J Street and the perils of Jewish critique

So let us talk, then, you and I
Ruled not by anger, nor by fear
Pursue the what, the how, the why
To look at what is now and here
That Moving Finger has gone by
Nor can we call it back again
No matter how we weep and cry
Move onward now, dismiss the pain.

OK, Farnaz, let's try to communicate, not debate. As Churchill famously said, "It's better to jaw-jaw than to war-war."

If we are going to attempt this, I would ask that you not speak in rhetoric, but in plain talk. Demosthenes I am not, nor Cicero either.

Yes, my first post to you here pulled no punches. But reading your posts to the offenders, neither did you. Was either of us justified in our language? I would say no - the anger, again, only builds walls.

I remember the Civil Rights Movement well, having grown up in the South. I was raised to be totally tolerant, but I learned very early on how dangerous it was to argue with bigots. I got in the habit of not confronting them, even while letting my own position be known. Better to teach by example, which is also how I practice my religion.

A mea culpa here - I usually ignore posts by those I consider obvious bigots. I continue to engage you, despite any problems that I have with you, and they are as many as you have with me - because I detect an inquiring mind, which may, like a bottle of Piper Heidsieck Brut, need to be uncorked. I also always look for the good in people - if I think it is there, I give the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps you think of me in a similar manner, but I guess I just flatter myself.

So let it be dialog, not disaster, agape, not anger.

Yes, let's leave it there for now.

"Elie Wiesel. I am not Elie Wiesel. Do you recall what happened when he blogged here one time? I wonder."
I remember it well - you were holding forth as normal, bashing all who had contrary opinions. I tried to tell you that Elie, may God bless him, had suffered much more than you, but did not complain.
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Arminius, this is part of my point. Reread the thread. I responded, reacted. Rhetoric. You did not take offense at the postings of Whistling, et al, horrible, wretched assaults on Wiesel and Jews, but only at my defensive replies.

These replies are strategic. They will continue so long as antisemitic rhetoric pervades WaPo. This sort of thing should be quite familiar to you. You have lived through the African American Civil Rights Movement, have you not?

You:A first read of that implies very strongly that you are saying that Jews are superior and run the world. A second read yields.... what? What are you trying to say here? Taking that paragraph literally only leads to horror, and I refuse to tread that road.

Me: A first read should have indicated that these are the sorts of posts we deal with every day. As I mention later on:

"We are the Jewish neocons of Garak, who were behind the Iraq and Afghanistan invasion. We are your Jews of Wall Street. Your Jews, Arminius, of whom you've blogged.

We are the Jewish leftists of the ACLU, of ChrisFord, the ones who protect the evil Muslims."
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Jews have to read this sort of thing every day. I do, our children do. It's mere insanity. All it says for any sane person is that Jews are different from one another. In this, do they differ from Christians?
_________________
You: YOur speech to me has been hideous, at times. Surely, you know this. Read your first post to me on this thread. I could give many examples.
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Read Garak's first post to me. As I said, I know the bloggers to whom I posted. Again, my strategy is my strategy. Garak posts in this manner all the time. As do some of the others who are a bit more restrained of late.

Ask yourself, as in the case of all the hate to which I replied on the Wiesel thread you assaulted me, not the bigots.

When Blacks used aggressive language with Whites during the MOvement, did you criticize Blacks, having never replied to the Whites, as you never responded to the racists on Wiesel's thread?

I could add more examples. Ask yourself why the attacked who responds is more offensive to you than the attackers?

YOu need not reply to any of this. I haven't posted it to challenge you or to win an argument. You seem to wish to communicate, so we can start here, if you'd like.

Let's leave it here for now, Arminius. We can take up the other issues at another time if you'd like.

To Farnaz, Part 1

Farnaz,

I will try to understand your post, taking it a bit at a time. I will do my best to be objective - surprised? yeah, me too. Your comments will be in italics, my replies in normal typeface. I don't think I will make much headway, you speak in riddles.

"You do not understand what any of this is about. I do not understand why you do not understand, although I have some ideas, none of which bode well for your grasping what this thread is about."
Right you are, I am lost. What you say might well be, as far as my understanding goes, a message captured by SETI. That is not a criticism, it is a measure of my bewilderment.

"Elie Wiesel. I am not Elie Wiesel. Do you recall what happened when he blogged here one time? I wonder."
I remember it well - you were holding forth as normal, bashing all who had contrary opinions. I tried to tell you that Elie, may God bless him, had suffered much more than you, but did not complain.

"Some of the regulars were in attendance, Whistling, for example, Garak, AIPAC, Patrick3, et al. Do they have something in common, Arminius?"
I don't know what they have in common, I don't remember them well except that they did not seem too pleasant. I should read Garak's posts here, I only scanned them.

"Do you have something in common with them? Do you still read the "OT"?"
I rarely read the Hebrew Scriptures. I am aware of stuff there that is beautiful and meaningful, it ain't all blood and guts.

"It is not my literal life that troubles you. It is all the Is, all the Farnaz's, all of us--white, brown, black. African, Middle Eastern, Asian, European."
What the hell does that have to do with me? I thrive on diversity. At the last place I worked, I was, as an old white guy, in a definite minority, in race, age, sex, nationality, and religion. I loved it.

