Persiflage,

You wrote on October 8th:

"Norrie - interesting literary reference...
Who would have thought to find it in the work 'Ulysses' by James Joyce?!"

That's where I came across the phrase, "ayenbite of inwyt", reading Ulysses in college, 55 years ago.

BTW, what are we to make of those two anti-Dalai Lama fanatics, thomascanada and Spring_Rain?

Of course they could be one person masquerading as two.

One or two, I suspect they're paid scribes operating out of Beijing or the embassy on Wisconsin Avenue.

Anyway their posts reveal an abysmal ignorance of the United States, its people, On Faith posters, and the Dalai Lama.

Chinese lies and Tibetans dies is very apt and true from the likes of post one can see from Angel Justice, spring_rain etc.

They try to falsely link Dalai Lama with Hitler and Nazi Germany. Neither Dalai Lama
or his officials prior to 1950 didn't knew Germany or Nazi least of Hitler.

The only Tibetans knew where neigboring countries India, nepal, Bhutan and UK as British were in occupying India then.

Heinrick Harrer and Peter were Austrian political refugees as they imprisoned by British in India. They somehow escape from India and made to Lhasa, Tibet and sought refuge there. They remained there till 1950 until Chinese occupied Tibet.

I am very sure that at that very time there must be tens of thousands of Nazi in China working with either communist or nationalist.

Mao Tsetung and Stalin are as despicable and evil as Hitler or Polpot are. Only Hitler got despised as he lost the war.

Chinese are never ashamed of blunt lies and manufacturing histories to suit their version of story.

Chinese will shoot you in back and then claim they are doing this as self defense.

Chinese lies world listens because of $$$$$$$$$$$$$ and threat.

Now SPRING RAIN sounds like a Catholic convert! ....should have known right away, from the prejudicial tone. Benedict is the most non-progressive Pope in 100 years, and the reason many Catholics are falling away from the faith. His 'superior' attitude and regressive philosophy is well known and abundantly clear.

I know quite alot about Catholicism, and nearly as much about Buddhism. BTW, 'billions' of Catholics is a might exaggerated - try 1 billion...about equal to the number of people estimated to be practicing Buddhism worldwide.

Among Buddhists and well regarded Buddhist spokespersons, there are none more revered than the current Dalai Lama. The complete lack of ecumenicism in today's Vatican is more than made up for in the Dalai Lama's call for world peace, and the mutual respect of all religious traditions - an attitude and philosophy sorely lacking amidst the trappings of the famously priceless Papal regalia worn around the Vatican these days. (e.g. see Nobel Peace Prize winners).

As for me, I'm more of a Taoist.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalai_Lama
http://www.tibet.com/

p.S. And Persiflage, you really ought to better inform yourself. Tibet IS a recognized "autonomous region" within China-it DOES have sovereignty over its own affairs. And as for the DL, if you know anything about Buddhism and the Buddhist world at all, you know that the DL is not only not recognized by other than HIS OWN SECT OF Tibetan Buddhists, he is not admired in the least-in fact, he is completely ignored by the rest of the Buddhist world, except in the West, where his PR machine has done a thorough propaganda campaign on the likes of you and yours. It's a good thing that some of us understand that Asia is not even so cut and dried as you people with your slogans and agendas who have made one little tourist trip to Asia if you've made any at all so fervently believe, and thus have not one idea in hell about what the situation is really like in Tibet-which is actually pretty darn good, in comparision with other Chinese ethnic minorities that is.

Don't try to make the DL into something he's not: he is the spiritual leader of one sect of Tibetan buddhists-which had the DL's sect forced down their throats sometime in the 14th century. That's it-nothing more, and nothing less than that. He is by no means a political or a world spiritual leader-he has no following outside of his tiny religious sect within the Buddhist religion-he is in no way like Pope Benedict, who truly is a world spiritual leader of billions of Catholics on the planet, and who presides over a separate country, the Vatican.

No the meat-eating, high-living DL just travels around like royalty, overly apologetic about not wanting to "upset anyone" and basically creating issues where none exist. I'm not saying that the Chinese are all right in this matter-but I see a hell of a lot more effort to make Tibet a viable economic center, to better the lives of the citizens, than anything DL has done-and that IS a fact.

