Clarification: Having same sex attraction is not wrong in itself, just as having sexual desires for members of the opposite sex is not wrong in itself... Homosexual actions and activism, however, is just as wrong as lust and promiscuity and pornography.

Wow. So Mr. Joe here does not give a reason why same-sex attraction IS in fact natural and in fact ok and morally right.
He simply ASSumes it and ASSumes that we all agree.

How utterly irresponsible of Mr. Joe to make it seem as though Mr. Tony blamed the victims. To prove Joe wrong all we need to do is read this paragraph of Tony's, "The Christians and pro-family leaders I know are unanimous in believing that no person, especially a child, should be subjected to verbal or physical harassment or violence--whether because of their sexuality, their religious beliefs, or for any other reason. Such bullying violates the Christian's obligation to love our neighbor as we love ourselves, and receives no support from the pro-family political movement."

What hypocrisy is this!
Joe can say that homosexuality is not wrong but doesn't need to back it up, and Tony CANNOT say that homosexuality is wrong, explain why, show facts and statistics... Tony is labeled an abuser and portrayed as one of those "bullies." This is just ridiculous.

Another mark of hypocrisy and irresponsibility in Joe's part: Tony clearly said the blame must be on the BULLIES, not on the victims, as Joe claims Tony did:
"the blame should be placed on the bullies themselves..."

As for nature and genetics... Homosexuality is by no means natural to man, even if man were to be "born" with it... After all, some men are born without limbs or with retardation. Is this natural?
And genes.. What about people born with diabetes, or with alcoholic genes (i.e., predetermination to be alcoholic)? Is this natural, then, and therefore ok?

There is not enough room here to refute his other erroneous statements, but I'll close with this:
Where are the sources for his claim that "Professionals have found that so-called reparative therapies do not work, are destructive"? It would seem that there is evidence that they work... (see for instance, Stanton L. Jones and Mark A Yarhouse, Ex-gays? A Longitudinal Study of Religiously Mediated Change in Sexual Orientation)

And if you want to give it a try, or just simply want to live a chaste homosexual life, then you can try COURAGE (couragerc dot net).

Sadly, the Christian right are fighting hard to their last sacred corner of bigotry, the domain of religious-based bigotry, a right to not only put on blinders to science and common sense but to bring on burdens, headships and even physical harm to their fellow human beings.

Let's call this what it really is, it's primitive. Up to the late 70s, the Mormons claimed that the Bible told them that Africans were cursed by God and therefore inferior. The KKK, who claim to be true Christians, bare the same creed. The Bible does not condemn slavery, it actually instructs owners and endorses it. So should freedom of religion give the followers of the Klan the right to act out on racism?

Joe is absolutely correct, enough of Perkins, in fact Perkins is more Klan-like than Christian. Just please do us a big favor. . . Evolve and grow up.

We, in the United States, assume that responsible publishers will put material that may be harmful to children or teens behind protected barriers - whether in print or on the Internet. We place warnings regarding adult material. We install digital nannies to monitor what our kids read.

Why is this religious hate speech accessible to kids? Bare breasts rarely, if ever, have driven a teen to suicide. A sexy butt has never, to my knowledge, incited a child to bully a classmate.

What standard of journalistic integrity requires the Post to make demeaning and degrading Op Eds accessible to children and other impressionable individuals?

The word face is best avoided in science. We have trends and data that support and refute a hypothesis. In empirical research we avoid the worse of such words as TRUTH and PROVE. In my undergraduate career I learned the word NATURAL is even a human construct as the natural world doesn't define things at either natural or unnatural, humans are quick to cast things as natural or unnatural whenever it fits their need to do so.

I cannot speak on theology, i choose not to do so. I speak on biology. There are over 250 groups of animals that interact in social packs studied that exist same sex pairings. If you really must keep using words like PROVE, TRUTH, and NATURAL you may not enjoy what trends the evidence currently supports.

Within nature it is well supported the homosexuality exists. The gene labeled q28 was found on 33 pairs of gay brothers in a study size of 40 gay brothers. A leopard can not change its spots, it doesn't need to, there is nothing wrong with its spots and it is unable to do so. Likewise, I too, am unable to choose to change a phenotypic trait that has made me a member of the GLBTQ community.

