eezmamata Part I

You wrote, "What do you think really happened to these people, these believers in other gods, Zeus, Thor, whatever. Sure, lots of people claim it, but like you some people really believed it."

I might not know what "really happened to these people" but I believe that these were people attempting to "make some sense" of the place in which they lived.

Science, with the God-given ability that we have to figure things out, is "figuring out" the workings of our physical world and by world, I don't just mean earth.

I really don't know much about "Zeus, Thor, whatever" but I take it that some, if not most, of these were considered responsible for certain aspects of the world in which these "people" lived, is that right?

There is much that science does not have a clue about, such as:

As far as physicality, was there once nothing?

The evolution of life is one thing but where did "life" come from?

Did "life" just happen to happen when enough "atoms" got into the right order?

Was there a "wisdom" behind these atoms getting into the right order and for that matter was there a "wisdom" behind subatomic particles getting into the right order to become atoms?

When "life" leaves a "body", any body, does that "life" cease to be or was it an illusion of "life" or was it something more than the sum of the "biological" parts?

You then wrote, "Lots of muslims make the claim, what do you think about them when they say allah is speaking through them? Some of them believe it as surely as you believe your god is speaking through you."

I don't know what claims you are speaking of that "Muslims" make but they do not believe that God became One of us and they believe that it is "beneath" God to become One of us so it should be pretty obvious to anyone, believer or non-believer, that the god of islam is not the same as the God of the bible.

eezmamata Part II

You also wrote, "Why is your god only talking to you, and nobody, if anybody else? What makes you so special?"

I never said that I was special, just a messenger, when you meet God, if you still want to, you can ask God why He chose me.

You then asked, "What happens to the rest of us when somebody, say someone like Bush, believes your god is speaking through him, believes that your god wants him to start armageddon?"

How should I know, I am just here to tell the world that God's Plan, which God has had since before creation, is for All, ultimately, to be with God in God's Kingdom.

You then wrote, "Will you believe it's true, will you be supporting this president when he pushes the button, killing billions of people ... I mean if he tells a good story, one that fits into your particular version of all of this ..."

Seems as if you haven't read anything that I wrote, what have I written that has anything at all to do with the "scenario's" that you speak of?

You then wrote, "Do you really wonder why people consider folks like you insane ... do you really?"

As I have already said, this seems to put me into pretty Good company.

Do you actually read what I write and think about what it says rather than that it is just something else written by one of those "believers"?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

cecilg Part I

You wrote, "Lately, however, your writing has changed or perhaps I am just more aware of how radically we differ on several important points."

I don't think that my "writing has changed", I still basically say that God's Victory is Total and that a tie is utterly unacceptable and it very well could be that the "radicalness" of what I am saying is coming thru.

You then wrote, "I (and it seems several other writers here) think that what we Know is the result of empirical data or reason AND before we claim it as knowledge it must be verified."

I understand this and as I have pointed out, I believe, not know, but believe that any "knowledge" that God Is has to come thru a "revelation" and I, also, understand that this "revelation" is not in any "verifiable" category, so to speak.

You then wrote, "You said, "The thing is, I do not have to "believe" what happened to me actually happened, I know it happened.""

What I was/am trying to point out in this statement is that I can see and understand how people would have a hard time, to put it mildly, to believe that what happened to me, actually happened.

You then wrote, "No one can PROVE you wrong, but the problem is that your statement is unverifiable to anyone other than yourself."

Actually, in the way that things are "verifiable", it is not even "verifiable" to me.

I have said that God "knew" that I needed to "know", as opposed to believe, some things, for me to even be able to attempt to do the "job" God chose me to do.

It isn't the "fact" that I met God that I am trying to get across but that God's Plan is, ultimately, for ALL.

I was told in a dream that "only I could say it", this was after I met God and met satan and experienced hell and experienced spiritual death, I had no idea what it was that "only I could say".

I dove into bible studies, both denominational and non-denominational and Jewish, and at the beginning I mostly listened and did not speak except for questions that came to me.

Jesus said, "I will send the Holy Spirit to guide you...", I not only believe that He meant this but the "operative" word is "you", which means all of us if we are willing to be guided.

I have noticed that the Holy Spirit speaks thru many people unbeknownst to them and that there are those in the bible that the Holy Spirit spoke thru that some may not even have noticed.

Case in point: When Pilate said, "What I have written, I have written", in response to the "religious" that wanted the wording of the sign on Jesus's cross to be changed.

cecilg Part II

You then wrote, "I (and several other writers) think your statement is your belief, which is perfectly alright, but we cannot accept it as true, as a fact."

I understand but as I have pointed out, I know that there is a difference between know and believe and I try to be precise when I write something and distinguish between when I mean "know" and when I mean "believe".

There is much that I believe and there is only some that I know and I have also pointed out that many interchange these words when in fact they are not interchangeable, there is a BIG difference between know and believe, even fervently believe.

You then wrote, "We have an irreconcilable difference of opinion which makes profitable discussion impossible."

This very well could be but that will not keep me from doing the "job" that God chose me to do.

You also wrote, "They ALL claim to know that they are speaking for God, but some must be mistaken for they do not all say the same thing."

I agree and time will tell.

You then wrote, "The problem is (as with point one above) neither your statements about being chosen nor the statements by the many preachers are in any way verifiable except to yourself (themselves). We who hold a different view can't prove you wrong, but we cannot take you seriously."

That's fine, have you ever seen the two statements that I have written numerous times on these posts?

They are:

God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof.

and

It is important what one does and why one does it and what one knows.

God is not the egotistical maniac that many would have people think God to be, if God were even remotely like what some "conceive" of God to be, who would want to have anything to do with such a being?

I guess one could say that, at least part of, my message is to get people to think.

If God is All Knowing, (past, present, future) and God did not come up with a Plan that is ultimately for ALL, than what kind of God is that?

Surely not one that I could be thankful to.

You then wrote, "You say there is an afterlife. I believe, but do not know, there IS NO afterlife - no heaven or hell."

Actually, I look past heaven and hell to the new heavens and the new earth, exactly what these are, I do not have a clue, but since God is a Being of Pure Love rather than Love being an attribute of God, I trust that the Fruition of God's Plan is something to look forward to.

You then wrote, "I could be wrong. Suddenly very hot in Texas."