To Farnaz, Part 2

"We control the economy. We determine when the US goes to war. We are the Jewish neocons of Garak, who were behind the Iraq and Afghanistan invasion. We are your Jews of Wall Street. Your Jews, Arminius, of whom you've blogged."
A first read of that implies very strongly that you are saying that Jews are superior and run the world. A second read yields.... what? What are you trying to say here? Taking that paragraph literally only leads to horror, and I refuse to tread that road.

"We are the Jewish leftists of the ACLU, of ChrisFord, the ones who protect the evil Muslims."
See previous comment.

"I know the bloggers I posted to here. I've seen them before, when I came on as just Farnaz, not Farnaz the Jew. I saw them then. I see them now. Some of them I saw in Iran, but never, not when they were murdering Ismael, did they speak as they do on WaPo. That speech I waited to hear in America.
The speech here can be really bad, agreed. Many are guilty, and that number includes you and I. Anger is no way to get true communication going, I have at least finally learned that. Am I consistent about it? No.

"You will not understand a word I'm saying, but I can only tell you this. It has nothing to do with me, as a single person, or with my daughter, or even with the IRG murdered Ismael, may God rest his soul."
I do not understand, true. I have no concept of what it has to do with. I don't understand your reference to IRG - Iranian Republican Guard? Was Ismael the one whom they murdered?

So what are you trying to say? I am not very adept at reading minds. Call me stupid if you will, but I always try to learn.

"It is about you. About Whistling and Garak, far more, but it is about you.
About Jews? Not at all. Never was. Not since Constantine. Not for 2,000 years."
I never said it was about Jews. Only about me? So what about me? Why are you exempting yourself - all my fault? None of us are innocent, and whoever has been captured by the past has no future.

Garak,

Sorry about the spelling, but I'm posting hastily. Money would help us with our Ethiopian sisters and brothers. Even a few dollars. That's what most can give these days, but it helps. As I said, money is pouring in from Jews, rich and poor, some quite poor, as well as from the Israeli government, but the need is enormous.

Again, now that the Sudanese aren't holding and torturing fleeing Ethiopian Jews the mood has improved.

As I also posted, if the Ethiopian Jews, on whom I've posted here endlessly, really do interest you, there is much to learn.

They are the most patriotic of Israel's Jews. Assimilation, however, has been difficult for some of them and now there are conflicts within the community between the less and the more assimilated.

This is how it always is with the new generations. HOwever, they are home. Thank God, they are home in Israel.

Anything will help them. Five dollars would help.

Garak,

Notwithstanding that you're a joke, my post on the Ethiopian Jews is valid. The situation is improving, but there need is enormous.

Whatever you can contribute would help. WE contribute and, believe me, we have no money. I have worked with Ethiopian Jewish academics in Israel and here. Funds are pooring in but more are needed.

Now, that there are no more fleeing Ethiopia, being held and tortured in Sudan, the mood in the community has improved, as it has throughout Israel, on the Ethiopians' behalf.

However, we still need money. Anything would help.

Garak,

You're just digging yourself in deeper. But go ahead, little man, dig.

You have no concern for Muslims anywhere, no nothing about Muslims, less about Jews, nada about either religion.

You are a trivial nazi wannabe who likes the word Nazi. My Muslim relatives, btw., find you amusing. Have posted to you on WaPo.

You're a joke.

Farnaz1Mansouri1 wrote "Now that Garak has revealed himself for what he is"...just like you? Oh, poor little Farnaz1Mansouri1, there's something called sarcasm. It's part of something called...rhetoric! Parroting you to make the point that your rants are...rants is...(drum roll, please)...rhetoric! You know, dear Farnaz1Mansouri1, you might try it one day.

Farnaz1Mansouri1 wrote: "Gauleiter Garak." Oh my, how original! But let's look at the "logic" (and I use the term loosely) of Farnaz1Mansouri1: Garak criticizes Israel. Critics of Israel are Nazis. Therefore, Garak is a Nazi.

Now, this is typical of the Israel Uber Alles crowd. Instead responding with facts and reason, they immediately smear and attack. It would be pitiful if it wasn't disgusting. And it's absolutely typical of supporters of Israel. When your case is intellectually bankrupt, go ad hominem.

You're knowledgeable about Ethiopean Jews? If so, where are your facts, your arguments that Israel treats them as fully Jewish and fully Israeli? Try reading this article from the leading Israeli daily Haaretz: "Olmert: Ethiopian Jews are right to feel discriminated against." Haaretz, 09/12/2007 (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/932618.html). You may not know this, but at the time Olmert was Prime Minister of Israel. Wait, another Nazi criticizing Israel! Go get him! Attack! Smear! He's an Israeli Jew? A self-hating Israeli Jew!

Farnaz1Mansouri1 ranted: "Why, Garak, Ma'am, how could I forget St. John of the Cross, Jew hater, early Sturmer type racist christer propagandist."

Why do you assume I'm a Christian? I'm not.

"Miss Garak". Another mindless rant. Is that all you have?

It's good to know I and others have hit a sore point with you. Your mindless and infantile rants prove our points.

Shalom!

"Arminius,

You do not understand what any of this is about."

Of course he does not. He is a very sick man, attempting to cure his tortured soul with alcohol.

Pity him.

