billybob100

You wrote, "It is also important to realize the sacrifices and the important role of Mary in God's plan to save humanity."

I agree that Mary is very important in God's Plan, she was chosen by God to be the mother of God-Incarnate before creation and God also has had His entire Plan in His "Mind" since before creation, it is not some haphazard Plan that God fumbles and bumbles with along the way.

Also, Mary had to freely give her "YES" and then she had to live her "YES".

You then wrote, "Jesus honors His Mother with the highest regards and wants us to honor His mother just the same; thus his command: "Behold your mother!""

Yes, we should honor Mary but we should not let this honoring lead to idolatry.

Jesus did not just say, "Behold your mother", but also "Behold your son", in this case the "Beloved", stood in for the entire human race.

You then wrote, "Re the Bible passage line: "He had no relations with her until she bore a son, and he named him Jesus."

and "This is the purpose of the passage line; it does not in any way refers to Mary's relationship with Joseph after Jesus was born."

The actually wording seems to go against what others have concluded and that you concur with. I, personally, believe that Mary and Joseph had a very loving and quite "normal" marriage after this extraordinary event and if Mary and Joseph had children together it doesn't take away from the "ever virginness" concerning Mary's spiritual virginity as taught in the Immaculate Conception.

You then wrote, "I will have to say I both "believe and know" that to be the truth. I know that is the truth because Jesus Himself proclaimed: "This IS My Body", and "This IS My Blood"."

By what you have written, I would have to disagree with you saying that you "know" because I am going by the literal meaning of the word "know", it seems as if you believe, maybe even fervently believe but you do not "know", the words (believe and know) do not mean the same thing.

As it is written, faith (believing) is a gift that "no man should boast" so you should be thankful for this gift.

You then wrote, "Can you share that experience? I admire you for your strong conviction of that profound truth."

I can try, the Holy Spirit came into my body and I knew it was the Holy Spirit, just as I knew it was God the Father that came into my heart the day before, and when I walked up in the communion line when I got near, in a moment, I just knew, no words, no visions, nothing of the sort, I just knew, by the way, I didn't even receive communion at that Mass, I thought it was over, so to speak, since I had met the whole Trinity, so to speak, but in a way it was just beginning.

Also, it is not a conviction, it is a "fact" that I know, because God revealed it to me.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

ThomasBaum,

Indeed, the most important thing is to realize Jesus, our Lord and God, died for us and saved us; and through his resurrection, He conquered death and opened the door for us to be with God The Father in Heaven.

It is also important to realize the sacrifices and the important role of Mary in God's plan to save humanity. By honoring and respecting Mary because of her sacrifices and obedience to God, we are also honoring her Son, Jesus. Jesus honors His Mother with the highest regards and wants us to honor His mother just the same; thus his command: "Behold your mother!"

Re the Bible passage line: "He had no relations with her until she bore a son, and he named him Jesus."
This is a very important part of the Bible. It was very clear from earlier Bible passages that Mary had no conjugal relation with any man prior to her conceiving Jesus through the Holy Spirit. But her pregnancy was 9 months long, therefore it was necessary to to be clear that throughout her pregnancy, Mary and Joseph had no conjugal relations. In this way, there can be no doubt that Jesus is not Joseph's real son. This is the purpose of the passage line; it does not in any way refers to Mary's relationship with Joseph after Jesus was born.

You asked if I "believe or know" that the Holy Eucharist IS Jesus.
I will have to say I both "believe and know" that to be the truth. I know that is the truth because Jesus Himself proclaimed: "This IS My Body", and "This IS My Blood".
However, I do not have the priviledge to touch Jesus's wounds like Thomas the Apostle did. Therefore, I can only be one of those that "did not see but believe".

ThomasBaum, you have indicated that you had a more personal experience with the Holy Spirit that allowed you to now "know" that the Catholic Eucharist is Jesus. If that is the case, then you are blessed. Can you share that experience? I admire you for your strong conviction of that profound truth.

Some post get the following message:
The Faith Divide

Muslim interfaith activist Eboo Patel looks at how religion divides us and unites us.

Thank you for commenting.

Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner.

Return to the original entry.

Yet very short one get posted, why?

Where is my last post gone?

billybob100

You wrote, "ThomasBaum, I encourage you not to be another "Doubting Thomas","

If you notice, it was "Doubting Thomas" who said, "My Lord and My God", none of the other Apostles said and meant such a statement of Faith.

You also wrote, "but rather to pray to the Holy Spirit for understanding and guidance. You will know the truth in your heart."

And the truth is that the important thing is that God became One of us and died for All of us, not whether or not Mary was a biological virgin her whole life and whether or not Mary and Joseph had children.

Have you ever read the verse that follows this Sunday's Gospel reading, "He had no relations with her until she bore a son, and he named him Jesus."?

You wrote, "In those times, a woman living alone without any husband or son is considered cursed."

Wasn't someone "Who hung on a tree", or words to that effect, also considered "cursed"?

You wrote, "…”But go to My brothers”".

Brothers can mean different things in the bible, just as brothers and sisters can also mean "brothers and sisters".

By the way, have you ever met Dad, have you ever met the Holy Spirit?

Do you know or do you believe that the Catholic Eucharist is Jesus.

The words "know and believe" do not mean the same thing.

I used to believe that the Catholic Eucharist is Jesus but since the Holy Spirit revealed to me on 29 Jan 2000 that the Catholic Eucharist is Jesus, I now know it.

Sometimes, we get so caught up in dogma that we lose sight of what God has done for humanity even tho it's fulfillment hasn't yet come about.

Didn't Jesus become One of us to reconcile God and humanity?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

ThomasBaum,

Those who argue that Mary did not maintain her virginity because the Bible referenced Jesus' “brothers” had mistakenly interpret the term “brothers” in the literal meaning—when it can refer to “cousins”, “friends”, and even His “disciples”.
Such an example can be seen in (John 20:17-20): After Jesus rose from the dead, he appeared to Mary Madelene and instructed her …”But go to My brothers” to announce the good news; Mary Madelene immediately obey and bring word to the disciples of the risen Jesus. The disciples then gather together that evening and Jesus appeared to them. (The one disciple not there was "doubting" Thomas)

Again referencing (John 19:25-27): In those times, a woman living alone without any husband or son is considered cursed. Since Mary had no other sons besides Jesus, Jesus in thinking of His mother, had entrusted her to his disciple John, and thus she moved into John’s home. At the same time He entrusted his disciple John (and thus all of humanity) to His Mother Mary. (And thus, Mary had appeared throughout history to warn, help, and encourage her children to repent and return to God, such as Our Lady of Fatima and Our Lady of Lourdes).

ThomasBaum, I encourage you not to be another "Doubting Thomas", but rather to pray to the Holy Spirit for understanding and guidance. You will know the truth in your heart.

billybob100

You wrote, "This does not mean that "eating/food" is bad; but certainly "fasting" is more virtuous than "eating".
In the same way, those who "maintain their chastity as an offering to God" is more virtuous than those who "satisfy their human desires--even in the framework of marriage".

Just why is fasting more virtuous than eating?

Jesus mentioned that He came eating and drinking and that "they" called Him a "drunk and a glutton", are you saying that Jesus was "less virtuous" than John who came fasting as Jesus pointed out?

Chastity does not mean celibacy.

You also wrote, "Joseph is Mary's stand-n spouse. The Holy Spirit is Mary's heavenly Spouse. Joseph accepted Mary as his wife before the law, even though they did not have conjugal relations."

"Stand-in spouse"? You mentioned that the Holy Spirit is Mary's heavenly spouse that would make Joseph, Mary's earthly spouse, not a "stand-in".

Joseph and Mary got married, at least I believe they did, the Angel said to Joseph to take Mary as your wife not as a "stand-in spouse", isn't this what the Angel said to Joseph?

As far as Joseph and Mary having conjugal relations, I very much believe that Joseph and Mary were "completely" married because, even tho I am not sure of this, the marriage wouldn't have been considered a marriage until it was consummated.

You then wrote, "Again referring to John 19:25-27, if Jesus had any brother or sister, why didn't any of them show up to be with Jesus at his dying moments?"

Who knows, maybe they were just as afraid as the rest of the Apostles and quite a few other people or it could have been a completely different reason or a multitude of reasons.

You then wrote, "Again, Jesus did not direct Mary to go live with John, that was her decision. If she had other children, there would be no reason for her to move into John's home."

As you said, Mary made the decision, just why, I guess you can ask her when you meet her.

You said that Mary had no reason, if she had other children, to make the decision that she made, who are you or anyone else to tell Mary how she should have lived her life and what decisions she was allowed to make?

You also wrote, "Jesus did not do this just so we all realize "we are all Jesus' brothers and sisters"; He had refered to everyone as his brothers and sisters before, because God the Father is the Father of us all. He specifically meant for Mary His Mother to be our Mother. Which is why I consider Mary to be my Heavenly Mother; I follow Jesus' command: "Behold your mother!""

Not "just so" but it is one of the reasons.

I also consider Mary my sister, on of the ways that the Catholic Church speaks of Mary is the daughter of the Father, the mother of the Son and the spouse of the Holy Spirit, doesn't it?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

What Eboo fails to mention:

The real Islam:

Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the ma-ssacre in Mumbai, the assassinations of Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/
market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, the Ft. Hood follower of the koran, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds this muck and stench of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

Current crises:

The Sunni-Shiite blood feud and the warmongering, womanizing (11 wives), hallucinating founder.

There are points at which Sufi, Jewish, Hindu, and Christian mysticism have met.

There isn't much to worry about re SEcular. It is following in the footsteps of two other bloggers who were ultimately blocked.

It is trying to enlist bloggers against one another (another blogger against me). That will do it. It did in the past, and it should.

Secular panicked because it was being ignored.

Yasser, the problem will take care of itself. You are right. No need to paste from its sacred texts, to consider the effects of excessive urine and feces consumption on its remaining brain cell. Ignore it as everyone else does.

LAST INDULGENCE

Rig Veda 10.61.5-7, 1.71.5,1.71.8, 1.164.33 As his penis was stretched out in eagerness for the act of a man, the manly one pulled back. He drew back again from the maiden, his daughter, that tireless phallus which had been thrust in. As they were in the midst of the very act of union, when the father was satisfying his desire for the younger girl, the two of them left a little of the out-flowing seed shed upon the back of the earth in the womb of good deeds. When the father shed his seed in his own daughter, he split his seed on the earth as he united with her. The benevolent gods created sacred speech and fashioned Rudra Vastospati, the protector of sacred rites….. As Agni made the seed for the great father, heaven , he entered into the womb, having noticed that she was inclined to him. The hunter shot an arrow at him boldly. The god satisfied his lust in his own daughter….As the heat of passion came to the king for his enjoyment, heaven laid aside on the ground the seed that had been spilt. Agni caused to be born the blameless benevolent group of youth and made them great…. Heaven is my father, the engenderer, the navel here. My mother is this wide earth , my close kin , Between these two outstretched bowls is the womb (it is translated as womb literally Vagina-yoni ) in it the father placed his , daughter’s embryo

Posted by: FarnazMansouri2 |

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This is no indulgence but your obsession trying to get me. It betrays your bigotry and petulant bratishness of a primadonna. As I said, you read one vile text and you read them all the vile texts. Vile texts are vile no matter where they were written and by whom. What else can anyone expect of the bronze age myths, be they be Vedic, or from OT or is it tanakh, or al kittab. They are all vile and decrypt, as I said leave the pig manure on the dust heap of human history.

