included SS-Obersturmbannführer Otto Skorzeny and Sturmbannführer Alfred Naujocks and in Argentina, Rodolfo Freude. Alois Brunner, former commandant of Drancy internment camp near Paris, escaped to Rome then Syria by ODESSA (Brunner is thought to be the highest-ranking Nazi war criminal still alive as of 2007). Persons claiming to represent ODESSA claimed responsibility in a note for 9 July 1979 car bombing in France aimed at Nazi hunters Serge and Beate Klarsfeld. According to Paul Manning (1980), "eventually, over 10,000 former German military made it to South America along escape routes ODESSA and Deutsche Hilfsverein..." [19]

Simon Wiesenthal, who advised Frederick Forsyth on the novel/filmscript The Odessa File which brought the name to public attention, also names other Nazi escape organisations such as Spinne ("Spider") and Sechsgestirn ("Constellation of Six"). Wiesenthal describes these immediately after the war as Nazi cells based in areas of Austria where many Nazis had retreated and gone to ground. Wiesenthal claimed that the Odessa network shepherded escapees to the Catholic ratlines in Rome (although he mentions only Hudal, not Draganović); or through a second route through France and into Francoist Spain [20]

ODESSA was supported by the Gehlen Org, which employed many former Nazi party members, and was headed by Reinhard Gehlen, a former Nazi intelligence officer employed post-war by the CIA. The Gehlen Org became the nucleus of the BND German intelligence agency, directed by Reinhard Gehlen from its 1956 creation until 1968.[citation needed]

Vatican involvement
Main article: Class action suit against the Vatican Bank and others
It is accepted that Catholic priests, notably Hudal and Draganović, were actively involved in smuggling wanted war criminals. What is disputed is the extent to which their actions were sanctioned by higher authorities within the Church.

In his role as apostolic visitor to the imprisoned Croats, Draganović reported to Bishop Giovanni Battista Montini, then secretary in charge of 'extraordinary affairs' at the Vatican's Secretariat of State - he would later become Pope Paul VI. Some evidence that Montini was aware that a ratline investigation was involved has come out recently in a San Francisco courtroom where a class action suit of holocaust survivors against the Vatican Bank is currently underway. One witness in the trial is William Gowen, a former US Army intelligence agent stationed in Rome in the years after the war, charged with investigating the Draganović ratline. Gowen's testimony has not been officially published, but a copy was obtained by the Israeli newspaper Haaretz which printed an article in January 2006 accusing Montini based on Gowen's evidence [21]. According to the Haaretz article:

"I personally investigated Draganovic - who told me he was reporting to Montini", emphasized Gowen. Gowen related that at a certain stage Montini learned, apparently from the head of the OSS unit in Rome, James Angleton, who nurtured relations with Montini and the Vatican, of the investigation Gowen's unit was conducting. Montini complained about Gowen to his superiors and accused him of having violated the Vatican's immunity by having entered church buildings, such as the Croatian college, and conducting searches there. The aim of the complaint was to interfere with the investigation. In his testimony, Gowen also stated that Draganovic helped the Ustashe launder the stolen treasure with the help of the Vatican Bank: This money was used to fund its religious activities, but also to fund the escape of Ustashe leaders on the Rat Line.[21]

Involvement of world powers
There have also been allegations of collusion or active support by various governments for the ratlines. Accusations have been levelled against the United States government of acting through the Central Intelligence Agency to help smuggle Nazi scientists and officers to safety. Similar accusations have been made against the KGB.

Ratline escapees
Nazis and war criminals who escaped using ratlines include:

Adolf Eichmann
Franz Stangl
Gustav Wagner
Erich Priebke
Klaus Barbie
Edward Roschmann
Aribert Heim
Andrija Artuković
Ante Pavelić
Walter Rauff
Alois Brunner
Josef Mengele

[edit] See also
Ex-Nazi

[edit] Endnotes
^ Aarons and Loftus, Unholy Trinity: The Vatican, The Nazis, and the Swiss Bankers (St Martins Press 1991, revised 1998), p. 36
^ Michael Phayer, The Catholic Church and the Holocaust
^ Gitta Sereny Into That Darkness Picador 1977, p. 289. Her account comes from testimony of Nazi war criminals helped by Hudal, such as Franz Stangl, Commandant of Treblinka extermination camp.
^ Hudal Römische Tagebücher (English translation quoted in Aarons and Loftus, p. 37)
^ Aarons and Loftus, chap 2 'Bishop Hudal and the First Wave'
^ Gitta Sereny, op. cit., pp. 316-7
^ See Aarons and Loftus, pp. 43-5
^ # Aarons and Loftus, chapter 5 'Ratline'
^ Declassified US Army File: 'Rome Area Allied Command to the CIC', 8 August 1945 Published on the website of the Jasenovac Comittee of the Holy Assembly of Bishops of the Serbian Orthodox Church.
^ Declassified State Department File: 'Vatican Protection of Jugoslav War Criminals', 12 July 1946 Published on the website of the Jasenovac Comittee of the Holy Assembly of Bishops of the Serbian Orthodox Church.
^ Declassified CIA File: 'Background Report on Father Krunoslav Draganovic', 12 February 1947 Published on the website of the Jasenovac Comittee of the Holy Assembly of Bishops of the Serbian Orthodox Church.
^ Aarons and Loftus, p. 89
^ "History of the Italian Rat Line" (10 April 1950), document signed by "IB Operating Officer" Paul E. Lyon, 430th Counter Intelligence Corps (CIC), Headquarters of the US Forces in Austria [1].
^ Ibid.
^ Ibid.
^ a b From the 'Perón tapes' he recorded the year before his death, published in Yo, Domingo Perón, Luca de Tena et al.; this translation as quoted in Uki Goñi The Real Odessa: Smuggling the Nazis to Perón's Argentina, Granta (revised edition) 2003 p. 100
^ Uki Goñi, The Real Odessa: Smuggling the Nazis to Perón's Argentina, Granta (revised edition) 2003, pp. 96–8
^ Goñi ch. 8
^ Paul Manning, Martin Bormann: Nazi in Exile (Lyle Stuart, Inc., 1980, ISBN 0-8184-0309-8 (page 181)
^ Simon Wiesenthal Justice not Vengeance, George Weidenfeld & Nicolson 1989 - particularly chap. 6 'Odessa'.
^ a b 'Tied up in the Ratlines' by Yossi Melman, Haaretz, 17 January 2006

Bibliography
Mark Aarons and John Loftus, Unholy Trinity: The Vatican, The Nazis, and the Swiss Bankers, St Martins Press 1991 (revised 1998)
Gitta Sereny Into That Darkness, Picador 1977
Uki Goñi The Real Odessa: Smuggling the Nazis to Perón's Argentina, Granta (revised edition) 2003
Robert Graham and David Alvarez, Nothing Sacred: Nazi Espionage against the Vatican, 1939-1945, London: Frank Cass, 1998.
Simon Wiesenthal Justice not Vengeance, George Weidenfeld & Nicolson 1989
Gerald Steinacher The Cape of Last Hope: The Flight of Nazi War Criminals through Italy to South America, in: Klaus Eisterer, Günter Bischof (Ed.), Transatlantic Relations. Austria and Latin America in the 19th and 20th Century (Transatlantica 1) New Brunswick 2006, p. 203 – 224.
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratlines_(history)"
Categories: Yugoslavia during World War II | Nazism | Neo-Nazism

abhab

Observer 12 had the gall to say:
2. The NT (sic) is fiction, ugly, bloody fiction.
In its name hundreds of millions have been slaughtered and continue to be. Filthy stuff.

If there is any filth in the NT it is the Pharisees, the Sadducees and the Publicans; the ones who refused the message of peace and shouted “let His blood be on us and on our children.
____________________________

A*hole,

My post was not addressed to you, but to a fellow Putz-like traveller of your vampire self. The NT is a bloody piece of garbage that imagines a deity so demented that he sends his "son" to earth to be bled to death.

Then in true cannibal fashion, his disgusting followers have ritualistically eaten his flesh and drunk his blood. Materially, they have bled the world dry, murdered hundreds of millions, and most recently, through their primitive arrogant greed sent us, that is, the human race into a world wide economic crisis.

Take you New Drekkament and shove it.

