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daniel, i just reread your comment-

you make an innaccurate illustration when you depict islam as being closed at the top.

there is no hiearchy in islam, no priests or rabbis, no presidents or intercessors between us and ALLAH.

if ou want to continue with the top to bottom analogy, actually that works to define islam as a particularly open ended and flexible philosophy.

as for corporate flexibilty- no- there is a definitive power structure that is closed at the top.

whereas islam comes from the individual heart and can expand in any direction, your examples are linear in nature and 2 dimensional and finite.
they actually disprove your contention of the superiority of the corporate structure over islam.

id go so far as to say that DESPITE the limitations put on the creative mind, the creative mind prevails over the closed system it must overcome to grow.

well, thanks for the idea

next weeks topic on this special is 'faith without fear' with the muslim feminist irshad manji

tonight (april 15th) on PBS a new series is starting called America at a Crossroads.
It is about the formation of al-qaeda and muslim extremists.

daniel, islam is as elasticand flexible as the heart that is embracing it

small tiny restrictive controlling heart?
" " " " islam

wide loving inclusive flexible heart?
ditto islam

To Malleck from Daniel. I did not say reading has so numbed my mind that canned ideas just pop into my head. You hopeless idiot--you cannot even read a sentence. But I suppose the reason is because you are not very familiar with the English language or something. I said my life has been ruined by reading--that I love reading so much it takes precedence over all. As for not thinking, my mind operates in an intuitive fashion....As for your ideas concerning Islam (I ignore the middle gibberish of your post because although I grasp the science to a degree it bears no relationship to any point concerning Islam you make) Islam is doomed to fail for the same reasons all total conceptions of society fail: they are nonadaptive. Democracy and religion subordinate to state is best so far because it allows smaller and ever changing combinations only--or if large structures, flexible corporate structures. Such a system is open at the top and not closed like fascist or communist or religious structures. The latter structures close down flexible and inventive recombination--they assume the total structure is understood and only combinations within are necessary. That is fatal. The U.S. is successful because the total structure is accepted as not understood--therefore recombination spins society higher and higher in ever more inventive fashion. Islam and like structures only suffocate this process....

Karzai:

"My Question to the persons is Do you think that the samll place that you think belong to you will be there for you for ever? Do you think you live in this world for ever? Do you think that you stay young and energetic and will cause corruption in the land, like your fore fathers did, and stay as powerful as Romans or Greeks were."

I am not interested in the future, nor do I have any dreams of a thousdand year Reich. I am only interested in destroying Islam in the present. If you think this is a joke, you will find the next decade absolutley hilarious.

As for Franck Collins he should be rendered to the Eithiopian Security Forces who will torture you with pleasure. One day there will be no need for renditions because no one will care what we do to you. Hope to see you soon.....

anonymous- i happily accept your offer of friendship and peace. im with you -

a salaamu alaikum brother or sister

daniel- im sorry to hear of your frustrations
i think you have a keen eye for recognizing hypocrisy, and it is when you encounter it you get upset with it(as we all should)
i know from your posts that your a highly intelligent person, and well read also.

i hope you can judge the religion by its own merits, and not on the merits of its imperfect adherents (like me)
i wish you peace

Patrick, Trying to size one's life or worth according to a small ficitional book is what I describe as little.

I personally try to live my life by the three principles of the Zoroasterian faith:

1) Good Thoughts
2) Good Words
3) Good Deeds

Now, I'm not always successful with the first two. But if all of us can live by these three principles, then I feel we've done okay, wouldn't you say? Why hate people because of what your priest or preacher or imam tells you about them?

As for Amy, what a truly ignorant statement.

Thank you Amy for your fine words as articulated to you in a fine institution such as The Messiah College or Liberty University. I see a bright future for you in the Department of Justice.

"Seems like I struck a cord there with Patrich and Wesley. It seems like sheep don't like it when facts come out about their own religion's ugly past and present."

Actually I was responding to the long ignorant muslim post not your ignorant post. Religious haters like you are a dime a dozen. Probably just bored with your little life I suppose.

Seems like I struck a cord there with Patrich and Wesley. It seems like sheep don't like it when facts come out about their own religion's ugly past and present.

I am not sure I am a Religion Hater. I know that I dislike their present day leaders and many of their actions. I greatly respect Jesus and Mohammad. They were truly prophets doing god's work.

But for a Christian to label Islam and the book of Koran as violent just shows how little they know about their own religion and its book.

And similarly, a Muslim stating that their religion respects all religions is also a lie. They respected and did not forcibly convert Christians and Jews, but all others were either converted or slaughtered by the sword.

Truth be told, christians and muslims have killed a whole lot of people for simply not being christian or muslim. They both have imposed their faiths through the sword.

I just believe that Organized Religion has much more in common with organized crime than with Jesus and Mohammad.

Anyone notice the only place where ALL muslims can practice their religion peacefully is in the US? They kill each other wherever they have a majority. Islam is an evil, evil to women, evil to progress, evil to a better world.

Gee Bin Laden found the time to post on the Blog today. Imagine that! Thanks Bin, what you can't stay? Too bad, I know running for your life everyday can be a bummer. Thanks for stopping by.

"Islam as practiced by bin laden is no different than official heads of christianity invoking and sanctioning the slaughter of innocents in the name of god."

Just more ridiculous rants by a religion hater. Wake up hater. Learn the facts. read a book, get a life.

The true problem today is not just Islam. It may not even be lack of diaglogue between "west" and Islam. It is organized religion. Everything that a large number of you criticize Islam for has its roots in Christianity, including diminishing the role of women in society. Go to a catholic church one sunday and listen to the sermon. Or listen to an Evangelical who matter-of-factly states that Ghandi is burning in hell right now because he did not accept Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior.

Islam as practiced by bin laden is no different than official heads of christianity invoking and sanctioning the slaughter of innocents in the name of god.

Pope Urban II invoked the First Crusade in 1095 promising to erase the mortal sins of warriors who died for God and Church while fighting the INFIDEL in the Holy Land. All that they plundered from the infidel was rightly theirs in this world and in heaven.

Each warrior who answered the pope's call was signed with the cross. Each pledged by word and dress to rescue the holy city of Jerusalem from the Muslims, or to DIE TRYING. They massacred every non-christian on their way to the Holy Land. This included Rhineland Jews, and of course Muslims and Jews once in Jerusalem.

All of this sounds a lot to me like the tall skinny guy hiding in a Peshawar, Pakistan promising 72 virgins for killing innocent people. And weak-minded sheap following this call.

We must always be wary. These people frequently talk out of both sides of their mouth.

what fools the infidels are! i read the posts with pleasure. not only do you run from islam, you fight among yourselves. christian taliban - now that is a laugh. its bushs fault - that is a laugh too. you defeat yourselves. your congress tells allahs mighty islamic warriors when you are going to run away, so now we know that you will not stay and fight and that you will not even have the time to chase down those that kill you. as the time for running approaches the killings will increase, which will just speed up the pace for you crusader dogs to leave allahs lands.
iran causes the world to cower in fear even before we get the bomb. you want to talk. we love to talk. the more you talk the less you do, and the more we accomplish in the meanting. what will you give when we have the bomb. islam has enough oil wealth to buy one, and soon one of the christian devils will sell it to us.
yes there are more of you, but you are not as united as we are. the koran guides all of islam, you christians dont even have the same bible anymore, and your holding hands and singing your dumb songs will not stop us.
every mosque teaches us on friday prayers about how to win for islam, your churches teach you how to lose.
your current war against islam is no better than your crusades. those slowed islam for a while, but as you slept we came into your countries and took over. we tell you that you are unfair and you just hand over everything we want, there are times when islam does not even need to fight you to get you to give up. you even give up when you are winning, praise be to allah.
look at iraq. in less than 3 weeks you took over the country but then you allowed islam to take it back. and now even your congress wants us to have it. in 4 years we have only managed to kill about 3,000 in combat, and you call that a victory for islam. we love your reasoning. we would gladly lose 3,000,000 and still not surrender, but you would run away because your local politics divides you. democrats only support a democrat war and now that they are back in power they refuse to support the republican war. you hand victory to us when your losses are so small, it is the will of allah that you do so.
here are some things i have learned about death. the americans had a civil war - and the dead in combat was 640,000 in 4 years. one battle of gettsburg was 3 days and the dead and wounded was 75,000. in ww1 millions died. the british lost 72,000 the first day of the battle of the somme, and when the 90 day battle was over the cost was ONE MILLION DEAD. in ww2 you knew how to fight. the bismark sank the hood in 7 minutes, 1275 dead. d day - 6,000 dead. dresden was bombed for 15 minutes - 35,000 dead. toyko was bombed for 2 nights - 100,000 dead. japanese islands fell - hundreds of thousands dead. and what did you do after all this sacrafice, you gave europe to godless russia, and its stalin. he killed another 10,000,000 holding it. it was not the west that brought down stalin, it was allah. stalin kept islam down for 70 years but could not kill us and now russia fears the might of islam. china was allowed to go godless and they murdered 30,000,00 and they too held us down but now we surround all of southern china. you infidels call the reagon the stans, pakistain, afghanistan, and the like.
you used to have courage but its gone now. we have broadened our control over the internal workings of your countries and therefore control by politics that which you could not lose by war. and when necessary we punish you. when the van gough dog criticised islam he was left dead on the street. when you point a finger at us we claim discrimination and you hide in fear that you might be called to task for it.
islam do not shrink from what they have done. it was islam that bombed your wtc, TWICE. it was islam that bombed your embassies in africia. it was islam that killed those on the cole.
and when all of this was going on we got you fools to attack what was yugo and defend those islamics that lived there. you are really the fools. you joined with the croats - who were the beloved of hitler and he even had a special unit of them in the ss - you joined with them against the slavs - who were trying to prevent further destruction of their country by croats and albanians. the best part of that joke was that a jew, albright, was raised by jew hating croats, to hate jew loving slavs, who protected jews from hitler and islamics. your foolishness knows no bounds. in truth islam need not actually do much to watch you defeat yourselves.
all priase to allah and his blessed prophet.
allah akbar.

I enjoyed the book, Abraham. It reveals that there are over 250 versions of the pact between Abraham and God and the meaning of his foiled sacrifice. That vast variety is not limited to different Jewish and Christian stories. It extends to Islam, as well. Only the simple would damn a whole religion when clearly there is such a complex fabric.

Personally, I think God accepted Abraham only when he stopped killing his sons. As usual, the story was changed to reflect the teller in the best possible light.

Dear Bloggers:

I was following the discussion in this blog with lots of interest. It was really sad to see some of you has such extereme view that are compareable to the views of the Hitler, Miloshovich etc. I am sure that if you guys were given power the whole world would have been destroyed by now. My Question to the persons is Do you think that the samll place that you think belong to you will be there for you for ever? Do you think you live in this world for ever? Do you think that you stay young and energetic and will cause corruption in the land, like your fore fathers did, and stay as powerful as Romans or Greeks were. Face the reality and learn from history. Nothing that you see today will be there for ever. Just think that you will live this place called home oneday with all your virtual realities of "killing the Muslims en masse" or eliminating the "Jews" from the face of the earth. One day you will be eliminated from the face of the earth your selves. Why make all the fuss? Nothing belongs to you and you won't take single thing with you when your time will come.

Nofoolhere and others on that side are right. The Left has made its pact with "radical" Islam. Its harder to speak truth to the Left than anything else. Leftists seek the destruction of their own society and the end of their own people.

today dialogue with tariq ramadan, tomorrow wth bin laden? who has paid how much to these writers? before anyone starts any dialogue with any terrorist supporter why dont they go and do a compilation on koran as to how many verses are devoted to attacks, killings, judeo-christian hatred and how many are otherwise on love, forgiveness etc. lemme do a favor here. the ratio is 70-30. so much or the religion of peace. yes the writer needs to learn more before even deciding who to listen and who to ignore. just because we call it a religion, that does not mean i am gonna 'respect' pr have dialogue with it. go and friggin do ur own homework before dishing out ur baloney. oh i forgot. some PR firm representing these quasi terrorist firms has paid the writers? opinion writers in conventional media have become the most corrupt and morally bankrupt people. probably a step ahead of lawyers n politicians. it is they who should be kicked out of the system.

Hey, Frank Collins, did you know that Mohammed was a child molesting pig eater? All Korans in the United States should be confiscated, pulped, and made into toilet paper.

"So you see a post that is so ridiculously racist and ignorant, don't give the poster the satisfaction of a response."

You forgot to mention stupid posts like yours, however I will respond. Unfortunately you will not be able to ignore those of us determined to deal with Islam once and for all, nor the muslim enemy. Embrace your fate.

What is the best way to deal with someone who makes no reasonable arguments and instead just slanders an entire religion...what do we do to combat the Bill O'Reilleys, Anne Coulters, etc...we IGNORE them. No matter what they say, no matter how hate-filled, they are, we ignore them. Don't read their books, don't watch their shows, don't listen to their radio programs. So you see a post that is so ridiculously racist and ignorant, don't give the poster the satisfaction of a response.

Amen! If Islam can contain their Taliban and Christians can contain THEIR Taliban, Evangelicals, the world would be well on the way to being a more peacful place.

Americans have their own views on Islam. It may be bad. It may be something skeptical. The question is, do you understand Islam enough to even have an opinion of it? That's the problem.

Will you stay quiet if your country is invaded, innocent public are killed? i don't think so.

It's a retaliation upon patriotism. This is not a provocation. It's an effort to open the minds of everyone from every side.

