Simply Look Around. Evil Does Exist

Hi Thomas Baum,

You write:

"I have a question: Is the Book of Job considered part of Hebrew Scripture?"

Yes, of course. See my post on Susan Jacoby's thread, though.

Farnaz

FARNAZ2

I have a question: Is the Book of Job considered part of Hebrew Scripture?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

The problem with discussions of satan ("suton," according to my own custom of Hebrew pronunciation) is that the word is a common noun, not a proper one.

Another poster here has defined samach, tes, langernin (the Hebrew letters that spell "suton") as "accuser," and, "challenger." Though close, these definitions are more vernacular than precise: "opponent" and "prosecutor" would be better. In Second Samuel, for example, the Philistines forbid King David from going down into the battle, "lest he become l'suton (lit., 'for an opponent') to us."

King David, Satan? Not in anyone's book. Yet, there it is, in black-and-white: King David would have become Satan, had he gone down into the battle.

In fact, suton is one of G-d's angels - meluchim, in Hebrew, which is related to the Hebrew word, "meluchah," which means "worker" - whose assigned tasks are to oppose Jews in their service to G-d, and to bear witness against them should they fail to overcome that opposition. Think Job: "Do you believe in what you're doing, in bad times as in good, or is being a Jew just a habit?"

As for "evil," well, that's a question of teleology - do we perfect ourselves, and Creation with us, or do we conceal that which is essential G-dliness within us under ever deeper layers of removal from Him?

dryrunfarm@comcast.net

Paganplace: "'Actually, when you expect to see your own Satan with 'horns and a tail,' you're buying into a notion that the foreign is 'evil,' and looking for a way to justify it.'

*You* decided these trappings represented 'evil.' Then the Christians turned around and decided Jews were so 'evil' they must have tails."

Wrong. Judaism did not do this. "You" in your Catholic incarnation did it, endowing him with tale, etc. There is nothing akin to this in Judaism. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. That Satan, "yours," is a Catholic/Christian thing. There is no "Satan" in Judaism in the Christian sense.

In Judaism, there is "the Satan," which translates (literally) as "the accuser" or the "the challenger" of mankind, not of God. The concept operates at an esoteric level, which is why R. Steinsaltz probably chose to speak as he did.

I understand this business of Jews trying to translate for or accommodate Christians. It entails only good will, but IMHO, it's a mistake. Although Judaism is abstract, it is obviously understandable.

Again, "the Satan" is not in a conflict with God, not a rebellious angel, etc. There's plenty of information on the web concerning the Satan in Judaism. He/it represent the principle of evil. Beyond this, I won't go. It's esoterica, and R. Steinsaltz is infinitely more qualified to speak on it than I.

Dear Rabbi,

Your Kabbalistic sages have said, “. . . there is none else beside Him." So, why do you describe Satan as an entity. Please remove your mask and explain.

"When I expect to see Satan with horns and a tail, I won't recognize him when he appears as a well-dressed gentleman"

Actually, when you expect to see your own Satan with 'horns and a tail,' you're buying into a notion that the foreign is 'evil,' and looking for a way to justify it.

*You* decided these trappings represented 'evil.' Then the Christians turned around and decided Jews were so 'evil' they must have tails.

Remember?

Not a proud moment in our past, is it?

The fixation on 'Evil' and 'Satan' has gotten to the point where 'Christians' are trying to *evoke certain powers to hurt those who do not believe Satan is at work when other humans want to live unmolested by *them.*

I am not saying that no force or dynamic you would call 'evil' exists in the world , only that in my path, it does no more good to name 'Evil' than it does to 'exclusively' name 'God.'

Cause, frankly you want it easy. Lookit America. Where were you. Queerbashing in the name of 'Good.'

And while you're being once-born again, I'll be asking the Inis Avalon VA hospital to patch me up quick.

Not saying there's nothing like what you'd call 'Evil' in the world, only that you don't F'n have any idea how to cope with the *idea,* never mind the actuality.

It's like the word 'Commie.' The idea hurt more people than any party ever did.

Like... Don't care for each other, your elders, your sick, don't even look at the idea, that's 'Commie.'

So it is with your Devil.

Screw him.

Only problem is, it seems that in your dualistic world, monotheists, what you demand keeps coming out backwards.

Bloodily, and in bad ways. Talk about 'War For The Glory of Our God For Some Reason Meaning Trust Cheney and Curse Libruls.'

You got a lot of nerve asking about yer Devil now.

Cause the only time I heard that word from a monotheist the past fifteen years was someone, from the Popes to the dopes, accusing me of not knowing what I was about, religiously, while demanding...

This state of affairs.

Bon appetit.

"Satan also disguises himself by creating new norms of behavior. His vocabulary is filled with words like 'normal behavior,' 'wrong education,' and sometimes - 'necessity.' Often, these terms just hide evil that is made commonplace and normal."

Rabbi Steinsaltz,

While I agree with a poster on another thread that "Satan" is a metaphor, I think you have fingered one of the worst inclinations of human beings -- to diminish others by casting them as "abnormal" against a falsified definition of "normal." Certainly, this is an evil in human nature, a "Satanesque" drive to set and control the moral tone in a community so that what people think is "right" is, in fact, immoral.

Yes, we see it everywhere, but perhaps more often in the fundamentalist communities that are obsessed with forcing compliance and complicity on those who would practice their free will.

Thank you for pointing out what we so often overlook: that evil isn't always a matter of doing damage to another's body, mind, or soul; sometimes, it's a matter of just changing the scenery.

RABBI ADIN STEINSALTZ

I have heard it said that two of the most important weapons that satan posseses are that he doesn't exist and that he is more powerful than he really is.

satan happens to have many weapons, so to speak, in his arsenal. I would imagine if people think in only physical terms that may not think of these as weapons.

I don't know for sure but I believe satan knows our weaknesses and does what he can to exploit these.

I also believe that man's fallen nature affects different people in different ways.

satan can't make anyone do something or not do something but he sure is good at deceiving.

I know satan is real for the simple fact that I have met satan.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

With all due respect Rabbi, you start off with a disappointing logical falicy. "Anyone who simply looks around and listens - to large scale events or private affairs, to the criminal reports or just to everyday events - can see that evil indeed does exist."

You use the word 'evil' to mean an underlying unified force. That all evil things are connected or are all parts of a large evil entity.
and you use the phrase 'anyone . . . can see' to imply that any one's perception of things around them is the same as everyone elses.'
Personally, i can destroy your theseis by simply being an exception to it. I look around at large scale events and everyday events and see . . . large scale events and everyday events. I simply do not see an underlying unified force at work.
Do some people do 'evil' things? absolutely. But there is simply no logical reason to ascribe these actions to a greater, powerful 'prince of darkness' conspiracy. Unless you have some further data that supports your 'unified evil' theory.