Some "brush strokes" about Islam by Ayaan Hirsi Ali in her autobiography, "Infidel":

"Thus begins the extraordinary story of a woman born into a family of desert nomads, circumcised as a child, educated by radical imams in Kenya and Saudi Arabia, taught to believe that if
she uncovered her hair, terrible tragedies would ensue. It's a story that, with a few different twists, really could have led to a wretched life and a lonely death, as her grandmother warned. But instead, Hirsi Ali escaped -- and transformed herself into an internationally renowned spokeswoman for the rights of Muslim women."
ref: Washington Post book review.

four excerpts:

p. 47 paperback issue:

"Some of the Saudi women in our neighborhood were regularly

beaten by their husbands. You could hear them at night. Their

screams resounded across the courtyards. "No! Please! By

Allah!"

p.68:

"The Pakistanis were Muslims but they too had castes. The Untouchable girls, both Indian and Pakistani were darker skin. The others would not play with them because they were untouchable. We thought that was funny because of course they
were touchable: we touched them see? but also horrifying to think of yourself as untouchable, despicable to the human race."

p.309

"Between October 2004 and May 2005, eleven Muslim girls were killed by their families in just two regions (there are 20 regions in Holland). After that, people stopped telling me I was exaggerating."

p. 347

"The kind on thinking I saw in Saudi Arabia and among the Brotherhood of Kenya and Somalia, is incompatible with human rights and liberal values. It preserves the feudal mind-set based
on tribal concepts of honor and shame. It rests on self-deception, hyprocricy, and double standards. It relies on the technologial
advances of the West while pretending to ignore their origin in Western thinking. This mind-set makes the transition to modernity very painful for all who practice Islam".

More "brush strokes":

1) Assassination of Benazir Bhutto

2) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens killed, 1000’s injured

3) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, US Troops (3,385 combat 800 non-combat) and 88,373 – 96,466
Iraqi civilians killed, http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ and
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf

4) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.[2]

5) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.

6) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.

7) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.

8) UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.

More "brush strokes":

From Sir Salman Rushdie's book "Satanic Verses", p. 376, paperback issue - for those 1 billion Muslims to read as they are forbidden to purchase or read said book:

an excerpt:

The faithful lived by lawlessness, but in those years Mahound - or should one say the Archangel Gibreel? - should one say Al-Lah? - became obsessed by law.

Amid the palm-trees of the oasis Gibreel appeared to the Prophet and found himself spouting rules, rules, rules, until the faithful could scarcely bear the prospect of any more revelation, Salman said, rules about every damn thing, if a man farts let him turn his face to the wind, a rule
about which hand to use for the purpose of cleaning one's behind.

It was as if no aspect of human existence was to be left unregulated, free. The revelation - the recitation- told the faithful how much to eat, how deeply they should sleep, and which sexual
positions had received divine sanction, so that they leamed that sodomy and the missionary position were approved of by the archangel, whereas the forbidden postures included all those in which the female was on top.

Gibreel further listed the permitted and forbidden subjects of conversation, and earmarked the parts of the body which could not be scratched no matter how unbearably they might itch. He vetoed the consumption of prawns, those bizarre other-worldly creatures which no member of the faithful had ever seen, and required animals to be killed slowly, by bleeding, so that by experiencing their deaths to the full they
might arrive at an understanding of the meaning of their lives, for it is only at the moment of death that living creatures understand
that life has been real, and not a sort of dream.

And Gibreel the archangel specified the manner in which a man should be buried, and how his property should be divided, so that Salman the Persian got to wondering what manner of God this was that soundedso much like a businessman.

This was when he had the idea that
destroyed his faith, because he recalled that of course Mahound himself had been a businessman, and a damned successful one at that, a person to whom organization and rules came naturally, so
how excessively convenient it was that he should have come up with such a very businesslike archangel, who handed down the management decisions of this highly corporate, if noncorporeal, God."

More brush strokes- some infamous fatawa plural for fatwa:

"Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini in 1989 pronounced a death sentence on Salman Rushdie, the author of The Satanic Verses.

Yusuf al-Qaradawi released a fatwa on April 14th 2004, stating that the boycott of American and Israeli products was an obligation for all who are able.

Sheik Sadeq Abdallah bin Al-Majed, leader of the Muslim Brotherhood in Sudan, issued a fatwa that prohibits vaccination of children claiming it is a conspiracy of the Jews and Freemasons.[4][5]

Indian Muslim scholars issued a fatwa of death against Taslima Nasreen, an exiled controversial Bangladeshi writer. Majidulla Khan Farhad of Hyderabad-based Majlis Bachao Tehriq issued the fatwa at the Tipu Sultan mosque in Kolkata after Juma prayers as saying Taslima has defamed Islam and announced “unlimited financial reward” to anybody who would kill her. [6]

In 1998, Grand Ayatollah Sistani of Iraq, issued a fatwa prohibiting University of Virginia professor Abdulaziz Sachedina from ever again teaching Islam due in part to Sachedina's writings encouraging acceptance of religious pluralism in the Muslim world[7].

Osama bin Laden issued two fatwas—in 1996 and then again in 1998—that Muslims should kill civilians and military personnel from the United States and allied countries until they withdraw support for Israel and withdraw military forces from Islamic countries.[8][9]

In 2008, undercover reporting by a private TV channel in India showed several respected clerics demanding and receiving cash for issue of fatwas. In response, some were suspended from issuing fatwas and Indian Muslim leaders announced that they would create a new body that will monitor the issuing of fatwas in India.[10][11]

In 2008, a Pakistani religious leader issued a fatwa on President Asif Ali Zardari for "indecent gestures" toward Sarah Palin, U.S. Vice Presidential candidate."

HSKNHWJ,

Whether Hindus worship rats, Shiva's phallus, my ass or a tree is none of the business of the Bible thumping groupies. Whether Hindu society is compatible with UNHRC and other babbles, is also a matter of debate. It is the business of the Hindus and leave it that way. If Hindus drink cow urine, and suck hard on the king cobra's tail, thinking it will develop a golden horn on their foreheads, such is also is none of the business of the Christians cheaters who dupe the poor, illiterate Hindu dalits. If Dalits with their children want to convert to Christianity, there must be some process that has oversight into the conversion process. Presently Christian missionaries are in the cheating business in the sense that they are duping the poor and illiterate and their children as young as 5 year old to convert. This would shift the political dynamic of India and increase the number of Christians who would vote based on the interest of the Christian majority nations and the Vatican shall have enornmous power in dictating political affairs in India. That's backdoor entry of Christian theocracy. It needs to be stopped and we see violence because the original sinners (Christian missionaries) are simply crying hoarse over human rights. The UNHRC babble about "freedom of religion" assumes free will of an educated adult. An adult is generally recognized as 18 years of age. A 5 year old is not an adult and a poor, impoverished, uneducated Dalit even if he is an adult cannot exercise his intellect appropriately as stipulated in the UNHRC.

Deb Chatterji:

Here is some more on Rat worship in India as opposed to rat eating:

The other side of this story is the esteem in which rats are held by the upper caste Hindus. Mark Moxon, in his travelogue of June 27, 1998, found a temple in Bikaner in the State of Rajasthan that is a special place for rats.


In the city of Deshnoke is the Karni Mata Temple. There, the rats are held to be destined for reincarnation as Sadhus ( Hindu holy men). The attending priests feed milk and grain, of which the pilgrims also partake, to the animals. Eating food that has been touched by the animals is considered a blessing from god. In Hindu mythology, a rat is the vehicle of elephant-headed god, Ganesha.

India is world's largest democracy. It is an interesting country. We read so much about economic progress there. Unfortunately, thousands of years old caste system is still intact. India's most overseas Hindus have supported the right wing Hindu Janta Party which is controlled by the high castes. Their anti-monotheism proclivity is self-destructive.

These overseas BJP supporters never concede that there is a need for reform. India could use their skills. They seem to be not interested.

Deb Chatterji:

Here is a good example of the conditions under which a non-Hindu Dalit community lives:

One more bizarre practice in the Hindu social inequality for life and the caste system is the practice of eating rats by the low caste Hindus.

In an article titled, " Requiem for the Rat Eaters" published in the magazine, Asia (Vol. 150, No.16, October 20, 1997), the practice of rat eating among the low caste Hindus is discussed at length. Here are some interesting excerpts:

On the vast social ladder that is India, no one sits on a lower rung than the Musahars. Like other sub-castes, theirs is both an inherited place in society and an occupation: the Musahars are fieldworkers, and one of their special skills is ridding croplands of predators such as snails and, most often, rodents. Poorest of the poor, they are known for their habit of eating their prey: in the Hindi language, mus means rat, and ahar food. India's rat-eating Musahars, concentrated in the backward state of Bihar, number 2 million.


