Hosea verses are prophetic and must be read in context. The verses quoted here are graphic descriptions following more abstract ones--If you didn't get it the first time, try this! This sort of rhetorical move is typical of the period. The text, of course, is meant to serve as warnings to the Samaritans. There is, of course, plenty of (secular) material available on the Northern Kingdom.

There are about seven hundred Samaritans remaining on the planet. They are viewed as Bene Israel and view themselves that way.

KoK1 you may want to read the book

http://www.amazon.com/Closing-Muslim-Mind-Intellectual-Islamist/dp/1933859911

It gives you the history that I alluded to in my previous post. Hopefully it will help you understand and as an American Muslim maybe you can help lead the Muslims bring back to some reason and rationality.

Briefly the problem is that most muslims believe the Quran to be the literal word of Allah, and if that is true then is it eternal or not. If Allah is eternal then so must his word goes the reason. If it is eternal then when did it come into existence? Allah is beyond Time, and so must be his word went the logic. Hence Quran is eternal and existed always. That is why many Muslims tell you that the Original is in Heaven and was there before the universe was created. However, as you see that many of the verses in the Quran are about people and events that took place in the time of Muhammad, then what "free will" could these people have if everything that is going to happen is already written down in a pre existing eternal book? That of course leads to absolute pre-destination and ever since Muslims fudge very very poorly about free will. The fudge basically means the absence of any "real" free will. That is why the issue of Abu Talib that I raised with you and why an Allah that denies real free will to his creation leads to an Allah that is not very nice.

KoK1 writes: "Has it ever occured to anyone that some reference to violence in quran was relevant only during the period when it was being attempted to be wiped off completely by its enemies?"

Yes it has. And tens of thousands of Muslims have been killed in Islam's history over trying to get others to believe what you claim as true so casually. That debate raged in Islam for a long time. Look up Ashari and how that is distinguished from Mutazili. The Ashari Aqeeda states:

The Qur’an is the speech of Allah, not something created which must therefore die out, nor the attribute of something created which must therefore come to an end.
[ The Qur’an is the speech of Allah which is not created and is timeless, outside of
temporal time. Hence it will not end as creatures must end, but will abide endlessly.]

Whereas the Mutazili considered Quran to be Makhlooq and viewed that human rationality could be used to interpret the Quranic Verses and some of them were temporal in nature, that is what you are claiming.

Asharis won and all Sunni schools at present all great Imams of the last 1000 years, and all the Sharia of all the various fiqhs are Ashari.

However, you should know that the Mutazilis were hounded and killed a long time ago. You have just stated a heresy for orthodox Muslims. In many parts of Pakistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc. if you stuck to what you are saying you are likely to be killed as a heretic. An example of a Mutazili recanting his views out of fear of being killed:
http://aqeedah.wordpress.com/2006/12/09/ibn-aqils-retraction/

However, that argument does not apply to any of the questions I have asked of you. Allah still does not forgive Shirk and all non-Muslims still commit shirk one way or another. The hate for the non-Muslim is not something that was limited to the time of Muhammad. That is still part of Islam. Are you claiming that 4.59 or 5.51 is no longer valid?

I do not think you are trying to deceive the Kafirs because I suspect you do not know your Islam very well. You are saying what you think is true.

Please try to answer the questions I have posed to you. They are not that difficult. Why do you keep avoiding giving simple straightforward answers to simple questions?

Has it ever occured to anyone that some reference to violence in quran was relevant only during the period when it was being attempted to be wiped off completely by its enemies?

Posted by: Kingofkings1

KoK1, just because your tongues have know bones to keep them straight and narrow does not meant that it must be twisted as you please and whenever it pleases you. You Islamic apologists claim that that silly vile tome was uncreated, you and your ilk also claim that it is an eternal guidance to all mankind. Then how is it that you also claim some of the violence expounded was for a certain period only? These two claims at once beg several questions about that silly text.

1) On the face of it these two claims are contradictory. How is it that you come across as a bumbling buffoon to push such contradictions under the rug?

2) Even if we concede that it is possible to have at once eternal guidance as well as some for a period of time, it still begs the question - How is it that time dependent guidance is limited to just teh time of MO and for no other time? Doesn't that come across a bit as I suspect that that book is MO's creation and none others?

3) Where in you al kittab does it come out and clearly state what you claim? You know this BS don't you? If it does not say that in so many words, please pray tell us how you came up on your claim.

In short you are full of SCAT. I will concede that those other books are also full of unadulterated pig manure and so is your al kittab.

Kooky Kafir wrote:
KoK1 writes: "Kafir, you don't seem to have problems with the very peaeful verses noted above. Why?"
Because I do not know their intent or context or history. I am not jewish. I hope Farnaz or another Jew will tell you and put them in context for you.
I do know of the criticism that is levelled against the God of the Old Testament and the Yaweh of the Jews. These criticism are widely available. Here is Dawkins on that topic:..

Adolf Abraham wrote:
The above are not commands by Allah for all times and places as codified in the Quran but one time incitements by Hebrew priests for their followers to conquer a land deeded them by Allah. This is no different than the many we hear on a a daily basis in mosques around the world against the “Zionists” and the “Crusaders”.

--------------------------------------
The reference to the above verses was towards both christian and jewish scriptures, since christian doctrine is a continuation of the jewish scripture

Both Kooky Kafir and Adolf Abraham are engaged in a propaganda that is now commonly accepted in the west, but ludicrous: you have one standard where you whitewash the references to violence in your scriptures and magnify the same from the quran.

Has it ever occured to anyone that some reference to violence in quran was relevant only during the period when it was being attempted to be wiped off completely by its enemies?

KoK1 writes: "Kafir, you don't seem to have problems with the very peaeful verses noted above. Why?"

Because I do not know their intent or context or history. I am not jewish. I hope Farnaz or another Jew will tell you and put them in context for you.

I do know of the criticism that is levelled against the God of the Old Testament and the Yaweh of the Jews. These criticism are widely available. Here is Dawkins on that topic:

http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2008/12/richard-dawkins-god-of-old-testament.html

The important thing is that I do not see any Jew wanting to go Kill Dawkins. The reason I don't care for the verses of the Bible is because I do not hear or see any systematic threat to kill and behead those who criticise. A few simple cartoons of Muhammad and six years later the rage of the believers is still seeking mass murder of the Kafirs.

Of course you or Asizk will bring up Israel and the murder that the jews are committing against the Palestinians. I know the double talk of the Muslims, and I have heard enough duplicity and lying on the part of Arafat and the Palestianian leaders to know that there is nothing the Israelis can do to make peace between them and the Muslims. Muslims cannot live with what they consider Islamic land being taken over by Kufr. That is why the Pakistani Jihadis want the flag of Islam flying over the Red Fort in Delhi, that is why the Jihadis want the return of Spain, that is why the Jihadis want most of souther Russia as an Islamic State, and that is why they want Southern Thailand, and half of Philipines, etc. The two nation theory that caused the death of over a million humans in South Asia is rampant where ever Islam holds sway. Israel is merely one of the fronts of the bloody borders of Islam. Those Kafirs who think that Islam will make peace with the Jews are deluding themselves. Allah's special hate is reserved for the Jews, and it is intolerable that the Jews have their own State surrounded by Muslim lands and surviving and thriving. That goes against all the curses and abuses Allah hurls at the Jews in the Koran. And for that reason, the Muslims will never ever accept Israel.

However, you reveal yourself as having no Christian or Jewish Friends. So are you completely consumed by the hate for the non-Muslim?

Kingkong quotes the following from the Old Testament:
“Take all the heads of the people
and hang them up before the Lord
against the sun.” -- Numbers 25:4
"...They shall fall by the sword:
their infants shall be dashed in
pieces, and their women with child
(pregnant) shall be ripped up!"
-- Hosea 13:16”
The above are not commands by Allah for all times and places as codified in the Quran but one time incitements by Hebrew priests for their followers to conquer a land deeded them by Allah. This is no different than the many we hear on a a daily basis in mosques around the world against the “Zionists” and the “Crusaders”.

Kafir wrote:
Do you have any Christian or Jewish Friends? Of course you do. Why? Don't you listen to your Allah's commands? Think about it. Think the evil commands that Allah gives. Why?
--------------------------------------

Here is a nice command:
"Take all the heads of the people
and hang them up before the Lord
against the sun.” -- Numbers 25:4
"...They shall fall by the sword:
their infants shall be dashed in
pieces, and their women with child
(pregnant) shall be ripped up!"
-- Hosea 13:16

Kafir, you don't seem to have problems with the very peaeful verses noted above. Why?

KoK1 writes: "until you reveal to me your faith that inspires your hatred of islam."

I repeat:
Islam rejects and refuses to be a personal religion. It rejects the separation between the state and the Mosque in the strongest terms. It hates the non-Muslims and it seeks to oppress the Kafirs every where and impose upon them the status of dhimmis. Kafirs every where should reject that and fight it at every level.

Only a fool would accept the status of second class human that Islam offers to the non-Muslims. Just examine the laws of ANY Muslim country and see it treats non-Muslims and you will get a crystal clear picture of what Islam offers the non-Muslims. Is there any Muslim country now or in history where non-Muslims were ever even offered equality as citizens of the state?
Over Quarter of a BILLION non-Muslims killed over the years due to Islamic Jihad, and one has to still answer why Islam is despicable.

KoK1 writes:" A "secular humanist" is a lame response, which can fit any faith system including islam"

You don't have a clue. Please tell us how secular humanist can fit Islam?

http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/2001/06/What-Secular-Humanists-Believe.aspx

Belief in Deity:
Not considered important. Most Humanists are atheists or agnostics.

You consider belief in Allah unimportant?

Educate yourself a bit:

http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=main&page=what_is

Try answering some of the questions asked of you. You are not doing a very good job of defending your Allah or your Islam. Do you have any Christian or Jewish Friends? Of course you do. Why? Don't you listen to your Allah's commands? Think about it. Think the evil commands that Allah gives. Why?

abrahamhab1 writes: "he would refuse to answer because you assumed he is an American. He might be living in America, but never loyal to any nation but the Ummah: the virtual Nation of Islam."

He claims to be an American, born in USA. Those who have immigrated to USA usually provide themselves the excuse that they have entered a contract by accepting the citizenship and therefore they are obliged to honor the contract and that is why they should be loyal citizen. That is in a way, an admission that they do not consider themselves really American but only contractual Americans. Remember the Oath does not mean much to a Muslim because their Allah allows them to break an Oath.

However, for those born in USA, there is no contract excuse. The question I have asked KOK1 does not have a clear, unambiguous Islamic answer. The answer that the Muslims have given in India for example is that since they are allowed a separate legal system and because the Indian allow them to implement Sharia within Muslim communities they do not have to be at war with the Indians. Other Indian Muslims state that India is part of the Islamic lands and hence it is their job to bring India back to the house of Islam, and there is no conflict in being Indian because India really is part of the Islamic world. They view the secular government of India as occupiers.

I know loyal Americans who are Muslims and I know the answer they give. I ask the question of KoK1, and others can ask of the Muslims you come across, and their answer or their avoiding the answer often lays bare the inherent contradiction of Islam in the modern world.

Kafir wrote:
I have made no effort to hide my beliefs. I am a "secular humanist". I regard all religions to be man made. I think religious beliefs are there because man's biology and evolution has found them to be useful.

----------------------------------------

Kafir, you are still hiding behind semantics. I already said I will not satisfy your schizoid needs until you reveal to me your faith that inspires your hatred of islam. A "secular humanist" is a lame response, which can fit any faith system including islam - and there have been a number of such individuals in islamic history. If you are enthralled by christian beliefs, say so opensly. Same for jewish beliefs, hinduism, or atheism. A truly secular humanist would find all faith systems equally incompatible. Find some other term to describe yourself. You can choose from any of these: an opportunist, anarchist, rabble rouser, a self-hating former muslim, or a hopelessly confused schizoid

Adolf Abraham wrote:
AKafir asks KOK thus:
“I asked you, who you as an American accept as an authority who you obey, and you refuse to answer.’’
Off course he would refuse to answer because you assumed he is an American. He might be living in America, but never loyal to any nation but the Ummah: the virtual Nation of Islam. I know you had disagreed with me on this point before but all indications seem to favor my position.

----------------------------------------

I believe this question has been answered by Joseph Goebbels in the recent past. No response is necessary.

ps I do not wish to satisfy the desire pyromaniacs

AKafir asks KOK thus:
“I asked you, who you as an American accept as an authority who you obey, and you refuse to answer.’’

Off course he would refuse to answer because you assumed he is an American. He might be living in America, but never loyal to any nation but the Ummah: the virtual Nation of Islam. I know you had disagreed with me on this point before but all indications seem to favor my position.

Stop being lazy Eboo............start a new thread!

Scanning some posts reveal that there is little conversation about religious practice - the actual practice of self-transcendence or ego-trancendence that religions are all about.

Instead its belief-religion, meaning believe my old book was written by The Supreme Being and yours was not thus written. Or its politics.

All true religions have as their base a Realizer who gives the Teachings about the practices one does to go beyond the ordinary human condition of the body-mind complex.

These transmitted truths become the Way. The books are pointers to the way but the actual application of practice is the actual way, not the books.

KoK1:

Your brain boils but you will not answer a single question asked of you. You hide behind cut and paste of silly islamic sites.

You claimed 5000 Muslims killed by the enemies of Islam and you refuse to state where you come up with the number.
I showed you your Allah's commands that you should obey "those charged with authority among you" (Koran 4:59), and also warns you not to take 'awliyaa' (friends or protectors) from among the Christians or the Jews (Koran 5:51). I asked you, who do you as an American accept as an authority who you obey, and you refuse to answer. You charged the American Government of terrorism and of killing Muslims by their favorite terror weapon of bombing. You charge the Americans of killing millions of Muslims. The American Government, the Executive, the Legislative and the Judicial branches are filled with Christians, Jews, and Atheists. Do you accept any of them as "awliyaa" as an American Citizen or not?

I have shown you the obvious error of the Koran regarding the location and origin of the prostate fluids and the semen, and the idiotic explanation by the Moron in-chief Dr. Zakir Naik. I asked you to explain what fluid is your Allah talking about. Again you are silent.

Do you think your silence makes these questions go away? Do you think I am the only one asking these questions? Do you understand that these questions will pervade the net and they have to a large extent, and young Muslims will be asked again and again to come up with the answers. Answers that make sense to them and to those around them.

I have made no effort to hide my beliefs. I am a "secular humanist". I regard all religions to be man made. I think religious beliefs are there because man's biology and evolution has found them to be useful. I do not think any religion has all the answers to the needs of Man, and the change now is faster than ever and the religious thought is under great stress to accommodate that change. All religions are under stress from the accumulation of scientific knowledge. Man apparently needs religion and different people are at different levels of emotional and psychological "maturity", and many obviously need the religious thought for a variety of reasons. I have no problems with it as long as they keep it as their private and personal affair. Islam rejects and refuses to be a personal religion. It rejects the separation between the state and the Mosque in the strongest terms. It hates the non-Muslims and it seeks to oppress the Kafirs every where and impose upon them the status of dhimmis. Kafirs every where should reject that and fight it at every level.

Guidance is a special gift from, only available to special individuals. For those who don't deserve Guidance, God has locked up their faculties so they will never be able to taste its rewards.

"Everything made so much sense. This is the beauty of the Qur'an; it asks you to reflect and reason....When I read the Qur'an further, it talked about prayer, kindness and charity. I was not a Muslim yet, but I felt the o¬nly answer for me was the Qur'an and God had sent it to me." Cat Stevens (YusufIslam), former British pop star.

ps, kafir, if you provide me with information about what positively motivates you in your current religion except the hatred of islam, I can attempt to address your questions. As a matter of fact, my brain boils when I read your diatribes of hatred and despite your best attempts to create the illusions of hell, I take pity in your desire for momentary pleasure. Perhaps this is what motivates you:

"This woman said to me, 'Give your
son, that we may eat him today, and
we will eat my son tomorrow.' So we
boiled my son, and ate him. And on
the next day I said to her, 'Give
your son, that we may eat him'; but
she has hidden her son." When the
king heard the words of the woman
he rent his clothes. . . and said,
"This trouble is from the Lord! . . . "
--2 Kings 6:28-30

Since KoK1 won't provide a link to the wisdom of the Kafirs, here is one. I think it covers nearly all of the quotes KoK1 has been cutting and pasting:

http://www.islamicity.com/Mosque/aboutislam.htm

Please read, get duly impressed and now go to your nearest masjid and "revert" right away.

Here KoK1, I will help you out and provide you with the link for one of the Chief Morons (Dr. Zakir Naik). He is a Medical Doctor no less and he should know about Embryology, and he is taking your side and telling the world that Quran is 1000% correct. He even quotes Dr. Keith L. Moore (but unfortunately only his 3rd Edition and not the seventh by which time Dr. Moore had gotten tired of asking the Islamic Morons to stop using his name and reference as a supporter of Quranic Science).

http://www.islamicvoice.com/january.97/scie.htm

See what he says (and you are unlikely to find a better explanation, and trust me, I have seen them all. But then you never know if one of the morons comes up with some new stupidity):

The Qur'an mentions in Surah Al-Tariq (chapter no. 86), verses 5-7; (86: 5-7)

"Now let man but think from what he is created! He is created from a drop emitted proceeding from between the back bone and the ribs".

In embryonic stages, the reproductive organs of the male and female, ie. the testicles and the ovaries, begin their development near the kidney exactly between the spinal column and the eleventh and twelfth ribs. Later they descend; the female gonads (ovaries) stop in the pelvis while the male gonads continue their decent before birth to reach the scrotum outside the body through the inguinal canal. Even after the embryonic stage after the decent of the reproductive organ, these organs receive their nerve supply and blood supply (from the Aorta) and lymphatic drainage which is in the area between the backbone (spinal column) and the ribs.

The catch is that there is no "gushing" of the liquid at the embryonic stage as Allah informs. Gee the gushing is not even there for pre-pubertal children!! By the time the gushing begins, the "gonads" are nowhere between the spine and the ribs.

Gee, where did Allah get his crazy information? Well one does not have to look very far. All one has to do is ask what medical theories were available in the middle east at that time and what do those guys say. I suggest you look up the old Greek Galen and his theories on reproductive systems. The creative fluid used to flow up the spine and out and between the spine and the ribs before it was ejected. In women it used to collect the nourishing fluid from the breasts as it gushed downwards.

The reason why Abu Talibs brain will boil when he is only ankle deep in hell fire is also found in Galen. The brain was not what we now know it is. It was a heat exchanger for the blood and other body fluids. And Muhammad saying that the brain will boil meant that Abu Talib will be unable to dissipate the heat coming in from his feet.

You claim to be an American. Then be an American and start using your brains. You are far better off than I ever was or am. Don't waste your privilege and your opportunity.

Karen Armstrong, NASA (National Association of Simple-minded A-Historians)

KoK1 writes: "Professor Armstrong, Scientist works at NASA, I am impressed that how remarkably some of the ancient writings seem to correspond to modern and recent Astronomy. There may well have to be something beyond what we understand as ordinary human experience to account for the writings that we have seen."

LOL!!! ROFLOL!!!

See what I said. The morons are still claiming that Neil Armstrong converted to Islam.

This made my New Year.

Happy New Year KOK1, and Thank you, thank you for the best laugh I have had in years.

The Quran says:
86.005 PICKTHAL: So let man consider from what he is created.
86.006 PICKTHAL: He is created from a gushing fluid
086.007
086.007
YUSUFALI: Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs:
PICKTHAL: That issued from between the loins and ribs.
SHAKIR: Coming from between the back and the ribs.

It should be possible for KoK1 to consult all these very very famous Embryologists that he is quoting to tell us which "gushing liquid" that comes from between the back and the ribs is from which man is created.

Allah knows everything and so it should not be difficult for KoK1 to tell us which liquid "gushing" from between the back and the ribs created him.

Go ahead KoK, tell it and if there is such a liquid, I will beg forgiveness of Allah and revert back to Islam.

Typical liberal mindset - "I know the answer so there is no need for anyone to find out the facts."