You live in Texas, I was stationed in Texas for awhile when I was in the service.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

The christian god apparently holds humanity culpable for the sins of Adam and Eve, we are guilty merely by being born. Their god holds us to be disgusting. A nice guy, this god.

So Adam and Eve were just doing their thing, this satan that their god created turned into a talking snake and convinced eve to eat of the tree of knowledge ... or something like that.

And bam, we're guilty. So Adam and Eve started having sex, Cain and Abel were born, Cain killed Abel ... I suppose we're guilty of that too. Where all the other people came from is mystery, did Cain and Adama "know" Eve, is that where the rest of us came from?

In any case, we're guilty of things we didn't do by inheritance.

So, why isn't their god guilty of all of this? It created satan, it created adam and eve, it let cain kill abel ...

why are we guilty of things we didn't do, but their god isn't guilty of things it did do? Why are we guilty of falling for this satan's lies ... why didn't their god create humans invulnerable to satan ... why are we guilty of that?

And really, how does their loving god, which cares so much for us, loves us so much, that it created an evil twin who can fool us like that, how is it that their god isn't guilty of this?

This loving god, who so loved us that it made itself into a human being then sacrificed itself to the humans it created, then blamed us for that murder .... and if we don't believe this incredible nonsense we have to burn in hell for eternity .. but it loves us ....

What an incredible crock of sht, how can any adult believe this crap, just what makes it possible for people to believe this nonsense?

Pope Benedictus 16 explain that there is no heaven and no hel. The world vieuw of the bible is a fantasie. Modern science proves that: (bible chptr 12 v 7, "The Lord appeared to Abraham and said,..." and Matthew chptr 3, the baptism of Jezus V 17 "And a voice from heaven said,...") Abram and Jezus are schizophrenic. Angels, devils, saints and god, do nothing in the life. It is all fantasie of the people." Kardinal Godfried Daneels of Belgium say:"At the moment that we know that, is religion useless." Pleace stop the nonsense religions.

Who wrote it?

The subject of heaven and hell clearly have been debated since man could pass a thought.

Some books sit on the shelves marked down 75%, and still they sit...

Sad to see bargain basement pricing and no takers.

I bid $1

Thomas (March 5, 2111 – this one did not go through)

A while back (a year, 2 years?)I first encountered something you had written and I was impressed. Your piece was well written and generally rational. It led me to think you were NOT a traditional, fundamental, evangelical Christian --I thought that a favorable sign. It was obvious that you believed in God in a way that I did not, but that did not concern me because I presumed you to be open to consideration of different views.

As time passed I continued to look forward to encounters with your posts. Lately, however, your writing has changed or perhaps I am just more aware of how radically we differ on several important points.

First, for any debate or discussion to be profitable their must be agreement as to what may be entered as knowledge. Or at least there must be a respectful understanding of how this notion of Knowledge is viewed by all participants.

I (and it seems several other writers here) think that what we Know is the result of empirical data or reason AND before we claim it as knowledge it must be verified. You may or may not agree, but in some cases you also seem to think that knowledge comes from a revelation or personal experience of God. You said, "The thing is, I do not have to "believe" what happened to me actually happened, I know it happened."

No one can PROVE you wrong, but the problem is that your statement is unverifiable to anyone other than yourself. I (and several other writers) think your statement is your belief, which is perfectly alright, but we cannot accept it as true, as a fact. We have an irreconcilable difference of opinion which makes profitable discussion impossible.

Two other statements you offered as fact are these: "God does choose people, now and then, to speak, I happen to be one of them....God chose me to speak,.... "

You are not alone in your thinking that God chose you to do something special. In fact Huckaby and ALL evangelical preachers know (or claim to know) that they have been CALLED BY GOD to the Christian ministry. They ALL claim to know that they are speaking for God, but some must be mistaken for they do not all say the same thing.

The problem is (as with point one above) neither your statements about being chosen nor the statements by the many preachers are in any way verifiable except to yourself (themselves). We who hold a different view can't prove you wrong, but we cannot take you seriously.

You say there is an afterlife. I believe, but do not know, there IS NO afterlife - no heaven or hell.

I could be wrong. Suddenly very hot in Texas.

eezmamata |

You can't reason with religious people, otherwise there wouldn't be any religious people.
9/11 was a religious act by very devout believers in god and an afterlife and look where it got them. They were just as deluded as Moses Whatsisname. They were just as hypnotized - just as certain. The thing is we ALL KNOW they're dead, even though THEY expected Paradise with virgins; we know better. They're just dead, as all things will be despite religious delusions.

You then wrote, "Humans have been claiming visits from the gods for uncounted centuries, do you suppose they believed it was a true god experience any less than you believe yours to have been the same ... only you have the real god, and they were just insane?"

You are the one saying that "they were just insane", I never said that.

Alright, Thomas, let's try the question another way.

What do you think really happened to these people, these believers in other gods, Zeus, Thor, whatever. Sure, lots of people claim it, but like you some people really believed it.

Lots of muslims make the claim, what do you think about them when they say allah is speaking through them? Some of them believe it as surely as you believe your god is speaking through you.

What about the snake handlers, do you know that bunch? What do you think about them? They claim your god is protecting them from being bitten by serpents. They drink strychnine and claim they are protected from the poisoning?

Do you believe in faith healing, like Bennie Henn or Jimmy Swaggart and those types do? Why won't your god actually heal an amputee?

Why is your god only talking to you, and nobody, if anybody else? What makes you so special?

What happens to the rest of us when somebody, say someone like Bush, believes your god is speaking through him, believes that your god wants him to start armageddon?

Will you believe it's true, will you be supporting this president when he pushes the button, killing billions of people ... I mean if he tells a good story, one that fits into your particular version of all of this ...

Do you really wonder why people consider folks like you insane ... do you really?

Thomas

I just tried to send a long and clever post, but it would not go through. Just as well. I disagreed with you on several points. Maybe later.

Thomas

A while back (a year, 2 years?)I first encountered something you had written and I was impressed. Your piece was well written and generally rational. It led me to think you were NOT a traditional, fundamental, evangelical Christian --I thought that a favorable sign. It was obvious that you believed in God in a way that I did not, but that did not concern me because I presumed you to be open to consideration of different views.

As time passed I continued to look forward to encounters with your posts. Lately, however, your writing has changed or perhaps I am just more aware of how radically we differ on several important points.

