It is a common mistake by non muslim nations to examine the muslim violence in their own national context.A global context should be extrapolated to draw a broader consensus. Locally, always some grievances are cited by muslims. The muslim nations on the otherhand, dont entertain any legitimate serious concerns of nonmuslims in their nations ever.

Southern Philippines, Southern Thailand are witnessing beheadings from the muslim terrorists, largely ignored by other nations. Muslim terrorism is a global cancer and single explanation like israel as the root cause of terrorism is a joke. Muslims like violence in all spheres of their lives.Firstly with their women being oppressed and their daughters and sisters subjected to honor killings. Once the family members are terrorised to submission, then they extend the peace (sic)in the local community to all muslims by exterminating the liberal muslims and few good natured souls. Finally, they wipe out non muslim minority by sustained persecution and then, finally, export terror out of country. So folks, remember, no quick fix here. Now europe is under seize with these genteel men demanding right to change the european culture. once accomplished that goal, the eyes are set on americas.

Abolish immigration of muslimsas as a starting point and encourage only non muslims to migrate. Demands on muslim nations to constitutionally extend equal rights to all citizens and to accept all faiths as legitimae co habitants of their cultures without any discrimination should be made louder and louder on internatioanal forums.So long as discriminatory practices are allowed in those nations, immigration from them should be curtailed.

kuan preaches viloence and dichotomy between the communities. Mohamad was a typical example of woman abuse and killings of all non muslims. Wahabis are followwing literally in his footsteps. Muslims are most intolerant religion currently. They kill shias, Ahmedias, Bahais, Hindus, Buddists, Christians, Jews whereevr they can. They build mosques in non muslims lands and prevent building of others from building non muslim places of worship in majority muslim lands. Most of the terrorists are muslims. Not all muslims are terrorists, but that doesnt help. Muslims should help nab muslim terrorists. That is the only way to prove they dont foster terrorism and violence

muslims can believe in any nonsense they choose to do so, just as others can believe in any nonsense they choose to do so. The treatment of the non-muslims by the muslims puts a lie to the assertion of any tolerance. Anyway this is my last word in this post of eboo.

page2:

Then you wrote:
The whole planet belongs to Allah and hence only Muslims can be the rulers"

The Muslims believe is a ideology which is based on the revelation. It is birth right of every human being to believe what ever he thinks and to create association to promote his views. Are the Jews not doing so? Are the Indians are less aggressive in pursuing their global domination ambitions when they are heaps of nuclear arsenal. Are the Chinese, Russians Americans and the Europeans do not work for world domination and hold weapons of mass destruction?.
The world financial domination and the talk of a global new world order, are the Muslims hatching conspiracies for such domination.

The sufferings of us humaning beings are evident in this age of progress. The fraud finanicial system has turned a vast majority of people pauper and helpless, while the cunning capatilists are thriving.
Dishonesty and corruption in rampat in every society.Family life fabric is ruined specially in the west. Expliotation throuth sex, gambling and alcohol is taking its toll - people are unhappy still between the plastics in their home and in their hand. new plans to enslave them is being in the offing .With these observations I reject your assertions as void of any merits.

There is no doubt in my mind that Quran is the true Word of Allah which is light and guidance for the whole mankind.

Akafir

Though this forum is not proper to discuss all matters pertaining to Islam as many a things need vast references and details. further not knowing the proper identity of the person we are talking to makes the matter unimportant.Having said that, however I like to refute your perceptions about Quran and Muslims.

You wrote:
"The Quran is book of the 7th century and it reflects the knowledge of that century".

Quran is sure a guidance for the whole mankind for all the times to come. It is not a book for the muslims only. The basics of Quran remain relevant as universal truths. What change you see, when one believes in the 7th century that God is one and Muhammad PBUH is his prophet and the same thing is believed by the 1.5 billion muslims on the face of this earth today?.
What wrong do you see in practicing a charity of 2.5% on the accumulated wealth then and now?. What pain it give to the others when muslims fasts for 30 days in a year as they use to fast in the "7th century".Quran prohibits gambling, alcohol, interest and codify many social issues which elevate a person from the bottom of ignorance to the honor of the best creation of Allah. Do you think these thing are irrelevant today?.

You wrote:
People then used to believe that the semen and prostatic fluids originated much higher in the body than they do now."

Scholars have commented on them differently. You have acknowledged the limits of knowledge but still you think what you know is ultimate.I can add my own views in this matter is, that the whole trunk and the mind is involved in this process through they are produced in testes.
Maududi writes:
3"Sulb" is the backbone and "tara'ib"the breast- bones, i.e. the ribs. Since the procreative fluid in both man and woman is discharged from that part of the body which is between the back and the breast, it is said that man has been created from the fluid issuing out froth between the back and the breast. This fluid is produced even in case the hands and feet are cut off. Therefore, it is not correct to say that it issues out from the whole body of man. In fact, the principal organs of the body are its source and all these are located in the trunk. The brain has not been mentioned separately because the back-bone is that part of the brain through which connection between the body and the brain is established".
The real matter is in what context this is mentioned and that is the Existence of Allah Almighty.

Hitman2:

The examples you bring up are all that the thinkers of the 9th and 10th century brought up. They have been discussed and understood. The world has moved onto the 21st century. Unfortunately, for everyone, the muslims are mired in about the 9th century. Yes you are a believer and you are most welcome to it.
The Quran is book of the 7th century and it reflects the knowledge of that century. And it has been shown to be incorrect. People then used to believe that the semen and prostatic fluids originated much higher in the body than they do now. Allah obviously did not know and stated the knowledge of the physicians of that time. It is as simple as that. You can believe what ever you like but do not expect other people to believe the nonsense with you.
Quran is filled with nonsense and if it was so easy to understand why is it so easily misunderstood. Why is it that Al-Qaeda and the head chopping muslims around the world quote it to justfy their violence?
Again you are welcome to believe that the quran is the literal word of the all powerful and all knowing God, but do all other people to what they choose to believe especially in their own lands. But then you quote Mawdudi who said and you quoted that the non-muslims (Kaafirs) spread mischeif on this earth and hence should not be allowed to even rule themselves. The whole planet belongs to Allah and hence only Muslims can be the rulers. Did he misunderstand the Quran?

Akafir

Sure! no place to discuss philosophy. Also religion do not expect that a common man should know logic,reasoning, rational and irrational. All that is needed, is simple
"common sense".
As I have said earlier, Quran is not a book to teach science or arts.It is meant for all mankind hence it is simple and can be understood even by a person with simple common sense.
You have not answered my questions:
"Can you tell me what are the parameters of your "rationality"?
Is there any limitations to such rationality?"
Let me say, Someone comes and tells you that fire is something which burns, this is your knowledge through hearing, but if you see a fire with your own eyes your knowledge in more firm,
now if you put your hand into the fire and comes to knows how the burning felt,then this is the firmest knowledge.You can transfer this information but not the pain of how you felt it.
And when a piece of iron is placed into the fire, after sometimes it takes the shape of the fire, then you cannot distinguish between fire and the iron. such is the case of a true believer and his belief. I wonder how you can compell such a person with your critism of Quran. His believing is not just knowledge or observatin but experience.This is the degree of his knowledge. This belief is stronger than your critism.
I personally note that no miracle is needed to believe is God.If you have an eye each and everything is a miracle.
If someone comes from another planet and I show him a small seed, pointing to a tree, that it come out of this small seed, he will not believe.
Your knowledge may answer how, but not why.

The objections that you raise about the verses of Quran are so hollow that one can only marvel the "rationality" of the objector.I can go into long discusion on the issues raise but this is intellectual dishonesty to forget the actual purpose of these verses.

Akafir

Sure! no place to discuss philosophy. Also religion do not expect that a common man should know logic,reasoning, rational and irrational. All that is needed, is simple
"common sense".
As I have said earlier, Quran is not a book to teach science or arts.It is meant for all mankind hence it is simple and can be understood even by a person with simple common sense.
You have not answered my questions:
"Can you tell me what are the parameters of your "rationality"?
Is there any limitations to such rationality?"

Let me say, Someone comes and tell you that fire burns, this is your knowledge through hearing, but if you see a fire with your own eyes your knowledge in firm,
but if you put your hand into the fire and knows how the burning felt this is firmest knowledge.You can transfer this information but not the how you felt.
And when a piece of iron is put into the fire after sometimes it takes the shape of the fire then you cannot distinguish between fire and the iron. such is the case of a true believer. I wonder how you can compell such a person with your critism of Quran when his believing is not just knowledge,observatin but experience.This is the degree of his knowledge. This belief is stronger than your critism.

I personal note that no miracle is needed to believe is God.If you have an eye each and everything is a miracle.
If someone comes from another planet and I show him a small seed, pointing to a tree, that it come out of this small seed, he will not believe.
Your knowledge may answer how, but not why.

@Hitman2:
I am not sure what you refer to when you say I hide many a things.
Is this the place to learn philosophy? I do not think so, but I will give you a simple "common sense" answer to your question about the chair.

The chair does not exist before it is made by the carpenter. The concept of the chair existed. The design of the chair existed. Just as the finished chair does not spring into its final configuration but does so over time. Similarly the concept does not arise instantaneously and nor does the design. They go through iterations. If you look at the work of any artisan who creates new deigns you can see the progression of their work. It is silly to confuse the material finished chair with its initial material components or with its initial hazy concept or with its design.

Man does not know many a things. Most likely the laws and facts that we do not know far exceed the little we do know. It is far more honest to say "I don't know" than to buy into fairy tales invented by our ancestors among others and to enforce them as true knowledge. The entire enterprise of science is built upon figuring out, discovering, and tackling questions at the boundary of what we do know and what we don't.

Akafir:

So you hide many a things! okay this your discrition.

Can you tell me what are the parameters of your "rationality"?
Is there any limitations to such rationality?
If a carpenter designs a unique piece of a chair and then make it according to the design and you happen to see this unique chair. You can see and touch this chair and tell about it and the material that it is made of. This is what your rational knowledge tell you.
Can you tell if this chair was present or not before it came into being? if so where?
How can you know it using your rational knowledge?

Akafir:

Can you tell be what are the parameters of your "rationality"?

Is there any limitations to such rationality?

If a carpenter design a unique piece of a chair and then make it according to the design and to happen to see this unique chair. You can see and touch this chair and tell about it and the material that is made of. This is your rational knowledge.
Can you tell if this chair was present or not before it came into being? if so where?
How can you know it using your rational knowledge?

Hitman2:

"I have quoted what Islam teaches.
I challenge you to show what to believe in."

Quran is what Islam teaches, and the actions of the muslims show what those teachings amount to.
I believe in reason and logic. Modern knowledge relies upon science and there is a lot being discovered about the basis of ethics and morality in humans that is based upon our biology. The Golden rule appears to be something that we as humans have evolved with and it is intrinsic to us.

@Hitman2:

Not many Kaafirs know that Tafheem ul Quran was by Mawdudi. However, many more Kaafirs know who Mawdudi and Qutb are after 9/11. So when you quote a shining Luminary of the Jihadis, it is useful to point that out for the Kaafirs.

Examining any Religious claims including Islam's and it central document, the Quran, is essential. Muslims claim Quran is a Miracle, and it itslef claims that there are no errors in it. Well that is obviously incorrect. Now what a believing Muslim does with it is entirely upto him. As we agreed upon earlier, a believer is very different from a non-believer. A believer facing an obvious error in his faith will bury his head in the sand and ignore anything and everything that is threatening to his faith. That is why Quran tells its believers not to Question. Don't think, Don't use your reasoning and logic is the command. Those who rely on faith, do not have to worry, for they do not listen to their reason.

Akfir and his clan

I have quoted what Islam teaches.

I challenge you to show what to believe in.

You cannot hide your stupidity by just attacking Islam and do not come up with your own alternative.

