The question is what is the absolute truth?
if we believe in relevant truth, that leads to two options all of us we are right about god even if this god contradicts himself from time to time or even if he has no clue about what and how he created the planet earth for intense we need to submit to allah (god)
of Islam even if he is saying the planet earth is flat (Soura Alhejr 15:19)and (Al nahel 16:15) read the Altabari interpretations in Arabic not in English because there no accurate translations for this verses from Quran to english language.

The second option is that there is something wrong about these gods and we need to admit that we made them and promoted them for our personal proposes Explain to me how god Allah authorized Mohammed “the Prophet” to marry whoever he wanted and he married 13 women among of them Ayesha his “favorite wife” 6 years old while he was 46 and the same god authorized the Muslim males. to marry only four. Cant you see that allah was made by Muhammed. Would free yourself from the box that Muhammed put you on and lucked that box by saying “whoever change his religion kill him”

I challenge Mr. Eboo the writer of this article to go to Egypt , Saudia Arabia or Pakistan and say I want to change my religion. Enough hypocrisy, Mr Ebbo want us to believe that others can make peace with Muhammed doctrine “the quran”, he is trying to inject the western values in a Budwin Ideology. I am sorry it wont work and the prove is look at the all Islamic countries.

The question still is and will remain what is the absolute truth? Relevant truth is a lie.. It is not truth.

Well that is good to hear that you do not believe I will be in eternal damnation just because I don't worship a god by a certain name. That is not my take on the Koran, but I think it is a belief you and I can share.

As to god's mercy, I do believe we are never separated from god. There is no outside of god. As such, we are already in god and thus in bliss. I can't prove that to anyone but if you are a sufi, you may already agree with me on that. Thus there is only the suffering of my insistence that I am not with god. My ego. Suffering (and all hells), then is the result of my ego demand on reality to be other than it is. God teaches us through our life and non-life experiences to realize the truth as it is. If your construct of hell is temporary and a place to consume karmic consequence, we are in agreement. But, by being temporary, it is a learning place. Once it becomes and eternal fire, then it is only punishment.

As to the idea of god superiority, I am pointing out a double standard that places islam above other religions, not the other way. I am pointing out that Hindu scriptures never mention god hating anyone and there is not eternal damnation. This is not a subtle semantic point. I do find that theology rather uplifting - but still consider it an objective fact until someone can give me a counter example. If they do find a counter example, then I have to resort to, "in the most part...", for now, I suspect there is no counter example.

Of course you want to believe that your religion is superior, just as christians do. I want to believe that my approach to truth has given me some insight that has validity. The fact that my parents raised me secular provided me with enough skepticism to all religions to see them as abstract constructs that affect human history and allow comparisons. As it happens, I find the diversity and devotion to truth of Hinduism most appealing. So, like you and everyone else, I hope my way is the right way. (Un)Fortunately for me, my way says there is no one way, no one son of god, no one last prophet, no one book, no one simple belief. But that's the challenge that God has allowed me, it is not for everyone.

hariaum

Navin,

Ok I hadnt read the second part of your post. This will be my last post for today. If you respond, you'll have to wait till tommorow for my response~!

My understanding of Karmic consequences is that they are based upon the magnitude of your deeds. So for a smaller sin you spend less time in hell and for a bigger sin your punishment is extended. In Islam it is pretty much the same. There are sins where you do not face hell as your eternal abode and are forgiven after a certain period. Again, we are getting into the Semantics. If you believe that God should be all forgiving, then why are we to be punished for our sins in the first place. I think your argument should be either God forgives us for all our sins since he is so magnanimous. But that would turn the whole working of this world upside down. Freewill will be the guiding path of all of man's actions and there will be no order left. So if its just the severity of the punishment that is your argument I believe its a mute Point. I do not know what will happen to me after I am dead, I do not know. I'll readily take the word of Allah transmitted via his last prophet though. Its not incumbent upon you if you do not wish to. No one is forcing you to accept Islam. We will eventually find out about our fate's when we die. But its just that the tone of your argument that my God is bigger than your God, which I find repulsive.

