I am not posting any of my comments this is a comment posted by a Jew.

Thank you for your "moderate" post of coexistence.

However, not all the time, both sides are right.

In this case, the state terror of Israel, is clearly the wrong side as measured by morality, world public opinion (US public opinion is shaped by its pro-Israeli media and pro-Israeli lobby-influenced policymakers and elites).

Israel and its Jewish apologetic US and European backers complain about Hamas' rockets and its desire to annihilate Israel, yet action speaks louder than words?

Who is capable and currently annihilating who? Who is living, breathing, and facing the most advanced US military weapon being pointed at them squarely in their homes and faces?

I can only imagine the fear, terror, and Israeli-carnage on the stranded people of Gaza as they brave this onslaught WITH US COMPLICITY in BLOCKING ANY U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTIONS.

SHAME ON ALL US JEWS FOR LOSING THEIR MORAL COMPASS AND EVOLVING INTO THE OPPRESSORS AFTER BEING AT THE RECEIVING END OF THEM. WAY TO OPPRESS THE VERY PEOPLE YOU LIVED WITH FOR THE PAST 1,000 YEARS WHO HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR OPPRESSION OR THE HOLOCAUST.

I would like to add that as human beings we must raise above caste and religion to protest this Israeli state terror with the collusion of USA and the Arab sheikdoms which are queers upo the bottom of the pit.

I am ashamed that all those of you, who do not tire, putting their most learned comments about localised incidence and cry over them, remain quite over massacre of such a big magnitude.

If we are void of compassion and we are blinded by our prejudices then the time is not far when the situation will change and all out revenge will be the order of the day - fear before this holocaust happens.

Farnaz2 :

You are right.

I have pictures of the dome at home.

Wars have destroyed the Jewish temple more than once.

Maybe some day a Kassam rocket will hit the dome of the rock.

It would be poetic justice.

Mark
Always seek the truth.

Patel says
"The first phone calls Jewish and Muslim officials should make when bombs explode over there are . . . to reasonable people in the other community.

The first line should be, "I'm on the side of coexistence . . . What public statements can we collectively make . . . which helps the side of coexistence defeat the demon of conflict?"

Can we agree that non-violence will save lives? Or do we agree that only with "resistance" can we meet our objectives of peace and security????
Arabs say that they will not stop the violence until their demands for self-determination are met. Jews say that Arab "demands" made in violence must stop.
Jews have found a new playbook and that is not to bow to opinion based on the world's need for oil. Jewish blood for Arab oil seems to be the standard.
You object!!! Then explain to me 300,000 deaths and counting in Darfur; 150,000 Kurdish dead under Saddam. Where was the Arab outrage then and now. The Palestinians are engaged in high drama using human sacrifice for world attention.
My first call is to all Muslim groups to join me in a statement that calls for an end to Arab rockets and to Israeli bombs. Are there any takers????

I agree with the premise of the article, insofar as it applies to us, to the U.S. We should not expect our behavior to have much of an impact over there. You are emphsizing rationality over religion; the exact opposite is true in the Middle East. This is particularly true in areas controlled by organizations such as Hezbollah & Hamas. Whether or not their viewpoint is truly in keeping with the teachings of Islam must be decised by the Muslim world. It would appear that so far, Muslims in the area in question accept & believe the Hamas viewpoint. We should promote dialog here, because it is crucial to our way of life here.
As long as Israel is expected to act unilaterally, there will be no change in the situation on the ground. Discussions such as this are pointless in the situation in Gaza. Tell me, how does one have a rational discussion with someone whose clearly stated, often-repeated goal is to kill you?
Do you REALLY want to see change? Show the people of the West Bank & Gaza that the wider Islamic world will no longer support & fund Hezbollah, Hamas, et al, any longer. Then, perhaps those people will see a reason to risk standing up to the shooters & fanatics by opening a true dialog with Israel. Otherwise, nothing there will change.

When Hamas was firing missiles towards Israel, not a single muslim across the globe aired his protest.

What are these people thinking? They can fire at somebody and expect no response?

Doomsday will result to this kind of mentality. You can't fire a nuke and expect to be unscathed afterwards.

The Muslim world has absolutely nothing to offer the civilized world but oil, an accident of nature. Muslims have used their good fortune as a weapon against the West for 50 years now.

They artificially raise oil prices, they fund terrorists, they fund Muslim, hate schools around the world, they buy up property and business, and fund pro-Muslim propaganda.

This is not a religion. as much as a unified program of destruction and conquest.

Muslims will have to stop making themselves enemies of the civilized world before most will have any sympathy for their plight.

Israel is America's #1 ally. That says it all.

"I can only imagine the fear, terror, and Israeli-carnage on the stranded people of Gaza as they brave this onslaught WITH US COMPLICITY in BLOCKING ANY U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTIONS.

SHAME ON ALL US JEWS FOR LOSING THEIR MORAL COMPASS AND EVOLVING INTO THE OPPRESSORS AFTER BEING AT THE RECEIVING END OF THEM. WAY TO OPPRESS THE VERY PEOPLE YOU LIVED WITH FOR THE PAST 1,000 YEARS WHO HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR OPPRESSION OR THE HOLOCAUST."
---------------------------------------

Your bigotry is showing- all U.S. Jews are not supporting the Israeli actions. I'm one who is not and has not. There are many more. Stop your stereotypes and hate-mongering. That isn't the solution to the violence.

Mr. Patel confuses Islamic people and Jewish people with Islamic organizations and Jewish organizations. Many Jews and Muslims do not belong to these organizations and do not share their views. I try to take an independent view of the facts- not to follow the crowd, any crowd. As such, I recognize that extremists on both the Israeli and Palestinian side of the conflict are fanning the flames of hatred and war. It is time for all decent people to step forward, both in the U.S. and around the world, and demand an end to the bloodshed and bigotry.

There is a possiblity that Hamas was goaded by Iran to fire missiles to Israel so the resulting trouble would jack up the price of oil.

Middle eastern countries should look for alternative source of living coz in time, oil would become obsolete.

That would be a catastrophe for oil producing countries if they don't reform fast.

Anything is possible. However, a collective effort to create a new approach would require the far extremes on both sides to be ignored in lieu of the centrist approach somewhere in the center, whereinlies, the answer.

In this conflict it has been the extermist on both sides that have championed "their sides" response and lead their propaganda rhetoric.

I would think that the American Israeli and Palestinian organization could be a strong force for sustained change in the Middle East. But they, in the seat of Democracy, cannot get along themselves. They should. I don't see them attacking each other here.

I am so overwhelmed with the two wars that America is fighting and this horrible economy that I can't offer much thought on what is going on in the Middle East. In fact, it seems, to me, to be a distraction.

Both sides, as they continue, will reduce the entire world to violence. Revenge is best served cold! Two Wrongs do not make a Right! There are plenty of cliches' and even quotes from the Quran and the Tora that speak to forgiveness and fairness. Both sides are equally responsible for the death and destruction. Perhaps the international community should take over the region; Israel, The West bank, and Gaza Strip and enforce peace. Force these people to live together in peace as they have not lived in peace for over sixty years now.

Patrick

And the idiocy of it all is that Jews and Moslems believe in and are driven by the myths of the OT and the koran especially in mythical Abraham and "pretty, wingie, talking, thingies"!!

Hatred among Jews and Muslims have gone so deep down that there is no possibility of a compromise, the solution will be a blood bath.

American hegemony which started after demise of Soviets in 1990s will be gone in another few years. Americans have worked hard to become the most despised nation in the world

All Arab leaders from Mubarak to Saudis are just puppets.
They will not be able to survive long in present days of open and connected world, in next few years they all will vanish that is history all about.

Democracy in Muslim world cannot be stopped by propping up puppets. Policies of America has ensured that anti American forces, will eventually prevail.

What I fear most is another holocaust

Rednova commented as below:

Thank you for your "moderate" post of coexistence.

However, not all the time, both sides are right.

In this case, the state terror of Israel, is clearly the wrong side as measured by morality, world public opinion (US public opinion is shaped by its pro-Israeli media and pro-Israeli lobby-influenced policymakers and elites).

Israel and its Jewish apologetic US and European backers complain about Hamas' rockets and its desire to annihilate Israel, yet action speaks louder than words?

Who is capable and currently annihilating who? Who is living, breathing, and facing the most advanced US military weapon being pointed at them squarely in their homes and faces?

I can only imagine the fear, terror, and Israeli-carnage on the stranded people of Gaza as they brave this onslaught WITH US COMPLICITY in BLOCKING ANY U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTIONS.

SHAME ON ALL US JEWS FOR LOSING THEIR MORAL COMPASS AND EVOLVING INTO THE OPPRESSORS AFTER BEING AT THE RECEIVING END OF THEM. WAY TO OPPRESS THE VERY PEOPLE YOU LIVED WITH FOR THE PAST 1,000 YEARS WHO HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR OPPRESSION OR THE HOLOCAUST.

I would like to add that as human beings we must raise above caste and religion to protest this Israeli state terror with the collusion of USA and the Arab sheikdoms which are queers upo the bottom of the pit.

I am ashamed that all those of you, who do not tire, putting their most learned comments about localised incidence and cry over them, remain quite over massacre of such a big magnitude.

If we are void of compassion and we are blinded by our prejudices then the time is not far when the situation will change and all out revenge will be the order of the day - fear before this holocaust happens.

Rednova commented as below:

Thank you for your "moderate" post of coexistence.

However, not all the time, both sides are right.

In this case, the state terror of Israel, is clearly the wrong side as measured by morality, world public opinion (US public opinion is shaped by its pro-Israeli media and pro-Israeli lobby-influenced policymakers and elites).

Israel and its Jewish apologetic US and European backers complain about Hamas' rockets and its desire to annihilate Israel, yet action speaks louder than words?

Who is capable and currently annihilating who? Who is living, breathing, and facing the most advanced US military weapon being pointed at them squarely in their homes and faces?

I can only imagine the fear, terror, and Israeli-carnage on the stranded people of Gaza as they brave this onslaught WITH US COMPLICITY in BLOCKING ANY U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTIONS.

SHAME ON ALL US JEWS FOR LOSING THEIR MORAL COMPASS AND EVOLVING INTO THE OPPRESSORS AFTER BEING AT THE RECEIVING END OF THEM. WAY TO OPPRESS THE VERY PEOPLE YOU LIVED WITH FOR THE PAST 1,000 YEARS WHO HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR OPPRESSION OR THE HOLOCAUST.

I would like to add that as human beings we must raise above caste and religion to protest this Israeli state terror with the collusion of USA and the Arab sheikdoms which are queers upo the bottom of the pit.

I am ashamed that all those of you, who do not tire, putting their most learned comments about localised incidence and cry over them, remain quite over massacre of such a big magnitude.

If we are void of compassion and we are blinded by our prejudices then the time is not far when the situation will change and all out revenge will be the order of the day - fear before this holocaust happens.

CCNL,

This is so that you can be elevated and joyous.

From Richard Rolle, "The Fire of Love"

"I call it song when already in the soul, burning fervour abounding, the smoothness of eternal praise is taken up and meditation is transformed into song and the mind lingers in honey-flowing melody."

volkmare

The Dome of the Rock is built on top of, yes on top of The Temple Mount, the remains of the Second Temple, which has always been the holiest site in Judaism.

When Diasporic Jews pray, when any Jew prays, s/he prays facing the Temple Mount. Judaism pre-dates Islam by thousands of years. The Bible mentions Jerusalem thousands of times.

In Arabic, Quoran does not mention it even once. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem launched a political struggle for greater recognition of the Temple Mount.

After the Six Day War, Moshe Dayan stood at the Temple Mount. Jews all over the world stood there with them. After all the years of horror, persecution, inability to pray at there Temple, they were home. After all the years of Next Year in Jerusalem, said every Passover, they were home.

They could go and pray at their temple, the temple they face three times a day when they pray.

BUT NO. It WAS NOT TO BE. WHY? IT MIGHT UPSET THE PALESTINIANS.

REDNOVA:

"SHAME ON ALL US JEWS FOR LOSING THEIR MORAL COMPASS AND EVOLVING INTO THE OPPRESSORS AFTER BEING AT THE RECEIVING END OF THEM. WAY TO OPPRESS THE VERY PEOPLE YOU LIVED WITH FOR THE PAST 1,000 YEARS WHO HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR OPPRESSION OR THE HOLOCAUST."
____________________________
SHAME ON YOU FOR BEING A FILTHY RACIST.

get rid of every religion including atheism. it has done more harm to the mankind than the good it was intended to do.

Eboo,

I find it interesting that everyone seems to think that a negotiated truce between Israel and Hamas will work.

Yet everyone seems to be willing to turn a blind eye to the truth.
The truth is, Hamas and their backers are religious fanatics. They are not truly representative of Islam.

The fanatics have become so influential that Islam is afraid to be seen on the other side. Yet one of their holiest places is in Jerusalem , the dome of the rock where Mohamed ascended to heaven. Add to that the fact that the Koran tells them that Israel belongs to Islam, either that or they are taking it out of context. That kind of puts Islam between a rock and a hard place, so to speak.

Israel, on the other hand is dealing with an enemy that has sworn that God has told them to destroy Israel. They are constantly under attack except when a cease-fire is called so Hamas can rearm. You cannot expect them not to defend themselves, even when it is a loosing proposition.

Both sides take the same position that I do, in that it is foolish to tell God he is wrong. However, they can’t both be right.

History had demonstrated on many occasions that negotiating with terrorists or fanatics is futile, and will always fail. Yet politicians continue to try if only for their own political advancement.

The Middle East is a powder keg. There is no solution that will last. That area has been fought over since the beginning of recorded history all in the name of God.

Nothing short of the end of the world will solve the problem, and if there is a catalyst to that end, it is the Middle East. Even God’s prophets have confirmed that one in the bible.

The best thing we can do is to help the innocents who find themselves in the way, and let the armies of the Middle East have at each other. God didn’t cause this problem, but he is watching how well we take care of the innocents.

We did a good thing in Iraq and at a great price in American lives, but it won’t last. Was it worth it? If you had seen the pictures my son brought back of the massive mass graves on his first tour that we put a stop to, the only answer is yes. I am certain that God appreciates what we did.