Blessings of Islam

Quotes:

Besides endowing man with the capacity to acquire knowledge, the faculty to think and ponder, and the sense of distinguishing right from wrong, God has granted him with a certain amount of freedom of will and action. In this freedom lies man’s real trial; his knowledge, his wisdom, his power of discrimination, and his freedom of will and action are all being tried and tested. In this trial and test man has not been obliged to adopt any particular course, for by compulsion the very object of the trial would have been defeated. Evidently if in an examination you are compelled to write a certain answer to a question, the examination will be of no use. Your merit can be properly judged only if you are allowed to answer the questions freely, according to your own knowledge and understanding. If your answer is correct you will succeed, and will get access to future progress; and if your answer is wrong, you will fail, and your failure will bar the way to further progress. Similar is the situation which man faces in the world. God has given him freedom of will and action so that he may remain free to choose whatever attitude in life he likes and considers proper for himself-Islam or Kufr. Now, on the one hand, there is a man who under-stands neither his own nature nor that of the universe. He errs in recognizing his real Master and in knowing His attributes, and misuses his freedom by pursuing the path of disobedience and revolt. such a man has failed in the trial of his knowledge, intelligence, and duty-consciousness. He has failed to come up to the standard and does not deserve a better a destiny than the one discussed above.

Quotes:

Do not think that by committing Kufr man does or can do any harm to God Almighty. No, not the least. An insignificant speck on the face of a tiny ball in this limitless universe that man is, what harm can he do to the Lord of the universe whose dominions are so infinitely vast that we have not yet been able to explore their boundaries even with the help of the most powerful telescope; Whose power is so great that myriad's of heavenly bodies, like the Earth, the Moon, the sun and the stars, are at His bidding, whirling link tiny balls; Whose wealth is so boundless that He is the sole Master of the whole universe; and who provides for all and needs none to provide for Him. Man’s revolt against Him can do Him no harm; on the other hand by his disobedience, man treads the path of utter ruin and disgrace.

The inevitable consequence of this revolt and denial of reality is a failure in the ultimate ideals of life. such a rebel will never find the thread of real knowledge and vision; for the knowledge that fails to reveal its own creator can reveal no truth. Such a man’s intellect and reason always run astray; for reason which errs in knowing its own creator cannot illumine the paths of life. Such a man will meet with failures in all the affairs of his life. His morality, his civic and social life, his struggle for livelihood and his family life, in short, his entire living, will be upset. He will spread confusion and disorder on the earth. He will without the least compunction, shed blood, violate other men’s rights, be cruel to them, and create disorder and destruction in the world. His perverted thoughts and ambitions, his blurred vision and disturbed scale of values, and his evil-spelling activities would make life bitter for him and for all around him. Such a man would destroy the calm and poise of life on earth. And in the life hereafter he would be held guilty for the crimes he committed upon his nature, his powers, and resources. Every organ of his body-his very brain, eyes, nose, hands, and feet-will complain against the injustice and cruelty he had done unto them. every tissue of his being will decry him before God Who, as the very fountain of justice, will award him the fullest punishment he deserves. This is the inglorious consequence of Kufr. It leads to the blind alley of utter failure, here and hereafter.

Quotes:

THE NATURE OF KUFR

In contrast to the man described above, there is the man who, although a born Muslim and unconsciously

Remaining one throughout his life, does not exercise his faculties of reason, intellect, and intuition for recognizing his Lord and creator and misuses his freedom of choice by choosing to deny Him. Such a man becomes an unbeliever-in the language of Islam a kafir.

Kufr literally means ‘to cover’ or ‘to conceal’. The man who denies God is called kafir (concealer) because he conceals by his disbelief what is inherent in his nature and embalmed in his own soul-for, indeed, his nature is instinctively imbued with ‘Islam’. His whole body, every sinew and every fibre, functions in obedience to that instinct. Each and every particle of existence-living or lifeless-functions in accordance with ‘Islam’ and is fulfilling the duty that has been assigned to it. But the vision of this man has been blurred, his intellect has been befogged , and he is unable to see the manifest. His own nature has become concealed from his eyes and he thinks and acts in utter disregard of it. The reality become estranged form him and he gropes in the dark such is the nature of kufr.

Akafir

When I myself said I am quoting from tafheem then what sense it makes to brag that you know it is quoted from Maudodi.
You are very stupid, thinking that you can create doubts about the quranic verses and thus change the minds of muslims.
Just critisizing any subject is an negative activity.
You have anything which you offer as an alternative? no not at all except boosting upon your sick rationality which still has not achived any adulthood and maturity.
I think this is just a useless attempt by you and seems you are addictied to write on the blogs as a paid worker of ail sina's organisaton supported by the Jews.

Introduction to Tafheem means that Hitman2 is now quoting Mawdudi, the founder of Jamaat-e-Islami. You may read the translation at
http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/thebook.htm

Mawdudi was all for real Jihad against the Kaafirs around the globe. He expounded that only Muslims can be rulers of any state and non-muslims were only fit to be ruled because they were corrupt and they could only spread chaos. Maududi is a favorite of the Islamist.

@Hitman2: Quran is not a book of science but it is the word of Allah but how can the All knowing Allah not know the source of semen and prostatic fluids? If you ever find yourself wondering then think what was the prevailing knowledge about procreation. It is known that it was the Ancient Greek Galen and his work on medicine that had been widely translated and available in the middle east well before Muhammad. You may want to read what Galen thought was the source of the procreating fluids. It is a fascinating read, and you may even discover where this notion of between the spine and ribs comes from. So much for the All knowing and all powerful Allah.

Not for you kafir but for those to whom you want to distract.

Quote fm intro to Tafheem:

The AIM and OBJECT of the revelations is to invite man to that Right Way and to present clearly the Guidance which he has lost because of his negligence or has perverted by his wickedness.
If the reader keeps these three basic things in mind, he will find that in this Book there is no incongruity in the style, no gap in the continuity of the subject and no lack of interconnection between its various topics. As a matter of fact, this Book is not irrelevant anywhere with regard to is Subject, its Central Theme and its Aim. From its very beginning to its end, the different topics it deals with are so intimately connected with its Central Theme that they may be likened to the beautiful gems of the same necklace, despite their different colours and sizes. The Qur'an keeps the same object in view, whether it is relating the story of the creation of the earth or of the Heavens or of man or is referring to the manifestations in the universe or stating events from human history. As the aim of the Qur'an is to guide man and not to teach nature study or history or philosophy or any other science or art, it does not concern itself with these latter subjects. The only thing with which it is concerned is to expound the Reality, to remove misunderstandings and misconceptions about it, to impress the Truth upon the minds, to warn them of the consequences of wrong attitudes and to invite humanity to the Right Way. The same is true of the criticism of the creeds, of the moral systems, of the deeds of men and communities and of its disussions of the problems of metaphysics etc. That is why it states or discusses or cites a thing only to the extent relevant to its aims and objects and leaves out unnecessary and irrelevant details and turns over and over again to its Central Theme and to its invitation round which every other topic revolves. When the Qur'an is studied in this light, no doubt is left that the whole of it is a closely reasoned argument and there is continuity of subject throughout the Book.

Akafir

Your rationality seems to fell sick.
Foolish man, never ever anyone claimed that Quran is a book to teach biology and science.
As you claim you are a mullah turned crack,thats why you want the others to understand the details of Quranic verses while you yourself are a kafir.
I can only take pity on your rationality.

Hitman2:
"Developmental"? Nourishment site?

How you contort rationality to justify your faith! See what Allah says:

Khuliqa min ma-in dafiqin
or literally:
He was created from water pouring/flowing forcefully.

Yakhruju min bayni alssulbi waalttara-ibi
It emerges/appears from between the spine and the rib bones.

The verb is active. PourING, FlowING FORCEFULLY. Allah is talking about the water in an adult and not developmentally. The water "Emerges" or "Appears". Note the tense. Do you know Arabic. See the tense in the Arabic.

Developementally? The words do not even remotely imply a location years in the past. Developmentally is as lame a justification as muslims can find. Developmentally the testes start between the ribs and the spine. Do you realise how silly and how absurd these justifications appear to one who examine with a clear logic. This is the song and dance of morons like Zakir Naik. And the site of nourishment and blood supply notion is beyond silliness. That is a sign of simple desperation to support a silly argument.

You show why it is going to be nearly impossible for the believers of the Quran to escape the irrationality of the 7th century mind. The christian fundamentalist are in the same quandry, but at least most of them have a way out because Bible is an "inspired" word but for the Muslims Quran is the literal word of Allah.

You may think what you like of me and whether I am paid or how much shame I have. The fact is that Mullahs can no longer intimidate by threats of violence or by violence the questioning and examination of Islam. It is what the other readers of my posts take away from them is what counts for me. I used to be a Mullah myself, and I have been able to open the eyes of few other mullahs as well. I have great faith in the human rationality. Be careful, you never know when reason may even wake up in you.

Akafir

I know it is useless to go into details with a person like you who comes to these websites just to distract the truth seekers.
Still here is explaination to refute you.

The seminal fluid (semen) is produced in a pair of testis (the male reproductive organ} situated in scrotum (coverings round the testis). Of course in an adult person the testis are not situated in between the back bone and chest bone but these have an embryological relation (developmental)
to a site which is situated "in between the back bone and ribs": According to the research done in the field of Embryology (science of human development) the pair of testis which produce seminal fluid, start developing at lumber region, during intrauterine life i.e. the time when the child is in the womb of mother. This area is exactly in-between the backbone and the ribs. Latter on as child develops the testis descends down and before the time the child is born, the testis has descended to scrotum (coverings around the testis). But their control i.e. the nerve supply remains at the same lumber region through out the life of the person. Further to say whenever there is any injury inflicted to that region, the sexual act is lost. Secondly the nourishment for the testis i.e. the blood supply also come from the same lumber region through out the life of a person, that to if hampered at any time results into loss of the function of the testis. Meaning there by although the testis descend down but their control and nourishment remain at a site which is "in-between the back bone and ribs.
( ref: Langman Embryology and Grey's Human Anatomy

People like you are shameless because they come to write here with a agenda, probably paid .I find this site is full with your critism of Islam from months and months.
Only a paid worker can devote so much time.

I refute your claim that your type of kafirs are 80% of world population.
You are pygmies in your comprehension and it is true example that they are deaf blind and dumb.

Quran is the true words of Allah SWT.

Hitman2,
you can blame the crooks and their intentional twisting of the words, but that is not what Allah says in his Quran.
002.006 to 002.010
YUSUFALI: As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.

Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).

Of the people there are some who say: "We believe in Allah and the Last Day;" but they do not (really) believe.

Fain would they deceive Allah and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves, and realise (it) not!

In their hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease: And grievous is the penalty they (incur), because they are false (to themselves).

006.046
YUSUFALI: Say: "Think ye, if Allah took away your hearing and your sight, and sealed up your hearts, who - a god other than Allah - could restore them to you?" See how We explain the signs by various (symbols); yet they turn aside.

016.107
YUSUFALI: This because they love the life of this world better than the Hereafter: and Allah will not guide those who reject Faith.
016.108
YUSUFALI: Those are they whose hearts, ears, and eyes Allah has sealed up, and they take no heed.

If some one really and truly does not believe in Muhammad and his Quran ( mind you 80% of humanity does not ), and genuinely rejects Islam, Quran says "Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing", and not only that but "In their hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease". Tell me how can anyone blame a Kaafir who really and truly sees Islam as wrong and from the depths of his being cannot honestly accept see the Quran as a revelation? And then Allah is going to punish this honest Kaafir for rejecting the Quran? That is what Islam says!!!

As for your filthy water goes, the Quran says:
086.005
YUSUFALI: Now let man but think from what he is created!
086.006
YUSUFALI: He is created from a drop emitted-
086.007
YUSUFALI: Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs:

Tell me which emitted drop proceeds from between the backbone and the ribs. Prostatic fluids does not proceed from between the backbone and the ribs. How can anyone with the most elementary knowledge of physiology accept the nonsense in the Quran. Now I have read the absolute nonsense that many muslims (including Zakir of Peace TV) have spouted trying to explain this obvious error in basic physiology. An all knowing Allah does not know where the emitted drop originates!! Amazing.

Baum
It is the same kind of fear which stops anyone to commit crime in a state or in a society.
There are various type of people, some of them will play havoc if law is not enforced and they are not penalised.
Allah is the King of Kings and as some crime have larger concequences than the life itself that is why on the Day of Judgement they will meet their final Justice.
Those who have done good deeds will go to the paradise and bad ones to Hell.
After all lucifiers who have spoiled life of many, on the earth need to be punished.
We must fear Him and do the good deeds we must fear the Last Day of Judgement.
The one you are waiting for is the coming of Jesus who will bring peace and justice on the earth but then after he will die the earth will againt come into the hands of worst people ever born, the kafirs and mushriks and over them the Dooms day will come.