Not sure where I sent a cheap shot, sorry if you felt that.

In Hinduism there is karmic consequence. That is as you point out, fairly universal (except for those undergoing salvation by proxy and salvation by group membership which is then non-karmic). But Swarg and nareq are temporary places. Not eternal damnation. We carry heaven and hell with us in the moment. It is not just a temporal end point.

Do you believe that in Islam eternal damnation is not a real construct? Is Heaven and Hell in islam a temporary place or the end? Frankly, whether it is islam or christian or ancietn greek, if a god condemns ignorant humans to eternal suffering because they made a poor choice, that is not merciful. It does not take mercy to forgive a person who agrees with you. It is mercy to forgive someone even if they hurt you. (Since God can not be hurt, then it this would apply particularly to slander - refutation - etc).

hariaum

Navin,

The Surah's you have just quoted deal with the rewards and punishments in the afterlife. The concept of heaven and hell is not alien to any other religion including Hinduism. Isnt their the concept of Swarg and Narg in your religion? Who goes to Narg? Infact in hinduism it is believed that if some person does evil in this life in the next life he/she is incarnated as a monkey or any other animal. What do you think is the purpose of that. Why do all religions put so much empahsis on doing good and refraining from evil? Whats the catch if one does good deeds or evil deeds. Hence the concept of Jannah and Jahnnum in Islam, Heaven and Hell in Christianity and Swarg and Narg in Hinduism. Now we are getting into whole semantics of these things and these nitty gritties take time to explain. But you seem like someone who is not interested in debate and only interested in throwing insults and cheap shots. We can have a civil discussion if you behave civilly and respectfully towards my religion. Otherwise I have many other things where I can put my spare time to good use.

Salam Alaikum~!

Yassar

I appreciate your last note. Thanks. I (and though I have never met Matahari) Matahari's belief is that if muslims are free to pick and choose parts of the Koran, then we have a more free discussion of religion and coming together. But if muslims have to take the Koran as the literal word of God and thus not modifiable, then we have a book that promotes violence and the us v them morality.

Nothing is all or none. The koran, mo, yourself, are not perfect. Nor am I. We need an open dialogue to promote a deeper understanding of goodness and love. I do believe there is not a single time I have read of a Hindu god that condemns someone to eternal hell. That is the action of a spiteful god that made a mistake and is trying to cover it up. But I do believe you have the right to worship such a god. But if you could find such a statement, of course in Hinduism we are taught to go past any scripture for the true scripture is in the heart of man. Never the less, a scripture that curse humans and says us v them is no longer of utility in the modern world - either we all survive and get along or we kill each other to anhialation while proving this ideology is better than that (I have the right but you don't...).

On the other hand, even a city, either Mecca or Vatican City, where Hindus are not allowed to build a temple and worship freely (or animists, or buddhists, or mayans) that is validated by a cultural set of beliefs argues for one group feeling a moral right to greater religious freedom than those groups / cultures that let you build a temple wherever you want. This is a double standard against the very principle of tolerance. If such a city is supported by religions or cultures, then other groups (Hindus, mayans, buddhists) have the same moral right to tear down mosques and churches wherever they have the power to do so. (Most Hindus do not believe they have this right as they do not worship a name, but the truth behind a name and assume you do as well.)

hariaum

So here are some quotes from surah 2 of Al Fatiha that show allah hates:

2:39. And the ones who repudiated and belied Our signs, then these are the Companions of The Fire, they are in it eternally. 

98."Whoever is an enemy to Allah, and His angels, and His messengers, and Gabriel and Michael - then assuredly Allah is an enemy to the repudiators."

159. Assuredly the ones who suppress what We descended of the manifestations and the guidance - after We manifested it to humanity in the writ - those, curses them does Allah and curse them do the cursing ones...

