It's time once more for the five questions, the ones that take us to the core of Islam in America. What makes them more relevant than ever is the fact that no Muslim has ever dared to answer them.

Look at what is considered to be orthodox Islam by its most authoritative voices. Now, I would like to pose five questions to those authorities:

1. Does Islam allow for the separation of church and state?
2. Does Islam allow for the full legal equality of women?
3. Does Islam allow for religious pluralism? For example, if a Muslim male married a Christian female, would the husband and wife be able to say to their children, “We will attend the mosque on Friday and the church on Sunday and consider ourselves a bi-religious family. When each of you is 18 years old, you will be free to choose. You can continue of bilateral approach; or, you can choose one religion over the other; or, you can choose another religion altogether.”
4. What does Islam say (according to the above authoritative voices) should be the fate of heretics? For example, if a member of the Egyptian soccer team got up tomorrow morning and announced he was converting from Islam to Christianity and changing his name from Mohammad Ali to Cassius Clay, what do the authoritative voices of Islam say should be his fate?
5. Does Islam allow for the publication of a scholarly book alleging that Mohammad was a fraud?

(Instead of posing the questions to the authoritative voices of Islam, imagine the question was, “What would Islamic textbooks used in the teaching of Muslim students in America say in answer to the following questions?”)

Groucho42,

Are you saying there is absolutely no discrimination against muslims (of Pakistani origin) in UK? Well that could just be your opinion and most reasonable people will disagree with that.

There are many misconceptions regarding Sharia Law~! It isnt just about chopping off heads or hands. It deals with every aspect of a muslims life from Commerce and Trade to Martital Matters. A lot of Sharia laws are inline with western laws, some of which may have been inspired by Sharia Law at some point in time. The first high profile figure to ask for Sharia Law in UK wasn't a muslim guy but a High Profile Anglican Priest. They are only demanding Sharia laws, that are inline with western values. Besides it isn't as if they are violently asking for it to be imposed. In a democracy you are given the right top peacefully persue what you believe is your right. If the government doesn't give them Sharia Laws, I believe they'll move on. There's no harm in asking though. Sharia can only be imposed on muslims anyway.

The term Eurabia is racist anyway~! I know its was first coined by a Zionist woman. There are many reasons for the Oil embargo of the '70's. Which ones are you talking about?

groucho42, you said,
"Muslims in the UK are demanding Sharia law..."

sheesh, even when they move to another culture they want to BRING entanglement of mosque and state with them. islam cannot be islam with separation of mosque and state. entanglement is "built in" to islam.

then, you said,
"...and many non-Muslims are supporting them."

really?!

"There is no denying the discrimination muslims face in UK."

Of course there is, yasseryousufi. Muslims in the UK are demanding Sharia law and many non-Muslims are supporting them. Muslim leaders in the UK regularly and openly support jihad and aren't arrested.

Read Eurabia by Bat Yeor. It describes how Arab Muslims used oil in the 1970s to openly push for what's happening now. And don't start by saying that since you disagree with the conclusion, the facts presented in the book must be wrong.

Farnaz,

There is no denying the discrimination muslims face in UK. I think thats been a conclusion we had already reached. I was trying to give my perspective (which could be faulty~!) sitting and watching the situation from here with regards to the issues that bedevils muslims of Pakistani origin there. Surely it has to be a bit of both. But i'll admit Im hardly as lucky as you in terms of having witnessed different cultures first hand, so yea......cant compete with you at everything~!

But you're right that muslims in america are much better than those in UK. For the simple reasons that immigration criteria is such that only the best minds are able to get through them. And US for the most part has benefited with its immigration policy vis a vis India/Pakistan. Most of the people who get there are high achievers over here so they make the transition rather easily. Plus americans being a nation of immigrants are much more easy going than the Brits who used to rule India half a century ago.

Btw, you didnt respond to my post~! Didn't you find that Jewish Pathan link I posted queer?

Yasser,

Before you come to any conclusions about Pakistani Brits, visit England. The BBC nonsense you watch is hardly representative of England.

South Asians are ghettoized and discriminated against in every sphere of life. The racism against Pakistanis, Caribbeans, Indians, Bangladeshi is mind-boggling.

Racism, bigotry are systemic problems. The effects of bigotry cannot be cured by individual will. They are systemic.

While Indians who settled awhile back have done better, the reasons have more to do with the Brits than with the Indians. A long story.

This does not mean that Indians are treated well. More and more, we see in the US, Indian immigrants who have come here after having spent several miserable years in England.

The English are significantly behind the US with respect to racism, sexism, xenophobia. They are virulently antisemitic, still refer to the Irish Catholics as "dumb Irish," loathe them.

Take a trip there, my friend. Take a trip, and despair.

Mary,

Thanks~! I think you've put it all together very eloquently and there isn't much to disagree with what you say. The Pakistani's who went to UK were mostly mildly educated working class people from the rural areas of Punjab. They were of use to UK during the Industrial boom after the war right through to the 60's. For them it was an alien culture and one can imagine the culture shock they would have had when they reached England. So even though they didnt wanna go back to their dirt poor villages, at the same time they were fearfull of their new homeland, their biggest nightmare What if my daughter runs away with a white boy?? That would be the ultimate shame. So with that in mind they reared their children to be good muslims. But sadly with their lack of education and undersatnding of the society, they were ill equipped to raise their children who had so many distraction~! so naturally most of them became rebels as soon as they reached teenages. For their daughters they still go to Pakistan, get her married to one of her cousins in Pakistan, bring him to UK and who in turn brings his own brothers and family to UK. Most of these kids are misfits in the highly competitive corporate culture of work in UK. So yea, its one big mess! and your government has got its hands full. I think atleast for Imams you can make some precondition, requiring them to atleast complete a basic level of education, having lived in UK for a considerable time and able to converse in English. There's nothing discriminatory about that. Most muslim country's apply condition to a person before he becomes an Imam.

But really the bigger issue is immigration. There is increasing resentment of it all over Europe with an undercurrent of unabashed racism. Immigration is really a complex issue. The Europeans and Americans need to understand that they cannot have these islands of prosperity around oceans of despair, poverty and hunger etc. The elephant in the room is the fact that less than 20% of population of the world is utlizing more then 80% of its resources. The rich Nations have to give back atleast some of their illgotten wealths~! The BP's the Shell's the Halliburtons are raping the resources of poor countries of Africa, South America and Asia. The people from these places do not have much choice. Everyone wants to get out of this grinding poverty, to have a better future for their children. They'll come legally, illegally, by boat, on foot putting their lifes in danger.

Well there's just so much thats wrong with this world, one is lost for ideas. I dont think all our problems can be solved anyway. So all we can do is make the best out of whatever we got. I dont know if all this rant is even worth writing~! There's nothing new in what I say. But yea.....one cant stop being angry.....or sad~!

Pt II

Summary of social trends

Right now, the migrants are not doing especially well. Still, there *has* been progress in educational achievement and Bangladeshi youngsters report themselves “very encouraged” about their employment prospects (Bangladeshis settled primarily in East London and their young are well placed to gain employment in the capital).

More troublesome IMHO is the state of Islam in Britain. Resentment of both Islam and Muslim migrants by the white working class has increased steadily and the last few years have seen the rise of a nationalist party in England. I see this as primarily the result of an extremely dishonest immigration policy on the part of the British government although the behaviour of the most radical Islamic groups no doubt is a factor.

Why are British Pakistanis attracted to radical Islam?

If I had to give one answer it is because of their relatively poor situation vis a vis other ethnic groups and, of course, the host English. Simply put: they are at the bottom of the pile.

Additionally adequate Muslim role models were/are lacking—their fathers out of work or in very poorly paid jobs, their preachers from a background dissimilar to theirs, too few Muslim male teachers. The man most admired by British Muslims is (unbelievably!) Cat Stevens, now known as Yusef Islam, not Pakistani, Bangladeshi, not even a Gulf Arab, but a Greek convert to Islam.

This is all from me. It’s taken too much time for me to write but I hope it is helpful.

Regards,
MC

Yasser:
You asked me to speculate why Pakistani youth, born and raised in Britain, were attracted to radical Islam. I hope the following is not too lengthy.

1) Background of today’s situation: British Muslims overwhelmingly derive from the former West and East Pakistan, today Pakistan and Bangladesh. The first wave of migration occurred in the 1970s, the second, much larger, wave from 1997 onwards when the British government, for reasons known only to itself, basically threw open the door to economic migrants. Muslim migrants are permanent additions to the overall population. Very few return to their country of origin. Muslims today comprise about 3% of the UK population, their number set to rise to 5% due to a higher birthrate.

2) Today’s situation: the ONS (Office of National Statistics) Social Trends, 2009 provides some evidence. 44% of men born in Pakistan and 47% of those born in Bangladesh are currently in full time employment, the lowest employment of all groups born overseas. The remainder are on benefits. The prospects of their children are improving but from a shockingly low level. In 1999 less than 30% of Pakistani and Bangladeshi children attained 5 GSCEs (the minimum qualification for employment), the lowest of any ethnic group. This had improved markedly by 2006 to 51% and 55% respectively but it is still at the bottom of ethnic group achievement.

Islam in the United Kingdom

In contrast to the origin of British Muslims, Islam in Britain seems dominated by imans from Egypt and the Gulf. One of the oddest sights a new migrant from, say, Bangladesh will encounter in London are Bangladeshi women veiled in black, in the style of Gulf Arabs. The most radical preachers have hailed from Jordan and Lebanon (I think). A few of them have been barred from their native countries, as you said. The largest and most expensive mosque in Britain is in Regents Park, London and was built by the Saudis. The school attached to the mosque has had some of its books confiscated for calling infidels “pigs” and worse. These were aimed at 7 and 8 year old children.

Farnaz,

Here's a link you might find interesting~!

http://www.dangoor.com/74069.html

Hi Farnaz,

That 'Pakustan' was a typo~! Im sure you know that. But seriously if you feel like you have a thesis or a scholarly work to present you can always get in touch with me. my hotmail id is the same as this one. The people who attend these courses are some of the best minds in Pakistan. Ours is a very liberal organization and most speakers who come here criticize the government as much as they like coz everything is off the record~!

With regards to Dalits, If Indians are trying to end the caste system, good for them. They never should have started it in the first place. Its not even an issue in Pakistan. No caste systems here. In India, the untouchables number more than 220 million~! Some estimates put them at even 300 million~!Thats around twice the population of Pakistan and almost equal to USA, the third most populous country in the world! So really its India where its a Human rights issue and they are the ones who need to be pressurised.

The Jewish link of Pathans, is more of an academic subject to me~! No emotinal attachments as you may have noticed Im at peace with my religion~! And its just a theory. If you google 'Jews and Pathans', there are more than 5000 links that deal with this subject. Ill admit I havent read any of them so far, but its on my to do list. Ill let you know if I unearth some hidden secret~! But one theory thats put forward is that Pathans say they have Jewish roots because otherwise they would have to be Hindus or Buddhists before Islam came and that for them is a somewhat inferior position. With Jewish roots they can atleast claim we believed in one God even before Islam came. I wonder if you've also heard of the Kalasha people? They are the only remaining pagan tribe of Pakistan and trace back their roots all the way to the Macedonians~!

Yasser,

Clarification of preceding post: By "we," I mean my family and yours truly, in particular.

"In our case, I wish we at least could develop an interest in it, but that is another story."

Hi Yasser,

"See if you can impact the Public Policy makers of Pakustan!"

LOL! Not likely. The work I do for UNICEF is largely volunteer, although not always. I was dragged into it kicking and screaming by friends of mine, co-nationals of yours.

The Dalit of Asia aren't a high priority of UNICEF or of anyone else. That would be the bad news. The better news is that the situation is slowly changing, fear of offending India notwithstanding. Last year the first international conference on "untouchability" was held in London. Indian Dalit academics in the US have published books and articles.

If you clicked on the link to Human Rights Watch, you see that the "sweepers" of South Asia have at long last made it on their radar.

Some of my friends would know of your department, I'm sure, btw. I will email them on it.

As for tribal connections, anything is possible, I suppose! However, the prevailing view in Israel is that the Ethiopian Jews are the Tribe of Benjamin.

They came to Israel's attention in the early eighties when the Ethopians were undergoing horrific oppression stemming from their refusal to give up their faith and way of life. After Israeli scholars, rabbis, et al, had interviewed them, traced their oral narratives, found unmistakable consistency with Tanakh, it was determined that they were, in fact, Jews, most likely Benjaminites.

Many thousands of them were airlifted to Israel throughout the eighties and nineties. Problems with airlifting developed later on, and many, then, walked, yes, walked from Ethiopia to Israel, some caught in Sudan, en route, held and held captive, where they were tortured.

There are now one hundred thousand of them living in Israel.

You probably know that there are Jews throughout Africa....

As for love of money, I hear this from some of the Christians/Catholics, but I've never seen it among Jews. I have seen it among Punjabi (sorry), never among Pashtun. I can tell you I think it probably exists among all people. In our case, I wish we at least could develop an interest in it, but that is another story.

My friends also attended Catholic Schools. A Pashtun I know taught at the Chiefs School.

Well Pashtuns and Jewish people have this funny History. Most Pathans elders think that they are the lost tribe. There's book by Olaf Caroe called 'Pathans' which briefly deals with the subject. Plus there are a lot of videos on youtube trying to prove that link. I have no idea if its true. But my friends say that the biggest proof is our love for money~! Well whatever~!

....Dhaka NIPA was established in the pre-partition period rather than post partition~!

Hello Farnaz~!

Dalit maybe a generic term, but believe me I've never heard a Christian sweeper being called a dalit here. There are many issues with Christians of Pakistan. Those that I meet say there#1 issues vis a vis Pakistan are they blasphemy laws. There are a lot people working to repeal it (though I am not in favor of it, but that hardly counts~!), the former President Musharraf was all set to repeal them before he got weak in the last year of his Presidency. The sweeper issue is pretty low on the list of priorities christian rights workers here, if it were believe me I would hace heard it. But im pleased that UNICEF people are taking it up.

I work for National Institute of Management (Formerly NIPA) http://www.nim-khi.edu.pk/. It has branches in all four provincial capitals as well as one in Dhaka from our post partition days. Our job is to train mid career level civil servants of Pakistan in Public Policy, Management etc. and write their appraisals on which their promotions are based. Its a pretty extensive 4 month long course. And we invite dignitaries from all over Pakistan as well as abroad to conduct Lectures, Workshops, Seminars etc. We get people from the UN too. A couple of years ago we invited a guy from UNICEF by the name Dr. Asif Farrukhi to speak on the disaster management work UNICEF was doing in the areas affected by the earthquake. I wonder if you know him. Maybe we could invite you for a lecture or two if you like when you're around considering your varied experience of the region?? See if you can impact the Public Policy makers of Pakustan!

WmarkW : "There's Islam, here Eboo" and then your post describes what the psychiatrist did in his presentations.

Are you nuts? You can't distinguish between what an individual did and what the faith says?

Did you read several articles on what Islam says about such things right here on the top in the religion section?

Bigotry and hate are blind.

WmarkW : "Here is Islam" and then your post describes what the psychiatrist did in his presentations.

Are you nuts? You can't distinguish between what an individual did and what the faith says?

Did you read several articles on what Islam says about such things right here on the top in the religion section?

Bigotry and hate are blind.

There's Islam, here, Eboo:

http://tinyurl.com/yk3ups9

From the UK Morning Telegraph:
"Major Nidal Malik Hasan, the gunman who killed 13 at America's Fort Hood military base, once gave a lecture to other doctors in which he said non-believers should be beheaded and have boiling oil poured down their throats. He also told colleagues at America's top military hospital that non-Muslims were infidels condemned to hell who should be set on fire. The outburst came during an hour-long talk Hasan, an Army psychiatrist, gave on the Koran in front of dozens of other doctors at Walter Reed Army Medical Centre in Washington DC, where he worked for six years before arriving at Fort Hood in July.

Colleagues had expected a discussion on a medical issue but were instead given an extremist interpretation of the Koran, which Hasan appeared to believe."

Yasser,

So you've been to Karachi~! Thats cool! did you like the city? I dont think there are many attractions for the tourists here. I bet you liked the food though??
-------------
The food? Loved it. Gained weight. I have friends who live in the city, so I stay with them. Islamabad has always been my home "port."

Yasser,

You spent three days in Dhaka? Is that it? Perhaps that explains the differences in what we've seen, although Dhaka is far from violence free. Here is an excellent web site, sent to me by a Bangladeshi:

http://www.nationmaster.com/country/bg-bangladesh/cri-crime

Also, "Dalit" is the generic term used for "sweepers." Quran prohibits cast of course; however, you are the first Muslim I've encountered who has said there are no Dalit in Pakistan. The problem is systemic. Can they get out of the horror? Some have, but it is very difficult.

You have not mentioned the Human Rights Watch link or the other link I provided, covering Bangladesh and Pakistan, respectively.

You are Pashtun? Ah, that may explain why we get on (at least to some extent). One of my former students is Pashtun. He now works for the civil service in Pakistan.
--------------
As for the Palestinian Israeli conflict, I've said all I can. Also, it appears you have not been to the region. That places serious limitations on any conversation we might have. But, again, I believe there is far more hope for Kasmir, despite what Pakistan has done there.

Kasmir, Pakistan, and Bangladesh are my preferred topics. We have a lot of Pakistani, Bengladeshi, and Indian immigrants. Makes sense to discuss the nations from which they come, I think.

Oh and on Bangladesh, school kids carrying guns?? Thats news to me. The Bengalis seemed very maleable people to me. I dont think violence is as prevalent over there as it is here. There aren't any Pashtun's like me there :o). Well I actually had shock when I reached Dhaka. I was hoping it would be one big slum, but what I found wasn't much different from Karachi. I have mostly good memories from there. Loved the Pineapples~!

Farnaz,

We dont have dalits in Pakistan~! Most Pakistanis dont even know what a dalit is. Im all for the Christians getting a better deal and I admit their situation is not ideal. But as you yourself have pointed Pakistan is going through a tough phase (Frankly I dont even remember when we were NOT going through a tough phase~!), so the Government is mostly focused on saving its own skin.

Well you're right Israel/Palestine issue is the one I feel strongly about. But its 2 in the morning here and I'll go to sleep after this post. Maybe tommorow, if this blog is still open ill express my views on this issue.

So you've been to Karachi~! Thats cool! did you like the city? I dont think there are many attractions for the tourists here. I bet you liked the food though??

Yasser,

Lets see if he was indeed a terrorist or just a sick human being.
-------------------
Either way, hysteria is the greatest enemy here. The last thing we need are folks who might provoke it.

Hi Yasser,

The post on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict should have been addressed to you. Also, I've posted two other links on the Dalit, one from Human Rights Watch.

"Yea well looks like im getting plenty of attention~! But its all good. Mary Cunningham speaks respectfully to me. And i'll continue to respond in kind to her. Im nobody to prejudge anyone. Me myself being pretty imperfect."

Far, far be it from me to suggest to you or to anyone else whom they should blog with. I do resent being slandered by her; however, I understand that her obsession with me suggests that she has nothing else with which to occupy her time.
--------------------------------------
The Dalit problem is systemic. It requires intervention. There is no other way for it to be brought under control. It isn't a matter of what the government does, but of what it has not done. Of course, Pakistan has a lot of problems right now.

I've been to your city! May have passed you on the street!

Farnaz

They dont have gun culture as it is prevalent in Pakistan where weapons are mas produced in the tribal areas and where everyone carries a gun. And finally they dont occupy a strategic position that Pakistan does so they are spared a lot of western influence which can be only good.
--------------
Where are you getting this from? Three days in Bangaladesh?

Children go to school WITH GUNS. They are a high priority.

India's role in Bangaladesh's suffering cannot be ignored.
----------------------
RE: Palestinian-Israeli conflict.

Again, Abbas cannot prevent Hamas from firing on his troops. There is no one to negotiate with. Neither the Palestinians nor the Israelis have the will to peace or believe that it can be maintained.

Hamas will not recognize Israel, and even if it did, the recognition would be as meaningless as Arafat's. The Israeli people, as I posted before, believe they were horribly mislead. They actually voted in Netanyahu over the enormously popular Livni.

This very left-leaning country has swung to the right. After the attacks on Sharon on the Temple Mount/Dome of the Rock and the ensuing intifada, hope ended.

The left could not make their voices hear, felt betrayed by the Palestinians they'd trusted.

They're trying again, but their numbers are smaller, and they cannot win over the moderates. There is no sizable will among the Israelis.

In the meantime, Hamas is not only radicalizing but terrorizing. Thus far, it seems that they are not corrupt in the way Abbas' party is.

Had the Palestinians accepted the Clinton accords, not begun the intifada, there would have been a Palestine for several years now.

As I posted earlier, notwithstanding what Pakistan has done to Kasmir, and that is not good, notwithstanding recent events, hope for a settlement there is far stronger than hope for peace among the Israelis and Palistinians.

I've long thought the beginning of the end of the world would begin there.

I know this topic interests you, but for me it is agonizing, and I don't like to blog on it. I have Palestinian Christians and Muslim frinds as well as Israeli friends. We are friends in common, although the Palestinian Christain and Palestinian Muslims have a little difficulty with one another. Interesting.

The complexity of these relations are difficult. It is painful, horrible.

Two peoples, both despised, both extraordinary in many ways, destroying one another and themselves.

Farnaz, hi again~!

Yea well looks like im getting plenty of attention~! But its all good. Mary Cunningham speaks respectfully to me. And i'll continue to respond in kind to her. Im nobody to prejudge anyone. Me myself being pretty imperfect.

I saw the video link you sent. To be honest I was surprised that you would recommend such amateurish work. Its a bunch students with a handycam doing some non-serious commentary. I dont why you think their work has any credibility. FAST is a pretty mediocre university here anyway. If this was there final project or something, God help them.

I've never been to England :o), I already mentioned that. My query was in response to the discussion I was having with Mary where she said the 2nd generation Irish were somehow betteroff than Muslims. What did you have in your mind?

Well I just saw the news and it says Hassan is out of his comma and is talking now. It'll be pretty interesting to hear what he says with all this home grown terror hype going around news channels these days. Lets see if he was indeed a terrorist or just a sick human being.

I'll admit I dont have much knowledge what the current PM of Bangladesh is upto. I do know that she is closer to India, being the daughter of Mujeeb and with her in power its not good news for Pakistan. But apart from that I dont know much. Maybe if you can give me a hint ill try to respond.

Well the sweepers issue wont go away easily I guess. Im assuming you have pretty strong views on that. But really I've said what I said. It is not the Government policy in anyway to make Christians sweepers. I explained you they have been doing this work for generations. I went to a Catholic Missionary School. Its one of the best in the city. I've studied with Christian kids. They get special privileges in these schools. And they come from all backgrounds. But most of them run off from schools. They start drinking at a young age, form a music band or something. Plus the tend to make friends with Christians mostly. Im not kidding with regards to sweepers developing skill set. Most under priviledged people have these vocational training institutes run by NGO's that they can go to. I don't why I am unable to explain to you that no one is forcing them to be sweepers, neither is anyone forcing them to take up any other job. I dont know whats the issue here?

I am in Karachi, the biggest city of Pakistan and the most cosmopolitan as well. At school I had Christians, Hindus, Parsis and even Chinese classmates. So I prolly have more insight into their cultures as opposed to people from say Lahore or Islamabad.

Hi Yasser,

If you scroll down, you'll find two links I've posted on the "sweepers" (Dalit).

Below is a link to a Human Rights Watch article.

These links may answer your question about why their plight is considered a human rights issue.

I can't seem to locate all my bookmarks on the Dalit, but, again, there are numerous sites listed on the web.

There are also books and articles, of course.

Human Rights Watch link:

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2009/10/09/time-tear-down-wall-caste

Farnaz

You are a bad person, Farnaz1Mansouri1.

Posted by: Mary_Cunningham | November 9, 2009 2:55 PM
Report Offensive Comment
-------------
Still obsessing about me after lo these years?

You are an indefensible bigot, obsessed with one Jewish blogger, antisemitic, and terrified of Muslims. You are, in fact, an evil menace.

I tried with you, despite your dishonesty and bigotry, but failed, and, neither comment on your posts, unless their offensiveness makes it impossible for me to do otherwise, nor comment on you.

You, however, cannot refrain from dragging my name into your remarks, slandering me, particularly, when I'm not blogging. This sort of speech is condemned in all religions. It is, considered evil. It is addressed in the Psalms and elsewhere.

At times, I happen to log on when you are in the midst of one of your hate fests, as you have been today, and, like now, you disappear. HOw could you do otherwise? What defense is there for what you do?

I have no need to blog about you either in your absence or in your presence. Would you had the simple self-restraint to do likewise. Stereotype and OT away. Just leave us Js alone.

If you believe in sin, you surely know you have been guilty on this blog of several that are considered serious. You are far, far more sinning than you could ever be sinned against.

Still, if dishonest you has nothing better to focus on than me, go ahead. I suppose that in a way it's flattering.

Yasser,

Here is another link on the plight of the "sweepers." This one is for the sweepers of Bangaladesh. (The preceding one was for Pakisatan.)

There are endless links on the web. Honestly, I can't understand your equation of these suffering, caste-blighted souls with members of other professions.

Btw., I know not only the history of Bangaladesh but its current state of affairs. I asked what your thoughts were on the current PM's recent activities and would like to know. IMO, they do not bode well.

I've been to Pakistan several times, know people from different regions. My friends are hardly "overzealous." I cannot tell you how they are positioned on this forum, but I will say that one works for the Population Council.

As for the sweepers developing a "skill set," are you kidding?

I must tell you, I've never read such a proposal from Indian bloggers here regarding the Dalit. India is really trying, but the problem is overwhelming. More and more Indians are aware, however, of the injustices of the Dalit plight.

Your comments remind me of British attitudes toward the poor in centuries past, as if they were changes in their conditions were up to them.

At all events, can you say where in Pakistan you live? Maybe, that is where our communication on this topic is hitting a snag.

Here is the link I mentioned. If you'd like more, let me know, please.

http://www.dalits.nl/060424.html

Farnaz

Yasser:

Re: the attraction of 2nd gen Pakistani migrants to radical Islam in Britain

Interesting question. I have a few ideas but I'll think about them and respond tomorrow.

You are a bad person, Farnaz1Mansouri1.

Yasser,

Re: Cunningham's analysis of Hasan

This is very much to the point. There is no evidence, whatsoever, to label him as a terrorist. This is one frightened woman. Fear and ignorance combined are dangerous matters.

Everything thus far known suggests that he was part of no plot.

The very last thing we need anywhere now is hysteria.

Yasser,

"Im interested in listening what is your take regarding 2nd generation Pakistanis being drawn to radical Islam. Why do you think it is happening?"

Are you being coy? Have you been to England?

Yasser,

Here is video on the sweepers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2SN9poldRA

I had a whole series of bookmarks on them and will see what I can dig up. Also, I emailed two colleagues, one a UN official from Bangaladesh, the other a friend from New York, and two Pakistani nationals.

I thought they might be willing to chat here. I'm not holding out a great deal of hope....they are busy, but we'll see.

Hi Yasser,

I see you have been making some interesting partners!

I don't know if you're yet aware of the nature of "Mary Cunningham," a racist, regardless of how she may be coming off now. I wouldn't have mentioned it, but she has repeatedly dragged my name into posts.

Note the various accusations she makes against Halozel regarding the blogger's ethnicity. Palestinian, this time, comes first, owing to Hasan. That is unfortunate.

