Sparrow, Sparrow, Sparrow,

But how can you be Jewish and not believe in the literal interpretation of the Hebrew scriptures???

A rather thorough analysis of the body count in the OT (which we assume you agree with?):

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm

"Biblical Atrocities

Exodus 32: 3,000 Israelites killed by Moses for worshipping the golden calf.

Numbers 31: After killing all men, boys and married women among the Midianites, 32,000 virgins remain as booty for the Israelites. (If unmarried girls are a quarter of the population, then 96,000 people were killed.)

Joshua:

Joshua 8: 12,000 men and women, all the people of Ai, killed.

Joshua 10: Joshua completely destroys Gibeon ("larger than Ai"), Makeddah, Libnah, Lachish, Eglon, Hebron, Debir. "He left no survivors."

Joshua 11: Hazor destroyed. [Paul Johnson, A History of the Jews (1987), estimates the population of Hazor at ?> 50,000]

TOTAL: if Ai is average, 12,000 x 9 = 108,000 killed.

Judges 1: 10,000 Canaanites k. at Battle of Bezek. Jerusalem and Zephath destroyed.

Judges 3: ca. 10,000 Moabites k. at Jordan River.

Judges 8: 120,000 Midianite soldiers k. by Gideon

Judges 20: Benjamin attacked by other tribes. 25,000 killed.

1 Samuel 4: 4,000 Isrealites killed at 1st Battle of Ebenezer/Aphek. 30,000 Isr. k. at 2nd battle.

David:

2 Samuel 8: 22,000 Arameans of Damascus and 18,000 Edomites killed in 2 battles.

2 Samuel 10: 40,000 Aramean footsoldiers and 7,000 charioteers killed at Helam.

2 Samuel 18: 20,000 Israelites under Absalom killed at Ephraim.

1 Kings 20: 100,000 Arameans killed by Israelites at Battle of Aphek. Another 27,000 killed by collapsing wall.

2 Chron 13: Judah beat Israel and inflicted 500,000 casualties.

2 Chron 25: Amaziah, king of Judah, k. 10,000 from Seir in battle and executed 10,000 POWs. Discharged Judean soldiers pillaged and killed 3,000.

2 Chron 28: Pekah, king of Israel, slew 120,000 Judeans

TOTAL: That comes to about 1,283,000 mass killings specifically enumerated in the Bible. The battle of 2_Chron_13 is so much larger than all the others that we probably should doubt it."

you're overreaching, ccnl- in fact you have no idea what I really believe despite knowing that my background is Jewish. So if you're thinking about going in for psychology or you think you might be psychic, don't give up the day job.

Hmmm, underlying beliefs aka "pretty, wingie, talking thingies? Well Victoria has her Gabriel and without "Gabe" Islam fails as a religion.

The Observer supposedly is a liberated Christian with a fetish for protecting the myths of Judaism as they were historical facts. That brings the "pretty thingies of death" into play.

And Sparrow goes in lock step in believing in the "angels of death". Poor Egyptian male firstborn!!

Deb is a Brahman/Brahmin and there can only be one deliverer of all those confusing Vedas, a "pretty, wingie thingie who could write in Sanskrit!!

Actually ccnl, none of us have posted undying belief in a pretty wingie thingie. You're just not reading- the conversation is political and cultural, not religious (except as it plays into the political and cultural).

I realize I am expecting too much of you-actually I'm shocked. You didn't add your usual cut and paste rant. Are you finding your own posts as boring as we do?

Hmmm, tis the Astoria, Observer, Deb and Sparrow show of forces!! And all believing their "pretty, wingie thingie" is the only one who is in the know of it all. Interesting!!!

Don't worry about Farnaz Observer. She does this every once in a while- disappears a few weeks and then comes back.

"Astoria wrote (scroll down) that she has forgiven violence against her, which she earlier explained was not racist, and has claimed that suffering is suffering, that there is no distinction to be with respect the cause."

Actually- I have never really shared any of the traumas in any detail- including the many acts of violence I experienced (some are beyond belief)
after 911-

the point is not is an act of violence racially motivated-

a fist in the face doesn't feel less painful if the hate that propels it is motvated by anger, islamophobia- anti-semitism- or any other reason.

And the verbal violence that is related so easily here-is a precursor and advocacy of further violences acted out.

Trying to separate any violence- this one is forgivable- this one not-
is to my way of thinking is a pointless and futile attempt to justify the unjustifiable.

Deb:

I completely understand your anger and you're not alone. Here's a thought. There is terrorism within the various states of India, terrorism directed from one state to another, terrorism against the central government, terrorism among tribes, etc.

This I learned from a fellow blogger, and I can't find her best post on this, but I did follow up.

You can't go around bombing everyone because it won't work, will it? What will you do? Go around the country with bomber squadrons?

Again, I don't blame you not at all. Just look at what the collective punishment of Afghanistan has wrought. A beleaguered suffering country is being genocided and is destablizing Pakistan, and make no mistake. The Pastun are a big factor in the current craziness.

Do you want to take on your own country, Pakistan, and Afghanistan? Why not hit at the source? REad history. Look up at the stars and stripes. Bombs away.

debchatterjee has no concept of what liberals actually say or believe- she (or he) may as well be a republican neocon pundit. For the record liberals and/or lefties are not trying to make peace with terrorists but instead shore up anti-terrorist efforts through diplomacy, economics, and dialogue. Any self-delusional moron can take the truth and twist it - we've had 8 years of an administration that has done so and debchatterjee has bought it hook, line and sinker.

I personally don't care if that's the mindset you have. I do care that you will misrepresent and lie about what liberals think, say or do. If anyone is immoral, it's you.

Ded Chtterjee writes all terrorists are muslims.

Thats far from truth as far as India is concerned.

There was a bomb blast in a Mosque during Friday prayers in MALEGON in Maharashtra in sep 2006. 37 people were killed and 100 injured .Initially police blamed it on Islamists. Later investigation proved Hindu organisation was behind the attack.Ex army officers belonging to VHP / RSS was arrested.

The chief investing officer of MALEGON bomb blast HEMANT KARKARE was killed in recent Mumbai terrorist attack.

http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/Hindu-group-behind-Malegaon-blast-Police/376802/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemant_Karkare

Observer12 wrote:

"If I may give an opinion. What the US has done in Afghanistan has accomplished almost nothing. "

I agree with you. Half-hearted policies are the problem of US failure in Afghanistan. That does not mean in any way that a hardline approach would not have worked.

Muslim terrorists are using kill-joy principles to threaten and paralyze a secular country (India/USA). These bloodthirsty hoots are getting support from the leftist media and intellectuals under the charade: "expression of human rights". The average Mumbaikar or other innocent bystander in Mumbai has no option but to accept his/her fatal/bloody destiny in the hands of these Muslim terrorists from Pakistan. (Kashmiri Hindu Pandits met with the same fate, while the PM of India PV Narasimha Rao watched and postured.)

The problem, in general, seems to be that of leftist gobbledygook: make peace overtures with Muslim terrorists who will kill in the name of Allah and swear allegiance to the Quran. This concept of the liberals is immoral and also quite demoralizing because it somehow accords the Muslim terrorists and their extremist interpretations of the Quran/Shariah a much higher level than the lives of their hapless victims (infidels/non-Muslims). Only cowards, who would not take any moral responsibility, would adhere to such hypocrisy by the leftists.

Many do not agree with Sam Harris - that Islamic social order is the problem in modern times.

observer- I do agree racism of any sort is a special category of crime. I would never belittle any of what farnaz2 has gone through on that score. Anyone who tells someone to get on with their life after a tragedy is someone who has never been through one. But as we all know, people's stupidity knows no bounds and so stupid, insensitive people will say such things as "get over it," "move on with your life," etc.

It is impossible to create a scale of suffering. I don't know what happened in astoria's life, nor farnaz's (other than what they have posted). there are details of my life where I have suffered greatly too- everyone hurts the same. It's society's response that makes the difference- if society does not respond to racism and antisemitism, it risks allowing genocide. Hate crimes show the worst side of us- we've seen over and over again what happens when racism is allowed to fester. It's a crime against the capacity of a society to function.

Hate crimes are a special case for this reason. All victims of crime suffer- whether your daughter is raped because she is female, or she is Jewish, the pain the same to the parent. But to society, the hate crime not only demands the rapist be caught and punished, but that society respond to it as a crime against society as well as a crime against the victim. Not sure if I wrote that clearly- let me know .

sparrow-Final post for this evening. You say on Chopak's thread that you draw the line at racially motivated attacks. This is central to the issue.

Although on the previous thread, Farnaz did NOT bring up the murder she witnessed, the racially motivated rape, the racially motivated beating of her daughter, she was admonished to move on, get on with her life, etc. I'll cut and paste tomorrow if necessary.

Whether she has or has not forgiven is not the point, nor is it anybody else's business. NO one has the right to tell another how to feel, and she has never indicated whether or not she's forgiven. She succintly made the point that she has only posted on politically motivated and/or religiously motivated crime; hence, we have no idea of what else she may have experienced, as she replied to Astoria who told her that her own suffering was greater (see previous thread). Nor, I would add, is it our business.