161. Assuredly the ones who repudiated, and died while they were repudiators, those are the ones who upon them is the curse of Allah, and the angels, and humanity, all.

162. Eternally they are in it, lightened not off of them is the torment and not are they reprieved.

193. And fight them until there be no test (remaining) and the religion is (that) for Allah; so if they cease, then no transgression except against the oppressors.

257. Allah is the trustee of the ones who have faith, He issues them from the darknesses into the light.  And the ones who repudiated, their trustees are the tyrannical (things), they issue them from the light into the darknesses; those are the Companions of The Fire, they are in it eternally.

279. So if you don't do it, then be announced of a war from Allah and His messenger; and if you repent, then for you is your money's principal - you oppress not, and not are you oppressed. 

- so if you're with him, he loves you. If not he curses you. And some are foolish enough to call this a merciful god. I am the infidel idolator. I worship truth and deny the prophethood of moham, jesus, and abraham. Your god hates me. He is finite in his love. I have no need to worship a finite love.

hariaum

Navin,

I hope you understand the motivation from my side to conduct this discussion. I do not mean in any way to demean hinduism. I have respect for your religion and your religous dieties for the simple reason that they are of reverence to you and millions of other hindus.

The point that I think you are trying to make is that Quran is all about violence and hatred and that it is different from other religous texts. That I believe is a misconception on your side. The Holy Quran is virtually a guide book which gives you a practical path to lead your life. So you cannot pick and choose some surah's from the Holy Quran where it tells the believers to fight the forces of evil and those who attack you and say here......Its Preaching violence (Nauzubillah) and then again in similar cicumstances such instances are provided in your own religous texts you attempt to construe different meaning. Btw you actually havent given me the translation of the part of the Quran you had issues with. Maybe I can rid you of your confusion and open your mind to understanding muslims better.

With regards to Mecca and Medina, yes just two places on earth in muslim lands where you cannot build your temples. Would you mind telling how many hindu temples are there in the vatican city, or Jerusalem? None! coz there are no Hindus there. There were never any Hindus in Mecca and Medina so really its a moot point to raise. Hindus are living all over the Arab peninsula (2.7 million according to wikipedia) happily and follow their religion as well. The Arabs welcome them and their standard of living is generally a lot higher than that of their brothers and sisters in India. Why aren't you appreciative of that? Hindus have also built temples for themselves all over Arabia except 2 cities! I do not see a problem with that. No one is telling you that you are barred from practicing your religion in this whole country!

So if in Mecca and Medina, there is intolerance for idols and other forms of worship, while you (not individually of course) demand the right to worship freely where ever you go, don't you create a double standard: My rights to worship are greater than your rights to worship. If Hindus and buddhists said, you can not worship in our country (or say the French say no scarves), this is our tradition, would you not see it as an oppression. Thus, in honesty, you must see the cultural disempowerment by the Saudi people against Hindus and others as oppression of religious freedom. If you are voicing religious freedom for all people then you must voice against the prevention of building Hindu temples in Mecca and Medina.

hariaum

I asked for a quote about god hating. You gave examples, not quotes, about humans hating (mahabharat has a lot to do with human frailty of knowledge). As the the Gita, as you may know, the arguement for war is an argument of just war base on egolessness and renunciation of results (including the attainment of heaven). The Ramayana is a war epic, but Rama repeatedly says if Ravana will return Sita Rama will walk away. Even when Ravana is killed, his soul enters into Rama as a fulfillment of Ravana Karma - even the enemy of god is taken into the being of god. That is hardly a doctrine of hate.

The battle between the Pandus and Kurus was brought on by the Kurus who kept trying to kill the Pandus. Each time the Pandus tried to let the Kurus have what they wanted, that was not enough for them. The war was forced on the Panduvas. Even then they were trying not to fight but were asked to defend other states against the Kuruva oppression. When Arjuna (a Pandu) refuses to fight, it is because he does not want to fight because he loves his enemies - no hate. As to the Kurus, they do hate. It is their egos that causes them to hate.