This blogger, on another thread, suggested that given the fact that Hasan was a disgruntled Palestinian, the US should have flagged him as a threat, in this way, avoiding a terrorist incident just as Britain had.

She is terrified of Muslims, hates Jews, accuses me insanely of hating Catholics, whom I have frequently defended, perhaps most notably during the dreadful Quinn "communion" offense--you may not have been blogging at that time.

As for Jews, she's unafraid, simply hates them.

None of this would have to take up an iota of space, except that she never fails to drag me into her "missives" whenever she appears; hence, I must waste time on this nonsense.

I'll post again later on the sweepers, etc.

.....sorry~! I meant George Galloway

Mary,

I dont see the reason why these radicalised youth would wanna vote for the party that launched two brutal wars that these people consider war on Islam. I frankly dont think they are part of the election process unless they have a chance to vote for George Halloway.

Well I never proposed the IRA analogy anyway~! I dont even think its a valid analogy. Its a completely different set of circumstances. There is no Muslim army so to say. No organization that calls for bombing. Im interested in listening what is your take regarding 2nd generation Pakistanis being drawn to radical Islam. Why do you think it is happening?

Athena,

What is interesting--at least in Britain--was that Irish migrants abandoned their 'Irishness' much more readily than their religion, which they clung to.

And it seems the same thing has occured with Pakistani and Bengladeshi migrants. They are no longer Pakistani nationals, but they are as firmly Muslim as ever, more firmly actually. The women in Britain who wear the hijab are mostly young women born here. A friend told me there are more headscarfs in London than in Lahore.

Yasser,

re: the children of Pakistani migrants. They're not disenfranchised, far from it. They vote Labour!

And let's not push the IRA analogy too far. (You don't want to get into Irish and Northern Irish history with me!) What I was trying to show was that almost *no* 2nd generation Irish migrants in Britain supported the IRA, whilst many 2nd generation Pakistani migrants are very much drawn to radical Islam (although not terrorism, I agree with you on that). In this they have probably been stupidly encouraged by a politically correct, cowardly Labour government.

Halozcel1/or whoever else you are,

Hussain bin Mansoor Al-Hallaj was an exception even amongst Sufi's most of whom were considered heretics by mainstream Islam. He is probably the most complex character one could come across if you read his poetry. He never actually said I am Allah he said "An-al-Haq" which translated to English mean I am the Truth. The people and the King of that time certainly thought as you did. But over a period of time when people began to understand his poetry they realised he was so much in love with Allah that everywhere he saw he saw Allah. He saw Allah in all the creations of Nature. Be it the rivers, the desert, the mountains and one day deep into his meditation he realised that if Allah is around everywhere he is probably inside him to. Thats when he chanted An-Al-Haq. Really its a deep spiritual matter. Most Sufi's who came after him did not consider that he was declaring himself to be Allah. Infact Rumi, the most well known Sufi poet considered Mansur his teacher.

With regards to Banu Quraizah what makes you think your opinion counts?? I have written in detail the actual chain of events that led to the fate Banu Quraizah met in my discussion with Farnaz. If you challenge them i'll be glad to prove you wrong. But my point in debating historical events in never scoring cheap brownie points. Im usually looking for mutual understanding. If you can convince me with your logic i'll be the first to admit it.

I think your last question is pretty stupid one which i'll prefer to pass~!

I think that Mary has a point. It's often the children of immigrants that wind up getting into trouble - whether they're Irish Catholics, Arab Moslems, or Salvadorans joining MS-13. I think it's because the parents struggled to make a better life for their kids, but the kids feel torn between the "old country" ways and the Western ways. So, they reject the West and turn to a romanticized version of what the "old country" was. When the last great wave of immigrants came to the U.S. in the early 1900's, their children didn't really have a chance to get this romanticed version of the Old Country - they were fighting WWI and WWII in it.

Unfortunately, I have to stand corrected in my earlier assertion that Nidal went postal. Recent news reports are saying that he was into radical Islam.

Mary,

I agree with most of your analysis~! The muslims youths of Britain certainly feel like they are an unwanted lot in the country they're born in. They cannot come back and settle in Pakistan. These angry youths are easy fodder for the prying eyes of hate preachers. They make these kids feel somehow importants. But lets be honest Mary, out of thousands of disenfranchised British Muslim youths we're talking of probably a dozen or so who have actually takenup terrorism to express their hatred for the society. Its in no way comparable to IRA. There is no recognized body in UK which is calling for places to be bombed over there.

With regards to Maj. Hasan, I think its a bit premature to label him a terrorist and not a deeply pained sick man. There was another article on On Faith by someone name Thistlewaite, who herself provided counselling to troubled housewives and said she had to quit her job after a while because it was getting to become unbearable. This guy was supposed to heal PTSD people. One of the things he was supposed to do was listen to the stories that these returning soldiers had to tell. And we all know that they wouldnt have been good stories. Imagine a soldier telling you how he opened fire on a car which didnt stop at the checkpost only to find out it was filled with women and children and they were taking a pregnant woman to hospital and they are all dead. Imagine listening these kind of stories day in and day out for years. In the Army you dont have the choice of quitting your job at your own will. On the top of that he may have been subjected to racist jokes. We dont know the whole story but why only concentrate on him being a terrorist. I remember there was another shooting in Virginia Tech by a Korean student who like hasan was a loner and took down as many of his co students as hasan did, probably a girl as well who he had liked. Im hoping Hasan comes back from comma. I for one would really like to hear his story.

PS And I never posted to anyone named Jamil. What religion are you, Hellish-o-zell? Hindu nationalist? German Protestant evangelical? Jewish? Or just generally offensive? And illiterate.(Is there such a religion?)

You are an odd fellow, Halozel and as offensive as Farnaz1Mansouri1 (maybe you are her) and as false.

I was not posting a year ago, but earlier. I did post to Jihadist, a Muslim from Malaya. I am not an IRA supporter and never have been, I lived in London throughout the IRA bombings.If you could read you might see that the Catholic tradition in England since, well, 1604 renounced violence. Wasn't really effective, was it?

The difference between Mary Tudor and Elizabeth was that Mary was courageous and believed in her religion. Elizabeth believed only in power and switched back and forth, as whichever was more favourable to her. Elizabeth also started her reign by killing Catholics whilst Mary began by offering amnesty. Elizabeth had a lot more time to persecute Catholics, that's what you like about her, isn't it?

This is all from me to you. I very much dislike you and all you stand for, and although
my religion tells me someone like you is the person I should forgive, you'll forgive me if I postpone it for a while.

Hizb ut Tahrir was founded by MI5 such as Al Jazeera Television.

Dear Mary Cunningham,
Expat(riate).

Nearly one year ago,you were writing *Jamil,you have wonderful(Alice in Wonderland)/perfect religion(islam)*,but,nowadays you are posting *migrants and islam together make horrible action etc.*
What changed since one year ?
You talk about nailing bomb nightclub.Dont worry,they will detonate A-bomb or Bioligical Weapon at Trafalgar Square within 10 or 15 years.

Dear IRA supporter,
Mary Tudor,Blood,Tears and Poverty.
Elizabeth I,Civilization,Happiness and Prosperity.
They were sisters.What was the Difference between them ?

Yasser/asizk,

You are making Theological and Historical mistakes.

-Mansoor Hallaj had said *I am Allah*(?)Was he islamic saint ? (it seems to me,Saint is Idiosyncraticlly christian title/term,it ought to not used for muslims)
-Banu Qurayza tribe hadnt betrayed to muslims.This assertion is said by muslim Demagogues such as *Aisha was not 8 year-old,but 18 year-old*
-In your post to Bahai women Farnaz(she is doing a mistake,Real Jewishman/woman never announce his/her belief as so),you are saying *I respect All Religions*
Is there another religion except islam ?

Yasser,

Well, it’s not so hard understanding what happened with British born Islamists and those who turned to terror.

I did some post graduate research on assimilation of second generation migrants (the children of immigrants). Problems of identity are highest with this group. They don’t know *what* or who they are—in my children’s case, for example: were they British, English, Irish, Scots? Born here, of course, with British nationality, but their mother is Irish. They look the same as *native’ English whatever that should look like, but you can’t tell English from Irish looks—not really—and in any case their father is a Scot. They speak with English accents. What they all clung to was their religious identity as Catholics ,distinct from the indigenous Anglican community, and this is also what the children of Muslim immigrants did and do. And what Major Hasan—another second generation migrant with identity problems—did.

My research concerned Irish migrants to Britain during the interwar period, and, like my own children, it showed clearly how reluctant Irish migrants were to abandon their religious identity as Catholics. However, the Catholic Church in England (and Ireland too for that matter) has a very strong pacifist tradition...(You want martyrs? There’s *nothing*--and I mean *nothing*-- like an Irish martyr and English Catholics were no slouch in the martyr department either. ) IMHO this nonviolent tradition is probably the biggest reason that second generation Irish migrants on the mainland did not cooperate with the IRA and their bombing campaigns during the Troubles.

Regarding the radical preachers, you forget we have a very strong "human rights" lawyering lobby--Cherie Blair was one such lawyer--and so long as these preachers don't incite to riot and violence (in the case at Westminster Cathedral the radicals were clearly intimidating the free exercise of religious worship)they are not breaking the law. In any case, these radicals have been well exposed and have been quiet lately, oh, since the 2007 and the failed nailbombing plot. The Labour Party, who failed to inhibit these men, is also due to lose power come spring and the Conservatives promise to be much tougher.

Dear Mary Cunningham,

Thank you for your kind words~! I havent been lucky enough to visit UK as yet but I do know a bit abou what you're talking about. I once saw a documentary regarding extremism in young British Muslims. I have to say I was horrified to hear the views of those people in it. To be honest I was also angry at the UK government. How can they let people like Anjum Chaudhry and Abu Qatada preach hatred and ask Pakistan to crack down on extremists here. I saw those "Behead those who insult Islam" signs on TV and they are as repulsive to us as they are to you. I have no idea what kind of leadership they follow. When the British Government tried to complain that 3 of the bombers were 2nd or 3rd generation Pakistanis our government rightfully told them to take care of their own babies. These people were born, bred and educated in Britain. They probably visited Pakistan just once or twice in their lifetime, if they were radicalized that radicalization happened back in UK not in Pakistan. I remember it was during the same time a boxer of Pakistani origin won the only gold medal in olympic boxing for England and he was being hailed as the next best thing and future of british boxing. So what I am saying is you cant keep the gold medalist boxer for yourself and handover those bombers to us. They are both your babies. And if you do not crack down on the extremists over there its not Pakistan's problem. I remember this guy who killed Daniel Pearl and gave a bad name to Pakistan round the world too was a British born, LSE Graduate. As long as you allow Anjum Chaudhry's and Hizbul Tahrir Fanatics (Hizbul Tahrir btw is banned in Pakistan) to preach with impunity you will see disenfranchised youths being plucked out of their marginalised environs. And keep in mind these preachers of hatred have plenty of ammunition in hand, with UK involved in 2 brutal wars responsible for the death of more than a million muslims and absolute destruction of 2 countries. So they can easily brainwash these kids by telling them stories of brutality of western soldiers. There's a small cottage industry of muslim extremists throughout Europe. The make brilliant propaganda movies, I mean those that can really boil you blood. Ive seen some of those and believe me they can easily affect the minds of an ignorant muslim youth.

So yea......its time to act now. You dont have to start a witchhunt. Most of the radicals of UK are well known. You have to nab them as soon as you can. Throw out that radical Nazir Ahmed who you have made a member of House of Lords. It seems to me he spends more time in Pakistan giving speeches in support of Taliban and exhorting the Pakistan govrment sitting beside Jamat-e-Islaimi radicals.

Well I guess you've kinda stuck a raw nerve with me. Its an issue I feel passionately about. I would love to hear more from you~!

Yasser~!

Dear Yasser Yousufi,

I have noted your posts and they are eloquent and sincere. You remind me of my Muslim friends here in London. As well, I have ‘met’ Muslims on the web and unlike, say Farnaz1Mansouri1 who *hates* Catholics, really hates them, (and me, because I am one, she has called me every insult she can find, running the gamut of bigot to zealot and back again, with a detour for Satanic and racist) my Muslim web ‘acquaintances’ have been equally sincere and courteous.

Anyway, a story: In September, 2006 after the 2005 tube bombings and the 2006 airline plot ( I was at the airport when they grounded everything, Yasser. Chaos! Absolute chaos!) I went to Mass (the anniversary of my father’s death) at Westminster Cathedral. Stupid thing to do: Pope Benedict had quoted a Greek Orthodox prelate and, essentially, said Islam was violent and the Muslims were furious. There were riots worldwide and also in London. The London police—as craven and politically correct a bunch of ninnies as ever existed—had neglected to protect Catholic churches, especially the Cathedral, and didn’t keep the Muslim protesters a safe distance away. We walked out of that sacred space into a howling mob—screaming at us and holding placards saying: “Cut off his [the Pope’s] head” and other suchlike slogans. If the press hadn’t been there, and the police—eventually—hadn’t acted to push them away from Catholic worshippers, I believe the mob would have rioted, assaulted the church goers, and sacked the Cathedral.

So I guess you could say I have met, personally met, Muslim extremists.

Or to rephrase: the Muslims I have personally met have been good people, but they seem somehow unable to contain the mob. If we return to my IRA example, it was only after sentiment in the Republic of Ireland (the independent state to the south) turned unequivocally *against* the IRA, that their tactics, never hugely ferocious, ameliorated.

This is not my debate really, is it? So I won’t hang around overmuch, but I did want to contact you.

Yours sincerely,
MC

Dr Patel:

You say Maj. Hasan acted alone and, hence, his act was not typical of Muslims. He was not typical of all Muslims, granted, but his was a typical Muslim act, or an act typical of Islamic terror.

First: quick testimony. I am an Irish expat, long term resident of London. I was here during the IRA bombings. I was in London when Muslims hijacked a plane and murdered 3,000 civilians at the World Trade Centre. We knew that our turn would follow. But where would it come from and how would it come?

It would come from within: from our own community of Muslims. Three sons of Pakistani migrants (in demographic speak, second generation Britons) plus one 2nd generation African Caribbean convert descended into the tube (subway) and detonated themselves plus 52 others, bringing the city to a standstill and terror to its inhabitants. The next year an assortment of immigrants and the children of Pakistani immigrants attempted to blow up 10 airplanes en route to the US. The following year Muslim Indian migrants attempt to nail bomb two London nightclubs.

The first two terrorist acts (or attempted acts) had ‘training’ in Pakistan; the last—the doctors—were acting ‘alone’ whatever that means. As was Dr. Hasan. However, the context in which they acted was similar: they—all of them—believed their host country was at war with their co-religionists and their main loyalty was to their fellow Muslims.

Now, as I see it, the differences between Islamist and the IRA terror are:

• the warnings: the IRA always phoned in warnings with enough time to evacuate the targeted transport. In contrast, Islamists favoured surprise attacks, and the more mayhem the better. Nail bombing a nightclub, Dr Patel—I ask you, how barbaric is that?

• The targets: IRA sought to destroy property , Islamists target civilians.

• the terrorists’ country of origin: IRA terrorists came from outside the British mainland, from Northern Ireland. Irish who lived in Scotland, England, and Wales were not involved in the terror. Islamists, in contrasts, were inhabitants—can’t really call them citizens, can we?—of the country they brutalized.

So you see Dr. Hasan fits the profile of British Islamists terrorists. That is the context in which he acted. He might have acted alone, but his divided loyalties between his host country and his religion were similar to Muslim terrorists in Britain. He is thus not a special case. .

You seem to be a good man, but you need to face up to the situation. You are in denial if you continue to assert Maj. Hasan was insane. He was as sane as the Indian Muslims, doctors all who attempted to wreck the most painful of injuries on their targets.

Yours sincerely,
MC.

Daniel12, just a simple question~! There are 10,000 muslims in the US army. Many of them have given the ultimate sacrifice, others have served with honor as well returning with medals for their bravery. What do your muslim hating priests and tele evangelist say about them? What part of Islam is their motivation to serve america? And dont you ever go around educated people telling them the separation of state and church crap in america. George Bush said he was ordered by God to attack Iraq and kill millions in his dream~!

I have difficulty accepting when the majority of Muslims--the moderates--say the terrorists are not real Muslims and that they, the majority Muslims, are the real Muslims and should not experience problems such as profiling at airports, etc. The majority Muslims are quick to point out that the terrorists are relatively few in Islamic society but that just puts the majority Muslims in a more difficult position, because if the terrorists are so few, and the majority of Muslims are moderate, then why are there terrorists at all? Should not the moderate Muslims have overwhelmed and imprisoned the terroristic Muslims by now? In a Western society the more violent people are clearly fewer, clearly a minority. And the majority in Western society does not tolerate violence from such people at all. In Islamic society, however, we have constant cries from the majority of Muslims that they should not be confused with the terrorists, but the moderate Muslims do nothing, do not police their society with regard to such people. This just makes us wonder if there are really moderate Muslims at all. Certainly the view of Patel that societies should become more diverse--filled with various religions, races, ethnic groups,--multiculturality in a word--is a disastrous view. Say for example one dislikes the Evangelical Christians in American society. Adding to such people various religions, etc. does not result in diversity, multiculturality, but conflict. The only solution is for religions to be dismissed and for races to mix and for people to give up their ethnic group identity. Certainly this is what has made America strong. For example, I am of French, Austrian, English, Irish and Dutch descent. But do I identify with any of those countries? No. And although I am Catholic do I stress such? No. As for race, the faster the race mixing the better. This is what it means to be American. Patel does not understand that at all.

Unfortunately this just brings more and more forward the question of whether Muslims--really anyone who takes religion in a fundamentalist manner--are compatible with the separation of church and state that is modern Western democracy. I mean after all, here we have a person who entered the U.S. military, but then when it became time to test just how much this person would be loyal to the U.S. he turned against the military, wanted out. Then although he was supposedly against violence (saying he was against the war) he had no problem killing Americans. A conflict was created in him whether he would be a moderate Muslim and on the side of democracy and separation of church and state or an Islamic fundamentalist and he chose Islamic fundamentalism. What makes it all the more stark is that he witnessed every day the evidence of battle inflicted on U.S. soldiers by Islamic extremists and still he had no problem killing U.S. soldiers. This just increases the problem between the West and Islam.

Farnaz,

I possibly cannot see how someone working as a sweeper can be a human rights issue. I guess most people working in Newyork would either be blacks or hispanics. It all depends upon the skill set you develop throughout your life. If those people do not get educated, themselves aren't willing to change their destinies, you cannot expect them to be hired as Doctors, Lawyers, CEO's etc by the government. In a perfect world one would wish no one has to clean sewers and everyone lives happily but that doesn't look likely the case in the distant future and till then someone will have to do the work. But if you think that religion or government is somehow responsible for that or whether it is binding, I think your over zealous Pakistani friends are misguiding you. Same goes probably for the Christians of Bangladesh. I do not like criticizing religions, but hinduism did have a caste system. These dark skinned christians are infact the aborigines of India. When Aryans from the North conquered India, they introduced a religion based on caste system to keep the locals under control and made them all untouchables responsible for doing the cleaning jobs, skinning dead animals etc. over thousands of years, its become their life style. Some of them have broken the shackles, but many still stick to thier old lifestyle. Maybe the UNICEF people can build an industry here that hires only christians. I dont think the government would have any objection to that.

You say you see no hope for the resolution of the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians. I am very much interested in knowing your perspective regarding the reason for it. What is it that the Palestinians must do that they havent already done so that they can live with honor and dignity alongside the state of Israel?

There is abject poverty in Bangladesh, there's no denying that. Very little development took place in the areas that comprised Bangladesh during the muslim rule of India and even during the British. It was on the outskirts of the vast Indian empire. Even when it was part of Pakistan, they continued to be neglected by the powerbase in Islamabad, thats one of the reasons they separated. So they had to begin from the scratch when they got liberated from us. But they have a lot of things going their way that bedevil Pakistan. For one the Bangladeshis are mostly one people, Bengalis, unlike Pakistan. They ae certainly a more secular society with a hindu Rabindarnath Tagore being their National Hero. So religous extremism wouldn't seep through as easily as it did in Pakistan. With respect to violence, these people fight with sticks and knives. They dont have gun culture as it is prevalent in Pakistan where weapons are mas produced in the tribal areas and where everyone carries a gun. And finally they dont occupy a strategic position that Pakistan does so they are spared a lot of western influence which can be only good.

With regards to the round 2, Cant wait for it to begin :0) J/K

Coloradodog:

Farnaz, your hatred of me is not harming me at all but is consuming you.
-----------
I don't hate you.

Farnaz, your hatred of me is not harming me at all but is consuming you.

Yassser,

Re: Bangaladesh

I, too, have been to Bangaladesh, travelled extensively. It is a horror, unimaginable. If you've been following the activities of the new prime minister, you know that massive violence is imminent. I understand her feelings, but this cycle once begun will never end.

By the time food, which is supposed to go to the poor, arrives in Bangaladesh, it is inedible. Supposed to be distributed free, it is sold. People eat it anyway, get sick. Some die.

To preserve fish, chemical sprays are used that also cause illness. There is no modern refrigeration.

The population is far, far from under control. People are squatting across the Indian border, and the Indian border patrol are not treating them well.

Excesses of Bangaladeshi grain are bought up and stored by Indian merchants, bought back in times of shortages, and sold at exorbitant prices.

As is the case with all third-world countries, a few wealthy families have a stranglehold on the nation.

God help the Bangaladeshi people. They have a tremendous commitment to learning and literacy, yes. But they are dying of hunger, dying from violence, dying. And then there ae the Bangaladeshi Christian sweepers.

Yasser,

You are right about child prostitution. It is a blight on humanity and is all over the world.

If only everyone could spend one day in Bangaladesh. Just one day. Human misery so intense it is almost unbearable to see. It is unbearable. The violence is unimaginable. Parents must arm their children to send them to school.

I work a bit with UNICEF. I sometimes ask myself what the point is.

Yasser,

There are Christians who are not sweepers, in Pakistan. However, being a Christian in Pakistan is unenviable, I assure you.

The number of Christian sweepers is often given at over one million. HOwever, my Pakistani friends, all of whom are in a position to know given their professions, tell me the number is much higher. There are also many Hindu sweepers. This is a human rights issue as you know.

The situation in Bangaladesh is worse.

As matters stand, I see no hope whatsoever for the Israelis and Palestinians. I believe this conflict has less hope of ending than Kasmir. It will not end. There is no point in resuming "negotiations." Abbas cannot even defend his troops from Hamas attacks. The will for peace no longer exists on either side. It's over. Done.

The only possibility for world peace resides in the severing of nation state from religion. That, however, would be only a beginning. Hindus and Muslims are killing each other in the streets. Muslims are second-class citizens in India, although some of them have done very well. What motivated the Mumbai massacre? We know.

Religion itself must disappear. Withdrawing it from the public realm, secularism will not provide the answer.

FarnazMansouri,

The message of all Sufi saints is essentially the same. Be it Rumi, Hazrat Inayat, Bhullay Shah, Mansoor Hallaj etc, when you reach a certain level of spirituality the mysteries of the world that maybe mysteries for lesser mortals like us, are revealed unto them~!

Girl prostitution racquets are active all over the world. Its big buisness in Europe as well as US. Why stick to Bangladesh. India is probably even worse. Its despicable~! But Bangladesh is one of the few countries I've visited and I can say its moving forward in the right direction. Atleast thats the impression I got in the 3 days I stayed there. They've got a better literacy rate than Pakistan and have brought down their population growth rate significantly. They also have other development indicators going in the right direction. But yea poverty is a problem. So many people to feed with so little resources~! I guess it would wrong to hold their society with the same standards of those of yours in New York.

Christians as a minority are a bit sidelined in Pakistan. But believe me they belong in all the stratas of the society and not just "cleaning sewers". Thats an over generalisation~! Christians have reserved seats in the Parliament, quota in government jobs wrt to their population and never ever would you hear them being vilified like muslims get vilified in American and European Media. Those Christians who get educated can get into jobs they want. All the Christians who become sweepers used to be low caste hindus before they were converted to Christianity by the missionaries when the British came. Most of them never changed their life styles. So yea a majority of sweepers here are Christians, but its not by design. They can change their destiny if they want. Or maybe their rich co-religionists in Europe and America can also help them.

So what do you think about Israel? should it also shed its religous identity? give equal opportunity to Palestinians and become a secular country?

YasserYousoufi,

My previous post was meant for you.

Im glad that we've come to respect each others opinions. I tend to get carried away sometimes, but I usually have good manners. Im sad at some of the things I wrote. But one learns something new everyday and its all good as long as we learn our lessons~!
-------------
I feel much the same! This doesn't mean there won't be round 2, of course. :0. A friend of mine, a Muslim, blogs with a Catholic, whom he greets, not according to her moniker, but with his own salutation:
"Educated Enemy!"

Salaam!

He "is not a true Muslim":

Yes he is and i'm sick of hearing this garbage.

U cant disown someone when they flip out. Theres plenty of horrors in the Koran, bible etc that give loons justification for sick acts.

Amazing that millions of people think they can talk to god yet he tells some people some things and others other things. Are they actually talking to him or just making it up in their twisted little heads?

The latter clearly....or god is a bald faced liar.

Right wing, and zionist zealots(who burned gaza children with white phospherous, check goldstone report about war crimes committed by israel in gaza, and was condemed in the
UN by over 150 countries) always argue in two points, why do muslims always commit act of violance?, but an act like the one at hand should never be attributed to the faith, imagine for a second that the perpetrator was a born again christian, who held the cross in one hand, and was shooting was the other. I can bet you no one will ever blame the christian faith, and no one will dare to ask the question what verse in that bible lead him to do such a heinous act. They would say that he was a disturbed man, who ran away from home, and quit taking his medication, or any other bizarre reason, even though in the bible there are verses like
"They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman." 2 Chro15:12-13
The second argument is a statement like "not every muslim is a terrorist, but every terrorist is a muslim.", but they rely on the ignorance of most audience who rarely read, thx to
john&kait. According to the CIA, the largest incidents of suicide bombings are commited by a group called the tigers of tamil in srilanka(not muslims), thx to google that info can be verified while watching GlenBeck.

Mr Patel, Germans don't say that Hitler, Himmler and Gestapo were not German. Similarly Nidal Hasan was Muslim. So are the Saudis who don't let woman drive a car, and the Taliban, and the Chechnya rebels that killed 350 russian students.
People like you are a problem.

Farnaz, Thank you~! I do believe that all religions including even Hinduism, Buddhism etc are inter connected and come from the same concept of the God, YHWEH, Allah~! This is the message of all the sufi's. This is the little game God plays with us. If he wanted he would have revealed the truth. But he wants us to exercise our minds, look at the signs, choose the best path and then be answerable for our actions~!

Im glad that we've come to respect each others opinions. I tend to get carried away sometimes, but I usually have good manners. Im sad at some of the things I wrote. But one learns something new everyday and its all good as long as we learn our lessons~!

Shalom~!

Hasan followed Qur'an 9:111, which says:

“Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden (Paradise) will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain”

Also:
5:51 O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

And:
Quran 9.29 “Fight those who believe not
in Allah nor the Last Day…”

Eboo Patel is Lying (Taqiyya and Kitman): http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/011-taqiyya.htm

yasseryousufi

One person who I have been most influenced by is Hazrat Inayat Khan, who incidently used to live in USA.

