eezmamata Wrote:

GREENSTHEMAN, the difference between fools like you and the muslims is merely a bit of explosive. You're just as much a believer in absurdities as they are.
You are an idiot, I wish it weren't so, but there we are.
Posted by: eezmamata | December 15, 2010 11:59 PM

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Think of me what you will, I do know that Jesus loves you too.

"My question to you Ms Garrison, who is it that attacks Christmas, is it not people that do not believe in Christ?"
No one whatsoever is attacking your right to celebrate Christmas just as you please.
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A woman brought the a lawsuit to the courts that kept prayers from being said in schools, and there are people that are trying to take the word God from the pledge of alligance, from the visitors center of the Capitol, and the use of Merry Christmas. So the courts are definately involved in these actions.

If a child is from an atheist, or a non-christian religion Should not be Forced into praying a Christian prayer.
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Atheists may argue with your reasons for doing so, even publicly, but that is their right. Your ideas are not immune from debate or criticism simply because they are "religious," and debating or criticizing them does not count as persecuting or oppressing you.
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if the governments deny freedom of practicing your faith is oppression.

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"Christmas is a Christian celebration, and as such, i fail to understand the attack by atheist billboard signs that say " This season celebrate reason" that is inflamatory and confrontational to say the least."
Well, then, it's equally inflammatory and confrontational to say, "This season celebrate Christ," or "Christ is the reason for the season." It is still your right, and their right, to speak your mind - the First Amendment protects inflammatory and confrontational speech.
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I am not intimidated by opposing views, however I do believe it can be done in a non-condesending way, look at some of the posts in this domain, and you see some posters calling christians,stupid,narrow minded,etc. while some may be, not all Christians are, that does not endear people to having an honest dialog.
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If you feel bashed by atheists arguing for reason, then how do you think atheists feel when Christians tell them they will burn forever after death, that this is right and good, and that the aforesaid Christians will continue to praise and worship the god who tortures their brothers and sisters forever and ever? Christians are not short on inflammatory attacks on atheists, by any means.
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You have a valid point here, I do not believe that bashing whether it is Christians, atheists, or whomever it is uncalled for.
First of all there are many watered down versions of Christianity, and many self-professed Christians that are anything but true Christians. There are many lazy Christians that do not study the bible and therefore can't witness to people the way they should. You can't tell someone they are going to hell and not give an accurate biblical reason why,many Christians will be surprised when they go to hell because they did not have Christ in their hearts.

Posted by: Catken1 | December 16, 2010 8:02 AM

"Jesus was Jewish - he didn't celebrate Christmas.
Posted by: lepidopteryx"

Jesus was a Jenovah's Witness - he didn't celebrate Christmas?

What a mess of misunderstandings and gibberish. Think about what Merry Christmas means, Can You? Do you have the Willpower? For those that don't get it, Jesus was in fact born, this is historically correct. Read the Bible! Wait the Bible may be to hard for certain individuals to grasp. But for those above who fight for GOD and truly know by faith alone that he is real then, Thank you. Don't let the unbelievers shake you up. We celebrate the Birth of our Savior and for the rest of the people that don't believe, I don't know what they celebrate.
This is easy, it's called respect, Simply say, Merry Christmas to those that are celebrating JESUS, or if they are Jewish Happy Hanakkah. Very easy. Get the Picture.

Christ was concerned with the salvation of mankind not social agendas like the modern churches seem to think.It fact most of them aren't even Christian by definition of what a Christian is.Watering the doctrines down to a social level destroys Christian theology and changes it into a secular do-good feel-good theology that has nothing to do with true Christian beliefs.

The "War on Christmas" is really a war on Judaism, Hanukkah and all non-Christian faiths. Saying "Happy Holidays" doesn't exclude Christmas, it includes Christmas, Hanukkah and other religious holidays celebrated by various faiths during the same time of year.

However, radical Christians appear to want to deny to non-Christians the acknowledgment of their holidays and observances - thereby forcing Christianity and only Christianity on us all. This nothing but arm-twisting bigotry.

The phrase Keeping Christ in Christmas is merely a smokescreen for Excluding Non-Christian Religious Beliefs from the season, thereby discouraging people from observing non-Christian faiths. And that is the real, un-American agenda behind the War on Hanukkah.

When I see postings saying things like "I can't think of anything that would be more pleasing to Christ than celebrating his birthday," I am afraid of people who have so much hubris and self-centered ethnocentrism that they think they personally know best what Christ would think. Truly frightening. I worry about the future of religious freedom in the U.S.A.

This argument makes me think of the preacher who told me Jesus would support capital punishment. "Definitely", he said. I asked: "Capital punishment killed Jesus, the most innocent of men. Why would he be for it?" He looked at me, speechless, as if he had never considered what was to me the first question to be pondered. I think millions of "christians" don't even know who Jesus was. My Jesus would not carry political signs, and certainly not a gun. And for those who do these things in his name, he might throw up his hands, shake his head, and mutter to himself: "I give up!"

bobmoses -

Oh, yes, there is partisanship in some of these columns, but Cal Thomas, among others here, will take offense if you claim he is liberal.

Religions teach whatever people what them to teach. They always will. If people own slaves, they will break the Baptists apart to create a Baptist convention that approves of slavery. God has nothing to do with it.

