"Authentic Common Ground on Abortion"

The Reality of Christianity- 101 (as being taught at many universities to include the University of Texas, Austin)

Only for those eyes that have not seen--

Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus).

Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

For added "pizzazz", Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

Current crises:

Pedophiliac priests, atonement theology and original sin!!!!

Luther, Calvin, Joe Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley, Roger Williams, the Great "Babs" of the Baha'i cult et al, founders of Christian-based and some comprehensive religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

Current crises:

Adulterous preachers, "propheteering/ profiteering" evangelicals, atonement theology, all-male leadership and strange banking/fund leadership requirements.

Tom,
I may have misjudged ccnl. Perhaps, his posting of Chopra's book (scroll down) on Rabbi Brad's thread was meant to be helpful. I should respond in kind, should I not? The least I can do....
Jesus
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News Flash!!

Buddha has changed his direction-

All aborted babies starting with the thousands killed today will be reincarnated as rabid and ranting Baha'i cultists!!!

Tom,

I may have misjudged ccnl. Perhaps, his posting of Chopra's book (scroll down) on Rabbi Brad's thread was meant to be helpful. I should respond in kind, should I not? The least I can do....

Jesus

Available at Amazon.com

The Third Jesus: The Christ We Cannot Ignore (Hardcover)
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In case you missed the latest news:

Buddha has provided. The 35 million aborted babies in the USA since 1973 to date were/are being reincarnated as fanatical Muslims

Hello Globalone,

Thank you for the reply. Okay, I am in alignment with most of your last post. Just not the more absolutist version of 'if you don't want a child don't have sex'. In a pure world of absolutes that is a reasonable argument. Not in this more subtle existence.

I am all for the encouragement of and teaching of personal responsibility and consequences for ones' actions. Taught along with real information on human sexuality and sexual relationship issues and crafted to the language of the audience you would find few disinterested listeners. As well I'm guessing positive step in sexual dynamics, whether active or not.

Active, one way or other is what happens, in my view. That does not mean 'sexual', but most young people are experimenting with their own sexual attractiveness, posturing, flirting, dressing, positioning socially and heirarchically, etc. We can help grow a more balanced and grounded culture by being honest and forthcoming around sexuality as well as many other essential topics.

So... my little speech.

Juststill,

Apologies for not responding earlier. Honestly, I'm not sure I understood your response.

I am certainly not against anyone enjoying sex to whatever degree they so desire. Birth control, no birth control. That's completely up to them. And considering I have no ties whatsoever to the Catholic church, I am not against the use of birth control.

But the fact remains. No birth control on the planet safeguards women from ever becoming pregnant. This is not a secret. This is common knowledge. And to use the fact that the "odds" are in your favor as a crutch to defend abortion is intolerable.

If a drunk drives home on six separate occasions and makes it safely, is the seventh time excused when he plows into another vehicle? Really, how could he have expected that an accident would occur?

Abortions that are performed due to circumstances that are "unexpected" is a lazy way of saying that you would rather not take responsibility for your actions.

Again, I don't believe that women should be locked up for having one or that they should be forced to wear a scarlet letter. But any "education" that is conducted needs to be more than the birds and the bees. It needs to include serious discussion on responsibility and accountability. And not just as it pertains to abortion.

We are to report offensive comments, and unfortunately the vast majority of the comments regarding Fr. Reese's observations are offensive.

Also a great many are uninformed -- quoting inaccurate statistics, wierd slants on Catholic teaching, and a lack of awareness that abortion and contraception were universally considered as evils by most other major religions until the 20th century. (The Catholics were not the ones responsible for the illegality of contraceptives in the US -- those were laws passed by Protestants and other Americans.)

Just a thought -- no woman ever got pregnant by herself -- is it possible that some male responsibility is warranted? That maybe male sexual responsibility is a little more complicated than bringing a woman to orgasm?

The bill mentions nothing about education or access to birth control which have been proven to reduce the number of abortions. The right won't compromise and they don't have any true interest in reducing the number of abortions. I believe that President Obama should completely ignore the anti-choice community. They never mention anything about illegal abortion which kills millions of women every year. If abortion became illegal in the US, the conservatives and Catholic Church would ignore the women who harm themselves by taking matters into their own hands. Just ask any woman who came of age pre-Roe. They have horrors stories of women who self-aborted. Abortion isn't new. Roe didn't invent it and it's never going to go away.

Hello again Globalone,

I see that you are continuing to play that fiddle. Your Q and A to Paganplace was cute and I understood the point, but you seem to hold onto some assumptions that are not necessarily true.

