Say Hey AKA K Kelley...I'm still here...looks like its just us chickens...

Just popped in to ask:Is this page still
on? When will it change I wonder.
Interesting though,I would like it to
continue even ifit becomes boring in the
end.Washington Post,I say this because
I do not know whether you have other
guest discussions.
This was my first encounter here.
Hey,my in box is full of your news
bulletins that needs reading/deleting
accordingly.
Thanks
P/S There is only one ISP allowed per
household.Thus cousin S.1 is she.
For your information:
Me?A.K.A (K Kelly)
Me? A.K.A K.Kelly

You know, this reminds me of the Harry S. Truman presidency and the UN partition of Palestine. President Truman was dead set against the partition, new it would be a disaster, and wanted to bring half the European Jewish refugees to the US, and find a home in Europe for the remainder. His state department was also opposed to the partition near unanimously.

But alas, an election year was rapidly approaching, 60% of Americans were opposed to Jewish immigration, and the Republican candidate Dewey was tearing him up in the polls.

This is similar to the predicament that President Obama finds himself in today. He knows that the right thing to do is to stand up to Bibi and his supporters in congress and the American populace, and demand an immediate halt to all construction in the settlements. But it would be political suicide, and he is a politician above all else, even personal honor.

This makes us on the side of the wrong (the real terrorists) and Hamas on the side of the right (the true freedom fighters). There can be no doubt about who will eventually come out on top of this conflict, and the losers are in for a very hard fall in deed.

To Reality 28:And others:An addendum:
The Orthodox Jews do not rule the country
of Israel.They can holler,and scream but
ultimately the majority of the Israelis
are secular and would abhore being dictated to by the religious establshment.
The problem with the Israeli voting system
is the culprit.Whereby they have "proportional" representation,rather than "first passed the post" as in Britain.
Why the Knesset is a mish,mash of so many parties amalgamations,with one party,or another.I must say,I hope one day Israel adopts the Brit' way.
Am I being too optimistic,I guess so.
After all I am no politician.
My toughts for what is worth?I do not trust any politician,they promise the EARTH (as did Obama)once in office they change tack/renege on all their promises.They are on a par to lawyers/actors.Good in speechifying,empty rhetoric.

That’s right.Your moniker is so apt “Whistling”Probably in the dark for sure.
You should turn it on his head by admitting it is the Arabs that don’t want peace,not Israel.From day one the Arabs had decided not to accept that the Jews returned to their land.After a short hiatus they are back where they belong.
Arabs? They have 22 countries and to greedy to want a 23r?
Arabs want All of Israel.Palestinians (so-called want all of Israel).Well chum,they are not going to get it.It would behove you to think what came first,the CHIKEN or the EGG? Islam was not even heard of when Jews had a history going back to 5.000 years.Almost as long as Persia.Do the math.And I am not talking about religion,but as a Nation.

ANIDJart .You say:I believe we should leave the comments to the people that live in Israel. I surely would not like to live my life with a neighbor that it is always trying to kill me and destroy my family. we have heard about peace. There has been no peace. All I have seen is Israel always have to give something for nothing.

Absolutely true,and I blame in part the Israeli leaders who pander to world opinion which counts for nothing.The world does not have to endure the constant belligerence from the Islamists.No a day of peace since the state was re-established.
Continues

To CCNL on Jesus
Your post is quite absurd.Jesus may have been a preacher but he taught all his deciples verbatim from the OT.
After his untimely demize the whole NT was distorted through the decades by the editoralists.The one who promulgated
Christianity was not Jesus,but Paul/Shaul.
Jesus never once said he was the Messiah.
If one reads the NT properly and when Simon/Shimon/Peter denounced Jesus and the so-called crow at the time?well:One thing has to be reminded to the ignorants here: In the precincts of Jerusalem "fowl" was not allowed.
So,you can take it all with a grain of salt.
More later perhaps?

For And Michael_Ah_Oleary who believes
Goldstone's report was not accepted by
IsraelWhy? because it was a biased and full of holes that is why you dummy.
He is still bemoaning that the majority of the democratic countries VOTED AGAINST it.
Making it clear his report is all BS,and not worthy to his judicial incompetence.

Solange1

You wrote, "I have already submitted my response.
It is awaiting approval."

If you wait for "approval", you will probably wait forever.

What you probably need to do is break it up into pieces and send it. There is a limit on the length of any one sent piece, exactly what, I don't know. Whenever one of my postings has been "held for approval", I divide it up and it goes thru fine.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

To:realitycheck28
Well said.The Orthodox Jews may be fundemental,but they most certainly do not strap bomb belts around their bodies to kill people.