He often cites Rumi in his works. Reading Rumi is fundamental. On camel racing, two things: the UAE signed an international agreement to ban the use of little boy jockeys. The UAE is not the problem. This horror goes on throughout the Middle East. Efforts are being made, however, in Egypt, to prevent the selling of little boys from poor families, and/or their kidnapping.

In many other countries, e.g., Pakistan and Bangaladesh, nothing is being done. Nothing is being done either to rescue the 200,000 little girl prostitutes in Bnagaladesh.

Some young Pakistani students are desperately trying to stop the horrors visited on the Christians. They haven't gotten far, but they aren't giving up.

Religions, all religions, are ideological. They are wedded to nation states and used by the wealthy and powerful to exploit the masses and, in some cases, for imperialist ends.

If religion could be separated from nation states, separated entirely, I would be more optimistic. HOwever, I see little possibility of that happening.

in the end hasan used religion as an excuse to kill...
this is not the first time...
nor will it be the last...
sad...

Yasser,

Should have written: Maimonides is good for the MIND.

(Cannot get used to wearing glasses)

When people hate about religion they end up harming their own religious framework.

Yasser,

I'll admit I havent read Rumi, but I am a follower of the Sufi path.
---------------------
Thank you for your post and the explanation. Still, if you wish to believe in the value of religion, you must read Rumi. He saw connections among Islam, Judaism, and Christianity.

He is AMAZING to read, beautiful, moral, spiritual. Not difficult.

Maimonides is good for the web.
-------------------
Our respective biases on the Banu Qurayza result, I suspect, from how we are positioned, I agree.

Farnaz

Of course he was a moslem, Patel. Don't be an imbecile trying to twist facts. It's not unusual to see moslems kill each other like rabid dogs; it happens every day in the moslem cesspools of Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan. Don't you read the papers or watch the news?

This is what is wrong with Muslims in America. Instead of looking at their religion or fellow Muslims with a critical eye, they just dismiss everyone who does something bad as 'not muslim', as if they can determine that.

It's sad, it's pathetic, and it's counterproductive.

Mr. Patel has ignored the fact that neither he nor anyone else is endowed with the authority to claim who is a Muslim and who is not. The perpetrator of this crime certainly felt he was a Muslim and was part of a Muslim community that was not a figment of his imagination. Therefore Mr. Patel's worries about how Muslims will be perceived and his efforts to exclude the unseemley elements from the Muslim identity appear miguided and futile. Instead of addressing us, the public at large, perhaps he should focus his efforts more on Muslim introspection and reform, starting with a cold-hard look at the facts, which indicate that many Muslims are unable to deal constructively with the failures of their perceived Islamic civilization. We must understand why Islam somehow engenders a humiliation that all too often leads to violence as the only available and justifiable escape in the eyes of terrorists.

Furthermore, the reaction described by Mr. Patel, primariy a concern for how Muslims will be viewed in light of this tragic incident, reflects a deep insecurity that appears linked to a lack of empathy and consideration on their part. Again this could be another face of engrained victimhood, a narrative that is only self-destructive and promotes radical behavior. I respectfully submit that the Islamic world is deeply in need of a reformation into a modern conception of identity, gender roles, citizenship, and individual liberty, along with freedom of thought and religion.

FarnazMansouri,

OK I stand corrected~! I dont have to go to the website. I know the Sheikhs like to seek pleasures from these kinds of inhumane indulgences. With regards to UAE I know that people from the Royal family themselves were involved in this, so who're you gonna complain to. But if the premise of this ugly incident is that its the religion thats somehow responsible for every act that the follower of the religion performs then Im sorry I do not accept that conclusion.

Firstly I believe that to think that all religions can be eliminated is a utopic imagination. I also consider myself more of a liberal than a Radical/Conservative believe it or not (Although a Sufi I certainly am not~!), but I also have respect for all religions of the world since the genesis of all religions is essentialy based upon goodness. If you think about it before there were any laws and regulations it was the word of God and Religion that guided mankind, and most of the modern laws also emanate from religous texts. So again there is no way you can totally detach yourself from religion. And besides the societies that have rooted out religion aren't exactly havens of peace and serenity~! Stalin killed thousands without a shred of remorse or grief. The Chinese hang hundreds of people to death every year for petty crimes. So there isnt any thing such as a perfect model. This is how God wanted this world to be. Its all a chain of interconnected events and everything happens for a reason. Well thats just what I believe. But I can also understand where you're coming from. Religions have also caused a lot of death and destruction but whether thats a fallacy of religions or us humans is debateable. Purging socities from religion can be compared to purging the societies from all rules and regulations and let free will decide all our actions and reactions. I fail to see how that will not result in bringing out another set of even graver problems.

With regards to me being a sufi, I certainly am not one. Its a stature I am both incapable and unworthy of. I think you confuse it with my surname. Yousufi part of my name indicates the tribe (Yousufzai) that I belong to, just like Mansouri in your case I guess. I'll admit I havent read Rumi, but I am a follower of the Sufi path. One person who I have been most influenced by is Hazrat Inayat Khan, who incidently used to live in USA. For someone following the Sufi path it is always recommended not to follow too many teachers.

We can agree to disagree on Banu Quraizah people. We'll both look at the incident from our own vantage points with a touch of bias I guess.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duct, then it obviously is a duck.

What a strange body of comments on this thread. Tried to read them from end to beginning, and beginning to end and alas, there was the same lack of meaning all the way through.

It's pretty obvious that we have a nutcase psychiatrist on our hands. At the same time he could very well have been directed to undertake this violent action by a third-party who has not yet been identified ~ but who will be identified.

After all, it's usually the case that Moslem terrorists seek out mentally ill people, the retarded, and those faced with death penalties anyway to carry the personal suicide bombs to areas where they can kill the innocent.

Easy to believe Hasan was told to do this to become a martyr so he could die and go to Heaven with whatever passes for "glory" in Islam.

Now, was Hasan still a Moslem when he attacked and murdered those people?

The answer is "Of Course" ~ Fur Shur he wasn't a Methodist, a Hindu, a Sikh, a...... you name it. At this period of time in history when this sort of thing happens you pretty well know what the killer's religious preferences are.

Jus' the way it is. I don't think any of us expect anything better out of these guys until they've turned to shooting each other up.

All right.

If it's all right to talk about Muslims
in this way, in wApO and elsewhere,

it's all right to talk about Jews, which most of the nation have refrained from doing mostly because of PC, not because of liking...

Let's start with Wall Street tomorrow.

Patel says "But a Muslim did not do this." Wrong. Face the facts, a Muslim did it.

So Maj. Hasan didn't want to kill fellow Muslims? Well there were Irish Catholics on both sides of our American Civil War. In World Wars Catholics have fought Catholics, Protetants Protestant, and Jews have fought Jews. Why are Muslims not the same? Anyway, Muslims have enjoyed killing other Muslims right from the beginning, just ask a Shiite about the Sunnis.

Not a real Muslim maybe the case, but neither are al Qaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah, Taliban, and other radical terrorist groups!

Muslims and the Muslim nations must then step up and purge these frauds from society! Gaza must throw out Hamas, Iranians must throw out the mullahs, Pakistan the Taliban, and on and on! Libya must throw out Kadhafi, and the African Nations must purge the radicals as well - Somalia, Nigeria, Kenya, and Sudan.

It is past time that the Muslims take care of business!!

Catholic Whistiling, ColoradoDog, is a good place to start. He is an anti-Jewish racist, and he hates Muslims, too. He loathes them, considers them less than dirt.

Beware, lest you end up like him. And look at him, Dog. Have you seen anything uglier?

An ugly Christian/American. Do you want to be that?

You ugly bastards censoring this post

should allow something besides ugly Jews

screaming against anything Muslim.

But you are what you are, aren't you.

And you'll read about it.

Yasseryousufi,

You are wrong about camel races, which take place throughout the Middle East, not merely in the UAE, which has signed off on them. Go to the UNICEF web site. Again, they take place all over the Middle East. I disagree with you about Banu Qurayza, as you will have gathered from my post.

You will not agree with me on this; however, I believe that a good place to start in the quest for world peace would be the elimination of religion.

Religion has played a part in the Iraq/Afghanistan genocide, and, not a very subtle part, at that. Wedded to nation states and power, it imperils all of us. Eliminating it, or at lest safeguarding the rights of those of us who wish to be free FROM it would be a step in the right direction.

It would not end greed. Look at Bangaladesh.
Look at the suffering, hard for most of us to imagine. Look at British Petroleum, the other oil companies. They will not relent until forced. BP has gotten away with murder on United States soil. That is what "geopolitics" is.

That said, the elimination of religion, the ability to be free FROM it, purging our legislatures of it, would eliminate one smokescreen with which we could all live without.

Farnaz

PS. I know you don't like "peacemaking" gestures, so let me assure you, this is not one. I cannot see how you can be a "Sufi" without reading Rumi. Maimonides is good for the mind.

Maybe when Hasan joined the army,

he didn't know America would spend the next decade killing only Muslims

on phony bases such as WMDs, and at the behest and constant screaming of the Israelis.

Maybe he thought he'd be defending American, not helping slaughter his own.

As another blogger pointed out, Eboo is using the "no true Scotsman fallacly."

From Wikipedia: "No true Scotsman is a logical fallacy where the meaning of a term is ad hoc redefined to make a desired assertion about it true. It is a type of self-sealing argument."

This false argument has, throughout the centuries, been more typically used by the Christians. "How could he call himself a Christians, and do something like that? Christianity is the religion of love."

By this reasoning, the Pilgrims, and their governor William Bradford, the Puritans and their Governor John Winthrop, of Massachusetts Bay Colony, they who risked everything for religious freedom, were not Christians, since they committed crimes against humanity (justifying them as Christians).

Of course, he was a Muslim, and he, in part, was motivated by his beliefs. HOWEVER, being a Muslim was a necessary, NOT sufficient cause for him to act as he did.

His motives were complex. He was mentally decompensating. How is it that no one saw the signs? What, then, does the religion factor say? What does history tell us?

Aside from the fact that our history in the Middle East, the US genocide in Iraq and Afghanistan, for which we paved the way with our support of Zia, Osama, the Taliban, has and will cost us, it tells us we would all be better off without religion.
That said, what's next.

Frankly, I believe freedom FROM religion, from legislating vaticans, from legislating Fundies, for example, is a basic human right. Americans deserve freedom FROM religion as much as the people of Pakistan do.

It is a basic human right, one which the UN should take up.

Perhaps when Hasan started in the army,

he didn't know that America would spend the next decade fighting only Muslims and Arabs?

Perhaps he thought he was going to defend America, not help slaughter his own

at the behest of Israel and is's wishes, for phony reasons like WMDs...

Must have been a surprise.

Comes now Franaz, quick to accuse others of anti-Semeticism, while spewing her hatred of Muslims. How typical of a follower of Abraham.

Posted by: coloradodog |
----------------------------
You have already commented with anti-Jewish racist posts, having nothing to do with "Abraham," posts for which you later apologized, while at the same time, elsewhere, psoting antisemetic trash elsewhere.

I spent time responding to you, explaining that it was difficult for me to take your apology seriously since you had just repeated the same behavior.

And, here you go again. I don't have time for you. You are a grown man, while Yassir is young, and, it would seem, already better educated.

I am not a "follower of Abraham," nor is anyone else. (What would we follow?) You, however, appear to be quite typical of some followers of the NT, they who brought genocide to the world.

YOu are confused, very. You do not know yourself, and you are ill-equipped to follow the chat Yasser and I have been having.

Concentrate on your self. Look at the dead and injured at Fort Hood. Ask how, historically, you and many of your NT imperialism, genociding in Iraq and Afghanistan, etc., might have played in to all of this.

Hasan is a very sick man. He did what he did for complex motives. But you and your followers played a part.

The mirror, Dog, is the place you should start.

Mr. Patel says "a Muslim did not do this".

While it is good to know that Mr. Patel condemns this act, we should believe Patel and his fellow Muslims are sincere in their desire for peace only when they acknowledge that these kinds of animals are indeed Muslims, and start to reform the rotten soul of Islam to bring it from the 7th century into the 21st century. Until then, spare us this "a Muslim did not do this" nonsense. What was he? A Zoroastrian?

However, all is not lost - I can agree with Mr. Patel on one thing. He states:"What is even more important is to state clearly what Islam stands for." I couldn't agree with Patel more.

This is garbage, of course he is a true muslim this "peaceful religion" is murdering thousands across the planet and to pretend that it isn't just leads to more lambs being led to the slaughter. Until Islam offers a reformation movement as every other major religion has in denouncing violence, all these protestations should fall on deaf ears.

Eboo,

You correctly write "Of course these condemnations [by ADAMS- All Dulles Area Muslim Society; by ISNA -Islamic Society of North America; and by MPAC -Muslm Public Affairs Council] are important. What is even more important is to state clearly what Islam stands for".

And what Islam stands for is: first of all submission unto the will of Allah; second, peace and mercy and forgiveness and compassion for all, irrespective of his or her nation, tribe, faith, class or political affiliation; and, third, solidarity with those who strive -- for spiritual progress, for material progress, for social advancement, for the development of all the members of whatever community he is living in, and that, more immediately than for the betterment of the Umma. To put it al very succinctly, a Muslim has to have humanitarian values first and Muslim values alongside these values, on an equal footing.

And, in this context, I find your misjudgement of Major Malik Hasan falling far short of Islamic humanitarianism. You cannot, you don't have any right to make any pronouncement to the efect that Hasan is not a Muslim. He is the victim of post traumatic stress disorder the way any psychiatrist or psychologist or healthcare provider can suddenly become, worn down by despair, frustrations -- traumas, including the trua of canstantly listening to the traumas experienced by others and internalising them so as to be effective in seeking to heal them, and, in the case of Hasan, extrapolating hoe much worse the traumsa may be on those who are at the receiving end of the violence of war.

In a word, I find Susan Brooks Thistlethwaite's opinion piece (http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/susan_brooks_thistlethwaite/2009/11/fort_hood_trauma_is_contagious.html) not only much better-informed than your hasty judgement, but I find hers far more representative of Islamic values than yours.

hariuam wrote: "There are killers that are muslim, there are killers that are christian, there are killers that are buddhists, and killers that are atheists.

No one man speaks for a religion (positively or negatively) but each man has the right to his religion. Even a murderer. This man is a muslim."

I couldn't agree more. To the fundamentalist the liberal is not a true Christian, Muslim, Jew, or whatever other religion. To the liberal, the fundamentalist has it all wrong. Both are being self-serving and ignoring the vagueness of scripture that allows such wide disparities in interpretation. The pacifist and the violent bigot can each cite scripture to back up their position as the "real" one. This has always been and will always be a fundamental flaw of religion as a basis for moral systems, and why a humanist morality based on empathy and equality will always remain superior.

As soon as there's an "us" and a "them" moral systems break down. While I understand and empathize with the desire peaceable Muslims have to distance themselves from the acts of the violent minority, this man was as Muslim as any other, just as the abortion clinic bomber is as Christian as the liberal pacifist. When tribal systems are used as a measure of humanity, dehumanization of the "other" is the inevitable result.

I read:The problem is whenever someone "of faith" does something like this "the faith" disowns them and distances themselves from them. Up to this moment you would have claimed them as a brother in Islam or Christianity, etc. Either they are your brother or notEach creed defines its dogma, what one believes in, to a stricter or laxer degree.  Christians often refer to the Tridentine Creed for orthodoxy. Each of the three Semitic religions - Judaism, Christianity and Islam - forbid hating in the name of God, for they all recognize the Commandments:
I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. You shall have no other gods before Me....You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vainTherefore, committing wickedness in the name of God is a sacrilege in all three religions; an abomination; and finally, an apostasy - one that sets one as an outsider from the dogma and beliefs of that religion.
Men who ran the death camps during WWII - they did not stop becoming German, or even European.  But they did cease to become Christian, although they may have pretended that they were - as did Mohammad Atta and his followers.  They ceased to be Muslim when they agreed to commit that sort of horror, because Islam simply meand obedience to God.  (An adherent of Islam is a Muslim, meaning "one who submits (to God), Wikipedia)
When the cries of the innocent went up to God's ears on September 11, 2001, I believe that He heard them - and did not ask, "Wait, are you Jewish or Presbyterian, or Sunni, or what now?"  But when the cries of the killers went up, those he did not hear.

Hasan was not a Muslim? He not only was a 'devout' Muslim who studied the Koran and distributed copies of it, and even tried lecturing fellow doctors on it and its mandate to either 'convert' ALL Infidels, or KILL them. Sure there are millions of peaceful Muslims but there are millions more who chose to follow the most militant interpretation of that faith and specific 'commandments' of the Koran:

Right from the Koran

9.5-6: "Kill those who join other gods with God wherever you may find
them."

4.76: "Those who believe fight in the cause of God..."

8.12: "I will instill terror into the hearts of the Infidels,
strike off their heads then, and strike off from them every
fingertip."

8.39-42: "Say to the Infidels: If they desist from their unbelief,
what is now past shall be forgiven them; but if they return to it,
they have already before them the doom of the ancients! Fight then
against them till strife be at an end, and the religion be all of it
God's."

2.256: "But they who believe, and who fly their country, and fight in
the cause of God may hope for God's mercy: and God is Gracious,
Merciful."

8.15, 16: "Believers, when you meet the unbelievers preparing for
battle do not turn your backs to them. [ Anyone who does ] shall incur
the wrath of God and hell shall be his home: an evil dwelling indeed
".

9.39: "If you do not fight, He will punish you severely, and put
others in your place."

By the way, there are many who have studied Islam and argue that, since Islam was born in and remains violent, it is the BAD Muslims who ignore the versus above!

Sure Christianity in its earliest days was violent - the Crusades. But we grew out of it, to the point of speratating non-violent Church from often-violent State. Islam never did!!!

Every time a Muslim commits an atrocity we are told by the politically correct that he wasn't a "real" Muslim. Where are the real Muslims? The ones we know are the terrorists.

Hasan is not a true Muslim?!
Go read about Islam and see:

http://islamisbad.com

S D Rodrian

.

He was acting in accordance with his faith. He was as true a Muslim as Mohammed. Islam was born of violence, utilized violence in its spread, and exhorts its followers to violence.

Trying peddling "he wasn't a true muslim" to those who haven't read the Koran. I am not buying it.

Mr. Patel,

After years of hearing reports of Muslim groups and individuals citing religious justification for violence, the constant exhortations that Islam is peaceful to it's core and that it roundly rejects violence in it's name are starting to ring just a bit hollow with us non-Muslims.

I certainly would expect most members of the Muslim community, with all Americans, to denounce these acts of violence after the fact.

The problem is that this denounciation comes too late to make many of us feel warm and fuzzy about Islam.

If you want us non-Muslims to stop viewing your "Ummah" with suspicion, how about you and other members of the Muslim community take some proactive steps to rein in your co-religionists who seem to embrace this violent mindset.

You can start with these two guys:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/11/05/radicals.mosque/index.html

"But a Muslim did not do this." This an asinine statement by Mr. Patel. It sure wasn't a Scientologist shooting unarmed victims on Fort Hood! A few muslims decry these incidents AFTER the fact but are not doing much to prevent them. I keep hearing a lot of excuses, such as the hasan was harassed for being a muslim but I don't see the evidence. Hasan is a murderous muslim terrorist. Period.

FarnazMAnsouri,

I do not deny the evil practice of having children as Camel Jockeys persists in the dark alleys of the rich sheikhs of UAE. They pick up the most weakest and lightest kid so that the Camel does not have to carry too much weight, thats why the Jockeys are between 5-12 years old. The reason they prefer Children is because when the camel runs these children cry as hard as they can which in turn makes the Camel run faster. Most of these children return after serious mental problems, some even die during the races. These shaikhs pay hundreds of thousands of rupees to the poor families of these children. No one in his right mind can condone this action. Its a crime~! It needs to be punished in the strictest possible terms. But criminals are everywhere. It has NOTHING to do with islam or muslims in general except from the fact that the criminals happen to be muslims. These races only take place at nights in some secret locations. The way you putup this question I thought you were repeating stereotypical joke of Arab = Muslim = Camel Jockey. I aint no arab, we are south asians and very different from arabs but I think in the context my reply which you quoted sounds really stupid. So yea......my apoligies for that.

Regarding the Banu Quraizah Jews, I skimmed through all your posts~! They delve into details which are debateable. But can we agree on the chain of events I posted earlier that:

1. Banu Quraizah made a pact with rest of the population of Medina to safeguard Medina in case of an attack.

2. That the punishment of breaking that pledge was exactly what Banu Quraizah got.

3. That Banu Quraizah broke their pledge not once but trice having been forgiven the first two times.

4. That the third time round Banu Quraizah infact openly conspired with the enemies of Islam who came to finish off Islam once and for all, with the hope that Muslims would certainly be overwhelmed this time round.

5 That the arbitrator after Banu Quraizah lost the war to muslims was not Prophet Muhammad but a Former Jewish wise old man by the name Saad Bin Maaz whom Banu Quraizah themselves asked to arbitrate. Had Banu Quraizah trusted the Prophet of Allah, they would have certainly been spared.

Let me know if you disagree with any of these points, then I'll attempt to prove them.

CalSailor,
a nice, measured post. but you noted,
"Right now, Islam is getting blamed for ANY actions of any of its adherents. The day after the Ft Hood shootings, a Hispanic sur-named man shot up a worksite in Florida. In the two days after the Ft Hood shooting, there were murders involving service members at Camp Lejeune, and another Army base. In none of these three instances were the person's religion tagged as the reasons for their actions."

well...i don't think in those cases the killer shouted any religious slogans as they killed people.

Comes now Franaz, quick to accuse others of anti-Semeticism, while spewing her hatred of Muslims. How typical of a follower of Abraham.

Part 4

Bottom line: Maj Hasan, rightly or not, felt completely trapped. He blew up. He chose the worst possible way of resolving his issues. How much his religion played a role is for the investigations to determine. Like anyone of any sort of belief structure, it played a role, perhaps THE dominent role. Based on what I have read, I am not sure which of the issues in his life caused him to go off the deep end and act out as he did. I do know that no one can blame a religion for the actions of its members. Right now, Islam is getting blamed for ANY actions of any of its adherents. The day after the Ft Hood shootings, a Hispanic sur-named man shot up a worksite in Florida. In the two days after the Ft Hood shooting, there were murders involving service members at Camp Lejeune, and another Army base. In none of these three instances were the person's religion tagged as the reasons for their actions. All you can say about Islam and Maj Hasan was that HIS interpretation of Islam was one of the factors that led to the worst disaster in US military history.

My prayers and condolances for the victims of Ft. Hood, and their families and friends. May those injured be granted swift healing and the families of the fallen be consoled in their time of grief.

Pr Chris
CDR, USN (Ret)

Part 3

4. Maj Hasan objected vocally and on more than one occasion to the war, and to the theatre of the war. Had the war been in say, Central America, or Japan, he would probably not have had the issues he apparently did. At what point do his objections and arguments begin to have significance? How do colleagues raise the question of significance, without putting themselves in the path of an angry individual, or at the same time, without destroying somone else's career over what is perhaps a misunderstanding. The army has a saying: A contented soldier is a [griping] soldier. A soldier who doesn't complain is of concern. Griping over assignments, duties, food, etc., is normal. When does it become abnormal?

Question for the army: How do we deal with those who are so disgruntled that they need to be dealt with, and at the same time, not destroy people's careers over a passing gripe?

5. Did Maj Hasan have any alternatives? Yes, but none of them were probably very palatable:

a. Act so negatively that he fails of promotion, or is otherwise discharged as not in the army's best interests to retain. Having been promoted to Maj, it will be 5 years or more before he even comes up for Lt Col, and for a Medical Officer, Maj is fairly routine promotion (achieved by something in excess of 90%) so he would have had to be flagged perhaps a couple of years ago. Five or 6 years would probably have seemed like forever to Maj Hasan, when faced with orders. Also, in a time of little job hiring in the civilian world, he may not have felt that he could get a job had he gotten out of the army under less than a decent discharge.

b. He could have objected to his deployment, loudly and often, and generally made such an issue that his command would have pulled his orders and had him re-evaluated. The problem with this, like the option of failing out, is what this does to any further career, inside or outside of the army. Being tagged enough of a malcontent that one gets out of orders to a war theatre is not a good career move.

c. Failing all else, he could have simply not reported for movement and gone AWOL. AWOL becomes desertion, and, if you are gone long enough, you'll be arrested at some point and court-martialed. But again, he could not have been sure that the army would have discharged him. Without his true name and credentials, getting any sort of civilian job would have seemed very difficult.

Pr Chris
CDR USN (Ret)

Keep repeating that~! wont make it true. When did I ever deny camel jockeys?? Thats another lie.
Posted by: yasseryousufi | November 7, 2009 4:35 PM
Report Offensive Comment
------------------
FarnazMansouri1,

"yasseryousufi,
Isn't it time to discuss camel racing?"

Dont you get tired of this done to death joke? How's your organ harvesting buisness going in Newyork btw? I heard those of Palestinian children give the best return.

Posted by: yasseryousufi | November 7, 2009 12:40 AM

JJ:

Did Ye know that Mr. MUHHAMAD & CO; commited a "God is Great" HOLOCAUST (Zoroastrian SHOAH) that makes Mr. Hitler & Sir Stalin, Blush!?
---------------------
Thanks for the info. I knew a little about it, not much.

JJ, the problem, IMO, is religion itself. Who knows what Jews might have done had they gotten into the conversion industry like the Muslims or the Christians? Had they attained the numbers of the Hindus?

YASSERYOUSUFI,

I've spent a signifcant amount of time on you, in hopes that some of your Jew hatred might let up.

I think you have a long, long way to go. You cannot simply assert that camel racing doesn't exist, that little boys aren't sold, kidnapped for the sport, to anyone, let alone an academic who works with UNICEF.

Similarly, you cannot deny the horrible history of the Qurayza Jews, then bait her, until she must post that which she knows will embarrass you even more than your calling the horror of kidnapped, enslaved camel racing boys fiction, only to find yourself confronted with sources.

Ditto the enslaved three million Christians forced from generation to generation to clean out sewers with their fingers.

The child prostitutes, etc.

RACISM will get you nowhere. Neither will you win this with name calling. If you continue on this absurd path, you'll destroy whatever potential you have, whatever possible allies you may find.

I gotta go sleep now. If you can Farnaz, try writing an abridged version of whatever this is you're posting. You wouldnt expect me to read all that even though its Sunday tommorow~!

Farnaz is in a trance I guess~! She's in another world!

The genocide the Banu Qurayza Jews, well-documented in both Quroan and Hadiths, provides a blueprint for mass murders of today.
-----
Genocide of the Banu Qurayza Jews

"According to “Sirat-a-Rasul” (page 464) by Ibn Ishaq the story goes as follows:
After the Battle of the Ditch, when the coalition force of Quraish left the battle field, Prophet Muhammad attacked the last of the large Jewish tribes of Medina, the Banu Qurayza. After a 25 days siege, they (Jews) surrender unconditionally. In the end, all 600-700 males of the tribe were killed and the women and children sold into slavery.

