@YassirYousufi:

I have many shia friends as well. Ismailis are a sect of shia. You are dead wrong. Pakistan Government does not consider Ismailis as non-muslims. Sunnis of course consider Ismailis and all other shias as heretics. Some friction is an understatement of how the shias have been killed in Pakistan. One example of facts avaiable is the UNHCR report: http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/country,,IRBC,,PAK,4562d8cf2,49913b5e59,0.html or from iran:
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=89643§ionid=351020401

However, I do not have to rely on reports. I know many many in Pakistan. Many of my family are still in Pakistan, so please I am quite familiar with the cheap lying and blindness that you exhibit here.

What you quoted was from Maududi's Tahfeem Ul Quran and not from the Quran itself. You even complained why I was bringing Maududi's name if you had mentioned that you were quoting the Tahfeem. Either your memory is bad or you lie as most jihadi muslims do when they deal with Kaafir. This habit of lying is being recognized as "Taqqiya" by the people here. Taqqiya is shia concept but the tradition of lying in sunni goes more under "kitman". And you lie again that there is no agreement among the muslims. All the madhabs agree that apostates are to be killed. There are only one or two writers who argue for not killing of the apostates. Apostates have been killed in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Somalia, Sudan, etc.and recently.

I will not be replying in this thread, since it is closed and hardly anyone will be looking at it anymore.

abhab1,

Go read my post again! I said Dhimmism was a just system compared to what others, Christians for instance, used to follow. The Crusaders proudly claimed that they filled the streets of Jerusalem knee deep with the blood of Saracens (Muslims). They found justifications from Christianity for this carnnage. In Marrat Al Nauman, the Crusaders even ate their muslim prisoners.

"Some people said that, constrained by the lack of food, they boiled pagan adults in cooking-pots, impaled children on spits and devoured them grilled."-----Radulph of Caen

Its not hard to imagine how hatefull apes like you would be jumping up and down, had the Muslim army came even close to these forms of barbarity. Instead the treatment of Christians by Saladin when he retook the Jerusalem from Christians should be a lesson for all you hatemogers. There's no Dhimmism around these days although the butchery of Christian Crusaders continues.....

Yasser asserts:
“I found Dhimmism to be a just system”.
If so he should not object to it being applied to him and his like in the West.
Peruse below some of the provisions of the Omar Pact that institutionalized this so-called Dhimmitude.
http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-kills-pact-of-umar.htm

Eboo says:
“Every religion holds up the ideal of the equal dignity of human beings.”

True! except for Islam. Quote for me one verse from Quran that mentions "equality" or "dignity" followed by “human beings”. Your scriptures talk endlessly of “Believers” and ‘Unbelievers’, of “Muslims” and “Kuffars”, of “House of Peace”
and “House of War”.

Kafir,

I have many Shia friends, Ismaili's are considered heretics and outside the folds of Islam even by Shia's because some of their practices are a direct contrardiction of what Islam stands for (the principle of equality etc.) After Iran and Iraq Pakistan has most number of Shias in the world. Almost 30% Karachiites are Shia. There has been some friction but overall Shia's and sunni have been living peacefully. There aren't any ghettoized Shia communities. We live and work side by side.

What I quoted was directly taken from the Quran. I am not a follower of Maududi. Never read any of his writings. Name me one Islamic country that executes apostates. Didnt I gave you the example of Ahmedi's in Pakistan. There is no agreement amongst Islamic Scholars on punishment for apostates. Taqqiya is a new fancy word you guys have learnt. Its got nothing to do with Islam. Neither is it written in the Quran nor did Prophet Muhammad ever preached it. There's a tradition of Taqqiya amongst some sects of Shi'ism but nothing of that sort in mainstream Islam.

Coloardo Dog
And the bastard Whistling crawls out of the swamp. Even his co-swamp bastards can't stand him.

Posted by: Farnaz1Mansouri1 | January 27, 2010 3:56 PM
------------------------

Ah, maybe our Israeli poser does hate someone after all. Offensive comment reported.

Posted by: coloradodog | January 27, 2010 11:13 PM
Report Offensive Comment
------------------------------------------
I'm an Iranian-American, not Israeli, but thank you for the compliment.

Whistling, your new friend, is notorious throughout WaPo for his anti-Jewish racism; he is a Holocaust denier.

There really isn't much more to be said to you, Dog.

With this new post, you have trumpeted all that needs to be heard on subject of you. I pity you. And I mean that sincerely. You are confused, lost in the dunnest smoke of hell.

News flash: those who hate Jews and Muslims are typically Christians.

YasserYosufi:"Islam has already declared that there is no compulsion in religion!"

You love to quote Maududi extensively. What does he say about what that means? Islam is a one way door. There is no exit. Anyone wanting an exit is to be killed if he does not change his mind within 3 days. Why don't you tell the whole truth and not just the taqiyya laden nonsense.

@YasserYousufi:

And for your information Eboo Patel is an Ismaili as well. Do you consider him a Kaafir as well?

YasserYosufi: "I can speak for Pakistan, we consider Ismailis and Ahmedis as apostates."

Obviously you cannot for you are giving wrong information. Ismailis are not considered apostates in Pakistan. Only the Ahmediyyas have been declared non-muslim by the Pakistani state. However Pakistan is riven with sectarian hate, and many even consider the 15% of the population who are shia as kaafirs. The shia are blasted regularly around the country. Since Ismailis are part of the shia, in that sense they are also killed by the true believers among the Sunnis. However, Agha Khan, the Imam of the Ismailis is accorded state honors and welcomed as a muslim by the Pakisan Government, the OIC, the Saudi Monarchy, etc.

groucho42,

Do you doubt the figure i quoted? Can you back it up with any proof? What is the actual number of apostates in Egypt? I do not speak for Egypt anyways. Its a country ruled by an oppressive autocrat supported by US and despised by its people. If they do not recognize the people who change their religions, then its wrong! But I doubt it is for religous reasons. They come done even harder on islamists than on these apostates. Summary executions and life imprisonments is a norm for muslim brotherhood activists. Islam has already declared that there is no compulsion in religion!

I can speak for Pakistan, we consider Ismailis and Ahmedis as apostates. They are a recognized minority and are present in influential Government positions. The Christians are free to build their Churches, carry out their religous practice freely, they have job quotas and reserved seats in the parliament which is in addition to what they can get on their own.

Your hatefilled rant speaks volumes of your ignorance. Dhimmism used to be practiced during middle ages. During that time the Christian Crusaders used to kill all muslim prisoners in any territory they occupied and even ate those people (Ma'arrat al-Numan!). I found Dhimmism to be a just system, but thats a debate for another day. The fact of the matter is that there is no Dhimmism around these days.

There was no rejection of the UDHR by muslim delegates. The current UDHR is based upon Judeo-Christian Principles. There is nothing wrong with muslim countries demanding that their sensibilities also be taken into account just as those of Jews and Christians. In a democratic system there is nothing wrong in demanding your rights. If the majority of UN feels that this demand is unjustified I believe the muslims would move on. But there's nothing wrong in asking is it?

So how many muslim countries have you been to? You make pretty stupid generalising statements about status of minorities. How about a comparative study of treatment of minorities in Europe and Islamic World.

And the bastard Whistling crawls out of the swamp. Even his co-swamp bastards can't stand him.

Posted by: Farnaz1Mansouri1 | January 27, 2010 3:56 PM
------------------------

Ah, maybe our Israeli poser does hate someone after all. Offensive comment reported.

Groucho42 wrote"

coloradodog displays the ignorance of religion pointed out in the survey. The "Abrahamic faiths" aren't quite the same, especially in their view of Abraham.

While Christianity accepts the Torah as the Old Testament and just says a new word came through Jesus, Islam claims something else. They rewrote both books, saying Christianity and Judaism lied about Abraham, Moses, Jesus and much of the rest of the books.

Islam has a very different interpretation and it can't be lumped in the same category as Judaism and Christianity.