The point was made that the issue was racism, not competitive victimology. If it is to be treated as a special case by society or if it is not--this is what is at issue, and, to repeat, the nature and extent of suffering has been, up to now, a determining factor.

sparrow-In the preceding post, I refer to my 3:51, 3:53 posts of 12/3. The difference in legislation for hate crimes stems from the view that the suffering inflicted by such crimes, such as that inflicted on the Mexican man, Farnaz's friend, Farnaz, her daughter, deservers more severe penalties, and a more comprehensive social response than crimes differently motivated.

That is why I say part of your reply begs the question--all this is better explained in my 3:51 and 3:53 post on this thread.

Again, thanks for your reply.
---------------------

ALL-

I welcome further discussion of this issue.

Sparrow writes:

That said, suffering is suffering. To the family of an Asian deliveryman who is killed for money or the family of a black man killed because he is black, the suffering and grief is the same. It's the reaction of society that is different

Thank you for your comment. The literature by by African Americans on the effects of racism, by Jews, et al, shows, however, that racism is a special case.

More to the point, in the previous thread, it was argued that the anti-semitic violence committed against Farnaz was the same as any other form of violence, i.e., suffering is suffering.

She replied--please see my earlier posts on this thread--on the social implications of that view. As do I. Society's view of anti-Black racism, racism directed against immigrants, sexist violence is shaped by the view that it represents a special category, that its consequences for the victim are unique, and it has therefore been assigned different responses, different legal consequences than violence, verbal or physical, of another nature.

That is what is at issue. To argue as your comment does that what differes is social response begs the question of why that response differs. That question is addressed in my earlier posts.

I welcome further discussion.

astoria :-)

observer, in the US we define such crimes as hate crimes. They are a specific category of crimes based on racism, antisemitism and prejudice. Robbery is treated differently than the crime of breaking into a synagogue and stealing a Torah which is then found defaced on the street. The intent makes it a hate crime, whereas if the Torah was sold to another synagogue or an art collector, the police would most likely pursue it only as a robbery.

That said, suffering is suffering. To the family of an Asian deliveryman who is killed for money or the family of a black man killed because he is black, the suffering and grief is the same. It's the reaction of society that is different.

sparrow- YYYAAAAAYYYYY!!!!!

Sparrow writes:

"Too many of us have experienced the pain of it firsthand"

Farnaz was one. She saw a family friend murdered before her eyes in Iran and saw many other things. She was raped here because she is Jewish. Her daughter's teeth were knocked out because she is Jewish.

Either racism does constitute a special category of violence, which would include verbal violence, or it does not.

Astoria wrote (scroll down) that she has forgiven violence against her, which she earlier explained was not racist, and has claimed that suffering is suffering, that there is no distinction to be with respect the cause.

That is the question of my earlier two-part post (3:51PM, 3:53PM on 12/3) Does racism or does it not constitute a special category. Farnaz argued that it does on Patel's previous thread. I included her post in mine below.

I welcome discussion.

The horror of Mumbai, the slaughter of three hundred people the wounding of countless horrors is unspeakable.

The larger discussion as my posts below show is on the notion of racism and whether crimes dealing with racism such as the murder of a Mexican man in Long Island or anti-Jewish racism constitute a category. On the previous thread it was asserted that suffering was suffering and that there was no difference between that endured by minorities and women as a result of their identity and other kinds of pain.

Sparrow and I had a brief exchange regarding this topic, and I invite further discussion:

These are my posts of 3:51 PM and 3:52 PM on 12/3.

As for astoria's doubt that the terrorists couldn't be "sophisticated" enough to target foreigners and Jews, the press including the US and Indian says otherwise.

They were instructed specifically to seek out foreigners and more specifically, Jews.
____________________________
"The other doctor, who had also conducted the post-mortem of the victims, said: 'Of all the bodies, the Israeli victims bore the maximum torture marks. It was clear that they were killed on the 26th itself. It was obvious that they were tied up and tortured before they were killed. It was so bad that I do not want to go over the details even in my head again,' he said.

Corroborating the doctors' claims about torture was the information that the Intelligence Bureau had about the terror plan. 'During his interrogation, Ajmal Kamal said they were specifically asked to target the foreigners, especially the Israelis,' an IB source said."

http://worldnews.about.com/b/2008/12/02/signs-of-torture-on-mumbai-victims-especially-israelis.htm

ASTORIA writes to Sparrow:

The post was addressed to sparrow- not you observer-
anyway- I'm not reading your posts so don't waste your time.

December 4, 2008 12:46 AM | Report Offensive Comments
______________________________
Here is the post Astoria refers to, the one I mistakenly thought was addressed to me for reasons I will show in my next post.
______________________________________

How in the world does correcting Observer's assertion posited in absolutist terms-

"Moreover Jews don't seek converts, are not conversionists, although they welcome those who seek to convert"

and giving an example, and substantiating it with my own experiences- turn into-

"bending over backwards to try to come up with some justification for what was done to the Jews in Mumbai"

and to being 'rabidly anti-semitic, and disgusting, and told to go to an arab country???
My god what an over reaction! Was there any indication- anywhere? any connection whatoever made to Mumbai?
And all in the name of free speech and freedom of religion???

Continued from above

I KNOW you live in Crown Heights- I considered referring observer to you- but thought it might be misconstrued as bigoted because you happen to be Jewish!

"And gee- don't I feel stupid now for having told debchatterjee on the Deepak Chopra thread she was a bigoted jerk for her comments about Muslims."

WHAT? Bigotry is bigotry! If you need to qualify it- or regret speaking out against it- don't blame ME for your regret!

Maybe you have limited experiences with religious proselytizers- I have extensive expereinces with many of different kinds- and yes- I DID have experiences with Lubavitchers in Venice- just as I did with Jews for Jesus who let me use their kosher kitchen occasionally when I was feeding homeless people there-

All I can surmise, is that if people are traveling great distances to evangelize or proselytize if the christo-associated word offends-
they tend to be a bit more enthusisatic than the ones who are staying at home-

and I also encountered ALOT of hare krishnas- mormons- on a weekly basis- I had 3 young elders (yes- its a mind twister) stop by at lunch time like clockwork every Saturday long past the point where it was obvious that I was not going to convert to the church of LDS.

And of course the ever-present Jehovah's Wintnesses, that I studied the bible with for 3 years- but frankly- I find knocking on peoples doors quite rude- as well as witnessing, proselytizing, and evangelicizing.

I encountered Lubavitchers in Chicago, and Pittsburgh PA as well- and they were quite the earnest little zealots- and all young men- they reminded me of mormons for their young zeal.

What in the world is the matter with you?

If you are finding all that hatred, and rabid bigotry- AND JUSTIFICATION FOR TERRORISM-in such a simple correction of a blanket and incorrect statement-

it is not I who am being thin-skinned-
and why would you imagine they were some annoyance to me anyway?

I love talking to young earnest and believing people- I was one once-

I am trying to point out that evil, and violence- are universal human traits- and NOT to put people(as I said specifically- Jews) in little boxes-

HOW IS THIS IN ANY WAY NEGATIVE????
December 3, 2008 10:23 PM

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

Hmmm, you noted that 40 Muslims were killed in the Mumbai massacre but neglected to say whether they were Sunnis or Shiites.

Considering the 10-25 Islamic terrorists were affiliated with al Queda the terrorists were Sunnis. And we don't know how one differentiates a Sunni from a Shiite except noting their attendance at an affiliated mosque, it is a good bet that most of the 40 Muslims (not counting the dead terrorists or did you put that in the count?) were Shiites.

http://www.answers.com/topic/november-2008-mumbai-attacks?method=26&initiator=CANS

Then simply Astoria it was a misunderstanding of what you typed. i was very taken aback by what you wrote and surprised as I have also known you to be gracious on most things as well.

I also try to understand why people behave as they do and one thing I have come to believe- terrorists are addicted to their anger and adrenaline, ( one can do that) and it is no longer about injustice and social outrage. terrorism is anger taken out on the innocent.

I hope you understand the extent of my anger- I've spent most of my life dealing with prejudice, as a Jew, as a white woman in an interracial marriage (yes, there's nothing like walking down the street with your husband and being called a N_g_r-loving wh*re by a bunch of white guys), and as a WTC volunteer dealing with truly obnoxious Christian religious bigotry. And please don't think I haven't fought with my own people about their prejudice, or with black people for theirs.

There is nothing more stupid, ugly and hateful than prejudice. Too many of us have experienced the pain of it firsthand.

Deb Chatterjee, you write to Arminius:

Your "serious problem" with the ToI article is a product of fuzzy judgement. Both Bush and Obama have explicitly stated that India has a right to defend itself. If USA sees fit to bomb Afghanistan following 9/11, then India should see fit to bomb Pakistan following 26/11. Its that simple. (But India would not, because Indian govt. is manned by a bunch of cowards.)

