God's country

@philberton
you missed the punchline-Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays instead of serving you if he sacrifices it to your opinion.

He could also be talking about present US politics with-In a democracy, the majority of the citizens is capable of exercising the most cruel oppressions upon the minority.

and-Politics and the pulpit are terms that have little agreement.

The United States has many virtues - but being the originator of representative democracy or individual liberty is not among them.

Edmund Burke expressed his view of the role of elected representatives in 1774:
"It ought to be the happiness and glory of a representative to live in the strictest union, the closest correspondence, and the most unreserved communication with his constituents. Their wishes ought to have great weight with him; their opinion, high respect; their business, unremitted attention. It is his duty to sacrifice his repose, his pleasures, his satisfactions, to theirs; and above all, ever, and in all cases, to prefer their interest to his own". This was part of his speech to the electors of Bristol, in the United Kingdom.

I should add that I find your references to he unalienable rights of man rather bizarre when slavery was legal in the US until 1865, long after the practice had been outlawed in many other countries.

I wish people would open their eyes.

Jordan Sekulow is the type of illiterate Christian fanatic who helps make America the most hated nation in the world- after probably Israel, of course.

It is crazies like him that caused the US to start ways in countries to steal their land- er, bring democracy of course. Wars that they're easily winning thanks to the work of Jeebus (lol).

American Exceptionalism- right. That's why you have a trade deficit with respect to the whole world, a Third-World infrastructure, a pathetic Housing Market and need big bad 'Wahabbi' Saudis buy the loans of your bankrupt banks and farmers. No wonder you have to import 70% of your PhDs, the average American is a brainwashed religious nutcase!

As a Christian I think it is sad how Christians like you are willing to lie and manipulate the faith to deceive people about the true history of religion and government in America. I will never understand the gall it takes to justify the idea of lies and deception for God is OK. You do more harm than good with your propaganda, and are as much a threat to religious freedom and Christianity in America as fanatical Muslims, Christians (Hutaree Militia, Timothy McVeigh), Mormons (fundamentalist) and Jews can / could be. You should read 'The Great Debate of our Season' http://motherjones.com/politics/2005/12/great-debate-our-season and 'Original Intent'
http://motherjones.com/politics/2005/12/original-intent for the truth of religion and the American government.

Being a disciple of the Good News is practicing generosity and hospitality; living non-violently without vengeance; living here and now as one family where all are invited, welcomed, and included without exception or qualification; living in constant relationship with God; and living here and now – not later and not someplace else – living here and now a life transformed by resurrection. The Good News – without application here and now, without making a positive and practical difference in the life of the disciple and especially in the involvement of the disciple in the lives of others – is useless and meaningless and is not the message lived and delivered by Jesus and is not of God.

The Good News did not and does not succeed because of miracles. The initial success of the Good News was in how it demonstrated that anyone – even someone oppressed into complete oblivion by an empire - could live a resurrected and transformed life even in a world where death, cruelty, corruption, crime, war, systemic injustice, slavery, and extreme poverty were so rampant as to be the norm. Their success in living a resurrected and transformed life even in such a world is completely relevant to our time and for all time. The Good News is that a life of resurrection and transformation does not have to be preceded by death. The Good News is that the kingdom of God is not a future event or a distant place or a strictly post-mortal existence. An “anticipated” kingdom of God is meaningless and useless. The Good News is that the kingdom of God has arrived, it is here and it is now and it is available to anyone – without exception and without qualification and without sacrifice.

- - - - - -

excerpts from "RECLAIMING the GOOD NEWS - an epistle" by Doug Sloan

http://dmergent.org/2010/08/05/reclaiming-the-good-news-an-epistle/

US-conscience, you said,
As to Wars and rumors of wars: there were.

hahahah... ooohhh....great prediction: there are ALWAYS wars and rumors of wars... that's like predicting the sunrise...

"As to nation shall rise against nation . . . there shall be earthquakes . . . there shall be famines: - there was. (check the archaeological and historical data )"

again, oooohhh...great prediction... that's about as prophetic as predicting the tides...

"As to many coming in His name saying they are he - there was."

see above...

