Hmmm, who is this strange New World person? Maybe an escapee from the world of probability waves???

Ooppps.

C C N L: Whoever You'ar This below is for your-Eyes only:

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Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm... A.O.

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Globalone wrote: First, I am interested to know what program exists where the government was more efficient than private industry. At most, you could probably find one or two instances. That's it.

There are many instances, and you will some noted above by Gimpi. However, go to countries like Singapore (yes, it is small) or India (which is large) and you will find that the full cost of health-care even in private clinics is less than the cop-pay or deductible you pay in the US, not to mention the exorbitant prices one pays for prescriptions.

Capitalism tends to be civilizing and socialism tends to brutalize. Withheld information becomes a reasonable excuse. The US has done fine with charity toward all and malice toward none for many years. Move to France. They were rioting over jobs. Better yet move to Cuba for the health care benefits.

Father Reese noted the following in his recent comments on healthcare:

"While Washington debates health care, another study reports that obesity may have cost the health care system $147 billion in 2008. Now if Republicans really believed in the marketplace, they would propose charging fat people more for health insurance. Same for smokers, gun owners, and heavy drinkers."

Added commentary:

Bravo!!!

Add to that charging more (or not covering)for treatment of STDs which as per the CDC costs $14+ billion/year.

And then there is this:

"The tobacco industry is one of the most profitable businesses in the country, making billions of dollars every year. But the costs of smoking are far higher than the income from cigarette sales.

Smoking causes more than $196 billion each year in health-related costs, including the cost of lost productivity caused by deaths from smoking.

Smoking-related medical costs averaged more than $100 billion each year between 2000 and 2004. This translates to $2,197 in extra medical expenses for each adult smoker per year as of 2004.

Death-related productivity losses from smoking among workers cost the US economy more than $97 billion yearly (average for 2000-2004).

For each pack of cigarettes sold or given away in 2004, $5.34 was spent on medical care caused by smoking, and $5.28 lost in productivity, for a total cost to society of $10.62 per pack. "

CCNL1, apparently you haven't had the much experience with insurance co-pays, donut-holes, deductables and top-outs. The average bill for cancer treatment WITH insurance is $30,000.00. The average bill in Canada is $500.00 The most common (60% and up) cause of bankruptcy in the US is medical bills, and over 70% of those had insurance. (Source: CNN, but the link is down, sorry.) We are virtually all just a serious illness away from bankruptcy and destitution.

Canadians, Brits, Irish, French, German, Austrian, Australian, Japanese, Indian, Norwegian, Swiss, Finish and virtually all citizens of all industrialized, first-world nations don't face this suffering. They all provide government-sponsored healthcare, in one form or another. And they all get better results, for less money per capita, than the US.

As to the notion that the Government can't be trusted to accomplish anything, we just celebrated the anniversary of the first manned landing on the moon. No private company could have pulled that off. We trust the government to wage war, we give it policing powers to arrest and imprison or execute us, but we don't trust it to treat an ear-infection?

The government takes on war, major scientific tasks, policing, major disaster aid and such things because some jobs are so big, they require all of us working together. That's what the government is, after all.

Lots of this mistrust of any government works came out of the "The Government is the problem, not the solution," view of the republicians. I would quote another republician, Senator Proxmire, "The government is the worst enemy you have, unless you really need a friend."

A couple comments.

I'd like to know more about the Chicago hospital. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the service were that bad, depending on where it was and who ran the hospital. It isn't a good measure of the whole US system though. I've never had a bad experience like this.

The Paris hospital seemed nice but it doesn't exactly sound perfectly efficient either. Again, one experience does not define a system. Keep in mind that just because you don't see all the confusion, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Someone had to pay for things you didn't, and that means sky high taxes. By the way, do countries really want to pay for foreigners health care? That could be a real trap.

What I see here isn't really a debate on the health care issues. It's just a couple of carefully selected experiences that don't match any of mine. It be nice if people didn't try to create our health care off from one good experience.

There are still major topics to discuss and personally I'm not for government run health care. Just can't see it being successful. Most people like it because they don't pay for healthcare. Actually they do pay dearly for healthcare if they work, they just don't see it. But these countries are forced to raise taxes and cut back services to meet demands. It isn't always pretty and the ones who often get the short are those who need care the most (sick and elderly). It's just they aren't the majority.

There are surely things that need to be reformed in the US but government health care would be a real disaster. I would say that the US is about 10 times as complex as these countries and doesn't have any money to spend. Have you ever looked at Medicaid. Try using it and you more likely to be denied service than anything else. Do we really want all people getting their service from the government.

Regardless of what CCNL1 thinks, the vast majority of Canadians and Brits like their health care systems.

If they did not, there would certainly be Canadian or Brit politicians running on a platform to dismantle their own system and to install a US style system.
NEVER HAPPENS!! I wonder why.

I have a few English friends, and a lot of Canadian ones. To a person, they are very dissatisfied with their health care systems. Many of these friends come to the USA for treatment even if it does cost more.

I have a few English friends, and a lot of Canadian ones. To a person, they are very happy with their health care systems, and pity me mine.

I have insurance, but that doesn't mean much. It doesn't allow me to choose any doctor I like, without paying much more, and it doesn't get me in to see them any faster than my foreign friends. It has certainly kept my raises very low as my employer struggles to keep up with rising costs - and this has meant changing carriers several times, with all the attendant disruption.

I have self-employed American friends who pay an astronomical rate for their health insurance, and who have had to stop taking previously prescibed medications lest their "pre-existing conditions" cause them to be uninsurable.

It's simply crazy to have patients in need of treatment, and doctors willing to treat them, while in between sits a for-profit insurance company whose sole means of maximizing profit is to keep the two from ever getting together.

Madness.

First, I am interested to know what program exists where the government was more efficient than private industry. At most, you could probably find one or two instances. That's it. So please spare us the rhetoric that ObamaCare is a cost savings measure. At a MINIMUM, it's going to take at LEAST 15 years to realize any savings. And because this is the government we're talking about, that number is probably closer to 50.

Second, while I don't question the authenticity of your story, I can easily find someone who experienced the exact opposite of what you did. Your story is NOT typical of the experiences people have had with government sponsored health care. My guess is that it is more likely to be 50/50.

Rich blessings.

Apparently you went to the right hospital in Paris and the wrong one in Chicago plus for some reason you failed to buy medical insurance which at least 85% of the citizens of the USA have.