_________________________________

Both Islam and Judaism (and, thus, Christianity) are considered "Abrahamic faiths," in that they stem from a connection to Abraham as described in the Torah, the Bible, and the Qu'ran. Since Islam is predominantly an Arabic religion, it has been concluded that Islam stems from Ishmael, the elder son of Abraham and half-brother of Isaac father of Jacob (later named Israel).

The following verses from Quran proves the point ....

And He(Allah) taught Adam the names of all things; then He placed them before the angels, and said: "Tell me the names of these if ye are right."
( Quran,Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #31)

Allah did choose Adam and Noah, the family of Abraham, and the family of 'Imran above all people,-
( Quran,Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #33)

We(Allah) have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms.
( Quran,An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #163)

And remember We(Allah) took from the prophets their covenant: As (We did) from thee: from Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus the son of Mary: We took from them a solemn covenant:
( Quran,Al-Ahzab, Chapter #33, Verse #7)

from wikianswers

The only "ignorance" here is Christians trying to disown Islam as a part of their intolerant common Abrahamic "my-way-or-the highway" denominator.

Hirsi Ali says it well:
*************
http://www.aei.org/article/100627
Nowhere in the world is bigotry so rampant as in Muslim countries. No difference is greater between American and Islamic principles than the founding ideals of both. It is on the basis of the founding ideals of Islam that al-Qa'ida and other Muslim puritans insist on the implementation of sharia law, jihad and the eternal subjection of women. It is on the basis of the founding ideals of America that blacks and women fought for--and gained--equal rights and gays and new immigrants continue to do so.

I would include Thomas Jefferson's improvements on the New Testament. The king, the sheik and the ayatollah have the authority to rule that parts of the Koran no longer apply in the modern world. For instance, the edicts of sharia law that reject scientific inquiry and order all Muslims to spread Islam.

And of course, no reading selection would be complete without a copy of the US Constitution, highlighting (because you can do that in a Kindle) the Eighth Amendment banning cruel and unusual punishment.

And for good measure, I would also add John F.Kennedy's inaugural address: "Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty. . . . To those peoples in the huts and villages across the globe struggling to break the bonds of mass misery, we pledge our best efforts to help them help themselves, for whatever period is required. . . . To those nations who would make themselves our adversary . . . we dare not tempt them with weakness. For only when our arms are sufficient beyond doubt can we be certain beyond doubt that they will never be employed. . . . Ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man." Not to mention woman.

....

I wish he [Obama] would host a reading summit where we truly "say openly to each other the things we hold in our hearts that too often are said only behind closed doors". For too many of us born into Islam, saying those things openly can land us in jail or in the graveyard.
*********************

Oh, and while we're discussing conversions, let's discuss Dhimmitude. Infidels under Muslim rule are ritually and legally mistreated in the name of Allah by Sharia law. Muslims have proudly documented the long history of such Dhimmitude and they were the ones who first made Jews wear yellow symbols of identification on clothing, long before Germany did.

Islam has three ordered choices it offers conquered infidels: Conversion, acceptance of Dhimmi status and death. Is it any real wonder why many of the indigenous people conquered by Jihad accepted conversion in order to escape the later two choices?

That also goes back to one of my original points. There's no such thing a "moderate Islamic countries" when all unanimously reject the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and support The Cairo Declaration of Human Rights in Islam. The later clearly state that the only rights that exist are those granted by Sharia Law. No innate rights exist, according to Islam.

yasseryousufi does not do his religion any good with his posts.

"No one's loosing sleep over these AHA's or Irshad Manji's. For every apostate we get probably 10,000 converts..." Really?

That's why Egypt, a supposedly "moderate" Muslim country, will not recognize people who change their religion from Islam to another. Their official documents list religion and a number of cases have been reported of the Egyptian government recording conversions from Christianity to Islam but refusing to document conversions the other direction.

That directly contradicts both your contention about losing sleep and about conversion numbers.

Try again.

whistling, did you follow Patel's link to the poll "analysis"? Read it? Attempt to address the problems I pointed I with it?

No, you just decided the polls could mean whatever you wanted it to be, just as Patel and the "report's" authors did. The unwillingness to look at facts and understand them is the root of much of the problems in religious discussions. You provide yet another example.

moon-base-alpha:

Re: Your post

Except for Israel, almost all of the MIddle East is Judenrein. Jews have been forced out, in some cases deported, in some killed, from lands such as Iran, Egypt, Syria, Yemen, etc., in which they had lived for two thousand years.

Just a few weeks ago, most of the remaining three hundred some-odd Yemeni Jews who had lived there for thousands of years were forced to leave, after screaming Islamic lunatics attacked their villages screeching, "Convert or die!" IN the process of their "proselytizing," one of them muredred a thirty-one-year-old rabbi.

Throughout France, in England, in Germany, there has been antisemitic incident after antisemitic incident, inevitably purpetraed by Muslims.

Thus far, there have been no "counter-attacks" anywhere, except for one I know of in Brooklyn....

Not looking good. A first, that was, in a very peaceful neighborhood. The next attack if there is one will surely be met with a response, and so it will go. At least in this part of the world.

Not looking good....

Lets hear your story apostate Arif! Ya gotta feel for these small willied Hindus. (still obsessed with that Paki word!) They either play these apostate games or hide behind american names. No self confidence! none whatsoever~!

No one's loosing sleep over these AHA's or Irshad Manji's. For every apostate we get probably 10,000 converts to Islam. Hirsi Ali was a liar who was deported by the Dutch even though she rose to the rank of a Parliamentarian because she made up stories to seek asylum just like she made up stories about Islam to get rich and famous! Thats a fact! Go google it up!

The Muslim nutjob says...
"Kafir is a Ayyan Hirsi Ali Inspired Hindu whacko masquerading as a muslim apostate because he thinks it sounds cool to be an apostate and no body will be able to guess his true identity!
Grow up kiddo!... "

"You dont have the balls to argue against the facts I provided..."

This is so typical Muslim, a musalmaan can never believe that one of their own can bash/abandon Islam and its horrid prophet. They are taught that once a Muslim always a muslim. A Paki Muslim will always accuse an apostate of being a Hindu (never fails), otherwise its got to be a Jew. They hate to see a living apostate; Ayan Hirsi is one such example. Even "nice guy" Eboo has spewed his venum over Ayan Ali on several occasions.

Muslims, its only going to get worse; there are going to be more of us. So, don’t loose sleep and pray for our speedy and painful death. We are doing fine and live happy lives spreading the truth about Islam and its terrorist prophet.

Sooo, all of a sudden someone decided to talk a poll on Muslims...and accidentally found Jews to be hated "equally".

BS. This is a case of the ADL and AIPAC types finding that Anti-Semitism is suddenly growing at a really alarming rate.

What campaign they're planning so they can talk about it, put PC back in style (too late, it fled with Madoff's revelations)

and try to stem the flood. But with
the Wall Street greedies doing their thing, and Americans SICK of it, and of the Jewish owned media hiding things,

it's gonna be tough. And as usual the idea is not to change behavior, but to scream REALLY loud about how awful everyone is to feel the WAY THEY DO.

A famous Pakistani cricket player on being interviewed on his country's national TV channel, made derogatory remarks on Hindus (for not giving him a contract in India cricket league). The host of the show and another guest joined in the insults against Hindus and India...(according to website OutlookIndia.com)

Most Muslim majority societies openly discriminate and insult non-Muslims by calling themsleves Islamic republics. There are 57 already and Muslims are killing and dying for more exclusive Islamic lands.

Just don't see other religions doing that. Eboo Patel is absolutely wrong.

...blah blah blah...

...as my sensors indicate these moronic nations can argue till they are blue in the face and the fact still remains...

...that the Muslim's and Jews are distant cousins and there is no reason on Earth why they can't live side by side in peace...

...except for the fact that these nations allow a small handful of unscrupulous, wealthy greedy land grabbers to misguide them and lead them into war every time...

...in the name of religion...

...when it is in fact a conflict over land and power...

...and NOT religion...

