The pathetic reality of all this is that at this point the "general public" has become JADED about the whole subject --- and has reverted to the fallback abject "psychological defensive barrier of denial" posture.

One hears far more "flap" about the Sherrod affair (not that one shouldn't be hearing about all of that, but when one considers the RELATIVE MAGNITUDES of the topics, it is clear that the "public reaction" to the two outrages are really WAY OUT OF RELATIVE PROPORTION).

"King" Georgie and his Crackpot Cabal of NeoConMen have GONE A LONG WAY TOWARD KILLING THIS COUNTRY.

I see nothing at all "Religious" in this argument. It makes no reference at all to the allegedly divine writings. It could just as easily been made by any secular philosophy. I wonder - seriously - why the author thinks this is a religious argument. I am baffled by the notion.

The Eighth Amendment prohibits cruel and unusual punishment; 18 United States Code, Sections 241 and 242; and 42 United States Code, Section 1983, provide both civil penalties and criminal punishments against local, State and federal officials who violate the civil and human rights of ANY PERSON while acting "under color of law," as the XIV Amendment also prohibits any State from depriving ANY PERSON within its jurisdiction, of life, liberty or property without due process of law.
Thus, from these various laws and the proper constitutional interpretation as to their legal application, the U.S. Constitution and laws pursuant thereof protect ALL PERSONS within the jurisdiction of the United States, not just American citizens, against "cruel and unusual punishment," which "water-boarding," physical beatings, and sleep deprivation, clearly are.
Torture, is always "cruel and unusual punishment." And under our system of laws, only freely given willful confessions are admissible as legally obtained criminal evidence, as the V Amendment also protects ALL PERSONS against self-incrimination.
America's Founders intended and purposed that the United States be a beacon of lawful liberty and constitutional justice for the world to emulate. And post-Civil War Amendments legislated on these fundamental principles of justice, attest to this God-inspired vision for our nation and the rest of the world.
And thus, a proper reading of all our laws would sustain the fact that ALL persons, not just American citizens, have constitutional protections that secure, ensure, preserve, and guarantee protection for all civil rights and human rights, by strongly prohibiting all forms of "cruel and unusual punishment," which torture, in any form, whether mental, physical, psychological or emotional, clearly is.

Torture is being perpetrated on American citizens on US Soil in the name of fighting terrorism. Congress needs to hold hearings and look into Organized Stalking and Electronic Harassment which is better defined as torture. Yeah- they mock it on TV-- but I have never seen or heard anybody mock it after they spent a night being bathed in directed energy (DEW). Look into the Shadow Government that operates outside of the Constitution and due process. Thousands of Americans are reporting this - MD's professors, journalists, professioanls. politicians and on it goes. In order to protect and grow Home Security budgets the target list has been opened up to include average Amercian citizens in the name of fighting Terrorism. Torture is being done to these people all across the USA. I thought Obama was against torture? Why is the Gov't he oversees doing it?

Meanwhile Kieth Sutherland projects TORTURE as a NORMAL and EFFECTIVE method in his big macho hit TV Series!!!!! One of the BIGGEST HIT SERIES EVER ON TV!!!!!

Geeze!

He's got to be a Republican.

It is gross and evil rationalization for anyone to accept and allow torture; much less someone who can claim to have some religious morality and even more so one who pretends to follow the teachings of Jesus! That any public official could even begin to approve and allow such bestial acts is abhorrent; to actively advocate and promote such criminal behaviors by George Bush and his henchmen administration was and is not acceptable! These actions cry out for action by all moral men to take action to condemn in the most clear manner that such action is not allowed! George Bush, Dick Cheney, Condi Rice, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, et al, all Justice department people, and everyone in the CIA involved need to be charged, convicted, and properly and completely and relentlessly punished for their heinous crimes!

Posted by: djmolter "in the Old Testament, the Jewish God routinely authorized the slaughter of innocents just to clear land for the Israelites. If this is indeed the same God of the New Testament, I wonder why he changed his mind?"
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There is still an awful lot of killing on Gods part in the New Testament too. It was that Jesus guy who was against it. Though you would expect followers of a religion named after him would actually follow his teachings. But then again maybe I expect too much from people.

We human beings need to be very careful about the means and leave the end to God.

"Torture is against U.S. law. In this country, we are a nation of laws. Laws may not be broken just because somebody in government decides they can be."

