Boca Bubbies for Barack!

Victoria, to substantiate your claim, please provide the verses from the Quran which gives scientific details of the womb, reproduction etc.

As to ensoulment, there is no empirical proof whatsoever. No religion can provide any proof, not just Islam. The presence of a soul is based on religious faith - in all religions.

Sadly, although ostensibly this board was designed for that reason- it seems to be such a rarity that it must be noted, eh, Amrinius?

Pats on the back all around.

Grace and Victoria,

I thank you both. Do you realize the import of what we have done here? Three people of starkly different beliefs have politely discoursed on a topic. Each of us have learned. Is that not what these blogs are really all about? To learn, to exchange information, to explain beliefs, in an atmosphere free of accusation and bitterness?

Grace, I think you deserve the lion's share of the credit. You set forth your question in a very humble and civil manner, and replied in the same way. I think both Victoria and I rose to your level with this.

I think, my friends, that we three have good reason to be proud. (Yeah, I know it's a sin! But I will risk it this time.)

Arminius

To Victoria and Arminius

Thank you both so much for your honesty. I just love getting other points of view and I am seriously trying to understand Liberalism and how it relates to Christianity. You know just how others justify their beliefs in today's culture. I know I'm Conservative and have strong beliefs but I don't want to push that on people - that never works in any situation.

Arminius - I now understand you have made some choices and you believe in them strongly enough to suffer consequences should there be any.

Victoria - I don't understand your faith well enough to make comments, but I know you believe in what you say.

Have a great day and be blessed!

Grace

I have my own WOW for Obama 08
White Ohio Woman for Obama.
Other crude thought: VV for Obama/Biden
(Vagina Vote)

Thanks Arminius :)

Grace, you are nothing if not gracious and a welcome addition.

Thepoliticaltruth:

"But they forget to read the part of the scriptures that says it is immoral to do the 7 deadly sins"

Do go ahead and quote us where in 'Scripture' it says it's immoral to do the 'Seven Deadly Sins.'

Shall I save you a few years?

Guess what.

It ain't there.

You want me to obey your Bible, at least make some pretense of *reading* the Mother-loving thing.

" alance:

The use and abuse of the Bible is an equal opportunity exploiter from both sides. Obama is quick to renounce both his Muslim faith and his allegiance to Rev. Wright. "

Ok. Seriously.

How do you actually *live* indulging enough doublethink to think Senator Obama, despite all evidence and indication in either direction, is supposed to *both* have a Muslim faith and hold 'allegiance' to a pastor he openly denounced after said pastor lost his intellectual cookies when someone pointed a camera at him?

Seriously.

Both your assertions are nonsense. I don't wanna *know* how you figure they fit together.

Jacques,

Morality is being played loosely by those who claim that they will vote based on Faith. But they forget to read the part of the scriptures that says it is immoral to do the 7 deadly sins - which one leading politician has known to have done.
When did we close our eyes to the immoral plight of many Americans in this economic crisis? It is when we use religion as the way to make voting decisions. When we start looking at the facts that certain politicians help deregulate the financial industry and are close to the hip of lobbyist then we will stop the shenanigan and get back to the right moral path.

Grace,

You're welcome.

I realize the perils of taking one's own life. I am prepared to do that under certain very limited circumstances, with the full understanding that I will have to answer for it later. So be it.

Yes, I am quite liberal in my belief. That is the path I am on - I am not sure if I chose it, or it was chosen for me.

Take care, and God bless.

Arminius -

Thanks for your reply.

By spiritual suicide I mean are you willing to jeopardize your eternal security because of picking and choosing what you believe in the Bible. I'm all for the red letters too, but I believe the rest of the Bible is the Word of God too.

That's why I can't agree with the far left. The Bible is clear to me on abortion, homosexuality, greed, laziness, etc. It's sin. I'm just trying to figure out how other Christians justify all this.

Thanks again.

"Saddam Hussein advertise to pay $25,000.00 to the families of suicide killer terrorist to bomb anything or anybody in Isreal. Geogre W. Bush took out Saddam Hussein and with tightened security, there has been no suicide bombing in Isreal. No $25,000.00 to the foolish people and many lives have been saved."

