Farnaz:
Good post however I have to disagree on some points you made....

Pakistan was specifically created for the Muslims and Jinnah did provide some shelter for "minorities". Citizens living there all along then suddenly found they were different (lower) because of their religion. The preamble to the 1956 Constitution asserted that Pakistan was based on Islamic principles of social justice. Further it guaranteed Muslim life in accordance with the teachings and requirements of Islam set out in the koran and sunnah. It also prohibited any laws repugnant to Islam. Slowly and steadily the Islamists have had a strong hand in making Pakistan into an Islamic Republic that it is today. They successfully altered laws in 1973 Constitution to bring ALL existing laws into conformity with the injunctions of Islam; the ridiculous blasphemy law is a good example.
I needn’t go into more detail; the crux of the matter is that Islam is rooted in any Muslim counties laws.
All Muslim countries have strong Islamists who constantly alter secular laws toward Islam.

Interesting point you make here...
"I don't think you will find Qu'ranic justification for the mullahs that stood between rescuers and little girls trapped to death in a burning building. "

I don't think you can separate the two, along with the teachings of Quran and sunnah comes automatically the subjugation of women. In the above case it was the fear of women’s sexuality brought upon by nothing else other than Islam.

"In Palestine, one out of every three murders is an honor killing, usually by a brother of a sister for the crime of having been raped."

Quite true, not sure about the frequency but even one of such killing is unacceptable; however this is strictly an Islamic thing. Women automatically bare the brunt of morality in an Islamic society, if a sisters morals slip then she must be "disposed off". Pakistan and India share the same culture and genes, honor killing is common in Pakistan and comes with little or no public outcries... ask yourself why? The answer is NOT cultural.

"A combination of factors, some practices embedded in patriarchy, pre-Islamic tribal rites (e.g., female genital mutilation--not Islamic, but practiced in Muslim nations), have all been accepted under the cover of Islam, where many don't properly belong."

I have to disagree, pre-islam was quite open and women had MORE rights than in post-islam. This view that pre-islam women’s rights were trampled upon is simply made up by the apologists. Mohammeds own wife Khadija was the CEO of her own company (pre-islam). Iranian or Arab women never covered themselves up pre-islam the way they do now. Islam brought about the burka and the fear of seing a 6-year old female with open hair in public.

A very interesting case is that educated women in Pakistan may only wear a "dopatta" as head cover, most don't even cover their head with and use only during the 2-minute or so azzaan. These same women when they immigrate to the West wear the more restrictive Hijjab? Is this cultural? or are these women succumbing to pressure?

I hate long posts so I have to finish. You are mostly correct on most of your points.

Arif

In Saudi Arabia and Islamic Republic Iran,the Adulterers are punished to death(by beheading in Saudia). Is this Slander ?

I repeat many times,let me write one more time.
The Legends in the Law and Bible can not be excuse/apology for current submission violence.

How many women beheaded or punished to death for adultery in Israel ?
But,how many adulterers beheaded in Islamic Republic and Saudia ?
Are these slanders ?

Hey,African-American,Black woman,
Is Recm slander ?

"It does say that adulterers should be stoned to death"
So does your own Tanakh Farnaz. And laso advocates a father dragging his son into the public square for being 'rebellious'.

The Qur'an also states that adulterers must have 4- FOUR separate witnesses to THE ACT OF ADULTRY ITSELF-
3 is not enough, nor 2 nor one.
If a husband catches his wife- and accuses her- she will take na oathon ehr soul and could- if she were willing to lie- must be let go free and her reputation restored.

And finally- stoning is not the only option-

Your entire post is a combination of varied cultural problems- mixed in with social problems- and allusions to Islam-

If you want to make statements like, 1 in every 3 murders in Palestine- are honor killings- back it up with proof from a neutral source.

Why are you back to making slanders about Islam?

And aways, in particular, Palestinians.
Can't you let them alone?

When will it end?

I suspect what Arif means is that there are nations whose laws derive in large part from the Q'ran, and that these nations are more or less theocratic, in that the power behind those visible are clerics.

This much is absolutely true. However, it may also be said that some nations who claim their laws derive from Qu'ran, in fact, do not. For example, the Qu'ran says nothing about burquas. It says that women should dress modestly. It does say that adulterers should be stoned to death, and in some countries, they are.

I don't think you will find Qu'ranic justification for the mullahs that stood between rescuers and little girls trapped to death in a burning building. This was, in fact, televised. The mullahs were concerned that the girls would come out in disarray, might be partially exposed, etc., so instead they burned to death.

In many of these countries, as any well-respected Muslim academic will tell you, women are not viewed as fully developed human beings. In Palestine, one out of every three murders is an honor killing, usually by a brother of a sister for the crime of having been raped.