First, for any debate or discussion to be profitable their must be agreement as to what may be entered as knowledge. Or at least there must be a respectful understanding of how this notion of Knowledge is viewed by all participants.

I (and it seems several other writers here) think that what we Know is the result of empirical data or reason AND before we claim it as knowledge it must be verified. You may or may not agree, but in some cases you also seem to think that knowledge comes from a revelation or personal experience of God. You said, "The thing is, I do not have to "believe" what happened to me actually happened, I know it happened."

No one can PROVE you wrong, but the problem is that your statement is unverifiable to anyone other than yourself. I (and several other writers) think your statement is your belief, which is perfectly alright, but we cannot accept it as true, as a fact. We have an irreconcilable difference of opinion which makes profitable discussion impossible.

Two other statements you offered as fact are these: "God does choose people, now and then, to speak, I happen to be one of them....God chose me to speak,.... "

You are not alone in your thinking that God chose you to do something special. In fact Huckaby and ALL evangelical preachers know (or claim to know) that they have been CALLED BY GOD to the Christian ministry. They ALL claim to know that they are speaking for God, but some must be mistaken for they do not all say the same thing.

The problem is (as with point one above) neither your statements about being chosen nor the statements by the many preachers are in any way verifiable except to yourself (themselves). We who hold a different view can't prove you wrong, but we cannot take you seriously.

You say there is an afterlife. I believe, but do not know, there IS NO afterlife - no heaven or hell.

I could be wrong. Suddenly very hot in Texas.

Sara121

You asked about the afterlife.

The afterlife envisioned by those that believe that we are no more than worm food after we die, which is their way of saying that there is no afterlife, I consider a much better propect than those that believe that God is a loser, that is, that some will go where it is way better than words could possibly convey and that some will go to a horror beyond words for ever and ever and ever and ever and... .

How anyone could sing "praise" to something like this is beyond me.

How anyone could be "thankful" to something such as this is beyond me.

God is not the "loser" that many believe God to be and God is not the "loser" that many, it appears, want God to be.

As I have said, God has had His Plan since before creation and God's Plan is for, ultimately, ALL to be in God's Kingdom.

I suppose, but do not know, that some of those that are so intent on getting to "the good place" and not caring at all about those that they think will be in hell for ever and ever and ever and ever... just might find out that they have made a "detour", so to speak, on the way to "the good place".

I wish hell on absolutely no one but it is the person who goes that custom built it for themself and it is by God's Actions according to God's Plan that will bring about their release.

See you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

eezmamata

You wrote, "Let's ask Voltaire: He who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

Man seems very inventive in his ways to "rationalize" his atrocities against his fellow man.

As far as if something is an "absurdity" or not, time will tell.

You then wrote, "You are very likely misunderstanding the term insanity here as well. Your christianity itself is not the insanity, it is a symptom of your insanity."

I had answered you, "If this was directly to me, I thank you, this puts me in pretty Good company considering that many thought Jesus was insane.", so would you consider being Jewish a sympton of Jesus's insanity?

You then wrote, "Humans have been claiming visits from the gods for uncounted centuries, do you suppose they believed it was a true god experience any less than you believe yours to have been the same ... only you have the real god, and they were just insane?"

You are the one saying that "they were just insane", I never said that.

You then asked, "Who will you step on to maintain your comforting delusions?"

You can think of my experiences any way that you wish but why would you think that I would "step on" anyone concerning them?

You then wrote, "Your church in particular is a fine example of what religion does when its claims to absolute truth are shown, by science, by investigation, by reasoning are shown to be crap. It isn't the only religion that does it,"

I was not speaking for "my church", as you put it, but for God.

What "claims to absolute truth" shown "by science, by investigation, by reasoning are shown to be crap" are you speaking about?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

acebojangles

You wrote, "I always hope that technological advancement and increases in scientific knowledge will make people more reasonable. Instead some folks use modern computers and the internet to spew their superstitious bronze age nonsense."

Do you think that "modern computers and the internet" should be censored for this reason?

Shouldn't people be allowed to make up their own minds?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Sara121

You wrote, "Why is it so important to you for everyone else to "know" that there is an afterlife."

I guess one could say that it is part of my "job".

You then wrote, "It seems to bother you quite a bit that there are people who have no use for the idea."

Might seem that way but it doesn't.

You also wrote, "If people who have no use for the idea are otherwise good people, then what difference should it make to you or god if they don't buy into an afterlife?"

Why would the fact that some "are otherwise good people" have anymore of a difference on me in pointing out that God is our Judge and that there is an afterlife than that some are not good people?

The fact that there is an afterlife is not the only thing that I have been writing and speaking about here and other places.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

What you think of as my "insanity" sure does seem to bother some people and you seem to be one of them, why is that?

Let's ask Voltaire: He who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.

You are very likely misunderstanding the term insanity here as well. Your christianity itself is not the insanity, it is a symptom of your insanity.

Humans have been claiming visits from the gods for uncounted centuries, do you suppose they believed it was a true god experience any less than you believe yours to have been the same ... only you have the real god, and they were just insane?

Who will you step on to maintain your comforting delusions? Your church in particular is a fine example of what religion does when its claims to absolute truth are shown, by science, by investigation, by reasoning are shown to be crap. It isn't the only religion that does it, it's just the latest.

I always hope that technological advancement and increases in scientific knowledge will make people more reasonable. Instead some folks use modern computers and the internet to spew their superstitious bronze age nonsense.

Thomas,

I'll ask a different way. Why is it so important to you for everyone else to "know" that there is an afterlife. It seems to bother you quite a bit that there are people who have no use for the idea. If people who have no use for the idea are otherwise good people, then what difference should it make to you or god if they don't buy into an afterlife?

YEAL9

You wrote, "Note: Professor JD Crossan, an On Faith panelist and author of over 20 books on the historical Jesus and the historical Paul, does not believe in the afterlife i.e. souls are not a big ticket item with him (see his book, Who is Jesus?)."

I don't know what else he might be wrong about but he is wrong in this "belief" of his.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Note: Professor JD Crossan, an On Faith panelist and author of over 20 books on the historical Jesus and the historical Paul, does not believe in the afterlife i.e. souls are not a big ticket item with him (see his book, Who is Jesus?).

eezmamata

You wrote, "That's what I ask of you, is your insanity dangerous to you or anybody else?"