"AS to "tribulation, such as there hath not been the like from the beginning of the creation which God created until now," - Read the historian Josephus' account of the taking and destruction of Jerusalem, it was absolutely horrific beyond description."

well, like i said in my previous post, i'm sure this was a traumatic event for local jews, but it hardly rises to the level of the worst thing that's ever happened since the beginning of creation.

btw, what's your bible version? i can't find "tribulation, such as there hath not been the like from the beginning of the creation which God created until now," in NIV, KJV, NKJV, ESV, NASB or YLT.

ok, so i'll grant that those things happened (even if the "tribulation, such as there hath not been the like from the beginning of the creation which God created until now," part seems way way jerusa-centrically exaggerated. the verses also say things like:

26 “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

how do you figure that happened? did jesus come an a cloud and we missed it? did he gather his elect from the "ends" of the earth? (this is another passage where jesus (the biblical authors, actually) reaveal their cosmological ignorance - they were living in the 1st-century world where the earth was flat and had "ends"...)

those verses also say:

“Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left."

this has nothing to do with the temple. to any unbiased reader, this would be part of jesus returning and gathering his elect. remember this was ALL promised to jesus' listeners.

i don't want to overload you, (and am running out of characters) so if you could answer these before i ask about other parts of his end-times prophesies that didn't happen.

DCSLOAN said "You do not think or believe your way into new actions, you act your way into a new way of thinking."

Your right, you do not "think or believe your way" - I never said that.

GOD does a supernatural act in you. The Bible calls it giving you a new heart, replacing a heart of stone with a heart of flesh, a heart that is soft and responsive to God and his laws and his desires.

Our response to what GOD HAS DONE in us ( all the good works and change in behavior ) is a RESPONSE to what GOD DID in us.

To Marcyc4 and walter in falls church. One must understand "apocalyptic language" ( the Bible interprets itself ) - Check out the prophets language back in the OT., you'll find a few different episodes where that same language was used ( the sun and moon darkened, the stars will fall from the sky and you will see the Lord coming in power in the clouds ) In both cases when this language was used it was about Judgment coming on a city or a people. Jesus is talking like the OT prophets here, almost quoting them. If one study's the OT prophets and specifically apocalyptic language you will see clearly that what Jesus is doing here is warning of Judgment. Which happened in 70 A.D.

As to Wars and rumors of wars: there were.

As to nation shall rise against nation . . . there shall be earthquakes . . . there shall be famines: - there was. (check the archaeological and historical data )

As to many coming in His name saying they are he - there was.

AS to "tribulation, such as there hath not been the like from the beginning of the creation which God created until now," - Read the historian Josephus' account of the taking and destruction of Jerusalem, it was absolutely horrific beyond description.

AS to

US Conscience said:
"The answer basically was within this generation He would return in judgment and this would signal the end of the age of the Jewish covenant and the beginning of the Church age."

Mark 13 says, among other things,
"3 And as he sat on the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,

4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when these things are ALL about to be accomplished?

5 And Jesus began to say unto them, Take heed that no man lead you astray.

6 Many shall come in my name, saying, I am he; and shall lead many astray.

7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars . . . ."

" 8 For nation shall rise against nation . . . there shall be earthquakes . . . there shall be famines: these things are the beginning of travail."

" 10 And the gospel must first be preached unto all the nations."

" 19 For those days shall be tribulation, such as there hath not been the like from the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never shall be.

" 20 And except the Lord had shortened the days, no flesh would have been saved; but for the elect's sake, whom he chose, he shortened the days."

" 22 for there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show signs and wonders, that they may lead astray, if possible, the elect."

" 24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

" 25 and the stars shall be falling from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens shall be shaken.

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send forth the angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."

" 30 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until ALL these things be accomplished."

All I can say is, if all he was talking about was the destruction of Jerusalem, Jesus was definitely messing with Peter, James, John, and Andrew.

US-CONSCIENCE:

You do not think or believe your way into new actions, you act your way into a new way of thinking.

DCSloan said:
"Our faith life in no way embodies, is connected to, or dependent upon or subservient to patriotic fervor or national loyalty or good citizenship. Our faith life is measured by how we attend to and improve the lives of others – by feeding them, quenching their thirst, clothing them, visiting them in prison, healing them, and welcoming them."

I agree with your explanation of what Jesus required of his followers. But the problem is, life is a lot more complicated than hands-on nurturing of the people one comes across in daily life. Tell Julius Caesar, Robert E. Lee, Richard Nixon, Nancy Pelosi or Warren Buffet that all they have to do to be saved is minister to the poor, sick and imprisoned, when the majority of their lives consist or consisted of making policy choices that have or had life or death consequences for millions.

And nowadays we each have some small power to influence the lives of others by voting on levys, electing people who do or don't believe in social safety nets, buying products that do or don't harm the environment, joining or not joining a military force that may or may not inflict terrible civilian casualties, having children or not having children when the environment is unfavorable to their thriving, etc., etc. It's silly to pretend that these aren't moral decisions. It's also silly to pretend that the Bible offers any useful guidance in making these complex decisions.