"As usual, OnFaith is provides yet another partisan liberal screed wrapped in the fig leaf of faith.

OnFaith is by far the most extreme and partisan column/blog operated by the Post. "

Read this: WAAAAH! On Faith is not solely dedicated to articles praising Christianity, telling everyone that Christians are the only moral people, and arguing that everyone ought to be Christian, by force if necessary! WAAAH! They say things I disagree with sometimes! They say things which aren't entirely complimentary to me and my beliefs! They actually have the gall to suggest that free speech and freedom of religion applies to people other than my kind! WAAAAAAH!

"What matters is the celebration of the occurrence of the holy event, and if somebody picked Dec 25th some time ago for the celebration, let us celebrate it then. If some Germans 200 year ago decided to celebrate the event with a pine tree covered with family made ornaments, that is good enough, let us all do it

THE celebration of THE holy event? As if there were only one holy day and one holy event this time of year.

Let US celebrate it, let us ALL do it - as if we all must celebrate YOUR holy day for it to be meaningful to you.

Celebrate your holy day when and as you please. But do also recognize that others have different holy days, some of them also falling at this time of year, and respect their rights to celebrate as they please, too. And if you want to have public celebration and promotion of your holiday, you must accept that others, yes, even atheists, have the right to the same. No less and no more.

As usual, OnFaith is provides yet another partisan liberal screed wrapped in the fig leaf of faith.

OnFaith is by far the most extreme and partisan column/blog operated by the Post.

We the American people must correct the problems in Congress. In 2012 we will have the opportunity to remove inept,corrupt, and greedy elected representatives that quite frankly should have been removed many many years ago. Our country will never recover from its serious economic ills until we the people take action on this grave matter.

In the first place, there’s no direct biblical commandment to celebrate the birth of Jesus on December 25. There’s nothing in the Bible that would even indicate that Jesus was born on December 25. In fact, there’s much in the New Testament narratives that would indicate that it didn’t occur during that time of year. It just so happens that on the twenty-fifth of December in the Roman Empire there was a pagan holiday that was linked to mystery religions; the pagans celebrated their festival on December 25. The Christians didn’t want to participate in that, and so they said, “While everybody else is celebrating this pagan thing, we’re going to have our own celebration. We’re going to celebrate the thing that’s most important in our lives, the incarnation of God, the birth of Jesus Christ. So this is going to be a time of joyous festivities, of celebration and worship of our God and King.”

I can’t think of anything more pleasing to Christ than the church celebrating his birthday every year. Keep in mind that the whole principle of annual festival and celebration is deeply rooted in ancient Jewish tradition. In the Old Testament, for example, there were times when God emphatically commanded the people to remember certain events with annual celebrations. While the New Testament doesn’t require that we celebrate Christmas every year, I certainly see nothing wrong with the church’s entering into this joyous time of celebrating the Incarnation, which is the dividing point of all human history. Originally, it was intended to honor, not Mithras or any of the other mystery religion cults, but the birth of our King.

Incidentally, Easter can be traced to Ishtar in the ancient world. But the Christian church coming together to celebrate the resurrection of Jesus is hardly something I think would provoke the wrath of God. I wish we had more annual festivals. The Roman Catholic Church, for example, celebrates with great joy the Feast of the Ascension every year. Some Protestant bodies do, but most do not. I wish we would celebrate that great event in the life of Christ when he was raised up into heaven to be crowned King of kings and Lord of lords. We celebrate his birth; we celebrate his death. I wish we would also celebrate his coronation.

"There is a war on Christmas which is part of the larger war on Christianity. Liberals are trying to drive Jesus out of the nation and are using the power of the state to do so."

Oh, I'm so sorry. I failed to see your churches burning, you jailed for worshipping as you pleased, your Nativity scenes taken away, your carols outlawed...
Oh, wait, none of this has actually happened. Jesus is still worshipped by a good majority of the nation, and probably will continue to be for a long time. Really.

Get a grip. You are not being persecuted. You are being denied the ability to force your religion on others via the secular law, but that is not oppression.

"Because you know in your heart that there are moral standards and that you are guilty of failing these standards"

Because no other religion, and no non-religious person, has any moral standards whatsoever, right? Of course, you're the only good and decent people on earth. Talk about ego.

No matter your faith, religious affiliation or beliefs - Celebrations have always been around this time of year.

It is the celebration of lights. The returning of the sun/son/mother/warmth/family. It is a time for all of us to reflect upon what this time of year means to us personally.

I do not need a creche at the town square to help me believe. I do not need politicians to tell me they believe in God/Jesus in order to validate my own beliefs or faith. Too much of what is spouted is about religion, not faith. Faith is personal, religion is public.

Basically the render unto Caesar quote is the rebuke that to be a person of faith you cannot worship mannan and God. You must choose, and only you can decide which road to follow.

I saw this little story a few days ago - it is a good one to remember.

A selfish man died and was greeted by an Angel who said nothing more than follow me. The 1st room was a banquet table laden with a magnificent banquet of foods. The dinners, thin, skeletal, sat with their hands taped to the end long spoons and forks, where they dug into the food and tossed into the air to feed themselves. The man said this is H3ll. Follow me. The next room too had a long table filled with food and the dinners also held long forks and spoons. The difference was they were laughing and eating abundantly as they feed each other joyously. The Angel now replied, return to life and change your ways.