Blaming Jews/Israelis constantly has become a joke too far.One should look at what occurred in 9/11,7/7,Madrid,Bali,Istambul,even Saudi Arabia(that I discount)for they are the instigators/dissaminators/promulgators of the present day Jihadism which is the crux of the matter.
I will leave it at that for now.
p/s Washington Post.What happened to my PART ONE response?

Part two:Think before you accuse.According to the enemies that surround Israel Jews are not supposed to be there at all.
Arab refugees:The reason why thousands of Arab refugees are still dispersed throughout the ME's Islamic countries:They have been kept as pawns for their ulterior motive.
Or are some of you as naive to think otherwise?
Israeli Arabs know which side their butter is spread on believe me folks.One of good reasons why the Palestinians prefer to remain as Israeli Arabs citizens rather than relocate into any Arab state.
Israel gives them the opportunity to live in freedom,whereby this would be denied them in any of their bretren's countries.
Israel has Arab members in the Knesset,the rest of the populace are cared for with all the amenities provided,same as their Jewish counterparts.
I will leave you to ponder awhile,I have tried to inform the biased and the ignorants.
By the way,when Israel ceded Gaza left by its previous occupiers(Egypt)in dire straits,the Arabs would not dare complain,so MOUTHS TIGHT SHUT,is the motto of Arab brother love.One witnesses all nowadays everywhere.Arabs killing Arabs Israel having ceded Gaza with all its infrastructures left by the Jewish settlers over a period of 40+years working side by side with their Arabs.The settlers were encouraged by successive Govt' to settle.Thet did not initiate the proposition.Accepted and built a viable beautiful community/city with blood,sweat and tears,literaly.
Look at it now.Hamas destroyed everything and turned the place into a qassam launching pad to kill Jewish Israelis in the towns of Sderot and environs.
Hey,do I have to draw you people a picture to explain WHAT INDEED IS THE TRUTH?
Enough said.Your minds are made up to the scurrilous lies perpetrated by the enemies of Israel.
Think before you submit nonsens

Bibi will not freeze settlements and Abu Mazen will not enter peace talks until settlements are frozen. The most important thing to discuss in any Israeli/Palestinian peace talks is the rate at which Israel will dismantle all existing settlements outside the Green Line and return to inside its pre-1967 Green Line borders. This is absolutely impossible as long as settlements continue to expand.

The most important thing to discuss in any proposed international peace talks is the sanctions to impose on the Israelis until they are 100% back inside the Green Line. An airtight oil and natural gas embargo being the most effective.

I believe we should leave the comments to the people that live in Israel. I surely would not like to live my life with a neighbor that it is always trying to kill me and destroy my family.

Throughout the history of Israel and the Arabs living in the nation of Israel, we have heard about peace. There has been no peace. All I have seen is Israel always have to give something for nothing.

I have already submitted my response.
It is awaiting approval.You've got it,publish or not.
Am not going to repeat it.Although I saved it.
Too late,early hours,
Thanks and good night

I would add one further source of disquietude if not despair felt by many Israelis. It is the outpouring of anti- Semitic hatred from around the world against Israel. This is manifest even on 'talkback' sites like this one. The sheer ignorance and stupidity combined with the absolute viciousness of many of these haters is sad and difficult to rationally make sense of.

The key fact is that, in the areas encompassing Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza, there are approximately 12 million people – 6 million Jews and 6 million Muslims. Everyone seems to ignore this basic fact.

Muslims insist on arguments that the Jews move away. Jews insist on arguments that the Muslims move away. Neither will happen.

At the same time, the current situation, in which 6 million Jews essential rule over themselves and also over 6 million Muslims is highly unstable and fraught with peril. The truth is that Israel’s ruling over the entire area for the last half-century has not proved productive of peace.

To the contrary, extremist Jewish religious and nationalistic groups in Israel have caused Israel to adopt policies harmful to the interest to the Muslim population in Israel and in the territories. Most of these policies are blatantly intended to marginalize the Muslims and also, in many cases, to push them off the land. The worst examples are the Israeli settlers, but there are many other Israeli policies that also serve this purpose. These policies have only served to radicalize the Muslims, who have moved from airline hijackings to suicide bombers.

There are many factors suggesting that this entire area be placed under one state: the natural border (which obviously extends from the sea to the Jordan river) and the natural resources, particularly water, are two vital indicators of such a solution. However a state with 6 million Jews and 6 million Muslims obviously could not be a “Jewish” state. Because having a Jewish state is absolutely essential to one of the sides, the solution of a single country will not work.

Still, it is not productive to insist that the Muslims agree to a Jewish state until the Muslims are allowed to see an overall solution that also addresses their legitimate concerns as well. The 6 million Jews are not going away. And neither are the 6 million Muslims.