If I may give an opinion. What the US has done in Afghanistan has accomplished almost nothing. It's deeply regrettable that blogger Farnaz has taken a hiatus from this thread, since she has posted on the carnage and further destablizaion we've wrought there. Meanwhile our neglect of "nation-building" a muddled concept I won't even go into has enabled the Taliban to regroup.

The US is no model for India to follow. How India should proceed is beyond my ability to speak to.
There are huge problems, not only with respect to Kasmir (I'm not getting into the subject) ethnically in India--extremist Muslim, Hindu groups etc., of the home grown variety.

These terrorists appear to come from Pakistan, a country to whose destablization the US also contributed heavily, again, a subject on which Farnaz, not I am knowledgable.

I do understand however from her posts as well as from my own reading that the situation there is dire, that Pakistani intellectuals, students are desperate, that Pastun extremists have been placed by the new president (whom Farnaz and many others believe murdered his wife) in the universities. She, Farnaz, also posted that the Red Mosq is back in business.

If India bombs Pakistan, India would be progressing to WW III. Both nations have the atomic bomb. There are insane factions in both nations. Pakistan is unstable.

India has the right to defend itself as does every other nation afflicted by terrorism. No nation except the US has resorted to barbarism at a national level.

I wish the best for your country.

Those of us bloggers want to send a strong message against the recent Pakistan backed bloody mayhem and carnage in Mumbai, please considering signing the petition to the Govt. of India urging them to take a strong stand. It is not the time to peel pathos out of wounds; but, the Govt. there must be reminded that every citizen of India and the foreigners (Jews in Nariman House) have equal right to live, and their lives are not cheap. By encouraging in taking strong action you will have pacified the departed souls who may have wished to stay longer with their loved ones. Please seriously consider signing the petition at:

http://www.PetitionOnline.com/26novAct/petition.html

The post was addressed to sparrow- not you observer-
anyway- I'm not reading your posts so don't waste your time.

I think you have to try pretty hard to rationalize the level of your anger to the supposed offense there sparrow-

No- I don't think Jews are trying to turn Hindus into Christian-
Lubavitchers are a different breed- as Shi'a are a different breed OF HUMAN- (Is it really necessary to state the obvious?)

And I've already SAID I found no offense in it- and Lubavitchers are of a more conservative strain- AND believe their rebbe is Mossiach-

I didn'tcreate the situation in Mumbai- I don't synpathize with the attackers- Ijust try to understand why people do what they do.

I am sorry that these particular Jewish selfless servers of humanity were caught in the crossfire-

You are possibly assuming the terrorists are able to make levels of distinction between an american Jew or British Christian that you or I might easily identify-
I do not assume they have the lvel of education and awareness to make those distinctions.

Positing on the possible factors that may have affected the tragedy- hardly seems deserving of the vitriolic response I have gotten.

It is my own experience that Jews come on several different flavors- there are ultra orthodox, conservative, liberal reform, women rabbis- all sorts- if you want to say they are all homogenous- it's ok by me.

You exhibited before more of a suspicion for thegood intentions in people-
I think Observer is poisoning you- but- honestly- I think your attack and subsequent reasoning to jutify that attack are- less gracious than I have known you to be in the past.

"Yet you decide it is a problem."

I absolutely did not in any way decide it was a proble-
sometimes I think faster than I type- and I am sorry I said that...
"You equated Jews with evangelizing Christians"

Oops- yes I did- I'm sorry about that- but I was trying to see this from the perspective of why- if I understand why- maybe I can figure out a way to make it stop somehow.

I'm not angry at anyone- just kind of sad.

Astoria has accused both Farnaz and yours truly both below, on the previous thread, of being anti-Muslim, patently ridiculous as my posts on this thread, Patel's previous thread, etc., demonstrate. The same is true, historically, of Farnaz's posts.

I will not cherry pick as I've said/

Ethics are ethics, logic logic. Ethos is ethos, I might add.

Arminius:

Your "serious problem" with the ToI article is a product of fuzzy judgement. Both Bush and Obama have explicitly stated that India has a right to defend itself. If USA sees fit to bomb Afghanistan following 9/11, then India should see fit to bomb Pakistan following 26/11. Its that simple. (But India would not, because Indian govt. is manned by a bunch of cowards.)

Astoria claims I wrote"

and to being 'rabidly anti-semitic,

"And gee- don't I feel stupid now for having told debchatterjee on the Deepak Chopra thread she was a bigoted jerk for her comments about Muslims."

WHAT? Bigotry is bigotry! If you need to qualify it- or regret speaking out against it- don't blame ME for your regret!

_____________________________

Deb Chatterjee cannot be a woman, as Farnaz repeatedly informed you. The name Deb is masculine.

The quotation you attribute to me is not mine.
________________________________

These strategies are objectionable, ethically and logically.

______________________________

Sparrow,

Forgive me if I'm somehow responsible for your choking, and I hope you've recovered. I read astoria's post on the Chopak thread because you asked me to.

Whoops! Should have written continued from below

Continued from above

______________________________
"KNOW you live in Crown Heights- I considered referring observer to you- but thought it might be misconstrued as bigoted because you happen to be Jewish!"

I don't know what this means. I cannot imagine how you would know this since I do not live in Crown Heights, so Astoria kindly explain how you "KNOW" I live in Crown heights.

Neither am I Jewish although that is beside the point.
______________________________________
On a previous thread you claimed blogger Farnaz lived in Westbury. Where you got this I don't know, as she has repeatedly made it clear she lives in Brooklyn.
____________________________________________

and to being 'rabidly anti-semitic, and disgusting, and told to go to an arab country???
My god what an over reaction! Was there any indication- anywhere? any connection whatoever made to Mumbai?
And all in the name of free speech and freedom of religion???
______________________________________________

You're mixing points together, and accusing me of things I did not say. However, cherry-picking and false accusations are logical fallacies and it is precisely such fallacies that I shan't engage.

I will say that suggesting you move to an "Arab country," actually to a Muslim country since religion is at issue is appropriate since you have frequently posted of the discrimination you face here. In this, I was merely picking up on your frequent inquiries to Farnaz as to why she doesn't move to Israel. First you asked her why she didn't go there from Iran, a question she answered. Then you repeatedly asked her why she didn't go there now.

Astoria writes-

How in the world does correcting Observer's assertion posited in absolutist terms-

"Moreover Jews don't seek converts, are not conversionists, although they welcome those who seek to convert"

and giving an example, and substantiating it with my own experiences- turn into-

"bending over backwards to try to come up with some justification for what was done to the Jews in Mumbai"

and to being 'rabidly anti-semitic, and disgusting, and told to go to an arab country???
My god what an over reaction! Was there any indication- anywhere? any connection whatoever made to Mumbai?
And all in the name of free speech and freedom of religion???

First: No Jews anywhere in the world convert. They are not conversionists, but do warmly accept those who wish to convert and assist them in so ding. Astoria didn't give an example from her own experience in Jews attempting to convert them since they don't convert.

If Astoria has had a personal experience with Jews who knew she wasn't Jewish trying to convert her, that would be of interest and could be documented. She gave no such documentation on the
Chopak thread. That testimony she gives here does not constitute documentation.
______________________________
My posts below on special pleading continue a discussion begun on the last thread: I'm in accord with a post made by blogger Farnaz on the previous thread:

In the US as in other countries, identifying people by race, nationality, ethnicity, targeting them for assault, and then saying that their "suffering" is the same as anyone else's assumes it is of the same moment, and therefore does not require attention.

Were that still the view in the US, the Civil Rights Movement would have been in vain

November 30, 2008 6:44 PM | Report Offensive Comments
_

Why don't you reread what you posted: "The only people in that area who really have a consistent problem with Jews, Americans and Brits are the RSS and extremist Hindu groups who have been conducting a pogrom against Indian Christians(mostly from the Dalit- or untouchable caste) who are being proselytized and evangelicized to and converted from Hinduism to Christianity by the same groups- American, British, and Jewish evangelicals."

You equated Jews with evangelizing Christians who are creating problems in Hindu and Moslem countries because they are trying to convert them to Christianity. So explain to me how Jews who are trying to get less observant Jews become more so, create a problem with the RSS and extremist Hindu groups in India? (Yet they are tortured and murdered by Muslim terrorists in Mumbai)?

First of all let me assure you that Jews across the board are more homogeneous in their beliefs than Catholics, Protestants, Mormons, Jehovahs Witnesses, etc. Jews "evangelizing" as you put it, to other Jews should bother no one. Yet you decide it is a problem. So where did you ever get the idea that the Lubavitch were converting anyone to Christianity? After all, you were the one who wrote: "who are being proselytized and evangelicized to and converted from Hinduism to Christianity by the same groups- American, British, and Jewish evangelicals." Then to add insult to injury, you called the Lubavitch a "different breed". A different breed of what- dog?