Tony Perkins has the right to have his narrow minded beliefs. With war, hunger, famine, and genocide rampant in the world you'd think he'd have better priorities. Nevertheless his continued marginalization of group of humans because of this bigotry he masks poorly in religious fervor and misquotations of research.

detroitblkmale30

Secular:we've been through this before secular..you have nothing new to add to sway me. All of your horse manure comments are quite childish actually.
________________________
They are childish, ignorant, pointless, it's true. Wonder why he makes them.

DanielintheLionsDen: Thanks but i dont need your help to live in a world or moral relativism. Furthermore you have absoultely NO PROOF these doctrines are false. Once again your opinion. It's helpful, you should keep in mind, to only help people when they have asked for it. I have asked for none.I am clearly convicted in the word of God as written in the Bible. You calling it false doesnt deter me from that. You have no proof that it is a lie. God's voice as his word in the Bible is satan? wow if I had any inclination to even begin to give you creedence, you lost it ALL right there. I dont need any false prophets telling me God's word is a lie.That's exactly what Jesus warned would happen.You are presuming that your opinion is pre-empting God's scripture. I am not putting forth my opinion I am putting forth Biblical scripture. You put forth some Biblical scripture saying it is NOT sinful and we can begin to have a debate, otherwise there is nothing left to say.No the ruination will come to those who DONT follow his word as his word states. It doesnt come to those who follow it. Perhaps you should further familiarize yourself with God's scriptures.

detroitblkmale30

You can repeat false doctrines over and over, but that does not make them true.

You can say them 10 times, 100 times, a thousand times, a million times, a billion times, a trillion times, but a lie is still a lie.

detroitblkmale30

What you are hearing is not God's voice; it is the whispered voice of Satan in your ear.

I am trying to help you, but I can see that you do not want to be helped.

I do not presume that my opinions should pre-empt God, but you are not following God; you are following false doctrines regarding gay people which will only bring you ultimate ruination.

Instead he acted as a typical abuser acts. He blamed the victim while claiming victim status for himself.
----------
This is so stunningly simple in its insight, it's elegant. Joe, keep singing it, brotha.

You also stated "Afterall isnt it tolerance of ALL people you are seeking. Tolerance for ALL cant just be limited to the gay community, it has to include people like mylself. Intolerance for religious people is a threat to tolerance for the gay community". No body here, least of which the secularists are saying we should pass laws or any of that sort to limit your freedoms and rights. We are only pointing to the errors of your way of thinking, nothing beyond that. You on the other hand not only disagree with us, which is OK. But you and your ilk will not stop there, you want to curb the rights and freedoms of others based on your scripture. Tolerance is not to be mistaken to be embrace of the other person's position, but to agree to disagree. As you base your inspiration to curb others rights on your scripture, i characterized it as horse manure, because it just really offends me that much. Can you even comprehend that?
--------
secular: I wish i beleived that. But thats not what many on your side of the issue want. A middle ground would be fine. But read some of the posts on this page including your own. There isnt mutual respect of opinion or agreeing to disagree.I've never called anyone names, called for limiting freedoms or called anyone's belief horse manure. I have simply defended my right to have my beleifs and explained, sometimes ad nauseum, exactly where they come from. So you can call it whatever you want. You could have saved yourself all of the typing. How are eunuchs even relevant to this argument? Was it the responsibilty of the church to comment on every societal custom. Besides, if you really pay attention to history, and the Bible, Hebrews didn't practice castration, those were the Egytians,Romans,Babylonians etc.Like i said in my first respone to your last post, you have nothing new to add to sway or change my opinion or the defense of my positon. Speaking of comprehend, I dont think you understand there is a difference between civilly agreeing to disagree which is what that phrase really means and calling someone's belief's horse manure.My whole point was go back you your only one of two things worth living by statement and live by your "golden rule".

