God has God's ways.

I learned that first-hand, again, when I was ordained as an openly gay man in the Presbyterian Church in 2005. It can happen, even in the PC(USA), but there are only a handful of us at the moment. The opposition and barriers to ordination for LGBT sisters and brothers has been very effective. The ratification of this amendment would have made it possible for the many LGBT folk who God has called to serve others as ministers of Word and Sacrament in a world that is too-broken by such divisions.

The fear that prompts some to marginalize others for their own comfortability is strong, well-entrenched, and a true soul-sickness. In all the arguments to prevent LGBT folk from being ordained, we never hear of LGBT folk trying to exclude others to achieve a gracious and, yes, radical hospitality. In fact the message is always the same: we do not want to exclude our sisters and brothers; we believe we can be together, in spite of our differences; we believe that we can find a way to be together in love, not for our own benefit, but for those we are called to serve. This IS being faithful.

In making dozens of calls to ministers who support and oppose the ratification of 08-B, in almost every case I spoke with folks who are truly trying to be faithful and open to the Spirit. There was an equality in the presence of God in every conversation that affirms what I think we all know - it's time to move beyond the separation and to be open to ways to be faithful together. The only "right" or "wrong" has to do with hospitality not sexuality.

It may be that we have been given this struggle to overcome it, not by votes, but by extending and trusting in Love. It may just be that this struggle is the path God has given us for unification -- not division. I believe true healing will be the result of such a union.

When that happens, and it will, the world will be changed in ways that are beyond any telling. A church that "gets it right," that chooses love over marginalization and embracing one another in our differences will do more to carry the Good News than a church that bickers, divides, and is complicit in the violence that is part of any oppressive system.

With many others, please pray with us for such a time.

Thank you to my friend Janet and all those who struggle for the marriage of Justice and Love and the courage to be steadfast in their calls to serve all.

Rev. Ray Bagnuolo

I encourage Rev. Edwards in her ministry and hope that the PCUSA will one day consider GLBT candidates for ordination based on the content of their character and not the physical attribute of their sexual orientation. That is, on the candidate's commitment to do as Jesus emphasized: love God with all our heart, mind and soul, and love our neighbors as we love ourselves.

That requirement to love God and neighbor transcends the inequities of the human condition and allows us to rise above them to that spiritual level where God resides, where we are all equal souls before God, none better or worse than another, made in God's (spiritual) likeness, where there are no exceptions, where we are all afforded access. If we keep that focus, as Jesus suggested, all else is secondary.

Jesus calls all of us into relationship and radical transformation, not just us LGBT individuals. Perhaps instead of trying to damn us and convert our sexual identities perhaps hetrosexuals are in need of change. Meaning it is your hearts which need conversion, not mine.

GLOBALONE

You wrote, " We are mandated by Christ to hold ourselves, and each other, accountable for our words and actions."

I am not suppose to try and live someone else's life and no one else is suppose to try and live mine and this goes for the whole of humanity.

God forces Himself on no one in this life and you are trying to tell me that we are suppose to try and force ourself on others, is this correct?

Jesus said, "All power and authority has been given unto Me".

Maybe we should leave that "power and authority" with Someone that cares for each and every one of us more than anyone can imagine rather than trying to usurp it from Him.

"The measure that you judge with, will be the measure that you are judged with", how "in your face" simple do you want it put?

We will all go thru "judgement", whether or not we accept "personal responsibility" for our choices in life is our choice, we cannot make that choice for no one else, only for ourself.

"Christianity", in its true sense, is part of God's Plan which is unfolding before our very eyes and will come to Fruition.

See you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

SPIDERMAN2

You wrote, "Aren't you guys afraid that there really a God who exist?"

I know that God "exists" and I also know that we are not suppose to be afraid of God, as a matter of fact, "Fear of the Lord" means: "reverence and awe" not being afraid of God.

Who would want to have anything at all to do with your twisted "conception" of God?

We will all be judged and do you have any idea what the ""In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and
that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" is about?

"Vengeance" is judgement, it is not revenge.

The "flaming fire" is the Pure Love of God that will burn all of the "crud", so to speak, away.

God is LOVE, His Name is not magic.

The gospel is the "Good News for All" not the 'good enough news for some'.