Your definition of torture is debatable and on your comment about a Nation of law...our DOJ has chosen not to enforce our anti-drug laws (marijuana use/sale) and our anti-ILLEGAL immigration laws. So you are way behind with this bunch. Sorry.

‘Submit or DIE’.

I fear Christianity; if it follows Rev. Killmer has already lost to Islam!

Or, maybe Old Testament God will smite our enemies so our hands can stay clean like ancient Israel’s did.

Oops, I guess their hands got plenty bloody back then also (which is maybe why Islam follows the God of the Old Testament)!

"The use of torture wasn't the result of a few bad apples..." Oh, no, dear readers. Bush and Cheney actually ordered people to do far worse things than waterboarding.. They ordered people to pull out fingernails and cut open testicles. Why George and Dick used to actually sneak down to Gitmo and do a little of it themselves, while they were taking a break from frogman training in preparation for blowing up the levees in New Orleans. Why, they used to sit around and chuckle about how they were such demolition experts after blowing up the Twin Towers.
You people who participate in this crapola just keep telling yourselves you're only doing it to bolster your "Faith".

The only reason Mr. Bush was elected and re-elected and allowed to torture was the total and uncritical support of the Evangelical Christian Community.

You'd all better start accepting responsibility and acting accordingly.

You're the ones that believe in the Almight Judgement.

I used to wonder how people who called themselves "religious" could endorse and cheer torture. They would bend over backwards to celebrate torture, ignoring the evidence that it doesn't work, that our best intelligence gatherers never use it, etc. They LOVED the idea of torture. It made them happy to think our government was torturing people, innocent and guilty alike.

And yet they called themselves religious.

Then I realized that these people are religious, it's just that they worship a god of destruction, death, misery and annihilation. There have been many such gods over the millennia of human history. They've had names like Baal, Moloch, and lately Satan. Whether they are real or not is irrelevant. When they are worshiped and emulated, they become real enough in our lives.

Sheesh, if you need to believe in a god to know torture is wrong, something is lacking in your thought process. There is no god, and torture is wrong.

"You'd think that anyone seeing Christ on a cross every Sunday would realize that he probably wouldn't endorse torture."

Actually, Christ believes in torture as a preventative, allowing unbelievers and heretics to suffer torment in Hell for all eternity.

Most religions have a Hell of some sort, where people are tortured forever. This threat of eternal torture is used to scare them into doing right, such as a suicide bombing of a kindergarten filled with unbelievers' children.

God also believes in torture by sending Adam and Eve, and all their innocent children and children's children, to forever suffer pain and anguish for Old Man Adam eating the wrong fruit just once.

Relief from torture, from pain and anguish, is the promise of heaven if you do good and do as you are told. So one the one hand you have eternal torture promised by God, Moses, Christ, Mohammed and others if you are caught doing wrong. You have a release from torture if you do right. This seems to be the essence of many religions, which are based on torture and non-torture.

It doesn't take a religious person to realize that torture is wrong. Christians have a tough sell saying there's a religious case against torture when in the Old Testament, the Jewish God routinely authorized the slaughter of innocents just to clear land for the Israelites. If this is indeed the same God of the New Testament, I wonder why he changed his mind?

All those who think that it's OK for America to torture to save lives, do you extend the same courtesy to other nations who think that torturing Americans to save lives is OK?

..and yes, thebump, both Bush and Cheney DID authorize torture and the sooner people like you get past your mental block the sooner justice can prevail by throwing these criminals into jail hwere they belong - preferably in Iraq or Afghanistan.

Torture and other unjust laws were banned after a lot of hard work over hundreds of years. We cannot let uncomfortable events such as 9/11 to break the soul of a nation allowing it to commit other atrocities as revenge, otherwise we would be in the company of Serbia or Israel - neither of which is a model other countries should aspire to.

Here is an idea. Keep religion and out of politics. By your reasoning if there was a religion that said torture was ok than torture would be ok. We are a nation of laws.

The bump thumped: President Bush never authorized torture...
______________________________________________

Two weeks ago he proudly and publicly confirmed that, given the same circumstances, he'd authorize waterboarding again.

Note: The USA prosecuted/convicted four Japanese for what we identified as a war crime. It was so defined at the Nuremberg trials. Its been understood as torture since the Middle Ages.

We should also consider why religion (particularly Christianity) sanctioned torture in the past.