Truly an Islamic way of "arguing"!! I show facts, I ask a question. The latest one was how did KoK arrive at the outrageous number of 5000 Muslims killed yesterday. Is there even an attempt at an answer? Instead the cut and paste continues. And what is the cut and paste supposed to convince a person. It is "See all this very special Kafirs sing praises of Islam and thus Islam must be Divine, and everything AKafir is saying is wrong". I used to be taken in by that line of argument in my life as a Muslim, till I wondered and wanted to know why was it that all these very special Kafirs had not converted to Islam themselves. It is very comforting for a Muslim to hear all these praises but why are they not enough for the praise singers to accept the Koran as final word itself? Really why not? Lo and Behold I was told by many and one can even look up on the web the claims that Dr. T.V.N. Persaud and a whole many other "christian scientists" had sung praises about the perfection of the Quran and converted to Islam. Wow!! Is that really true?
Now notice that Dr. Persaud is talking about some Moore guy, and who is this Moore? He is co-author Keith L. Moore. To make the story short:
In fact, embryologist Dr. Keith L Moore (the only embryologist quoted by Islamic sources) has admitted that the embryology in the holy Quran is a repetition of Greek and Indian medicine as is evident in his recent books, such as: The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology by Keith L. Moore (Author), T. V. N. Persaud (Author), 7th edition, ISBN: 0721694128. Page 9 of the book shows without doubt that the Quran generally repeats the Greeks and the Hindus. Yet, Islamic websites insist to continue to quote him from the 1980s when he was financially patronized by the Saudi royal family and possibly even ignorant about the work of the Greeks or the content of ancient Hindu scriptures.

Also, J. Needham, a well known authority on the history of embryology and a reference cited in Keith Moore's books as well dismissed embryology in the holy Quran as merely "a seventh-century echo of Aristotle and the Ayer-veda" (J. Needham, Cambridge, 2nd edition 1959, A History of Embryology, page 77).

And Persaud never converted to Islam despite all the claims being pushed by the many Islamist sites. It is in the same category as the claims of Neil Armstrong converting to Islam as soon as he landed on the moon. Believe it or not there are Muslims who still tell you that.

KoK1, why not quote the first author Keith L. Moore and only the second author T.V.N. Persaud?

Adolf Abraham, cont'd:
 Professor Palmer a scientist from the U.S. We need research into the history of early Middle Eastern oral traditions to know whether in fact such historical events have been reported. If there is no such record, it strengthens the belief that Allah transmitted through Muhammad bits of his knowledge that we have o¬nly discovered for ourselves in recent times. We look forward to a continuing dialogue on the topic of science in the Qur’aan in the context of geology. Thank you very much.
 Professor Tagata Tagasone, formerly Head of the Department of Anatomy and Embryology at the University of Shiang Mai in Thailand. He is now the Dean of the College of the Medicine at the University. From my studies and from what I have learned throughout this conference, I believe that everything that has been recorded in the Quraan 1400 years ago must be the truth, that can be proved by the scientific means. Since the Prophet Muhammad could neither read nor write, Muhammad must be a messenger who relayed this truth which was revealed to him as an enlightenment by the o¬ne Who is an eligible Creator. This Creator must be Allah, or Allah. Therefore, I think this is the time to say ˜Laa ilaaha illallah", that there is no Allah to worship except Allah, ˜Muhammad Rasool Allah", Muhammad is messenger of Allah...
 Professor Armstrong, Scientist works at NASA, I am impressed that how remarkably some of the ancient writings seem to correspond to modern and recent Astronomy. There may well have to be something beyond what we understand as ordinary human experience to account for the writings that we have seen.
 Professor Dorja Rao, It is difficult to imagine that this type of knowledge was existing at that time, around 1400 years back. May be some of the things they have simple idea about, but do describe those things in great detail is very difficult. So, this is definitely not a simple human knowledge."My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world's most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the religious and secular level." --Michael H. Hart, THE 100: A RANKING OF THE MOST INFLUENTIAL PERSONS IN HISTORY, New York: Hart Publishing Company, Inc., 1978, p. 33.

Adolf Abraham wrote:
I don't believe the good doctor regarding his being impressed with the details of scientific nature noted in the quran. Or something to that effect, but in a derogatory manner. Here are some more doctors (none living in islamic occupied countries):
 Professor William W. Hay is one of the best known marine scientists in the United States. satellite photography and emote-sensing techniques. Professor Hay replied: I find it very interesting that this sort of information is in the ancient scripture of the Holy Qur’aan, and I have no way of knowing where they would come from, but I think it is extremely interesting that they are there and that this work is going o¬n to discover it, the meaning of some of the passages. Professor Hay: Well, I would think it must be the divine being!
 Professor Yushudi Kusan: Director of the Tokyo Observatory,I can say, I am very mush impressed by finding true astronomical facts in the Quran.
 Professor Alfred Kroner who is o¬ne of the world's most famous geologists "Thinking about many of these questions and thinking where Muhammad came from, he was after all a bedouin. I think it is almost impossible that he could have known about things like the common origin of the universe, because scientists have o¬nly found out within the last few years with very complicated and advanced technological methods that this is the case.
 Joe Leigh Simpson, Professor of Obstetrics and Gynecology at the North Western University in Chicago in the United States of America. Professor Simpson said: It follows, I think, that not only is there no conflict between genetics and religion, but in fact religion can guide science by adding revelation to some traditional scientific approaches. That there exists statements in the Quran shown by science to be valid, which supports knowledge in the Quran having been derived from Allah.
(cont'd)

KOK quotes another apologist saying:
“You have someone (Mohammad) who was illiterate making profound pronouncement and statements and are amazingly accurate about scientific nature.”

Some assume that every” scientific” matter mentioned in the Quran was unknown to the world in general. They may have been unknown to the people of Hijaz in Arabia but were certainly known to the much more civilized people in the neighboring lands. Let us for the sake of argument assume Mohammad was illiterate, knowledge in the ancient world even in the more civilized ones were conveyed by word of mouth and not through print. Mohammad was exposed to these cultures through his trips to Syria and Yemen on business as a camel caravan driver.
What are the “accurate” statements of scientific nature” that Mohammad made that were not known to either the Greeks, and/or Persians, and/or Egyptians, and/or Syrians, and/or Babylonians, and/ or Hindus, and /or Hebrews etc.? That the sun sets in a muddy well?? or that meteors are missiles fired by angels to drive the Jinn from listening to the councils of Allah? etc.

"I have read the Sacred Scriptures of every religion; nowhere have I found what I encountered in Islam: perfection. The Holy Qur'an, compared to any other scripture I have read, is like the Sun compared to that of a match. I firmly believe that anybody who reads the Word of Allah with a mind that is not completely closed to Truth, will become a Muslim." Saifuddin Dirk Walter Mosig, U. S.A.

p.s. kafir, USA is not an islamically occupied country

Dr. T.V.N. Persaud is a Professor of Anatomy and Head of the Department of Anatomy, and a professor of Pediatrics and Child Health, University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. He is the author or editor of 25 books, and has published over 181 scientific papers. In 1991, he received the most distinguished award presented in the field of anatomy in Canada. "It seems to me that Muhammad was a very ordinary man. He could not read or write. In fact, he was illiterate. We are talking about 1400 years ago. You have someone who was illiterate making profound pronouncement and statements and are amazingly accurate about scientific nature. I personally cannot see how this could be mere chance. There are too many accuracies and, like Dr. Moore, I have no difficulty in my mind in concerning that this is a divine inspiration or revelation which led him to these statements."

kafir Wrote:
That is the freedom that the Kafir Society offers. Is that choice available under your Islam? Is that choice available to any non-muslim in ANY muslim country at present?
It is under that choice that you find many Kafirs who had expressed their uncritical opinion of Islam, and you quote them.

------------------------------------------

The kafir scociety also offered in the recent past: Nazi Germany, communist repressive states, hindu extremist governance (gujarat and kashmir), North American slavery/apartheid, South African apartheid, zionist apartheid. That is not to minimize the accomplishments of US on scientific and social front in the last 100 years, but the trend is definitely downwards on both fronts in the last 10 years.

In regards to justice, it is a key component of the Islamic faith and practice:

O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to God, even as against yourself, or your parents or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for God can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your heart), lest you swerve, and if you distort (justice), or decline to do justice, indeed God is well acquainted with all that you do.
Quran (4:135)

In regards to the quotations about islam, again kafir proves his tongue to be his worst enemy ("It is under that choice that you find many Kafirs who had expressed their uncritical opinion of Islam, and you quote them"). Most of the quotes I documented were from non-muslim, mostly from British occupied India, England, and France, none of which were under the political sway of Islam at the time of the the documentation of the respective quotations. I would like to hear not what kafir hates about islam, but what he loves about christianity, hinduism, atheism, self-worship, or whatever he would like the others to believe to answer the important questions about life.

Here is a nice quotation about justice from the scripture of what kafir seems to be subscribing to:

"...They shall fall by the sword:
their infants shall be dashed in
pieces, and their women with child
(pregnant) shall be ripped up!"
-- Hosea 13:16

Happy New Year Susan Jacoby, Willis Elliott, Schaum, Onofrio, DITLD, Persiflage, Collin Nicholas, JJOvez, Jihadist, eezimamata, KOK, yasseryousufi, Bios, Peter Huff, Walter in Falls Church, Secular, WMARKW, Akafir, Arif2, AbrahamHabibi, CounterWW, Roadrunn', Gladerunner, and All!

KoK1 writes: "In regards to my criticism of US policies while being an American: a citizen who fails to do so is akin to a parent who knows a murder has been committed in the home, but fails to notify the proper authorities, or continues to provide encouragement to the killer. The least he can do is acknowledge that a wrong has been done."

That is the freedom that the Kafir Society offers. Is that choice available under your Islam? Is that choice available to any non-muslim in ANY muslim country at present?

It is under that choice that you find many Kafirs who had expressed their uncritical opinion of Islam, and you quote them. You cut and paste their quotes from some Islamic website without providing any link. Do these sites ever provide quotations of Kafir Scholars who were critical of Islam? No. Never. That freedom is never allowed under Islam. A minor criticism with cartoon and they are still trying to commit mass murder. What critical evaluation is possible, if opinions counter to your beliefs are never allowed or presented?

I show you over quarter of a billion Kafirs killed in Islamic Jihad and all you can do is to whine
"By all standards, the most efficient killers and persecuters are the enemies of islam. Anyone who denies that fact is deceiving himself and others." Who is the enemies of Islam? Is your government under Obama, an enemy of Islam? You called bombing the terrorist choice weapon. You think the care and precaution that your government is taking to minimize any civilian casualities is the action of terrorists?
You claim "Just today, probably we can count 5000 muslims killed in iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, kashmir, and Chechnya, due to the combined strategies of the enemies of islam".
Care to provide any basis for making that claim? Care to tell the Kafirs what is the calculation you do to come up with the 5000 muslims killed number?

Do you have anything to say about the intentional and systematic support of the terrorists by Pakistan in Kashmir for the last 40 or so years to ethnically cleanse Kashmir of hindus that I brought to your attention? Or is the blood and death of a Kafir totally meaningless for you because they are going to go to hell fire anyway?

Your Allah tells you:
004.059
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.
And Muslims always tell that the word for protector is 'awliyaa'.
and also
005.051
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

So KoK1, the American, who do you consider "charged with authority over you" that you obey?

Eeeeha! Praise The HOLYi NO MON/WOM!
.
..
...
FOOD
http://{J}
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HOME
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http://..............................{Z} (do)t US
L♥VE
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CLOTH
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...

Remember; PROCRASTiNATION iS THE THEiF OF Time. So keep busy if Ye can (Employed or Unemployed)!

IMPORTANT: Rich, Middle-class or Poor, If YE hath All these “4-Tetra-Needs“ then Ye hath No Worry’s on this Blesseth Holy Cosmic Miraculous, & zero biblical Sin'th, S.pace-S.hip Planet EARTH, aka S.S. GAiA, S.S. GEOiD, S.S. TELLUSng something!

BEHOLD: SEx is-not LOVE: LiFE iS! Nor is Man-Made Religion(s). LiFE iS LOVE! "HOPE" is our Religion and G-D, if Any, is an "IT" (never a HE/HiM/HiS nor HER/SHE incarnate)!
____

EXILE, Currently estimated at a conservative three million, including children, who have NEVER SEEN THEIR HOMELANDS

Country or territory 1948 Jewish population

Estimated Jewish population 2001 Estimated Jewishpopulation 2008
Aden 8,000 ~0 ~0
Algeria 140,000 ~0 ~0
Bahrain 550-600 around 50
Egypt 75,000-80,000 ~100 100 in 2006 [31]
Iraq 135,000-140,000 ~200 fewer than 100
7-12 in Baghdad

Lebanon 5,000-20,000 < 150 20-40 exclusively in Beirut

Libya 35,000-38,000 0 ~0

Morocco 250,000-265,000 5,230 3,000 in 2006

Sudan 350 ~0 ~0

Syria 15,000-30,000 ~100 100 in 2006

Tunisia 50,000-105,000 ~1,000 in 2006 estimated 1,100 remain.

Yemen 45,000-55,000 400-600 330-350.]

Total 758,350 - 881,350 <7,300 <6,400
Jewish Populations of non-Arab Muslim Countries and territories: 1948 and 2009 Country or territory
1948 Jewish population Estimated Jewish
population 2008-2009
Afghanistan 5,000 1 [46]
Bangladesh Unknown 175, up to 3,500
Iran 70,000-120,000 100,000, 140,000–150,000 10,800 in 2006
Kurdistan (N.Iraq) 50,000[50] A small number in Sanandaj and Mahābād.[50]
Pakistan 2,000, 2,500[51] A tiny community in Karachi, about 200.
Turkey 80,000 17,800 in 2006
Total 202,000 - 282,500 32,100

Farnazmansouri,
I hope you realize that some issues need clarification for both parties

Posted by: Kingofkings1
-----------------------------
Okay. HOwever, since you are referencing Jewish texts, I have started there.

Farnazmansouri,
I hope you realize that some issues need clarification for both parties

Kafir, kafirs, hypocrites and apostates:
By all standards, the most efficient killers and persecuters are the enemies of islam. Anyone who denies that fact is deceiving himself and others. In a decade, over 1.5 million Iraqis, mostly muslim have been killed. Just today, probably we can count 5000 muslims killed in iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, kashmir, and Chechnya, due to the combined strategies of the enemies of islam.

In regards to my criticism of US policies while being an American: a citizen who fails to do so is akin to a parent who knows a murder has been committed in the home, but fails to notify the proper authorities, or continues to provide encouragement to the killer. The least he can do is acknowledge that a wrong has been done.

When the going gets tough, the chaff crosses over to the other side. The strong have their faith strengthened and strengthen the faith

---------------------------------------

“I have to deplore the systematic manner in which the literature of Europe has continued to put out of sight our obligations to the Muhammadans. Surely they cannot be much longer hidden. Injustice founded on religious rancour and national conceit cannot be perpetuated forever. The Arab has left his intellectual impress on Europe. He has indelibly written it on the heavens as any one may see who reads the names of the stars on a common celestial globe.” [John William Draper in the “Intellectual Development of Europe”]
“History makes it clear, however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths that historians have ever repeated” [De Lacy O’Leary in ‘Islam at the Crossroads,’ London, 1923]

Jihadist goes to another blog to point a mistake I made. For those interested you may read the post at
http://onfaith.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/modernmuslim/2010/12/ashura_-_a_time_for_remembrance_and_reconciliation.html
and notice of all the things I asked and said, Jihadist did not address anything of substance but a minor error. The point being that she is still Dutch and she still belongs to her political party. She is doing sterling work with her foundation: http://www.theahafoundation.org/

News from Malaysia of Jihadist:

Malaysian Indigenous Tribes Forced To Convert To Islam In Exchange For Government Aid

http://incognito73.instablogs.com/entry/malaysian-indigenous-tribes-forced-to-convert-to-islam-in-exchange-for-government-aid/

As long as the Non-Muslims know their place as second class humans the Malayas and their government is fine by it, but if they dare to ask to be treated fairly let alone equally then the Justice system abandons them to the inherent supremacist evil of Islam.

Jihadist, you claim hate on my and the ex-muslims part. Why don't you try telling the Kafirs here, how many violent acts have the ex-Muslims committed against the Muslims, and then compare it to the killings and the beheadings of the apostates in the name of Islam that have been done. Give it a try, and perhaps you may see what hate really is. I know it is difficult to see that when you worship Allah, but give it a try.

I believe you answered the question yourself, which is that in the interpretation of the Judaic scripture, some interpreters have the possibility of stretching the written word (perhaps enough to be unrecognizable from the original document). And that some followers of the jewish faith who rely on the talmud and are unable to read the ancient text, would have a different understanding of the original text thru the second parties.
---------------------------------
Every text is, to an extent, internally interpretive. The Tanakh is a particularly marvelous document, as its role in the WEst indicates, but that is another matter.

The Tanakh is written in Hebrew, with a few words in Aramaic.

Observant Jews read it in Hebrew (This is not necessarily the case with the Quran and ARabic, which raises other issues--more, perhaps, later.)and Aramaic.

The Hebrew, of course, is the ancient, not modern. We read it then, as our forebears did, thousands of years ago.

It seems that something is unclear, perhaps, concerning Talmud. If so, let me know and I will try to explain.

For the self-designated ex-Muslims, former Muslims who complained about non-American participation and "interference" in American blogs and American affairs, you are free to come into Malaysia-related blogs - in English or in Malay.

Say, a juicy feisty one like Topix Malaysia (Forums and Polls) where there is everything discussed - from politics to religion to ethnicity to culture. But mostly in Bahasa Indonesia/Bahasa Malaysia languages with smatterings of posts in English.

Come on in - the post entries on religion goes up to over 80,000 in some cases.

And the Peter King proposed hearings is still going to be conducted by a fellow who formerly supported the IRA and the irony of such is completely missed, or ignored.

It would be hilarious as a Monty Python skit but for the fact it is real.

Hearings on Rep. King:

- Rep. King, why did you support the IRA before?

- Were you aware they were a terrorist group?

- If they were not a terrorist group, were they freedom fighters, justice seekers, or just plain murderous criminals?

- Can you provide the names of symphatisers of the IRA in America, their funding sources and their network?

- Are the IRA supporters and symphatisers in America unpatriotic?

(From Pamela Taylor's previous blog)

"The American Kafirs should read the post by the Malaysian Muslim Jihadist and the Pakistani Muslim YasserYousufi. They commiserate to justify the criticism being levelled against Islam. Their Justification is that Hirsi Ali is a liar because she had lied to stay in Denmark, not because she has said any lies about Islam. The Danes dealt with her and she still is a citizen of Denmark. Their justification is that the Christians are liars, the Missionaries are liars, the ex-Muslims are liars.

-Akafir

*******************************************

Denmark?

It was the Netherlands Ayaan Hirsi Ali was at.

Some folks can't tell the Dutch from the Danes? Or, they are all the same?

You are mistaken.

In the words of another Pakistani ex-Muslim (Yunus Shaikh):

http://www.mukto-mona.com/Articles/Younus_Sheikh/IslamWoman2.htm

This was the beginning of the destruction of the classical ancient Indian civilization, and start of the medieval age of Islamic darkness in India. The 11th century witnessed another Islamic murderer and plunderer, Sultan Mahmud Ghaznavi an agent of Islamic Caliph, who utterly ruined the great Indian civilization and looted and plundered most of its wealth. Fifty thousand Hindus were massacred in just one of his attacks at Somnath; he invaded India more than 17 times. Thousands of Hindu men and women were sent to the Islamic Afghani slave markets. The highly cultured and civilized daughters of the noble Hindu families were sold to the illiterate, un-cultured and barbaric Afghanis for equivalent of just one Frank (Pound/Dollar) each. After every Afghani Muslim had four wives each, there were lots of surplus women left; to that the evil Islamic mullahs responded with an ingenious translation of Koranic verses proving that Allah allowed each Muslim to marry 18 women at a time along with an unlimited number of women as concubines. Soon the new military instruments of the Islamic Caliph, the Turks and the Moguls followed, decimated captured Delhi and turned whole of India into a grand open-air slave camp. Sultan Firoze Shah Tughlaq- an Islamic Turk ruler had 100,000 men-slaves and thousands of female sex-slaves in his harem; the pious Islamic Mongol (Mogul) Emperor Shahjehan had 15,000 female sex-slaves and concubines for his personal harem.