Some Musahars have drifted into other occupations, such as construction work, but the vast majority subsist as their ancestors did. Decades of affirmative action programs may have buoyed other Dalit (untouchable) groups, but opportunities have yet to sink to the bottom of the social pyramid. A.K. Biswas, a state bureaucrat in Bihar who has written about the group, says he has never come across a Musahar doctor, lawyer or engineer. "They are very hardworking and dependable," says Biswas, but he notes that few ever escape the rat-infested fields.


The humble Musahars eagerly tell visitors of the one time they made a mark in Indian history: during a plague in the late 19th century, the British administration called on their expertise to help rid cities of rats. And they take hope in the small number of their own who have made names for themselves.


It appears that rat eating among the Hindus is not confined to the State of Bihar. In an article titled, "Rat eating in Tamil Nadu is not due to poverty" published in the Times of India of Aug. 19, 2003, it was reported that the Tamil Nadu government told the Supreme Court that it was common for laborers in the Thanjavur area to eat “robust rats’’ but their eating habits were not due to starvation.

Replying to allegations made by MP Ashwini Kumar in a public interest litigation, the Jayalalithaa (the then Chief Minister) government’s affidavit said: “Before water is let out in the Cauvery river and canals, farmers usually ferret out field rats in the ridges of the fields and while doing so, it is common for the laborers to select robust rats for cooking after removing the skin during the rainy season and during summer.’’

Barry referred to his muslim faith while talking with Georgie Porgie Stepalloverus. While Porgie quickly made an issue out of it by correcting him (can't you just hear Bubba in Georgie's earpiece), it sounds pretty genuine. But hey, why trust a clinger when you have the statement of gadfly Ghadafi.

Observer 12 had the gall to say:
2. The NT (sic) is fiction, ugly, bloody fiction.
In its name hundreds of millions have been slaughtered and continue to be. Filthy stuff.

If there is any filth in the NT it is the Pharisees, the Sadducees and the Publicans; the ones who refused the message of peace and shouted “let His blood be on us and on our children.

Deb Chatterji:

The very first article of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states:

"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."

My question to Deb Chatterji and his ilk is: In Hindu society, are all human beings born free and equal in dignity and rights? Is Hinduism compatible with the very first Article of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights?

In India, Hindus have been an oppressive force against Dalits (the untouchables), Christians and other minorities. A primary force of conversions is the unbearable conditions of the Dalits (untouchables). The Hindu caste system is the most evil system humans invented. The Dalits want to get out of the clutches of the Upper caste Hindus. That is why conversions take place.

Deb Chatterji's last name signifies his caste, which is Chattopadhyay. Obviously, he can not accept the ills of Hinduism.

HSNKHWJ wrote:

" John, an independent worker, runs three schools for children. He was accused of converting 11 children between the ages of 5 and 10 who were residing in his school-cum-children’s home at Sunder Nagar Extension in Indore."

How can children between 5 and 10 define their spiritual orientations ? What next ? We shall hear newborns professing allegiance to the Pope at Vatican ! How can such young children be knowledgeable to willingly convert ? Obviously enticements were used like food, toys, movies and in some extreme cases - sex. Nothing spared.

Surely the evil machinations of fundamentalist Christian proselytizers are work. This precisely shows why violence in India against Christians is rising, and shall unfortunately rise.

Christian Arrested Under Anti-Conversion Law in India

Hindu extremists accuse children’s home operator of converting 11 children
– A Christian worker is in jail in Indore, in the north-central state of Madhya Pradesh, after authorities arrested him on October 7 for “converting young children from poor Hindu families to Christianity.”

Indore police arrested Sunny John under the state anti-conversion law after members of the Dharma Raksha Samiti (DRS or Religious Protection Committee), a Hindu extremist group, surrounded the Heera Nagar police station protesting “conversions” on October 7, reported the Pioneer, a national daily.

John, an independent worker, runs three schools for children. He was accused of converting 11 children between the ages of 5 and 10 who were residing in his school-cum-children’s home at Sunder Nagar Extension in Indore.

“The complainants, Mr. Mansingh Patil and others, have alleged that John was converting children to Christianity,” D.P.S. Pariyar, police inspector of the Heera Nagar Police Station, told Compass. “John’s bank account also shows that he received foreign money.”

Indira Iyengar, member of the State Minorities Commission questioned the arrest, noting that none of the children had converted to Christianity or complained of attempted conversion.

“It means that anyone from the Hindu extremist groups can easily make allegations and pressure the police to arrest a member of the Christian minority community,” she said. “The administration is cheating the Christian community.”

John was simply providing food and education to children from low-income families, Iyengar said. “This is a case of social policing, which is disturbing,” she added.

The police registered the case under Sections 3, 4 and 5 of the Dharma Swatantraya Adhiniyam (Freedom of Religion Act) of 1968.

Section 3 of the Freedom of Religion Act states, “No person shall convert or attempt to convert, either directly or otherwise, any person from one religious faith to another by the use of force or by allurement or by any fraudulent means nor shall any person abet such conversion.”

Section 4 says that thus attempting to convert a minor can be punished with up to two years in prison and a fine of up to 10,000 rupees (approximately $235).

Section 5 requires a “religious priest” who takes part in a “ceremony necessary for conversion” to send word of the conversion to the district administration. If religious officials fail to do so, they can be imprisoned up to one year and/or fined up to 1,000 rupees (about $25).
According to Section 3 (1) of the Dharma Swatantraya rules of 1969, a “conversion” is to be reported to the administration “within seven days.”

The 11 children who were studying in John’s school told the Hindustan Times newspaper that John had been teaching them and providing them food daily. They denied that any foreigner visited them.

The newspaper also said that all the children had been taught prayers about Lord Jesus and were shown Christian cassettes. “However, none of them wore any cross or had any other overt signs of being Christians,” it reported.

John denied to the newspaper that he had converted any of the children. He said that he and his family ran three schools under the names of Rewa Mission School at Sunder Nagar Extension, Ghata Billod and Vishwas Nagar in Pithampur.

The newspaper quoted members of the DRS as saying that John was not a man of good character. They also accused him of having an affair with the wife of another man and for killing him.
Police, however, told the newspaper that such allegations were “unsubstantiated.”

A Christian couple, Jagdish and Grace Nayak, had earlier been arrested on charges of attempted forced conversion leveled by members of the DRS in Indore in July. (See Compass Direct, “Indian Couple Arrested for Attempted Forced Conversion,” August 4.)

On August 21, the Nayaks, including their 2-year-old child, were attacked by a mob of Hindu extremists. (See Compass Direct, “Mob Attacks Prayer Meeting in Madhya Pradesh, India,” August 29.)

Copyright © 2005 International Christian Response hmk 3pm mm xhtml css txp bau

Mustafa aka Marc Edward defends his prophet thus:
"warmongering"
“Wrong again. He took Mecca peacefully”
Moi:
How about Medina. Khaibar, Tabook, Uhud, etc. Did he take those peacefully also?

"greedy"
“Nope, he preached giving to the poor, not accumulating wealth“
Moi:.
Are you kidding? Forget the wealth he inherited from Khadija. What about the loot he got from the Jews of Medina, Khaibar and the pagans of Hudaibia? Did he not allot 50% of all that looted properties to his personal use and which his daughter inherited after him?
The Koran, Surah 33, places the imprimatur of Allah on the Arabian Holocaust: ?Some you slew and others you took captive. He [Allah] made you masters of their [the Jews'] land, their houses and their goods, and of yet another land [Khaibar] on which you had never set foot before. Truly, Allah has power over all things?

"lust-filled"
“No evidence what so ever. His first marriage lasted a long time with no reports of womanizing.”
Moi;
Yes because she controlled the purse. See what happened after she died. He began collecting women like I used to collect stamps . Is it not he who declared that his three pleasures were women, food and perfume?

"Wrong again. He took Mecca peacefully."

What about Madinah (Yathrib) ? How about slaughter of Asma-bint-Marwan, Abu Afak, Ka'ab bin Ashra'af - because they dared to oppose his doctrines and policies ?

CCNL

"As long as the Worst Book Ever Written aka the koran is the operating manual of Islam, Muslims of any stripe cannot be trusted.
To be fair, the OT is the Second Worst Book Ever Written
The NT has a small bit of wholesome history but 70%"

Moron,Putz,

1. There is no such thing as the OT (sic), except as it exists in your diseased mind. There is the TANAKH, a sacred text of a religion not yours.

2. The NT (sic) is fiction, ugly, bloody fiction.
In its name hundreds of millions have been slaughtered and continue to be. Filthy stuff.

Someone fulminated at Jai Khosla:

"The Hindus will turn against the West sooner than later. A lot of Hindu terrorist/extremist fund-raising outfits operate out of the West, especially the US, spreading a subversive faith in idolatry and mind-altering techniques among Westerners. This will undermine the civilization of the West in the long run. Who understands this?"