Mark
Study scriptures at http://www.lds.org
Learn about Jesus at http://jesuschrist.lds.org
Always seek the truth.

i have copyed and save my actual words on my computer i willnot be silenced or censored by about faith again if you choose not to post my word know they may just reappear and reappear on your and other peoples stories as well as outside websites. i have not had this problem with you like the others and the one time it was not for reasons that i understand but were invalid . there was a post made to aswer my question. you have more regard for the merican constitution than the good.. christians who i am actually one of they may not wish to claim me on all days just like i don''t wish to claim them on all days. they should understand the truth cuts both ways and is true both ways thank you

Thank you for your "moderate" post of coexistence.

However, not all the time, both sides are right.

In this case, the state terror of Israel, is clearly the wrong side as measured by morality, world public opinion (US public opinion is shaped by its pro-Israeli media and pro-Israeli lobby-influenced policymakers and elites).

Israel and its Jewish apologetic US and European backers complain about Hamas' rockets and its desire to annihilate Israel, yet action speaks louder than words?

Who is capable and currently annihilating who? Who is living, breathing, and facing the most advanced US military weapon being pointed at them squarely in their homes and faces?

I can only imagine the fear, terror, and Israeli-carnage on the stranded people of Gaza as they brave this onslaught WITH US COMPLICITY in BLOCKING ANY U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTIONS.

SHAME ON ALL US JEWS FOR LOSING THEIR MORAL COMPASS AND EVOLVING INTO THE OPPRESSORS AFTER BEING AT THE RECEIVING END OF THEM. WAY TO OPPRESS THE VERY PEOPLE YOU LIVED WITH FOR THE PAST 1,000 YEARS WHO HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR OPPRESSION OR THE HOLOCAUST.

CCNL,

This is so that you can be elevated and joyous.

From Richard Rolle, "The Fire of Love"

"I call it song when already in the soul, burning fervour abounding, the smoothness of eternal praise is taken up and meditation is transformed into song and the mind lingers in honey-flowing melody."

And the idiocy of it all is that both sides believe and are driven by the myths of the OT and the koran especially in mythical Abraham and "pretty, wingie, talking, thingies"!!!

Did anyone notice that among the top 10 most polular emails in NY times, bbc and washingtonpost, "none" are related to Palestanian conflict. Get a life people. No one cares!

Long live America, Israel.

ripvanwinkleincolleg:

First, the Clinton peace plan was accepted. As noted at the time by an Arab head of state, "The Palestinians never lose an opportunity to lose an Opportunity." It was a thing done.

Ariel Sharon went to the Temple Mount/Dome of the Rock since Arafat had assured the Israeli people, who believed him, that Jews would be allowed to worship there. Why did they believe him when the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem maintained that the Temple Mount didn't exist? Desperation for peace.

May I also point out that the word Yerushalem appears thousands of times in the Tanakh, that next year in Yerusalem by Diasporic Jews universally for close to two thousand years? (How many times does it appear in the Quoran in Arabic, you ask? Not at all.)

Israelis believed him! Well Sharon showed that they were being lied to when he went to the Temple Mount/Dome of the Rock, and bullets started flying.

ANOTHER POINT: JEWS HAVE ALWAYS PRAYED FACING JERUSALEM. A THING CHRISTIANS REFUSE TO KNOW, BUT NOW THEY DO. ALWAYS. WHEN MOSHE DAYAN WON THE SIX-DAY WAR, HE STOOD AT THE TEMPLE MOUNT, AND EVERY JEW EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD STOOD THERE WITH HIM.

But then, because the Palestinians were trying to make the Dome of the Rock a holy site, for diplomacy, DAYAN left. He left, and two thousand years of hope left with him.
___________________________
Quesions still unaddressed by you:

"No settlement is every going to satisfy everyone, but opinion polls consistently show that if Israel goes back to the status quo of 1967 with some adjustments for the large West Bank settlement blocks and Jerusalem, and compensation to refugees, the vast majority of the Arab world will accept this as a peace treaty. This used to be the offical US position as well, and then something went off track after the first Bush administration left office."

Question 1: If what you say would be all that were necessary, why then was there a 1967 war to begin with?

Question 2: would you have advised Bush Jr. to withdraw from Saudi Arabia immediately after the WTC disaster? That was Osama's stated reason for the attack. I didn't see any blogs suggesting that though.

Ripvanwinkle con'td
Easy to speak from a place where Muslims are thrown off plane, where coming here from a Muslim country is almost as difficult as robbing the White House. Do you know how badly people are treated en route here?

Now, suppose you found out there was a network of tunnels a few miles from your house with men bearing explosives. Suppose you saw rockets launched in your direction.
_______________________

Final points:

What you will and will not pay for is a matter of profound indifference to me. The US and Europe use Israel as a means of intelligence gathering and in the process have cost Israel at least 1000 lives at last count.

It has caused endless divisions and strife within the nation since the police will not allow demonstrations against the US. Again and again, Israel has been the source of avoiding terrorist threats here. Sometimes, the US did not listen.

The US was warned about the terrorist plan for WTC I by Israel and EGYPT, and ignored the warning. As we now know, they were warned about the presence in the US of terrorists plotting WTC II.

German police contacted Israel about the terrorists who wound up blowing up Pan Am Flight 103, but German courts refused the police a search warrant!
_________________

I pray for the day when Israel aligns itself with its Arab neighbors. This could have and should have been done in the beginning, but the English interfered as did the US. There were, as well, problems with the Grand Mufti who aligned himself with Hitler to keep Jews out. Again, his goal was to make Jerusalem an important Muslim holy site.

Without the US, Israel would have pre-empted the 1973 war, and hundreds of Jews would be alive. They would not have allowed help to the trapped Egyptian 3rd army until they surrendered, and hundreds of Jews would be alive.

They would not have been prevented from defending themselves when Iraq attacked them and Jews, Christians, and Muslims would be alive.

They would not have continued to negotiate with Arafat for a peace that never was sincerely intended while Arafat blew up children, women, men, Jews, Christians , Muslims.

MOst importantly, much of that strife could have been avoided.

I fervently pray for an opening, another window, that will remove Israel forever from the grip of the West. I live for that day.

I would yank my nine-year-old, my husband, quit my job, leave everything and go. I would wish no harm to this great nation, but enough is enough.

You have caused too much suffering to too many people all over the world.

FARNAZ2.
Arafat never agreed to the final terms offered to him, because that offer contained terms that any reasonable person would not have accepted. For example, all Jews living in East Jerusalem would have been subject to Israeli law and not Palestinian law. And if they had decided to expand their outposts in Jerusalem, how would they have been stopped from doing so by the Palestinians if they were not subject to Palestinian law? That's just one of several issues that any reasonable person would have had with the 2000 "agreement". Some Jewish people think they are entitled to take over all of historical Palestine. That's their personal opinion, but as an American taxpayer, I choose not to accept that. I accept only that the UN partitioned Palestine in 1947 and that the US agreed to that partition. Everything that has happened since then is up for negotiation. Since no one has ever negotiated with Hamas, it's hard to say what they would or would not be willing to do if they were negotiated with. When George Bush senior forced Israel to negotiate with the PLO, the PLO at that time was engaged in the intifada and had not yet accepted Israel's right to exist. That came as part of the negotiated settlement. I agree now that Hamas has to be dealt with based on what Hamas is doing now, not what should have been done in 2006, but I don't mind pointing out that Israel has had many opportunities to engage in meaningful negotiations based on a trade of land for peace, and all the time Israel demanded that the Palestinians cease violence. The fact that the Palestinians did not completely do so does not justify expansion of even more settlements while they came to terms with their loss of dignity; after all, it was Israel which took their land as uninvited guests and not vice versa. So, the onus has always been on Israel to agree to terms acceptable to Arabs and not vice versa, in my mind. I don't agree with Palestinian violence and I think that Israel is justifed in taking the actions now that it is forced to take in Gaza. When they are done, I would hope that they would shift their force to the West Bank and dismantle the outposts, and find some meaningful way of sharing Jerusalem such as making the Old City into a kind of Vatican that one one "owns", as per the original UN partition of Palestine. Then they can face the Palestinians with a clean conscience to find out whether or not a majority of the Palestinians are really interested in peace or not. But it may already be too late.

For Spidermean2 only,

The Reality of it all:

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was either the embellishment of the lives of three different men or a
mythical character as was mythical Moses, the "Tablet-Man" who talked to burning bushes and made much magic in Egypt.

Many of the 1.5 million Conservative Jews and many of their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT.

Current crisis:

Realization that the Jews are not god's chosen people.

www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics.
http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/Works_Cited

For added "pizzazz", Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

Current crises:

Pedophiliac priests, atonement theology and original sin!!!!

3. Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

Current crises:

Adulterous preachers, "propheteering/ profiteering" evangelicals and atonement theology.

Jews, Christians, & Muslims accept the motto: "No to violence, yes to Take Conscience of the great value of life and its Transcendence" so by conviction, more than by laws or threatens, "All of us become genuinely sincere, grateful and respectful of The One Who gave us Life, to Nature and to ourselves" Please let us know the film "Pay it forward" In it we know how a child makes a chain of favors by inviting all people of Good Will to make a reality these ideas. In my book "AWARENESS" you will find the methodology.
I will send it to you as my gift if you ask me for it to my tomarconciencia at hot mail dot com Free of charge and as e-book.
Happy new Year 2009 I write with my pseudonym Paul Hertre

Simple solutions but hard to follow. These are the mistakes of both sides.

1. The Muslim world and the rest of the world should realize that Israel is a chosen people of God. God had made a promise to them. Clueless people (those who would fight Israel) would greatly suffer because of their ignorance.

2. Israel on the other hand should realize that Jesus Christ is the Messiah. For their ignorance of this fact, they too would greatly suffer.

Peace on earth (after Doomsday) will commence once these two things are satisfied.

Ripvanwinkelincollege:

No settlement is every going to satisfy everyone, but opinion polls consistently show that if Israel goes back to the status quo of 1967 with some adjustments for the large West Bank settlement blocks and Jerusalem, and compensation to refugees, the vast majority of the Arab world will accept this as a peace treaty. This used to be the offical US position as well, and then something went off track after the first Bush administration left office.

Question 1: If what you say would be all that were necessary, why then was there a 1967 war to begin with?

Question 2: Why did the Clinton Peace Initiative end in an intifadah? After, by the way, the Palestinians had agreed to it?

Some thoughts on the problem:

Finally, would you have advised Bush to withdraw from Saudi Arabia immediately after the WTC disaster? That was Osama's stated reason for the attack. I didn't see any blogs suggesting that though.

Easy to speak from a place where Muslims are thrown off plains, where coming here from a Muslim country is almost as difficult as robbing the White House. Do you know how badly people are treated en route here?

Now, suppose you found out there was a network of tunnels a few miles from your house with men bearing explosives. Suppose you saw rockets launched in your direction.

Your article demonstrates quite well what Jimmy Carter's former adviser said on CNN recently, "Left to themselves, the two sides of this conflict will never be able to reach agreement." Bush had a good opportunity in 2002 with the Saudi peace initiative and the full backing of the Arab world to reach a settlement both sides could have lived with. Why do we have to give in each and every time to the Israeli lobby's refusal to allow any Israeli pullback on settlements in the West Bank or Jerusalem which they never had any legitimate right to erect in the first place and which they promised not to build in the Camp David accords in the second place? Yes, they're rich and powerful and they have a track record of getting what they want. So, that's supposed to make it right, and we're supposed to allow the American taxpayer to continue to be fiscally raped just so this rich/powerful group can have everything they want? When will the American people finally wake up on this issue? No settlement is every going to satisfy everyone, but opinion polls consistently show that if Israel goes back to the status quo of 1967 with some adjustments for the large West Bank settlement blocks and Jerusalem, and compensation to refugees, the vast majority of the Arab world will accept this as a peace treaty. This used to be the offical US position as well, and then something went off track after the first Bush administration left office.

As Americans, the Muslims and Jews should disassociate themselves from the Middle East. Otherwise, taking sides over there from here, will poison this land also. The Zionists have been very powerful, due to an accident of fate. They have collared the hidden guilt of most Jews in the US to support them ad infinitum. Good for the Zionists, but bad for American Jews. How long will it take for the Palestinians to do like wise with Muslims in the US? Not long now, if human records are any guide.

Mark, Mark, Mark,

Hmmm, afraid of the mumbo jumbo of one con artist named Joe Smith?? Hardly!!!

Added specifics about the Time Magazine review of Mormonism : TIME MAGAZINE
AUGUST 4, 1997 VOL. 150 NO. 5

More excerpts:

"The church's material triumphs rival even its evangelical advances. With unusual cooperation from the Latter-day Saints hierarchy (which provided some financial figures and a rare look at church businesses), TIME has been able to quantify the church's extraordinary financial vibrancy. Its current assets total a minimum of $30 billion. If it were a corporation, its estimated $5.9 billion in annual gross income would place it midway through the FORTUNE 500, a little below Union Carbide and the Paine Webber Group but bigger than Nike and the Gap. And as long as corporate rankings are being bandied about, the church would make any list of the most admired: for straight dealing, company spirit, contributions to charity (even the non-Mormon kind) and a fiscal probity among its powerful leaders that would satisfy any shareholder group, if there were one.

"The top beef ranch in the world is not the King Ranch in Texas. It is the Deseret Cattle & Citrus Ranch outside Orlando, Fla. It covers 312,000 acres; its value as real estate alone is estimated at $858 million. It is owned entirely by the Mormons. The largest producer of nuts in America, AgReserves, Inc., in Salt Lake City, is Mormon-owned. So are the Bonneville International Corp., the country's 14th largest radio chain, and the Beneficial Life Insurance Co., with assets of $1.6 billion. There are richer churches than the one based in Salt Lake City: Roman Catholic holdings dwarf Mormon wealth. But the Catholic Church has 45 times as many members. There is no major church in the U.S. as active as the Latter-day Saints in economic life, nor, per capita, as successful at it. "

And indeed if I were the finance clerk of my LDS ward, I too would believe in the LDS Santa Claus and a "pretty, talking, thingies named Moroni!!!

As long as Islamicists believe a Jewish State in the Middle East is unacceptable to God the Israelis will be justified in exterminating the Muslim people it can get its hands on.

JEWS AND ARABS in America have come together in many ways. They do not need a lecture from others. As to the conflict: Office of the Spokesman
Washington, DC
December 30, 2008

The United States Contributes $85 Million for Humanitarian Assistance to Palestinian Refugees

The United States announces its plan to contribute $85 million to the U.N. Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA) for its 2009 appeals. Of the $85 million announced today, $25 million will go to UNRWA’s Emergency Appeal for the West Bank and Gaza; $60 million to UNRWA’s General Fund.