**********************
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/pak-used-terrorists-as-a-tool-in-kashmir-un/607270/0

And now from the UN report release to Pakistan:

"The Pakistani military organised and supported the Taliban to take control of Afghanistan in 1996. Similar tactics were used in Kashmir against India after 1989," said the much-awaited report by UN-appointed independent panel to probe the killing of former Pakistan premier Benazir Bhutto.

The three-member panel concluded that such a policy of the Pakistan military to use terrorists as a tool to achieve its strategic objectives against its neighbours resulted in active linkages between elements of the military and the Establishment with radical Islamists at the expense of national secular forces.
*********************

However for KoK1 it is never the problem of the Hate taught in Islam. Muslims are always always the victims and it is the evil Non-Muslims who kill. Whether it is Gaza, Kashmire, Chechneya, Philipines, Southern Thailand, or where ever else on the bloody borders of Islam, it is never never the fault of the poor jihadis.

KoK1 could not resist whining about the muslims being the victim of America. KoK1 claims to be an American! I was asking about the hate that the racist Malaya Jihadist was laying at the feet of the apostates, the ex-Muslims. That questions remains unanswered and of course the Muslim KoK1 could not or would not even give it a passing nod. Instead he picks up the favorite whine of the Killers and their propaganda about the evil American Empire. So let us take a look at that.

Do I need to rehash the history of how many were killed by Saddam, and who insisted that sanctions be imposed on Iraq and who insisted that the Iraqis would rather see its children starve rather than agree to the terms laid out by the security council.

KoK1 brings up Gaza and Kashmir. This after the world acknowledges and accepts now that it is the Pakistani State that has been using Islamic Jihadis as a weapon in Kashmir to kill and destabilize its neigbor for the last 30 to 40 years. But in KoK1's victimhood he cannot see any of that. The Muslims must always be the victims. That is the pattern set by Muhammad. He was always the victim as he butchered and killed and it was always one lie or another to claim his victim status. Is Gaza or Kashmir any different? Not really. But lets take a look what Islamic Jihad has wrecked on the world since it was unleashed by KoK1's Allah.

http://harrisonburg-va.actforamericachapters.org/2010/07/29/1400-years-of-islamic-history-and-270-million-dead-people/

Estimates that Islamic Jihad is responsible for about 270 million dead Kafirs.

Talking about kashmir, take a look at what Islamic Jihad had for the South Asian Kafirs:
http://www.historyofjihad.org/india.html

Considering how easy it is now to get the information of the consequences of Islam on the web compared to a few years ago, I suspect the world is getting tired of the whining and playing the victim by the followers of the killing ideology.

As quoted by Alphonse de LaMartaine in 'Historie de la Turquie':

"If greatness of purpose, smallness of means, and astonishing results are the three criteria of a human genius, who could dare compare any great man in history with Muhammad? The most famous men created arms, laws, and empires only. They founded, if anything at all, no more than material powers which often crumbled away before their eyes. This man moved not only armies, legislations, empires, peoples, dynasties, but millions of men in one-third of the then inhabited world; and more than that, he moved the altars, the gods, the religions, the ideas, the beliefs and the souls.
"On the basis of a Book, every letter which has become law, he created a spiritual nationality which blend together peoples of every tongue and race. He has left the indelible characteristic of this Muslim nationality the hatred of false gods and the passion for the One and Immaterial God. This avenging patriotism against the profanation of Heaven formed the virtue of the followers of Muhammad; the conquest of one-third the earth to the dogma was his miracle; or rather it was not the miracle of man but that of reason.

-----------------------------------

PS, for those whose closed mindedness does not allow for reception of any information to be processed except their hateful view, quotations from the past are provided so that repetition is unnecessary. No need to re-invent the wheel.

Farnaz mansouri wrote:
The Bible is INTERNally interpretive.
The Talmud is a different matter altogether. It is very long, comprising the ORal Law, as redacted by Judah HaNasi, ca 200-220BCE, and the later Gamara. There was tremendous resistence to HaNasi's project for multiple reasons. Prior to HaNasi the oral law was transmitted orally from generation to generation going as far back as Moses, it was believed. With the barbarians in Eretz Israel, it was difficult to know whether this could continue. Hence, Judah HaNasi, it was agreed, would redact the Oral Law.
The Gemarra is commentary of various sorts, some of it legal, some of it in parables, some of it history, etc. It is a remarkable document, volumes long, even containing jokes. This is very cursory, as explanations go.
The Talmud is written Aramaic. The Tanakh in Hebrew, although it does contain a few Aramaic words.

--------------------------------------

I believe you answered the question yourself, which is that in the interpretation of the Judaic scripture, some interpreters have the possibility of stretching the written word (perhaps enough to be unrecognizable from the original document). And that some followers of the jewish faith who rely on the talmud and are unable to read the ancient text, would have a different understanding of the original text thru the second parties.

The confusion regarding the primary sources sources of the new testament is not a controversial topic

Kafir wrote:
I ask you again, please tell us how many Muslims have been beheaded by ex-Muslims? Do you care to tell the good Kafirs here why is it Islamic law that Muslims are to kill ex-Muslims? Is there any ex-Muslim organisation that has called for the death of Muslims just because they are Muslims?
---------------------------------------

By the most recent counts, 1.5 million Iraqi (mostly muslim, mostly women and children) have been murdered by the US over the past 10 years through sanctions and bombings (that's right, bombing - the favorite tool of the terrorist). In Gaza and West bank, tens of thousands have been killed over the past 5 years, including bombings(the favorite tool of the terrorist) and blockade, leading to a situation worse than warsaw of the 2nd world war. Are you able to connect the dots answer your question by yourself now, in terms of which religions are responsible for the most violence and killings? I haven't touched on the killings in Kashmir or Gaza. In your twisted view, praising of your enemy by a third party is means the person praising has an ulterior motive. The entire world is not composed of Adolf Hitler personalities. Some of them actually have morals.

P.S. Kafir, must you satisfy your employer through the rubbish and lies to please him/her in order to survive? I know the economy is not good, but isn't it better to actually earn your livelihood through productive work instead of satisfying your masters by lies and deceit? Or do you believe the master propagandist of the last century who said that if a lie is repeated enough times, it will taken as a fact?

FarnazMansouri,
Your explanation of the description between the judaic sacred scriptures is appreciated. As per your description, the talmud is an interpretation/commentary of jewish scripture which apparently can be done by more than one person who understands the scriptures in more than one way.
---------------------------
I'm not exactly sure what you mean. Let me begin by saying that the NT is not considered part of the Bible (Tanakh) by Jews.

On Tanakh, the oldest extent version dates back to 200 BCE. It is identical to all extant Tanakh transcribed and printed since then.

Torah (the Five Books of Moses) are identical to the oldest Torah scrolls. These date back to 700BCE. Torah scrolls are copied by scribes. It is an art form, a skill, often past down from one generation to the next. Errors can sometimes be corrected. If not, the scroll is tossed. If the name of God is involved, it MUST be tossed, regardless of the circumstances.

EVERy scroll is inspected by experts several times before it leaves the hands of the scribe. It has been this way for two thousand years, as far as we know.

They are very expensive, costing thousands of dollars. Sometimes, wealthy donors will contribute them to synagogues where money is short. They are always contributed to poor synagogues.

The Chumash is a printed (book form) of the Torah. It is identical to the scrolls.
------------------
The Bible is INTERNally interpretive.

The Talmud is a different matter altogether. It is very long, comprising the ORal Law, as redacted by Judah HaNasi, ca 200-220BCE, and the later Gamara. There was tremendous resistence to HaNasi's project for multiple reasons. Prior to HaNasi the oral law was transmitted orally from generation to generation going as far back as Moses, it was believed. With the barbarians in Eretz Israel, it was difficult to know whether this could continue. Hence, Judah HaNasi, it was agreed, would redact the Oral Law.

The Gemarra is commentary of various sorts, some of it legal, some of it in parables, some of it history, etc. It is a remarkable document, volumes long, even containing jokes. This is very cursory, as explanations go.

The Talmud is written Aramaic. The Tanakh in Hebrew, although it does contain a few Aramaic words.

I hope this clarifies a bit, at least. I will add this: Jews who move on to Talmud, especially, in the Aramaic, are not the majority. It is dense and very difficult. (I love it.)

Jihadist writes: "Extraordinary how often those who consistently and persistently accused individuals and groups of hatred are themselves full of hatred and no see it."

I ask you again, please tell us how many Muslims have been beheaded by ex-Muslims? Do you care to tell the good Kafirs here why is it Islamic law that Muslims are to kill ex-Muslims? Is there any ex-Muslim organisation that has called for the death of Muslims just because they are Muslims?

You consider the mere pointing out of the hate for non-Muslims in Islam as hatred for the Muslims? Islam's Sharia kills the apostates and you say that the mere fact that they say that Islam kills because it hates the Kafirs is hate for the Muslims. Ahhhh the magic of Islam on the human brain.

Notice that KoK1 does not address a single issue, but hides behind the quotes of others to justify the hate pervasive in Islam. The fashion of the Kafir intelligentsia to prove their liberal credentials by praising Muhammad and Islam is not as rampant as it used to be, but it is still there. However, the truth about Islam and its history is getting better known.

Here is an example of the great tradition of Islam that KoK1 is telling us (todays news):

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/8232511/Iraqi-Christians-killed-in-series-of-Baghdad-attacks.html

The worst attack was in the central Baghdad district of Al-Ghadir, where a homemade bomb exploded around 8pm (1700 GMT), killing the two Christians and wounding three others, including one Christian, an official from the ministry said.

Al-Ghadir is an area with a significant Christian population, though many have fled following the massacre and in light of threats by al-Qaeda to target them. The number of Christians left in Iraq is estimated at between 450,000 and 500,000, including around 300,000 Roman Catholics (down from 387,000 in 1980).

Between 800,000 and 1.2 million Christians lived in Iraq in 2003.

Iraq is still recovering from a massacre at a Baghdad cathedral in October. A group of Islamist extremists burst into the church of Our Lady of Salvation in Baghdad, murdering two priests, holding the congregation hostage and eventually killing more than 50 people.

************************

Is there one word of tens of millions of deaths of Kafirs by Islam's sword across globe in the paeans being quoted by KoK1?

KoK1 is seeking refuge in the praises heaped by others for their own reasons instead of addressing any real issue being pointed to him.

"The closer we examine this development the more extraordinary does it appear. The other great religions won their way slowly, by painful struggle and finally triumphed with the aid of powerful monarchs converted to the new faith. Christianity had its Constantine, Buddhism its Asoka, and Zoroastrianism its Cyrus, each lending to his chosen cult the mighty force of secular authority. Not so Islam. Arising in a desert land sparsely inhabited by a nomad race previously undistinguished in human annals, Islam sallied forth o¬n its great adventure with the slenderest human backing and against the heaviest material odds. Yet Islam triumphed with seemingly miraculous ease, and a couple of generations saw the Fiery Crescent borne victorious from the Pyrenees to the Himalayas and from the desert of Central Asia to the deserts of Central Africa."

--A.M.L. Stoddard, quoted in ISLAM - THE RELIGION OF ALL PROPHETS, Begum Bawani Waqf, Karachi, Pakistan, p. 56.

Kooky kafir and Adolf AbrahamAhab, Thomas Carlyle had this message for you:

"The lies (Western slander) which well-meaning zeal has heaped round this man (Muhammad) are disgraceful to ourselves only."

(From 'Heroes and Hero Worship and the Heroic in History,')

Except in your case, the zeal with which slander is delivered is a 1000 times greater than Goebbels in his prime

AKafir wrote:
It is equivalent to quoting the president of the US as saying "Islam is a religion of peace" while the "misguided and hijackers of Islam" keep trying their best to kill the Kafirs around the world.
----------------------------------------

The quotes are from individuals who who have attained in their lifetime what a kooky schizoid may achieve in a million years.

-----------------------------------

“In a World where people are surrounded by darkness, ignorance and fear, it is a sign of hope to be celebrating Islam's message of peace and light, and the last great Messenger, born and chosen to deliver them to all mankind.”
Yusuf Islam

The hate for the non-Muslim is what defines Islam.

*******************************************

Extraordinary how often those who consistently and persistently accused individuals and groups of hatred are themselves full of hatred and no see it.

Perhaps rationalising and justifying their blind and blanketed hatred even when they contend they are people of sanity and reason?

Jihadist writes: "Ahhhh....we have gotten to the sex and women part here in posts."

Jihadist from Malaysia should know. Jihadist claims to be a Malaya. The deeply racist Malaya with their institutionalised hatred for the non-Muslims have by law reserved special privileges for the Malaya who again by Malaysian law have to be muslim.

Of course the Malaysian Muslims can have four wives as Allah allowed and the second class humans, the Indian hindus and the chinese buddhists, of Malaysia have to support that and foot the bill to boot. The Muslim can marry any of the Kafir women who then must convert to Islam, but a Kafir man cannot marry a muslimah. If he does, he can forfeit his life, of course under the "civilized" Sharia.

Polygamy Club to encourage multiple wives: http://www.asiasentinel.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2258&Itemid=199

The example of Muhammad with 11 wives and still sneaking off to see Maria the copt slave is too alluring and too religious to resist. Cover the women up in body bags to ensure there is nothing but sex on the brain of the faithful! Ah the virtues of Islam, Allahs final message to Mankind!

Instead of dealing with the barbaric life of Muhammad directly, KoK1 resorts to quoting the presumed praises of Muhammad. Do these people claim to know Islam? No, they are trying to play the same card that ignorant non-Muslims play: say nice things about Islam in the hope that the muslims with their "sacred rage" will calm down and stop the killings.

It is equivalent to quoting the president of the US as saying "Islam is a religion of peace" while the "misguided and hijackers of Islam" keep trying their best to kill the Kafirs around the world.

It has never worked and it won't work. The hate for the non-Muslim is what defines Islam.

Ahhhh....we have gotten to the sex and women part here in posts.

I don't suppose during Rep. King's hearings, he will be asking on the sex lives of Muslims to find the root cause of terrorism.

Quran 66; 1, 2, 3, 4, that were earlier cited by AKafir tells a story that is beneath the scruples of a common man, let alone a so-called prophet.
Mohammad had promised his wife Aisha that he would not sleep with the beautiful Egyptian concubine, Maria. On the day when the Prophet of Allah was to spend his day with wife number 11,Hafsa, he sends her to her father’s house on a false claim. She came back prematurely and found him in bed with Maria. He tried to placate her and pleaded with her not to inform Aisha. She was mad enough to ignore his pleas and both her and Aisha had sharp exchanges with the Prophet of Allah. That same day Allah intervened on behalf of his favorite servant and sends the two women a threatening message.
This story had throughout history made adultrous men green with envy.

Thomas Carlyle in 'Heroes and Hero Worship and the Heroic in History,'
"The lies (Western slander) which well-meaning zeal has heaped round this man (Muhammad) are disgraceful to ourselves only."
"A silent great soul, one of that who cannot but be earnest. He was to kindle the world, the world’s Maker had ordered so."

Adolf Abraham wrote:
KOK pontificates thus:
“you will find that by every one of them (Mohammad’s wives) an alliance was made for his people, or something was gained for his followers, or the woman was in sore need of protection.”
Mere superficial and childish justifications! I could use such excuses to justify marrying half the women in the world.
----------------------------------------

AA, you have a bone to pick with Annie Besant. That was a quote from her.

KOK pontificates thus:
“you will find that by every one of them (Mohammad’s wives) an alliance was made for his people, or something was gained for his followers, or the woman was in sore need of protection.”
Mere superficial and childish justifications! I could use such excuses to justify marrying half the women in the world.

What from the above excuses justify the man to marry, for example, his daughter in law, Zainab, or Saffiyah and Juwairiah, the Jewish captives or Maria the concubine etc,etc.

As to Mohammad being faithful to his older first wife Khadija for 26 tears, well she was a very wealthy woman who hired him to work for her enterprise, and she no doubt controlled the purse strings. Nowadays we have a name for such characters. The minute she died he jumped into the marriage fray with the gusto of a hungry soul at a royal banquet.

The personality of Muhammad, it is most difficult to get into the whole truth of it. Only a glimpse of it I can catch. What a dramatic succession of picturesque scenes. There is Muhammad the Prophet. There is Muhammad the Warrior; Muhammad the Businessman; Muhammad the Statesman; Muhammad the Orator; Muhammad the Reformer; Muhammad the Refuge of Orphans; Muhammad the Protector of Slaves; Muhammad the Emancipator of Women; Muhammad the Judge; Muhammad the Saint. All in all these magnificent roles, in all these departments of human activities, he is alike a hero.
K. S. Ramakrishna Rao, in Muhammad the Prophet of Islam (1979)

Reverend Bosworth Smith in 'Muhammad and Muhammadanism,' London, 1874.

--------------------------------------
"Head of the State as well as the Church, he was Caesar and Pope in one; but he was Pope without the Pope's pretensions, and Caesar without the legions of Caesar, without a standing army, without a bodyguard, without a police force, without a fixed revenue. If ever a man ruled by a right divine, it was Muhammad, for he had all the powers without their supports. He cared not for the dressings of power. The simplicity of his private life was in keeping with his public life."
"In Mohammadanism every thing is different here. Instead of the shadowy and the mysterious, we have history....We know of the external history of Muhammad....while for his internal history after his mission had been proclaimed, we have a book absolutely unique in its origin, in its preservation....on the Substantial authority of which no one has ever been able to cast a serious doubt."

About the sex crazed nature of Muhammad, the muslims cannot keep their story straight. Keep in Mind that Koran is the last message of the last prophet by the creator of the entire Universe and here we have four whole verses spent on a "mystery". This is truly amusing so hold on.
Koran 66:1 to 4 read (This is from Allah in his final message to mankind)
066.001
YUSUFALI: O Prophet! Why holdest thou to be forbidden that which Allah has made lawful to thee? Thou seekest to please thy consorts. But Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
.002 YUSUFALI: Allah has already ordained for you, (O men), the dissolution of your oaths (in some cases): and Allah is your Protector, and He is Full of Knowledge and Wisdom.
.003 YUSUFALI: When the Prophet disclosed a matter in confidence to one of his consorts, and she then divulged it (to another), and Allah made it known to him, he confirmed part thereof and repudiated a part. Then when he told her thereof, she said, "Who told thee this? "He said, "He told me Who knows and is well-acquainted (with all things)."
.004 YUSUFALI: If ye two turn in repentance to Him, your hearts are indeed so inclined; But if ye back up each other against him, truly Allah is his Protector, and Gabriel, and (every) righteous one among those who believe,- and furthermore, the angels - will back (him) up.

Now what is Allah talking about here. Note in 66:002 Allah allows Muslims to break their Oaths so a promise or an oath by a Muslim means absolutely diddly squat. Why is Allah upset at Muhammad: "Why holdest thou to be forbidden that which Allah has made lawful to thee?" What is Muhammad holding forbidden which Allah has made lawful for Muhammad just to please his consorts? Not only that but Allah himself is warning two of Muhammad's consorts in 66:004 that if they support each other, the angels will back up the word of Muhammad. Digest that as part of the last message of the last prophet!!! Now what could possibly be upsetting the two consorts that Allah himself has to intervene?

It turns out that Muslims cannot get their story straight on this because some feel awfully ashamed about the affair.

One tale is given by Sahih Bukhari
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/043.sbt.html#003.043.648

"The Prophet did not go to his wives because of the secret which Hafsa had disclosed to 'Aisha, and he said that he would not go to his wives for one month as he was angry with them when Allah admonished him (for his oath that he would not approach Maria). When twenty-nine days had passed, the Prophet went to Aisha first of all."
In short, One consort had told the child bride of Muhammad that Muhammad had been sneaking off to "see" her maid (slave) Mariah the Copt.

The second story is believe it or not that the secret was that Muhammad drank some honey.

