Are you Fing kidding me. Until they write up new rules of conduct for themselves I am not going to give them benefit of the doubt. Go see what they do in Philippines, & India and every where else where they are a significant minority.

Posted by: Secular

= = = = = = = = = =

No I'm not kidding. I don't believe that Muhammad considered the possibility of peacefully coexisting with members of other faiths.

In other words, the guy who made up Islam believed that Muslims COULD NOT peacefully co-exist with anyone in any society not dominated by Muslims.

We should keep that in mind.

I don’t think that he - given the nature of the religion he invented - contemplated the possibility that Muslims might be capable of living in a pluralistic society. So he never made any rules to address that sort of thing.

American Muslims are just going to have to develop social behavior rules of their own without referring to the Koran because this situation surely never crossed Muhammad’s mind.

Posted by: ZZim
___________________________________________

Are you Fing kidding me. Until they write up new rules of conduct for themselves I am not going to give them benefit of the doubt. Go see what they do in Philippines, & India and every where else where they are a significant minority.

So do you think American Muslims should force the American Jews and Christians to walk on the side when you meet them on the pathway? That is your prophet's sunnah. If you cannot implement it at present because the American Muslims are less then 2%, should the Kafirs expect that aspect of Sunnah to be implemented as their numbers grow larger?
Do you agree with this example set by your prophet, the exemplary human according to your Koran?
Posted by: AKafir

= = = = = = = = = = = =

I don’t think this particular rule is well-suited for the current situation here in America. In the verse in question Muhammad was probably setting down rules for how Muslims were to behave in conquered territories. As an occupying power, relying on terror and intimidation to stay in control, maximum arrogance was necessary. Everyone not a member of the club HAD to be treated like dirt in order to enforce the new rulers’ authority.

This is just how foreign conquerors treat subject populations they intend to control. The tiniest gesture of disrespect must be crushed with overwhelming force 100% of the time in order to keep the natives under control. That’s why Muhammad instructed his followers to treat conquered people that way.

I don’t think that he - given the nature of the religion he invented - contemplated the possibility that Muslims might be capable of living in a pluralistic society. So he never made any rules to address that sort of thing.

American Muslims are just going to have to develop social behavior rules of their own without referring to the Koran because this situation surely never crossed Muhammad’s mind.

Askiz:

A link from the Kafir country (so far) of UK:
http://www.central-mosque.com/fiqh/salam1.htm

“A believer may greet a non-Muslim (with the greeting of salam) if he has a need from him otherwise it is prohibitively disliked (makruh)……Therefore, one should abstain from saying Salam to the disbelievers, for the Hadith says: “Do not commence by greeting the Christians and Jews with Salam. If you meet one of them on a pathway, force them to walk on the side” recorded by al-Bukhari……. If a Jew, Christian or fire-worshipper greets you, then there is nothing wrong in replying to them, but one should not say more than ‘Wa alaykum’.

So do you think American Muslims should force the American Jews and Christians to walk on the side when you meet them on the pathway? That is your prophet's sunnah. If you cannot implement it at present because the American Muslims are less then 2%, should the Kafirs expect that aspect of Sunnah to be implemented as their numbers grow larger?

Do you agree with this example set by your prophet, the exemplary human according to your Koran?

Asizk: "American Muslims need be assertive and loud in confronting the frenzy of unjustified Islamophobia otherwise Islam and Muslim bashing will continue to be fashionable ecpecially for and manipulated by self-serving politicans and war mongers.
Islamophobes should know once and for all that American Muslims are her stay."

American Muslims should stand up for their rights and fulfill their obligations as citizens as well.
Islamophobe? Why do American Muslims throw that word created by a European Taqqiya Master Tariq Ramadan?
Americans have the right to free speech, don't they? Is questioning and examining Islam off limits?
In this paper today: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/09/AR2010100902499.html?hpid=sec-religion
"A Muslim should not begin greeting the non-Muslims. However, when the Jews, Christians, or others offer Salam (greetings), he should reply "Wa `Alaykum" (the same to you)

In a muslim country a muslims should not greet a non-muslim because that is being friendly with a non-muslim and a mild acceptance of his kufr. Will American muslims start treating Kafirs as muslims do around the world as soon as they gain some power here? Should the Kafirs be concerned about how nasty and brutal Islam is for them in all muslim countries in the world at present?