SPRING RAIN - please believe that I'm not in exile anywhere, have been in the USA much longer than you've been alive, I would bet. In any event, you're Chinese sympathies are most unbecoming, as is your attitude toward 'exile' groups - as though being driven from one's homeland under threat of death is really no big deal. Just a bunch of sniveling cowards, right??

It seems clear you're either in complete denial over the abundantly available details of Chinese oppression in Tibet for over 50 years (including the murder & imprisionment of the indigenous peoples, particularly Buddhist monastics, suppression of native culture, etc.)- or you've been reading/listening to Chinese propaganda exclusively.

Perhaps now that Obama has won the Nobel Peace Prize he'll find it harder to evade the issue of Chinese hegemony in Tibet.

Everything is not always about money.

Three cheers for President Obama. He is very smart, and he can see through the charade of the so-called "Dalai Lama," who has managed to make a pretty good living for himself out of all the publicity he is getting in the States. There is not an ounce of spirituality in the DL. It's all about making money using phoney talk. I am so sick of seeing him paraded on the front pages as if he were some saint. He is not! He is just another charlatan.

I would like to apologize to the President for the comment I made, early (1:25am) this morning, regarding the Dali Lama and the Chinese. It was made purely from emotion and not from reason. Mr. Obama obviously can see the "Big Picture" much better than I can and I'm sure that he is doing what he thinks is best. There are a lot of dynamics here. Not just Tibet and China but Korea and more. I'm Sorry. Please forgive me.

Oh, and as for Herrar's fellow captive, Peter Aufschnaiter, know what he did after the two of them escaped? He spent the next 30 years of his life mapping the Himalayas. He also helped Tibet develop hydroelectric power and a system of canals. A skilled cartographer and geographer, he worked for the Indian government and eventually became a Nepalese citizen. In Nepal, he worked as an agricultural expert and engineer. It was only at the end of his life that he returned to Austria, and he did so to die.

Persiflage-as with most exile groups with your particularized political agenda, you have the need to exaggerate and even lie, about abuses when it suits the political agenda to do so. In many ways, I equate exile groups with the oppressor-not different in kind at all, both sides willing to lie for self-preservation of interests, either state-based or personal.

As a result, I don't place much stock in exile groups, and I wish to God that the State Department didn't either-they are collectively bad news, their "reports" about abuses should ALWAYS be taken with a grain of salt, and finally, the lot of them wouldn't recognize truth and non-bias if it jumped up and bit their nose off.

No, exile groups are NOT the answer-and the State Department HAS NO BUSINESS PAYING THEM ANY HEED, MUCH LESS LETTING THESE GROUPS DICTATE FOREIGN POLICY. THAT IS THE ULTIMATE IN NAIVETE.

We now have a president that is pragmatic. President Obama's common sense approach to this issue servers American interests the best.

Forget about the Hollywood riches, just ask ordinary citizens in the heart land - Why should they send their hard earned money to fund a former slave master for returning his theocracy to a land that has been part of China for centuries? Who is paying for Dalai Lama and his lobbyists stationed in Washington DC? You and me. And what do we get in return? Angering 1.4 billion Chinese. That's not smart strategy. Obama should go one step further and cut off the funding for Dalai Lama. This country is broke. We can't afford to paying for his luxury life style.

Good grief! Heinrich Herrar was the Dalai Lama's tutor when he was a mountaineer in Tibet, and the DL was 11 years old. The year was 1946. That the DL made his acquaintance and asked him to teach him English and history, among other subjects, doesn't make him a Nazi sympathizer.

At the time he was taught by Herrar (who is, by the way, the author of Seven Years in Tibet, which details his experiences and was later made into a mainstream movie), the DL probably had very little understanding of what the Nazi party even WAS, and when he did finally learn the truth, he did what many authentic religious leaders do: offer compassion and a keen understanding of the man himself.

Herrar joined the Nazis so he could ski and climb mountains on someone else's dime as a famous athlete, not so he could kill people, and like a lot of people there, he found himself involved in something he didn't believe in, which is why he fled as soon as he could. Where was Heinrich Herrar in 1939, at the height of Hitler's power? He was making an attempt to climb Nanga Parbat in the Himalayas. Caught by British soldiers in India (a far cry from Auschwitz), he spent the next 5 years in and out of their camps. In 1944 he finally escaped the British, and this is how he ended up in Tibet.