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/063.sbt.html#007.063.192

Adolf Abraham wrote:
How is Mohammad allowing his followers to marry four women and unlimited number of concubines and divorcing some or all for any reason or no reason by simply uttering short sentence would bring it the much-needed peace and happiness?
How allowing his followers to marry 9 year old children would contribute to the welfare of society? Mind you many of these above mentioned rules did not apply to him and his daughter: He kept eleven women at a time and refused to marry off his daughter before she was 18 and never allowed her husband to take a co wife

----------------------------------------

But do you mean to tell me that the man who in the full flush of youthful vigour, a young man of four and twenty [24], married a woman much his senior, and remained faithful to her for six and twenty years, at fifty years of age when the passions are dying married for lust and sexual passion? Not thus are men's lives to be judged. And you look at the women whom he married, you will find that by every one of them an alliance was made for his people, or something was gained for his followers, or the woman was in sore need of protection.
Annie Besant, The Life and Teachings of Muhammad (1932), p. 4

FarnazMansouri,
Your explanation of the description between the judaic sacred scriptures is appreciated. As per your description, the talmud is an interpretation/commentary of jewish scripture which apparently can be done by more than one person who understands the scriptures in more than one way.

As for the new testament, it is no secret that that the companions of Jesus are not unanimous in their description or understanding of the ministry of Jesus. The uniformity in christian thought came at a terrible cost to those who held alternate views of the understanding of Jesus's message, to name hypatia and Arius as one of few to have suffered for the uniformity of thought in christian dogma, which in current form is a combination of ancient Egyptian, jewish, Greek and Roman mythologies

Continued from below:

Four in 10 say the religion is “spiritually evil.”

- One in 3 says Islam “promotes charity.”

- Twenty-eight percent consider the religion “relevant today.”

Apparently Islam doesn't have intolerance cornered.
------------------------------
Quite so, although thankfully, expressions don't ordinarily involve Quran burning.
......................

Survey: Protestant Pastors View Islam with Suspicion


NASHVILLE, Tenn. – Protestant pastors in the U.S. have a negative view of Islam and more than half agree with Franklin Graham’s statement that Islam is an “evil” religion, according to a just-released study by LifeWay Research. More than 4 in 10 agree that Islam is dangerous and promotes violence.

Graham, son of Billy Graham, stirred controversy in 2001 by saying Islam is an “evil” religion. Recently, Graham called Islam offensive and wants Muslims to know Jesus died for their sins. In response, the U.S. Army yesterday rescinded an invitation to Graham to speak at a May 6 prayer service at the Pentagon, calling his comments “not appropriate.”

Most Protestant pastors, however, agree with Graham according to a telephone survey of 1,000 church leaders conducted March 1-9, 2010, before the current controversy.

The survey included questions about the differences between the religions, giving the respondents the opportunity to choose between positive and negative descriptors.

“When given the choice, they consistently chose the negative descriptions,” explained Ed Stetzer, president of LifeWay Research. “This should not surprise us – Protestant Christianity is, in a sense, a competing faith, and that comes through in the survey.”

Protestant pastors were asked which is closer to their beliefs: Graham’s widely reported comment that Islam is “a very evil and a very wicked religion,” or former President George W. Bush’s remark that “the Muslim faith is based upon peace and love and compassion.”

Forty-seven percent of the pastors surveyed believe Graham’s assessment of Islam is accurate, and an additional 12 percent agree with both Graham’s and Bush’s statements. Twenty-four percent agree with the former president’s statement only. The rest could not decide.

“This means a majority of Protestant pastors chose statements that agree with Franklin Graham’s statement,” Stetzer said. “Of those who chose only one statement, respondents agree with Graham over Bush at a 2-to-1 rate.

“Franklin Graham’s belief about Islam is a mainstream view among Protestant pastors.”
Additionally, those identifying themselves as evangelical are more than twice as likely to agree with Graham’s assessment of Islam.

Other findings:

- Three out of 4 pastors disagree with the statement, “Christians and Muslims pray to the same God” – 69 percent disagree strongly.

- Eighty-two percent say Islam is “fundamentally different from Christianity.”

- Forty-two percent agree that Islam “promotes violence.”

- Four in 10 say the religio

KOK wrote:

Every 3rd grader knows that there was controversy and differing views on the early christian canon, until the residual form seen today was shoved down with severe brutality, up to around 400 AD.

Regarding the torah, old testament and the talmud. I believe the fanatic FM is confusing the three whereas they should be viewed in combination.

Posted by: Kingofkings1 |
---------------------------------
I'm not confusing anything, and I'm clueless as to why you think I'm a fanatic. However, it would seem that you need to familiarize yourself with basic Judaic and Christian texts before you go any further.
The following is not intended to assist in that effort, which will be time consuming, should you decide to undertake it.

The "OT" (sic) is a somewhat mistranslated version of the Tanakh, more-so among the Catholics and Orthodox, who unlike the Protestants, still translate from the Septuagint, plus a couple of additional books which Jews consider Apocryphal (so do the Protestants, but they include them in their "OT"--Jews do not include them in Tanakh, and never have.)

The Tanakh refers to the entire Hebrew Bible, dating back thousands of years, with extant scrolls going back to the second century BCE.

The Torah is the first five books: the earliest Torah scroll dates back to 700BCE.

There was no corruption; this is not ideology or even theology. It is fact. Today's Torah scrolls (and chumash) look exactly like the ancient ones, still in existence throughout the millenia. The same is true for the Tanakh.

Talmud is another matter entirely. It refers to the Mishnah (220CE) redacted by Judah HaNasi and the Gamarra (500CE) and then there are the subsequent commentaries.
I have studied Bavli for many years, and think I know something about it.

Would be delighted to discuss....

Someone quoted Shaw as saying:
“I believe that if a man like him (Mohammad) were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much-needed peace and happiness.”

How is Mohammad allowing his followers to marry four women and unlimited number of concubines and divorcing some or all for any reason or no reason by simply uttering short sentence would bring it the much-needed peace and happiness?
How allowing his followers to marry 9 year old children would contribute to the welfare of society? Mind you many of these above mentioned rules did not apply to him and his daughter: He kept eleven women at a time and refused to marry off his daughter before she was 18 and never allowed her husband to take a co wife. How banning adoption does bring peace and happiness? How does inciting violence against the other factor in this utopia? This is but a sample of the problem solving rulings that made those who believe in him ecstatic with peace and happiness?

Apparently Islam doesn't have intolerance cornered. (My mother told me the same thing about dating Mormon girls. I wish I had listened to her so I wouldn't have married one.)

Jerusalem (CNN) -- A letter from about 30 prominent rabbis' wives was causing a stir in Israel Wednesday because it urges Israeli girls not to date Arabs.

The open letter comes three weeks after the uproar caused by another letter, which was written by 50 state-appointed rabbis and told Jews not to rent or sell property to non-Jews.

The latest missive, which was published by some websites and news outlets, says Arab men act polite around Jewish girls and "act as if they really care about you," but it says that's a ruse. The men, it says, even change their Arab names to Hebrew forms like Yossi and Ami in order to get close to the girls.

"This behavior is temporary," the letter says. "As soon as you are in their hands, in their villages under their control, everything becomes different. You can ask dozens of girls who have been there. They will tell you it is all an act.

"As soon as you arrive at the village, your life will never be the same. The attention will be replaced with curses, beatings, and humiliations. Even if you want to leave the village it will be much harder. They won't let you, they will chase you, they won't let you come back."

It urges Jewish girls not to go out with non-Jews or work in places that employ non-Jews.

"Your grandmothers never dreamt that their descendants would do something that will take the next generations of her family out of the Jewish people," it says.

The letter was initiated by the head of Lehava, an extreme right-wing group that says it aims to prevent the "assimilation of the Jewish people" and works at "saving Jewish girls from Arab villages."

"It's known that girls who go out with Arabs are beaten, these girls are in danger. ... There is a violent social trend and everyone ignores it," said the head of the group, Anat Gopstein, in a radio interview Wednesday morning.

Eboo Patel

You wrote, "Saying ugly, bigoted things about Islam is bad for the country (just like saying ugly, bigoted things about another religion or race or tradition is bad for the country)."

When I have pointed out that the god of islam has said, according to those that know islam better than me, that Jesus was a liar in claiming to be the Son of God, would this be an "ugly and bigoted thing about islam?

When the koran calls basically everything in the bible and Torah "corrupted" and someone points this out, is this "saying an ugly and bigoted thing about islam?

When someone points out wrongs done in the name of Christianity or done in the name of the god of islam or in the name of any "religion" is this saying "an ugly and bigoted thing"?

Should a "religion" be about what is "good or bad" for a country or about things concerning our relationship with God?

Jesus said to "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God" and "My Kingdom is not of this world", God did not become One of us in the Person of Jesus for us to set up a theocracy on earth and besides the fact that the god of islam calls Christianity a bunch of lies by Jesus and yet claims Jesus as his prophet, isn't the "goal" of islam world domination by the sword of man if need be?

Jesus spoke of the "Sword of Truth" whereas Muhammed spoke of the "sword of man" absolutely no comparison between these swords, is there?

You then wrote, "It gives the online radicals more stuff to put in their videos and write about in their magazines."

Are you saying that we should give up our "freedom of speech" to those that do not even believe in "freedom of speech"?

"Freedom of speech" is not the freedom to say only what others want to hear!

You then wrote, "Suggesting that mainstream American Muslims are part of the problem instead of part of the solution is both false and bad for the country."

There have been many stories around lately that may have been about "mainstream American Muslims", your phrase, is the story about taking over the swimming pool at certain times "for Muslims only" about "mainstream American Muslims" or is this about so-called "radical Muslims"?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

George Bernard Shaw praised Hitler as well. Why don't you listen Shaw for yourself:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQvsf2MUKRQ

Why would not a man like George Bernard Shaw not praise Muhammad?

Why do you need to bring up the words of Kafirs praising Muhammad? These days the life of Muhammad, the words of Muhammad, the Koran of Muhammad, etc. are all easily available and all online. People can read them and see for themselves.

KoK1 writes: "Oh what fun Goebbels had twisting and truning words on their head to prove his point! And he was doing that only to improve the lot of the jews."

Why don't you at least show where and how have I twisted and turned your words?

I make no bones about the fact that I am A Kafir. I consider Islam to be evil, and I show the American Kafirs the evil of Islam and how Islam hates non-Muslims and teaches the Muslims to treat the non-Muslims as less than human. It teaches them to oppress and subjugate the non-Muslims. Muslims have done that in their history, and Muslims have implemented that hate in their laws in every Muslim country, and they are doing that to the non-Muslims who are unfortunate enough to live in Muslim countries at present.

I ask the Kafirs and Muslims alike to read the Koran and the hadeeth and the life of Muhammad to see for themselves the hate that Islam teaches for the non-Muslims. It is important for the non-Muslims to know the canonical texts of Islam as they deal with Muslims and Islam around the world.

The medieval ecclesiastics, either through ignorance or bigotry, painted Muhammadanism in the darkest colours. They were in fact trained both to hate the man Muhammad and his religion. To them Muhammad was Anti-Christ. I have studied him — the wonderful man, and in my opinion far from being an Anti-Christ he must be called the Saviour of Humanity. I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much-needed peace and happiness.
o George Bernard Shaw, as quoted in The Genuine Islam, Singapore, Vol. 1, No. 8, 1936

KOK SAYS:
“Every 3rd grader knows that there was controversy and differing views on the early Christian canon, until the residual form seen today was shoved down with severe brutality, up to around 400 AD.”

He is apparently referring to the Council of Nicaea in the 4th Century when the Christian Church
had taken her first great step to define doctrine more precisely in response to a challenge from a heretical theology.
How is that related to the topic of so-called “Bible corruption”that is under discussion and which is claimed by Muslims?

RE Kafir:
Oh what fun Goebbels had twisting and truning words on their head to prove his point! And he was doing that only to improve the lot of the jews.

KoK1 had written on December 28, 2010 11:34 AM : "I consider it an offense to response to your postings, but I will do so in this case to point out your credibility."

At that point KoK1 was sure that I was manufacturing the claim that Muhammad said that the old man, his uncle, who had raised him, fed him, protected him, and helped him his entire life was going to get his brains boiled by Allah for eternity in hell.

Now that I have shown KoK1 that his Allah is really that sadistic, and I ask him to actually read the canonical texts of Islam for himself and to think for himself, KoK1 writes:

"Only a barbarian or an imbecile would say something as noted to invite others to accept his view and expect to succeed. No further commentary is necessary."

Succeed? What success could I possibly be seeking? That I wish you to be less ignorant? It is up to you whether you will think your monster is sadistic or not, but at least get the facts what the Koran and the hadeeth assert. At least educate yourself about what your Islam really is.

I really cannot bring myself to get excited about your calling me names and trying to insult me. I apologize for that.

FarnazMansouri wrote:
"One of the more interesting questions raised on this thread concerning the relationship of the Bible to the Quran is precisely what in the Bible became "corrupt," since there were always scribes up through and succeeding Muhammad."

------------------------------------------

Every 3rd grader knows that there was controversy and differing views on the early christian canon, until the residual form seen today was shoved down with severe brutality, up to around 400 AD.

Regarding the torah, old testament and the talmud. I believe the fanatic FM is confusing the three whereas they should be viewed in combination.

Kafir wrote:
"Start reading the canonical texts of Islam for yourself and see how barbaric and stupid they really are."

------------------------------------------

Only a barbarian or an imbecile would say something as noted to invite others to accept his view and expect to succeed. No further commentary is necessary

Kafir wrote:
Instead of blaming my 3rd grade teacher and my high school, why don't you tell me what is it that I have not understood?

-----------------------------------------
A logical person knows that when he puts on sunglasses, everything he views is going to appear darker than it is. When a racist or person with hate sees his object of hate(due to whatever reason, including selfish motives), everything to him appears darker than it is naturally. Welcome to the company of Pipes, Spencer, Rushdie, Manji, Hirsi Ali, Sultan, and some other wannabes. You will hear more of them thanks to the economic collapse. A quick buck is hard to pass up, although others would consider that penny-wise and pound foolish.

KoK1:

You had written: "Where do you get your hate-filled information from, Kafir?"

I showed you that the hate-filled information came from your Sahih hadeeth.

Instead of blaming my 3rd grade teacher and my high school, why don't you tell me what is it that I have not understood?

Do you think Abu Talib's brain should be boiled for Eternity? The information you have demonstrated about Islam means that you likely do not know that according to the ahadeeth not only are Muhammad's uncles in hell, but his mother Aminah bint Wahab and his father are in hell as well. Do you want me to dig those up for you as well?

Seriously, what kind of Allah do you worship that sends people like Abu Talib, Mother Teressa, Sister Pfau to hell?

Try answering that for yourself some time, or are you too terrified to even dare to think an independent thought when it comes to the nonsense of Islam?

Muslim children are taught all kinds of lies about Muhammad and Islam. Start reading the canonical texts of Islam for yourself and see how barbaric and stupid they really are.

AKafir wrote:
Abu Talib's kindness to Muhammad and to the Muslims will be repaid by having his brains boiled for eternity because on his deathbed he chose to stick with the faith of his father instead of accepting Muhammad as a prophet
--------------------------------------

Reading your postings boils my brain consistently, although I am not living in hell, despite you best atttempts, kafir. Your 3rd grade teacher did a bad job of helping you understand the concepts from written words. Whichever high school granted you a diploma should be boarded up.

Intensified drone strikes kill 18 in North Waziristan
http://www.dawn.com/2010/12/28/two-killed-in-north-waziristan-drone-strike.html

Anyone who expects a Muslim who reads this - or actually ANY decent human being of any faith - to respond to this with anything other than well-deserved rage and contempt directed at the US is an idiot.

The oldest Torah scroll currently in existence dates back to 700BCE and is identical to all extant scrolls and chumash (printed Torah). Then there are the Dead Sea Scrolls (2nd century BCE).

The Torah, indeed, the Tanakh, has never been corrupted.

About the Muslims’ oft made claim that the Bible was corrupted, if true it must have happened before or after Mohammad. If before Mohammad, we have copies of the books that date from the time of Christ in the First Century that was found in the caves at Qumran in 1947. They are on display at the Rockefeller museum in Jerusalem and copies of them are around the world. Let those who throw accusations around show us where the corruptions are.
If the corruption happened after Mohammad, but by then the whole bible had been distributed throughout the world and if there were any corruption, it could be easily documented. Unless the many Jewish sects as well as the many different Christian denomination throughout the world, including the heretics amongst them, had conspired and agreed between themselves to corrupt portions of their holy texts, and that obviously is impossible to accomplish.

One of the more interesting questions raised on this thread concerning the relationship of the Bible to the Quran is precisely what in the Bible became "corrupt," since there were always scribes up through and succeeding Muhammad.

This is quite true, and they continue up to today. Every authentic Torah scroll is handwritten, written by hand, by people who have trained in this work for years. Generally, they come from generations of scribes, tracing their roots back to the Middle Ages. Every letter, every mark must be perfect, since each is deemed to have a metaphysical value. Every scroll is checked and rechecked by others before it leaves the scribe's hands.

Thus it is and thus it has always been. So what became "corrupt," and when.

Still, no answer from those blogging here, I note....

Radicalization doesn't stem from this or that preacher
______________________
"Radicalization" stems from corrupt governments and armies, poverty, the spread and funding of islamist maddrasas by Saudi Arabia, psychotic propaganda spread by same--to name but a few factors.

Public beheadings of gays, stoning of "adulterers," bride-burning and the like--stems from?

Too much oil?

BloggsvillePakistan writes: "As I stated earlier:"

Why repeat?

Another view from Pakistan by a Pakistani:

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2010\01\02\story_2-1-2010_pg3_5

As I stated earlier:

"Radicalization doesn't stem from this or that preacher; it stems from a natural and logical reaction to the horrific oppressions of Obamassacres in Pakistan and Afghanistan, as well as similar activities by US supported zionists in Palestine."

The details of the article that I cited, quoted and linked lend full support to that view:

Intensified drone strikes kill 18 in North Waziristan
http://www.dawn.com/2010/12/28/two-killed-in-north-waziristan-drone-strike.html

From the same Newspaper that Bloggersville cites:

Now why would a terrorist group protected by the Pakistan State threaten India with terror?

http://www.dawn.com/2010/12/28/india-issues-nationwide-terror-alert.html

India increased security in major cities across the country Tuesday after receiving information that banned militant group Lashkar-i-Taiba was planning an attack over New Year’s weekend.
****************************
The common man in Pakistan is being killed but the ISI of Pakistan is sheltering the terror networks because they are a strategic asset of Pakistan. They will assist Pakistan in negotiating with Iran and India in Afghanistan is the official line. What the common man knows is that the Narco state where drug money runs deep cannot afford to take on the terrorists. Bloggersville does not want to mention any of that. But he does want the Kafirs in USA to feel guilty. No sale.

http://www.dawn.com/2010/12/28/victims-of-terror.html

The overall picture is frightening. In 2010, more than 1,500 Pakistanis were killed in terror attacks. If one assumes a minimum of 10 injured and 10 dependents for every terrorist act, the number of injured and dependents would be above 30,000. Given the fact that terrorists have been shedding innocent blood since 2007, the number of those in dire need of aid and rehabilitation must torment the nation. This also underscores the fact that the war on terror is Pakistan`s war, because no country has suffered more civilian and military casualties than Pakistan. The main victim is the common man.

BloggersvillePakistan writes:"Anyone who expects a Muslim who reads this - or actually ANY decent human being of any faith - to respond to this with anything other than well-deserved rage and contempt directed at the US is an idiot."

The pretend righteous anger is well past its due date. The double dealing, the lying, they cheating, and the feuadals ripping off pakistan is now well known. If you do not know then you are worse than the idiot you call others.

Pakistan has been using terrorism for the last 50 years as official state policy. It has engineering more or less a complete expulsion of pandits from Kashmir. It has massacred its own people in Balochistan. It kept the civil war in Afghanistan hot for over 30 years in search of an Islamic empire. So go exhibit your moronic rage to those who do not know Pakistan.

Pakistan is quite capable of taking out the terrorists on its territory. If it will not then others will. Pakistan has gotten the same message from China, India and Iran as well.

If Peter King wants to know the source of Muslim radicalization, just read this excerpt from today's news:

Local officials said that two missiles were fired at two suspected compounds at around 10am on Tuesday in Sherkhel area, an abandoned Afghan refugee camp in Ghulam Khan tehsil. Four people were killed.

The area people said that Kochis (Afghan nomads) lived in the compounds.

Local people were searching the place for survivors when the drone fired two missiles, killing four more people and injuring three others.

The names of the dead and wounded could not be ascertained.

In the third strike, a pickup truck carrying the wounded people from Ghulam Khan was targeted near another abandoned refugee camp called Nawab camp. Two missiles were fired in which four people were killed.