"My question to you Ms Garrison, who is it that attacks Christmas, is it not people that do not believe in Christ?"

No one whatsoever is attacking your right to celebrate Christmas just as you please.

Atheists may argue with your reasons for doing so, even publicly, but that is their right. Your ideas are not immune from debate or criticism simply because they are "religious," and debating or criticizing them does not count as persecuting or oppressing you.

"Christmas is a Christian celebration, and as such, i fail to understand the attack by atheist billboard signs that say " This season celebrate reason" that is inflamatory and confrontational to say the least."

Well, then, it's equally inflammatory and confrontational to say, "This season celebrate Christ," or "Christ is the reason for the season." It is still your right, and their right, to speak your mind - the First Amendment protects inflammatory and confrontational speech.

If you feel bashed by atheists arguing for reason, then how do you think atheists feel when Christians tell them they will burn forever after death, that this is right and good, and that the aforesaid Christians will continue to praise and worship the god who tortures their brothers and sisters forever and ever? Christians are not short on inflammatory attacks on atheists, by any means.

Jesus was Jewish - he didn't celebrate Christmas.

Max Von Sydow had a great line in Hanna and Her Sisters: "I'm convinced that if Jesus came back today and saw what people were doing in his name,... he'd NEVER stop throwing up."
This about sums up my view (and the view of a lot of other Wiccans) on "Christianity" and the far right today. Soak your tea bag in that for a bit.

The better question is, "Would Jesus fight in any war?" I think the answer is, "No."

"Liberals are trying to drive Jesus out of the nation and are using the power of the state to do so. "

See, now, it's that sort of statement that opens American Christians up to ridicule.

You automatically assume that people that disagree with you politically hate Jesus?

Really?

That's just sad.

Not to mention of course pretty much free of any pesky facts, like poll after poll that show the overwhelming majority of 'liberals' in the US are Christian.

As for using the power of the state, I'd suggest that right wing Christians are at least just as likely as liberals to do this.

Witness the far right's use of the federal government to destabilize gay relationships.

Exactly what is that if it's not using the power of the state to attempt to force your religious views on others?

What a rude and dishonest article. There is a war on Christmas which is part of the larger war on Christianity. Liberals are trying to drive Jesus out of the nation and are using the power of the state to do so. This claim of fair handed action is bogus; you know it, we know it. Why the hate of Christianity? Because you know in your heart that there are moral standards and that you are guilty of failing these standards. Read Romans 1 and 2; Christians are as guilty of failing God's standards as anyone. The difference is that we are willing to turn to Him for forgiveness. You can too instead of trying to drive Him out of your lives. Give it some thought.

Becky, The Holy Spirit tells us that Jesus said "You give them something to eat" (in St Mark's Gospel, Chapter 6).

Jesus didn't say: "You twist a bunch of arms to get others to twist some money out of a whole lot of others' pockets to get them something to eat."

Your whole article fails to distinguish between the person and the government. The message of the Gospel is stronger and more personal than you appreciate. This personal responsibility and correspondence to Jesus's call to love has powerful and magnifying effects that taxing and coercion can never match.

Ok people. Shelve the nasty comments about others' faith. Every faith is absurd and asks you to accept the implausible, including atheism. That's why it's called "faith". So belive in your faith, and let the others believe in theirs, as the founding fathers envisioned.

We hear nothing about "the Ramadan Wars" or "Hanukkah Wars," etc., etc. -- because you hypocrites are constantly sniping for Christianity. If you're going to respect -- or even tolerate -- one religion, tolerate all. Or bash all. But this mocking and insulting Christianity alone shows how little evolved your minds are.

The war on Christmas is real and is waged by people who are disdainful of America's heartland and culture, and by a timid politically correct media who see safely in assaulting the values of the majority, even as they have profited from it.

Posted by: Observer20 | December 16, 2010 12:18 AM
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Th war on Christmas was created by you and the freaks on Fox TV to attract attention to your own lack of Christian spirit. Almighty God is more than likely weeping at the way you fools have so blasphemed His good works for the benefit of evil political gain and wealth. I am old and do not know of one person in my own realm who has ever disparaged Christmas or its spirit.
We never heard of such a thing until the money guys at Fox propaganda found a way to attract lunatics that they could exploit and so set upon them those nutbags O'Reilly, Beck, Hannity to make something out of nothing.

Your socalled heartland is not limited to the center of America, but starts at the water's edge and crosses the country. You exhibit the false notions that one must live within your imaginary circle to be thought Christian, but I tell you, you bear false witness to your fellow citizens. Stop repeating the lies of the false prophets at Fox and pick up your Bible. Fox has no knowledge of God, His message to all, or righteousness. Quit following and start opening your eyes to good people not propagandists. fritz

I believe Jesus might have said, as he does in Matthew 16:7, "o ye of little faith....."

Remember George Walker Bush received divine guidance from his other father. So the answer to the question must be...