You need not worry, God is not the loser that you think that He is.

As God said, "My Ways are not your ways and My Thoughts are not your thoughts".

You can underestimate God and His Plan if you like, you can even wish that God's Plan isn't worth didly but you are wrong.

See you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom, the new heavens and the new earth.

Remember the dawning of the seventh day shall arrive but the night of the sixth day shall come first.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Thomas,

"Didn't Jesus say, "Judge not, lest ye be judged"

Just a quick FYI: First, I believe you are taking that comment completely out of context. Second, the use of the english word "judge" is much different today than it's greek origin.

In reality, Jesus isn't making a blanket statement that judging others is wrong. In fact, it's quite the opposite. We are mandated by Christ to hold ourselves, and each other, accountable for our words and actions.

fr beforegod:

>I'm glad the "STRAIGHTS" are winning against the "NON-STRAIGHTS"!

Oh really??? How about working FOR Marriage Equality instead of AGAINST it?

"Likewise, their men have given up natural sexual relations with women and burn with lust for each other. Men commit indecent acts with men, so they experience among themselves the PUNISHMENT they deserve for their perversion. " (Romans 1:27)

"Although they know God's judgment that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do these things but also APPROVE OF OTHERS who do them." (Romans 1:32)

Evil can never prosper. In 10 years time, this debate will be over coz God will intervene. The nukes will be coming and it's going to land on evolutionist gay-marrying states.

"He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still:... And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."

Aren't you guys afraid that there really a God who exist?

"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and
that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ"

" ...except they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with death "

Sodom revisited.

OK, btw: People often seem to quote this as though it mean Jesus shared Paul's homophobia:

"NUNIVEK wrote, " Jesus would not have shunned them yet He would have also encouraged them to not act on these desires even if it meant to become like a eunuch for the sake of the kingdom."

Give us a *break,* here.

Seriously. This wasn't Jesus being a crypto-homophobe: before this passage, he was talking about *three kinds of very real actual 'eunuchs.'* They actually existed at the time. Jesus sas there are three kinds, those born (intersex people, those born with ambiguous genitalia, as there still are now, the Talmud recognizes this) Those 'made by men' (as in, yes, some slaves got their bits snipped, actually, for real, and in actual fact) and those 'eunuchs for the kingdom of Heaven,' (not uncommon figures in various temples of the time: not OK by Hebrew law, to my knowing, but not an unfamiliar concept. It wasn't a metaphor. If Jesus said, 'let those that can bear it, receive that,' that sounds more clear and 'literal' than any notion he must be saying, 'Actually, I thought I'd indirectly say be mean to queer people'

Real and actual eunuchs would not be unfamiliar figures at the time. Not a metaphor.

If it *was* a metaphor, would he have qualified the statement with 'Let those who can bear it?'

OK... Suppose some people aren't cut out to bear your metaphor, even if you don't buy that argument.

I'd say, just look at CCNL, if you want to see what fruits come of the 'tree' of the teachings that sex and even masturbation are not only *bad* but somehow a *priority.*

I mean. Gods. Mine and yours. CCNL here wants to *define* my and my dear one's legal rights, as souls and American citizens, *by* his idea he can *define* our marital life as 'mutual masturbation' ..on the presumption masturbation is bad and that's all same-sex people could possibly do... however idiotic the idea is.

Hel, it's *men* who pretty much treat sex like just a way to get off, and it's an 'OK' sin as long as you might accidentally get knocked up...

What?

That's no way to live, never mind imagine others live.

Let's stop talking falsely, though. You Christians don't honor eunuchs at all.

Gods, you can't even masturbate without shame, never mind honor the Gods with it. Then turn around and try and tell others who can have legal rights based on how banal you imagine our sex must be?

Seriously. It's idiotic. Just a question of how long you care to cling to the idea. I think your Jesus had other things in mind.

Oh, right. You already *have* circle jerks. Like Chris Mathews and the McLaughlin group. Well, keep working on that. :)

"Heterosexual activity is defined as intercourse. Gay sexual activity is defined as mutual masturbation."

By you. Only. And... An awful lot. Actually, I can't recall when you last said anything else.

If that's your mind, may want to look to that.

" Voters should always be reminded of this."