IN DETAIL
The Banu Quraiza Jewish tribe was attacked for not supporting Prophet Muhammad when the Quraish’s coalition force from Mecca attacked Medina (The battle of trench). After the withdrawal of the coalition force the Jews were isolated. Hazrat Ali (ra) sworn that he would never stop until he either storms their garrisons or be killed. As per sahi hadiths (Buchari)—when the Prophet returned from the battle of Al-Khandaq (i.e. Trench) and laid down his arms and took a bath, Gabriel came to the apostle wearing an embroidered turban and riding on a mule with a saddle covered with a piece of brocade and asked, “ You have laid down your arms? By Allah, we angels have not laid them down yet and I have just come from pursuing the enemy. 'God commands you, Muhammad, to go to Banu Qurayza. I am about to go to them to shake their stronghold (to terrorize Jews). So set out for them." The Prophet said, "Where to go?" Gabriel said, "Towards this side," pointing towards Banu Quraiza. So the Prophet went out towards them. Below is one master piece Sahi hadith proving the story:
Muslim: Volume 5, Book 59, Number 444:
Narrated by Anas:
“As if I am just now looking at the dust rising in the street of Banu Ghanm (in Medina) because of the marching of Gabriel's regiment when Allah's Apostle set out to Banu Quraiza (to attack them).”
CONTINUES BELOW

CONTINUED: THE GENOCIDE OF THE QURAYZA JEWS
After a continuous siege of 25 days, the Banu Qurayza Jews surrendered to Prophet Muhammad unconditionally. Muhammad ordered that the men be handcuffed, while the women and children were isolated in confinement. Thereupon Al-Aws tribe interceded begging the Prophet to be lenient towards them. Muhammad suggested that Sa‘d bin Mu‘adh, a former ally, be deputed to give verdict about them, and they agreed.

Sa’d bin Mu’adh was the leader of a large Medinan tribe, the Aws (or Aus), some of whom favored old alliances with the Jews. The leader was an elderly man who was seriously wounded in the battle of trench (Source: Ibn Ishaq, p. 462; Watt, Muhammad at Medina, pp. 188-89; 214-17). Sa’d gave the verdict that, "that all the able-bodied (adult) male persons belonging to the tribe should be killed, women and children taken prisoners and their wealth divided among the Muslim fighters." Compassionate Prophet Muhammad answers in endorsement of this: “You have given the judgement of Allah above the seven heavens...”, (Source: Ibn Ishaq, pp. 463-64; Tabari vol. 8, p. 34).

To separate adult men from the pre-pubescent boys, the youngsters were examined and if they had grown any pubic hair, it was enough to behead them (Abu Dawud; see Ibn Ishaq, p. 466)..
Sunan Abu-Dawud-Book 38, No. 4390
Narrated Atiyyah al-Qurazi:
“I was among the captives of Banu Qurayzah. They (the Companions) examined us, and those who had begun to grow hair (pubes) were killed, and those who had not were not killed. I was among those who had not grown hair.”

The apostle confined them in Medina in the quarter of al-Harith, a woman of B. al-Najjar.

Why dont you send the whole book farnaz~! It'll take eternity to read all this gibberish you're posting. Take a deep breath girl~! Let it go~! Stop embarrasing yourself!

CONTINUED: THE GENOCIDE OF THE QURAYZA JEWS
Then the apostle went out to the market of Medina (which is still the market today) and dug trenches in it. Then he sent for them and struck off their heads in those trenches as they were brought out to him in batches. This went on until the apostle made an end of them. Among them was the enemy of Allah Huyayy b. Akhtab and Ka`b b. Asad their chief, and they were brought with their hands bound to their neck by a rope. There were 600 or 700 in all, though some put the figure as high as 800 or 900. Apparently Muhammad himself worked on the digging of the trench into which the massacred Jews were to be thrown. But he did not only take part in those preparations, the formulation of the text states that HE sent for them and STRUCK OFF their heads. Prophet Muhammad also had had huge spoils (Maal-E-Ganimat) from this "final solution" of this richest Jewish tribe of Banu Quraiza.

This next hadith indicates that a woman was delirious. She was killed.
Book 14, Number 2665:
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: “ No woman of Banu [tribe] Qurayzah was killed except one. She was with me, talking and laughing on her back and belly (extremely), while the Apostle of Allah . . . was killing her people with the swords. Suddenly a man called her name: Where is so-and-so? . . . I asked: What is the matter with you? She said: I did a new act. [Aisha] said: The man took her and beheaded her. [Aisha] said: I will not forget that she was laughing extremely although she knew that she would be killed.” (Abu Dawud)

CONTINUED: THE GENOCIDE OF THE QURAYZA JEWS
The following narrative says that Prophet Muhammad took one beautiful woman for himself.

The apostle had chosen one of their women for himself, Rayhana bint Amr . . . one of the women of . . . Qurayza, and she remained with him until she died, in his power. The apostle had proposed to marry and put a veil on her, but she said: "Nay, leave me in your power, for that will be easier for me and for you." So he left her. She had shown repugnance towards Islam when she was captured and clung to Judaism. (Ibn Ishaq, p. 466)

Banu Qurayza’s Massacre supported by Merciful Allah:

Evidences from Quranic verses are very clear and surprisingly emphatic. Allah actually celebrated this slaughter and enslavement of Banu Qurayza Jews. That these verses were received during/after the Banu Qurayza incident were supported by most Quranic translators like Maoulana A. Yousuf Ali, Hazrat Maulana mufti Muhammad Shafi, Maulana Muhiuddin Khan etc, and of course, by the most famous Islamic scholar Ibn Ishaq. Merciful Allah promptly sent Qur’anic verses during that period of Banu Qurayza war to justify the cruelty of Prophet Muhammad. Here are some Quranic gems which speak the entire truth about Banu Qurayza massacre:

CONTINUED: THE GENOCIDE OF THE QURAZA JEWS
Quran-33:25- “Allah turned back the unbelievers [Meccans and their allies] in a state of rage, having not won any good, and Allah spared the believers battle. Allah is, indeed, Strong and Mighty.”
Quran-33:26- “And He brought those of the People of the Book [Jewish people of Banu Qurayza] who supported them from their fortresses and cast terror into their hearts, some of them you slew (beheaded) and some you took prisoners (captive)”
Quran-33:27- “And He made you heirs of their lands, their houses, and their goods, and of a land which ye had not frequented (before). And Allah has power over all things.” [Merciful Allah asked Prophet Muhammad to confiscate entire properties of surrendered Jews]
Quran-8:67—“It is not fitting for an Apostle that he should have prisoners of war until He thoroughly subdued the land….” (Allah insisting Prophet to kill all the prisoners, and should not keep any surrendered prisoners alive until He (Prophet) occupied entire Arabia.”
Quran-8:17—It is not ye who Slew them; it is God; when thou threwest a handful of dust, it was not Thy act, but God’s…..” (Allah said, the killing of surrendered soldiers were done by the wish of Allah)

CONTINUED: THE GENOCIDE OF THE QURAYZA JEWS
These above Quranic verses revealed some unpleasant truths:

The verses: 33:25-27 were revealed to describe Banu Qurayza incident and clearly talking about the unbelievers (Quresh pagans, and their allies Jews of Banu Quraiza).

The verse 33:25 told about the retreat of the great force of unbelievers without any success; verse-26 told about how later the traitor Jewish tribe banu Quraiza was raided and seized and Jewish people were terrorized by Muhammad’s army; and verse-33: 27 told—how by the judgement of Sa’d ibn Muaz all the men were slaughtered and women and children were captivated. And Jewish land and property were taken as Booty….Sa’d delivered his justice according to Bible; hence Muhammad said—“your judgenet was like God.”

Allah permitted the enslavement and beheading of Jews, so any Muslim familiar with the background of this verse knows that beheading as such has been assimilated into the Quran. The word q-t-l in verse-33:26 means slaughter. What is so troubling about the verse is that it seems Allah (Himself) celebrated the "terror" that He threw into the Jews’ hearts. Indeed, when Abu Lubabah the mediator approached the Jews during negotiations, the women and children were crying. Allah of course heavily terrorized them. What a Merciful Allah always resided inside the sleeve of Prophet Muhammad!

The Prophet Muhammad had expelled two other Jewish tribes (Qaynuqa and Nadir) from Medina, so he could have done the same with the Qurayza—as indeed Banu Quryza Jews begged for mercy and requested to let them leave Medina. But the prophet for humanity (?) declined this merciful and humane option.
Quranic Tafsir supported Banu Qurayza massacre:

Well, Farnaz, ya never misses a chance, does ya, to vomit yer bigotry?

A horrendous murder, by an obvious psycho, and you immediately take it as a launching pad for your endless hatred.

You remind me so very much of CCNL - both of you loathe Islam, and both of you want Christianity to be castrated.

You are despicable.

CONTINUED: GENOCIDE OF THE QURAYZA JEWS
Maulana A. Yousuf Ali stated: “The men of the Quraiza were slain; the women were sold as captives of war (booty); and their lands and properties were distributed or divided among the Muhajirs (Yousuf Ali’s tafsir for Sura Ahzab)”.
Maulana Mufti Muhammad Shafi) writes: “Allah ordered Prophet not to keep any war prisoners until entire land is occupied; because by killing enemy prisoners will crush morals of unvbelievers. Some disciples such as Siddique Akbar (ra) suggested tom keep war prisoners to earn ransoms; but Hazrat Omar ibn Khattab (ra) and Hazrat s’aad ibn muaaz (ra) suggested to kill all able-bodied war prisonesrs (In sura A’nfal (#8): Tafsir by Maulana Mufti Muhammad Shafi).”
Also please read Koranic Tafsir of Sura Ahzab by Maulana Muhiuddin Khan (Saudi aided Bengali translation of Koran)
What HADITHS says about Banu Qurayza Slaughter
That Prophet Muhammad systematically eradicated Jews (who actually welcomed him when he fled to Medina from Mecca) from Medina. He beheaded the men and the pubescent boys and enslaved the women and children. In doing this, he wiped out several Jewish tribes "off the map" just the way Iranian Islamic president Ahmdijannbad desires to do same with present day Jews in Israel. These Islamic cruelties were recorded by various sahi hadiths as follows:
Sahi Bukhari :Volume 5, Book 59, Number 443: Narrated 'Aisha:
When the Prophet returned from the battle of Al-Khandaq (i.e. Trench) and laid down his arms and took a bath, Gabriel came and said (to the Prophet), “you have laid down your arms? By Allah, we angels have not laid them down yet. So set out for them." The Prophet said, "Where to go?" Gabriel said, "Towards this side," pointing towards Banu Quraiza. So the Prophet went out towards them.

CONTINUED: GENOCIDE OF THE QURAYZA JEWS
Book 019, Number 4368:
It has been narrated on the authority of Abu Sa'id al-Khudri who said: The people of Banu Quraiza surrendered accepting the decision of Sa'd b. Mu'adh about them. Accordingly, the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent for Sa'd who came to him riding a donkey. When he approached the mosque, the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said to the Ansar: Stand up to receive your chieftain. Then he said (to Sa'd): These people have surrendered accepting your decision. He (Sa'd) said: “You will kill their fighters and capture their women and children.” (Hearing this), the Prophet (may peace be upon him) said: “You have adjudged by the command of God.”
Sahi Bukhari: Book 019, Number 4370:
It has been narrated on the authority of A'isha who said: Sa'd was wounded on the day of the Battle of the Ditch. A man from the Quraish called Ibn al-Ariqah shot at him an arrow which pierced the artery in the middle of his forearm. The Messenger of Allah (may peacce be upon him) pitched a tent for him in the mosque and would inquire after him being in close proximity. When he returned from the Ditch and laid down his arms and took a bath, the angel Gabriel appeared to him and he was removing dust from his hair (as if he had just returned from the battle). The latter said: You have laid down arms. By God, we haven't (yet) laid them down. So march against them. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) asked: Where? He pointed to Banu Quraiza. So the Messenger of Allah (may peace he upon him) fought against them. They surrendered at the command of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him), but he referred the decision about them to Sa'd who said: “I decide about them that those of them who can fight be killed, their women and children taken prisoners and their properties distributed (among the Muslims).”

Part 2

2. Major Hasan was a specialist in "disaster psychology", which means that he dealt daily with patients reliving the worst experiences of their lives, of things they have seen and perhaps done, that have created extreme guilt, rage, fear, etc. Even vicariously, this is an extremely difficult field of psychiatry.

Questions for the army: How much exposure to this can the individual counselor undergo without becoming a psychiatric basket case himself? What procedures does the army have, or what should be instituted to decompress these experiences for the counselors? What are the considerations that must be evaluated to have some indications of whether the counselor is approaching a crisis? How does the army prevent the next one?

3. Major Hasan's personality was of a man who was quiet, and kept to himself. He was also single, without family. Not having a family is not disqualifying, nor is prefering to keep to one's own interests. Starting investigations on people because they don't go to the bar with the co-workers is also not a valid method.

Questions for the army: relating to the topic above, how can the army make sure that the counselor has a sufficient support network to be able to process what he or she is confronted with each day? Maj Hasan apparently had no support network. Without assuming all single counselors are a threat, how does the army help counselors find support opportunities? Traditionally psychiatrists themselves go through psychiatric therapy as part of their training. Does something like this need to continue? How do the professionals in a command help each other? And what does the army do to compel counselors to seek/accept help? How does the system do that and keep the integrity of the promotion system, and without betraying personal rights of the professional?

Pr Chris
CDR, USN (Ret)

CONTINUED: GENOCIDE OF THE QURAYZA JEWS
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 280: Narrated Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri:
When the tribe of Bani Quraiza was ready to accept Sad's judgment, Allah's Apostle sent for Sad who was near to him. Sad came, riding a donkey and when he came near, Allah's Apostle said (to the Ansar), "Stand up for your leader." Then Sad came and sat beside Allah's Apostle who said to him. "These people are ready to accept your judgment." Sad said, "I give the judgment that their warriors should be killed and their children and women should be taken as prisoners." The Prophet then remarked, "O Sad! You have judged amongst them with (or similar to) the judgment of the King Allah."
What else we need to authenticate Banu Qurayza massacre? We have scores of Quranic verses, sahi hadiths along with Islamic historical accounts recorded by the most famous and oldest biographer like Ibn Ishaq which are very strong and unambiguous evidences supporting this heinous act of Prophet Muhammad. How in the world any sane human being can deny such clear evidences from the very nucleus (Quran, sahi Hadisths and biographies) of Islam?

Part 2

2. Major Hasan was a specialist in "disaster psychology", which means that he dealt daily with patients reliving the worst experiences of their lives, of things they have seen and perhaps done, that have created extreme guilt, rage, fear, etc. Even vicariously, this is an extremely difficult field of psychiatry.

Questions for the army: How much exposure to this can the individual counselor undergo without becoming a psychiatric basket case himself? What procedures does the army have, or what should be instituted to decompress these experiences for the counselors? What are the considerations that must be evaluated to have some indications of whether the counselor is approaching a crisis? How does the army prevent the next one?

3. Major Hasan's personality was of a man who was quiet, and kept to himself. He was also single, without family. Not having a family is not disqualifying, nor is prefering to keep to one's own interests. Starting investigations on people because they don't go to the bar with the co-workers is also not a valid method.

Questions for the army: relating to the topic above, how can the army make sure that the counselor has a sufficient support network to be able to process what he or she is confronted with each day? Maj Hasan apparently had no support network. Without assuming all single counselors are a threat, how does the army help counselors find support opportunities? Traditionally psychiatrists themselves go through psychiatric therapy as part of their training. Does something like this need to continue? How do the professionals in a command help each other? And what does the army do to compel counselors to seek/accept help? How does the system do that and keep the integrity of the promotion system, and without betraying personal rights of the professional?

Pr Chris
CDR, USN (Ret)

Part 1

When a person commits to military service, he or she cannot know what the future may hold. You may be fortunate to serve in a time of peace, or may be called to battle in a time of war. Apparently, when Maj Hasan started medical school, before 9/11, he had no special indication what the future would be in the military. After 9/11, it became clear that the focus for the future was going to be in the Middle East. Given that reality, Maj Hasan found himself in a difficult situation. One that he resolved in the worst possible way. Are there a whole constellation of issues that contributed? Absolutely! Could he have done something else? Absolutely! Did the Army as an institution contribute to the situation? Yes. Is the ultimate responsibility for the carnage Maj Hasan's alone? Yes.

Some of the background:

1. Maj Hasan incurred obligated service in return for education. Officers, especially, experience obligated service issues for a whole number of reasons, including: education, acceptance of promotion, change of station, etc. Sometimes, the result is that an officer is committed longer than a defined contract, such as enlisteds have, that means they will spend years in uniform.

The problem for the army in all this is: according to the family, Maj Hasan wanted out, and offered to repay the training expenses, but the army said no. In fairness to the army, they had an investment in his education, and mental health professionals are difficult to recruit and retain, they are in extreme demand given the war and the stresses of combat, and the army is not easily going to let one go. In addition, if you make getting out too easy, people will "take the [training] and run".

Question for the army in the future: should there be some sort of exception that would allow some to get out with repayment, and how difficult does the army make it? How does one balance the needs of the army and the needs of the individual?

Pr Chris
CDR, USN (Ret)

CONTINUED: GENOCIDE OF THE QURAYZA JEWS
Merciful Allah’s reward (Booty) for Jihadis:

Allah repeatedly promised bountiful rewards for the believers both in this life and afterlife. But Allah never told believers to work hard to get it or to establish industries or business; neither anything which could make economy better, nor any lucrative rewards dropped from the sky! But then, what was the ultimate source of promised bounty for the believers during 7th century period? Answer is, it was BOOTY (spoils) sanctioned by Allah in the holy Quran. Booty was the most cruel and immoral provision practiced by Islamic jihadis, which not even any known ancient invaders (Alexander the Great, Romans, Persians or Assyrians etc.) did practice. Allah’s techniques of making Muslims (believers) richer were simple burglary, plundering and highway robbery (after sudden attack/invading) of Arab’s business caravans, neighboring tribes or sovereign nations. Allah of Islam emphatically encouraged and gave Muslims license to invade, subdue or kill all non-Muslim men and to take their women, children and all properties of the prisoners as booty (Ganimah). He (Allah) made booty Halal (lawful) for Muslim warriors. One can find all those tempting verses of Sura Anf’al from Allah inviting Muslims to enjoy booty sanctioned for them. Below are some examples how Quran openly supported Islamic jihadi’s immoral acts:
Quran-8:69—“But (now) enjoy what ye took in war (booty), lawful and good; but fear God…” (Allah encouraging Muslims to accept booty spoils of war “Maal-E-Ganimat”)
Quran-8:1— “They ask thee concerning (things taken as) spoils of war (booty). Say: "(such) spoils are at the disposal of Allah and the Messenger: So fear Allah, and keep straight the relations between yourselves: Obey Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe."
Quran-8:41— “And know that out of all the booty that ye may acquire (in war), a fifth share is assigned to Allah,- and to the Messenger, and to near relatives, orphans, the needy, and the wayfarer,- if ye do believe in Allah and in the revelation We sent down to Our servant on the Day of Testing,- the Day of the meeting of the two forces. For Allah hath power over all things.”

CONTINUED: GENOCIDE OF THE QURAYZA JEWS
One may think that Islamic Allah was (actually) enslaved by Prophet Muhammad. Otherwise how in the world any divine God could allow such cruelest and highly immoral things to happen! Allah readily permitted Prophet Muhammad to take the Jewish clan’s property on the basis of conquest and his possession of all things (Quran-33:27). This is a dubious revelation and reasoning Allah speaks, and this benefits Muhammad materially and politically. This happened too often in Prophet Muhammad’s life. In fact, this “Booty” provision was the most dynamic and lucrative lure or attraction for amassing Arab have-nots (slaves, poor, vagabonds, unemployed destitute) in the Prophet Muhammad’s jihadi cult—in order to become rich by quick method in this life and also enjoy unlimited heavenly pleasures in afterlife!

What really happened to Jews in KHAYBAR?

Merciful prophet of Islam in his campaign of eradicating all the Jewish tribes (who were most prosperous and rich) from around Medina, he conquered Jewish tribe of Khaybar in May, 628CE. This was a preemptive surprise attack (Gazzowa) or a sudden and unprovoked assault on the Jews of Khaybar. This was a decisive victory for Muslims. The Jews lost ninety-three (93) men while the loss on the Muslim side was only nineteen (19) men. Muhammad took some Khaybar Jews as captives, including Safiyyah bt. Huyayy b. Akhtab, an exquisitely pretty young newly married bride of Kinanah b. al-Rabi b. al-Huqayq. She was the daughter of B. Nadir chief, Huayy b. Akhtab who was beheaded by Muhammad during the slaughtering of B. Qurayzah. Kinanah had recently married Safiyyah, the young, vivacious and pouted daughter of Huyayy and had received a good treasure trove as gift. Muhammad also took two daughters of Safiyaah's paternal uncle.

CONTINUED: SLAUGHTER OF THE QURAYZA JEWS
What sahi Bukhari says about Khaybar episode
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 512:
Narrated by Anas:
The Prophet offered the Fajr Prayer near Khaybar when it was still dark and then said, "Allahu-Akbar! Khaybar is destroyed, for whenever we approach a (hostile) nation (to fight), then evil will be the morning for those who have been warned." Then the inhabitants of Khaybar came out running on the roads. The Prophet had their warriors killed, their offspring and woman taken as captives. Safiya was amongst the captives, She first came in the share of Dahya Alkali but later on she belonged to the Prophet . The Prophet made her manumission as her 'Mahr'. Muhammad was sixty (60) when he married Safiyyahh, a young girl of seventeen. She became his eighth wife.

Distribution of war booty in Khaybar:

Sahi Buchari Hadiths #143, page-700: Sulaiman Ibne Harb…Aannas Ibne Malek (ra) narrated, “in the war of Khayber after the inhabitants of Banu Nadir were surrendered, Allah’s apostle killed all the able/adult men, and he (prophet) took all women and children as captives (Ghani mateer maal).. Among the captives Safiyya Bint Huyy Akhtab was taken by Allah’s Apostle as booty whom He married after freeing her and her freedom was her Mahr.”

At first Dihyah al-Kalbi, a Muslim Jihadist asked for Safiyyah. But when Muhammad saw the unparallel beauty of her, he chosen her for himself and gave her two cousin sisters to Dihyah.

CONTINUED: SLAUGHTER OF BANU QURAYZA JEWS
Lascivious story supported by sahi hadiths:
(a) Sahi Buchari Hadiths (#149, page-704): Ahmed Ibne Saleh…Annas Ibne Malek narrated, “….when we told Apostle of Allah about the paragon beauty of Safiya Bint Huyay (who was newly wed and the husband was killed in the battle), then Allah’s Apostle sanctioned her for himself…”
(b) Sunan Abu Dawud: Kitab al-Kharaj
Book 19; number 2992
Anas said: Captives were gathered at Khaybar. Dihyah (a jihadi fighter) came and said: “Apostle of Allah, give me a slave-girl from the captives.” He said : Go and take a slave-girl. He took Safiyaah daughter of Huyayy. A man then came to the Prophet (may peace be upon him) and said: “You gave Safiyaah daughter of Huyayy, chief lady of Quraizah and al-Nadir to Dihyah?” This is according to the version of Ya'qub. Then the version goes: “She is worthy of you.” He said: “Call him along with her.” When the Prophet (may peace be upon him) looked at her, he said to him: “Take another slave-girl from the captives. The Prophet (May peace be upon him) then set her free and married her.
(c) Tabari writes: "After the Messenger of God conquered al-Qamus, the fortress of Ibn Abi al-Huqyaq, Safiyyah bt. Huyayy b. Akhtab was brought to him, and another woman with her. Bilal, who was the one who brought them, led them pat some of the slain Jews. When the woman who was with Safiyyah saw them, she cried out, struck her face, and poured dust on her head. When the Messenger of God saw her, he said, "Take this she-devil away from me!" she commanded that Safiyyah should be kept behind him and that the Messenger of God had chosen her for himself."

Recovering (booty) hidden gold treasures:

Prophet Muhammad accused Safiyyah's husband, Kinanah and his cousin of hiding some of their properties in contravention of the terms of surrender. He was especially angered that Kinanah had hidden the wealth (worth about ten thousad Dinars; i.e, US$ 500,000, approximately) that he received from his marriage to a B. Nadir girl (i.e. Safiyyah). A renegade Jew divulged the secret of Kinanah's hidden gold treasures. That Jew went and fetched the hidden treasures. Kinanah and his cousin were promptly arrested by the Muslims. Then Kinanah b. al-Rabi, Safiyyah's husband was brought to Muhammad. Muhammad charged him of hiding his wealth in some underground storage. When Kinanah denied this allegation, Muhammad ordered to inflict torture on him. He was tormented by branding his chest with a heated stake and then he was beheaded in Islamic style.

Farnaz, I have to say your cut and paste research is pretty unimpressive and mostly incoherent! Didnt I explained in detail that the reason for the punishment of Quraizah Jews was their own treachery and unfaithfulness? If it were for their wealth why would they have been tolerated for so long? you're the perfect example of a little bit knowledge being more dangerous. With regards to the Hadiths there are plenty of them that are misquoted, taken out of context or plain untrue~! The fact of the matter is Jews used to live all over the Arabian peninsula and still continue to live there. Its just 2 cities they are denied entry along with any other non muslim. The treachery of Banu Quaraizah probably had something to with it. There's also a story of Jews poisoning Prophet Muhammad, which your fellow jewish poster FOR-RUNNER alludes to in his post in this blog. So yea there's a reason for everything.

Farnaz:

I think you are not a bad person, you are just a little confused.

I rember you claiming to be an athiest. What I am trying to understand is: Why do you care what medieval Jews did or did not do or what their beliefs or practices were?

Shouldn't all of us be concerned as to how we establish a peaceful world order? I don't disagree that the past has implications for the present and the future but an atheiest shouldn't care less what the belief systems were and that whether they were superior to other belief systems. Supposedly an atheiest does not believe in those otherwise she wouldn't be an atheiest.

CONTINUED: SLAUGHTER OF BANU QURAYZA JEWS
Sourcing Ibn Ishak, Tabari writes:

'Kinanah b. al-Rabi b. al-Huqyaq who had the treasure of B. Nadir was brought to the Messenger of God, who questioned him; but he denied knowing where it was. Then the messenger of God was brought a Jew who said to him, "I have seen Kinanah walk around this ruin every morning." The Messenger of God said to Kinanah: "What do you say? If we find it in your possession, I will kill you." "All right," he answered. The Messenger of God commanded that the ruin should be dug up, and some of the treasure was extracted from it. Then he asked him for the rest of it. Kinanah refused to surrender it; so the Messenger of God gave orders concerning him to al-Zubayr b. al-'Awwam, saying, "torture him until you root out what he has." Al-Zubayr kept twirling his firestick in his breast until Kinanah almost expired; then the Messenger of God gave him to Muhammad b. Maslamah, who beheaded him to avenge his brother Mahmud b. Maslamah."' Muir writes that then the heads of the two chiefs (Kinana and his cousin) were severed off. Because of the so-called treachery by the Jews for allegedly hiding their treasures, Muhammad now allowed the Muslim Jihadists to take possession of the women and children of the Jews of Khaybar. Allah’s Messenger occupied Jewish land:
Sahih Muslim writes:
Book 010, Number 3759:
Ibn Umar (Allah be pleased with them) reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) handed over the land of Khaibar (on the condition) of the share of produce of fruits and harvest, and he also gave to his wives every year one hundred wasqs: eighty wasqs of dates and twenty wasqs of barley. When 'Umar became the caliph he distributed the (lands and trees) of Khaibar, and gave option to the wives of Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) to earmark for themselves the land and water or stick to the wasqs (that they got) every year. They differed in this matter. Some of them opted for land and water, and some of them opted for wasqs every year. 'A'isha and Hafsa were among those who opted for land and water.

