T. Baum correctly states:

'That is not what the Immaculate Conception means, what it means is that Mary was conceived without sin, not the Incarnation of God.'
_____________________

And as we can see in the links, a number of Church doctrines were necessary in order to fit the pieces of this supernatural puzzle together.

The final and missing piece was the last and most recent doctrinal declaration originating from the Vatican - by Pope Pious XII in 1950! The Assumption of Mary bodily into heaven as the uncorrupted vessel of the Virgin birth.

It's fair to say that this entire series of doctrinal declarations surrounding Mary is one of several reason for the Reformation. It was believed that the Roman Catholic Church had lost touch with the intrinsic truths of the bible, and was arbitrarily confabulating theology that had no basis in reality. See Martin Luther, et al.

Needless to say, believing in the actuality of all of the supernatural events upon which Christianity is based (whether the Catholic or Protestant version) is a stretch for folks that aren't easily persuaded by some of the outlandish claims that comprise the panorama of religious dogma. I guess that's what faith is for.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Conception

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assumption_of_Mary

Carstonio

You wrote, "We should help others because it's the right thing to do, not because we expect a reward or benefit."

I agree and I also agree with the converse, we should not hurt others because it is wrong, not because we fear punishment.

I also happen to believe that none of us live both sides of this same coin 100% during our life.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

christy42

You wrote, "Karma does not exist. Nor does reincarnation. Nor does God. Nor does life after death - as there is NO SCIENTIFIC PROOF even of the existence of a soul."

There is "NO SCIENTIFIC PROOF" either way.

You then wrote, "Karma is a myth because human beings are "programmed" to be both evil and good for their survival, just as cats are programmed to chase mice and squirrels are programmed to collect acorns."

Does this "programming" mean that we are just "fancy biological robots"?

Is this "programming" just some fluke or did "someone or something" do the "programming"?

Or do we have a "choice" in what we do?

Do we have a "choice" in changing our behaviour or do we blame our "programming"?

You then wrote, " Because if we never had Hitler's or criminals - how could we appreciate "goodness" and human triumph in our existence and in the world?"

How can we possibly "appreciate "goodness" and human triumph in our existence and in the world" if we are all merely "programmed"?

Does this mean that no one is responsible for their actions because they are "programmed"?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

tjohn1

You wrote, "However loving your neighbor as your self is good though not really possible."

As the Apostles said to Jesus various times, "These are hard sayings".

As I have said before, if Jesus were not God, many of the things that He said, goes way beyond outrageous, so it seems that those that look at Jesus as just a "nice guy" must ignore quite a bit of what Jesus said.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

pgibson1

You wrote, "Much the same way non-Christians have a hard time with things like Immaculate conceptions - you know Mary and the Holy spirit having a baby."

That is not what the Immaculate Conception means, what it means is that Mary was conceived without sin, not the Incarnation of God.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

"My understanding of bad karma is simple: make enough people angry, and sooner or later it will happen that you will depend on one of them for something. Then you pay."

While that makes sense, I suspect that is not what most people mean when they talk about karma in a general sense. As I understand it, they usually mean some sort of force that exists on another plane that responds to human actions, either reflexively or deliberately. Again, we would need proof that such a force exists. The concept sounds too much like turning reality into a morality play where the good guys always win and the bad guys always get comeuppance. But reality is neither inherently just nor inherently unjust. While our actions should be based on what potentially help others and potentially avoids harm to others, we cannot assume that every action will result in consequences for ourselves as individuals. We should help others because it's the right thing to do, not because we expect a reward or benefit.

Pgibson1, the issue here isn't about Western versus Eastern ideas of karma. Nor is it about individual worship. When one asserts that actions have consequences after this life, whether it's in an afterlife or after a rebirth, one is making an assertion about the reality of the universe, and such assertions require testable evidence. Plus, such assertions are also about individuals, and they have the right to challenge assertions about themselves or their character. Imagine if I said, "Person X is guilty of robbery, but that's my religious belief so no one can question or challenge it."

My understanding of bad karma is simple: make enough people angry, and sooner or later it will happen that you will depend on one of them for something. Then you pay.