Through this contribution to the Emergency Appeal for the West Bank and Gaza, Palestinian refugees, who comprise 70 percent of the population in Gaza and 30 percent in the West Bank, will receive urgently needed food, medicines, and other critical humanitarian assistance. The contribution to UNRWA’s General Fund will support the provision of basic and vocational education, primary health care, and relief and social services to more than 4.6 million registered Palestinian refugees in Gaza, the West Bank, Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria.

The United States reiterates its deep concern about the escalating violence in Gaza and commends UNRWA’s important work meeting the emergency needs of civilians in Gaza at this very difficult time. We hold Hamas fully responsible for breaking the ceasefire and for the renewal of violence. We call on all concerned to protect innocent lives and to address the urgent humanitarian needs of the people of Gaza, by facilitating necessary access into Gaza for UNRWA and other humanitarian organizations. We also encourage other states to provide urgently needed funding to UNRWA and other international organizations providing lifesaving care to civilians in Gaza.

The United States is UNRWA’s largest bilateral donor, and contributed $184.68 million to UNRWA towards its 2008 Appeals, including $99.87 million for UNRWA’s General Fund and $84.81 million for its emergency appeals for Lebanon, the West Bank, and Gaza. The United States plans to provide additional funding for UNRWA's 2009 appeals in the future.
2008/1105
Released on December 30, 2008

Patel! Wake up ! Muslims are encouraged to no longer embrace terrorism, or, be terrorized in return. THEIR choice. Don't worry about the Jews. They'll take care of themselves, without your help.

In other words, manoo, you support the killing of innocent Israelis in suicide bomber attacks? A little truth and honesty on the Palestinian side would be helpful as well. Palestinians have played the martyr card for so long it's a public policy. Hamas knew Israel would not tolerate a constant barrage of missiles, and even when they had been given gaza, instead of building, they destroyed. Gaza had factories, infrastructure, working people- people who elected them in a democratic election. And what do they do? they stupidly use the money to buy missiles, and use everything in their power to destroy what they have. even the people of Gaza are sick of the whole thing. And you think this is the way for a government to act toward its own people? whine about Israel all yo want. Someday, when you are more interested in real solutions, take responsibility for the contributions the Palestinians have made toward their own situation. You made your bed, now you'll have to lie in it.

And FYI- no, I don't think Israel should have attacked like this. Israel has made its mistakes- many times. Children and innocent citizens are not acceptable collateral damage. That goes for Israeli children and innocents too, by the way Manoo. Remember that the next time a suicide bomber blows up a bus or a cafe.

ccnl,

First you said:
“From: lds-mormon.com/time.shtml”

Then you said:
“My cited link is from Time Magazine. “

Even if the non-Mormon site lds-mormon.com/ was “accurately” quoting time magazine, my statement stands: believing a non-LDS source is “like going to a Muslim web site to get historical information on Israel”.

After this last election cycle, It has been proven that the vast majority of the media has an agenda that prevents accurate reporting. Even the extreme left-wingers don’t trust them any more.

They interweave truth with lies to try to give their reporting credence, the worst kind of lying. You will find Hamas does the same thing when talking about Israel.

I can tell you this; I am the finance clerk for my ward, and the article you quoted is extremely misleading. It appears you have fallen into their trap.

How silly of you.

If you want the truth try http://www.lds.org or http://jesuschrist.lds.org

What are you so afraid of?

Mark

The best solution:
Since US is the staunchest supporter of Israel and since there appears to be a consensus that without the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, there will be a significantly higher chance of peace in the world, why in the world has not anyone thought about relocating Israelis into the US where they be more than welcome; we could offer them equivalent land in any part of the US, including Alaska. where it is much cooler than tel aviv. And they would find themselves in the midst of friends and unconditional love instead of the opposite situation.

Eboo Patel is fond of Susan Sontag. Sontag said" The white race is the cancer of human history." That is also what was said in Rev Wright's Church.

I believe as a God spirited child that all religions as when they visited the baby Jesus at birth, should now practice what they have been teaching about. What better time to teach tolerance, understanding and good samaritanship. Every ethnic or religious body, understands friendship, the feeding and sheltering of the poor. They should unite, to change some of the most derelict actions, that have permeated their lives and start with the living conditions and job situations first. Put you money in good causes instead of separatist and isolated ministering. Their should be a National Religion Day, where All come and discuss the things of life with the people.

the isolated religions, know who they are, as God does. For trouble hits all religious or non religious people, but we all have life and the pursuit of happiness, in common.
Another common purpose is to have peace long enough to at least educate this neglected population, destined to take the reigns of your countries, in elections. So now is the time for the elders, who have shown us plenty of war, to show how to reside in peace and tolerance of other's religious beliefs, which aren't to be mocked.

After all the hooplah over the Muhammad thing in the Middle East and the POPE, you should know that respect of one's beliefs, is often the joiner of humanity.

Just call up each other's organizations, and put together a tv site with both religions giving message to the masses. And leave the arrogance at home, it never worked in church or temple anyway. "Braggadociery" and all that, you know.

A firm foundation for peace, is the strong foundation of life and friendship.

Mark, Mark, Mark,

My cited link is from Time Magazine.

The information on your referenced websites is a rehash of LDS mumbo jumbo created by one of the great con artists, i.e. Joseph Smith.

But it is a free country, if you want to believe that a "pretty, talking, thingie" named Moroni actually talked to Joe Smith, so be it. A lot of kids still believe in Santa Claus!!!

To all hypocrates - double face monsters.

Stop creating lame excuses and your "twisted" historical facts.

We dont need long complex lessons and explainations but simple truth and honesty.

Israel is using force to deny the palestanians their legitimate right to freedom.

The resentment from Hamas commenced as a disprate move when they failed to get justice from UN and the major world peace brokers.

USA supports Israel at all costs and do not act as an impartial broker for peace in the middle east.

Suppressing people with force will not solve the problem at all rather you will see different shapes of resentment.

Many professional comment writers "N Faith"
are narrow-minded pigmys who weeps on the attack on two jews in mombai while over-sight the plight of defenseless people of Gaza. Dont you see how the small children are being killed in ruthless Israeli bombings.

If there is no peace for the oppressed people of the world, there will be no peace for the oppressors too - rest assure.

[ rosh_az :
sparrow4- yes you are right, jews did not simply descend on palestine. i was talking about the state of israel, developed in 1948, when the un approved the partioning of palestine.]

sp4- the battle over partitioning began after WW 1, so any discussion of the establishment of the state of Israel must include all of the history because you can't understand the context without all the history.

[rosh_az:what does any of the injustice done to the jews in europe have to do with the present situation and to the discussion topic at that?]

sp4- Again, everything. I suggest you go back and read a lot more about WW II, its effect on Jews and the subsequent effect on the Middle east situation.

[rosh_az:also, i have never claimed to speak knowledgeably about israelis or palestinians. i was only voicing my opinion and commenting on your post like most people here.]

And indeed i am voicing mine. You seem to condemn Israel out of hand, and you do so without knowing all the facts or context. I'm not insulting your intelligence but frankly your statements make you sound like someone who decided these things based on newspaper headlines, not a thorough reading.

marcedward- you might also be interested in reading the israeli news website - www.haaretz.com. within Israel, the views are much more nuanced and many Israelis are appalled by what is happening.

[Marcedward:You seem well versed in one side of the facts re: founding of Israel. While I am no historian, I am really interested in the subject. I'm knowledgable enough to understand that you can't know a historical 'fact' without reading multiple sources, and even then one has to use one's own judgement trying to get an idea of where the truth lies. Palestine/Israel's history is one of the most distorted I've ever come across. Just for fun, go by wikipedia and do a search on 'Palestine', and enjoy reading the two set's of conflicting facts going back to the 19th century. Both sets of facts cannot be true, and obviously different sides adhere to their own truths.]

Actually I've studied both sides and there is plenty of blame to go around, including quite a bit left over for Britain, the US and the UN. Both sides committed atrocities, both sides made mistakes- I've said that many times on other threads and this one. There is no one truth, and why should you be surprised when both sides present 2 very different views? (FYI WIKI is not a reliable source. It's helpful, but it is written by volunteers and anyone can post an article. If something is deemed inaccurate, the post can be edited. for fun read what professors tell their students about using WIKI to write papers and use for research).

[marcedward-Why didn't the Israelis allow the Palestinians to return after they fled? Is it unreasonable for people to flee a battlefield? I tend to advocate for the Palestinian side because that side of the argument is almost unknown in the USA]

-for many years the Palestinians lived on promises made by the Arab states to wipe out Israel and were told not to go back. the camps were not set up by Israel- and were not within the original borders, but just outside. The palestinians were refused entrance to those countries because the Arab states wanted to keep them in place, and highly visible to promote their cause. What other group can you name that has not emigrated to new lives in hopes of return for 60 years? Because they weren't given the freedom to leave.

Israel did give them humanitarian aid, medical care, allowed them to work in Israel.
Conditions in the west Bank are awful- despite years of Arab money being poured into the hands of Arafat and his government. that money was never invested in making a better life for the palestinians- arafat spent it on weapons and when he died he left his wife a millionaire several times over (guess where the money came from?) and this was a "freedom fighter", you say?

You do more than advocate for the Palestinian side- you call Israelis racists, you imply that all the fault is on Israel's side. It's on both sides, and each side keeps perpetuating it. Just don't forget, Israel is also a convenient scapegoat for every problem in the Middle east, and every terrorist cause.

ccnl,

You quote a web site that is not Mormon (lds-mormon.com/)and you believe them?

How silly of you. That’s like going to a Muslim web site to get historical information on Israel.

If you want the truth try http://www.lds.org or http://jesuschrist.lds.org

Mark

TO MISSMAY -

The Jews and the Arabs have never joined against a common enemy. They either resisted separately, such as in the Aryan invasions circa 2000 BC or joined Machiavellian style with other factions against each other, as in Islamic Spain circa 1000 AD. The only relationships they have had when they lived in the same nation was that one clearly held power and the other was lower status. Although they have prospered together in business agreements, in which both parties gained, they have never contracted for military union.

The greatest possibility for military union would be between Sunnis and Jews (with common business interests) against the Indo-Aryan Persians. That would mean a military union against Hamas (Shiites) aggression by both Palestinians and Jews -- but the other alliance is happening between the factions of Islam against Israel.

In any case, a common enemy of the Jews and Moslems will not change their lack of desire to get along in Israel/Palestine. They both want territorial dominion over the same territory, with the Palestinians claiming the land based on indigenous heritage and the Jews claiming it based on God's Promise and the rationale that they are more competent rulers in this modern complex age we live in.

A better solution than a common enemy is common business interests.

There is a saying that two enemies will only join together when they are confronted by a THIRD. What is the third?

the ones who need a new plan are the islamics.
islam requires killing or converting. ok there is the possibility that one may pay tribute to islamic rulers and not be converted or murdered, but that kind of life is that?
the plain truth is - islam does not want peace, it wants you dead, if your not islamic. how can you possibly reach an accomodation with a group who seeks your death? what can you possible offer them? here is what such a negotiation would be like.
we want to live in peace with you. what do you [the islamics] want?
islamic - we want you dead or to convert to islam?
response - but we dont to be islamic?
islamic - then die.
response - well how many do you want to die for there to be peace?
islamic - we want all of you to die.
response - how many at one time - can we just kill a few of us then wait.
islamic - no waiting - we want all of you dead, NOW!
response - but why cant we live in peace?
islamic - it is the will of allah, NOW DIE OR WE WILL KILL YOU!
now how do you deal with people who believe that you must be islamic or die?
dont tell me that is not the way it is. islam started attacking its neighbors even before they know that anything named islam existed.
islam attacked africia and made a business of the black slave trade.
islam attacked east to india and murdered so many hindu's that the ground ran red with blood and then islamic generals wrote books about their great deeds.
even before the crusades islamics attackes and sacked rome twice. enslaved southern italy, and enslaved sicily.
islam attacked and took over the seat of Christians - turkey and constantanople and now call it istanbul.
they attacked spain and took over. they were stopped by the french, and hence the french epic poem - the song of rolland.
how do you make peace with such people when they are allowed by islam to lie and pretend to engag ein peace with you only until they are strong enough to attack you again.
when you see a mad dog do you ask yourself, how can i make this made dog not bite me or my family? do you ask, what is the root cause of the dog being made and what can i do to make the cause go away and be friends with the dog?
the same goes for islam.
when you see a mad do you kill it before it kills you.

Coexistence cannot occur without a protocol of ethics that is enforceable. There never has been one between the Jews and the Moslems. Ethos has been given its chance, and nothing flowers from it. Yes, the situation is worse because the injustice is widening, not diminutizing. I think we know that Islamic justice and Judaic justice vary -- the Islamic right to predominate and the Jewish right to exist are incontrovertibly opposed. These are demons fighting for power, not the right to get along with each other.

The conflict in the Middle East and Palestine represents "belief" and "faith" systems gone beserk. Civilization does always move on, with or without those who might argue otherwise in one way or another. We Western Civlization types got along pretty well, warts and all, following the Reformation. According to the interpretation of history as it was taught me and learned over many years, wise men associated with the Reformation looked at themselves in the mirror and decided that it was long overdue to sit down, compromise, be honest, and look forward, not backward. They followed,essentially, the Ten Commandments, versions of which are found in most any belief system of the past thosand or so centuries and which work. Think we honestly should be shipping hand held mirrors, especially to the so=called "leadership" of both sides, along with some reading on "common sense". It was the lack of which by too many of the leadership "elite" that resulted in WWI, WWII, the Cold War, and Vietnam and we, the chattering masses on all sides, end up paying the price. It would seem the words of the late Samuel P. Huntington and his "Clash of Civilizations" are coming home to roost.

rmsklar

When the Muslims "take to the street" to protest the 200,000 deaths and the 2,000,000 displaced in Darfur, the 150,000 deaths and the 300,000 displaced in Kurdistan, the occupation of the Western Sahara, the shooting on site of Darfur refugees in Eygpt, the murders in Mumbai, the oppression of Christians in Lebanon, Iraq, and the West Bank, the oppression of the Berber in Morocco and Algeria and the destruction of Hindu, Buddhist and Jewish holy sites, then and only then will I begin to take groups such as CAIR as anything but propaganda groups akin to the Buhn movement (pro-NAZI during the 1930's) in the United States. How can you possibly expect Jewish groups to acknowledge Arab-League propaganda coming from CAIR in face of total and under silence with respect to Darfur!!!!!!!