Baum

It is the same kind of fear which stops you to commit crime in a state or a society.
There are various type of people, some of them will play havoc if law is not enforced and they are not penalised.
Allah is the King of Kings and as the some crime have larger concequences than the life itself that why on the Day of Judgement they will meet their final Justice.
Those who have done good deeds will go to the paradise and bad ones to Hell.
After lucifies who have spoiled life of many on the earth need to be punished.
We must fear Him and do the good deeds we must fear the Last Day of Judgement.
The one you are waiting is the coming of Jesus who will bring peace and justice on the earth but then after he will die the earth will againt come into the hands of worst people ever born, the kafirs and mushriks and over them the Dooms day will occur.

Akafir

The crooks has a habbit to twist the meanings out of letters, their context and sprit, and they do so intentionally. It is said for such people that they are blind deaf and dumb and will go to hell because of their criminal deeds, do you think there should be any place else for them? What is irrational about this?

Of course this is irrational that a person who was in the beginning a drop of unclean water,which then remain in the darkness of his mother's womb for 9 months and then came out, having God's gifts of ears eyes and heart, instead of being thankful to Allah Almight , he began to question His existance using his pseudo rationality - surely this is amazing.
By the way are you sure you have achieved maturity and adulthood in your rationality?

Don't you find much amazement in those pagan religions where the woman goes to worship the penis - commonly known as shivlung. And how she worship i need not to tell you.
Most stupid man always imagine he is very wise and rational. Hope this is not the case with you.

Akafir

crooks has a habbit to twist the essence out of letters, their context and sprit, and they do this intentionally. It is said for such people that they are blind deaf and dumb and will go to hell because of their criminal deeds, do you think there should be any place else for them? What is irrational about this?

course this is irrational that a person who was in the beginning a drop of unclean filthy water,which then stayed in the darkness of his mother's womb for 9 months when came out, having Gods gifts of ears eyes and heart, instead of being thankful to Allah Almight , began to question His existance using his fake rationality - surely this is amazing.
By the way are you sure you have achieved maturity and adulthood in your rationality?

Dont you find much amazement in those pagan religion where the woman goes to worship the penis - commonly known as shivlung.
Most stupid man always imagine he is very wise and rational. Hope this is not the case with you.

hitman2

You wrote, "2. This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah."

I was wondering what is it that you think "fear Allah" means?

In the bible, "Fear of the Lord", means reverence and awe, it has absolutely nothing to do with being afraid of God, actually we are to look at God as Friend, Father, Brother, Guide, Helper, to name a few.

And we are to look at ALL other people as our brothers and sisters.

God created absolutely All of us and All of everything, that is why God has a Plan which is for ALL OF GOD'S PEOPLE and all people are God's people.

God is NOT the egotistical piece of garbage that some seem to think God to be.

God became One of us because God cares for ALL of us.

See you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom, the new heavens and the new earth.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Hitman2:

The verses can be explained satisfactorily only if you suspend "rational thinking" and give over to "blind" faith. Allah is a strange deity indeed who curses the majority of his own creation (Kaafir are 80% of humanity still), and who promises to eternally torture in the most horrible of manner all the kaafirs. Not only that he admits as you have quoted that he "seals the hearts, and ears, and covers the eyes" of the Kaafirs so they cannot but be Kaafirs, and he can mislead because he has absolute power over them. Afterwards he can turn around and torture them for eternity. Amazing! It is more amazing that there are humans who claim to be rational but still buy into such nonsense. Indeed there is a difference between the believers and the rationalists.

akafir

In the very beginning I ready mentioned you that Believer and non-believers cannot be equated and there is no comparision between light and darkness or between live or dead.

The points you have raised quoting from Quran can be answered most satisfactorily but it is needless as it depends upon the intentions of an inquirer whether he is truth seeker or he just want to laid allegations.

You forget to quote these verses from the Quran:

Yousaf Ali translation:Chapter Two

2. This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah.

3. Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;

4. And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter.

5. They are on (true) guidance, from their Lord, and it is these who will prosper.

6. As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.

7. Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).
.......
10. In their hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease: And grievous is the penalty they (incur), because they are false (to themselves).

11. When it is said to them: "Make not mischief on the earth," they say: "Why, we only Want to make peace!"

12. Of a surety, they are the ones who make mischief, but they realise (it) not.

Hitman2:

Divine revelation does not encourage human beings to use their brains.

002.108
YUSUFALI: Would ye question your Messenger as Moses was questioned of old? but whoever changeth from Faith to Unbelief, Hath strayed without doubt from the even way.

005.101
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if ye ask about things when the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you, Allah will forgive those: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing.

005.102
YUSUFALI: Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith.

You can read all the tafsirs on these verses and it amounts to firstly the eternal question that no one has answered unambiguously "What is the proof that Allah even exists?". That question is being asked even today and there is no satisfactory answer except the believers cite their faith. All the believers of all the dead Gods have always cited thei r faith in their Gods. The last two verses are particular to Islam where believers are specifically told not to question the rules and laws of Allah. Allah wanted humans to pray 50 times a day and it is only the intervention of the Nabi that "burden" was reduced to five times a day. Think for a second what the verses imply and think on the implication of what examples the Tafseers use to explain the verses!!! Simply th e believers are discouraged to question the Quran in any real meaningful way for they may get in trouble with Allah.

As far as the scientific spirit was born as a result of the imperitive by the Quran, and the inductive method blossomed among the Arabs first is a canard that is taught to the muslims by their elders. It has very little basis in fact. A lot of the scientific method cited for the Muslim scientists turns out to be translations of earlier works which were not credited to the original authors. Example: Arabic nuemerals were from south indian hindu mathematicians and the zero (or the arabic zarra) was also the invention of the hindus. Similarly, much of Al-jabr's work, or the optics of Al-Haytham is known to contain earlier works without due credit being given to the original authors. That is not to say that Aljabr or AlHaytham did not contribute to their field of science. They did. As an aside, all ancient scientist that originate in the lands ruled by the muslims now are referred to as "muslim" scientists although it is not clear in many cases whether they were muslims or not. Many lived in fear of their lives as heretics and "Kaafirs". Example there is still argument on whether Haytham was a muslim arab or a magi persian.

But I do agree with you that a believer is different from a non-believer. I know, because it was very very difficult for me to cast off the very debilitating effects of belief to become a non-believer.

so typical.

Poor hitman.

Can't defend his own beliefs so he has to cut down somebody else's. Not that you've studied them, not that you asked my what I personally believe, though you claim knowledge of what I believe, not that you care about discourse.

cowardly bullying is what you call dialogue.

I must conclude that muslims are so brain washed that they spout whatever their imam tells them. Since they can't question the koran, they put down everything else.

hitman,

you are reading this. Are you willing to stand up and say, whenever a book says god hates, that you will disavow that god? Why can't you disavow a god that hates? If you can't disavow a god that hates, then why should anyone love you or the religion you belong to? If a hateful god is one you worship, why shouldn't we wipe you out?

Are you too cowardly to stand up for what is right?

hariaum

I came across a commentary that asks a powerful question:"Why do some Americans support Islam?" I think everyone, including Mr. Patel, should consider the rational of this commentary.

Link: http://www.sodahead.com/religion/why-do-some-americans-support-islam-a-religion-that-clearly-encourages-terrorism/question-818589/

This is what you believe in:

Jagannath is the god enshrined in the famous Hindu temple at Puri. Sankarachariya, the spiritual head of the present Hindus of India, is the devotee of Jagannath of Puri. Hundreds of measures of rice and dal are cooked here daily to feed the thousands of worshippers.

At the Jaya-Vijiya gate of this temple various type of sexual orgies of the god Jagannath can be seen sculptured on granite stones. On the outer walls of this temple are life-size sculptures of the 64 types of sexual mating of men and women as described in the Kamasutra of Vatsyayana.

Krishna is the 9th incarnation of Mahavishnu. Like Jesus Christ, Krishna was born as the “son of man” at Ambadi among cowherds. Although he had sixteen thousand and eight wives, Krishna did not let other women go free. Once, when he saw some Gopi women bathing in the river Kalindi, Krishna carried away their clothes from the bank of the river, and got on a nearby tree to feast his eyes on the Gopi women bathing in the nude. He returned their dresses only after each of them came out of the water and worshipped him so that he could see their nude bodies in full. It is claimed that Krishna was so potent that he could satisfy all his 16008 wives at the same time.

Indra is the head of all gods. Amarawati was his celestial residence. Arjun was born to Indra as a result of his clandestine adultery with Pandu’s wife, he had no hesitation in committing adultery with the wives of other men. One day when Indra saw Ruchi, the beautiful wife of Devasarma, he became extremely passionate and wanted to seduce her. But Ruchi chased Indra out ,and he had to go away disappointed

God Shiva had two wives-Ganga and Parwati. It was while Shiva was frolicking and making love with Parwati in the forest in the form of elephants that Ganapati, the god with the head of an elephant was born. On another occasion when Shiva was frolicking with Parwati in the form of a monkey, Hanuman the monkey god was born.

Once when Parwati was away, Shiva had sexual inter course with a woman called Madhura, who came to Kailas to worship him.

that last sentence should read "agree or disagree"

AKafir

Human reason and spirituality are not necessarily contradictory. Most of the world's religions say to use observation and deduction to understand the creation. Most of the world's religions use the personal relationship of God as more important than a book or a savior or a prophet. Most of the world's religions consider scientific reasoning, empirical spirituality, personal empiricial exercises, skepticism towards self cognition, as a normal part of the spiritual process.

The idea of mono-ideology is that this is not the case. These religions believe that truth can only be known in the church or the umma. The minority of the world's religions believe this. But it is a powerful tool for building alliances and oppressive militaries, crusades, jihads, etc thus it serves the purposes of the powerful well to create such superstition. In the meanwhile, the other world religions get maligned and thus those people who would be seeking for the Truth as God stop. The failure on the spiritual level of mono-ideology is that it stops rational, intelligent, brilliant humanity from even trying to see the supreme reality. (And though mono-ideological thinking shows up all over the world, the koran and bible re-inforce it and thus a dogmatically opposed to science... and the personal relationship with god - as the muslims of Pakistan are experiencing the condition that they are not muslim enough for the islamists)

(not that I think you and I agree but I wanted to add this side note to your comment)

hariaum

Hitman2,

Ghazali,the most respected muslim scholar,rejected Human Intellectual.
Did muslims use ever or are they using their Cognitive Mind now ?
Islam/Submission refuses Evolution/Science.Some muslims dont know what Science is.They think *We slept as Ape and We got up as Human Being*No,Evolution is not so.Evolution happened within,at least,Two Million years(I mean Human Evolution).

Was there any University(did muslims know what University was) in Umayyad/Muslim invaded Spain.Europe learned Renaissance from muslim invaded Spain,but,muslims in Middle East couldnt learn anything.Is this reasonable.

Five times arabic(although you are not arab) worship/pray in a day,paralyze Brain and One can not use Cognitive Intellectual.
If you(certain muslims) continue to deceive yourself,you can never learn what Science is(such as today).

Hitman quotes:
“It was the Qur'anic emphasis on observation and experience, as well as its stress on the
concrete and the finite, which gave rise to the scientific method of inquiry. The scientific spirit was born as
a result of the imperative by the Qur'an to give up all superstitious and fanciful beliefs, to rely on the senses
and the faculty of reason for gaining knowledge of the material world, and to contemplate the physical and
natural phenomena because these are signs of Almighty.”

The Quran had more than any other source perpetrated superstitions. Talking donkeys, ants and birds as well as flying mules and scheming Jinni is your idea of observation and critical thinking? Is the using of the left wings of flies or the urine of camels as medicines a result of objective and systematic research? Where does the faculty of reason involved in any of this? Next time a plague hits your miserable lands, we should let you use your medicines to save your sorry behinds.

