Still, whether or not that particular bit was satire or not, I have to say I'm just overwhelmed by the arguments of those who claim sexism isn't a going issue in the modern Christian world.

I thought I knew, but, I can see I was just so underinformed.

" dionysis:

Why don"t you women just focus on bearing children and going to the mall. This stuff is over your head. Go make me a sandwich."

OK, you're a sandwich.

Stand still. :)

(Either read up on your mythology or thanks for the alley-oop. :) Blessed be.) :)

Why don"t you women just focus on bearing children and going to the mall. This stuff is over your head. Go make me a sandwich.

Anyway, not to ramble too much, but really, how many of these notions of what's 'Feminine' do you suppose, are actually *class cues?*

"“I don’t know that women tend to see themselves as leaders. We haven’t been socialized to think that way,” said the Massachusetts Unitarian pastor, who terms her goal the “de-frumpification” of the American clergy (male and female)."

Seriously, here, though, just as someone who doesn't exactly get carte-blanche credentials... making image way more important than you could probably understand: 'Frumpy' is an attitude.

Frankly, kind of imitating that 'ministerial' look does occasionally save a few 'No, we don't sacrifice babies, yes, we're a real religion' speech when you're trying to get somewhere someone needs help. :)

And a lot of Pagans feel long skirts are feminine and *festive,* if not practical.

And we don't even have vows of poverty. :)

"Wearing clothes that fit well, and are appropriately feminine makes a statement, she says. “I am an individual, I am confident and I understand how clothes work.” "

It could state that, I suppose, in some places. To whom, and what else, is my question.

Convention is involved, of course.

In my faith, we know how clothes work well enough to know heels and hose aren't so handy at the woodpile. :)

"Too often, at least on the East Coast, ordained women dress in a manner appropriate to a hippie love fest or a Goth birthday party -- peasant skirts or a funereal calf-length black suit, with hair and shoes to match."

Oh, Goddess, all that other stuff and still even Christian female clergy get dismissed on not *dressing up nice enough to be 'taken seriously.'

Didn't realize you had so many involuntary 'Goths and hippies,' though.

I mean, maybe it's a bias of a Catholic upbringing, but the *male* clergy wore 'funereal' black suits and ankle-length skirts, and nobody freaked out too much about *that.*

Heck, try being in my religion, on the Starhawk thread on sexism we got a lotta Christians gainsaying our whole religious community as being real on the basis they thought we were a bunch of 'ugly' girls who don't shave our legs. :)

*gasp.* :)

So our clergy don't get a big gift certificate to Filene's. We get by somehow.

:)

I don't believe that men suffer from all this guilt and perfectionism. I would hazard a guess that 90% of them never even think about taking care of everyone else's needs, much less doing it perfectly. If I sound mad at men - I am.

Comes now Spiderman2 who, having previously revealed his neochristian hatred, now reveals he is a mysoginist as well.

It's sad that even in the Body of Christ, women have to be more concerned with how they look than men. It's an extension of the obsession with women's physical appearance in the larger society. As a female pastor-in-progress AND woman of color, I find it ironic that women make up the majority of congregations and patriarchy continues to exist. The sin of patriarchy will end when women realize they are made in the image of God and are divinely equal to their male counterparts. We are ESSENTIAL to a healthy community of faith. I believe that all God is waiting for is the boldness of Her daughters to say "I've had enough". In addition. we will have to deconstruct the male sin of making the church, church doctrine, and God over in the male image. The HUGE influx of women into ministry is a movement of God and the beginning of the end of patriarchical abuse. If women clergy speak the truth we are gifted to tell, God will do the rest.

My mother was ordained over 40 years ago. She was in the pulpit before my father heard his own calling. During their long marriage of 50+ years, they often served as clergy-partners - but usually two-for-the-price of one. She held that unenviable role of both preacher and preacher's wife. And each brought their own unique style and point of view to the pulpit - and BOTH saw each other as equal in the eyes of God. My father has since died, and my mother has retired from active ministry, but she still preaches on an interim basis, still sings in a choir, and remains active in the church. She is one of the true pioneers of women in the ministry - her life is truly one of God's calling.

I noticed that churches which allow women to preach become liberal and stray from the teachings of the Bible. No wonder Apostle Paul instructed the early church not to allow women to preach.

TO ELIZABETH EVANS:

You wrote, "As a parish associate, I preached many well-crafted, dramatic, allusive sermons. But the one that people remember is where I describe hurling a plate of baby food across a breakfast nook after one of my kids had dumped it on the floor for the umpteenth time."

If you notice, Jesus took a lot of what He taught from everyday life including His Own.

Being a Christian is living in the day to day world.

Jesus didn't come to us in a vacumn before He began His public ministry, He was what we would call a blue-collar worker so He also brought to His ministry His Life experiences also, as it says, "He grew in Goodness and Grace before God and man.

Jesus was True God and True Man, as I put it He was 100% God and 100% Man, just as you and I are 100% from our dad and 100% from our mom, so was He.

You also wrote, "Wearing clothes that fit well, and are appropriately feminine makes a statement, she says. “I am an individual, I am confident and I understand how clothes work.”"

Well, we are all individuals, every member of the human family and unless the clothes are mandated then we should dress however we wish, the clothes are not the message.

As far as, "I understand how clothes work", I find that statement rather sad considering "The Good News" is what is important and clothes should not get in the way of "The Good News".

Sometimes, we can get so caught up in the details that we miss the big picture whether it be in what we wear or what the bible and "The Good News" really is.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.