CONTINUED: SLAUGHTER OF BANU QURAYZA JEWS
Enjoying special Booty:

After securing paragon beautiful Safiyaah daughter of Huyayy Prophet Muhammad has had sex with this young Safiyya in the tent, on their way back to Medina on the same night. Here is the precarious story: Merciful Prophet asked Bilal, the Negro crier of prayer to fetch Safiyyah to his (Muhammad's) camp. Bilal brought Safiyyah and her cousin straight across the battlefield strewn with dead and close by the corpses of Kinana and his cousin. The two cousin sisters of Safiyyah shrieked in terror when they witnessed the grotesque scene of the slain dead bodies of their dearest relatives that they had to cross over. They tremulously begged a stone-hearted Bilal for mercy but to no avail. When they were brought to Muhammad, he cursed the panic-stricken cousins as devilish and cast his mantle around Safiyyah indicating that she was to be his own. Muhammad consoled a frustrated Dhiya by giving him Safiyyah's cousin sisters. According to Ibn Sa'd Prophet Muhammad purchased Safiyyah from Dhiyah for seven camels (around US$ 2,450). On the same night (during the day her husband and all relatives were slaughtered) that Muhammad took possession of Safiyyah, he hastened to his tent to sleep with her. This was of course a holy character of Prophet of Islam!

Here is what Ibn Sa'd writes: "-.when it was night, he entered a tent and she entered with him. Abu Ayyub came there and passed the night by the tent with a sword keeping his head at the tent. When it was morning and the Apostle of Allah, may Allah bless him.” To hide the lascivious character of Muhammad, Muslim biographers often mention that he married Safiyyahh before he slept with her. But they forget to mention that Muhammad did not follow the rule of waiting period (three monthly periods) to sleep with Safiyyahh. He slept with her in the same day she was captured.

Above stories out of Sahi Hadiths clearly and undoubtedly have confirmed at least two things: (1) Prophet killed all those surrendered unarmed Jews in cold blood, (2) Prophet was attracted by Safiyya’s alluring beauty and he had sex with her (I really don’t care after marriage or before marriage) in a period when that poor Safiyya was in terrible grief by loosing her father, brother, husband and relatives and before the bloods of her relatives was even dry. By what yardstick can we measure the mercifulness and compassionateness of our Prophet? Could any Islamist tell me why Prophet of Islam had to set this terrible example?

CONTINUED: MASS MURDER OF THE QURAYZA JEWS
Islamic intolerance:
Book 019, Number 4366: It has been narrated by 'Umar b. al-Khattib that he heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say: “I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim.” [This single sahi hadiths tells everything about Islamic intolerance]
Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 288
The Prophet on his death-bed, gave three orders one of them was to Expel the pagans from the Arabian Peninsula.
Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 176
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:
Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.' "

This article has delved with the most sensitive historical incidents happened more than 1400 years ago. Naturally, for correct history, we must depend upon the related sources: Quran, Hadisths and Islamic history recorded by famous biographers. In this article I have used authentic information from the above sources most scrupulously. I have used verses from holy Quran, number of related hadiths as found in Sahih al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim; and from the life of Prophet Muhammad recorded by Ibn Ishaq in his word Sirat Rasul Allah available in the abridged edition of Ibn Hisham, and translated by A. Guillaume under the title The Life of Muhammad. This is by far the oldest (written) account of Prophet Muhammad's life in regard to the date of its first composition.

CONTINUED: SLAUGHTER OF THE QURAYZA JEWS

If anyone is looking for a down-to-earth reason for Prophet Muhammad’s attack on all the affluent Jewish tribes such as Qurayza and Khaybar (instead of "Gabriel’s leadership"), then he does not need to look any further than verse- 33:27. After all, the Meccans and their allies withdrew (from seize of Medina at the battle of trench) without allowing Muslims to take their wealth. So how was Muhammad going to reward his 3,000 jihadists? He needed booty (wealth) to reward his jihadis. The prophet confiscated wealth of Jews to satisfy his greedy jihadis. He was following a bad custom of winner-take-all in seventh-century Arabia. It is a pity and shame that he could not rise above this, as the prophet for all of the world, the last and the best of all the prophets!"
--

1. The Holy Qur’an, Translated by A. Yousuf Ali, Published by Amana Corporation, Brentwood, Maryland, 1983
2. Buchari Sharif, Bengali Translation by Maulana Muhammad Mustafizur Rahman, Sulemani Printers and Publishers, Dhaka, Second edition-1999
3. W. M. Watt, Muhammad: Prophet and Statesman, Oxford UP, 1961, pp. 130-31; 148-51; 166-67.
4. Ibn Ishaq, Sirat Rasul Allah (Life of Muhammad), trans. A. Guillaume, Oxford UP, 1955, pp. 363-64; 437-45.
5. Muhammad at Medina, Oxfored UP, 1956; Sayyid Abul A’La Maududi, The Meaning of the Qur’an, vol. 3.
6. Tabari, The Foundation of the Community, trans. M.V. McDonald and annotated by W. M. Watt (SUNYP, 1987), pp. 85-87; 156-61.
7. Ibn Ishaq; Tabari, The Victory of Islam, trans. M. Fishbein, vol. 8, (1997), pp. 6-7.
8. The Root of Terrorism a la Islamic style; Chapter 13: Terror Fifty-two; by Abul Kasem

FarnazMansouri,

"Again, best not to argue with your betters."

************************************************************************

Keep repeating that~! wont make it true. When did I ever deny camel jockeys?? Thats another lie. How are the Camel Jockeys relevent to this discussion anyway?

I can see Rumi and Maimonides havent made much difference to you. You still hate the religion of Rumi and his prophet.

Ok Farnaz~! I can see this is your getout clause as usual. I doubt if you can ever come up with a reply. Your views are founded upon your hatred and hence have no legs to stand upon. You're only good for your 5 minute anti islam rant. Have fun~!

Posted by: yasseryousufi
-------------
Again, best not to argue with your betters. I've posted significant evidence on the atrocity of camel racing, which you denied; on child prostitution, etc.

Racism ill becomes you.

Rumi and Maimonides. Stop wasting time.

Ok Farnaz~! I can see this is your getout clause as usual. I doubt if you can ever come up with a reply. Your views are founded upon your hatred and hence have no legs to stand upon. You're only good for your 5 minute anti islam rant. Have fun~!

Ah, yasseryousufi, you did sound awfully undergraduate: your "course work." Sweet.
Word to your unwise self for you to communicate to your fellow young gentlemen racists: Do not do battle with your betters.

Read Rumi and Maimonides, as directed, and then get back to me.

Later, when I have more time, I'll try to post again on the Qurayza Jews.

Get to your task, young sir.

ROFL~! you're a sore loser. I never used a racist word. If you're so touchy maybe you should watch what you write yourself. I got enough literary skills to lay bare all your lies. Maybe you yourself need to expand your knowldgebase. Openup your mind a bit. Stop hating people just coz there muslims.

And stop trying being a Pacifist. You certainly aren't one. Saadi and Hafiz were part of my coursework. I've read commentaries on their work in addition to reading it. But I dont go boasting around like you do. Now what else is it that you wanted to know about the Quraizah Jews.............??

yasseryousufi,

Hold your horses Farnaz~!
--------
I don't own horses, but if you will stop your endless racist provocations, develop your literary skills, and stop denying that which is readily supported with evidence, I will see if I can borrow a pony.

In the interim, you need to read much more widely about Islamic history. You need to comb through the Hadiths and get real.

First, however, I recommend Rumi, Sadia the Mystic, and Hafiz.

When you have your wits about you, summon your intellectual strength and read Maimonides, "A Guide for the Perplexed" (available on the web).

Then get back to me.

Take your time Farnaz~!

Cheers!

Yasser

The genocide of the Quraza Jews as depicted in Quoran and Hadiths was a horror difficult to imagine, providing a blueprint for future acts of terror, mass murder, rape, murder of children in front of parents, etc. This has been the practice of Arab Muslims in Sudan and in many other countries.

I have been trying to post on the Qurayza Jews rererencing both Quoran and the Hadiths, but keep getting blocked. Cannot even post link.

Interesting.

At all events, I'll try again later. Should at least be able to give Quoranic and Hadith references.

DID EUROPEAN COLONIALISM INVENT TERRORISM ?

FRENCH COLONIALISM: FROM WICKEPEDIA

The paradox of the massacres of 8 May 1945, is that when the heroic Algerian combatants returned from the fronts in Europe, Africa and elsewhere where they defended France's honour and interests ... the French administration fired on peaceful demonstrators," Bouteflika said in a speech published by state media on Sunday.

Colonial forces launched an air and ground offensive against several eastern cities, particularly Setif and Guelma, in response to anti-French riots, which killed some 100 Europeans.

The crackdown lasted several days and according to the Algerian state left 45,000 people dead. European historians put the figure at between 15,000 and 20,000.

It marks one of the darkest chapters in the history of Algeria and France, which ruled the North African country brutally from 1830 until 1962.

France's ambassador to Algeria said in February that the Setif massacre was an "inexcusable tragedy". It was the most explicit comments by the French state on the event.

When a white guy snaps and shoots up a place, the press calls it "going postal". When a Moslem does it, people call it "jihad". I'm not buying that this guy was a terrorist. He doesn't fit the pattern of one. He does, however, fit the pattern of a lone wolf that snaps and goes postal.

DID THE EUROPEAN COLONIALISM INVENT TERRORISM?

Jallianwala Bagh massacre
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The Jallianwala Bagh Massacre (Hindi: जलियांवाला बाग़ हत्याकांड جلیانوالہ باغ Jallianwala Bāġa Hatyākāṇḍ), alternatively known as the Amritsar Massacre, was named after the Jallianwala Bagh (Garden) in the northern Indian city of Amritsar where, on April 13, 1919, 90 British Indian Army soldiers under the command of Brigadier-General Reginald Dyer opened fire on an unarmed gathering of men, women and children. The firing lasted for 10 to 15 minutes, until they ran out of ammunition.[1] Official British Raj sources placed the fatalities at 379, and with 1100 wounded.[2] Civil Surgeon Dr. Smith indicated that there were 1,526 casualties.[3]

(continued from previous post~!)

After that Banu Quraizah locked themselves up in a Castle and asked Prophet Muhammad to assign an arbitrator in their case. The Arbitrator wasn't Prophet Muhammad himself but a former Jew by the name Sa'd ibn Mua'dh, whom Banu Quraizah themselves nominated. He was considered a wise old man and was on his deathbed, suffering from wounds he recieved in the battle. It was agreed that both side will surrender to the decree of the arbitrator. It was Saad who decreed that "the men should be killed, the property divided, and the women and children taken as captives" It was the prevalent culture of those times and words had to be kept. No women or children or elderly were hurt. And yes Banu Quraizah brought it upon themselves through their constant scheming and treachery against the people who had actually helped them.

So here you go, I doubt if it makes any difference to you or you'll stop hating Islam. Thats beyond me. I'll keep doing my job though, taking on your lies wherever you spew them~!

I've had this discussion with a number of reactionary Jewish people before. Let me enlighten you a bit as well. Banu Quraizah lived in Medina during the time of Prophet Muhammad. They were a branch of a bigger Jewish tribe called Banu Aws. Banu Aws had a legendary enmity with a local Arab tribe called Banu Khazraj, which had spanned generations and killed many people on both sides. When Prophet Muhammad came to Medina, he ended this generations long enmity and the two tribes started living peacefully. (This btw is from wikipedia, not an Islamic website~!) Prophet Muhammad on a number of occasions sided with Banu Quraizah and got them more leniant terms in their agreement with their rival tribe. Now all the tribes of Medina had a pact which said that in the case of an attack on Medina all tribes and people of Medina will defend Medina as one. Let me quote you an exact clause from that agreement;

"Jews having their religion and the Muslims having their religion excepting anyone who acts wrongfully and commits crime/acts treacherously/breaks an agreement, for he but slays himself and the people of his house"

Some time after that the people of Mecca attacked Medina in an effort to finish Islam once and for all. But Banu Quraizah remained indifferent and didnt came to the aid of muslims in the Battle of Badar. Prophet Muhammad punished the rival tribe of Banu Quraizah but forgave Banu Quraizah for their treachery. After that there was another war called battle of Ahad and Banu Quraizah again remained indifferent in violation of their agreement. Once again they were forgiven whilst other smaller tribes who broke the pact were punished. Then the third time, the Meccans formed a huge coalition of all the major Arab tribes against islam from as far as abyssinia and muslims were outnumbered by 10 to 1. So the muslims decided to dig a trench around Medina instead of taking on the enemy. This time Banu Quraizah went a step further, they held open negotiations with the Meccans because they were convinced Muslims would be overwhelmed this time. They even told Meccans about locations from where they could enter Medina easily. Once again their plans failed and the Meccans left after a long failed siege.

FarnazMansouri,

"A Muslim Mindset Exemplified on This Thread

Here, you see the yasseryousufi-type Muslim mindset.
"They deserved what they got." They had done nothing. What they got was genocide, parents and children murdered in front of each other, rape, selling into slavery.
One of the earliest Muslim genocides, this Quoranic one, a historical fact, one of the earliest blueprints for the genocides, the WTCs, the seizure and destruction of schools, all the terrorism that has followed for the last two thousand years.
Sacred murderers. Killers sent by the deity?
Simple murderers."

********************************************

Hold your horses Farnaz~! I guess you think you've found a booty. Something to strike with on Islam's underbelly. A catastrophe of huge proprtions all of 1500 years old. Well I hate to burst your bubble! Again! But wise men have said that a little bit of knowledge is more dangerous than no knowledge at all~! You've looked at this incident like a typical hatefilled jewish squatter. I suggest you type Banu Quraizah on wikipedia (hardly an organization that has any sympathy for muslim point of view!) and see if your 5 minutes of research teaches you something new.

(Continued~!)

No matter how you want to massage it, Islam is a religion that divides. Others do it as well. Saved or damned. In the tribe or out. But nobody has the divisiveness inherent in Islam, with admonitions on how to treat other religionists, how to tax them, how to try them in a court of law.

This divisiveness is a direct contributor to the sick mindset of people like Maj. Hasan. He was not acting as a good Muslim by the majority of Muslim adherents but Mohammed left a legacy in which his actions could easily be interpreted and self interpreted to be holy.

How large a segment of of Muslims think that his actions are justified remains unknown but similar actions by Muslims across the globe make it certain that they are not beliefs held by a tiny minority.

He gave up all that He had to come to earth in utmost humility, to live a perfectly sin-free life and to endure God’s just punishment for sin so that all who believe in Him might not have to endure God’s wrath and eternal alienation from God’s love and grace.

Posted by: RONR4 | November 7, 2009 12:08 PM
------------------------
You read my post, so you understand my position. Only the Christian god is wrathful and damning. God is all just, all merciful, all loving for Jews. Human was never subject to "eternal damnation."

This monstrous view of the deity, which has, in part, but only in part been incorporsted into Islam, accounts for two thousand years of mass murder, genocide, etc., of numerous peoples.

We now see the work of these folks' theological heirs. Mohammad was the last prophet, the final word. The last word.

JAMESCHIRICO posted: "Three faiths revere the ritual sacrifice of Abraham's child as an act that God approved. I for one believe any father that murders his innocent child is sick for any reason and man written holy books saying God approved is difficult to believe."

FARNAZ1MANSOURI1 replied: "In fairness, I have to say that only the Christian God did this, sending his Son to be tortured to death, incriminating humanity for all time."

In actuality, Abraham never sacrificed Isaac. God provided a ram trapped in a thicket to be the sacrifice. In this can be foreseen the actual work of God’s Son, Jesus Christ. He willingly came to die to save His people. He did not incriminate anyone. Rather, He redeemed those for whom He died – He took on Himself the punishment for the sins (crimes against God) of His people. His was the supreme sacrifice. He gave up all that He had to come to earth in utmost humility, to live a perfectly sin-free life and to endure God’s just punishment for sin so that all who believe in Him might not have to endure God’s wrath and eternal alienation from God’s love and grace.

Can you tell me please, who are dangerous to the United States Jews or Muslims

Posted by: crmla2fromIsrael
-----------------------------
The three most dangerous groups in the United States are, in order, the Amish, the Buddhists, and the Jews.

CHILD HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES

If you have read this thread, you must have some idea of the nations with which we are dealing. Throughout the Middle East, the sport of camel racing is enabled by the theft, that is kidnapping of little boys, or their purchase from their families by lowlife profiteers. These boys are generally about eight years old. (Scroll down for more an article I posted a few hours ago.)

These little boys are kept for a few years, while they are groomed to race camels. After their season is ended, they may be sold for prostitution or other labor, killed, or, in the best case scenario, returned to their countries, possibly to their homes.
----------------------
Child prostitution: There are two hundred thousand female child prostitutes in Bangaladesh, alone. The number of child male prostitutes has not yet been determined.

Child prostitution is a thriving industry in Asia and the Middle East, outside of Israel. Children are sold by their parents or kidnapped by pimps. The number of Syrian child prostitutes has declined as both male and female child prostitutes continue to be imported from Iraq. Men from all over the Middle East go to Damascus to have sex with these children. I have seen it.
----------------------------
SLAVERY AND CHRISTIANS IN MUSLIM NATIONS
There is outright slavery in the form of bonded labor in several Muslim countries, including Pakistan.

In addition, Pakistani and Bangaladeshi are forced to clean the streets and the sewers with their FINGERS. They are subject to rape, beatings, at a moment's notice. These three million CHRISTIANS are kept illiterate, and die young from one disease after another. THESE ENSLAVED CHRISTIANS pass on their condition from one generation to the next.
'''''''''''''''''''
In Muslim countries, Christians are considered idolaters, fornicators, drunkards, "gossipers." They are hated for their imperialism, their oil-mongering, and what is considered to be their "indulgences."

They are thought to be categorically inferior to Muslims.

A Muslim Mindset Exemplified on This Thread

Banu Quraizah deserved what they got. They had a pact with muslims of Medina. They broke their pact and sided with the Kuffar's of Mecca in the Battle of Trench to eliminate Islam. Their punishment was inline with the customs of that time. It wasn't because they were Jewish~!

Posted by: yasseryousufi
---------------------------
Here, you see the yasseryousufi-type Muslim mindset.

"They deserved what they got." They had done nothing. What they got was genocide, parents and children murdered in front of each other, rape, selling into slavery.

One of the earliest Muslim genocides, this Quoranic one, a historical fact, one of the earliest blueprints for the genocides, the WTCs, the seizure and destruction of schools, all the terrorism that has followed for the last two thousand years.
Sacred murderers. Killers sent by the deity?

Simple murderers.

I see the number of rational minds is few here. Until religion fades from human life experience, crazy thinking will prevail. We keep it at bay somewhat well here in the U.S., but it still rages in the most violent parts of the world.

For now, I see the only solution is to try to ignore and exclude the crazies from our global interaction, and to constantly be on the watch both domestically and elsewhere. Finally, many may atom bombs must be aimed at all these countries, along with the express intent on destroying the entire planet if they sen one our way. This is the only band aid until we all reject religious foolishness.

The end

Eboo Patel once more constructs a straw man and then pummels it to death. The issue is not whether Islam encourages or justifies murder. The issue is this: first, religion per se encourages a murderous mentality. Second, the more separated a religion becomes from reality, the more fanaticism it nurtures among its adherents. So, by these criteria, what do we have at Fort Stewart?

-- A person deep in the grip of religious fervor.
-- The religion that has entrapped his mind is the one that most rejects modernity. Islam remains locked in a medieval mindset, unable to reach accommodation with the modern world.

Just a few of the facts that support the above conclusion:

-- Islam treats women little better than chattel
-- Islam does not recognize the idea of pluralism or the equality of other religions. The official, mainstream doctrine of Islam is that other religions must be liquidated. How far is that from justifying the liquidation of individual adherents of any of those other religions?
-- In its entire history, Islam has never nurtured democracy, human rights, or freedom of expression anywhere in its native soil. Do you think that it is just a coincidence that the most repressive and non-democratic regimes on earth are located in the Muslim world? That the largest bloc of countries that reject even a semblance of democracy are Muslims? That Muslim countries are the only ones on this planet still ruled by kings, queens, and princes?

Patel is engaging in deliberate misrepresentation when he tries to separate the killer's acts from his religion.

Xenophobia and bigotry give rise to the strongest and angriest of emotions which often lead to violence. Those feelings preclude rational, calm thought.

America's feelings towards Moslems have often been uncompromising and vicious. They are based on the unsupported assumption that Moslems want to bring down the US and that they are necessarily terrorists.

In the 1960s, similar feelings were directed towards black people when they wanted to ride in the front of the bus, vote and otherwise have equal rights. America's KKK (a brutal, unintelligent and cowardly organisation) attacked black people because they were different.

My neighbours are Moslems and they are decent people.

You will know a tree by its fruit. The fruit of Islam is revealed primarily in the countries where it is the predominant world view. Judge for yourself, is there freedom of conscience in Muslim countries? Or rather imprisonment and fear for those who practice other religions? The answer is obvious.

crmla2fromIsrael,

More than 10,000 Muslims serve the United States Army, prepared to give the ultimate sacrifice, like Kareem Rashad Sultan Muhammad who was cited by Colin Powell in his nomination speech of Barack Obama. There was a muslim guy who gave his life immidiately after the 9/11 attack trying to save his fellow americans.

If the idea is to pick random examples and create hatred for an already marginalized people, it is regretable indeed specially coming from a Jewish woman. If that be the case how do you justify Israel torpedoing and firing at a US vessel for several hours eventually drowining it killing 31 US Sailors and wounding dozens of others? Keeping in mind the staunch support US gives Israel however grave its crimes maybe. Why does Israel have the need to put spies in American secret facilities? Where do the loyalties of AIPAC blackmailers really lie? Its not with America, we all know that.

no normal human being can support this kind of killing of innocent people.. and this is not a rational thinking that we link such kind of violent actions of a person link to whole religion or to whole group of people..

The conditions which army men are facing in Iraq, AFghanistan and any where else they always come back to home with many mental problems, we should have focus on the reasons which can force some one for such kind of violance any time any where...

A reminder

A 24 years old Ngibolla Zazi an Afghan immigrant, planned a terrorist act by a mass destruction weapons, in New York City. On September 29, he was prosecuted and claimed not guilty. It's a serious case. In his personal computer were find a planning that related to triacetone triperoxide, peroxyacetone(TATP,). It is an explosive was used in London Underground trainas attack .

According to the indictment, he and other partners,bought large quantities of explosive components, and prepared the explosives In Colorado's hotel. On September 9 he went from Coloradoto to New York. The police suspected him for carrying the explosive material to attack on 11 September anniversary. But surprisingly, he go back. it become a clear, that the Imam's Queens, was an informer of the police and warned him that the police exceeded his trace. so he hurried to return. If this attack was carried out in a crowded place,it would hurt hundreds of people.

On September 23, Michael Finton an American prisoner who was converted to Islam in prison and then went to Saudi Arabia. Hi was prosecuted for trying to blow up the federal building in Springfield, Alinoi. Finton parked a truck with a ton of explosives in front of the building, before get caught. He tried to activate the bomb using his cell phone, but fortunately , he was failed. Olso he planned to kidnap and murder a congressman.

A Jordanian from Palestinian origin, was prosecuted on the intent to blow up a skyscraper in Dallas.

Three Muslim men were prosecuted in North Carolina for planning to attack a Marines basis which is located in the United States.

Can you tell me please, who are dangerous to the United States Jews or Muslims

Banu Quraizah deserved what they got. They had a pact with muslims of Medina. They broke their pact and sided with the Kuffar's of Mecca in the Battle of Trench to eliminate Islam. Their punishment was inline with the customs of that time. It wasn't because they were Jewish~!

What Patel says is well and good. The fact is that this murderer allegedly was yelling Alluhah Akhbar - something that we have heard too many times by other murderers.

Until I see 3 million Muslims marching in the streets carrying signs that read "Not in my name", I will be totally unconvinced.

The world will be so much more at peace when education spreads and religion is finally abrogated.

How can a person with any level of education read any book of faith and not see the inconsistencies, holes, and brainwashing nature of it all? Do you think miracles only happened then, or because people had such a small world view, limited by information and education, believed anything that a person in a position of religious authority told them?

Religion feeds on the poor of knowledge, and is reviled by the rich in history.

: crmla2fromIsrael,

Thank you for mentioning the Banu Qurayza. I have raised this atrocity not only on this thread but on others on OnFaith. Somehow, it doesn't seem to sink in that this was an actual historic event.

A couple of other points: Quoran is virulently antiChristian. Moreover, it explicitly states that any who believe Jesus was the son of God are damned forever.

Contemporary Muslims see Christians as idolatrous. Tolerant and secular Muslims don't let this interfere with befriending Christians, but statues are not their thing. Interestingly, they seem to have more tolerance for Hindu statues than for Christian.

Americans by this time understand that Islam is evil to human society and America is offering them education seats,green cards,business, jobs in army also only to be killed by them.some may say it is aginest Islam etc, only to cover up Muslim misdeeds.Muslims preach and practice violence.it is matter of record in past and in present in all countries.wake up America.at least now try to know who is your friend or foe.pl don't allow them in your system other wise you are gone gone.understand them

Allow me to give you a brief "Islam " The first thing you need to know about Islam is the importance of the book of the Quran. The Quran is thought ot be Allah's personal word, revealed by an angel to Mohammed, the prophet. This is where the trouble starts. Every word in the Quran is Allah's word and, therefore, not open to discus-sion or interpretation. It is valid for every Muslim and for all times. Therefore, there is no such a thing as moderate Islam. Sure, there are a lot of moderate Muslims. But a moderate Islam is non-existent.

The Quran calls for hatred, violence, submission, murder, and terror-ism. The Quran calls for Muslims to kill non-Muslims, to terrorize non-Muslims and to fulfill their duty to wage war: vio-lent jihad. Jihad is a duty for every Muslim, Islam is to rule the world by the sword.

The Quran is clearly anti-Semitic, describing Jews as monkeys and pigs..

The second thing you need to know is the importance of Mohammed the prophet. His behavior is an example to all Muslims and cannot be criticized. Now, if Mohammed had been a man of peace, let us say like Ghandi and Mother Theresa wrapped in one, there would be no problem. But Mohammed was a warlord, a mass murderer, a pedo-phile, and had several marriages at the same time. Islamic tradition tells us how he fought in battles, how he had his enemies murdered and even had prisoners of war executed. Mohammed himself slaughtered the Jewish tribe of Banu Qur-ayza. He advised on matters of slavery, but never advised to liberate slaves. Islam has no other morality than the advance-ment of Islam. If it is good for Islam, it is good. If it is bad for Islam, it is bad. There is no gray area or other side.

The Quran, as Allah's own word and Mohammed as the perfect man are the two most important facets of Islam. Let no one fool you about Islam being a religion. Sure, it has a god, and a here-after, and 72 virgins. But in its essence Islam is a political ideology. It is a system that lays down detailed rules for society and the life of every person. Islam wants to dictate every aspect of life. Islam means submission. Islam is not compatible with freedom and demo-cracy, because what it strives for is sharia. If you want to compare Islam to anything, compare it to communism or national-socialism, these are all totalitarian ideologies.

This is what you need to know about Islam, in order to understand what is going on in Europe. For millions of Muslims the Quran and the life of Mohammed are not 14 centuries old, but are an everyday reality, an ideal, that guide every aspect of their lives. Now you know why Winston Churchill called Islam the most retrograde force in the world, and why he compared Mein Kampf to the Quran.