A combination of factors, some practices embedded in patriarchy, pre-Islamic tribal rites (e.g., female genital mutilation--not Islamic, but practiced in Muslim nations), have all been accepted under the cover of Islam, where many don't properly belong.

But the problems go much further. Many of these countries have a feudal economy, land-based, with indentured servants (slaves). The wealthy pay no taxes. Throughout Africa and the Middle East, in most third-world nations, the army is paid next to nothing. The same is true of the police. These men are easy prey for fundamentalists. At the same time they contribute to the problems since without corruption they would starve.

One doesn't call the police in these countries if one has been robbed, either because the police may have been the thieves or will know where the house is and rob it in the future.

Pakistan is an interesting case in point. On paper it is a democracy. There is an educated middle class. However, the land-holding families, the army, and the fundamentalists threaten its very existence, even as the Judiciary has been reinstated, and protesters pen their protests every day. At present, since Musharraf failed to follow our agenda (he couldn't have; no one could have), we've cut off aid to Pakistan. They are seeking foreign funds. God help us all if they don't find them.

We are largely responsible for where they are today, and we will pay a very high price, as will Pakistan's neighbors if no one comes to its aid very soon.

Mental is an expression I grew up with.
I am probably dating myself.

I think it is a pretty mild comeback- halozcel is busy insulting me on the main board too-

What? You're telling me that the Constitution of Pakistan is baed entirely on Islamic governance principle?
You know it is not.
"Do you believe that these countries (Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iraq, Sudan....) constitutions are wrong and that their laws have no Islamic basis whatsoever?"

It doesn't matter if I think they are wrong or right- what matters is that there is currently no Islamic government that is a consensually centralized Caliphate.

Is everyone taking crazy pills?
All people want to do is insult each other and fight.

Mercy, Arif- go look at the first post I posted-
This is the third time I'm repeating something I arleady stated.

We were making the distinction between America beign defined as a christian country by another-
o- just go read it Arif.

"There are no countries whose governance and rule of law are based on the Muslim doctrine."

Astoria,

How can you say that? To call someone mental while making such a statement you should at least justify it with more detail. Pakistan's creation owes itself to the Khilafat Movement; you may know what that means. When that movement died the Pakistan movement began; to get a separate homeland for Muslims who would then govern themselves by Islamic laws. All laws in Pakistan and subsequent Muslim countries whether they have Sharia or not stem from Islamic laws first. Every law has to pass the Islamic litmus test first before it becomes law. For example divorce laws, inheritance laws, criminal laws etc, have their roots in Islamic law first. Experts in Islamic Jurseprudence write and pass these laws.

Do you believe that these countries (Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iraq, Sudan....) constitutions are wrong and that their laws have no Islamic basis whatsoever?
It seems (I may be wrong here) you consider yourself more of an Islamic expert/scholar than all those Saudis, Pakistanis, and Iranians etc. who actually enact those laws?

Is it also possible that because some or most of these countries are failed states despite their roots in Islam, you don't want any association to their laws and the Koran?

Have you ever noticed the host of heaven and earth of god on the seventh day is Lamech and Noah.
Have you ever noticed Noah is begat on the eight day.
Don’t the so-called Christians have the son of god, Noah.
Have you ever noticed that Japheth, the son of man, is the eight begat and the gentiles call the eight day the lord’s day.
Is this not the father, the son, the holy ghost
Lamech, Noah, Japheth.
Does not Japheth have seven sons.
What are the elements of the so-called Christian churches?

Thus THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH WERE FINISHED, AND ALL THE HOST OF THEM.
And ON THE SEVENTH DAY GOD ENDED HIS WORK WHICH HE HAD MADE; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

LAMECH
NOAH

I said in mine heart concerning the estate of THE SONS OF MAN, that God might manifest them, and THAT THEY MIGHT SEE THAT THEY THEMSELVES ARE BEASTS.
Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and THE SPIRIT OF THE BEAST THAT GOETH DOWNWARD TO THE EARTH?
Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; FOR THAT IS HIS PORTION: FOR WHO SHALL BRING HIM TO SEE WHAT SHALL BE AFTER HIM?

THE SONS OF MAN
THAT THEY MIGHT SEE THAT THEY THEMSELVES ARE BEASTS
THE SPIRIT OF THE BEAST THAT GOETH DOWNWARD TO THE EARTH?
FOR THAT IS HIS PORTION: FOR WHO SHALL BRING HIM TO SEE WHAT SHALL BE AFTER HIM?

For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall THE SON OF MAN BE THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH.

Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, THAT ONE DAY IS WITH THE LORD AS A THOUSAND YEARS, AND A THOUSAND YEARS AS ONE DAY.
THE LORD IS NOT SLACK CONCERNING HIS PROMISE, as some men count slackness; BUT IS LONGSUFFERING TO US-ward, NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH but that all should come to repentance.
BUT THE DAY OF THE LORD WILL COME AS A THIEF IN THE NIGHT; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and THE ELEMENTS SHALL MELT WITH FERVENT HEAT, THE EARTH ALSO AND THE WORKS THAT ARE THEREIN SHALL BE BURNED UP.

Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
Even so we, when we were children, were IN BONDAGE UNDER THE ELEMENTS OF THE WORLD:

IN BONDAGE UNDER THE ELEMENTS OF THE WORLD

THE SON OF MAN IS LORD EVEN OF THE SABBATH DAY
BUT THE DAY OF THE LORD WILL COME AS A THIEF IN THE NIGHT
THE ELEMENTS SHALL MELT WITH FERVENT HEAT
THE EARTH ALSO AND THE WORKS THAT ARE THEREIN SHALL BE BURNED UP

ENOS
CAINAN
MAHALALEEL
JARED
ENOCH
METHUSELAH
LAMECH
NOAH

CAIN
ENOCH
IRAD
MEHUJAEL
METHUSAEL
LAMECH
NOAH
JAPHETH

GOD SHALL ENLARGE JAPHETH
THE SON OF MAN IS LORD EVEN OF THE SABBATH DAY
THE SON OF MAN SIT ON THE RIGHT HAND OF THE POWER OF GOD
The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.

When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.
And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear.
Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
And CAIN went out from the presence of the Lord, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.
And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare ENOCH: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.
And unto Enoch was born IRAD: and Irad begat MEHUJAEL: and Mehujael begat METHUSAEL: and Methusael begat LAMECH.
And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah.
And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and of such as have cattle.
And his brother's name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ.
And Zillah, she also bare Tubalcain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron: and the sister of Tubalcain was Naamah.
And Lamech said unto his wives, Adah and Zillah, Hear my voice; ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech: for I have slain a man to my wounding, and a young man to my hurt.
If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold.
And Lamech lived an hundred eighty and two years, and begat a son:
And he called his name NOAH, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the Lord hath cursed.
And Lamech lived after he begat Noah five hundred ninety and five years, and begat sons and daughters:
And all the days of Lamech were seven hundred seventy and seven years: and he died.
And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat SHEM, HAM, and JAPHETH.
And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
AND HE SAID, CURSED BE CANAAN; A SERVANT OF SERVANTS SHALL HE BE UNTO HIS BRETHREN.
And he said, BLESSED BE THE LORD GOD OF SHEM; AND CANAAN SHALL BE HIS SERVANT.
GOD SHALL ENLARGE JAPHETH, AND HE SHALL DWELL IN THE TENTS OF SHEM; AND CANAAN SHALL BE HIS SERVANT.

CAIN
ENOCH
IRAD
MEHUJAEL
METHUSAEL
LAMECH
NOAH
JAPHETH

AND HE SAID, CURSED BE CANAAN; A SERVANT OF SERVANTS SHALL HE BE UNTO HIS BRETHREN.
GOD SHALL ENLARGE JAPHETH, AND HE SHALL DWELL IN THE TENTS OF SHEM; AND CANAAN SHALL BE HIS SERVANT.

BLESSED BE THE LORD GOD OF SHEM; AND CANAAN SHALL BE HIS SERVANT.

For THE SON OF MAN IS LORD EVEN OF THE SABBATH DAY.
But that ye may know that THE SON OF MAN HATH POWER ON EARTH to forgive sins
THE SON OF MAN CAME EATING AND DRINKING, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, A FRIEND OF PUBLICANS AND SINNERS. But wisdom is justified of her children.
VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, THERE BE SOME STANDING HERE, WHICH SHALL NOT TASTE OF DEATH, TILL THEY SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN HIS KINGDOM.
For AS JONAS WAS A SIGN UNTO THE NINEVITES, SO SHALL ALSO THE SON OF MAN BE TO THIS GENERATION.
Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
But THE SAME DAY THAT LOT WENT OUT OF SODOM IT RAINED FIRE AND BRIMSTONE FROM HEAVEN, AND DESTROYED THEM ALL.
Even THUS SHALL IT BE IN THE DAY WHEN THE SON OF MAN IS REVEALED.
Hereafter shall THE SON OF MAN SIT ON THE RIGHT HAND OF THE POWER OF GOD.
Then Jesus said unto them, VERILY, VERILY, I SAY UNTO YOU, EXCEPT YE EAT THE FLESH OF THE SON OF MAN, AND DRINK HIS BLOOD, YE HAVE NO LIFE IN YOU.
WHAT AND IF YE SHALL SEE THE SON OF MAN ASCEND UP WHERE HE WAS BEFORE?

Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood.
The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.
And the sons of Gomer; Ashkenaz, and Riphath, and Togarmah.
And the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim.
By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.