The door to America should be slammed in the face of Islam. Islam is the enemy of all Americans.

The United States has heard the voice of Islam. Loud and clear. We have been attacked in your name and we will not relent. We are coming for you.

Jimmy Carter was too decent a human being to use the strength of the United States against Islam and Islam made him bow to their will. You still celebrate his humanity as a great victory for Islam.

The clock is ticking. One day soon, our leaders will understand that the American people are tired of your terror. We are tired of your brave warriors who use machine guns and bombs against unarmed non-combatants. We will respond in kind. We will unleash the power of the sun against Islam. We will send those of you who survive back to the eleventh century.

There won't be enough of you left to push an old, wheelchair bound man into the sea because he was a Jew. There won't be enough of you left to make the trek to Mecca where you curse the rest of the world. Your true believers will have to hide in caves to escape justice.

You have created this hatred. Soon you will feast on it. Bitter. Bitter it will be for you. But not for long. You have very little time left.

Islam delenda est.

Frank Collins: "we will not stop until the entire world is islamic." Then we will have to exterminate all of you. You seem to forget that there are many more non-muslims than muslims, and many who would like nothing better than a fight to the death with Islam. Then we will paint the walls of our cities with muslim blood and you will weep to death from woe. I am looking forward to the future....

Islam is not the problem at all. The origin of all problems perceived to originate with the religion is actually in the people who embrace it. The people of the Middle East, for example, stopped evolving centuries ago when the entire world was barbaric. Others have moved while they have remained tea drinking savages with values lower than any other creatures on earth. How could it be the fault of Islam that different sects of believers think it proper to kill each other in the most barbaric of ways? The west was stupid to so openly deny that its war on terror was a crusade against Islam - the denial itself suggested otherwise. A much more accurate portrayal of the logic for war would have been a proposal to eliminate Arabs, and then other practitioners of Islam according to their race.

Daniel,

Your last post was at 6:40 a.m.

My reply is timed at 7:42 a.m.

I hope that, by 9:42 aq.m., say, I shall have your reaction.

But, if you don't want to react, fine with me. In case you want to continue a real dialogue aimed at understanding, ask me for my e-mail address and, even if I would be afriad of bugs, I'll trust your good faith and give it to you sothat we can understand each other's motives.

More than that, there is nothing I can do.

So help me, Allah Subhaana-Wata'ala.

Who or what is that? That's an answer that I might be ready to send you by e-mail if you give me your e-mail. You might also want to visit the website www.Qantara.de

Frank Collins: we will feed you the roasted flesh of your children. You are very far from Mecca and the police will not always protect you in the West. You will die like flat-footed Indians. Enjoy your Srebrenica daydreams, you should have heard them scream Mustafa Collins.

It doesn't matter how Tariq colors it, Islam is indeed the problem. The West and Islam is not on a collision course as some of us may have been cowered to believe, rather Islam is on a collision with itself. Any religion that preaches separateness rather than inclusion, righteousness over others who believe differently, chopping off limbs as punishment for crimes (in the name of religion) is indeed doomed! The stories coming from the Arab world (the center of Islam) in recent memory is inconsistent with modernity. No Islam and the believers are stuck with the laws (?) that were handed down by their prophet centuries ago, meanwhile the world has moved on!
No the West do not need Tariq's counsel, Tariq should go preach to his people about accepting others way of life and beliefs, Tariq's 'noble' calling is needed more in Darfur than in the U.S.

Leaving one's faith is apostasy. In the Book of Deuteronomy, Chapter 13, the punishment prescribed for this sin is death, and death is the punishment for those who lead someone to apostasy. Given this fact, any Bible fearing Christian or Jew would see death as a just and fit punishment for rejecting one's faith. It will be said that the Old Testament has been superseded by Christ's teaching of love in the New Testament; however, this would fly in the face of Jesus' statement in Matthew that He did not come to abolish the law and the prophets but to fulfill them. Also it will be said that this is something not done by today's Christians; they subscribe to love, not vengeance. Well, there are surely more than enough counter examples of this argument to refute it as a general characteristic of Christians. It is true that in Christendom, such acts as excommunication and carrying out Bible directed punishments are archaic, but that is only true because centuries of social revolution have resulted in the predominance of liberal, secular governments and the separation of religion from temporal power. Western civilization has become relatively humane in spite of Christianity, not because of it. The "Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Roman and Universal Inquisition" changed its name to "Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office". Note that this was a change in title; the office essentially still exists. However, without the support of secular authorities, it has no teeth. Don't believe for a moment that the rack wouldn't come back if that situation were to change. The same would be true if any fundamentalist Bible believing Christains were to gain temporal power. Intolerance is not unique to Islam. We have to be eternally vigilent to ensure the maintenance of the separation of church and state.

Hatem: Your April 10 2.59PM post turns what Mohamed Malleck said on it's head. Please read his post more carefully. What he said about a Muslim who leaves his religion thru arrogance is the opposite of how you described it.

also, hatem you say claim that the iraq war was driven by economics and not religion. is that a better reason than religious fanaticism to kill hundreds of thousands of people? in many ways the true religion of the right wing is greed and money.

bush has used the word crusade to describe the war on terror. he said iraq was the central front on the war on terror. he said a higher father was his source for going to war in iraq. his undersecretary of defense made numerous speeches in uniform talking about how america was a christian nation and that the war on terror was was similar to the crusades.

make no mistake, for bush and a portion of his evangelical base, this is very much a religious war.

It's University of Notre Dame, not Notre Dame University.

we accept jesus as a prophet NOT as god. no man born of woman can be god. the penalty for such blasphemy is death in islam. and for those of you of preach that oneness of humanity crap are dogs. there is only one god, and that god is allah. you either accept islam and allah or you face destruction. i have quoted the koran - there is no acceptance of your false gods or beliefs. you submit to allah - islam means submission - or you die. we might keep you alive long enough to get ransom out of you - the koran allows that, but eventually you will either convert or die. you may want to get along but we dont. we want you dead if you dont accept allah. and no, we will never say the inspired word of allah, given to us by his blessed prophet, should be abandoned because it makes you uncomfortable, or you dont like it. notice that i do not lie to you, i tell you exactly what the koran demands of us, and i tell you so that you may convert. but you will not convert or even believe what the koran says we must do to you. you dont want to believe so you dont believe. you are like the fools who did not believe that hitler told you what he intended to do in mein kampf, and you will not believe us now. so die believing in your jesus jew false god.
in the begining we had medina, then mecca. now we have north and central africia, north west africia, and eastern coast of africia. we have all of the middle east. we demanded and received india be split up so that we could have pakistian and we control large amounts of india. we control the land around southern china and the border of russia. we have turkey and lebanon and palestine - they used to be the home of the jews and christians but they belong to us now. we lost spain but we still made them run away from iraq. we make the british lion hide in a cave in fear. we even make their public schools deny the teaching of the killing of jews in ww2 and they no longer teach the crusades because your view conflicts with the islamic view. in america we sue passengers who report us for suspicious conduct on planes. soon we will be able to do what we want and when we want. in america you can go into any church and listen to what they say, but you are not allowed to go into a mosque and listen - that would deny us our religious freedom - so you have no idea what is preached there.
we do not care about now, or the loss of life. we are fighting for a higher purpose. kill a thousand, hundred thousand, or a million of us, and we will not stop. kill our women or children and then remember that we have not stoped since the blessed prophet put us on this path to conversion by violence in 629 ad and we will not stop until the entire world is islamic.
allah akbar!

TO: Miguel:

The Old Testament, the same one that teaches “Thou Shalt Not Kill” is indeed full of the contradictions you have itemized. But it is not possible to find a single passage in the New Testament, the foundation for the Christian religion, that justifies murder, violence or harm to any other group. The numerous perversion perpetrated by Christian in the last 2000 years are their own inventions, but they find no support from the New Testament.

The article I linked you to from my comment, stands on its own evidence in the Holy Koran, and must be dealt with in those terms.

Daniel,

I wanted to stop the dialogue with people who hold to their misguided opinions as dear life, butyour last post to Victoria and myself force me to reply.
You say that reading books has so numbed your mind that you now can no longer think but let deep=frozen canned ideas pop into your mind. And of course, you extol science.
Well, let me tell you how reading books make me love both science and Islam.
You no doubt read around a week ago the news about the discovery final of the mathematical symmetry called E-8. This is a lie group (in the Abstract.Algebra/Group.Theory sense) that holds promise of yielding testable predictions of string theory in physics. Now, string theory itself was developed as a result of a mathematician (Idon't readily have the exact name)toying with Euler's Beta function and finding that it has symmetries that could explain, without contradictions, all of: the general and special theory of realtivity, quantum mechanics, and quatum gravity -- essentially a major step in the search for the theory of everything.
Independently, I myself (I have a combined honours in Economics and Math plus an ABD in Economics) have been toying with the idea of reconciling the mathematical-physics modeling of a particle as a point and Dedekind's
mathematical-analysis notion of a point being itself an open set. Such thoughts inevitably lead you to the suggestion that a particle should more correctly be modelled not just as a point or a wave but as a string. Independently of my thoughts, of course, more rigorous and dedicated physicists have found, along that same line of reasoning, a more rigorous justification of string theory. E-8 goes further along this same line of enquiry. Although, not being either a physicist or a high-powered mathematician myself, I don't yet understand how the recent discoveries about E-8 might yield testable predictions about string theory, I would be wrong in thinking that reading too many books in science has numbed my thinking.
Similarly about 'religion' (I have now formulated my own definition of that term, but it will be unwieldy to explain that here), I first got seduced with the idea of the Brights movement, I read several of Daniel Dennet's books and articles, I sought to confront the scientific arguments with the ideas, notions and values of religion (Islamic as well as Christian, Hindu, Buddhits etc. together with the study of the Skeptics as well as the data/test-based investigations of the Deity as conceived in Philosophersnet.org) and, to quote one of the conclusions that convince me in my cogitations, I cannot but reject as thoroughly absurd Daniel Dennet's affirmation (reached after long years of study of what is consciousness) that, in the final analysis, the mind is nothing but the brain!
The first two crucial distinctions that Economists are taught to make are: first, the fallacy of composition (among which, the concepts that characterise the individual is not the same that chracterise the collective), and, second, for the same quantities, there are flows and there are stocks -- their properties are different. This latter distinction -- flow and stock -- has a parallel in the distinction between an event and a process. Relations (with one another, with the transcendental -- call it the divine if you want, call it evolution of the gene and the meme [sorry I cannot explain the latter term here if you don't already know it])become meaningful only with time, it is a process not an event.
As I reflected about the religion I was born in and sought to find contradictions (even today I describe myself as a Muslim-boderline-agnostic), unlike Bertrand Russell who thought he had found enough grouns to assert WHY I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN, i have not found enough evidence to say why I should not be a Muslim.
My self-examination continues.
Let me leave you with the final word. Andre Malraux is quoted as having said Le Vingt-et-Unieme Siecle Sera Spirituelle ou Ne le Sera Pas [The 21st Century Will Be Spiritual Or There Won't Be Any 21st Century]. I won;t take a position on that affirmation, but the conclusion of the experts of edge.org that in 25 years there won't be any religion is simply mistaken, for the simple fact, if no other, that it does not define what is religion. My final word is this: if you are concerned that Islam is doomed because it is backward, I assure you that Islam will, if only a small part thanks to Tariq Ramadan, know a Revival -- Not a Reformation like Martin Luther's, nor a Revolution like the Enlightenment] -- that will catalult it to a higher path of self-awareness in the quest for the betterment of the human race in harmony with the rest of creation, including beyond Planet Earth, and Beyond our solar system.

Nofoolhere;

I find the old testament very bloody. thus you mean that all christians and jews must repudiate it too?

for your info:

List of capital crimes in the bible:

Murder (Exodus 21:12, Exodus 21:15)
Kidnapping (Exodus 21:16)
Disobedience to parents (Exodus 21:17, Deuteronomy 21:18)
Juvenile delinquency - incorrigibility (Deuteronomy 21:18-21)
Bestiality (Leviticus 20:15)
Violations of the Sabbath (Exodus 31:15)
Adultery (Leviticus 20:10)
Abominations (Leviticus 20:2)
Blasphemy (Leviticus 24:16)
Incest (Leviticus 20:11)
Homosexuality (Leviticus 20:13)
Witchcraft (Exodus 22:18, Leviticus 20:27)
False prophecy (Deuteronomy 13:5)
Worshipping a false god (Deuteronomy 13:6-10)
Sacrificing to false gods (Exodus 22:20)
Sodomy (Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13)
Sex with a woman betrothed to another (Deuteronomy 22:25)
False witness in a capital crime (Deuteronomy 19:16-20)
Fornication by daughters of priests (Leviticus 21:9)
Failure to abide by a decision of the High Court (Deuteronomy 17:12)
Unchastity (Deuteronomy 22:21-24)
Cursing someone (Leviticus 24:14)
Negligence resulting in death (Exodus 21:29)

Again, man is made of mud; and stains eveything he touches. reason must prevail. islam/christianity/judaism are not better or worse; are personal religions to be kept personal.
99.99% of people follow their birth religion, not the most likeable/logical/clearer one, etc. so it's a question of birth and not choice.