Secular: The last time we went back and forth we already established that Jesus actually lived, there are numerous non-Biblical references to his life. So enough with your "mythical" Jesus references.Its clear you dont believe in the supernatural Jesus but there is nothing mythical about him. Leprechauns are mythical as are unicorns. Jesus was not. If you need the links, I'm happy to provide them for you. Perhaps you and Christopher Hitchens should actually read the Bible. I think you missed the whole point of his death. since you asked, here goes: Then the scribes and Pharisees brought to Him a woman caught in adultery. And when they had set her in the midst, 4 they said to Him, “Teacher, this woman was caught[b] in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now Moses, in the law, commanded us that such should be stoned.But what do You say?” 6 This they said, testing Him, that they might have something of which to accuse Him. But Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground with His finger, as though He did not hear.
Then those who heard it, being convicted by their conscience,[h] went out one by one, beginning with the oldest even to the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 When Jesus had raised Himself up and saw no one but the woman, He said to her,“Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Has no one condemned you?”
11 She said, “No one, Lord.”
And Jesus said to her, “Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more.”

I almost dont have to explain this, but clearly this demonstrates Jesus as the New Covenant between God and his people. The sin is still sin, the punishment however has now changed. I can give you more links for reference if you need it.
Obviously people are borned deformed.I know you arent suggesting that gay people should be considered deformed. I dont see your point here as there is no comparison between deformed people and gay people, unless you are suggesting that is a deformity, which of course I dont support.One is physical the other is physcological and sexual.

DanielintheLionsDen: Sorry nothing you said offers and PROOF that anything you have said is MORE TRUE. Therefore, once again, your opinion has absolutely NO BEARING on my faith, THANK GOD.Funny, false doctrine? read Leviticus 20:13 or Romans 1 and talk to me about false doctrine. I will take God's word over yours anyday. Thanks again.You have no truth on your side, you have your opinion.Thats all.I am glad my salvation is not resting on your "truth" or your opinion. You will see in the end that God's word is eternal and doesnt sway with societal norms. The nerve of you to caste aspersions on my salvation. I am safe and secure in God's word. What are you basing your opinion on??? Feelings? your human-based sense of what is right or wrong? Polls? "Popular" opinion? I am VERY familiar with the Bible and God's word, I dont need you to encourage me to re-read it. I would however encourage you to read it and come up with a detailed explanation as to why the many references against this issue in both testaments of the Bible no longer apply. Or how my beleif in them has any standing or bearing on my salvation. I dont seem to recall a scripture saying if you follow God's word you are in danger of hellfire.I can however refer you to many scriptures saying quite the opposite.I pray for your further understanding of the truth in the word of God.

Detroitblkmale30

I think the MY opinion should have some BREARING on your faith, because my opinion is more true than your faith, which is based on false doctrines about gay people. You must change, for your own good; you will be a better person, and who knows how you will end up, on your current path of destrution?

As I said before, I have the authority of truth on my side; on your side you have lies and deceptions, which may seem powerful and strong for a time, but will enventually give way into the collapse of a rotten foundation.

Your defiance at truth in the face of your false doctrines will not help you at all. All that will help is the total and complete abaondonment of your crooked religious beliefs, and a spiritual renewal in truth.

detroitblkmale30

Your beliefs are based on false doctrines. You say that your beliefs are based on a higher authority, but that is not true; your beliefs are false, and therefore they have no claim to any authority, higher, or otherwise, but they are instead, arbitrary.

Truth is what gives me authority to instruct you on your wrong-thinking, and tolerance does not extend to bigotry and expectiations of preferential treatment.

I urge you again, to take another look at your religious beliefs. Cast out all that is false and deceptive. Scapegoating gay people for the troubles of the world is not religious or spiritual; it is selfish, bigotted, and hateful. If you think that God supports you in this, you are very mistaken, and if you think that there awaits a place in Heaven for someone with your views, then again, you will see that you are very mistaken.

detroitblkmale30, you claimed "That is to say, things that you must understand punishments that were written BEFORE Jesus do not hold sway AFTER Jesus as he came for the remission of our sins and paid the price for them through his death and resurrection." When did the mythical Jesus of yours purport to have said that? If any thing he said every tittle of the law is to be obeyed. Which means when not obeyed the punishment is to be followed. Christopher Hitchens has a response to your vicarious redemption hypothesis.

Then you quote "some where made that way in servants in King's courts as was the custom," pray tell why is it your scripture is silent about that practice. I suppose it is ok to castrate people so they wont bang the king's wives or daughters. That is the benevolence of your higher authority.

Also "It clearly says some where born a eunuch(deformed)", so you agree that your higher authority creates deformed children. But you are not prepared to accept that your higher authority can create gays.