Asizk pontificates thus::
"Islamophobes should know once and for all that American Muslims are her stay."

A good advice to you and your ilk is not to overplay your hands. The Moors of Spain were much more numerous and more powerful than any Muslim entity in the West and thrived for 800 years where they became a majority in their regions. Where are they now? It does not pay to dare your hosts. You will do your cause a better service by integrating than by daring, name calling and challenging the indigenous population. But this is the fruit of the supremacist ideology you embrace.

Answer:Americans Muslims should hold their vigil in their homecaountry:the USA.

It is up to the citizens of sauid arabia..pakistan..etc too hold or not to hold their vigils there.

Posted by: asizk
_____________________________________________

But of course. Is this symmetrical? By that I mean do muslims elsewhere mind their own business regarding the so called plight of the muslims in US, or for that matter any where else except in their own back yard? Then why is there so much clamor in the Islamic world against Israel? Why do the muslims take it upon themselves to protest Israel in far away places as Malaysia, Indonesia, US, Canada, etc, etc. It is in Israel, let them protest there. If muslims maintain that in every part of the world no body would have any problem. This is the double standard, everyone complains. What do you have to say? It is this kind of double standard that makes the rest of the world has problem with. You demand every possible rights that is available and use every available recourse legal or otherwise. However, when you are confronted with the ugliness that goes for an Islamic society you take this escape route. Don't you think it the non-muslims in the Islamic countries deserve anything? Or do you think they are all Najlis that deserve what is being meted out to them? I know there wont be a response to this post of mine for sure. Even from Mr. Yousufi, either that paragon of virtue and piety.

If you don't want to, don't do it.

Nobody cares one way or the other. Diane Sawyer apparently does, but that just proves my point.

The Muslim-American community is already doing a great job of supporting the War on Terror by keeping radicals out of their mosques and reporting the ones who do show up to the FBI.

So keep up the good work, rally if you want, don't rally if you don't want to.

muhammadkutta,

I doubt that this your real name.

U question is naive and ignorant when u said:"Why don't Muslims hold a inter-faith vigil and marches in places where it is really needed- Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Kashmir, Iraq, Somalia.... all Muslim majority socities?"

Answer:Americans Muslims should hold their vigil in their homecaountry:the USA.

It is up to the citizens of sauid arabia..pakistan..etc too hold or not to hold their vigils there.

American Muslims are just as American as any one else-except Islamophobes.

American Muslims need be assertive and loud in confronting the frenzy of unjustified Islamophobia otherwise Islam and Muslim bashing will continue to be fashionable ecpecially for and manipulated by self-serving politicans and war mongers.

Islamophobes should know once and for all that American Muslims are her stay.

A one million march on Washington is a good idea and Americans of good well, decency and who are true to the Constitution and American values should join the march en masse.

Why don't Muslims hold a inter-faith vigil and marches in places where it is really needed- Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Kashmir, Iraq, Somalia.... all Muslim majority socities?

Eboo:
I had written three days ago:
"Non-muslims and women are discriminated against where ever muslims are in a majority. Why? Why are the existing laws of the muslim countries so hateful towards the non-muslims? Kindly explain that. Where ever the number of muslims have grown to a significant minority, problems for the non-muslims have multiplied. Why will it be any different for USA?

Can you please point to any country now or in history where non-muslims and women have not been discriminated by the Islamic Sharia?"
*************************
Garak's answer to that was that the jews are told to commit genocide in their scripture and hence it is acceptable for the muslims to be nasty to the non-muslims.

What is your answer? Muslims really do need to answer why are they so nasty ot non-muslims in their countries and why should anyone doubt that will be here as well eventually?

lufrank1, you are a clueless idiot. How many people have the Christain nutjobs killed recently? Now ask, how many people have the muslims killed recently? Not only have they killed thousands of the secular people who have taken them in but they also blow up other muslims on an almost daily rate in muslim countries. Muslims are responsible for more terrorist incidents than everyone sles combined. Islam is an evil cancer that must be removed from the west. We were much better off without them.