During the Middle Ages torture was used against criminal suspects in order to induce them to confess their crimes. Besides judicial utility, obtaining confession of crime meant obtaining confession of sin--something desired by the Church as beneficial to the soul of the one confessing. That is, torture was sanctioned because it was believed to be good for the one tortured.

Modern-day justification of torture lacks the Miedeval Church's tender concern for the one tortured.

thebump thumped: If we can save thousands of lives by having a terrorist pull an all-nighter on his feet, or endure a Barry Manilow loop, I for one am all for it.
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Me too, Bumpy.

Howvever... the question before the bar is torture not discomfort.

..."I just sent this article/truth to the Presient, he needs to see it and read it, because it's "TRUE!

I am disgusted with what the Republicans have done to my country they have in fact costs America to lose the Morale High Ground/fact, they broke U.S. Law and International Law/fact, and they have endangered America "NOT" made it safer, the article is true to this Christian, Voter/Vet USAF, Graduate Student, Masters Program, Professional Studies,
East Tennessee State University/Class/2010

What the Republicans have done to you America lies in this article of truth, they have made America less safe, our troops more endangered in other Middle Eastern countries, as the Republicans leave America's image in tatters, Abu Ghriab ring a bell...hmm...and others.

That is what the Republicans of the "Blew it Bush Admin/Party/NO has done to you America, they have in fact RUINED YOU GOOD, Wrecked our economy and our image!

..."Be sure now you/run and put some more criminals/back in..."APPRECIATE IT..fools!

..."The Republicans have ruined you good/America, and your blaming President Barack Obama/Democrats who's doing all they can to help the working/poor, middle class, and you'd do well to remember that America come November as the party of "NO" votes against helping the working/poor and middle class with unemployment assistence from the Federal Government while they take all they can carry away with them, they just don't want you to have it....

..."Try and remember who passed the Unemployment Assistence help/Democrats/President Barack obama, to 2.1 Million American's who needed help, and try to remember the Republicans for torturing people and for RUINING AMERICA'S IMAGE BUT GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD/FACT!

..."No wonder America's no longer trusted anywhere, as an America I am disgusted with what I saw the Blew it Bush/Republicans do to my country, who have endangered America's soldiers "MORE/IRAQ/AFGHANISTAN who now thanks to the Republicans have lost the "MORALE HIGH GROUND/FACT!

..."Be sure now America you "RUN" and put some more Republicans back in they sure do appreciate it....wow have they ruined you good/America, and that's a fact!

..."Appreciate it...

If we can save thousands of lives by having a terrorist pull an all-nighter on his feet, or endure a Barry Manilow loop, I for one am all for it.

This is absolute nonsense!
Where is the "human dignity" in murdering thousands!
The author starts with a religious premise and ends up with a lot of non religious liberal BS.

Well, aren't we all glad the CIA is not a religiously based entity. Those terrorist have waived their right to have "human dignaty" by purpetrating their violence upon innocent people around the world. Ist one of those golden rule "do unto other as you would have them do unto you"? Well, we are.

Almost all of the republican fundamentalists I've heard speak on the subject supported torture and everything else Bush did, including wiretapping and spying on Americans. Quite a blood-thirsty lot when it comes right down to it and they use their distorted faith to convince themselves that torture wouldn't be happening at all unless this almighty god they worship approved. These are truly sick people, especially when armed with guns and voter registration cards.

thebump:

You are a naive fool. Stop drinking the coolade bud and join us in the real world. How many people have died in US custody? No torture eh?

President Bush is unrepentant about authorizing the use of torture

This is a lie. President Bush never authorized torture. (Isn't there a commandment against lying?)

If Rev. Killmer is so concerned about torture, may we ask if his "Statement of Conscience" also calls for shutting down the abortion industry, which has tortured and butchered hundreds of millions?

If so, then his views are worth considering. Otherwise, Rev. Killmer is not merely a liar but also a laughable hypocrite.

The National Religious Campaign Against Torture (NRCAT) has 290 member religious organizations that believe it is always wrong.

It would be interesting to see the list of members. The Huckabee religions, Mormons and Donohue Catholics are probably conspicuous by their absence since right-wing support of Lord Cheney and torture in their eyes is Divinely inspired patriotism.

Agree but what did the RCC do to people back in the time of the great pope PAUL 4th? Bear in mind that medical care in thoes days was lacking as well. P.S. Pope Paul 4th was the second pope thrown in the river after his death.

You'd think that anyone seeing Christ on a cross every Sunday would realize that he probably wouldn't endorse torture.