Israel has unquestionable problems. A state ostensibly democratic but actually Jew centered striving to exist surrounded by enemies vastly numerically superior which oscillates between self-criticism and self-justification...Israel is threatened by both war and demographics. If it becomes truly democratic it ceases to exist as a Jewish state because the relatively few Jews will be overwhelmed. If it continues to be more right wing it just faces more criticism and hatred by enemies. No easy solution. In such a situation extreme sensitivity to criticism is understood. We can expect more self-criticism and self-justification as things become more difficult. It really is a question if there will be a Jewish state in the future. There really is the danger that there will not be a Jewish state. No easy answer to the problems of Israel.

Arminius,

I think we crossed posts. I'm not whining. I'm saying that you don't understand. I've been trying to say it tactfully.

It isn't me that you don't understand. It is you.

You, Arminius.

Try to listen. Look at the what you fixate on. Look, objectively, at what you missed in my post.

I am asking this for you, Arminius. I don't exist, not in your actuality.

Have you ever read Berryman's "The Imaginary Jew"? If you're interested, you might find it on google. If not, I'll get it to you through David Waters if you want it.

REREAD my post. Look at what you didn't comment on.

I am the Imaginary Jew. Every Jew is the Imaginary Jew.

I have simply turned the tables, Arminius. It's rhetoric.

Arminius,

Goodnight. God bless you.

Farnaz

As usual, Farnaz, you only blame, and miss the point. This concerns us all. We are all in this mess together. Why do you continually seek enemies, when you could find allies? My only enemies are those who hate. Division only makes things worse. But apparently that is what you thrive on. Try reaching out, instead of whining about not being understood.

We're all God's children, can't you see?
It's not us and them, but WE and WE!

Arminius,

You do not understand what any of this is about. I do not understand why you do not understand, although I have some ideas, none of which bode well for your grasping what this thread is about.

Elie Wiesel. I am not Elie Wiesel. Do you recall what happened when he blogged here one time? I wonder.

Some of the regulars were in attendance, Whistling, for example, Garak, AIPAC, Patrick3, et al. Do they have something in common, Arminius?

Do you have something in common with them?
Do you still read the "OT"?

It is not my literal life that troubles you.
It is all the Is, all the Farnaz's, all of us--white, brown, black. African, Middle Eastern, Asian, European.

We control the economy. We determine when the US goes to war. We are the Jewish neocons of Garak, who were behind the Iraq and Afghanistan invasion. We are your Jews of Wall Street. Your Jews, Arminius, of whom you've blogged.

We are the Jewish leftists of the ACLU, of ChrisFord, the ones who protect the evil Muslims.

I know the bloggers I posted to here. I've seen them before, when I came on as just Farnaz, not Farnaz the Jew. I saw them then. I see them now. Some of them I saw in Iran, but never, not when they were murdering Ismael, did they speak as they do on WaPo. That speech I waited to hear in America.

You will not understand a word I'm saying, but I can only tell you this. It has nothing to do with me, as a single person, or with my daughter, or even with the IRG murdered Ismael, may God rest his soul.

NOthing to do with them. The reality, Arminius, is that it only concerns you. It only concerns Garak. And Whistling. And AIPAC, and Xavisev, and ChrisFord, and all the rest.

It is about you. About Whistling and Garak, far more, but it is about you.

About Jews? Not at all. Never was. Not since Constantine. Not for 2,000 years.

It is about you, Arminius. That is all I can say to you, do for you.

Farnaz,

The fact that you are alive does me no harm. That cannot do harm. It is a blessing.

You are incapable of harming me. I only take offense at the harm you do to others.

Understood that you and your daughter have suffered harm. So have others, you are not alone. And even survivors of the Shoah, such as Elie Wiesel, have come to terms with the horror that they endured, and exhibit no hatred. I urge you to do the same.

I do thank you for making a personal reply.

Arminius,

I have no desire to go after you. I don't think you want to understand. And I'm okay with that.

That's your right. There aren't many brown Jewish women to haunt you in the middle of the night where you live. I am only a virtual being.

I am indebted to those who allowed me to go on living in the actual. Ismael was not so lucky. My daughter was hurt worse than I will say. But she is alive.

That is the only harm I do you, Arminius. I am alive.

Oh, yes, Onofrio. I am 'bemused' that the Commissar drafted one of her second-string acolytes to go after me, since she has not the courage any more to face me in person. The last time she and I fought, she fled, and sent Schaum to do the dirty work.

Enjoy your bemusement, Onofrio. Anyone who applauds what Farnaz has done here is beneath contempt.

Arminius,

You only turn up to air your obsessive ire about Farnaz.

Makes you seem a sad, catty old monomaniac.

Does you no credit.

And given that my posts have been relatively scarce of late, your castigation of myself just looks...bemusing.

"On Faith", huh? Why not just retitle it "ON Left-wing Politics"?

Well, Commissar Farnaz, I sadly see that your hatred has dug a hole in your self-generated cesspool and achieved new depths of depravity. And, of course, all your arse-kissing minions are cheering at your vitriol. That last makes me really sad, I had hopes at least for Onofrio. No longer, he's an arse-licker like the rest.

Your assorted putrid hatred and ad hominem attacks turn my stomach, and, if I did not already know many decent and moral Jews, I would surely become antisemitic, simply because of you. But I won't, even though you already believe I am, just because I have called you out on your insecurity-bred acid throwing attacks.