Before we discuss the ridiculous stages of fetus growth according to the “book of Allah” let us examine the starting material.
What was Man Created From?
Dust
Yusuf Ali: The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was.
Qur'an 3:59
Nothing
Yusuf Ali: But does not man call to mind that We created him before out of nothing?
Qur'an 19:67
Clay
Yusuf Ali: We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape;
Qur'an 15:26
Sperm
Yusuf Ali: He has created man from a sperm-drop; and behold this same (man) becomes an open disputer!
Qur'an 16:4
Blood clot
Yusuf Ali: Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood:
Qur'an 96:2
Water
Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?
Qur'an 21:30
Allah's hands
(Allah) said: "O Iblis! What prevents thee from prostrating thyself to one whom I have created with my hands? Art thou haughty? Or art thou one of the high (and mighty) ones?"
Qur'an 38:75

LAST INDULGENCE

Rig Veda 10.61.5-7, 1.71.5,1.71.8, 1.164.33 As his penis was stretched out in eagerness for the act of a man, the manly one pulled back. He drew back again from the maiden, his daughter, that tireless phallus which had been thrust in. As they were in the midst of the very act of union, when the father was satisfying his desire for the younger girl, the two of them left a little of the out-flowing seed shed upon the back of the earth in the womb of good deeds. When the father shed his seed in his own daughter, he split his seed on the earth as he united with her. The benevolent gods created sacred speech and fashioned Rudra Vastospati, the protector of sacred rites….. As Agni made the seed for the great father, heaven , he entered into the womb, having noticed that she was inclined to him. The hunter shot an arrow at him boldly. The god satisfied his lust in his own daughter….As the heat of passion came to the king for his enjoyment, heaven laid aside on the ground the seed that had been spilt. Agni caused to be born the blameless benevolent group of youth and made them great…. Heaven is my father, the engenderer, the navel here. My mother is this wide earth , my close kin , Between these two outstretched bowls is the womb (it is translated as womb literally Vagina-yoni ) in it the father placed his daughter’s embryo

Yasser, I see no other way with either Secular or CCNL.

I've been following Rambollini. He is CCNL
The best way to get rid of him sooner rather than later is to email Elizabeth Tenety, ASP.

He has been officially barred from this site and was blocked.

IGNORE Secular, as most in fact, do. Only when It seems to attract the attention of those unfamiliar with Its nature, should Its postings be addressed and then only to warn those It has snared.

***************************************

I am taking a cue from you Farnaz! This Senile man indeed like CCNL is a masochist who enjoys being humiliated because that way at least he is being noticed. So I am relieving him of his lifeline so that he may die his own death like CCNL.

In Quran, more is written about Moses than about any other prophet, including Muhammad.

*********************************

Absolutely! One would think If Muhammad was writing the Quran himself there would be a lot of personal stories regarding his companions and family member but instead Quran talks more about the Prophets of Banu Israel than any other living person.

Posted by: yasseryousufi

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But of course much was said about Musa. He was the role model for MO. How could he justify all his atrocities? Musa was a convenient tool. While Musa was an mythical character, MO is indeed a historical figure. While the Musa's atrocities were some ancient ignorants wet dreams, MO's atrocities were in fact real.

Of course Al Kittab is full of MO's stories. Don't you remember his beloved child bride Ayesha mocking him about allah providing him with self serving revelations. Not my concoction, but Ayesha's astute observation. Shame she did not follow up. But then being in the good books of MO was lot more beneficial to her. She may have been a child bride but she is no fool.

BTW Al Kittab also says that the first the skeletal system is formed and then the flesh is added on it. Just like you make stuffed animals. That was indeed brilliant development of the fetus. The whole thing was imperfectly designed by Evolution, not a benefaction of some sill sky-daddy.

In Quran, more is written about Moses than about any other prophet, including Muhammad.

*********************************

Absolutely! One would think If Muhammad was writing the Quran himself there would be a lot of personal stories regarding his companions and family member but instead Quran talks more about the Prophets of Banu Israel than any other living person.

In Quran, more is written about Moses than about any other prophet, including Muhammad.

For the full tafseer of this chapter dealing with man's birth refer to this link

http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=23&tid=34787

...
Regarding creating Mankind from the clot of blood you dont eve know what you are talking about. This is one of the miracles of Quran. How accurately and explicitly it explains the birth of a human right from its inception. Just read these lines and marvel at the knowledge that was being given to mankind 1500 years ago and tell be what preceding greek book tells so eloquently about what was something of a mystery back then:

The Sign of Allah in the progressive creation of Man from Clay then from Nutfah and thereafter

(And among His signs is this that He created you (Adam) from dust, and then -- behold you are human beings scattered!) [30:20]

(Thereafter We made him a Nutfah.)

(and He began the creation of man from clay. Then He made his offspring from semen of despised water)

(Did We not create you from a despised water Then We placed it in a place of safety.) [77:20-21] meaning the womb, which is prepared and readily equipped for that,

(For a known period. So We did measure; and We are the Best to measure) [77:22-23] meaning, for a known period of time, until it is established and moves from one stage to the next. Allah says here,

(Then We made the Nutfah into a clot,) meaning, `then We made the Nutfah, which is the water gushing forth that comes from the loins of man, i.e., his back, and the ribs of woman, i.e., the bones of her chest, between the clavicle and the breast. Then it becomes a red clot, like an elongated clot.' `Ikrimah said, "This is blood.''

(then We made the clot into a little lump of flesh,) which is like a piece of flesh with no shape or features.

(then We made out of that little lump of flesh bones,) meaning, `We gave it shape, with a head, two arms and two legs, with its bones, nerves and veins.'

(then We clothed the bones with flesh,) meaning, `We gave it something to cover it and strengthen it.'

(and then We brought it forth as another creation.) means, `then We breathed the soul into it, and it moved and became a new creature, one that could hear, see, understand and move.

(and then We brought it forth as another creation. ) "We change it from one stage to another until it emerges as an infant, then it grows up through the stages of being a child, adolescent, youth, mature man, old man and senile man"

(The creation of anyone of you is gathered for forty days in his mother's stomach as a Nutfah, then he becomes a clot for a similar period of time, then he becomes a little lump of flesh for a similar length of time. Then the angel is sent to him and he breathes the soul into it, and four things are decreed: his provision, his life-span, his deeds, and whether he will be wretched or blessed. By the One besides Whom there is no other god, one of you may do the deeds of the people of Paradise until there is no more than a forearm's length between him and it, then the decree will overtake him and he will do the deeds of the people of Hell and thus enter Hell.

The dime a dozen "graduates" of the Fox News and Jihadwatch.com Madrassah of Anti Muslim Hatred, with their puffed up rhetoric "I Know all about you Mooslums" lay bare their embarrassing half cooked knowledge of Islam on these blogs everyday. STUBLORE is just another addition in the long list of the resident "experts of Islam" of this site. He gained
his knowledge of Islam from the familiar "unblemished" and "respected" sources like Ayyan Hirsi Ali, Christopher Hitchens, Ibn Warraq, Wafa Sultan, Jihadwatch.com etc by his own admission. Just like Neo Nazis who reads anti-semitic writings by hatefull authors of their own creed and claim they know all about Jews, these muslim bashers only read anti Islamic material by authors whom they know will tell them what they want to hear about islam. So should one really waste energy and time debating these mildly educated, hate filled, impostering buffoons?

Stublore for instance doesn't understand a word of Arabic yet he tells me the Quran he listened to was meandering, sleep inducing and torchering! Huh? Tells me that the opinion of a billion and a half of humanity doesn't count and the Quran is indeed meandering, Sleep inducing and torcherous because "HE" says so! Oh and this know-all also doesn't believe the
fact that is accepted by every historian worth his salt that Prophet was illiterate. Yet again he will provide no proofs for his outlandish claims just squirm and post non-sensical justifications.

True to his form he picks up a translation of verse of Quran out of context and claims he has found a false statement. Little does he know, that a lot of holy quran is still codified and the nuances cannot be understood by mere translations. So the Devils, Evil Ones etc. as the different translations go, that are driven away by falling meteors are not Devils in the sense we know of them. However, those who claim Muhammad wrote the Quran wouldn't care to explain how an illiterate man could be talking of stars lighting up the earth of which some are moving and some are stationary and meteor showers 1500 years ago??

Continues above......

One wonders if Eboo's "love of the Virgin Mary" is simply a ploy to get Catholics to donate to his "non-profit", tax-dodge?

Yasser challenges:

“Show me one statement from Quran that you can prove to be false!”
I can show you hundreds. Below is just one example.
How long is Allah's day?
One thousand years
“Yet they ask thee to hasten on the Punishment! But Allah will not fail in His Promise. Verily a Day in the sight of thy Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning.” Qur'an 22:47
Fifty thousand years
The angels and the spirit ascend unto him in a Day the measure whereof is (as) fifty thousand years: Qur'an 70:4

http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Contradictions_in_the_Quran

Well thats news to me because Clearthinking has clearly denied to me he is a Hindu and on several occasions told me he is a White American who is only interested in learning about Hinduism.
-------------------------
Puzzling. Clearthinking has posted extensively on Hindu scriptures, as well as on western philosophy and on the interrelations of the two.

He is thoroughly familiar with Indian history and politics, and draws on both with great ease.

?

At this point, I think it best to ignore SECULAR. It is an illiterate antisemitic, antiIslamic, whining, muling racist dolt with whom one cannot enter into dialogue.

This Nazi, as I mentioned earlier, literally made community with another Nazi blogger, who has been identified as a member of StormFront (Nazis), was so identified years ago.

There will reach a point when Secular is denied access to this blog as Rambollini/CCNL/Yael/Tom, et al was. It will then do as RAmbollini has done and worm Its way back, only to be removed again as Rambollini will be.

IGNORE Secular, as most in fact, do. Only when It seems to attract the attention of those unfamiliar with Its nature, should Its postings be addressed and then only to warn those It has snared.

Attention Bloggers and ELIZABETH TENETY:

RAMBOLLINI-1 IS A SOCK PUPPET FOR CCNL-1, YAEL, TOM, ET AL.

HE WAS PERMANENTLY BLOCKED FROM THIS BLOG BY DAVID WATERS.

KINDLY RESTORE BLOCK ASAP.

continued:
Therefore, if ever an embryo appeared to look like a clot, it would never develop any further into a human; it would be a dead mass of bloody miscarriage. Since Prophet Muhammad had some thirteen wives, it is entirely possible that he would be very familiar with miscarriages.
Modern science tells us that the formation of human embryo is a seamless continuation from conception to the birth; hence there are no hard-and-fast boundaries of stages as the Quran described. The Quran described 4 stages, which match exactly with Galenic description of the development of the human embryo (proven wrong by modern science).

6)I have never claimed to be an expert on islam, but I will certainly here make the claim that I am not ignorant of islam. What I have learned has been from talking to muslims and their replies. It's from books, such as Why I am not a muslim by Ibn Warraq, listening to the likes of Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Christopher Hitchens, Wafa Sulta, Father Zakaria Botros and many others. Reading websites like Jihadwatch(which contrary to your claim has not been discredited), faithfreedom.org, Council of Ex-Muslims of Britain, Memri.org, yanabi.com and many other sites, speakers and books.

Oh forgot this beauty from the inerrant koran:
054.001
YUSUFALI: The Hour (of Judgment) is nigh, and the moon is cleft asunder.
PICKTHAL: The hour drew nigh and the moon was rent in twain.
SHAKIR: The hour drew nigh and the moon did rend asunder.

Mo split the moon, but no one else on the planet noticed!!!!
Infallible, inerrant word of god my arse!!

What are your credentials?

The Five Easy Steps for Deprogramming 1400 Years of Islamic Myths:

Are you ready?

Using "The 77 Branches of Islamic "faith" a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi as a starting point. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true "faith" (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.

