walter-in-fallschurch,

"i've always found the eastern religions much more interesting (though, just as false) as "western ones."

Cute. You know Walter, I always try to be as truthful as possible, even if it is undesirable.

I am disinterested in your attempt at an affirmation while you negate that very thing. I would prefer if you said outright that you thought Eastern religions sucked just like you think Western religions suck. It would be more honest.

So, suck off, Walter in Falls Church.

My honesty. Hope you appreciate it.

justillthen,
i've always found the eastern religions much more interesting (though, just as false) as "western ones. judeochrislam seems like a cartoon compared to the sophisticaion of buddhism, hinduism, zen, taoism etc...

Walter-falls,

Thank you for the post. No, I voted against, though I have always been spiritually inclined. At that point the Church made little sense, but I was already pursuing other more eastern views.

Thank you for the interest. And for the acknowledgment.

justillthen,
well, no, actually, i assumed your family voted you out of the church, possibly due to your having expressed doubt, but that they themselves remained "faithful."

guess i was wrong all around.

"Judeo-Christian-Islamic?"

Really, isn't it just time to say 'Pluralistic?'

If 10 to 18 percent of those brought as slaves from Africa were Muslims, (wherever that figure was derived) ...that means that 82-90 percent were not... And there probably weren't a lot of Christians and Jews among those.

That means.. Call it ninety percent 'everyone else'

We've *all* got non-Abrahamic roots, and most certainly cultural institutions, from many, many places and cultures. Things like 'Democracy' and a 'Republic...' ...these are Pagan ideas in the first place, connections that perhaps some like to try and obscure when they try to make America a place of Abrahamic privilege, and undercut people's rights to *not* observe what Abrahamics claim.

There's more of 'the rest of us' here than Muslims. Something bothers me a bit about someone starting to claim Muslims get in the 'Abramamics-only-club' of who's American when the whole claims of 'Our Judeo-Christian nature' are *meant* to claim the right to exclude others from their American birthrights.

It's more setting-up-of divisions against some of us who probably have the *least* particular problem with sharing our country with Muslim Americans.

Hello Farnaz,

"There are subtle ways in which a well intentioned person such as Mr. Land may yet unwittingly communicate ambivalence, no matter how small, and confusion."

"Mr. Land begins by taking the stance of the victim,..."

There was nothing ambivalent or subtle about the clear and definite way that he condemned the act, named it murder, and condemned all such acts. He presented his history of being among Christians condemning past murders of abortion doctors. He states clearly that he considers abortion an evil, but that any Christian response must fall far short of violent, and considers violent acts and particularly murder to be against God.

I see no indication of him taking the stance of the victim. At all. But you do, Farnaz, or you use that excuse as your rationale. But there is little rational in it, for the essay is clear and shows no indication of your "ambivalence" or "confusion". Except in your mind.

This matters little, but as another example of your tendency to warp the postings of others of contrary position to you own, to your own interpretations, and then believe the delusion. You denied your repeated demonstration of that in our dialogue. No surprise. Perhaps you can see more clearly in the mirror of the Land thread. It should be very, very clear.

Acknowledgment of the obvious is a power, though not one that takes an acute perception. Just the willingness to view and recognize what is. It is something to be respected.

Correction to previous posting:

This is from Land's essay and should have been placed in quotation marks:

"Particularly as citizens in a democracy, we must remember the government is ordained of God (Romans 13). It is His expectation that we submit to and obey those He has allowed to be in authority over us."

This is what I wrote to Mr. Land:

Mr. Land,

"Be honest with yourself. Reread your own essay. This is a simple matter of murder, unsurprising considering the climate "pro-lifers" create. Search your soul. What more could you do to see that such an atrocity never happens again?"

There are subtle ways in which a well intentioned person such as Mr. Land may yet unwittingly communicate ambivalence, no matter how small, and confusion.

Mr. Land begins by taking the stance of the victim, all to characteristic of Christianists, to be distinguished, although the the distinction has been made endlessly, from Christians.