In fact- and I choke to say it- observer is right. Jews do not go out to convert people- the Lubavitch are not proselytizing because- wait for it-Jews are already Jewish. they want them to be more observant and that is totally different than telling someone their faith is wrong and they should convert to yours in order to be saved. You don't understand the difference. As for young Jewish boys being zealots- did they follow you down the street trying to shove obnoxious tracts in your hand? Did they demean your religion? No, I don't think so. And yes I have had much experience with proselytizers- and they've all been christian. There is no relation between what the Lubavitchers do and the kind of christian evangelizing that creates so much by extremist groups. They did not create a problem in India or with the Mumbai terrorists except for the fact that they simply existed. Yet you implied that somehow they caused the problem. That's what gets me angry.

How in the world does correcting Observer's assertion posited in absolutist terms-

"Moreover Jews don't seek converts, are not conversionists, although they welcome those who seek to convert"

and giving an example, and substantiating it with my own experiences- turn into-

"bending over backwards to try to come up with some justification for what was done to the Jews in Mumbai"

and to being 'rabidly anti-semitic, and disgusting, and told to go to an arab country???
My god what an over reaction! Was there any indication- anywhere? any connection whatoever made to Mumbai?
And all in the name of free speech and freedom of religion???

I KNOW you live in Crown Heights- I considered referring observer to you- but thought it might be misconstrued as bigoted because you happen to be Jewish!

"And gee- don't I feel stupid now for having told debchatterjee on the Deepak Chopra thread she was a bigoted jerk for her comments about Muslims."

WHAT? Bigotry is bigotry! If you need to qualify it- or regret speaking out against it- don't blame ME for your regret!

Maybe you have limited experiences with religious proselytizers- I have extensive expereinces with many of different kinds- and yes- I DID have experiences with Lubavitchers in Venice- just as I did with Jews for Jesus who let me use their kosher kitchen occasionally when I was feeding homeless people there-

All I can surmise, is that if people are traveling great distances to evangelize or proselytize if the christo-associated word offends-
they tend to be a bit more enthusisatic than the ones who are staying at home-

and I also encountered ALOT of hare krishnas- mormons- on a weekly basis- I had 3 young elders (yes- its a mind twister) stop by at lunch time like clockwork every Saturday long past the point where it was obvious that I was not going to convert to the church of LDS.

And of course the ever-present Jehovah's Wintnesses, that I studied the bible with for 3 years- but frankly- I find knocking on peoples doors quite rude- as well as witnessing, proselytizing, and evangelicizing.

I encountered Lubavitchers in Chicago, and Pittsburgh PA as well- and they were quite the earnest little zealots- and all young men- they reminded me of mormons for their young zeal.

What in the world is the matter with you?

If you are finding all that hatred, and rabid bigotry- AND JUSTIFICATION FOR TERRORISM-in such a simple correction of a blanket and incorrect statement-

it is not I who am being thin-skinned-
and why would you imagine they were some annoyance to me anyway?

I love talking to young earnest and believing people- I was one once-

I am trying to point out that evil, and violence- are universal human traits- and NOT to put people(as I said specifically- Jews) in little boxes-

HOW IS THIS IN ANY WAY NEGATIVE????

DebChatterjee,

I have a serious problem with the article you cited. Given that signs are rapidly emerging that the terrorists had definite ties with groups in Pakistan (see an article in the NYT), I cannot believe that Obama, or even Bush, would give the go-ahead for strikes by India into Pakistan. This would be a clear violation of Pakistani territory - can anyone really believe that we are pushing for this escalation between two very nervous nations, both of which are nuclear armed?

Actually Obama and Bush have both given a clear signal to India for bombing Pakistan with the support of the International Community like they did in Afghanistan. The news is at the ToI link:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/US_sets_stage_for_strikes_if_Pak_does_not_act/articleshow/3789520.cms

India, cowards as they are, will pass up this opportunity.

Shame on India, if it fails its own and International citizens who were the hapless victims of the Pakistan sponsored terrorism in Mumbai.

" Lubavitchers are a special breed- and yes, they do, as I stated on the post- seek to convert OTHER JEWS to their particular practice of Judaism.

I've been approached by Lubavitchers all over the place- even as far as Venice Beach CA- "

You are bending over backwards to try to come up with some justification for what was done to the Jews in Mumbai- way to go, astoria. And here I almost mistook you for a rational, human being.

I know these people- I live in Crown Heights. they may ask you if you are Jewish, but they don't shove tracts into your hand, they are not converting Jews (you can't convert someone to something they already are), and they don't force their religion on others. So if you find someone offensive for asking politely if you are Jewish, then you're pretty thin skinned, don't believe in freedom of speech or religion and rabidly antisemitic. (You're always welcome to run to hte nearest Arab country that will have you).
"A special breed"- you are disgusting.

And gee- don't I feel stupid now for having told debchatterjee on the Deepak Chopra thread she was a bigoted jerk for her comments about Muslims.

"Evangelical" was derived from the Greek word "euangelion" which means: "gospel" or "good news.

Evangelizing as a verb- is used in conjunction with (and not on it's own)the verb proselytizing Observer.

"Moreover Jews don't seek converts, are not conversionists, although they welcome those who seek to convert."

Lubavitchers are a special breed- and yes, they do, as I stated on the post- seek to convert OTHER JEWS to their particular practice of Judaism.

I've been approached by Lubavitchers all over the place- even as far as Venice Beach CA-

Don't be so quick to put people in little boxes-

Now, don't YOU get it?

When you try to demonize and vilify ONE group of people and dehumanize them all beyond recognition as belonging to the family of man-

while angelicizing and canonizing ANOTHER group of people beyond all recognition as belonging to the family of man-

you draw polarizing hyperbolic and exaggerated conclusions-
neither conclusion having any veracity- both being cartoon versions-

Also, you seem to imagine that by illustrating the "others" great evil-

that, somehow, by comparison- you will shine with an automatic brilliant sanctity-

it is quite possible that you are resonating so strongly to- and find no other expression than-
evil- not because of the innate goodness that gives you special eyes to see evil- that the rest of us are somehow lacking-

but because some element of that evil and the bad intentions and inner violence finds some accord in your own inner violence-

There is no assumption that because you are preoccupied with the evil deeds of others that you are, by some comparison- a good being.

You don't honor your own prophet who exhorts you to love your enemies.
If you are not practicing your own faith- which we assume you are familiar with-

why should anyone have any regard for your words about religions which you clearly have no knowledge about?

Take that massive gigantic plank out of your own eye before you rush to get the microscope to remove the splinters in others eyes you seem so prone to seeing everywhere.

The criteria with which you judge others is so superficial, so skin deep and laughable-

People that you deem in agreement with your own ideas can be rude, name-calling- unkind- and accusatory- and as long as they hate the same things that you do- you find this acceptable.

Try responding to people without your own pre-conceived categories of them- and for the kindness, patience and good manners they exhibit.

You have baned yourself for what you wish to be- and I wish for you too- to become an observer.
But that big log is clouding your ability to see.

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

Hmmm, you noted that 40 Muslims were killed in the Mumbai massacre but neglected to say whether they were Sunnis or Shiites.

Considering the 10-25 Islamic terrorists were affiliated with al Queda the terrorists were Sunnis. And we don't know how one differentiates a Sunni from a Shiite except noting their attendance at an affiliated mosque, it is a good bet that most of the 40 Muslims (not counting the dead terrorists or did you put that in the count?) were Shiites.

http://www.answers.com/topic/november-2008-mumbai-attacks?method=26&initiator=CANS

Jewish evangelists (sic)
astoria, Chopra's blog

"Evangelical" was derived from the Greek word "euangelion" which means: "gospel" or "good news.

Moreover Jews don't seek converts, are not conversionists, although they welcome those who seek to convert.

Sparrow,
I read astoria's post as you asked,and your reply. Now I have a question concerning astoria.

Do you get it yet?

well, observer- you'll love astoria's comment on the Deepak Chopra thread. Take a look.

"The object of the attack was not to kill Jews"

This is quite beside the point, and, moreover:

Corroborating the doctors' claims about torture was the information that the Intelligence Bureau had about the terror plan. 'During his interrogation, Ajmal Kamal said they were specifically asked to target the foreigners, especially the Israelis,' an IB source said."

http://worldnews.about.com/b/2008/12/02/signs-of-torture-on-mumbai-victims-especially-israelis.htm

The terrorists were politically motivated and not only by Kasmir, but by the treatment of Muslims in India as second-class citizens at best, which has ever been the case.

US business dealings with India, christian anti-semitism, the media, etc., have kept this discrimination from the public, focusing it on Israel, as anti-semitism is always justifiable via special pleading or another logical fallacy.

Moreover, my recent post, the two-part post below this one continues a dialogue begun on the previous thread that in various ways has continued on to this one. That dialogue concerns the equation racial persecution, beginning with antiJewish racism, with any other kind of suffering.

I welcome responses to my two-part post below, but the issue is special pleading viz antiJewish racism.

I will make an observation I have been noticing lately about a new and subtle phobia entering the american psyche- I will call it Sinophobia-
I predict it will become something to watch for in the next fews years.
I plan on nipping it in the bud myself.