Worth repeating...Again.

sparrow4- yes you are right, jews did not simply descend on palestine. i was talking about the state of israel, developed in 1948, when the un approved the partioning of palestine.

what does any of the injustice done to the jews in europe have to do with the present situation and to the discussion topic at that?

also, i have never claimed to speak knowledgeably about israelis or palestinians. i was only voicing my opinion and commenting on your post like most people here.

you need to calm down my friend and learn to get your point across without insulting the intelligence of others.

If the Israelis really were out to commit genocide, they have been doing a terrible job of it. In all this fighting, they haven't killed even 1,000 period, and the vast majority were not civilians. Something tells me that a military that phones the people living in apartments in a building that is about to be hit by a rocket targeted at a particular floor, to warn them of what is about to happen, is not going to get the kind of casualties that indicate someone is trying to exterminate the other side.

As for co-existence, the only way that Hamas is willing to allow Isrealis to do this, is with Hamas on the land, and the Israelis under it. I could be wrong, and they just might let some people hang around as Dhimmis, but I doubt that the Israelis are prepared to negotiate based on that as a predetermined outcome.

If any side seems to be looking for the elimination of anyone from all of their lands, it is the Arabs, who rid themselves of almost all their Jews, and who now want to eliminate Israel, where almost all the Jews from the Arab countries went. There aren't any concentration camps in Israel now, but it is a 100 percent certainty that there will be if Hamas gets its way.

Just what kind of coexistence are Jews, or anyone else for that matter, supposed to discuss with a religion that demands the entire world be subjugated to Sharia, and all other faiths be treated as, at best, second class humans. At least Jews and Christians get to live as Dhimmis. Poor Mr. Patel's likely Hindu background makes him a candidate for forced conversion at the pain of death. If you doubt this, try to remember what almost happened to that Afghani who nearly was executed, by an American backed government, just for converting to Christianity. Imagine what it would be like if the Taliban had still be there.

I have heard that Israel should go back to 1967 borders, but I have yet to hear that Hamas would exchange this move for peace.

There never will be a peaceful solution as long as Hamas and Hezbollah exist supported financially by Iran so get used to the drama. As long as Palestine has two heads, Fatah and Hamas, there will be no peace. A house divided against itself cannot stand.

Yo Sparrow
You seem well versed in one side of the facts re: founding of Israel. While I am no historian, I am really interested in the subject. I'm knowledgable enough to understand that you can't know a historical 'fact' without reading multiple sources, and even then one has to use one's own judgement trying to get an idea of where the truth lies. Palestine/Israel's history is one of the most distorted I've ever come across. Just for fun, go by wikipedia and do a search on 'Palestine', and enjoy reading the two set's of conflicting facts going back to the 19th century. Both sets of facts cannot be true, and obviously different sides adhere to their own truths.
re: Government of Israel asking Palestinians to stay in Israel - for arguments sake I'll say you're correct, and because war was coming the Palestinains fled.
Why did the Israelis take all their stuff (I've read accounts of the massive effort to take every stick of furniture and any other property the fleeing Palestinians left behind)?
Why didn't the Israelis allow the Palestinians to return after they fled? Is it unreasonable for people to flee a battlefield? I tend to advocate for the Palestinian side because that side of the argument is almost unknown in the USA, but I'm totally aware that neither side is 'pure', that this isn't a situation where one side is all good and one side is all bad. I am concerned that nobody can reach any kind of deal when each side is coached only in their own 'facts'.
Have a good new year!

Worth repeating:

Hipshot noted:

How best to resolve it?

American Muslims agree to leave the United States in a one-for-one exchange for Jews from Israel. Dismantle Israel. Problem solved!"

Most Excellent!! Eboo pack your bags you are part of the solution!!

I have but one thing to say, in regards to the events that are now occurring in the Palestinian Gaza Strip.
Why do the nations rage and the people suffer? Because the people are not righteous and do not act according to G-d's Holy Word.
A people, once almost exterminated by a vicious and bloodthirsty group of individuals, the Nazi's, have themselves become that which they abhor, "genocidal maniacs," who would destroy a people including innocent men, women and children, for the sake of a piece of land, security and "freedom." How dare they commit such atrocities in the name of a supposedly righteous country? Is the Israeli government so deceived that they cannot see the irony of trying to exterminate a whole race of people, for the sake of a small piece of land? Is this "a mitzvah?" Surely G-d, looks down upon these actions and sees bloodthirsty and demeaning people
trying to exterminate a race of people who have had nothing to do with the troubles.
The US and Israel, demanded free and fair elections, happen in a time frame of their choosing. The Palestinian people fed up with the corruption and waste of the Palestinian Authority,
chose instead to have their government, democratically elected, which elections were watched over carefully by international observers,
made of the only people that gave a damn about their outcome, Hamas. Which organization, opened hospitals, schools and other public service works,
that paid the workers and doctors and teachers on time and in full. This is the second democratically elected government in the Middle East and the only "Arab," democratically elected government in the world. And yet, despite the outcome of the election, despite the fact that the US and Israel, forced the Palestinian people to have these elections, these two obstinate and obdurate administrations will not have truck with the duly elected representatives of the Palestinian people. Now who are the rogue states?
Now who are the international criminals, which will not obey the resolutions of the UN Security Council? Certainly not the Palestinians, but the US and Israeli governments.
We, the people, are now faced with the choice to either listen to the rhetoric of our governments or start speaking for ourselves and commit to action that will bring about change in the Middle East.

rosh_az- you obviously have a very limited knowledge of the history of the region, and of the state of Israel. Jews did not simply one day descend en masse on Palestine. The situation was set in motion long before 1948, in fact as far back as the 19th century. After the first world war the allies redrafted many of the borders in the Middle east, and this redrafting has happened several times. Many, many Jews already owned land in the area- some for 100's of years. And lastly- how strange that with the entire Arab world fighting them, Israelis still won. (see also Yom Kippur war, 6 Day war, etc.)

60 years is a long time to keep fighting the same war over and over. we so love to talk about the injustice of the other side. No one- and I will repeat- no one went to bat for the Jews of Europe. Everything they managed to get, all the reparations, whatever restorations of art, property, money- all of the was fought for by Jews. Did anyone notice the Swiss Governemnt getting up off of all the German Jewish money it held onto until it was forced to? Did the Vatican ever give up the Jewish children it "saved" by converting them? Have Museums rushed to give back artwork to the Jewish families it had been stolen from? Have European countries given back property wrested from the Jews (oh yes- reparations. Mostly forced.)

So please- don't claim to speak intelligently or knowledgeably of Jews, Palestinians, or the Middle East until you can speak in full sentences instead of headlines ripped from pundits.

A wide open entry into blogosphere. Well I don't think the question posed by the moderator is worthy of a response. You are holding Jews up to some higher authority when we are not any different except for our religious beliefs which are I understand the formative stone of both Christians and Muslims. There is no need for American Jews to pursue a peace. It is the problem of Jews in the Middle East. Of course this is not a problem for Muslims anywhere since except for exceptions I know of no Arab Muslims who genuinely inspire peace.

On to the next war. I opine that the Hamas is really an amalgamation of Hezbollah, Fatah, Mujahadeem, Al Qaeda, and an assortment of Arabs including the Revolutionary Iranian Guard.

As to there whereabouts? I think the IAF knew what the Hezbollah were up to in the summer of '06. They hid supplies in the tunnels. What else does one hide in tunnels when there are bunker busters being dropped on your head like tomatoes from heaven? Terrorist cells. So I opine and this is merely one man's opinion that tens of thousands of Hamas were willing to die in the tunnels and inadvertently they were helped so to speak on their way to Muslim headquarters in the sky.

Don't bother to junk write to me Mr. Afganese. I don't read your replies. Too hostile.

Peace. Shalom. Aloha.

This conflict has been allowed to drag on for decades, because America could not be bothered - for domestic political reasons - to seriously tackle it. For most of that period the Palestinian leadership had a largely "secular" orientation. Now religious Islamic fanatics are mostly in charge. The conflict is harder than ever to resolve thanks to American procrastination.
If Israel wants to be left in peace it should plainly offer to return to the borders of 1967 (ie: Get out of the West Bank and East Jerusalem) and stop building settlements on what remains of Palestinian land. If such an offer is rejected, then - and only then - is Israel entitled to play the "innocent victim" in the long, sad, bloody conflict.

There is someone that really can talk?

Not as long as the Palestinians vote in Hamas.

One problem you didn't address has to do with the press. As long as the press reflexively contacts the "usual suspects" and retails their usual answers, these groups will appear monolithic and single-minded in press coverage. If you'd taken the time to contact J Street, the New Israel Fund, or some other progressive Jewish group, you would have swiftly discovered that Jewish opinion is far from monolithic. You could also afford to make more than one phone call to Muslim groups. Of course, on both side the diversity is largely in smaller and newer groups, but ignoring them stifles the variety and change that both communities have to offer.

TIME TO TAKE THOSE CAPTURED 'SUICIDE BOMBERS' AND PUT THEM ON TV ++++ WITH MAJOR COVERAGE ++++ SAYING THEY'D BEEN 'TRICKED.'

BY ANALOGY TO VIETNAM, UNTIL THOSE IN POWER STARTED HAVING THEIR SONS & DAUGHTERS SERVE AS SUICIDE BOMBERS [IN VIETNAM, IT WAS THE DRAFT] THOSE IN POSITIONS OF POWER IN THE ISLAMIC WORLD WILL CONTINUE TO USE ++++ CHEAP LABOR ++++ I.E., SOMEONE ELSE'S SON OR DAUGHTER ++++ TO DO THE DIRTY WORK. AND THEY WILL SEEK OUT VICTIMS TO CARRY THEIR SUICIDE ATTACKS AMONGST THE INJURED.

DERANGED INDIVIDUALS, ESPECIALLY DUE TO DRUG OR ALCOHOL ABUSE, OR OTHER MAJOR LIFE TRAUMAS ALWAYS RESERVE SUICIDE AS THEIR 'LAST ESCAPE' FROM REALITY -- UNTIL THEY REALIZE THAT SUICIDE IS NO ESCAPE, OR THEY, ONCE AGAIN CHOOSE LIFE.
--------------------
GIVING UP ONE'S LIFE FOR ANOTHER IS PERHAPS NOBLE, BUT IT IS NOT AS NOBLE AS LEARNING HOW TO FORGIVE AND THEN MOVE ON.

FORGIVENESS IS THE GREATEST HUMAN ATTRIBUTE, FOR IN A WORLD OF PERFECT JUSTICE, OR PERFECT KARMA, DESTRUCTION IS THE RESULT.

PERHAPS THIS IS WHY THE SONS AND DAUGHTERS OF THE SAME GOD, HAVE FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS NOT LIVED IN PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND AS RADICAL FORMS OF ISLAM WERE EXPORTED TO THE REST OF THE WORLD, THEREIN CONFLICT HAS BEEN BREWED ANEW.

Shame on those who comamorate holucast and comit war crimes against defenseless inocent citizens of Gaza

sparrow4 wrote: That is precisely not what Zionism is about. In fact when Israel declared statehood, it asked that area Arabs remain and become part of the country. The Palestinians were advised by Arab countries to leave while they would take care of Israel
-----------

that's mighty generous of the jews to allow the arabs to remain in their own country after they declared statehood. and i guess since other arab countries advised the palestinians to leave while they take care of israel, they should have done so without hesitation. so for example, if the sunni population is kicked out of iran, is it ok for them to create a state of their own in america?

the bottom line is that the jews created israel because they had nowhere else to go and they did this with brutal military force. the palestinians must learn to get along with their neighbors otherwise civilians will be the ones who pay.

A plaque on both their houses. Religion is the greatest blight visited on humanity in history. It incites division and hatred, retards the progress of science and imepedes any possibility of rational discourse. Jews and Muslims may follow different faiths, but they share the overwhelming tendency of sanctimoniousness, hypocrisy and intolerance. Of course, at least they're not as bad as Christians.

"It is necessary for salvation for every human creature to be subject to the Roman pontiff." - Pope Boniface VII.

"No, I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God." - George H.W. Bush, August 27, 1987.

Who doesn't want peace? Well, Hamas, Hezballah, Al Qaeda, Ahmadinejad. These organization or people represent millions of supporters. In fact it would be safe to say that the numbers of supporters and sympathizers of these organizations far outnumber the population of Jews the world over.

The point is the Jews just want to exist. Wether they live in the US, Europe or when given (then fought to retain) a very small piece of mostly desert and swamp land about the size of Rhode Island.

There is no negotiating with people whose main purpose is to destroy you. What you are saying here is like, "there they go again, those Christians and lions, when will they ever get along"

Until Muslims accept the existence of Jews and albeit the fact of the State of Israel, nothing is going to change.

Jews really want peace and are willing to give up territory. Let their actions speak for themselves. They pulled out of Gaza and gave the people there the opportunity of self government. The opportunity to build an economy, infrastructure, institutions etc. It has been over 3 years. In another part of the Arab world, Dubai has built a small metropolis in Gaza they have a lot of homemade rockets.

Why is this hate for Israel so paramount? For that matter, why does Hamas think that raining down rockets indiscriminately at Israelis is going to destroy the country. At the rate they are going, they might be able to achieve this goal in about 2000 years. Their methods are just unsound.

When the Palestinians accept Israel's right to exist and endure and the greater Moslem and Islamic world does as well. Then the conflict will be over and resolutions can be realized.

The problem is when the media and governments portray this conflict somehow as evenhanded. By doing this, it is a disservice to both.

So, I say to you, "World Media and Governments Need New Playbook On Mideast Conflict."

The fighting is already on our doorstep.

Religion - the crux of almost all of mankind's efforts to kill one another.

Qur'an says that even while debating with people of the Book, debate in the best possible manner. Thus Qur'an says, "And argue not with the people of the Book except by what is best save such of them as act unjustly." (29:46).

Racist generalizations about Jewish or Palestinian people are, sadly, made possible through the failure of our news media to give any attention whatsoever to real efforts for peace and coexistence. The media in general makes a mockery of people who oppose war and paints them as lunatics! Those attitudes are reflected here in these posts. Can you imagine: if you prefer peace and love to war and hate you are branded a lunatic!