This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
And Seth lived an hundred and five years, and begat Enos:
And Seth lived after he begat Enos eight hundred and seven years, and begat sons and daughters:
And all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years: and he died.
And ENOS lived ninety years, and begat CAINAN:
And Enos lived after he begat Cainan eight hundred and fifteen years, and begat sons and daughters:
And all the days of Enos were nine hundred and five years: and he died.
And Cainan lived seventy years and begat MAHALALEEL:
And Cainan lived after he begat Mahalaleel eight hundred and forty years, and begat sons and daughters:
And all the days of Cainan were nine hundred and ten years: and he died.
And Mahalaleel lived sixty and five years, and begat JARED:
And Mahalaleel lived after he begat Jared eight hundred and thirty years, and begat sons and daughters:
And all the days of Mahalaleel were eight hundred ninety and five years: and he died.
And Jared lived an hundred sixty and two years, and he begat ENOCH:
And Jared lived after he begat Enoch eight hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
And all the days of Jared were nine hundred sixty and two years: and he died.
And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat METHUSELAH:
And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
And Methuselah lived an hundred eighty and seven years, and begat LAMECH.
And Methuselah lived after he begat Lamech seven hundred eighty and two years, and begat sons and daughters:
And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died.
And Lamech lived an hundred eighty and two years, and begat a son:
And he called his name NOAH, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the Lord hath cursed.
And Lamech lived after he begat Noah five hundred ninety and five years, and begat sons and daughters:
And all the days of Lamech were seven hundred seventy and seven years: and he died.
And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

ENOS
CAINAN
MAHALALEEL
JARED
ENOCH
METHUSELAH
LAMECH
NOAH

He didn't say it PP- he was copying (badly) what I said.

There are no countries whose governance and rule of law are based on the Muslim doctrine.

You are mental Haloz.

So, Halo, I'm glad you've come around to saying that a majority being claimed to be of a given religion shouldn't mean everyone there 'submits' to that religion.

Go America! :)

Astoria,

What a bad English this is !

*There doesnt(it doesnt) actually exist an Islamic country on the earth tday(today).At least,according to Muslims*
Yes,*according to muslims*(!)
-How can you speak in the name of all muslims ?
-How can you write in the behalf of 1.2-1.5 millions people ?
*Islamic Republic* named by Iran people.Arent Iranians muslims ?
Isnt Saudi Arabia islamic country ?
There are 57 muslim countries and no one represents Submission (?) In that case,you are talking about *Utopia*

Turkish woman(you dont represent majority of Turkish women),
Was there *man-woman equality* in Ottoman Empire ?
Were there muslim woman professor,doctor,business-owner etc. in Ottoman ?

*I have continued to try to educate people on the ''inadmissability of fatwas/verdict''*
What a word.Yes,what a word.
Who are you,who are you ??
How can you decide *inadmissability*.Dont they know submission as much as you.
Besides,you dont try to educate anyone,but you are telling about *Alice in Wonderland* Utopia.

I hope these energetic youths go and vote.

Arminus, There doesn't actually exist an Islamic country on the earth tday. At least, according to Muslims. There are densely mulim populated countries, but just as America can be called a densely Christian populated country-
It's constitution and rule of law are not based on christian doctrine.
The same goes for Muslim countries.
There are no countries whose governance and rule oflaw are based on the Muslim doctrine.

That is why, as you've probably noticed, I have continued to try to educate people on the inadmissability of fatwas-
Without a centralized consensual authority (i.e Isalmic government) there can be no consensual agreeent on thevlidity of the fatwa.
They remain, just someone's opinion.
Even Iran, is not a Muslim country- although many seem to think it is.

Arminius says:

“we are not a Christian nation, we are a nation mostly populated by Christians. BIG difference."

A nation whose vast majority are Christians and who publicly celebrates Christmas and Easter is a
Christian nation whether its government claims to have or not have a religion. The fact that the state is careful not to assume the duties of church means that the state has no religion and that is the way it should be. The idea that a state has a religion is as ridiculous as a tree or rock or a nightclub having a religion.

abhab

Israel is a Jewish nation because it has been declared that by national law there. Islamic countries are Islamic nations for the same reason. America, by virtue of our Constitution, has NO official religion. Therefore, we are not a Christian nation, we are a nation mostly populated by Christians. BIG difference.

Kirby asks:
"is America still a Christian nation?"
When a Jewish majority country is a Jewish nation, a Muslim majority country a Muslim nation(s) then America is a Christian nation. America does not use the New Testament as the sole source for its constitution as do the non-Christian nations, but that does not mean that the citizens of this country do not have a religion that they practice at home and places of worship. The majority are not forcing their faith on the minority religions or limiting their rights to practice it at home and mosques and temples . Yet at the same time minority religions should not try to impose their religious culture on the rest of us as to demand of us to redefine our culture and institutions to accommodate their practices.

Do you mean no Protestants and Catholics are hauling ass out to Mom's, Pop's, and Nana's?