Dear Andy - I am moved by your comments and here I am paying my utmost respect to you and all those who believe in Oneness of Humanity, regardless whence they come from. It is thro this Love of Oneness that we can share our common ancestry and remove our differences, as personified here by hatred and vile remarks. Humans have the capacity to be stained by their own ego or elevate themselves to Divine status to experience unconditional love. All religions came to deliver this message, except that ego concentrated on the books and religions and forgot about the message which is That Love cleans all souls just like the rain that falls over all, fertile and non-fertile land, eexcept only the fertile land produces fruit So is love wasted on the heart that are shut from receiving Her? Never. Love is never wasted since it is about giving and not about receiving. Dear Andy: if you have read this far then email me directly for it takes One to know One. ahmed.asgher@gmail.com

This is a typical apologist article in behalf of Islam. Don’t fall for it.

I posted the link below on another blog, and I’m posting it again here because more American’s need to become aware of the profound influence of the Holy Koran on Moslems. The real reason for militant Islam (to acquire absolute global control) where it is found, is inspired by the presence of inflammatory verses in the Holy Koran. These verses mandate death to the infidel, that is, to any person not of Islam. This is not fiction, this is the written word of Islam’s prophet, Muhammad.

Nobody should make policy with reference to Islam without knowing about these damning passages and understanding their political significance. To date, they are entirely ignored based on all the public pronouncements I have been able to find in the western world’s relationship with Islam. Here they are again.

http://www.ot-mp.net/notes.html#militant%20Islam-evidence

Please also read the compelling letter (You Worry Me) written by an American Airlines pilot re his experience with Moslems that is linked from this page.

ISLAMIC RELIGIOUS AUTHORITIES NEED TO PUBLICALLY REFUTE AND REPUDIATE THESE DAMNING PASSAGES FROM THEIR KORAN THAT ARE PRESENTED IN THE ABOVE LINK. The reasons should be obvious to any person who reads them.

Accepts Jesus?
Muslems already accept Jesus. Name me another religion besides Christians sects who accept jesus and have Jesus in their holy book like Muslems do? The ignorance is unbearable!

When the guy accepts Jesus as his personal savior then we should consider allowing him into the U.S. Not before. When he contributes approximately twice as much to Republican campaigns as he as to Hamas then we should seriously consider allowing him in.

Hatem;

Murders in iraq and darfur ( the word is Murder) is due to:
Iraq; the invasion. when social order falls; this happens, i've seen this in Nicaragua, Rwanda( full genocide, and all christians),Colombia ( marxist guerillas, but still much christian), cambodia, etc. this is the effect of an invasion gone badly, so don't blame the victims.
btw in LA i saw all the devastation due to what was seen as a racist veredict. again destruction and fall of social order.
Darfur: shephards against herdsmen. and due to cliamte change; we may see many more such cases.

This is not to say that no murder has been made in the name of the lord. but don't blame the lord nor the religion of the misguided ones. i personally belief the lord made humans out of mud; and everything humans touch, gets stained

I think everyone should come to their own conclusions concerning persons like Tariq Ramadan. I have made up my mind on him a few years ago, while visiting the library of Paris-based l'institut du monde arabe. I had a chance to read some stuff produced by this man, and came to a conclusion that is a first-rate hate-monger and nothing else. There are two groups of commentators on terrorism: those who are "against terror, period", and those who are "against terror, BUT...." Ramadan is firmly in the second camp, so for me he does not exist as a thinker and commentator.

It is amazing how we are getting people from other countries who want to be here for the freedoms it allows, but yet they won't fight and die in their countries for these same freedoms as our for fathers did in this country. Instead we go and fight for them. How dumb are we?
IF YOU DON'T LIKE AMERICA THEN GET THE HLL OUT!

what is wrong with frank collins? its a fine family name. and now its a fine islamic name, allah be praised. and im just telling you what the problems are. idolitors like hindus are scum. and do not mock the koran and islam, it is the word of allah as given to us by the blessed prophet. there can be no peace until the vermin that infest the planet are removed, they are offensive to allah. what greater sin in the eyes of allah than to say that a man born of a woman is god.
here is what the koran and the hadith says:
The Hadith No. 284, The Muslim, volume one, says that any Jew or Christian, who heard of Muhammad but did not convert to Islam, and died in disbelief, would rot in hell! Thus Islam withdraws from all Jews and Christians the right to believe in their faiths, and pratice them as such.
"The unbelievers of the People of the Book and the idolators shall be in the Fire of Hell therein dwelling for ever; those are the worst of creatures. But those who believe, and do righteous deeds, those are the best of creatures..." (XCVIII: The Clear Sign: 5)
Here those Jews and Christians, who spurn Islam, have been lumped together with the idolators such as the Hindus, and classified as 'the worst of creatures'. Therefore the Koran commands:
"O believers, take not as your friends those of them, who were given the Book before you, and the unbelievers, who take your religion in mockery and as a sport..." (V: The Table: 60)
"The true believers say: Has not God ordered a chapter that commands the holy war" (Sura 47:22); or elsewhere: "Kill the idolaters wherever you find them, imprison them, besiege them, ambush them" (Sura 9:5); and, "Make war on unbelievers" (Sura 9:29). "When you come upon unbelievers, massacre them, tighten the bands of the captives that you will have taken. Then you will set them free, or you will release them for a ransom" (Sura 8:57).
"To Allah, there are no animals viler than those who do not believe and remain unbelievers" (Sura 8:57). That is why it is necessary to Islamize them by force and by humiliation. And those who resist Islam and its founder must be chastised, according to the Koran: "Here is the fate of those who fight Allah and his messenger: you will put them to death or you will make them suffer the torture of the cross; you will cut their hands and their feet alternately. They will be driven from the country" (Sura 5:37).
"Do not display cowardice, and do not call the infidels to peace when you are superior to them" (Sura 47:22).
4.89": They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
"4.90": Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them.
"4.91": You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority.

Religions should be respected, but I see Muslim American's answer to Hatem is that America should have higher standards. The war in Iraq is definitely not a religious one, more an economic play gone very badly to extend the US power base in the Middle East to keep getting black gold. MOST majority Islamic countries do NOT give equal rights to minority religions, and the center of the faith......Saudia Arabia.....is the among least tolerant of them all. Rome in contrast allows other religions. One can site the atrocities committed there in the past of course, but I think we are supposed to talk about the present. Tolerance should be granted on BOTH sides.....but the Middle East is definitely not granted reciprocity. I do not foresee that happening.

roger and mus american

all the instances you describe of christians killing others was NOT DONE IN THE NAME OF CHRISTIANITY, a major point of difference

as for the iraq war, while I agree that the reasons it started were based on half-truths and exaggerration the reality is that the thousands dying every day are dying at the hands of Muslim insurgents not American soldiers...so where are the cries of condemnation from the Muslims?????

Its amazing, you hear a story about a suicide bomber who killed schoolchildren in Baghdad and the Muslims reaction is "Bush started the war!!!", what about a simple "those suicide bombers are destroying Iraq! Somebody needs to stop them!"

"Frank Collins?" I understand using a fake name on a forum, but do you honestly believe that anyone thinks you're an American?

Anyway, the author is half right. Islam is not the enemy. Religion is the enemy -- religion and the brain-dead drooling zombies who venerate its ridiculous mythologies and defend them against all reason and logic. Until we realize that all gods are equally false, we're going to keep having this stupid argument, and innocent blood will be shed over and over again. Is a little false hope for an afterlife worth creating misery and destruction in this life?

Frank Collins;

I travel a lot, have many hindu friends and i find offensive your statement about them not to mention the other enemies you mention.
I do find some idol woshipper hindu's more trustworthy and better persons than many muslims/christians/jews/atheists/ etc.

So you say only if everybody becomes muslim will be peace on earth? and if that's the case; which sect? shia, sunni, sufi, etc?
which muslim country do you see as a shining example to follow?
I like islam, i don't like some muslims.

What twaddle you spout Muslim-American, tell us why Sudanese muslims not only kill and enslave Christians and animists but now turn their attention in Darfur to killing fellow muslims? I thought muslim ape did not kill muslim ape, what happened? In Somalia your UIC friends just got their heads handed to them by the Eithiopians and of course, they wet their beds and snivelled that this was not the holy war they dreamed about. Apparently you only like one-sided holy wars. How do you like 'dem apples now? Also, I am an islamopath, not an islamophobe. Do you know the difference?

the enemy is not islam. the enemy is the idolitors who pray to idols like the hindu's. the koran says they are vile and the lowest of the low. and jews they are the enemy - and the christians - they too are the enemy. the christians think that we have to believe that a man born of a woman is god. that is absurd, there is only one god, allah and the blessed prophet told us. there are no need for other religions, just islam, which means submission. so submit yourself to the will of allah and there will be peace on the earth and allah and his blessed prophet, the last prophet to walk the earth, will also be happy.

As a Catholic I wish to make peace with Muslims all over the world. You have your beliefs which are much different then mine but I believe we can co-exist in a democratic society and bring friendship and charity to those who suffer from poverty. I love working as a volunteer for habitat for humanity. Maybe one day we can work together and build homes for the needed.

Peace

i condemn all those instances you mentioned hatem. remember though, we're in america, so we should have higher standards. also don't forget that the american government lied to start a war in iraq that has resulted in the death of hundreds of thousands of iraqis and 3 thousand americans (not to mention all the physically and psychologically wounded). where are the human rights in that? where is the Jesus and Christianity in starting a war based on lies?

There are many comments and extreamists both from the left and right but there are hopes and the best postings are by Andy. Heartworming and clear. Andy do you have a website, please post them and save it nice poems, best and balance view of humanity that has room for everybody.

To all the extreamists that want to impose their view in a public forum I will suggest them please do not waste your time here but go and read. Educate on a subject first specially about a religion like Islam that has a fifth of humanity and the fastest growing one in the west.

And finally remember over 10 million was killed in Europe by the leaders followed Christianity, 3 million Japanese killed by the same religious people, 3 million killed in Cambodia by the Buddists leaders, 600,000 killed in Iraq, 100,000 killed in Afghanistan by Bushgangs- christians, and 3000 killed by Bin Laden followers, do some math and please read, guns are not going to solve any problem, we have to think and let other think. Please respect others views so you would be respected as well. Thanks.

supposed to say

DO YOU UNDERSTAND NOW WHY ABUSES AGAINST MUSLIMS IN NON-MUSLIM COUNTRIES ARE TINY COMPARED TO THE ENORMOUS TERROR UNLEASHED AGAINST NON-MUSLIMS IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES????????

mus american wrote:

"also hatem. you condemn (rightly) human rights abuses of non-muslims in muslim countries. do you condemn the racism and ignorance against muslims in the United States? do you condemn the hateful and islamaphobic posts on this blog?"

Sure there are abuses against muslims in the US I contend but NOWHERE ON THE SAME SCALE as what happens to non-muslims in muslim countries. So even though in your mind it is fair to mention both, putting the two would actually diminish the magnitude of abuse heaped on non-muslims in muslim countries.

To illustrate:

In France, muslim girls cannot wear headscarves in public school COMPARED TO
In Saudi Arabia, Christians banned from having churches or private services. If a Bible is caught in their possession, then imprisonment or lashes.

In the supposed intolerant USA, non-greencard, non-citizens from Muslim countries with links to terrorism (ranging from strong, e.g Iran or weak e.g UAE, Egypt) have to file extra paperwork upon entry and exit at airports
COMPARED to
in the supposed moderate Egypt, Bahaii religion are not considered a real religion causing them to be ineligible for public school, and other government benefits. Not to mention the fact that government sanctioned or ignored anti-Christian discrimination rampant since time immeasurable.

In the supposed intolerant USA, some online blogs and a couple of TV channels host people expressing angry anti-Islam speech
COMPARED to
In many Islamic countries EVERY FRIDAY you can hear the imam's sermons blasting the West and the Infidels (aka non-Muslim native Christians too) as well as the DAILY glorification of "martyrdom operations (aka suicide bombing)" on all media outlets

In the supposed intolerant USA, universities host many pro-Muslim speakers but on rare occasions (e.g. Tariq Ramadan) they are denied visas
In unversities in Egypt, Palestine, Iran ANY person discussing a book, seminar with mildly anti-Islamic overtones gets chased away, arrested, threatened with death or yes killed (Salman Rushdie, Farag Foda) or their books BANNED countrywide (Haider Haider for A Banquet for Seaweed).

ANd finally to discuss the WAPO piece. You lament the one incident of a security guard freaking out when he saw a Muslim man wash his feet in the sink in a public, communal bathroom(honestly, couldnt he go into a one-person bathroom to do that, hospitals have one-person bathrooms with lockable doors).
COMPARE THAT with
non-Muslim schoolchildren in Muslim countries getting their cross necklaces mocked or ripped from them (happened to a friend of mine, her family chose to emigrate), called infidels to their faces, semi-regular incidents of church attacks, forced conversions and so on.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND NOW WHY ABUSES AGAINST MUSLIMS IN NON-MUSLIM COUNTRIES ARE TINY COMPARED TO THE ENORMOUS TERROR UNLEASHED AGAINST NON-MUSLIMS IN NON-MUSLIM COUNTRIES????????

PS An exception to the above is the Bosnian war but ironically Western NATO and American forces fought a Western country on the behalf of a Muslim nation, while the troops of other Muslim countries did NOTHING.

The current Adminsitration is afraid of Islam and Muslims in general, obvious racism by our current leadership.

Hating Islam for whatever reason dates back to the Christian Crusades and should be dropped as our government does not follow religious guidelines and should not.

Identifying islam as evil is simple Christian thinking that is wrong thinking.