"1. Belief in Allah"

aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc. should be added to your cleansing neurons.

"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."

Evolution and the Big Bang or the "Gib Gnab" (when the universe starts to recycle) are more plausible and the "akas" for Allah should be included if you continue to be a "creationist".

"3. To believe in the existence of angels."

A major item for neuron cleansing. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No angels or satans ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the de-mented.

"4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."

Another major item to delete. There are no books written in the spirit state of Heaven (if there is one) just as there are no angels to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.

Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the uneducated masses in line. Today we call them fortune tellers.

Prophecies are also invali-dated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.

"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him)alone."

Mohammed spent thirty days "fasting" (the Ramadan legend) in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via Gabriel. Common sense demands a neuron deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic violence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallucinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.

Walk these five steps and we guarantee a complete recovery from your Islamic ways!!!

YASSERYOUSUFI
1)Now you've gone from saying:
"YASSERYOUSUFI
"
I do not know what a moderate muslim is"
To be able to categorically tell me what a moderate muslim is not! Amazing what you can "learn" in the space of day.Perhaps you will deign to tell us, What is a moderate muslim?

2)Again an assertion. An assertion is NOT proof, hopefully you now know the difference.

3)Another assertion. As such may be disregarded.

4)Numbers do not make any argument more or less truthful. The fact that you have to use a billion followers as an example shows your actual lack of substance.

5)I never said muslims had not made a contribution to Science, in fact many of their contributions were made in spite of their religion. Shifting the goalposts mid discussion is a sure sign you are on the loosing side. Remember I was talking about Scientific Miracles alleged in the koran, and my point remains unrefuted.

067.005
YUSUFALI: And we have, (from of old), adorned the lowest heaven with Lamps, and We have made such (Lamps) (as) missiles to drive away the Evil Ones, and have prepared for them the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.
PICKTHAL: And verily We have beautified the world's heaven with lamps, and We have made them missiles for the devils, and for them We have prepared the doom of flame.
SHAKIR: And certainly We have adorned this lower heaven with lamps and We have made these missiles for the Shaitans, and We have prepared for them the chastisement of burning.

Anyone who believes meteors or shooting stars are to drive away evil djinns/devils is, quite frankly an imbecile. And remember according to your canon, this is direct from the mouth of god!!! Try this explanation in an Astronomy class and listen to the deserved howls of laughter and derision sure to follow!

And this gem:
Man is created from clotted blood (?)
 Quran-23:14: Then fashioned We the drop a CLOT OF CONGEALED
BLOOD then fashioned We the clot a little lump (fetus), fashioned We the little lump into bones, then clothed the bones with flesh, and then produced it another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of Creators.
 Quran-75:38: Then he becomes a CLOT; then (Allah) shaped and fashioned…
 Quran-96:2: Created man, out of a mere clot of congealed blood
There are serious scientific problems here
A blood-clot can not grow into anything. This idea came from the Greeks. Aristotle erroneously believed that humans are originated from the action of male semen upon female menstrual blood, which is absolutely an incorrect assumption. The Quran’s assertion on the clot (alaqa) is completely wrong about human development, since there is absolutely no stage during which the embryo consists of a clot. The only situation in which an embryo might appear like a clot is during a miscarriage, in which case the clotted blood which is seen to emerge (much of which comes from the mother) is solidified and by definition no longer alive.

For deep perusal as documented by most contemporary NT exegetes:

The Apostles' Creed 2010:

I might believe in a god whose existence cannot be proven and said god if he/she/it exists resides in an unproven,
human-created state of bliss called heaven.

I believe there was a 1st century CE, Jewish, simple, preacher-man who was conceived by a Jewish carpenter
named Joseph living in Nazareth and born of a young Jewish girl named Mary.

Jesus was summarily crucified for being a temple rabble-rouser by the Roman troops in Jerusalem serving under under Pontius Pilate,

He was buried in an unmarked grave and still liesa-mouldering in the ground somewhere outside of Jerusalem.

Said Jesus' story was embellished and "mythicized" by many local semi-fiction writers. A bodily resurrection and
ascension story was promulgated to compete with the Caesar myths. Said stories were so popular that they grew into a religion known today as Catholicism/Christianity
and featuring dark-age, daily wine to blood and bread to body rituals
called the eucharistic sacrifice of the non-atoning Jesus.

Amen

One last thing about Farnaz, she dreams up my pedigree her fertile imagination dreams up. For some time she ascribed female gender to me, often referring to me as "she", "her". Now she refers to me "he", "him". While I don't recall I have ever stipulated my gender in any of my posts, not that it matters. My views are mine regardless of my gender and the gender is inconsequential.

Then she started to characterize me as an Indian official of some sort and yet as an Indian politician. I have to say I am neither nor ever was. But then that's what we get from a person with fertile imagination. Fertilized most likely by pig manure.

Actually I withdraw that last sentence. I should heed to that old saying by Confucius, where in the old sage said "When a wise man and a fool rumble it is hard tell them apart". So Franaz I take back that sentence about Pig Manure. And I will in the future let your vituperations roll of my back - promise.

No, it is not taught by any, as far as I know, that Mary was born of a virgin but it is taught by some that Mary was conceived without original sin, that is what the Immaculate Conception refers to.

Posted by: ThomasBaum
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Well I thought that was the Catholic dogma. And the fact of "without original sin" was synonymous to be born without the benefit of coitus. So I guess I am mistaken. But then I couldn't care less about the nuances amongst the recipes of Al Chemistry or superstitious beliefs. I am no more inclined to believe that Jesus, if one had existed, was born in any different way than you and me, than I am inclined to believe Genghis Khan was born to a virgin Mongolian princess, or for that matter that Krishna was teleported from Devaki's womb into Yasodha womb.

The problem with scripture is that they make truth claims that are patently impossible. Also are grotesque, arbitrary, capricious and foul. In 21st century our sense of ethics and morality is far superior to the ones expounded in any of the scripture, even after the latter day rationalizing commentaries. If they were a moral guidance during bronze age, my be they were. They are certainly not eternal moral guidance. Most certainly not for me. I find more moral guidance in one of John Grisham's novels, or Richard Feynam's Lectures (all 3 volumes) than in those musty tomes.

ThomasBaum,

Do you FAST? If so, why do you fast? Why did Jesus fast?
Fasting is a way to offer up to God a sacrifice. You deny yourself the desire/need for bodily satisfaction, and made that as an offering to God. Such intention is highly pleasing to God. This does not mean that "eating/food" is bad; but certainly "fasting" is more virtuous than "eating".
In the same way, those who "maintain their chastity as an offering to God" is more virtuous than those who "satisfy their human desires--even in the framework of marriage". (FYI, I am married and do not pretend to be judmental of anyone)

Regarding Mary's virginity:

Joseph is Jesus' stand-in father on earth; Jesus' real Heavenly Father is God the Father. Joseph himself accepted the mission God had given to him. He accepted Jesus as his son before the law, even though Jesus was not his real son. If Joseph did not accept Jesus as his son, Mary may have been stoned to death before the law.
In the same way, Joseph is Mary's stand-n spouse. The Holy Spirit is Mary's heavenly Spouse. Joseph accepted Mary as his wife before the law, even though they did not have conjugal relations.

Again referring to John 19:25-27, if Jesus had any brother or sister, why didn't any of them show up to be with Jesus at his dying moments? Again, Jesus did not direct Mary to go live with John, that was her decision. If she had other children, there would be no reason for her to move into John's home.

I completely agree with you that in entrusting Mary his mother to be John's mother, He is in fact entrusting Mary to be the mother of all humanity. Jesus did not do this just so we all realize "we are all Jesus' brothers and sisters"; He had refered to everyone as his brothers and sisters before, because God the Father is the Father of us all. He specifically meant for Mary His Mother to be our Mother. Which is why I consider Mary to be my Heavenly Mother; I follow Jesus' command: "Behold your mother!"

Farnaz, & Yasser comrades of convenience. You can accuse me of whatever vile things your rotten minds can think up in your lame brains. I know what I am. I need your validation like I need a hole in my head. I don't feel compelled to make gratuitous comments about topics not related to the thread. Whereas you both have made an art form of posting tomes about non-sequiter topics. Farnaz suffers from primadonna syndrome, expects adulation from the bloggers on this forum. It is not in me to provide for her needs, as I have little use for people who bloviate about the nuances of AL Chemistry and totally worthless scriptural vile texts not withstanding their source. Yasser is well established Islamic bigot, just because he holds some inane and superstitious beliefs they are worthy of rest of the world's respect for them such as MO's justification for getting into Zainab's skirts. I told him repeatedly that if he is looking for validation of his vile beliefs he need to go exclusively to islamic sites, where he will have plenty of company and adulation.

Regarding Sati, there is just one reference to it in Hindu mythology. There was no historical record that it was prevalent in pre-islamic times. It became prevalent among Rajputs and the royal families during the islamic times. Mainly because of the islamic practice of raping the females of conquered. Then of course it was also taken advantage by rich families to acquire the deceased's wealth. No matter what it deserves condemnation. Thanks to Raja Ram Manohar Roy the Bengali reformer and British it is extinct. Yasser you fool, regarding Babri Masjid I was not claiming Rama was real. But I was citing the historical record how the site was treated before that bigot Babur conquered India. As to your vituperation about treatment of Muslims in India, all I have to say is look at the demographics of India compare it with your own Dar-ul-Islam Pakistan.

Continued below

Continued

I have little use for the latter day commentaries rationalizing the vile texts. Be that be so called Yweh's purported murder of Egyptian first borns, or his special nepotism for the Hebrews, or life of the pond scums Lot or Avram. Or Allah's purported special dispensation for MO's desires or his castigation of infidels view of the world, or Mo's butchering of the entire jewish tribes for their treasures. Or Mohini's purported deception of Rakshasas, or Rama's abandoning of pregnant Sita, or Indra's seduction of Arundati, or the entire book of Manu. These texts are no better than stories of Zeus Apollo, Zeus, or Wooten. Speaking of superstition do you both think Pork consumption pisses of the sky-daddy, so the 4.7 billion are going to where ever they after death. I am supposed respect that. There isn't an ounce of good that has come out of Augustine, or Maimonides, or Al Ghazali, or Adi Sankara, compared to my heroes Newton, Cavendish, Feynman, Ramanujam, Sarabhai, Oppenheimer, Gauss, Darwin, Dawkins, Khorana, Hoodbhoy, Einstein, Pasteur.

billybob100

You wrote, " Of course conjugal relations in the framework of marriage can be blessed, but it is not on par with those who offered every aspect of their lives to God."

Mighty judgmental of you, don't you think that one can "offer every aspect of their life to God" which includes marriage?

You then wrote, "You appeared to give little credit to Mary in her acceptance of the mission God gave her. You implied that all she had to do is "say Yes"."

Not even close, as I have said before Mary not only had to freely give her YES but she had to live her YES.

You then wrote, "But that "Yes" came with a lifetime of sacrifice."

Her YES came with living her YES.

You then wrote, "How much credit do you give your mother to give birth to you, to nurture you, and to raise you."

My mother gave birth to me but it was primarily both my mother and my father who nurtured and raised me even tho there were many others along the way, the same that Mary gave birth to Jesus but it was both Mary and Joseph who nurtured and raised Jesus also others along the way.

Joseph was chosen from all of humanity to be the "foster father" of God-Incarnate, pretty awesome responsibility also, don't you think?

You also wrote, "Mary would have to endure the agony of witnessing her Son being tortured and crucified--as predicted by Simeon to Mary in the temple: "a sword will pierce your own soul""

And if you remember, after Simeon told her about the "sword", she "pondered" this in her heart, she did not know exactly what it meant and before Simeon said this, I believe, no thought of this sort occurred to Mary.