Well, it's disheartening, but it won't stop us. Here's a few things for the small-minded among you to consider:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rt6-1ZxrB6c
http://www.marcgopin.com/

Neither religion is exactly running a program of attraction. I don't want anything to do with any god that has it's worshipers killing people.

mnaseem95 - get a grip. Get real. Don't blame jews for what Muslim terrorist did- the first step is learning to take responsibility.

there are plenty of us Jews who are far from happy with the situation in gaza. As much as I hate Hamas, I think Olmert and barack have gone insane. Muslim "collateral damage" is no more acceptable to me than Israeli "collateral damage." Hamas builds its ranks by promoting the destruction of Israel- its their best marketing tool (actually, it's been quite a popular concept for most Arab countries). Israel, out of frustration or sheer stupidity, has decided to go into overdrive, and reuse the old failed policies of the past. If stupidity were a biofuel, Israel and Hamas could provide electric power to run the world for the next 3000 years.

Until one side or the other decides to act like responsible, intelligent grown ups it will never change.

marcedward, very often you write well thought out, reasonable posts. But your flagrant antisemitism undercuts everything. True- Islam's goal is not the eradication of Jews. But much of the Arab world has certainly decided that Jews and Zionists are one and the same and must be destroyed.That's a fact- I've read far too much Muslim hate messages using Jew and Israeli interchangeably. You also wrote;"Zionism is of course racist, because it seeks to ethnicly and religiously clense one are of people (non-Jews). You do know that the Zionists have also been cleaning out the Christians as well, right?"

That is precisely not what Zionism is about. In fact when Israel declared statehood, it asked that area Arabs remain and become part of the country. The Palestinians were advised by Arab countries to leave while they would take care of Israel. "cleansing" an area involves the wholesale slaughter of an entire people, viciously and methodically simply because they are who they are. don't be a fool and mistake the political and territorial battle for a racist one. If indeed Israel was about racially cleansing the area, there would be no Arab citizens of members of Knesset.

Let's not make a bad situation even worse by misinformation and misunderstanding.

I believe it does not matter what faith you believe in , and or where do you live. But if you have any respect for human life, killing of people should be condemned. Unarmed people are being killed in a cnflict not created by them , and not of their choice. It shoud be a matter of grave concern for the Suppper powers , civilized Western deomcracies and oil rich Arab States. Gaza killings have been going on for days now , the poorest of the poor , in a land strip in the Middle East. It is imperative upon us in U.S to demand from the incoming new Administration, to redouble their efforts to bring the parties once again to a continued negotiations . Since we have tried and negotiated or imposed all kinds of solutions, I believe that there must be a new several phased approach toward a policy of comprehensive peace in that region. A new strategy for a lasting peace for the Arab - Israel disputes. U. S. with its Arab friends, Europeans and Israel should start working for one State, based on one man one vote for all the people in phases of smaller trust building steps. If and when this goal of united Arab - Israel people's State in the Land of old Palestine is ever achieved , it will overcome most of the disputes in the region. Understandably, there there will be opposition , specially from interest groups opposed to peace between Arabs and Israel. But nothing has been easy between Arabs and Israel ever. This is their final destiny , peace for both the peoples.

Volkmare, Volkmare, Volkmare,

Again, you have been brainwashed by the Mormon prophets/"profits". The Mormon god is the mighty dollar as noted below:

Mormonism is a business/religious cult based on Joseph Smith's hallucinations which has bought respectability with a $30 billion business empire, the BYU "mission matured" football team and a great choir.

From: lds-mormon.com/time.shtml

"The first divergence between Mormon economics and that of other denominations is the tithe. Most churches take in the greater part of their income through donations. Very few, however, impose a compulsory 10% income tax on their members. Tithes are collected locally, with much of the money passed on informally to local lay leaders at Sunday services. "By Monday," says Elbert Peck, editor of Sunstone, an independent Mormon magazine, the church authorities in Salt Lake City "know every cent that's been collected and have made sure the money is deposited in banks." There is a lot to deposit. Last year $5.2 billion in tithes flowed into Salt Lake City, $4.9 billion of which came from American Mormons."

"Members of the church celebrate the Lord's Supper with water rather than wine or grape juice. They believe their President is a prophet who receives new revelations from God. These can supplant older revelations, as in the case of the church's historically most controversial doctrine: Smith himself received God's sanctioning of polygamy in 1831, but 49 years later, the church's President announced its recision. Similarly, an explicit policy barring black men from holding even the lowest church offices was overturned by a new revelation in 1978, opening the way to huge missionary activity in Africa and Brazil. "

Bottom line: Mormonism is a business cult using religion as a front and charitable donations and volunteer work to advertise said business.

flyersout :

You have failed to realize on thing:

"The Jew GOD. The Arab GOD. The
Catholic GOD. The Baptist GOD.
The Mormen GOD."

…Are all the same god.

The difference is, the first 4 either pick and choose which scriptures they will follow, a faith of convenience, or write their own.

The Mormons do not. They follow the entire bible, not just the parts that are convenient.

Mark

Ps: By the way, it is spelled "Mormon".

2009 and still no one trusts a flying Muslim; People in general still do not trust Islam. I get stared at whenever I fly and I know what the stare is about. I also get pulled aside for "special" checking even though I may be travelling with my 4 year old. My 4-year old also gets extra padding by security. I often wonder if the distrust will ever go away, I know it wont any time soon. What will it take for Muslims to gain trust from the rest of the world? Every time the talkers and the inter-faith Muslims may seem to make gains a major event takes place. The recent Mumbai incident took the scholars and the keyboard warriors along with CAIR back several years. Dialog and interfaith is not the answer, its hatred that needs to be contained.

The insatiable hatred Muslims harbor towards the Jews is noteworthy. It's very obvious Muslims hate Jews more than the other way around. The human that hates always is the greater looser. Pure unadulterated Hatred for Jews by Muslims is the root cause of misery for the many by standing Muslims. They bear the brunt of wrath unleashed by the Jewish backlash. The little child caught in the crossfire does not understand why she bleeds or why she hurts so much.

Happy New Year!

Arif

georgedixon writes
'It is simple but impossible....Islam must renounce the goal of destroying Israel and Jews in general.'

Islam has never had a goal of destroying Jews, that's been the goal of Christians. Ignorant much?

Robert2008
'It is hypocrisy on steroids to claim that Israel is racist for being a Jewish state'

Zionism is of course racist, because it seeks to ethnicly and religiously clense one are of people (non-Jews). You do know that the Zionists have also been cleaning out the Christians as well, right?

'The racists are the ones who won’t accept Israel’s unique Jewish identity in this sea of Islam.'

How about you give your home over to Muslims or Jews or Hindus without compensation and live in a refugee camp? What that doesn't sound like a good idea? If losing your home for no legal reason and living without any compensation isn't good for you, why should it be good for Palestinians?

With regard to the idea to which you originally spoke, I begin by telling you that I am neither Muslim nor Jew. I am of Irish ancestry and, as such, witnessed similar hatred between Catholics and Protestants which, as I am sure you know, goes back for centuries and also has as much to do about who took land from whom as about religion. In my younger years, I too would have said there would never be peace among these two groups. But I did notice that they got along fine here in the U.S. And then there was a program to being young children to live with Americans of the other faith and they found out that these people were not the devils that they were purported to be back home. Getting to know the other is what is most needed. Of course that was not sufficient. But it was a start. What if American Jews and Muslims got together to set up a similar program to contradict the hate messages with which these kids are bombarded? Maybe it would not work, but it could be a start. It is hard to hate people you know. I know I was blessed to grow up on an integrated block and when I was in college and the Civil Rights movement began, I heard people ask “can the races live together?” My reaction was “well, we always did.” I found out most of the people who are so prejudiced against black people do not know any. I suspect that it is the same in this case.

I know American Jews and Muslims who are very friendly – played on the same tennis team in high school. There was never a problem. People like these could make a start. Now, as I said, that is not enough. But we must start somewhere. From what I understand, President Clinton is much more highly regarded in Ireland than he is here for what he did to help broker the peace. And, with that peace came something else. Check out the change in Ireland’s prosperity since his help with the negotiating. Their biggest exports used to be people.

This could be the fate of the poverty struck people in the Middle East. I have no idea how much a rocket costs, but I do know if the money they are spending on weapons were put to good use, the people would be a lot better off. And it multiplies. Not only do you save money not buying weapons, but also you do not have to replace things the other side destroys on your side. Now Clinton may have had unique bona fides because he was a Protestant president who had spent part of his life at Catholic schools. But surely in this great country we can come up with a negotiator who would be equally trusted by both sides.

If Paisley and the IRA could somehow come to peace despite their mistrust and name calling, there is hope. Let us as Americans at least start and if it takes a generation, so be it. But the longer we wait to start, the longer it will take to solve.

Hipshot noted:

"How best to resolve it?

American Muslims agree to leave the United States in a one-for-one exchange for Jews from Israel. Dismantle Israel. Problem solved!"

Most Excellent!! Eboo pack your bags you are part of the solution!!

The current populations: (Muslim population in the USA is not known exactly. The following estimates have been published (see Wikipedia);

1.1 million (2001) City University of New York - American Religious Identification Survey [0.5% of national adult population][36]

1.6 million (2000) Glenmary Research Center [0.5% of national population][37]

1.8 million (2007) 0.6% of population (2007 est.) The World Factbook[38]

1.9 million (2001) American Jewish Committee [0.6% of national population][39]

2.0 million (2000) Hartford Institute for Religious Research [0.7% of national population][40]

2.4 million (2007) Pew Research Center[41][42]

4.7 million (2005) Encyclopædia Britannica Book
of the Year [1.5% of national population][43]

6-7 million (2001) Council on American-Islamic
Relations - The Mosque in America: A National Portrait[44]

6.7 million (1997) J. Ilyas Ba-Yunus [2.2% of national population][45]

7 to 8 million (2008) Newsweek[46]

Population of Israel - (Dec 2008)
Total: 7,373,000 [1]

So if one assumes the Newsweek estimate of the number of Muslims in the USA is correct the 1 for 1 switch will work quite well.

And note, religious and historical claims to Palestine by both sides are mostly myth.

It is simple but impossible....Islam must renounce the goal of destroying Israel and Jews in general.

Islam must change, which it institutionally cannot, or the strife will continue....ergo the strife will continue.

It's hopeless to try to get
the various religions in the
world to "resolve" their conflicts.
It does of course provide
fodder for religion columnists
to write about.

The fact is that the religious
GODS have themselves been at
war forever. Why would one expect
their followers not to follow
suit ?

The Jew GOD. The Arab GOD. The
Catholic GOD. The Baptist GOD.
The Mormen GOD. All the Oriental
GODs.......... Thousands, ad
infinitum.

P.S. - GOD bless you Richard Dawkins !!!!

Bombings everywhere from Africa to Asia and the usual perpetrators are muslim extremists like the Hamas, Jemah Islamiah, etc. These people have only one language and that is "to fight to the death".

The Middle East muslim world should look at their religion coz it will usher them to Doomsday. Their wish could be granted. They will fight to their death. Sadly, almost all of them will meet their death.

"So let me get this straight. Both sides are saying that they need to be supported now more than ever. Both sides are congratulating themselves for contributing to their respective causes . . ."
What they really need to get straight is the fact that they are all Semites with similar language and traditions. The only thing that really separates "them" is their respective insistence that their god is great--greater than all gods.
And this is the reason for nearly all violence among men these days: It stems not specifically from who should own a disputed piece of land, from who was the first to toss a bomb or who is more innocent than the other. Rather, who's god should prevail.
Peace will only come to the violent among us when it is recognized that there are lots of gods with equal standing among humans past and present or, more accurately, that there are no gods.
Since the worship of an idol--or no idol at all-- should be strictly a private matter, agree upon this notion and peace in the Middle East becomes a rational concept. Without coming to this understanding universally, hate and violence among those with the greater god is sure to continue.

The leaders and some of the inhabintant in this area of the world are without Christ in their lives. They are blind to His teachings, and do not understand the importance of praying for one's enemies and forgiving each other. Hatred breeds hatred. Perhaps they should be taught about Ghandi and the efforts he took on behalf of the Indian people.

Resolution for peace and unity should be in the hands of all Middle Eastern countries to decide, not just for American politicians who are influenced and led by the strings of the American Jewish League for Israel and the American-Israel Friendship League or the Muslim League.

I have come to the realization of accepting the acts of genocide will continue on for years to come. Unfortunately, this is no different than Darfur or other regions of the world. Not even in the U.S. can crime against mankind be completely stopped.

Every jew who thinks this Gaza offensive is wrong or even ineffective for Peace should speak out. After all the horrific coverage of this event. Stereotypes are inaccurate, misleading and get in the way of equal representation and Peace. There are Muslim groups, in the UK where i livewho have rallied against Anti Semitism and jews who think this offensive is a bad idea. All three parties agreed to talk earlier in the year. The truce reduced casualties.what have you got to lose? Besides does what is happening now look like Peace to you? NB If it makes a difference I am a catholic.

Mr. Patel:

I admire the fact that you make a real effort to bridge gaps. But, based on the comments here, the IP conflict is just as hopeless as it ever was, and, just to make things really dangerous, Israel now has the fourth largest nucleur arsenal on the planet.

Israel wants land outside its legal borders. The Palestinians will never make peace until Israel gives up the land. Palestinians want the right of return. Israel will never make peace involving a Palestinian right of return. There is no common ground. There is no agreed upon set of facts. There is nothing but blood lust on both sides.

The U.S. has never been an honest broker in the IP conflict and probably never will be. There are many things we could do but we won't. I am 61 years old, and I do not believe that I will see anything constructive toward peace in my remaining life.

I totally agree with the sentiments expressed in this column. Neither side is making friends right now, and what is going on is an escalation that benefits no one. What I find most discouraging, however, is the number of people on both sides who refuse to consider the idea of making peace. Yet that refusal is also not new. Anwar Sadat was assassinated by an Egyptian, Yitzhak Rabin by an Israeli. Both men were dedicated to finding SOME solution to the conflict, yet their deaths were celebrated as victories by their own radical elements. Then again, Ghandi was assassinated by a Hindu.

We all have grievances, legitimate and otherwise. The time has come to recognize that unless we can find some kind of middle ground, there can be no peace.

As an American Jew, I can honestly say that I long ago lost patience with the uncompromising dogmatists on BOTH sides of this conflict.

We have COMMON interests on this planet that affect everyone. It is time to find some kind of solution that everyone can agree to and move on.