Indeed the Butcher of Baghdad did offer and pay these bounties. So what? Israel stopped the suicide bombings by heightened security and their wall. The stopping of the bounties had nothing to do with it. Get a grip. Your cause and effect is seriously flawed. The Shrub did nothing but cast us all into a nightmare. Yes, there seems to be hope there now, but it is very, very fragile.

Saddam Hussein advertise to pay $25,000.00 to the families of suicide killer terrorist to bomb anything or anybody in Isreal. Geogre W. Bush took out Saddam Hussein and with tightened security, there has been no suicide bombing in Isreal. No $25,000.00 to the foolish people and many lives have been saved.

Barack Obama would have not done anything by his own words.

A Christian response to Grace -

Q "Do you or do you not believe in the principals of your faith?

A Yes, Grace, I do.

Q "Do you use the Bible as your guide for these principals?"

A Only the Gospels, and parts of the Epistles. The heart of Christianity, I believe, is in the words of Jesus in the Gospels. Anything else is either, commentary, background, history, or metaphor.

Q "If you do - how can you vote Pro-Choice or for any other far right view?"

A Pro-choice. Abortion is, in my belief, the lesser of two evils. We need to make abortion legal, safe, and very, very rare by promoting sensible education.

Q "Do you who profess to "believe" really want to commit spititual suicide?"

A What the hell is 'Spiritual Suicide'? Do you mean the taking of one's own life? I would only do that to forestall having my children watch me die slowly. I watched my father die that way, and resolved then, at the age of 17, not to let anyone else suffer that. I don't hold that against my father, he had no choice.

Looking forward to a reply.

Arminius

Victoria,

God knows you and I have had our differences lately! But please let me compliment you on your answers to Grace. Well done, and I can certainly live with that. My answers to Grace's question will be different, but I see no conflict between your answers and mine.

Arminius

Victoria - thanks for your comments. At least you are standing by the principals of your faith. My principals are different than yours but I can see from your response you are committed to yours too and I respect that.

Would a Christian or Catholic please answer my question? Victoria was brave enough to.

In response to Grace-

Q "Do you or do you not believe in the principals of your faith?

A Yes, Grace, I do.

Q "Do you use the Bible as your guide for these principals?"

A No, Grace, I don't. I am a Muslim and I use the Qur'an as my guide.

Q "If you do - how can you vote Pro-Choice or for any other far right view?"

A The Qur'an states that the fetus does not become ensouled until 40 days.
It also decribes in scientific detail the structure and nature of the womb, the fetus, and the process of pregancy- 1400 YEARS BEFORE SUCH KNOWLEDGE COULD BE VERIFIED BY MODERN SCIENCE!

Also the Qur'am does not endorse far right or far left- it is the religion that specifically advocates moderation , or the middle way, in all aspects of life- No extremes allowed.

Q "Do you who profess to "believe" really want to commit spititual suicide?"

A My beliefs system is consistent with my guide, the Qur'an. Suicide is forbidden in Islam.
And if you murder on einnocent, it is as if you have murdered the whole world.

However, in Islam- we are commanded to treat others with autonomy and respect. There is no compulsion, nor coercion of others allowed.
What you are suggesting is that your view can be forced upon others and that they should be coerced into accepting what you believe over what they hold true for themselves.

We are forbidden form dictating to others what they should believe or not believe.

There is the major difference.
We must repsect others.

Can someone of Faith just answer me one question?

Do you or do you not believe in the principals of your faith? Do you use the Bible as your guide for these principals? If you do - how can you vote Pro-Choice or for any other far right view?

Do you see that as sin or do you only believe what you want to believe as far as your faith is concerned?

If your Catholic - do you believe in what the Vatacan mandates as truth? If you're Evangelical do you believe that the Bible is the Word of God and if you do how can you vote for abortion and big government? I honestly don't understand it and I'm not trying to slam anyone here. I just don't get it.

I am a born-again Christian, raised Catholic but changed as a young adult. I base my principals on the word of God. Even though I sometimes feel a woman may have a right to choose I cannot go against my faith because I believe it all not just parts of it that I agree with. The Bible is clear - You don't work, you don't eat. Thou shalt not kill. God made us - You see what I'm trying to say here.

Do you who profess to "believe" really want to commit spititual suicide? Do you really want to take those kinds of chances with your eternal security? Right or wrong - I believe in God and his Word and in the principals of that Word weather I understand them or not. You can't pick and choose and expect to go to Heaven. For those of you who don't believe in Heaven or Hell - well I'll just keep praying that the scales will fall off of your eyes.