...and if these sheep nations would only rise up to overthrow their leaders then they could easily live in peace side by side with Muslim & Jew & Gentile & Winnie the Pooh...

...it has been written...

The hatred I see on a regular basis is right here on this "on faith" forum and its almost always directed towards Christians from atheists and agnostics.

Posted by: US-conscience

Has your Christianity blinded you to the hate radical Christian fundamentalists direct at gays, liberals, Democrats, Muslims and Mexicans? Are you blind to you Huckabee "Pastors" using Psalms 109 to pray to their small and shallow god for the death of the President of the United States and for suffering for his family? Are you blind to right-wing "Christian" xenophobia and hatred of health care and education in our country?
Are you blind to Robertson's hateful pontification about the Haitians?
Are you blind to the Catholic Church's sexual terrorists buggering little boys?

Love your neighbor as yourself? Only with one of your Huckabee "Christian" or Donohue Catholic disclaimers:

*does not apply to gays, alter boys, Mexicans, Muslims, liberals, Democrats,
black Presidents, Haitians, Buddhists, Janes or Hindus.

Maybe the proverbial log in your own eye is blinding you to all of this in the name of poor old Jesus.

jgp38 claims "The evangelical radicals are nothing more than the American Taliban."

Really, so the poster can show us where massive numbers of fundamentalist preachers call for the violent overthrow of our government, the way the Taliban did in Afghanistan? He (most likely) can give us links where the fundamentalists openly claim that women shouldn't be allowed in schools? Anything else to show that they're even remotely near the same level of fanaticism, violence and reactionary beliefs as the Taliban?

Yes, Christian fundamentalist are dangerous, but not all dangers are equal.

coloradodog displays the ignorance of religion pointed out in the survey. The "Abrahamic faiths" aren't quite the same, especially in their view of Abraham.

While Christianity accepts the Torah as the Old Testament and just says a new word came through Jesus, Islam claims something else. They rewrote both books, saying Christianity and Judaism lied about Abraham, Moses, Jesus and much of the rest of the books.

Islam has a very different interpretation and it can't be lumped in the same category as Judaism and Christianity.

All religions tend to hate the competition, it's important to understand how and why.

To practical independent: I dont know how others define hate in a religious-sense, but I define it as the marginalization and dehumanization of people who worship differently, or who chose not to worship at all. Religious hate takes many forms--from the poster on here who said Islam is a "gutter religion" because of its treatment of women, for example (ignoring the treatment of women by some extreme Christian sects and some not so extreme). Hate to me is also the efforts by certain segments of the Christian community to deny gays and lesbians the same rights as other Americans. Unfortunately, you don't have to look far under the veneer of some religious practices to see the foundations of such is hate.

The evangelical radicals are nothing more than the American Taliban. They insist everyone think the same as they do, which is a very narrow view of the World. Of course, all religions are inferior to them.
This is reflected in a growing percentage of people who are spirital but refuse to be affiliated with a religion.

All religion is bile.

Ever notice how people of Abrahamic faiths spend a lot of time hating each other or those within different sects of their own specific Abrahamic religion. It's a common denominator.

I'm not sure of how we're defining "Hate" in this conversation. If one holds to or disagree with a certain set theologies or doctrines is that "Hate." If one accepts a certain historical account of one or another religion, Is that "Hate?"

Patel's trying to rationalize a poll that asks Americans by generalizing it to the world. Sadly, he shows that statistics is another area of ignorance.As the main body of people hating Jews today is the Muslim World, his initial presence falls flat on its face.

Sadly, though, Patel's main problem isn't ignorance, it's intentional propaganda, his usual tool. Go to the link he gives for the poll. Look at the chart on page 7. The responders seem to dislike Buddhism, Christianity and Judaism at around the same percentage. Yes, Christianity is in the mix. Muslims, on the other had, are disliked at a much higher rate.

Could it be because Jihad declared a war on the West and Muslims have been killing and trying to kill us for decades? No, says Patel, it's because we also hate Jews. Sorry, doesn't follow.

On page eight, they switch from the religions to people who follow the religion. The pattern remains. There's a major statistical difference between dislike of Muslims and the other religious adherents.

On page 13, the study tries to link the prejudice against Jews with that against Muslims. Notice a religion disappears: Buddhism. Gosh, could it be that fundamentalist Christians dislike ALL other religions? It would seem reasonable, but since the apologist group behind the study wants to create a specific link, that aspect is not discussed.

Finally, notice the point about Americans not knowing about Islam. That's true. What the creators of the apologia miss is that helps them. For instance, a lot of Americans claim Muslims want peace while the group claims most Muslims want equality. However, the Organization of the Islamic Conferences, representing fifty-seven Muslim nations, openly rejects the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and unanimously proposed The Cairo Declaration of Human Rights in Islam. That claims that the only rights that exist are the ones Muslims grant people through Sharia law.

That is not equality, that is not peaceful, that is reality -- A reality neither Patel nor the folks who massaged the polls want people to see.

Islam is a gutter 'religion' that promotes death, violence, and the subjugation of women.

«People who hate Jews also hate Muslims.»
Posted by Eboo Patel | January 25, 2010; 9:28 AM ET

O Eboo, *some* people who hate Jews also hate Muslims. But many people who hate Jews for killing Prophet Issa do not hate Muslims, because there were no Muslims when Prophet Issa was crucified. Your generalization, it is not true.

«Every religion holds up the ideal of the equal dignity of human beings.»

Huh?

«And every generation finds a way to violate that ideal by directing hatred at other communities. But prejudice is like cancer - it spreads.»

O Eboo, you are right, it does spread, and Mr. Lehrer knows that it does spread, and he has the answer to prejudice and hate, his answer is called, «National Brotherhood Week»:

«Oh, the Protestants hate the Catholics,
And the Catholics hate the Protestants,
And the Hindus hate the Moslems,
And everybody hates the Jews.

«But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week,
It's National Everyone-smile-at-one-another-hood Week.
Be nice to people who
Are inferior to you.
It's only for a week, so have no fear.
Be grateful that it doesn't last all year!»
--from Tom Lehrer's song

In 2000 I attended a performance of the Passion Play in Oberammergau, Germany. The scipt of the play had been recently re-written and the blatant anti-semitism theme that had been woven throughout the five-hour performance, and had been the inspiration for centuries of pogroms, had been excised for the new Millenium. When I returned from the trip and reported this fact to an acquaintance, my comments were met with utter dismay. This acquaintance apparently felt that the Christian bible had been betrayed, for the purpose of political corrrectness, as if to imply that anti-semitism was somehow sanctioned by the so-called "good book."

I mean really, what is the point that the author is trying to make here. This 'On Faith' section generally contains a lot of rubbish.

Shewholives,

Thankyou for your interest. I infact know that AHA is not a Hindu and you happened to misunderstand my point. What I meant was that Kafir with whom I have exchanged posts earlier as well is a Hindu imposter who is probably inspired by AHA's story and thinks its cool to post as a muslim apostate and spew his inherent hatred for muslims hiding behind that mask~! You have the right to hold the opinions you have on her, I have expressed my views on her quite clearly before. I do not believe she's threatened from Islam. She's been exposed as a treacherous liar by the Dutch media and parliament itself~! To Islam haters she will ofcourse be a hero because she says all the things the hatemongers like to listen about Islam.

The issue here isn't "religions". The issue is Islam.

No religion on earth today is responsible for so many being murdered in its name. No religion on earth is involved in so much violence in its name today.

Religion has become a force for evil in the world. Maybe it was always so, I don't know. But, in my lifetime, I have seen in this country religion go from one's private exercise of faith to public spectacle. You can't run for election in this country unless you publicly profess some sort of religiuosity, most preferably of the Christian brand. Doesn't matter if you personally believe what you profess. What matters is that you profess it, and loudly. Religion and politics have married here, and the offspring of that marriage are deforming our democracy.

As long as Religion is practiced there will be hate. Hate is the product of religion. When people finally reject the magic show we can move forward without the barrier of religious dogma.