Ms.Cadge,

There are serious,fundamental errors in your understanding and description of "karma",leading one to wonder at your reasons for having brought up the subject at all.

For example, when you mention "endless cycle of birth, death and reincarnation or rebirth" and "people" being "reborn",you either have not understood anything,or choose to trivialize a complex issue.

You need first to define from whose perspective you are speaking from: hich is why paz/pash "to perceive" is one etymology suggested by the term 'pazu/pashu', the apparently "bound" or discrete entity cognizing its inviduality. This MERE COGNITION of individuality, asmita, may seem to accrue various names & forms in a particular plane of time, space and causality. This MERE AWARENESS is the actual element or causal node for what people tend to think as rebirth or reincarnation. That is quite different from anything discrete or particulate, like a flash drive, transmigrating!

On the level of this MERE COGNITION there may appear to be a certain type ofsequency in play,whereas simultaneously that same pashu may continue to enjoy a continuum of non-discrete "existence" where different types of time & causality reign and ultimately is non-relevant to the inherent nature of being. Thus, the pashu cannot "become" something than what it already is: absolutely equal in quality to the INCONCEIVABLE. This is accepted by the so-called dualists up to the non-dualists.

If something is perfectly equal in quality to that which is Inconceivably extraordinary and without blemish, how could any karma ever accrue or reside within or upon it? How could anything relative do so, short of that which is absolute, perfect, and beyond word or concept?

What this means is that "someone" can be on the karmic plane, i.e. where his/her conceptual mind is reacting to causes and conditions, and yet be completely "unbound." That is the natural state of all beings and all reality, INTERBEING, Dependent Arising, jnanAdhisthAnam matrkA, in whatever metaphysical system you choose to espouse.

The whole issue of endless birth etc. is sheer nonsense. That may be what is understood superficially, but karma is to be understood from many perspectives. This is not the place to relate them. However, the misapprehension of Time, and hence sequency of birth, is a huge mistake. This is the first illusion to melt away during any spiritual practice,where introspection into the nature of karma becomes most important.

If you need to be shallow & insulting to a tradition, please confine yourself to subjects about which you have at least some passing familiarity. In the Indian universe, reading texts does not equip you to grasp their import, just as reading texts on surgery does not make you a surgeon.

You are welcome to contact me and enter into a dialog about the orld of karma and what it means.

PGIBSON1 wrote "... non-Christians have a hard time with things like Immaculate conceptions - you know Mary and the Holy spirit having a baby."

Well, it could be because parthenogenesis is unknown among primates. But then again, why not? If there are people who actually believe that Jesus was resurrected from death, then immaculate conception becomes a completely "logical" prequel.

Meanwhile I recommend that people who are really afraid to die move to Israel. After all, the place has the world's highest resurrection rate ...

Karma does not exist. Nor does reincarnation. Nor does God. Nor does life after death - as there is NO SCIENTIFIC PROOF even of the existence of a soul. Belief in these things is created to soften the cold, ugly truth of our mortality and is remnant of "magic stories" of our ancestors about a "heaven, a hell, the parting of the Red Sea etc..."

Karma is a myth because human beings are "programmed" to be both evil and good for their survival, just as cats are programmed to chase mice and squirrels are programmed to collect acorns. That is why you never see humans chasing mice like a cat - it's not in their programming. Yet - actions of humans - good and bad - repeat themselves again and again and again. We have had muggings, prostitution, murder, rape and burglaries since the beginning of mankind.

Just as there are people programmed to be lawyers or doctors, there are people programmed to be "Hitlers", criminals and terrorists for the overall - BALANCE of good and evil. Because if we never had Hitler's or criminals - how could we appreciate "goodness" and human triumph in our existence and in the world? Without evil - there is no good.
Without good - there is no evil.

..."Of Course theirs a Karma, there's a balance to the Universe, there's a ying and a yang, there's good, and evil, there's, night and day, and there's right, and wrong.

..."Karma to this Graduate Student, ETSU, is a balance in the Universal that the Living God put in place, as we have free wills we have choices, and as we have choices, we have consequences, that can lead us to enternal life or damnation. As a Christian, I see Karma as a leap of faith, to those of us who have taken it, we see/know that God is real, to those who haven't taken it, they never will.