Jesus would be all for volunteer soup kitchens, but what can we learn from him about whether benefits should be extended for the long-term unemployed?

Actually the Declaration doesn't refer to "God," per se. Rather, the reference is qualified as "Nature's God" and "Creator". What is the significance? Well, the appeal is not to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, i.e., a personal God Who micromanages His creation. The appeal could as well have been made to Allah (The God), Deism's Divine Watchmaker (a concept that makes the notion of petitioning God ludicrous), or to the Druids' chief animistic god. The specific lack of reference to an unqualified Judeo-Christian deity is telling; only constructionist argument can lead to the idea that the author of the document was implying a special relationship of God’s “chosen” people or nation. Jefferson state that “all men are created equal,” i.e., not only those of the new nation.

US-conscience,
i know "destruction of the temple" is how you've been told to interpret those verses - given that what jesus predicted didn't happen.

that's why i call eschatology "rationalizations on why the hell jesus hasn't returned as promised".

really, if you're honest with yourself, and not worried about making the text match what actually happened, you'll be able to see what jesus was (supposedly) plainly talking about. he predicted the destruction of the temple AND "the Son of Man coming on the clouds" to "gather his elect from the four winds". come on, man. it was ALL supposed to happen. jesus promised "this generation" that "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away." i'm sure the destruction of the temple was traumatic for local jews, but to equate that with heaven and earth passing away and stars falling from the sky?! (this "stars falling" crap is a little unintentional insight into jesus' false cosmology: he thought stars were like little jewels bedecking our firmament dome.... and that they could possibly fall to earth, maybe setting people's houses on fire or something... hahaha.)

after describing the destruction of the temple, jesus (supposedly) said, "Immediately AFTER the distress of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’[b]"

a plain, uncontorted, not-rationalizing reading of these verses indicate that the destruction of the temple was supposed to be the first sign of the apocalypse, then the gathering of the elect etc...

“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father. .....Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left."

how does this plucking one person, but not another, out of the field have anything to do with the destruction of the temple? your "it's all about the destruction of the temple" interpretation doesn't take all of the text into consideration.

"[T]hey are in fact amazingly accurate predictions of an event that was thought of as completely unthinkable when they were given - the complete destruction of the Temple in 70 AD."

Yes, someone put those words in Jesus' mouth after Herod's Temple was destroyed and then everyone could be amazed at the "prophecy".

DCSLOAN - You say "he point is that by the time you develop the habit of feeding, quenching, clothing, healing, welcoming, and visiting prisons, you have created a new life complete with new values and new goals and new vision. Once you get to this point, you have discovered and claimed (not earned) and embodied your grace-given membership in the family of God, a membership exemplified by justice, love, and service."

I would say that a more theologically correct description would be : When God saves you, He creates in you a new heart, complete with new goals and new vision and new desires and the natural fruit of this new nature produces the habit of feeding, quenching, clothing, healing, welcoming, and visiting prisons. At that point, the fruits of your life are just one of the evidences and proofs ( a witness ) of your grace-given membership in the family of God, a membership exemplified by justice, love, and service." -

Walter in FallsChurch said:
"(aside from the fact that He was supposed to have returned a looooong time ago, per mk13, mt24 and lu21)

Unfortunately for you, all those passages you mention are when Jesus is answering the Apostles question "When is the Temple going to be destroyed ?" He then answered using apocalyptic language similar to the prophets of the OT. The answer basically was within this generation He would return in judgment and this would signal the end of the age of the Jewish covenant and the beginning of the Church age.
Dont feel bad though, many unlearned Church folk even misinterpret those passages as concerning the end times, but they are in fact amazingly accurate predictions of an event that was thought of as completely unthinkable when they were given - the complete destruction of the Temple in 70 AD.

From its beginning, the Good News has been apolitical and non-national. When pushed to choose between faith and empire, the way of the Good News has been to respond with non-violent defiance and refusal. Our faith life is not measured by how materially abundant or wealthy is our life and not by how much political or cultural influence we have. Our faith life in no way embodies, is connected to, or dependent upon or subservient to patriotic fervor or national loyalty or good citizenship. Our faith life is measured by how we attend to and improve the lives of others – by feeding them, quenching their thirst, clothing them, visiting them in prison, healing them, and welcoming them. Keep in mind that this is a deliberately incomplete list. It works in much the same way as when Jesus tells Peter to forgive, not 7 times, but 77 times – the point being that by the time you forgive someone 77 times, it has become, not an act that has been repeated 77 times, it has become a habit, a path, a journey, a way of life. The point is that by the time you develop the habit of feeding, quenching, clothing, healing, welcoming, and visiting prisons, you have created a new life complete with new values and new goals and new vision. Once you get to this point, you have discovered and claimed (not earned) and embodied your grace-given membership in the family of God, a membership exemplified by justice, love, and service.