Well, the Hindus have their right to do whatever they want to provided they do not violate or infringe on US policies and "interests". That's none of Pope's business.

Regarding the unfortunate violence against Christians in Kandhamal, Orissa, this is indeed provoked by the cowardly acts of the Christian missionaries. These Christian missionaroes have abused time and again the secular hospitality of India. For example, they used deception and money to convert the poor. If the spiritual strength of the Christian doctrine was so strong and powerful why doesn't the elite and well-to-do in India get converted ? Hardly any conversions we hear are in the upper echelons of the Hindu society. The poor and impoverished get converted and in turn use the quota system to beat the average Joe.

The violence perpetrated by the Bajrang Dal and VHP are a manifestation of these converted Christians who have joined hands with the Maoists who have killed Swami Lakshmananda. What is so damn hypocritical is that Hindus have no right to express themselves and their collective identity like Muslims or Christians - just because they are the majority in India. So, the country's values would be dictated by the minority - as the West wants India to do ? Double Standards anyone ? And the Hindus won't resent if the West wants them to reject their own wishes and desires ? How would Americans feel if Hugo Chavez wanted the same for Americans - abandon capitalism and embrace socialism ? And why would Hindus in India have to submit to American wishes anyway ?

CCNL writes
"All Muslims demonize themselves via the history of Islam as seen in their founder, an illiterate"

Nope - you don't know what you're talking about. As a successful merchant it would have been impossible for Muhammed to be illiterate.

"hallucinating"

Thats possible.

"warmongering"

Wrong again. He took Mecca peacefully.

"greedy"

Nope, he preached giving to the poor, not accumulating wealth.

"lust-filled"

No evidence what so ever. His first marriage lasted a long time with no reports of womanizing.

"long-dead Arab"

Finally you get something right.
Certainly there is a danger from the Wahabbist(sp?) in Saudi Arabia who spread their intolorant and fundamentalist views all over the world, but they are one sect, they don't reflect the whole of Islam. They have nothing to do with the Shiia in Iran or the Suffis. They are gaining in influence, but we should deal with them at their source in SA. Painting all Muslims with a broad brush is just ignorant bigotry, and it stains everything else you post.

What US strategic planners do not realize is that the saffron clad (semiliterate and illiterate) sants (so-called saints) behind the Hindu extremist movement spearheaded by the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP), the Bajrang Dal and such outfits have a deep hatred of the US and the West, as much as the Islamic fundamentalists.

Sooner or later, the US and Europe is going to have to face Hindu terrorists operating out of their soil. Hinduism is violently opposed not only to Islam but also Christianity. The Hindu right wing extremists want to destroy the secular fabric of India, eliminate Muslims and turn Christians into second class citizens and take the country back into the medieval dark ages of Hinduism.

Much of this mad fervor comes from North India which is chockfull of illiterate idol worshipers now rallying under the militant banner of the god Ram. They seek to demonstrate their militant and violent intent by building a temple where the Babri Masjid (mosque) once stood in Ayodhya.

The mosque was razed by these extremists on December 6, 1996. Now the Hindu terrorists want to build the mosque. The communal conflagration unleashed in Gujarat in 2002 is but the beginning of the attempt by these extremist, fascist forces to impose a saffron code across modern India and take the land back to a caste-based, feudal set-up. (saffron is their holy color)

The West may be concerned about the strengths of Islam, but Hindu extremism is as backward looking and inimical towards the West as the mullahs are. Let the US beware in dealing on friendly terms with the Hindu terrorists for short-term gains against the Muslim world.

The Hindus will turn against the West sooner than later. A lot of Hindu terrorist/extremist fund-raising outfits operate out of the West, especially the US, spreading a subversive faith in idolatry and mind-altering techniques among Westerners. This will undermine the civilization of the West in the long run. Who understands this?

No, Jailkkhosla, these Hindus extremists are not some fringe groups. They are well organized and well funded fanatics supported and funded by overseas Hindus.

Hindus of India are known for urine-drinking, animal worshiping and bride-burning (alive)for the sake of dowry. They burn alive widows in the name of Sati, paint their homes with cow dung paste, burn cow dung cakes for fuel, worship snakes, and monkeys and when Christians object to these practices, they kill them and burn their churches. How stupid!

Once again:

All Muslims demonize themselves via the history of Islam as seen in their founder, an illiterate, hallucinating, warmongering, greedy and lust-filled, long-dead Arab. As long as the Worst Book Ever Written aka the koran is the operating manual of Islam, Muslims of any stripe cannot be trusted.

To be fair, the OT is the Second Worst Book Ever Written. It differs from the koran in being mostly fiction. The Ten Commandments are its only saving grace.

The NT has a small bit of wholesome history but 70% of the passages are embellishments added to create a deity out of a simple preacher man. There "ain't" many pages left once the
embellishments are removed. Said authentic passages would fill less than fifty pages making it simply a very short story of the life
of said simple preacher man.

Those who violate our Commandment-based laws for example by screaming "Kill OB" at JB rallies simply are lower than low class "red neckers" who now have their pictures recorded on FBI and Homeland Security tapes. Christians they ain't and they risk spending time in jail for making significant threats against our leaders.

Funny how if it is Hindu, Jai suddenly develops the awareness that fringe elements exist and are not representative of all Hindus-

And then goes on to continue providing unsubstantiated bigotry about Muslims.

Yet these boards stay flooded with anecdotal incidences about Muslims in other countries, and go uncontested and unremarked upon as anything other than what they are-

If people really want to stand up for America and it's plurality and icnlusioveness-
the place to start is wit hall of the very loud, very outspoken and unchecked Islamophobia we have seen, and are seeing right now on these boards.

One cannot rightfully say, it is wrong to discriminiate- to vilify, to disenfranchise and sideline my group-
but apply different tribal standards to Muslims and be seen as anything other than the basest hypocrisy.

I mean, hey. If I were from India, I'd be looking at how Evangelical Christianity has been essentially trying to tear America, that great pluralistic *hope* *apart,* and, yeah, I'd be inclined to be like, 'Hey, we've got enough potential problems here without you exporting *yours* into my neighborhood. '

Seriously.

Let's just try and focus on America right now, sports fan. If we can't sort *this* out, what someone does in India just isn't something we have any right to say boo about.

hsnkhwj

The acts of Hindu fringe elements if proven to be criminal must be punished. But the reach of these fringe groups have no support from mainstream Hindus.

But prior to independence and currently the the separatists in India had and have mainstream Muslim support. The reach is widespread and they will not rest unless India is partitioned one more time.

Dont forget Christians stole all the land from the natives in the Americas, Australia and New Zealand and until recently were massacring the natives. Christians also killed 6 million Jews in Europe with the support of Pope Pius.

The massacres of Jews by Muhammad, Islam's founder, are well documented.

"When I was driven from my home by an oppressor's hand,
I cut me sticks and greased me brogues and came oer to this land...
I found a home and sevral friends that I love dear
By jabbers I'll stick to them like bricks
As an Irish volunteer....
Then fill your glasses up, me boys, and drink a hearty cheer
To the land of our adoption, and the Irish volunteers!

"We love the land of Liberty,
Its laws we will revere,
But the divil take the nobility,
Says the Irish Volunteer."

-Irish song from the American Civil War.

Lest we forget what all this means.

" halozcel1

"Gypsy woman Janet aka Paganplace,"

Wow, what wellspring of stifled unconscious randomness gave you the notion my name is Janet? :)

"How should Liberty,Human Rights,Contemporary Values and Woman's Dignity be protected against those who absolutely wish and try to destroy them ?"

Well, I should think my idea of that would be clear to you by now, since I've been doing just that atcha all this time. :)

"Would you please write your opinion about women(you are a woman) who have no Liberty ?"

Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free.

That's Liberty's opinion, anyway. I'd get out of the way, if I were you.

As for Gypsies, I know some Roma people fair well, ...trust me, you couldn't live up to their standards.

I very rarely, if ever copy posts on different threads- but this sums it up.

General Powell has stimulated a much needed topic of discussion in America with his conscience driven words.
Just as there are disagreements in any community, Muslims also come in many different mindsets.
I am having a disagreement right now with a Muslim girl who is talking about the corrosive far left influence in America.
She actually validated her statement with a quote of the Moral Majority.

It was no different whatsoever than other conversations I have had in my life with judgemental, controlling, fundamentalists who spew stupidity.

The fact that she found more in common with the ideology of the christian right- than with a woman who shares her religion- proves just how ridiculous it is to make distinctions based solely on religious beliefs.