That is why Karma exists.

BTW, put religion in the trash can, where it belongs. It's stunk up the planet for long enough.

Karma is real, just like Wonder Woman and Superman.

Scum like Cheney has power and wealth and immunity to any laws. Some little kid gets leukemia and dies before even getting to live.

Anyone who seriously believes in Karma or other forms of nonsense crap, are simply revealing their stupidity.

To believe in karma, you have to believe in the soul that outlives a body. Hindus were first to believe in the existence of the soul. Christians also believe in the soul. Both Hinduism and Christianity believe a person's behavior will decide the outcome to the soul after death. Hindus believe in re-incarnation and Christians believe in final judgment leading to hell or heaven. I was raised as a Christian. Still I do not believe man has a soul. I believe this life is all we have. No other life. I do not believe in judgment because I do not believe there is a standard. Religion is man made. However loving your neighbor as your self is good though not really possible.

Westerners, un-versed and unfamiliar in the ways of Buddhism and Hinduism traditions are simply incapable of understanding the concept of Karma.

Much the same way non-Christians have a hard time with things like Immaculate conceptions - you know Mary and the Holy spirit having a baby.

The Immaculate conception is part of your western belief - and I'd say the best way to deal with the concept of Karma is to accept it as much as you expect others to accept the weird concept of immaculate conception.

But, you just judge away, despite your generous wealth of ignorance on such things.

Why do you ask such things? Just trying to put believers in this down?

Well then. How about this: Next week we discuss whether or not Jesus actually existed at all?

That would be a dumb idea, ya think?

yeah, just as dumb as trying to poke holes in the beliefs of millions of Hindus.

Back away and let others be free to worship as they please.

There is a "western" version of Karma, but it doesn't really go into much depth, and is more of a "Do unto others", sort of thing. Think Earl Hickey, from a television (i.e. fiction) show.

Yeah, it's pretty shallow, the western interpretation of Karma

Like Astrology, Horoscopes, Palm reading, voodooism, indeed, Karma and all other superstitious beliefs about SUPERNATURAL ghosts, daemons, angels, Gods, etc. is Man-Made ... BS ! And that’s a Fact!

Clearthinking:

'Hinduism has no founder or prophet. Hinduism is more accurately called Sanatan Dharma, and one follows dharma (no easy definition for you), Truth, and right knowledge. One does not follow or worship a prophet, book, or any thing. Reverence for everything.'
_________________

You've made this point before, and inaccurately, I believe. Hinduism and it's very long history is rife with various human personalities. How else are religious tenets and founding doctrines transmitted to believers??

For example, see below the alleged founder of Advaita Vedanta - an admirable man to be sure.

It seems at least possible that Siddhartha Gautama broke with Hinduism because of his objection to the still-extant caste system and the pantheon of gods......royalty though he was said to have been. Perhaps he was not persuaded by such long-held traditions!

Both myth and the 'possibility' of historical facts permeate all religions. In my view it's very hard to made definitive statements about any religion with absolute certainty.

regards, Persiflage

http://www.dlshq.org/saints/sankara.htm

Let's do an experiment: get on Google Earth and zoom out to about a thousand miles above the Earth's surface. The only evidence of humans that can be seen, if you know where to look and what to look for, is the Great Wall of China.

Otherwise there is no trace, no indication that on the surface of this planet there lives a species of primate that is so unique, so cosmically important in the scheme of things that the members of this species never just die like everything else that we observe. No, this species is so incredibly special that it is not subject to even death, life is just the beginning and, as befits such exceptional beings, second lives are spent either in Elysium, the radiant place where the souls of the righteous will forever live in bliss, or in Hell, where the recalcitrant will suffer eternal torture and damnation. Alternatively, these precious, special beings will return from death, over and over, until they have met the requirements for eternal bliss, at which point they will occupy their rightful places in heaven-like surroundings. That's how important humans are, it's either eternal bliss or eternal damnation, depending on the actions of the individuals of this disappearingly minute species. And to wit, the actions of this microbial ape are judged by the very Lord of the Universe (only he is of sufficient standing to judge peerless man.) That's how incredibly important humans are - only the best will do.