Until Muslims remove all the hateful passages in the Koran, accept people of all faiths as their equal and accept, revere and obey the American Constitution as we do, they are not welcome in this country and no amount of marching in OUR MAll will make them or Islam more acceptable to us ever.Marching in the Mall by itself is an act of taqiyya. When Muslims denouce, renounce terror and speak up against the vile unspeakable things that Islam and Sharia require them to do, they will never be welcome here. If they want to live here, they must have allegiance to our country, act and behave as Americans, not as one of the Ummah with their loyalties to Pakistan,Saudi Arabia etc.If they don't want to assimilate and live as one of us, then they must get out and go back to Saudi or wherever they came from. Islam is not a tolerant faith but a radical ideology intent on taking over our society and imposing Sharia and killing the infidel(us).I for one, will NEVER submit to that vile, vicious,patriarchial,woman-abusing, killing cult that is Islam. Reform Islam or get out.

LuFrank1,

Look at the laws of the Christian Countries. All of them are "secular" and muslims and other religions can practice their religions. Non-christians are treated as equals under the law. That is what meant by CHANGE, and not what some minority says because under freedom of speech people are entitled to say what they wish.

Now consider the laws of the Muslim countries. Non-muslims are treated as second class citizens and discrimination against the non-muslims is rampant. In "secular" Turkey, non-muslims are less than 1% of the population, but they still need a special dispensation from the office of the President to even repair their places of Worship. No muslim can easily give up Islam without endangering his life. He or she is lucky if they will end up in jail before they are killed.
The hatred for the non-muslims is built into the fabric of Islam, and all muslim countries implement that hatred in their laws which are derived from Sharia.

Posted by: ramakrishnahosur
“The problem with Islam is that it is not willing to change. Others have accepted the faults in their religion and have either abandoned them or changed. “
====================================================
Wow! The Vatican change its Dark Ages Dogma about contraception, sexual orientation, infallibility of the Pope, wafers turning into Jesus’ flesh, wine into the Blood of Jesus, that a clump of mindless human cells is a “baby” with a soul?????
Double Wow! Billy Graham, Pat Robertson and fundamentalist evangelical “Christians” change their amoral dogma that all (including children) who don’t accept Jesus as their personal God and Savior will burn FOREVER in torment, that homosexuals are sinful and bound for Hell????

Forget this idea of a million Muslims marching on our Mall in Washington.

Forget this idea of Muslims stating their "love" for America. That's oxymoronic. Muslims can't be Muslims and at the same time be American. Their Sharia and Koran prohibits such a straddling of loyalties.

It is consummate hypocrisy on their part.

Keep them off of our Mall.

Garak writes: "Their god commands them to eliminate non-Jews through genocide.

Can you please point to another religion that specifically commands genocide of others?"
*********************
I do not know Judaism very well.
Can you tell me where does YHVH (Jehovah) commands them to eliminate all non-Jews through genocide? Jehovah never claims to be a Universal God like Allah as far as I remember. He does tell the jews to kill certain tribes in the bible, but I do not know that he commands the jews to kill all non-jews till the end of time.

I do know that Islam's Allah does command the Muslims to fight and kill all those who will not either convert or submit to humiliation till Islam dominates the world. The command to kill the Kafir in Islam is universal and till the end of the world.

Even if Jehova is as blood thirsty as you claim He is, does that make Allah being blood thirsty acceptable? I do not understand the reason why muslims always feel the need to point fingers at other religions to say see how awful they are. Even if that is true, all that proves is that Islam and the other religion being pointed to are awful.

Does Allah (or Muhammad) commands the muslim to fight till Islam is the dominate over all others or not?

“I have been ordered to fight mankind until they say, “Laa ilaaha illallah wa anna Muhammadar Rasool-Ullah – There is none worthy of worship except Allah and Muhammad (saw) is the messenger of Allah.” If they say that, their blood and wealth will be saved from me, except from the right of Islam (the Sharee’ah); and their accountability will be with Allah.” (Musnad al-Imaam Ahmad)

Essentially the same message is in the Koran, and you know it I am sure.