The author fails to understand that it hardly matters that Jesus may not have been born on Dec 25th, or that the Christmas tree is from 18th century Germany and not Palestine or that shepherds were not out with their sheep in winter, or that there was no Santa then, or that no carols were sung because they had not been composed as yet. What matters is the celebration of the occurrence of the holy event, and if somebody picked Dec 25th some time ago for the celebration, let us celebrate it then. If some Germans 200 year ago decided to celebrate the event with a pine tree covered with family made ornaments, that is good enough, let us all do it. If some composers of the carols were drunkards, beat their wives, or were otherwise obnoxious, it does not matter; their carols are about Christmas and not about themselves, so let us sing it with gusto.
The war on Christmas is real and is waged by people who are disdainful of America's heartland and culture, and by a timid politically correct media who see safely in assaulting the values of the majority, even as they have profited from it.

GREENSTHEMAN, the difference between fools like you and the muslims is merely a bit of explosive. You're just as much a believer in absurdities as they are.

You are an idiot, I wish it weren't so, but there we are.

If you are not a Christian I do not see anyone demanding that non-Christians celebrate Christmas."

Yeah, right, and none of you idiots is boycotting businesses that don't kiss your pathetic butz for not saying merry christmas.
The rest of us enjoy the christmas season just fine without you christians telling us how we're supposed to do it. If you can't see that, then you must be ... a christian! Blind, delusional, and stupid.
Posted by: eezmamata | December 15, 2010 11:00 PM
Report Offensive Comment
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Yeah I can see by your post you are a perfect picture of tolerance, and intelligence. You don't even know who I am and yet you can make assumptions about who I am. Pardon me your greatness.

Did I miss something??? who is asking for government/taxpayer money to celebrate Christmas?? POSTED BY: GREENSTHEMAN

If you want to put your religious crap on public property then that is just what you're doing. Of course, we don't expect you to understand this. You are gullible, credulous, and foolish about these primitive and barbaric religions you believe in, but you do know about tax dollars.
of course, you don't seem to remember the establishment clause of the first amendment though do you?
Posted by: eezmamata | December 15, 2010 11:08 PM

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What is your problem man, I asked you a question. Answer me this how come it's OK for the government to use taxpayer money to help build mosques in other countries, but it's not OK a Christian prayer be held on Capitol hill and by the same token it's okfor muslims to hold prayers on Capitol Hill.

I won't make judgements on you personally because I don't know who you are,so show some restraint will you. Stop being prejudist against all Christians, you may even know one who you can actually get along with.

4. The theory that Christmas was instituted to take advantage of an existing Roman feast is a popular and plausible idea, but no actual evidence has even been found to support the theory. It is just as likely that the feast of Sol Invictus was instituted in 274 in an effort to paganize an existing Christian celebration.

Posted by: arimathean | December 15, 2010 5:03 PM

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You may want to research about Constantine, the emperor it will shed some light on this for you.

Did I miss something??? who is asking for government/taxpayer money to celebrate Christmas??

POSTED BY: GREENSTHEMAN

Of course, we don't expect you to understand this. You are gullible, credulous, and foolish about these primitive and barbaric religions you believe in, but you do know about tax dollars.

of course, you don't seem to remember the establishment clause of the first amendment though do you?

The spirit of the winter season and the festivals thereof are not all Christian, and not all your private property. If you want tolerance for your celebrations, and you should have it by all means, please extend that tolerance to others, and do not demand that public money and public government action be devoted to promoting YOUR faith's holidays to the exclusion of everyone else's.
Posted by: Catken1 | December 15, 2010 5:42 PM

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Did I miss something??? who is asking for government/taxpayer money to celebrate Christmas??

"If you are not a Christian I do not see anyone demanding that non-Christians celebrate Christmas."

Yeah, right, and none of you idiots is boycotting businesses that don't kiss your pathetic butz for not saying merry christmas.

The rest of us enjoy the christmas season just fine without you christians telling us how we're supposed to do it. If you can't see that, then you must be ... a christian! Blind, delusional, and stupid.

So in the holiday spirit, can we call a truce to these Christmas wars once and for all?

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My question to you Ms Garrison, who is it that attacks Christmas, is it not people that do not believe in Christ? is it not the atheists and pluralists?? Shouldn't that question be addressed to people who don't believe in God??

As a Christian, I do not have a problem with other people who celebrate their holidays what ever they may be, because it's different than mine, I do not attack their right to practice what ever faith they believe in, but I expect the same in return.

Christmas is a Christian celebration, and as such, i fail to understand the attack by atheist billboard signs that say " This season celebrate reason" that is inflamatory and confrontational to say the least. I would not find it as offensive if the billboard said for instance " as atheists we take this season to celebrate reason" honestly i would not find that wording confrontational at all.

I fail to see why this section is called " On Faith" a more suitable title should be " Against Faith" because that's what it's all about bashing people of " Faith " you ask if Jesus would fight in the Chrismas wars? As Christians we believe He died for our sins, and resurrected on the 3rd day. That is why we celebrate Chrismas and Easter.

If you are not a Christian I do not see anyone demanding that non-Christians celebrate Christmas.

I know people that celebrate the winter solstice, It's their choice.

This author has no idea about the true meaning of Christmas, and the Advent period preceding December 25th. Go to church once a week starting with the first Sunday of Advent (and listen.)