Mr. Bush is turning America into a Race Hating environment focused at mimnorities. Divisive politics; divide and conqueor. Old! Imus and others are following suit quickly.

also hatem. you condemn (rightly) human rights abuses of non-muslims in muslim countries. do you condemn the racism and ignorance against muslims in the United States? do you condemn the hateful and islamaphobic posts on this blog?

see the washington post yesterday for a story about a Muslim American doctor who was in a hospital about to get surgery for oral cancer. he was washing himself in the bathroom to prepare for his prayers and was physically abused and harassed by a security guard for no reason other than ignorance and hate.

btw glen, he gave money to a charity which had alleged ties to terrorist organizations. did you know that every large charity including the red cross has put money in the wrong hands? a lot of it is innocent while some is quite guilty. it's an unfortunate thing but you cannot blame someone who is clearly a moderate.

additionally, you probably buy gasoline. if that's the case, then you should get out of our country because that money is going to terrorism and extremism and by your own rules, that's grounds for not being allowed in the US. oh and you probably pay taxes. same thing. $9bn of taxpayer money went missing in Iraq. whatever didn't go to halliburton probably was distributed to various folks inside iraq who didn't intend to use it for peaceful means. in fact, some of that money was probably used to kill innocent iraqi civilians and US soldiers. so unless you want to be a hypocrite, leave the United States.

I wish the wash Post wouldnt post anything about Islam. It seems like all the idiots and bigots in America show up to post. To Muhammad in Canada. My brother, peace upon you, but do not waste your breath teaching cattle who refuse to learn or hear( sura baqarah). They are like cattle, who follow each other in a line just eating grass with their hearts sealed up and wax in their ears. I have long given up trying to teach racists their words are wrong. Look at the blacks, do you not see what the white anglo christians did to them? God had to change it for them and they still face racism. As for us muslems in America, do not worry. This country is great and a few bigots cannot stop the fact that we have assimilated extremely well here and 65% of us( based on Zogby poll) have at least a bachelors degree.
Let the bigots ignore the fact that the West created the worst wars in the world. The west nuked cities. The West destroyed entire countries simply for the countries minerals and resources. Bin laden would need 3 milliniums to do the destruction that bush has done.
As for Bin laden and his like, May God mete out his punishment upon you and your like for the murders you have committed in our great religions name. May no one follow you and the cave you hide in fall down upon you.
As for Tariq Ramadan, if he was such a bad guy, why was he appointed by Tony Blair?
Oh, one more thing, for the racists, you guys remind me of Al qaeda thinking, So im gonna call all the racists who post and think that way, The American branch of Alqaeda.

i haven't read every post but i've seen enough to see that islamaphobia is rampant in the US and people do not have a true understanding of Islam. ignorance and hate are the result. tariq ramadan has engaged in peaceful dialogue and called for an end to extremism and condemned terrorism. a few posters keep on insisting that he and other muslims do things that they/we have already done.

we americans have to recognize the extreme hypocrisy in our democracy. the us government has continually supported extremism and terrorism. anyone who pays their taxes or buys gas is supporting extremism and terrorism. people have such short memories and forget that bin laden and saddam hussein were america's best friends in the 80s and were supported by our tax dollars. people forget that saudi arabia and the bush family have been best friends for most of the 20th century.

oil empowers extremists and dictators both secular and religious. america is a glutton when it comes to oil consumption and our SUV obsessed society prevents moderate muslims from having any hope or chance for democracy. instead it has quite the opposite effects as the corrupt dictators allow extremists to organize and become empowered because politically speaking they wouldn't want to be perceived as shutting down faith and the mosque. the result is extremist groups who are the only ones with power other than the monarchs or dictators.

people label islam and muslims as anti-semitic. while some muslims are that way, most of us just disagree with israeli policy and occupation against palestinians. we equally disagree with suicide bombing and murder as a response. it should not be taboo to criticze the israeli government. dialogue in israel exists on this subject much more so than it does in the United States. fact of the matter is the majority of muslims, jews, christians, agnostics, hindus, atheists, etc want peace and opportunity in the world.

it looks like hatem is obsessed with the issue of apostasy. islamic law, just like the US constitution, is supposed to evolve with time. apostasy in early Islam was considered treason and punishable by death because islam was a nation state as well as a religion when it was founded. apostates at that point in history were generally benedict arnolds who had treasonous intentions against the state. however, history has evolved and the argument of punishing apostates by death can no longer fly.

in malaysia, the supreme court ruled in an apostasy case in recent years that apostasy violates islamic law, but it is a personal religious law that is violated, not a societal law. basically, leaving the faith was a sin under shariah, but that sin was between the apostate and God.

Here is an article from the Christian Science Monitor that is entitled 'The Myth of Muslim Support for Terror'

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0223/p09s01-coop.html

some highlights that may surprise some people and also point out further hypocrisy.

The survey, conducted in December 2006 by the University of Maryland's prestigious Program on International Public Attitudes, shows that only 46 percent of Americans think that "bombing and other attacks intentionally aimed at civilians" are "never justified," while 24 percent believe these attacks are "often or sometimes justified."

Contrast those numbers with 2006 polling results from the world's most-populous Muslim countries – Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Nigeria. Terror Free Tomorrow, the organization I lead, found that 74 percent of respondents in Indonesia agreed that terrorist attacks are "never justified"; in Pakistan, that figure was 86 percent; in Bangladesh, 81 percent

It is more important what a person does than what he says. This man gave money to a terror organization and it disqualifies him from getting a visa under our current laws. What is so difficult to understand about that? You can talk and talk and talk to these guys but they still support the propagation of Islam by any means, including terror. If they support a terror organization with their money, then I don't want them in the USA. If I were to give money to George W. Bush and then tell you that I did not support him, what would your response be to that?

Tariq Ramadan should have been admitted into the US. Much worse people than he have come here, and we have equally dangerous people living here. That being said, people should confront him about what he really thinks. My sense is that he truly believes his own propaganda. Dismantling that propaganda is what needs to happen so that people can see for themselves that the emperor has no clothes. Fight words with words instead of this silly business of not allowing him into the country.

If Mr Ramadan states that these topics are immune from dialogue since they are explicitly WRONG then he should be admitted in the USA:

1. Destruction of Israel

2. Punishment of Muslims who convert to another religion

3. Glorification of suicide bombers

4. Women beating

5. Dhimmi status on non-Muslims in Muslim countries

I await...

People on the right are restricted to criticize Islam, immigration, etc. A story about that is at the URL at my name.

Having heard Tariq Ramadan participate in various debates and conferences, I can only say that the word "dialogue" involves listening to each other and however intelligent and knowledgeable he is, he doesn't listen. I have thought that he is very manipulative, sly and dangerous - but this said, these aren't reasons to keep him out of the U.S. They are perhaps reasons to begin thinking about what the limits to free speech are - can we say that Israel should be eliminated? that Jews should be killed? that women should be beaten? Just to take something from today's headlines - can you describe a rugby team as "nappy-haired ho's"?

thats should read

You can disagree with them but theyre not calling for the execution of those who disagree with them.

Victoria and Mohamed,

The whole apostasy as treason appeasement argument is the crux of the problem. In all non-Islamic countries, any enforcement of the death penalty is NOT done in the name of religion. It is due to secular justice. When you mix your religion with the right to kill, that is a surefire mix to terrorism since every terorist will say :"Hey, God said its OK!"

Hope will only appear when all Muslims regard their religion between them and God and not as a government rulebook when to officially kill, amputate and stone; and when moderate Muslims condemn those who believe in the latter.

That is also why I find it humorous when lefties compare Muslim and Christian extremists. Christian extremists in the USA fight for life (abortion, stem cell, etc). You can disagree with them but theyre not calling for the execution of those who believe in them.

To Victoria and Mohamed Malleck, I give you the last word, but I am not convinced. Sorry. I pity you actually. I have garbage bags full of books at home. my entire life has been ruined by reading. I suppose I could be totally wrong and I have found to my chagrin great limitations in my ability to think--in fact I never think and only have thoughts just jump into my head--but to the best of my ability the religion of Islam is not conducive to science and is incompatible with democracy. I find the golden age of Islamic scientists to be not a defense of Islam but courageous men in the line of science that fortunately have been remembered and will be most championed by the Western world. I believe in the universality of science and not any religion now existing. Perhaps there will be a universal religion in the future compatible with science, but for now I stand with science against religion and hope rather in spirituality to infuse science. I have nothing more to say. I find this whole discussion silly really. I see an increasing conflict between Islam and the West and the Far East. Sorry. Modernize or be finished. Science, democracy, etc. You keep trying to convince us of Islam but it will not happen. I read most of the Koran--got tired of it about 3/4 of the way through. Sounded like a template for totalitarianism to me. All seeing eye of state just waiting for the technology to put it definitively into operation (Allah knows all you do!). Ironic how the west creates technology which can make the definitive totalitarian state possible but strives for democracy while places like the Islamic world subscribe to totalitarian ideologies (in Islam's case religion is totalitarianism) yet cannot create the technology to put beliefs totally into action because of a hatred of free thought and science to make it so...I have nothing more to say. Allah apparently knows everything....

To Victoria and Mohamed Malleck, I give you the last word, but I am not convinced. Sorry. I pity you actually. I have garbage bags full of books at home. my entire life has been ruined by reading. I suppose I could be totally wrong and I have found to my chagrin great limitations in my ability to think--in fact I never think and only have thoughts just jump into my head--but to the best of my ability the religion of Islam is not conducive to science and is incompatible with democracy. I find the golden age of Islamic scientists to be not a defense of Islam but courageous men in the line of science that fortunately have been remembered and will be most championed by the Western world. I believe in the universality of science and not any religion now existing. Perhaps there will be a universal religion in the future compatible with science, but for now I stand with science against religion and hope rather in spirituality to infuse science. I have nothing more to say. I find this whole discussion silly really. I see an increasing conflict between Islam and the West and the Far East. Sorry. Modernize or be finished. Science, democracy, etc. You keep trying to convince us of Islam but it will not happen. I read most of the Koran--got tired of it about 3/4 of the way through. Sounded like a template for totalitarianism to me. All seeing eye of state just waiting for the technology to put it definitively into operation (Allah knows all you do!). Ironic how the west creates technology which can make the definitive totalitarian state possible but strives for democracy while places like the Islamic world subscribe to totalitarian ideologies (in Islam's case religion is totalitarianism) yet cannot create the technology to put beliefs totally into action because of a hatred of free thought and science to make it so...I have nothing more to say. Allah apparently knows everything....

Mohammad

Islam is also an idolatrous religion based around the personality of prophet Muhammad. Idols do not necessarily have to be made of clay or wood or metal or be drawn on paper. The most dangerous idol is the type created with words, as Muhammad did with Allah. He created this idol with his words and imagination and ascribed to it statements that to this day are doing great damage to Muslims and non-Muslims. Read sura 111 in which the idol Allah, read Muhammad, denounces the aunt and uncle of Muhammad and threatens to put a rope around his aunt's neck. This type of brutality has permeated into the mindset of the folowers and in part explains the brutality practised by a large section of the population.

as far as the idea that muslims kill apostates-

there are some muslims in the world with tiny hearts and brains- they interpret the qur'an with the same mentality that fundamentalists everywhere do- in a simplistic and literal way.

in islam - it is not even apostasy that is punishable by death-

the brother from canada?(i believe) started to talk about it-

it is a muslim that leaves islam, and then goes to another country, or state, and gives away secrets of thecommunity, and aids and abets in the killing of muslims, or making warfare on them.

this is not apostasy- this is treason.
in america treason is punishable by death

in islam it is punished by death or the second option of exile.

it is not apostasy as so many have misunderstood-
sadly within the muslim community all over the world.

treason is a crime punished by death in many countries including ours.

daniel- as far as your disappointment over my inability to provide you with infromation that made you happy as far as science goes- i prefaced the links with an apology that i am not knowledgable about science-

and the conversation was about the ATTITUDE of islam towards science- as you had imagined that it persecuted scientists as the catholic church had.

which is not the same as substantiating islaminc scientific achievements in the present which i am ill suited to do anyway.

as you said-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"It makes us ask why all those Islamic scientists never really had an effect--except insofar as their accomplishments became known in the West."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

actually the links, if you read them, contained literally hundreds of examples of science in islam being seminal to many western developments.

as a great man once said- we are all standing on the shoulders of giants-

one civilization rises, and falls, another rises in its place building upon what it learns from the prior knowledge-

and religions themselves have reformations and golden ages , fall, and reform themselves anew.

as i am an american born woman, who was christian, and studied extensively- i came to islam through prayer-

that i itself is not very scientific-

but there are other things islam has besides architecture and music etc..etc...

these are THINGS and the discussion of things is the hallmark of mediocre minds

when the realm of ideas is explored, islam has many mature and wise premises-
and much practical wisdom in living in peace with others.

but as has been lamented- it requires a mutual respect, and a listening also.

to borrow from the buddhists, one cannot fill a glass that is already full. the glass must be emptied.

if one imagines they already have full knowledge of islam, when their information is not coming from its adherents, but those who actively hate or seek to destroy it-
then their glasses have already been filled and there is little chance that any can satisfy their
preconceived ideas- it cant be squeezed into an existing paradigm to suit the listeners, but must be approached freshly and openly.
peace

I agree with ADDICTED. So much for "free speech."

It is free speech only when the rightwingnuts are spewing their venom at others...

Thank you for this post, Mr. Banchoff. I'd only encourage more.

"The Israel Lobby does not want Muslims like Ramadan to come here."