"'It's a good thing that the non-fundamenatlist types completely ignore the Biblical passages you refer to, just as they ignore Jesus' clear prohibition of divorce followed by remarriage.'
"MaryC4,
"This is an amazing statement, given the fact that the highest rates of both divorce and unwed motherhood are found in the "fundamentalist" states of the South and West."

Haveaheart, you are right about the statistics. Pretty much everyone ignores that inconvenient pronouncement. But the fundiest of the fundies claim to believe that divorce and remarriage is immoral, as do Catholics. (Catholics invented Church-approved annulment to get around that, but statistically it looks like they got divorced.)

RE: Is America Blessed?

In a sense Jordan is right. Since god(s) are just imaginary creations of the human mind and nothing more. And because a majority of Americans actually believe such superstitious nonsense, then of course America is blessed, even if the "blessing" resides only in the fantasies of superstitious men.

walter-in-fallschurch

I am glad you have come clean about your fears. They are legitimate . Our world is an unstable place full of people that want to control it for their own selfish desires. This includes any and all means available to them. Don’t be afraid. Jesus came to save you from your worst fears. Not just from without but from within. If He is only imaginary, you asking Him for peace within won’t hurt. Maybe just your pride. If He is who He says, He will answer and you will have gained much. (Isa 65:1, Psa 145:18, Rom 10:12)

"It's a good thing that the non-fundamenatlist types completely ignore the Biblical passages you refer to, just as they ignore Jesus' clear prohibition of divorce followed by remarriage."

MaryC4,

This is an amazing statement, given the fact that the highest rates of both divorce and unwed motherhood are found in the "fundamentalist" states of the South and West.

Walter in FallsChurch said:
"(aside from the fact that He was supposed to have returned a looooong time ago, per mk13, mt24 and lu21) the "jesus is coming back soon" idea is still a viable idea to certain christians, and therefore is dangerous to the rest of us."

You're right that that idea is extremely dangerous. It's a good thing that the non-fundamenatlist types completely ignore the Biblical passages you refer to, just as they ignore Jesus' clear prohibition of divorce followed by remarriage.

If the Bible is good for anything, it's for functioning as the text equivalent of a Rorschach inkblot.

"There is no doubt that America has a special relationship with God."

I come from a family of immigrants. My grandparents on my Dad's side spoke only Ukrainian. On my Mom's side, my great grand-parents came from Scandanavia. My father taught at the Air Force Academy. My brother served in the Army and was killed in battle in Iraq.

I have to say that your opinions on American Exceptionalism fall so far short of the truth that they make me cringe.

Claiming the mantle of God as a nation is so staggeringly foolhardy that it leaves me at a loss for words.

We Americans need to consider our history carefully. We have had some wise and courageous leaders and we enjoy a certain amount of geographic isolation, not to mention some great real estate.

We need to spend more time on our knees in humility giving thanks. We are like everyone else on the planet. Our only exception better be that we are exceptionally grateful. Period.

The rampant homosexuality is an example of Gods judgment on this country. -- US-conscience

While I'd agree that Queer Eye For The Straight Guy wasn't such a great show, it wasn't that bad.

Well, it's the dominionist toady Sekulow boy once again spewing the Pat Robertson crap all over America. What a surprise.

What our founding fathers did that is really the most exceptional thing ever in human history is write a constitution based on the laws of man, not your god or anybody else's god.

Somehow you have managed to stretch the vaguely distant deist god of our founding fathers to mean the malevolent, despotic, corrupt bully god you worship. They would laugh you and your kind out of the building, but hey -- you're stupid, you don't know any better, you have daddy's buttocks to kiss and some other location on Pat Roberton's body to suck .. I suppose we shouldn't pick on you.

Our founding fathers produced a government that first and foremost protected their posterity against religious monsters like you.

"You have the freedom to reject the first commandment along with the rest. In America we have had much freedom of choice. No one is holding you hostage to follow their god. Our country has been berry-berry good to atheist and others. What is it that you really fear?"

Religious organizations like the ACLJ that want to destroy religious freedom so they can use the government to further their own intolerant religious goals.

The implication of your column is that you are telling us that God caused America to fight a war a century and a half ago among its citizens before finally freeing the slaves held in this country, because some supposed Christians insisted that God wanted them to have slaves. You imply that God supported the USA when we treated the freed slaves and their descendants as second-class citizens for about a century after we freed them, again, because supposed Christians insisted that it was God's Will. Apparently God had no problem with Jim Crow, but I don't recall when He endorsed it. Today there are still supposed Christians who think that it is God's Will that they are bigots, these people still think God gave the okay to treat minorities as second class citizens.