If anyone is interested in spreading the facts around, please feel free to borrow from this letter, or else do some actual research.

JANPB - you have no idea what you're talking about. As near as I can tell, I'm most likely the only American citizen posting here at the moment......and you??

What's your country of origin?? I'm guessing you're a Hollander....

I truly hope your a defender of Tibet's right to sovereignty.

Don't bother answering the usual astroturfers set up by the usual suspects. This includes most likely the following:
JERUSALIMIGHT
SPRING_RAIN
KKRIMMER
PERSIFLAGE
Checking their IP addresses would be most instructive...

And now we hear from SPRINGRAIN - what a lilting Chinese sound effect that has! Something straight out of Chuang Tzu....

The history of oppression in Tibet at the hands of the Chinese is so well documented little more needs to be said.

It's very ironic, but what goes around comes around - the premiere imperialist nation in the world today is China, when not long ago, all they could talk about during the heyday of communism under Mao was the imperialism of the capitalist West.

We fully expect Chinese nationalists and hired propagandists to continue on with their dirty work, but no one has to like it.

http://www.tibet.com/women/twdiirrpt.html

Again and again Obama puts your country America into the hands of the greedy power base trying to run the world. Here are some of the groups he has sold you out to:

1. he gave the wall street greed barons 1 trillion dollars
2. his health care plan helps big business health care and hurts the individual
3. he favors all the status quo sides in the Middle East
4. he gives in to the generals in war and torture.
5. he gives Russia free reign.
6. and now he surrenders to China

President Obama has done the right thing by not seeing the Dalai Lama-he has to make some politically expedient moves not popular with those with their fashionable causes celebres regarding Tibet.

First of all, having just returned from the most Buddhist of all countries-MYANMAR-which borders Tibet, and which the dominant language-Burmese- (Myanmar language) (Burmese being a colonial term that I try not to use, since I met no Myanmar people young or old, who use that term when speaking in English about their country) - happens to be a Sino-Tibetan language - NO ONE THERE GIVES A DAMN ABOUT THE DALAI LAMA, AS THEY DO NOT IN ALL OF SOUTHEAST ASIA. THEY DON'T EVEN LIKE HIM THERE. THE DALAI LAMA IS NOT AS IMPORTANT AS CERTAIN PEOPLE IN THE WEST WANT TO MAKE HIM OUT TO BE.

As for the Chinese eradicating Tibetan culture, I find that utterly absurd-if you go to neighboring Nepal, to Bodhnath, and other Tibetan ex-pat communities, you'll see the Tibetan culture thriving-there is no danger of it being eradicated-none whatsoever. Remember, TIBET IS AND ALWAYS WILL BE A PART OF CHINA-THAT'S A FACT- EVEN THE DALAI LAMA STATES THAT-BUT THE TIBETAN CAUSE SHOULD NOT SUPERCEDE OTHER ETHNIC MINORITIES' CAUSES IN CHINA THAT DON'T HAVE A PR MEAT-EATING DALAI LAMA TRAVELING THE WORLD ON THEIR BEHALF, AND THUS THE DL SHOULD NOT BE GIVEN ANY SPECIAL PREFERENCE BY THIS COUNTRY, SIMPLY BECAUSE STARS LIKE RICHARD GERE, AND BANDWAGON JUMPERS LIKE PELOSI HAPPEN TO THINK THAT THE DALAI LAMA IS THE EQUIVALENT OF A WORLD POLITICAL/SPIRITUAL LEADER THAT ALL COUNTRIES' LEADERS AROUND THE WORLD MUST TREAT AS AN EQUAL-HE IS NOT THAT.

THE DELAI LAMA IS ONLY THE SPIRITUAL LEADER FOR A TINY TINY MINORITY OF THE TIBETAN BUDDHISTS IN THIS WORLD-THE REST OF THE BUDDHIST WORLD PAYS HIM NO MIND WHATSOEVER.