I would really recommend Simon Cohen's post on the media-

Deb- you cannot vote for a Democrat one way or the other as you are in the UK.

debchatterjee- yes on sam harris and no on leftist democrats. We leave that stupidity to the rightwing, who have raised it to an art form the last 8 years.

----------------------
There is no question antisemitism has been a commonality in our society and with islam. Islam, however is a more recent and more politicized form which is now mutated into the classic religious form. In Mumbai many people, besides Jews were murdered. The object of the attack was not to kill Jews- but when the opportunity presented itself the terrorists were only too too happy to kill the family after torturing them. they were also targeted as Americans, so it is relevant. Very much so.

Everyone who was murdered in Mumbai had a life, a family. I grieve for all of them.

The Mexican immigrant who was murdered on Long Island was a specific, targeted, hate crime. He was the only object, and only because he was Mexican. Hate crimes are a specific, especially heinous type of crime that deserves harsh penalties and if I were the state I wouldn't just prosecute the kids who did it, I would charge their parents as well for incitement.

Part I: On Mumbai--Post continues below

The horror in Mumbai boggles the mind. The three hundred persons murdered, the hundreds more wounded. The motive, for the most part, was political, although ethnicity and nationhood also played a part as they always do. Contra what most people think, religion, nationhood and ethnicity work together to form identity politics.

Every human being's life is valuable. What is particularly troubling about the Naiman house incident is that the Jews there were singled out only because they are Jews. And they were tortured. A woman six-months pregnant and her husband were murdered in front of their badly beaten two-year old son who was carried out covered in his mother's blood. Although it is irrelevant they were Americans.

I have also posted three links of reports published in the past seven years by the US, England, and the EU on antiJewish racism, much of it violent carried out by Christians and Muslims.
If you'd like to read these reports, please scroll down.

If we are to suddenly equate racist violence with all other violence, racially caused suffering with all other suffering, we need first to consider the reasoning that would make such an equation desirable, since it would represent a sharp departure from the past, result in changes in the law, in public funding and in public discourse.

A few weeks ago a man was killed on Long Island by three white men who went out hunting for Mexicans. Anti-Mexican crime is a problem on the island and schools have requested special funding to introduce prgrams, bring Mexicans and white christans together, etc. The colleges in the island are also getting involved.

Part II

If we say that killing and beating Mexicans because they are Mexican is the same as a shooting that takes place somewhere with robbery as a motive, then I see no reason why the stat should fund the request of these schools.

Similarly, there are currently nationwide efforts to end discrimination against documented immigrants; however, if their suffering is the same as anyone else's they should not be given special priveleges.

Colleges, high schools, junior high schools are conducting outreach to end assaults against and verbal abuse of gay students. Parents are also getting involved. If the suffering of young gays is the same as the suffering of anyone else, the funding for these efforts should be stopped.

Simply stated, one cannot dismiss the reports on anti-semitism spanning two continents, the continued targeting of Jews by Muslims and Christians as equivalent to any other kind of suffering, without making the same argument for every other identity group.

To exclude antiJewish racism from other forms of racisms, gender biases, etc., would be special pleading, more specifically, setting a double standard, which is illogical, and legally unacceptable.

The question then becomes are we to dismiss all nationally, ethnically, racially, religiously, sexually motivated violence--verbal and physical--as equivalent in consequence to any other form of abuse.

If so, than OnFaith, indeed the entire culture, will have to be prepared to make radical changes in it moral outlook, educational policies, funding allocations, etc.

DebChatterjee,

By opposing Islam on all fronts, you only drive them further together into tribalism, terrorism, and madness. Dialog is vital for a start. Sure, hunt down the terrorist and kill them without pity. But meanwhile, try to lift these countries out of their darkness and thereby deprive the terrorists of their base. There is no easy cure - we're talking generations here. But putting up walls solves nothing.

Arminius & Sparrow4:

Is Sam Harris, an ardent Obama supporter a bigot like me ? He has opposed Islam on every front in his best-selling book END OF FAITH: RELIGION, TERROR AND END OF REASON. (And you are living proof of why I shall never vote for the Democratic party in the near future.)

BTW, is asinine cluelessness a trademark of leftist democrats ?

Hi, Sparrow,

Right you are. DebChatterjee is right down there in the gutter with Ann B-Word Coulter and Rush Bimbo.

Violence begets violence, the piles of dead grow daily, and what does the religious right do? Point fingers and play victim. Pardon me while I puke.

wow debchatterjee- spoken like a true right wing bigot. You just added yourself to the shrinking group loopy rightwingers who will cut off their noses to spite their faces. Perhaps you can join Jeb bush's new shadow government- I like to have all my treason ducks in a row. All Muslims are bad. Indians are cowards- you must be ann coulter. I heard you jaw was wired shut- too bad your fingers still work.

Better yet- read a few history books. there are NONE of us who are innocent in warring on fellow human beings.

TKTEZ wrote:

"In places they don't (rest of the world), they are always "the victim", complaining that they cannot cannot practice their suppressive laws and customs in the free world.. Are any places in the world they co-exist peacefully with other religions ?"

That's exactly the indirect reason why I did not vote for the Democrats in this election. I do agree that Barack Obama is a highly educated, cool and fair-minded professional/politcian. He has the capacity to judge what it takes to solve the issues.

But, Democrats are mostly leftist-liberals and mired by the bogeyman of "human rights of minorities". So, Barack Obama could very well get pulled into the leftist ideas and verbiage of Senator Harry Reid and Speaker Nancy Pelosi. They would accord equal status of practicing Islam (with all its repressive appendages as you mention) withy that of Christianity and Judaism and other non-Abrahmic faiths. This, in my view, is not necessary. It will certainly complicate the situation, and exacerbate the probability of home grown radical Islamists. This has happened in UK. Suicide bombings of the London subway by British-born Muslims of Pakistani descent.

However, there is still time. Obama must enact a legislation to curb/restrict Muslim immigration into the USA. Muslims shall never integrate in a secular, democratic society like USA. (They haven't in Canada, UK and most prominently in India where they have lived for centuries.) Islam creates a world as "us" (believers) vs. "them" (unbelievers - non-Muslims). This segregationist mentality is the wedge between any cultural compromise.

However, as long as Democrats continue to be influenced by the likes of Madam Pelosi and Sir Reid, USA shall have to live with some wariness.

I was wondering about the 180 others who were also killed.


Tasneem Nashrulla, Hindustan Times

Mumbai, December 02, 2008

40 MUSLIMS KILLED IN MUMBAI BLASTS

In the greatest irony of the Mumbai attacks, more than 40 Muslims, at the present count, died in acts of terror carried out in the name of their religion. At least 183 people died in the attacks last week.

Hussain’s father, Maulana Zaheer Abbas Rizvi, general secretary of the All India Shia Personal Law Board, stood outside the Taj for hours, watching grenades and gunfire rip apart the hotel in which his son was captive. Though Hussain’s smses provided intermittent relief, the maulana could only pray helplessly.

“There is no justification (for this),” said the maulana. “All of India should stand up to fight against terrorism. I don’t consider these terrorists Muslims.”

The sentiment is echoed by other Muslims in Mumbai, aghast that the attacks were committed in the name of jihad. Fashion designer-artist Nahid Merchant, 49, a Muslim who prays five times a day and attends weekly workshops that discuss Islam as a way of life, said,

“These terrorists are the worst enemies of Muslims. I hang my head in shame when the terrorists compare their victory to that of the historic Battle of Badar, which was fought to save Islam.”

“They say they are taking revenge for what happened in Gujarat, but two wrongs can never make a right,”Merchant added.

Salim Shaikh, 21, a delivery boy who helped transport the injured and the dead to hospitals after a taxi-bomb exploded near his house in Wadi Bunder, said,

“If they (terrorists) come in front of me, I will kill them.”

Mohammed Naeem, 30, a fruit seller in Bandra, equally angry, said, “Because of them, my business has gone down by more than half. Everyone is scared to come out. Both Hindus and Muslims are suffering because of their actions.”

Maulana Mehmood Daryabadi, general secretary, All India Ulema Council (Sunni), said Muslim clerics were condemning the terrorists through the media and through sermons in mosques across the city. “We doubt that these terrorists are Muslims, because jihad does not mean perpetrating violence,” he said.

A Muslim woman, who did not wish to be named, conducts workshops for followers to build faith and lead their lives as devoted Muslims. “In Islam, we greet each other by saying ‘Assalaamu' Alaykum’, which means ‘Peace be unto you’. These acts have nothing to do with our religion. They have been committed by human machine guns that are evil beyond imagination,” she said.

TKTEZ- how about in this country? I think you'll find they do. On the other hand, I hear many American christians claiming victimization and persecution in this country- where they are a majority and are pushing their agenda off onto the rest of us. Just read through the blogs- and heaven forfend you dare say Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas- they'll boycott your a** to Kingdom Come.