It makes much more sense to conclude that God doesn't care about this country any more than any other country. The difference is that fewer people in other countries blame God for the evil they do.

"While the first amendment guarantees freedom of religion, the first commandment prohibits it."

Of course the ACLJ's goal is to replace that amendment with their version of the commandment. They have demonstrated that they have no use for religious liberty that doesn't fit into their blinkered, narrow, Christianist misrepresentation of our history. They don't seem to understand that their theocratic desires are not only un-American, they are anti-American.

Thomas Jefferson would have laughed at the Right's lies about what he intended in the Declaration of Independence. It's a shame that they are so poorly educated in history that they cannot see that Jefferson was responding in this brilliant propaganda piece to the equally meaningless claims of kings that God was on their side.

apbenlulu, MaryC4 said,
"And he [jesus] wouldn't care about global warming either, because he would be coming back soon for the final judgment."

ah, yes, thanks for reminding me. in listing things i "fear" about religious people, i left out this sort of thinking. i suppose it's just part of having left the reality-based community, but "jesus is coming back soon" is a dangerous idea:

why worry about pollution, if jesus is "coming back soon"?

why worry about world population, if jesus is "coming back soon"?

why worry about starving children, if jesus is "coming back soon"?

why worry about space exploration, if jesus is "coming back soon"?

why worry about developing new medicines/treatments, if jesus is "coming back soon"?

in fact why worry about/plan for anything in the future, if jesus is "coming back soon"?

(aside from the fact that He was supposed to have returned a looooong time ago, per mk13, mt24 and lu21) the "jesus is coming back soon" idea is still a viable idea to certain christians, and therefore is dangerous to the rest of us.

According to Christian theology, the most important thing is to show love for your fellow humans in order to save your soul. Whatsoever you do to others, you do unto Jesus himself. American exceptionalists make no connection between what the government is authorized to do by its citizens, and what they as individuals do. They believe Jesus would have no problem with their country's government permitting the refusal of medical care to the sick due to their lack of money, inflicting civilian casualties during invasion and occupation, refusing refuge to desperately poor immigrants, or aiding in the creation of an economy structured to favor the richest of the rich, etc., etc. It doesn't matter what the "government" allows or performs. It is up to each citizen to save his or her own soul by performing acts of charity.

And they are probably right, according to the Bible.

According to the Bible, Jesus was born a Jew in Palestine when the Jews were utterly subjugated by Rome. According to the Bible, Jesus said the most important thing was not political power, or the military power to swan about the globe selectively "freeing" the people of nations that possess valuable resources. There is no record of a Jesus who preached revolution to the Jews. Apparently he wasn't concerned, because Roman occupation needn't interfere with saving anyone's soul. Jesus didn't encourage the Roman soldier to stop participating in oppressing the Jews. He preached private acts of faith and charity. Remember that Paul encouraged slaves and slaveholders to save their souls by doing the right thing in their roles. The important thing was to get to the right place for eternity.

So as a nation, American exceptionalists would say, we can do what we want, as long as we as individuals tithe and treat the people around us with compassion. And proof that this is OK is that God has given us wealth and power. As he did Rome, for a while. Hmm. Maybe not logically consistent there, but not contradicted by the Bible.

You do have to think that if the Biblical Jesus were hanging around in contemporary America, he would spend more time with poverty-stricken Louisiana shrimpers than BP shareholders. He would exalt those offering help to illegal aliens making deadly border crossings rather than those calling for more raids to flush out and punish illegal aliens. But he wouldn't be marching against the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan or for socialized medicine either. And he wouldn't care about global warming either, because he would be coming back soon for the final judgment.

It's pretty funny how both conservative and liberal Christians (including Jefferson!) cherry-pick the Bible to make a Jesus in their own image.

apbenlulu, you asked,
"Our country has been berry-berry good to atheist and others. What is it that you really fear?"

well, agreed, i'd rather be an atheist in america than in saudi arabia or iran or any islamic majority country....

nonetheless, in america i fear public schools "tip-toeing" around evolution and geology and astronomy for fear of offending someone's superstitious cartoon rendering of genesis.

i fear a person thinking god "chose" him to be president so he could go to war w/iraq. or just in general, having a president who resides in the mystical magical world of talking snakes and global floods. if one is irrational enough to accept those as literally true, well, one has left the reality-based community.

i fear religious people doing everything they can to keep birth control out of our children's hands because they interpret their special magic book as prohibiting birth control and/or pre-marital sex. (maybe it's fine if they want to keep knowledge and contraception from their own children, i suppose, but they often want to keep other people's children ignorant about sex and deprived of contraception.)

i fear religious crazies bombing abortion clinics (a rare occurrence, i know), but the belief that "god wants me to" is dangerous... (see above).

i fear religious crazies (of all stripes) bombing things because god told them to: there would be no "war on terrorism" and no full-body scans at airports, w/o religion.

i fear them inserting tripe like "under god" into the pledge of allegiance, or putting "in god we trust" on our money... oops...to late for that! they've already done it...