Sanja,

"ketman"

Apt. May I ask how you came upon this word? I am Iranian, but I haven't heard it much among Americans. The truth of Patel slips out in his essays from time to time. Frankly, I'm not sure he's aware of his own....I don't quite know what to call it.

My God is better then your God, nah nah nah. This yellow brick religious road we are traveling down is getting mighty red, blood red.

Why all of terror acts are carried out by Muslims. The writer is distorts the things. In Islam there is no a compassion and mercy for Non-Muslim, Muhammad was a warlord who murdered Jews.

95% of contemporary Muslims are exposed to anti-Semitic teachings. every Muslim learns chapters from the Quran that those who have incurred divine wrath are the Jews, and those who are astray are Christians. What is more problematic is that the average person learns this chapter and its interpretation between the ages of 5-8. And we know that things learned at this stage of life become ingrained, almost to the point of being in one's DNA.

When the shahid meets his Maker, all his sins are forgiven from the first gush of blood. He is exempted from the torments of the grave; he sees his place in Paradise, he is shielded from the great shock, and marries 72 Dark Eyed. He is a heavenly advocate for 70 members of his family, on his head is placed a crown of honor, one stone of which is worth more than all there is in this world.

Three faiths revere the ritual sacrifice of Abraham's child as an act that God approved. I for one believe any father that murders his innocent child is sick for any reason and man written holy books saying God approved is difficult to believe.

Posted by: jameschirico |
-----------------------------
In fairness, I have to say that only the Christian God did this, sending his Son to be tortured to death, incriminating humanity for all time.
------------------------
In Tanakh, Isaac is thirty-five years old. The Binding was meant to end human sacrifice forever.

Three faiths revere the ritual sacrifice of Abraham's child as an act that God approved. I for one believe any father that murders his innocent child is sick for any reason and man written holy books saying God approved is difficult to believe.

Patel,

You would do a favor to God, individuals that are also Americans, individuals that are also Muslims etc, if you stop writing articles. You do not have what it takes at any level, and your pathetic and profitable "ketman" attitude is making me sick to my stomac. Go around, spread brotherly love, hug, peace out, whatever you do for living, just zip it.
S

It really is wrong to blame an entire group for the act of one of its members. Google Kristallnacht to see how the Nazi government attacked all the German Jews on the basis of the act of a French Jew.
----------------
Martial,

I understand your point, and I empathize. However, the case in question was an excuse as we all know.

Further, since, except for Israel, the Middle East has become nearly Judenrein, given the widespread circulation of the "Protocols" throughout the region, state-sponsored antisemtism in newspapers, TV, etc., given the anti-Jewish racist filth all over Muslim web sites, you might find a group other than Js for your analogies.

----------------------------------------
When I was a girl, the Iranian Revolutionary Guard dragged our family friend Ismael out of our house, killing him while placing him under arrest. HIs blood spattered on my clothes.

So would the actions of Irish Catholic terrorists represent:

1. All Irish people?
2. All Catholics?
3. All Christians?

What about Koreans who resisted Japanese colonial rule between 1910 and 1945? Would they have been terrorists too? Was it because of...Christianity? Confucianism? Buddhism? Shamanism? Or John Brown, who killed five people in 1856 and another 7 in 1859--did he have a violent nature because he was a Christian?

The UAE and Qatar have signed off on the kidnapping and "purchasing" of young boys for employment in camel racing. Otherwise, it is still going on all over the Middle East, and it is an absolute horror.
This is easily further researched via google (camel jockeys children human rights). YOu might also visit UNICEF. These boys are bought or kidnapped from the poorest of Muslim countries, Bengaladesh, Pakistan, etc.

Some are sold to pimps for prostitution after they are deemed unfit for their current slave positions. Some live and return home.

--------------------------------------
Children Formerly Involved in Camel Racing
© UNICEF/PAKA/Jim Stipe
Formerly involved in camel racing, Hameed Musa (first from left) is a grade I student in the village school

United Arab Emirates and United Nations Children’s Fund Rehabilitation Programme for Children Formerly Involved in Camel Racing (CICR)

On May 7, 2005, the Government of the United Arab Emirates (UAE) and the United Nations Children’s Fund (UNICEF) signed a ground breaking agreement to return children formerly employed as camel jockeys to their countries of origin and reintegrate them into their communities. Under the programme, more than 1,077 children from Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sudan, Mauritania and Eritrea received services at community centres and were repatriated.

By June 2007, 695 children have been repatriated to Pakistan out of which 334 have returned through the UAE-UNICEF Repatriation Programme while 361 came back through their own arrangements.

Second Phase of the UAE-UNICEF Rehabilitation Programme

In a meeting held in Abu Dhabi in April 2007, the UAE has committed itself to fully fund a second phase of the repatriation programme, which is intended to help not only those repatriated under the first phase, but also those who returned to their countries outside the programme.

continues

Continued
The project will be implemented at the federal, provincial and district levels in Pakistan. At the provincial and federal levels, the project will strengthen the capacity of relevant government authorities to coordinate and monitor the issues associated with all forms of child trafficking in Pakistan and help develop policies and strategies that will support and scale up the integrated community-based development initiative models to other districts for preventing child trafficking.

At the district level, it will continue support for social reintegration and protection of the repatriated children including those who may be returning in the future. Seven Union Councils of Rahim Yar Khan District in the Punjab Province and two Union Councils of Larkana District in the Sindh Province, from where the majority of camel jockey children come from, have been selected for this project. The UAE-UNICEF Repatriation Programme will start in the province of Sindh in June 2007.
© UNICEF/PAKA/Jim Stipe
Shan, Zulfiqar and Ehsan raced camels in the UAE for many years before their repatriation.

The rehabilitation process of returned children is being closely monitored by the Child Protection and Welfare Bureau (CPWB), Government of the Punjab, and UNICEF. CPWB staff regularly visits their families and schools/vocational centres to get an update on their progress. Youth clubs and community organizations have been formed to help these children re-integrate into their communities.

UNICEF is providing technical support to the UAE Government and the CPWB for the repatriation and rehabilitation of the camel jockey children. With funds provided by the UAE government, a conditional cash grant of 600 Pak. Rupees (UAE Dirham 37, US $10) is given to every child for education provided he has an 80 per cent attendance in school or at a vocational training centre. A bicycle has also been given to every repatriated child.

Click the links below to read human interest stories of Children Formerly Involved in Camel Racing (CICR):

Asjad started racing camels when he was only four (2.94 MB pdf)

Hameed Musa raced camels for eight years (2.97 MB pdf)

Zufliqar loves going to school and would never like to race camels again (3.42 MB pdf)

Formerly involved in camel racing, brothers Shan and Ehsan are bright students (2.94MB pdf)

True, Hasan is not a true Muslim. But then, neither is Hamas, Hezbollah, al-Qaeda, Osama bin Laden, Islamic Jihad, Ahmadinejad, Qaddafi, the 9-11 hijackers and a whole bunch of others, but I don't hear mainstream Muslims condemning them. I'm starting to get a little fed up with extremists who claim to be peaceful, then they play the victim after one of their own goes out and murders people in the name of their god.

RWHEELER1 said it PERFECTLY:
"An underlying problem here is that we are a diverse, pluralistic society, and our many religions clash. The difficulties arise when members of various faiths attempt to impose their beliefs and rules not just on their own faithful congregations, but on everyone else. It is fine for Catholic bishops to condemn abortion and tell their members not to do it. The difficulty comes when the bishops wish to apply their teachings to others who disagree, or impose their will by force of law on others. It is fine for mullahs to insist that Muslims obey Muslim moral law and codes of conduct, or Sharia; the problem arises when they want to impose it on everyone else. The only way multicultural societies can survive is for each faith to impose its strictures on its own faithful, and not upon others who have different views. I have the sense that some clerics are so certain of the virtue of their views that they are not content to preach to their congregations; they want to tell the whole world what to do. And that is what can inspires followers to engage in mayhem."

Have you ever seen a report that says this type of action is what the Muslim religion is all about? Stereotypes get made for a reason...if the real muslims do not like what a select few are doing, they need to make them stop! It is time for the Muslim community across the world to fight themselves if they are truly against what the terrorists stand for.

I don't understand some of these radical muslims. If they so truly believe their scriptures they must know that for them an eye for an eye and a brother for a brother would end up with them losing. Militarily they are no match. Only political correctness keeps us in check. I know some will say we can't win. I contend we have put on kid gloves and if those gloves come off, those on the recieving end will be very sad.

Martial,

"Why not check the ratio of Muslims to Jews in our prisons?"

Why dont you help me out? lets hear that ratio. I do know muslims generally have better jobs and higher standard of living than average americans~!

"So can I also ask you explain why the 5 million Iraqi children had to die because of the US sponsored embargoes? and add to that another million who died in the war fought on a pack of lies? What about the thousands dead in Afghanistan? what about the Bosnian Muslims? Chechens? Kashmiris? Palestinians? Mindanao? Again, spare us the moral high ground crap. If we were to take an eye for eye, you guys would have been blown up 10 times over~!

Posted by: yasseryousufi"

Stop sniveling for your precious Chechens, Bosniaks, Kashmiris, and now Mindanao. The world is quickly tiring of the lies and apologetic analogies that Salafists like you are so fond of making. If it were actually an eye for an eye, there would be no Muslims left alive that were not at forced labor.

FarnazMansouri1,

"yasseryousufi,
Isn't it time to discuss camel racing?"

Dont you get tired of this done to death joke? How's your organ harvesting buisness going in Newyork btw? I heard those of Palestinian children give the best return.

Eboo Patel is not a Muslim. He's a Hindu. Hindu children are taught from birth to hate Muslimas and kill them whenever possible. He has no right and no ability to say who is a Muslim and who is not.

FarnazMansouri,

You're obviously a closed minded hard nut, So its only muslim fighting Jews, Christians, Hindus etc?? Common sense tells us that people who live side by side often develop differences some of which are framed by religous preferences as well. So we have Hindus wiping out whole villages of Christians and Muslims in India. Christians killing their fellow Christians and Jews in Europe and Africa.

So one guy basically snapped and took down his co-workers with him. It wouldn't even have been news in america coz it happens so often. Yours is a violent society. People do carry guns along with them at all times and when they are thinking about taking their own lives the more violent ones tend to take others with them. The only reason this is being blown out of proportions is because this guy happened to be a Muslim. I guess one cant argue with the cynics~! They can keep hating all they want. reasonable people know religion has nothing to do with this.

Let's get down to basics here. Islam is NOT a religion, it's a murderous CULT. Mohammed came crashing out of the desert, probably strung out on hashhish, almost 7 centuries after the birth of Christ. He took total control of tribes who had no alternative. And, it's gotten worse ever since. If you think these people have Free Will, then you haven't witnessed the Hajj. The word "assassin" derives from hashhish. The Whirling Dervishes" were not the product of the Vatican, but of Islam and lots of hashhish. The "Mad Mullahs" were not Buddhists, but Islamists. Islam is tribal madness. I always remember one soldier in Afghanistan saying we were "going to bomb them up to the 8th century". Islam twists and turns in its attempt for legitimacy by claiming Abraham as its "father". How? That's the claim that has everyone laughing. I think Abraham pre-dated Mohammed by 3,000 years. I doubt that Muslims can ever enter the Modern World. They know that. That's why they want to destroy it.

walter-in-fallschurch,

"you can't really think this?! jews commit 10 times the moral atrocities of muslims?!"

Well Im sorry, I should have said 100 times. Just go and check the ratio of innocent women and children Israel has killed in Palestine wrt to similar atrocities committed by the Palestinians~!

POSTED BY: YASSERYOUSUFI | NOVEMBER 7, 2009 12:28 AM
REPORT OFFENSIVE COMMENT

__________

Why not check the ratio of Muslims to Jews in our prisons?

We don't know much about the major idiot. But if a group keeps saying we are not responsible for the actions of the few, soon you get a Nazi takeover. Then people say, we didn't know it was going to get that bad. Eventually the group has to take responsibility for the individual. Every Friday in mosque the muslims learn that god hates non believers, etc. Every sunday christians learn that god hates the egyptians an idolators. Some day, these people will learn to hate a hateful god and stop reading their books worshiping a god of hate. But alas, they keep rationalizing, it wasn't us so the fact that it was done in our name is not my responsibility. And you get major idiots killing young people volunteering to help their country.

It is time to have no proxy saviors, no last prophets, no books between you and god.

harium

POSTED BY: NAVIN1 | NOVEMBER 6, 2009 8:51 PM

____________

Father Coughlin did the same thing in the US, talking about the Jewish mass murder of millions of Christians! You can read Father Coughlin's filth in his book "Am I an antisemite?", available free on the internet.

Let's not repeat such acts in the name of protecting America. It is beneath those of us who love this country and the freedoms for which she stands.

walter-in-fallschurch,

"you can't really think this?! jews commit 10 times the moral atrocities of muslims?!"

Well Im sorry, I should have said 100 times. Just go and check the ratio of innocent women and children Israel has killed in Palestine wrt to similar atrocities committed by the Palestinians~!

The news is dominated nearly every day by Islamic terrorism in one corner of the world or another.

Wake up.

It really is wrong to blame an entire group for the act of one of its members. Google Kristallnacht to see how the Nazi government attacked all the German Jews on the basis of the act of a French Jew.

Navin1 - I don't know what Church you've ever gone to, but in my long life I've never heard any references to Egyptians. Think you've been seeing too many movies.

Eboo the great obfuscator writes:
"Killers do not deserve the honor of a religious label"
corollary: Islam does not deserve the honor of being called a religion.

Islam is based on the Koran, not Eboo Patel's identity crisis.
Koran chaper 9 verse 5:
"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and kill the nonbelievers wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem."

What's scary is the similarities between apologists for Islam and terrorism like Eboo Patel and Major Hasan. Like Eboo, Hasan also pretended to be an American who wanted to serve the community while being a true Muslim. Unfortuantely, Islam = violence; read the Koran and read history.

PKHenry,

Not completely up to date. Twenty were just killed in Peshawar, seven more in Philippines.

cbccard - thank you.

to oracle2world - oh, these are ducks for sure. But, I like ducks, so why don't we call them what they really are - MONSTERS. Aside from the "warm and fuzzy" Taliban who cut off hands and force women into blue tents, I will never forget Al Qaeda cutting off the head of Daniel Pearl with a penknife. I've lived a long time. There are 2 victims I'll never forget - Daniel Pearl and "Kiki" Camerana. Check out the alliance between these Islamists and the drug cartels.

" But a Muslim did ot do this " Mr. Patel wrote... Thanks sir. I had read that the guy was a Muslim. I think you might want to let the media know they are incorrect. They may need to retract their stories. Better call the AP and get that out ASAP! Breaking story! Wow wait till I tell my family and frienda and coworkers that they were mistaken.

PK Henry.... There are Millions on Muslims.. To take these few incidents attributed them to a whole religion is clearly racist in many peoples minds. Political correctness gone heywire.

you can find bad and good examples of people in every race, religion, political party. so one is forced to look at the group's founding/founder and its source of authority (scriptures) to understand its intent.

in light of muhammad's life, how can one argue that islam is a peaceful religion?

also, how do these suras seem peaceful?

"....Kill those who join other gods with Allah wherever you find them; besiege them, seize them, lay in wait for them with every kind of ambush...."(Sura 9:5).

"When you encounter the unbelievers, strike off their heads, until ye have made a great slaughter among them...."(Sura 47:4).

"....Make war upon such of those to whom the Scriptures have been given as believe not in Allah, or in the Last Day, and who forbid not what Allah and His Apostle have forbidden....until they pay tribute..." (Sura 9:29).

jesus said to love your enemy and he gave up his life willingly.
muhammad said to kill your enemy and took the lives of others forcefully. i don't understand how people can argue islam is peaceful. it seems like pure ignorance to me.

Date Country City Killed Injured Description
2009.11.06 Somalia Merca 1 0 A 33-year-old man is brutally stoned to death for adultery. The execution takes about seven minutes.
2009.11.05 USA Ft. Hood, TX 13 31 A Muslim psychiatrist yelling 'Allah Akbar' murders thirteen unarmed U.S. soldiers on their base in Texas.
2009.11.05 Philippines Zamboanga 2 8 Two people are killed when suspected Islamists fire into a commuter bus.
2009.11.04 Pakistan Bajaur 2 2 Two female schoolteachers are brutally shot to death by Taliban extremists.
2009.11.03 Yemen Hadramut 8 0 al-Qadea militants open fire on a vehicle, machine-gunning eight people to death.
2009.11.03 Afghanistan Helmand 5 8 A Taliban gunmen disguised as a policeman suddenly opens fire at a police base, killing five British soldiers in cold blood.
2009.11.03 Saudi Arabia Jazan 1 0 Islamic rebels gun down a security officer "with the support and assistance of Allah."
2009.11.03 Iraq Abu Ghraib 3 0 Mujahid bombers wipe out a family of three, including a girl.
2009.11.02 Pakistan Rawalpindi 36 63 Fundamentalists set off a massive bomb near a line of people outside a bank, putting down at least thirty-five.
2009.11.02 Pakistan Lahore 0 25 Twenty-five people are injured when a suicide bomber detonates along a city street.
2009.11.02 Thailand Yala 2 0 Two men riding in a pickup truck are shot to death by a terrorist disguised in a burka.
2009.11.02 Thailand Yala 2 0 Two men are killed in a Religion of Peace drive-by.
2009.11.02 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 Islamists break into a house and murder a villager.
2009.11.02 USA Glendale, AZ 1 1 A woman dies from injuries suffered when her father runs her down with a car for being too 'Westernized.'
2009.11.02 Thailand Pattani 2 0 Two security personnel are gunned down by Muslim rebels in separate attacks.
2009.11.02 Iraq Khanaqin 2 0 A man and his son are gunned down by Muslim terrorists.
2009.11.01 Philippines Banisilan 1 2 Moro Islamists ambush a car carrying civilians, shooting at least one to death.
2009.11.01 Iraq Mussayab 9 38 Jihadis rig a bicycle with explosives, then set it off in a market, killing at least nine innocents.
2009.11.01 Iraq Ramadi 3 5 A Fedayeen suicide bomber takes down three Iraqis.
2009.11.01 Somalia Lascanood 5 4 Suspected Shabaab radicals blow up a car with five people inside.
2009.11.01 India Srinagar 2 0 Islamists murder two traffic cops in a hit-and-run surprise attack at an intersection.
2009.11.01 Iraq Karbala 3 15 Terrorists plant a bomb on a bus that leaves three people dead.
2009.11.01 Dagestan Bavtugai 1 0 A local mosque official is assassinated by extremists.

to rwheeler 1 .... when was the last time the Catholic Bishops or Baptist Ministers or Buddhists took out their "cop killer" guns and blew away 13 innocent lives? Just like blowing out candles. I wonder where their souls went in the Universe? Of course, you don't believe in souls. But, if you can not differentiate mass murder from "social" arguments, then you need serious help.

What Major Hasan did was horrific and inexcusable. Other Muslims have done horrific things. So have Christians and followers of every other religion. Atheists and other nonreligious people have also committed their share of horrific deeds.

Muslims and followers of every other religion and of no religion have also acted with tremendous compassion and courage. We need to look beyond the labels and see the people.

I'm Italian and Argentine descendant, come to this Country with a student visa. I will die for it, if allowed to. Since I came here, I'm struggling for getting the visas for me and my family. Why US give papers to such terrorists?? can I prove my loyalty to US??? please give me a M16, and a green card and for patriotism will take down muslims terrorist for pleasure , any part in the world. Advice to US Military: you are in war with "religion" terrorist, so kick all Muslims in Army, or expel them for the country, or force to return to their lands so they can blame their own kind for that. Never in human history I saw a a religion so evil as this crazy wackos muslims are.

Patel is a Hindu name. So, this whole thing is a bit confusing. But, permit me to state something so fundamental to all people --- Irish Catholics, black Southern Baptists, Chinese Taoist or even atheists are not careening around the World committing JIHAD. Look at a World Map. Wherever you see blood and genocide, you will find Islamists. This WILL to destroy has NO JUSTIFICATION. Ask the Lost Boys of the Sudan. What "religion" would name a mountain range HINDU KUSH - killer of Hindu? As long as Muslims try to excuse these monstrosities, they will be suspect throughout the World - viewed correctly as psychopaths and rogues.

Let me see Whites, Blacks and Latino have had someone in their race who has committed horrific acts....

Muslim-America -

Welcome to the Country of Bigotry. If you are a darker race that commits a crime...Your whole race will be label as such...

However, if you are of a "lighter pale" race and a crime is committed you get to say "I am shocked he was quiet and nice, we never have crime in this community"....blah blah blah....Bulls#it!

WELCOME TO THE LAND OF THE FREE (?)

As a man is taught reason, thus he shall reason.
As a man thinks, thus he shall do
Similar to other terrorists, this Muslim man acted as a terrorist. He is a terrorist.

Where is my comment?
How long does it take to be posted?

zebra4, you siad,
"You say "some people". Was it on page 36 of NY Times or page 48 of WP? Sorry, I missed it."

jeez...you must have been trying to avoid it. here, for instance: http://jdallen.org/news/christian-terrorist-attempts-car-bombing-in-iowa/

and, heck, there's even an encyclopedia for christian terrorism in the u.s....

http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Christian_terrorism_-_Christian_terrorism_in_the_United_States/id/4923513

I know more then you know.Please look at your own guys before you preach anyone. Why is islam producing so many terrorists?..everywhere in the world..are they being harrased everywhere in the world. you want to know why?.because they follow Quran, which basically is the root of all the problems.
It is historically proven fact..Muslims have always betrayed the country they have lived in. World is sick of ISLAM.

Posted by: vikaspriyanka
***************************************************************

Any one who clains to be "Mr know it all" has to be childish with an I.Q. of 34.

I have an amusing episode for you.

A man advertised to sell his used encyclopedia in a news paper. He wrote,"I don't need it, the new wife knows it all".

What fresh b********** is this? If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it is a duck.

Islam starts out with "kill all the infidels" and kind of goes downhill from there.

Muslims are loyal to Islam, period. National boundaries hold little interest for them.

An underlying problem here is that we are a diverse, pluralistic society, and our many religions clash. The difficulties arise when members of various faiths attempt to impose their beliefs and rules not just on their own faithful congregations, but on everyone else. It is fine for Catholic bishops to condemn abortion and tell their members not to do it. The difficulty comes when the bishops wish to apply their teachings to others who disagree, or impose their will by force of law on others. It is fine for mullahs to insist that Muslims obey Muslim moral law and codes of conduct, or Sharia; the problem arises when they want to impose it on everyone else. The only way multicultural societies can survive is for each faith to impose its strictures on its own faithful, and not upon others who have different views. I have the sense that some clerics are so certain of the virtue of their views that they are not content to preach to their congregations; they want to tell the whole world what to do. And that is what can inspires followers to engage in mayhem.

Eboo Pastel wasted no time in turning this into a discussion about how unfairly all of Islam is treated. And it is exactly those kinds of sentiments that breed the resentments that lead to this kind of violence.

some people did, RIGHTLY, call the religiously-motivated abortion clinic bombers "christian terrorists".
the difference between the "crazy christian killers" and the "crazy muslim killers" is the sheer numbers. EVERY DAY we hear of some "allahu akbar" yelling killer.
Posted by: walter-in-fallschurch |
**************************************************************

You say "some people". Was it on page 36 of NY Times or page 48 of WP? Sorry, I missed it.

I remember during the primary season of 2008 election, Ron Paul, the libertarian candidate raised important questions no other Republican candidate bothered to respond to. Two of them were: (1) Why do we have to bail out large corporations with borrowed money and (2) Why do we have to have 164 bases in foreign countries? Don't they cost money and add on to our deficit and debt problem? He also said that why do we have to go to countries with our armies in the Middle East? He emphasized that that was the heart of the problem. Of course, I paraphrased these questions.

By the way, I am not a libertarian.

A key quote from the author "In Islam, MERCY is a deeply cherished value - the most senior Muslim scholar in the WEST says it is actually the central value of the tradition."
datdamwuf2
Emphasis added is mine, only a very few of the holy men say this and only those who live in places such as the US. But interesting to me is that the author doesn't say that preserving human life, or respect for all is paramount, he says MERCY. I would be interested in an interpretation of what mercy means to a devout Muslim...
---------------
This is an excellent question. I believe I could provide a half-way decent answer, but an observant Muslim would give a far better one, surely.

Can someone address this?

Lots of experts, no solutions. The problem started when Ishmael made fun of Isaac.

"In Isaac shall thy seed be called."

vikaspriyanka :

Did you know that Hindus of Gujarat committed genocide of Muslims in 2002? And they destroyed homes and businesses of Muslims amounting to millions of dollars?

Did you know that Hindus of India are known for urine drining, painting homes with cow dung paste, painting swastikas in their homes and temples, burning brides alive for the sake of dowry, burning alive widows in the name of sati, and practicing caste discrimination?

Did you know that the Maharashtrians (State) want to expell all non-Maharashtrians? And this evil concept is spreading now to other states?

Before you blame Christianity, Judaism, or Islam, I say to you: PHYSICIAN HEAL THYSELF!

Christians are ignorant and they are sometimes still violent (see killing Dr. Tiller, for those who say religion is not mentioned if the perpetrator is Christian, here is exhibit one that denies that). Christians also often still treat women unequally but they have improved a great deal on that count also.

Muslims are ignorant and often violent (see killing and burning because of cartoons of the prophet as exhibit one), and treat women like slaves (see 11 year old children married to old men). Some modernized Muslims have improved and aren't any worse than Christians but many "devout" Muslims in all parts of the world are not modernized.

A key quote from the author "In Islam, MERCY is a deeply cherished value - the most senior Muslim scholar in the WEST says it is actually the central value of the tradition."

Emphasis added is mine, only a very few of the holy men say this and only those who live in places such as the US. But interesting to me is that the author doesn't say that preserving human life, or respect for all is paramount, he says MERCY. I would be interested in an interpretation of what mercy means to a devout Muslim...

What makes your Islamic beliefs and interpretations more valid than his? Could he not quote passages from the Koran? Could he not justify his acts, even if those justifications seem absurd to us?

Major Hasan said that he considered himself a Muslim before an American. His family said he's been a practicing Muslim his entire life. He said that he could never fight against a fellow Muslim. Question: Why did he join the military? Did he think he was going to have the luxury of picking his enemies? And, if his murderous rampage had nothing to do with his religion, why did he post jihadist messages on line and scream "Allah Akbar" while shooting more than 40 unarmed fellow soldiers with two guns? This man is clearly a terrorist and clearly a Muslim. No amount of PC baloney can obscure these essential facts.

If I hear one more person repeat the lie that Islam is a religion of peace and love, I'll throw up.

Our brave men got killed by a Muslim right here on American Soil. I cannot believe this.
American forces have gone to these Iraq and Afganistan to help them flush out bad buys and in return muslims reward like this. These were men who chose to go to battlefield and die for us. GOD BLESS AMERICA..and help america get rid of pest named islam

We don't know much about the major idiot. But if a group keeps saying we are not responsible for the actions of the few, soon you get a Nazi takeover. Then people say, we didn't know it was going to get that bad. Eventually the group has to take responsibility for the individual. Every Friday in mosque the muslims learn that god hates non believers, etc. Every sunday christians learn that god hates the egyptians an idolators. Some day, these people will learn to hate a hateful god and stop reading their books worshiping a god of hate. But alas, they keep rationalizing, it wasn't us so the fact that it was done in our name is not my responsibility. And you get major idiots killing young people volunteering to help their country.