Beware the anti-Semites lurking.

http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20061010-090344-6384r.htm

If the op-ed is true -- and it seems reasonable to assume Rachel Ehrenfled has it right -- then Ramadan has a long and disappointing track record of actions that aid and abet terrorist killers. He appears to be an unrepentant apologist for Hamas, supporter of Al Qaeda and a pathological liar. What is it about such a profile that should inspire the trust of the U.S. government and its citizens? Though compelling to read, the gifted Ian Buruma was truly snookered in writing what turned out to be a sublime puff piece on Ramadan. Read here:
liar.http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/04/magazine/04ramadan.t.html?ex=1328245200&en=2c69215fb7d2aaee&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

I learned that the ruling of death to apostates did not come from the Koran, but instead from Caliph Omar. Following the death of the prophet Muhammad, he was concerned that the new converts would revert back to their old faiths. To guard against that, he established the death-for-apostasy ruling.

I think it is so important that when we study Islam (and other religions) that we work hard to understand the religious texts in their proper historical contexts. Otherwise, this can lead us to misunderstand the nature of Islam (and other religions).

On another note, can we have one online thread where someone does not bring up the boogeyman of the "evil" Israel lobby and say horrible things about Israel? It's just ridiculous.

Ramadan would have been an asset to Notre Dame, and the Bushies were stupid to deny him the visa. However, our terrorism funding laws have caught numerous people in their dragnet, who the law wasn't intended for. This includes Iraqis and Montangnards (Vietnamese hill tribes) seeking asylum in this country. This is not the responsiblity of Israel or the Israel lobby. Sheesh.

Land of the 'free', home of the 'brave' indeed.

Not free enough to let someone disagree. Not brave enough to let someone talk...

To think that I once looked up to the US as a model for every other country in the world to follow!

let's just nuke all the motherf----rs, yeah? that sounds like a good plan of action.

What a bunch of ignorant, hateful, base, driveling bullcrap. the intelligent comments (and there are some) are drowned by the bigotry. disagree vehemently, go for it, but what is this, middle school? grow up people. do us a favor and stop trying to get off from spitting vitriolic spittle across the internet.

I'm not sure if I'm angry or just sad that people actually propagate this stuff.

The main problem with the US government is its unwillingness to accept anything involved with Islam. You cannot ascribe democracy at least in American terms to an Islamic country as Islam is involved in everything they do including politics. The fact of the matter is the US does not want to hear opinions contradictory to theirs, this is obvious in foreign relations as well as in Bush's heavy handed policy and rubric towards congress. He is of the school of thought that if you arent with us you're against us which does not work in politics or life, I have no doubt that Ramadan was turned down for his visa for this exact reason. If Bush could round up all those who oppose him and lock them up I firmly believe that he would do it with no hesitation.

I could care less about what happens to your country Angry Iraqi. I am only concerned that the US has bases from which to lauch attacks on Syria and Iran and this is now the case. As a side benefit muslims are killing muslims, like in Darfur, and I can only encourage all of you to kill yourselves.

the author states "that policy is a disaster". This is a classic straw dog; the author neither explains nor proves this statement. Without this logical base, the rest of the article is devoid of value.

So, the United States government didn't give a visa to a second rate intolerant Muslim professor. super.

"The latter is a fascist, a bigot, a sexist, and an apologist for Islamists."

How unfair and character assassination-like. Let the man speak and let us judge for ourselves...That's all!

There are at least two Tariq Ramadans. There is the public Ramadan who appears tolerant, pragmatic, and even democratic. And there is the private Ramadan, the ideologue of the Muslim brotherhood, who shows his true face to the faithful only. The latter is a fascist, a bigot, a sexist, and an apologist for Islamists. To my knowledge, Tariq Ramadan has never condoned violence in Algeria. This issue aside, people who have been led to believe that he is a great thinker do not know that his pamphlets (that some call books), contains superficial thought only. It could not be otherwise because Islamism is by its very nature an ideology that masquerades as science, and lofty thought. But the main problem that I have with Tariq Ramadan is his vision for Muslim societies. He is more dangerous than the Islamists, who plant bombs and blow themselves up, because he “produces” the very ideology which guides these Islamists. I pity the students at Oxford University; they are not going to get their money’s worth. These are not the opinion of a Westerner, but of a Muslim, who believe that Islamism is fascism.

There are at least two Tariq Ramadans. There is the public Ramadan who appears tolerant, pragmatic, and even democratic. And there is the private Ramadan, the ideologue of the Muslim brotherhood, who shows his true face to the faithful only. The latter is a fascist, a bigot, a sexist, and an apologist for Islamists. To my knowledge, Tariq Ramadan has never condoned violence in Algeria. This issue aside, people who have been led to believe that he is a great thinker do not know that his pamphlets (that some call books), contains superficial thought only. It could not be otherwise because Islamism is by its very nature an ideology that masquerade as science, and lofty thought. But the main problem that I have with Tariq Ramadan is his vision for Muslim societies. He is more dangerous than the Islamists, who plant bombs and blow themselves up, because he “produces” the very ideology which guides these Islamists. I pity the students at Oxford University; they are not going to get their money’s worth. These are not the opinion of a Westerner, but of a Muslim, who believe that Islamism is fascism.

Alexis the hater bemonas, "Mexico more free?! HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!"

Typical white male arrogant self of you? Don't worry, your kind are on the ropes. Your selfish, crudly biased FauxNEws can't help keep up the propaganda for too long.

I recenlty saw O'Reilly kicking and screaming because his loser Irish self wanted to scapegoat Hispanics and hard-working immigrants for the crime of one man.

The country has gotten sick with the white Republican lies - Don Imus you hear that? - in Iraq, WMDs, "Islamic facist" rants. 19 men rammed planes into Twin Towers, what did 100s of Washington white crony politicians do? Send thousands upon thousands of young people to fight and die and in the process kill and unleash mayhem throughout the region brining unstability and deaths to half a million Iraqi Muslims and Christians. So that's the price in human lives and treasure according to YOUR FASCIST, PRO-WHITE, BLUE-EYED, FLAG-WAVING your willing to compare to 2,900 people killed on 9-11.

Ideology sells and apparently your a victim of the neoconservative one.

Pity Iraq and its treasure being staked off to foot the bill of the country whose infrastructure was destroyed by the gov't of very corporations who wants to now rebuild it?

The Iraqi gov't is a treasonous servitude of its colonizers in the "Green Zone" who are the true appeasers of the US Republicon machine.

They're now being thrown a bone as their loyal servitude. I say, would you do the same if your country - America - was attacked by an invader who hated your leader and wanted to impose "freedom" and "democracy" on you? Would you fight and resist or shower them with your precious natural oil wealth?

Indoctrinated Alexis, blind to see the other's POV!!!

"The left and right divide in the United States is a perfect example."

"Its a robotic conviction suggesting indoctrination."

"We gave you TV & Satellites & the Moon on a silver platter. so to speak."

What do these have in common?

A dogmatic conviction in "We Are Right"

Or:

We
Are
Right

Or: "WAR" mantra.

In the end, it all comes down to the evils of blind Dogma.

By whatever name: Christian, Islam, Judaism, Pagan.

Dogma is Dogma.

You cannot destroy an Ideology with an Ideology. This was America's mistake.

It was evident when Bush declared a Crusade.
It was evident when bin Laden declared Jihad.
It was evident when Hitler slaughtered Jews.
It was evident when the English subjugated the Scotts.
It was evident when French took away the head scarves.

There is a great obstacle to overcome when it comes to learning from History: The ability to overcome your own ego. It is evident that despite how often we relive it, we are bound to ignore this lesson and repeat the same mistake humanity has repeated since time immortal.

That mistake: You cannot defeat an Ideology with an Ideology.

I support Dr. Tariq Ramadan's view and his inalienable right to express himself (even when they contradict popular opinion or some unjust US gov't policies like unquestionable support for gov't of Israel).

I truly believe he is being hounded by the Bush administration because there are powerful voices within mainstream conservatism (which was once referred to by its true name: Barry Goldwater extremist) that are unsettled with Dr. Ramadan's unapologetic pro-Palestinian, proud Muslim politicial, social, philosophical, and intellectual views.

There was a great NYTimes Magazine cover story done on Dr. Ramadan and I wish everyone here has a chance to go read or "google it" so they may understand the criticism of his detractors and the views by some expressed in his defense.

Lastly, one quick point the title is a little misleading, "Dialogue with Islam vital to West."
That's the classic mistake made by many who have still some ways to go in understanding the Islamic faith and the Muslim perspective.

Islam is a religion a way of life. It doesn't breathe, sleep, or eat. Whereas a follower of Islam is called a Muslim. "Mu" (from Arabic for one who is) and "slim" (the root form of salaam: submission and peace). Therefore the title would be more aptly stated if it read "dialogue with Muslim vital to West," and not dialogue with Islam.

What surprises me about suicide bombers is their absolute conviction that allah really exists.
Its a robotic conviction suggesting indoctrination.
Before blowing myself up for some god I think I'd like to talk to him first.Personally.One on one.
I mean after all,as far as we know there isn't actually anybody up there. Just ask Woody Allen.
Or Sam Harris.

A dialogue with Islam is vital to the West, you don't say? This weak knee attitude is exactly what gives the Islamo-fascist strength. The problem is not Islam the religion but the people who use religion to further their political agenda. These people got their playbook from their fellow travelers in the West who hate religion and bash Christianity in particular in the same fashion to further their political agenda. No dialogue in the world would change their position because you can not reason with the unreasonable…..it is their way or no way. The left and right divide in the United States is a perfect example.

We have reduced ourselves to hate-mongering.
We have reduced ourselves to name calling.
We have reduced ourselves to chest pounding.
We have reduced ourselves to meaningless Rhetoric.
We have reduced ourselves to dogma as a battering ram.

We have infused others with a cause by our own means.

We have eliminated the virture that was America.

It is America who has already lost.

This is evident in the horrific tit-for-tat presented here.
This is evident by the use of ideology to combat ideology.

It is Dogma that is to fear.

It was Dogma that drove Hitler to slaughter Jews.
It was Dogma that drove the Jews to exile Palestinians.
It was Dogma that flew planes into the WTC.
It was Dogma that decreed the end of Isreal.

It is Dogma that drives suicide bombers.
It is Dogma that gives bin Laden power.

It is Dogma that is being weilded here.

When we can learn that Dogma is the issue, not the name by which we call that dogma (Christian, Jewish, Islamic) then we can proceed to put aside differences and grow.

The problem is, someone has to take that step.

The problem is, no one's Dogma will allow them to just that.

Ideology = Dogma = Threat = Danger

Morals ≠ Ideology
Morals ≠ Christianity
Morals ≠ Judaism
Morals ≠ Islam

Morals = Respect

Ibrahim, we are talking about issues done IN THE NAME OF RELIGION during the CURRENT 100 years

Roy: If you are a muslim please remain in Mexico, or better yet, pay a visit to Guantanamo or one of the secret detention centers.

Mexico more free?! HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!

You'e right about the police not investigating you, theyre too busy running drug rings with the government's blessing to do that.

"Scapegoats of fear", did u pick that statement on Air America? Despite what the NY Times says Im pretty darn happy in this country!

Fear is not a bad tactic when a real threat to your life exists. There is a reason why we mock the example of the ostric's head in the sand

Freedom is word that liberals wave around willy nilly. Freedom and responsibility go hand in hand.

Hi

I am a Fijian born Christian, revereted back to Muslim in 2004. just want 2 share my thought, back 2 square one the Red Indians was terrorist by Christians missinories in early 1600yr n so...i was wondering why this Terrorist Christians Europeans in a not called Christian Terrorist. The same Terrorist happen in the Pacific in Fiji they killed my grandfather n take the land n established they pagan government without natives comments or controlled.

Hitler is a Christian no one called him Christian Terrorist.

The title Christ or Christian is a pagan name of Isa (PBUH). CHRIST TITLE IS PAGAN NAME N WHY DELCARED US OR FIJI 2 BE A CHRISTIAN COUNTRY?
The meaning if Isa is the brighten star so whats the meaning of Christ... in Greek or Roman!?...

Pagan title is not recorded in the book of heaven.

hopefully this will help!

Alexis, let me tell you something, America USED TO BE by far more free than 98% of countries worldwide. I am waiting out your beloved Christian Rovians in Mexico until their time is finished - and by the looks of the scandals and lies now being exposed, that will be soon.

I have more freedom here than the in the US. No one reads my email, monitors my international calls, tells me which countries I can't visit, or puts me on no fly lists for reasons unknown. You and your ignorant lot need to WAKE UP. Your freedoms are eroding in front of your nose in the name of "The war on terror" Muslims are Roves scapegoats of fear like the Jews were Hitler's. Extremists are extremists whether they are Islamic or Christians.

NONSENSE

The MB assasinated the Christian Egyptian Boutros Ghaly (ancestor of the UN SG)

NAsser was almost assasinated by the MB, that is why Banna was executed

Immense popularity of the MB:More nonsense

The MB to this day talks about Egypt's native Coptic Christians as dhimmis and talks about things like jizya poll tax as written in the Quran

As for India, it is a great country, but its not a Muslim country it is mainly Hindu

The people in the Islamic world need to take their freedoms from the Government. Most Islamic countries are dictatorships or theocracies!

Islam should be separatde from State. You can be whatever you want to be. In religion, none is better than the other. They are not even proven true. Maybe all those prophets were just leaders/philosophers. They got right at times, wrong at times.

The west needs to encourage this freedom transformation and disassociate itself from dictators like Mubarak, Saudi King...