"while the first amendment guarantees freedom of religion, the first commandment prohibits it"
Posted by: walter-in-fallschurch

You have the freedom to reject the first commandment along with the rest. In America we have had much freedom of choice. No one is holding you hostage to follow their god. Our country has been berry-berry good to atheist and others. What is it that you really fear?

joe,
indeed, the "declaration" is not a legal document, and as i mentioned earlier:

it's important to note that the constitution, our actual founding legal document, mentions "religion" only twice - and then only to LIMIT its influence on government.

if we were to think of america as being "exceptional" and "blessed" by whatever god, we would be just like every other nation that ever existed prior to america's founding. EVERY country used to have a god/mascot.

so, in a way, america IS exceptional - in that we were the first country to oust god from government.

Posted by: walter-in-fallschurch | November 30, 2010 11:46 AM

The Declaration of Independence is NOT an official document of the Government of the United States of America.

Jordan Sekulow is a human rights attorney FOR RIGHT-WING CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIANS ONLY and Director of International Operations at the created by Marion G. "Pat" Robertson's misnamed "American Center for Law & Justice."

There is no such thing as "God's Country." Jesus said that he did NOT come to set up a political government.

The Bible ( Gods word ) says "Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord" - So to answer the question does "America has a special relationship with God?" the answer is Yes - it DID. Because of our founding fathers love and dedication to the Lord Jesus, this country was blessed and had a special relationship with God. Over the past century America has become a secular country and in fact disdains the Lord Jesus as God and encourages every type of false religion, vice and sin and idol worship. Consequently this nation has another unique relationship with God: one of judgment ! We, like so many European nations have been for quite some time, are now a Godless nation under judgment. The rampant homosexuality is an example of Gods judgment on this country. Gods judgment will be one day, ultimate - but now Gods judgment is that He gives one ( or a nation ) over to their own sinful desires and removes His hand of protection. Until and unless this country repents of its evil, self reliant, self centered ways, the future is not one of blessings but of ever increasing disaster and judgment.

^for so god loved the world he nailed his only son to the cross for the love and sin of mmankind^

for so god loved the world he nailed his only country to the other side of the cross for the love and sake and guidance and policeing of mankind???

same old exceptional delusional divisive mentality.

Walter-in-fallschurch

Thanks for your very good point that neither Judaism nor Chritianity stand for freedom of religion.

It's mainly because I'm a Christian that I find American Exceptionalism objectionable. John Calvin said that the human heart is a veritable factory of idols, and he was right. By claiming some divine favor, we find ways of excusing sin. If we do something morally reprehensible, it's OK because "God favors us".

British exceptionalism in the days before WWI ultimately led to the collapse of the British Empire. German exceptionalism gave us Hitler. American exceptionalism can lead us nowhere good.

Where is the Judeo-Christian principles do you find the right of free speech? Certainly not in the 10 Commandments, which forbids one from taking the name of the so-called lord (and, as a natural corollary to that, the lord's proxies on earth) in vain.

Posted by: KeithGold | November 30, 2010 4:17 PM
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indeed. but it's worse than that: while the first amendment guarantees freedom of religion, the first commandment prohibits it....

Funkknot

And yet, it is the most conservative Christians who refer to undocumented aliens as "illegals," as though their lack of paper-work, reduces them to a category that is sub-human.

These pious Christians, who think they are so much better than their fellow man, just don't get it, do they?

The problem of immigration is tough, but the Christian response to it is very straight forward and simple.

JamesK1

Being from Virginia, I know that Virginia hesitated in ratifying the Constitution, and was in fact the eleventh state to ratify it, after it had already become operational, in fact.

In those days, Virginia was the most important and influential state, and it did not seem very likely that the Constution would succeed without Virginia.

Therefore, Virginia agreed to ratify the Constitution if a Bill of Rights were added to it. And that is what happened, and that is why we have the Bill of Rights.

(Virginia was far more progessive in those days, than it is now).

The IDEAL of America was/is exceptional. The REALITY of America has been that who can be legally, socially, culturally, morally and completely "American" has never been defined.