THE NAME OF THE GAME IS TERRORISTS,AND THE GAME IS TO DISARM PAKISTAN AND IRAN,THIS IS THE ONLEY DREAM JEWS HAVE,AND GRABING MOOR LAND AND HOLD IT,JEWS STARTED WITH 9/11 USA INVASED AFGHANSTAN,PLAIN WAS THAT NATO AND USA WILL MOVE ON AND INVADE PAKISTAN AND QUICKLY TACK THE NUKES AND GET OUT,BUT BUSH HAD SOME OTHER PLAINS AND INVADED IRAQ,MEANTIME IRAN IS GATTING SRONGER AND STRONGER,AND USA VOULD NOT INVADE PAKISTAN OR BOMB IRAN,PAKISTAN ARMY AND ISI MUST HAVE TOLD USA IF U TRY TO INVAD PAKISTAN WE WILL SET ALL THE M,EAST OIL ON FIRE,AND THE AZARY OIL FIELDS R IN PAKISTANI MESILE RANG,THAY WILL BE ON FIRE AS WELL,ALL THE M,EAST OIL AND AZARY OIL ON FIRE,WILL TURN M,EAST AND SOUTH ASIA IN TO A HELL ON EARTH,THE LARG PART OF THE WORLD WILL GO IN TO DARKNESS,AND ALL THE WORLD WILL PAY THE PRICE,SO USA AND NATO DID NOT WANTED TO INVADE PAKISTAN OR BOMB IRAN,SO JEWS HAD TO CHANGE THE PLAIN,AS IN SOUTH ASIA PEOPLE THOUT HINDUS R GOING TO MAKE PEACE WITH THE PEOPLE OF SOUTH ASIA AND HELP TO BUILD THE NEW PEACE FULL SOUTH ASIA FOR PEOPLE OF SOUTH ASIA,BUT JEWS WITH HINDUS WERE PLANING SOMETHING ALS,JEWS NOW THE HINDUS HATE FOR MUSLIMS OF PAKISTAN,SO THE JEWS TOOK FULL CONTROLE OF HINDUS,GET HINDUS READY TO GO TO WAR WITH PAKISTAN,FOOLS AND USED AND ABUSED HINDUS FAIL RIGHT INTO THE JEW TRAP,THAY BROUGHT UP BOMBY 9/11 TO PUSH THE HINDUS TO GO TO WAR WITH PAKISTAN,BUT WE MUSLIMS OF SOUTH ASIA R NOT SLEEPING,WE NEW THAT HINDUS HAVE BEEN USED BY OUT SIDE PEOPLE TO KILL PEOPLE OF SOUTH ASIA ALL THRUE THE HISTORY,ONES AGAIN THE USED AND ABUSED HINDUD OF SOUTH ASIA R READY TO GET KILLED,AND KILL FOR PEOPLE FROM OUT SIDE SOUTH ASIA,PEOPLE OF PAKISTAN AND THE ARMY IF THESE CREAPS DO ANY THING STUPID,GIVE THEM ALL U HAVE,HAVE NO MURCEY FOR THE CREAPS OF HISTORY,HINDUS WILL NAVER LIVE IN PEACE IN SOUTH ASIA,THAY ALWAYS WILL BE USED AND ABUSED,THIS IS IN THERE BLOOD.

Wow, talk about missing the point. judging by the posts we're still shouting talking points. Here's a novel idea, forget what happened last week; Isreal gives the Palestinians an actual viable territory, no stealing of land. Hamas (not the Palestinian people), gives Isreal it's right to existence; problem solved. I think that the Palestinian people are pretty tired of getting killed, as I'm sure are the Israelis.

Of course these two faiths should sit down and speak with each other. The only problem is no one chooses to speak for the Muslim community. It is not the "middle of the road" adherents who are causing these problems, it is the extremists, on both sides. No one can control who issues fatwas and no rationale Muslim leader, to my knowledge, has spoken about about the daily attacks on southern Israel by Hamas rockets. Hamas may be looking for a long term hudna but they still refuse to recognize Israel's right to exist.

How would Americans react if a radical group took over Mexico and began shooting rockets into Texas and Arizona. Would we not respond with our own military power?

Sure these faiths need a new playbook. Perhaps condemnation from Muslim leaders would go a long way to helping Jews feel there is a rational side to Islam. Many Jewish leaders criticize Israel. I have yet to hear Muslems including the Council on Islamic Relations denounce those blind attacks that aim solely at a civilian population.

When the Arab League recognizes Israel's right to exist then we will see a solution. Until this comes to pass it will always be wars and more wars. Simple, sad, but, true.

We have 57 Muslim nations and 1 Jewish nation. Brothers as both have the same father according to the Koran and Torah.

How best to resolve it?

American Muslims agree to leave the United States in a one-for-one exchange for Jews from Israel. Dismantle Israel. Problem solved!

Israel is the oppressor, Israel is the aggressor, Israel is stealing lands and exercising collective punishment on an innocent civilian population. It isn't Palestinians who are stealing land, it isn't Palestinians who are collectively punishing Israeli's, it isn't Palistinians who are the aggressors. Every human rights group in the entire world, WITHOUT EXCEPTION recgonizes and says so...including EVERY JEWISH human rights group. Too answer the question of "(Would you allow people to shoot rockets at you)" I say, "I would shoot rockets at Israeli's if they stole my lands and killed my women and children, absolutely"

It has NOTHING to do with religion and those who use subtrafuge and reduce the situation as such, are demonic, fanatical, fundemental, violent racsists. Jews who uphold the Warsaw getto uprising and yet place innocent Palestinians in a larger more bruttal Gaza getto, the world ain't buying your crazy any longer.

Pretty depressing to start 2009 reading these comments! Eboo is right, of course. There is strong support on both sides for a peaceful two-state solution, and a total end to terrorism and rockets. That is what everyone of good will should strive for. Loud "more of the same" from both sides (as in so many of these comments) can lead only to more death and destruction.

I am frustrated with a few elements outside of the fact that the conflict takes up large resources and time from other issues that deserve attention.

I am sick and tired of this being coined as a religious issue. This was never a peaceful migration into Palestine.

Israel has had the 100 percent support of the USA but still cannot use this help to win peace with its neighbors. Maybe there is something other than a military resolution on Israel’s part.

You cannot fight fire with fire! That makes Israel and their leadership no better than Hamas. And that is not good for the USA or the region which Israel sits.

I am also sick of being the tax payer with no voice on the issue. It is not the United States tax payer that should be supporting religious states unequivocally! We have separation of Church and State for a reason. And this goes against the USA own ideology.

I think it is totally unfair for Jews and Muslims to take up all of this valuable time when many other places in the world need our assistance and deserve it!

Unfortunately, the road Israel has retaliated on has left little room for a future without more of the same.
Sometimes you have to be smarter than your neighbor to win! But the Israeli government and politicians have proven to be no better!

Religion only makes simple issues more problematic and rediculouse!

The real issue is not the relations among different religions, but that of providing justice to the weaker party in our present day civilization.

Fighting and wars is part of human history.
The worrisome question is whether out present civilization is strong enough or not, to despense justice to the weaker party. The answer is unfortunately a big NO.
The law of the jungle prevails and the principle of Might is right proved now and then.
Dark forces within the human beings knows no religion, they talk the language of brutal force.
Whether it is cruel treatment of abu graib prison or Israeli massacre of the palestanians or the attack on jews is mombai - all are acts of using force against the weakers.
Where is Justice?
UNO is crippled with vetos. They are unable to provide justice to the weak parties in international disputes. The individuals in sheer dispration are blowing themselves up, which is responded with more brutal force.
If all matters are going to be solved with force then let us be prepared for more blood shed in the future, and no peace on the face of earth.
To happen otherwise, provide Justice and freedom to the oppressed people and equal economic opportunities to flourish too.

Astoria writes:
In 2006 Palestinian attacks on Israel were cut in half-
from 50 Israeli deaths to 23.
...

After this sustained show of restraint from the Palestinians, instead of returning such peaceful intention in kind- Israel has cut off electricity,...

What RUBBISH. Restraint? The numbers above are Palestinian ATTACKS - read SUICIDE BOMBERS, indiscriminate shooting and rocketing of civilians with NO reason other than to TERRORIZE. They weren't RESTRAINED at all, just intercepted before they could blow up more families having lunch at pizza shops.
How many Israeli suicide bombers targeted Arabs? Has Israel engaged in years of lobbing rockets at random Arab neighborhoods?
What in Hamas' call for MORE suicide bombers don't you understand?

Would you tolerate rockets being shot into your back yard ???

Gaza had a chance to seek investments to improve its lot, but choose instead to become a front for Iranian interest and weapons shipments.

So, who got it wrong ???

Jeez, didn't anyone watch "You Don't Mess With The Zohan"?

Mr. patel is correct. His proposed response is just what is called for, regardless of the political injustices that exist on all sides.

Eboo Patel is either poorly informed or given to oversimplification.

there are plenty of jews who are morally opposed to the the expansionist designs of Israel. And there are plenty of fundamentalist christians and hindus who staunchly support israel's oppression of the palestinians. Who, by the way, are both Muslims and Christians.

Mr. Patel,

You propose the wrong model. You seem to think this is a contest about who is the most aggrieved party. It isn't. Everybody has grievances.

Islamic terrorism is a unique problem, a problem worldwide for Jews, Hindus, Christians, and the Muslims themselves. It won't go away by talking.

Until you can call it Islamic terrorism, you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

To Monte Haun,

It is hypocrisy on steroids to claim that Israel is racist for being a Jewish state.

Saudi Arabia is a Muslim state. Egypt is a Muslim state. Iraq, Syria, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Libya, Mauritania, Morocco, Algeria, Jordan, Yemen, Kuwait, are all Muslim states. So is Somalia, and so is Qatar. And there are several more, not to mention the Muslim state the Palestinians would have if they sued for peace.

The racists are the ones who won’t accept Israel’s unique Jewish identity in this sea of Islam.

And that is why there is a war on.

Mr. Patel,

When American Muslims speak out against Islamic terrorism waged against Jews, instead of whining about "Islamophobia", then let's talk.

Cry havoc, and let slip the dogs of war.

Great sentiments Eboo; I believe its time we who are reasonable, have respect for others, and desire peace and harmony took over from the extremists wherever they may be.
We do not need them!! there are enough of us, Jewish, Muslim. Christian, Hindus, Buddhists, of other religions or of no religion at all who love our kids enough to want to leave them a better world. Lets say NO to killers on ALL sides, there are more of us than there is of them; we are much more powerful than they are. Its time for DECENT people around the world to TAKE a STAND. Take no notice of the pessimists- YES we Can- is not a bad idea!!

" captn_ahab Author Profile Page:

tes786 missed the point completely.

I further suggest that if Muslims in the U.S. can't even get themselves to preach that message widely in the U.S. we have identified a central problem, beyond everyone talking about brotherly love in the abstract.

January 1, 2009 5:49 PM | Report Offensive Comments "

You're pretty snide Ahab, but I'd like to remind you of what Sharon and the Stern Gang thinks of you Feinschmeckers.

Of course, your plan, like all Jew thinking, is based on,"If only the Arabs would..."

But it is sad. How I wish Myer Kahane's loving life had not been cut so cruelly short. There was a man who could smother the Muslim with blankets of affection that melted the most steely of hearts.

Monte Haun mchaun@hotmail.com

Eboo keeps repeating the phrase “Jews and Muslims” in his description of those impacted in the Arab-Israeli conflict,and not even a mention of the most affected segment of the population; the Christians. Those latter ones were the majority till relatively recent times (14th Century)and are the descendents of the Canaanites who lived in that area long before there existed any Hebrews or Ismaelites and who are now being trampled by both sides. Apparently this kind of history is not taught in the Madrasas of Islamabad.

" ASTORIA Author Profile Page:

In 2006 Palestinian attacks on Israel were cut in half-
from 50 Israeli deaths to 23.
Palestinian death doubled- to ver 600-
and 330 of them were children.
330 children."

Look ASTORIA, you are right, but you're wasting your time. Read the hsit that these Jews write! They are blind, deaf and totally bereft of any insight or reason.

You listed some sad statistics, but just statistics after all that roll off their backs without penetrating.

I have a better idea- list the real inner core of being a Jew.

Just a few;

1) Ordering the Brave IDF to shoot Palestinian protesters in the head to allow harvest of their organs to transplant in Jews.

2) Not allowing Arab Fulbright Fellows to leave to accept their Fellowships.

3) Continuous destruction of ambulances.

4) Settlers running wild destroying Arab homes, crops, orchards, killing millions of Arab Olive Trees( A sin even in their own Jew Bible.)

5) Settlers killing Arab farmers to steal their olives, often protected by Jew cops.

6) Throwing hsit on other Jews trying to pray.

7)Forcing their own women to endure humiliating rituals as punishment for a natural function.

8)Long, painful blocades of Checkpoints that force Arab women to birth in automobiles and sick people dying, denied medical care. Forcing Arab farmer's crops to rot.

9)2 Million unexploded cluster submunitions in Lebanon still maiming and killing.

10) ... of course the Israeli Jew Rape of Lebanon and Palestine must be a record for gratuitous rotteness. Bridges, banks, fishing fleet, apartments, roads, power plants, oil storage and the ensuing ecological damage-

11) Govt approval of torture, including violent shaking leading to Death.

12) Use of Torture, Blackmail, Hostages and assassinations to create Arab spies and provacateurs to act against their own people.

When you listen to the Childlike musings of these Feinschmeckers about how great the Jew People is, you can show them the numerous Resolutions that the civilized world has lodged against them for their Barbarous treatment of the Palestinians and their neighbors, but it won't do any good. But send them to my list so they have to see the terrible banality of their evil. A people morally corrupt every single day of their lives with no rotteness too small and trivial nor Bestial and Inhumane to inflict on others.

Please send any contributions and I will add them to the list.

Monte Haun mchaun@hotmail.com

When the Muslims "take to the street" to protest the 200,000 deaths and the 2,000,000 displaced in Darfur, the 150,000 deaths and the 300,000 displaced in Kurdistan, the occupation of the Western Sahara, the shooting on site of Darfur refugees in Eygpt, the murders in Mumbai, the oppression of Christians in Lebanon, Iraq, and the West Bank, the oppression of the Berber in Morocco and Algeria and the destruction of Hindu, Buddhist and Jewish holy sites, then and only then will I begin to take groups such as CAIR as anything but propaganda groups akin to the Buhn movement (pro-NAZI during the 1930's) in the United States. How can you possibly expect Jewish groups to acknowledge Arab-League propaganda coming from CAIR in face of total and under silence with respect to Darfur!!!!!!!

Worth repeating....Again!

mchaun pronounces

" ChuckCardiff:

Being neither Jewish nor Muslim, I can take a dispassionate view of this and agree with Mr. Patel."

I'm not a Jew says the Welsher.