I do not know of anytime that God says he/she hates in Hindu scriptures.

Hariaum

Navin1 wrote,

Could you please site a source in Hinduism where god says he hates or has eternal damnation: standard Scriptures: Gita, Ramayana, Shiva sastra, Vedas, Upanishads?

**************************************************************************************

Although you havent addressed me in your post, I am assuming you are posting in response to my claim that Hindu religous texts are full of hatred for pagans as well. I stick to my claim. There are thousands of references to violence in Mahabharta. I am not aware which one you've been reading. Havent you read of the Holy War Lord Rama fought against Rawan of Srilanka? or the fight between Pandu and Gauravs?

Let me quote you Bhagvud Gita Chap.2 verse 50 Lord Krishan is telling Arjun to fight a holy war! If you read the Chapter one of the same book there's a dialogue where Arjun argues with Krishna that how can he kill his own cousins and Krishna admonishes Arjun for having such impure thoughts. He tells him to fight his enemies and kill them and if he doesnt he would not be worthy of the swarg (heaven)~! So you see If I am to take it out of context and like that Bigot Matahari start spreading falsehood that Hinduism is a religion of hatred because it condones violence without mentioning the context it would be untrue. The Holy Quran also talks in contexts when it says to attack those who attack you. This concepts is universal in the Bible and Torah as well. The chapter 2 of the holy Quran is also the longest Chapter. If you tell me the exact translation you were referring to maybe i'll be better able to explain you the context.

True Hindus aren't allowed to pray in Mecca and Medina like Christians and Jews arent, because there are no places of worship for them over there. So its not Hindu specific. This has been the custom from the time of Holy Prophet. However, over a million Hindus are happy to leave their own country and live and work in Saudi Arabia peacefully. There are places of worship for them as well. I saw one temple myslef while I was in Dammam. and there are others as well all over arabia where an estimated 2.7 million expatriate hindus live.

I never seeked any forgiveness from you. I dont even know you and frankly do not know where the heck you got this idea from. I can tell you Ive had hindu friends in Pakistan since my school days and when we lived in old Karachi there were a lot of Hindu neighbours and they are free to pray and celebrate their religous festivals. Only we do not brag about it because frankly its no big deal people following their religion. So yea.......I think you need to make a better argument what exactly is your gripe with Islam.

Could you please site a source in Hinduism where god says he hates or has eternal damnation: standard Scriptures: Gita, Ramayana, Shiva sastra, Vedas, Upanishads?

By surah 2 your god is burning sould eternally (by the translation you offer). Not very merciful is he. Since I have a deep faith in God that is truth and this god of surah 2 is burning people in hell who do not belong to his group, I feel fair to conclude he is a petty god.

So you can call other people bigot, that only proves the hate that your religious book has taught you. But perhaps I am wrong and you have read a Hindu scripture that I have not. Put up or recognize your own bigotry.

Then go and lecture in Mecca how their bigotry is stopping Hindus from worshiping freely in Mdda while mulims get to worship in Benares.

As to mercy, who has greater freedom to worship: a hindu in Saudi Arabia or a muslim in India. You also, by the way, have no clue if Matahari is Hindu. Your bigotry makes you jump to conclusions. I am Hindu and forgive your arrogance. If you want to worship you god near my home, I welcome it. I hope you would have the same mercy.

hariaum

Halozcel wrote,

"Correct answer should be *No,there is NOT any hate in my Book*"

I stand corrected~!

**Have you ever read your Hindu Text.Its full of hatred for thr Pagan as well**

This answer proves the accuracy/correctness of other poster assertions/accusations.
It means *your text is full of hatred,so is mine as well*,like a Turkish Proverb
*My saucepan bottom is black,but yours is blacker than mine* It's illogical reply.

First Chapter or Second chapter or fourth one or eighth one or fiftyth one....What changes.....Arent there a lot of hate,at least hundred ones,from beginning to end of the Book ?