The hubris is breathtaking and the inflated self-importance laughable. The anthropoid ape thumps his chest to the heavens and claims even immortality. It would be funny if it wasn't so pathetic. Aldous Huxley put it in these words:

Man, proud man,
Drest in a little brief authority,
Most ignorant of what he's most assur'd,
His glassy essence, like an angry ape,
Plays such fantastic tricks before high heaven
As make the angels weep.

When this species of hubristic, glorified ape disappears from the Earth, following all the species that went before, not a single thing or entity in the universe will notice or care. The dinosaurs ruled the Earth for 100 million years, a hell of a lot longer than humans have been around, and all we have left of them is petrified bone fragments. But I suppose the disosaurs were too insignficant for the eternal bliss that is reserved for the ape that was "created in God's image."

In the broadest sense, karma is just cause and effect which is much more complicated than you can convey by a simple moral calculus. Common sense says, and experience often proves, that doing good produces good, and doing evil produces evil for the individual. But karma effects the whole universe, not just individual lives. Recent DNA studies suggest that "karmic" stressors may alter the way genes are expressed and that these changes may be passed on to one's descendants through the epigenomic system. This may be a new way to look at the idea that what you do or suffer in this life may be passed on in future lives -- those of your children and grandchildren. In classical Buddhist thought, the ego is not reborn -- only the unconscious drives and tendencies that guided your actions and choices in this life.

Hinduism and Buddhism are more than 'slightly different'. There's variance in the meaning of karma depending on what religion you are, or what school you follow.

Karma can also apply to acts in this life.

Hindu and Buddhist teachings are different enough to cause anti-conversion laws in India.

FYI,

Karma is a Sanskrit word from Hinduism. It can be translated to mean "action".

Karma Theory is very subtle and incorporates concepts of causality, synchronicity, action, intention, dharma, free will, and reincarnation.

Reincarnation is almost impossible to understand unless you spend the time to understand why the concept of "soul" and "atman" are not at all similar, just as dualism and monism are not similar.

Karma is a Vedic (Hindu) concept borrowed by Buddhists, Jains, & Sikhs. Buddha, Mahavir, & Guru Nanak were actual historical men who used Vedic concepts to develop their own slightly different philosophy based on Hinduism. These are cults of personality. Hinduism has no founder or prophet. Hinduism is more accurately called Sanatan Dharma, and one follows dharma (no easy definition for you), Truth, and right knowledge. One does not follow or worship a prophet, book, or any thing. Reverence for everything.

Karma's assertion that one's actions will be rewarded or punished in the next life sounds very similar to the afterlife concept in Western religions. Both seem driven by a longing for justice and a desire to explain suffering. These may be the same desires behind the Just World fallacy. (I wonder what Cadge thinks of the gospel song Farther Along.)

My answer to both concepts is this - when it comes to consequences for our actions, the only ones we can know are the ones in this life. We have no basis for assuming any consequences (or lack of consequences) outside of this life. We must accept the reality that suffering is often random, that sometimes people who help others end up suffering and people who harm others end up prospering. The only justice we can know is the justice that we create when we help others in need.

Isn't this a pretty simplistic definition of karma? For example, the 60's popularized the notion of "good karma." Thing is, karma is neither good nor bad. It means connection - to one's own actions, to other beings, to existence.

Given the first noble truth - that existence is "sorrow" (sabbe pi dukka), that the fact of existence leads to sorrow, dissatisfaction, in itself - all karma is "bad." Liberation, enlightenment, is release from the cycle of rebirth, from existence, and from karma.

Eastern religions that explicitly teach reincarnation would, rather by definition, be the ones to teach that actions in one life can have consequences in others. Western religions which teach that there is one incarnate lifetime followed by a particular judgement (Christianity, Islam, Zoroastrianism, classical Greek, Egyptian, and Norse religion all come to mind) would naturally parse the consequences of action in terms of their theology. Die a hero and be admitted to Valhalla, rather then the tedious halls of Hel. Live a virtuous life and spend the afterlife in Elysium, really outrage the Gods and find torment in Tartarus.