Akafir

The issue is not that of supremacy of human reasoning over divine revelation.
Divine revelation encourgages human beings to use their cognitive intellectual and cogatative faculties to know and to believe.
Quran itself is not a book to teach science but it encourages all such persuits and is not at all in clash with the rationalities of modern science.
In the word of Dr Asrar Ahmad:
"It was the Qur'anic emphasis on observation and experience, as well as its stress on the
concrete and the finite, which gave rise to the scientific method of inquiry. The scientific spirit was born as
a result of the imperative by the Qur'an to give up all superstitious and fanciful beliefs, to rely on the senses
and the faculty of reason for gaining knowledge of the material world, and to contemplate the physical and
natural phenomena because these are signs of Almighty Allah (SWT). It was under the influence of such
Qur'anic teachings that the inductive method of inquiry blossomed among the Arabs, before being carried
through the universities in Muslim Spain into Europe, paving the way for the Renaissance in Europe".

I can only add that while we disagree on the basics it is fruitless to ponder upon the details of this subject. A believer is
absolutely different from a non-believer.

An interesting filim, I'm told, about gays in Islam "A Jihad for Love," can, I hear, be downloaded. At all events, here is a Wikipedia link for any who might be interested.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Jihad_for_Love

Hitman2: Only muslims themselves will decide what Islam will be in the future. Most muslims rejected Muhammad Asad's translation of the Quran because he was charged to take the line of the mutazilah. The argument between rationality and faith had been settled in the 9th century and faith had won. It is now upto the muslims themselves to see whether they can engage and see how to deal with the rationality of modern science. Kaafirs around the world have more or less have accepted the supremecy of rationality and relegated faith to subservient role. Muslims are having a problem because the tradition of the last 1000 years all enforce the unreliability of rationality in Islam. So how do you now suddenly pivot and accept the supremacy of "human reasoning" over divine revelation?

Hitman: "Kafir, arif2 abhab etc etc - ONE and the SAME person with different guises."

AKafir is the only ID I have ever posted under.
Ali Sina's website has its uses but I don't agree with its central thesis. I don't agree with Arif2 that Islam will implode. Religion has survived for thousands of years because it very likely is useful for human society. However, religions do die and it is worth knowing about "The Graveyard of the Gods" by Mencken. All religions are being challenged by Science, and the silly attempt by some muslims to claim that Quran codes the results of modern science merely emphasizes the claims where Quran disagrees with modern science, and convincingly proves that Quran cannot be the word of God. If Islam will not adapt to science and modern science it will become the belief of nuts and fanatics. One finds fanatic believers in all religions but it is Islam that is producing fanatical suicidal bombers and promising that they will start using nuclear or biological weapons if and when they get hold of them. I have no doubt that they will. It really is just a matter of time. I shudder to think what the reaction of the non-muslims will be when the first nuclear dirty bomb is exploded by a muslim jihadi.

I also wonder, what will controlling airport security and avoiding the manipulation of western ideals help the people of Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Malyasia, etc suffering from terrorism. Perhaps these people would be benefited by the expansion of western ideals that place checks on extremism by open dialogue, removal of religion from government, protection of individual rights, etc. Perhaps the heartland of terrorism is the ignorance that the people teach themselves, not the response of the outside world.

along this line, how is it that the muslims of Pakistan deserve the killing by islamists? Just because they want to promote the education of women, they want to play volleyball, participate in international levels of cricket, have open and free debate about the utility or disutility of the koran. Or was it because they kept interering with Saudi, Iraqi, Iranian governance; isn't that the excuse of the islamic attacks on the US, India, African groups, European cartoonists...

hariaum

hariaum

Hitman 2 says those against islam are children. Therefore H2 believes that some a better than others. As a muslim he believes that we can judge who is a good man and who is not. (Yet others can not judge the muslims who kill children, funny)

Then Hitman, and any other defender of the koran: where is your Gandhi?, where is you ML King, where is you Mandela, where is your Aung Suu Kyi, where is your Seneca, your Socrates, your Einstein, where is you Dalai lama? These people rose to prominance within there own communities calrifying the power of faithful ahimsa. Why haven't those people arisen in the middle east? perhaps it is because the ideology prevents it, certainly if you believe that all humans are equal (as it seems that hitman2 does not) then these pillars of human peace and God's love on the earth should be matched within islamic history: I am open to reading about these people, particularly those that succeeded in history in an islamic society.

hariaum

Kafir, arif2 abhab etc etc - ONE and the SAME person with different guises.

Can you give me any website where I can see the picture of your king of liers -
Ali sina. What a hiding creeper? what a facticious work that you people are producing on the internet. You do have any moral grounds to stick to.
Allegations and accusations - that is what you know.

Islam is actually dead, it cannot sustain criticism and any modern challenge. Tomorrow only looks worse. Religions (only Islam) that resort to violence when scrutinized will die, silencing critics is something of the past. With the internet and free flow of knowledge Islam does not stand a chance. The internet keeps getting faster and spread of knowledge is rapid. In the 9 years since 911 Islam has no friends, all enemies. This is the most hated religion/cult of the planet today. The PC West refers to Islam’s problems to those "radicalized" few who don’t understand the peaceful nature of Islam (what BS). Desperate Muslim will never fail to mention the Billion Muslim which in reality is a subtle threat. We are supposed to fear that growing number; watch by summer it's 2 Billion!
Good news is that in five or ten years you will see Islam implode. They’ll abandon this religion in droves, it will happen in their own backyards.
The barbarians do succeed sometimes by sheer force and numbers but history dictates their success is always short lived.

Hitman2, Here is another Asad in the News. Hatred of jews is a very common paranoia among the muslims
:

An Ohio man who became loud and disruptive aboard a Wednesday night flight from Miami to Detroit -- at one point telling those around him he ``wanted to kill all the Jews'' -- was removed from the airplane before takeoff and arrested.

The man was identified as Mohammad Asad, 43, who authorities say posed no potential security threat.
.....

Hitman2: "They are paid workers of certain jew organistions."

Why do muslims like you always end up showing hatred for the jews?

Hitman2: "you talk about books like that of ali hrisi
which were written to get us green card."

Then why is she in Europe after getting her Green Card? Her book written for what ever reason speaks more truth about the Islamic world than the lies put out by CAIR and ISNA for the last decade.

Hitman2: "Go to google and see who is Mohammad Asad and what are his achievements"

Is that the Asad the pedophile or Asad the self hating jew whose translation of the Quran has been rejected by many of the leading Muftis and Imams of Islam, including the Al-Azhar in Egypt.

abhab1

Do you want me to compare my eagles with your vultures?

As I wrote they are only known to you through their website and as you said this their credentials.

you talk about books like that of ali hrisi
which were written to get us green card.

Go to google and see who is Mohammad Asad and what are his achievements

childs like ali sina have no significance.

Hitman 2 corrects me thus:
“The names that you have mentioned, belong to the same website that you have mentioned.”
Yes ! They are ex-Muslims. The article about Islam in Africa was translated from Al Jazeera

”They are paid workers of certain jew organistions”
Prove it.

”Ali Sina appears in Israel and his interviews are published in Jerusalem Post.”
So what? Is this a case of guilt by association?

"These worthless names do not have any achievements to their credits except that they are hate-mongers – timids."
Wrong!
Dr. Ali Sina wrote a best selling book “Understanding Mohammad” and is director of Faith Freedom International.
Ibn Warraq wrote another best seller “Why I am not a Muslim”
Noniie Darwish wrote two best sellers the latest is “Cruel and Usual Punishment”
Dr. Wafa Sultan wrote a best seller “A God Who Hates”
Ayan Hirsi Ali wrote two best sellers “Infidel and “Caged Virgin”
Irshad Mangi wrote “The Trouble With Islam”

“whose presence you find only behind the curtain of internet websites”
Wrong! They lecture throughout the civilized World.

abhab1 |

The names that you have mentioned, belong to the same website that you have mentioned.
They are paid workers of certain jew organistions.
Ali Sina appears in Israel and his interviews are published in Jeruselum Post.

These worthless names do not have any achievments to their credits except that they are hate-mongers - timids whose presence you find only behind the curtain of internet websites
Hope my answer can satisfy you.

Hitman2
Re: Prominent converts.
In order that your thesis be more credible you should have at least mentioned the names of truly prominent intellectuals and authors who left your cult. Names like Ali Sina, M.A.Khan, Ibn Warraq, Dr.Wafa Sultan, Nonie Daewish, Hirsi Ali. Or maybe quote from any one of the six million who leave your cult every year in Africa alone.
http://www.formermuslims.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=972

Quotes of prominent converts to ISLAM:

Muhammad Asad - Leopold Weiss
Statesman, Journalist, and Author

"I knew now, beyond any doubt, that it was a God-inspired book I was holding in my hand: for although it had been placed before man over thirteen centuries ago, it clearly anticipated something that could have become true only in this complicated, mechanized, phantom-ridden age of ours....

Wilfried Hofmann
German Social Scientist and Diplomat
"I began to see Islam with its own eyes, as the unadulterated, pristine belief in the one and only, the true God, Who does not beget, and was not begotten, Whom nothing and nobody resembles …

Charles Le Gai Eaton - Hassen Le Gai Eaton
Former British diplomat and Author
"I did not see how I could put one foot in front of the other unless I understood where I was going and why....All I knew was that I knew nothing - nothing, that is to say, of the slightest importance - and I was paralysed by my ignorance as though immobilised in a dense fog....."

Jemima Goldsmith - Haiqa Khan
"It would seem that a Western woman's happiness hinges largely upon her access to nightclubs, alcohol and revealing clothes; and the absence of such apparent freedom and luxuries in Islamic societies is seen as an infringement of her basic rights. However, as we all know, such superficialities have very little to do with true happiness....

Sir Archibald Hamilton
Statesman and Baronet
"There is no religion that is so maligned by the ignorant and the biased as is Islam; yet if people only knew, it is the religion of strong for the weak, the rich for the poor...

Yusuf Islam
Former Pop star Cat Stevens
"I realized that this was the true religion; religion not in the sense the West understands it, not the type for only your old age. In the West, whoever wishes to embrace a religion and make it his only way of life is deemed a fanatic. I was not a fanatic....

I've met various drug addicts that say the same thing about their choice of drug. Oh I am so fulfilled when I an high. Most suicide bombers have a strong faith in the correctness of islam as they strap on their bombs and walk amongst volleyball players to prove that their beloved version of islam is the right version of the islam that those volleyball players believe. (kind of like drug addicts killing people to support their habit)

You can fall in love with hate when the god (truth) you worship is full of hate.

The "scientific" way to know is to look at the current ratio of killers targeting innocents empowered by a belief system to the population of believers. Another "scientific" way to know is to look at the doctrine and see if the god says he hates certain groups. Another "scientific" way to know is to look at what group of ideologies support human freedom and development.

On all three the evidence is most against islam. But if you are on drugs, you don't see reality and call your own attitude "scientific," of course if truth is defined by a book, you haven't got a chance of understanding truth - you've already chosen ignorance.

hariaum

Hitman asserts:
”..that Islam is commensurate with modern science; that Islam is an egalitarian religion, blind to the racial prejudices so common to Western culture;,…”

Islam commensurate with modern science? A person had to be an imbecile to even entertain such a notion. An Allah who believes that the sun sets in a muddy well is not a God I would want to worship.
There are many internal contradictions in the Quran as well as external contradictions; not commensurate with reality as is known today. Part are scientific and some historical.
Check out some in the link below.
http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/

As to Islam being a religion blind to racial prejudice, suffice it to say that Islam has not abolished slavery till this date and there are functioning slave markets in Jeddah and Omdurman that I am aware of. Allah only knows how many more are there.

Wikipedia - facts and only facts -

Islam is the predominant religion in northern Africa, the Middle East and major parts of Asia.[8] Large communities are also found in China, Russia, parts of Europe and the Caribbean. About 13% of Muslims live in Indonesia, the largest Muslim country,[9] 31% in the Indian Subcontinent,[9] and 20% in Arab countries.[10] Converts and immigrant communities are found in almost every part of the world. With 1.57 billion Muslims[11] (see Islam by country), Islam is the second-largest religion in the world and arguably the fastest growing religion in the world.

Why Islam?

Converts invoke several reasons for embracing Islam: that, unlike Christianity, it makes sense to them; that Islam is commensurate with modern science; that Islam is an egalitarian religion, blind to the racial prejudices so common to Western culture; and that one betters himself upon embracing Islam, doing away with adverse personal and social behavior. In some narratives, a rather more emotional attitude is suggested, depicting a defining metaphysical moment of peace and understanding in which Islam was embraced; in some, this emotional attitude is preconditioned with a logical acceptance of Islam's truthfulness. Many of these may sound doubtful to those not susceptible to conversion or familiar with the nuances of Islam, but they nonetheless illustrate the view which Islamists wish to convey.