One string, so you are a self hating Jew; we have many of you to laugh at. You are so progressive that you progressed right past the truth. What Golda Meir said was that when palestinian mothers learn to love their children more than they hate isrelis, there will be peace. Whats wrong with that. its true. The Palestinians and arabs as a whole support suicide bombers, they thrive on a culture of death. Radical Islamists time and time again extol the virtues of death over life. Those are the nut jobs you defend. They also fire rockets into schoolyards and hospitals but do you care, no. Its ok to you because Israeal is always there to blame. You live in a fantasy land where if Israel defends itself it is an act of provocation. Hezbollah and Hamas have ammased huge asernals of rockets and are ready to fire away and to you israel is the problem. What koolaid are you drinking?

As for Hasidic Jews being a danger, show me one act of terror from a hasidic jew, so to compare them to the fanatical arabs blowing up men, women and children with no regard to who they are is disgusting. You are a nazi if you equate the two because arab fanantics kill without regard to who they are killing and hasidic jews harm no one.

Just admit the truth, you are a self hating jew who is ashamed to be jewish. You want acceptance and you will never get it because you won't stand up for it.

I am proud to be Jewish and I marvel at the contribution we have made to make the world a better place. And G-d bless the IDF who is the most moral army in the world. It is scum like Goldstone that seeks to say otherwise but the world knows the real truth. The Europeans pay lip service to muslim UN demands to keep their own muslim populations under control not because they support arab causes. They are just sick of seeing their people blown up by sucicde bombers for no reason.

It is 60 year since Israel was established in the modern era and not one atab leader has made a real offer for Peace. Go watch arab tv and listen to the speechs they make in arabic and everyday is another day of incitement where they teach their children, using micky mouse, to hate jews. Those are the people you are defending. In reality, you are worse than a nazi.

...And furthermore the COMMUNISTS who invented Zionism can be blamed for the entire mess today because they HAVE INDEED APPROPRIATED PALESTINIAN HOMES, WEST BANK LAND, AND PLACED SETTLEMENTS IN ARABF NEIGHBORHIIDS IN ORDER TO DOMINATE THE LANDSCAPE.

Golda Mier famously (and in disgusting un-jewish fashion) said "There are no Palestinians".

She also insultingly claimed that Palestinian mothers favored death for their children when she stated that war would end when Palestinian mothers preferred the lives of their children over war.

Anyone who says otherwise is simply not facing the truth, facts, and recorded history...or is an outright liar for personal gain, or out of hatred.

I'm Jewish - I just refuse the cool-aid because I'm AMERICAN. Israel is behaving in very UN-Jewish ways.

Keep your hate to yourself.

Israel's population is controlled by radical fundamentalists. The Hasidic community is just as anti-social, anti-progress, and just as stone-age-minded as Hamas and Islamic Jihaad are. Probably just as hate motivated as all other fundamentalist groups are, too.

When Israel's population rejects their leadership's fundamentalist/tribalist modus operendi in favor of moderation and political solutions that allow peace and progress in society there can be peace in the middle east.

Not before then.

I'm Jewish and stating the obvious. Don't call me a nazi.

It is amazing how one little article can bring out so many anti semites. The postings here belong on a neo nazi site. The attacks on Israel as being greedy and stealing land are just more of the same old anti semitic diatribes we are used to hearing. So here's a thought, why don't one of you anti Israeli posters open the bible or the koran and read about Israel as a country 2000 years ago. Get real, its our land that was stolen not some made up bunch of arabs that in the 20th cetury want to call themselves palestinians whatever that is.

But aside from the historical inaccurancies, the bottom line is that it is arab rejectionism that prevents peace in the middle east not Israel. In fact, Israel made offers to Arafat and Abbas to return 99% of the west bank and a portion of East Jerusalem and that wasn't good neough. After 60 years of a stalemate the arabs refuse to budge one inch. Their demand for the right of return is so insane that it defies any response other than get theraphy.

As for the Goldstone Report, I read it and it is a disgrace as Goldstone is. it devotes 5 paragraphs to the 8,000 rockets fired by hamas into Israel. It relies on heresay reports that were given with Hamas reprsentitives present, not one report would be admissable in a court of law. The suggestion that it is anything more than a tool of the Muslim UN to harass Israel is deranged.

I am quite confident his post will bring some nifty anti semitic comments so bring them on. We are used to it, we hear everyday on arabic TV and radio. But before you do, get the history part correct. Your opinions are yours even if they are biased, anti semeitcc and build on lies. I guess ignorance is bliss for you guys

I watched the coverage of the so-called War on Gaza everyday on Al Jazeera. The Israelis warned the civilian population to leave their homes on many accasions during those days of their merciless assault but the Gazans had nowhere to flee to.

