jdsher00, you wrote: "They should take 1/10 the energy they spend on elevators, and spend it on seeking and pursuing peace."

How many orthodox Rabbis actually rule regarding elevators? From what I understand, those who do are specialists in their field, and then the main authorities give their stamp of approval. So most orthodox rabbi spen no energy on elevators. But let me turn your point back at you: is defaming an entire public the way one goes about "seeking and pursuing peace?" Or does that not apply to one's own people.

Hmm... a once thoughtful discussion has been hijacked by 101 agendas.

By the way, to all those who criticize the law discussed in this article without knowing what you're talking about and getting your fragments of information from what you've been told at school and by the media... if you had lived in the Medieval period, you would have been unthinking religious ignoramuses.

I'm a Reform Jew, and I don't think highly of the Israeli Orthodox rabbinate. They should give Reform rabbis the right to conduct marriages. They should take 1/10 the energy they spend on elevators, and spend it on seeking and pursuing peace.

walking up stairs seems like a lot work.

I don't think God looks askance at either option - maybe against escalators though - something about that whole concept might be off.

How many angels can stand on the head of a pin or in an elevator?

What a useful discussion!

All I know is, I SURE AS HELL DON'T ROLL ON SHABBAT!

Another example of just how STUPID organized religion can become!

The principal of "building a fence around Torah" involves examining behaviors and setting up rules to avoid inadvertently violating one of the 613 commandments (you guys who only deal with 10 got off easy!). Whether observance of shabbos is symbolic or literal, the intent is to honor the day as we were instructed. Examining the rules, keeping them current, is not trying to evade the commandment to not do work, rather it is an effort to be sure that we are aware of what we are doing and why. Trust me, if it were about easy, there would be even fewer Jews than there are.

God save us from religion!

"The clear intent of forbidding work on a sabbath was to set aside a day when nothing was done."

If pressing an elevator button is considered work, then even more so is buttoning your clothes. Dare we flush the toilet, or are convenient chamber pots required? The lengths to which some people carry this lunacy is utterly bizarre, but because this is "religion" we can't say how stupid it all is.

What does a disabled person do if not able to use the elevators? My friend's baubie used to tear toilet paper the day before the Sabbath so as not to "work." I respected her beliefs but continue to wonder if God would really want an old (I mean mid-90s!) lady worrying about tearing toilet paper on the Sabbath.

I've spoken with several members of the Jewish faith over the years, and I never understood certain things about Shabbat. They have rules set forth, but then try to find as many ways around those rules as possible, i.e. Shabbat Elevators so they don't have to press the button, instead of walking up stairs, Shabbat Lamps, so they can shield the light instead of turning it on and off, etc. Why practice a religion if all you do is spend time trying to figure out ways around the rules, it seems to undermine the values and principles.

During our short lives in a Universe full of wonder and awe, this are the superstitious control games some people choose to spend their time on?

I guess if you believe you get an infinite "do-over" after you die, it makes sense. Too bad that belief isn't supported by a shred of objective evidence.

"You become aware of something higher than yourself by feeling and sensing that which is all around you... Being "connected" to the here and now."

But give some thought to how much of the here and now is shaped by the past. Start with the language you've inherited, and the words you use - which you've inherited-that shape the way you see the world, not to mention WHAT you see when you see the world (see Eskimos and x number of words for snow, and so the distinctions they see when they see snow). So it's not so simple being in the here and now. And I would wager that many of these laws have the counter-intuitive effect of putting you in touch with things you would otherwise miss. Like MOMSAREV said, it can be a spiritual discipline.

Isaiah 58 -- I'm challenging myself to be sure that my religious actions are backed by the love and obedience that God considers more important than any ritual on its own.

You become aware of something higher than yourself by feeling and sensing that which is all around you and dealing with every situation in the context of what is happening. By "being" in the present moment and interacting with all that you are with in a positive way. Being "connected" to the here and now - not through interpretations of ancient rules given to you by so-called leaders 1000 miles away.

Another point about laws like these that many religions follow, and a distinction that isn't made when those who point to obscure laws in the OT--many of these are prescriptive laws rather than moral laws, which are unchangeable.