Sources said that two cars were heading towards the destroyed truck when the drone fired another volley of missiles, leaving another six people dead.

Intensified drone strikes kill 18 in North Waziristan
http://www.dawn.com/2010/12/28/two-killed-in-north-waziristan-drone-strike.html

Anyone who expects a Muslim who reads this - or actually ANY decent human being of any faith - to respond to this with anything other than well-deserved rage and contempt directed at the US is an idiot.

Radicalization doesn't stem from this or that preacher; it stems from a natural and logical reaction to the horrific oppressions of Obamassacres in Pakistan and Afghanistan, as well as similar activities by US supported zionists in Palestine.

It's really too bad that Representative King feels the need to hold these hearings about the radicalization of young muslims in first place.

If purported "muslim community" groups like CAIR, MPAC and ISNA spent a little less time whining about the non-existent "wave of islamophobia sweeping the U.S.", warning against the equally non-existant "violent backlash against muslims", and a little more time instituting programs of their own in mosques and islamic centers to prevent young muslims from embracing jihadist ideology, Rep. King wouldn't feel the need to do so.

Faisal Shahzad declared his status as a "muslim soldier" in open court, Nidal Hasan had it printed on his personal card; it's not us kafirs that are making the claim that their attacks where religiously motivated, rather it was the perpetrators themselves.

Mr. Patel can try to insinuate that Rep. King's call for hearings are based on bigotry all he wants too; the facts are that it is these "devout" muslims themselves claim religious justification for their actions.

Unfortunately for us all, until groups like CAIR, MPAC and ISNA take substantive steps to clean their own house and institute high-profile programs to prevent jihadist indoctrination, it will be left to individuals like Peter King to lead the way.

C'mon guys, take responsibility for your co-religionists, and end this.

Kok1:
Abu Talib's kindness to Muhammad and to the Muslims will be repaid by having his brains boiled for eternity because on his deathbed he chose to stick with the faith of his father instead of accepting Muhammad as a prophet. A good man acting out of his conscience, and the best one he could make with the brains his "creator" gave him, and for that your Allah will boil his brains for eternity, for ETERNITY!!!

This Allah knew before Abu Talib was even created that the 'soul' he is about to create will choose the religion of Abu Muttalib on his deathbed after a life of "righteousness", after taking care of an orphan, after supporting and providing for that orphan. And having done that, this Allah, then will boil his creations brains for eternity because Abu Talib chose his fathers faith on his deathbed when Allah had ordained that choice Himself before Abu Talib was even created.

And you worship this monster?

KoK1 writes: "Where do you get your hate-filled information from, Kafir? "

and then

"According to my information, Abu Talib, who was the uncle of prophet Muhammad and his protector from oppression of the haters of islam, neither accepted islam nor fought to extinguish it. The traditions which authentically refer back to prophet Muhammad through reliable sources, report that Abu Talib will be in hell but furthest apart from its punishments, where only his heels would feel the discomfort of the hellfire. Hell, I have suffered much more discomfort in the summer all over my body, as well as the discomfort of other extreme in the winter."

According to your information? Do you provide any references to your reliable authentic sources? I gave the reader a link so they can see what the muslim sources say themselves. I give it again:
http://en.islamtoday.net/node/1316
The answer is by Sheikh `Abd Allah al-Dumayjî.

And then there is the Sahih Bukhari ahadiath:

Volume 5, Book 58, Number 224:

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:

That he heard the Prophet when somebody mentioned his uncle (i.e. Abu Talib), saying, "Perhaps my intercession will be helpful to him on the Day of Resurrection so that he may be put in a shallow fire reaching only up to his ankles. His brain will boil from it."

It is not I who said that Abu Talib's brain will boil, but it was your Muhammad.

Now let us see your authentic references.

KoK1, I do not need to invent any hate talking about Islam. All one has to do is show the words of the Koran and the hadeeth. Islam hates the non-Muslims with a passion.

Think about an old man who protected your Muhammad all his life and supported him and provided for him. On his death bed he stuck to his ancestor's religion.
"O Abu Talib! Will you leave the religion of 'Abdul Muttalib?" So they kept on saying this to him so that the last statement he said to them (before he died) was: "I am on the religion of 'Abdul Muttalib."
and for that crime your Allah will boil his brains.

A Kafir wrote:
"According to you, the most righteous Kafirs will burn in hell because they have failed the central task of Allah. Abu Talib protected and supported Muhammad all his life, and for that Allah will ONLY boil his brains and not torture more like burning his skin repeatedly for infinity, or making him real thirsty and then only giving him molten metal to drink."

Where do you get your hate-filled information from, Kafir? Certainly Pipes and Spencer are too left leaning and not a good source of objective information about islam for you. Do you enjoy the attention, shock factor, or attain material benefits by telling some people what they want to hear?

I consider it an offense to response to your postings, but I will do so in this case to point out your credibility.

According to my information, Abu Talib, who was the uncle of prophet Muhammad and his protector from oppression of the haters of islam, neither accepted islam nor fought to extinguish it. The traditions which authentically refer back to prophet Muhammad through reliable sources, report that Abu Talib will be in hell but furthest apart from its punishments, where only his heels would feel the discomfort of the hellfire. Hell, I have suffered much more discomfort in the summer all over my body, as well as the discomfort of other extreme in the winter.

This is your characeristic Kafir: to make a mountain of a molehill, to please your benefactors and yourself. You sound very much like a local flasher in the ssupermarket who gets his thrills from shocking others.

As a side note, do you know what Jimmy Swaggart says about the destination of non-christians, or what Avigdor Lieberman says about the destination of non-jews?

My god, this windbag secular follows me from thread to thread. It is obsessed.

Carry on, but not here. You are an ignorant bloviator, and this thread, therefore, is not for you.

PACFI, no one is obsessed with you except your narcissistic self. As to the prisoners of conscience, India is not your beloved Shah's Iran, where your dad was one his Apparatchik. Speaking about bloviations and bloviators, you take the cake. Your reputation on that front is legendary, just as Avram's faith in his sky daddy, your favorite OT characters.

Atta Abdul Aal, an Egyptian journalist, predicts on al Rahma TV that that the USA is fast moving toward being a Muslim state and "shall soon be only second in importance to Muslim world to Mecca and Medina." The MEMRI video is posted on
www.islameyat.com/

I do not what is it about the USA that make failed societies that could not manage their internal affairs and whose populations are risking their lives to escape it to have such fantastic goals, unless they mistake American simple heartetdness to simple mindedness and also live in a fantasy world.

Peter King, as did his ideological forebears the Nazis in the case of the Jews, seeks to demonize Islam and the Muslims for partisan political advantage.

It was only last month that the Oklahoma Republican Party showed the way. To get out the Republican vote, they promoted an Islamophobic referendum to prohibit Islamic canon law. They knew that the cause was bogus, the adoption unconstitutional. But they also knew that it would animate their base to go to the polls. And so it did.

And how soon we forget how the "Ground Zero Mosque" non-controversy was used to ramp up Republican support in election year 2010. Now that it has served its purpose, the bashing of the "Ground Zero Mosque" will remain dormant until needed again a few months before the 2012 election.

Now Peter King wants to use his McCarthy-style hearings to establish a bloody drumbeat of bashing Islam and the Muslims for the same purpose of energizing Republicans in preparation for the 2012 election.

It's vitally important that Peter King be treated as the vile lowlife scum that he is. He may not have as his conscious goal the imprisonment of Muslims in concentration camps, but that is the inevitable consequence of his brand of hate.

Americans need to firmly renounce this "Peter King" and all his works and pomp.

American Islamic radicalization is a problem that is part of global Islamic radicalization, and that is a problem within, and peculiarto, Islam. Other religions currently avoid that problem. There is some problem within Islam causing that problem, and it needs to be fixed.

It is nomore bigoted to say that this problem is within contemporary Islamthan tosay that the evil Inquisition grew out of a corruption of Latin Christianity during the late Middle Ages, or that the witch hunts of the 16th and 17th centuries grew out of Protestant corruption. That neither Catholicism nor Protestantism currently foster such evils on any substantial scale is reason for optimism: a religion can grow out of such things. But that didn't happen within Christianity without the drastic religious, mental, social and political changes of the Enlightenment upon Christian societies. A similar soul searching may be required of Moslem societies to rid themselves and the rest of the Earth of the current plague of Islamic extremism. It won't do to identify some incidental and quirky traits of the small American fragment of Islamic radicalism.

One of the more interesting questions concerning the relationship of the Bible to the Quran is precisely what in the Bible became "corrupt," since there were always scribes up through and succeeding Muhammad.

This is quite true, and they continue up to today. Every authentic Torah scroll is handwritten, written by hand, by people who have trained in this work for years. Generally, they come from generations of scribes, tracing their roots back to the Middle Ages. Every letter, every mark must be perfect, since each is deemed to have a metaphysical value. Every scroll is checked and rechecked by others before it leaves the scribe's hands.

Thus it is and thus it has always been. So what became "corrupt," and when.

My god, this windbag secular follows me from thread to thread. It is obsessed.

Ah, well, since it has nothing better to do, poor thing, we'll just let it

Carry On.

Except for this--If you persist here, I will publish at length about the grain, the railroad, and Indian prisoners of conscience.

Carry on, but not here. You are an ignorant bloviator, and this thread, therefore, is not for you.

Carry on.

KoK1 writes: "Some haters are hopeless. I conclude by saying: grow by creating and helpinmg others to succeed, not by tearing others apart and denigrating them. There is a world of difference between the two."

That is exactly what the pagans of Mecca were saying to your Muhammad. Instead he destroyed their way of life and subjugated them to gain power. He toppled their faith and their beliefs and substituted it with pure hate which to this day is getting people to kill each other. More muslims have killed other muslims than any non-muslims in Islam's entire history.

Look who is denigrating. According to you, the most righteous Kafirs will burn in hell because they have failed the central task of Allah. Abu Talib protected and supported Muhammad all his life, and for that Allah will ONLY boil his brains and not torture more like burning his skin repeatedly for infinity, or making him real thirsty and then only giving him molten metal to drink.

Denigrating? Islam teaches nothing but pure and simple unadulterated hate for the non-Muslim.

Partition. I have yet to meet a Pakistani or Bangladeshi who thinks it an event that should have happened. As for me, I do not know....

PACFI you know nothing about most things in the world. The above statement betrays you for an ignoramus, that you are. We all, on this blog are quite aware that it won't stop you in mouthing off whatever notion that crosses from one ear, before it reaches the other ear. Whom have you been talking to. If your claim were true, there wouldn't be a Kashmir issue or for that matter any issues at all in the sub-continent. The fact of the matter is the population of pakistan has been fed on religious bigotry from their nurseries. So much so, when they meet their coreligionists from India they are shocked to realize that there is absolutely no religious persecution, despite the hogwash they have been fed. On one occasion I was talking an ex Pakistan High Commissioner to UK, who could not bring himself to acknowledge that Partition was a huge blunder in retrospect at least. So your claim is as hollows as all other claims of yours. Such as your claim that when your dear Grand Pa Avram took Ishmael to the hill to sacrifice him to the sky daddy at his demand,was somehow actually the sky daddy's way of banning human sacrifice, etc, etc.

I do know that many Bangladeshi people are literally starving to death, to death. And India and the railroad and the grain....

What is this nonsense? While Bangladesh was still part of greater Pakistan all the rail links were demolished. Since the independence of Bangladesh the constant swapping of power between Sheikh Hasina and Khaleda Zia any reestablishment have been stalled. Let me let you in on little secret Bangladesh is not a landlocked country like Switzerland so India cannot any shipments that are destined for Bangladesh. SO your oft repeated bogus claims are just that lot of hot air.

Some haters are hopeless. I conclude by saying: grow by creating and helpinmg others to succeed, not by tearing others apart and denigrating them. There is a world of difference between the two.

Hey Eboo,
Get a life.Is this all you do for living?You keep beating drums about Islam.Granted,you are a liberal muslim with roots in India,but why are you wasting your time[nay life] trying to defend the indefensible?We can keep parroting the politically correct line that Islam is a religion of peace.But its not.How long are you going to keep whitewashing the tenets of Islam that have poisoned the practice of this faith? Please read people like Rushdie,Manji,Bill Maher,Hirsi Ali....They are more profound in this day and age.

If any Catholic testifies, or is in the hearing room, will they remove the little boys?

I would not discount the revanchist spirit of the times--Macedonia, etc.

Thanks for the link. Here is one to an essay by Gabriele Nissim, the Italian journalist who writes on Eastern Europe. It focuses on Peshev, but includes much more.

http://web.ceu.hu/jewishstudies/pdf/02_nissim.pdf

Violence, like decency, filters down from the top. In Denmark and Bulgaria, the Christian citizens distinguished themselves not only in refraining from killing Jews with their bare hands, but in resisting the Nazi murderers. In these two cases, we see resistance at the national level, not the heroic act of a French Catholic or Dutch woman here and there.

Partition. I have yet to meet a Pakistani or Bangladeshi who thinks it an event that should have happened. As for me, I do not know....

I do know that many Bangladeshi people are literally starving to death, to death. And India and the railroad and the grain....

Violence filters down from the top. Once it is entrenched there, decent men and women can make few inroads. The number of MLKs and Ghandis are few and far between.

I recently learned that there was once a rule in Ottoman-ruled Bulgaria - no riding horses. Nobody was allowed to be taller than a Turk riding into town.
There were a few villages, Zheravna for example, where this rule was not applied ... for what reason I don't know.

King Boris knew that he had to ally with Germany or Russia in the conflict. The Russians fought with the Bulgarians against the Turks, freeing them from 500 years of that kind of Turkish rule ... but the Russians were a lot farther away than the Germans, and until Stalingrad it looked like the Russians weren't who they used to be.

Strangely enough the Ottoman Turks in Bulgaria had no particular hatred of the Jews, and having lived there for perhaps 2,000 years the Bulgarians must have assumed they were 'real' Bulgarians, with as much right to live and thrive as anybody in their country. During various anti-Jewish periods in Europe many Jews fled to Bulgaria.

King Boris told Ribbentrop that he needed the Jews to build the roads ... a simple lie, saved 50,000 lives.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/950652/The-Rescue-of-the-Bulgarian-Jews-during-World-War-II

"Do we see this kind of thing in some of the American Muslims, that father who turned in his son ... I don't know."

There are many many examples of this in history across the world. In 1947 over ten million people were uprooted and migrated to either Muslim Pakistan or Hindu India and nearly a million were butchered. In this mass insanity there are documented cases of good Muslims, good Sikhs, and good Hindus who went out of their way to help those in need regardless of the victim's professed religion.
In 1971 West Pakistani Muslims were killing by the tens of thousands hindus and bengali muslims in present Bangladesh. Again there are many documented cases of Muslims who at great personal risk stepped in to save hindus.

The people who chose to listen to their humanity and risked their own lives to save others was minuscule in both cases.

I live in Bulgaria, I am getting to know these people fairly well now. It doesn't seem to me that they felt any religious connection to the Jews, but they did feel these people were their countrymen, their fellows. (We talked about this before :).
--------------------------
Yes, I recall the chat. Denmark and Bulgaria represent two quite different cases. To me, one of the few things they had in common was a present monarch.

As you know, Bulgaria allied with Germany, fired up by the revanchist spirit of the times. It was Peshev, the Bulgarian Orthodox Church, and the king, who were the key players in refusing to cooperate in the Holocaust.

As for the Danes, they are, after all, Danes, still a fiercely independent people. They had a history of welcoming and successfully assimilating immigrants. A the time the Final Solution was to be implemented there, unrest had spread throughout Denmark, marked by labor strikes, sabotage, etc. I suspect the rescue was undertaken in that spirit.

I agree about the man who reported his son. It was the right thing to do all around. It saved many people, including that young man.

"The answer, I think, rests in modernity, but of the German students I've taught, few seem to know just how much guilt, hands on murderous guilt the Rumanian C's, Russians, Ukrainians, Poles, Croats, Latvians, Lithuanians bear in the atrocity."

And yet the Danes and the Bulgarians protected their Jews. I live in Bulgaria, I am getting to know these people fairly well now. It doesn't seem to me that they felt any religious connection to the Jews, but they did feel these people were their countrymen, their fellows. (We talked about this before :).

Not being particularly religious (just barely christian in my opinion), they had none of the 'normal' European christian hatred of the jews. They were outraged that some foreign motherfcker was going to tell them who could and could not live in their country. After 500 years of Ottoman oppression, they just weren't going to take it.

I don't know what motivated the Danes to do what they did, I don't know any people from Denmark. Over 99% percent of the Jews living in Denmark during WW II were saved from the naziis.

How is this kind of thing explained? Why only these two countries, what was it, what is it in their character that drove them to take this kind of chance to protect other people like this?

Do we see this kind of thing in some of the American Muslims, that father who turned in his son ... I don't know. I'm sure the American Christians will miss what this father has done for his country, as sure as I am that other Muslims will never forgive him for it.

What a world.

KoK1 writes: "Stick to the topic Kafir. If you ask someone their opinion and then ridicule their opinion, isn't that called entrapment, like what occured during the spanish inquisition, and more recently, Guantanamo?

Suppose an individual has been given by the CO an assignment to complete a specific task. The individual does not carry out the task with which he has been assigned, but performs a thousand other smaller tasks for which he has obtained rewards such as personal gratification and being known for one's kind acts (which is also a reward), is the CEO supposed to disregard the task with which the individual has been designated?

You are created for a reason, it is not to eat and drink as much as possible like a cow does. Find out that reason before it's too late"

KoK1, Entrapment does not meant that, and I have not the slightest why you mention the inquisition or Gitmo other than an attempt to score another point for being a victim.

I gave the link to Zakir Naik before I even asked you the question. Now read what you have written this time. Why cannot you say clearly that by your Islam Allah creates man to test whether he will worship Allah or not. That test is the purpose of man's creation, and since Terrasa and Pfau flunk that by committing Shirk they will flunk that test and hence end up in hell.

So you were being evasive. Your Allah is an ego maniac Bas***d. A creator who had created this infinite universe and perhaps infinite number of such infinite universes would likely not be so vengeful and petty that he dismisses the good just because someone worships him as a christian, or as a jew, or as a hindu, or as a sikh, or as an animist, or as a pagan, or a witch, or a wiccan, etc. All the good intentions and all the good best use of these good people's brain leads them to worship what they possibly cannot know or comprehend in the best way they can, and for this your Allah will burn them in Hell for eternity? Abu Talib will burn in the lowest Hell where only his brain will boil? Do you understand how ignorant and evil that claim is knowing what man now knows about the brain and man's limited ability to feel pain?
The allah you sell ... well to hell with such a monster really. Only a truly evil psyche like that of muhammad would have conjured up a monster like your allah.

Theism--I'll omit Stalin for obvious reasons.

How about the religionists' favorite whipping boy, the PRC?

Germany, today, is very interesting, yes. I do understand how it happened there, having studied it extensively. However, I agree that German Christians (cultural and observant) do not. The do understand nationalism, of course, but they ask, quite understandably, why it was them and not, say, the White Russians, who set in motion this barbarity.

The answer, I think, rests in modernity, but of the German students I've taught, few seem to know just how much guilt, hands on murderous guilt the Rumanian C's, Russians, Ukrainians, Poles, Croats, Latvians, Lithuanians bear in the atrocity.

Knowing the facts does not relieve these Germans, I find. They are interesting people. Bemoan the racism that persists and grows within their nation. Just as many Americans do here.

Theism, you say? Does not explain the horrors afoot in India.

Rep. King is looking for money from Muslims as he knows how close the Muslims are to the Bush Family and Wealthy Americans. Bush gave an office to the Saudi King's representative Bandar for 8 years. The Saudi King just has surgry in the same New York hospital that treated Osama Bin Laden yet King isn't talking about that. Faith is again being used for personal gain and political reasons. It really sad that this conduct has become common with Republicans and Tea Party groups.

Hitler was able to take a civilized people and turn them into mass murdering monsters, with ideas, with beliefs, with delusions.

I live in Europe now, I know a fairly large number of Germans, many friends. They don't seem so much ashamed of their country's past as shocked that it could happen to them. That's my take on it anyway. They have a cultural shame they willingly take part in, but the utter shock of it seems to be of more concern to them.