I posted to you and you gave no reply. No need to, just noted. The essence of that message, responding to your statement "if you don't want to have a child, don't have sex", was this:

"If you don't want to have a child, but you do want to have sex, then find a way that you can achieve both those desires."

Sex does not invariably lead to pregnancy, even if practiced without birth control. (Practice makes perfect!) Practiced with birth control the freedom to be sexual without being pregnant, or parental, is greatly increased. It is natural to want to be sexual for humans. It is natural that if birth control is used conscientiously that pregnancy is avoided. It is then natural that one that engages in sex while using birth control would not 'expect' a pregnancy.

The act of religiously based groups to seek to restrict access to birth control as well as sexual education is immature in the least, irresponsible itself, and leads to a greater number of the abortions that they loathe. A self fulfilling prophesy.

Rev. Reese,
I hope H.R. 2035 will be signed into Law, but that will not significantly reduce the number of abortions. More intensive sex- ed plus more use of artificial birth prevention is necessary : a condom does not kill any life. The only reason the Catholic Church oppose them is - in my opinion - because the C. Church wants catholic women to get pregnant as often as possible in order to increase the number of catholics all over this word. There is strength in number. Also no Pope wants to go down in history as the one that allowed the catholic population to shrink. Sitting down on the table with catholics to discuss the use of condoms is a waste of time.

"In my times as Pagan clergy, I've counselled a number of women who found themselves with unexpected pregnancies"

I'm guessing we can thank the whole "victimization" movement for this type of absurd statement. How about a little Q&A for our mother (and/or father) dealing with an "unexpected" pregnancy.

Q: Do you understand the concept of reproduction? That children are created through the act of sexual intercourse and engaging in such an act may result in a child?

A: Yes I do. I'm not stupid. But we used protection.

Q: Are you aware that there is no method (including Depo-Provera, Norplant, etc.) that is 100% effective except for abstinence.

A: Of course I'm aware of that.

Q: So how is your pregnancy "unexpected"?

A:

Q: Hello?

Q: Are you still there?

It is obvious we got Farnaz's attention but to keep her awake, once again:

It would appear that the Baha'i cult has many RCC similarities in dictating rules about the functions of everyone's wombs and genitalia to include those of the same sex involvement.

And then we have the Jewish rules about not bearing false witness, fornicating, killing, adulterating, and coveting.

And keep in mind, Farnaz has the following aliases:

Farnaz2 aka Observer12 aka Observer31 aka Yael1
aka ivri5678 aka Billy8 aka nadinebatra aka stadtbear aka
Spark1 aka Masumian MA? aka Ma'sumian? aka
Sheikhazdeh-Zavareh? aka Shark2 aka Spidermean3 aka
Farnazmansouri1.

Tom,

I may have misjudged ccnl. Perhaps, his posting of Chopra's book (scroll down) on Rabbi Brad's thread was meant to be helpful. I should respond in kind, should I not? The least I can do....

Jesus

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by Deepak Chopra (Author)
96 Reviews
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Tom,

Just visited briefly to see what ccnl, the Catholic, might be up to on R. Hirschfield's thread, the one I mentioned in my previous post.
_________________________________________
This is what I found:

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4.1 out of 5 stars See all reviews (101 customer reviews)

Posted by: CCNL | April 30, 2009 12:58 AM
__________________________________________
So, Tom, where do we begin? With the QRST Gospell, the Ratlines, the ongoing Concordats, the Croation Nazi priests, other nazi priests, the Vatican's ill-gotten gains?

Your call, Tom.
_________________________________________
I do hope you are taking note of my continued forebearance, Tom, because it's a miraculous thing.

I'd start with the Q Gospell, easy to cut and paste, and scan. The rest is nothing.

Easiest thing in the world.
___________________________________________
YOu have an evil wandering Catholic sheep. He needs to confess and repent. BIG TIME.

REAL SOON.

Tom,

I forgot to mention, I'm talking about the Catholic CCNL aka Stadtbear aka various Observers aka Tom aka false witness and jerk.

Now, Tom, my being in an altered state and all, I'm not posting edifying material on the QRST Gospell and such, but as you can see, I'm getting very, very close.

I am getting close Tom. And the reason is this lying thing has written the most offensive imaginable garbage to a very sick woman. Not I. This entity, Tom, says it is Catholic.
____________________
I await your judgement on CCNL's post on Rabbi Brad's thread.

Fr. Tom, I'm logging off because I do not trust that my altered state will continue with this Catholic, ccnl aka jerk, lurking about, larvally, much longer.