Actually, that's not a bad idea. If 'conservatives' all just got together and *masturbated* before voting, or, indulging in punitry, why, we might just restore some dignity to our democracy, yet. :)

Outstanding, CCNL. :)

Heterosexual activity is defined as intercourse. Gay sexual activity is defined as mutual masturbation. Voters should always be reminded of this.

NUNIVEK

You wrote, " Jesus would not have shunned them yet He would have also encouraged them to not act on these desires even if it meant to become like a eunuch for the sake of the kingdom."

Just how do you know that?

Didn't Jesus say, "Judge not, lest ye be judged".

Didn't Jesus say, "I have not come to condemn the world but that the world might be saved".

"I desire mercy, not sacrifice", "Forgive us our trespasses AS we forgive those who trepass against us".

Being a "Christian" is NOT telling others what to do, it is at least attempting to follow Jesus.

We do not find our "true identity" in community, we find it within, it is not "mob mentality".

What do you think our "true identity" is?

As I have said, "God is a searcher of hearts and minds not of religious affiliations or lack thereof.

In case you didn't know it, the "accuser's" job is taken, the liar and the thief, satan, has that job, sure does seem that a lot of people calling themself "christian" want to give satan a helping hand.

As I have said, God wins, satan loses, a tie in unacceptable.

If you think something is wrong then don't do it, have you ever heard the phrase, "He who is without sin cast the first stone"?

Since God became One of us, that means that ALL of us are Jesus's brothers and sisters.

Have you ever heard this, "I give you a new command, Love one another as I have loved you", do you know Who said this?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

PS: Rev. Dr. Janet Edwards.

MY 1-st-SON (Auburn-Hair) is an "EDWARDS."

HALLALUYA!

Praise The HOLY-NO-MAN or NO-WOMEN!

PS: So Islam; WE Know, WE know ... Already WE know G-D iNNATELY/NATURALLY! We know We know .. Already! STOP forcing on yourselves what WE (not only You) Know!

WE don’t need MUHAMMAD to tell Us IT is so! Like wise,
We don’t need MOSES either!
WE Don’t Need JESUS!
WE don’t need VYASA!
We Don’t need GAUTAMA!
WE Don’t need CONFUSION …

to tell Us, on a Modern Internet -World What We are in NATURE GOD or GODs-NATURE or how to behave therein & there from!. WE do not need TAUTOLOGY via Man-Made books stuffs & Things to tell Us.. Chumash’s/Bibles, Qurans/Korans, Geeta’s/Sruti’s Kangyur’s/Kengyur’s Tripitaka’s etc..!!

WE Don’t need Vails/Burkas, Kufi’s/HeadScarves etc..! WE don’t need 24/7 minarets (mosque towers w/loud-Speakers now) to blast-TAUTOLOGY over the entire Umma/Community! WE don’t need Double-Standards Psychosis’s ; One for believers & another for non Believers etc..! So, Please Stop the Brain-Washing! Stop the Brain Washing! G-D is getting MAD! Please;

WE NEED THE, “O.ne U.niversal R.eligion”, a.k.a the “OUR” Book! Your Reality is Your/OUR Religion!

Stop Killing or get killed over someone-else’s Psychology? TAUTOLOGY (not OUR(s)!

I'm glad the "STRAIGHTS" are winning against the "NON-STRAIGHTS"!

Your depiction of Jesus' ministry is not very complete Rev. Dr. Edwards. Yes Jesus dined with, worked with, and directly ministered to those most reviled hated and rejected within his society. He gave them dignity and treated them with the utmost respect and showed them love and compassion that the rest of the society withheld. But Jesus did not just allow them to continue living as they were, He came to fulfill the law and to provide for them the opportunity to live holistically. What this meant was that He ministered to their needs and humanized them where others treated them like dirt, yet He also empowered them to change their lives.
Biology and environment, whatever the cause may be, results in members of our community being attracted to the same-sex, Jesus would not have shunned them yet He would have also encouraged them to not act on these desires even if it meant to become like a eunuch for the sake of the kingdom. Christianity isn't about being what you want to be, but following Christ in community which is where we find our true identity. This requires each and everyone one of us to give all that we are.

I don't like this spin. Presbyterians need to be honest with themselves. They are part of an anti-gay organization.