What you think of as my "insanity" sure does seem to bother some people and you seem to be one of them, why is that?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Sara121

You wrote, "You didn't answer the question. If I am a kind and generous person to the people around me, why should god care if I believe in the supernatural stuff?"

My answer to that was: God is not the egotistical maniac that some think God to be and It is important what one does and why one does it and what one knows.

Also, if some of those that are trying to shove the bible down other people's throat would look and see that it says: "Faith is a gift that no one should boast", seems as if there are some "boasters" out there.

You then asked, "Why need me to validate his existence?"

God does choose people, now and then, to speak, I happen to be one of them.

You then asked, "And why should anyone else care?"

I don't quite understand this question but people can decide for themself what they wish to care or not care about.

You also asked, "Why the big deal about proselytizing?"

I am not "proselytizing", I am just "speaking".

You then asked, " Why need me to validate their beliefs?"

I don't know if anyone does or not but I am not here for anyone to "validate" my beliefs, I am here to proclaim that the GOOD NEWS is indeed Good News.

You then wrote, "I understand your vision of the Christian god may not be a narcissistic, egomaniacal monster, but lots of other Christians' visions of the Christian god do seem to be so terrible."

I know and I agree with you and that is why I have said that many "Christians" speak about God and seem to know nothing more about God than God's Name.

You then wrote, "That's part of what makes the big circus tent of Christianity so strange to the rest of us: lots of people call themselves Christian but they can't even agree whether god loves everyone, "warts and all," or whether god is the tiger mom who demands nothing less than perfection and genuflection, or somewhere in between."

I would say that one of the main, if not the main, reason for this, is because many seem to think that Love is an attribute of God, rather than God's Very Being.

You then wrote, "There's no rational way to choose which version of Christianity is correct since they all use the same source, or derivatives of that source, to support different views."

By human standards, everything about Christianity, if taken seriously and not watered-down, is irrational.

You then wrote, "As someone said earlier, which version you choose says more about your own personality than about any kind of factual reality about god."

As I have said before, I cherish my Catholic Faith but that doesn't mean I agree with everything about the Catholic religion.

God chose me to speak, I did not choose to speak for God, it doesn't matter if anyone believes me, but I have said yes to the choosing, therefore I speak.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

persiflage

You wrote, "Your mystical communion with God is in fact the most orthodox kind of Catholicism, including the Trinity, the divinity of Jesus, encounters with Satan, and so forth.

Why do you hope to convince people of the truth of age-old Catholic dogma - certified to be true by the Vatican?"

I am not here to "convince", I am here to speak.

I have spoken to virtually no one either in print or in person that "believes" that God Wins, in that I mean, that those in hell get out and those in spiritual death recover, so to speak.

Many say that Jesus is the Saviour of the world but, if you ask, what they mean is that Jesus is the Saviour of some of the world, not ALL.

I am here to announce that Jesus is indeed the Saviour of the world and that the "captives (those in hell) shall be released" and that "the dead (those in spiritual death) shall rise".

You then wrote, "While you are obviously totally convinced that you have heard from God, and that are now his messenger, you must appreciate that virtually no one else is convinced that the Almighty has selected you among all the people on earth, for this very special task - of simply confirming what Catholicism has been preaching for about 2000 years now. There is reason for suspicion, because there is absolutely nothing particularly unique in your message."

Do you know anyone, besides me, that "believes" or for that matter even "wants" God's Victory to be for All?

By "know" in the last paragraph, it doesn't have to be someone you've met in person, it can also be someone you've met only in print.

You then wrote, "Contrast this with the mystical encounters of 14th century Dominican priest Meister Eckhart, for example - he said the eye with which he saw God, was the eye with which God saw him. For this, he was nearly branded as a heretic. In other words, he was unable to discriminate between himself and God. One must assume that in his vision, there is nothing but God, and God alone.

He did not mention Jesus, the Trinity, the devil, or any other divine entity. His absorption was with God alone, which has been since described as the Godhead - above the Trinity and all other multiplicities."

I am not Meister Eckhart.

You then wrote, "Certainly this paradox can't be lost on you......one wonders if you ever doubt yourself."

It is not about me, it is about what God chose me to do.

The thing is, I do not have to "believe" what happened to me actually happened, I know it happened.

Thanks for asking, I hope you're doing well and as I have said before: See you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

"I have also said that I have had dreams that I know were from God and whether or not it was God directly or one of God's messengers, I do not know, I was told that only I could say it."

Don't you see how insane that sounds? If you had dreams where unicorns where prancing on dead cyclops you would know it's just a dream, weird stuff happens in dreams. But because it involves some god you want to believe in, you dispense with the logical reasoning part of your brain and just assume this time the weird stuff is real.

People who believed in Zeus and other gods nobody believes in any more made the same statements about their gods. How would you accept somebody telling you that Hermes came to them in a dream, telling them to spread the word, and that they believed it to really be hermes?

In fact, they printed it on a sheet of plywood and stuck it in the back of their pickup truck to drive it around town to convert the heathens ...

You would know them to be insane. The only question here is whether they are a danger to themselves or anybody else.

That's what I ask of you, is your insanity dangerous to you or anybody else?

How about John 3:18 - He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Shows you what a really nice guy this jesusgod is in the christian bible.

It sounds an awful lot like something a muslim says about his god.

eezmamata

You wrote, "And really, you've announced many times here on this forum that your god talks to you, has chosen you to spread its words.

You are, insane."

If this was directly to me, I thank you, this puts me in pretty Good company considering that many thought Jesus was insane.

What I have said is that, when God the Father came into my heart, He did not say a word and that when the Holy Spirit came into my body, He didn't say a word but did reveal to me that the Catholic Eucharist is Jesus.

I have also said that I have had dreams that I know were from God and whether or not it was God directly or one of God's messengers, I do not know, I was told that only I could say it.

As far as "has chosen you to spread its words", I am here to tell the world that God's Victory is Total and that All will, ultimately, be with God in God's Kingdom, God's Plan, which God has had since before creation, will come to Fruition.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

When did "If you eat you shall surely die" morph into "If you eat you shall burn forever and ever in the firest of hell?" If the original sinners didn't get that kind of 'punishment', why would we?

The only thing I can figure out, is that hell believers don't REALLY believe any of their loved ones are in hell or are going there. Because if they imagined, for even a second, what hell is all about, they'd go insane.