There must be something of the True Believer in almost everybody for that kind of thing to happen. Maybe it was a survival trait during our tribal past ... I don't know.

Because theistic religions rely so much on the ridiculous being accepted as true, it resists with all its might knowledge which makes the swallowing of the Big Lie more difficult.

Generally you never hear complaints about astrology or numerology, or bigfoot theology. Most people know it's nonsense, but what the hell, it's harmless.

But astrology believers never gather together in large masses and vote against science, vote against knowledge, vote against research; vote *for* religious wars and religious oppression, make demands that their politicians pander to their delusions -- thus creating an entire political class whose only real talent is lying.

We'll either free ourselves of religion, or we'll be freed of it when it destroys us. It's hard to see it any other way.

It is what Hitler called the Big Lie.
---------------
Hitler had several big lies, but one thing for certain, he was a Catholic. He stayed true to the metaphysics of Christianity throughout his sorry life, and it was partly for that reason that he was able to influence so many.

As for the "original sin" doctrine of the Christians, it is incomprehensible to me, best understood as inherent in Christian essentialism and a self-forgiving morality which I do not share.

What makes religion so dangerous in the minds of many is, I suspect, is its ability, at least theoretically to cut across other identity borders. However, within Islam, racism exists just as surely as it does among Christians, Jews, Hindus, etc.

Further, as we now know for certain from WikiLeaks (some guessed as much), Saudi Arabia and Egypt led a group of nations, among them Bahrain, UAE, Qatar, Syria, Lebanon, and Yemen, in petitioning the US either to bomb Iran itself, or, if that proved unviable, to manipulate Israel into doing it. Nations.

And, of course, Christian nations have fought one another for centuries.

I think you have something here, though, but it's slippery.

I think that's more what people call enculturation. I suppose religions infection might ride along with enculturation in most cases, but how much plain delusion is involved with enculturation?

That your nation, race, gender is better than all the others ... you know, that American Exceptionalism that was making the rounds recently ... how many countries and how many cultures don't say the same thing for themselves?

Religion involves a profound delusion, certainly the theistic religions do. Long training is involved. I like the christian trinity BS as a good example. It isn't logically consistent with any wording that can be produced in any language. It is training for how to swallow crap. It is what Hitler called the Big Lie.

It does other interesting things too, what Eric Hoffer describes as inflicting the malady then offering the only cure. We're all guilty for what all of our ancestors back to Adam has done, we're all guilty of not only our own sins but our ancestor's sins as well. We don't have a chance.

This is the part I really don't get. Why do the christians forgive their god for this nonsense? We're guilty for what adam and others did, people we had no influence over, and yet their god who created us bears no responsibility whatsoever for these same sins.

I just don't get that. Marvelous training in Big Lie theology. If you can't eat that sht without question, the rest of it is easy.

eezmamata:

INteresting. However, there are many kinds of infection are there not: politics, "race," ethnicity, social class, nation. And so forth.

Tribalism and idols of the tribe(s)

That's a good point Farnaz, and it was a tongue-in-cheek question anyway.

My point basically is that the christians here in our country are not going to be able to understand how to deal with the religiosity of the murderous muslims until they understand the religiosity of the muslims who don't want to murder .. and before that they're going to have to understand how religion is propagated from one mind to the other, from without to within.

They have to understand the basic nature of human religiosity, period. But that will cause major problems for many of them. It will draw the curtain on their own beliefs, and seeing the unclothed ugly little man pulling their own strings will likely destroy their own ability to believe it.

They aren't going to take that chance. Some part of these religiously infected people still knows how to think, the infection knows how to protect itself.

This problem King wants to solve will never be solved, that's my point.

So how about that, Peter King, why not investigate how religion poisons the human mind, not just how the muslim religion poisons it. I mean, if you really want know how to stop it.

Posted by: eezmamata
---------------------------
Unlikely, since he is a devout Catholic, much praised in his life by the RCC.

Doesn't the word Jew refers to those of the tribe of Judah, one of the twelve tribes of ancient Israel?

Well, the tribe of judah descended from the man named judah. He was one of Jacob’s twelve sons.
Jacob was one of Isaac’s two sons.
Isaac was one of Abraham’s two sons.

Abraham was, therefore, Judah’s great-grandfather. He was not a Jew, but was rather one of their ancestors, and should appropriately be called a Hebrew.

Since the jews were around a l-o-n-g time before anybody ever heard of christians or muslims, and Abraham wasn't even a jew ... well, what kind of stupid question was that?

What was Abraham a Jew nor a Christian, but he is a Muslim

If Peter King and his bunch were to instead investigate the path of the infection through the brain ... that is to say, how does religion infect a normally sane mind? Are there periods in the human life where the mind/brain is more susceptible to infection?

Much as language is best absorbed during the ages 4-9 for example, is there an 'enreligiation' period? Certainly religious parents are careful to see their children infected with the same pathogen as infects them.

Though it doesn't always take, not directly of course. Later converts to islam from christianity for example, or vice versa - were they infected with religiosity rather than a particular religion itself, only to discover in late adolescence or early adulthood that the religion of their parents did not fulfill the addictive religious needs infecting them during this phase?

How many religious believers are just social believers, and of them - how many are on the verge of fanaticism anyway? Would they in a different environment, say during the period of soviet communism in russia - would they be fanatic communists, naziis ... nationalists, would they be fanatic believers in a political religion?

True Believers of any kind are diseased. The more fervent the belief, the more dangerous the believer, the more willing to die and kill they are for their belief, the more resistant they are to reality.

So how about that, Peter King, why not investigate how religion poisons the human mind, not just how the muslim religion poisons it. I mean, if you really want know how to stop it.

Peter King’s Muslim hearings will help by providing public discussion for all Americans to better understand national security instead of Obama’s denying and “glossing over” ignoring the reality of terrorist threats and plots and attacks as 9/11, al-Qaeda, Taliban

Who can justify terrorists’ activities as reported in Rome, Greece, Netherlands, Stockholm and UK Britain? Suicide, car and mail bombers attack and threaten to attack like snakes hidden then striking with sudden, indiscriminate death on helpless victims. Fewer disgruntled political or nationalistic hate groups claim religious reasons to intimidate with terror attacks and kill perceived enemies. The Christmas message is to love your enemies and pray for them.

American Muslims of the Islam faith should denounce jihad terrorist attacks and explain that most Muslims of the Islam faith are against violence and practice tolerance of other religions. Christmas celebrates the holy night that Christ was born in Bethlehem.

It is unfortunate that Islam is associated with radical Islamic terrorist who attacked the U.S. and proclaimed that their enemy infidels are Americans of the U.S. Western civilization. Religions are known by the people who profess them.

It is unfortunate when terrorist political groups use the religion of Islam to unite ethnic groups and people of Muslim Arab origin in extreme prejudice against people of the Western civilizations to justify their terrorist plots and attacks.

Muslims, Catholics, Jews and Evangelicals - what a lovely puss filled stew of hatred they make together fighting over "my-god-is-better-than-your-god" and "your-people-are-worse-than-my-people".

Abraham was the original Satan.

A Kafir wrote:
"A typical Islamic evasive answer when a muslim is talking to the Kafirs. Now listen to a muslim talking to other muslims".

Stick to the topic Kafir. If you ask someone their opinion and then ridicule their opinion, isn't that called entrapment, like what occured during the spanish inquisition, and more recently, Guantanamo?

Suppose an individual has been given by the CO an assignment to complete a specific task. The individual does not carry out the task with which he has been assigned, but performs a thousand other smaller tasks for which he has obtained rewards such as personal gratification and being known for one's kind acts (which is also a reward), is the CEO supposed to disregard the task with which the individual has been designated?

You are created for a reason, it is not to eat and drink as much as possible like a cow does. Find out that reason before it's too late

Kingofkings1,

Semi-literacy is a dangerous thing. Daniel Pipes and Peter King do not belong in the same sentence together.

Unlike, eg., Hariri and Mubarak. Or Mubarak, Feisal, KOK, and KKK.

You've got Peter King on you. You are his twin, but you're on his territory now.

Bye.

Will he?

Will he denounce his "Holy" Church hiding pervert priests?

Will the war mongering spawn of Abraham ever learn to play well together?

FarnazMansouri wrote:
"Your only hope in this is Jews". In the same sentence, the minimally-cultured lady used the word "bigotry". Unlike you, Farnaz Mansouri, and Peter King and Daniel Pipes, I have the jews and the muslims and the hindus as well as any other groups placed in a visual bell-shaped distribution: 5% are very good, 5% are very bad, and the rest are in between. I can see from your postings where you should be placed in the 3 categories along with Peter king.

Welcome Siddiqui Malik. I have read your blog, and I hope a lot more Muslims in America join you in your opinions.

KoK1 writes: "Finally, in regards to Kafir's question about Mother Theresa's candidacy for entering heaven, it is my belief that since God is the Judge who must decide who passes and fails based on the evidence, it doesn't matter at all what I think, even if I characterized her as a saint"

A typical Islamic evasive answer when a muslim is talking to the Kafirs. Now listen to a muslim talking to other muslims:

Zakir Naik:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbSUkq5ePew

Then Sahih Muslim, Book of Faith, Vol. 1, hadeeth 240:

The prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, said, "I swear by the One who holds my life in His Hands (Allah) there is none amongst the Jews and Christians who hears about me and then dies without believing in the message with which I have been sent (monotheism of Islam - believing Allah is One and we must submit ourselves to His Will on earth), except he will be of the people of the Fire (Hell).

Allah in the Koran:
"Inna allatheena kafaroo lan tughniya AAanhum amwaluhum wala aw laduhum mina Allahi shay-an wa olaaa-ika as-habun-nari-hum feeha khalidoon."
(Surely, those who reject Faith (disbelieve in Allah and in Muhammad, peace be upon him), neither their properties, nor their offspring will benefit them anything against Allah. They are the dwellers of the Fire, therein they will live forever.)
[Surah Al Imran 3:116, tafseer At-Tabari, Vol. 4, Page 58]

Then we have the case of Muhammad's uncle who protected him in Mecca all his life and raised the orphan. He refused to convert to Islam and stuck to the faith of his ancestors. Read what is in store for him according to Muslims:

http://en.islamtoday.net/node/1316

The Prophet’s uncle, the father of `Ali b. Abi Tâlib, will remain in the Fire and will not enter Paradise. However, he will receive a lighter punishment . The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “My intercession may help him (Abû Tâlib) on the day of Judgment. He will be in a small fire that will cause his brain to boil.” [Sahîh al-Bukhârî and Sahîh Muslim] This is the least chastisement in the Fire. The reduction of punishment for him is not because of his close relationship to the Prophet (peace be upon him), but because he used to protect the Prophet (peace be upon him) along with the other Muslims at the time they were suffering greatly at the hands the unbelievers in Mecca. Nevertheless, since he had died as an unbeliever he will never enter Paradise. Abû Tâlib had been granted a very special and unique intersession from the Prophet (peace be upon him). However, not even this intercession will emancipate him from Hell. It would only minimize his punishment, though his punishment would be eternal. No one may enter Paradise but a believing soul and no disbeliever will ever depart from the Fire.

Who in his right mind can have the slightest respect for such barbarism?

Mr. Patel,

why don't you write an article about how the christian communities of the middle east are being decimated ?
Do the organziations in which you are an active member have anything to say about it?

At any rate the elephant in the romm is once again that there is no separation of mosque and state in Islam. There probably shouldn't be given that Muhammed was a divinely sanctioned ruler of a polity with governmental responsibilities - raising taxes, army for defense and offense, etc.
How then can there be separation of the two? There cannot be and that is ultimately the problem for Islam as the interpenetration of islam and modernity proceeds. Unless this fundamental issue can be addressed, none of the rest really matters.

So said Dahmer as he chased his gullible victim through his apartment, and proceeded with his despicable finale in a gleeful manner.

The evilness of the woman is truly astounding.
______________________________
Thus spaketh the semiliterate Ramses, idoalter-muslim.

Adolf forgets on his way to deposit bodies in the crematoria, the mullah synagogue bombers of Tunisia, Syria, Egypt, Iraq, Iran, Israel.

Not to mention the thieves. Not to mention the murderers. Not to mention the car-bombers. Not to mention, but will, at a moment's notice.

Bloody Imams aren't confined to the US alone. Neither are bloody ayatollahs. Not confined to the US, Europe, Africa, alone.

The "evilness" [sic] of this "muslim (idolater) individual."

KOK, you've got Peter King on you. I wonder if you know with whom you are dealing.

Your only hope in this is Jews. But, I suspect, even they have had it with Islamic American bigotry at this point. I really do suspect this. Even I am growing weary.

And yes, Mr. Patel, I am a proud Muslim, and a proud American. Go ahead, make my day: call me an apostate. Many of your fellow propagandists have beaten you to it.
Siddique Malik, Louisville, Kentucky.

---------------------------------------

Welcome to the Rushdie - Hirsi Ali - Manji club. It's a lucrative market at present. You will enjoy the worldly perks.

When a group of Israeli settlers broke the windows of a mosque built without a license the whole pack of “senior clerics’ from across the world got roused up and have not settled down yet
------------------------------------

AbrahamAhab,
You conveniently left out the shooting in Palestinian territory by a rabbi in which he targeted his American supplied machine gun and gunned down dozens of worshippers in a mosque as they were in prostration. I hear the rabbi's grave is a venerated site at present.

There is real evil in this man. Real evil.

----------------------------------------

So said Dahmer as he chased his gullible victim through his apartment, and proceeded with his despicable finale in a gleeful manner.

The evilness of the woman is truly astounding.

There we go, again. A Muslim is already scared of these hearings, and has started to plant ideas and stories in minds that might get involved with the hearings. Look at Mr. Patel’s suggestion to Rep. King that King should declare that “I will not stand for bigoted things to be said about a great religion and an American community." Should everything that will be said be pre-cleared by Mr. Patel? That’s exactly what the problem is among Muslims. They just cannot tolerate free speech, hence their never-ending quandaries. Please stop making utterly inaccurate statements that none of the Muslim parents in America brainwash their children into adopting rigidity. Many do, and Mr. Patel knows that. Rigidity is the mother of all hate-related crimes, and terrorism is an advanced stage of hatred of diversity. Mr. Patel is a propagandist-apologist for rigid Muslim parents; with whom America’s Muslim community -- especially immigrant Muslim community -- is replete. Politically correct Washington Post is happy to be his tool in this propaganda. I am generally not a Republican supporter, but I admire Rep. King for his courage to ditch political correctness. Truth needs to be spoken with full force. Nobody is interested in saying bad things about Islam – no fair person would that. But saying truthful things about bad Muslim parents is not being disrespectful to “a great religion.” They are the ones who are disrespectful to Islam, and society continues to suffer because of their dereliction in raising their children as good citizens. And yes, Mr. Patel, I am a proud Muslim, and a proud American. Go ahead, make my day: call me an apostate. Many of your fellow propagandists have beaten you to it.

Siddique Malik, Louisville, Kentucky.

www.courier-journal.com/muslimblog

There we go, again. A Muslim is already scared of these hearings, and has started to plant ideas and stories in minds that might get involved with the hearings. Look at Mr. Patel’s suggestion to Rep. King that King should declare that “I will not stand for bigoted things to be said about a great religion and an American community." Should everything that will be said be pre-cleared by Mr. Patel? That’s exactly what the problem is among Muslims. They just cannot tolerate free speech, hence their never-ending quandaries. Please stop making utterly inaccurate statements that none of the Muslim parents in America brainwash their children into adopting rigidity. Many do, and Mr. Patel knows that. Rigidity is the mother of all hate-related crimes, and terrorism is an advanced stage of hatred of diversity. Mr. Patel is a propagandist-apologist for rigid Muslim parents; with whom America’s Muslim community -- especially immigrant Muslim community -- is replete. Politically correct Washington Post is happy to be his tool in this propaganda. I am generally not a Republican supporter, but I admire Rep. King for his courage to ditch political correctness. Truth needs to be spoken with full force. Nobody is interested in saying bad things about Islam – no fair person would that. But saying truthful things about bad Muslim parents is not being disrespectful to “a great religion.” They are the ones who are disrespectful to Islam, and society continues to suffer because of their dereliction in raising their children as good citizens. And yes, Mr. Patel, I am a proud Muslim, and a proud American. Go ahead, make my day: call me an apostate. Many of your fellow propagandists have beaten you to it.
Siddique Malik. Louisville, Kentucky.
www.courier-journal.com/muslimblog

It seems to me that hearings on US Muslims should dovetail with immigration hearings in general. The vast majority of immigrants coming to the US are from countries that hate the US, which is why Democrats like them so much. At best, immigrants become citizens with dual loyalties, but in the case of Muslims, they clearly pledge their loyalty to fellow Muslims over American citizens of different faith. And a scary 10% condone terrorism to impose Sharia Law on everyone.

On this blog, King of King's only enemy is King of King's.

Good luck to you, Ramses.

Ozymandias

I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said: "Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown
And wrinkled lip and sneer of cold command
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed.
And on the pedestal these words appear:
`My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!'
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away".

--Shelley

Additionally, I don't appreciate Farnazmansouri's projections of her thoughts onto myself. I have never assumed that the majority of denigrating responses are from jewish individuals, much less relayed that to the other participants.
----------------------------
A truly sad lie from this self-proclaimed "muslim individual."

There is real evil in this man. Real evil.

Finally, humiliating the symbols others hold as sacred or nonsacred symbols others hold in esteem, in my view, is the mark of an individual who has sunk to the lowest depths - and with whom I have no intention of associating in any manner or responding to thier provocations.

Posted by: Kingofkings1
-------------------------------
Quite agree. Suggest you revisit the reading list you recommended and climb up out of the depths.

YOU CAN DO THIS. Respect for the beliefs of others begins with YOU. ONly with you, and with no one else.

Eboo says:
“The American Muslim community has been a strong partner in changing the views of potential extremists or disrupting their dangerous actions.”

Have you ever heard a cleric anywhere issue a fatwa (edict) to blaspheme a Jihadi terrorist? Or at least pay lip service condemning the atrocities carried against Christian worshippers in their churches? When a group of Israeli settlers broke the windows of a mosque built without a license the whole pack of “senior clerics’ from across the world got roused up and have not settled down yet. When the Copts of Egypt bought a ramshackle building in Shubra neighborhood of Cairo that was used for prostitution and drug sale and refurbished it and used it for a bible study house, the whole neighborhood got riled up and surrounded the place and tried to burn it down with all its occupants. The representative of that district in the Egyptian parliament who is also a member of the ruling party went on TV to justify the closing down of the house and arresting its occupants by charging that” the occupants were caught in the act praying”. As if this is a treacherous crime against the state.

King's actions are despicable and inconsistent with the founders' vision, and for which the great majority of individuals have migrated to US over the past 2 centuries. This is my take on this article.

I do not wish to engage in personal attacks. Asking for peace in the middle east is going to be an unrealistic goal if we cannot even achieve peace on this blog with a less than dozen regular participants.

Additionally, I don't appreciate Farnazmansouri's projections of her thoughts onto myself. I have never assumed that the majority of denigrating responses are from jewish individuals, much less relayed that to the other participants.

Finally, humiliating the symbols others hold as sacred or nonsacred symbols others hold in esteem, in my view, is the mark of an individual who has sunk to the lowest depths - and with whom I have no intention of associating in any manner or responding to thier provocations.

"Mainstream American Muslims have been vigilant against extremists in their communities - confronting their views, flushing them out and if need be reporting them to law enforcement."

What a load of utter twaddle. There is a precious mosque in Falls Church, full of wonderful little Islamists, that does not follow these most laudable sentiments. All Muslims should be arrested.

Conflict resolution is best done among two parties who meet at the table knowing that they have differences but have mutual respect for each other and do not loathe the other or the other's character or the other's present or past (FarnazMansouri)
---------------------------------
This is an old, tired rhetorical ploy, so bone-weary in fact that I'm beginning to doubt the intelligence I'd hitherto attributed to KOK.

The other, for him, cest moi. As is the case on this thread, he immediately assumes that those whose positions differ from his are "jews" (sic), and that they are, therefore, by definition, suspect, if not vile.

When his errors are pointed out to him, when he learns that his correspondents are not "jews" (sic), he ignores the information, continuing on in his unfortunate ways.

