qrsi

I know that you did not direct your post to me but I was wondering, have you ever asked yourself the question: Is this all there is?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

garoth

You wrote, "Nevertheless, these two kinds of religion - that which is self=centered and self-serving, and that which is other-centered and other-serving, are always present in the world - and in any religious belief system."

This is true and as I have written: God is a searcher of hearts and minds not of religious affiliations or lack thereof and It is important what one does and why one does it and what one knows.

I have also written that God Is One and yet a Trinity and that I have met the Trinity and for that matter I have also met satan.

God looks at the person, not the "label" and God has a Plan and has had His Plan since before creation and God's Plan Will come to Fruition.

See you all in the Kingdom.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Ms. Woodruff - answer me this: Why do you need something to "shield me from the confusion, ambivalence, prejudice and fear that the real world triggers in me--?"

What is the cause of your "confusion, ambivalence, prejudice and fear" apparently coming from living in the real world?

And what makes you "need" to choose between "religion" and "faith" to "hide from myself as well as from reality?"

You sound really messed up to me. Don't you have anything better to do? (I get a charge out of reading the garbage that's published in the On Faith blog, but you sound like you need help.)

adfa

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sadf

One meaning of faith is 'belief that is not based on proof.'

In the higher realms of Spirituality, to have gnosis or know God is based on realization or inner knowledge, and that transcends or goes beyond faith.

The faith you seem to indicate is exoteric (outward) or basic religious everyday faith. More like a belief, based on the mind believing something. That is why you have issues with the inner and outer world and live as two and not one.

This kind of faith is then suseptable to change, because something else comes along and your belief changes and a renewed faith in the new thing is activated.

This kind of faith is more like hope.

Better to understand oneself, breathe and meditate, pray and through this come to an understanding that is true but not entirely based on faith.

Judaism's response to that question has always been, "love God, and your neighbor as yourself." In Christian faith, we honor the building of the Kingdom of God - which is much the same. The question is, I suppose, is religion that is self-serving "faith?" I remember, in seminary, a fellow coming as a guest speaker who claimed that "people choose whatever happens to them." If we are rich, wealthy, etc. it is because we have chosen it. If, on the other hand, we are victimized, poor, etc., it is also because we have chosen it. So those who have have no obligation to those who do not - those who do not have chosen what they have.

Needless to say, I told him that it was a bunch of c*** (and got in trouble for it). Nevertheless, these two kinds of religion - that which is self=centered and self-serving, and that which is other-centered and other-serving, are always present in the world - and in any religious belief system. Christianity has Joel Osteen and other purveyors of the "prosperity Gospel;" it also has M.L. King, Thomas Merton, and others who live for the sake of others. I think it is the same in all religions.

Anybody who can call God as the "great Whatever" surely does not know God and should be better off shutting off her mouth otherwise, we would only hear GARBAGE.

haveaheart

You wrote, "My point here is that humans themselves created the idea that they are formed in their god's image. And, since they formed their god, as well, the whole thing is an exercise in circular logic."

Your "point" is that you "know" that "humans themselves created the idea" but the fact is, is that you do not know.

One could say that you "believe" but not that you "know" according to what I believe your definition of "know" is, is your definition of "know" that which is provable?

Isn't it even "scientific" and "logical" that one can not prove a negative, as some seem to call this?

God proved to me that God Is and as I have previously mentioned, I can not prove that God Is but God Will in God's Time.

By the way, as I have previously mentioned, there seem to be quite a few that know virtually nothing else about God except for God's Name.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

"Could be us not living up to that 'Image' that is the 'supreme evidence of human arrogance.'"

thomasbaum,

My point here is that humans themselves created the idea that they are formed in their god's image. And, since they formed their god, as well, the whole thing is an exercise in circular logic.