It is time to have no proxy saviors, no last prophets, no books between you and god.

harium

C'mon you liberal freaks, who you kiddin'. We all know that Muslims are mostly a bunch of murderers.

This guy is another muslim traitor. Muslims have been betraying every country they have been living in. Kick muslims out of this country, if you do not want to repeat this kind of tragedy again.

Seems to me that much of this anti-Muslim
rhetoric plays right in to the hands of the terrorists. Bin Laden and his ilk have been trying very hard to convince people that the war on terror is really a war on Islam, and I see a fair number of people here providing him with lots of aid and comfort.

DeLyonGetty, you said,
"There is a reason why this bastard was allowed to kill our soldiers with impunity. We must find the person(s) responsible and courtmartial him/her immediately."

it is my understanding that there were "warning signs" in hassan's background. if this bears out...not good.

Zebra4;

'Despite Catholics and Proestants terrorising each other for more than 400 years in Northern Ireland, no one ever blamed Christianity as a whole for those acts of terrorism'

Really Zebra4?

Do you really believe this? Christianity was rightly blamed for 20 years for 20 years of slaughter in the various names and cabals the religionist protagonists represented. Christianity was blamed day after bloody day.

Northern Ireland seriously damaged the entire Christian message in Ireland as a whole. To watch the various priests/bishops/vicars of Christ etc etc on TV and press denouncing the vile acts whilst still proclaiming their own righteousness and blamelessness, was one of the most vulgar and reprehensible aspects of that dastardly war.

Check your facts in future Zebra4 or you will be in danger of being called a donkey.

I really wish that people would stop talking of Religion as if it is something that exists outside of people's minds. Islam (or any other religion) is not a thing separate from the beliefs and behavior of people who follow it. And there will be a large amount of diversity in those beliefs.

So, let us just focus on the individual who committed this atrocity and not on a vage, fuzzy definition of Islam. There isn't one. You talk to 100 muslims and you will get 100 different interpretations of it. And this is not true of Islam only. Any idealogy that is by definition subjective will have this trait.

zebra4, (hi)
in an illogical defense (i.e., christians are bad too) of islamic terrorism, you said,
"Not all slenderly-built, blue-eyed, white Christians think like Oklahoma City bomber, Timothy Mc Veigh."

true.

"Despite numerous bombings of abortion clinics in America, the Army of God fanatics who used Jesus' name in committing acts of terrorism, no one ever called those fanatics, "Christian terrorists". And no one should."

some people did, RIGHTLY, call the religiously-motivated abortion clinic bombers "christian terrorists".

the difference between the "crazy christian killers" and the "crazy muslim killers" is the sheer numbers. EVERY DAY we hear of some "allahu akbar" yelling killer.

The idiot who appointed this evil idiot thereby enabling him to accomplish his corruption, should be relieved of his status in the army.

There is a reason why this bastard was allowed to kill our soldiers with impunity. We must find the person(s) responsible and courtmartial him/her immediately.

The shooter Muslim should face the death penalty upon conviction.

Or else our army and nation will go down the pan,led by the silly Walking Eagle in the White House.

No matter how you sugarcoat things, Islam is a serious liability to mankind. Mother of all evil ideologies.

TO ALL THE ISLAMOPHOBES HERE AND ELSEWHERE:

Not all slenderly-built, blue-eyed, white Christians think like Oklahoma City bomber, Timothy Mc Veigh.

Despite numerous bombings of abortion clinics in America, the Army of God fanatics who used Jesus' name in committing acts of terrorism, no one ever called those fanatics, "Christian terrorists". And no one should.

Despite Catholics and Proestants terrorising each other for more than 400 years in Northern Ireland, no one ever blamed Christianity as a whole for those acts of terrorism.

Despite Europeans colonizing most of Asia, Africa, and Australia, stealing peoples's resources, no one called them Christian terrorists who committed such heinous crimes like the "Blackhole of Calcutta" or the massacres of Jalianwala Bagh in India. Those Europeans were true terrorists.

Were it Muslims who destroyed the civilizations of the Maya, the Aztec, and the Inca people? People of what religion were the perpetrators of those heinous crimes?

Conclusion: Although all acts of violence and terrorism must be condemned, maligning all Muslims by the Islamphobes here for the acts of one person or a few individuals must be deplored by fair-minded people.

The title for this article on the washingtonpost.com web site: "Not a true Muslim" reminded me of the "No true Scotsman" logical fallacy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

That being said, it's always unhelpful to project the actions of an individual onto a group, so I take the author's point.

yasseryousufi,

Isn't it time to discuss camel racing?

Yasseryousufi

Same old, same old, blah, blah and blah. Ask Mom to help you scroll down. Look at what you and your co-religionists have done and do. You do it to Jews, to Christians, to Hindus, and to your women.

Yesterday, you did it to thirteen servicemen and maimed thirty-one others.

After this country paid hundreds of thousands to educated him.

Simple murderers.

"Killers do not deserve the honor of a religious label."

mmhh that's a curious comment for sure. Haven't people killed in the name of religion for centuries? I'm 41 years old now and the longer I live the more certain I am that religious labels are a burden instead of an honor. And that's true for all dogmatic religions.

Mr. Patel should speak to the Post's own editorial staff. The first headline I read said something about a "Devout Muslim" doing the killings. I would say that a headline such as that in a major newspaper goes a long way in promoting a connection in people's minds between the Muslim religion and violence. As Mr. Patel points out, all three major religions, Christianity, Judaism, and Muslim have major teachings on kind treatment of fellow human beings.

Of course a Muslim did this. It seems pretty clear that his Islamic faith influenced and guided him to the actions he took today.

That's not to say that all Muslims are like this murderer, or that Islam necessarily caused anything. But one must take the good with the bad. Whether a law exists or not is only half the analysis -- the true issue is whether, and why, members of a group choose to obey their laws.

Therefore, saying that the shooter's actions had nothing to do with Islam because Islam forbids these killings, is like saying the Orlando office shooter's actions today had nothing to do with American culture since murder is illegal is Florida. That would be absurd. The better question is why Americans muder one another so often even though they all agree that murder is wrong. Likewise, the better question here is why so many Muslims commit these deliberate, murderous acts if they also believe Islam is peaceful.

abhab1, you quoted eboo,
“In Islam, as in other faiths, it is said that to take a single life is like taking all life.”

and commented,

"He omitted the word “innocent” between “single” and “life” as found in his scriptures. The Muslims are the ones who determine who is “innocent” and who is not...According to their understanding of their scriptures, the West is not “innocent”..."

excellent catch. smarmy how apologists omit key words when useful to their purposes...

"Mr. Patel: I apologize for all the regrettably unkind remarks against you and against Islam that appear here."

Don't apologize for me dude. I meant what I said and if it sounds unkind to you, then all I can say is the truth hurts sometimes.

You can vomit out all the PC claptrap you want but it doesn't make his message true or most of the comments here untrue.

I'm frankly a little tired of all these apologizes for Islam. No matter what atrocity they perpetrate next, the response is "This is not real Islam." I'm sorry but "Yes it is". Look, it is a violent religion, hopelessly stuck in medieval times and totally backward; public stoning, suicide bombers, amputations, all standard issue Islam. And the redeeming features. Re-read the previous list. I'm sorry; a plague on all religions, but especially Islam.

CDLUMPKIN, you are wise.

yasseryousufi, you said,
"So yea.......dont give us your moral highstandard bs. For every crime of muslims, you commit 10 times bigger atrocities~!"

you can't really think this?! jews commit 10 times the moral atrocities of muslims?!

It's reached the point in what passes for a civilized world that we must confront the following and take a clear, unambiguous position or we are doomed to a cycle of violence that will become more widespread and preemptive until or unless...
... those who profess to belong to mainstream elements of their religion (and assert that theirs is a peaceful religion) stand up as one to speak out and LOUDLY DENOUNCE each and every extremist and fanatic who cloaks themselves in the false disguise of said religion to slaughter, murder, behead and detonate to crush the lives of non-believers. Your silence becomes support, and your support constitutes shared guilt and blame. It will become impossible to distinguish the killers from those who feel falsely maligned by guilt by association. Terminate the association, or the guilt will pass from one to all.

CDLUMPKIN

You are a true Christian. Thank you for your comment.

Lots of sophistry here. The news details building up are to the effect that the murderer committed his crimes on account of him being a Muslim and believing that his mythology-based belief system was supportive and encouraging of his murders.

Eboo says:
“In Islam, as in other faiths, it is said that to take a single life is like taking all life.”
He omitted the word “innocent” between “single” and “life” as found in his scriptures. The Muslims are the ones who determine who is “innocent” and who is not. Reading comments to articles in the Arab press dealing with the West in general and the USA in particular, there seems to be a consensus among the readers that the West is waging a Crusade or Holy War against Islam. According to their understanding of their scriptures, the West is not “innocent” and so what a practicing Muslim to do but obey Allah’s commands as stated in the Quran and wage a jihad against” the enemies of Allah”.

farnaz, you said,
"Patel hides behind respectable Jewish clothes, just like Hamas hid under ladies dresses."

i'll totally give this to you. jews/israel have "behaved" MUCH better than their muslim/palestinian counterparts.

to israelis and palestinians:
this is just crazy. work it out. TWO STATE SOLUTION - NOW. stop dithering.

This guy acted against his faith, not with it or for it. His association of faith with his evil choices put him outside of his faith completely.

The author of this article points out something that a lot of Americans don't seem very cognizant of, but that's just how actively anti-violence & anti-hatred American Muslims really are. They're a group who's working very hard to end violence in the world in the name of their religion. Not being Muslim might have something to do with missing a lot of this. Just trying to point out the obvious there...

I have trouble thinking of anything more stupid for a Muslim to do than what this nitwit did.

It is a beastly pity, this incident. Not to mention all atrocities inspired by religious disposition.

There's no question hatred and violence can result from religious thought and training. Religious doctrines, as set down in the manuscripts, are open to personal and political interpretations. Even more so because they advocate universal, but often conflicting truths, filtered through cultural biases.

As for Islam, no other religion has come close to influencing so chillingly violent actions as this. Not in recent historical times.

And instead of simply dismissing the violence as an aberration of "true" Qur'anic doctrine, good Muslims everywhere should be moved by the horror, and earnestly work against the intolerance and violence. When they do not, they sacrifice the universal moral authority of Islam.

minister cdlumpkin, you said,

"Branding a man before he is tried and convected is un-American."

yes. absolutely!

"If it comes out that Major Hasan did act out of a sense of misguided faith rather than the more apparent motive of trying to get out of deploying to Iraq, it should put no blame on others of his faith."

no! if he did this because of his faith, blame his faith.

"It has been my experience, as a Christian (Baptist) minister, that people invoke the name of God before they think they are about to die. Calling out to Allah is not necessarily an act proclaiming oneself a Islamic terrorist, any more than a Christian crying out to God/Jesus before they murder others mean they murder in the name of Jesus. Both want the divine name on their lips when they die."

as they say, that's mighty christian of ya, but to me it makes a BIG DIFFERENCE to me if the guy had "in the name of jesus" or "in the name of allah" "on his lips" when he KILLS people.

and how many people, lately, have we heard calling on jesus as they kill people? jim jones? david koresh? i'm sure there are a others more recent. but we hear "allahu akbar" EVERY DAY from religious killers. (i'm not judging hassan, yet, but speaking of "suicide bombers.)

No reasonable person wants to live with pre conceptions and generalizations. Generalizations are another form of lying.

However, images are harder to remove than words and discussions. And he assimiliated as much as anyone could, joined and benefited from our armed force but failed to see us as family and countrymen.

That is powerful.

And it doesn't happen wih agnostics.

The Times just put up an interactive of the murdered soldiers. Truly a slice of America. Very sad.

Farnaz1Mansouri1,

Thats a lot of yapping even by your own standards. That by the way wasnt a one off incident and pray tell what was the background of that accident?? Who are these animals in Israeli Judiciary, supposedly the only democracy in the Middle-East, who letoff their fellow animal to murder even more babies?

Wow, 3 million enslaved Christians? Got any proof of that? You dont worry much about the credibility stuff of your posts do you?

The Bahai's are actually more than 5 million strong and growing at a rate of 4.4% according to the Bahai sources themselves. The Biigest Majority of Bahai's after India lives in the Muslim Iran~!

Next you got a whole laundry list of events which have nothing to do with Islam. Jews lived in prosperity and with peace with their Muslim brothers for hundreds of years before the diabolical creation of Israel. Israel is the cancer that eats up all the goodwill built upon generations. Again I would ask you to cite a muslim atrocity committed against Jewish people before Israel was created~! But you would never wanna go there.

So can I also ask you explain why the 5 million Iraqi children had to die because of the US sponsored embargoes? and add to that another million who died in the war fought on a pack of lies? What about the thousands dead in Afghanistan? what about the Bosnian Muslims? Chechens? Kashmiris? Palestinians? Mindanao? Again, spare us the moral high ground crap. If we were to take an eye for eye, you guys would have been blown up 10 times over~!

Woooaaa hello2012, that was more pessimistic than anything I spewed here. But, you are correct.

All non muzlum Americans should remember the words of Teddy Roosevelt.

Speak softly and carry a Glock.

Mr. Patel: I apologize for all the regrettably unkind remarks against you and against Islam that appear here. God, g-d, Ahura Mazda, Allah (blessed be them all if they exist), are imperfect apparitions that Man created to give some sense to his frightful world when Man lived alone in dark caves. Man created a horrifying creature god who hates women (because of the "fall", that splendid silliness about Eve taking a bite out of the apple and putting her trust in the snake (even I believe the snake)), who plagues us with all kinds of diseases and natural disasters and all other kinds of scary scenarios, and who stands silent as he allows mankind to construct weapons of mass destruction (which purpose is to annihilate each one of us). Further, our manmade "god" specifically chose a group of people, the Israelites, to get all the heavenly goodies and everyone else is here on earth as mere window dressing. Of course this cannot make sense to any rational being. And further, we are supposedly evolving to something more splendid a species, that's why we were allegedly put here on this earth. Unfortunately, there is too much inherited anger within us from our imperfect and warped religious backgrounds, and I'm afraid we will be back up in the trees swinging from the branches. If all the learned priests, rabbis, scholars, Imams, philosophers, ad nauseum, cannot bring us together, how can anyone expect each of us, limited as we are with hardly a brain cell left in our heads with which to act rationally and with some grace and dignity, ... how can we change the world? That would mean no more wars, and I'm afraid there are too many factions which make money from this earth's continuous skirmishes. Death is cheap and peace is not attainable at any price as long as man dwells on this planet. We are cheap and nasty squatters on this planet. We are the aliens here. We are vastly more frightening than anything science fiction can dream up. Amen.

The politically correct press and Obama administration will portray Muslims as pacific, tolerant, and loving. In fact, they are a bunch of medieval fanatics whom we should nuke into oblivion.

Oh, and yasseryousufi,

I forgot to mention the three thousand Americans you slaughtered on Septemter 11, 2001. In my neighborhood, we had to wear masks in the street. We watched files floating on the waters. On TV, we watched your co-Muslims cheering in New Jersey, on the highway.

Simple murderers.

yasseryousufi,

B.s. as usual, standard islamic crap. You should very well know the background of that incident, and, moreover, it was one. I've mentioned numerous countries which practiced horror against Jews, unrelentingly.

I have not brought up the three million Christians you have enslaved for generations in Pakistan and Bangaldesh, forcing them to clean out feces from the sewers with their FINGERS. (They die young.)

I have not brought up the B'hai, who are now an "endangered people" according to the United nations.

I have not brought up Uzbekistan, Algeria, dozens of other countries where you tortured, murdered us, stole our property.

Oh, and Murderer, I negelected to mention the little boy lured to a cave, murdered, his body smeared on the walls.

But, then, of course, you cut off Jews' heads, your wives heads, Christians' heads. You blow up trainloads of people in India. You kill your sisters for the crime of having been raped. You throw acid in the face of women who aren't interested.

What are a few hundred thousand dead Jews, Christians, enslaved Christians, your own women to you?

Nada. You are simple Murderers. As for the AmeriChristians, I say, More Power to Them. To the Hindus, I say More Power to Them. They will not put up with terror as Jews do.

yokosuka1985, you said,
"We are a Christian country..."

whoa! hold on there big fella... thomas jefferson, john madison, ben franklin, john adams et. al. FOUGHT HARD to make sure we were NOT a christian nation. america HAS NO national deity - that's what makes us great.

In fact, poop in their panties, I stand with both Pat Buchanan and Barack Obama, both of whom stated early on we have no business in those ME countries. We will never "win" anything over there. It is a huge waste of money!

FarnazMansouri,

"Jews did not blow up school buses, shoot children in the head at point blank range, blow up Sbarros, blast the cafeteria at Alexandria University as Palestinian Muslims did Jeruslem."

With regards to shooting children in the head at pointblank range, I wonder if you've heard of Iman Darweesh Al Hams (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iman_Darweesh_Al_Hams). All of 14 years old, going to school, having 17 bullets pumped into her frail body (10 in the head) at point blank range. And guess what punishment the IDF soldier who committed this heinous crime got? $1700 compensation and a promotion to the rank of Major. So yea.......dont give us your moral highstandard bs. For every crime of muslims, you commit 10 times bigger atrocities~!

poop in their panties, I am not a Christian, Jew, Muslim, or member any other stupid religion.

In reply to:
We are a Christian country..why can't the moslems leave and go back to their own part of the world?

I dare you to find ONE mention of Christ in our founding documents? Our founding fathers were very careful not to put that label on us - we are a democracy which welcomes ALL people of the world.

johng1,

I dont know about you! But a lot of your fellow Christian Crusaders of Goodness in Afghanistan, do poop in their panties when they have to go out and fight the Talibaans. They sit cowering inside their greenzones while Talibaan roam the countryside. And that after 8 years of Daisy Cutters, Bunker Busters, B2 Bombers, A super duper alliance of 42 Crusading Nations against a ragtag army of sand ni&&erz.

I challenge you to cite me one I repeat ONE instance of Jews being subjected to the same amount of vengeance in an Islamic country
---------------
Jews did not blow up school buses, shoot children in the head at point blank range, blow up Sbarros, blast the cafeteria at Alexandria University as Palestinian Muslims did Jeruslem.

The following nations have exiled most of their Jewish population, having tortured, molested, killed, having stolen their land and property. The Jews of these nations dwelled therein since before there was Islam:

Egypt
Syria,
Iraq
Iran
Yemen
Tunisia
Afghanistan
Morrocco
Numerous other African nations

Not only did we not blow ourselves or others up, we did not fire rockets at anyone. And unlike the Israelis, our enemies did not blanket us with warning fliers and leaflets for weeks beforehand.
-------------------------
That said, Yasseryousufi and Patel have an odd resemblance in their posts. Patel hides behind respectable Jewish clothes, just like Hamas hid under ladies dresses. Patel has yet to address the Muslim torture slaying of a young rabbi deliberately targeted for torture by his co-Muslim Dawood Ibrahim in the Mumbai massacre. His eight-month pregnant wife Rivka was also murdered, their little boy carried out covered in his parents blood.

Yasseryousufi is askeered of the Christians and Hindus, and he should be. Those folks don't mess around. They understand that Hasan was outraged at the US mass murder in Afghanistan and Iraq, that Hasan was horrified by the shell shock he witnessed among returning servicement, by the imminent prospect of being deployed. The AmeriChristians understand, and they empathize.

But they are not Jews. They will not put up with terror, and I say, More Power To THEM.

yokosuka1985 wrote: "We are a Christian country..why can't the moslems leave and go back to their own part of the world?"

Yeah, and take those heathen Native Americans with them! And the Jews. And the Catholics (they ain't real Christians, Rev. Hagee told me so).

Muslims, Jews, and Christians are all "people of the book". If you want to know the true essence of each of these religions, I recommend that you take a little time to actually read their respective holy books (Koran, Tanakh, Bible).

In the meantime, be on the lookout for those people who are truly at peace - who love God and love others as themselves. As they say, "You can tell a tree by its fruit."

The KKK are a bunch of has beens. The new organization is called something like "teabaggers."

Branding a man before he is tried and convected is un-American. If it comes out that Major Hasan did act out of a sense of misguided faith rather than the more apparent motive of trying to get out of deploying to Iraq, it should put no blame on others of his faith.

It has been my experience, as a Christian (Baptist) minister, that people invoke the name of God before they think they are about to die. Calling out to Allah is not necessarily an act proclaiming oneself a Islamic terrorist, any more than a Christian crying out to God/Jesus before they murder others mean they murder in the name of Jesus. Both want the divine name on their lips when they die.

Major Nidal M. Hasan, if he is convicted of this tragic crime, should be seen as representing nothing other than himself. There is more than a few Christians who attend church faithfully each week and still miss the part about Loving God and others. Let's take the log out of our eye and do what all people of faith should be doing now, coming together in love and prayer for those hurt in this tragic event.

Major Hasan is destined to face justice here and beyond. In both places he will be judged by his actions, not where he attended worship.

And don't forget the KKK - that wonderful Christian organization!

PanhandleWilly,
you're a little over-the-top, but right on target with,
"There are no reports that Mr Rodriguez was shouting 'Our Father, who art in heaven' as he was pulling the trigger."

We are a Christian country..why can't the moslems leave and go back to their own part of the world? Posted by: yokosuka1985

---------------

"We?" Be careful with your choice of words Kimosabe.

All the "bigots" are out in force attacking all Muslims over the Texas shooter's ethnic background - they fail to remember that Timothy McVeigh killed 100s in OK City; 2 Americans killed several fellow students at Columbine; Charles Whitman, a former Marine killed 14 from the U. of TX tower, etc. But it's so much easier to blame people who you don't like because they're "different" than you.

We are a Christian country..why can't the moslems leave and go back to their own part of the world?

This act is perfectly consistent, even encouraged, within certain elements of Islam. I predict that there will be public praise for this act in certain countries by certain groups and celebrations is some places. OK not everywhere in the Muslim world but they won't be isolated.

"But already the shooting has been glorified on at least one Jihadist Web site. A nearly four-minute video displayed media clips of the aftermath of the shooting, and declared that Maj. Hasan "did Jihad in that base and killed no less than 13 Crusader foreigners" and "put terror and chaos in the ranks of the enemy.""

So? Just because some pimple-faced wannabe jihadist has access to video-making software doesn't mean that Hasan was part of the group. The wannabe probably pulled video down from CNN, just like anyone else. Heck, I could make a video glorifying the guy that shot up the Holocaust Museum with the software that I have on my computer. That doesn't mean that I'd want to.

Speaking of our buddy the Holocaust Museum shooter, I'm still waiting for Christian groups to condemn what he did. After all, you followers of the "Prince of Peace" are all alike. (sarcasm)

youpoopedinyourpantsi, that may have been true more than 500 years ago. Who cares. The present status is de facto acceptance of violence and/or allowing them refuge while under the guise of battling terrorism (Pak). We cannot accept allowing this within our borders.

rentianxiang,

You ask me to read history and cite just one example of post Israel intolerance of Islam. I challenge you to cite me one I repeat ONE instance of Jews being subjected to the same amount of vengeance in an Islamic country, that Palestinians are suffering at the hands of the Israelis. Islam was the biggest super power and the largest empire for almost a 1000 years (600 to 1500 AD). If it were really against Jewish people they had ample time to finish them off. Instead we know that the Jews kept high posts in the Courts of Muslim emperors. The Jews as people of the book were held in high esteem by muslims usually. The most often read prayer by muslims "Durood Shareef" asks Allah to have mercy on the children of Ibrahim (Abraham).

That all ofcourse changed with the diabolical chain of events that led to the creation of Israel on the Muslim Holy Lands. And yes there was a reaction to that, specially when Jews burnt the Al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem. So yea......I dont know what history they teach you in the Hebrew ultra orthodox schools of occupied west bank. What I tell you is the real history verifiable by western historians~!

You're wrong Eboo. He IS a muzlum and acted exactly the way a muzlum is taught to act.

It doesn't matter if he was born here of Palestinian parents or born in Palestine like Sirhan Sirhan.

He did exactly as he was taught.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

The muzlum religion is nothing more than a terrorist organization and must be re-classified as such. Once the US government comes to it's senses and acts in the best interests of the United States and the American people, all muzlum immigrants can be rounded up and deported. Hopefully they'll take their murderers in training children with them. They're sure as hell are not wanted here.

All this happy talk about Islam is absurd. Of course, the killer was a Muslim, and he was acting consistently with the teachings of the Quran, which are to kill all infidels.

This is the same old lie offered by the Muslim apologists. Islam has been a movement of terror, murder, conquest and enslavement since it was invented. If Muslims accept and follow the Quran and Sharia law, they engage in murder, torture, conquest and enslavement.
Islam needs to be stripped of its satan-led proclamations that it is a religion. It is not, it is a violent movement for world conquest, and it must be stopped.

I am truly sorry to say that the only distortion going on here is the belief that islam is a religion of peace. This "murderer" did exactly what his holy book prescribes, "kill infidels where ye find them". The fact that he killed real heroes who protect this nation should prompt the removal of all muslims from the military, call me racist if you like, islam is not a race, it is evil.

Really Eboo, "he is not a muslim". How easy it is to disown after the fact. What are you doing to prevent the weekly, Friday brain washing of youth that goes on in mosques through out the world. In the muslim world, it is always "Us against them". In Middle east, them would be Jews, In South asia, them would be Hindus, In other parts of the world them would be Christians. Of course there are reasonable muslims through out the world but who knows how many of them are seething with anger inside. This Major is a perfect example of someone who seemed reasonable, law abiding but obviously had seething anger that eventually came out in such tragic manner. There is a problem with Islam, at least the way in which it is preached. It is important for muslims to recognize that before any reform can take place. How is it a religion of peace when people that practice this faith are responsible for world wide strife.

So we check everybody because Muslims are the only bombers and illegals can't be from Mexico ... wasting money faster than Barney Frank at Gay strip club

DEMOCRATS always have the best drugs

POSTED BY: HIGHKEY11 | NOVEMBER 6, 2009 3:42 PM
REPORT OFFENSIVE COMMENT

I'd argue this stupid point from highkey, but I suspect my effort would be wasted. Is Timothy McVeigh a muslim now? How about the guy that murdered the people at the Jewish museum in D.C.? The IRA are muslims? Ye gods, what foolishness and ignorance. We have a lot of blissful people in our country.

The writer ignores one key issue: Reality.

Islam is the most violent major religion in the present day. It's founder, Mohammend, ordered and led raid after raid, battle after battle. He describe jihad, war necessary to control the earth for the Umma, the people of Islam.

While other ancient religions with violent foundations have changed, Islam remains true to its roots. Most Muslim majority nations have some form of Sharia enshrined, and many are moving to stricter forms. Sharia describes not only how Muslims should live, but how non-Muslims must be ritually demeaned to show Islam's power.

The Organization of the Islamic Conferences, a group representing 57 Muslim nations, openly rejects the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. In its place, they put forward the Cairo Declaration of Human Rights in Islam. It says no rights exist that don't come from Sharia.

When a Danish cartoonist poked fun at Muslims, that wasn't enough. Muslims added more incendiary cartoons, then rioted against free speech. Globally, millions of Muslims violently expressed their anger at any view of Islam they they don't promulgate, all the while pushing much more virulent views of non-Muslims in Arab and Islamic nations' media. Nobody can point to a single major Muslim protest where the message was "we don't like the message of the cartoons but we believe in free speech". No Muslims stood against the mainstream violence inherent in the religion.