The writers of this article must be heartless individuals to say that the IDF (which is a misnomer if ever there was one) "clearly succeeded in minimising civilian deaths" when so many little children were killed. Richard Goldstone is a man of integrity who has chosen justice over partisanship and if he accuses Israeli armed forces of deliberately targeting civilians as he has, then there needs to be an independent enquiry.
AS Edmund Burke said "All that is necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing…

Shall we stop looking like idiots?

Israel doesn't want peace.
ISRAEL WANTS PALESTINE.

Has from day one, started it's terrorisn and take over on day one, Irgun, Begin, the Stern Gang.

They still say so, out loud. And keep on grabbing. Oh please. Jews are Jews.

WHO, exactly, are you trying to fool?

A simple message to Israel:

Don't use Hamas' rockets to justify your despair. Not when you're bringing it upon yourself.

You refuse to come to terms with the Palestinians, because you will not end your expansion into the disputed territory, or bargain with what you have taken.

If you want to stop the rockets; if you want to live in peace with the Palestinians, and the region; if you want respect from the world of nations; if you want a moral rationale; you can have it all. A treaty, an accord, won't be perfect--there will continue to be challenges--but it will be better, much better, than what you have now.

And you can stop feeling sorry for yourself, at last.

Read Palestineremembered.org, start at the very beginning of this outrageous land grab and consider who started it.
All of our troubles with the Middle East today have their genesis in our support for Israel.
Demonizing either side, especially the Palestinians in America, is as absurd as the vicious lies that the Nazis spread about Jews in order to justify the Holocaust.
History is repeating itself and this time, of all peoples, the Jews in order to justify their brutal treatment of the displaced Palestinians.
Americans are have shed enough blood on behalf of this ongoing conflict. The life of one American lost to this cause is one life too many. Only propaganda and blackmail keeps the US involved in this part of the world.

I am sick and tired of these people . Every day for sixty years. Greedy, Obnoxious, Money-hungry thieves.

Posted by: orionexpress

______________________________________

Which people are you talking about? Palestinians or Jews?

How can Palestine continue to lob missiles into Israel and expect the rest of the world to believe their agenda is peace?

More delusional, uncompromising stupidity representative of religious fanatics of all flavors.

"In 1967, there were zero Israelis living on the West Bank and today there are over 200,000."

And why do you suppose that is? Hint: It's called ethnic cleansing. In 1948 there were thousands of Jews living in "the West Bank", and had been for 3000 years. When Jordan conquered "the West Bank" it expelled all Jews. That area has been devoid of Jews for only 19 years of 3000.

Isn't it odd that all the grave markers that Jordan dug up and used to build latrines and to pave roads had Hebrew writing on them? I didn't know Arabs used to speak and read and write Hebrew, before they adopted Arabic in 1948.

Oh, but I keep forgetting: ethnic cleansing, when practiced against Jews, is right and just.

Another funny thing: What kind of name for an area is "the West Bank"? It was meant as a temporary name till a lasting one could be dreamed up. For centuries it was called Judea and Samaria, but Jordan couldn't keep calling land it had illegally invaded, conquered, and annexed by a name that clearly shows the Jewish people's claim to it. (Hint: Why are Jews called Jews? Because we come from Judea. Why is Judea called Judea? Because it is the land of Judah, one of Jacob's sons.)

The fact is that Arabs want a vast and unbroken Arab land across the Middle East. They can't stand it that there is one tiny non-Arab spot smack dab in the middle of it. Israel is the size of New Jersey, but that's too much for the Arabs. And it's too much for other Israel bashers too. There is no spot on the earth small enough to which to exile us, for those who choose to hate Jews.

As long as Arabs hate Jews and vice versa, this is all mandible masturbation. One can only hope, through education and vacating the uncompromising nature of their fore-bearers, future generations will overcome their Abrahamic religious agenda to exterminate the other.

70% of Jordan's residents are Palestinians, so the Palestinians in Judea and Samaria must return to their homeland whichi is Jordan . Egypt should take over Gaza and take responsibility for the terrorists and barbarians there, as it was before the Six Day War. I'm sure within a few days there will not be a singel terrorist, because when the Arabs slaughter Arabs, there is no any human rights organization to interfere and write reports. This is the best solution for the Middle East.

On the second anniversary of the Hamas military takeover of Gaza, PA (Fatah) TV broadcast a public Fatah event held in the presence of senior Fatah leaders, which focused on intense vilification of Hamas,

Warning - the video contains graphic material. Whoever has a weak heart it is not recommended to see this video,
http://www.pmw.org.il/Bulletins_June2009.htm#b180609

This included the showing of a graphic video of Hamas members brutally beating a Fatah member in Gaza. The screams of the victim can be heard in the video, along with others calling "Allahu Akbar" (Allah is Great).

The Fatah moderator introduced the video with the following words:
"Hamas's name is written on every arm and leg
which was crushed by their [Hamas's] acts of terror."