Onofrio,

Here is something that will make you chuckle. My overly intellectual nine-year-old, happier since she befriended neighbor dog, Plautus, was asked to write a paper about the most beautiful thing she had ever seen. Since we were competing for the computer, I saw her first few paragraphs. Her topic was "the Other." Predictable prose for a nine-year-old fourth grader cum graduate student. I tried to subtly inquire on stylistic possibilities: "Honey, why not liven it up a bit, with, say an anecdote or two?"

No answer. I disappeared. At all events, I knew nothing of the finished product until parent-teacher's night. My girl's teacher began talking about her, but then suddenly digressed: "I'm sorry, Dr. Mansouri, but Az was right. You are beautiful."

It seems that dottir's essay on the most beautiful thing she'd ever seen, "the Other," was yours truly. Moreover, she had attached a picture and won a state-wide competition.

She had mentioned none of this to either of us. I took a copy home from the parent-teacher meeting and we read it, her father and I, and we cried, both of us.

She had enchanted the language, words blossomed, smiled, metaphor. I was astonished. I tried to talk to her about it, but she just asked me if she had to go to the awards ceremony, and if so, would we go to. (!!!)

Yeah, her father said. Why not. Sure, we'll go. No problem.

Frankly, I have no idea if she realized he was joking, or cared. Who is the miracle girl of ours?

Clever, shrewd, misleading and untruthful . .
The old Oliver Twist cartoon stereotype of Fabian unfortunately still fits many Jews, like Goldfarb. Just as the old KKK stereotype still fits right wing activists like Beck and Limbaugh.

Posted by: lufrank1
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Interesting. Unfortunately, the old American Protestant cartoons still fit many Catholics then, would you say? I'm thinking of Charles Keating of the Keating Savings and Loan Keatings?

Vicious, greedy, sneaky, and, murderous

The six Catholics who just pulled off the biggest insider trading scam in history?

Do the Muslim cartoons of Christians fit the AIG Christians, Enron Christians, CTI, Countrywide Christians?

Or, unfortunately, would something else fit them. What do you think? I ask because Madoff stole exclusively from Jews, Jewish schools etc., while your Christians stole form everyone and sent the world into a catastrophic depression.

Cartoons for them, those Christians/Catholics who the rest of us non Christians are bailing out?

Are there cartoons or something else for your Christian Haliburton Cheney, Christian Bush, BP Blair, et al, who not only stole millions, but killed two million innocent Muslims for oil.

I'm just askin'

Thanks Onofrio, really. I honestly don't know how Garak, Whistling AIP, Patrick3, et al, keep up this level of vitriol. Ditto, several whom we have fequently seen on this blog.

I might include, in my pondering, a couple for whom you have unlocked your word hoard. Three, in fact.

Of course, they, Christians,Catholics see no racism in their posts, see me as a racist. I, you see, am in denial. One actually posted this, despite her tiredness of the Jews, her exhaustion with their control of the economy, etc.

Once a few weeks ago, I actually wished I had not been born Jewish. With everything I saw in Iran, with the attack on my girl, I never had such a desire. Never wanted to be anything but brown either and still don't.

A writer that Susan Jacoby thinks she knows (she's a nice white Catholic atheist lady--Susan--smart, probably good--I like her) Philip Roth, over whom we battled, wrote heart-breakingly about how being Jewish in America had destroyed him.

It is this sort of thing that most cultural Christians cannot understand.

But you and Schaum understand. Perhaps, then, the real question is why you do, not why they don't.

Clever, shrewd, misleading and untruthful . .
The old Oliver Twist cartoon stereotype of Fabian unfortunately still fits many Jews, like Goldfarb. Just as the old KKK stereotype still fits right wing activists like Beck and Limbaugh.

Garak, Whistling, AIP, Patrick3, and their ilk,

Now that Garak has revealed himself for what he is, has dropped the phony politesse he managed to summon for a brief instant, has posted much as he always does (other such posts available on request), my rhetorical hate-speech supply has been depleted.

Perhaps it is coincidence. At all events, unlike Garak and Whistling, and others named in earlier posts on this thread, this sort of rhetoric is unnatural for me, draining, and I've got work to do. I learned everything I know about this kind of speech from the persons I mention in my post to Byrd3. I'm still learning.

Garak, Whistling, Patrick3 et al are my teachers. They and their progeny shall always be with us.

So go right ahead, Garak, et al, Have an antisemitic party.

Of course, I will catch up with you.

Long before C Street arrives, long before
M Street shows up.

Btw., Garak, I see you support J street. They'll be delighted to read this thread. Maybe reading it even as I write.

Later.

Hmmm.....

C Street?

The "moral" Christians/Catholics from C Street?

Still waiting....

Just a few more words, Gauleiter Garak,

I learned to use the word Nazi from you. You just can't help yourself using it in reference to Jews. You've done it on this blog and all over WaPo, for quite awhile. Posts available on request. I responded to you.

NOw, Garak, was all this calling Jews Nazis, your Nazi way of saying that you are welcoming us into your Aryan Club?

Don't quite know how to tell you this, but err, no thanks.

But since your Nazi self is so interested in Ethiopian Jews, of whom, I've posted a great deal, as you know, of whom, I'm quite knowledgeable, to whom I'm related, you could certainly help us there.

How much could you donate? There isn't enough in the world, but we give, and we are not a well off family.