I leave you with these words:

If I am not for myself, who will be for me?
If I am for myself alone, what am I?
If not now, when?
_________________________________
I trust I need not mention the author.

Goodnight to you, and I sincerely hope you read this and post before my edification becomes necessary.

Farnaz

Tom,

Please go to "Love and Questions on Israel's 61st," and note, this isn't the first time that CCNL, the Catholic has done this sort of thing on a rabbi's thread.

Posted by: CCNL | April 29, 2009 2:24 PM
_____________________________________

Now, tell me, is this consistent with Catholic teaching?

It would appear that the Baha'i cult has many RCC similarities in dictating rules about the functions of everyone's wombs and genitalia to include those of the same sex involvement.

And then we have the Jewish rules about not bearing false witness, fornicating, killing, adulterating and coveting with said rules also pertaining to homosexuals.

Now what might have Paganplace been in her previous life??

Probably another pagan since pagans do no harm (or good?) and therefore just keep a constant flow into the reincarnated market place of humankind of about one percent of the population for the last one hundred years.

Tom,

I want you to understand. I am exercising tremendous forebearance, not posting long excerpts from this, that, and t'other scholarly text, debunking much of what CCNL, the "realist" says of both "Jesus" and the "NT."

I mean, tremendous. Sage-like. I mean I'm in an altered state.

Anti-choicers jes' ain't gonna win, Tom. Not gonna happen. Not here. Yer Romans ain't gonna buy us like they did Ireland. UhUh. Nope.

It appears you are wise enough to know the enmity the RCC is breeding and not only amongst Catholics as a result of its position on birth control and abortion, not to mention homosexuality, not to mention this, that, and several other things.

Tom, you know what? You appear a decent sort, and so I'm going to spare you edification on the "NT" and "Jesus," spare you that which that Son of Your Church, CCNL visited upon a rabbi on this blog; the creature "explained" and translated (I swear) for this rabbi.

Now, Tom, what do you think of my Jewish caritas? My Jewish wisdom?

You do appear a decent sort, not a complete embarrassment, like Stevens-Arroyo. One gets the sense that you have an education.

Communicate to the RCC. This is a secular society. Perhaps, Catholics would stop fleeing the Church, not only here, but in Europe if they removed their fingers from everyone's wombs and genitalia.

Who knows, you might even get some folks back into the church. It's that Roman thing that turns so many former Catholics off.

agapn9:

"The catholic church is not against education.
The church is against birth control because one of the ways that the pill prevents birth is to dislodge a living embryo from the wall of the uterus.
The dislodgment of a growing viable embryo resulting in the death of that embryo is considered abortion by the catholic church."

Oh, yeah, and what is your excuse for not aloowing the condom????

Globealone:

"If you don't want to have a child, don't have sex. Not complicated, is it?
But if you have sex anyway under the illusion that birth control "

And surely that comment was meant for the men who dip their wieners into the mustard jar. Right?!?!?!

I mean, yaknow, CCNL, you *could* very well have a little hormonal surge, decide 'Masturbation must be stopped! Have sex with me! ...raise a big stink, 'research' some girl-on-girl porn, throw metaphorical poop about it, and decide 'human nature' ...while entirely un-primate-like, is innately 'evil,' and bound for imminent judgement and horrific *doom,* ...or....

...Or figure maybe most of our fellow travellers are new at this two-legs thing right now.

Gets *me* out of bed some mornings, anyway. :)

"Buddha has provided. The 35 million aborted babies are being reincarnated as fanatical Muslims."

Oooookay. I know you're kind of new to the concept, CCNL, but if you want to assume linearity and statistics, 'reincarnation' as you dismissively seem to imagine it actually would imply, by world population statistics, that actually, it's a bigger problem that thanks to overbreeding, our world is disproportionately once-born. :)

Not that continually traumatizing the living in expectations of immediate escape is likely doing our collective karma any good. :)

Buddha has provided. The 35 million aborted babies are being reincarnated as fanatical Muslims.

Mariano Patalinjug,

"To these people who have drifted away terribly disillusioned and disenchanted with the Catholic Church's obviously neurotic fixation with these highly divisive social issues, to the total neglect of other political, economic and social issues that have a more significant impact on their lives, there is a sense that the Catholic Church is no longer relevant in their lives."

Indeed, it is no longer relevant in their lives and the exodus continues.

And as the intolerance of fundamentalism becomes ever more clear, there may be a growing number of participants leaving the exclusive clubs of traditional and elitist religions.

Perhaps Buddhism has a chance after the Abrahamic Divide shows the outcome of intolerance!