He would like peace to start with me, but it has. As I posted earlier, I teach in Pakistan at least once very two years and I raised an enormous amount in aid for that country following the horrific flood. I could go on.

KOK believes it is all fine and good for him to say whatever he wishes about Islamic victimhood, but the victimization of others by Muslims cannot be addressed. To bring it up is to vilify the "other," notwithstanding that the "other" in the ME is Jews, Christians, et al, and that those in power are Muslims.

When I post on how sick I am of the violence, offer the brilliant quotation of Naim, he is silent.

The Otherer of all Otherers, he puffs himself up with self-righteousness, refusing ever to engage in honest dialogue.

Armstrong is a dilettante with zero credibility among scholars. That is a fact. However, KOK does not wish to deal in facts, either about lightweight best-selling "theologettes" or about anything else.

Until this changes, there can be no discussion, only conflict.

Let the peace begin with KOK.

It seems that most individuals on this blog love to denigrate the other in order to prove their point ( as exemplified by AbrahamAhab).

Conflict resolution is best done among two parties who meet at the table knowing that they have differences but have mutual respect for each other and do not loathe the other or the other's character or the other's present or past (FarnazMansouri)

And again, just because an individual with schizophrenic tendencies knows how to shock and rile his adversary does not mean that one has to return that favor because the indidual also enjoys receiving negative attention (Kafir)

I know I have not addressed all individuals on the blog, but if you happen to be one with an open mind, I appreciate your opinion and contribution

In regards to Karen Armstrong, she has led an exemplary life which makes her highly qualified to comment on theological matters. I cannot say the same for her critics as cited in earlier posting. I invite you to read her tremendous life ecperiences and insights with an open mind.

Just as an aside - for those of you who enjoy hurling and receiving insults, I heard there is a eatery in New York City in which customers pay to be hurled insults by the employees and the customers may do the same to the employees. I encourage those with such needs as I described above to visit this type of an establishment.

Finally, in regards to Kafir's question about Mother Theresa's candidacy for entering heaven, it is my belief that since God is the Judge who must decide who passes and fails based on the evidence, it doesn't matter at all what I think, even if I characterized her as a saint

KoK1,
Why not trying to answer some simple questions being put to you? Here is a very simple one. Answer it honestly.

Do YOU think Mother Teresa or Sister Pfau, both catholic and hence both believers in the Trinity, an obvious Shirk, will be denied entry to heaven according to Islam?

You should be able to answer that honestly.

Didn't want to get into the Armstrong business, but the serious don't think her serious, on anything(because she isn't). Gives new meaning to the word "lightweight," and should consider replacing writing with another pastime, say, house painting.

"Karen Armstrong - one of the very gifted individuals at present with an extremely high knowledge in theological matters"

Karen does not have high knowledge of anything. She sells among the Muslims because she lies.

http://www.newenglishreview.org/custpage.cfm?frm=7158&sec_id=7158

History is putty in her hands, we said earlier. But the word putty does not do her infantile approach to history justice. History is for Karen Armstrong not so much putty as Playdoh. She can roll it about, she can pull it apart, she can twist and turn it with the same delight exhibited by a two-year-old when a-too-solid block of Playdoh is finally softened up for use by grown-up hands. But the two-year-old is an innocent at play, and even if he leaves a momentary mess, he has done no real harm. Karen Armstrong is not innocent, and manages to do a great deal of harm, careless or premeditated harm, to history. Too many people read that she has written a few books, and assume, on the basis of nothing, that “she must know what she is talking about” – and some of the nonsense sticks.

or

rightly earning her criticism from various historians including; Dr. Alfred Andrea,[2] Dr. James Powell,[3] Dr. Thomas Madden,[4] and the Israeli historian Efraim Karsh,[5] head of Mediterranean Studies at King's College London. who comments:
"Ms. Armstrong goes out of her way to whitewash Muhammad's extermination of the Jewish presence in Medina, especially the beheading of the entire 600 to 800 male population of the Qurayzah tribe. "The Qurayzah were not killed on religious or racial ground," she claims, adding that "Muhammad had no ideological quarrel with the Jewish people." This is of course a travesty of the truth."[6]

Similar views are espoused by historian Dr. Thomas Madden. Commenting on one of Karen's books, he says:

"Poorly researched and written, this book is largely an exercise in modern left-wing rhetoric about sensitivity, tolerance, and the evils of Western civilization. Her “triple vision” is blurred by a misguided approach to Islam and Judaism and outright hostility to Catholicism."[8]

****************************

Westerners did get into the habit of denigrating their own culture and civilisation and Karen Armstrong is a prime example of that self hate. I think all the beheadings and suicide bombings by the Mohammadans has cured many many in the west, but there are quite a few hold out yet. They still consider hating themselves as a sign of "enlightened liberalism". Fortunately there are less and less of such morons.

Aye, fight! But not your neighbor. Fight rather all the things that cause you and your neighbor to fight.

-- Mikhail Naim

Kok says:
“For those who (wish) to purchase the life of this world at the expense of the greater meaning of life: you are sadly mistaken. Enjoy!!!!”

Translated this means if a man believes in the teachings of Mohammad he would enjoy an afterlife that will have plenty of what was missing in the deserts of 7th Century Arabia; rivers of wine and honey and a continual and everlasting orgy with countless number of 30 old virgin beauties.
What a deal!!

Peace, if it hever occurs in the middle east, is going to require reassessment of some basic ideas held by the warring factions in relation to historical facts and not innuendo. Let it begin with you.

Posted by: Kingofkings1
-----------------------------
Peace in the Middle East will require reassessment, but much more than that. The antisemitic filth purveyors Saudi ARabia, Ebypt, Iran, etc., will have to mend their ways. This they cannot do since their "governments" use antisemitism, anti-Christianism, anti-Hinduism, etc., to distract the masses from the reality of their oppression.

A reassessment would mean return for us exiled three million Jews, restoration of our property etc., not to mention the same for Christians, et al.

A reassessment might be a start but it will take far more than that. I'm not going to get into a battle with you about Quorayza. Maybe, one day, I'll give you a link to an article I published in an academic journal. Armstrong never responded.

The past is the present. Let the peace begin with you. Thus far, most of what you write is antisemitic, and, frankly, I'm not even sure you believe what you write.

How could anyone writing on this thread assume that the other threaders are Jews? I am the only Jew who currently blogs at this site, OnFaith.

I'd think about that and what you're rage says about you.

Let it begin with you.

I'm sick of the hate, and the killing, and raping, and starving of ALL PEOPLES.

It has begun with me. I raised funds for Pakistan in staggering amounts. I teach there at least once every two years.

LEt it begin with you.

FarnazMansouri,
In response to Quoraiza, Karen Armstrong - one of the very gifted individuals at present with an extremely high knowledge in theological matters has written a very insightful explanation of the quoraiza events and the attempt by some individuals to perpetually drive a wedge between the jews and muslims. Try to keep an open mind and search for the truth behind the smoke created by those who have a vested interest in perpetual conflict.
Peace, if it hever occurs in the middle east, is going to require reassessment of some basic ideas held by the warring factions in relation to historical facts and not innuendo. Let it begin with you.

RE: hatred and extreme hatred

Just because a schizophrenic is able to formulate a method of communication to shock and elicit an intended reaction, does not mean a sane individual is obliged to react.

For those who to purchase the life of this world at the expense of the greater meaning of life: you are sadly mistaken. Enjoy!!!!

Of course, religion of peace wise, I haven't yet gotten to massacres of Jews in Hebron (August 1929), Jerusalem (February 1948), and Kfar Etzion (May 1948), the tip of the iceberg in Muslim mass murder of Jews, and I mean the tip. A romp through the fifties, sixties, etc., until a few months ago will nearly catch us up.

There we shall see not only pogroms but public hangings and the like, as well as deportations, forced exiles, theft, etc., leading to the exile of three million Middle East Jews, not to mention a couple of million Christians, Hindus, B'hai, Muslims.

The links I posted are two among many I could have. Somalia gets bloodier by the day. And then there are the Somalian would-be terrorists in Holland.

The religion of peace seeks to make the world a warsaw ghetto. But the ROP should be aware that a handful of starving Jews held out against the Nazis for longer than than the nation of France.

Jes' sayin'

Religion of peace. Very peaceful.

KOK, purge your heart of your racism and hatred and then get back to us. We Kafirs don't die that easy. And wanting to destroy us is not good for the soul. Take a walk, read a book, enjoy the beauty of this world.

Get to know Jews, Christians, Hindus--make them your friends.

Happy new year to you and your family.

The love of Islam is so strong and pure that Muslims are prohibited from even praying to Allah that he forgive the righteous Non-Muslims after their death.

http://www.yanabi.com/forum/PrintTopic94310.aspx

The very very moderate and good and kind American Muslim Sheik Hamza Yusuf refuted such calumny attributed to him :
**********************
By Imran. - 03.03.2006 22:44:42
Originally posted by: Shahban Ahmed Aziz

Assalamualaikum,I honestly do not want to cause confusion or argument but I heard from someone that Sheikh Hamza Yusuf said all innocents who died in 9/11 went to Jannah? Did he say these comments etc and where is the Islamic Justification or ruling on it?Wassalam,Shahban

Assalaam Alailkum!
No he didnt! What happened was that he was asked by a non muslim interviewer about what a martyr is in islam,and he responded by saying words which meant that if there were, it would be the people giving their lives to save others e.g.firefighters. Basically he gave an example of a type of martyrdom,he
did not say the firemen would go to heaven.
I heard that interview myself, he did not say what you write.

**********************************

What a marvellous Creator we have. He knows before he creates what his creation will choose and if he chooses to be a non-Muslim then no matter how righteous he or she is, she will be tortured in Hell. Given that the overwhelming majority of humans have always been non-Muslims, this all knowing and all powerful Creator in Islam, has been creating humans knowing full well that the majority of them will be tortured in Hell for eternity. And they don't really have a choice because Allah knew what they will choose before they were even created.

Nice? And KoK1 wants us to worship this sadistic monster. Well I decided that I would rather burn in hell willingly than give into such a monster. I hope I am able to moon the SOB while he burns my skin off again and again for eternity and pours molten metal down my gullet. I hope I retain my fingers to be able to flip the Bas***d for eternity.

Kok1:
Mother Terassa is going to Hell according to your Islam.

Take a look at this lady in Pakistan:
http://www.dawn.com/2010/12/25/pakistan%E2%80%99s-%E2%80%98mother-teresa%E2%80%99-on-floods-frontline.html

It is the beginning of another long day for the 81-year-old nun known locally as Pakistan’s Mother Teresa, who has spent half a century caring for some of the country’s poorest and most ostracised people.

Sister Pfau is going to hell as well according to your Islam.

Can you tell what you think of your Allah who will send people like Terassa and Pfau to hell because they would not accept your Muhammad as a prophet?

Is Zakir Naik and many many others wrong who quote the same verses of the Quran to state that these old women deserve to burn in hell.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbSUkq5ePew

Can you recognize blind hate when you see it? Read your Koran and see if you can spot it.

Kingkong preaches to me thus;

“Abrahamahab1, here is something to help you to get to know yourself a little better:” and list a number of Old Testament verses that incite violence. How is that supposed to help me know myself better? If anything those incitements were directed at my Canaanite ancestors. They were exhortations by Hebrew prophets to conquer Caanan who they believe, and your Quran confirms, was deeded to them by Allah. It was a one time historical conflict that was ended 3500 years ago and not a standing command for perpetual wars against those who do not believe in the prophet hood of Mohammad.

Farnaz Mansouri,
In response to Quroaiza:
1948 mass terror and the more recent killings in Palestine
Sabra and Shatilla
The modern warsaw ghetto in gaza,
and the recent state terror and mass killings in Gaza
The Turkish flotilla massacre
Avigdor Lieberman

A very nice record of peace indeed

RE: Peace on earth.
Let it begin with you.

Stop calling people names and belittling them, because they won't die the way you like them to die.

Lots of haters here. No names necessary. Can't you guys find a better topic?
if you were living in 1482 Spain, I bet the climax of your week would have been to go to the town square to see some humans burned alive for admitting to something the torturers wanted to hear.

Posted by: Kingofkings1
-------------------------------
The victim card has ever been played by the oppressor, in this case you.

Peace on earth did begin with me. I'm not Quorayza.

I won't die easy. Stop trying to kill me. Stop vilifying me. Stop your Jew-hating and Jew-bating ways.

Do not defend the indefensible. Religion of peace?

SHOW ME.

RE: Peace on earth.
Let it begin with you.

Stop calling people names and belittling them, because they won't die the way you like them to die.

Lots of haters here. No names necessary. Can't you guys find a better topic?
if you were living in 1482 Spain, I bet the climax of your week would have been to go to the town square to see some humans burned alive for admitting to something the torturers wanted to hear.

Who hates?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/25/AR2010122500339.html?hpid=moreheadlines

Who hates?

http://onfaith.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/guestvoices/2010/12/will_there_be_christmas_in_iraq.html#more

In taking a look at this board, KOK, I see one Jew, others of other faiths, and one Jew-hater, you.

To question Jamaat e Islami is not to be a hater of Islam or Muslims, but to be a lover of both. You would not know that because you are a bigot and do not care how many people die because of that Hashem forsaken party.

You are one of them, and you are an antisemite.

Try another way:

I know that my Redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand upon the earth. Job 19:25

Know therefore that the Lord your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commands. Deuteronomy 7:9

The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life. Job 33:4

The Lord bless you and keep you; the Lord make his face shine upon you and be gracious to you; The Lord turn his face toward you and give you peace. Numbers 6:25-26

Peace on earth, KOK.

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.MADE in AMERICA for S.pace S.hip EARTH.
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By: "JJ" http://onwapo.wordpress.com

Abrahamahab1, here is something to help you to get to know yourself a little better:

"Take all the heads of the people
and hang them up before the Lord
against the sun.” -- Numbers 25:4
“...for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God”
-Deut 5:9
*"For our God is a consuming fire!"
-- Hebrews 12:29
* “He cast upon them the
fierceness of his anger, wrath,
and indignation, and trouble,
by sending evil angels among them.
” Psalms 78:49
* “Behold, the day of the
Lord cometh, cruel both with
wrath and fierce anger...”
-- Isaiah 13:9
* “The Lord is a man of War!”
Exodus 15:3
“As it is written, Jacob have I loved,
but Esau have I hated.” --Romans 9:13
"...They shall fall by the sword:
their infants shall be dashed in
pieces, and their women with child
(pregnant) shall be ripped up!"
-- Hosea 13:16
"... at midnight the Lord smote
all the first born in the land of
Egypt, from the first born of the
pharaoh... unto the first born of
the captive that was in the dungeon;
and all the first born cattle"
-- Exodus 12:29
“I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord
do all these things.”
-- Isaiah 45:7
"Their children shall be dashed
to pieces before their eyes!
There houses spoiled, and their
wives raped...Dash the young men
to pieces...have no pity on the
fruit of the womb, the children
shall not be spared"
-- Isa 13:16-18
“Happy shall he be, that taketh
and dasheth thy little ones against
the stones.” --Psalms 137:9
“And he went up from thence unto Bethel:
and as he was going up by the way,
there came forth little children
out of the city, and mocked him,
and said unto him, Go up, thou
bald head; go up, thou bald head.
And he turned back, and looked on
them, and cursed them in the name
of the Lord. And there came forth
two she bears out of the wood, and
tare forty and two children of them.”
-- 2kings2:23-24
“Moreover of the children of
the strangers that do sojourn
among you, of them shall ye buy,
and of their families that are
with you, which they begat in
your land: and they shall be
your possession. And ye shall
take them as an inheritance for
your children after you, to
inherit them for a possession;
they shall be your bondmen for
ever:” -- Lev. 25:45-46

Regarding Racism and hatred of the other and the others' religion:

Take this board as a cross sectional sample, and it is a good one. Look closely at how many christians, jews, and atheists have maligned islam in these few messages. Look again and see how many muslims have maligned their haters' religion or the founders of their religion. Let an objective recorder calculate the score. This is representative of society in general.

Islam teaches its adherents to invite others to the religion of God in a non-threatening and respectful manner, without maligning the entities that others hold sacred. Can you say the same for Jerry Falwell, Avigdor Lieberman, and the speech in 2006 in Germany by pope Benedict, and yourself?

PS, FarnazMansouri has got it wrong. I have no hatred for anyone. I do dislike the behavior of some individuals, especially of the abrasive nature

KOK says:
“If (religion) impure, it too is due to be replaced, for we cannot imagine a loving God leaving us astray.”

But we are told by Muslim scriptures that humans are mere puppets, who play a role subscribed to them by Allah before creation and recorded in a tablet somewhere in heaven.
"No calamity occurs; no affliction comes, except by the decision and preordainment of Allah." [Qur'an 64:11].
I am confident that the aforementioned person, like most of his ilk, are not aware of the contradictions in their 7th Century manual.

KoK1 writes: "So don't trust me—trust our Creator. Read the Qur'an; read books and study this website. But whatever you do, get started, take it seriously, and pray for our Creator to guide you.
Your life may not depend on it, but your soul most definitely does."

I have read the Koran, and I do take it very very seriously. Have you? Why does your Allah knowingly create the majority of humans to be condemned to be tortured in Hell? The majority of mankind has always been non-Muslims. You were citing Mother Terrasa the other day, and your Mullah Zakir Naik says she is going to hell because that is what the Koran says.

Maybe those who do not know Islam as well as I do may give your post a second glance. You claim the scriptures of the Jews and the Christians are corrupted. Here is a challenge for you. State for yourself when were they corrupted and in what way. Go ahead state a corruption unambiguously. Now copies of those scriptures are available from well before the time of Muhammad, and very close to the time of the claimed revelations. Show where have Muslims ever shown that these scriptures have been corrupted in any manner at all.

There are so many errors in the Koran that only a mindless believer can possibly take it to be the word of an all knowing deity. Allah cannot even get the simply biology of procreation right. Which fluid drop comes rushing out from between the spine and the ribs from which man is created according to your allah?

And because you and other muslims are psychologically and intellectually incapable of seeing the simple idiocy in a 7th century manual, you feel compelled to support the killers and haters of non-Muslims around the world! Is that what you are telling the people to follow?

As a gentile, KOK, you are only required to follow the Noachide Code, the universal code for human, which includes Thou Shalt not Steal. Start there.

Do not concern yourself with Moshe (Moshe Rabeinu). He is too advanced for you.

Of course, Quoran dishonors the prophets, makes a mess of their lives (peace be upon them--the phrase is originally ancient Hebrew), particularly of Moshe (Moshe Rabeinu), but one ignores it. It's horrible.

Judaism answers the big questions of life. Perhaps, that is the reason that Islam is so indebted to it, the reason that Moses is the prophet about which the Quoran has most to say. Like Judaism, Islam is not a creedal religion, but a way of life. As all major Muslim scholars have said, Islam is far closer to Judaism than it is to Christianity.
And they are correct.

Judaism, however, is not insecure and does not seek converts, although it welcomes those who choose to become Jews.

KOK, try to purge your heart of racist hatred, and get back to us. Right now, you are not a good spokesperson for your belief. Muslim Jew haters never are.