HOw much? Anything would help. Tell me and I'll arrange for the money to go where it needs to. YOu would get a government reciept, etc.

Why, Garak, Ma'am, how could I forget St. John of the Cross, Jew hater, early Sturmer type racist christer propagandist.

And then there was Luther.

Hatred just runs in your Christer blood, your God-hating genes doesn't it. It's your history, sistuh.

Hitler loves you, Garak. He forgives you. Fr. Tiso, too. And Luther and death loving St John.

They forgive you. LOve the sins, love the sinner, love you, Garak ma'am.

Keep up that child raping, lady!

Did I say Garka, Miss Garak? I meant Gargoyle, Ma'am, Sister Garak. Pig.

Oh, and Father, Reverend, Imam, Garka, Miss,
I'm not a man, Lady.

Garak:

Do you drink the blood of Muslim children on Passover?

BTW, whatever happened to the Amorites? You know, the people eliminated in the Yahweh-ordered genocide, as claimed in the Jewish holy texts? Was Moses the Jewish Archbishop Trifa? Just askin'.
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Do you rape little Catholic boys and girls?
ARe you a Salesian? Who is Yahweh?

Was Christ the Hitler of the first century?
Are you still crucifying him? Don't you drink real blood during your masses?

What was John the Baptist really doing in the water with JC et al?

Do you get annoyed when your christer self steps on the hands of the Muslims you slaughtered in Afghanistan? In Iraq?

Do you still have your table and chairs made of Jewish flesh and bones inherited from your daddy Nazi? That would be your Nazi altar boy?

Did you get back your Christian blood money from the Iranians yet?

From Chairman Pedophile Arafat? Did you keep as souvenirs all the bone fragments of dead Jewish children killed on school buses, synagogues, beaches, downtown Tel Aviv, Sbarro's, etc."

Yunno, did you get your Christer BP dividend check?

Just askin'

Byrd3:

Perhaps, I misunderstood you. Are you simply saying that you're antisemitic?

Byrd3:

Your post:

"If the Jewish people criticize themselves, does that make them anti-semetic? It sure does if I do..."

Garak,

Now, Garak, I had actually, just posted on how you and your fellow racists have not sunk to your usual level of swamp-thing rhetoric.

So, tell me Garak, how much time have you spent with Ethiopian Jews? What can you tell us of their culture? How they were rescued?

Can you explain the efforts Israel made to help them assimilate? Can you tell me where Israel thought it went wrong? How they are trying to rectify the problem?

You ask if Madoff is a hero in Israel. My guess is he isn't. He cheated many innocent people, Jews, by the way, exclusively.

Now your co-Christian genocider Bush is a heor in your Christian country, I see. Your six Catholics who pulled off the biggest insider trading scam in history a few weeks ago are they, your co-religionists heros in your church? Your neighborhood?

Your AIG Christians, who we "bailed out" Heros for you? Your CTI Christian? Your Christian Countrywide? Etc.

Your heros? And the Middle East nations that practiced ethnic cleansing on us, your heros?

Your heros, the IRG who murdered our family friend in front of me?

YOur heros, pedophile shielding Popes and Cardinals?

Your favorite word all over WaPo is nazi.
I'm not surprised. The Nazis were, after all, Orthodox, Protestant, and Catholic. Many still are.

Farnaz1Mansouri1 is a great example of what we're talking about. Criticize Israel and you're a Nazi. Pathetic. Infantile. But typical.

I have bad news for you, Rabbi Farnaz1Mansouri1, Israel isn't perfect. Jews aren't superior to goys. Get used to it.

Tell us, is dropping bombs on Palestinian children a mitzvah? Do you celebrate when the IDF bulldozes a house on a Palestinian grandmother? Do you drink the blood of Muslim children on Passover? Is Bernie Madoff a hero of Israel?

BTW, whatever happened to the Amorites? You know, the people eliminated in the Yahweh-ordered genocide, as claimed in the Jewish holy texts? Was Moses the Jewish Archbishop Trifa? Just askin'.

Truth hurts, buddy. Maybe one day you'll be able to handle it. But I doubt it. And in the meantime, you'll rant incoherently and label the entire world as anti-semites.

The sickness and lunacy of your posts confirms that you're dead wrong.

sharonsj1: Prof. Sand does NOT say that Jews descended from converts, such as Khazars, are not Jews. On the contrary, he insists they are fully Jewish and full Jews, as much as the descendants of the ancient Israelites. Just look at how the Israeli rabbinate discriminates against the diaspora Jews who are not Orthodox. Were you to marry a goy who converted under a Conservative or Reformed rabbi, your new spouse would not be considered a Jew in Israel. Prof. Sand says that's improper.

Further, look at the discrimination suffered by Ethiopian Jews in Israel. They are not considered fully Jewish in Israel. Again, Prof. Sand says that's wrong (and un-Jewish).

Prof. Sand argues simply that most Jews from Europe and the Middle East are descendants of converts, and not of ancient Israelites. He points out that this undercuts completely the Right of Return because they are not returning to their ancestral homeland, but rather to the ancestral homeland of others.

Prof. Sand then explains that the ancient Israelites were never expelled by the Romans, but stayed. If this is correct, he reaches the inevitable conclusion that those living in Palestine whom the Zionists encountered--the Muslim and Christian Palestinians--were the descendants of the ancient Israelites. If this is correct, then how can Israel deny them full citizenship?