"I couldn't disagree more. If your faith does not stand rational examination, I suggest another."

edbyronadams,

Then clearly my faith wouldn't work for you. But because it's mine, it doesn't need to be rationally examined by you or anyone else to evaluate its credibility or to assess whether it is effective as a guiding moral code for me.

edbyronadams

You wrote, "My own requires twice daily prayers"

Is this because you feel it is necessary or is it because someone else said it?

By "feel", I do not necessarily mean some "emotional" thing even tho that could be part of it but that you have come to this "conclusion" not that others have told you that this "conclusion" is a "fit's all" for everyone.

You also wrote, "Merely believing without practice that requires some discipline is pretty empty belief."

Should this "discipline" be one that is imposed on another or should it be something that uniquely fits the "relationship" that one has with another whether that is person to person or person to God?

God didn't create us to be "clones" and God didn't become One of us for all of us to be the same.

We are are "equal" in God's Eyes but we are not all the same.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

edbyronadams

You wrote, "Merely doing what you feel is right without any disciplined yardstick for correct action is egoism rampant and rife with the possibility of self delusion."

Could be but not necessarily so and whose "disciplined yardstick" are you speaking of?

By the way, doing what one "feels is right" is not necessarily the same as doing what one "feels is right for oneself".

There is such a thing as "self-discipline" and ultimately all discipline that does not come from a choice that a person has freely made is nothing more than coercion.

We have "free will" and we are constantly making choices and if our choices are nothing more than following a set of "rules" imposed on us rather than making a decision based on whatever situation we find ourself in than we ignore our "dignity" as unique human beings and "neglect" our responsibility as rational, thinking, feeling human beings that have been given the ability to do more than just react.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

haveaheart

You wrote, "I've always felt that the claim of God "creating us in his likeness" was the supreme evidence of human arrogance."

Could be us not living up to that "Image" that is the "supreme evidence of human arrogance".

You wrote, "After all, it has been humans, throughout history, who have written or otherwise recorded the religious tracts that make this claim."

Who else would have written it?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

blah blah blah

"Transcendence is at the other end of the continuum from "disciplined thought.""

I couldn't disagree more. If your faith does not stand rational examination, I suggest another. My own requires twice daily prayers, at a minimum, which is a time for self reflection and reflection on the connection with others and the environment. Merely believing without practice that requires some discipline is pretty empty belief.

"Taking faith without committing to one faith is an exercise in ignoring thousands of years of disciplined thought and practice concerning the nature of the transcendent."

The key word here is "discipline." It is the nature of all organized religion to instill "discipline" as a means of social control.

Transcendence is at the other end of the continuum from "disciplined thought."

"There is an old saying: God created us in God's Image and Likeness and we have been trying to return the favor ever since."

Thomas Baum,

I've always felt that the claim of God "creating us in his likeness" was the supreme evidence of human arrogance. After all, it has been humans, throughout history, who have written or otherwise recorded the religious tracts that make this claim.

Oooopps. Correction:

Fact: Around 632 CE/AD, th same-Year when Mr. MUHAMMAD died THAT; The "ARABOUSES" (Desert via 'Allah-Akbar' Bedouin Invaders from the South) Conquered GAZA of North (Went To Them, uninvited; because Arabs saw easy-pickings, vulnerable they were) & so Mass Converted them.

Fact: Around 637 AD/CE JERUSALEM Was then invaded by both ARABous's & Assisted by GAZAi's (Wild Ex-Baal Worshiper's whom suddenly hath converted to "MY RELiGION" via ALLAH (G-D?) performing Jihad ).

Fact: That very Same Year 637 CE, Arabi Jordanians & GAZA-ian's Invaded the "Zoroastrian" PERSIAN's (Who had 1st "MONO-THEO system). Wild Gazans et al "MASS MURDERED (Holocausedit) Millions of them & Converted them & Diaspora'd many more. Yet they did a good job of Destroying "HISTORY" (Invasions & Atrocities/Barbarianism) unlike the stupid Europeans et al.

FACT: Around 639 AD/CE AEGYPT IS INVADED. Imagine; The Father/Mother Land of the "MIXED MULTiTUDES" (Note: This is what a "JEW" means, less Circumcision Ritual/initiation & Marriage/Religion is via the Lady's).