Andrea Yates got it... everyone else is just a hell-believing wanna be.

When did "If you eat you shall surely die" morph into "If you eat you shall surely suffer horrible torments forever and ever in hell"? If the original sinners didn't get 'deserve' such a 'punishment', why would the rest of us?

Maybe none of you eternal hell believers has a loved one in hell... maybe you don't think any of your loved ones are going there... otherwise, you're as diabolically insane as they come and don't even know it.

Andrea Yates had it right. All the rest of you are just hell-believing wanna be's.

John Piper's view of Christianity is so flawed who cares what he has to say! Strict Calvinists are BORING!

To be fair, the criticism of the fractured nature of Christianity applies to Islam and Judaism, and somewhat to Hinduism and Buddhism, though perhaps less so since they were never really designed in the same monolithic fashion as the other three were.

THOMASBAUM

You didn't answer the question. If I am a kind and generous person to the people around me, why should god care if I believe in the supernatural stuff? Why need me to validate his existence? And why should anyone else care? Why the big deal about proselytizing? Why need me to validate their beliefs?

I understand your vision of the Christian god may not be a narcissistic, egomaniacal monster, but lots of other Christians' visions of the Christian god do seem to be so terrible. That's part of what makes the big circus tent of Christianity so strange to the rest of us: lots of people call themselves Christian but they can't even agree whether god loves everyone, "warts and all," or whether god is the tiger mom who demands nothing less than perfection and genuflection, or somewhere in between. There's no rational way to choose which version of Christianity is correct since they all use the same source, or derivatives of that source, to support different views. As someone said earlier, which version you choose says more about your own personality than about any kind of factual reality about god.

T. Baum,

Your mystical communion with God is in fact the most orthodox kind of Catholicism, including the Trinity, the divinity of Jesus, encounters with Satan, and so forth.

Why do you hope to convince people of the truth of age-old Catholic dogma - certified to be true by the Vatican?

While you are obviously totally convinced that you have heard from God, and that are now his messenger, you must appreciate that virtually no one else is convinced that the Almighty has selected you among all the people on earth, for this very special task - of simply confirming what Catholicism has been preaching for about 2000 years now. There is reason for suspicion, because there is absolutely nothing particularly unique in your message.

Contrast this with the mystical encounters of 14th century Dominican priest Meister Eckhart, for example - he said the eye with which he saw God, was the eye with which God saw him. For this, he was nearly branded as a heretic. In other words, he was unable to discriminate between himself and God. One must assume that in his vision, there is nothing but God, and God alone.

He did not mention Jesus, the Trinity, the devil, or any other divine entity. His absorption was with God alone, which has been since described as the Godhead - above the Trinity and all other multiplicities.

Certainly this paradox can't be lost on you......one wonders if you ever doubt yourself.

People believe in a lot of gods that don't exist. For much of our existence this is so.

Does this mean that all of the gods people believe in don't exist? It isn't absolute proof, but it is profound evidence that people invent gods to believe in.

Why is your god any more believable than any other? It isn't.

That's what evidence means. Look up the word, there's "evidence", there's "proof".

And really, you've announced many times here on this forum that your god talks to you, has chosen you to spread its words.

You are, insane.

eezmamata

You wrote, "Thomas Paul Moses Baum, the reason most of us don't believe in your god, or any other, is the profound evidence that none of the gods people believe in exist.

You know they don't exist."

I happen to know that God Is, for the simple reason that God revealed the "evidence", as you put it, and as I have also said, I can not provide "evidence" that God Is but God will provide "evidence" in God's Way and in God's Time that God Is.

You then wrote, "That's a lot of "doesn't exist". That's called evidence, don't you know."

How can a lot of "doesn't exist" be "evidence"?

Isn't that kind of like saying, a "lack of evidence" in this case is evidence but a "lack of evidence" in that case is not evidence?

You then wrote, "And remember, if you talk to god, it's merely a delusion. If your gods talk to you, you're insane."

This is merely your opinion, where is your "evidence" for this statement?

One could say that I am delusional and/or insane or that I am merely stating some facts that have happened in my life and that I am attempting to do the "job" God chose me to do.

Time will tell.

See you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

spaded_glory4

You wrote, "Jesus is the only way to God,"

This is not what Jesus said, it is a misquote.

What Jesus said was, "I AM the Way, the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father except thru Me", is this what you meant?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

alpritchett

You wrote, "When God re-writes His Word to remove the hell doctrine, I will believe there is no hell."

Doesn't sheol in the bible mean hell?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

YEAL9

You wrote, "Father Edward Schillebeeckx, the famous contemporary theologian, has a different take on hell. He reasons that the Singularity i.e. God does not tolerate imperfection in his spiritual realm.

Therefore, any soul dying in mortal sin will simply disappear since hell the imperfect state does not exist."

Wouldn't your "famous contemporary theologian" also conclude that since we are all "imperfect" that we would all "simply disappear" when we died?

Have you ever wondered how many coins these "famous contemporary theologians", that you bring up, must have worn out in deciding just what they should leave in and what they should take out of the bible?

See you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

LOL Heaven and Hell; and the now defunct Purgatory are primarily marketing devices. Devices to create that sweet spot for salesmen, con-men, and priests or is that redundant? All salesman know the first part of sales is to create some pain, pain of fear, pain of desire, pain of envy, pain of loss, whatever; first we create pain and then we offer our solution to remove the pain! Religion has known and exploited this human dynamic for ages and of course America has made it into a media science! But back to the priests, they have that big daddy of fear of death for their "pain" campaign: God won't treat you nice if you don't believe and give; God will punish you for eternity if you don't have faith; God will give you eternal adoration in his divine splendor if you believe, give, and give, and give!

Heaven and Hell; nicely located after the suckers are safely gone and food for the worms! The evolution of the religious racket is quite a lesson; one that pure capitalism is just beginning to learn!

Thomas Paul Moses Baum, the reason most of us don't believe in your god, or any other, is the profound evidence that none of the gods people believe in exist.

You know they don't exist. Apparently you know this angry malevolent beast that so many christians worship doesn't exist either.

That's a lot of "doesn't exist". That's called evidence, don't you know.

And remember, if you talk to god, it's merely a delusion. If your gods talk to you, you're insane.

Take Care, don't waste your one life waiting for a next one that doesn't exist.