"Despite the fact that some have already used the media to try and paint the entire pro-life movement with the bloody brush of this heinous crime, in truth it is an extraordinarily tiny and maniacal minority that will condone Dr. Tiller's murder."

This "tiny and maniacal minority," does not appear to be so tiny and is making itself heard throughout the web, throughout this blog, one way or another. Many who are not so maniacal have sought to "understand" him in light of abortion "murder," rather than condone his killing.

More Land quotations:

"the gravity of the moral evil of abortion on demand."

Particularly as citizens in a democracy, we must remember the government is ordained of God (Romans 13). It is His expectation that we submit to and obey those He has allowed to be in authority over us.

"Most Christians who believe, as we do, that the overwhelming majority of abortions are morally unjustifiable acts of killing, rightly feel the need to offer significant moral response."

Christians must render unto Caesar in this Christian God ordained government, while Caesar murders babies.

Again, I think Mr. Land is well intentioned. That he could benefit from greater introspection, that he could do more to fight the Mohlers among us, I maintain.

Farnaz,

"Oh, indeed, I have read yours, Charlemagne."

And so my statements of your non-comprehension. Any non biased reading of my posts would make my points and position clear, and they are anything but understood or clear to you.

"There are none so blind as those who will not see,..."

Well said, Farnaz.

Your opening statement to Mr. Land regarding the murder of Dr. Tiller:

"Be honest with yourself. Reread your own essay. This is a simple matter of murder, unsurprising considering the climate "pro-lifers" create."

Mr. Lands opening statement in his essay:

"The murder of Dr. George Tiller is a human tragedy."

Closing statements:

"Clearly the killing of abortion providers is unbiblical, unchristian and un-American. Such callous disregard for human beings brutalizes everyone."

"Let's be clear about this. The struggle here is not between "pro-life" and "pro-choice"­-it is between civilization and barbarism. The murder of Dr. Tiller is an act of domestic terrorism and should be condemned by every civilized person in our nation."

I did not accuse you of bigotry in your statements to Mr. Land. I suggested something closer to ignorance of what he wrote.

"You cannot plead your obvious lack of education since education does not bring enlightenment,..."

"Your limited education and more limited intelligence do not excuse you."

Thank you Farnaz, though you do assume a bit here. And I, who made a veiled compliment to your intelligence. But if your education brought you this snobbery and elitism regarding education, then I shall take it as an attempted insult from you. That is fine with me.

walter-in-fallschurch,

You assume that I voted to stay in the Church, Walter. My family took a simple majority vote of whether to stay in an active or to leave. All but one voted to leave. I was not that one. But, I was eleven... :-)

O U C H!

justilthen writes:

"You certainly must not have read mine."

Oh, indeed, I have read yours, Charlemagne. Pity is you do not read yourself. Name-calling won't do it. Equivocation won't do it. Glittering generalities won't do it, etc., etc., etc.

You cannot plead your obvious lack of education since education does not bring enlightenment, nor do the reading difficulties you evince both with respect to my posts on Dr. Tiller, to the panelists' essays, and to your own pathetic offerings necessarily result in racism.

There was no bigotry in my postings regarding the murder of Dr. Tiller. There is only bigotry in your Christianist postings on Jews. Only that.

There are none so blind as those who will not see, and you will not. Your limited education and more limited intelligence do not excuse you.

justillthen, you said,
"Born and baptized, left the church by family vote early on."

wow! what does that mean? were you "voted out" somehow? by your family? really?

Ah, Farnaz. You reappear from your cave of delusional certitude! Welcome, Judeo-Crusader! I will assume that you are still wearing your Helmet of Silence so that all you hear will only validate what you already believe to be true, so I will then assume as well, from now on, that whatever I write to you will be misunderstood and used against me in your Court of Condemnation.

It is better to release the attachment to being comprehended beforehand. But it does bring the question of why respond at all.

"Yuh think? You should have addressed these words to yourself."