FACT: Around 691 CE/AD The GAZASTANi's & CO., Helped build , on Top Of King Solomons Mount/Turf The Illegal "AL AQSA" Gold Domed MOSQUE! (note: Today Barbarians King ABDULLAH 2 of JORDON Holds "THE-KEY" to the Gates of JERU). And SAUDi King ABDULLAH 1 holds THE-KEY" to Ex-Pagan MECCA gate/doors. Wow, Whats Next?

FACT: Around 1006 CE/AD, ex-Pagan worshiping Ottoman/Turk, suddenly converted to "ALLAH" & his AKBAR, that they helped The Arabous INVADE EUROPE.

Fact: Talking about "STOLEN LAND"!?? Note: Islami Pakistan & Islamic Bangladesh (a Recent Occurrence) are On Massive Lands that was wrongly Stolen (under ISLAm pretexts) from Sweet sweet INDIA et al!

Note: This Is NOt a CARTOON!

R I C K T A F T: (part 1 of 2)

Let "HiS/HERSTORY" Be Our Jury" (Judge & Witness).

i [WE] spent many hours jack-hammering on 'wiki' & some. Not to mention many moons trecking/traveling around & around this MIRACULOUS place. So, Here are some 'Key Words' to like at ISLAMO-FASCIST & ARABNESS & KEMALism & PAN TURKism & AKP & FETULLAH GULEN, KURDISTAN, TURKiSTAN, HAMAS et al. * AND Please Understand that the roots of "REliGIOUS-APATHY" is JEALOUSY.

Interestingly, when mentioning "GAZA" During PHARAOH atimes THAT; They refereed to Baal-Worshiping (Practiced Child & Adult RAM Sacrifices; See King Solomon Many Wives who practiced such "ABOMINATION", in bible/Chumash) "Canaanites" (now called HAMASTANites or PALi'S) as "LOW LiFES FROM LOW LANDS". They was scattered & embedded all up in Syria/Hajj/Lebonon (see: Ottoman/Transjordan) etc..

Fact: Around 532 CE/AD when Mr. MUHAMMAD died THAT; The "ARABOUSES" (Desert 'Allah-Akbar' Bedouin Invaders from the South) Conquered GAZA of North (Went To Them, uninvited; because Arabs saw easy-pickings, vulnerable they were) & so Mass Converted them. Even MOSES mentions his Son ISHMAEL (His Concubine-mom HAGAR, is a Canaanite not Pali) as going to be "WiLD..", not to mention ESAU.

Here is; i, Me, My, OUR DIAGNOSIS:

It turn's out (I stopped being in Denial) That, Holyi NEBULAE-Built, S.pace-S.hip-EARTH, aka S.S. GEOiD, S.S. GAiA, S.S. TELLUSng something is crawling with many Human's ** Whom Reveal to US {APOCALYPTARiAN's, no longer PRE-APOCALYPTARiAMS} as having Acute "PRE-APOCALTPIC SiNDROME" & severe "RELiGIOUS JEALOUSY PSYCHOSIS." There is no Other Words to explain this Int'l Mass Hypnotic Islami-Trance of some 1.4 Billion People going ON now. Hence WE [i} need to turn this stupor of a fountain, OFF.