AGAIN, PRESIDENT OBAMA HAS MADE THE RIGHT DECISION AND SHOULD STICK WITH IT-THE DL IS NOT A WORLD POLITICAL LEADER, THUS THE PRESIDENT HAS NO REASON TO MEET WITH HIM WHATSOEVER-HE DOES, ON THE OTHER HAND, PRESIDENT OBAMA HAS EVERY REASON TO LISTEN TO CHINA'S LEADERS-WHO DON'T WANT THE DALAI LAMA TO BE GIVEN SPECIAL TREATMENT BY WORLD LEADERS-BECAUSE THE DALAI LAMA IS NOT A WORLD LEADER-IT BETTER SERVES THIS COUNTRY'S INTERESTS TO DO AS PRES. OBAMA IS DOING-OBSERVING CORRECT POLITICAL PROTOCOL, THAN TO SIMPLY BE SWAYED BY POPULAR WESTERN OPINION OF THE "FREE TIBET" SLOGAN-AN ABSURD RALLYING CRY THAT ONLY NON-THINKING, FASHIONABLE POLITICAL "AGENDAISTS" GET BEHIND.

President Obama has done the right thing by not seeing the Dalai Lama-he has to make some politically expedient moves not popular with those with their fashionable causes celebres regarding Tibet.

First of all, having just returned from the most Buddhist of all countries-MYANMAR-which borders Tibet, and which the dominant language-Burmese- (Myanmar language) (Burmese being a colonial term that I try not to use, since I met no Myanmar people young or old, who use that term when speaking in English about their country) - happens to be a Sino-Tibetan language - NO ONE THERE GIVES A DAMN ABOUT THE DALAI LAMA, AS THEY DO NOT IN ALL OF SOUTHEAST ASIA. THEY DON'T EVEN LIKE HIM THERE. THE DALAI LAMA IS NOT AS IMPORTANT AS CERTAIN PEOPLE IN THE WEST WANT TO MAKE HIM OUT TO BE.

As for the Chinese eradicating Tibetan culture, I find that utterly absurd-if you go to neighboring Nepal, to Bodhnath, and other Tibetan ex-pat communities, you'll see the Tibetan culture thriving-there is no danger of it being eradicated-none whatsoever. Remember, TIBET IS AND ALWAYS WILL BE A PART OF CHINA-THAT'S A FACT- EVEN THE DALAI LAMA STATES THAT-BUT THE TIBETAN CAUSE SHOULD NOT SUPERCEDE OTHER ETHNIC MINORITIES' CAUSES IN CHINA THAT DON'T HAVE A PR MEAT-EATING DALAI LAMA TRAVELING THE WORLD ON THEIR BEHALF, AND THUS THE DL SHOULD NOT BE GIVEN ANY SPECIAL PREFERENCE BY THIS COUNTRY, SIMPLY BECAUSE STARS LIKE RICHARD GERE, AND BANDWAGON JUMPERS LIKE PELOSI HAPPEN TO THINK THAT THE DALAI LAMA IS THE EQUIVALENT OF A WORLD POLITICAL/SPIRITUAL LEADER THAT ALL COUNTRIES' LEADERS AROUND THE WORLD MUST TREAT AS AN EQUAL-HE IS NOT THAT.

THE DELAI LAMA IS ONLY THE SPIRITUAL LEADER FOR A TINY TINY MINORITY OF THE TIBETAN BUDDHISTS IN THIS WORLD-THE REST OF THE BUDDHIST WORLD PAYS HIM NO MIND WHATSOEVER.

AGAIN, PRESIDENT OBAMA HAS MADE THE RIGHT DECISION AND SHOULD STICK WITH IT-THE DL IS NOT A WORLD POLITICAL LEADER, THUS THE PRESIDENT HAS NO REASON TO MEET WITH HIM WHATSOEVER-HE DOES, ON THE OTHER HAND, PRESIDENT OBAMA HAS EVERY REASON TO LISTEN TO CHINA'S LEADERS-WHO DON'T WANT THE DALAI LAMA TO BE GIVEN SPECIAL TREATMENT BY WORLD LEADERS-BECAUSE THE DALAI LAMA IS NOT A WORLD LEADER-IT BETTER SERVES THIS COUNTRY'S INTERESTS TO DO AS PRES. OBAMA IS DOING-OBSERVING CORRECT POLITICAL PROTOCOL, THAN TO SIMPLY BE SWAYED BY POPULAR WESTERN OPINION OF THE "FREE TIBET" SLOGAN-AN ABSURD RALLYING CRY THAT ONLY NON-THINKING, FASHIONABLE POLITICAL "AGENDAISTS" GET BEHIND.