Sara121

You wrote, "If "God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof," then why would he, or anyone else for that matter, care if I believe he exists or not, as long as I am a kind and generous person to the people around me?"

I wrote the quote you quoted and as I have also said, God is not the egomaniac that some would have us believe.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

I like the concept of conditionalism, "which holds that the unsaved will ultimately cease to exist." I think it should be extended to the saved as well. That would seem to describe reality rather nicely.

persiflage

You wrote, "All in all, there's apparently no reason to doubt anything you've said. Is that correct?"

Hi persiflage, hope you're doing well, I don't really understand your question.

People can doubt what I wrote or not doubt it but hopefully some might just give a thought of their own about God, especially those that "believe" in a God that they think should be held in "reverence and awe" rather than "contempt and fear".

Fear of the Lord means "reverence and awe of God", it does not mean fear and loathing of the ultimate bully.

I can see why some would come to the conclusion that God is the ultimate bully by what some "Christians" conceive of God and as I have said, who would want to have anything to do with a being such as that?

I can also say that, in my opinion, there just might be some that say that they do not believe in God, base their non-belief on the "conception" of God that others have espoused.

I don't believe in this "conception" of God either, even and especially when these "others" happen to "know" God's Name but nothing else about God.

There just might be every reason in the world to "doubt" what I've said but should that keep anyone from thinking?

There is a lot of putrid garbage being spewed out in God's Name by people that have chosen themself as a spokesperson.

I find it pretty much unfathomable that some can have the "conception" of God that they have and be grateful to this "being" or at least say that they are.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

The christian types seem to save their finest vitriol for each other, they hate the wrong christians even more than the atheists, even more than the homos! Yeah, apostasy, the unforgivable sin.

Doesn't that tell you something, about christianity, about the believers?

So it's a crapshoot basically. You have to hope that you were born in a country that infects its youth with christianity, instead of islam of hinduism or buddhism or whatever.

Then you have to hope that being a catholic or a protestant or eastern orthodox or coptic or whatever, you have to hope you were born in the right geographical location so that you were infected with the real christianity - all the other believers are going to hell, including all those 'false christians'. You have to hope your parents believed in the right christianity.

This tells us so much about christians, about believers.

You people are crazy.

"How can seemingly-intelligent people actually believe these ancient myths about Heaven and Hell?"

Dunno. But everything people know about them should fit easily in 140 characters.

The truth is, no one has "earned" the right to go to heaven, by our deeds and sin nature, we have earned nothing short of Hell. That God chose to give us a way to him, any way, and that he sacrificed his own perfect son for us to give us that way, is called Grace. There is no one righteous or deserving of heaven, not even one person on this Earth. We all fall short of his standard. God will deal fairly and judge those of us who have never heard the Gospel, or have never had a chance to accept him. For those of us who have, and reject him, the Bible is clear what will happen. Even if you don't like it, or this is not what you think is fair, it is what it is. The difference is that if I am wrong, I have lived my life telling people about God's love and saving grace, taking care of my fellow humans, raising my children up to be productive members of society that are aware of their thoughts and actions toward others. If you are wrong, and there is no God, or at least one that you think is "fair", you go to Hell. Personally, I'd rather embrace Christianity and live a moral life and maybe be wrong when I die, than to insist that there is no hell or that I don't have to accept God's son in order to be saved and find myself in the very Hell I don't believe in later on.

Hitler: Was not a Christian. He ignored the two greatest commandments, Love the Lord and love your neighbor. Do all things in love. In the end, many will say to Jesus, Lord Lord, did I not do things in your name? And Jesus will say, nope, sorry, I don't know you. Simply saying that you are a Christian isn't enough. God's people will be known by the sign on their hands and foreheads, i.e, their thoughts and their deeds. Their motives and how they have treated other people. Jesus is the only way to God, and because of what he has done for me I would never deny him nor propose that there could be any other way.

"How can seemingly-intelligent people actually believe these ancient myths about "Heaven" and "Hell"? And then engage in passionate debate about the specific details as well!

Grow up, people!

POSTED BY: BALT21212"

--------------------------------

Because of the deep-seated desire to feel better than someone else.

How can seemingly-intelligent people actually believe these ancient myths about "Heaven" and "Hell"? And then engage in passionate debate about the specific details as well!

Grow up, people!

What is the point of discussing topics that have no answer?.
Not one person has come back from being dead and given us the facts. If you believe we all possess a spirit then we have all been dead before.
Facts are we all will die, when we die none of us know if that is the end.

'Father Edward Schillebeeckx, the famous contemporary theologian, has a different take on hell. He reasons that the Singularity i.e. God does not tolerate imperfection in his spiritual realm.'

Wow, and I thought this guy was a liberal. Now I finally understand the appeal.....

I find that hell is just a fear tactic used by the church to control people. I prefer ancient spirituality, our original gods and thinking for myself.

When God re-writes His Word to remove the hell doctrine, I will believe there is no hell. I believe that God commands that everyone should be saved. I know that not everyone will believe. I belive that people who have never been offered the choice, there is no hell. One must refuse the Gospel in order to earn the lake of fire. For, even a thing that is not sin becomes sin if the practicer believes it is sin. It is a mind set; a choice. The only way one gets to the lake of fire is unbelief. We cannot pick and choose the doctrines we will accept and the ones we will reject based on our understanding. If we call God a liar in one thing, we have accused him of lying in everything.

It seems to me that some people here want to be with God eternally and some do not. They both will likely get their wish.

"Father Edward Schillebeeckx, the famous contemporary theologian, has a different take on hell. He reasons that the Singularity i.e. God does not tolerate imperfection in his spiritual realm.

Therefore, any soul dying in mortal sin will simply disappear since hell the imperfect state does not exist.

POSTED BY: YEAL9"

-----------------

Wow, that is one intolerant god! Sounds like an abusive parent - nothing short of perfection is good enough. Not any god that I would want to meet!

Father Edward Schillebeeckx, the famous contemporary theologian, has a different take on hell. He reasons that the Singularity i.e. God does not tolerate imperfection in his spiritual realm.

Therefore, any soul dying in mortal sin will simply disappear since hell the imperfect state does not exist.

If "God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof," then why would he, or anyone else for that matter, care if I believe he exists or not, as long as I am a kind and generous person to the people around me?