It would be nice to see peace-loving, people-accepting, America-thanking Muslims do something to demonstrate their allegiance to the country they currently live in (USA).
Until they do, other Muslims will demonstrate other (conflicting) allegiances, loudly and clearly.

Like the age-old proverb: Silence signals agreement.

Akafir, Jews do not have to jump through hoops to prove anything, either. They simply have to explain a simple fact: Their god commands them to eliminate non-Jews through genocide.

Can you please point to another religion that specifically commands genocide of others?

Didn't think so.

"Depressing! So many comments Condemning Muslims..
So many "Christians" who HATE . . . but claim to worship a God of Love?
As I mentioned earlier - Hope I got to H_ll so I can be with GOOD folks!
Posted by: lufrank1 | October 9, 2010 4:06 PM"

first of all, judism, christianity and islam have the same roots...
Jews don't accept Jesus Christ as the son of GOD...
Muslims, well since they don't acknowledge they have the same roots as the Jews cannot possibly think we all worship the same GOD...
But I believe that all three recognize Moses as GOD's prophet...
and the ten commandments says we should not worship false Gods...
so do we all think the others GOD's are false when in truth, it's not...
it's the same GOD, which proves man is flawed...
and just looking to kill each other...
we better change fast before it's too late...
and by change, Islam is the only religion currently waging war on the world...
and there is more than enough evidence to back that statement up...

A million muslim march? Sounds great if they would keep marching to Tehran, Mecca, etc. and take millions more with them. This country was much better off before islami debut's have us standing shoeless in airports with 3 oz carry on, terror alerts, Christmas day underwear bombers and shoe bombers along with thousands of Americans killed by muslims that we admitted into this country. And I just scratched the surface. Think what this country would be like if we stopped importing these vermin just 15 to 20 years ago. Terrorism issues aside, on their best behaviour muslims are backward dark age primitives and have nothing but misery and trouble to offer. This country was so much better off before muslim ranks began to swell in the west. The Serbs must be laughing their butts off.

take ur BS religion to tehran or one of the other crapholes and march.

Depressing! So many comments Condemning Muslims..
So many "Christians" who HATE . . . but claim to worship a God of Love?
As I mentioned earlier - Hope I got to H_ll so I can be with GOOD folks!

Sigh! Just received a typical right wing WASP email from former High School friends in Birmingham.
It "documents" how Muslims are destroying civilizations.
The phraseology was somehow familiar - similar to the Bull Conner era (back before my family escaped the "Bible Belt" where good "Christians" believe that ONLY those who accept Jesus as their personal Savior will go to Heaven (applicable to even to children).
So sad! I believe I prefer a warmer "place" when I go? I don't like harps and I prefer a better moral grade of companion.

I like to think that US muslims do not hold jihadists in high regard. But this well-informed observer has read very little of anti-terrorism material written by them. I have read several books on islam and am informed that jihad is a basic tenet of islam. I have known only one US muslim and he was quite anti-American. Of course I have known many white American liberals and found them just as anti-American. Some have run for president and at least one was elected. The Democrat Party is an ideal spot for anti-Americans of all stripes.

Ebo,
There is nothing Muslims can do to make the vast majority of Americans accept them.
Islam is antithetical to a society such as ours which is built around the idea of the individual.
You have nothing to offer that we want.
It isn;t really a matter of hate so much as it is irrelevance.
We like the way we live.
We don't like the way you live and we have no intention of doing that,so your presence here while tolerated will never be more than that.
Unless, of course Muslims try to take over and impose their beliefs. There is plenty of precedent from the Taliban to Hamas to the Shabab.
That is what most Americans think will be attempted by Muslims eventually and based on what has happened elsewhere who is to say they are wrong?

A Million Muslim March is a wonderful idea to terrify the public.

America needs more Muslims about as much as France needs more Muslims.

They're brainwashed religious morons, on par with evangelicals.

Who's bringing the IED?

Hey, Muslims. Rally on the mall if you want. I'm still using pages from the Koran to wipe my rear end whether or not you protest. Now, if you'll excuse me, I feel a massive dump coming on.

This naked fact speaks volumes to citizens of the USA: Muslims in the USA, as a group, do not spontaneously WANT to demonstrate their support for and their loyalty and allegiance to the USA - on their own and out of a love of country - by organizing something like a Million Muslim March.