Mary's YES was an acceptance of Gabriel's message but it was not a "knowing" of what lay ahead, it was a trusting in God, "Let it be done according to Thy Will".

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

billybob100

You wrote, "Joseph was informed by an angel of God's plan for Mary. Joseph was instructed to take Mary as his wife even though he had no marital relations with her. But in the eye of the law at that time, since he and Mary were raising a son together, it would be assumed they were officially married."

At the time that the Angel came to Mary, Mary and Joseph were betrothed which at the time was legally binding and to break it a divorce was needed.

Joseph was informed by an Angel to take Mary as his wife so apparently they took the next step and got married not as you put it that since they were raising a son together it was assumed.

You then wrote, "Mary would forever be a virgin because when she said "Yes" she had accepted the Holy Spirit as her Spouse, through Whom the Divine Jesus was conceived. She would remain faithful to the Holy Spirit as any virtuous woman would be faithful to her spouse."

Wasn't Joseph her spouse, since the Angel said to take Mary as his wife, don't you think that they got married?

You then wrote, "As proof in the Bible that Mary never had any other children because she remained a virgin, see John 19:25-27. While dying on the cross, Jesus entrusted Mary to his beloved disciple (John): "He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home.""

Have you ever given any thought that it was here that Jesus was giving Mary to the entire human race as their new "Eve" and that the disciple stood in, so to speak, for the entire human race and that the entire human race became Jesus's brothers and sisters which happens to include Mary, by the way?

You then wrote, "It is obvious that if Jesus had brothers and sisters, there would be no need for Jesus to entrust his mother to his disciple and for her to move into the disciple's home. She would have lived with her other children if she had other children."

And just why is it obvious?

It is written: "My Ways are not your ways and My Thoughts are not your thoughts".

Does God have to do what to you is "obvious"?

Seems to me that Jesus did plenty of things in His Life that may have not conformed to what should have been "obvious".

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Secular

You wrote, "I am talking about Mary being born of a virgin without the benefit any kind of sexual union, likewise of course the Jesus being born the same way."

No, it is not taught by any, as far as I know, that Mary was born of a virgin but it is taught by some that Mary was conceived without original sin, that is what the Immaculate Conception refers to.

It is taught that Mary was conceived the same way most of the rest of us have been conceived.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Well thats news to me because Clearthinking has clearly denied to me he is a Hindu and on several occasions told me he is a White American who is only interested in learning about Hinduism. Of course if he is around and claims I have misquoted him, I can show him his posts where he denies being a Hindu. Akafr claims to be a Karachi Born Madrassah educate former muslim, only he cannot name even a street in Karachi let alone the name of his Madrassah or the Science book he studied there which he claims taught him the world was just a thousand years old.

continues from above.....

5. Google refutations of so called "scientific" miracles in the koran, many by ACTUAL scientists, which demolish such claims, with you know things like EVIDENCE and FACTS, not vague claims and baseless assertions.(On a related note, how come these scientific gems only become known to be in the koran, AFTER they were discovered, and discovered I might add through SCIENCE? I'd even go so far as to say Western Science, bit of a puzzle really, no muslim was smart enough to realise this scientific goldmine in their big book fairytales!).

My Response:

My! You ARE one hell of a nutcase. You have no idea of the contributions muslim scientists have made to Science, Arts, Agriculture and basically every aspect of your life? It was the study of Quran that made muslims scientists leap thousands of miles ahead of their contemporaries in Europe, China and whatever there was of the known world. I am not here to educate juveniles about hundreds of years of solitary domination of Muslim scientists and their numerous history altering discoveries. You could visit you local library for that purpose or type muslims scientists on Wikipedia. Here's a challenge I throw to you and all the authors of those websites you cite, find me one statement from Quran that you can prove to be false!

6. You'd be surprised at what I know of the koran, more than enough to know that it's a vile, misogynistic, barbaric, backward, lazy, intolerant, inaccurate waste of paper.

My Response:

AAH! Well try me! What is your claim to expertise on Islam. A college Degree? A critically acclaimed dissertation authored by you I can refer to?? Any other form of research?? I am all ears, because Mr Pizza Delivery Boy every Tom Dick and Harry these days who has access to discredited sites liek Jihadwatch.com and news sources like Fox News claims he is an expert on Islam. You increasingly sound like of those no nothings to me. So......lets hear where you gained your expertise of islam

There was a horrible case of Satti here in New York a few years ago. A young girl's husband was killed in an accident and her family feared she would immolate herself. They watched her carefully, but she managed to do it.

Babri, the Golden Temple, Gujurat--these were horrible incidents. Again and again, we see violence in the name of religion.

I'm not that familiar with Akafir's postings, but ClearThinking has said that he is Hindu. While I don't agree with everything he puts forth, I generally find him lucid and articulate.

Secular, on the other hand, continually attacks other religions, defends his own, and claims he's not. When others finally grow exasperated and respond in kind, he becomes a victim.

It's wearying and disruptive.

STUBLORE writes

1. In the middle, the moderate, you have people who accept that islam like all ideas, needs to change and adapt to the times.

My Response:

Where on earth did you come up with that definition of a Moderate Muslim?? I never read it in any books by an expert on Islam. If you made it up yourself then it has no credibility since you are yet to prove yourself as an authority before giving these absolutist definitions of various forms of muslims. Btw......I am getting the feeling you're one of those westerners who believe Irshad Manji's and Asra Nomani's are models muslims should follow. If that's the case I know all I need to know about you.

2. Let's stop right there!
They were not written by the same author.
The bible and the koran had many authors, but were eventually pared down to what was at the time of their aggregation, considered most relevant/authentic.
You seriously did not know this?, and you accuse me of ignorance.Once again you have demonstrated my point for me!

My Response:

Both Torah (Book of Moses) and Injil (Gospel of Jesus) came from a single author originally. That Author is Allah, YHWH, God whichever name you may call him. This fact isn't even disputed. The Islamic point of view is that over time there have been additions made to both religous texts by their followers and hence the original word of God has lost its meaning somewhat.

3. No this is claimed, asserted by parroting muslims as fact, when in fact, there is absolutely no evidence to back up said assertion.

My Response:

So are you actually denying Universally accepted basic fact that Prophet Muhammad indeed could neither read nor write? That does say a lot about you. Do you have an actual proof to back your claims? As in an author of repute to cite in this regard.

4. Wrong again, it's meandering, sleep inducing tripe, and if one was forced to listen to it for any length of time, it would be considered psychological torture.

My Response:

Again those are your views and for all I know of your knowledge of Islam, it has gutter credibility for me. For more than a billion people world wide they are the most beautiful words ever produced. Oh by the way, are you familiar with Arabic Language?? I am hoping for your sake that the answer is not in negative because you will end up looking like a real buffoon making such authoritative statements about a text you dont even understand.

(More to follow)

Perhaps you should go back to school and get some basic education in things like Science,Logic,Reason and asking questions for yourself, rather than simply blindly accepting what you are told.

"
What is your source on information on Quran btw......?? Your local Radio Station?"
You'd be surprised at what I know of the koran, more than enough to know that it's a vile, misogynistic, barbaric, backward, lazy, intolerant, inaccurate waste of paper.

If Secular is not a Hindhu, he most certainly is a confused man because I remember him defending the the vilest of all Hindu practices called Satti, with the most wildest of all accusations that it was in response to Muslim invaders. Even though I tried to educate him that the practice of Satti predates the Muslim invaders by atleast a 1000 years, like typical stubborn Idiot he didn't budge.

On this blog he accepts that the Mythical figures of Rama, Krishna, Sita etc never existed yet a few days ago he was lauding the Indian Courts for rewarding Hindus who claimed Babri Mosque was built where there Lord Rama was born, 2/3 of the Babri Mosque. The 2000 muslims butchered in streets all over India are still awaiting justice after 20 years.

However, his mannerisms aren't different from at least 2 other regular Hindu Commentators (Akafir & Clearthinking) who are too ashamed of their Hindu religion and therefore hide their true identities and have been exposed by me several times. So I can only conclude that Secular's claims of being an Atheist is just a canard to give him leverage to insult other religions while saving his own Hindhu beliefs.

YASSERYOUSUFI
"
I do not know what a moderate muslim is. "
You don't?
Here's a tough guide, at one end you have the frothing at the mouth, person who literally beleives everything in islamic theology, without question and cannot fathom why those 7th century ideals don't work in the modern era, and wants all the world to submit to islam, willing or not.

At the other end you have a person who pretty much ignores everything in islam, but for reasons of family etc, calls themselves muslim, but cannot be bothered with anything islamic.

In the middle, the moderate, you have people who accept that islam like all ideas, needs to change and adapt to the times.

So which are you?

You continue to be an embarrassment with your uneducated missives. The Quran, Torah and Injeel all come from the same author "

Let's stop right there!
They were not written by the same author.
The bible and the koran had many authors, but were eventually pared down to what was at the time of their aggregation, considered most relevant/authentic.
You seriously did not know this?, and you accuse me of ignorance.Once again you have demonstrated my point for me!

" However, it is well established that Prophet Muhammad could neither read nor write."
No this is claimed, asserted by parroting muslims as fact, when in fact, there is absolutely no evidence to back up said assertion.

" The Quran, all of it, is in poetic form of the highest order. "
Wrong again, it's meandering, sleep inducing tripe, and if one was forced to listen to it for any length of time, it would be considered psychological torture.

"
It reinforces the message brought by previous messengers and prophets of Allah but their is a lot of original material in it as well. "
No, it plaigiarises the success of 2 former well entrenched fairytales, and then incorporates local fairytales.

"
Just google scientific facts in the Quran and educate yourself with the information Quran gave 1500 years ago that the humanity is coming to grips with just now. "

Google refutations of so called "scientific" miracles in the koran, many by ACTUAL scientists, which demolish such claims, with you know things like EVIDENCE and FACTS, not vague claims and baseless assertions.(On a related note, how come these scientific gems only become known to be in the koran, AFTER they were discovered, and discovered I might add through SCIENCE? I'd even go so far as to say Western Science, bit of a puzzle really, no muslim was smart enough to realise this scientific goldmine in their big book fairytales!).

"
Its written in the Quran that if any non-believer believes Quran is written by Humans and does not comes from God, then produce one single ayah (line) like Quran."
Why the hell would anyone want to produce something like the koran, and even if they did, something you cannot conceive of apparently, is that even if they did, it would have NO bearing on the claim of the koran to be the word of god!!

Contrary to his protestations, Mr. Secular is a polytheist of the Hindu persuasion. Whenever anyone takes issue with the vile, incest promoting, sadistic "scriptures" of said Hindu, up goes his bigoted, racist head, to shriek and defend. One witnesses similar phenomena when India's three hundred million enslaved, trafficked, and murdered Dalit are under discussion.

Apartheid India's bride-burning, female feticide, forced impoverishment of the masses for the benefit of the rich and powerful is also a topic that makes Secular whine and groan and shriek. (He is a victim.) Victim, racist Secular claims that he held a position in the government of India, not an unimportant one either.

It is conceivable that it was then that he learned under the tutelage of India's ninety-five (95) separate Parliament-controlling mafias to develop his innate talents as a bully, racist thug. These his government has perfected in India, Bangaldesh, and, of course, India-genocided Kashmir. Indian academics regularly assert that Indian Muslims are treated like Indian Dalit.

The screaming, whining Honorable Secular is an antisemitic, anti-Jewish racist thug. Whatever minimal intelligence he may have had at birth was, no doubt, thoroughly destroyed through excessive consumption of Cow Pee and Cow Feces.