One notion suggested directly or implied by almost all narrators is the complete transformation Islam brought about in their lives. Where there was a void, Islam brought meaning; where there was disorder, Islam brought harmony; where there was despair, Islam brought hope. After embracing Islam, all hesitation and confusion faded away. Each found peace with himself, with his surroundings, and with God.

In "Why I Came to Islam?" Susie Brackenborough advances as an ultimate proof for Islam's truth that the Qur'an prefigured science in discoveries made by scientists only hundreds of years later. She suggests: "These 'miracles' have been discovered by scientists (such as the study of embryology) and explorers (such as the world is indeed round and not flat) many years after the revelation, and many more miracles are still to be found as our society develops and progresses."

First, Eboo tries to perpetuate the myth that the terrorists and suicide bombers prey on poor Muslims. How many middle or upper-class Muslims with graduate degrees have to blow themselves up before the Muslim apologists stop this tired tactic of blaming terrorism on some kind of economic status. I have read the book: Islam is the problem, not economics.

And to address the question of fear leading to prejudice. While this is possible, this logic is misleading. Fear can also lead to caution and prudence and avoiding that which is dangerous. I have a fear of falling from heights so I stay safely away from the ledge. I have a fear of driving my car too fast so I keep it under control. I have a fear of people who think they have the ultimate truth and feel that everyone should either become one of them, accept submission to their rule, or be attacked and killed. My fear prevents me from doing something foolish and dangerous. I act according to fear in order to be safe. Fear can be good. Your analysis of fear leading to prejudice should be restated as an irrational fear of people that has no reasonable basis in fact or experience. Fearing people who ascribe to the ideology presented in the Quran and Hadith is not irrational. Not all prejudice is bad. I am prejudiced against neo-Nazis and Islamists because they espouse a view of life and how to treat others that I find abhorrent and which they center their lives around. While fear should not completely control us and prevent us from living a full life, it is necessary for survival. Don't underestimate the positive value of rational fear.

There is good news for you all: Muslims love to kill Muslims. The bad news is: The job is daunting!

So the muslims on this link say they want to be treated like everyone else. But they won't denounce the hatred in the koran. What does that represent but duplicitous nonsense. They say we should not attack muslims, but that we should expect muslims to attack us if we do something wrong. Well then, all the arabic non-muslims should do what the muslims do: riot, burn effigies of mohamed, draw pictures depicting mohamed having sex with his multiple wives, break the kabaa idol, replace the mosques with churches and temples... Or perhaps suicide bombers in the kabaa.

the morality of particles: Like Newton said “to every action there is always an equal and opposite reaction”, so be good to others and than expect the same from others by a saddique. So should Hindus drive armies into pakistan, afghanistan, iran, and armenians send genocidal hordes into turkey, jews buy and launch rockets into the west bank, or sudanese rape and kill north sudanese...

Why can't a muslim say, when hate is taught, whether it is the koran, the bible, or any other so called scripture, that scripture should be edited? Because they are so brain washed that they don't see general principles, they see tribal power and worship it. Atheists, secularists, the vast majority of Hindus, even a greater majority of buddhits, and so the Hope,the Navajo, the Pagans, etc can see that wherever hate is taught it is wrong. This is not beyond the human mind. It is beyond the mono-ideologist.

They have to believe their book is perfect or they realize that the emperor has no clothes.

Is there a muslim who is willing to stand up and say, when the koran hates, it is wrong? that is the muslim who can bring peace to the islamic world. (currently it is mostly muslims killing muslims, thus to get peace I suppose the particle morality is that they continue their suicide - just to be clear I believe in the principle of freedom of conscience; when a hindu kills to defend god, s/he is full of nonsense and if he finds a book that says he should, I would be willing to denounce that book; do you have that courage?)

hariaum

I am wondering what brand of crack you guys are doing. The FACTS are quite clear: all the terrorists were Muslims. There hasn't been any non-Muslim terrorist. As simple as that.
If you need the explanation, read the Koran (I did).
It couldn't be more obvious.

To DebChatterjee:

My friend you said nothing on Samjhota express incident? Like a true Indian you wont say anything on incidents like samjhota express,Gujrat, in which Hindu extremists killed thousands of Innocent Muslims. Like Newton said “to every action there is always an equal and opposite reaction”, so be good to others and than expect the same from others.

Debchatterjee the Brahmin priest of Calcutta:

Stop muslims from migration to US and stop transfer of technology to them.
Your ideas are always lunatic in nature.

What are you going to do with them in your Bengal?
Are you going to throw them in the bay of bengal or they are going to throw you in the bay.

Fighters? you are not, conspirators? yes.
Take care of millions of muslims living in india rather than to poke your nose elsewhere.

Am surprised u have not posted my second comment-a coherent factual presentation even with academic sources.Why???

U even posted some offensive and dregatory comments on this forum-such as describing the Prophet as a "terrorist" and Arafat as a "pedophile"!!!. Unless of course u want to enforce a 3d world censorship on freedom of speech on this forum.

Each one of us needs to see what wrong we are doing which has a negative implication on others. Christians can blame Muslims for all the terrorist activities but they won’t accept the fact that Muslims are the victim of the barbaric acts around the Globe, like Palestine, Bosnia, Kashmir, Iraq, and Afghanistan. West believe that they are the true champions of Human Rights buts it’s shameful that they are silent on the injustice being done with Aafia Siddiqui. If they have any evidence against her let it known to public or media. Incident like these are winning the enemy for west rather friends. Ask Dick Cheney for his fabricated evidence on Iraq’s Weapons of Mass destruction and destroying a country and killed thousands of Muslims.

ripvanwinkleincollege:

Which he probably didn't do because his wife might have lost her election to be a Senator in heavily-Jewish New York.
-----------------------------------------
Evidently, you slept through college, Rip. Chairman Pedophile Arafat, whose repulsive pedophilia was well known to reporters and the entire Middle East, agreed to the ridiculous Peace Plan.

Heavily Christian US, along with predominantly Christian New York, believed him. However, when his thugs fired at Ariel Sharon on the Temple Mount/Dome of the Rock, beginning an Intifada, what many had been trying to tell the Israeli people finally sank in.

The Saudis, whom I do not often quote, remarked, "The Palestinians never lose an opportunity to lose an opportunity."

Heavily Christian America, like your heavily Christian self, did not bat an eyelash as Israel negotiated with Chairman Pedophile Arafat while sustaining weekly and sometimes twice-weekly terror attacks. Again and again, Ehud Barak proclaimed that the "Peace Process" would not be derailed by terrorists. However, Chairman Pedophile had always been a terrorist, just as he'd always been a Pedophile, with a strong preference for blond boys, one or two always at his side. (Israelis, among others, don't much like this sort of thing.)

Indeed, Chairman Pedophile, while addressing the United Nations some decades prior simultaneously blew up a school bus loaded with little girls and boys in Israel.

After the last ridiculous fiasco, pretending that this Nobel Prize winning pedophile terrorist was a statesman, this position forced on Israel by the heavily Christian United States, left-leaning Israel, finally, after four wars, endless terrorist attacks, swung to the right.

For two thousand years, heavily Christian American, Jews have prayed facing the Temple Mount, three times daily, facing the Temple Mount. In 1967, Moshe Dyan stood at that site, and Jews all over the world, they who for two thousand years had said, "Next year, in Jerusalem," rejoiced.

But Golda Meir said, "No. The time was not right." Well, we wonder when the right time will come, heavily Christian.

We also wonder why it is that Jews have died protecting your Church where Christ was supposedly born.

We're just asking, Heavily Christian.

Gee, Xavisev, the Orthodox ChristoBigot is here. Quelle surprise! Just as his Orthodox Christian priest compadre finished storming a Menorah (LOL!) in Moldava.

On the other hand, Xavisev could be of use to us with respect to terrorism. Those ORthodox ChristoNazis have always bullied the unprotected.

Never into getting their own arses nicked though. That does distinguish the OrthoNazi from al-Quaeda.

In the Ukraine, the ORthoNazi Christians are considering a celebration of their (nonexistent) "Underground" (LOL!)

Some feel the celebration would be ah, dishonest. Why not let them celebrate!

ORthoNazi Christians like to laugh and jiggle their big fat bellies, swill vodka.

They could have their OrthoNazi to-do at Babi Yar, perhaps.

Islam is not the first social movement to have a segment metastasize into an entitlement saga. Christian factions engaged in centuries of bloody internal warfare across Europe. Religion has no monopoly on the entitlement action. Pseudo-Scientific movements like communism and fascism have proved to be at least as destructive to human life. The problem with Islam is that it is happening now and it is happening to us.

The Declaration of Independence and the U.S. Constitution engendered an enduring respect for the rights of the individual, adjunct to a movement that was already beginning to flower in western Europe. This has served as a suppression agent on most religious passion. The material wealth of these nations is the empirical proof of the movements efficacy.

The Islamic radicals reject this ethos, but the huge gap in material wealth of western nations compared to Islamic dominated ones creates a problem for their ideology. The rise of modern terrorism is in some way based on the need to explain why those who God should favor be so poor. Real grievances with western nations are blown completely out of proportion and are used as an excuse for failed economic development.

To Capn Ahab
Turkey began a crackdown on Islamic fundamentalism in the 1920s, long before there was an Israel, or dissatisfaction over the rule of the Saudi royal family and Gulf sheikdoms. That's because Kemal Ataturk recognized that there was something basically wrong with the Salafist formula of Islam. As a result, Turkey is now a secular democracy, after many decades of cultural evolution. But when the Baathist party tried much the same formula in Egypt, Syria and Iraq begining in the 1950s, they were demonized because of their stance against Israel, so the type of societal evolution away from Islamic fundamentalism that the Baathists espoused never took hold. That's one of the many frustrations of people in the Middle East who feel that the natural evolution of their societies has been unfavorably altered by the encounter of Islamic peoples with Western Europe, Israel and the United States in the 20th century. This is what fuels the return to fundamentalism in many areas of the Muslim world. A Middle East peace agreement between Israel and its Arab neighbors would go a long way toward turning down the temperature inside the pressure cooker. Most Arabs are willing to adopt a land-for-peace formula based on a return to 1967 borders, or something close to it. What most media outlets do not disclose is that in the Camp David discussions of 2000, the US insisited that the Palestinians accept the idea that Jews living inside what would become Arab East Jerusalem would continue to be under Israeli law. That was a ridiculous position, and it's no wonder that Arafat could not accept it. The fact that the US could propose such a thing with a straight face shows the depth of pro-Israel bias in the Clinton Administration. And yet Arafat was demonized for not doing so. All because Clinton lacked the statesmanship to go on American TV and demand that Israel back down on this one condition. Which he probably didn't do because his wife might have lost her election to be a Senator in heavily-Jewish New York. This is why many people who actually know the facts of this situation are upset with Israel. We give Israel billions of dollars of aid every year, and when we ask them to make peace, they spit in our faces. And yes, all of this does in fact make Islamic terrorism much, much worse than it might otherwise be. And our traitorous Congressmen back them up, rather than cutting off funding in order to apply pressure like James Baker and the first President Bush did. What a bunch of idiots.

If we weren't supporting the Israelis unconditionally in diplomatic fora and subsidizing a significant share of
their military needs- we probably wouldn't be targeted as
we have been..."the friend of my enemy is my enemy".

Terrorism, in different forms , will always be present with us unless the seeds of terrorism like false religions (Catholicism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, liberal Protestantism), gay marriage, fornication, DARWINIAN EVOLUTION, and atheism continue in their stupidity.

It's not gonna get better. The worst is still yet coming when the stupidity that I mentioned above will rear their very ugly heads.

The good news is when these things self destruct, the days ahead will be a thousand years of peace.

Sadly for many people, which includes the liberal gay-marrying evolutionist (leftist democrat) parts of America, and America's (future) enemies around the world, that thousand year peace will only happen in their absence.

Stupidity is self-destructive and doomsday is a result of a world GONE MAD.

A single plant leaf is a solar cell, a battery, a food maker, an air cleaner, a medicine,etc ALL merged into one single leaf and yet THE IDIOTIC EVOLUTIONISTS CAN PROUDLY CLAIM THAT THERE IS NO INTELLIGENT DESIGN TO THAT.