Good column. Too much of the supposed 'pro-life' movement has really been about *hurting* women, and children, in the name of ...sexual control.

Little too kinky for me.

I think the debate about who, if anyone, gets to enforce what they say 'God' (or GOP) wants, is absolutely *no* excuse for the 'pro-life' movement to actually be pursuing agendas which *punish* women for unwanted pregnancies, while trying to make sure as many happen as possible by restricting access to and awareness about contraceptives.

Plain as day 'babies' are just an *excuse* when what they really want is *sexual control.*

In my times as Pagan clergy, I've counselled a number of women who found themselves with unexpected pregnancies. The last time anyone I talked to *chose* to have an abortion was back when it was perfectly legit to fire someone for getting pregnant, and also legit to fire them for therefore being forced to have an abortion to not be homeless.

In Pagan belief, motherhood is sacred, and cannot be coerced. But it's also *valued.* I've seen city tribes that might be hard-pressed to remember what a checkbook *looks like* come together around a situation like that.

Punitive hardships such as some Christians (and bishops) want to impose cause they want to use 'abortion' as a *bludgeon* to enforce their will ...don't value motherhood. Or children.

There's *no* reason we can't support mothers better. And if you don't like what it costs, ease up on the gag rules about contraceptives.

Because the pro-life crowd wants it all, they're getting nothing.

Instead of working towards a world where there are no abortions, they insist there be none now.

Instead of working towards eliminating unwanted pregnancies by promoting abstinence *and* birth-control, they insist on abstinence only.

Instead of supporting those poor women who end up choosing an abortion because they can't support a child themselves, they blast her for her poor morals and leave her on her own.

How's this absolutism working out for you pro-lifers? Has your insistence on having it all your own way stopped one abortion, prevented one unwanted pregnancy, supported any woman who can't support an unwanted child?

I'd have to say that you are part of the problem, and none of the solution. Since you are unwilling to compromise with anybody, nobody is willing to compromise with you.

Hello Globalone,

"If you don't want to have a child, don't have sex. Not complicated, is it?"

A bit simple minded for me, and we are such a complex group, no?

If you don't want to have a child, but you do want to have sex, then find a way that you can achieve both those desires. Options are abundant in life to realize multiple ends. The simple equation Sex =
children is invalid.

"The church is against birth control because one of the ways that the pill prevents birth is to dislodge a living embryo from the wall of the uterus.

The dislodgment of a growing viable embryo resulting in the death of that embryo is considered abortion by the catholic church."
Posted by: agapn9

agapn9, If that is the case, why do they oppose barrier methods such as condoms or diaphrams, and voluntary sterilization?

Yes, help mothers-to-be maintain a healthy prenancy. But also, provide the means for that mother to properly care for the child. Job training, day care, housing, psychological support, etc. Without these, the only recourse for survival is, as it has always been throughout history, abortion. Isn't the Catholic Church rich enough to give up some gold statues and real estate for this servanthood? If the CC were to undertake a vow of "poverty" to help a mother-to-be resolve her dilemma and choice, then this proactivity would begin to reduce and pray, even eliminate the abortion scourge.

Hello Bluefish,

"Honest anlysis has to at least acknowledge the possibility that the use of birth control has increased the likelihood of abortion."

Underlying the rationale of using abortion is that it is a possibility to consider and choose. This is not an issue of establishment of a belief in the "right to pleasure for pleasure's sake". Don't be silly. How are you even couching it in terms of a "right"? Sex IS what it is. It is our form of procreation no doubt, but few, (especially young), participants engage in it thinking "Good Lord, I've Gotta make me a baby!" We are driven by hormones and the desire to experience the pleasure that we feel welling up in us. Talk to your Creator as to why He/She made it be so, but so it is.

Birth control is modern technologies that allow us to engage in sexual activity without NEEDING to conceive and give birth to new human life. What is wrong with that intent? Do you believe it is against God to be sexual without reproductive? The value of birth control is unquestionable, to a receptive mind.

Abortion is a modern technology that allows termination of pregnancy. It has become an option that no small percentage of women are choosing, albeit with no small amount of conflict.

There is something utterly natural that humans WANT to be sexual. It is also utterly natural that they seek ways to do so that are easy and burden free. If one can reduce stress and burden while increasing pleasure and freedom, it would be unnatural not to. Indeed, it would seem a bit masochistic not to.

It's a good start. However, I'll bet a donut that Democrats will support it, but Republicans - the so-called "pro-life party" will vote against it, simply because it comes from the Democratic side of the house. That seems to be their pattern lately - they don't have any good ideas of their own, but are shooting down any Democratic ones.