Then he adds:

"That said, the Palestinians really puzzle me. It appears they do nothing all day but nurse their sense of victimhood ..."

Listen, Cardiff, I know Jew and I know Muslim. You're a Jew!!

There is no greater whiner or nurser of their victimhood than the Jew. "

Yeah? Well, I know Sc*mbag Racist, and there is no pukier piece a muley Krap than Sc*mbag Racist, and you're Sc*mbag Racist.

" ChuckCardiff Author Profile Page:

Being neither Jewish nor Muslim, I can take a dispassionate view of this and agree with Mr. Patel."

I'm not a Jew says the Welsher.

Then he adds:

"That said, the Palestinians really puzzle me. It appears they do nothing all day but nurse their sense of victimhood ..."

Listen, Cardiff, I know Jew and I know Muslim. You're a Jew!!

There is no greater whiner or nurser of their victimhood than the Jew.

Monte Haun mchaun@hotmail.com

rmsklar wrote
When the Muslims "take to the street" to protest the 200,000 deaths and the 2,000,000 displaced in Darfur, the 150,000 deaths and the 300,000 displaced in Kurdistan, the occupation of the Western Sahara, the shooting on site of Darfur refugees in Eygpt, the murders in Mumbai, the oppression of Christians in Lebanon, Iraq, and the West Bank, the oppression of the Berber in Morocco and Algeria and the destruction of Hindu, Buddhist and Jewish holy sites, then and only then will I begin to take groups such as CAIR as anything but propaganda groups akin to the Buhn movement (pro-NAZI during the 1930's) in the United States. How can you possibly expect Jewish groups to acknowledge Arab-League propaganda coming from CAIR in face of total and under silence with respect to Darfur!!!!!!!

Worth repeating....Again!

" rmsklar Author Profile Page:

TO MCHAUN
Jews are a people, just like Arabs, Persians, Chinese, etc. Jews derive their name from Judea, a nation that existed from approximately 700 to 1000 BC to 70 AD. The religion of the Jews is Judaism. The term Jewish is used to both describe the Jewish people and the Jewish religion."

So, what's your point? A "Jewish State" is still a Damned abomination condemned by the entire civilized world.

"I say there is no Palestine. It is all Israel. Tell me what lands you would carve out for a new Palestinian state."

How about this- after the radiation dies down, we can carve out a real nice parcel for Palestine. Plenty of water for their grass and swimming pools: Airports and Seaports, their homes and land confiscated by Jews(if still standing) everything stolen from them by you rats?

I have many sad images of the Mideast. One is an elderly Arab holding a tattered Deed in his hand, looking across a fence at a Jew Family enjoying his patio.

I am asking that President Obama immediately introduce a UN Resolution ordering US Marines as Peacekeepers (whether accepted by the Parties or not) to secure and open the Israeli Border Crossings and prevent any rocket or other fire. Protect the Egyptian Border if the Sovereign Egypt chooses to allow passage for emergencies or whatever. Restore all water, electric power and utilities at once.

Let's see how your cowardly Baby-killers face some real soldiers.

Monte Haun mchaun@hotmail.com

COntinued finger pointing and demonizing the other clearly is not conducive to peace by any means.
Isn't that the problem that is being perpetuated?
And confusing the actions of any government as being completely representative of the people is foolish and counterintuitive.

If there were Muslims in the Holy Land imprisoning an entire population of Jews, giving them separate idnentification- separate roads- disenfranchising and building a wall to keep them enclosed- it would be just as outrageous.

It is human nature that is at fault as pointed out wisely by a previous poster.

There are no inherently evil, nor inherently just groups of people- Most Palestinians don't desire the destruction of their enemy over the safety and well being of their families.

And many Israelis don't believe their government is acting in their name in the current lining up of troops on the Gazan border.

But people can be driven to extreme actions when motivated and pushed by fear-

I have been visiting many websites of both Jewish and Palestinian perpsectives.
And both sides are frightened and say this situation is more serious, more potentially disastrous, than they have ever seen before in the history of Israel.

Israelis don't deserve to live in fear and insecurity.
Palestinians don't deserve to be starved and imprisoned.

One is strong, and one is weak.
Both are responsible- and inhumane actions don;t acquire a shine of nobility or justification because it's actors are louder or more powerful.

Abd I feel Israel has escaped any culpability for a long time- on the false premise that the Jewish people have a biblical right to the lands they colonized- when Jewish doctrine demands that the prerequisite of coming of Mossiach precede the gathering of observant Jews to Israel-

People give it a pass because they believe, that the Israelis believe-there is a divine blessing behind their return- but the founders of modern day Israel were all atheists, and didn't use religious reasons for their return- but practical ones.

In Ossetia, when they stupidly attacked Russia, and Russia sent troops in- the whole world screamed at the injustice of the strong and powerful against the weak underdog.

Will it take a real holocaust in Gaza for people to see that the strong must be more, not less, accountable?

Inhumane actions do not become glorious because the actor wears a badge we sympathize with.

I continue to be amazed that people will cite other injustices in the world- but somehow, always- the Palestinians do not deserve the same compassion.

It is a gross hypocrisy to say human rights out of one side of the mouth, while blaming real victims out of the other.

"When the Muslims "take to the street" to protest the 200,000 deaths and the 2,000,000 displaced in Darfur, the 150,000 deaths and the 300,000 displaced in Kurdistan, the occupation of the Western Sahara, the shooting on site of Darfur refugees in Eygpt, the murders in Mumbai, the oppression of Christians in Lebanon, Iraq, and the West Bank, the oppression of the Berber in Morocco and Algeria and the destruction of Hindu, Buddhist and Jewish holy sites, then and only then will I begin to take groups such as CAIR as anything but propaganda groups akin to the Buhn movement (pro-NAZI during the 1930's) in the United States. How can you possibly expect Jewish groups to acknowledge Arab-League propaganda coming from CAIR in face of total and under silence with respect to Darfur!!!!!!!"

Worth repeating....again

"My guess is that the idea of continuing positive engagement with people on the other side is probably gaining ground within Muslim and Jewish organizations, although it's still very much a minority attitude (inertia is a powerful force)."

My god, ain't that the truth.

People should be supporting groups like http://blog.onevoicemovement.org/ instead of supporting groups that perpetuate the conflict.

But as you say, inertia is a powerful force.

It is up to those who want to stop this madness, for the sake of humanity, to make a difference.

There is no way that those engaged in taking sides based on emotions and irrationality, could resolve the conflict. It is simply not possible.

Unfortunately, it takes too long for rationality to work.

Those supporting Hamas and those supporting Israel are wrong.

This conflict is beyond the claims of self defense, either of Israel or Palestinians or the USA or the Arab nations.

This is about greed and the evil nature of humans.

People who don't want peace should be sent to the gallows.

How's that for evil nature of humans?

Good article.

I assume that M Chaun also rejects the legitimacy of, e.g., the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, the Islamic Republic of Iran, the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan, the Islamic Republic of Mauritania, and has also publicly decried the fact that in a number of countries which are predominantly Moslem, people who convert from Islam to a different faith are faced with significant legal sanctions.

Apart from this, I am sure that s/he definitely condemns the ethnic cleansing which has regretfully taken place in several countries where followers of one Islamic faith tradition have launched pogroms against followers of a different Islamic faith tradition. (And yes, followers of different Christian faith traditions have also launched pogroms against each other. And I suspect that to a Buddhist or an atheist or a follower of Zeus or Thor or the Great Pumpkin (and I am NOT denying the validity of the faith tradition of a Buddhist), the rationales behind these respective pogroms seem pretty trivial.

Adding my opinion again ...

Unfortunately, Crazyams50 insists on ignoring the key facts that:

a. Israel withdrew COMPLETELY from Gaza and it was the Palestinians who insisted on destroying the infrastructure left behind. With respect to Gaza, the question of settlements is completely irrelevant. (Use of "completely" twice intentional.) This is not to agree that expanding settlements in the West Bank is completely unnecessary and completely provocative. But that's a different issue.

b. Rather than use the opportunity to attempt to improve the lives of Gazans, Hamas misleadership opted instead to move their missiles a lot closer to Israeli communities and to keep on launching them -- and intentionally to launch them at civilian targets.

c. There is no doubt that the tunnels have been used to smuggle MORE rockets (as well as other, less objectionable stuff).

d. As a matter of policy, Hamas members place their military supplies amidst the homes of their parents, grandparents, siblings, and children. It is bizarre, to say the least, hideously twisted, to say a bit more, that Hamas believes that the Israelis, whom they wish to exterminate, have a far greater concern for the lives of Palestinian civilians than Hamas cowards do themselves. You cannot logically murder your parents and then claim you are an orphan.

The reality is that the leadership of Hamas seems to have no concern whatsoever about the well-being of Gazans, and their indifference to the well-being of Gazans has had a spillover effect in damaging the well-being of residents of the West Bank, as well. The most charitable thing that can be said about them is that at least they are not hypocritical about their desire to make victims out of Israelis, no matter how many Palestinians have to suffer in the meantime.

TO MCHAUN
Jews are a people, just like Arabs, Persians, Chinese, etc. Jews derive their name from Judea, a nation that existed from approximately 700 to 1000 BC to 70 AD. The religion of the Jews is Judaism. The term Jewish is used to both describe the Jewish people and the Jewish religion.
Hebrew is the language of the Jews and has been in existence from at least 2500 BC and is very similar to Phoenician is considered to be in the Canaanite family of languages.
Israel was a nation that split apart from Judea some time between 1000 and 700 BC and was later destroyed by the Assyrians in approximately 600 to 500 BC.
Israel is also a biblical reference to Jacob in teh Bible and the 12 tribes. The Jews chose the name Israel for the re-established Judea; Just as Persians chose to name their country Iran, with reference to the ancient Aryans, and the English chose to name their country Britain, with reference to the Roman Brittania.
Palestine is the name the Romans gave to occupied Judea. The name stuck over time.
To say that Israel is a Jewish state is no different then to say that Iran is a Persian state or France is a French state.
Looking at the question of what defines a people, in the case of Jews: a language: Hebrew; a literature: the numerous books, poems, and commentary of the Bible, written over a period of 1000 years; a identified terrain: the land west of the Jordan River; a religion: Judaism; an identified music: Jewish music; and a gene pool.

Here in New York, the protests gainst the slaughter of the Palestinians is an exercise in interfaith dialogue- with Jews and Muslims and Christians unified.

In 2006 Palestinian attacks on Israel were cut in half-
from 50 Israeli deaths to 23.
Palestinian death doubled- to ver 600-
and 330 of them were children.
330 children.

After this sustained show of restraint from the Palestinians, instead of returning such peaceful intention in kind- Israel has cut off electricity, kicked out all humanitarian groups (I have a Christian friend who visits Israel several times a year(with an interfaith peace group) and hasn't been able to get into Gaza for 2 years.

For the past 30 months the people of Gaza-which is the most densely populated piece of land on the planet- have been slowly had the noose of deprivation of basic necessities tightened around their necks- they are starving now-

Whether you are Jewish or Muslim or Christian- you cannot help but feel that there is a point where the slow genocide of an entire people ceases to be justified.

To date- 400 Palestinians have been killed by Israelis- many of them children.

$ adult Israelis have been killed.

That is 100 Palestinian deaths to 1 Israeli death.

By any reasoning- this is disprportionate.

" captn_ahab Author Profile Page:

What do you think would happen if you called on every Mosque in the United States to declare that Israel is a legitimate state..."

You Jews have dragged out any solution with your whining that Palestine must accept Israel as a legitimate State. That issue has been settled over and over, few people disagree.

But what the Jew has done is very stealthily, deceitfully and Jew Like to now demand that Palestinians must accept Israel AS A JEWISH STATE which is an abomination to any but stinking Bigots.

Monte Haun mchaun@hotmail.com

tes786 missed the point completely.

I am not talking about Arab political talking points or Israeli political positions.

Mr. Patel asked what American Muslims and Jews could do.

I suggest that there is a greater chance in the U.S. of a significant number of synagogues backing the establishment of a Palestinian state, than American Mosques preaching to the faithful that Israel is a legitimate state and no threat to Islam.

I further suggest that if Muslims in the U.S. can't even get themselves to preach that message widely in the U.S. we have identified a central problem, beyond everyone talking about brotherly love in the abstract.

rmsklar writes:

"When the Muslims "take to the street" to protest the 200,000 deaths and the 2,000,000 displaced in Darfur, the 150,000 deaths and the 300,000 displaced in Kurdistan, the occupation of the Western Sahara, the shooting on site of Darfur refugees in Eygpt, the murders in Mumbai, the oppression of Christians in Lebanon, Iraq, and the West Bank, the oppression of the Berber in Morocco and Algeria and the destruction of Hindu, Buddhist and Jewish holy sites, then and only then will I begin to take groups such as CAIR as anything but propaganda groups akin to the Buhn movement (pro-NAZI during the 1930's) in the United States. How can you possibly expect Jewish groups to acknowledge Arab-League propaganda coming from CAIR in face of total and under silence with respect to Darfur!!!!!!!"

Worth repeating.

To CRAZYAMS50
I am trying to comply with the ground rules set out by Patel, which is to seek common ground. I offered 7 principles, you took issue with only one. This is a start.
I willingly withdraw the principle with respect to the "greenline". Prior to 1967, there was a de-facto armistice line known as the "greenline". That armistice line no longer exists. Now what. Where do we go from here.
You make demands regarding so called settlements. I say there is no Palestine. It is all Israel. Tell me what lands you would carve out for a new Palestinian state.

A senior American Jewish official told me yesterday "Jews and Muslims in America should be modeling positive relationships here, and hoping that pattern offers a way forward over there."

Many of us are. Too bad you aren't with us. Care to join? We'd be delighted to have you. Really!

Farnaz

As long as any religion proclaims itself the one true religion and it's followers consider themselves better/entitled/chosen and therefore have the right/obligation to convince others to follow them ... there will be war.

Secular government is the only path. Kepp religion out of politics. A Jewish homeland is as dumb as an Islamic republic or a Christian country.

Dunb, dunb, dumb!

A couple of overlooked points, publicized everywhere, although missing from your thread, Eboo. Why am I not surprised. 23,000 tons of relief supplies from other nations, INCLUDING Israel were brought into Gaza.

MPAC is calling Israel "brutal" and "trying to raise funds"? "Trying"? HAR. Not subtle, but Har.

That really is funny. Not all Americans see the issues the same way, obviously, and no one liked either the continued shelling from Gaza or Israel's response. We never liked the shelling from Lebanon and we don't like it now. No one likes violence if he/she is sane.