Daniel,

Yours is, indeed, an excellent post and I want to provide pieces of an answer. A total answer would involve a long, long discourse.

First, you might or might not be aware: Tariq Ramadans' gradfather was Hassan al Banna; he launched the Muslim Brotherhood the same way Abul Ala Maudoodi in Pakisatn launched the Jamaat-e-Islami. The Muslim Brotherhood was instrumental in mobilising grassroots Egyptian support when Britain, France and Israel broke all manner of international laws by launching a military attack on Egypt after Nasser nationalised the Suez Canal. But, politics being what it is, the immense popularity of Hassan al Banna and underhanded deals between Nasser and the US (which had helped to keeo UK-France-Israel at bay) resulted in his being executed by Nasser.
Ramadan is in the UK helping Blair, but much of his time is also spent in developing countries, whther predominantly Muslim or where Muslims have a significant presence. Not rarely, he is dismissed as being too soft, too westernised. But he is unphazed by attacks from Islamophobic nuts and from ill-informed Muslims.
I myself am in the West only since one year and am doing evrything to go back to my country, one with a Muslim minority of about 17$ of the population. Yes, I have differences with my country's authorities, but hopefully they will be ironed out soon. I had done all my studies to the doctoral level in Canada in the 1970's and then went back to my country to work inspite of very challenging conditions. I am back in Canada only since last year.
The Muslim world is modernising fast, in spite of the fact that Western mega-corporations (for which the politicians are salesmen, just like Gerhard Schroder is accused by US sympathisers as being a salesman for the Russian Gas giant Gazprom) get the Pentagon, in the name of stabilty to reinforce the iron grip of dictators in the Muslim and developing world. Richard Dawkins got it right in January 2003 when he said that America's then-nascent Christian-religious fundamentalism and crackdown on free speech would drive a large proportion of self-respecting scientists and intellectuals to leqave the US for Europe. My compatriots, the Indians, are already going bacl to India in droves. The President of India is a very high-powered Muslim scientist.

But, why? Evolution is not a zero-sum game. We can all gain by encouraging a constructive dialogue. Around the year 1200, Leonardo of Pisa sought to convert the Italian (Florentine) and Western intelligentsia to Arab science and mathematics, in particular by introducing them to Al Khwarizmi's book Kitab-alJabr Wal Muqabila, which developed the arabic numerals and decimal system of counting(at that time the West was still using the Roman numerals), the Algebra (note the Al-Jabnr of Khwarizmi's book). The Florentines sought to resist the heathen influence, but the market forces overcame even the most obscurantist resistance.
As for warfare and the comparative imperialist experiences, I invite you to read the very recent book authored by Peter Turchin of the University of Connecticut, where he is Professor of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology and Adjunst Professor in the Department of Mathematics. He uses the new science of Clio dynamics to study the life cycle of imperial nations. Al though I myself am not fully convinced by his argument, he sets out to demonstrate that Islam is today the fastest-growing religion in the world and has been for a long time because its system of belief and governance best articulates the (David Sloan) Wilsonian process of meme evolution -- that is intra-group competition to enable the mergence of the fittest group that cooperates with other groups to form a nation from which inter-nation competition causes an optimal international order to emerge.

Dear Mohammed:

Sooner or later you will get what you so rightly deserve. Also, I am not a Serb. You have many enemies.

This further substantiates the lack of free press and free speech in America. I recently learned the English speaking broadcast of Al Jazeera has been censored in the US. Why is our government and big business censoring us? Aren't we as Americans entitled to hear a variety of perspectives on the issues that affect our policies? What information is so dangerous that they would take away our constitutional rights? What this administration doesn't seem to realize, that our founders realized over 200 years ago, is that these freedoms make us stronger not weaker.

This further substantiates the lack of free press and free speech in America. I recently learned the English speaking broadcast of Al Jazeera has been censored in the US. Why is our government and big business censoring us? Aren't we as Americans entitled to hear a variety of perspectives on the issues that affect our policies? What information is so dangerous that they would take away our constitutional rights? What this administration doesn't seem to realize, that our founders realized over 200 years ago, is that these freedoms make us stronger not weaker.

hey Steve

issues 1-4 were not done in the name of Judaism or Christianity

as for issue 5 its pretty broad and when done in the name of Christainity (Pizarro, Cortez etc) was hundreds of years ago

And by the way, most Christians in the world are not white

Anything else appeaser?

hey Steve

issues 1-4 were not done in the name of Judaism or Christianity

as for issue 4 its pretty broad and for the most part took part 100 years ago and the nations involved regretted those actions

Anything else appeaser?

about the earlier comments against the Serbs, you try living in your own country and see how most of the Muslims want to take the land that your great great grandfather fought the Muslim Turks invasion and converted the weak cristians and now want to steal that land. what would you do sit around and let them rape and pillage women and children. so why dont we let the Mexicans in this country to declare Texas and California independend of the union and see what the US goverment would do.

Hey Alexis,

Muslims didn't:

1. Fund the Contras in Nicaragua

2. Drop atomic warheads on two Japanese cities

3. Overthrow democratically elected leaders in Iran and Chile

4. Blow up the Federal Building in Oklahoma City

5. Pillage and plunder Asia, Africa and the Americas

So why should the world trust white Christians?

How interesting and enlightening to read all of the "terrorist appeasers" excuses for allowing one "Tariq Ramadan", a devoted anti-semite, a spokesman for the beheading crowd of jackals and a dedicated disciple of anti-free anything other than his own Islamist "views". How many literal heads need to roll onto the doorsteps of these simply "ostrich"-ite excuse makers and appeasers before they acknowledge the failure of the uncivilized spewing of the Ramadan, assuming that is his real name? I suppose Chamberlain is a perfect example, all the way to the grave, so to speak for this cabal of self-righteous lemmings.

Pathetic and ignorant of facts they are!!

hey Andy,

Judeo-Christians didnt:

1. Slam planes into WTC and kill 3000 people

then

2. Deny in their own countries that they did it but claim that the Jews did it

then

3. Start blowing their own people left and right in Iraq while decrying America

then

4. Take advantage of Saddam's removal and blow up churches

then

5. Massacre thousands of Christians in Darfur in the span of a few years while the Arab World turns a blind eye and complains about Palestinians

Judeo-Christians can sit down and talk over their disagreements.

If we express emotion in this forum it is because we are tired of being on the defensive. The hole in downtown NYC made us lose our patience.

Campbell,

I don't know about the author, but I am a Muslim and I love, love love women; although when, in the 1970's, I was an undergrad (in particular a math, game theory and econometrics wizard) the very nice girls were always insulting me whther I am a fag, whther something was wrong with me that i did not, as they said, make a pass at them. My religion forbid me to. There are times when I regret not having taken advantage of the good times and made some women happy, but most of the time I tell muself that I could also have made them unhappy if either they could not reciprocate any emotional attachment that may result from my 'enjoying myself' or I could not reciprocate any emotional attachment they may develop.

Gays? I have enormous respect for Alan Turing, Wittgenstein, and, as an Economist and a precocious homosexual, John Maynard Keynes, but I have mixed feelings about Oscar Wilde, Rock Hudson, etc. but I respect their rights.

Alexis,

You ask when is it OK for a Muslim to take the life of someone for insulting Islam?

Never!

Why never?

We do worse: we ignore him.

And sometimes they come around to see reason.

Example?

Francis Fukuyama. Salman Rushdie.

Both are now backtracking on what a couple of years or so ago they called Islamofascism.

I am American.
I am proud of that.

My parents were not.
I am proud of that.

I am a typical "white male"
I don't care about that.

I am not Islamic.
I am not Christian.
I am not Jewish
I am not Atheist.
I am the only one who cares what I am.
I am proud of that.

I am eager to learn.
I am eager to hear the thoughts and opinions of others.

I am not gay, I don't care if you are.
I am not afraid of people who are different.
I am proud of the diverse cultures who make up America (after all, America has no culture of it's own, it's all borrowed!!)

I am saddened to read that the only hate-full things written here are written by Americans.

I am saddened to read that the only hate written here is written by Judeo-Christians.

I am not proud of that as an America.
I am embarrassed by it.

Anyone else proud of that?

Do you know how many ex Muslims I know who converted to Christianity and lie in fear of execution in Muslim countries??? Do you even care??

Asim,

Thanks very much for the advice. Truth always prevails, no matter what.

What if you met Abdur Rahman, the Afghan who was about to be executed for converting to Christianity but escaped because he was declared insane! (Of course the logic is only insane people would voluntarily leave the religion)

Dr Karadzic,

Well since you say Islam must be destroyed, I assume that you are ready to do it.

I am waiting for you.

As every WAPO reader can see, my exact addres is right there for all to see.

I cannot say the same for you.

But yes, I am waiting for you. At the given address.

Sorry I don't know how to say Peace Be On You in the Serbian language. But you will note that a Serb court today sent 4 Serbs to prison for killing Muslims.

Hatem,

You ask: "If i met somebody etc.'

What would I do?

But, my friend, I just met one -- You.

What did I do? Call you my friend. Answer your questions. Assume you are as honest as I am. Answer your hypothetical questions however mischievous they are.

What do I do if he still does not understand?

I'll just ignore him1

If he gets mad and insults me?

I'll walk away.

If he gets more vicious and insults my sister as one Italian footballer did to Zinedine Zidane?

Headbutt him in the stomach.

If the racists then succumb to their basest instincts?

Play even better football and wait until thay all come around to say that they love me now more than before because I am human.

Have I answered your question?

Most you make no sense and, frankly, the ignorance is this country is clearly visible on this board.

I feel sorry for most of these so called commentators who have never set foot outside the US...I am not a muslim but I was raised in a country with many muslims and I daresay they are mainly peaceful people...most of their actions are reactions to other acts...i.e the invasion of Iraq..the Palestine issues...I am amused when American talking heads say "they hate us for our freedom'....Most people love Americans it is the government they hate...If America is a true land of free speech let everybody be heard...but I have to admit the media in America may be part of a conspiracy to surpress the truth or it is populated by opinionated, ignorant propagandists like Bill O Reilly...I wish you luck in your 'analysis'....the kind of jaundiced views that convinced you there were weapons of mass destruction in IRAQ and only an invasion with thousands dead could convince you otherwise.

Charley:

"When Islamic States renounce terrorism, cease invading their neighbors, and adopt a live and let live policy, I for one will be more willing to listen...Some people are good and some are evil. No one is saying that America is perfect... "

Why is it wrong for Islamic States to invade their neighbors, but not for the US? If we've invaded Iraq, ignited a civil war there, and facilitated Al Qaeda's foothold there, are we now evil?
I also think this debate would benefit from a little integrity; to Christian Conservatives who believe we need to invade other countries to "teach them democracy," please refrain from critizing radical Islam's drive to force their world view on others, please refrain from citing gay rights as the motive for your anti-Islan rants

So anyone who doesn't want Tariq Ramadan anywhere near the United States or being elevated for anything more than he is now is an Israeli agent - well what an original thought; does it matter who is a jew or non-Jew in this universal fight against Islamic Fascism by the West. If the intellectuals among you would take a half second of your elevated brain power and to do a little research on just who Tariq Ramadan actually is - the grandson of the founder of the Muslim Britherhood - and the son of a Jihadist - you might alter your opinion of Tariq and who he is and what his objectives are no matter how elegantly and reasonably he states them and no matter what BS he hands out about the universality of the Muslim faith and the need to live in an open, diverse and harmonious culture. Goebbels was an eloquent and alarmingly reasonable man if you bought into his racist ideology and warped sense of history and also taught his disciples - among them the Muslim Brotherhood - about the BIG LIE. Wake up! What's at stake hre is not some abstract issue of academic freedom and free speach but the sinister ideology of a religion that has morphed into a political/military movement and is hell bent on establishing a Moslem empire from the Hindu Kush through Iran and onto the Middle east, North Africa and Southern Europe including,and foremost, the nation of Spain. Read a little about this before you pick up the cudgel on behalf of Tariq Ramadan and begin accusing others of being reigious nuts, Israeli agents or Bigots. We have a very reasonable point of view and have hard facts on our side. Tariq Ramadan is Royalty among the Muslim Brotherhood.

ISLAM AND THE WAY OF LIFE IN THE WEST DO NOT MATCH SO UNLESS THEY ARE WILLING TO CHANGE THEIR LAWS AND ALLLOW WOMEN TO DRIVE AND WORK AND VOTE AND WALK NEXT TO MEN THEN THERE IS NOTHING TO TALK ABOUT.

I see value in listening to Ramadan--but not much.

If his criticisms center on Israeli abuses, then the columnist sounds reaasonable. If his criticism is to continue the "Isreal Must Be Destroyed" line, then what good is he?

The Just War tradition is founded on securing peace through justice. Imagine if Israel were to leave the West Bank, like the time I was there in 1992 when it was peaceful. I was doing peace keeping duties in Egypt and traveled from Eilat to the Lebanese border. (Of course, being at peace did not keep me and my comrades from being run out of the Temle Mount by angry Muslims. Talk did not do much good that day.)

Since 2000, MULTIPLE attempts had been made to subvert Israel and her policies thru terrorism--until the wall was built. Now imagine living next door to a serial pedophile--with your several beautiful daughters.

In this analogy, many folks in the blog would surely say, well, if the daughters were there, you'd have not reason to fear the pedophile will strike again--at you and yours. Currently, I have an irascible neighbor, but I don't cross his property line and endanger his goods. I respect his life and good, even if he is a jerk. But that takes an action--not words. Can we say the same for the Palestinan leadership? History suggests not.