Comments here show conclusively that believers do so out of self-delusion (faith), intellectual dishonesty (seeking a religion one is comfortable with) or terror of the unknown (ego).

In short, human nature.

It seems religion is like a Rorschach. Our religious views say much more about ourselves than god, Jesus, or anything having to do with a religious tradition. I note how evangelicals seem to have created a legalistic, wrathful deity - a sort of Antony Scalia only worse. I suppose this is what they grew up with. How sad, and emotionally damaging. That sort of deity is almost abusive, and I've noticed some of the most fundamental Christians exhibit personality traits one would expect of abused individuals. I have no idea what happens to us when we're dead. I would refer people to the story of Pamela Reynolds. The BBC did a full hour story about her. She had a classic near death experience, only this time in the midst of neuro-surgery. Her story is unique in that it is probably the best documented from a medical perspective. The primary neurosurgeon was a guy named Spetzler. Her experience revealed 'something', I'm not sure I could call it God in the Western sense, but it was unconditionally loving, and that we are in charge of our own destiny. You can find this on youtube under Pam Reynolds. I find near death experiences interesting, but frankly most extremely religious people I know need something more like a near life experience. Just a thought.

It saddens me that so many people would spend so much time focusing on something that doesn't pertain to their present life and that may not even exist. So what if everyone gets into heaven (if it even exists)? The biblical evidence for hell is tenuous at best. Live your life in the moment! Don't let it pass you by, lying half in your grave, wondering what does or doesn't come next.

'It really seems to upset some that God would come up with a Plan that is for all of humanity and all of creation to be in God's Kingdom.'

All in all, there's apparently no reason to doubt anything you've said. Is that correct?

God did not "create" hell, God allows us to build our own hell, if one were to die and "wake up in hell", so to speak, one would come to the realization that they built it themself and have no one to blame but themself.

Hell is not seperation from God, seperation from God is spiritual death.

Jesus experienced not only physical death but also both hell and spiritual death.

Jesus won the "keys" to hell and death (physical and spiritual) and will use them in due time, God's Time.

The "captives shall be released" those in hell and the "dead shall rise" those in spiritual death.

If God were even remotely like what some of these "Evangelicals" seem to think God to be, who, with even a drop of decency flowing thru their veins, so to speak, would want to have anything to do with such a horrible being?

God knew that not all would "repent", which is taking responsibility, and that is why God came up with a Plan, even before creation.

God becoming One of us is part of this Plan.

Seems as if many, believers and non-believers alike, are in for quite a shock when they find out that God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof.

I suppose many will also be surprised to learn that it is important what one does and why one does it and what one knows.

Isn't it something that the Apostles, at least some of them, were more interested in getting the "best seats in the house", so to speak, rather than wanting there to be "seats enough for all", sound familiar, sound contemporary?

If the GOOD NEWS is not, ultimately, for ALL than it is not Good News at all but, to put it mildly, horrific news.

God Is a Being of Pure Love, a consuming FIRE OF LOVE.

Does this FIRE, caress or burn?

Or does this FIRE do both?

God is not the loser that many seem to think God to be and that some seem to want God to be.

It really seems to upset some that God would come up with a Plan that is for all of humanity and all of creation to be in God's Kingdom.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

jaxas70

You wrote, "Indeed, we may face an Armagaeddon someday but I assure you it will come from man's own arrogance and not from some mythical vengeful Deity."

Have you ever thought that God will let man bring this upon himself and that you have hit it on the head, as it were, "will come from man's own arrogance".

See you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom, God's Plan, which God has had since before creation, is for ALL, ultimately, to be with God in God's Kingdom.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

The Christian concept of Hell is the most conclusive evidence that morality, our sense of right and wrong, is a product of human intuition and experience, rather than some divine creation handed down to us on stone tablets.

How? Because the Christian bible tells us that Ghandi and Anne Frank are doomed to eternal torture because they had not confessed allegiance to Jesus, while Hitler and Ted Bundy are going to heaven because they did.

Our human intuition fights this idea. We know, every one of us, that there is something completely screwed-up with that idea. One must work hard to create a rationalization that is not found in the text of the bible to explain this inherently and morally flawed idea.

This is what proves that human beings, left alone without any divine intervention, are perfectly capable of creating a system of moral values that we all can live with. Without God, Jesus or Moses, we are inherently attuned to right and wrong - better attuned, it turns out, than the forever-unseen cloud man who thought working on Sunday was a huge biggie.

There is no hell, except the one that man creates here on earth for his fellows. There also is no heaven, except the heaven on earth that we all deserve to experience while we live. All else is just idle speculation or coercion disguised as religion.

wireman65

You wrote, "Of course they use twitter, what else would a twit use? As for heaven and hell: Remenber what it was like before you were born? That's exactly what itt will be like after you die. No need to lay awake at night wondering about your "afterlife". There isn't one."

You're wrong.

See you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

There are so many versions of what heaven and hell might be that it boggles the mind to try and choose which one to believe.

It seems to me that most people so desperately want to have a sense of fairness to their lives, that they would rather see people that are not like them serve time in a hell than to share in a heaven.

That people need to have that either/or in their lives says a great deal about how they view their god(s). A loving god makes room somehow for everyone. A vengeful god makes sure that only the "saved" get into heaven.

My life is so much more peaceful and happy since I stopped believing in any of these fairy tales.

It's not the christian hell I find interesting - I get that story, it's obvious that this part of the fairy tale needs to exist to frighten people.

No, it's the christian idea of heaven that confuses me. Some christians say there isn't an eternal torment, no infinite nipple clips and red hot anal probes as so many claim, but that hell is separation from their god.

The idea of christian heaven sounds like real hell to me, I can't see a single thing about it that I want. And this separation from their god ... if I for a second could believe in their god or any other for that matter, I'd want to be as far away from this malevolent monster as I could get.

You people are crazy.

If there is a just God, the fundamentalist christian taliban will spend eternity boiling in the lake of fire. Unfortunately, the continued existence of these people on Earth is proof positive that God is dead, but the Devil is alive and well.

The heaven/hell debate was one of the many things that drove me away from Christianity (not that I was ever a believer in the first place; I just went to Sunday school because my parents made me!). I never could accept the idea that good people went to hell because they weren't Christian, while murderers, rapists, child molesters, and other scum could get a karmic "get out of jail free" pass by claiming to "repent" and say they were "saved" at the last second before they died. If those people were allowed into heaven while good people like Gandhi and our pets, who showed us nothing but unconditional love and true loyalty, were denied simply because they weren't human beings, then the Christian religion and its ideas of afterlife were not something I wanted any part of!