There is nothing inherently immoral about pushing an elevator button or eating meat on a fast day. Those laws are changeable, and Christians at least did not continue adherence to most them, while instituting other prescriptive rules.

Anyway, when some argue that a moral law (such as illicit sex) has no force because some prescriptive law is obviously ridiculous, they have no idea what they're talking about.

Am I going to hell for pushing an elevator button? Probably not. But showing how special the Sabbath is is important. To keep it that way, you have to be careful about how you view work. It can be a slippery slope. And before long, the Sabbath is a day like any other.

"They do it to increase their consciousness of the divine in their lives,..."

Excellent way to put it--many religions do the same for the same reason. Why do Catholics give up meat on some days or whisk incense?

But none of those things make any sense at all if the ultimate objective of being open to God is not met. If one focuses so closely on fasting, for instance and fails to focus on God, what good is that?

I can see Gadlut and Cyclist's points ~ I interpret "work" as "working" ~ if I want to study on Yom Kippur, I don't mind turning on the computer to find a reference or interpretation I'd like to see. But I won't check my e-mail, which is usually work-related. I might take a call from a friend, but not take a customer call.

Is my interpretation right? I dunno. But it works for me, and I feel good about it.

I find it fascinating how laws written thousands of years ago can be interpreted to relate to, and give guidance with respect to, the modern world.

Yes, some of the analogies are a bit of a stretch, but you have to respect a people who actually pay attention to the rules governing their conduct and make good faith efforts to follow them, rather than just breaking them when they don't suit them.

That "old fashioned" style of religion, in contrast to modern cafeteria-style religion, is refreshing.

"Sorry - but nationally debating whether you can PUSH A BUTTON!!! on a certain day has NOTHING to do with experience or memories."

Maybe not for you, but it does for them.

Peace

People who follow talmudic restrictions on behavior do so as a spiritual practice--like yoga, if you like. They do it to increase their consciousness of the divine in their lives, and their sense of relationship to the larger purposes of the universe.

If you find that stupid or offensive, that's YOUR problem--don't read about it or get into arguments about it, stay away from it! Shabbos elevators usually only exist in buildings that serve Orthodox or Chasidic communities, so you will never be affected by it!

Sorry - but nationally debating whether you can PUSH A BUTTON!!! on a certain day has NOTHING to do with experience or memories.

Peace.

cmecyclist:

Okay, you might find it stupid, but no one is making you or asking you observe the laws. THESE people have a past they want to keep alive - or resurrect, as you say. Either way, for them it's a beautiful memory/experience.

Gadlut,

Thanks for the info - but it's still stupid! It's still a matter of religions trying to control. I mean if I love building things and I don't feel like it's work but I'm unable because "God's rules" tell me I can't - the underlying purpose is still control.

Instead of keeping history alive, it's more like trying to resurrect the dead! ;-)

cmecyclist:

For the sake of basic cultural literacy, "work" in this context means those actions that were performed in the building of the Biblical tabernacle. THOSE actions, and actions that can be considered analagous to them, are forbidden on the Sabbath. So that by pushing an elevator button, you might be lighting a fire, and fire was used in the construction of the tabernacle. The laws in question then make the past come alive.

Well, then WALK up the stairs. Oh but wait, is that WORK, TOO???

Better yet, the religion should forbid anybody to even get out of bed on the Sabbath! So they don't have to worry about these "problems."

Pushing buttons, work??? How stupid is that??

And thus by the same set of logical rules, Israel is the promised land.

The clear intent of forbidding work on a sabbath was to set aside a day when nothing was done. Playing legalistic games to get around that and defeat the intent of the rule is rather offensive. Check out Shammai.

Hmm... they really seem to believe that God is in the details

I've long wondered about the use of microphones on days when work is eschewed. Speaking into a microphone directly influences the voltage level and operation of the amplifier. It's no different from turning on/off a switch. Worse perhaps ~ it's continuously turning switches on or off!

Nothing more clearly shows how petty and irrelevant religion is. Who the hell cares? If your god does, he's one petty SOB.

Confusion, frustration, uncertainty, even, perhaps, cynicism or amusement, but why
"intrigue?"