"But these people seem to have forgotten what the Christians did from the Crusades to the Inquisitions, from the slaughters in Jerusalem to the slaughter of the Natives of the Americas, Australia, New Zealand, etc., from world wars 1 and 2 to the nuking of innocent men, women and children in two Japanese cities..."

The difference, Awabnavi, is that except for the crusades and the Inquisition, the rest of those acts were not done in the name of Christ. There were people involved in those acts who felt God & Jesus were blessing their actions, but you didn't see the entire population jump up and say "Doing this is God's will."

World War One did not occur because of Christ, it occurred because a Serbian nationalist/irredentist/whatever-ist shot the Archduke Ferdinand. That in and of itself didn't cause the war - indeed, the upper circles of the Austrian government didn't exactly mourn the Archduke's passing. However, elements within the government saw an excellent excuse to engage in a war to destroy Serbia. That, and a mishmash of entangling alliances in Europe, led to a succession of declaration of wars when Austria went to war. Those were hardly the only factors involved - nationalism, unresolved territorial disputes, arms races, etc., all contributed as well. There was very little overt religious reasoning.

The nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not conducted because the Japanese weren't Christians. They were conducted because an invasion of the Home Islands ('mainland' Japan) had casualty estimates - for the Allies alone - ranging from the hundreds of thousands to the MILLIONS. Using the bombs would only put a few bomber crews and their fighter escorts at risk; and it was hoped that obliterating one or two cities would shock the Emperor into surrendering before the bloodbath of an invasion became necessary. Personally, I agree with Truman's decision to use atomic weapons.

Holding all Christians responsible for such events would be like holding all Muslims responsible for the cowards who strap bombs to their chests and blow up unarmed civilians. Do people do it? Yes. Is it right? No.

By the way a Muslim country Turkey, the Ottoman empire was part of WWI - if you are going to defend Islam as peaceful know your history - the Turks committed atrocities against the christian people under their thumb for hundreds of years.

Its called Prima Noctura - rape the christian bride on her wedding night - if we want to talk history its going to get worse and worse.

Muslims have a very aggressive culture. It wasn't Christians that started the war in Lebanon, it wasn't Christians that started the war in Nigeria, it wasn't Christians that attacked Turkisk pirates in the mediterrean sea, it isn't christians defaning Mecca.
It wasn't Christians that harassed muslims in the Holy Land that eventually caused the Crusades and it wasn't Christians that mistreated muslims in Spain that brought on the Inquisition.

I don't hate muslims but they don't exactly have a growing track record now do they?

I see many Muslims willing to wipe out Israel and Jews but not any Jews wanting to wipe out Muslim nations.

I see Islamic terror attacks and plots every day directed at non-Muslims. I don't see Jews/Hindus blowing up Muslims every day.

This author does not make any sense. Only hateful and intolerant ideology is Islam these days.

I see many Muslims willing to wipe out Israel and Jews but not any Jews wanting to wipe out Muslim nations.

I see Islamic terror attacks and plots every day directed at non-Muslims. I don't see Jews/Hindus blowing up Muslims every day.

This author does not make any sense. Only hateful and intolerant ideology is Islam these days.

Question:

Since 9/11 and the fighting of two wars against things Islam, perhaps the current angry feelings against Muslims is reflected.

But why so much detestation against Jews here and now...as there has been everywhere in every century they've ever appeared?

I mean, what do they say to themselves aboiut why they are hated? And so much increasingly so. Madoff and the current bunch of Wall Street "bankers" doesn't explain it all.
And there's Gaza, the money grubbing of American arms and wealth for Israel, etc. etc. and etc. But why else?

And most of the Muslim bashing here are Jews propogandizing. Think nobody figures it out?

Judging from the reactive tone of most of these posts, most people prefer to live with their hatreds. Sad, empty stuff.

Amazing how much disinformation there is about the Crusades and how constantly it is dredged up to some how support the claim Moslems hate the west because of the evil assualt by western Crusaders against peaceful Moslems. Hogwash!

Anti-Moslem bias is a result of Moslem actions. A Moslem and Jew for that matter, can move about freely throughout the western world without fear of being attacked for being a Jew or Moslem. A Christian cannot do the same in any Moslem country without looking over his/her shoulder.

Jews on the other hand have made Isreal's cause America's cause and there can be no peace between the United States and the Middle East as long as the US is an Ally of a religious state.

I agree. But as for muslims, if we are to respect them and their religion, it needs to come from them as well. If they don't like our values, cultures and freedom of speech as well as freedom FROM religion, there are plenty of countries that will welcome them back.

PS

The giveaway is the number of Jewish postershere (most of the 'ON Faith" posters), many the same old names

suddenly scream about Christianity.
How awful it is.

Very interesting, because 60% of the posts in "on faith" are by Jews, often Israelis pretending to be American, but plenty of home grown as well, virulently spouting off about Muslims...that they are stupid, etc. How Israel is right to savage their
territory, etc.

And one rarely sees a post that so obiously comes from a Muslim.

It is also true that 9/11 wasn't done by
Muslims per se...but the American Wall Street Bankers are who they are, per se.

Has Mr. Patel read the Chrisitian Bible recently? The first four books of the Christian testament (that would be Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) are full of hate and scorn for those who don't follow Jesus's version of "the Lord".

Anyone who disagrees should first re-read those books. I'm sure you're going to get a lot of people quoting them here in the other comments too.

I've concluded that one of Christianity's fundamental principles is to divide people between believers and un-believers. Among other reasons, it is why I find Christianity disturbing. (Judaism and Islam are no better in this regard.)

Maybe, God gave man free choice...
and didn't our Lord teach us thru the Bible...
was our lord bias towards rich people, sinners, hypocrites...
yes He was...
prejudice and bias are part of the human condition...
we just have to learn to get along...
and close the bridge that brings the enemy to our gates and in our homes...

Good to see all the HATE for ISLAM. But these people seem to have forgotten what the Christians did from the Crusades to the Inquisitions, from the slaughters in Jerusalem to the slaughter of the Natives of the Americas, Australia, New Zealand, etc., from world wars 1 and 2 to the nuking of innocent men, women and children in two Japanese cities, from the slaughter of six million Jews to the slaughter of three million Vietnamese and a similar number of Koreans to the slaughter of Iraqis, Afghans and Pakistanis. The people of the West should first look to their own ATROCITIES before condemning others.

Patel says:
"People who hate Jews also hate Muslims".

I may be wrong but it seems I hear much more "Jew hating" from Muslims than any other group. Does that make Muslims a largely self-hating group?

I could easily say: "People who hate Christians also hate Jews". Or vice-versa.

If your religion is so great and wonderful than why do you have problems with it and others.

All of you hate mongers and saying your going to take over the world is leading to nothing but mini-war's between you and other groups that do not like what spew's from your mouth.

The day will come when you will be on the opposite side and your head will turn like never before, then and only then will you realize what you have done and regret it.

Muslims persecute Christians all over the muslim world, a fact never noted in this space. It is not asking too much that such atrocities at least be recognized before intolerance toward muslims is condemned. "As you sow, so shall you reap."

Newsflash: A look at the Gallup poll shows a different picture- a more complete picture:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/125312/Religious-Prejudice-Stronger-Against-Muslims.aspx

While only 15% of Americans are prejudiced towards Jews, nearly half of Americans are prejudiced towards Muslims- including 9% who admittedly are very prejudiced.

The reason for this huge discrepancy should be clear: Jews aren't murdering our folks, Jews aren't oppressing us, Jews aren't fighting against us to subdue us 'infidels'.

Muslims are.

Since we are "all made in God's image" I guess that makes God a bigot.

Hey, while we're at it, how about all you religious folk stop spreading garbage about atheists being immoral and untrustworthy?

Care to rewrite your holy books?

I didn't think so....