God is God of the entire universe, not a nation. The Kingdom of God is not about national boundaries. Among Believers and followers of Christ, to claim God makes exception to worldly national boundaries is to make the same mistake the Disciples made at the beginning of Acts. They asked the risen Jesus if now was the time He was going to do away with Roman oppression and restore the Jewish Nation to dominance. Yet again, Jesus had to explain to them that they just didn't get it about God's Kingdom...that it is not a political, economic or military Kingdom, but a Kingdom that transcends worldly national boundaries.

Grace and Peace,
Funkknot

Apbenlulu,

You wrote the following:

"Those that enjoy the freedom of expression should be thankful that this country was based on Judeo-Christian principles and not Sharia.
But God YHWH had nothing to do with that... or did He?"

Where is the Judeo-Christian principles do you find the right of free speech? Certainly not in the 10 Commandments, which forbids one from taking the name of the so-called lord (and, as a natural corollary to that, the lord's proxies on earth) in vain.

Jordan, interesting that so many people comment on your writings.
Those that enjoy the freedom of expression should be thankful that this country was based on Judeo-Christian principles and not Sharia.
But God YHWH had nothing to do with that... or did He?

Posted by: apbenlulu | November 30, 2010 2:42 PM
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judeo-christian principles?!?! uh...no... america was founded on "age of reason" and "enlightenment" principles - against which judeochrislamic people are fond of railing...

"Creator" in the most generic and abstract sense.

You notice they did not want to call America "Jesus Land." The Constitution does not exalt Christianity.

While the Founders were religious in a decidedly below average way for their era, they were very outspoken about organized religion being one of the country's great enemies.

The main church was the Anglicans, who prayed for the safety of King George. Overwhelmingly, churches were for the King, and the state money they got in many states.

Jordan, interesting that so many people comment on your writings.
Those that enjoy the freedom of expression should be thankful that this country was based on Judeo-Christian principles and not Sharia.
But God YHWH had nothing to do with that... or did He?

Faced with the "Devine Right" of George III to rule of his colonies, Jefferson, in his draft of the Declaration of Independence, turned to "the Laws nature and Natures God" to empower mere men to usurp George’s divine right. Against the argument of devine right in 1776 – what else could he do? Now, however, Mr. Sekulow ignores the possibility Jefferson had invoked mere natural law (law whose content is set by nature and that has validity everywhere) and concludes that means “There is no doubt that America has a special relationship with God.” That “The Declaration of Independence acknowledges God's role as right-giver” and thus this country is special to God and exceptional in the world.

Perhaps this country is special because God gave up on George III and decided to bless us instead. But it seems to me Sekulow’s God given American exceptionalism has no more credence than George’s divine right had.

"There is no doubt that America has a special relationship with God."

I would like to see the evidence of that, Mr. Sekulow. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. And as others have already pointed out, to believe this, you would have to believe that God sanctioned, among other things, the genocide of the Native Americans, and the enslavement of Africans with its concomitant destruction of Africa. As to the latter misdeed, many Americans did believe that this was god's will, and sent their sons and daughters to their death to support this belief.

Of course, Mr. Sekulow should have no problem believing that genocide and slavery are expressly sanctioned by his god. It says so in his so-called holy book. Let us all revel in the truth that such a filthy being does not exist.

Anybody else notice the slight of hand (which isn't original to our Jordan, but popular on the right these days)?

"The Declaration of Independence acknowledges God's role as right-giver while the Bill of Rights and subsequent amendments recognize the free will of man."

The Declaration of Independence was written primarily by Thomas Jefferson in 1776. The Bill of Rights was written primarily by James Madison in 1789. It itself is an addenda to the original text of the Constitution.

Was this link between "their creator" and the "free will" of the Bill of Rights (which is silly--it doesn't grant "free will", it limits the powers of government) simply an afterthought 13 years after the fact?

This is the kind of article I'd expect from a guy who defends the rights of Christians only. If a right is inalienable, it doesn't have to "come from" anywhere. We don't need God to "give" the right to free expression any more than ratify the Law of Gravity.

God does not give a rat's behind about political entities of any size, shape or description.

If you believe God intended for us to inflict genocide upon the native American population, employ slave labor or put Mitch McConnell in order to advance "American", you need to get your head examined.

it's important to note that the constitution, our actual founding legal document, mentions "religion" only twice - and then only to LIMIT its influence on government.

if we were to think of america as being "exceptional" and "blessed" by whatever god, we would be just like every other nation that ever existed prior to america's founding. EVERY country used to have a god/mascot.

so, in a way, america IS exceptional - in that we were the first country to oust god from government.