I'm not going to stop being American, and I'm not going to stop being a Muslim.

What planet are you really living on Halozcel?
Americans don't have your dysfunctional cultural prejudice of gypies.
You are making insults that are so far beyond our experiences here- that people don't even understand that you are being insulting-
Talk about clueless.

Marc, Marc, Marc,

The truth about Islam has not changed. However, one must be reminded repeatedly about the dangers of Islam so as not to lower our guard as we did on 9/11.

Gypsy woman Janet aka Paganplace,

How should Liberty,Human Rights,Contemporary Values and Woman's Dignity be protected against those who absolutely wish and try to destroy them ?

Would you please write your opinion about women(you are a woman) who have no Liberty ?

" Sidney3 Author Profile Page:

"ABHAB is right on. Like Communism, Islam is intolerant, violent and expansionist. It is a failed ideology."

So is McCarthyism. Not that you'd know it the way the GOP talks, these days.

"If Commies can be called bad names and banned, why not Islam?"

I think we should be asking why Commies and Muslims are your first concern, if it's really Liberty and America you love.

ABHAB is right on. Like Communism, Islam is intolerant, violent and expansionist. It is a failed ideology. If Commies can be called bad names and banned, why not Islam?

5 Muslims on trial for Ft. Dix terror plot.

An Afghan Muslim gets 20 years for checking the internet on women's rights.

An aid worker blown up because Muslims called her a missionary. Every day Muslims kill civilians by dozens in different parts of the world.

Mr. Powell asks:
"Is there something wrong with being a Muslim in this country?'’ The answer is 'No’

Mr. Powell is wrong again! First when he argued at the UN for the invasion of Iraq and now this.
There is plenty wrong in being a Muslim, especially in this country. The Muslim ideology runs counter to all the ideals of the American culture. Freedom of conscience and freedom of religion being at the top of the long list. The respect of human dignity with equality under the law for all, classes and genders, is sacrosanct in this land and Mr. Powell should know that.

Mr. Powel is apparently unaware of the fact that Muslim clergy and lobby organizations have an agenda that is not in the interest of anyone. Instead of aiding their members to assimilate and reap the fruits of an enlightened laws, are inciting for the replacement of the US Constitution with a foreign and a primitive ideology that proved its inappropriatness around the world and across the centuries.Until their leaders who are living amongst us openly condemn terrorism in all of its forms, and aid us in apprehending the Jihadists amongst them we are to assume they condone it.
If Mr. Powell’s rhetoric is merely an attempt on his part to help Obama, he should have found a more plausible argument.

semyaza :
CCNL :
"Mohammed[sic] was an illiterate"
born in the 6th century. Nearly everyone was illiterate.

Actually as a guy who led caravans and made a good living trading things, it's highly unlikely that Muhammed was illiterate. A book reader? Probably not, but he would have had to be able to read and write to keep track of things bought and sold.
BTW, CCNLs posts are mostly reprints of it's previous inflamatory posts (one guesses this is a person starved for attention). It rarely bothers to write anything new. You can read it's same posts word for word all over the OnFaith boards.

This is the same Mr. Bowell who stands guilty of a million innocent lives in Iraq in Gulf War I & II. This is the same Mr. Bowell who also argued for invading Iraq at UN ... Redemption is good for the sinner but forgetfulness of the victim[s] is a greater tragedy.

To Spiderman -- name calling in place of arguments is childish and intellectually dishonest. If you wish to make claims, other than that your spider sense allows you to understand writings that other people can't, provide some evidence to back up those claims. The idea that the virgin birth, for example, is historically factual when only 2 gospels mention them and they in fact contradict each other about significant historical points seems to form a pattern found throughout the bible. How were Mary's thoughts recorded when no one was around to "read her mind" demonstrates just how preposterous the claims of the bible are. Although I might add they are no more preposterous than you claiming to have extra human intuition enabling you to understand fictional stories that others can't. Could you have been bitten by a radioactive spider?

Put up some evidence if you've got any.

FURTHER RESPONSE TO VGJ AND JAILKKHOSLA:

The only proven incident of bioterrorism the U.S. has ever experienced, was a bizarre plot by the Rajneeshee Hindus, to steal a county election in Oregon in 1984. The Rajneeshees, followers of Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, a self-proclaimed guru exiled from India, had moved into a ranch in rural Wasco County, taken political control of the small nearby town of Antelope, and changed its name to Rajneesh. Next, the Hindus sought to run the whole county by winning the local election in 1984.

The amazing story of the Wasco County election scandal was revealed by Leslie L. Zaitz, an investigative reporter for The Oregonian, and Dr. John Livengood, an epidemiologist at the Centers for Disease Control. To win the county election, the Rajneeshee Hindus planned to sicken a good portion of the population in the town of The Dalles, where most Wasco County voters live. Their weapon of choice to keep local residents from voting was salmonella bacteria.

These Rajneeshi Hindus decided to test the use of salmonella and, if successful, to contaminate the entire water system of The Dalles on Election Day. First, these Hindus poisoned two visiting Wasco County commissioners on a hot day by plying them with refreshing drinks of cold water laced with salmonella.

Then, on a shopping trip to The Dalles, these Hindus sprinkled salmonella on produce in grocery stores "just for fun." According to reporter Zaitz, that experiment didn't get the results they wanted so the Rajneeshee Hindus proceeded to clandestinely sprinkle salmonella at the town's restaurant salad bars. Ten restaurants were hit and more than 700 people got sick.

VIOLENCE AND TERRORISM ARE NOT A MONOPOLY OF ANY ONE RELIGION. THERE IS A NEED FOR INTER-FAITH DIALOG.

RESPONSE TO VGJ AND JAILKKHOSLA:

Anti-Christian Violence on the Rise in India
New Report details politics behind extremist Hindu attacks

(London, September 30, 1999) – The Indian government has failed to prevent increasing violence against Christians and is exploiting communal tensions for political ends, Human Rights Watch charged in a report released today. The 37-page report, Politics by Other Means: Attacks Against Christians in India, details violence against Christians in the months ahead of the country's national parliamentary elections in September and October 1999, and in the months following electoral victory by the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party (Indian People's Party, known as the BJP) in the state of Gujarat.
Attacks against Christians throughout the country have increased significantly since the BJP began its rule at the center in March 1998. They include the killings of priests, the raping of nuns, and the physical destruction of Christian institutions, schools, churches, colleges, and cemeteries. Thousands of Christians have also been forced to convert to Hinduism. The report concludes that as with attacks against Muslims in 1992 and 1993, attacks against Christians are part of a concerted campaign of right-wing Hindu organizations, collectively called the sangh parivar, to promote and exploit communal clashes to increase their political power-base. The movement is supported at the local level by militant groups who operate with impunity.

"Christians are the new scapegoat in India's political battles," said Smita Narula, author of the report and researcher for the Asia division of Human Rights Watch. "Without immediate and decisive action by the government, communal tensions will continue to be exploited for political and economic ends."

The Hindu organizations most responsible for violence against Christians are the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (World Hindu Council, VHP), the Bajrang Dal, and the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (National Volunteer Corps, RSS). According to a former RSS member, these groups cannot be divorced from the ruling BJP party: "There is no difference between the BJP and RSS. BJP is the body. RSS is the soul, and the Bajrang Dal is the hands for beating."

A majority of the reported incidents of violence against Christians in 1998 occurred in Gujarat, the same year that the BJP came to power in the state. In April 1999, Human Rights Watch visited the Dangs district in Gujarat, site of a ten-day spate of violent and premeditated attacks on Christian communities and institutions between December 25, 1998, and January 3, 1999. The report documents patterns there that are representative of attacks across India. These include the role of sangh parivar organizations and the local media in promoting anti-Christian propaganda, the exploitation of communal differences to mask political and economic motives underlying the attacks, local and state government complicity in the attacks, and the failure of the central government to meet its constitutional and international obligations to protect minorities.

Jamuna Bhen, a thirty-year-old agricultural laborer in Dangs district, told Human Rights Watch, "The Hindus removed the ornamentation from our church on December 25 [1998]. They threatened us by saying that they will set the church house on fire. Then they started taking down the roof tiles…. There were one hundred to 200 people who came from other villages. They said, ‘We will burn everything.' We begged them not to. We said, ‘Don't do this,' and said we will become Hindu."