Frequently we hear and read such comments as "The major abrahamic religions believe in the same God." This is not true! Muslims and Jews are very strongly monotheistic while Christians believe in a three pronged God. The central figure in Christianity is the God-Man figure of Jesus. Ask any Jew or Muslim if they believe that Jesus was God in human flesh who ran afoul of the authorities and was executed. They will most emphatically say that Jesus was a man and not a God. This is diametrically opposed to the central believ of Christianity. Each religion thinks it is the true one and that the others are misguided or downright false. The other major religions (Hinduism for example) have an entirely different idea of God. Let's stop repeating the nonsense that we all worship the same God. We do not and the other religions and their Gods are obviously false to a true believer

Here's an idea...teach the human race the futility of attempting to define an unfathomable supreme entity. When men cease their pitiable attempts at trying to tell others what and who their god is, religion ceases to be a defining aspect of culture. Then we have one less stupid thing to fight over. "God" is an infinite concept, one which the tiny human mind can never fully appreciate and understand. So stop trying to define what it is for yourselves, thereby excluding all others.

Eboo Patel has missed the point by a mile and he must wonder why so few people agree with his way of thinking.

Humans organize themselves so as to define "the other". Religion is just another human invention to give definition of and license to hate the other. Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, makes no difference, if you are not one of "us", then you must be one of "them". And the ultimate other is satan, and who doesn't hate satan? For all this blather, you are not going to change human nature and as long as there is religion, there will be a ready reason to hate.

The funny thing is all three religions - Jewish - Christian and Muslim believe in the same god! LOL, but yet they don't? But they do! but they don't? HUH? am I missing something here - OH YEAH - it's all about the $$$$$ and power and control. Religion the worlds greatest scam and con game.

In Christianity the two greatest laws are 1. Love God with all your heart, mind, strength and soul. 2. Love your neighbor ( all others ) as yourself.

The hatred I see on a regular basis is right here on this "on faith" forum and its almost always directed towards Christians from atheists and agnostics.

AUM
ABHAYAM-FEAR NOT
By Chitranjan Sawant
As a human being we should be friendly with other human beings.However, it is seen that when a new man, his wife and kids move into a house in the neighbourhood,the older residents look down upon them as intruders. Indeed the new comer has paid the green-back dollars to acquire or rent that property but this fact is often overlooked. Old is gold, so think the older residents. The New may be Platinum for all you know. I don't care - that attitude is a road block in beginning a communication. One wonders why the friendly instinct of welcoming a new neighbour takes a back seat these days when you and I need it most.
COMPASSION
The youth is driven by Passion. If there is a sweet little chick in the new flock, the boys of nubile age think of dating her - not with the intention of taking her to altar but with the not so sacred instinct of taking her to bed sooner or later. That is not the human spirit. That is the animal instinct. We all behave as animals sometime or the other. It is the correct education that purifies and reforms our baser instincts and makes a man out of an animal.
MANURBHAV
The Vedas, most ancient scriptures in the library of mankind advise all men and women to be good Human Beings.Among the many qualities of a Human Being isCompassion or in Sanskrit, KARUNA. If my heart bleeds for the man or the woman next door when she needs help, I have risen to the status of a Human after sublimating my animal instincts. I have risen higher than what the old saying demanded of me. A FRIEND IN NEED IS A FRIEND INDEED - that is the age-old adage. Going to the help of a neighbour, a fellow man, even before making friends with him or her is a step higher than what was required of me, a neighbour, in the saying on friendship.Going into that direction further, one may even go to rescue a damsel in distress and that would indeed be an act of a good human being.
One need not be a Knight in shining armor on a white horse to prove to the humanity his Humane qualities. This may be done in a lane or a bylane where the poor, the needy and the deprived men and women live.
Let us obey the Vedic injunction "MANURBHAV'and be true to our Dharma or the code of conduct to live and let live in a human society.God treats all human beings as His sons and daughters and does not differentiate between votaries of one religion and another.
______________________________
UPVANOM, 609, Sector 29, NOIDA - 201303, INDIA.
Mobile : 0091-9811173590.

GOD does not live here. Focus on hatred. Hating people is bad period. Hatred is a negative trait that humans should let go of. Stop blaming GOD for your emotions and feelings. Take responsibility for your own thoughts, words, and actions, and stop blaming GOD for how you hold hatred in your hearts towards others.

Mutual respect!

A practicing Buddhist!

The great difficulty here is that "God" is also the source of the most extreme bias in our world. The fact that one version of God is opposed to bias doesn't change that dynamic. There is a wicked ideology in the world - fundamentalist religion. That ideology has mass murderers (Osama Bin Laden), ordinary murderers (abortion doctor killers and those who deprive sick children of medical care) and garden variety haters (Pat Robertson and his ilk). Only rarely do mainstream religious leaders fight back or even condemn this evil. They do not do so because under the hood of every religious belief in the world is the theological notion that "I am right. I know God's will and you are therefore wrong." Fundamentalism assaulted will yield religion destroyed is the unspoken fear. So the great churches sit in silence. No mainstream religious leader rebuts Falwell's homophobic rants. No congregation condemns the faith healers as frauds. All are passive in the face of evil.

Kafir is a Ayyan Hirsi Ali Inspired Hindu whacko masquerading as a muslim apostate because he thinks it sounds cool to be an apostate and no body will be able to guess his true identity! Grow up kiddo! You dont have the balls to argue against the facts I provided. You just pick one point and ignore the rest of the post. Your Islam is evil rant is getting oh so predictable. Do some actual authentic reading before posting your gibberish here~!

Posted by: yasseryousufi
----------------------------
yasseryousufi, nice post but completely wrong. Shows how little you know. Ayan Hirsi Ali is a woman and she is not a Hindu. She was born in Somalia and has given up her Muslim faith. She is what you would call an apostate. Of course, her life has been threatened by the Religion of Peace.

Intolerance directed at homosexuals or any of our fellow man is also contrary to religious teachiings.

Some people find the whole tree of Middle Eastern religions to be insane and harmful, so oppose their practitioners. Is it fair to call it "hate" when you dislike the bringers of delusion, misery, magic thinking, and passive aggressive psychology?

It is quite apparent from all these comments that religion is one of the bigger problems in the world. I wish all these goofy ideas would just go away but know they will not. That's why I avoid religion in all of it's insidiuos forms. Ramen.

Isn't it astonishing that religious folk hate so. Must be that love of god and man they have.

This is a key concept -- hate breeds hate -- that was presented in a clumsy argument. It merits consideration. And all the atheists just need to calm down. You're just contributing static.

"The Jews have mainly been killing Palestinians."

=========================

Right. There has never been a Jew killed by a Palestinian.

It's time to get rid of the Islamic Fundamentalists. But we need to rid ourselves of the Christian Fundamentalists, too.

I didn't see secular or fundamentalist on the list.

Who defines religion? My experience is it takes a much smaller leap to raise the paranoid gene. I also think US education should be considered a religion of propaganda.

Great. When I stop hearing about "infidels" I'll stop complaining about intolerance.

Here's your first sentense: "People who hate Jews also hate Muslims."

It's false.

In fact, I know a number of Muslims who hate Jews and are not self hating.

Start again. And, try to avoid stereotyping whole classes of people.

Islam is just Judiaism without the ethnocentrism.

I think we should forget our differences and gang up on the Palestinians.

SOME COMMENTS QUOTE "PROFESSOR" ILAN PAPPE AND OTHER NOTORIOUS JEW (AND SELF) HATERS; OTHERS PREFER QUOTING MUSLIM OR CHRISTIAN HATERS, WHILE A FEW ARE "EQUAL OPPORTUNITY HATERS" - JUST FOR THE SAKE OF IT.

EBOO PATEL WANTED TO WRITE A REALLY CONTROVERSIAL PIECE, AND ANYTHING THAT HAS TO DO WITH RELIGION IS, OF COURSE, INCLUDED IN THIS CATEGORY. NOW PUTTING JEWS AND MUSLIMS TOGETHER IS A SURE WAY TO GENERATE LOTS OF COMMENTS. WHILE FAITH IS ONE THING, RELIGION IS A TOTALLY DIFFERENT THING - AND ONE HAS NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, IN COMMON WITH THE OTHER. THIS IS WHY "THE FAITH DIVIDE" IS SUCH A BAD TITLE TO THIS COLUMN. AN HONEST ONE WOULD BE "THE RELIGIOUS DIVIDE", BUT THEN HONESTY IS A RARE COMMODITY NOWADAYS.