Yes, I do think, therefore the post. I have said this to you several times, Farnaz, and many more times in these threads. I am not Christian. Born and baptized, left the church by family vote early on. Many spiritual journeys since. If I had to call myself something specific now it would probably have to be Buddhist.

I am not your Christian devil.

If I were a Christian, (I still have a love for the essential message, if one remains, of Jesus), I would not find much commonality among the "majority" Christian evangelicals. So to the second...

Btw., aren't you "tired" of the Christians as you are of "the Jews"... "

Yes, and no shortage of it after eight years of being led by a Evangelical Crusader. Don't get me started on the Bloody Christians, Farnaz.

You do not appear to have an open mind when taking in the writing of others. You did a horrid job of understanding me in our last debate on Cyber Anti-Semitism, http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/georgetown/2009/05/cyber_anti-semitism.html , as you are so biased and prejudiced it seems as to supplant reason. And you seem an intelligent woman...

You continued your non-comprehension, for instance, with your comments to Mr. Land on the murder of Dr. Tiller,
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/richard_land/2009/06/tiller_death_unbiblical_unchrisitan_and_un-american.html

Do you read these essays at all or just presuppose their conclusions and go straight to your comments. You certainly must not have read mine.

Ooooppsa:

All This Sharading, Acting, Tautology Talking, Bending, meeting half way... is a SCRIPT (Pre thought by the White House) Vintriloquesed by the PLUTOCRATS & their Secondary "Ex-Robber Barons turned "Newly Captains of OUR (not their) Industries ...

For the "Re-Election of OBAMA & CO.! So,

Please Vote: APOCALYPTIC GOVERNMENT, aka GRiDARIAN DEMOCRACY" & Not Pre-APOCALYPTIC Government!

Besides voting for Nomore Theocracy & No Monarchy on O.U.R. Holy-i Cosmic, Nebula Built, S.S. Earth, aka S.S. GAiA, aka S.S. GEOiD, aka S.S. TELLUSng something, THAT

Please VOTE: "NAY" to "PLURALiTY" of [Competing] Religion(s) in Sweet Sweet Amerixca and

Instead VOTE: "YEA" to "SiNGULARiTY" of (no competing for a name for god INSTEAD of our G-D) Religion in Sweet Sweet U.S. of A.!

Prophecy: OUR miraculous man made "REPUBLiC" (not Democracy, & not via any bibles) of the U.S., will experience an Additional 50 States (+/- 100 States) under it's Flag/Constitution inevitably!

Yes, ALL the Way to the tip of PANAMA (where Prez Wannabe & Plutocrat Sen. J. McCain was Born). A Real Apocalyptic United States, not Pre-Apocalyptic U.S.!?

Imagine yourself being able to weewee-on or spitoon-at or sceet rocks at Chavez & Co. towards Venezuala [a divided South America]?

Note:

According to the "OUR-BOT" {O.ne U.niversal R.eligion B.ook O.f T.rans{Finity}} THAT

LIFE & LOVE is a Miracle in Holy-i Motion & that WE [i] Us APOCALYPTARIAN Nationals, (Not Ye Pre-Apocalyptic Nationals) was never borneth ViA any man made CURSETH/SiNETH Story's after all;

Includes them (not OUR) ABRAHAMiC Old Time "Drunkin Noah [Racist] War Blessing Story's" et al. AND

Includes them (not OUR) VEDiC "Arjuna/Krishna War Blessings" Story's et al Pre-Apocalyptic (not Apocalyptic) SuperStupidStitious Jealous Story's.!

--- PS: How many Death's occur during the Annual "HAjj Mass Murderings" in Saidi Arabia???