Try reading The Invention Of The Jewish People. It wasn't on the Israeli best-seller lists for nothing.

I never said I was Jewish. And so far as I know, being Jewish was not a prerequisite for this open discussion. But then I forgot that you were the all-knowing protector of Jewish integrity.

: Byrd3:

I wish I could say nice try, but yours wasn't.
Perhaps, "Jewish Person" you would be so kind as to answer the questions I posed to your co-Fake Jew, Onestring?

As for my rhetoric, I learned everything I know from the Christians, first, and then from the Muslims.

I must tell you that even when the Iranian Revolutionary Guard was dragging our beloved friend Ismael from our home, they did not use the racist language I've become accustomed to among the AmeriChristians/Catholics and US MUslims, recently from Pakistani Muslims.

Even when the IRG was murdering Ismael in front of my sister and me, little girls at the time, even as his blood was spattering on our clothes, even as we were screaming and screaming and screaming, the IRG did not use the language that the Christians, Catholics, Muslims of America use with Jews.

I've had good teachers.

ONestring:

You are as Jewish as Pope Bennie. Funny thing one never sees fake Jewish gentiles in actuality, only on blogs. So far we have two fake Jews on this thread. No doubt, more will follow. From now on, I' m going to trace them as they appear on WaPo blogs. Getting some help will not be problematic. It will make an instructive study.

Easy to backtrack as well. Lots of data. Interesting.

What would C Street say?

What would M Street say?

Gee Farnaz1Mansouri1: I misspell one little word and I'm ignorant, yet you sprinkle your response with profanity and insults to display your intelligence and brilliant command of the English language. Why don't you try to proof read with glaucoma and see how accurate you are with every post. Are Jews not people and are they not a significant homogenous group. There was certainly no insult intended there. But you are right about at least one thing: Some of the threaders are pretty darn ignorant, so you should feel right at home.

Onestring:

Okay, I admit it was a tough question. But you say you are Jewish. Fine.

Reread your post. Here's an easy question. What might Akiva say?

Very easy question for any Jew anywhere.

ONestring:

YOu are Jewish. So am I. What passage would you think Rashi would draw on in this debate?

IHateLogins:

Could it just possibly be that the Christians, lying, spying, exploitation, mass murder in Iraq and Afghanistan, etc., child molesting clergy are evil?

Could that be?

When Israel no longer treats the Palestinians as we were treated in europe, and around the rest of the globe before the founding of Israel, I'll stop criticizing.

Close 100% of the settlements regardless of where they stand, or whom they house. Make east Jerusalem the capital of Soverign Palestine, and stop pissing off terrorists who then come after the US because we support Israel's hypocrisy.

I'm Jewish. I'm just not a supporter of the immoral occupation, nor the radical fundamentalist religious parties who effectively control the Israeli government's anti-US/anti-Palestinian/immoral UN-JEWISH actions.

IHateLogins:

Oh, but the vast majority of the world hate Christians due to America and Europe. They hate Christians for their endless genocides, hypocrisy, child molesting churches.

They are despised throughout the MIddle East, much of Asia.

Whoops, would I be politically incorrect to say that perhaps the Christians, just maybe, are going at things in the wrong way.

C Steet, please.

"Goldfarb wonders why Jews who claimed to be pro-Israel, needed to join that deafening chorus."

Yes, well, the vast majority of the world being opposed to Israel's actions certainly POINTS to Israel being completely right, but let's just imagine a possible alternative: maybe it isn't anti semitism that makes so many people disgusted with Israel, maybe, JUST MAYBE, it's that people think Israel's policies are evil.

In such a case, shouldn't the question be why more Jewish organizations don't stand up against such extremist policies? Isn't that what we ask of Muslims, to stand against the extreme in their religion\ethnicity?

Oh, but that would be politically incorrect to do of Jewish organizations. Whoops. :)

Lest I forget for those on C Street, whenever they show up.

Patrick the Nazi is a great fan of the Nazi Pope and the Pedophile protector Cardinal Lavada, who first bankrupted the archdiocese of Portland by protecting Pedophile priests, and then want on to do the same for the San Francisco ARchdiocese, who at the time, a few years ago, had the largest known priest pedophile ring in the United States: The Salesians, aka Lavada's boys.

Lavada witnessed pedophilia occurring, but denied it, hid, lied to authorities and otherwise obstructed justice. When a decent priest, Conly, finally blew the whistle on Lavada, he tried to destroy him.
Ended up paying Conly 750,000 instead.

Good for Conly. Cardinal Pedophile Protector Lavada was summoned to Rome by the Nazi Pope to oversee priest pedophile cases all over the world, this because he just did so much good for us here in the US.
Pedophile Lover Cardinal is now the number 2 man in Rome. It is to him that disaffected Anglicans will apply.

Here is Patrick3, Catholic, a Nazi, like Mengele, Hitler, and Pope Bennie, a pedophile protector lover.

His comments on WaPo are straight out of Die Sturmer, fond memories for Bennie the Pope. I'm sure Lavada would enjoy them too.

C Street....Oh....C Street....Any comments from a moral Catholic? If there is one? Besides Conly, and the few we know from books?

C Street web site, please. Anyone?