WE ALL KNOW HOW MALIGNANT RELIGIONS ARE - ANY ONE OF THEM, BUT WE INSIST IN FINDING VIRTUES WHERE NONE TRULY EXISTS. AND THE DEBATE GOES ON AND ON AND ON, AD NAUSEAM.

SINCE HUMANS ENJOY KILLING EACH OTHER (WHILE CLAIMING THE CONTRARY), THE REASON DOES NOT REALLY MATTER - HENCE THE NEED FOR RELIGIONS AS A VIABLE EXCUSE.

The problem has been around for a long time. The Christians at one time had their own version of the Taliban. They were known as Crusaders. Before they became involved fighting Muslims, they hunted down and killed other Christians who they viewed as heretics. Many people cloak themselves in religion in order to justify their evil deeds. One of my more infamous ancestors coined the phrase, "Kill them all - Let God sort them out," when he ordered the massacre of the entire population of a French town because he had heard that there were some heretics living in the town. Motivations have always seemed to be the same, e.g., power, wealth, and women, although I have no doubt that some cult leaders are criminally insane. Charismatic leaders always seem to draw in followers, many of whom seem to welcome religion as an excuse to abuse other people, and others who are misquided into thinking that they will reap great rewards in the hereafter.

YassirYousufi: "Kafir is a Ayyan Hirsi Ali Inspired Hindu whacko masquerading as a muslim apostate because he thinks it sounds cool to be an apostate and no body will be able to guess his true identity!"

I may be a vulcun or a klingon or even a 10 foot Navi. Regardless of who I am, it is still okay to criticize and examine any ideology including Islam. You want to defend Islam and that is your prerogative. However, the Kaafirs need to be very clear that Major Nadal who shot and killed 13, or Abu Muttalib who wanted to down a plane by blowing himself up, or the many head choppers who do it in front of Video cameras while waving qurans and yelling Allah hu Akbar all claim that they do it because Islam tells them to do it. Kaafirs will ignore the words of the killers at their own peril.
I am a hindu because you are a Pakistani. I would have been a jew if your were an arab, and I would have been a christian if you had been a malaysian or an indonesian. You just cannot come to terms with that there are many apostates of Islam now besides the few who make themselves public and then have to live with death threats and attempts at their lives like Hirsi Ali. Hirsi Ali states it explicitly that Islam is a hateful ideology, and she is absolutely correct.

You quoted Mawdudi and he was well known for his support of the jihadist ideology. If he is your route into Islam, then you support the world wide jihad that Al Qaeda preaches and is involved in.

"If we can't find a way to follow the ancient teachings of our religions, perhaps we will be more likely to heed the lessons of a more contemporary tool - the poll."

How about we just dont bother with them anymore, dont hurt anyone or hate someone because of what some loon who thinks he talked to god 2000 years ago wrote and just try and get along.

Not that hard.

And if people can talk to god, why does he tell different people to follow different religions? Is he having everyone on? Does he enjoy watching people kill others?

God is a sick twisted a-hole...at best

AKafir wrote,

I am an apostate of Islam and I think it is justified to criticize and expose the hatred against the Kaafir that is imbedded in Islam. Hating Islam is hating an ideology. It is okay to hate Nazism. It is okay to hate Islam.

*****************************************************

Kafir is a Ayyan Hirsi Ali Inspired Hindu whacko masquerading as a muslim apostate because he thinks it sounds cool to be an apostate and no body will be able to guess his true identity! Grow up kiddo! You dont have the balls to argue against the facts I provided. You just pick one point and ignore the rest of the post. Your Islam is evil rant is getting oh so predictable. Do some actual authentic reading before posting your gibberish here~!

You persons posting below claiming to be Muslims who are outraged against the 'Christians' like, say, America, 'attacking' you or simply being too close to you are really lying. Islam itself is the greatest killer of other Muslim people. The indiscriminate killing of fellow Muslims is simply considered 'fortunes of war' to the leaders of the Islamic assaults.

In addition, while many Christians do indeed live in America, so do members of literally hundreds of other religious belief systems which are, of the great majority, 'Golden Rule' systems with great consideration for their fellow Human Beings, unlike Islam, biased only for the Muslim. America is not a Christian theocracy.

Death to Islam, stinking cult of terror and war.

YasserYousufi:
"Half a million dead Iraqi children, a direct consequence of sanctions imposed by the Christian West."

The Christian West? All the bloody borders of Islam are always the fault of the non-muslims and the muslims are the victims. And Yasser is a moderate muslim in the christian west. Islam has never had peaceful borders. They have always been bloody following the example of the Islam's 7th century warlord.

Eboo Patel makes the most oft repeated conceptual error when he emphasizes the emotion of hate as the operational driver of conflict between social groups. In the case of Jews and Muslims, the conflict stems from each group having an entitlement agenda that is fundamentally incompatible with the other.

That doesn’t mean that every individual who identifies themselves as a Muslim or a Jew necessarily subscribes to the group agenda. It just means that for Jews who do, they believe that their religious/ethnic identity entitles them to take possession of Israel/Palestine to the dispossession of others.

For Muslims, it is the entitlement to see that their religion is the predominant faith everywhere. It is the resistance to those agendas that engenders hatred and fuels conflict. The Muslims’ agenda is much more comprehensive and is therefore perceived to be the greater threat to the world at large. Beyond that, there is the content of Islamic scripture, which features justification for many draconian social restrictions and sanctions.

I would probably be more sympathetic to the Palestinian cause if they were not wedded to a to a religious tradition that takes its intolerance seriously. Zionism is sort of like affirmative action to aid a group that has suffered much and could really use a safe haven.
Materially, the loss of Palestine is fairly inconsequential, but the land loss is secondary to the insult to the Muslim identity.

deadmanwalking wrote,

The Christians truly do have a history of monstrous violence, but it's pretty much just that - history.

The Muslim killing and enslaving is current events.

----------------------------------------------

You Sir, take away the prize of the most ignorant commentator of the day.

Half a million dead Iraqi children, a direct consequence of sanctions imposed by the Christian West. A further 1 Million Iraqis dead, 4.5 million displaced, 1-2 million widowed, 5 million orphaned in addition to a functioning country of 31 Million people absolutely destroyed in a diabolical war based on lies by the Christian coalition of the willing. The Ethinic cleansing of nominaly muslim, bosniaks by the Serb Orthodox Christian. The Butchering of Chechens by Russians. The illegal occupation and enslavement of muslims of Mindanao by the Christian Philippnos, thats all got to be ancient history yeah?

Muslim Terrorism doesnt even constitute an iota of the terrorism perpetrated and encouraged by the Christians in this day and age~!

"Anti-semitism is linked to Islamophobia."

Islamophobia is a devious made up word by the Islamist to prevent people from examining and criticizing Islam. Anti-semitism is hatred of a "people", of real people who can get hurt. The equivalent would be hatred of muslims, and around the world the non-muslims bend over backword to show that their cultures and their ideologies do not even discriminate against muslims. This is opposed to the deeply deeply biased and discriminatory laws on the books of all Islamic countries against the non-muslims.

I am an apostate of Islam and I think it is justified to criticize and expose the hatred against the Kaafir that is imbedded in Islam. Hating Islam is hating an ideology. It is okay to hate Nazism. It is okay to hate Islam. It is not okay to generalize that to the people, the muslims. We are at war with the Jihadist who in my opinion are the true believers of the words of the Quran, and are the one who reflect the ideology of Islam in its pure form. It is okay to hate those who kill because their ideology tells them to kill kaafirs. I have no desire to tolerate an Abdul Muttalib who wanted to kill the hundreds flying on that plane. What ever ideology drove him to want to kill those people should be hated. He says that that ideology is Islam. He is speaking the truth.