Dad,

"It's not enough to get them through pregnancy and the first few months - and then leave them on their own"

Since when did the citizens of this country become responsible for the CHOICES made by its individuals?

While HR 2035 goes a long way to bridging the divide between us, it circumvents what is arguably the most important tenet of this issue. That there must be a focused effort on educating men and women that they are accountable and responsible for the CHOICES they make.

Killing a child because you're "not in the right place right now" or because, as a single parent, you can't afford another child is a cop-out and a lazy and abhorrent attempt to shirk responsibility and accountability.

If you don't want to have a child, don't have sex. Not complicated, is it?

But if you have sex anyway under the illusion that birth control will always prevent just that, prepare yourself that you will ultimately have to take responsibility for your actions.

I agree wholeheartedly with the other comments that unless there is full support for comprehensive birth control programs and services, this proposal falls far too short. If the Church is interested in finding common ground, it must move beyond the kind of thinking that got the Pope into so much trouble with his condoms comment in Africa.

Otherwise, there are some worthwhile proposals here, though I would like to see much more about long-term programs to support single mothers through their kids' childhoods. It's not enough to get them through pregnancy and the first few months - and then leave them on their own; and yet that seems to be the emphasis of the pro-Life community.

Yonkers, New York
29 April 2009

It is rather late in the day for Thomas J. Reese, S.J. to plead with Catholics and ultra-conservatives that in reality the Church is not against "moderates" as far as the controversial and divisive issue of ABORTION is concerned.

Catholics all over the United States have long been under the enduring impression that the Catholic Church is unyieldingly opposed to abortion, opposed to birth control, opposed to the use of artificial means of family planning, opposed to gay rights, opposed to gay marriage, and opposed to stem cell research.

No desperate appeal by the likes of Thomas J. Reese, S.J. and other Catholics (who must be appalled at the number of Catholics who have drifted out of the Church into other religious denominations) will be able to stop the trend which is gaining momentum.

To these people who have drifted away terribly disillusioned and disenchanted with the Catholic Church's obviously neurotic fixation with these highly divisive social issues, to the total neglect of other political, economic and social issues that have a more significant impact on their lives, there is a sense that the Catholic Church is no longer relevant in their lives.

Mariano Patalinjug

The catholic church is not against education.

The church is against birth control because one of the ways that the pill prevents birth is to dislodge a living embryo from the wall of the uterus.

The dislodgment of a growing viable embryo resulting in the death of that embryo is considered abortion by the catholic church.

They still don't get it. Women will have an abortion for economic reasons not because they can't afford the hospital care, its because they will not be able to support the child once it is born, to raise, feed, cloth and shelter the child. And a baby would probably mean not being able to work. These are the things going through the minds of a woman who finds out she is pregnant, especially unwed mothers.

If you want to stop abortions start with education and contraception, then make life for a mother who works possible. America has made great strides in the past 30 years in providing child care. But more can be done. No woman should have to worry about bringing a child into the world. If you want to limit abortions you need to be prepared to help support the children.

Every Catholic church should have a daycare center free to its members and at a small cost to non-members. Why don't they? It would go a long way to reducing abortions.

Honest anlysis has to at least acknowledge the possibility that the use of birth control has increased the likelihood of abortion.

The reasoning is this: Underlying the rationale of using abortion is the conviction that one has the right to sex for pleasure only, without the responsibility of possible consequences. Once that "right to pleasure for pleasure's sake" is established, any failure that occurs is clearly unwanted and therefore subject to elimination.

There is clearly something wrong with such "free love." In fact, given that a human being is unwanted and consequently destroyed, one might call the process "free hate."

Wow. This is the same group that derided Obama and his followers as "pro-abortion" when complaining of his invitation by Notre Dame to speak at its commencement?

Perhaps they've determined that intransigence is not an effective policy? That's a good sign, and society could well benefit as a result.

I notice there is no mention of birth control in the text. Any group that is sincere about eliminating abortion should assure women's access to birth control, pre- and post-pregnancy.

I didn't See anything about birth control or education. Both would lower the numbers of abortions.

This is a wonderful step in the right direction. There are a lot of aspects to being prolife, and a lot of reasons women choose to abort. It makes sense to me to work on helping pregnant women create safe, healthy environments into which they would want to have their babies. "Prolife" should not just apply to the unborn, also -- it should apply to babies, children, adults and the elderly in equal measure. Otherwise it risks becoming an empty and pointlessly divisive issue characterized more by anger and judgment than any good it is really doing in the world.

Amen