There you go, that's the real war on christmas right there. Christians telling everybody else how they're suppose to enjoy christmas, telling everybody else what they're suppose to say, how they're supposed to greet each other, what they're supposed to believe ... boycotting stores which don't kiss their delusion appropriately ...

What a disgusting display of just how juvenile religious people really are.

Jesus often speaks of ethics, specifically character ethics. When he speaks of concern for the poor and the great example of those that sacrifice their lives he is making a statement upon the character, not the process. It is YOU that must do these things, not a third party. It is YOU that must do these things, not because of the act's benefits and consequences, because He wants YOU to do them.

When communists, secularists and other statists bring up these verses to justify their agenda, I can only think of John 12:6. "He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it." It rings quite true I think. Party heads and bureaucrats do take a little off the top and use their authority to increase their own power and influence.

On the "Christmas wars" Jesus was desperate for someone to advocate for him. Except though when they took up a sword. He gave every one (his disciples, Jewish authorities, Romans) countless chances to reverse their sin and acknowledge Him. I think he would have no problem with non-violent expressions that advocate for Him.

SUX123, you claimed:

"No source, outside the Bible which also mentions Giants, talking bushes etc., has any record of an historical jesus."

My response: This is a bold assertion, especially in light of the 1st-century Jewish historian, Josephus. Not long after Jesus died, Josephus wrote as follows:

(63)"Now, there was at this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works -- a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure...He was [the] Christ; (64)and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold..." (Josephus "Antiquities," 18.3.3)

Fact check this quote in William Whiston, trans. "The Works of Josephus, Complete and Unabridged." Updated edition. Peabody, MA: Hendrickson, 1987. Page 480.

I think he'd be a bit annoyed at anyone claiming to represent his values while acting nasty, birthday or not.

However, these sorts of conflicts only serve to contradict the veracity of the believers dogma.

"Everyone should leave Christians alone.."

Sure if they could leave everyone else alone but they apparently can't.

Jesus wouldn't fight in any of his followers endless wars.

Becky, I enjoyed your article. Your St. Francis reference is particularly relevant. I have to think that the Christmas "wars" are a distraction for Christians. Much of the argument - and many of the comments - add much heat, but no light.

For Bible Trivia buffs, Jesus did celebrate Hanukkah. John 10: 22 - 23 says that Jesus was walking in the Temple "at the time of the festival the of the Dedication... It was winter..." The books of Maccabees relate the story of the Jewish revolt from which the festival developed, but the passage in John is the only place in the Bible where the festival is mentioned by name.

In all the debate, lets also remember what the Angels said: Glory to God in the highest and on earth peace, good will towards men - and women!

Jesus would have done exactly what the Pope said he did. no more, no less.

It's about storytelling, people.

And fictional characters rarely demonstrate free will -

It will be whatever you agree he did, is basically what he did.

Recall how Galileo was going Copernican on the the Catholic Church, the Pope of the day had him Incarcerated: i.e. WRONG with the church?

And you expected a little "truth" to go along with this option?

Nothing that I know of the Jesus Church is based on reality, except your thinking it's/he's real.

Really, really disturbing that you all think it's/he's real.

..."I agree with the article 1000 percent and I know Jesus would not like the Republicans "AT ALL!

Why do we all have to kowtow to some Jew's birthday?

This author has no idea about the true meaning of Christmas, and the Advent period preceding December 25th. Go to church once a week starting with the first Sunday of Advent (and listen.)

Captn_Ahab:

Hanukkah was instituted by the Hasmoneans, according to Josephus, but by the first century the Hasmoneans were out of power. Celebrating Hanukkah under those circumstances might have been taken as a pro-Hasmonean (and implicitly anti-Roman) statement. So it is not clear that it continued in the immediate post-Hasmonean period. In any case, in the first century it would not have been nearly as big a deal as it is in modern America. It was not on par with the three major Jewish festivals.

Sux123:

Actually, there are early non-Christian sources that mention Jesus. The same Josephus mentioned above (writing in 93), for starters. Also Tacitus (c. 116) and Pliny the Younger (c. 112). These mentions are all brief, and that of Josephus is problematic (it was apparently expanded with Christian interpolations at a later date), but they do exist.

The Founding Fathers got it right. Anyone who wants to believe in his or her primitive superstitions is free to do so. Since the Christmas season is one of buying and receiving gifts maybe we should just call it Giftmas.

I have a sharp pain in my posterior.

It must be the "holiday season" again.

You know, Xmas is like a bladder infection. Getting one once a year is too often.

Aramithean:

Flavius Josephus the Jew mentions the celebration of Channukah. He lived very close to the time of Jesus. It is therefore likely that Jesus either celebrated Channukah or was certainly aware of it. One thing is for sure, as an observant Jew, he would not have been
celebrating the incarnation of God into man. Very, very, un-Judaic and pagan! He would probably have said, "Feh!", but in Aramaic.

"Everyone should leave Christians alone - and allow them to celebrate CHRISTMAS as they see fit."

Who's denying you the right to celebrate anything as you see fit? Go ahead, by all means.

You are not entitled to taxpayer money or the services of the government to do so, of course, unless such money and services are available to all religions and to atheists and agnostics likewise.