If you're a member of the Christian Right, why shouldn't you hate others who don't see as you do?

After all,

1. You are on God's side and all others are not.
2. You know God's will and all others do not.
3. You will use the power of government to advance your view of God's kingdom.
4. Anyone who disagrees or opposes you is against God.
5. Anyone who is anti-God is by definition an agent of Satan. And you never make any deals with the Devil.

All hail the Christian States of America.

So the author is saying that Jew hating Muslims actually hate Muslims? Makes sense if your brain has stopped all functioning.

With all the hatred religions from the middle east seem to inspire, I am taking a good look at the religions of China-Taoism and Confucianism as well as Chinese Buddhism. I have not seen any evidence of hatred,occupations,wars for nothing,my god is right and your god is evil and praying to the right god,whichever one is the right one,to kill someone in a war.

Awww - what a nice sentiment!

Now come over here so I can chop your head off.

burlydave's comment was well-written, but incorrect.

Muslims are killing Jews, Christians and other infidels all over the world. Using google to do a little research paints a horrifying picture of modern day murder, mayhem and slavery all done in the name of God, by Muslims.

The Christians truly do have a history of monstrous violence, but it's pretty much just that - history.

The Muslim killing and enslaving is current events.

If the Taliban take possession of Pakistan's nuclear arsenal and/or Iran finishes it's nuclear build and a delivery system, it's quite possible the second round of the Crusades will start - and the Ummah will attempt to finish what the Caliphate could not, the subjugation of the non-Muslim world.

The Christians have killed way more people than any other religion. Think of the Spaniards searching for gold in the Americas, the British searching for the northwest passage. Americas "manifest destiny", and utter subjugation of the natives.

Think of the slave trade and the Christian slave masters.

Think of the "crusades". Think of Napoleon.

The Jews have mainly been killing Palestinians.

The Muslims have mainly been killing other Muslims, some Jews in Israel, and some Americans via terror attacks and the wars in Iraq and Afganistan.

Overall, the contest of which religion has killed more people...
I'd have to say it's the Christians.

Newsflash: No one likes Muslims, muslims don't like muslims.

No country likes its Muslim borders, Greece hates Turkey, India hates Pakistan, Egypt hates Israel, Sudan hates...
Nobody, nobody likes the dirty Muslim...
Jews don't like Muslims
Christians don't like Muslims
Chinese don't like muslims.
Indians don't like Muslims.
Buddhists don't like muslims.
... dont like muslims.

An excellent video by PROFESSOR ILAN PAPPE about the

Israeli law
British law
American law (which was designed to STEAL the land of NATIVEs )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpxHdAhZRxQ&feature=related

John Locke the celebrated philosopher was explained in a harvard lecture to have formulated his "theories" to justify the stealth of the land by yank bustards.

From the Wall Street Journal, no less, comes the following article:

The Anthrax Attacks Remain Unsolved

The article makes the case that the scapegoat Ivins could not have made the anthrax used in the attacks since it had relatively high concentrations of silicon, which he could not have created.

I still believe that the anthrax case is one of the best opportunities for the 9/11 truth movement. The facts are relatively straightforward compared to 9/11. If it could be shown that the anthrax attacks originated from the US government or agents thereof, it would produce a massive shift in the public's thinking. People would then be forced to accept the fact that they have been lied to and the country was attacked through an inside job. That would open up, in my opinion, a huge opportunity to expose the truth about 9/11.

Miovski,

I'm sure you mean well, but denial and pretending a problem does not exist is not the answer. Actually, this is making the problem of Islamic terrorism worse.

Of course, people who happen to be born into a muslim family like Eboo Patel (or Yasseryousufi) will have the need to defend Islam because it is a part of their identity.
Most people are good people. Most muslims are good people. But their are too many violent muslims today and throughout history. Good muslims are good in spite of the supremacist and narrow-minded ideology found in the Koran and Hadith. The good find the good in the Koran and ignore the bad, which is nice.
The problem is there is too much justification for acts of violence against nonbelievers (kafirs) in the Koran and in the culture & history of Islam. This has to be addressed and cannot be ignored.
step 1: ackowledge there is a problem.
step 2: try to fix the problem.

We seem to be stuck on step 1 with the "Rodney King" approach. Please try to tell the Al Queda, Taliban & suicide bombers that "we must reject hate". Good Luck.
Sadly, step 2 will also be a problem. If a few things in the Koran need to changed, can it be done? No. The Koran says many nice things, but it also says some bad and violent things regarding women & nonbelievers. Some religions allow for discussion and evolution; others are the rigid word of God and cannot be questioned (Islam & Christianity).

So, thanks for the nice thoughts, but some of us are trying to cause real change and progress, even if its unpleasant.

Prejudice against Muslims and prejudice against Jews are not the same thing. They are not in the same league.

It is a fatally false assumption that prejudice, per se, is a bad thing. We are prejudiced against Nazis, against white racists, against black racists, against Communists, against Ku Klux Klan members -- and everyone thinks that is perfectly o.k. And, it is o.k.!!! It is always o.k. to be prejudiced against members of a group and adherents of an ideology whose values are inimical to ours. Not only is it o.k.; but it is morally right.
In the case of Islam, it is clear that Islamic values are inimical to ours. One need only read the Koran, the sayings of Muhammad, Sharia law and the writings of the great Islamic religious authorities, the Cairo Declaration of Human Rights in Islam. When a person says that he/she is Moslem, it is reasonable to infer that this person accepts and promotes the doctrines of Islam which are based on violent religious bigotry toward all non-Moslems. Now, we know that there are many Moslems who do NOT favor those Islamic doctrines. They exist -- just like there were many members of the Nazi party and the Soviet Communist party who did not support the doctrines of those parties. The problem is: how do we know in advance which members of the group truly support the doctrines of the group? We cannot know in advance. That is where prejudice comes in. ALL members of a subversive group should be under suspicion of supporting the doctrines of that group -- until proven otherwise. Failure to exercise proper prejudice and suspicion has already cost us thousands of innocent lives -- think 9/11, Ft. Hood, the London bombing, the Madrid bombing, the Bali bombing, the Mumbai massacre, and so on and so on. Prejudice against members of a group, based on knowledge of the principles of the group, is perfectly reasonable.
Let us work to educate Americans so that the percentage of those prejudiced against Moslems will increase! Those Moslems who do not share the violent religious bigotry of Islam can help us be being vocal about their rejection of those parts of the Koran, Hadith and Sharia which promote violent religious bigotry.
Reasonable prejudice is a matter of life and death. It is elementary self-defense.

Well EP is trying to be egalitarian. The next step will be when he can actually talk the Taliban into believing that dirty Hindu, dirty communist, dirty jew, dirty secularist, dirty westerner, dirty liberal muslim are to be abandoned.

Then, perhaps not only will he take the dirty (group of your choice) (hate language of choice) out of our use, but he will edit it out of the koran (all references to the infidels) or at least relegate the koran to a "sort of" wisdom literature, not really that great you know, nudge nudge.

hariaum

Hate is evil no matter who is doing it and no matter who it is directed to. And anyone who justifies their hate with religion commits a double evil.

No religion advocates hate. Rather, all religions advocate respect, compassion, generosity, and love towards others. That includes Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.

While it is true that some have done evil in the name of Islam, that is not truly Islam. And while some have done evil in the name of Judaism, that is not truly Judaism. Likewise, while some have done evil in the name of Christianity, that is not truly Christianity.

We must get past the fear and ignorance that breeds hate. We must reject hate. We must embrace those of all religions (and those of no religion) with respect and compassion.

And we must not resort to religious bias to avoid dealing with the very real political/social/environmental problems that are the source of the estrangement between peoples and religions. This is true both in the microcosm and in the macrocosm.