Gee, Jacques,

Now is where mea maxima culpa would be appropriate. If possible, I will dig up some recent postings of CatholoNazi Patrick3, who along with xavisev (Christian Orthodox), AIPAC
(species unkown), Whistling (species not of earth), Garak (from under a tree), ChrisFord (Catholic), Robert James (Catholic) are old-time racists. Fair to say, however, that Chris Ford is not the worst among them, and Robert James has a moral faculty.

Pat the Cat-Lic has nada. Don't ask him about C street.

He's still watching Sesame Street, throwing things at the creatures he dislikes.

He is the epitome of hatred, unqualified, pure immoral Catholic Nazi hatred. Right out of Hitler's Diary.

Any of you moral Catholics from C Street who want to see posts of Patrick and comment, just let us know.

C Street....We're waiting to hear from you....

Truth is strong and fearless. It's like the true north on your moral compass. Lies cower and seek cover. When you cower and seek cover that's a sign that you're off course and it's really nobody's fault but your own.

Gee, nothing yet from anybody on M Street.

Oh, and C Street?

If the Jewish people criticize themselves, does that make them anti-semetic? It sure does if I do...

Posted by: Byrd3
-----------------
Well Byrd3, I've never met a Jew who uses the phrase "Jewish people" except sarcastically or contemptuously. Never met a Jew who can't spell antisemitic.

Ergo, you are not a Jew. So, what did you think you'd accomplish with your b.s. post.

Jacques may not have believed me, at first, when I began to explain the quality of most of the threaders he'd find here. Thanks for increasing my credibility.

Jacqes,

Mea culpa. Mea maxima culpa. Add to the ChristoNaxi illiterate list this thing:
AIPACiswar |

Btw., since, Jacques you are amused by A.Holes exposing themselves as such, consider that those on the list I forwarded believe the AIPAC myth.

LOL. I AM THE GREATEST! (Sound familiar? To you, perhaps, but not to Nazis such as those on my list. They do not listen to black men speak, whoever the are, whatever their religious affiliations or lack thereof.

And, Jacques, speaking of illiterates, one such Red, here, claims he's a colleague of yours. He "esteems" you, Jacques.

red21

Re: Your post

Incoherent. I know quite a few Georgetown profs. I hope to god you're not saying you're among them.

Perhpas, you could translate into English for the rest of us.

Also, I'd be interested in hearing what you could tell me about M Street and C Street, how the immoral among the Ms and Cs view them, etc.

If the Jewish people criticize themselves, does that make them anti-semetic? It sure does if I do...

Is Sand another one of those idiots who says that Jews aren't really Jews? Just because some of my ancestors may have converted to Judaism a few hundred years ago doesn't mean that I am not Jewish. Do you go up to Christians and tell them that because their pagan ancestors converted to Christianity in the 17th century that they aren't real Christians? Total crap. As long as the Muslims call for the death of Israel and Jews everywhere, I'll be supporting Israel despite J Street. And while we're at it, don't forget that numerous Arab countries actually practice apartheid (Jordan, Saudi Arabia, etc.) while Israel's enemies profit from the false propaganda that Israel is an apartheid state. Also, the last time I was in Egypt, 20 years ago, if you went outside a large city, the rest of the country was still in the 11th century. Compare this to the modernization of Israel.

I watched extensive J Steet meetings on C-Span and said to myself thank goodness, here's some brilliant Jews with their heads screwed on straight.

The ugly, evil, neocon take on Israel is not going to stand without criticism by some of the smartest folks I've heard, bravo to J Street, they are the voice of truth on Jewish and Israeli political affairs.

It is interesting that my esteemed Georgetown U colleague Professor Berlinerblau posits a conflict between Jewish moral concern and the interests of Israel. If that conflict exists, what is the moral justification for preferring the ihterests of Israel (as interpreted, of course, by those who defend its policies with automaton like responses, and who are not very deep or long in reflectiveness) to
their own moral impulses?

Jacques,

Last question for now:

What does M Street have to say about the ethnic cleansing of the following countries, statistics to follow:

Egypt (four Jews remaining)
Tunisia,
Afghanistan
Iran
Iraq
Morrocco
Syria
Yemen, where less than three hundred remain and are under protection of the military until they can get out from under the Nazis

M Street on the Jews killed? Tortured?

M Street on their homes and land stolen? Their propety?
________________
Israel:

M Street on the synagogue bombings, statistics to follow

The school buses blown up?

The beaches bombed?

Downtown Tel Aviv Bombed (Note Istael did not attack Afghanistan and kill one million in response.)

Sbarro's?

University of Jerusalem?

Etc., etc.

Articles, stats, links forthcoming.

M Street on the above, please.

Jacques,

On to a serious matter. Did you know that Garak, Xavisev, and Whistling are the grandchildren of Archbishop Valerian Trifa?

It took a bit of detective work, quite a bit, actually, but I had help.

When I say Nazi, I mean Nazi.

Jacques,

Do you ever read the threads of your essays? Do you get a kick out of morons? I mean, I would too, but I teach in a school a step or two down from Georgetown, and, frankly, I get my fill.

Yes, they are comical, the ChristoIslamoNazis like Garak, if you find illiteracy amusing. Perhaps, you're the type that enjoys seeing people fall off chairs and break their legs.

I just wish the Nazis, or more accurately, their progeny, like the Nazi Garak, and his co-Nazi moron dog, Bruf (ruff brruff ruff), would not continually embarrass themselves.