As part of its promotion of suicide terrorism, the PA has repeatedly taught its population the Islamic tradition that shahids (people who dies for Allah) will receive numerous heavenly rewards, including 72 (or 70 according to other sources) "Dark Eyed" Maidens of Paradise.

These teachings have been seen in numerous televised religious sermons, as well as in a music video broadcast hundreds of times on PA TV during the last three years, which shows a shahid arriving in Paradise and being greeted by the Maidens

There is even evidence that Palestinian men have seen this goal of marrying the 72 Maidens as reason to aspire death as a shahid. In a TV broadcast, a Palestinian mother of a man named Abdallah, who died in clashes with Israel, explains her personal acceptance of her son's death as a shahid, because it was his wish to marry the "Dark Eyed" Maidens of Paradise rather than an earthly woman.

One of the early sources for this Islamic tradition of the 72 Maidens, according to the official PA daily, Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, is cited in an a literary analysis of Muhammad's language. A Hadith [prophetic tradition] describes the rewards of the "prophets, the righteous and the Sshahids":

"[Muhammad said in the Hadith explaining the words of the Koran promising 'comfortable dwellings in the Garden of Eden,' There is] a palace of pearls in the Garden of Eden and in it seventy courts of ruby... And in each court [there are] seventy houses of green emerald stone. In every house, seventy beds. On every bed, seventy mattresses of every color and on every mattress a woman."

"The style of the Prophet [in this Hadith] ... is intended to fill Muslims with desire for the Garden of Eden ... to be worthy of it, because... only three dwell there: prophets, righteous and shahids."
[Al-Hayat Al-Jadida,)

Mother: My son aspired to shahada in order to marry the Maidens of Paradise.

Mother of Abdallah on PA TV

"He would always dream of shahada, it was his first and last goal in life... I told him: 'Dear, we all want to be shahids...'

"He said: 'In this entire world I can't think of anyone to marry... I want to marry the Dark Eyed.' I said: 'If these are his thoughts I wish for him shahada.'"

http://www.pmw.org.il/Palestinian%20society.htm#darkeyed

When the shahid meets his Maker, all his sins are forgiven from the first gush of blood. He is exempted from the torments of the grave; he sees his place in Paradise, he is shielded from the great shock, and marries 72 Dark Eyed. He is a heavenly advocate for 70 members of his family, on his head is placed a crown of honor, one stone of which is worth more than all there is in this world."

Palestinian Authority leaders and media have repeatedly encouraged young Palestinians to seek shahada - death for Allah, using a variety of persuasive tactics. In sermons, discussions and music videos still broadcast on PA TV, young people are indoctrinated to pursue 'martyrdom' for its "sweetness" and the rewards it brings. This latest example is another reinforcement of the repeated message; romantic and utopic portrayals of the heavenly rewards of martyrdom.

It is an indication of how the PA uses these traditions to promote its war against Israel.

It does so by reinforcing the lesson for Palestinian youth that death is not to be feared; rather, they should actively seek shahada as a duty and for its many rewards.

Samuel Huntington writes it so aptly: Islam has bloody borders. Israel is located precisely on that border. This tiny country is situated on the fault line of jihad, frustrating Islam’s territorial advance. Israel is facing the front lines of jihad, like Kashmir, Kosovo, the Philippines, Southern Thailand, Darfur in Sudan, Lebanon, and Aceh in Indonesia. Israel is simply in the way. The same way West-Berlin was during the Cold War.

The war against Israel is not a war against Israel. It is a war against the West.. It is jihad. Israel is simply receiving the blows that are meant for all of the west.

If there would have been no Israel, Islam-ic imperialism would have found other venues to release its energy and its desire for conquest. Thanks to Israeli parents who send their children to the army and lay awake at night, parents in Europe and America can sleep well and dream, unaware of the dangers looming.

If Israel were, God for-bid, to go down, it would not bring any solace to the West. It would not mean that Muslims would all of a sudden change their behavior, and accept the values of the West. On the contrary, the end of Israel would give enormous encouragement to the forces of Islam. They would, and rightly so, see the demise of Israel as proof that the West is weak, and doomed. The end of Israel would not mean the end of the problems with Islam, but only the beginning. It would mean the start of the final battle for world domination. If they can get Israel, they can get everything. There-fore, it is not that the West has a stake in Israel. It is Israel.

95% of contemporary Muslims are exposed to anti-Semitic teachings. every Muslim learns chapters from the Quran that those who have incurred divine wrath are the Jews, and those who are astray are Christians. What is more problematic is that the average person learns this chapter and its interpretation between the ages of 5-8. And we know that things learned at this stage of life become ingrained, almost to the point of being in one's DNA.

Allah is our goal, the prophet our model, the Koran our constitution, the Jihad our path and death for the sake of Allah the loftiest of our wishes."