Here's the thing. You are way to biased, to state the matter politely, biased even to the point of misrepresenting, using inflammatory rhetoric, and literally lying about facts.

Biased to the point that the single group, JEWS, deliberately targeted for Torture at Mumbai, was ignored by you. Not surprising.

Now just why is it that Abbas blames Hamas, Egypt blames Hamas, Saudi Arabia blames Hamas....

Usually, I really enjoy Mr. Patel's blog entries, but there's a serious problem with this one. Namely, coexistence cannot occur when one side (or both) are intent on wiping the other out. To talk about the need for "peaceful coexistence" at this time is to miss the point: people are being slaughtered - and they're being slaughtered in *huge* numbers. The timing of this attack has as much to do with U.S. and internal Israeli politics as it does with Hamas, and that in & of itself is disgusting. The targeting of the civilian police force in Gaza is also for a specific political purpose: to pave the way for Fatah to re-enter Gaza and use terror to subdue the local population. I have no patience for Hamas, but these are facts that we should all absolutely refuse to "coexist" with.

cont.

oh and stop refering to other groups to being "akin to Nazis", there is only one group who is and you are a part of that group.

What a joke, you talk about propoganda wars are you blind can't see the news networks blitzing Pro Israeli propoganda. Forgot that israel broke the truce by going into Gaza first "to destroy tunnels" killing many Gazans too. It is hamas who broke the truce by firing rocket in defense? who are you kidding?

They have the right to build defenses just like you Israelis do.

If you can't even follow a basic truce how do you expect anyone else to trust you?

To Ramsklar-

To state common ground rules when your first (comment) tirade against one side, is a joke.

To your so called rules, I say NO

The only reason you state your rules of no green line and no boundry calims is because the "greenline" boundry is changed very heavily on one side and any agreement to change these lines only favors one side, and by your early tirade let me guess you favor the israeli side.

Lets first start with the basics which have been in many agreements

STOP BUILDING MORE SETTLEMENTS.

stop changing the line in your favor, in hopes of reaching a agreement in your favor. Stop talking about how you deserve land because of the holocaust when you your selves are committing one right now.

Gaza is nothing more then a concentration camp. If Israel breaks the truce by coming into to "destroy a tunnel" then Gazans have the right to defend themselves in way possible. If Israelis don't want indiscriminate rockets hitting them then tell the US to supply them with the same weapons we give to you guys.

"It's better to die on your feet walking then to live on your knees crawling"

Don't talk about truce and common rules to agree on when you have no interest in resolving it.

Such a ignorant statement to thin that all of the problems you state are as basic as you state.

Why not look into some of those conflicts instead of just labeling them as "muslims". Have the world wars been Christian battles, Civil war, colonial wars?

Each battle war has different reasons behind them- take for instance the Indo Pak conflict. Do you even know why a Kashmiri group would attack Mumbai / India? Do you know where the international community including the US lie when it comes to Kashmir? I'll give you a hint, it's with the Muslims that you blame. Such ignorant statements, one only sees the bad in other groups, but not the bad in ones own. What sins, wars has your religion committed?

(I understand this is a tirade as well, no need to point out the hipocracy)

If one cannot follow the most basic humanitarian moralistic rules then one has no right to write rules that ones should agree on.

This is his same old drum, interfaith communication, interfaith communication Patel has been beating for years. All the time other people have been beating their war drums.

I suggest Patel send Ben Laden his e-mail address and suggest to him that the next time he thinks of a new twin towers type attack he e-mail him instead with his real feelings.

For sure.

Fair enough, lets first seek common ground;
1. Can we agree that Jews and Arabs are locked in a battle in the lands west of the Jordan River to the Mediterranean, north of the Sinai peninsula and south of the Lebanese border.
2. Can we all agree that these lands do not, by reference to God, the bible, the Quran, or any other intrinsic claim, belong to any one group.
3. Can we agree that all demands for land are subject to negotiation
4. Can we agree that each group has historical claims on which it bases its claims for land.
5. Can we agree that the so called "green line" has no bearing on any future settlement of these land disputes
6. Can we agree fundamental principles of self-determination and the right to live in peace in secure borders
7. Can we agree on these principles to start

Capt-Ahab feels that Jews will agree to an independent Palestine but Arabs will never support the right of Isral to exist. I think its totally the other way round. Israelis with never accept an independent Palestine. Never!!! But 21 Arab Nations in the early 90's (including Saddam's Iraq, and Syria) had agreed to establish full diplomatic relastions with Israel if they would end occupation. Israel refused.

Israel's Never Again policy has always been to use a sledgehammer to squash a fly. Obviously because they wanted the consequences to be so bad that Palestinians would think twice before making any threatening move. But as has been true from the begining of time, the Oppressed and the Weak is now no longer afraid but the Strong is. You are now in a situation where Israelis can't win and Palestinians can't lose.

Israelis always had another option. They could have defeated the militant groups by building schools, bridges, roads, providing jobs for Arabs in their own neighbourhood, and help them build their own economy. Unfortunately when people see themselves as "GOD"S CHOSEN PEOPLE" they are bound to see those who fight their authority and rule as enemies of God and mankind.

The stupid asses have needed a new play book for a thousand years...

ChuckCardiff writes
'the Palestinians really puzzle me. It appears they do nothing all day but nurse their sense of victimhood'

So if your daughter is raped, you tell her to 'lie back and enjoy it'? Why not? Do you have any idea what living conditions are in Gaza? If your country was invaded would you join the resistance or colaborate with the occupiers?

'My advice for the Palestinians is to stop whining and act like adults'

And if your wife or daughter is raped, she should lie back and enjoy it. Somehow I think the Palestinians have better ideas.

When the Muslims "take to the street" to protest the 200,000 deaths and the 2,000,000 displaced in Darfur, the 150,000 deaths and the 300,000 displaced in Kurdistan, the occupation of the Western Sahara, the shooting on site of Darfur refugees in Eygpt, the murders in Mumbai, the oppression of Christians in Lebanon, Iraq, and the West Bank, the oppression of the Berber in Morocco and Algeria and the destruction of Hindu, Buddhist and Jewish holy sites, then and only then will I begin to take groups such as CAIR as anything but propaganda groups akin to the Buhn movement (pro-NAZI during the 1930's) in the United States. How can you possibly expect Jewish groups to acknowledge Arab-League propaganda coming from CAIR in face of total and under silence with respect to Darfur!!!!!!!

The problem in this case has nothing to do with differences over faith. It has to do with a conflict over a deep attachment to the same piece of land. Most within the Jewish community will support some division of the land between Jews and Palestinians. If the Palestinians were ready to accept a Jewish right to some part of the land, there would be a real prospect for substantial Jewish support for a more even division than the current one. But the Palestinian population has chosen to support those most opposed to the Jewish presence and their military strength is on the increase. Israel can no longer just roll in tanks and control the extreme elements. That leaves Israel little option besides total war and the threat to annihilate those who chose to make war on them. One can argue that there is some path for Israel to encourage the more moderate Palestinians without resorting to war. But with the reality of the choice of Hamas and of the tactics of Hamas, it is very hard to see that path as a realistic option.

great thoughts Mr Patel, however the two sides can't even agree on basic facts. I defy anybody to find a history of Palestine and the establishment of Israel that both Zionists and Palestinians would agree is accurate. Better yet, go by wikipedia and do a search on 'Palestine' and note how for every fact on one side there is a counter-fact. Neither side can agree if there were even people in Palestine before the Zionists moved in. Neither side can agree about the events leading up to the establishment of Israel. If they can't even agree on basic history (and there are plenty of people who were alive at the time FFS!) how will they ever agree on the current situation or a solution?
My solution is just to cut off all US funds for BOTH sides and let them fight it out without bringing in the USA.

The Kingdom's International Cultural Outreach Office is distributing free of charge the new title, "Equality and Tolerance in an Islamo-centric World." Authored by top Koranic scholar Imam Dr. Omar Ali al-Qafoozi, the work presents guidelines for interfaith and inter-ethnic harmony under Islam. The principle enunciated therein should help resolve current difficulties.

OK, Mr. Patel let's reduce your call to action.

What do you think would happen if you called on every Mosque in the United States to declare that Israel is a legitimate state and its destruction is not in the interest of Islam or the Palestinians, and simultaneously askeded for every synagogue in the United States to declare that an independent Palestinian state is in the interest of Israel?

I would bet you dollars to donuts that you could get the latter but not the former.

That Mr. Patel is the crux of the problem.

It is all very khumbaya and brotherly to make such calls as you do for brotherly love in the abstract, but I challenge you to call for the concrete actions that would lead to true understanding.

Advice for those who ponder the situation in the former British-mandated Palestine:

The Jews and the Arabs have been contending with each other in this land for at least 120 years.

The news, the headlines, and the scripts have always been the same during that time.

What you'll read in the newspapers on 2009's New Year's Day will be the same stories I read in cafes on Dizengoff Street over fifty years ago, and saw on the AP teletype in Washington in 1967.

This conflict will not be settled during the lifetime of anyone now living on this planet, including those born today, January 1, 2009.

Knowing this fact, and accepting its reality, provides a basis for dealing with the news from Israel-Palestine in a sane manner, without hope, fear, or anxiety, and without becoming exhausted at following this never-ending pageant.

Buddhism's advice for dealing with any and all thoughts is relevant here.

Consider any thought or perception about Israel-Palestine as if it were a white cloud passing overhead through a blue sky.

Take note of it quietly, without being either attracted to or repelled by it.

SUCH sweet pitti-pat.
Same old, same old, we maybe shud make some phone call?

Nothing about the Palestinians, bloackaded into starvation and ruin, now being killed by the hundreds? Four youg girls from one family.

And we hear a young blonde from Fox News call the deaths "collateral damage". And nobody took her off the air. Just more of the same, with the American Jewish press doing another turn.

Well, not so. There was good old Bernie, who changed the tone and stopped the odious PC that has supresssed so much thought here. And there is the world, finally, enraged about the Israeli barbarity, again.

Things have changed. And our columnists might try some ideas more real. And just.

Something sto

Being neither Jewish nor Muslim, I can take a dispassionate view of this and agree with Mr. Patel.

That said, the Palestinians really puzzle me. It appears they do nothing all day but nurse their sense of victimhood and occasionally vent their rage through ineffectual attacks on Israel -- and then, when the Israelis respond, whine that the response is "disproportionate", which seems to be Palestinian Newspeak for "effective".

My advice for the Palestinians is to stop whining and act like adults -- promote education, maintain order, and honor the diligent. By doing these things they might recapture some of the sympathy people like me formerly felt for them.

Why is it when Hamas fires rockets it is seen as the break in cease fire? when just the day before the rockets started firing Israeli troops made a incursion into Gaza, to in their words destroy a tunnel, killing 30 in the progress. Why is this not considered a break in the cease fire?

Shouldn't both sides be forced to follow the rules of the cease fire, and not just one.

Gazans have the right to make defenses just like Israel does. The rockets came after the Israeli incursions. This was big news when Israeli did it, but nobody uses it to say it might of casued the problems. Hamas didn't fire rockets until after this.

I support Israel, but I am a reluctant supporter of Gaza right now, Sorry. Both sides need to follow the rules, and the news coverage needs to start being equal in the reporting of both sided and not just when Palestinians do something negative.

The savage and barbaric bombing of Gaza by the jews is worse than the bombing of Auschwitz by the Nazis.

Organized religion and its doctrine have been the cause of more suffering and evil than any other institution. Here;s how you solve the situation in the Middle East:

Fist you take the 10% muslim fanatics who insist on the destruction of Israel and the establishment of their capital on a spot of land delibertly designed to be unacceptable to Jews and you place them at one end of a sealed stadium.

Then you take the same number of Jews who are intent on a "Biblically-defined greater Israel" which includes the settlers and their ulta-orthodoz supporters and place them at the other end of the stadium.

Finally, you take the Christians who think it is their religious duty to control what everyone else does and place them between the two group.

Air drop all sorts of hand-to-hand weapons into the stadium and let the fanatics kill each other.

The rest of us can solve the problem without much trouble.

In the Twelve Steps there is the famous definition of "insanity" - doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result. I've long characterized what is happening in Israel/Palestine as a dance of death between two parties incapable of considering the suffering on the other side of the divide. Although this is the first day of the new year, I would have expected at least a few comments on this excellent article, but there are none. This proposal appears too radical for those who have locked themselves into their myopic perspectives.

Unfortunately, AIPAC has been so successful mobilizing political support in this country, it is virtually impossible for elected officials to argue with the status quo. For all the empty rhetoric about reconciliation and a two state solution, there really has been no significant movement in that direction. I agree a dialogue between Jews and Muslims in this country would be fruitful. Whether it occurs before hell freezes over is the only question.

It is very easy to say "The US, Jews and Muslims need a new playbook", however Palestinian Muslims do not behave for their collective good in the way that western democratic societies operate.

The Palestinians are faction upon faction with competing and opposing goals while being influenced by agendas, money and arms from outside Gaza and the West Bank. Largely emotionally based and horribly distorted by power players. There is no way to reach agreement as there is always at least one major faction that refuses to honor agreements. They cannot even agree on one voice. Until they all recognize that Israel is here to stay forever and disavow its destruction, there is no hope for peace.

I very reluctantly support Israel's attacks on the rocket launching Hamas while deploring innocent lives taken. The fact remains that Hamas embed their terror units amongst the population to make the cost of an attack on them look inhuman.

This is a barbaric war tax on their own people.

Israel has indisputable casus belli to respond to rocket attacks on Israel from inside Gaza.

When Muslims of the region learn to act with one direction, one voice and honor agreements, then there will be progress.

Not very likely, however.

"I'm on the side of coexistence, and I bet you are too. What public statements can we collectively make, what press releases can we cooperatively issue, which helps the side of coexistence defeat the demon of conflict?"

joint statement:

"Hamas, stop firing rockets at Israel, and see what happens."

People might also want to learn about the "J Street Project," which describes itself as:

"J Street is the political arm of the pro-Israel, pro-peace movement. We seek to change the direction of American policy in the Middle East and to broaden the public and policy debate in the U.S. about the Middle East. We support strong American leadership to end the Arab-Israeli and Palestinian-Israeli conflicts peacefully and diplomatically... " In essence (as I understand it), as an alternative to AIPAC.

http://www.jstreet.org/

Unfortunately, while it takes both sides/all sides to end a fight, it takes only one to keep it going, let alone to make it worse.