Reading from some comments here...And I don't like to generalize, but it is interesting to note how some (an unfortunate majority of them) muslims always claim victimhood. Where are they happy ? In places they control (middle-east)they run oppressive regimes that instituitionalize open suppression of other religions and fan hatred towards them.

In places they don't (rest of the world), they are always "the victim", complaining that they cannot cannot practice their suppressive laws and customs in the free world.. Are any places in the world they co-exist peacefully with other religions ?

Unfortunately DebChatterjee, Muslim terrorists (or any terrorist) will use whatever excuse they can to kill the innocent. what they did was horrible, and perhaps they will try to target Jews, but all the dead were targeted in that sense. They looked for Americans and Brits, to specifically kill also.

I'm outraged over all the dead, but considering the extent of the slaughter and the scope of it, I hesitate to say this is specifically an antisemitic issue. I know the Rabbi and his family were singled out and horrifically tortured but hundreds of people were killed, not just them, and I can't assign a special value to one innocent life over another.

I know personally, from experience what antisemitism is, I know what terrorism is, having been in downtown Manhattan on 9-11. I heard a lot about all the American lives that were lost, yet many innocent Asians and Middle Eastern people died that day too. I've heard that no Jews died that day (easily disproved), that the Jews did it ( well debunked), that it was an attack on white Christians- all kinds of bs. But the truth of the matter- terrorism is an equal opportunity murderer. They kill everyone they can and then use our differences to divide us so that we can't unite in response. That's how they work- so as upset and infuriated as I am about the Rabbi and his family, I am just as infuriated and upset over everyone who was murdered in Mumbai.

All,

The founder of Kashmiri American Council (KAC) is not this Khajawall character, but Dr. Ghulam Nabi Fai (who is in Washington, DC). (Google Ghulam Nabi Fai and you will find out about him.) Dr. Fai, it appears from the grapevine of the various soc.culture.* internet newsgroups, raised money for Jihad in Kashmir and supported the terrorist activities of the Hizb-i-Islami and Lashkar-e-Taiyyba. He also articulated the case for 'ethnic cleansing' of Kashmiri Hindu Pandits, bu Muslim militants.

And, I think that the following NYT newsitem indicates that more anti-Jewish terrorism shall happen in India, following the brutal slaying of 6 American Jews including Rabbi Holtzberg and his wife.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/03/world/asia/03jews.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1

The only solution India has is to expel or in extreme cases use brutal tactics to contain the anti-Jewish, anti-Hindu (read pagan), anti-Christian terrorism from Muslims.

May I ask COL. A.M. Khajawall[Ret] MD., ABFM., ABDA if he will make room for Kashmiri Pandits who are all driven out of their land or killed by his intolerant Muslims Brothers? Yes their land if you go back in History they owned it all before Muslims invaded.
You want to turn Kashmir in to another homogenious society like northwest frontier or perhaps like country of Pakistan.
When I read names of people residing in Mumbai and killed by the terrorists I am amazed at the diversity of Mumbai in terms of its culture, religion, and language. If children are raised in such diverse society there is less chance of them to become bigots.
Those monsters were raised in a homogeneous society where people of other faith were killed and/or driven out long time ago. As a result young people there perhaps never meet people who are not Muslim, do not dress or look like them or speak their language. It is therefore very easy to fill their mind with hatred for others.
I doubt they even knew that the owner of the restaurant they massacred innocent people and police chief of Mumbai are men of their faith

astoria- I googled the name. He claims to be the founder of the Kahsmir American council. The only mention of this cyber-character on google are his own posts where he has written his rather impressive credentials. But none of which can be verified. I even looked up the council and the mission he write of- there is no mention of him anywhere in connection to these organizations. A blogger on another site looked him up in the military- there is no such person.

So yes- a human being wrote the words, but he is not the person he claims he is. He could be anyone- when you post you have a user name you specify and then you can write whatever you wish.

chequerboard :
As a resident of the city in question, I am sickened by oft-mentioned references to the 'spirit of Mumbai'. A succession of apologists, politicians and bureaucrats have used this phrase to let Mumbai fend for itself. They are fully confident in the knowledge that a city whose survival depends on the millions of transactions which take place in it everyday has no option but to lick it's wounds and carry on. The celebrated 'spirit of Mumbai' will be the death of Mumbai.

------------
i second your opinion. I am sick and tired of these people praising mumbai spirit. trying to elevate the poor people. all these who say this should be ashamed. there is no doubt mumbai will recover but talk about their tragedy and what needs to be done to prevent it in further rather than talking about their spirits everytime they are attacked. this holds good for any other city.

Many of the 1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have already "Crossanized" Judaism i.e. almost 10% of the Jewish global population have come to realize that the OT is mostly myth, myths that have had in many cases tragic consequences since the OT forms the bases of both the NT and koran.

To wit:

"New York Times
ARTS & IDEAS/CULTURAL DESK | March 9, 2002
New Torah For Modern Minds
By MICHAEL MASSING (NYT) http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20E1EFE35540C7A8CDDAA0894DA404482

New Torah For Modern Minds

Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses. The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho. And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling nation.

Such startling propositions -- the product of findings by archaeologists digging in Israel and its environs over the last 25 years -- have gained wide acceptance among non-Orthodox rabbis. But there has been no attempt to disseminate these ideas or to discuss them with the laity -- until now.

The United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, which represents the 1.5 million Conservative Jews in the United States, has just issued a new Torah and commentary, the first for Conservatives in more than 60 years. Called ''Etz Hayim'' (''Tree of Life'' in Hebrew), it offers an interpretation that incorporates the latest findings from archaeology, philology, anthropology and the study of ancient cultures. To the editors who worked on the book, it represents one of the boldest efforts ever to introduce into the religious mainstream a view of the Bible as a human rather than divine document."

As a resident of the city in question, I am sickened by oft-mentioned references to the 'spirit of Mumbai'. A succession of apologists, politicians and bureaucrats have used this phrase to let Mumbai fend for itself. They are fully confident in the knowledge that a city whose survival depends on the millions of transactions which take place in it everyday has no option but to lick it's wounds and carry on. The celebrated 'spirit of Mumbai' will be the death of Mumbai.

http://soleslide.blogspot.com

In the meantime, it has been suggested that astoria seek asylum at the Iranian embassy to spare her the horrors of more discrimination in this wretched country. Syria would also be an excellent safe haven for her.

Let us all consider any other terrorist states where the suffering and anguished devout nutcase can find refuge.

Every time Astoria posts cyberspace should be decontaminated. The AMA recommends a hot shower for anyone logging on within twenty-four hours of her having made a "comment."

On Astoria's post:

Here is the Indian newspaper source from which the torture details of the American Gavriel and his pregnant wife (six months pregnant) were taken. Other Indian newspapers contain similar details.

Only a terribly sick person would seek to somehow associate this despicable act with Israel or with any nation. Terribly sick and racist, indeed, evil.

Muslims all over the world are condemning the tortures at Naiman house and the slaughter of three hundred people. Only the sick and evil could defend such abominations as the torture of a two-year old child removed covered in blood from the scene of his mother's murder.

I need not say more. Astoria's continual anti-Jewish racism speaks for itself, I know, and only for murderers like those in Mumbai with whom she aligns her sick self.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/nov/30mumterror-doctors-shocked-at-hostagess-torture.htm

Astoria wrote:

"You are dishonoring the lives of the slain by trying to use it to further your own agenda of defaming all Muslims- abd it does no good but only harm."

All Muslims are NOT terrorists; but most terrorists ARE Muslims.

sparrow- He's a fake what? Human being? Clearly someone wrote the words.

How do you research a person on the internet?
Google their name?

Observer- I actually did research your link- the doctor's are all anonymous, and the links all lead to individual opinions- and Jidnu and Israeli symapthetic sites- but all anon sources.

But it doesn't matter-
What good does trying to incite further hatred accomplish?

There's alot of suffering in the world, no one has a monopoly on it-

You are dishonoring the lives of the slain by trying to use it to further your own agenda of defaming all Muslims- abd it does no good but only harm.

As long as there are people like you in the world who do such things- it will take a long time for peace to come.

It is very easy to love those that agree with you- and you do that well-
but the real test is in seeing the humanity and finding something to love even in your enemies.

Especially when the enemies have never touched you, hurt you, or affected your life tangibly.

You are hating strangers for the sake of the god- and that is a tragedy.

Deb Chatterjee:

Peace to you as well. I'm not Jewish. I'm a christian who has been saved from christianity. departed the church in time to save my soul.

Observer12:

Thanks for the clarification. It must have been my misreading of your posts. I stand corrected.

Shalom,

Deb

CCNL, Bagel,

Too late to take back Joshua. You've posted on his God aided adventures endlessly. If you go back on your testimony now, you'd appear psychotic (in contrast to how you generally seem).

More from Mumbai doctors on the work of your Joshua and God inspired murderers of Jews.

"The other doctor, who had also conducted the post-mortem of the victims, said: 'Of all the bodies, the Israeli victims bore the maximum torture marks. It was clear that they were killed on the 26th itself. It was obvious that they were tied up and tortured before they were killed. It was so bad that I do not want to go over the details even in my head again,' he said.