All of the talk and introspection will not cure several problems with many of the voices above. Talk is not action. Talk without reform will not change militant Islam in the Arab world, although we must say we don't see these problems in other parts of the Muslim world.

Since Islam has no hierarchy, where would we start reform? As Iraq suggests, all one mullah has to do is start reform--until another mullah or another self-syled religious leader has him killed.

Talk should be used to arrive at decisions. All of the decisions mentioned above have been talked through. The decision is not seek justice but destruction. Ramadan may not be a bad guy as one has noted above. Then my hats off to him. I wonder how long he would last he if were doing his talking in an Arab country, and not Britain.

Finally, the one question ignored in many of these blogs is this. The Palestinian leadership has failed its people time and again for nearly 60 years. Sixty years of backing Hitler, Nasser, and Saddam Hussein. Their definition of victory is not justice but the elimination of Israel. How will that be done?

When I was a kid in 1967, Nasser threatened the extinction of the Israeils. If that's the case, then this is not a moral issue--because the Palestinians and Arabs seem to want ignore ethics--and remains a purely logistical issue of ridding the land of interlopers who have been then almost a century. If the bloggers are for supporting the elimination --as in the forcible destruction of a country and its people--then they should say so. Those who do, pls email me simply to congratulate you on intellectual honesty.

I think the idea of talking is fine. But all of the protests that we Americans make, that we try to achieve justice, we may not do much but we try, or that we are good-hearted but incompetent mean little to many of the folks above. The bloggers forget "talk," in the old Soviets days of disinformation, was a cover for talking one out of his own belief systems. How stupid we can get.

In the end, since the Oslo Accords meant to create peace with the Palestinians, no Arab state has come on line to craft a lasting peace. Lots of talk. No action.

Next time we have an idealistic columnist, maybe he will discuss the full range of issues in moral and real political terms. It's too easy to wail about how bad we are. I am from NYC. There's a hole in Manhattan--that would have been followed by other large holes--because the people we need to wondering about don't talk, They act!

So listen to the talkers, but let's not give all credit to someone simply because he has a soap box. Let's listen to people who will create real change to achieve justice. Otherwise, too much talk will lead to more blights on the landscape.

BTW: Maybe the Patriot Act is a challenge for us. Let's hope the guy who must want lesser protections does not really want more planes and buildings--and people-can be blown up. London 2005 and 2006 ring a bell? And this administration may not have achieved success in the Middle East yet, but which administration has? Eight years of kind talk under Clinton brought us Khobar Towers, USS Cole, and 9/11. Until we change the policy towards Israel, we will be in conflict with Arabs who can only see justice in Biblical terms of destroying one people to raise another up. So let's say that if that's what's really at stake.

If we were really smart, we'd be talking to the Palestinians to find a better way. But that too would require tak of justice,peace and moderation. When that kind of Arab speaker comes along, have him email me. Just don't take too long. I only have another 25 years to wait.

Monotheists religions are not budhist-like religions.
the old testament is very bloody, just read deuteronomy; thank God Jesus came and the new testament balances it.
About changing religion: in the bible and the torah, is too written the death penalty for worshiping other gods. again; read deuteronomy.
Moses killed many with the lord's blessing when he came down. so cut the crap about how a religion can allow this.
It was Jesus who said those free from sin throw the first rock. but that din't stop the catholic murder with the pope's blessing of 20,000 unarmed huguenot civilians in france.
The duke of Alba murdered many dutch families just for being calvinist. again, he was doing god's will.

Most european wars where games, played by the kings. so how could this happen??

The western advance is in spite of chistianity, not becuase of it. religious encroachment in public life has never bought advancements, but restrictions.

Why do liberals want to tolerate Muslim hate? Don't they realize the extremist Muslims are salivating at the thought of exterminating all the gays? All the women will be covered from head to toe in a wool blanket. Don't show any ankle, you will be whipped (I think only 30 times in Saudi Arabia). Don't covert from Islam to anything else, you will be executed in Afghanistan. Need I say more? Liberals will be the first to go in the drive to convert the whole world to Islam.

Good post Daniel.

So-called bridging Muslim thinkers have a swell time discussing the religion of peace to the West, but we never seem to get a peep out of them to criticize and condemn their brethren at home who preach violence and dhimmitude.

Unfortunately my faith in Islam/West dialogues has diminished. I keep hearing how the West should allow Islamic people into the West to create bridges, to create dialogues betweeen faiths, but we see none of this occurring at all in the Islamic world to the degree we see in the West. In fact if people like Mr. Ramadan want to make a difference, they should be operating on their own soil among their own people with all the danger in that. That would be proof of difference. But no, instead they must be allowed into the West where there is no danger in speaking one's mind to convince us to tolerate Muslims. That a Muslim can speak in the West is proof of superior toleration. That Mr. Ramadan or the woman (Hirsi I believe her name is) or Mr. Rushdie are in danger of speaking their minds in the Islamic world (not to mention the danger to Christians, Jews, atheists) is proof that if free speaking must be taken place, that if bridges must be crossed, they must be crossed in the Islamic world.

I just have little faith in the Islamic world now. Recently an Islamic woman gave me a site of Islamic scientists largely from the golden years of Islam in an attempt to get me to see Islam is quite compatible with science. In fact if the site is accurate the Islamic scientists of the golden years are so profound that we can speak of the scientific revolution having occurred in the Islamic world. But what the woman did not understand is that brings the question of Islam's relationship to science into question all the more. It makes us ask why all those Islamic scientists never really had an effect--except insofar as their accomplishments became known in the West. It would have been a better defense of Islam to not have mentioned scientists at all, that way we can hope for a reconciliation of science with Islam in the future. But by bringing up so many Islamic scientists--so many that we can even speak of the scientific revolution having occurred there--we are left asking seriously why after the golden age of Islam science collapsed and why the West had a scientific revolution and took off to the present day. Why science collapsed in the Islamic world is an open question. It has been attributed to invasions (Mongols, etc.--not Western Crusaders) and Islam itself. Actually an interesting speculation is that various invasions made the Islamic peoples more conservative and Islamic and this killed science--a different situation than today where we would dearly like the Islamic peoples to become more scientific and democratic...

I just have little faith in Islam/West dialogues. What exactly is it the West should be learning from Islamic peoples? We know about the music, the food, the architecture, etc. We reject the religion and the politics--and this is what we are supposed to dialogue about! There is no dialogue. Westerners know full well there will be no abandonment of democracy and science, so...

And lastly, we all know this now. It makes little difference if this scholar or that speaks out. We know the essential parameters of the argument. The West will not change (except insofar as more science and democracy). Russia is moving in the same direction as the West (although more slowly). The Chinese are also embracing science and are even considered atheistic if we take communism seriously...I see no choice but for Islam to modernize and in fact weaken in the face of science and democracy. If the Islamic world resists this then there will be conflict.

Final word: once again I feel proof of the good will of people such as Ramadan can only come by these people engaging their own people--not by coming and teaching in the West. In the West democracy and science have become so successful we can listen to even the most absurd ideas. That is in stark contrast to the Islamic world, which revolves around Islam, questions of Israel, the great satan U.S., etc. If Ramadan wants to show bravery and good will and he can go back to the Islamic world.

KJ: Last time I checked, it was Muslim extremists that flew two planes into the WTC. Maybe that's why we are a little pissed at the Muslims. I think everyone should read the book "Jefferson's War" to get a good example of how to deal with Muslim extremists.

Typical,

The author obviously hates the Bush Administration more than they like Women, Gay men, and the absense of Sharia law. So Much so that they are willing to distort the posistions of somebody. The stated reason for keeping him out of the country was that he sent huge amounts of money to a front for an organization that carried out terrorist attacks. End of story.

At least be honest and admit you care nothing for womens rights, for gays etc... if you are going to support this person, don't try to avoid the stated reasons for his VISA being denied and claim it is because of disagreement with our government.

KJ wrote:

"Perhaps it is time for the Western World to also promote the "tolerance" that they so much want to see the Middle East promote."

If we do, we will get killed. Simple enough for you?

AJ: I am not interested in tolerance nor in demanding anyhting from muslims. I am only interested in persecuting muslims; destroying their slave cult; and erasing any trace of their existence in this country.

It perplexes me when I hear or read someone denouncing "Islamic Terrorism" and not plain "Terrorism". Does it mean they support some other kind of terrorism, like terrorism in support of their own Ideology, Movement or possibly Religion.

"Dr. Karadzic:

Mohammed:

Thank you for your frankness. Islam must be destroyed and muslims liquidated en masse.

Posted April 10, 2007 3:31 PM"

I find it astonishing that non-Muslims are so demanding that moderate Muslims denounce hate, violence and terror, yet, those very individuals say nothing when people such as Dr. Karadzic promote hate against Muslims.

I see just as much hatred against the Middle East and Muslims as I see vice versa. Perhaps it is time for the Western World to also promote the "tolerance" that they so much want to see the Middle East promote.

Actually Hatem has a point.

When is it OK in the eyes of moderate Muslims to take the life of someone for insulting Islam?? I want to know!

Alexis and Martin have it right. I find it pretty amazing that the left in this country is so ready to open the flood gates to Islam. There are plenty of learned Muslims already here without bringing more, especially one of dubious intent. I think we can carry on a dialogue just fine with Mr. Ramadan at a distance. When Islamic States renounce terrorism, cease invading their neighbors, and adopt a live and let live policy, I for one will be more willing to listen. When Sudan ends it's support for the continued massacre of its' Christian population, when Muslim extremists end their attacks on the churches and Bhuddist temples of Thailand, when Muslim extremists cease tossing hand grenades into churches in Pakistan, when Muslim extremists stop kidnapping people for ransom/ killing-fetishes in the Phillipines, when Iranian/Syrian-backed Muslim extremists cease murdering Lebanese politicians, and last, but not by far the least, when Muslim extremists stop flying planes into our buildings, then, and only then, will I be willing to talk about peacful coexistence, tolerence and understanding. Of the world's 1 billion or so Muslims, if only 10-15% are extremists, that still leaves us with 100-150 million extremists. Wake up liberals. You have let the soft side of freedom trick you into believing everyone wants to hug you. Face the fact that the world is not gray. Some people are good and some are evil. No one is saying that America is perfect, but it does afford it's citizens the following: Freedom of speech; freedom to peacably assemble, freedom to defend yourself, offers you an opportunity to rise above your station based upon your merits, allows you to worship as you please without fear of retribution. Okay, enough ranting.

Mohamed Malleck,
Please don not waste your time on the Usual distractors that hijack this form at every turn-you will get nowhere with their polemics and lies. Muslims should limit their dialogue to the sincere and the decent who really want to dialogue for the purpose of making our a world a better and harmonious world.The LOG in the eyes of those distractors is so huge that they don't see any thing.

Mohammed:

Thank you for your frankness. Islam must be destroyed and muslims liquidated en masse.

so just to be clear Mohamed:

If u meet a former Muslim and he is verbally complaining left and right about Islam and all its perceived flaws, and frankly he's using very insulting terms...what, specifically, would you do?

You keep saying "so help me God" so please give us an honest answer, before this forum and before God.

Asim:

So if we are pointing out the great things about islam, that is ok. If we are pointing out how it is practiced in the ME, that is bashing?

Hatem,

I'll assume that you are as honest as I am and as you seem to value others to be; so I take it that you MIGHT (or might not!) be a Muslim (but does that really matter for the dialogue?)

You do yourself a disservice by misquoting me. All the readers of WAPO will have noticed that you took a small part of a sentence, construe it to mean what your prejudice predisposed you to beleive, and make your conclusion. Other readrrs have come to their own conclusion.

My posting explained arrogance -- that is demean others' good faith, ridicule them, trample on their rights, etc. in the supremely arrogant belief that their reasoning ability is superior to others and they are too intelligent to beleive in God and in morality.

Yes it is an Islamic duty to defend oneself against the likes of you, whther you MIGHT be Muslim or not.

So help me God!

The topic is West/Islam dialogue and NOT Islam Bashing. Polemics will lead no where.Let us stick to the subject and stop distracting from the topic.

Last paragraph got cut off:

It was further ruled that

[T]he Court considers that sharia, which faithfully reflects the dogmas and divine rules laid down by religion, is stable and invariable. Principles such as pluralism in the political sphere or the constant evolution of public freedoms have no place in it. […] It is difficult to declare one’s respect for democracy and human rights while at the same time supporting a regime based on sharia, which clearly diverges from Convention values, particularly with regard to its criminal law and criminal procedure, its rules on the legal status of women and the way it intervenes in all spheres of private and public life in accordance with religious precepts.

Mohamed Malleck: I respect the version of the Muslim religion you are describing. But it seems that version is practiced among a minority, especially in the Middle East.

So while that is what being Muslim means to you, it seems to mean something far more radical to most Muslims.

Examples of Sharia law implemented in many/most muslim countries:

-----------

Apostates:
In most interpretations of Sharia, conversion by Muslims to other religions, is strictly forbidden and is termed apostasy. Muslim theology equates apostasy to treason, and in most interpretations of sharia, the penalty for apostasy is death.

In many Muslim countries, the accusation of apostasy is even used against non-conventional interpretations of the Quran. The severe persecution of the famous expert in Arabic literature, Prof. Nasr Hamid Abu Zayd, is an example of this.