In a leading article entitled "Industry of Death," which was to become famous, Hassan al-Banna explained to a wider public his concept of jihad-a concept in which the term Industry of Death denotes not something horrible but an ideal. He wrote: "to a nation that perfects the industry of death and which knows how to die nobly, God gives proud life in this world and eternal grace in the life to come."
The Koran enjoins believers to love death more than life. Unfortunately, he argues, Muslims are in thrall to a "love of life." "The illusion which had humiliated us is no more than the love of worldly life and the hatred of death." As long as the Muslims do not replace their love of life with the love of death as required by
the Quran, their future is hopeless.
Only those who become proficient in the "art of death" can prevail. "So, prepare yourself to do a great deed. Be keen on dying and life will be granted to you, so work towards a noble death and you will win complete happiness.

Hamas it is a movement that advocates Jihad as al Qaeda.
Long since, the Israelis have lost their trust,in Arabs and Moslems.
Most of the Palestinians are terrorists and criminals that supporting terror and violence.

ccnl1 wrote:

A good start to the road for peace would be realize that the Jews are not god's chosen people and that the OT is mostly fiction and that Judaism has no historic claims on the land. (ditto for the Muslim claims for the same land).
-------------
Neither Jews nor Muslims believe they are "god's chosen people." I have studied both religions, married a Muslim, have Muslim relatives and very close friends. I have traveled extensively in Muslim countries and have never heard anything like this.

From the countless Jews I've known from all over the world, from rabbis, academics, I have never heard anything like this.
-------------
Only the Catholics and Protestants say they are "God's people." Priests and ministers say the Catholics and ministers, respectively, are God's people and they make this pronouncement ad nauseum. They are God's people in churches, revival meetings, megachurches, on television, and probably in front of the mirror.
-----------------------------
To get into the secular historic, not religious histories and competing claims for this tiny bit of land would take months, which I do not have.

I, therefore, leave it to CCNL, one of the Catholics' God's people to explain the last two thousand years following the barbarous activities of his Roman ancestors.
---------------------
And, again, I think we must get out of Israel's face. They do not need our crippling "help." The Israeli people do not like us. (Wonder why.)

As for us, the US can gather intelligence in the region All by Itself.

playa_brotha:

As far as i remember, Israel is the only nation in the 21st century to be accused of committing war crimes.
------------
Weed'll do that to you. Try to cut back a bit.

But one does have to wonder why the US which has genocided nearly two million people has not been accused of war crimes. Kind of frightening, really.

A good start to the road for peace would be realize that the Jews are not god's chosen people and that the OT is mostly fiction and that Judaism has no historic claims on the land. (ditto for the Muslim claims for the same land).

As far as i remember, Israel is the only nation in the 21st century to be accused of committing war crimes. These two fools need to shut up. Israel is not the innocent victim here.

What I don't understand is why the Netanyahu government is quibbling over the difference between 99% of a freeze and 100% of a freeze. They should just agree to the freeze, complete and total, but contingent on some reciprocation, such as recognition of Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state with a certain period of time. If the quid pro quo doesn't materialize, then go back to building. It seems to me they are willing to lose the war in order to avoid losing a meaningless battle.

Given the history of the Jews, why can Israel never bring itself to say to the Palestinians: "We understand how you feel. We've been there ourselves. We were desperate. We were almost wiped out because we had no land of our own. We understand that you were displaced, and we recognized that you too need and deserve a land of your own. Will you let us help you achieve that? What compromises, what sharing, what can we do to bring you some justice too?"

Gentlemen:

Assuming you have read my memo, please read this thread. I am hopeful that no comments will be deleted, certain, given past experience, that more of this kind will be posted here.

If you have any doubts about the value of those for whom Israelis have died gathering intelligence, further compromising itself in the region, scrutinize these posts.

Again, it is time for the US to leave Israel alone. The Israeli people, whether Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, or other, do NOT WANT the US in its face, do not need US "blood money" as one Sudanese Israeli put it to me.

If you want to help anyone, start with the three million exiled Jews from Middle Eastern nations. You cannot undo the harm done to us. You cannot change the fact that, in my case, when a child, I witnessed our family friend, Ismael, dragged from our home by the Iranian Revolutionary Guard and murdered in front of me. His blood spattered on my clothes.

Get us exiled three million our property, get us security, get us the right to return to Iran, Tunesia, Iraq, Yemen, Egypt, Syria, etc.

LET ISRAEL ALONE. The Israelis don't want the US, are beginning to hate us. We pay taxes. We have a highly developed security apparatus. The US government can protect Americans from terrorism, gather intelligence All By Itself.

Soemtimes you just don't know where to begin.

The Protocols of the Elders of Zion was proven to be a bogus document years ago.