Corroborating the doctors' claims about torture was the information that the Intelligence Bureau had about the terror plan. 'During his interrogation, Ajmal Kamal said they were specifically asked to target the foreigners, especially the Israelis,' an IB source said."

http://worldnews.about.com/b/2008/12/02/signs-of-torture-on-mumbai-victims-especially-israelis.htm

Funny thing is, most of them weren't Israeli. God and Joshua must have misled you folks.

Deb Chatterjee:

I suggested this? Not at all. Did you click on to the wrong link?

Let me know...There is no doubt who killed them, and, the Gavriel and Rivka were American. These people were tortured to death by the terrorists; there baby son Moshe (Moses) was tortured as well.

No one I know holds the NSG responsible. Where are you getting this from?

The Jewish atrocities "committed" in Jericho etc., were as per many OT exegetes mythical since the walls never came tumbling down from the blasts of Joshua's band. Unfortunately and tragically, the story is still believed and the example followed by many Jews, Christians and Moslems.

And that is why an "official Crossanization" of the OT, NT and koran is so very important.

Observer12:

Your suggestion, with the CNN link provided, that Indian NSG commandis killed the Israeli Jews at the Nariman House, is indeed shocking. Though I am an Indian by birth I have no special fancy for India being tough on terror.

However this is a Times of India newslink. This says that Israeli ministry denies that NSG commandos did not kill any Jewish people at the Nariman house. The link is below:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/World/NSG_did_not_kill_hostage_Israel/articleshow/3786021.cms

Whom should we accept ? You or Israel's official position ? Why ?

astoria- did a little research on Col Khajawall- he;s a fake. There are over 2000 google references to him- almost all of them go to posts he himself has made. The credentials he lists when researched make no reference to him and someone on another blog did a military search and the man does not exist.

"The other doctor, who had also conducted the post-mortem of the victims, said: 'Of all the bodies, the Israeli victims bore the maximum torture marks. It was clear that they were killed on the 26th itself. It was obvious that they were tied up and tortured before they were killed. It was so bad that I do not want to go over the details even in my head again,' he said.

Corroborating the doctors' claims about torture was the information that the Intelligence Bureau had about the terror plan. 'During his interrogation, Ajmal Kamal said they were specifically asked to target the foreigners, especially the Israelis,' an IB source said."

http://worldnews.about.com/b/2008/12/02/signs-of-torture-on-mumbai-victims-especially-israelis.htm

Interestingly, most of them weren't Israeli. Hate to think of what going around coming around.

Gee. Hate to think about it.

Colonel Khajawall-
WOW.

"a consequence of occupation, suppression, alienation, victimization, degradation, desperation, helplessness, hopelessness, and depression the ordinary people are led to suicide.In the process, some times, they are driven to the evil acts and spread their pain and apathy around as they have resorted to these evil acts over centuries."

Nicely put-
I see you are retired from working with DAV-

No one ever asks the question, Why?
What drives people to do these thing?
What compels them to such desparation?

From the comfrot of America we can sit bakc and say- it is their beliefs- they are just evil- but there are no evil babies- many conditions make the terrorists a terrorist.

When we start to question the conditions that create these people- we may start to fidure out how to change the conditions, to even admit that a problem exists- is a good start.

Clearly the circle of finger pointing is not the way-

Mr Patel- thanks for your slice of poetry and making your ometown come alive for us-
it was vibrant and palpable.

"The other doctor, who had also conducted the post-mortem of the victims, said: 'Of all the bodies, the Israeli victims bore the maximum torture marks. It was clear that they were killed on the 26th itself. It was obvious that they were tied up and tortured before they were killed. It was so bad that I do not want to go over the details even in my head again,' he said.

Corroborating the doctors' claims about torture was the information that the Intelligence Bureau had about the terror plan. 'During his interrogation, Ajmal Kamal said they were specifically asked to target the foreigners, especially the Israelis,' an IB source said."

http://worldnews.about.com/b/2008/12/02/signs-of-torture-on-mumbai-victims-especially-israelis.htm

Interestingly, most of them weren't Israeli. Hate to think of what going around coming around.

Indians are cowards. They cannot take swift and decisive action. Counterexamples are USA & Israel. India knows only posturing, while it allows its citizens to die cheap.

India needs to be recolonized and its moth-eaten, begged Independence (Swaraj) needs to be dumped into the dustbin of history.

A soverign nation protects its citizens. India cannot (or will not) protect its common citizens. It needs to be recolonized.

Any takers ?

"As if any more disturbing details about the Mumbai massacre could emerge, it's now being reported that many of the victims were also tortured -- and no one more so than the Israelis killed in the Chabad house. DEBKAfile reports that Rivka Holtzberg, wife of the center's rabbi, Gavriel, was also six months pregnant, and that the toddler rescued from the house by his Indian nanny bore bruises indicating that the captors had beaten him."

http://worldnews.about.com/b/2008/12/02/signs-of-torture-on-mumbai-victims-especially-israelis.htm

Mumbai, formerly known as Bombay until only 5 or 7 years ago, may collectively have been traditionally resilient.

But with the recent terror attack, that may change 'somewhat.'

Below is a quote from Bombay as to the especially aggressive nature of this specific attack.
---------------------------

Asked specifically if he was talking of torture marks, he said: "It was apparent that most of the dead were tortured. What shocked me were the telltale signs showing clearly how the hostages were executed in cold blood," one doctor said.

The other doctor, who had also conducted the post-mortem of the victims, said: "Of all the bodies, the Israeli victims bore the maximum torture marks. It was clear that they were killed on the 26th itself. It was obvious that they were tied up and tortured before they were killed. It was so bad that I do not want to go over the details even in my head again," he said.

....

CCNL:

Have you noticed some of the postings around here? Why do I think some Jews may not be in the mood to wait until you Christians fix yourselves via crossanization?

Ask my why I left the church.

CCNL:

I find confusing your posts on the fall of Jericho, which you have repeatedly claimed never happened thousands of years ago as the Tankh, also thousands of years old states.

If you're now saying it did happen, then God is great indeed. Joshua, chosen by God, fought the battle of Jericho and the walls came tumbling down.

I'm glad to see you finally accept the legitimacy of the Tanakh.

In the meantime, the reports on terrorist acts by Christians and Muslims against innocent Jewish people, like Gavriel and Rivka, teports commissioned by the US, Britain, and the EU concern the last seven years up to the present.

Since we've already shown the fallacy of your "statistical" argument, I await a non-theological one.
-------------------------------

For Rivka, Gavriel, Moshe et al targeted because they were Jews, not because they were part of the oppressive Hindu regime that treats Muslims as second-class citizens and always has.

Lest we forget you, Gavriel, Rivka, Moshe.

England:
Report of the All-party Inquiry into Anti-semitism
http://www.thepcaa.org/Report.pdf
_________________________

US Report on Anti-semitism
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/102301.pdf

_______________________
EU Report on Antisemitism 2001-2007: Updated 2008

http://fra.europa.eu/fra/index.php?fuseaction=content.dsp_cat_content&catid=449677441f3f3

EU report: widely held that some incendiary information was suppressed

ccnl- I think you need to get over Jericho. Considering it was thousands of years in the past (if it in fact did occur) it's ridiculous to use it to make your argument. It actually works against it because it sound so stupid. Something I never assumed you were.

And frankly, using the Israeli-Palestinian issue as an excuse for terrorism is pretty stupid in any case.

Did a little research on Col. A.M. Khajawall[Ret] MD., ABFM., ABDA.Seems the only reference to him and all his trappings are the ones he himself has posted in over 1500 blogs. Nor is he mentioned is association with any of the organizations he lists. think he is about as legit as a 3 dollar bill.

Observer,

Terror activities against and by Jews and other religious sects are not new. (e.g. the Jewish atrocities at Jericho vividly described in the OT).

Demographics play a major role as do the myths of the NT that blame the Jews for the crucifixion of the over-hyped simple preacher man named Jesus. A good dose of "Crossanization" of all religions will fix a lot of this. Are you ready to "Crossanize" orthodox Judaism??

It's not Kashmir.
It's not Palestine, its Islam.
Mumbai is an ideal place for terrorists to attack. Mumbai is a hub for business, rich people from the world come there to conduct business transactions, and it’s a very expensive city, a perfect terrorist’s site for attack, very similar to New York.

Dance, sing on, carnival? Abhorrent to Islam and mainly to the "traditionalists" whom we fondly refer to as the Islamists.

"There is the carnival of fashion: young men on motorcycles wearing flared jeans and loose fitting cotton shirts, young women experimenting with bright styles that mix India and America, stores advertising bridal outfits and others displaying matching jewelry."

Which form of Islam allows fashion and young women mingling with the opposite sex in public? Bomb those people who flaunt their bodies- Fahashi isn't that what you call that?