And yet this kind of stupidity is taught around the world. Expect the worst as the fruit of that madness will consume them like a verocious wild animal or BEAST.

God is not at fault here. Man's destruction is SELF-INFLICTED.

BANNING EVOLUTION AT ONCE, can actually prevent doomsday but you can't let a crazy man cure himself. In other words, it's not going to happen until they self-destruct with their stupid doctrine.

The greatest promulgators of fear in the US are the media and the government.

The racist chrosto-fascists posting here are proof that the fear mongering works.

If the problem is religious extremism then there are many extremist christians and jews to deport as well as muslims.

Or we could behave like adults. What if US policy were to be reviewed and all policies of exploitation, assassination, and aiding in corporate raiding of resources, were to be abolished?

Deport all Muslims and we will be safe.

Jameschristian,

Your post lives up to your name. You shame Christ. Continue to be a liar and call yourself a Christian, but all you are is a christian of the degraded and defiled form that have devolved from the Original.

"I'll especially not hold my breath while an Islamist resides in the White House and all but cheers for Islamic extremist acts."

You reek of hatred all the way over here. No surprise, you think you are standing for Christ when all you stand for is justification of a hate filled ego.

Hey, all the more reason that you could do well writing for Fox, or having chit chat with Rush. You would have commonality in alignment with the Dark Lord.

Jesus is about Love and Compassion and Forgiveness. How you mistake that for Hatred, Destruction and Abandonment I have no idea. Must be the lies running around in your head. Like little Angels, those voices....

dick cheney and his followers are trying to scare you.but it only works on the weak and illiterate.for most of america they are aware of situation and proceed with caution but afraid or scared of those people i think not.

There is no direct relation between Islam and terror. Let us focus mainly on the question: what is the meaning of terror? one should examine what Islam says about terror; the relationship between the notion of jihad and Islam; the status of suicide attacks in Islam; and the false justification of war in the modern world, which can only pave the way for terrorist actions. I suggest that we read perspectives of the distinguished and eminent Turkish scholar and thinker Fethullah Gülen. You will find it very interesting: http://fethullahgulenconference.org/dallas/read.php?p=islam-and-terror-from-perspective-of-fethullah-gulen

Islamists are morons, but under the surrender of Obama, WE are bigger morons. Instead of destroying Islam and the countries from which their violence against us originates, as our parents did with Japan and Germany, we pretend to believe this nonsense about Islam being a religion of peace, and let the corrupt, criminal dictatorships off the hook.

Level Afghanistan, Yemen, Iran. Forget humanity, treat them with the same violence our parents doled out to Japan and Germany and Italy during WW2 and this "war" would be over. Make those countries REALLY suffer, reduce their populations, make them fear us, and no other Mid Eastern country would allow these Islamic mutts to set up shop ever again.

I love the complaint that this "war" on terror is taking longer than WW2. If WE, this generation, had fought this war like our parents fought WW2, it would have been over in 6 months and the rest of the Islamic countries would be bowing and scraping in order not to be next. But the U.S. is soft, Islam knows it, and this will not change. Islam is a stain. The rest of the world won't miss it. Make the rest of the world fear to BE Islamic and Islam would shed it's weird and violent strictures against women and non-Islamics and the problem would be instantly solved.

I'll especially not hold my breath while an Islamist resides in the White House and all but cheers for Islamic extremist acts.

Sorry Patel, but when you have 30% of Muslims in the UK saying Sharia law should be imposed there, or 90+% who believe that Israel and the Jews should be destroyed, I think a little bit of concern is in order.

Muslims need to get their house in order first. Stop blaming the West or telling us how to act.

You can not defeat terrorism. Terrorists are not an organized entity that can be wiped out or depleted to a small number. The end of terrorism is the end of mono-ideological thinking that says I can target civiliams, so as to increase suffering, so that I can have the world the way I want it. The difference between a just war construct and terrorism is the end goal - increase human freedom, increase group power. The tactical difference between drones, planes, etc is that the tactic is designed to kill an enemy while the terrorist is designed to kill an innocent to send a message to the enemy.

If the koran is to be interpreted as saying that you should not kill civilians, and terrorists are choosing to kill civilians (volleyball players and college kids) (note this is not collateral damage but the target itself) then the muslims should conclude this is the act of non-muslims (infidels) and fatwas should be declared that the unbeliever al qaeda terrorists are attacking islam and thus muslims have the right to kill these people.

But the funding for the terrorists comes from the muslim community. Thus, at least to that substantial amount, there is support within the islamic community to kill innocent volley ball players. Then how can they declare a fatwa against those who support the terrorists as they are the supporters.

To defeat terrorists, kill them. To defeat their supporters, kill them or freeze their bank accounts. To defeat terrorism destroy mono-ideological constructs that say the one and true god hates ______ (insert your favorite infidel group) people. Whether it is the koran, bible, or any other book that says god hates the non-believer, let that be disavowed by the good people of the world and such teaching be called universally evil.

Is Eboo ready to say that when the koran says god hates infidels it is wrong. Is Eboo ready for ending terrorism?

hariaum

To Eboo Patel: "They have not roused millions of the faithful to their cause." Wrong. They have been able to recruit enough fighters and supporters to keep fighting the militarily superior Soviets and now the far more militarily superior USA in Iraq Afghan, Paks and Yemen for years to come. They don't need an army such as Saddam's that are easily defeated by USA. "They have not communicated a vision that large groups of people embrace. They have not built a society that people want to live in". Wrong. Their vision is not totally rejected or detested in the Arab world. While the so-called democracy, freedom and human right visions have not attracted enough Muslims to defeat the al Qaeda either or be effective in the Arab world.

Ashraf_Siddiqui_K2 wrote:

“Don’t interfere in other countries affairs, like you did in Iraq......other countries like you are doing with Aafia Siddiqui.”

I think this is a good suggestion. However, in that case USA (and the decadent West) should close its doors to Muslim immigration and collectively stop transfer of all technologies including humanitarian ones to Muslim countries. Let Muslims look after themselves without any external/foreign interference/influence, except that from Allah.

rcubedkc:
"I propose that all Muslims and Middle Easterners be banned from the United States, permanently."

Including all the ones that were born and raised here and have never done anything more violent than complain about a dirty fork at a restaurant?

There are plenty of problems to address inside Islam. Is there prejudice on the part of the West? Yes, but no more than there is in the East against the West. It's easier to blame the "other" than it is to look at the "self." If you blame the "other" then you don't have to take responsibilty for your own life and actions. Muslims are just as guilty of this as Christians, Jews and every other extremist group in the world. Irrational thought and action is a by - product of extremist thought, no matter what religion the extremist belongs to. Do extremists expect that we will just wring our hands and not act? If they do, then they are more delusional than I thought they were.

Mr. Patel,

Rubbish is the article. This is not a war that can be won and it is now being recognized by the top USA military, CIA officials and yet you are preaching them how it is possible by giving them advices mentioned in the last paragraph.

If I would have to suggest the wining strategy than it would be as follows:

“Don’t interfere in other countries affairs, like you did in Iraq. Stop killing innocent people like you are doing in Iraq, Afghanistan. Shun the practice of supporting Israel for their misdeeds by vetoing the unanimous resolution of UN. Stop insulting, terrorizing innocent people of other countries like you are doing with Aafia Siddiqui.”

If all the above advices are adhered by all than peace and harmony will prevailed as battle are won by winning the hearts and not by gun.

Since your name suggest that your origin is from India it was expected from you that you will be tight lipped on the terrorist activity of Samjhota express happened in India but to remember and to mention Mumbai attack only. There is always a repercussion my brother, see the cause of terrorist activity of Mumbai in totality to nab the root cause.

The problem is not Islam per se. The big problem is the irrational belief in the so called life after dead, judgment day and in a just supreme being. Also the problem is the way parents raise they children as many fail to teach them the value of always
using the common sense. There would less anti-american feeling if parents would explain the value of our democracy, not a perfect system but the best so far. Parent should explain le many valid reasons why USA support the existence of the State of Israel: because genocide is not and will not tolerated.

What we need is a tournament, like in the days of the Romans, wherein all the suicide bombers in the land, can come together in a forum and compete. Who can make the biggest boom. They all blow themselves up.

And then there will be peace in the land.

The aim of terrorists is, plain and simple, to spread terror by whatever means. Disrupt daily life; sow seeds of discord between people who should have common goals. Disrupt financial markets. Keep you constantly looking over your shoulder and waiting for the other showe to drop. Seems like they're doing a good job.

The founder of Islam was a terrorist. So terrorism is an integral feature of Islam. A classic example is the murder of a poetess, Asma bint Marwan, on the orders of Muhammad. Marwan had exposed Muhammad as a fraud and wrote poems criticizing the thug. Moe was disturbed by her writings and ordered her murdered.

"When the apostle heard what she had said he said, "Who will rid me of Marwan's daughter?" `Umayr b. `Adiy al-Khatmi who was with him heard him, and that very night he went to her house and killed her. In the morning he came to the apostle and told him what he had done and he [Muhammad] said, "You have helped God and His apostle, O `Umayr!" When he asked if he would have to bear any evil consequences the apostle said, "Two goats won't butt their heads about her", so `Umayr went back to his people."

Asma was killed while she was asleep with her infants. Muhammad's actions are divine actions, according Muslims, and they feel they are dutibound to follow his murderous actions.

When the Abrahamic religions start preaching respect for peaceful co-existence with those different in race, physical characteristics, religion, politics, language and sexual orientation instead of their non-compromising "my-way-or-the-highway" arrogance (and only then, can there be any hope for peace.

Other than the residents of the Arabian Peninsula, most of those who identify themselves as Arabs are in reality Arabised people. They are descendents of the Canaanites, Ammonites, Arameans, Babylonians, Copts etc. who were overran by the Arabs. Those people had adopted the Arab language and basic culture and most, not all, the invaders’ religion. There are still large Christian minorities in Lebanon, Syria and Egypt. Many of those minorities have emigrated to North and South America and Australia, starting in the late 19th Century. They comprise the vast majority of the immigrant Arabised people. That means that not every person with an Arab sounding name is a Muslim. This segment of western population distinguishes itself in many ways; the most is their extreme allegiance to their adopted countries. The West needs to be aware of this very vital fact.

In india too?

Besides the Hindu terrorists from the well-established training camps in India under the saffronazis, other Hindu mercenaries too are active all over from Ayodhya to Kashmir. The infamous comment made by Lal Kishenchand Advani, the ex-Home Minister of the expired BJP-led NDA government, that Bajrangis being terrorists is a joke, only spurred the brutes of Bajrang Dal in their crime spree. Dara Singh, a Bajrangi, had successfully terrorized Orissa by burning alive Pastor Graham Staines and his two sons.

Advani’s clean chit to the Dal in the wake of this heinous crime made him look more an ogre than a sentient human. George Fernandes, the then Defense Minister, had called it a foreign conspiracy, not a Hindutva crime. That Hindu terrorists have been the backbone of RSS-VHP-BJP-Bajrang Dal, the communal fascist combine, has been evidenced time and time again. Its so-called “trishul-dikshas” (knife distribution) are naked and subversive paramilitary training camps for its militias. Not only are the enlistees given their arms and training but also incantatory lessons in hate and violence against minorities, who, they are told, have to be bloodily extirpated, in order for the land exclusively to belong to Hindus.

This climate of sacred savagery spawned by the saffronazis has successfully spread the miasma of bigoted violence all over. The abundance of firearms freely made available to the HinduTaliban gangsters empowers the anti-socials and prods them to “action”. This is an investment towards routine training in ethnic cleansing and eventually establishing Hindu Rashtra, envisaged by Savarkar and Golwalkar, the prime mentors of assassins, arsonists, thugs and rapists “serving the cause of Hindutva”.

A glimpse of the climate of Hindu crimes rampant is in order. An article, titled Gujarat 2002 Visits Gohana [Haryana] by Shamsul Islam (Milli Gazette,
16-30 Sep. 05, p.8, New Delhi) lays out “Similarities with Gujarat 2002 Carnage”:

• “Dalit houses and properties were burnt by releasing gas from cylinders. Big and well constructed houses were both looted and burnt whereas smaller houses were only looted. The arsonists carried away moveable properties in carts they had brought with them to transport their booty.