What people don't know is the REST of the Obama campaign slogan: Yes We Can (do more of the same)

The Dala Lama has close ties with former members of Hitler's Body Guard SS; convicted mass murderers, former Nazi thugs, former Gestapo informants and terrorists.
-------

I thought I'd heard everything in my life... but this (so far) takes first prize in the most insane assumption. Well maybe not as far flung as the fact that this very posters mother was a man (and a priest) before a sex change operation, and their biological mother was a high ranking Scientologist who gave her baby (angeljustice) away to pursue her career as a stripper in a Hollywood bar, who got knocked up by a Beverly Hills plastic surgeon who was cheating on his fourth wife (the previous wife of Madeline Albright).

Norrie - interesting literary reference...
Who would have thought to find it in the work 'Ulysses' by James Joyce?!

I agree that Obama is rapidly developing a history of hedging his bets as regards taking a stand on politically 'sensitive' issues. This business with the Dalai Lama will prove to be a political faux pax, if you ask me. Likewise, the gay marriage issue.

On the other hand, the USA has become so beholden to China with regard to lopsided trade agreements that our leverage becomes more compromised by the day......in the meantime, China covertly uses North Korea to keep us off balance diplomatically.

Tim - yes, I think the anti-Dalai Lama posts are the equivilant of regurgitated political spam, as I've seen the same stuff posted over and over at various times on these very threads.

http://www.answers.com/topic/agenbite-of-inwit#

Persiflage, I think cadre are paid by the word or something... It's some low amount, them being a skinflint organized crime network clothed in pseudo-communist propaganda. Probably there's some project of the week like 'put Splittist scum in rankings with Hitler' that they have to elaborate on under the red TPS cover sheet. It probably stays about as fun as watching paint dry after about the second or third week of the same old garbage.

By not seeing the Dali Lama, Mr.Obama is sending the signal that China pulls the strings of the US President and that they are now the number one power of the world.
I guess I knew it was coming, I just didn't realize, how soon.

This is very important. As I point out in my blog on this issue at www.king-harvest.com, the Dalai Lama is the symbolic representative of a mass movement in Asia for democracy and human rights. It is a serious mistake for either the American left or right to ignore that movement much less sacrifice it on the altar of real politik.

So Obama lied to get the power. They all do. We're the idiots for believing them.

That's the Obama administration for you: plenty of strategic snubs and no soul.

Just like Obama's snubbing (strategically, he thinks) the gay community on gay marriage.

Barack, buddy, wake up and inhale a whiff of justice and honor.

Your "strategic" snubs will backfire and will avail you nothing.

And, in your old age, if you then have an active conscience, it may prick at you.

[See Ayenbyte of Inwyt (Michael of Northgate, Benedictine monk, Anno Domini 1340.)

As opposed to persiflage this does do Obama so credit he is making realist not idealogical decisions. Yeah I would like the president to tell the Chinese to accept the Dalai Lama that is not allowing in Tibet which the Chinese would probably respond by killing a million of their people so no I realistly don't want to happen.

How is the GOP stubbed?

Hmmmmm.....the ANGELJUSTICE rebuke of the Dalai Lama has a distinct Chinese flavor - we've seen/heard this crap before. First Mao slaughtered 50 million of his own people then proceeded to Tibet with the same intentions. Yes indeed, the Tibetans should welcome their Chinese masters with open arms.....

That the GOP would take notice of the Dalai Lama is hugely entertaining....proving that they will resort to virtually ANY strategy that serves to discredit the Obama administration. If democrats objected, that would be a valid criticism - republicans have as little actual use for the Dalai Lama as they did for Mahatma Gandhi - and that translates to none at all. I think they would prefer Jesus, to tell the truth.

Obama will have to tread water in the future with China, especially if Taiwan makes any kind of public appearance opposing China policies - this will be quite a bit more provocative than a simple Tibetan monk....and a conflict much harder to avoid by a mere snub.

Frankly, this did not do Obama credit....not at all.