Hint: Since 1990 to 2007; the Whabbi's caused the Killings of +/- 3,700 Musloms/Molems/Muzle-Womb/Mans via "STAMPEDE" (like Rams/Cows/Camels/Horses..) & via the "STONING OF THE SATAN/Devil/JiNN/KALi..", not only adulterers, or from "Self FLAGULATION"!??? Soo,

Such "MEMEtic" Behaviours must Change or Be Changed! Hence Like Napolian did Europe, the Bush/Obama [modern?] Napolians of the Middle-East & Pak/Afghan are doing respectfully! Vote: No Theocracy & No Monarchy on S.pace S.hip Earth!

iNCAMERA (secret): Bin Ladin is Dead almost 2 Years now. His Face on [Gov Controlledor Cooperating] Media put that up there as a "Big Lie" to distract unsuspecting Tax-Paying Americans! And

iNCAMERA (Secret) That Every Penny, like War Reperations, that was Spent during the Clinton, Bush & now Obama War efferts; will be returned Us via "Payment in Kind" Ironically from Saudi's, Iraq's & Iran's massive Oil Reserves! In other words America is getting payed back in Oil not Dollars! A stealthy Barter-Thing evolving between Nations/Governments right under OUR noses! Soo,

Every "Red Cent" rised at the PETRO Pump here; Pay's for Their War (PLUTOCRATS, acting like SOCIALISTS) with OUR, not Their) Money.

Note: They Have not "Nationalized" the Big/Little Oil Company's, Why?

Dear Mr. Robert Parham & CO;

Please think "GLOBALLY" 1st and thus act "LOCALLY" 2nd! Hence EMPATHY! So,

Please stop thinking the other way around; else APATHY YE in& Ye congregation indulge's in! You are BOLLIXING the BOLLIXED much more than the poor souls already are!

Note: All, Every & Any [Pre-Apocalyptic] man made competing Religion(s) in sweet sweet U.S. of A., ARE

infact "iMPORTED" Religion System(s); NOT MADE/BORN/PROPHECIED in & on this NEBULA Blessed AMERICA! Soo,

Please EXPORT All, Every & Any of Ye Abrahamic (not OUR) JUDEO JEWISH & YE JUDEO CHRISTIAN (not OUR) & YE (not OUR)JUDEO-ISLAMIC & YE Vedic (not OUR) JUDEO-HINDU & YE (not OUR) JUDEO-BUDDHA, CONFUCions.. Man Made Religion back from whence they came [Middle east, Europe, Asia, Africa..]!

Soo, Goodbye & Good Ridence Chumash/Bibles, Quran/Korans, Geeta/Kangyurs...!

HELLO the "RELIGION of Everything before the SCIENCE of everything"!

Yes. The "O.ne U.niversal R.eligion" [OUR] "B.OOK O.F T.RANS{FiNiTY}" [BOT] is borneth in sweet sweet U.S. of A! And in the Holy State of NEW YORK, USA; as told Ye so so many times!

HELLO {WORLD}!

Mr. Parkham,

No Jews I have ever known comprehend the phrase Judeo-Christian. The two religions are vastly different. What exactly does this omnipresent word mean? Especially, in light of so much Christian antisemitism, some clarity in terms is long, long overdue.

"Our Judeo-Christian-Islamic Tradition." An analysis of the former pope's "Abrahamic," largely meaningless?

I commend Mr. Syeed for his efforts. However, terms should be precise and transparent. The author's is not.

With respect to Moses, it is true that Musa is greatly respected in Islam, at least as respected as Jesus, if not more so. There is more in Quoran regarding Musa than any other prophet.

However, with some in the Islamic community seeking to connect with Christian anti-semites, Musa is often downplayed and, indeed, some of the Quoran translations delete material on this prophet, featuring "additions" to the Arabic regarding relations among Christians and Muslims.

Of course, when push comes to shove, Islam shares with Judaism the taboo on idolatry. This is one, but only one, reason for the discrimination, oppression of Christians in most Muslim countries. In fact, it is much more complicated. Anti-Americanism and, in some cases, e.g., Pakistan and Bangladesh, caste plays a part.