The use and abuse of the Bible is an equal opportunity exploiter from both sides. Obama is quick to renounce both his Muslim faith and his allegiance to Rev. Wright. Meanwhile, Father Michael Pfleger endorses Obama and gets censured by the Catholic Church along with Pelosi and Biden.

In South Florida, we have two Jewish congress people endorsing Obama, while the Israeli government is scared to death of Obama. Party loyalty trumps survival. How do you get people to support their own destruction?

Then we have the unholy alliance of America's enemies: Iran, Venezuela, Bolivia, Cuba - Muslims and leftist Catholics and agnostics and orthodox Russians attacking their neighbors. It is a dangerous world and Iran and Hamas continue to pledge the destruction of Israel.

Don't know how one authenticates another's faith stance, especially through the internet, but here's my witness:

I am a born-again, evangelical (since before the term became prostituted by the religious right), Christian who was a pastor for 42 years. And I am a supporter of Barack Obama.

America has been fragmented by "the culture wars" for too long. Barack Obama offers a clear change of direction.

If you do not suppor him, and he wins, can you say, "I am an American, I will support him, and give him a chance." If not, just what kind of American are you?

I am from AZ. I hae met Senator McCain on several occasions. I admire him, though I have become severely disillusioned in the past few weeks. Yet if he does become President, I will seek to work as hard as I can to make him a successful President and bring our country together.

midas20874,

I agree with you totally about your analysis of the religious situation in the campaign. However, I am not about to pass judgment on those who claim the Lord Jesus Christ as their savior. God knows the heart. I do believe that Obama's Christian testimony is real. If "by their fruits, you shall know them," I do have a real problem with the spiritual claims of McCain, Palin, Bush, and Cheney.

I vote for SBC (Southern Baptist Convention) moderates for Obama. Moderate and SBC member are oxymorons. Hence, I am an SBC moderate for Obama.

In Virginia, Holton Republicans for Obama.

If the true Christians were to open their hearts and not be fooled as they were by George W. Bush for his own political gains; they will not choose McCain/Palin. A campaign that has shown that it is predicated on lies just to get elected is not showing the character of Christ. Anybody who listened to the speech by Palin will know that she was of the world. The sarcasm, the foul mouth, the arrogant look, the condescending tone and the whole negative demeanor may bode well for CNN and other worldly media outlets which celebrate individuals than substance; it did not exemplify what Christ preaches and represents.

As a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, I have been blessed by the spirit of discernment and I can tell you that neither John McCain nor Sarah Palin are Christians. Rather, they are political opportunists just like GW. But how else will the Scriptures be fulfilled that in the last days, false prophets will emerge? A woman as bitter as Palin, as deceptive as Palin, as vindictive as Palin cannot be a true believer of Christ but a follower of Jezebel.

I don't believe in any fairy tales about 'god', but I do support Obama.

Despite his obvious failing of believing in god, I like his politics.

He almost lost me with his "faith-based" b.s., but I realize I must compromise to gain a greater good (why must leftists always be the ones to compromise?)

One World.
Peace.

This "Believers For Barack" is just an office in an Obama campaign office somewhere. If Obama knows one thing, it is the radical's art of disinformation. Do a bit of digging and one finds the authors are always part of the Obama campaign. They put out the same formulaic text and arguments.

"I am Christian/Gun Owner/Pro-Lifer/Conservative (fill in the blank), but I am disillusioned with Bush/The Church/Cheney/Society (fill in the blank) and therefore see Barack as a new option.

Then this message is spread around the internet in the hopes of snaring a few hopeless chumps' votes.

As a believer in all things created and with purpose I believe that the time is now for a man of the character,compassion and intellilect as Obama. Obama is a man who truly cares about the people. He is not promoting himself by changing with every passing minute. First McCain was against something now he is for it ..if it proves to be an expedient means to acquiring the Presidency. His running mate has a daughter that is pregnant and now it is ok for her to fornicate because she is being forced to get married. Do you really think that this is the first time that this child fornicated. NO..Sarah was not aware of what was going on in her own house..why do you want to entrust her with the nation's house

How about

Church of God *amn Americans for Obama

How about

Proud to Be an American (since November)

How about

Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness*
*10 Months and Older

How about Catholics Who Don't Understand No for Obama

How About

Real Change from 1960

How About

'Ted Kennedy with a Tan'

Some change.