(Cont'd)
Muslims consider this final revelation to be the Holy Qur'an. You consider it … worth looking into. So let us return to the title of this article: Why Islam? Why should we believe that Islam is the religion of truth, the religion that possesses the pure and final revelation?
Oh, just trust me.
Now, how many times have you heard that line? A famous comedian used to joke that people of different cities cuss one another out in different ways. In Chicago, they cuss a person out this way, in Los Angeles they cuss a person out that way, but in New York they just say, "Trust me."
So don't trust me—trust our Creator. Read the Qur'an; read books and study this website. But whatever you do, get started, take it seriously, and pray for our Creator to guide you.
Your life may not depend on it, but your soul most definitely does.
Copyright © 2007 Laurence B. Brown.
The author can be contacted at BrownL38@yahoo.com. He is the author of The First and Final Commandment (Amana Publications) and Bearing True Witness (Dar-us-Salam). Forthcoming books are a historical thriller, The Eighth Scroll, and a second edition of The First and Final Commandment, rewritten and divided into MisGod'ed and its sequel, God'ed.
Posted from: http://www.leveltruth.org/articles.asp
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Here is information for haters:
http://www.grandestrategy.com/2009/09/why-islam.html

by Laurence Brown
Let's talk frankly. Almost never do non-Muslims study Islam until they have first exhausted the religions of their exposure. Only after they have grown dissatisfied with the religions familiar to them, meaning Judaism, Christianity and all the fashionable "-isms"—Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism (and, as my young daughter once added, "tourism")—do they consider Islam.
Perhaps other religions do not answer the big questions of life, such as "Who made us?" and "Why are we here?" Perhaps other religions do not reconcile the injustices of life with a fair and just Creator. Perhaps we find hypocrisy in the clergy, untenable tenets of faith in the canon, or corruption in the scripture. Whatever the reason, we perceive shortcomings in the religions of our exposure, and look elsewhere. And the ultimate "elsewhere" is Islam.
Now, Muslims would not like to hear me say that Islam is the "ultimate elsewhere." But it is. Despite the fact that Muslims comprise one-fourth to one-fifth of the world's population, non-Muslim media smears Islam with such horrible slanders that few non-Muslims view the religion in a positive light. Hence, it is normally the last religion seekers investigate.
Another problem is that by the time non-Muslims examine Islam, other religions have typically heightened their skepticism: If every "God-given" scripture we have ever seen is corrupt, how can the Islamic scripture be different? If charlatans have manipulated religions to suit their desires, how can we imagine the same not to have happened with Islam?
The answer can be given in a few lines, but takes books to explain. The short answer is this: There is a God. He is fair and just, and He wants us to achieve the reward of paradise. However, God has placed us in this worldly life as a test, to weed out the worthy from the unworthy. And we will be lost if left to our own devices. Why? Because we don't know what He wants from us. We can't navigate the twists and turns of this life without His guidance, and hence, He has given us guidance in the form of revelation.
Sure, previous religions have been corrupted, and that is why we have a chain of revelation. Ask yourself: why would God send another revelation if the preceding scriptures were still pure? Only if preceding scriptures were corrupted would God need to send another revelation, to keep mankind on the straight path of His design.
So we should expect preceding scriptures to be corrupted, and we should expect the final revelation to be pure and unadulterated. If impure, it too is due to be replaced, for we cannot imagine a loving God leaving us astray. What we can imagine is God giving us a scripture, and men corrupting it; God giving us another scripture, and men corrupting it again … and again, and again. Until God sends a final revelation He promises to preserve until the end of time.
(cont'd)

Torquemada is relevant how? According to Miranda Vasquez, his maternal grandmother converted from Islam.

And Khomeini, Shah, wife-killer Zardari, beheading House of Saud? MUslim persecutors all, not to mention Jamaati e Islami, from what did they convert?

Stated differently, but at the level of the "issue," who gives a FF?

Frankly, I don't care whether or not Casas was a converso, himself, although the arguments are surely flattering.

What difference does it make? What matters is that he saw light where before he had been in moral night.

Jamaat e Islami, however, has not seen light.

Eboo?

The Muslims KoK1 and Asizk cannot bring themselves to address the hatred that Islam has for the Non-Muslims. They insist on lying and playing the victim as did their prophet Muhammad. Playing the victim is deeply embedded in the psychology of the Muslims because of the lies of Muhammad.

KoK1 cites Torquemada as one of the persecuting majority "(even if it is against their own group) such as Torquemada". Now all that can be said of the Grand inquisitor is "Torquemada appears to have had Jewish ancestry: the contemporary historian Hernando del Pulgar, writing of Torquemada's uncle Juan de Torquemada, said that his ancestor Alvar Fernández de Torquemada had married a first-generation Jewish conversa (convert). Del Pulgar was a converso himself. Also, according to biographer Thomas Hope's book, Torquemada, Torquemada's grandmother was a conversa."

So KoK1 shows the symptomatic anti-Semitism that is pervasive among Islam because Allah's favorite hate is for the Jews. One drop of jewish blood is enough for some one to be a Jew? So his grandmother was a convert and he is a Jew? How revolting! How despicable!

Which muslim is not a convert from some non-Muslim? How many generations away is KoK1 from the najjas non-muslims? Is that why he hates them passionately as commanded by his allah?

KOK,

Spanish Catholics have adduced evidence that Bartolomeo de las Casas was a converso, but, again, I'm not convinced, a converso from Judaism, that is.

Goat a suggestion. Stop persecuting us and we'll all be fine.

And quit using bromides. You're too intelligent for that.

KOK,

I thought you were referring to Torqemada, who was reported to have been a convert from Islam. Will try to scan in the referent.

Isabella and Ferdinand--I don't know where you dig up this Krap.

Columbus may in fact have been Jewish--there is much more evidence of this, but still it is sketchy, IMO.

Beware of taking one opinion as fact. Jamaat e Islami is a fact and a bloody one, bloody as hell.

If Eboo is a member of an organization that supports these murderers, and it appears he is, I'd like to know about it. Really, I would.

FarnazMansouri wrote:

with another notable historical figure being the individual most responsible for the cruelties inflicted on jews during the spanish inquisition reported to have been himself a former jew.
Posted by: Kingofkings1 | December 24, 2010 1:10 AM
----------------------------
He was reported to have been a former muslim.

-------------------------------------------

I would have expected you, FarnazMansouri, to be aware of the above, since you have exhibited awareness of historical facts in the past. I cite the link below for your information and perusal, as well as for others with the main message being: "Beware of those individuals too lazy to work and instead take the easy way out by joining in the persecution by the majority" (even if it is against their own group) such as Torquemada, Rushdie, Manji, Hirsi Ali, Kafir, Arif, among others.

In conclusion, we study the past in order to understand the present and predict the future

http://vlib.iue.it/carrie/texts/carrie_books/longhurst2/04.html

Eboo,

Jamaat e Islami got hold of a female friend's mobile number, left obscene messages on it, and I mean filthy, threatened her and her family. She is a professor.

Eboo?

Eboo,

Jamaat e Islami killed my friend Ahsan's grandfather during the war with Pakistan.

Well, Eboo?

Eboo,

Jamaat e Islami is responsible for the murder of a dear friend's nephew.

What do you have to say?

A word on Doggy Azisk's racism. None of the bloggers here is Jewish, save for me, and my concern is with Eboo's apparent membership in an organization that strongly supports Jamaat e Islami.

Doggy Azisk is encouraged to get ts doggy mom to use google to look up Jamaat e Islami and to explain it it.

Doggy has the word "indigenous," courtesy of me. It refers to the 85,000 indigenous peoples of Indonesia whom the Muslims have not yet slaughtered. Doggy Azisk is not to worry, however, since his co-Muslims are still at murdering INdonesia's indigenes.

The indigenous peoples of Israel are, of course, the Jews, whose land is still under Muslim occupation, for the most part. True the genocidal Muhammad killed many of them and many of the pagans, but not all.

Back to peeing in the yard now, Doggy Azisk. Lesson over.

King says nothing about his pervert priests but had a lot to say about Michael Jackson

Michael Jackson
On July 5, 2009, shortly after the death of Michael Jackson, King made a video statement calling the late entertainer a "child molester". He also chided the media for its coverage of Jackson's death:
“ Let’s knock out the psychobabble. He was a pervert, a child molester, he was a pedophile. And to be giving this much coverage to him, day in and day out, what does it say about us as a country? I just think we’re too politically correct. No one wants to stand up and say we don’t need Michael Jackson. He died, he had some talent, fine. There’s men and women dying every day in Afghanistan. Let’s give them the credit they deserve.[24]

(this and my previous post from Wikipedia)

Peter King is a vile Donohue Catholic theocon: Anti-Islam comments
In 2004, King claimed in an interview with conservative talk radio host Sean Hannity that "no American Muslim leaders are cooperating in the war on terror," and that "80-85 percent of mosques in this country are controlled by Islamic fundamentalists. . . . I'll stand by that number of 85 percent. This is an enemy living amongst us."[15] The Council on American-Islamic Relations denounced the comments as "Islamophobic bigotry" and Democratic National Committee chairman Terry McAuliffe called on President George W. Bush to "condemn this latest example of hate-filled language."[15]
In a September 2007 interview with the website Politico.com, King said that "There are too many mosques in this country... There are too many people sympathetic to radical Islam. We should be looking at them more carefully and finding out how we can infiltrate them."[16] A few days later, King said that he had been misquoted:
“ The quote was taken entirely out of context by Politico. My position in this interview, as it has been for many years, is that too many mosques in this country do not cooperate with law enforcement. Unfortunately, Politico was incapable of making this distinction.[16]
”
Support for the IRA
In the 1980s, King frequently traveled to Northern Ireland to meet with IRA members.[12] In 1982, speaking at a pro-IRA rally in Nassau County, New York, King said: “We must pledge ourselves to support those brave men and women who this very moment are carrying forth the struggle against British imperialism in the streets of Belfast and Derry.”[12][17] He called the IRA "the legitimate voice of occupied Ireland."[18] A Northern Irish judge ordered King ejected from the former's courtroom, describing him as “an obvious collaborator with the IRA”.[12] He became involved with NORAID, an organization that the British, Irish and US governments accuse of financing IRA activities and providing them with weapons.[12][19][20][21] He was banned from appearing on British TV for his pro IRA views and refusing to condemn IRA activity in the UK.[12]
In 2000, he called then-presidential candidate George W. Bush a tool of "anti-Catholic bigoted forces," after Bush visited Bob Jones University in South Carolina, "an institution that is notorious in Ireland for awarding an honorary doctorate to Northern Ireland's tempestuous Protestant leader, Ian Paisley."[12]
He stopped supporting the IRA after being offended by Irish public opposition to the invasion of Iraq,[12] labelling it as begrudgery rather than suspicion of and opposition to the war. That same year, however, King told a reporter that "'we shouldn't rush to be too sanctimonious' about the murder of Robert McCartney in a Belfast pub."[18]

Ebo,
Excellent article. Just don't pay any attention to the usual dogs barking loud-it is just barking-they don't see the big log in their eyes and want to distarct from 'israeli' occupation,oppression,racism, apartheid and murder of the idigenous PAlestinain People.

Jihadist writes: "King's hearings would go down well with Christian conservatives and Tea Partyists of a certain ilk who conflated liberalism with socialism with Islam as threats to America."

The moderate Muslimah, Jihadist, from the moderate Muslim country of Malaysia has not a single word to say about her own country's systematic oppression of Kafirs, but feels compelled to belly ache about Americans trying to determine the complexity of Islam publicly as a "war on Islam".
America is not at war with Islam. It is Islam that is at war with modernity and with the non-Muslims for the last 1440 years. As YasserYousufi correctly points out that Muslims are killing far more other muslims than they are killing the Kafirs. America has been dragged into the Civil War raging in Islam, and it needs to understand how to deal with the situation. Listening to the lies of the so called Moderates like Eboo is certainly not the way.

Arif2,

Jamati Islami is, indeed, all over Pakistan, throughout the universities, along with Taliban and Taliban sympathizers.

I know academics who have been threatened and harassed by them. And all this was done by the corrupt and incompetent Zardari, for reasons known only to his incompetent and corrupt self.

The question raised here however his what Eboo is doing as a member of an organization that apparently supports them strongly.

EBOO, please explain. If we misunderstand, let us know.

Muslims wherever they immigrate or reside are "American Muslims", "British Muslims", "French Muslims"... This is what distinguishes them and their host countries, in other words muslims can never make good citizens.

The only good Muslim is a bad one.

They can never be Americans or British or German, they are Muslims. I used to work for the Jamaat-i-Islami, their ideology is spread of Islam through any means, violence is always prefered. They destroyed Pakistan through the universities. They are all over the universities in the West the Canada's and US. They hate and they get that from Maulana Maudidi (lived his last years and died in the US, wanted to be buried in SA but was refused and body was sent back to Paki), and the Maulana got HATE from the koran.
If Peter King has any brains he'd start with the koran, mohammes life and his movement called Islam.

Its all there.

WILL HE?

It used to be America's "war against communism" and there was McCarthyism.

Now, it is America's "war on Islam" and there is a proposed to be Kingism.

King's hearings would go down well with Christian conservatives and Tea Partyists of a certain ilk who conflated liberalism with socialism with Islam as threats to America.

KOK:

On your muslim racism, a word. Akafir is not Jewish. I don't think he's muslim either.

Whatever he may be is irrelevant. At issue is what he says, not whether he is Jewish, or Christian, or muslim.

with another notable historical figure being the individual most responsible for the cruelties inflicted on jews during the spanish inquisition reported to have been himself a former jew.

Posted by: Kingofkings1 | December 24, 2010 1:10 AM
----------------------------
He was reported to have been a former muslim.

That, however, is irrelevant to the three-week-old encomium to the Jamaat e Islami found on the web site Akafir references.

I had not expected to find anything like that I confess. I thought, perhaps, Akafir misunderstood.

He did not.

EBOO, if you are a member of this group that supports a party that continues to bring death to so many, you need to explain. Please.

KoK1 refuses to address any of the facts that are raised and links provided, but writes as if he is wronged and is the victim. Jamaat Islami was complicit in the genocide of millions of Bangalis in Bangladesh in 1971
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2008085,00.html

The same Islamist party has created havoc in Pakistan, and clearly has great influence on the largest American Muslim Organisation ICNA and is calling for the return of the Khalifa and oppression of American Kafirs. Instead of addressing any of this, KoK1 is castigating the apostates of Islam because they choose to warn the American Kafirs and makes comparisons to the Grand inquistor. Who have the apostates killed? The muslim countries are putting apostates of Islam to death. The apostates that KoK1 names have not hurt anyone or attacked anyone. But in KoK1's world they are the villans, and the party and people who actually committed genocide because Bengalis were half hindus are acceptable because they are Muslims?

Eboo,
Your article is overly optimistic. I wouldn't be surprised if as part of your daily routine of getting ready in the morning, you include rose colored glasses and wear them thruout the day. Peter King is intent on scoring political points, and he is going to get the most mileage possible out of this topic, and which is not much different from the quran burning incident that was planned a few months ago.

Another point: be careful. especially of the oppportunistic individuals from your own group, rather than your avowed enemy (Rushdie, Manji, Hirsi Ali, Wafa Sultan, and Kafir). They tend to enjoy the special favors placed on them by the enemies of Islam, and tend to outdo even their own patrons in the extent of their hate and anti-islamism. We have seen this kind of behavior in a number of groups; with another notable historical figure being the individual most responsible for the cruelties inflicted on jews during the spanish inquisition reported to have been himself a former jew.

Eboo,
Your article is overly optimistic. I wouldn't be surprised if as part of your daily routine of getting ready in the morning, you include rose colored glasses and wear them thruout the day. Peter King is intent on scoring political points, and he is going to get the most mileage possible out of this topic, and which is not much different from the quran burning incident that was planned a few months ago.

Another point: be careful. especially of the oppportunistic individuals from your own group, rather than your avowed enemy (Rushdie, Manji, Hirsi Ali, Wafa Sultan, and Kafir). They tend to enjoy the special favors placed on them by the enemies of Islam, and tend to outdo even their own patrons in the extent of their hate and anti-islamism. We have seen this kind of behavior in a number of groups; with another notable historical figure being the individual most responsible for the cruelties inflicted on jews during the spanish inquisition reported to have been himself a former jew.

More on the links between ICNA and Jamaat Islami:

http://www.qazihussainexposed.com/Qazi/PDF/unity.pdf

and

http://www.militantislammonitor.org/article/id/4014

"A number of the other links given on the site you post go back twelve years and more, and so I gave them a pass."

The supremacist ideology that Islam preaches has not changed a bit for over 1400 years. The Pact of Umar over 1400 hundred years ago institutionalised the oppression and hatred for the non-Muslim that Allah commands in the Koran. Unfortunately, it matters little whether the references are twelve hundred years old, or twelve years old, or twelve days old, for the central theme of hate and kill the Kafirs has been and is a constant of Islam.

Akafir, I went to the actual ICNA website and noticed a PDF on Jamaat e Islami. Apparently it dates from Dec. 2, 2010 and is an encomium to that political party.

A number of the other links given on the site you post go back twelve years and more, and so I gave them a pass.

The hymn to Jamaat e Islami is three weeks old.

Eboo, what does this mean?

The same psychological desire to oppress the Kafirs infects the American Muslims. Take a look at what ICNA (Islamic Circle of North America) wants for the American and Canadian Kafirs:
http://www.investigativeproject.org/2373/hand-book-shows-icna-true-goals

Eboo is a member of ICNA. Is that what Eboo considers interfaith dialog?

Eboo writes: "It appears that a small number of young Muslim men are sitting in basements watching and reading twisted material online that tells them to kill others."

It is not twisted material online that they read and want to follow. It is the Koran and the Sunnah of Muhammad that tells them to oppress the Non-Muslims, and those who try to resist should be killed. It is not a small number of young Muslims who wish to do that; It is a significant fraction of young Muslim men around the world.

I hope Peter King is able to shine a light on how non-Muslims are oppressed and hated in all Muslim countries around the world and they are hated because of Islam and its Sharia. Those who call Islam a great religion should take the time to see how much hatred it projects for the non-Muslims, and how badly the non-Muslims have been treated and are treated in the Muslim world. Muslims have grown with a supremacist psychology and truly do not know how to live in a global world with people of other faiths as equals.

Example: From the Official Malaysian government site:
http://www.ikim.gov.my/v5/index.php?lg=1&opt=com_article&grp=1&sec=&key=2238&cmd=resetall

Press Statement Institute Of Islamic Understanding Malaysia (IKIM) on Religious Pluralism

15/12/2010 |
The Institute of Islamic Understanding Malaysia (IKIM) wishes to clarify that:

Firstly, Islam rejects religious pluralism which claims that all religions are equally true and equally good.

Secondly, only one religion possesses the perfect and complete revelation, that is, Islam (see the Qur'an, Al-Maidah, 5:3).
*************************
And with that the Muslims of Malaysia claim special status and special privileges over their non-Muslim fellow citizens who are relegated as second class citizens, and whose children are condemned to hearing in schools and literally in every venue of their cultural life that their faith is less than Islam and that they are Najjas (unclean).

And this is in moderate Malyasia. The treatment of the Kafirs is much worse in the more forceful Islamic nations of Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Egypt, Sudan, Libiya, Afghanistan, etc. etc.

"It appears that a small number of young Muslim men are sitting in basements watching and reading twisted material online that tells them to kill others."

And where do these websites and online imams get their inspiration? Which texts are they referencing to justify their views? Is it possibly the Quran and the hadith that are providing the "theological" justification and/or obligation to resort to violence? Once again, Eboo, just like the rest of the apologists out there, is avoiding some central issues with respect to radicalization of Muslims: justification and inspiration for violence in the name of Islam is found in Islam's texts that are merely referenced and "interpreted" by imams such as al Awlaki. Why don't we see radical Mormons blowing themselves up and hijacking planes to defend their religion from non-Mormon imperialism? Why don't we see a bunch of radical Buddhists committing suicide attacks against meat-eaters? Look at the terrorists, find the variables that are common among them, and then you will have your answers as to what is inspiring the violence: the Quran and the hadith.

This type of radicalization doesn't happen in a vacuum. Simply reading something like Inspire won't magically turn any Muslim into a terrorist, any more than reading the Turner Diaries would turn a Christian into a racist. The likely cause is probably not much different from the serial killer mentality. A combination of alienation and dysfunction can make a person vulnerable to narratives that purport to explain everything about the person's life that doesn't make sense. These narratives aren't the religious teachings themselves, but the interpretations of them with a focus on a victim mentality. Such a disaffected Muslim can readily accept the idea that Westerners and Jews are responsible for his life being rotten. It's the same phenomenon that would lead a disaffected believer in Jesus to a hate group like Christian Identity.

Muslims are their self’s worst enemies. They kept threatening to “throw Israel into the sea” until Israel threw them into the desert. Now their clerics are publicly threatening to conquer and subjugate the West,” just like they had Persia and Byzantium”. They have missed Socrates wise advice of “Know thyself”, and their self is deluded. Their primary loyalty is to their Ummah, Nation of Islam, and that is part of their creed. Until that attitude changes nothing in their behavior will change.

HAPPY EVERYDAY WORLD (like a Birthday!)
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Praise "IT" (NOta HE & NOta SHE)
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PEACE,PAZ,SHALOM,SALAAM,AHIMSA,MIR, ZHINGYU....
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Credits "JJ" http://onwapo.wordpress.com/