You also stated "Afterall isnt it tolerance of ALL people you are seeking. Tolerance for ALL cant just be limited to the gay community, it has to include people like mylself. Intolerance for religious people is a threat to tolerance for the gay community". No body here, least of which the secularists are saying we should pass laws or any of that sort to limit your freedoms and rights. We are only pointing to the errors of your way of thinking, nothing beyond that. You on the other hand not only disagree with us, which is OK. But you and your ilk will not stop there, you want to curb the rights and freedoms of others based on your scripture. Tolerance is not to be mistaken to be embrace of the other person's position, but to agree to disagree. As you base your inspiration to curb others rights on your scripture, i characterized it as horse manure, because it just really offends me that much. Can you even comprehend that?

Has my submission been censored?

DanielintheLionsDen: Thanks for YOUR opinion. That has absolutely NO BEARING on my faith, my beleifs, or on God's word. I dont have to change a thing. You are welcome to your opinion just as I am welcome to mine. However, seeing as you are NOT a believer in my faith. You have NO AUTHORITY to say it isn't a sin.I urge you to reread those scriptures, there is nothing wrong about them.They are very clear and unequivocal. At least I have a higher authority to base my opinion on, you are simply basing yours on prevailing winds of certain sectors of society. At the very least, you should become more openminded, it will make you a better person. Afterall isnt it tolerance of ALL people you are seeking. Tolerance for ALL cant just be limited to the gay community, it has to include people like mylself. Intolerance for religious people is a threat to tolerance for the gay community.

Secular:we've been through this before secular..you have nothing new to add to sway me. All of your horse manure comments are quite childish actually.

areyousaying : Im glad you could define" cherrypick" what you just did. your post is comical with you picking out, obscure and irrelevant scripture in hopes of somehow highlighting the fact that homosexuality isnt sin. if you want to go THERE, get in, buckle up. Lets go. First of all,any true Christian knows that the BIble must be read fully old and new testament, and secondly that everything is to be taken in spiritual context. That is to say, things that you must understand punishments that were written BEFORE Jesus do not hold sway AFTER Jesus as he came for the remission of our sins and paid the price for them through his death and resurrection. So NO no one is going to bash any kids or kill their kids in some ancient punititve punishment. Argument #1=irrelvant. Next your eunuch comment. NOWHERE in that scripture does it say become a eunuch or make someone a eunuch..READ IT AGAIN. It clearly says some where born a eunuch(deformed) some where made that way in servants in King's courts as was the custom, and some do it to themselves because they saw that as a way to NOT sin sexually. "He who is able to accpet it" or do that then, they can. Not they MUST. Don't quite see your point there anyway. Argument #2 irrelavant

The Bible says it is sinful and so it is.

Posted by: detroitblkmale

Cherry-pick this:

"For there are eunuchs, that were so born from their mother's womb: and there are eunuchs, that were made eunuchs by men: and there are eunuchs, that made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it." (Matthew 19:12 ASV)

Go castrate yourself. The Bible tells you to do it and so it is.

"Happy those who seize your children and smash them against a rock." Psalms 137:9 NAB

Go smash your children against a rock. The Bible says it and so it is. After all, one might be gay anyway.

Here are the incontrovertible facts: Same-sex attraction is completely natural. It is not wrong. It is not unhealthy and it is certainly not "sinful."
---------------------------------------
Posted by: WmarkW "Their definition of "facts" bears no resemblance to the one I learned in school."

===================================
Its called scientific progress. I learned Pluto was a planet, that electrons, protons and electrons were the smallest things in the universe and tonsils and appendix are useless and should really be removed in everyone before they cause you to be sick.

Since I graduated, all that has been proven false. If we close our minds when we leave school, the world will leave you behind.

how is a "secular" columnist going to tell people of faith that homosexuality is not sinful. The Bible says it is sinful and so it is.Nothing said above will ever change any of that.Keep on standing on your beliefs Tony Perkins, shame on those who plead for tolerance(yet have none for those of faithful convictions) and blame those who stand on their beliefs for the actions of others(bullying and suicide)Bullying is wrong so are hateful acts. But as a strong person of faith, I Tony Perkins and the millions who believe it is sinful behavior have every right to say so. What DOES need to occur are ways to have more civil dialogue about WHY these beliefs are held.Frankly its irresponsible by the columnist and others to imply that repeating God's word, even in love is inciting violence, I have never heard any preacher promote violence toward anyone gay or straight, especially not Tony Perkins, sorry, but not falling for this suggestive argument, that is indeed, not factual.