In January 1999, Australian missionary Graham Staines and his two sons were trapped in their car and burned alive in the state of Orissa, reportedly by Dara Singh, a local leader of the extremist group Bajrang Dal. On the eve of India's national parliamentary elections in September and October 1999, the situation for minorities in the state deteriorated significantly. In August 1999, Singh struck again, chopping off the arms of a Muslim trader before setting him on fire. One week later, Rev. Arul Doss was shot in the chest with an arrow and beaten to death by a group of unidentified assailants. The BJP charged the Congress-led state government with criminal negligence, while Congress sought to blame the incidents on the policies and activities of sangh parivar organizations. While communal tensions in the state were exploited by political parties on all sides, the main perpetrators of the attacks were still at large.

In a pattern similar to the response to organized violence against lower castes, the tendency is for local officials under pressure to arrest a few members, but not the leaders, of the groups involved. The communities affected represent some of the poorest in the country and include Dalits ("untouchables") and members of local tribal communities, many of whom convert to Christianity to escape abuses under India's caste system. In many cases, Christian institutions and individuals targeted were singled out for their role in promoting health, literacy, and economic independence among Dalit and tribal community members. A vested interest in keeping these communities in a state of economic dependency is a motivating factor in anti-Christian violence and propaganda.

Though eyewitnesses have identified politicians and local officials as participants in the attacks, the state administration and Hindu nationalist leaders continue to portray the incidents as actions instigated by minority communities. The chief minister of Gujarat and BJP spokesmen have even blamed the violence on an "international conspiracy" to defame the political party. The prime minister has called for a national debate on conversions, signaling tacit justification for the motives underlying the attacks. The central and state governments continue to ignore the recommendations of the National Commission for Minorities.

Human Rights Watch called on the Indian government to meet its constitutional and international obligations to ensure that religious minorities may equally enjoy freedom of conscience and the right to freely profess, practice, propagate and adopt religion. In particular, Indian officials should commit to taking steps to prevent further violence and end impunity for campaigns of violence and prosecute both state and private actors responsible for the attacks.
THE ATTACKS ON CHRISTIANS IN INDIA ARE CONTINUING THIS YEAR IN THE STATES OF ORISSA AND KARNATAKA.

Caliph

No need to hide behind links. Like mice, your type is always detectable. Why don't you just say what your racist self needs to say, P.I.G.?

I'll take it from there.

aka2

"It may seem odd to say this at a moment that capitalism has been humbled, but i still believe that democratic, capitalist countries will prevail in the end. Just as the world rejected socialism and central planning as the path to prosperity, so will our plural, secular democratic America ultimately will defeat political racism and political religionism."
_________________________________

Glad to hear it, AKA2, since you've already demonstrated that you're a racist on another thread. In fact this anti-racist had to demonstrate for you just wear racist ignorance will take your bigoted self. I thought I demonstrated it pretty well, didn't you?

Now, if you're cured of your filthy racism, if that's what this post means, glad to hear it. I'll be waiting to see specific evidence....

Ahbah:

The Jewish atheist from Iran spews:
“It never ceases to amaze me (at lest it hasn't yet) just what an extraordinary stream of filthy violent antagonistic tosh there is in the bible, especially when laid out in sharp relief as in the Fable of Christ.”

Correction; bible should be replaced by “Old Testament” and story of Christ by “New Testament.”
__________________________________
Ahhab:

Idolater from under the sea attributes to me words I've never said, aka, slander, etc.

But to comment on the Captain's comment:

Correction: There is no such thing as the "Old" (sic) Testament. There is only the Tanakh.

Would Cascioli have a better case against the existence of Gabriel and the other "pretty wingie messengers of God and Allah??? Absolutely!!!

He had an excellent case. See his web site. And if you don't believe him, light a candle for the flying spaghetti monster.

Mr. Patel, we in this country have always experienced bias and discrimination based upon religion. One need only look at the mass immigrations of the last century to see the effects of the bias and discrimination that existed in this country.
People of the Judaic Faith, were certainly discriminated against as far back as the founding of this country, even though there were members of the Jewish faith that signed the Declaration of Independence. The same for those who were of the Catholic faith.
During the mass immigration from the country of Ireland, the ensuing years brought the bias and discrimination out in force. There were signs in the windows of shops and factories, "No Irish Catholics need apply," this took place in the liberal Northeast. In the South it was much worse as the Ku Klux Klan, targeted African-American, Jewish-American, and Catholic-American, men women and children. The perpetrators of this bias and violence were among the leading members of society at that time, including some of the presidents, among them Calvin Coolidge.
Surely, we as Americans can outgrow the labels that divide us, if not this country is bound for ruin and "balkinization."
We will define ourselves by first declaring we are "Muslim-American, African-American, Irish-American, and so on and so on. When will we ever learn that the dream of Martin Luther King Jr. was not one on denying a man's heritage, but moving beyond labels to think of ourselves as Americans first and our cultural heritage second.

How about intolerance and violence committed by Muslims all over the world? Why are there 57 Islamic nations with no significant number of non-Muslims? Why no churches or bibles allwed in Saudi Arabia?Europenews.dk

Spiderman, Spiderman, Spiderman,

I do not wrestle with the existence of the simple preacher man i.e. Jesus. There is sufficient historic evidence that he lived and was crucified. There is no historic evidence that he rose from the dead. Check previous commentaries for references.

The Jewish atheist from Iran spews:
“It never ceases to amaze me (at lest it hasn't yet) just what an extraordinary stream of filthy violent antagonistic tosh there is in the bible, especially when laid out in sharp relief as in the Fable of Christ.”

Correction; bible should be replaced by “Old Testament” and story of Christ by “New Testament.”

Re:Powell
This is the man who boasted about ”Killing “ the Iraqi army. He is the same person who argued in the UN for the invasion of Iraq based on faulty and made-up “intelligence”. If Obama wishes to maintain his integrity vis-à-vis Iraq he should refuse this man’s endorsement.

There will always be some Muslims who may be truly loyal to America. But America, Canada, Mexico, Europe must learn from India and heed Santayana and learn from history, lest they repeat it.

Around the early 1900s the Muslim population of undivided India began to approach 25% and the separatist movement which was always there took on violent wings. Politicians belonging to the Congress part that was leading the independence movement were targeted and killed by goons paid by the Muslim League and generally even Muhammad Ali Jinnah kept quiet. The rest is history. The Muslims got their Pyara Pakistan ( beloved Pakistan) but the majority of Muslims in what is now India did not migrate there. These Muslims in in India were more passionate about Pakistan than the Muslims then living in the part that became Pakistan.

Today the population of Muslims in India is around 20% and the violence has begun. Indigenous Muslims are carrying out bombings. Not too long ago Muslims burned to death 59 Hindu women and children as they were returning from a pilgrimage. There is a well organized group of Muslims in India that have become experts in bomb making. Recently you will recall doctors of Indian origin were involved in carrying out terrorist acts in the UK.

Please learn from history before history gets you.

Stop all immigration from Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Yemen, Lebanon, Syria, Morocco, Algeria, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and Egypt as these countries still have active Muslim terrorist organizations that have widespread sympathy and empathy and financial support from the general populace. The immigration from India should also be carefully screened, may be even banned for some time.

It will be much cheaper this way than to invade Pakistan etc and try to democratize them. Afghanistan just sentenced a journalism student to 20 years of imprisonment for asking questions about women's rights in Islam and the USA is trying to rebuild this nation.

I agree with General Powell completely: so what if a person is Muslim? Islam at its best is an incredibly cool religion, and I would love to see more moderates in public office.

Thanks is owed to founder of this country’s constitution called USA and for those millions voters for whom if God is willing Obama can be next President as was Colin Powel Powell as head of most powerful army on earth.

Rest is below for future guide to future President of this country.

http://www.authorhouse.com/bookstore/ItemDetail~bookid~44552.aspx

http://www.authorhouse.com/bookstore/ItemDetail~bookid~55528.aspx

It may seem odd to say this at a moment that capitalism has been humbled, but i still believe that democratic, capitalist countries will prevail in the end. Just as the world rejected socialism and central planning as the path to prosperity, so will our plural, secular democratic America ultimately will defeat political racism and political religionism.

Divisions among the people can only advesely affect a country's economic potential and hurt its competitiveness. The core of our American ideals - freedom and equality - must become a source of strength in times of turmoil (such as in which we live). Gen. Powell's effort to cement the divisions among the people can only help unify Americans and make America stronger.

CCNL, If I were born 1000 years sometime in the future and read Einstein's Relativity Theory, I would instantly recognize the genius of the person. That would only happen if you can understand his writings.

The same is true with the Bible. Only those who can understand it along with its deep metaphors can see the POWER and genius of the author. One can easily conclude that it is a work of God and that Christ is God.

You are an idiot that is why you still wrestle about Christ's existence.