Muslims need to focus on the real problem, there are some preaching a peaceful form of Islam, and unfortunately they preach to the wrong people. WAPO should fund a free first class ticket and free room/board for Karachi/Lahore/Peshawar in Pakistan and preach there your form of Islam. Give them the same message you give us. You may even die for a cause, and then we'll know you are sincere. Don't you think a riot is in order from the peaceful Muslims...? Should we be expecting one soon, perhaps in Denmark?

Thank you Mr. Patel for the beautiful and heartfelt post. Terrorism affects everyone. It solves nothing, it accomplishes nothing. Only when the very societies that support it understand this, we will always have terrorism.

I totally agree with you Abhab- the Palestinians have been used by the Arabs as an excuse for every act of terrorism or discrimination they can think of.

Despite their perpetuation of a terrible situation, and a very cynical misuse by the Mumbai terrorists (why kill people in India if your problem is with Israel?)we still have morons like COL. A.M. Khajawall[Ret] MD., ABFM., ABDA. blaming Israel. As though terrorists need take no responsibility for their actions- it's all Israel's fault! That makes me think Mr. Khajawall, who claims to be a psychiatrist, may need one himself.

For Rivka, Gavriel, Moshe et al targeted because they were Jews, not because they were part of the oppressive Hindu regime that treats Muslims as second-class citizens and always has.

Lest we forget you, Gavriel, Rivka, Moshe.

England:
Report of the All-party Inquiry into Anti-semitism
http://www.thepcaa.org/Report.pdf
_________________________

US Report on Anti-semitism
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/102301.pdf

_______________________
EU Report on Antisemitism 2001-2007: Updated 2008

http://fra.europa.eu/fra/index.php?fuseaction=content.dsp_cat_content&catid=449677441f3f3

EU report: widely held that some incendiary information was suppressed.

Thanks for the uplifting editorial. If the 19 million residents allow terrorists to mute "the carnival music known as Mumbai" then the terrorists win. I'm happy to read that the tragic events of the last few days has not kept the people of Mumbai from going about their daily routines. Life goes on.

I am normally used to posting critique of anything Ebrahim says. But not this time! I think we are in this together!
Among the carnage, came a hopeful news today! The Indian Muslim council has refused to bury the terrorists in their graveyards! That action really speaks loudly! This is an affirmation that overwhelming majority of Indian Muslims are strongly and with their hearts against this carnage!
In fact a large majority of Pakistanis are against this too!
This is a carnage. Whatever intellectual disagreements we may have, one fact is clear! Only Muslims can route out this cancer from among us! They seem to have started to realize this and are they are taking steps to do the chemotherapy!

Dear Readers,

Islamic terror is dominating Sub-Continent and Dear Panelist advises *Carnivals*.I hope no bomb is detonated during Carnivals.
200 people were murdered and Dear Panelist says *Lets do Carnivals* and someones post *well written*
My God,please,protect my mind.

Arminius,

*These madmen must be stopped(who will stop and how),and peace and tolerance should be the norm*
Tolerance against islamic terror ? Let me love my mind.

I am sick of those who use the Palestinian plight as club to beat on the heads of whoever they do not like. Now even Kashmiris are listing Palestine as one of their main grievances. We are used to hearing the Arab countries employ the Palestine tragedy as a tool to camel trade for their selfish political and financial benefits. Now others who barely know where Palestine is located are joining in the festival of alligator tears. We hear that Arab countries have most of the world’s oil reserves and some like Saudi Arabia has 80 thousand millionaires ,the United Arab Emirates has 50 thousand millionaires while Sudan has a million square miles of the most fertile lands in the world. What have those countries done for their ”Palestinian brethren” but lip service? We are constantly reminded that Muslims are one Nation and that there are 1.5 billion of them. This is fourth the world population. What have all those numbers done for the Palestinians or anyone else’s benefit ? Complain about being victimized is what they are good at.

Well written, Dr. Patel.

Islamic cemeteries urged not to accept bodies of terrorists

http://www.gulfnews.com/world/India/10264188.html

I have read your article Eboo and am heartened by the humanity and good will of it.
Tell me now exctly who did all of this killing?

CCNL:

You neglected to post deaths by honor killings in Palestine, deaths by extra-judicial means by Palestinians, etc.

I'm surprised as you're usually so thorough.

And then there was the slaughter of Argentinian Jews, the horrible assaults on Jews in England, France, etc., here. Perhaps, you need to consult the links I posted.

Then compare and contrast with the numbers of Muslims and Christians attacked by Jews in the same countries.

Thank you in advnce.

For Rivka, Gavriel, Moshe et al targeted because they were Jews, not because they were part of the oppressive Hindu regime that treats Muslims as second-class citizens and always has.

Lest we forget you, Gavriel, Rivka, Moshe.

England:
Report of the All-party Inquiry into Anti-semitism
http://www.thepcaa.org/Report.pdf
_________________________

US Report on Anti-semitism
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/102301.pdf

_______________________
EU Report on Antisemitism 2001-2007: Updated 2008

http://fra.europa.eu/fra/index.php?fuseaction=content.dsp_cat_content&catid=449677441f3f3

EU report: widely held that some incendiary information from being pulished.

As requested:

Again, the 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, US Troops 3,394 combat and 815 non-combat) and 89,544 – 97,762 Iraqi civilians killed,
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database which includes:

Deaths per day from suicide attacks and vehicle bombs (now includes non-vehicle suicide attacks) and deaths per day from gunfire / executions are also given.

For the Palestine-Israeli conflict/wars and body counts, reliable data are hard to come by. See some what appears to be reliable data at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_in_the_Israeli-Palestinian_conflict_2003

e.g.

Palestinians Deaths vs Israeli Death. September 28, 2000 - February 15, 2006
[Total Number of Palestinian deaths] : 4209

Children: 892
Women : 273
Men : 3044
[Palestinians killed by Jewish settlers] 72

[Palestinians killed as a result of Israeli shelling] : 83

[Deaths as a result of medical prevention at Israeli checkpoints] : 117

Of them stillbirths (born dead at checkpoints) : 31
[Number of Palestinians extra-judicially assassinated] : 561

Of them bystanders killed during extra-judicial operations: 253

[Total Number Israeli deaths]: 1556

Children : 113
Women : 305
Men : 603
Settlers : 213
Soldiers : 322

The body counts from other WOT fronts like Afghanistan, Kuwait, Bosnia, Kosovo and Somalia can be found via Google.

Eboo, I grieve for your wounded city. These madmen must be stopped, and peace and tolerance should be the norm.

Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God.

Arminius again appears to be challenged by history and facts.

Bun-Bun (CCNL)

Take your stupid lists and stuff 'em, you foul bigot.

CCNL...great....but how many civilians have the US/UK and Israel killed in their so-called WOT?

Eboo, Eboo, Eboo,

You still don't see the problem!!! Spare us your stories about shoe stores in hotels and get to the foundation of Islamic terror i.e. the warmongering, global Islamic dominance and hate/death to all infidels' passages in the Worst Book Ever Written i.e. your koran.

Until this SOP of terror and death is cleaned up, the blood-letting will never end!!!!

To wit:

1a) 179 killed in Mumbai/Bombay, 290 injured

1b) Assassination of Benazir Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh

2) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens, 1000’s injured

3) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, US Troops 3,394 combat and 815 non-combat) and 89,544 – 97,762
Iraqi civilians killed, http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ and
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf

4) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.[2]

5) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.

6) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.

7) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.

8) UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.

For the triumph of evil it is necessary that concerned people, parties and politicians around the world do nothing "

I as a concerned citizen of the United States of America and World. I do not justify and like any evil acts of terror and terrorism. As a psychiatrist I can say that as a consequence of occupation, suppression, alienation, victimization, degradation, desperation, helplessness, hopelessness, and depression the ordinary people are led to suicide.In the process, some times, they are driven to the evil acts and spread their pain and apathy around as they have resorted to these evil acts over centuries. We should not forget the plight of Kashmiris, Palestinians, and many more people around the world at the hands of state sponsored terror and terrorism as perpetuated by India in Kashmir and Israel in Palestine. These kind of situations result in these heinous and evil acts around the world. Do not expect U.S.A. and president elect Obama to do much about it. It is Global problem and all concerned people, parties, and politicians need to think out of
box and address these issues candidly and openly without shifting blame around. I suggest the President Elect Obama appoint Hon. former President Bill Clinton to resolve Kashmir issue between Kashmiris, Indians, and Pakistan and out going president Hon. George W Busy to resolve Palestinian issue between Is israel and Palestinian authorities as that has his goal to do so before he passes on the presidency onto president elect Obama.

Yours Truly,

COL. A.M. Khajawall[Ret] MD., ABFM., ABDA.
First Secretary: Kashmir American Mission[KAM]
Founder: Kashmiri American Council[KAC]
Chief Consultant: World Wide Professional Consultants[WWPC]
Colonel, USAR /MC Combat Stress Control[Ret], Disabled American Veteran
Consultant Psychiatrist: CA State, Medical Board of California, and Los Angeles Mental Health Department
Mailing Address: P.O.BOX 4040, Diamond Bar California, 91765-0040 USA,