I would find it much easier to accept Muslims as freedom loving Americans if they would simply discontinue acting as if they were a "breed apart", i.e., above the laws that the rest of us live with. They seem to have little, if any, interest in becoming part of our society, and seem much more interested in forcing their ways (especially Sharia law) upon the rest of us.

"Many of the rituals, prejudices and practices of the Muslims are very similar to those of Judaism. Yet Jews seem to have succeeded in weaving themselves in the fabric of Western societies. Maybe Muslims can learn from the Jewish experience. It is very difficult to distinguish between a European or American Jew and Gentile."

Two thousand years of learning to keep their heads low to avoid pogroms, but still running into an evil resulting in the holocaust and a persistent 'low level' anti-Semitism with "Jews control the Banks, Hollywood, the Media, and what not", it is but natural to expect the Jews to learn the techniques of blending in with the host society which ever one it is. Indian Jews act Indian, Yemeni Jews act Yemeni, Iraqi Jews act Iraqi, etc.

Muslims on the other hand think of themselves as rulers of the world. Their Allah has promised them that Islam will dominate the world and Sharia will rule the planet. Their biggest grievance is that the West stole their "inheritance" and is occupying their lands and stealing their resources. The fact that there has been a massive transfer of wealth due to oil and the west has paid for it is turned into that the muslim rulers are puppets of the west and had there been a true muslim Khalifa the transfer of wealth would have been many times more etc. etc. Most muslim are incapable of seeing the problems and errors in these grievances.
It will take a long long time before one can expect the muslims to be able to accept the non-muslims as equals in this globalized world. In the mean time they will wreck havoc and create large amounts of violence.

Many of the rituals, prejudices and practices of the Muslims are very similar to those of Judaism. Yet Jews seem to have succeeded in weaving themselves in the fabric of Western societies. Maybe Muslims can learn from the Jewish experience. It is very difficult to distinguish between a European or American Jew and Gentile.

The problem with Islam is that it is not willing to change. Others have accepted the faults in their religion and have either abandoned them or changed. This is not possible with Islam because of the fear of attacks and threats that are issued.

Eboo wrote:

"But will a National Mall rally with Muslim women in star-spangled hijabs and toddlers hoisting placards with patriotic themes do the trick?"

No. We all know a trick when we see it. Reading Muslim minds is hard; reading hearts is easy.

cont'd
We will not sound the bells in our churches, except discretely, or raise our voices while reciting our holy books inside our churches in the presence of Muslims, nor raise our voices [with prayer] at our funerals, or light torches in funeral processions in the fairways of Muslims, or their markets. We will not bury our dead next to Muslim dead, or buy servants who were captured by Muslims. We will be guides for Muslims and refrain from breaching their privacy in their homes.' When I gave this document to `Umar, he added to it, `We will not beat any Muslim. These are the conditions that we set against ourselves and followers of our religion in return for safety and protection. If we break any of these promises that we set for your benefit against ourselves, then our Dhimmah (promise of protection) is broken and you are allowed to do with us what you are allowed of people of defiance and rebellion.'''
********************************

Most of these conditions that Umar imposed on the dhimmis among the muslims are still intact for them across the muslim lands. They were incorporated into Islamic Sharia and much of it have been transferred to the laws of the muslim countries at present.

Have the muslims anywhere done anything to remove the hatred that these laws represent for the non-muslims? Have you? You want Americans to like muslims? Well then start speaking against the laws that are hateful towards another human. Write against the injustice of what Hajj represents, and not sing praises of it every year. Write against the hate that Copts have to live with in Egypt, that Bahais have to live with in Iran, that christians have to live with in Pakistan. Can you? Can you say that the Non-muslims are not Najis (as filthy as urine and feces) and hence there is no reason to deny them access to Mecca? Can you say that it is wrong of the Saudis to not let a Kafir be buried or cremated in Saudi Arabia because he is filthy and they want any non-islamic prayer to be even uttered in Arabia? There are so many many things that the American Muslims could be doing, but instead you are trying to tell the Kafirs that none of this hate in Islam really exists and they are being Islamophobic when they point this out to you.