"Luigi Cascioli is an Italian atheist author. When Cascioli was younger he trained to become a Roman Catholic priest, but he left his training to become a pronounced atheist. He asserted that Jesus never existed, but was a fictionalisation of a historical "anti-Roman Jewish insurgent" called John of Gamala.[1] Cascioli's arguments for this hypothesis were presented in his book The Fable of Christ.

In response to this book, in 2002, a local priest, Father Enrico Righi, published a critique of Cascioli in a church newsletter[citation needed]. On September 13, 2002, Cascioli filed a lawsuit against the Catholic Church, and Father Righi in particular, for libel against him, and for promoting fraud by observing that the existence of Christ is historically factual.

Originally, the Italian judge threw out the case, but the Court of Appeal asserted that there was a genuine case to answer. On January 27, 2006, an Italian judge began taking initial hearings to decide whether the case should be allowed to come to court. On February 9, 2006, the judge again threw out the case and recommended an investigation of Cascioli for slander against Father Righi.

On March 20th, 2006, the case was re-evaluated,[2] and in July of that year Cascioli was fined by an Italian appeals court for bringing a fraudulent suit,[3] a prospect that Cascioli dismissed, saying proving the charge would still require Righi to prove Christ's existence.

The European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg had agreed to consider hearing the merits of the case, but the case was closed because the period for presenting the necessary documentation expired."

See Google for added information.

Would Cascioli have a better case against the existence of Gabriel and the other "pretty wingie messengers of God and Allah??? Absolutely!!!

The point that anyone has the right to governmental positions regardless of religions is one of the fundamental bases of this country and we've forgotten that. We as a nation still believe that only we and ours are suited to govern, and a lot still believe that the "others" need to be kept out of office (sadly many "secular" Atheists believe in this tenant as much as Evangelical neo-cons.)

It's a complete and total violation of Freedom of Religion and is in no way implied through the separation of church and state, also a fundamental basis of our country.

Part of the reason for the separation of church and state? It's not so that you people can bicker with each other "Your religion is wrong, Mohammad was a monster, Muslims are murderers, there is no Jesus, I'll never vote for you, wah wah wah!!!" It's so that one day we will have a Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, Pagan or even Atheist president.

I agree that there should be no reason for Colin Powell to say what he did. Sadly, however, for most of America this is a concept we cannot grasp, and every once in a while we need someone to beat it into us again.

I think 15 of the 18 people who were involved in 911 were all Saudi nationals. Who would have thought the the Saudis would do that? Saudi Arabia is considered an "American ally", isn't it not?

Powell is an IDIOT. You can't just easily take out the fear and suspicions from ordinary Americans after the 911 attack.

And guess what? It will happen again, albeit, on a LARGER scale.

The IDIOT just want to score points and blame everything including why he chosed to be a Republican for years until he met Palin. Where have you been Powell? Republicans are full of people like Sarah Palin, IDIOT.

CCNL:

"There was no Adam and Eve, no Noah, no Abraham, no Moses, no Joshua!!! Even many of the 1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis no longer believe the stories of the OT."

--

Next you're going to tell me that Jews don't believe in Jesus!
_______________________________
Nor Catholics. See my post below. Nor CCNL, who is an atheist.

"America is the great country because of its acceptance to the diversity of race, religion and culture."
......... unlike ALL Muslim countries! Powell is as naive about Muslims as he is about Obama!

CCNL:

"There was no Adam and Eve, no Noah, no Abraham, no Moses, no Joshua!!! Even many of the 1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis no longer believe the stories of the OT."

--

Next you're going to tell me that Jews don't believe in Jesus!

CCNL/Confused Croissant/Bagel/Donut/Mosquito

Just for you, and so very much more to come. :)

Luigi Cascioli - The Fable Of Christ

Postby Xavier on Sun Mar 11, 2007 10:06 am
I have just got Luigi Cascioli's book and I absolutely recommend it to everyone here.

The Fable Of Christ (subtitled "Book of Accusation" and "Irrefutable demonstration that Jesus never existed") really goes to town taking the bible's version of history apart and suggesting more plausible alternatives (i.e. ones backed up by some sort of independent evidence).

For those who know not, Luigi Cascioli is the hero who has sued the catholic church for misrepresentation - in Italy, no less - thanks to laws against " the abuse of popular credulity and the substitution of person (artt. 661 C.P. e 494 C.P)". The person is J.C. himself who, Cascioli alleges, has been knowingly misrepresented as a real person by the members of the church. The book is the distillation of his thesis.

The beauty of the lawsuit is the possibility of forcing the church types to face up to some of their most cherished contradictions. Key among them is whether they demand that they KNOW that Jesus existed and then have to defend against all the inconsistencies and implausibilities, to the standards of a court of law OR do they airily say that they merely have faith in his existence and then hope (and pray, presumably) that the law doesn't decide that faith is insufficient defence for the substitution of person, which would really put the catholics amongst the pigeons!

In truth, Cascioli tends to repeat himself quite a lot in the book and the fact that that it is translated from the Italian is noticable (also translated into French). He is also a cynic of Olympic standard and is sometimes quite brutal in his declarations; whilst the biblical versions are effectively demolished, his alternative history, though more plausible, is not well proven.

Nevertheless, I have been devouring the book. It never ceases to amaze me (at lest it hasn't yet) just what an extraordinary stream of filthy violent antagonistic tosh there is in the bible, especially when laid out in sharp relief as in the Fable of Christ.

You can get the book from [web]http://www.luigicascioli.it/acquista_eng.php[/web] but not, apparently, from any library in the USA (see the letter in the lower part of [web]http://www.luigicascioli.it/home_eng.php[/web]) or the British Library or Amazon.com

Xavier
Newbie

Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 10:26 pm
Location: Newcastle Upon Tyne

* Website

Solomon had 700 wives?? Simply more OT myth!!!

Get with the 21st century. There was no Adam and Eve, no Noah, no Abraham, no Moses, no Joshua!!! Even many of the 1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis no longer believe the stories of the OT.

www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

Unfortunately, there was an illiterate, warmongering, hallucinating, greed and lust filled, womanizing Arab named Mahound aka Mohammed!!!!

None of what Powell said should have been necessary since a candidate's religion or lack thereof is irrelevant to his candidacy.

That said, this is the man who sold his soul at the United Nations, who lied to the world about WMDs. His UN address was his meeting with destiny, an occasion for which he was unprepared.

I was most impressed by Powel's comments. The only way to stop moderate muslims to turn against the policies of west is to give equal rights to them. No religion teaches terror and no person should be profiled based on their religion. America is the great country because of its acceptance to the diversity of race, religion and culture. After 9/11 the way muslims are profiled, it made me worried that we are losing this essential value. Hearing Collin Powel gave me a reassurance that sincere people who love their country and humanity irrespective of race and religion are still there. It boosted my good hopes for this country. I sincerely believe that we need a lot of education about muslims in this country. People are unaware and ignorant in this area and they need to be educated so they can make informed and thoughtful decisions.

can a 7 year old kid raised in a family that isn't religious at all dream of being president?

Unlikely, unless that kid learns how to lie about it. The first Muslim president will be elected before the first atheist. The first gay president will be elected, the first lesbian ... the first pedophile president will be elected before the first atheist - as along as they all mouth some religious BS the same freaks who hate Muslims because they're not Christian will vote for a Muslim before they vote for an atheist.

I admire Powell for his holding to our American values above and beyond the call of duty. But I still don't see this as being truly inclusive.

n an appearance Sunday morning on NBC’s “Meet the Press,” Powell said in part:

“I'm also troubled by, not what Senator McCain says, but what members of the party say. And it is permitted to be said such things as, ‘Well, you know that Mr. Obama is a Muslim.’ Well, the correct answer is, he is not a Muslim, he's a Christian. He's always been a Christian. But the really right answer is, what if he is? Is there something wrong with being a Muslim in this country? The answer's no, that's not America. Is there something wrong with some seven-year-old Muslim-American kid believing that he or she could be president? Yet, I have heard senior members of my own party drop the suggestion, ‘He's a Muslim and he might be associated terrorists.’ This is not the way we should be doing it in America.”

Powell should be commended for his comments. HOW DOES IT MATTER IF A SEVEN YEAR OLD MUSLIM EXPRESSES HIS DESIRE TO BE THE PRESIDENT OF THE U.S.? No one said this before. Bigots like CCNL will always be there.

CCNL :

"Mohammed[sic] was an illiterate"

--

He was born in the 6th century. Nearly everyone was illiterate. In fact, the word "illiteracy" didn't even exist then. Only after the Industrial Revolution, with the advent of mass education, would such a word have any meaning.