Part 2 of 2

"IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WiTH "inheritance." ISLAM is a relatively New Phenomenon/a, except for the Peaceful Abrahamic Cousins; The MORMONS (4th Abe Branch) et al. Soo, The "iSLAMIC-SCARE" is Real. WE [i] have a HUMAN-RiGHT to experience Reality not Delusion based on what The "4th ESTATE" feeds US of which i [WE] art Righteous to call it "iSLAMO/a-PHOBIA". That "Flotilla" {Hate Boat, not Love Boat'} debacle & Islami AL TAQIYAH Pretext & Trick is a good Example Aye?
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* Stupid-People are Dangerous to selves,not only US. This is what The Holy "SECULAR-EMPiRE" is up against! Unfortunate the Future-War (if any) is to save them from themselves (+ US). Example: ALL those "PIRATES" Of THE INDIAN {Somali} OCEAN" that hath been captured; are known to have the LOWEST I.Q.'s Of most Humans. (if any). Thats why the Russki's (w/out the Bruskies} decided to let the captured 'Jacker's go, on a rubber raft 300 mile off Somali Coast, because in a Court Of Law they will be rendered "Low I.Q." folk because pleading "INSANITY" in a case of "STUPIDITY" andRussia Criminal or Even Civil Law/court or except for "Maritime-Law" don't have such "Stupidity' Laws to adjuducate/proceed. Ho Ho Ho.

** See Article entitled, "Team Finds up to 4% of Human Genome Comes From Extinct Species, the First Evidence It Mated With Homo Sapiens " see:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703686304575228380902037988.html?mod=WSJ_Smartest

Taking faith without committing to one faith is an exercise in ignoring thousands of years of disciplined thought and practice concerning the nature of the transcendent. It also allows faith takers an easy out from any demands that a specific faith might make upon them. Faith without any discipline has questionable value since we live in a WYSIWYG world. Actions here and now that affect the world we live in are what matter both from the observable and unobservable effects. Merely doing what you feel is right without any disciplined yardstick for correct action is egoism rampant and rife with the possibility of self delusion.

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Behold O' ROCK; O' SABRA/iSRAELite NATION!
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Hear O' Kafir-Nations, Help Contain Nazi-ISLAMi!
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DEATH to THEOCRACY in Mid-East & Elsewhere!
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D-E-A-T-H -- TO "AL TAQIYAH" (infiltration of)
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LEAVE THE SABRAites Alone, O’ Jealous-Islami!
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O'Blind "SATANIC-VERSUS" Lovers of ISLAMi Umah!
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LET OUR “A-B-R-A-H-A-M” Religion Go, O' Hijackers!
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D-E-A-T-H to "WAHHABi'S & AYATOLLAH'S" Monarchy!

Fuk Jealous-TURK Jerks, HAMAS, HEZBOLLAH & CO.!
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H-E-L-P Stop anti-KURDiSH In Nazi-TURKEY!
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H-E-L-P Stop anti-ALEVi In KEMAList-TURKEY!
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H-E-L-P All None-Islamics In Racist TURKEY!!
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H-E-L-P The AHMADiYYA People In TURKEY too!
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.........PS: WE L-O-V-E "Martha Woodruff" & PBS!

I've spent 55 years immersed in history. My interest has gone from what to why. History is the story of human nature on a global scale. We have always believed in a deity du jour no matter it's dogma.

Then one day I watched a nature documentary about life among the chimps. In a chimp family everyone has to mollify the big mama du jour. They punish anyone who makes her nervous. I realized that humans do the same thing.

I'm convinced that our need to believe in a god is genetic. I think there is research indicating that it could be. Love of mom can easily become love of country and/or love of god. It has the same source somewhere in our genome.

The one deity we all worship is ME. We all know what's best. Having faith is not an option. What we have faith in is. We can't all be right. We CAN all be wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cc_lp1o1z5o

Martha Woodroof

You wrote, "What do you see as the major obligation(s) of faith?"

I would think that it would be to "get past" the "obligation(s) of faith" and embrace the gift of faith.

There is a big difference between "being obligated" and freely wanting.

Should one look at it as being a slave to God or a friend of God?

A relationship with God is about the here and now but if that is all that it is about then we are not only "shortchanging" God but we are "shortchanging" that which God can do with us.

There is an old saying: God created us in God's Image and Likeness and we have been trying to return the favor ever since.

Seems to be a human tendency to put God in a "box" which in turn puts us in a "box".

Maybe it should not be our "obligation" but our "option and priviledge" to "unbox" both God and ourself.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.