I yearn for my good ol' days when I neither knew nor cared about the mythology-based belief system to which my neighbors subscribed. To know the unique aspects of the Baptist belief system was to know some arcane, marginal information safely disregarded in most contexts. Similarly, Muslims appeared in Sinbad and some Peter OToole movie, but could otherwise be safely disregarded on an operational level. Today, however, there are armed Muslim groups seeking to acquire nuclear and biological weapons to destroy the city I live in, and putting bombs in their clothing to kill me while I am on an airplane. To my knowledge, neither the Baptists, the Mormons or the Jews are engaged in this activity, which is known to regular folks as "terrorism" or "war" or "mass murder". So, if you hear people being a bit short with the concept of "Muslim" from time to time, it is for good reason and it is really not their fault.

"....the single highest predictor of prejudice against Muslims is prejudice against Jews."

Unless, of course, you are a Jew and aren't prejudiced against yourself.

Religion can be a tool for spreading goodness as well as fomenting hatred. Hatefull people are found everywhere irrespective of cast and creed. It obvious from the comments of certified haters who pounce on this non partisan article with their anti Islam garbage.

There are hatefull Rabbi's who preach and justify murder, plunder and displacement of Palestinians and then there are warmongering Christian televangelist, the modern day Pope Urban's, with their crusader cries. So its not just only muslims who use the camouflage of religion to sow seeds of hatred. This is a simple fact no sane person can run away from. No need to complicate the easily understandable crux of this article~!

Whether Jewish, Muslim, or Christian (even Mormon) the same god, the god of Abraham is worshipped. Too bad their god is a product of a self-serving and perverted mankind.

And what of people who hate Christians and Jews and other Kafir? Societies predicated upon the notion that their religion is superior to all others are not unique to Christianity.

Confuse correlation with causality, add three parts ethnocentrism, top with frothy headline.

I can't quite place the other ingredients in this pudding... blaming the victim? Jew baiting?

Worldwide there are about 120 Muslims for each Jew.

See this is Exactly the Problem. You have people in here reciting verses from holy books. I dont read the bible, the koran, or the commandments. Im half Indian/half lebanese. I live in america. I have read the bible, but only for HELP. I use it to access my spiritual mind, and to believe in a higher power. I DO NOT USE IT TO DICTATE MY LIFE..... How can something made THOUSANDS of years ago dictate life TODAY. THEY had NO MEDIA back then. The bible meant more to them then EVER SHOULD to us. MOVE ON YOU RADICAL MINDED PEOPLE. The study of religion is used for historical purposes to access the minds of the people BACK THEN. IT should not play a BIG ROLE in your life, unless you are a person in a bad situation, and need a PIECE OF MIND. Im sure that any of (islam,judeisim, or christianity) books will HELP you. In other words if you make more than 60k a year, and live a good life, YOU SHOULD NEVER SEE THE BOOKS, except for sunday, which should be considered a "spiritual excersize" If this happens, all this BS will end.

It is difficult to idealize the state of the world from the current status quo. Hatred is espoused in the Koran despite the public pronouncements of Islam being a "peaceful religion." All the ecumenical-like statements of tolerance and foreswearing violence from Muslim leaders mean nothing unless they and their Muslims co-religionists fight the extremists. How many times have we seen reports of Imams spouting hatred from the pulpits of the world and nothing is done to stop them? The conclusion drawn is obvious: Muslims are too afraid of their co-religionists; or they believe in the hatred espoused as the divine word voiced by their religious leaders.

You can believe the world may one day truly evolve into that ideal state where "the lamb lies down with the lion" in peace and harmony. And it may happen. But even so, when that day comes, I'd rather be the lion.

Tribal bronze age religions appear to me to be a big part of the problem. All religions seem to be opposed to the truly open society. The relative simplicity of Islamic theology--its greater rationality, if I might somewhat abuse the term, compared with, say, trinitarianism--supports a totalitarian vision of theocracy. Divinely led authorities can, of course, never be wrong. (Contrast this view with that of the Founders, who understood that people are fallible and that factions are corrupt and set ambition to check ambition, and created institutional checks to the assumption of total power.) With the recent report that al Qaeda is determined on a MWD attack in the US, it seems that al Qaeda is bent on an apocalyptic confrontation between Islam and the modern world.

I would only point out that in the wake of a large-scale attack on the US, it would loom large in the thinking of whatever militant group eventually came to power that Meccans and Tehranis don't vote in American elections. Also that it is probably a lot easier to break a country than to take it over. There is a lot of anger in the US right now, and another big attack could easily result in a tea-party-type President committed to a fundamentalist apocalypticism. What would be the domestic cost to such a President of striking out against Muslim countries? Zippo, I submit. The fulminating anti-semitism of the Muslim world is not a good sign. Or the know-nothing propaganda of the irresponsible right in the US.

Let's make this as personal as possible. When someone in your synagogue says something ugly about Muslims, know that he is marshaling the forces of anti-Semitism. When someone in your mosque speaks hatefully about Jews, know that he is putting your Muslim children more at risk.

For the purposes of prejudice, the terms 'dirty Muslim' and 'dirty Jew' are virtually interchangeable. I suggest we drop them from our vocabulary. If not for the sake of other people's kids, at least do it for your own.
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Here is the problem with this segment of your analysis. More on the rest at a later date. Mullahs all over the world--in the Middle East, in Asia, Africa, Europe, the Americas, spout antisemitic filth during services.

In fact, I have friends both here and abroad who wait in their cars until the filth part ends so that they can enter the mosque and pray.

This is no secret Eboo, and, sadly, pretending that the situation is otherwise will not change things. How could it? Throughout the MIddle East, Asia, and parts of Africa antisemitism is part of the official discourse, present in local and state-run newspapers, television shows, in films, including the notorious Rothchild nonsense. The Protocols is standard fare.

The ranting against Christians both inside mosques and without, the oppression, the violence in Pakistan, Egypt, etc., is also everywhere present.

No rabbi would last two minutes if he began spouting hate from the "pulpit" against any group on the face of the earth. It may not be. It would be considered a defilement.

When Muslims the world over take that same position, dialogue could open. Unfortunately, those who attempt it are often the victims of oppression, occasionally serious.

In the meantime, Eboo, I would be interested in knowing your thoughts about the displacement, forced exile of the remaining Jews of Yemen.

I can also tell you this. I loathe bigotry with every fiber that comprises my being. HOwever, I long ago recognized that one does not fight fire with a cup of water. For Jews, the house is always on fire or about to be burned.

France will be Judenrein in my lifetime. Jews are slowly leaving England. Why is that Eboo? Let's be friends would be great. But Muslims and others may not keep molesting us in the streets, in newspapers, etc.

Lay down your weapons, and we shall not have to defend ourselves. I know, what the reply will be from some, and, frankly, that is why the situation is all but hopeless.

Is reading the Koran Islamophobia or hating Muslims? No.

The Koran actually states:
Koran chaper 9 verse 5:
"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and kill the nonbelievers wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem."

Major Hasan in Texas was inspired by this part of the Koran, as are millions of others and they have been for centuries. Many other similar teachings from Mohamed and Islamic scholars are written in the Koran and Hadith.
In Islamic law (sharia), the consensus view is that a male apostate must be put to death unless he suffers from a mental disorder or converted under duress. Most Islamic scholars agree that the appropriate punishment for apostasy is beheading. Is it really that bad if someone decides to stop being muslim and convert to another religion?

Muslim-hating or Muslims hating? Read and decide for yourself.

The real problem is too much hating. There's nothing the God says about "go ye forth and hate all my other followers, and unto them make war".

Religious hatred invalidates claims of religious truth. Its an act of anti-faith, and is heretical to Christianity, Judaism, & Islam too.

People often hate the country and the policies of the country and not religion per se. Saudi Arabia is hated by Muslims and Jews alike, and is considered a source of evil and destruction because of its poor records on human rights, and its dictatorial policies.However, a lot of foreigners tend to associate this slave- country with Islam, which is wrong.

"Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples saying, 'The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments; And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues; And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi! Rabbi!!

But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in Heaven.

Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves'."