Other Hadd offences:
* Wine-drinking and, by extension, alcohol-drinking, punishable by flogging

* Unlawful sexual intercourse, punishable by flogging for unmarried offenders and stoning to death for adulterers

* Theft, punishable by the amputation of a hand or foot

freedom of speech:
Sharia does not allow freedom of speech on such matters as criticism of Muhammad. Such criticism is considered blasphemy against Muhammad.

Democracy:
Did you know that in some places Sharia law is considered to be incompatible with democracy.

In 1998 the Turkish Constitutional Court banned and dissolved Turkey's Refah Party on the grounds that the "rules of sharia", which Refah sought to introduce, "were incompatible with the democratic regime," stating that "Democracy is the antithesis of sharia." On appeal by Refah the European Court of Human Rights determined that "sharia is incompatible with the fundamental principles of democracy"

Refah's sharia based notion of a "plurality of legal systems, grounded on religion" was ruled to contravene the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms. It was determined that it would "do away with the State's role as the guarantor of individual rights and freedoms" and "infringe the principle of non-discrimination between individuals as regards their enjoyment of public freedoms, which is one of the fundamental principles of democracy". It was further ruled that

Claiming Ramadan contributed to a charity with links to Hamas is no grounds for banning him. He contributed to a charity, and there is no evidence he sent any of it to any terrorist organization. The feds did the same thing to railroad Sami al-Arian. If Ramadan was Jewish and contributed to the Israeli Gush Eminim or Kahane Kach terrorist organizations, he would have no trouble getting a US visa. We allow people to buy Israel bonds even though the money supports terrorism because Israel uses state terror as instrument of official policy. We even give them a tax break! Ramadan, like al-Arian, is just on the wrong side of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. The Israel Lobby does not want Muslims like Ramadan to come here. They want the US public to continue believing Islam supports terrorism. Hopefully, the rest of the world will ban supporters of Israel from entering their nations. Israel and its supports deserve this.

I commend and am proud of my alma matter, Georgetown University, to allow the Americam people to hear a voice of reason, moderation, and enlightened dialogue of the Islamic scholar Tariq Ramadan. Bush's ban on the entry of Ramadan-a very
un-American form of intellectual censorship and indeeed a shameful behavior-reminds me of the Inquisition in the medieval ages and more recently of McCarthyism.

Ramadan’s constructive advocacy of integrating Muslims in the west into their new societies, his rational and moderate posture, are exactly why he was not allowed entry to the US:it does not serve the Bush politics of fear to have an enlightened Islamic voice to be heard-it rather have the exceptional radical few extremists paraded American TV screens to support his disastrous "war on terrorism."

Thanks to GU and to modern technology that we are able to hear Professor Ramadan.

The link in the column is incorrect. The correct link to the Berkley Center is http://berkleycenter.georgetown.edu/

Bush is a fundamentalist who believes that he knows right from wrong. He bans Tariq Ramadan from entry into the US on ideological grounds and offers no substantial support for this position. This is the kind of capricious and arbitary behaviour that democracies cannot permit. It is the same with detainees in Guantanamo Bay. There is a presumption that they are guilty. The idea of penalising people that are suspected by paranoiacs is dangerous and unfair to them and to the society that Bush claims he is protecting. Bush is a dangerous fool.

The author sounds rather naive regarding the explicitly stated aims of Islam: To replace western democratic (and all other politico-religious) foundations with Sharia (Islamic Law).
This means, if you did not know: arranged marriages, polygamy, dismemberment for robbery,
decapitation for various offenses, including being a journalist or whatever in many countries. The suppression of women and children to the male members who, themselves, are repressed under a regime that devalues life (any life) for the delusional afterlife.
If you think the West has anything to learn from people who suicide bomb schools and universities with children in them; markets with people peacefully shopping; solderis who dislodged the tyrant who waged genocide against them, then maybe you have, but freedom-loving people do not.
Because Ramadan claims to oppose terrorism does not mean he does. Because Tony Blair allowed him to function in England means nothing regarding his honesty. The British government is infamous for appeasing terrorists on its own soil. How do you think the July 7th bombings massacred all those people on the train in London. And, why do you think they were able to get away with it?
The question may really be: Why do you want to listen to someone who hates America? Though far from perfect, America is the freest, most democratic and law-abiding country on the planet.

Mohamed wrote:

"Now, I can see you protesting: What about apostasy? Yes, the Quran has severe punishment for apostasy, which, as understood in Islam means, not just changing one's religion as a result of arrogance from so-called rationality or for the sake of material advancement, but changing one's religion and then vilifying it and its followers and giving vent to hatred against former co-religionsit Muslims. Thta apostasy is severely punished.
I say it as it is. So help me God!"

Thank you Mohamed for your honesty and being the first to admit that if someone leaves islam as a result of arrogance he should be severley punished. I wish more Muslims would be as honest as you.

There is a perception in this country that those who disagree with Israeli policy are terrorists or anti-semites, and that is just not the case. If I was paranoid, I would think that the Israeli lobbies in this country conspired to prevent him from entering. Tariq Ramadan is a moderate voice that would have been an asset to Notre Dame and to enhancing our ability to reach out to Islam. When did it become 'a crime' to disagree in the US? Isn't that what democracy is all about? And when did it become a crime to make a charitable donation?

Gerald, Hatem,

First, Gerald.

You want the institutions and people that are in favour of dialogue to push Tariq Ramadan to publicly renounce Islamic terrorism and unconditionally accept tolerance and equality of all faiths and peoples, including Jews and Christians.
Well, my friend, Tariq Ramadan and about 99.9% of all Muslims are duty-bound, by their religion, to do the second part of your wish. The Holy Quran emphasizes in more than one place that EVERY people throughout humanity's existence on this earth, has received God's message and the true Muslim believes in all of them. No doubt, Muslims also believe (because the statement is part of the last sermon of the Prophet of Islam) that the message of God was perfected with the revelation to Muhammad, peace be upon him. They do believe
(as most scholars also do that, unfortunately, earlier messages have been changed by believers of weak faith, sometimes in a way that elicits Islamic disapproval). To be a good Muslim, in consequence, I have to be a good follower of the Jewish faith; I have to be a good Christian, a good Hindu, a good Buddhist, even a good agnostic but not a polytheist idolater.
About renouncing terrorism, how can we renounce what we totally disapprove of in the first place? But yes, if you define as terrorism the kind of language I am holding here, if you define as terrorism my protest against the invasion of Iraq, against the 1980 leveraging, by the US and UK of Saddam's Iraq to launch an 8-year war against an Iranian nation that was just emerging from a revolution that had been won just by millions of people going to their rooftops in all the Iranian cities, towns and villages that had been covered in an ominous darkeness by the Shah's blackout and chanting Allahu-Akbar, then yes, I am a terrorist and am proud to be one. I don't know if Tariq Ramadan feels the same way as I do.
Yet one more point for Gerald : it is the Pope John Paul who, during his visit to India as well as on other occasions has repeatedly said that while he respects other religions, Christianity is superior to all other religions. In Islam it is not like that. The closing verses of the Chapter Al-Baqara (The Cow) enjoins Muslims to say: I believe in God, in the angels, in the books of revelations, in the various prophets. I don't believe that there is any one prophet higher than all others. (Muhammad p.b.u.h. is the last prophet, not the greatest prophet).

Now, to Hatem,

A Muslim who wants to chage his religion is free to do so. There is no compulsion in religion, the Quran repeatedly says. Unto you your religion; unto me mine. The verse is repeated twice in the Surah (Chapter) Al-Kaafiroon (the non-believers). It is the ONLY suarh in which a verse is repeated twice.
Now, I can see you protesting: What about apostasy? Yes, the Quran has severe punishment for apostasy, which, as understood in Islam means, not just changing one's religion as a result of arrogance from so-called rationality or for the sake of material advancement, but changing one's religion and then vilifying it and its followers and giving vent to hatred against former co-religionsit Muslims. Thta apostasy is severely punished.
I say it as it is. So help me God!

Tariq Ramadan is a known sympathizer with radical Islamic terror and an advocate of Sharia in the UK and elsewhere. Ramadan's objective is not a multi-cultural society. It is, simply put, to place Sharia above all else in whatever way necessary. It is as foolish to talk to him and expect results as it is to speak with any other Islamic fascist. The degradation of women, the oppression of gay men and women, the harassment and murder of Christians and Jews and the use of terrror to achieve objectives is the hallmark of Islamic methodology. Hitler and Stalin had equally adept propagandists working among the elites in Europe and the United States, and it looks like those same intellectual fellow travelers who took up the cause of fascism and communism are merely searching for new masters to follow. Ramadan appears ready to provide plenty of advice as to where to find them.

"the Rovian/Orwellian police state in which we call America"

Wow, someone seriously has a tendency to exaggerrate.

Let me tell you something, America today is by far more free than 98% of countries worldwide. Freedom comes with responsibility, accept that. Who do you think is the gold standard? Europe? You cannot talk about anything counter to politically correctness without facing possible censure. The Middle East? Haha!! South America? I dont think so. Africa? HAaa! China? Double Ha! So yes, maybe Australia is a better example...yawn.

"The Christian extremists Cheney/Bush are enemies of freedom sometime more than those they lable Islamic extremists."

Wow, your priorities are interesting. Personally, Im more afraid of sipping coffee in the office as a suicide bomber takes the building out rather than an annoying (but probably necessary) extra security measure will be in place in the airport. And Im more concerned about mosques in the US preaching its OK to treat infidels as dhimmis than evangelicals getting federal dollars to get criminals on a better road in society even if they're a little preachy about crazy notions like "love thy neighbor"

WAKE UP.

Bush and Company have played the bloody shirt for all it's worth, but it's not working much anymore. We see in the recent Department of Justice fiasco how the religious extremists have infiltrated the operation of our government at both the lowest and the highest level.
But I have hope that the citizens in my country have "seen the light" regarding this man and his kind, and further that all his efforts to establish a permanent political theocracy will be fully refuted in the coming elections.

Can this kind of thing happen in Islam I wonder? Is it possible for the muslim citizens of the world to live under governments where the theocratic tyrants can be peaceably removed?

I don't believe our (American) theocratic tyrant wannabes are going to last much longer, we know what evil they are capable of committing against us. I wonder if this can happen elsewhere, will the people want it?

Unfortunately in the Rovian/Orwellian police state in which we call America, anyone can be forbidden to fly less alone enter the US. Only the government knows and they don't have to tell anyone why. As a US citizen, I'm not free to fly to Cuba like the rest of the people in the world. So much for the "Land of the Free" The Christian extremists Cheney/Bush are enemies of freedom sometime more than those they lable Islamic extremists.

Thank G-d that Great Britain is more enlightened about dissenting voices in its midst. Ironic as WE are the ones that put the right of free speech into our Bill of Rights.

As the previous poster indicates, we are not precluded from listening to other voices located across the Atlantic thanks to electronics and cyberspace.

It is good to see that the Patriot Act hasn't completely forbidden us to think. And thank God for technology that allows discussion across borders.

I hope that in the conversation, a discussion is brought up with regard to the distinction between West and Islam. I mean by this that the conversation is always defined as West and Islam as though Islam had its own place on the compass.

An interesting observation is that before 9/11, the Muslim world was indeed fractious but since Bush has attacked Muslims, it has forced the Islamic world to examine iself. And forced, the Islamic world to look to itself for help. One sees this with the dramatic increase in Islamic finance.

A question for Mr. Ramadan is " are looking at the begining of an Islamic renaiisance or are we seeing a degeneration into sectarian conflict.

The beauty of the incredibly wired world we now live in is that we can easily access his ideas even without bringing him within our borders. Set up lectures via video-conference, set up online discussion sessions, get his works published here and elsewhere, on and offline.

Nothing about his inability to enter the country prevents us from hearing his message, even though it is probably wrong and certainly inconveniences us. I suspect he could even teach an entire class online in that fashion and be a tremendous asset to any university.

If the government wants to reduce our access to ideas, we've got to start being more creative in how we circumvent that. Eventually the best ideas will win out, so long as we keep ensuring that they are heard.

The day we start keeping people out of this country because we are scared of their ideas or voice, is the day America has lost it's soul. If the ideas are bogus, the American populace will determine them to be so, if they have merit, the America populace will realize that too. To close down the ability to even LISTEN to someone else's ideas is anathema to what this country is about, but seems to come so easily to our administration.

Curious,

what are muslim poster's thoughts on Muslims who convert to another religion?

i wasnt aware that the united states was in the habit of excluding political voices that disagree with her policies in the middle east.
a full 2/3 of the people in america could be forcefully challenged if that is the criteria.

as the author stated, excluding intelligent and reasonable voices only plays nto the hands of the extremists in america with a warped view of islam- who are the ones that need to know the truth about it most.

all we have now are fear mongers.

Gerald:

Where are you getting these views that you're ascribing to Tariq Ramadan? He has plainly denounced terrorism.

Just because Tariq Ramadan disagrees with US policy, doesn't make him right. It only means that his views are contrary to those of our government. Have you considered the possibility that Tariq Ramadan does indeed support the goals and methods of Islamic terrorists who murder innocent men, women and children of the West? Maybe you do want to hear his views in the hope that he will promote a true dialogue with the West, but are you ready, willing and able to challenge Tariq Ramadan on them...to push him to publically renounce Islamic terrorism and to fully accept unconditional tolerance and equality of all faiths and peoples including those of Jews and Christians? This pre-condition is absolutely necessary if there is truly to be peace and accommodation between the Islamic world and the West. If you are not willing to forcefully challenge the speaker, then he will only view you as "useful idiots" as the Soviets viewed so many in the West who unwittingly aided and abetted their inhumane regime and its goals.