Again and again, Muslims worldwide shout, not for religious freedom and tolerance, but for Muslims to rule. they back up that shouting with violence.

yasseryousufi:

I think you need to read some history "dude." Muslim treatment towards Jews (and Christians) throughout history has been deplorable. Comparing it to the treatment Jews suffered in Christendom 1000 years ago it may come out ahead, but that is hardly a standard worth using. And you surely must be kidding when you talk about the treatment of Jews in contemporary Muslim countries. Jews have been practically kicked out of most countries in North Africa and the Middle East due to the repression and religious intolerance there. Not to mention all of the Jewish property seized. I can't believe you mentioned the Jews in Yemen who are suffering acute persecution. Muslim persecution of Jews started with the pact of Omar and continues to this day. Read some history indeed!

Athena4 wrote:

"The guy that went postal in Orlando today has the last name of Rodriguez. So, I guess some folks are going to be calling for a "jihad" against Hispanics now because of this? Paging Lou Dobbs..."

There are no reports that Mr Rodriguez was shouting 'Our Father, who art in heaven' as he was pulling the trigger.

I think Navin1 misunderstand Dr. Patel's last line. I did not read it as suggesting that Nidal Hasan is not a Muslim. His faith is between him and God and as far as we know, Hasan is a Muslim from the information from his family and so forth.

Dr. Patel is saying that faith, any faith, should not be sullied by using it to justify or explain or otherwise qualify this heinous crime. I'm with Dr. Patel on this point.

As for ColoradoDog - plenty of American Muslims have condemned Hasan's murderous shooting spree. As to his other, generally anti-religious sentiments, I respectfully disagree with his tone and content.

Sincerely,
Junaid M. Afeef

I'm sure Bernie Madoff being a Jew had nothing to do with it...

Eboo Patel...we would feel more sympathy for your argument if every one of these loons didn't reference their faith before pulling the trigger or hitting the detonate button. But time after time the actors shout Allah Akbar as they're killing leaving us to rationally conclude that the attacker is speaking for Islam and believes he is acting in accordance with Moslem beliefs about martyrdom. Frankly your fervent defense of Islam as a peaceful religion is now starting to sound like a snake oil sales pitch to the 'chumps' who want to believe it's true so you can take advantage of them again and again and again. I don't believe you. I am now convinced that Islam is only a religion of peace if you are a Moslem. If you are not, then at best Islam considers you an animal or a slave and at worst Islam commands moslems to kill you because you are an infidel. You should all leave America. You should return to the Magrheb.

I think Navin1 misunderstand Dr. Patel's last line. I did not read it as suggesting that Nidal Hasan is not a Muslim. His faith is between him and God and as far as we know, Hasan is a Muslim from the information from his family and so forth.

Dr. Patel is saying that faith, any faith, should not be sullied by using it to justify or explain or otherwise qualify this heinous crime. I'm with Dr. Patel on this point.

As for ColoradoDog - plenty of American Muslims have condemned Hasan's murderous shooting spree. As to his other, generally anti-religious sentiments, I respectfully disagree with his tone and content.

Sincerely,
Junaid M. Afeef

Two points-
From all published reports so far, this man was not just a Muslim, he was a devout Muslim, attending prayer services on a regular basis. If, in fact, Islam is as peaceful as is claimed, the fact that he attended services so regularly should have led him to resolve his anger in a non-violent way.

As to the military - while I understand why the military can't just discharge anyone who changes his or her mind about the commitment to serve when things get tough, why would they want to hang on to someone so clearly troubled and who had supposedly received unsatisfactory job evaluations? It seems to me the military services have yet to adequately address the enormous stress that these wars are placing on our servicemen and women. Apparently, even those just treating our returning soldiers are not immune from the effects of war.

eboo patel said,
"Killers do not deserve the honor of a religious label."

well...that depends...on what motivated their killing. osama bin laden "deserves" the label of "religious killer". hassan may or may not. we'll see when more of the story comes out. for now, it's largely just a coincidence he's muslim.

coloradodog said,
"The real question here, political correctness aside, is how can a devout American Muslim serve in a Judeo-Christian controlled military hell bent on converting or eliminating Muslims for their oil and hatred of Israel."

THAT'S interesting and may become relevant. we'll see. he was about to be deployed.

The guy that went postal in Orlando today has the last name of Rodriguez. So, I guess some folks are going to be calling for a "jihad" against Hispanics now because of this? Paging Lou Dobbs...

Mr Patel - religious texts are subject to interpretation. Mr Hasan's and Mr bin Laden's and ... interpretation of islamic texts are different from yours. What is tragic is it appears that islamic texts can justify both Mr Hasan's interpretation as well as yours. What a sad religion!

"He shouted "ALLA AKABAR". Had he shouted "VIVA START WARS", I would agree with you."

This lie sounds like its from the same people who gave us the fake videos of Palestinians handing out sweets after 9/11, aka Jews~!

This is from the latest article in the New York Times:

But already the shooting has been glorified on at least one Jihadist Web site. A nearly four-minute video displayed media clips of the aftermath of the shooting, and declared that Maj. Hasan "did Jihad in that base and killed no less than 13 Crusader foreigners" and "put terror and chaos in the ranks of the enemy."

Posted by: thetrekrockstar
ZZIM, I competely disagree with this concept of 'loser' that you are pressing on this guy.
You're just trying to prop yourself up, and that's naturally human.
=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Baloney, Krockstar. Losers take their problems out on other people. Losers end their lives in failure and prison. Losers reach the age of 39 without ever managing to get a single date. Losers are attracted to evil ideologies like Islamo-fascism and white supremacy because these poisonous ideologies make them feel important and powerful and special.

This guy is a complete and utter loser.

YASSERYOUSUFI: "How do we know he was motivated by Islam and not Hollywood~!"

He shouted "ALLA AKABAR". Had he shouted "VIVA START WARS", I would agree with you.

How do we know he was motivated by Islam and not Hollywood~!

Just one more Muslim (the thing is, he himself believes he is Muslim) adhering to today's modern understanding and teaching of the Koran, which must now be viewed by all non-Muslims as being in the same book class as Hitler's "Mein Kampf."

There is simply no other course of punishment for people that commit these crimes -- Muslim or not -- except killing them as quickly as possible after trial and conviction. Preferably within 24 hours. We just do not need to keep them around.

It may also be a very good idea to stop allowing admitted Muslims into the United States for any reason. We do not need them either.

People naturally want to know "why" killing spress like this happen.
In Columbine, the media was quick to blame violent pop culture (video games, movies, heavy metal, etc).
In this case, the media will focus on the killer's faith. Of course. It's too obvious to ignore, and the need to know "why" is powerful and urgent.

But motive is a tricky thing with mass murderers. They are often psychopathic. They get a thrill out of wielding power of those they consider inferior to them. Others are delusional, suffering from schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. Still others are out for revenge or justice (as they perceive it). Few have killed out of religious fervor.

If this man was a Christian, the media wouldn't be describing him as "A Christian American." Christian groups wouldn't feel the need to decry his actions. No one would expect them to.

Similarly, if the Columbine killers were into Enya and Super Mario Brothers instead of KMFDM and Doom, the media wouldn't have put much stock into the "pop culture" theory.

We all tend to grasp at the obvious straws in the aftermath of tragedies in an attempt to get some kind of closure. We need someone to blame. Often blaming the killer isn't enough. We have to know what made them do it, and attack that.

I understand that urge, but we must fight it. To try and explain away insane behaviour with some mundane external forces like music, or video games, or even faith, is foolish, even if it does offer some kind of comfort and closure.

People are a little more complex than that. Trying to boil them down to "A Muslim" is just as stupid as trying to boil them down to "A Marylin Manson fan."

Unfortunately religion is interpreted subjectively to its followers. That's when you get the radical extremists in any religion. I think Bill Maher has it right. But aside from that, this guy was an evil coward who happened to be Muslim. It could've been an evil Catholic coward just as well. But if he was a white American Catholic do you think the media would be discussing his Catholic background. Probably not.

Many of you are asking that Muslims take responsibility for the extremists among them. But the Muslim culture teaches otherwise, particularly when you have generations after generations being taught to blame Israel and the Jews for all their unhappiness. This diverts attention from the real culprits, their dysfunctional governments, violence among power hungry tribes, and a violent religion in desperate need of reformation.

"And needless there are no Jews in most of Islamic nations and if there are they have no freedom of religion."

Ronaldo, your name sounds Iberian to me. Go read some history dude. Where did the Jews seeked and found refuge when they were massacared and evicted from Spain. They were taken in by Muslim countries where they lived peacefully. Many still do. In Yemen, Iran, Tunisia, Egypt, Morroco, Turkey etc there is a sizable population of Jews. Israel has tried to lure the Iranian Jewry to giveup their Iranian citizenship but they are happy to live in Iran. They even have a seat reserved for them in the Parliament.

I guess idiots like you can benefit a great deal from modern wonders like Google and Yahoo if only you have the common sense to do a bit of research before you type.

It is certainly true that all decent people understand that the killer did not represent true Islam. We should be grateful that our opinion-makers are going to great lengths to make this point. At the same time, one cannot helpbut wonder what the reaction would have been if the disturbed killer had, instead, been a self-professed Christian. Can you imagine the outrage that we would be hearing from all quarters in the anti-Christian media? Without a doubt, the chorus would have been led from the White House! Instead, we have a President who was willing to makelight of the crime and essentialy spit in the face of the families of those who were lost. What a shame!

No one is going to change Islam. They are going to fade away or take over the globe. Fighting them will do nothing but breed more of them. Let them have their chophead squares and sharia law. That is their culture, not ours. Let us get away from them in every way possible.

I wonder how many Americians are worried that the Muslums around them may suddenly snap and "go Jihad".

I appreciate the Muslim community condemning Hasan's actions. Any truly viable "religion" would not take root if it were soely based on the extremist views this murdrer had been taught. Killing your neighbor, much less your brother in arms, goes against "normal" social mores. We would not be the successful social animals we are if we all acted this way. All "legitamte" belief systems understand this and have built into their dogams ways to teach brotherly love and mercy to their progeny. I belive Islam to be one of the greatest among those. BUT...
The Muslim community (or at least those "in charge") must take some responsibility for the actions of those who claim Islam as their compass. It is time to own up to the portions of Islam that can be interpreted (right or wrong) to guide one to commit these acts. There must be many such portions and it must be a very simple process to make the interpretations given how wide-spread and frequently these act occur in Islam's name. Islam must answer these questions: WHY are there Muslim extremists. WHY do these people use Islam as there core beleif system (as opposed to any number of other more hostile belief systems; KKK, neo-Nazism, etc.). HOW does "true" Islam effectivly and legimately separate itself form these extermists. Stereotypes, can be destructive, and coicidences are just that, coincidences. But for Islam to merely SAY that so many people have got it wrong is not enough.

Slowroller, my toilet of history is backed up. Do you know a good transcendental plumber?

The only way the West will "win this fight" is to marginalize them. The more irrelevant they are to us, they more they ignore US. A good start would be t get the hell out of their countries and stop buying oil from them.

Mr. Patel, why do you think that bald faced lying to the readers of the Post is somehow useful? According to the Post's own articles Mr. Hasan has been a Muslim his whole life. You don't stop being a Muslim the minute you do something Mr. Patel disapproves of, I don't recall you being given that religious authority. He might be a bad Muslim, a sinner, but he's still a Muslim.

When Catholic Priest's got caught abusing kids, the Post did not instantaneously declare them "non-Christians" or "non-Catholics". Why the double standard? It couldn't be that you're being *gasp* PC could it? Could it be that the Post really doesn't give a fig about reporting honestly to their readers but is only interesting in propagandizing them? You apparently can't report the facts anymore, the ignorant masses might misunderstand.

No one can dispute the alarming rise of islamic fanaticism around the world.

No one can dispute the fact that the impulse to support fanaticism, terrorism, and murder is becoming mainstream in much of the world's muslim community.

The simple fact is, islam and democratic values cannot coexist in peace. One or the other is going to get flushed down the toilet of history in the struggle that is to come, and it does not appear that the West has the will to win this fight.

Perhaps you can tell your Jewish friend how he would be treated in a Muslim majority nation/society. The Muslim terrorists from Pakistan went looking for Jews in Mumbai, India to massacre them and drive them out last year in November.

And needless there are no Jews in most of Islamic nations and if there are they have no freedom of religion.

Get over it~! So a guy snapped because he was unhappy with his job and took it out on his colleagues. Its happens dozens of times in America every year. Why dont you investigate the religous affiliations of the NRA people as vigorously. The guy lost it. it happens to dozens of americans everyday who take the lives of their colleagues alongwith them.

Maybe Hassan wanted a woman like the jihadists would likely have, but he couldn't find a good Muslim-American girl that would submit to his strict old world order. He must have been very frustrated and horny.

Here are some selections from the Koran:

Ibrahim means Abraham, the father of Issac.

And they say: Be Jews or Christians, you will be on the right course. Say: Nay! (we follow) the religion of Ibrahim, the Hanif, and he was not one of the polytheists.

Here we learn Abraham was not a Jew. And tha Jews and Christians are polytheists.

Ibrahim was not a Jew nor a Christian but he was (an) upright (man), a Muslim, and he was not one of the polytheists.

Christians and Jews should be shunded and are unjust.

O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

Because the Jews call Uzair a hero that makes them polytheists then he curses Jews and Christians.

And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!

Choice words of wisdom. I suspose Mohammad wasn't a true Muslim either?

Mr. Patel, instead of preaching us how peaceful your religion is, how about preaching your preachers to stop spreading hate. How about preaching this for a change "All are children of god!".

Sure, there are nutcases in every religion. But that percentage is extremely high in Islam for my comfort. Did you ever wonder why? As long as god talks to us through the religious books, we are doomed!

GOOD PRESS RELEASE Nancy ...

- We search old ladies getting on planes although it is only Muslims that blow themselves up on planes ... PC is killing us

The guy asks the drunk what is doing ..

- Searching for my car keys
- Where did you have them last ... over there, but the light is better over here ..

So we check everybody because Muslims are the only bombers and illegals can't be from Mexico ... wasting money faster than Barney Frank at Gay strip club

DEMOCRATS always have the best drugs

Wow. There are lots and lots of truly damaged people in this world. Some become murderers. More, apparently, just post xenophobic diatribes on WaPo threads. How do these zealots survive? Surely their crazed nature must stick out in society and prevent them from leading normal lives?

"This is our worst nightmare."

Eboo, you got that right, the rest, not so much.

One thing the Muslims continue to do in this day is treat women like subhumans or otherwise render them subservient to men. I used to see that every Friday when I lived on California St. here back in the 80's. They would walk well behind the men and wear the strangest garments to hide their faces. I believe women still are not allowed in the Mosque.

enough of the philosophical BS about this fanatical nuts religion reasons for murdering innocent people. any religion that does not come out to condemn and apologize for an action such as this condones it

"Case in point, the atom bomb, dropped on the Japanese [...] would never have been dropped on a Christian population, would it?"

Yeah, we only used firebombs on them.

"The bombs killed as many as 140,000 people in Hiroshima and 80,000 in Nagasaki by the end of 1945." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki

"Operation Gomorrah caused at least 50,000 deaths, mostly civilians, and left over a million other German civilians homeless."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Hamburg_in_World_War_II

"But a Muslim did not do this."

Right, Eboo. And by that idiocy, Muslims weren't responsible for 9/11 either. What were the hijackers shouting again? Oh, that's right.... Allahu Akbar.

Jesus said "Love your enemies". Jesus said "Pray for your enemies". Jesus said "Love your neighbor as yourself". Jesus said, "Love the Lord thy God with hy whole heart, thy whole soul, and thy whole being without reserve".

Where in the Koran does it say the same?

Another reason why TODAY the Judeo-abe-ISLAMIC-Ummah & their "AL TAQIYAH"?ists should ask themselves, "WHY does the World Suddenly Hate-Us [Islam/Muslum AL TAQIYAHists] and not the Judeo-abe-[Zionist?]Jews anymore?"

Posted by: for-runner | November 6, 2009 12:55 PM

----------------------------------

For-runner, exactly what is your d*mn problem??? Most of us here are trying to have a civilized discussion, even though we may have opposing views. Nobody needs your anti-Muslim verbal diarrhea spewing all over this blog. Heck, you sound more radical than Hasan allegedly did.

ZZIM, I competely disagree with this concept of 'loser' that you are pressing on this guy.

You're just trying to prop yourself up, and that's naturally human.

However, I don't see this guy as loser at all or anyone for that instance. This guy got degrees in pretty sophiscated subjects so you can't just dimiss this guy as a nut(Even he didn't have degrees, I would not call him loser). The reason he did what he did was a combination of factors such as discrimination, opposition to the Iraq War and a duitiful williness to betray his country for his insurgent breathen.

There is always a reason. Never call someone a nut, that's too simple.

So someone who is anti-social is a bad person. Ridcalous assumptions!

The reality is Muslims in the Arab world are dancing in the streets over this.

This event has no deep meaning. An antisocial loner went off the deep end and killed some innocent bystanders. No different from the guy in the Holocaust Museum, except that he was more successful at it.

People with certain mental disorders tend to be attracted to ideologies that make them feel grandiose and powerful. So instead of perceiving himself for what he really was - a stupid destructive selfish loser - he imagined himself a heroic shining martyr to a grand cause, cut down in battle while defending his people against their natural enemies.

What a loser. Just like the other guy.

Special note to Martiniano, who said this: “Yes, they always condemn after the fact. But is there one single documented case of a Muslim being turned in by fellow Muslims before the act? A single one?”

The Muslim-American community has performed a key positive role in the war on terror. They have organized, reported, reformed, counseled and fought the good fight against poisonous religious ideology from overseas. Martiniano, you are flat-out wrong. You owe America’s Muslim-Americans an apology.

Listen up: "Islam is a religion of peace. No Muslim could have done this. And if he was Muslim, he is no longer one."

That about says it does it not? It's getting more and more like the movie 'Telefon' with Charles Bronson. These people all seem normal until a switch goes off and they wreak havoc.

It's the war this generation must fight.

The question should be why are soilders at Ft. Hood killing each other. November 2009; July 2009; September-October 2008; etc.

I forgot to add that of course we are one of the groups taking something for someone else. We want and need their oil. They have control. They utilize their control.

We need to make oil a less valuable commodity. We can break them with our ingenuity and willfulness to pursue science. This comes with a price tag that the average American is not willing to accept. Hell, many here are still arguing that man is not affecting the planet in adverse ways using fossil fuels.

I agree Matthew. However, killing in the name of some god is just crazy. All mainstream religions have condoned it, at one time or another.

Usually, there is some underlying reason, like acquiring something that is not yours from someone else. Same thing going on here. Idiots who are easily influenced are controlled by sheiks and mullahs to keep them ignorant and under their control. At the same time, those in control spread violence using these pawns for their own needs. Religion is a great cover and keeps the perpetrators hidden!

We need to divorce ourselves from them. We can bring them to the table now and again, but if they pull this sht again, we ignore until the next deal.

Sooner or later these cultures will respect us because money rules. Business rules. Business must be purified from the leaches!

Question for johng1: What groups were not real "mf's" throughout history? This planet is teeming with violent people. They can be found in every group.

I'll give you a few more words to better describe the Ft. Hood perpetrator: Traitor and committed Islamo fascist.

Rickcko, I find Christians as objectionable as Muslims, if that makes you feel better. They are both so wrong and waste their lives because of silly beliefs. I just find some tenets of Islam more troubling. But it is true, the Christians were real mutha f's through history.

the previous 5 or 10 rampage murderers here in the US, notably in VA Tech, Cólumbine, and others, were carried out by Christians, or at least people raised in a predominantly Christian culture and environment. However, no one seemed to notice that or damn them from belonging to a religion that condemns mass murder. It's easy to use to Bible to justify the murder of non Christians and that has been done countless times throught history, up to the present. Case in point, the atom bomb, dropped on the Japanese (granted that unfortunately to some, they are not Muslim either), would never have been dropped on a Christian population, would it? Some posters of this thread would probably not be moved if the situation was reversed, except to celebrate it. So cut the crap about laying it all on Islam's door. A masaccre has been committed and that's tragic enough. BTW, I'm Christian.

I understand what you are saying...there are Nutcases in all religious groups; and therefore we should not blame this man's religion. We do not know what was in his mind--HE MAY be using his religion as an excuse for what he did. It's very sad that he couldn't find another way to leave the Army which was peaceful.

No, Allahu Akbar means "hold the anchovies!"

All religions are based on crazy beliefs. Islam, to me, seems to harbor the most dangerous tenets in today's world. I hope someday that all irrational beliefs in some all knowing fairy in the sky are tossed aside and we move forward as a civilization. Come on now, this is the 21 century!

""Allahu Akbar" is Arabic for "Kill Innocents". "

Wow. You DO know that it isn't, right? Or are you just being deliberately ignorant?

About 3 years ago, a naturalized Iranian drove an SUV through the UNC campus, attempting to run down and kill as many as he could. Fortunately, he only injured 9 people, and turn himself in afterward, siting his Islamic faith and desire to imitate one of the 911 passengers.

I'm sure that you would also consider him to be "not a Muslim", because his actions do not fit what you accept to be "a Muslim". It seems like many times I have read various Muslim apologists treat their religion as a sort of value set, which once you violate, you are no longer a Muslim anymore. But I personally feel that you suddenly cease to be a member of this religion when you are able to bend it to do something horrible. Especially if you are doing it *because* of a religiously founded set of beliefs.

And while the current case of the Texas army shooting has yet to be determined one way or another (I can easily see the difficulties of being Islamic in the American army putting one to the breaking point)... I think you do your religion a disservice by immediately disowning the actions of co-religionists, without reflection on how their interpretations of the Koran and Islam lead them to this. It seems a little too easy, a little too trite.

"But a Muslim did not do this. Killers do not deserve the honor of a religious label. The man who killed a group of brave American soldiers deserves one name and one name only: murderer."

Until you and the entire Ummah face the truth that your religion accepts and encourages murder then you will continue to be hated by non-Muslims. This murderer is a Muslim. Face it. Say it. Admit it. He is a Muslim and Muslims can easily justify murder of non-Muslims. And, as you have shown, if it is convenient to you then you can always just say "they are not Muslim". Even when they are.

"Allahu Akbar" is Arabic for "Kill Innocents".

"Muslim groups jumped to condemn last night's actions."

Yes, they always condemn after the fact. But is there one single documented case of a Muslim being turned in by fellow Muslims before the act? A single one?

Pre-destination allows you to blame all bad actions on Allah or Shaitan. But once again, in the long and ever growing chain of murderous events committed by Muslims, there is only denial and obfuscation.

Show us with your actions, Muslims. Turn in the murderers among you. Turn in your brother, your father or your cousin who plans to kill.

Then we, the 300,000,000 non-Muslim Americans may start to take you seriously.

Until then:

I hate you.

Deny, deny, deny. Every time a Muslim kills innocent people it is said "they are not Muslim". They are Muslim. Islam is fatal damaged by the belief in pre-destination. Any Muslim can commit any act and justify it as the will of God.

Any non-Muslim would have simply resigned his commission. Leave it to a Muslim to murder innocent people and then have it whitewashed by fellow Muslims.

I hate you.

FYI: Muslim convicted Beltway sniper John Muhammad is scheduled to be executed next week.

FYI: Muslim US soldier Hasan Abujihaad was convicted last year on espionage and material terrorism support charges after serving aboard the USS Benfold and sharing classified info with al Qaeda financiers, including movements of US ships just six months after al Qaeda operatives had killed 17 Americans aboard the USS Cole in the port of Yemen.

And the list goes on and on...

The shooter was screaming "Allahu Akbar". He has a long history of militant Islamic internet postings.

It's not subtle.

But then again, with the Post it doesn't need to be. This guy could have kept screaming "I'm doing this because my Islamic faith tells me to and you're all worthless unbelievers that are my ticket to paradise" while using a rocket launcher that shoots exploding Korans, and the writers hereabouts would still find a way to talk around it. By the same token Timothy McVeigh, whose nominal Christianity was entirely unrelated to his anti-government paranoia, is nonetheless held up as a "Christian terrorist" in some sort of sick scales-balancing rationalization. Funny, I don't remember him screaming "Jesus is great" the whole time.

Give me a break. We have a guy that was chastised and dismissed from Walter Reed for trying to sell Jihad to folks there, a guy that openly supports suicide bombers, a guy that planned his jihad rampage by giving away korans and his furniture and a guy that yell Alah Akbar as he murders the infidels and y'all want to show your supposed intellectualism by doubting why he did this. Please he was on an Islamist Jihad, stop trying to make it more complicated. This is what a significant percentage of muslims believe is correct as evidenced by the Arabs in Judea and Samaria handing out candies and celebrating on September 11th 2001. Wake up and stop trying to obfuscate.

Firstly, I am sorry Mr. Patel but, in fact, a Muslim did do this. It is possible to be both a murderer and a Muslim, as we have seen time and time again. Secondly, it is becoming clear that this man was not merely Muslim in name but a devout Muslim who was actually involved in proselytizing. In addition, it appears he did not want to be deployed to a theater involving Muslims. You are so blinded by your wishful thinking that you fail to see reality: the Koran, the Hadith and the biographies of the Muslim prophet Muhammad can be seen to condone and even encourage attacks against non-Muslims. I have read the Quran and your assertion above that it encourages "interfaith cooperation" is abjectly false. People like you that continue to paint a picture of Islam as a religion of peace are doing a great disservice to both Muslims and non-Muslims alike. What you really should be confronting and discussing is why so many of your co-religionists are so violent. Instead of denying Islam's role, you need to be honest and critical and figure out how to reconcile the violent and intolerant aspects of the Quran and Hadith to the modern world. You will continue to have Islam-inspired violence as long as you fail to be honest and confront the problems within Islam itelf. So-called Islamophobes are not commiting violence in the name of Islam, Muslims are. (Although it is still unclear in this case if it was done in the name of Islam, although there are reports the murderer was shouting "Allahu Akbar" as he fired.)

Also, ISNA and MPAC are two organizations that promote the concept of Islamic supremacy and work for the implementation of Shariah law in the US. I wouldn't reference them as shining examples of peace-loving Muslims. Also, one needs to read their condemnations carefully since the word "innocent" might not mean the same to them as it does to most people. Are people in the military of a country involved in a war against Muslims "innocent"? How about civilians who pay taxes in support of such an army?

The problem is whenever someone "of faith" does something like this "the faith" disowns them and distances themselves from them. Up to this moment you would have claimed them as a brother in Islam or Christianity, etc. Either they are your brother or not

If he just cracked he's another victim of these unnecessary wars. If he shouted Ahalhu Akbar, then it's a different story. If he had a difficult past in his training, why did they keep him in the Army?

Most Americans never believed the baloney about the peacefulness of Islam. Ever less now.

Doesn't it say in the Koran to kill all
infidels?

Did religious beliefs influence the 9/11 terrorists? To hold the position that religion is all good and has no role whatsoever in amoral actions is to have one's head in the ground.

Thanks for saying it. He's a guy who cracked. Muslims crack up just like anybody else. Why should their religion always precede the act, as if the religion condones the acts. The media never misses an opportunity to exacerbate the misconceptions. It's so unfair to the real God-fearing Muslim.

"Killers do not deserve the honor of a religious label."

Well said, I really like that quote.

There are killers that are muslim, there are killers that are christian, there are killers that are buddhists, and killers that are atheists.

No one man speaks for a religion (positively or negatively) but each man has the right to his religion. Even a murderer. This man is a muslim.

hariuam