Posted by: detroitblkmale
___________________________________________

Bible is nothing but a product of a bunch of ignorant superstitious bronze age mythologists. It is no work of ethics, literature. It is a tome of speculation, which promotes in-group nepotism, & out-group hostility full of contradictions of natural laws. It promotes the lowest of the low lives as some kind of heroes to look up to. At best you may find a few pearls in a mountain of horse manure, its just not worth sifting through the mountain for those few pearls. It is no book for moral and ethical guidance in the 21st century. It is best to consign it to the dust heap of history.

detroitblkmale30

Being gay is not a sin, it is not a perversion, and there is nothing wrong with being gay.

If your relgion teaches you that being gay is sin, then your religion is wrong, and it is YOU who must change, not gay people.

I uruge you to review the false doctrines of your religious belief that lead you to such wrong conclusions, and then to cast off these false doctrines and beliefs; it will make you a better person.

Whatever happened to "Land of the Free" in our fair country?
I'm horrified at the witchhunts and the brow-beating discrimination openly exhibited in this country, even in some cases, set into law, perverting our legal system.
I congratulate Joe Solmonese for having the courage to stand up to these holier-than-thou sanctimonious fools who persist in harrassing and terrifying our young people as they come of age in this deteriorating society.
Since the turn of the millenium, this decade has become the hallmark for removal of our freedom and will go down in American history as another disreputable era like that of Joe McCarthy.
In fact, McCarthy set the standard, but these loud-mouth fools have taken discrimination to a deep new low.
Anyone who doesn't conform to their way of thinking is humiliated and threatened.
In about 30 short years, our land has violated all of the standards that used to make it the light of the world.
We owe our children better than this.
Mr. Solmonese is correct.

While I completely agree with your points, I'm sad in knowing that none of the religious types that none of these points will resonate with Christian types that frequent these pages. Their minds are not open to ideas; their faith is supported almost entirely by textual exegesis, finding this or that snippet of Biblical text that they can wave as a banner or plant on a bumper sticker to rally their brethren. Its a movement that admits no black and white, recognizes no errors, praises stupidity and exalts boorishness and nastiness as symbols of God's blessings. "You disagree with me! I'm outraged!" they say. (They're so easily outraged.)

They are the evil that they've been waiting for.

Given Christianity's historical record, its gay hating should come as no surprise. Religion of Love strikes again. Baruch HaShem, save us all from the christians.

God save us all.

No doubt plenty of people believe that homosexuality is wrong. I also have no doubt that there still are people who believe that blacks and females are inferior. And yet the Washington Post publishes an editorial written by a known homophobic hatemonger. There STILL are many religious sects in this country which believe that women's "place" is submission in the home. The Post has not published such an editorial. Yet.

What next in the religious section? Anti-Jewish speech under the guise of religious "belief"? What about an editorial by a member of the White Supremacist Christian Identity?

how is a "secular" columnist going to tell people of faith that homosexuality is not sinful. The Bible says it is sinful and so it is.Nothing said above will ever change any of that.Keep on standing on your beliefs Tony Perkins, shame on those who plead for tolerance(yet have none for those of faithful convictions) and blame those who stand on their beliefs for the actions of others(bullying and suicide)Bullying is wrong so are hateful acts. But as a strong person of faith, I Tony Perkins and the millions who believe it is sinful behavior have every right to say so. What DOES need to occur are ways to have more civil dialogue about WHY these beliefs are held.Frankly its irresponsible by the columnist and others to imply that repeating God's word, even in love is inciting violence, I have never heard any preacher promote violence toward anyone gay or straight, especially not Tony Perkins, sorry, but not falling for this suggestive argument, that is indeed, not factual.

Here are the incontrovertible facts: Same-sex attraction is completely natural. It is not wrong. It is not unhealthy and it is certainly not "sinful."
---------------------------------------

No one I have so much trouble understanding many On Faith articles.

Their definition of "facts" bears no resemblance to the one I learned in school.