P.S. Maybe Muhammad got carried away with his 11 wives. But before we judge him too harshly, let's recall that King Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines (for a grand total of 1,000 Special Ladies).

Why is Obama accepting Powell's endorsement. Isn't he part of Bush's cronies.

This is THE guy who presented the “lies” to the U.N. that brought us into this “illegal war.” Why would you want an endorsement from that guy?

Some have tried to make the case that Powell was forced to lie because of pressure from above (evil Dick Cheney, George Bush, Halliburton, the Carlyle Group, Aliens, etc) but wouldn’t that even be worse? A decorated general that puts office politics above soldiers lives?

Sure, you can say that some democrats, even those who were on key committees were “duped” (as ridiculous as that argument is)--but you can’t say that about Powell. He--by your definition--lied to get us into an illegal war.

In reality, I think Powell is a genuine hero, who acted honorably with the best information he had at the time. But you can’t have the “they lied, troops died” argument AND “the Colin Powell endorsement proves Obama has the experience and judgment to lead” argument. It’s one of the two.

By accepting Powell’s nod, democrats who made accusations about “lying” to get us into war are basically admitting they were wrong. Considering the endorsement is more directly valuable to their political gain today, I’d guess they’ll be happy with the trade off.

Despite what others may say, but to me, by endorsing Sen. Obama, General Colin Powell put the country first; before ideology, before party loyalty and before personal affiliations. He very clearly gave the reasons for his choice--Sen. McCain's bad judgment in suspending his campaign, his selection of Gov. Palin as the VP and the Republican Party’s politics of fear-mongering and divisiveness. If we are to remain a great Nation, we must elect a President who can bring us together and who can bring out the best in us. Between Sen. McCain and Sen. Obama, General Powell has chosen Sen. Obama as the candidate with the temperament and sensibilities required of the next President of our great country that is going through very difficult times. For General Powell's honesty, I salute him.

An update (or how we are spending or how we have spent the USA taxpayers’ money to eliminate global terror and aggression)
The terror and aggression via a Partial and Recent Body Count

1) Assassination of Benazir Bhutto

2) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens, 1000’s injured

3) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, US Troops (3,385 combat 800 non-combat) and 88,373 – 96,466
Iraqi civilians, http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ and
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf

4) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.[2]

5) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.

6) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.

7) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.

8) UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.

Other elements of our War on Terror:

1. Saddam, his sons and major henchmen have been deleted. Saddam's bravado about WMD was one of his major mistakes.

2. Iran is being been contained. (beside containing the Sunni-Shiite civil war in Baghdad, that is the main reason we are in Iraq. And yes, essential oil continues to flow from the region.)

3. Libya has become almost civil. Apparently this new reality from an Islamic country has upset OBL and his “crazies” as they recently threatened Libya. OBL sure is a disgrace to the world especially the Moslem world!!!

4. North Korea is still uncivil but is contained. With the opening up of rail traffic between North and South Korea after 50 years and with the assistance of the US Navy in retrieving NK ships and personnel hopefully a fresh sense of civility is afoot.

5. North Korea was taken of the terrorist country list last week.

6. Northern Ireland is finally at peace.

7. The Jews and Palestinians are being separated by walls. Hopefully the walls will follow the 1948 UN accords and the Annapolis Peace Conference is at least somewhat successful.

8. Bin Laden has been cornered under a rock in Western Pakistan since 9/11.

9. Fanatical Islam has basically been contained to the Middle East but a wall between India and Pakistan would be a plus for world peace. Ditto for a wall between Afghahistan and Pakistan.

10. 9.Timothy McVeigh was executed. Terry Nichols will follow soon.

11. Eric Rudolph is spending three life terms in prison with no parole.

12. Jim Jones, David Koresh, Kaczynski, the "nuns" from Rwanda, and the KKK were all dealt with and either eliminated themselves or are being punished.

13. Islamic Sudan, Darfur and Somalia are still terror hot spots.

14. The terror and torture of Muslims in Bosnia, Kosovo and Kuwait were ended by the proper application of the military forces of the USA and her freedom-loving friends. Radovan Karadzic was finally captured on 7/23/08 and is charged with genocide, crimes against humanity and violations of the law of war -- charges related to the 1992-1995 civil war that followed Bosnia-Herzegovina's secession from Yugoslavia.

15. And of course the bloody terror brought about the Japanese, Nazis and Communists was with great difficulty eliminated by the good guys.

I was actually shamed by Colin Powell when he spoke out about these things. I was ashamed because as someone who considers herself Christian and a woman of good moral character, it never occured to me to be offended by how margenalizing the comments being made about Obama being Muslim are to actual Muslim people. I am also an African American. I know what it feels like to be stereotyped and margenalized. No, I don't agree with the religion of Islam. Not at all, but that is my freedom of choice. In America they have that same freedom. No more then all Christians are good people are all Muslim's bad people or any other religious group out there. As a Christian, I know Christ, Himself, would not want that. And as a everyday person, I don't want that. Far be it from anyone to disallow the growth and maturity of anyone based on the faith they've been raised in or have chosen. Muslim does not equal terrorist, but hate speech spurs violence against innocent people and against nations and it also breeds more ignorance in already intolerant, backwoods communities in America and across the especially when it comes from our nation.

Collin Powell was the man who went to the United Nations and LIED TO THE WHOLE WORLD about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. So, Cheney's plan of invading Iraq got Powell's rubberstamp.

That little "mistake" caused widespread destruction and huge suffering. One million Iraqis -almost all of them MUSLIMS- have been killed; some five million have lost their homes and are now refugees; the Middle East and South Asia are now in flames; thousands of US troops have been killes, and many other thousands were injured; the US economy went down the drain, dragging the entire world.

Besides, Powell was SECRETARY OF STATE when the US singlehandedly destroyed the United Nations system by invading a foreign country without authorization by the UN Security Council. And Powell was SECRETARY OF STATE when the US trashed international law by systematically torturing prisoners of war.

Oh yeah, it's great to hear such a moron as Collin Powell talk about "American values".

General Powell raised to the occasion big time-He is truley a great American Statesman.

Recently I was chatting with a Muslim mother in the lobby of a doctor's office. We both have autistic children and were comparing notes about the "looks" we get when our kids have meltdowns in the supermarket.

I was struck at how much we had in common, and how it wasn't until much later in the conversation that religion even came up.

I am saddened, although not surprised, to report that she was rather defensive. "I'm from Pakistan, but we've been here for twenty years and my children were all born here and we're not radical..."

I tried to reassure her that I wasn't a bigot. In fact, I belong to something of a religious minority (I'm Mormon), and I experienced mild discrimination from public school teachers in my childhood.

My experience is nothing compared to what more marginalized minorities face, but it did influence my belief in fairness, decency, and respect for religious pluralism.

I assume this woman became defensive because other people have been less tolerant. As an American, that shames and saddens me. I agree with General Powell completely: so what if a person is Muslim? Islam at its best is an incredibly cool religion, and I would love to see more moderate Muslims in public office.

Currently you have only one comment from an anti Muslim crazy, who understands nothing. He rants about Mohammed and the Koran, about Angels and Chariots.... What does he think is in the Bible where people live for hundreds of years, where God made the world in seven days, where God, (again), turned Lots wife into a pillar of salt for looking back on Sodom and Gammorah, what a guy!!!! A plague on all religions. However, if people are going to go to churches mosques and synagogues, they have to start adopting the point of view that what they believe may be true, not that it is true. It is the purveyance of the idea that one religion is right and all others wrong that is at the heart of so much slaughter and death. No one, can prove that they hod the ultimate truth, except maybe God and he/she/it really isn't talking...

To your point, Colin Powell is right. If Obama was a Muslim, which he isn't so what? Christians kill for Jesus too but for Christians, that's okay. Man I really do detest all these fanatics who own the truth....

When Powell sold out to Cheney and lied for him at the UN about WMD in a country that had nothing to do with the Twin Towers, the once highly respected general not only practiced "Islamophobia" but also "Isalamoscapegotia" for the 9/11 conspiracy.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8883910961351786332

Thank you Mr. Patel. As a fellow Chicagoan, I am always delighted to read your sensible columns in WaPo. I am an immigrant with a 7-yr old girl whom I am sure will one day feel as American as any of her contemporaries. To anyone that will treat my daughter any less or less deserving of whatever she aspires, just pray that there's no heaven or hell.

What General Powell should have said about Islam:

Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/ plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/ mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds this muck and stench of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

Current crises:

The Sunni-Shiite blood feud and the warmongering, womanizing (11 wives), hallucinating founder.