But with your own money, on your own time, you can celebrate openly, visibly, and to your heart's content. Christians are doing that all over, in case you hadn't noticed. No one is actually stopping you from talking about Christ, Christmas, religion, worship, Christianity, or any other related topic. You can stand on the street corners and tell everyone you meet about Christ and how Christmas is all about him, if you like. You can print brochures and hand them out. You can put Nativity scenes or write Christian messages in big red letters on your lawn (if your HOA doesn't object, and I'm not responsible for your HOA - hate the things myself). You can even make yourself obnoxious by obstreperously lecturing every harassed store clerk who wishes you "Happy Holidays," because it's FAR more important that you MAKE that clerk acknowledge that YOUR religion is more important than ANY of their other customers' religions than that you accept cheerfully given wishes for your happiness in a courteous and friendly spirit.

I'm sure it feels righteous and warm to think of yourself as a persecuted martyr unable to celebrate your most sacred holiday without being censored, but it really isn't true.

"It is not about INCLUDING YOU in someone else's religion."

No one's asking to be included in Christianity - but when a public government or agency is sponsoring a celebration, it is only fair that everyone they serve be included in that party. When public agencies throw parades or have parties or send out cards to constituents, it is only reasonable that all constituents be included in such, rather than having some publicly-funded events be private religious occasions For Christians Only.

The spirit of the winter season and the festivals thereof are not all Christian, and not all your private property. If you want tolerance for your celebrations, and you should have it by all means, please extend that tolerance to others, and do not demand that public money and public government action be devoted to promoting YOUR faith's holidays to the exclusion of everyone else's.

The First Amendment is about tolerance

Everyone should leave Christians alone - and allow them to celebrate CHRISTMAS as they see fit.

NOT as THEY see fit, but as the Christians see fit.

Is anyone telling any other religion how to celebrate their holidays - or to substitute the name of the holiday for the word "holiday?"

Please - if you don't want to be TOLERANT - LEAVE THE COUNTRY

It is not about INCLUDING YOU in someone else's religion.

And it isn't about giving you a RIGHT TO BE FREE OF SEEING OTHER'S CELEBRATE THEIR RELIGION.

It is ABOUT RELIGIOUS FREEDOM - allowing people to do what they want with their holidays.

People do not have a right to have "sanitized" everything they see or hear during December.

It is about tolerance.

HOW hard is it for these people to be TOLERANT ????

Someone in their family decided to immigrate here - come here and be accepting of the Freedom here.

It is not right for them to start to DICTATE TO OTHERS NOW.

I tell you what

Tell everyone to celebrate your birthday - but then tell them they are not allowed to mention your name.

Or talk about your birth at all.

.

Where to start . . .

1. Jesus probably did not celebrate Hanukkah. If that feast was even observed in the first century, it was not have been a big deal.

2. Isis is not Babylonian (she's Egyptian) and nature is not her main portfolio (which includes motherhood, magic, and fertility). I'm not familiar with her son Horus being celebrated on December 25. The big feast in Egypt occurred 11 days later when the Nile flooded.

3. We know for a fact that Christmas was already being celebrated on December 25 in the Western Roman Empire by AD 311, and it might have been celebrated as early as ca. 250.

4. The theory that Christmas was instituted to take advantage of an existing Roman feast is a popular and plausible idea, but no actual evidence has even been found to support the theory. It is just as likely that the feast of Sol Invictus was instituted in 274 in an effort to paganize an existing Christian celebration.

well said, Catken1! Thank you.

" Well, for starters historians aren't exactly sure of the exact date Jesus of Nazareth was born,.."
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Here is one for the Birthers - there is no evidence that jesus was, infact, ever born. No source, outside the Bible which also mentions Giants, talking bushes etc., has any record of an historical jesus. None, zippo, nada - not even a Cerificate of Live Birth. And teh Romans were sticklers for record keeping too.

You know, my atheist friends, my agnostic friends, my Jewish friends, Muslim friends, Hindu friends, Buddhist friends, foreign friends and American friends -- we're all enjoying the Christmas season really fine, thank you.

It's good to spend time with each other, to smile with each other, to wish each other the best ... it's just good. And none of us are telling anybody else how they're supposed to do being doing it.

It seems the only people who aren't enjoying the season are ... Christians. Strange, you hear all this talk about love and peace on earth and blah blah blah. Nobody hates christmas like a christian.

"And what would Jesus think of a religious editor who supported taking the name "Christ" out of Christmas and prayer out of our schools???"

I don't know.

But I do know that no one is trying to take the name "Christ" out of Christmas - all anyone is trying to do is include all the public in public celebrations of winter holidays for which our tax dollars pay, not just Christians. Christians are still and always have been perfectly free to celebrate the religious aspects of their holidays themselves. From where I sit, churches all over are advertising their Christmas services and choir concerts, Nativity scenes and other Christmas-specific decorations appear on lawns all over the neighborhood, Christians walk around singing carols happily or wishing others "Merry Christmas", and I've no doubt that many houses around me resound with reverent prayers on a nightly basis. That's all just fine. If you go to church, pray whenever you feel the urge, sing hymns at the top of your lungs, and celebrate a religious holiday with religious reverence, why should it bother you that the local taxpayer-funded parade or town center decoration or whatever is called by a nonsectarian title, and does not refer to religion? If you get cards with Nativity scenes and devout messages on them from your friends and family, why should it bother you to get a generic "holiday" card from a local politician who represents constituents of multiple faiths, or a local business that serves customers of multiple faiths? If you can buy a bulletin board and advertise your faith to anyone within miles, why should it bother you that an atheist group can do the same? Why should you need government and government-sponsored activities to promote your holiday, when you seem to do such a good job of celebrating and enjoying it yourselves?

