The Winter holidays are for everyone

Mitch Benn already said it better than I could: 'Here's my rule: if only Christians can say "Christmas" then only Vikings can say "Thursday".'

If it's preferred by Christians that the "Christ" part of Christmas precludes non-Christians from celebrating it, then perhaps they should stop celebrating the old gods by using their names for the days of the week? Oh, but it's become secularized to do that, right? So that's okay...

Thank you, Jason. As usual, you are fair and discuss both sides of an issue. I enjoy reading your articles and usually learn something along the way! Thank you for including your own personal stories as examples. Keep up the good work! Happy Solstice!

M00D: " If pagans, atheists and other folks want to copy some of what Christians do @ Christmas, no problem, Christians don't begrudge them their merriment at all... "
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So Christians originated the practice of decorating an evergreen with shiny baubles to celebrate the birth of Jesus? And Pagans "copied" that practice from the Christians in order to celebrate the Winter Solstice for centuries BEFORE Jesus was born?

Christians originated the practice of kissing under mistletoe at the turning of the year to celebrate...what? The fact that JHWH's baby-momma was a virgin? And Pagans "copied" that practice in order to ask the gods for a healthy baby in the coming year for centuries BEFORE Mary got knocked up?

The fact of the matter is that all of the things Christians do to celebrate Christmas were being done long before Christianity ever existed, and it was the Christian church that copied those practices and then tried to claim ownership of them.

If Christians want to copy some of the things that Pagans do at the Winter Solstice, we don't begrudge them their merriment. Just please stop acting like you invented those traditions.

Heehee. Blessed Yule and a happy calendar new year to you, Dancer.

I really don't see this stuff so much as things 'The Christians' 'stole' from our ancestors. It was mostly the same people continuing to do the same things, of course.

'Chrsitianity' tried to appropriate or confuse what it couldn't abolish. It didn't exactly work. Cause some of em are clearly still trying. :)

Apaganplace, well said! I always found it ironic how one of the Ten Commandments of the Christian religion is "Thou Shalt Not Steal," yet that is for all intents and purposes what they did with the traditions and holidays of other religions and cultures. Call it adapting, call it being inspired by, call it whatever you want, but the point is that there is very little about Christian holidays such as Easter and Christmas that is truly Christian. Even the stories in the Bible were adaptations of or taken from pre-Christian myths and legends! Yet they holler about "Christmas is a Christian holiday"...sheesh.

We celebrate Yule as a religious holiday, but I think our families would mutiny if we didn't celebrate Christmas at all. I know I love celebrating the secular side of it, and it's a lot of fun! December without a tree, family get-togethers, gift-giving, and Santa? NOT happening!

Blessed Yule and Happy Holidays to everybody!

I so find it amusing how many Christians keep the Saturnalia: the normal order of society is that they call us commies and such for not being corporate consumerist enough, then for Christmas, they invert this to blame us for how commercialized they are. :)

I thin you're definitely missing the point, here, M00d.... No one's 'taken' anything from the Christian holiday, or 'diluted' it, if anything, it's something Christians took from other religions, claimed them as their own, and in fact *did* the 'secularizing.'

It seems in the process many have forgotten that the presence of other faiths and seasonal celebrations doesn't *dilute* something that's 'yours,' in fact it's exactly what *made* most of your holiday traditions to begin with.

If anyone did the diluting, it's those who too those symbols and made them a pretty weak metaphor for stuff from your Bible, instead of perhaps, part of the season in which Christians chose to celebrate your Jesus' birthday. (It's not even anywhere near his birthday, even: even the time of year for Christmas was taken from Pagan traditions.)

Now, *we Pagans* sure don't have a big problem with sharing what comes through our common ancestors, Pagan *and* Christianized, but where everyone resents Christians acting as if they *own* it all exclusively is in fact when you claim you're being ripped off by those who shared it in the first place.

"Let's see what happens if the culture were to take a Jewish holiday and do the same, or maybe a Muslim holiday, secularize it and then say it belongs to everyone"

If the Jews or the Muslims ever became a majority, and their holiday became a national holiday on display on every block and in every mall, and it took place during a time of year wherein most cultures in the temperate zones have some sort of holiday, then I imagine their holiday would be secularized and universalized. It's just human nature. Especially if many non-Jews and non-Muslims came from Jewish or Muslim traditions, and had Jewish or Muslim family members who viewed the holiday, and celebrating it with their entire family, as deeply important to them. (Many of us non-Christians, after all, celebrate Christmas specifically instead of or in addition to Solstice, say, because our relatives treasure Christmas and want us to be there to share it with them.)

Relax. According to your faith, you have a lock on eternal life (because you believe in the tortured human sacrifice your god needs in order to forgive people for being imperfect) and the rest of us will be burned alive eternally, while you cheer, worship, and praise the torturer. (But of course, it would be bigoted and anti-Christian of us to resent that, since it's your sacred, deeply held BELIEF that we deserve to burn alive forever and ever for not being Christian, and religious beliefs - at least yours - must never be questioned or criticized.) Surely you could spare us a bit of shared festivity, by whatever name?

No one is "diluting" your holiday anyway, any more than I dilute the sacredness of my Orthodox Jewish friends' Shabbos because I get Saturday as a holiday from work but do not observe it in an Orthodox Jewish fashion. The sacredness of your holiday for you depends on how you celebrate it, not on how everyone around you celebrate it.

You are absolutely right. St. Nicholas became a symbol of the winter holiday, but most of what Christians celebrate was co-opted from other traditions. They superimposed their own myth on earlier ones. Anyone can celebrate a winter holiday; Christans have no monopoly on it.

Mr. Pitzl-Waters hasn't been listening to Christians very well. Christians don't think the entire month of December belongs to them, how absurd.

We just think the celebration of Christmas does. Whether the practices of that celebration have pagan roots or not, Christmas is about Christ. If pagans, atheists and other folks want to copy some of what Christians do @ Christmas, no problem, Christians don't begrudge them their merriment at all... but they won't be celebrating Christmas unless they celebrate Christ.

Let's not attribute motive, okay? We aren't afraid of the secularization of the holiday, we just resent it. Celebrate Winter Sparkle all you want to, just call it that and don't dilute our holiday with your practice.

Are we being uptight and controlling? Let's see what happens if the culture were to take a Jewish holiday and do the same, or maybe a Muslim holiday, secularize it and then say it belongs to everyone.

"They take a Gallup poll and then I open my mail." JFK or Santa, but don't quote me.