But if you find these Nazi ChristoIslamic dogs amusing, wait until you see the Christian Orthodox Nazi Zavisev. Remember the Orthodox? Their still at it, murdering Jews.

And then you have the Nazi from the Lagoon, Whistling. It will be here any minute, Jacques.

These are real genuine NAZIS, Jacques. It's in the blood.

And you know what should be done with the Nazis like Garak, Xavisev, Whistling. Stay tuned for ChrisFord, Robert James, and a host of other Catholic Nazi scum.

They're coming, Jacques.

One of the ironic (and probably Freudian) aspects of the extreme left's attacks on Israel is that Israel was, originally, the most socialist of countries and that the only place in the world where true, voluntary communism, as propounded by Marx existed was in Israeli kibbutzim.

Of course, in the 60+ years of Israel's existance, those kibbutzim have moved more and more away from communism and the country, itself, has moved away from extreme socialism. The reason's being human nature and reality. The dreamers on the far left, of course, have problems with that, since it blows their world view all to smithereens.

Garbage like the post of ravitchn proves my point.

Shlomo Sand is a leading Israeli historian at a Tel Aviv U, a leading Israeli university. The Invention of the Jewish People spent months on the Israeli best-seller list. He says uncomfortable things about Israel.

And what is the response? Smears like ravitchn's post: Prof. Sand is "a man whose parents were Holocaust survivers but who were Communists and instilled in their good Jewish boy a hatred of Zionism as reactionary bourgeois nationalism."

A pure ad hominem attack typical of Goldfarb and his ilk. Guess what? A lot of the Zionists were communist or socialist. Labour, the dominant political party for most of Israel's first 30 years, was an out-and-out socialist party in the classic Western European mode.

What we see from Goldfarb and his kind, like ravitchn, is an attempt to deny Jews the right to free speech. Toe the (ultra-right wing) party line or be attacked and smeared. Goldfarb will decide what Jews can say and think.

Just look at how they attacked Dr. Norman Finkelstein for telling the truth about the Holocaust Industry and Dershowitz's screeds. A self-hating Jew who should not be allowed to speak. Denied tenure because of pressure from the Goldfarb krewe.

Then they went after Justice Goldstone with the same venom. Again, a self-hating Jew.

Pathetic.

Word just in: Chelsea Clinton will be marrying a Jewish American, much like Caroline Kennedy did. How will the anti-semites read this? A Jewish plot to capture all the daughters of the White House?

The most interesting recent example of anti-Israeli propaganda is the book by Shlomo Sand on the "invention of the Jewish people." It has been hailed by left-wing Jews, Nazi types, Arabs, and others. It claims that Israeli Jews have a false story about their peoplehood, one invented to justify Zionist occupation of Palestine. This thesis, based on falty genetic discussions, on some historically accurate assessments of conversions to Judaism over time, and mostly on nonsense is by a man whose parents were Holocaust survivers but who were Communists and instilled in their good Jewish boy a hatred of Zionism as reactionary bourgeois nationalism. Only Israel's national myth is challenged as an anachronism, not that of the French, the Poles, not even the Germans. In fact, all nations have a myth of their national being. Americans have it in the Declaration of Independence where George III is falsely accused of tyranny, whereas all his acts were those of the King-in-Parliament, totally consitutionallt justified. But American preferred to pretend that the king was a king as he might have been prior to 1688. This is our national myth. Only the Zionist Israelis are told they cannot have a national myth. Unfortunately American scholars like Tony Judt have supported this outrageous position. Ask Judt why Israel's nationalism is illegtimate and he will tell you it is too "late" in coming. Whose fault was that?

"Israel is relentlessly, obsessively criticized."

And that criticism is justified. Israel relentlessly and obsessively confiscates Palestinian land. Israel relentlessly and obsessively humiliates and oppresses the Palestinian people. Israel relentlessly and obsessively attacks its neighbors. Israel relentlessly and obsessively commits humans rights violations and war crimes. Israel relentlessly and obsessively demonizes not only Palestinians but also Jews who call it to account. Israel relentlessly and obsessively denies its own history and trumpets its own false narrative. Israel relentlessly and obsessively attacks anyone who utters even a word of criticism. Israel relentless and obsessively smears its critics as anti-semites, regardless of the truth of the criticism.

Goldfarb and the rest of the Israel Uber Alles crowd is in the lead of this blood libel. Truth is as alien to Goldfarb as it was to Goebbels.

It's regretable that Goldfarb and Captain Ahab see the only role for the US Jewish community to be sheep to AIPAC. Israel is currently confronted not only with a potentially lethal Iran. It will be destroyed from within if it does not clean up its perennially corrupt Ministry of the Interior which has fostered settlements for 30 years and with the inability of its citizen army to control the behavior of its forces in the Occupied Territories and in Lebanon.

J Street is a pretentious fraud. They are more interested in keeping their left wing/uber progressive credentials intact, than they are in the state of Israel. That is what all their double speak is really all about. We are Jews, but we can be as left wing progressive as ANSWER or Moveon.org. We can even do it while speaking out of both side of our mouths at the same time. It is certainly a shame, when intellectuals and those who pretend to be intellectuals, allow their need to appear more politically left wing than thou to distort the history and real politics of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Eventually, they will be seen to be who they really are, and they will disappear.

You made my laugh.