I do not like insulting the beliefs of others or nations to which they might feel an affinity.

Moreover, when Secular began posting his out-of-context illiterate references to Tanakh, I tried to explain them to him and even recommended near universally accepted sources. Secular made it plain that he was not interested. His interest, he claimed, atheism. Frankly, I could not see any connection between illiterate posts on Tanakh and atheism, but, at all events, I asked why he did not, instead, deal with Hindu texts, assuming (mistakenly, I now see) that he was, at least,literate in these writings.

The Honorable Secular replied that he would do so if he were in India, but since the US is a Christian Country, he, instead, is attacking Tanakh. HUH?

Although the illogic here is obvious, I do want to assure bloggers that at the point at which the Honorable Secular made that insane statement, I knew the level of brain with which I was dealing. Therefore, I explained in words of one syllable that if he wished to discredit Christian scriptures, he would do well to refer to them. I directed him to the NT, which has more than enough to keep a troll like Secular busy for years.

Secular declined and continued vilifying Tanakh, making community with the most disgusting racists, among whom he has shown himself to figure.

On preceding thread, he befriended a blogger who has been identified as a card-carrying member of StormFront, Nazis (literally).

In sum, his posts have invariably been moronic, racist, and hysterical. It is to their unflagging idiocy that other bloggers take exception.

ThomasBaum,

Regarding Pascal's Wager, it is but a reason to have faith, but it is not faith in itself. Even Pascal, the renowned mathematician and physicist, acknowledged that acceptance of the wager is not by itself sufficient for salvation. Of course faith must be accompanied by deeds. Even those who claimed to "be reborned" in Christ and to accept Christ as his Savior, yet continued to steal and cheat cannot expect to gain salvation.

Regarding whether virginity is a virtue--of course it is a highly regarded virtue. This is true in any culture. Of course conjugal relations in the framework of marriage can be blessed, but it is not on par with those who offered every aspect of their lives to God.

You appeared to give little credit to Mary in her acceptance of the mission God gave her. You implied that all she had to do is "say Yes". But that "Yes" came with a lifetime of sacrifice. How much credit do you give your mother to give birth to you, to nurture you, and to raise you. Mary would have to endure the agony of witnessing her Son being tortured and crucified--as predicted by Simeon to Mary in the temple: "a sword will pierce your own soul" (Luke 2:33-35)

JOE_ALLEN_DOTY,

Joseph was informed by an angel of God's plan for Mary. Joseph was instructed to take Mary as his wife even though he had no marital relations with her. But in the eye of the law at that time, since he and Mary were raising a son together, it would be assumed they were officially married.

Mary would forever be a virgin because when she said "Yes" she had accepted the Holy Spirit as her Spouse, through Whom the Divine Jesus was conceived. She would remain faithful to the Holy Spirit as any virtuous woman would be faithful to her spouse.

As proof in the Bible that Mary never had any other children because she remained a virgin, see John 19:25-27. While dying on the cross, Jesus entrusted Mary to his beloved disciple (John): "He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home."
It is obvious that if Jesus had brothers and sisters, there would be no need for Jesus to entrust his mother to his disciple and for her to move into the disciple's home. She would have lived with her other children if she had other children.

The blogger Secular has long posted antisemitic (and anti-Judaic) as well as anti-Islamic comments and made community with the worst racists blogging here.Posted by: FarnazMansouri2

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Ms. Farnaz not that I care much about your opinion of me. I have gone through my life coming across folks like you who take my critiques of scripture as something personal. I an atheist, am not one to oblige the theists their arrogance that their religious beliefs deserve respect. Far too long atheists had to shoulder this burden, it is against the advise of many a kith & kin, including my SO that I have decided not to pull any punches.

Now coming to you. Contrary to your protestations of being an atheist you are theist of Jewish persuasion. You are unwilling to see that these scriptures are pure fiction, if there are any fragments of truth in them it is only incidental or accidental. The fact is you believe the pure fiction as real truth. You rationalize all the vile passages in OT, as some kind of eternal moral guidance. When I critique the character of Avram, or Musa you take it personally and you go of accusing me an anti-semite, anti-judaic, etc, etc. First of all I have no reason to be an anti-semite. I have been raised in a Hindu family, there is nothing in Hindu culture that smacks of any anti-semitism. In fact 99.9% of Hindus have not even been aware of Judaism until WWII. Even today I would venture to say over 85% of Hindus in India would not know anything of Judaism. So for anyone raised in Hindu family to be anti-semetic is silly. A case can be made a priori of me being anti-islami or even anti-xtian, given Indian history. Besides I am not anti any one of any religious persuasion, but I am definitely anti every religious teachings. Because all of them make truth claims that are totally untenable. You are the same as lots of Hindus on this blog who have accused me of self-loathing or been gullible to fall in x'tian traps, when I have criticized Ramayana, Bhagavatham, Manu Smrithi. Just like them you cannot take critique of OT. I do not criticize any one for their religious affiliation. There is a difference between critiquing a religious belief and hating someone for their religious affiliation. IT seems to me for a professor, this seems to be lost on you. If you feel my criticism is wrong of buttress your arguments not call me an anti-semite. That is easy buttressing your position is not so easy. Your claim that sacrifice of Isaac was god banning human sacrifice is specious. You claim some commentary by some johnny come lately shows that is silly. What is this johnny come lately is privy to that I am not privy to sustain his commentary. Likewise why was Yweh only interested in freeing Hebrews and not others from egyptian gallows. Leave only the massive killings of Egyptian first borns enmasse.

Let me tell you I couldn't care what you think of me.

Muslims like Azisk do not help the cause, Ebbo. Three million Jews are living in exile from their ME homelands due to Islamic intolerance.

Only recently, a Muslim in Yemen murdered a thirty-one year old man screaming "Convert or die" at him in the street. The man, thirty--one years old left a wife and nine children.

The Jewish community in Yemen went back 5,000 years. It is innocent even by Islamic standards. Those who a few months ago were harrassed by Muslim maniacs while the world stood by in silence had never been on a plane, did not know what prostitutes were, or that people use drugs to get high.

They had to be air lifted out of Yemen hell hole or they all would have been killed.
-------------------------
Using Mary and Jesus to convert Christians has not gone over well in Brooklyn where it was tried in two black neighborhoods, both very Christian. The two Saudi Islamic Centers that sponsored the campaigns shut down and headed for the hills as did a mosq that had been in one of these neighborhoods for years.

Further, as everyone knows, more is written in the Quoran about MOses than about any other prophet including Mohammed.

Sucking up to Christians or trying to convert them while murdering them in churches and elsewhere is never a good idea, Azisk, notwithstanding.

"Looks like the touchy feely "Secular" gets incensed when he is subjected to only a slight portion of his own medicine. Its usually the case with most bullies, they are often the biggest crybabies.

By the way, what does "a court clerk from Sindh in Pakistan" means?? Do you have any idea about my occupation? Was I supposed to get offended by that? Other than that you are all over the place as usual. Hardly making a point. Unlike you, I don't really enjoy making fun of other people's religious beliefs. But I believe the nuts of your ilk only dont really get it in their fat brains until they are provided with some shock treatment. So if you do not want to be responded in kind in the future, try showing some respect to other peoples beliefs even though you may not agree with it."
--------------------------------
The blogger Secular has long posted antisemitic (and anti-Judaic) as well as anti-Islamic comments and made community with the worst racists blogging here.

He is notorious for his ad hominem attacks which he complains of while in the process of making them.

This blogger "secular" whines and shrieks defending Hinduism, calling himself a victim, because others will not tolerate his bigotry.

Pitiful though it is, he held, by his own account, an important political post in India.

I have little doubt that his brains have been fried from drinking "Cow Pee" whether as Gau Jal or in some other form or from eating Cow Feces (not kidding--it's done).

I too do not like making fun of other people's religious practices or texts or nations they may have an interest in

If secular doesn't want to hear it he is advised for the 1,000th time to keep his trap shut about those of other people.

Ebo,
Let me bring to your attention that a book titled "Mary in the Quran" was authored by a Lebanese lady Dr.Hosen Aboud and presented in fulfillemnt of a PhD at the University of Torento in May,2006.

I read the book in Arabic. It is the first book to deal with such topic which so is close to the hearts of Muslims-and indeed a facinating book-and realtes the story of Mary in the context of both the Quran and the Gospels.

Incidentally only the Quran deals in Chapter 3/Surat Ale Imran with the very blessed childhood of Mary which is totally absent from the four Gospels.

The book is a must-read for Christains to see the exalted place Mary holds in the Quran-above all the women of the world.

Ebo,
Let me bring to your attention that a book titled "Mary in the Quran" was authored by a Lebanese lady Dr.Hosen Aboud and presented in fulfillemnt of a PhD at the University of Torento in May,2006.

I read the book in Arabic. It is the first book to deal with such topic which so is close to the hearts of Muslims-and indeed a facinating book-and realtes the story of Mary in the context of both the Quran and the Gospels.

Incidentally only the Quran deals in Chapter 3/Surat Ale Imran with the very blessed childhood of Mary which is totally absent from the four Gospels.

The book is a must-read for Christains to see the exalted place Mary holds in the Quran-above all the women of the world.

Ebo,
Let me bring to your attention that a book titled "Mary in the Quran" was authored by a Lebanese lady Dr.Hosen Aboud and presented in fulfillemnt of a PhD at the University of Torento in May,2006.

I read the book in Arabic. It is the first book to deal with such topic which so is close to the hearts of Muslims-and indeed a facinating book-and realtes the story of Mary in the context of both the Quran and the Gospels.

Incidentally only the Quran deals in Chapter 3/Surat Ale Imran with the very blessed childhood of Mary which is totally absent from the four Gospels.

The book is a must-read for Christains to see the exalted place Mary holds in the Quran-above all the women of the world.

You wrote, "Parthenogenesis, has never been observed among higher order species such as birds or mammals. But now we are to believe that it had happened at least twice."

Where did you ever get the idea that it happened twice?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

I am talking about Mary being born of a virgin without the benefit any kind of sexual union, likewise of course the Jesus being born the same way.

rentianxiang,
With all due respect u are a fraud and a lair: the Muslim world is weak,fragmented,oppressed,occupied or colonized -essentially from within by desposts protected and nurtured by the west or from without by the west itself or its proxies:Jews in Palestine,Serbs in Bosnia,Indians in KAshmir,Americans in Iraq an dAfghanistan.

So why don't u stop repeating your lies and stereotypes?

There are extremely important differences in how Muslims understand the Virgin Mary, which are based on how they see women in general:

http://catholicexchange.com/2010/11/03/140516/

Looks like the touchy feely "Secular" gets incensed when he is subjected to only a slight portion of his own medicine. Its usually the case with most bullies, they are often the biggest crybabies.

By the way, what does "a court clerk from Sindh in Pakistan" means?? Do you have any idea about my occupation? Was I supposed to get offended by that? Other than that you are all over the place as usual. Hardly making a point. Unlike you, I don't really enjoy making fun of other people's religious beliefs. But I believe the nuts of your ilk only dont really get it in their fat brains until they are provided with some shock treatment. So if you do not want to be responded in kind in the future, try showing some respect to other peoples beliefs even though you may not agree with it.

Posted by: yasseryousufi

*******************************************

Yasser, the ad hominem about me drinking urine is not an an attack on my beliefs. I am not given to any superstitious beliefs (full stop). Unless there is a reasonable evidence supporting the beliefs, I do not pay any attention to it. Unlike most people I do not buy into the belief that sticking metal in Microwaves is leads to catastrophe. I in fact leave the metal mixing spoons right in the dish when I stick it in the microwave, it has not hurt anything for past 25 years. I do not regard giving respect to peoples fond beliefs is scientific or necessarily decorous. You wish to attack my beliefs that you know off be my guest.