It's time for Jews to stop playing the "everybody hates us" card.

They are not the only victims of genocide -just the ones with the best PR.

They use thier faith like so many others, to justify their demands, their manipulations, their actions.

This is not to say the Palestinians are not equally complicit in this Middle Eastern mess. They must assuredly are.

Both sides are like two children in a sandbox fighting over the same pile of sand.

Neither will concede to the other.

The fight, like so many other regional disputes around the world will not end because we want it to. It will take generations to work hard to undo the sins and crimes of their collective fathers.

Shame on both of their houses.

Neither acts within the tenants of their faith.

Israel is wrong - Palestine is wrong.

It is a shame that these people of a center against the brutal racism of the nazi become themselfes advocates of the brutal racism against the palestinians.Remember that all people have equal rights and no one should claim that he has more rights than the others because God gave him these rights

The stuff here

and in many other places just recently,

IS SO OVER THE TOP, so bizarre, that it sounds desperate.

And rightly so. There needs to be a lot of
Israeli/Jewish/zionist propoganda, quickly,

because, as international polls show, some taken by the ADL,

the whole world, and especially Europeans and Americans.

blame American JEWS for the blowup of the world economy. Lots of people are ruined and homeless, out of work and frantic.

And it's not getting better.
But I for one doubt that a few rabbis saying ugly things about Palestine will

soothe the hatred forming. AGain, it's not getting better.

And the offense herein is just offensive, not defensive. And it is disgusting.

It is important for all sides to imagine the truth of the other, but this essay is a disgrace to the notion of dialogue about faith here, just as is Wiesenthal Center's ctd effort to build its museum in East Jerusalem in a location that will cause anger and conflict for years to come:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1235410717617&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&SearchParam=wiesenthal%20center
Too many misleading statements here to unravel -- the very tone is arrogant and hostile to any who don't agree. Me'thinks it's time for new leadership, for whom WW II is not the misplaced analogy.

Gentlemen:

I have always greatly respected the Wiesenthal Center's work to combat racism against all peoples. I continue to wonder at the fact that Simon Weisenthal and a few other Jews were alone among those seeking justice for the genocided Roma ("Gypsies"), who, by the way, were Roman Catholic.

That said, I strongly believe that future "negotiations" would be pointless and that it is high time for the US to do what the Israeli people want, viz, get out of Israel's face. I'm speaking of the people, not the government.

Had the Palestinians not attacked Sharon on the Temple Mount/Dome of the Rock, not begun another intifada, Palestine would, by now, have been a state for years. Israel had negotiatied with the US supported Chairman Arrafat in the midst of terrorist attacks, occasionally several times per week, which he was obviously orchestrating. Yet somehow the Israeli government, perhaps, because the people so longed for peace, managed to deceive them.

The people are much less naive now; efforts to keep information from them have been less successful. This very left-leaning country swung sharply to the right. Netanyahu won over the enormously popular Livni. Although the left remains, it cannot swing the moderates. Every day there is another development that saps hope, whether it be shiploads of arms, more rocket attacks, or something else.

Moreover, in addition to the Abbas problems you name, there is corruption, the inability of Abbas to prevent Hamas soldiers from firing on his troops. There is no one with whom to negotiate; there never was, and Israelis now know this.

At present, we "give" Israel 2.7 billion per annum, which, as you know, is a fraction of their GNP. In exchange for this "gift," we force them to sell weapons to dangerous nations, among them, Egypt, which then sells them to Palestinians to use against Israeli Jews, Protestants, Muslims, Catholics, Buddhists, et al. Israel, as you know, is a very diverse society.

Continues

Continued:
With the weapons we force the Israelis to sell to Egypt, we also give them, and in "them" I include naturalized Sudanese Israeli citizens, the privilege of watching Sudanese refugees fleeing to Israel gunned down, generally, in the back, by Egyptian soldiers. And then we have our president, unfazed by slaughtered Sudanese, deciding to "conciliate" with the indicted war criminal Sudanese leader, fearing to alienate China, i.e., compromise "trade." Israelis know this.

But let us be honest: What we have always most used Israel for is intelligence gathering in the region, which has cost hundreds of Israeli lives, and which has further compromised Israel in the region.

If all this were not bad enough, and it is, at the same time we give money to Israel, we give the fascist Mubarak, universally loathed in the region, 2 billion dollars per annum. That would be the Mubarak who beats up on Christians, refuses to allow Palestinian Egyptian children to go to school, etc. Mubarak, in exchange for the 2 billion dollars per annum, puts the money in his pockets or gives it to his cronies, while Egyptians are literally starving to death.

Israelis want out from under us, regardless of what their government may say. At present, it is against the law to demonstrate against the United States. Those who attempt it are arrested, brutally. Nice.