Christian children, and all other children, are likewise free to pray in school, as long as they do not interfere with other children's right to learn. What they may not do is enlist the teacher or other publicly-paid employee to promote their prayers and their faith for them, or use peer pressure and school time to push their faith on other kids.

Which is fair, and if you don't think so, how would you feel about having your child pressured or ordered by the teacher to pray in the Muslim fashion, or to pray to Thor, Lakshmi or Amaterasu, or to recite a statement affirming atheism? It is just as offensive to push non-Christian children to recite Christian prayers with you.

Hey GAROTH, why don't you an Hector6 get a room, ok?

Even more fun than hearing rabid christians screaming at those of us who don't believe is hearing rabid christians screaming at those who believe the "wrong thing"

Yup, christians hate apostates even more than they hate atheists. Hey, t'is the season.

I wouldn't be surprised if non-believers stop beating Republicans with the Jesus-club shortly after Republicans stop insisting on creches on the courthouse lawn, prayers at political meetings and the prohibition of same sex marriage on the grounds that it's against God's plan.

If they invoke religion to support some of their policies, why are they surprised if someone points out that, by-golly, some of their other policies make the baby Jesus cry?

There is nothing very Christ-like in Christianity.

Come on now, MINI2, at least Ayn Rand wrote her own stuff, and really existed.

Hector6, you are still uninformed, and are conflating differing historical times. The church did not have a "tithe" that went throughout the church. That was peculiar to Israel, and some of it, sometimes, went to help the poor. Usually, if these matters were handled at all, it was by extended family or tribe - don't have those today, but they were also societal constructs; today we have Medicaid, etc. because many people do not have people to take care of them, and they provide a 'safety net" in a modern world, where people have to travel to find work, where people often live past their forties, etc.

The Jewish culture was a bit better about taking care of societies' underside than Rome, which simply left poor people to starve to death.

As I said, for an example of the state's responsibility, go back to the "Old" Testament; it is very clear there. It is also in line with Jesus' teachings about care for the "least." Jesus did not speak to Herod or Caesar, but he did speak to the Sadducees, who were in charge of the temple, proclaiming this same message to them. Simply because he did not speak to Caesar or Herod does not mean that his message would have changed, or that it would not remain in line with the prophets - in fact, at least according to the "New" Testament, he saw himself as in line with the prophets and their message.

And again, although our Constitution does not proclaim its business to be 'social work," it's business is, according to it, "to provide for the common good." Welfare is part of that, and has passed - many times - the question of "constitutionality." More to the point in this discussion of "faith," is what the Bible says about the function of government. The Bible is very clear. How about reading it?

Oh - and if you want to make charity the business of churches, how about imposing a ten percent tax on everyone so that we can do that? I'd happily agree to that. Otherwise, you're just blowing hot air.

Fishnoises, JohnnyWang:

You don't have to be a Christian to point out that many Republicans are hypocrites for fighting these bogus "Christmas wars" in Jesus' name on the one hand while preaching war and "greed is good" on the other. Pointing out such hypocrisy is also not the same as saying Jesus is on the side of liberals.

These Christmas wars are nothing more than old men bemoaning the fact that their set of beliefs no longer dominate US society as they did in the past. There's probably also a bit of political expediency involved. The GOP does not pass up an opportunity to fear monger and suggesting that some moral degenerates want to take Christmas away is great for stirring up part of the base.

How long will it take the US citizenry to recognize, understand, and react to the blatant hypocrisy of the 'Publicans?

They wrap themselves in the Stars and Stripes and pretend to be PATRIOTS and in the pages of the Bible (preferably the OT), calling themselves Christians. Yet their stars do not serve in the military or do go AWOL, and their "principles" are out of Ayn Rand.

As to Christ, if there was such a person, I believe he would weep.

Don't you, sooner or later, just have to say to these folks, "Tehre are more important things to do than fight about nativities and "Merry Christmas," if you are a Christian. Get a life - maybe Jesus' life?"

Only a theocon bully, insecure in his or her own faith, would use the words "Christmas" and "war" in the same breath.

Undoubtedly Jesus would be unhappy with those exploiting His good name for their own narrow political purposes. That includes those awful Republicans of the religious right.

It also includes you, Becky.

The difference between Becky and the Religious Right is that the Religious Right exploits Jesus as supporting moral values that they hold. Becky exploits Jesus to lambast moral values held by people disliked by Becky.

Right because a Christmas tree has nothing at all to do with a German tradition of reenacting the fall in Eden on Christmas Eve, to then celebrate the hope of redemption on Christmas morning. Nor why red ornaments are still the most popular color ornament sold. Ornament or apple?