Regarding the "clerk", I recall you claimed something to the effect, in an earlier post. I was commenting about your opportunistic comrade in arms that ignorant know it all professor's ignorance of Ramayana. Most of my post correcting her fertile imaginations. And even pointed out the critical flaw of that mythical character Rama - his abandoning his beloved wife when she was carrying his children presumably because a drunken washer-man yaps something derogatory. This was much akin to your fond prophet Ibrahim, casting Haggar & Ishmael or is it Ismael away. But then you guys think that was nothing wrong. That makes sense that you do not find that despicable of Rama, either. At least I will grant you that you are not being a hypocrite in this context.

Secular

You wrote, "Parthenogenesis, has never been observed among higher order species such as birds or mammals. But now we are to believe that it had happened at least twice."

Where did you ever get the idea that it happened twice?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

billybob100

You wrote, "Consider Pascal's Wager for those who want to rely on "reason". IF you believe in God and He exists, then you have all eternity to gain when you die. IF you are wrong, nothing changed and nothing matters. IF you do not believe in God, and you are right; nothing changed when you die. BUT if you are wrong, you will have an eternity of REGRET. Then, it is BETTER TO BELIEVE."

Doesn't it say somewhere, "Lord, Lord...",then "I do not know you...".

Seems as if the "Lord, Lord" ones believed, doesn't it?

Therefore it seems as if "Pascal's Wager" doesn't add up to a bucket of snot.

Since God has a Plan and God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof, having a phoney baloney belief just might be worse than being honest about one's belief in God or non-belief in God, don't you think?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

billybob100

You wrote, "Her SPOUSE is the HOLY SPIRIT. It is through the Holy Spirit that Jesus was conceived in her womb (Luke 1:35). For this reason, she would never have conjugal relations with any man, including Joseph her earthly husband."

You don't know this, you may believe this, but you don't know this.

What if God wanted Mary and Joseph to have a "complete" marriage after this extraordinary event?

What if God wanted God-Incarnate to have brothers and sisters rather than to be an only child?

I don't "know" one way or the other but I believe that the "brothers and sisters" of Jesus were Joseph and Mary's children.

You also wrote, "Being a virgin and remaining a virgin is a virtue--particularly in anyone who have given and offered everything up to God--Just as Mary had done"

What Mary "offered up to God" was her consent, her YES, to what the Angel said to her, "Let it be done unto me, according to Thy Will".

You then wrote, "Her Son, Jesus, is the Word of God incarnate, who is Himself God and Divine. He would protect and keep his Mother pure and virtuous for all eternity."

I believe that Jesus is God-Incarnate and I know that the Catholic Eucharist is Jesus but don't you think that conjugal relations can be "pure and virtuous"?

You then wrote, "God The Father is her heavenly Father. He would want the Mother of His Son Jesus to be completely pure and virtuous."

Do you think that Mary having conjugal relations with her husband would make her not "pure and virtuous"?

God the Father is also our Father, didn't Jesus teach His Apostles and us to pray, "Our Father...".

You then wrote, "For that very reason, He kept Mary from ever being stained with Original Sin--thus we celebrate The Feast of the Immaculate Conception; which means that God had planned for Mary to be the Mother of the Divine Jesus, therefore He protected her from Original Sin from the moment of her conception in her mother's womb."

God did plan for Mary to be the mother of God-Incarnate since before creation but Mary still had to freely give her consent.

You then wrote, "Mary's Immaculate Conception is absolutely necessary, because if she did have Original Sin, then it can be argued that Jesus would also inherit Original Sin."

Could be, but one of the reasons that I believe in the Immaculate Conception is that since God is a Consuming Fire of Pure Love that God could not put Pure Love into a tainted container, so to speak.

Even tho Jesus never sinned, He did take upon Himself ALL of the sins of ALL of humanity and therefore, He can, so to speak, now enter tainted containers.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Looks like the touchy feely "Secular" gets incensed when he is subjected to only a slight portion of his own medicine. Its usually the case with most bullies, they are often the biggest crybabies.

By the way, what does "a court clerk from Sindh in Pakistan" means?? Do you have any idea about my occupation? Was I supposed to get offended by that? Other than that you are all over the place as usual. Hardly making a point. Unlike you, I don't really enjoy making fun of other people's religious beliefs. But I believe the nuts of your ilk only dont really get it in their fat brains until they are provided with some shock treatment. So if you do not want to be responded in kind in the future, try showing some respect to other peoples beliefs even though you may not agree with it.

Do you happen to be a Roman Catholic church member with no formal theological education, billybob100?

You apparently are just using what the RCC claims. The real church of Christ Jesus existed for several centuries before the RCC decided to add the doctrine of Mary as a virgin.

After Mary gave birth to Jesus, no Gospel writer even used "virgin" in the context with her name.

According to Jewish law, if a woman decided to remain a virgin after she moved in with a man to be his wife, he had legal cause to divorce her.

A man and a woman could not legally be husband and wife in Bible times if they had not had sex with each other. It was the sex act that made them married.

billybob100

You write as if a person can decide what to believe.

Can you make yourself believe that you have ten million dollars in the bank? That should make you feel real good, I'm sure. Can you make yourself believe that if you kill an atheist - god will love you for all eternity? Some folks can do that, I'm thinking of 9/11.

If I could persuade myself that after death I will enter another world, where beautiful women are mine for the taking - then I would happily believe it. But let's be honest. Such a belief is absurd and is clearly wishful thinking. When I try to persuade myself such a thing is real - I get nowhere. My brain kicks in and I shake my head at such nonsense. It is an insult to my brain; an insult to common sense itself.

The only way I could believe such irrational ideas is if I'd been indoctrinated into religion by religious parents, in a religious culture - as a child; where I would have no choice but to believe it with total conviction.

But I was lucky. My folks weren't particularly religious. So I grew up curious and free, free to think for myself. God and Satan et cetra, are for the indoctrinated only.

I have come across many Hindus in my life, but never ever have I heard such a rabid hate spewer as Secular. I too wouldn't be surprised if he's intoxicated by his cow pee cola (it actually exists in India!) while posting those odious, moronic posts.Posted by: yasseryousufi

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I am sure you have come across boatloads of them in the sindhi sharia court of yours. Most likely they had all been brought there on trumped up blasphemy charges. That probably was enough to cower them down into submission, in a futile attempt to be spared of whatever fate that is to befell them. Just like some of your yellow bellied forefathers of your who could not face the muslim conquerors and converted to islam to save their skins. I am sure they died a thousand times each day they lived after that. Their progenies do not have the benefit of that knowledge, because preserving such information negates the reason for conversion, that is keep themselves physically alive.

In one of your posts in an earlier thread, you proudly claimed the most of the blasphemers that are charged are muslims. Probably true, as it is over 98% muslims compared to cowered down minorities. I bet those muslims are free thinkers like me. So it only stands to reason that despotic and barbarous government would charge them for them exercising the free will.

Yasser challenge us thus:
“Its written in the Quran that if any non-believer believes Quran is written by Humans and does not comes from God, then produce one single ayah (line) like Quran.”

Below is a set of verses that are written by the atheist son of a Palestinian Muslim cleric that are more eloquent and make a much better sense than anything I had read in the Quran.
الله ايه العقل الرصين ۞ أحفظنا من الاسلام والمسلمين۞فبعيدا عنهم نكون امنيين ۞ فهم ما الا ارهابيين۞ يتبعون محمد والمساطيل۞ في الكنائس يقتلوا المسيحيين۞ ويقولوا في سبيل الله مجاهدين۞ هل اله الاسلام من المجانين۞ ... لانه يقول علي الابرياء كافريين۞ام هم حقا مساطيل۞ لقد احت ار معكم حتى الشياطين۞فما انتم الاثلة من المُخربين۞

The ad hominem throwers are out in full force here. I have stated several times on these columns that I am not a Hindu. In fact my distaste for religion is universal. I find all scripture by and large grotesque and vile. Some may be worse than others in some aspects, but none is far from being any kind of moral guidance. When I point out the vileness in Koran or the so called tanakh, the poisoned daggers come out from a self proclaimed professor what I don't know, and a court clerk from Sindh in Pakistan. These two never address the issue I raise, instead throw epithets at me such as "urine drinking hindhu" or "genocider", "dalit slaving", so and so forth. The vituperations unceasing and beneath decency.

The professors scholarship in Hinduism is from nickel & dime rags. First of all scripture is fiction, including Hindu scripture. So get it through your thick skulls there was never a real persons or god incarnates called Rama, or Krishna, or Shiva, Vishnu, or Brhama. There is no Ksheer Sagar (Ocean of milk) where Visnu is resting on the coiled Sesha serpent. These Hindhu characters are no more real than Yweh, Allah, Dal Qurnayn, Avram, Satan, Zeus, Tor, Wooten. Coming to our know it all bullying professor, her knowledge of things like OT may be beyond me to comment, other than that its of as much economic value as appreciating the nuances of recipes from Alchemistry. A news flash for this "professor of know nothing of value", Hinduism predates Buddhism. So her contention that some Buddhist Ramayana predates Hindu Ramayana is height of ignorance paraded as some kind of scholarship. The fiction that is Ramayana, narrates that Rama won a tournament to win Sita's hand in marriage from foster father. She talks as though this is all some kind of fact. Then according to her we are supposed to believe that Sita was indeed buried in the soil in box when King Janaka found her under the plough. If she wants to condemn Rama instead of making up crap, there is his treatment of Sita after he brings her back from Lanka, which is the most grotesque, akin with Avram's treatment of Haggar. But then she is of the view Avram is great moral teacher, what can I say. Likewise the about Krishna is accused of oppressing the lower castes, but then Krishna himself was born into those catses and is also a dark person, in fact pitch black.

No coming to that clerk from the sharia courts of Pakistan, he talks of Musharaff as the head of state. Who was nothing but a usurper, architect of Kargil humiliation of Pakistan,who did not even know that Gandhi was assassinated. So some bigots did purify the grave, so what? I have no hesitation to condemn the bigots in whichever stripes they come in. I cannot say the same of these two. The clerk and professor do not counter the facts I lay out instead the call me names. And they write tomes of commentary about the nuances of the stupid vile musty texts of stone age. This whole forum has had enough of them.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/02/11/india-cow-urine-soft-drin_n_165960.html

http://www.paklinks.com/gs/pakistan-affairs/22258-gandhi-shrine-to-be-washed-with-cow-urine-after-mushrrafs-visit.html

I have come across many Hindus in my life, but never ever have I heard such a rabid hate spewer as Secular. I too wouldn't be surprised if he's intoxicated by his cow pee cola (it actually exists in India!) while posting those odious, moronic posts.

I actually remember reading an incident in a newspaper that reveals the idiosyncrasies of Hindus of Secular's ilk. When Parvez Musharraf visited India while he was the head of state, as a show of respect he went to pay homage to Gandhi at his Samadhi. After he left fundamentalist Hindus of Shiv Sena said the holy site has been made filthy by Musharraf's visit so they performed a ritual cleaning by cleaning it with the Holy Water of Cow's Urine! Such is the non sense religion of Monkey and Snake Gods of the people who make fun of others.