When I was there in June, I, an obvious brown Jew, was met with hostility everywhere I went once people knew I was American. Israeli Jews, Muslims, Christians--all want us out.

It is time for the US to leave Israel alone.
Israel does not need us financially or in any other way. AS for the US, We pay taxes. We have a highly developed security apparatus. Let the US gather intelligence All By Itself.

The pogrom against the Palestinian people and the lies used to justify it are blights on Israel and saying so is just an echo of that ancient, oft-repeated plea for the people of Israel to return to the path of righteousness.

When (Ahab, the leader of Israel) saw Elijah, he said to him, "Is that you, you troubler of Israel?"

"I have not made trouble for Israel," Elijah replied. "But you and your father's family have. You have abandoned the LORD's commands and have followed the Baals."
-- 1 Kings 18

I find it more than a little shocking that the authors would engage in such moral equivalency as to compare "operation cast lead at everyone" to the Allied efforts to liberate Europe from the Nazi yoke. Reading drek like this, I too despair of all peace efforts. But as Yeats wrote, "The best lack all conviction, while the worst are filled with passionate intensity..."

After 3,300 rockets were fired from Hamas into Israeli communities during 2008 alone, the IDF belatedly responded with a military operation last winter targeting Hamas' terrorist infrastructure. It looks that the writers of this article are biased. They forgot that Israel is ocupping Palestina by military force. So attacks by paletinians are legitimate. It is like partisans in occupied Italy blow a Nazi convoy. The case is similar.

Of course the Jews are God's chosen people, just ask 'em! Oh, and they put it in writing,too! Too bad literacy isn't as impressive as it was in ancient times.

Israel complains about the outcome of the Goldstone report. That complaint is based on the fact and the reality that Israel made a political decision not to participate in the Goldstone report process. It is a bit like being charged with an offence in court and not turning up to defend yourself. Crying afterwards about the process is highlighting the fact that Israel made the wrong choice.

Also relying on 5,000 year old books and God's word to take over someone else's land - please in this day and age, it makes no rational sense to sput such "logic2 or fairy tales.

"But this won't happen until Christians, Jews, and decent Muslims stand up to the current politicizing and perversion of its history."

It also won't happen until all parties stop making the little jibes that show their real feelings about where blame lies.

The suggestion here that all Christians and Jews are "decent" but only some Muslims are reflects precisely the kind of attitude that repeatedly undercuts the possibility of peace in the Middle East.

It's a small thing, but it speaks volumes. For shame, Rabbi Cooper and Dr. Brackman.

In 1967, there were zero Israelis living on the West Bank and today there are over 200,000. Another hundred thousand live around land permanently annexed by Israel in or adjacent to Jerusalem.
I don't know what there is in the mentality of the Israelis which fails to see this as wrong. Most of the people who feel this way are not literal believers in the scriptures. They just want to take it because they think they earned that right in a war in 1967.
Agreed, it is equally wrong for the Arab countries to fail to recognize a nation that is accepted in the UN and backed by the US. But every time, except two times, when the Arabs wanted to negotiate a treaty, Israel has refused to do so, or has not negotiated in good faith. Israel negotiated Camp David with good faith, under Jimmy Carter. Israel negotiated at Oslo in good faith, under James Baker and the first President Bush. Two leaders paid for this with their lives; one by Arab extremists and one by Jewish extremists. Two other leaders were one-term presidents, after a third party candidate suddenly emerged to take away votes from an electoral majority. Based on this record and the total stranglehold that Israel has on the American Congress, no other US president has dared to pressure Israel to make peace.
So, in the end, Israel will become an apartheid state and a nuclear-armed rogue power, within about twenty years time.

Does this idiot rabbi REALLY think
anybody will believe

the truly stupid story the Israelis have put out for years? The Poor Jews want soooo much not to take over the
West Bank as fast as they can...

they were SOOOO kind in Gaza, none of this phorphrous bombs for childn...and the stories of cluster bombs for the children of Lebanon were just stuff, too.

And it runs under the headline of Israeli Despair."

They REALLY do think the world is dumb.

PS. The Jews started taking oover hte west bank before they'd eally movedin. The Stern Gana, Irgun, the whole bit.

And to this day. And we're supposed to swallow this stuff.

The World Is Fed Up. It Has to Stop, and it will. History affirms.

A good start to the road for peace would be to give up the silly notion that Jews are god's chosen people and that the OT is mostly fiction and Israel has no historic claims on the land. (ditto for the Islamic claims for the same land).

The following should help:

Abraham founder/father of three major religions was either the embellishment of the lives of three different men or a
mythical character as was mythical Moses, the "Tablet-Man" who talked to burning bushes and made much magic in Egypt.

Many of the 1.5 million Conservative Jews and many of their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20E1EFE35540C7A8CDDAA0894DA404482