Hector6, you are ignorant, both of the message Jesus was sending, and of scripture as a whole. If you would actually bother to read the story, you would see that the context was that there were two sides plotting to do him in, and thus the question concerning the payment of taxes. If he answered in the affirmative, "Yes, pay them!" he would lose the crowds, which were among the most heavily-taxed people in history (how about 70-80% as your required tax load?); if he said, "No, don't pay them," he would be guilty of insurrection, and crucified (as he finally was). He asked those who were trying to trap him to give him a coin. The one they gave him bore the figure of the emperor, and the words, "Caesar is Lord," on it. The very fact that they had this coinage, rather than the temple coinage, showed who they belonged to, and exposed their hypocracy. Then Jesus said, "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God, the things that are God's." The question then becomes, "What is Caesar's, and what is God's?" To those of faith, everything belongs to God. To those whose God is Caesar, everything belongs to him (in Jesus' time, that is - now we are willing to make a little "spiritual" area of life "not Caesar's." Here everything seems to belong to him - God gets heaven, "some day and far away," but not here, where Caesar rules.).

The answer to this lies in what Jesus said about care for the poor, what the Apostle's said, and the example of the early church, as found in Acts, and in the message of the prophets, who decclared that it is the first duty of the state - even more so than protecting itself - to care for the poor and those who cannot protect themselves. The king is to act toward them as God does - he was to protect them against the interests of the powerful. It is only in this context that the state has the power to even defend itself, in that it is protecting those who cannot protect themselves.

Thankfully, I'm an athiest, and unaffected by all this bovine manure.

Jesus saves but Moses invests.

When Jesus said render unto Ceaser what is Ceaser's and unto God what is God's Ceaser did not provide welfare, medicare or unemployment insurance. Thoes were church issues paid with the 10% tithe. Helping the poor was certainly a core message for Jesus but he did not preach it to Rome or Herrod but in the Synagogue. Nothing in our founding documents says the government is a social work organization. This is a function our churchers and private charities should control, not government.

And what would Jesus think of a religious editor who supported taking the name "Christ" out of Christmas and prayer out of our schools???

this war on christmas bs was declared by the right wing social conservatives as a way to divide everybody.

They want christians to feel more christian I suppose, and look how well it's working - look at the unmitigated hatred coming out of the christians when they have anything to say to anybody who doesn't do christmas according to their rules.

You people are despicable.

Great article, Becky, and I agree with all the points you made.

I am a Christian who cannot help but shake his head constantly wondering how on Earth Christ has been mauled and manipulated so badly by the Republican Party.

People believe what they want to believe, and I think self-proselytization and self-delusion are mostly to blame, although that tends to be the case with most faiths.

Hubristic exceptionalism and religious intolerance have reached truly dangerous levels in our country, and those illnesses, coupled with the desire to attack other countries in order to steal their resources in the disguise of democratization or God's will, are what's really wrong with this country.

“Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s.” Fundamentalists want their religion to dominate the public square when they should be focused on their hearts and homes and churches. Why the whining when a government building or school doesn't promote your religion? You are free to pray, but not to force others in your prayer.

Christmas is Mithra's Birthday, not Christ's. The Christians stole it to make it easier to recruit the Roman legionaires who were devoted to Miithra. I thought all bloggers knew that.

I agree that Jesus, like Mithra, may not have ever existed.

In any case, the early Christians,and their cousins, the Gnostics, who were purged, spoke with many voices. Many voices, voices which were also so frequently forged that it is hard to discern who said what about what. It's all myths anyway.

What exactly does "Christmas wars" refer to? The practice of Christianity and other religions/faith/pagan traditions in the depth of winter, in a pluralistic society? Or how anyone speculates Jesus would feel about tax cuts for everyone -- including the wealthy -- during these economic times? In either case, maybe the use of this term is just divisive. Aren't there enough real problems to solve and things to argue about, without fanning the flames of derision among people of different political and other persuasions? Or maybe this simply makes for interesting online conversation, and selling of newspapers. After all, no conflict, no story, right?

Yes, of course Jesus was a proponent of big government programs as the primary vehicle of charity in society. Just look in your Bible. It's right there in....umm, just a second, let me find it....Oh well, I can't find it, but I'm sure it's in there somewhere.

"Progressives" worship government like Conservatives worship God, so I shouldn't be surprised at how they are incapable of understanding how charity can be delivered by means other than government and equally unaware at how inneffective government charity tends to be. But it still irks me every time a smartest-girl-in-the-room progressive mocks small government conservatives as hypocrites. Oh well, what else should I expect to read in the WaPo?

Um....why is it that the same people who insist on a separation of church and state also preach that the Gospel is all about promoting social justice!!! Why bring Jesus into the picture NOW??? What a bunch of hyprocital nonsense. You have to have a relationship with Jesus to even begin to have clue as to what he would do!!!! Keeping religion and faith out of politics only when you think it offend others, and then bringing it in to promote social agendas is pathetic. You can't pick and choose thsoe areas int he gospel to suit your desires. It isn't about you!!! It isn't about Christianity! It's about Christ.

as one who has read the new testament, i would say that jesus, if he existed at all, would definitely voice strong opinions in the so-called "christmas wars". read the quotations ascribed directly to him and you can see that he got into people's faces, and didn't back down from an argument. So much so that the very people he claimed to be leading - the jews - literally begged the romans to kill him, which they eventually did.

What would Jesus think of the Christmas Wars?

"Gee, I thought I was born in August."