STUBLORE,

I do not know what a moderate muslim is. You continue to be an embarrassment with your uneducated missives. The Quran, Torah and Injeel all come from the same author and is addressed to the same audience so most certainly they sound similar. However, it is well established that Prophet Muhammad could neither read nor write. The Quran, all of it, is in poetic form of the highest order. It reinforces the message brought by previous messengers and prophets of Allah but their is a lot of original material in it as well. Just google scientific facts in the Quran and educate yourself with the information Quran gave 1500 years ago that the humanity is coming to grips with just now. Its written in the Quran that if any non-believer believes Quran is written by Humans and does not comes from God, then produce one single ayah (line) like Quran.

What is your source on information on Quran btw......?? Your local Radio Station?

Eboo,

I would suggest you take these postings into account, that is, with the exception of the Muslim-hating Judeo-phobic hindu, Secular.

You might think his psychoses is due to an excess of cow urine drinking as prescribed by his religion as practiced throughout the Hindu world. Just as our politicians try to compete with one another on how Christian they are, theirs are in a urine drinking competition. Who consumes more per day? Sources available upon request.

But let us ask of this hindu who reviles Abraham, Islam, Judaism, and Jews, let us ask of this female-feticiding, bride-burning, gay-murdering, slaver of Dalit, if the problem may might be two-fold, emanating,perhaps, from excessive cow urine ingestion and his own sacred texts before we jump to any conclusions about said Secular, shall we?

Much has been written about the sub-human treatment of women in Hinduism, and how the `sacred' scriptures sanction the most barbarian treatment of women ever known. Another justification given for the suppression of women in Hinduism is the harsh treatment meted out to them by the `great' gods of this `fabulous' faith.

Continued below

Continues:

7.1 RAMA'S RUTHLESS PERSECUTION OF WOMEN
Rama treated women with all the severity of the Vedas. As per standard versions of the Ramayana, Rama was 16 years old when she married Sita, and Sita was only 14 years old [ Ram.wh 69 ]. However, these are later, forged versions where the Brahmins have deliberately deleted incriminating passages proving that Rama married Sita when she was 6 years old. As per the oldest extant versions of the Ramayana, namely the Buddhist Ramayana, the marriage was performed as per Manu-Smrti, and Sita was only 6 years old when the lecherous bastard Rama raped her. Marrying a 6 year old baby clearly shows that Ram was not only a rapist and scoundrel to boot but also a child molester.
" These items were deleted by the Vaishnava Brahmans in yet another attempt to perpetrate historical fraud. However, the truth has finally been dug out since the Buddhist Ramayana is older than the extant Vaishnava versions, and preserve the facts which were later suppressed by the Aryan Vaishnava fundamentalists. Rama's dirty laundry has been exposed for all to see. So Rama was, besides being guilty of the mass murder of Sudra Blacks, introducing apartheid and supporting fascism, guilty of incest and child-marriage. "
-- [ Babu ]

Many of the real-life passages of Rama's life are also preserved in the Ravayana, an oral history of the Dalits. This version also accredits Rama with killing his own father. This epitome of a god was nothing but a coward who cut off womens' noses and murdered his enemies by striking from the back. After he brutally murdered Ravana this traitor burnt the city of Lanka, killing all the thousands of innocent women and children in it. These are only a few of the sadistic crimes against humanity committed by this butcher.
7.2 KRISHNA'S WONDROUS TREATMENT OF WOMEN
The main reasons for forming the insidious religion of Brahmanic Hinduism was so that the white male Aryan followers of this religion could satisfy their desires with their own as well as the enslaved black Sudra women. Later the lecherous Brahmin men transformed Vedism into Vaishnavism (which represents 75 % of all `Hindus') and abrogated to themselves the right to sexual enjouyment of all races, while other men were forbidden access to Brahmin women.
One of the main examples of this wonderful treatment of aboriginal women is the `great' God Krishna himself. He raped the Black Sudra women, namely the low-caste cowherdesses or gopis on a massive scale. These ghastly deeds were later distorted into a benign love story by the fraud Brahmins in order to whitewash Krishna's crimes.

BillyBob100 writes: "Then, it is BETTER TO BELIEVE."

Believe what?

Where is the graveyard of dead gods? What lingering mourner waters their mounds? There was a time when Jupiter was the king of the gods, and any man who doubted his puissance was ipso facto a barbarian and an ignoramus. But where in all the world is there a man who worships Jupiter today? And who of Huitzilopochtli? In one year - and it is no more than five hundred years ago - 50,000 youths and maidens were slain in sacrifice to him. Today, if he is remembered at all, it is only by some vagrant savage in the depths of the Mexican forest. Huitzilopochtli, like many other gods, had no human father; his mother was a virtuous widow; he was born of an
apparently innocent flirtation that she carried out with the sun. When he frowned, his father, the sun, stood still. When he roared with rage, earthquakes engulfed whole cities. When he thirsted he was watered with 10,000 gallons of human blood. But today Huitzilopochtli is as magnificently forgotten as Allen G. Thurman. Once the peer of Allah, Buddha and Wotan, he is now the peer of Richmond P. Hobson, Alton B. Parker,
Adelina Patti, General Weyler and Tom Sharkey.

Speaking of Huitzilopochtli recalls his brother Tezcatilpoca.
Tezcatilpoca was almost as powerful; he consumed 25,000 virgins a year.
Lead me to his tomb: I would weep, and hang a couronne des perles. But who
knows where it is? Or where the grave of Quetzalcoatl is? Or Xiehtecuthli?
Or Centeotl, that sweet one? Or Tlazolteotl, the goddess of love? Of
Mictlan? Or Xipe? Or all the host of Tzitzimitles? Where are their bones?
Where is the willow on which they hung their harps? In what forlorn and
unheard-of Hell do they await their resurrection morn? Who enjoys their
residuary estates? Or that of Dis, whom Caesar found to be the chief god of
the Celts? Of that of Tarves, the bull? Or that of Moccos, the pig? Or that
of Epona, the mare? Or that of Mullo, the celestial jackass? There was a
time when the Irish revered all these gods, but today even the drunkest
Irishman laughs at them.
*********************************
Read the rest for yourself:
http://nowscape.com/atheism/dead_gods.htm

So tell me which God's commands to obey so I make sure that I don't lose Pascal's wager.

Apparently, there are several levels of discussions. There are Muslims and non-Muslims, there are Protestants and Catholic beliefs, and there are believers and atheists. For some atheist, if anything that is beyond your understanding or "reason" you would consider "malarkey". But let me ask all those who are atheist--Do you believe (or find reasonable) time travel, alternate universes, "the universe came from nothing" as Stephen Hawking suggested--then you are someone who not just "don't believe in God", but someone who will believe in anything (but God).
Hawking's writings and theories are quite interesting, but his work actually reinforce that there "not only must be a god", but there must be ONE all-powerful GOD. Hawking deduct that the universe was created under one basic LAW: the Law of Gravity. IF that is the case, then WHO established this universal law that encompass the infinite universe? Then that BEING has power over not just a planet (Earth), or over a solar system or galaxy, but over the entire infinite universe. But how powerful can this BEING be? Let's say this Being created another universe under another universal law such as the "Law of Anti-Gravity", or "Law of ElectroMagnetism", etc. Then this being has power over all that "EXIST".
Consider Pascal's Wager for those who want to rely on "reason". IF you believe in God and He exists, then you have all eternity to gain when you die. IF you are wrong, nothing changed and nothing matters. IF you do not believe in God, and you are right; nothing changed when you die. BUT if you are wrong, you will have an eternity of REGRET. Then, it is BETTER TO BELIEVE.

Eboo,

You should talk to the Muslims in Saudi Arabia and Malaysia and tell them your brand of Islam. The Kafirs here and other places really would love to be left alone by your and their Islam. Here are just two pieces of news from your Islamic world.

****************************
http://translating-jihad.blogspot.com/2010/12/saudi-shaykh-issues-fatwa-supporting.html

Saudi Shaykh Issues Fatwa Supporting the Doctrine of "Offensive Jihad" Against the Infidels
The true meaning of these words is that international treaties, which have been put into place by the infidels, including international law, which forbids aggression--or so they claim, and under their criteria jihad is considered aggression. This claim that Islam accepts what is decreed by these treaties and pacts is slander against Islam. This claim disables jihad in the path of God to establish the word of God, subjugating it under international law—or is this not their meaning? For Islam makes jihad a requirement, and international agreements prohibit jihad for Muslims!
*******************************
http://www.straitstimes.com/BreakingNews/SEAsia/Story/STIStory_611676.html

Nazri Aziz, a minister in the premier's department in charge of legal affairs, said the government has no plan to review laws allowing for underage marriages because the practice is permitted under Islam.

'If the religion allows it, then we can't legislate against it,' he told a press conference.

'Islam allows it as long as the girl is considered to have reached her pubescent stage, once she has her menstruation,' he added.
******************************

I can't believe the malarkey I am seeing and reading with my own eyes. One guy writes a treatise on how and why Mary must be immaculately conceived, so her so called son would be immaculate. It is astounding that anyone believes this horse manure, in 21st century. Parthenogenesis, has never been observed among higher order species such as birds or mammals. But now we are to believe that it had happened at least twice. As a matter of fact even the tyrant Genghis Khan was also supposedly born of a virgin mother. So virgin birth is not that uncommon after all. I wonder MO was also immaculately conceived? And then we have the ever present Yasser Yousufi who laments that while Muslims respect all the fictitious characters from the OT and NT the Jews and Xtians don't respect his beloved prophet. Little does he take note of the fact that those who are critical of MO for his despicable character are also critical of the fictitious characters such his beloved Musa - the genocider, Abraham the wife pimper, Job drunken slob, Lot the drunkard incesting perv. I don't know what it is that Yasser sees in these fictitious characters that is worth any respect. If these characters were to appear suddenly in say Saudi Arabia or Pakistan each one of them will be quartered, with sole except of Moses because genocide is what Islam teaches and the Moses would fit right in. In fact Moses was indeed MO's role model.

Islam denies the Christians and the Jews the right to their own religion. The Muslims assert that the Christians and the Jews have corrupted their own scriptures. And then Islamic law does not allow the Christians and Jews to openly practice their religion because it is corrupted Islam according to the Muslims.

Eboo, instead of writing these nauseating distortions trying to convince the Christians that your violent Islam is similar to other faiths, why don't you address why the laws in all Muslim countries implement hate against the non-Muslims. It is a simple enough question: Why do the Sharia inspired laws in all Muslim countries treat non-Muslims as second class citizens? You should be able to answer that.

More is written about Moses than about any other prophet in the Quoran, more about Moses than about Mohammed.

However, some Muslims are trying a new tactic with Christians, particularly in America as in Europe this "Discover Jesus in the Quoran" has not gone over well. Ditto Discover Jesus and Mary.

Here in Brooklyn it was on every third bumper sticker as two Saudi funded Centers tried to make inroads in two black Christian neighborhoods.

Wrong neighborhoods. Very Christian, huge churches with highly esteemed ministers, whose congregants went berserk.

Now I've got an idea for Muslims.

Learn about G-d in Tanakh.

Learn about Jesus and Mary in Quoran. He DID die.

Learn about MOses in Tanakh.

Stop asking Mohammed to put in a word for you in heaven. And let go of the neighborhood Jinn.

Thomas Paul Moses Baum,

The Virgin Mary is and will always be a virgin because of the following 3 reasons:

1. Her SPOUSE is the HOLY SPIRIT. It is through the Holy Spirit that Jesus was conceived in her womb (Luke 1:35). For this reason, she would never have conjugal relations with any man, including Joseph her earthly husband. Being a virgin and remaining a virgin is a virtue--particularly in anyone who have given and offered everything up to God--Just as Mary had done.
2. Her Son, Jesus, is the Word of God incarnate, who is Himself God and Divine. He would protect and keep his Mother pure and virtuous for all eternity.
3. God The Father is her heavenly Father. He would want the Mother of His Son Jesus to be completely pure and virtuous. For that very reason, He kept Mary from ever being stained with Original Sin--thus we celebrate The Feast of the Immaculate Conception; which means that God had planned for Mary to be the Mother of the Divine Jesus, therefore He protected her from Original Sin from the moment of her conception in her mother's womb.