From Ibn Kathir's exegesis on Koran 9:29
This is why Allah compensated Muslims for their losses by the amount of Jizyah that they took from the people of Dhimmah.
Paying Jizyah is a Sign of Kufr and Disgrace
Therefore, Muslims are not allowed to honor the people of Dhimmah or elevate them above Muslims, for they are miserable, disgraced and humiliated. Muslim recorded from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet said,

«لَا تَبْدَءُوا الْيَهُودَ وَالنَّصَارَى بِالسَّلَامِ، وَإِذَا لَقِيتُمْ أَحَدَهُمْ فِي طَرِيقٍ فَاضْطَرُّوهُ إِلَى أَضْيَقِه»

(Do not initiate the Salam to the Jews and Christians, and if you meet any of them in a road, force them to its narrowest alley.) This is why the Leader of the faithful `Umar bin Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, demanded his well-known conditions be met by the Christians, these conditions that ensured their continued humiliation, degradation and disgrace. The scholars of Hadith narrated from `Abdur-Rahman bin Ghanm Al-Ash`ari that he said, "I recorded for `Umar bin Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, the terms of the treaty of peace he conducted with the Christians of Ash-Sham: `In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. This is a document to the servant of Allah `Umar, the Leader of the faithful, from the Christians of such and such city. When you (Muslims) came to us we requested safety for ourselves, children, property and followers of our religion. We made a condition on ourselves that we will neither erect in our areas a monastery, church, or a sanctuary for a monk, nor restore any place of worship that needs restoration nor use any of them for the purpose of enmity against Muslims. We will not prevent any Muslim from resting in our churches whether they come by day or night, and we will open the doors [of our houses of worship] for the wayfarer and passerby. Those Muslims who come as guests, will enjoy boarding and food for three days. We will not allow a spy against Muslims into our churches and homes or hide deceit [or betrayal] against Muslims. We will not teach our children the Qur'an, publicize practices of Shirk, invite anyone to Shirk or prevent any of our fellows from embracing Islam, if they choose to do so. We will respect Muslims, move from the places we sit in if they choose to sit in them. We will not imitate their clothing, caps, turbans, sandals, hairstyles, speech, nicknames and title names, or ride on saddles, hang swords on the shoulders, collect weapons of any kind or carry these weapons. We will not encrypt our stamps in Arabic, or sell liquor. We will have the front of our hair cut, wear our customary clothes wherever we are, wear belts around our waist, refrain from erecting crosses on the outside of our churches and demonstrating them and our books in public in Muslim fairways and markets.
cont'd

Eboo,

Muslims do not have jump through any hoops to prove anything. They simply have to explain a very simple fact: Non-muslims and women are discriminated against where ever muslims are in a majority. Why? Why are the existing laws of the muslim countries so hateful towards the non-muslims? Kindly explain that. Where ever the number of muslims have grown to a significant minority, problems for the non-muslims have multiplied. Why will it be any different for USA?

Can you please point to any country now or in history where non-muslims and women have not been discriminated by the Islamic Sharia?

"If statements of condemnation are cheap and rallies are photo ops, then what can be done to convince Americans to like Muslims?"

Have Muslims stop engaging in terrorism and have a serious, intellectual conversation about dealing with the sections of the Quran, as well as many hadith, that are easily interpreted, due to the fact many are quite explicit, to encourage the use of violence in order to achieve the goals of Islam.

I completely agree with the author of the article in that such a march would most likely have the opposite effect of what would be intended since such rallies are rightly perceived as truly lacking in any substance anyway and such a mass display by Muslims would likely cause even more apprehension in the hearts of those who already fear Islam. This is an ideological struggle and the Muslim leadership, whether it be academics, the ulema, or other intellectuals, must present a cogent counter-argument that is as consistent with most Islamic principles but which obliterates the ideology of the Anjem Choudrys of the world, of which there are many more than anyone would like to admit. And, this argument must be propagated throughout the Muslim world. But, of course, first Muslims have to recognize the reality that there are some real issues with the Quran and shariah, and address these problems with a critical analysis and intellectual honesty that I have not seen in the public discussions involving Muslims.