Correct answer should be *No,there is NOT any hate in my Book*

Matahari wrote,

"There is too much violence and hatred right in the 1st chapter of quran directed toward jews and pagans. I really doubt if there will ever be peace unless Muslims stop believing that quran is a work of god and not some warlord."

*************************************************

Hey Hindu Bigot, have you ever read the First chapter of the Quran. Here's a hint.....Open google and type Al-Fatiha Translation. Stop fanning the fires of hatred, but I guess its something you Hindus are only adept at. Have ever read your Hindu religous text. Its full of hatred for the Pagans as well. What mercy did you guys shower upon Rawan??

UNYIELDING HONOR WORLD WAR III

Weakness invites moral plight, war and aggression
Encouraged by mistrust, misjudgment and delay.
All we love can be destroyed and transformed
By the powers of darkness maneuvering our way.

When something wicked stares us in the face
To corrupt our morals, faith and resolve.
God gives us courage to defend what’s right
No matter the sacrifice or danger involved.

Evil seeks to destroy the good in man
And silence the memory of God’s law.
It’s up to the faithful to stay unyielding
Defending the liberty and justice of all.

Our men and woman who serve in harm’s way
Are the armor of what the free world depends on.
Without their sacrifice of body and soul
All that we stand for is gone.

By Conservative Poet
Tom Zart
Most Published Poet
On The Web

TOM ZART’S RADIO POEMS

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of love, war, faith and more 24-7 on web radio at

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Tom Zart ARCHIVES:

Forums-War Poet Tom Zart : Veterans Today - News for U.S. Military ...

SACRIFICE, TRANSFORMATION, AND UNRESTRICTED WARFARE

The Japanese hadn't lost a war since 1598
Each man carried 400 rounds of ammunition
(twice as many as an American infantryman)
With five days rations and fearless determination.

The men in the badly wrapped brown uniforms
Since their early childhood had been taught
That to die for the emperor and one's country
Was the greatest of all glories to be sought.

Moreover, the hardware backing them was awesome
As sharpshooters they were accurate up to a thousand yards and more.
Their ships were faster, their guns bigger, Their torpedoes better
And their planes matchless in quality, aerobatics and score.

Only by sacrifice, transformation, and unrestricted warfare
Was America able to overcome and prevail.
Again America must stand firm to survive
As we face a new monster from Hell.

By Conservative Poet
Tom Zart
Most Published Poet
On The Web

TOM ZART’S RADIO POEMS

You can hear all of Tom Zart’s 350 poems
of love, war, faith and more 24-7 on web radio at

http://internetvoicesradio.com/Arch-TomZart.htm

Tom Zart ARCHIVES:

Forums-War Poet Tom Zart : Veterans Today - News for U.S. Military ...

There is too much violence and hatred right in the 1st chapter of quran directed toward jews and pagans. I really doubt if there will ever be peace unless Muslims stop believing that quran is a work of god and not some warlord.

Why is the faith of a suicide bomber invalid? Is it just because his intended victims would prefer to live peaceful lives and not get blown up? For those who believe in undirected evolution, this can be the only rationale; for the planet has apparently established both religious and cultural animosity as invaluable survival mechanisms. On the other hand, if there is a Creator God, then it stands to reason that He has but one sense of morality and one understanding of truth. Anything contrary to these would represent either ignorance or deceitfulness, and to promote anything else would be to make oneself an enemy of God. It should be self-evident that a "multi-cultural society" is an oxymoron. There will always be animosity when cultures mix for it is inherent to our very existence as human beings. Are we to defy the evolutionary principles that engendered and preserve our very existence? Or are we to tolerate other values and other "truths" and thereby allow these to water down the cohesiveness of American society?

I should know better than to try and bring a little levity, but I really do have to say the words 'Jerusalem YMCA' bring to mind some amusing versions of Village People numbers. :)

Sounds like a really good idea, though. People argue a lot about the barriers. No one says the kids have to inherit them.