• Police and law and order machinery stood as mock spectators. • Only Dalit properties were targeted. If there happened to be a non-Dalit property, it was spared, which means the attackers had full knowledge of the identities of the home-owners. For instance, in Arya Nagar which has mixed population, only Dalit houses were blasted. Likewise, at Samta Chowk market (adjacent to Balmiki Basti), out of around 20 shops only a junk-dealer’s shop owned by a Dalit was looted and completely burnt.

Eboo, you don't get it. As always, you're trying to defend your co-religionists and asking others to adjust. If you are so concerned about terrorism by Islamic extremists, you should try to convince the imams, mullahs, Saudis, Iranians and other intolerant Islamic countries that they must change their 7th Century mentality. Write to the leaders or to the newspapers or to the imams or mullahs in Islamic countries and tell them that the whole civilized world is against their violent cult. Islam is the most despised, backward, illiterate, primitive and violent religion/cult in the world. Start a reformation or something like that to change it so that people can live in peace. You will be doing a great service for your religion.

We are witnesung the death of western democracy. In a democracy every citizen is equal.Alqaeda terrorist know this and they are attacking this pillar of democracy. Alqaeda wants western democracies to become apartheid regimes -like apartheid israel- where racism and profiling of certain people is ok.

The problem is not Islam per se, the problem is the irrational belief in life after dead, judgment day, a just supreme being and all that fiction. We have to raise our children instilling the value of "in reason we trust", of the Ethic of Reciprocity both in the positive and in the negative form, the value of democracy just to name a few. I wonder if the father of the Christmas would be bomber ever explained to him the many valid reasons why we americans (and european also), are supporting the existence of the State of Israel. Has nothing to do with high finances and nothing to do with the Old Testament. It's to teach the entire world that genocide will never be tolerated.

"If Osama bin Laden could raise an army, he would. It is precisely because he can't that he has to rely on a shadowy network using the tools of terrorism, which is to say the tactic of fear"

He has raised enough of an army of fanatics to seriously threaten a free and open society, something that in itself he sees as sinful. Furthermore, those armies in the field are supported by some, tolerated by many and actively opposed by few in the Ummah.

While I do not particularly fear the Islamic extremists, since their attacks have been pretty lame and their ability to project power almost completely absent, I do note them enough to recognize that Islam itself, by generating and tolerating this extreme, is the problem.

To Aszik...Actually there were Jews living in Israel before there were Arabs and they have been living there even after the Roman expulsion. Saying that they are foreign to the region is BS.

Unlike the European colonists that actually were foreign to the Americas and to Australia, the Jews were the indigenous population in what is now Israel.

The Palestinians could have had a state as far back as 1948 but they rejected it. There was terrorism before 1967, so that the excuse that the "occupation" really is the root of the problem is also BS.

Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza and was rewarded by the Palestinians starting to rocket their cities. Hmmmmmmmmmm yeah in your world view its always the Jews that are the problem. Get a life.

extremists? this is war and they are the ENEMY.any religion that resorts to this maniacal violence does not deserve civilized consideration. either recognize this and act or get out of there,and let them continue killing one another,not our people.

There is absolutely no justification whatsoever for killing innocent people-such as trying to blow up the airliner from Amsterdam to Detroit-which was a serious security failure.

Dots should always be connected before rpt before, and, for God's sake, not after a disaster strikes.

Thou I agree with Ebo,am surprised he is mute on and about the festering root causes of the hostility towards the west in general and the US esepcially,which feed terrorism:accumulated Muslim/Arab grievances: European colonialism with Britain and France leading the way-they colonized the Arab East (interestingly against the opposition of President Woodrow Wilson and his 14 point principle esepcially Self-Detreminination)and fragmented it-observe Greater Syria where France gave away the province of Alexendaretta to Turkey in 1939 which is still populated by Syrian Araba majority as we speak;then Briatin and France on the basis of the Sykes-Picott agreement of 1916 broke up the unity of G. Syria into a confessional Lebanon, a shrunk new syria, trans-Jordan and where Britain colluded with jews to slice off Palestine from G Syria and present it on a silver plate to them and create an alien jewish entity (Balfour Declaration of 1917) by explleing 70% of the indigenous Palestinians in 1947/8(now six million refugees)and occupying five million more in historic PAlestine for the past 61 years.The Khost bomber is the son of a Palestinian refugee.

Palestine is the mother of all problems:US blind support for "isrl" is at the heart of the present hostility and the major feeder of terrroism. Only the blind and the dumb will pretend that the Palestine question does not exist.

The Bush/Cheney/isrl war of choice on Iraq is another festering grievance-as well as the war on Afghanistan which so far failed to catch ben laden and co.Instead of finding ben laden and serving him with justice he deserves,Bush went to war whose victims are essentially the Afghan people and not Al Qaedah.

Another on going grievance is the US support and nurturing for Muslim/Arab despots and dictators:for example it's well known that radiacal Egyptian islamist movements were born in Egypt's horrendous jails and as a result of the torture of political opposition who were jailed because of political opinion.

The US along with major European powers-Britain, France and Germany-should look the facts in the face and confornt and resolve these grievances which are the perfect fodder for terrorism.

Prior to the anamoalous craetion of the racist apartheid militaristic jewish ethno-religious colonial entity,there were no PLO,no HAMAS,no Hezballa and-not even Al Qaeada.

The US should deal with the root causes and then engage in public diplomacy:it is hard to sell spoiled eggs no matter how hard you try.

Eboo Patel wrote:

"Fear leads to prejudice. Prejudice leads to alienation."

That's true. And though you may not find this palatable, this unpalatable practice needs to be practiced in these troubled times. It's like quarantine. If you have H1N1 flu virus ypu keep away from folks who are otherwise healthy. That's demonstration of good collegial citizenship values.

The same here. Muslims always cry hoarse if they are discriminated at airports and immigration centers for terrorist acts from their own co-religionists. The Muslims like Eboo Patel wants others to reach out to Muslims while admitting that it is difficult to understand which Muslim is innocent and who is not. But Eboo cheekily responds elsewhere:

"(If Osama bin Laden could raise an army, he would. It is precisely because he can't that he has to rely on a shadowy network using the tools of terrorism, which is to say the tactic of fear.)"

Well, Osama bin Laden has shown already that aszymmetric warfare wins him and the radical Islamic ideologies everything. He need NOT raise an army to win this Jihad against the West. He already is very effective and has achieved his cult-like status. Killing (decapitation/suicide bombings) of western civilians is the most effective way of getting political mileage which is what bin Laden getting. He is freely able to recruit suicide bombers and terrorists to cause mayhem. So, what is the need for an army, Eboo ?

Now at this point Eboo Patel and his hypocritical fans would say that "Quran does not permit killing of innocents, so dumping Osama and all other Muslims in the same group is unfair because Islam means peace."

Such babble doesn't do any good. Those innocent civilians who have been killed by Muslim terrorists will not not come back not matter how much Eboo Patel blabbers ou his good faith senses.
Actually people like Eboo are causing more harm to the war on Islamic terrorism (aka "Man Made Disaster") than helping others. In fact, Eboo and his Muslim folks need to be ostracized from flying. Likes of Eboo may start a verbal duel and cry prejudice if in the plane someone stops a Muslim radical from igniting his underwear strapped with explosives. I would bet that Eboo would say that singling out a a Muslim would be a violation of his/her human rights.

A lot of Yemenis fought the Soviets in Afghanistan. As usual the arrogant Americans did not thank them after the Soviets left. So the attack on SS Cole was pay back. I do not recall Yemenis attacking any other military naval vessel during that period. Ask your self why the SS Cole was attacked?

Posted by: vaders1 | January 7, 2010 8:27 AM

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Yes, we helped the terrorists throw the infidels out of Afghanistan. We [Reagan Administration] even printed up Arabic books that taught the glory of throwing the infidels out through a holy war.

The US has it's own little history of Afghanistan that isn't completely accurate [Oh shock and horrors.]

The Soviets never invaded Afghanistan. They were invited in by the communist government of Afghanistan to fight the terrorists who were trying to overthrow the government. We helped them, not because we were interested in the Afghans but because it was an opportunity to use the Afghans in a proxy war against the Soviets.

After the terrorists won, there was a power vacuum and the Taliban rose to power. We didn't care. It didn't make any difference to us how many heads and hands were chopped off. The Saudis do that today and Condi complained about women not being able to drive.

As an aside. It was the Carter Administration that started supporting the terrorists in Afghanistan and the Reagan Administration just followed through. IMO, if you think supporting the terrorists in Afghanistan was a good thing, you can thank them both. If you think supporting the terrorists in Afghanistan was a mistake you can blame both of them.

Re: Think about this. The most high-profile terrorist attacks of the past few years have occurred on Thanksgiving (the Mumbai murders)

======================

I had no idea they celebrated Thanksgiving in Mumbai. They do have Indians. That must be why. Thanks.

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Re: "Defeating terrorism will require many things."

======================

Defeating terrorism? I'm not exactly sure what constitutes "defeat". You may or may not recall that the Jews had a successful terrorist campaign against the Egyptian. It is called the Plagues of Egypt and is celebrated to this day on a Jewish holiday called Passover. That was something like 5,000 years ago.

Governments practice terrorism. It can be argued that "sanctions" are a form of terrorism. Flying armed drones over a people is a form of terrorism.

Was last century's Irish terrorism [Northern Ireland] defeated or was it dissipated?

Kashmir? I suppose you could ask different people who the terrorists are and get different answer? The same might be true WRT the Occupied Territories or Cechnya.

The US appears to think it has a God given right [Christian no less] to invade and occupy foreign countries particularly in the mid-east of late. Not to mention bombing Yemen and Pakistan. And for some inexplicable reason we're shocked that someone wants to attack the US on US soil?

The US has military forces in ~135 countries. There are a variety of reasons for each one but I might contend that maybe we could cut that back some? We already spend more on the US military than the rest of the world combined.

Mr. Patel in his superficial way admits that the CIA created Alqaida strategy is effective, well-planned and embroils a large part of the earth and even victimizes a large part of the Muslim world. What does that say about our strategies that have no end and an exit plan and at the expense of hundreds of billions is ineffective. Suicide bombers have unleashed a strategy that is over our heads. Instead of shooting from the hip for the obvious can some Patel tell us what to do and how?

Its amazing how ignorant the Americans are. They will never take resposibility for their actions.

If you say that

"But they should be under no illusions that they can force us to disengage from the Middle East and leave them free to grab control there. That is never going to happen".

Its not a question of disengaging from the Middle East. You have not properly engaged in the Middle East. Because you want control of what? Its oil. The tacit mindless support of Israel does not play well with Arab world hence the Anti-Americanism which is widespread.

I was talking to friends, both Presbyterian ministers now retired, yesterday. Both realize that in a lot of way the terrorists have achieved an important objective, which is to force us to behave in ways we do not like. We ought not to go beyond reason and treat muslims and Arabs as pariahs. Not all of them deserve it; and we cannot reliably tell who they are. The terrorists are actually few in number, and the best means to defeat them are unconventional. But they should be under no illusions that they can force us to disengage from the Middle East and leave them free to grab control there. That is never going to happen.

A lot of Yemenis fought the Soviets in Afghanistan. As usual the arrogant Americans did not thank them after the Soviets left. So the attack on SS Cole was pay back. I do not recall Yemenis attacking any other military naval vessel during that period. Ask your self why the SS Cole was attacked?

The Americans are resposible for creating the Taliban who were the freedom fighters who fought the Soviets in Afghanistan. The rude and arrogant Americans did not thank the Mujahideen and abondoned Afghanistan. Mission accomplished.

The Taliban took over Afghanistan and Arabs who came from elsewhere formed Al-Qaeda to go after the Americans who have tendency to cut and run. So the Americans must take responsibility for creating Taliban and Al-Qaeda. So long suckers. You create em you own em

when so called respectable muslims turn on a dime into terrorists makes all muslims capable of turning...
until they stop we have to be aware of the danger...

It is almost impossible to defeat Al Qaeda for two reasons:

1) AQ will not hesitate to kill civilians in the West and in other non-Muslim countries. It then expects the general public to put pressure on its government to withdraw from the fight. On the other hand western armies do their best to protect non-combatant Muslims in Muslim countries. If the West deliberately killed a few more Muslim civilians then these Muslims will pressure their governments to eradicate AQ. Also AQ has widespread sympathies among the general Muslim population.