Jim Nabors wants his style back.

We are exceptional in that we set the example for the free world by torturing prisoners of war during the Bush Administration. Let us all bow to the Aqua Buddha of torture. Yea, verily, yea. Exceptionalism lives.

"America is exceptional because the Founding Fathers accepted the notion that law is king and made it a reality"

NO! NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!

BAD xtian, BAD!!

Let's see... I'm an omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent being. Got some time on my hands. Think I'll do me some Blessing! Maybe that bit of the planet there, the one kinda north of the middle with the penis-looking bit hanging off. That's the ticket! Everything south of the snowy part and north of those effing Mexicans! Blessed! Screw all those other places. My will be done and all that. Now I'm going to have a spliff and a round or two of golf.

I have three words for people making an assertion that their country, ANY country, has a special relationship with the Hairy Thunderer: "GOTT MIT UNS".

"Thus, government cannot usurp fundamental, God-given rights without the express consent of the governed. And even when elected officials pass a law, Americans have the right to challenge that law's constitutionality in court without fear of government retribution"

And this entire process requires exactly ZERO Bibles, as the founders intended. Whether or not the rights were given to us by God, a god, or a creator, they only actually exist and are only actually valid because of a set of secular laws, ratified by the people.
Whether or not they are 'god-given' is actually irrelevent, one may as well say they were found in a cabbage patch or delivered by a stork. Without the secular constitution and legal processes to establish and protect them, they are meaningless, powerless imaginings, mere notions and concepts.

This guy violates his own Ninth Commandment by claiming to be a "Human Rights Attorney"

From Wikipedia:

The American Center for Law & Justice was founded in 1990 by evangelical Pat Robertson as a nonprofit public interest law firm.

The legal group is pro-Christian and pro-life.

It was conceived as a counterweight to the American Civil Liberties Union, an organization which Robertson maintains is "hostile to traditional American values." It has attracted much media attention for its lawsuits, such as its campaign to oppose changes to the constitution of Kenya that would permit abortion and Islamic law, [5] and its attempts to block the construction of an Islamic cultural center near the former site of the World Trade Center. [6] The ACLJ has supported blocking the construction of the center through the New York City’s Landmarks Preservation Commission, although the ACLJ in the past has opposed efforts (or what it perceived as efforts) to block churches in the same way.

Ah, yes. Our personal Lord and Savior wants us to deny certain religions the right to build houses of worship and to disenfranchise gay, Mexican and Muslim US citizens from their Constitutional rights as well. This is what makes America so Christ like.

If rights are truly given by God, then how are governments in other countries able to deny them to their subjects? Did God only give those rights to Americans?

"There is no doubt that America has a special relationship with God."

America is, as all countries are, an abstract thing. It exists our thoughts only. The borders that define it are not real lines on the surface of the earth, but imainary lines, that we see only on maps. The coastlines, are the etherial edge where the wetness of the oceans meets the dryness of the land. The Constitution defines a legal system of laws that likewise not real things, but abstract human constructs.

America as a collective of many hardworking individuals and economic and legal processes, exists in as an abstraction, only. America, as an intelligent being, does not exist. America does not think conscious thoughts, does not have emotions, does not worry about things; nor does it have any religious beliefs.

God has a special relationship with an uncsounsious nation-state?

Oh come on, please. I know people are not THAT stupid. I know that this misconception has more to do with mental laziness than stupidity.

Just think about it a little bit. Even Cal Thomas understands this, and he gets ALMOST everything wrong.

This is why America's Founders declared that God, not man, is the source of "unalienable rights." Fundamental, God-given rights are "endowed" to all people. -- JS

IIRC, the founders didn't use the word "God", they used "Creator"-- and that doesn't necessarily mean the Christian god. Also, equal rights were not originally guaranteed to all people -- women, African Americans and native Americans were not included. I'm certain the author knows all of this, but he has to ignore all of that, and more, to bury the fact that some of the founders were Deists and that even the best of them had a perverted view of equal rights. It's critically important to Dominionsts to make the "Founders" appear to be divinely inspired and much more than just economically self-interested white men.

Any leader who is too scared to proclaim American exceptionalism or who rejects it outright poses a danger to the United States and the free world. -- JS

That's pretty scary language. So, does the author think these leaders should be prosecuted and jailed for the benefit of the entire free world? I'm guessing not. I'm guessing that he'll settle for one leader in particular not serving a second term.

"Any leader who is too scared to proclaim American exceptionalism or who rejects it outright poses a danger to the United States and the free world." This sentence is tantamount to requiring a religious test for a governmental post in the United States. No religious test is also the written will of the Founders, Mr. Sekulow.