I believe I'll pass. Sorry, but the inability to explain away murdering an unborn baby sort of does that.

His theology is an anathema to many Christians.

Hrm, Thanks. You know, I'm just really not sure exactly what this columnist's attitude is supposed to be apropos of.

I mean *usually* when Wiccans ever come up in a public policy debate or anything of the sort, it's only as some kind of ridiculous argument ad exremis, like the prayer in schools debate being, 'Well, if we have religious prayers, what's to stop a *Wiccan* from praying or being part of a diversity program ' (funny how both sides seem to find this a silly notion.)

Frankly, religious freedom is *dead* serious to non-Abrahamics in this country after the past decades of *scary* agendas of intolerance and Christian radicals' encroachment upon civil liberties, and I didn't take that as mockery.

Christians may feel oppressed if they don't get to wade into other people's ceremonies with a bullhorn, or can't put religious demands in government... But it's non-trivial when you *actually* have to worry about what can be done to you for not being an Abrahamic.

Guess it *could* have been mockery, But I'm just not sure what the columnist's attitude is about with the whole column. Maybe he wants to be an openly-atheist Republican, and is just flailing.

"The challenge is for Obama to rally Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Wiccans, and, uh, others to his side."

Considering you are posting on the "On Faith" blog, perhaps you should dial down your clumsy attempts at humor so as not to offend anyone. I appreciate this blog, typically, but don't appreciate my faith group marginalized, even for the sake of humor. I'm not sensitive regarding my faith - I mock fellow 'believers' all the time. I am however sensitive to the insinuation that some faith groups are less American than others. The way you string these together and single them out is at least obnoxious and at worst unAmerican.

How about:

"This Atheist Believes in Change!"

" Aenas McCofferty:

"I still worship Athena, Zeus and a handful of the lesser GODS. Where's my t-shirt???"

At the Nike shop? :)

Io. :)

How about "Atheist for McCain"? McCain obviously does not believe in all the Christian nonsense we have been inundated with. He needs to come out of the religious closet.

I still worship Athena, Zeus and a handful of the lesser GODS. Where's my t-shirt???

How about -

Jesus was a Community Organizer, Pilate was a Governor

St Sarah Assassinated Bullwinkle!

Vote McWorse and Move into the 19th Century

Feed the Rich! Starve the Poor! Vote McCain/Palin!

Vote McCain! Who needs Rights anyway?

Palin Speaks in Tongues? So does McCain

More and more Americans are disturbed by a growing lack of moral standards in the world, so they make (in my opinion) the mistake of seeking to impose their faith on others by way of civil law and seek to judge the religious values of other mortal beings. Yet, come to think of it, if McCain/Palin win, it just may do the trick and inspire me to pray some more.

I basically agree that for Obama to really get the word out to the diverse faith communities regarding his record and his agenda, his campaign needs a broader range of bumper stickers. Here are a few suggestions:

Another Believer for Barack
and Partial-Birth Abortion

Catholics Who Want Barack
and the Freedom of Choice Act

Tax-Funded Abortion
We Can Believe In:
Obama 2008

Re-legalize Partial-Birth Abortion --
Obama-Biden in 2008

Another Born-Again Believer
Against Born-Alive Infants Protection

Faith. Hope. Change.
Partial-birth abortion.
Obama 2008

Douglas Johnson
Legislative Director
National Right to Life Committee
www.nrlc.org

Though, come to think of it, I haven't heard McCain harping on the term "*Judeo-* Christian" since he went with the Dominionist Christian running mate and not Lieberman.

"The challenge is for Obama to rally Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Wiccans, and, uh, others to his side."

Well, it's not much of a challenge in terms of Wiccans, anyway: any of us who value our religious freedom and our own community values are ill-advised to vote Republican, and most of us who aren't actively-psyched about Obama tend to be Libertarian about their conservatism.

And the Fundie Bob Barr, who basically bought out the Libertarian party, is the dude that actually tried to ban our religion from the armed forces on the basis (which Bush agreed with) that our civil rights don't count.

Of course non-'Judeo-Christians' are heavily for Obama. According to McCain, only 'Judeo-Christians count as Americans.