2. The West refuses to implement the most effective measure to minimize terrorism at home. That is to stop all immigration and visitors from approximately 10 Muslim countries that have know terrorist organization and these organization get support form the national governments as in Pakistan where the army and ISI are hand in glove with AQ and the Taliban. If the West stopped all immigrants from the countries listed below the chances of terrorist attacks will decrease by nearly 100%. Migration and citizenship in the West is aprized commodity in Muslim countries and once the ordinary Muslim is kept away from this golden goose he or she will put the maximum pressure on their govt to eradicate Islamic terrorism

The countries whose citizens should be banned from teh West are:
Indonesia, Malaysia, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Bangladesh, Muslim citizens of India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Morocco, Somalia, Libya and Algeria and Sudan.

If I understand you correctly what you are saying is that we should stop fearing terrorist attacks.--This is what it seems you say when you say we should not let ourselves be manipulated. You definitely seem more concerned with Muslims being seen negatively than anything else. But how should we view Muslims? We are constantly told by people like you that terrorists are few, that most Muslims have nothing to do with terrorism. Then why is it the West at all has to fight terrorism? Should not the vast majority of "good" Muslims be taking care of this problem? Yes, but they do not. Why? The answer is simple: In the Muslim world the concept does not exist of aiding and abetting a crime. Muslims feel there is no contradiction between saying they are not terrorists and do not support them while a terrorist cell exists down the street and everyone knows of it. Muslims have no concept as in the U.S. that knowing anything about a crime, remaining silent in the face of knowledge of a criminal, is a crime itself. The truth is the way Westerners are being manipulated is to believe that Muslims see the world in the same way as Westerners. They do not. If they are not planting bombs they are silent in the face of those that do. Again, if most Muslims really were innocent then terrorists would not even have a chance of existing in Muslim society. But they do exist. Will continue to exist. Because the "good" Muslims do nothing.

The answer is yes. Al-Qaeda is playing on the fear of the unknown

The American public & CIA are very paranoid, gullible and ignorant a far as al-Qaeda/Taliban is concerned

Neither the Americans public nor the CIA understand what is al-Qaeda/Taliban or how even al-Qaeda/Taliban came into existence and therefore are running around like headless chickens.

The Detroit Bomber has freaked out the average American who is so ignorant that they can even NOT point on a map where Nigeria is. As for Yemen they will be at a total loss.

Net result of this paranoia, gullibility and ignorance is the usual over-reaction. The CIA wants to avenge the Khost bombing. Expect counter revenge

The net cost for the Detroit Bomber to the US tax payer will be about $30Billion in enhanced security etc and CIA will spend another $2 or 3 Billions to work the the difference between conter-insurgency and counter-terrorism and learn how not to fall hook, line & sinker handling quadruple agents.

Sohtauglu says "People in these countries dont understand why and under what right USA is invading their countries and still fighting the people of these lands."

That's really funny considering that Islam was spread by the sword from Arabia. Why and under what right did Muslims invade Persia and destroy the Zoroastrian religion there that had flourished for more than 1000 years? Why and under what right did Muslims invade India and kill tens of millions of Hindus and Buddhists over the centuries, forcibly converting millions more to Islam? Muslims have no problems bringing up the crusades and al-andalus with the Christians and demanding apologies - how come no Muslim ever apologizes for the atrocities committed by Muslims in places like Persia and India?

Dear Dr.Eboo Patel,
Member of President Barack Obama Administration's Faith Advisory Council.

Yes,you are right,*stop letting ourselves be manipulated*

*There are certainly more than enough Poor Young Muslims brainwashed to become Suicider Bomber* But,there are also Poor Young Hindus,Poor Young Non-muslim Africans(poorer than muslims) and Poor Young People in US,Europe and everywhere.
The Core Issue is;
Why poor young Hindu doesnt become suicide bomber ? Why there is not any Buddhist,Non-Muslim African suicide bomber ?
Were London Bombers poor ? No.
Is Suspect Nigerian poor ? His dad is the richest man in Nigeria.
Were 9/11 attackers poor ? No,they were children of rich families.
Poorness is not and may not be Cause.It should be something else.

If al-Qaeda whispers in the ears *West hates your people*,correct information has to be said;
-Not only West,but East(India),North,South and Secular Muslims i.e. Whole World doesnt like Islam.
-Islam hates Whole World.This is Core Issue.

Friends
Please stop for a moment and think over:
1.If USA declares 'war on Terror' than terrorists also declare 'War on USA'
2.US army killing terrorists and civilians
in Iraq, Afganistan and Pakistan gives Terrorists justification for killing
American military or civilians
3.People in these countries dont understand
why and under what right USA is invading their countries and still fighting the people of these lands.
If you can not find "just" anwers to these questions I am afraid this war will continue!

Captn ahab, arif2, akafir, clearthinking1
and abhab1.

Stop cheating the readers you are one and the same person with these many names.

Useless to comment on the views of such a dishonest and morally corrupt person.

Not all Muslims terrorists, but all the terrorists are Muslims

More garbage from Eboo:

How are these killers islamic "extremists"?
They seem to be following the Koran and are consistant with the behavior of muslims for over a 1000 years.

The koran says "kill nonbelievers" (9:5).
Look at Pakistan. The entire society is comfortable with terrorism as state policy.

People who seem confused and ignorant about islam are like Ebrahim "Eboo" Patel. They keep defending the supremacist dogma of islam but want to have it both ways. They deny that the basic supremacist dogma leads to violence. This is true for Christianity also, but islam takes it to new heights. It combines ritualistic beheading of lambs, sheep, and other animals as "celebration" with beheading of humans as spreading a religion.

Terrorism is not new to islam. Read about what the Turks or Mughals or Persians have done. Was it not terrorism in the name of islam?

Why are there almost no zoroastrians or jews in Iran? No Hindus left in Pakistan? Few Coptic Christians in Egypt?

HEY EBOO. ENOUGH OF THE INTERFAITH STUFF. THE OTHER FAITHS ALREADY GET IT. Stop being an apologist for islamic terrorism and start trying to fix it. Peoples' patience is wearing out. Mild and tolerant people like the Hindus, Swiss, and Americans are stirring.

"There are certainly more than enough poor young Muslims brainwashed to become suicide bombers. Why take the time to recruit, train and deploy an upper-class Nigerian student in London?"

The Jordanian who blew himself up to kill the 7 CIA agents was a Doctor. As were the guys who wanted to kill by blowing their car and themselves in Scotland. The 19 of 911 were all rich and well educated. Most of the funding for the terror groups flowing from the Muslim countries is from rich and well educated classes. The poor middle class muslims

"Since 9/11 over 300,000 people have been killed in US auto accidents!

AQ can't can't compete with those stats!"

The liberals want to cite the number of deaths caused by auto accidents, smoking, cancer, traffic accidents, etc. etc. and compare that with those caused by "terrorism" to show that fighting terrorism is silly. This line of thinking shows the deep self-hate that permeates the liberal mind. Terrorist want to kill by the tens of thousands. It is because they have been confronted and fought that they have not acquired the technologies to kill us by the millions. They are getting there.

See what their ideology is doing in Pakistan. They are killing muslims that don't agree with them by the thousands already. They are destroying the civil society so they can win in the resulting chaos. They have been killing in Kashmir for the last 30 years and 100,000 people have died so far. And those that cannot see that the ideology that killed and is killing in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Kashmir, Philipines, Nigeria, Somalia, etc. is the same and AlQaeda is merely another group in the many groups are willfully blind. The multi-hydra monster will grow in strength till it is able to kill by the tens of thousands here. Is that what the liberals want to wait for? Long before that we will face the situation that the Kaafirs are facing in Europe. How many cars were burnt by the muslim youths around Paris this year around New Year?

If there is one thing people in the US and around the world need to fear its...lurking around every corner...coming in every color...and especially the innocent little children.... is the family car. Since 9/11 over 300,000 people have been killed in US auto accidents!

AQ can't can't compete with those stats!

I'll take the retired airline pilot's policy one step further.

I propose that all Muslims and Middle Easterners be banned from the United States, permanently.

As ABhab1 writes "Even the most moderate American, sitting there in Jeremiah Wright's church week after week, month after month, year after year, would have that God daan America theme running through his head, over and over and over and over."

It is important to realize that the Christian Fundamentalist base in the United States also helps exacerbate threat and importance to al-Qaeda.

To some degree the Christian Base needs this counterweight to define itself and justify political powers sought.

By using Islamic Fundamentalism to justify a matter of national security, it's a dead ringer for anyone to get into Presidency in the US simply stating they will fight for national security as a Christian against the so hard pressed efforts to bring focus TO Islamic fundamentalism.

The entire fiasco is manufactured.

Just walk away and the threat was never there.

Do you really think in the history of humanity ? all of a sudden ? in 2000 ? in the last 9 years ? we have to start living in fear of terror here on out forever ? until End Days locks in ?

Give me a break

Give yourself a break - Elect me in 2010.

Then elect me in 2012 !

Tim Miltz For Senate and then President !

I'll remedy this nation of it's abuse of religion to justify political foundations.

Eboo has one theory about what makes Muslims explode in the face of the infidels. Here is another presented by someone calling himself Jacob Thomas:

“All Muslims carry in their cultural and religious baggage a strong exclusivist belief that they are the guardians of Allah’s mission and message to all mankind. Danger is on the horizon when this belief becomes extreme and radicalized in certain Muslims. For such persons, this exclusivist may lie dormant in their consciousness until conditions become ripe for putting a more extreme face on this worldview, which in turn can lead to the commission of terrorist acts. A Muslim man’s journey starts in earnest when he begins attending mosques led by fiery and radical Imams. Such Imams harangue worshippers during the Friday worship services with messages filled with invectives against the Kuffar. All non-Muslims who do not submit to Islam fit into this hated category.
Even the most “moderate” Muslim, attending this type of Friday propagandistic services week after week and month after month, would be made susceptible to forming attitudes and a mindset extremely critical of all non-Muslims that could eventually wreak havoc in various ways, including terror attacks. The continuous virulence of such an Imam’s sermons, coupled no doubt with copious quotations from the Qur’an and the Hadiths backing up such rants, would inevitably trigger in the psyche of a believer a dangerous urge to do something “fi Sabeel Allah” (In the Pathway of Allah,). As recent history has proven, Muhammad ‘Atta and his vicious cohorts certainly gleaned hatred from such instruction and perpetrated the horror of 9-11."

1. Extremists are Muslims.
2. They read the same koran you do.
3. They say the same prayers you do.
4. They Say allah-hu-akbar like you do.
5. They go to the same mosques like other not-so-extreme Muslims do.
6. They are much more than just a "hand-full".

Yes a doctor/Engineer/coworker and a co-flyer can also become a terrorist at the drop of a match. Very un predictable Muslims in our midst.
It is not irrational fear it is very rational. The infidels approach is to try to destroy terrorist cells, improving airport security and remaining vigilant as you've pointed out. It's not the real solution.

The problem like I have pointed out above lies with Islam itself. Since Muslim terrorists have an affinity to explode in mid air on a Kafir airline. It should come as no surprise that we make Muslims fly Muslim-only-flights and stay segregated until... "Let these people deal with their own..."

Eboo Patel writes:

"Fear leads to prejudice. Prejudice increases alienation. Alienation allows al-Qaeda to whisper in the ears of the off-the-cliff few: "The West hates your people and disrespects your faith. Join us at this training camp to learn how to be a true Muslim."

So there is no problem inside Islam itself that needs to be addressed. Islamist suicide bombing is driven by prejudice against Muslims from outside,... or America's support for Israel, Western values, editorial cartoons featuring the Prophet,...

No there is nothing that has to be examined inside Islam itself....

Mr. Patel writes:

"Fear leads to prejudice. Prejudice increases alienation. Alienation allows al-Qaeda to whisper in the ears of the off-the-cliff few: "The West hates your people and disrespects your faith. Join us at this training camp to learn how to be a true Muslim."

So there is no problem inside Islam that needs to be addressed to stop this wave of Islamist terrorism. The problem is prejudice against Muslims from outside that is inspiring and facilitating terrorism... or maybe its America's support for Israel, the war in Iraq, or editorial cartoons of the Prophet,...

No there never is a need to address a problem inside Islam is there....