Mary's Immaculate Conception is absolutely necessary, because if she did have Original Sin, then it can be argued that Jesus would also inherit Original Sin. Jesus, the Son of God, cannot have sin. But, God would never even allow anyone to even argue that point because He had already protected the Immaculate Mary from original sin.

"STUBLORE,

How about getting your head out of your fat bottom and getting some education gringo! You dont know nothing about Islam. Just stick to delivering pizzas and playing nintendo. This is a serious forum dude!

POSTED BY: YASSERYOUSUFI | DECEMBER 9, 2010 12:13 PM
"

Well based on you reply, you and I have a VERY different meaning of the word "Serious"!.
Do you know what an ad hominem attack is?
Would you agree that they have no place in a "serious" forum?
Btw thank you for proving my point!
Would you class yourself as a moderate muslim?
As a strictly historical account, both the koran and hadith are worthless.
And there is a wealth of evidence that the koran was plaigiarised, and badly at that.
It badly mangles the bible, the torah,Greek science, Arab mythology etc etc.

Why did you call me gringo btw?

billybob100

You wrote, "The Virgin Mary have always been and remained a virgin."

Do you know this or believe this?

If you know this how do you know this or if you believe this why do you believe this?

I happen to believe that Mary was "ever virgin" but not in a biological sense but that she was a biological virgin when she conceived and bore Jesus.

You also wrote, " I applaud my Muslim "brothers" that they honor the Virgin Mary for her faith and obedience to God."

Mary's "faith and obedience" was Mary saying YES and living out that YES.

All human beings are our brothers and sisters.

You say that you are a Christian, what are your thoughts on the god of islam denying that Jesus is God-Incarnate?

Jesus being God-Incarnate is the Foundation of Christianity.

As Jesus asked, "Who do you say that I AM?", I say that Jesus is God-Incarnate, the god of islam says that He is not God-Incarnate, merely a prophet.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

iNTERESTING:

Before i[WE] begin; me'd like to share a secret (an EKLAH-t-i-ON or Apocalyptarian) Legend i held back from all of you onfaith-Bloger's & it goes like this this:

There was a Great man named "SHILOM" who wrote the supplement part ofthe Eklahtarian's "B.O.T." {"Book Of Tran{Finity"} discussing a conversation between his DADDY. So here it is. Note: This is the "SHiLOM" recording this holyi moment:

"... About 9-months after me Boy/SON was born; he miraculously started to talk, Clearly & coherently, from his crib saying,

".. DAD, you are NOt-My-Father" & proceeded, "...Your Mother was Cosmically impregnated by my 4-Four "FATHER(s)" [Moses, Vyasa, Jesus & Muhammad] in heaven, whom all 4-four had sex with my [Human] Mother (your wife) while she was asleep. And their Cosmic Sperm had immaculately coalesced yet they became 1-One representing ME. But i Love you as my Daddy in flesh, is that O.K. Dadda? .." SO,

i said or asked the lad, "SON, can you prove to me that you are truly the SON of the Four Great Prophets as being ONE(1) in You?" So The

Lad said, "Sure Daddy; You see Dad i was born & blessed with the Knowledge and the Power of all 4-BOOKS of my Father(s). i know the CHUMASH, i know the GEETA, i know the NEW-TESTAMENT & i know the QURAN & some.. includes knowing All the Languages on Earth & from other Worlds"

So i asked the 9-month old Wise-lad, "O.K. SON, Prove to your Dadda, that you Know All the Writings of your 4-Four-FATHER(s). He asked to bring Him All-4Four-Holyi-Books.

So, i brought He/Him him (not a SHE/Her) All 4-Four Books (Chumash, Geeta, Bible & Koran & even the Kangyurs). So he told me, "Daddy-o please Start with the 1st-page of the Chumash and Follow the words as i recite them verbatim, O.K. Dadda?" i said O.K. Boy. So,

The Lad started to recite, word-for-word, Pasik by Pasik, Stanza by Stanza, Sura, by Sura.. Here alittle & there alittl he Even recited all the Buddhist Books. i was shocked, and so i knelt down calling him "THE-SON-OF-OUR-4Four-FATHERS" via 1-One////Mother!

PS: This is a genuine "EKLAH"t-ion Story, never heard on Earth Before by anyone and which is part of our Scripture which is recorded so faithfully in our O.U.R.(O.ne U.niversal R.eligion) Book a/k/a the "ULTRAPARATESTAMENT" of the "NEW-Song" (Conceived from All OUR OLD of course).
____

Fact: On S.pace-S.hip Earth There is NO such a 'thing' via some Religion moniker as being a "MONO-THEO" (1-god). That feat, is impossible to attain or even claim by any Human!

Unfortunate, one must accept this TRUTH (opposite MYTH) realizing That All, Every & Any ABRAHAMIC' Flavors of competing god(s) Systems only worship a POLY-THEO Systems. Same like HINDU & somewhat like in Buddhism. So

It is Humanly & godly impossible o have a "Mono-Theo Religion in Reality (Anywhere in the Universe!) Pleasa, Do Not be in denial to selves nor loved ones.

YOU Worship what YE/YO Know NOt! O' POLY-THEiSTS, O' Atheist haters. OYE...!

Re: comments by JOE_ALLEN_DOTY

The Virgin Mary have always been and remained a virgin. Your argument that the Bible noted Jesus mentioning "my brothers" is not a valid argument. In Hebrew (as in many other languages, including English), the term "brother" can mean, "cousins", "friends", or "my fellow brethens". I applaud my Muslim "brothers" that they honor the Virgin Mary for her faith and obedience to God. I saddens me that so many of my fellow Christian brethens do not do the same.

"if more people knew that Islam condemns all acts of violence against innocent people ...it would go a long way to bring harmony and peace among all the faith communities in our great nation."

If you could convince the people like Nidal Hasan and Faisal Shahzad, the rest of us might start believing you.

People aren't fearful of Islam due to an ignorance about some similarities shared by Islam and Christianity. The fear of Islam is generated by an international movement, that is 1400 years old, to extend the dominion of Islam, through sword or otherwise, until everyone lives according to the Muslim belief system, whether as a believing Muslim or one who accepts subjugation under Muslim rule. The fear of Islam is based on a rational response to a slew of violent attacks by people committing violent acts in the name of Islam and expressly committed as a consequence of their faith in Islam. Tiny number? Relative term. But look at the recent Pew study on attitudes in Muslim countries about the implementation of shariah law and what role Islam should have in governing a country. To be honest, I don't really care if Islam honors "prophets" also honored by Christians and Jews. That doesn't matter. What matters is how the beliefs of Islam translate into actions and that is why people fear the Religion of Submission.

Joseph considered divorcing Mary privately when he found out that Mary was pregnant before they even lived together.

But, after the 40 days after Jesus was born, Mary, who was then Joseph's wife, was expected to have sexual relations with Joseph.

Mary was NOT a virgin after that 40 day period was over. How do I know that? Mary had sons by Joseph.

Jesus' brothers literally thought that Jesus was out of his mind and they took her to where he was preaching because they were going to take him back to Nazareth.

Although they showed up at the place where he was preaching, he said "My mother and my brothers are those who do the will of those who sent me."

They went back to Nazareth without him; but, they did support his ministry and later became his disciples.

It matters not how you may revere the Jewish and Christian prophets of old, what matters is how your people deal with their followers today. Mohammedans’ hate the Jews, they treat the Christians with disdain in their own countries.

Any news about the Woman in Pakistan who is to be killed for saying the truth about your prophet (mohammed)? And why she could not drink out of the same bucket that the muslim women could?

Blasphemy laws kill the followers of other religions in Islamic countries. Strange Eboo never mentions anything about that?

Your backs are against the wall here. Most muslims in the USA are immigrants they are not yet first or second generation. They come from countries where they enjoy privileges they deny to people of other faiths. In the USA Msulims are not used to being the idiots with a dirty man for a prophet. With barbaric laws (sharia) that are not fit for cave man. Muslims praise and almost worship their prophet without challenge in muslim countries, here muslims cry discrimination when told their prophet was a pedophile and a crazy, your sharia we want banned. Don’t tell us your koran has nice things to say about Mary or Jesus, we already know your koran is not worth the paper its written on.

Hassaballa says:

“And thus, it makes me sad that all Muslims - who universally love and honor all of the Prophets of God - are lumped together with the tiny number of criminals who commit crimes in Islam's name.”

That does seem unfair except that those “tiny number of criminals” justify their acts by quoting from the Islamic holy texts and never heard a senior cleric dispute their claims. The Muslim clerics who should be the transmitters of the “true” Islam message are the ones who are inciting much of the violence we see today. Off course some of those imams in the West say in public what they think the West likes to hear yet their actions say otherwise. It is called taqqiya and they are adept at it. One imam in New York was pretending he was cooperating with the FBI and it turned that he was misleading them by forewarning the suspected terrorist.

STUBLORE,

How about getting your head out of your fat bottom and getting some education gringo! You dont know nothing about Islam. Just stick to delivering pizzas and playing nintendo. This is a serious forum dude!

Joseph wondered why Mary kept saying "God is good."

@YASSERYOUSUFI1
Lol, how would you like it if I referred to your prophet mo as a fraud and a fake?
I would imagine that feeling is how most xtians feel when they read Hesham's piece.
It's like a bad and cheesy rip off a well loved character.
Which is not surprising, given that the koran, if it were a novel, would be nothing but other peoples plaigiarised fairytales and mistaken ideas about how the world/Universe works.

"...
if more people knew that we Muslims are not like the criminals who act in the name of our faith, it would go a long way to bring harmony and peace among all the faith communities in our great nation.
"
If more people of faith instead used Reason, that would go a long way to bringing peace and harmony to communities.
What's even sadder is that there seems to be more of those who supposedly "misunderstand" the message in Eboo's faith than in pretty much every other faith combined.
Perhaps his time would be better spent finding out why this is, and trying to correct their "misunderstandings".
Imaginary p*ssing contests over whose fairy tale is correct are impossible to determine, and invariably lead to bad feelings on both sides.

I find it even more amusing that 7 centuries after the events occurred, somehow islam got the skinny on what actually happened, which the xtians had somehow managed to get wrong!(I am NOT saying that the xtians DID get it right, simply saying how amusing and unlikely those early mohemmedans did).

How about some of these people try to reach out to some atheists sometime?

Eboo! Your courage and resolve is laudable. As another poster on your blog said, Its so easy to be a muslim bashing writer these days, specially if you come from a Muslim background. You'll get fame and fortune and a huge platform to spew hatefulness. I am not surprised I've never seen you on any of the major news channels, atleast not as much as I see Ayyan Hirsi Ali, Nonie Darweesh, Irshad Manji etc. Thats probably because no one in the western establishment wants to hear muslims like you.

Virgin Mary is just as revered in Islam as Fatima, Khadija and Ayesha. So are all the other Prophets of the Banu Israel. You will never hear a muslim speak of these holy men and women in a disrespectfull manner. Thats is why its even more painfull for us when they insult our Holy Prophet and Holy Books without any provocation using the false premise of freedom of speech.

So you can brace yourself for attack by the usual Islamophobes with non-sequitors ad conflations asking you to only bash Islam like the so called reformers/former muslims they love to read and never show the true face of Islam that is practiced by a majority of muslims. If I were you I would just disregard the jerks.