Jaxa, well said! I've long held the conviction that if there are events heralding the Apocalypse (as hypothesized by Christianity) on the horizon, they will be brought about by our own actions! Contrary to the Christian religion, we are responsible for our own actions, not God or Satan. Consequences for those actions will be in THIS life, and we'd darn well better be prepared to face them! Too many people use such ideas as repentance and salvation as a cop-out to avoid taking responsibility.

And the only twittering done around our house is that vocalization by the birds outside in our yard. We don't need any more useless modern gadgets like that cluttering up our lives and our world.

Nothing more demonstrates the truth that man created God in his own image rather than the reverse than how different types of believers define God. For the fundamentalist zealots, a vengeful God meets their expectations because they are vengeful and hateful and would like nothing more than to throw people they hate into a pit of fire.

This vengeful, hateful God hurling thunderbolts at nonbelievers can be seen even in our politics. Glen Beck, Sarah Palin and Rush Limbaugh would almost certainly worship such a God as He meets their expectations of a mean spirited bigoted God that reserves Paradise for a handful of elites while casting the nonbelievers into the Lake of Fire.

Applying Christian Beliefs to non-Christains does not help Christians. The Dali Lama, Ghandi, and other non-Christians did not do what they did for Christianities sake, but for the sake of humanity, so you must look outside your beliefs, to understand others motivation.

Buddhism teaches that Hell exists in the mind and nowhere else. Hell is not a destination as taught in Christianity, but an emotional state to arrive at and leave upon choice, not by others wishes to "go to Hell" and so forth.

As a Buddhist, I do not accept your destination of Hell as a final destination, as life is eternal, and life goes on, whether you believe it or not. Though Budhist do believe in the Hell of Incessent Suffering, a place of choice in your own mind of suffering.

As Nichiren Daishonon says, "If you should find yourself in Hell, I am sure we will find Shakyamuni Buddha there as well."

The World of Hell includes the World of Buddhahood, as well as the other eight worlds or life-states, leading all people to enlightenment, just as they are.

What I find odd is that there seems to be this plethora of discussion on the minute details of what hell is like and virtually nothing of a similar level of detail on what heaven is like. Why? I can only think that people are more compelled, generally (most suicide bombers excluded), by the threat of punishment than the promise of reward. And since threats have to be credible to be effective, hell is described in great detail in order to make it seem credible. Heaven then doesn't have to be described in detail; all you have to do is say "not hell." The cognitive science of this must be fascinating....

Look. This silly doctrine of a vengeful God hurling nonbelievers and the technically ineligible into the mythical fiery lake got started during the Dark Ages, died off during the Renaissance then was revitalized in the 19th century with the rise of fundamentalism. This concept of Hell is simply one of a variety inventions that have no real basis in the Bible or the New Testament and have only been added in later versions by unscrupulous zealots out to control the hearts and minds of ignorant people through fear and intimidation. Hell, the AntiChrist, the Rapture--all of these are latter day fantasies that appeal to a certain type of true believer who wants to believe that they are somehow special and part of an elite group that will be saved in the equally fanciful Armagaeddon that is to come.

Indeed, we may face an Armagaeddon someday but I assure you it will come from man's own arrogance and not from some mythical vengeful Deity.

I have yet to do anything worth tweeting.

'Clearly, this is not a new conversation. It's been going on for centuries-- in the Church, among scholars, in dorm rooms, at kitchen tables, in Bible studies, in journals, over coffee, and in thousands of tearful prayers each night.'
_____________

The fact is, there are numerous versions of hell, all depending on the religion being observed - and there are apparently many ways to end up there....all generally having to do with over-indulgence in one's physical and emotional needs i.e. ego-related behavior that results in harm to self or others. It's no wonder Freud had much to say about religious beliefs!

What all of this hypothetically does is influence and manipulate humans into becoming compliant social entities that follow whatever set of societal rules are 'legitimate' at the time. Buddhism even has both hot and cold hells.

How will anyone ever know the first thing about heaven, hell, or the afterlife, until they are dead? If then......

So, just be the best person you can be and forget the rest.

In the end, preoccupation with any religion and hell in particular is a hugely over-indulgent and speculative waste of time....something humans are particularly good at.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell

Of course they use twitter, what else would a twit use? As for heaven and hell: Remenber what it was like before you were born? That's exactly what itt will be like after you die. No need to lay awake at night wondering about your "afterlife". There isn't one.

I look forward to reading this book as part of my own spiritual journey away from fundamentalism. Honestly, the responses from conservative leaders whose theology is challenged scares me more on a real, immediate level than entertaining the concept that hell as I've always known it might not exist...because I trust that God is good. His followers...not so much. I've seen my friends verbally annihilated at best by suggesting this possibility.

Jason Boyett said it best, I think: "There is no meaner, more hateful person on Earth than a Christian who suspects you have gotten your theology wrong. Labeling that mean-ness as "being faithful" to the Gospel doesn't make it less hateful."

~rain
http://sacredbe.blogspot.com/

Dear Rachel,

Your statement below is a false dicotomy because one can be a Christian in name only. It also ignores that fact that Jesus came to earth as a Jewish man. In other words if one were to hate Jewish people that same one would have to hate Jesus also.

“If my Sunday school teacher was right, I reasoned, then the German guards who professed Christian faith were more likely to make it into heaven than the Jews they persecuted.”

The Bible teaches that non believers will be cast in to eternal fire (Matthew 25:41). The Greek word used here for eternal (aiónios) is the same word that speaks of eternal life in verse 26. In fact eternal life and eternal fire are contrasted in verse 46.

In the final analysis one either believes that the Bible was inspired by God or one believes the fallen ever changing uninspired opinions and words of finite men.

Kevin DeYoung has some great comments about the nature of the video. I suggest anyone interested take a few minutes to read this:

http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2011/02/28/bell-brouhaha/

I think it sums everything up fairly accurately.

Those last 1.1 paragraphs really sums this all up.

It reminds me of those telephone commercials where the guy says "I know we've had some awkward conversations in the past, but this time I'm calling on my new ... service."

21st Century technology does elevate the debate above 11th century thought.