As for Jesus (Isa), in Islam, he was wholly mortal, did not die, and will return. Those who believe he was the "Son of God" are condemned in Quoran in the strongest possible terms.

justilthen writes to Ahbab: "Get used to it. Christians live in a world that is peopled by those of many different, and valid, ways of understanding their lives and loves. Indeed, Christians can hardly brag of their adherence to the message of the Prince of Peace, between themselves and certainly towards others."

Yuh think? You should have addressed these words to yourself. And then you should have read them over and over and over again.

Btw., aren't you "tired" of the Christians as you are of "the Jews" (sic), tired and "bored" (sic)? Exhausted, even, faint, dead on your feet, with hardly the strength left to breathe? Aren't you, at least, weary of Muslims?

i believe the word the author is looking for is "judeochrislamic".

Zebra4

Syed Kimran Mirza?????? He is Abhab! He is Helocelz1!!!! (All three in one)

The site he is refering to belongs to his father ali sina, a snail in the hiding.

These people are all paid to write against Islam and hence no serious discussion can be carried with them.

How many modern hospitals and Harvards are in the poorest Christian countries of the world--Haiti or the Philippines, or the Christian countries of Latin America?

Perhaps you never heard of the libraries of Baghdad, Cordoba or 1,000 year old Al-Azhar university.

Why are you determined to prove yourself to be an ignorant person like Archie Bunker, Mr Halozcel1?

Syed Kimran Mirza:

ABHAB is manufacturing things up. He does not know that a person's name can not be Syed and end in Mirza.

*The crusaders brought back from islamic world the idea of modern hospital and public library*
-If they built *modern hospital* 1000 years ago,where are the contempopary modern hospital in islamic world ?
-Library ? Where were those libraries and books ?

*The madrasah became the seedbad for western university*
-Where are those islamic Oxford,M.I.T. and Harvard ?

Cotton Princess and her prince,with white horse,got merried and were very happy.

The End of the Tale.

Realities:

-How many *modern hospital* are there in islamic world ?
-There are,at least,10000 madrasah in Pakistan.Is there only one Harvard among them ?

Leave it to you, Abhab, to take a positive and real-life story of a good Muslim-American family and try to make 'em all terrorists. Do you work for Fox for a living, or are you just one of the idiot stations that replicate and leapfrog the message of fear. It is counterproductive to finding common ground, which there is much of, and is disgusting.

Get used to it. Christians live in a world that is peopled by those of many different, and valid, ways of understanding their lives and loves. Indeed, Christians can hardly brag of their adherence to the message of the Prince of Peace, between themselves and certainly towards others.

The majority of Muslims, like the majority of Christians, are good and descent people. Stop lying about them as if they all were Ossamas, Omars, or Attas. They are not, and you should know that. This story is about one of them, and there are far too few of these stories being told, competing for air time over the bullhorns of CNN and Fox.

Try replicating a message more akin to your professed Lord, Jesus, Christian, and sing a song of Peace and Brotherhood, and Compassion and Forgiveness. If nothing else it sounds more pleasant than the clash-Metal of your usual tune.

Syed Kimran Mirza, an exMuslim wrote in part on "FaithFreedom.org" blog.

"These so called “Inter-faith meetings and congregations” are Islamic deception—invented only after 9/11, to avoid repercussions or hate-crimes against Muslim immigrants. This is in fact, an Islamic historical technique of war widely practiced by Prophet of Islam in 7th century to fool the Pagans. Prophet of Islam said: “war is a deception.” Present day Islamists also do the same technique of deception practiced by Prophet Muhammad. Any time, any where, Muslims are arrested for terrorism, or some young Muslims were caught red-handed for hatching a terrorism plot, immediately some cunning Islamist Mullahs will come out and will beat the drum saying: “Islam has nothing to do with terrorism. Quran never allows killing any innocent human, Islam is a religion of peace!” Muslims in general will mostly deny or repudiate that any true Muslims can do terrorism, or Muslims are ever involved in any terrorism around the world. This is simply an act of cover-up or hiding the real face of Islam. This is only to fool the western Medias and western useful idiots....."