Rosary Beads and Syncretism

Good site! I'll stay reading! Keep improving!

Good site! I'll stay reading! Keep improving!

ALM, the biggest difference is that the Eucharist is Jesus, not just a symbol or "spiritual" aspect of the devinity.

Alm - bread and wine is part of the passover meal and part of regular synogogue service. They pass it out on trays with little paper cups of wine and pieces of bread. They just call it bread and wine, not body and blood. That made it palatable for me.

Some of the early pre-christian cults were heavy in blood -- drinking animal blood, or having it drip on them.

As a denizen of Spanish-American Catholicism I thought at first that Stevens-Arroyo sounded so right because of my cultural bias. I'm starting to see that he just plain knows what he is talking about. Like the Jesuits versus the Franciscans as New World missionaries-- the Franciscans may have won out politically (way back when) but it seems to be the Jesuit method that has triumphed.

The Eucharist(or Holy Communion)is described by St. Paul in his letter to the Corinthians, which was written decades before the Gospel of Mark (the first Gospel to be written) and thus you are right,Ralph, that this practice dates from the beginnings of Christianity.

The closest parallel in Eastern religious practice is prasad, which is food that incorporates the Spiritual energy (Shakti in Hindi parlance) of Divinity.

Professor Marcus Borg, an On-Faith panelist, has published a book comparing many of the sayings of Jesus to those of Buddha. Jesus and Buddha: The Parallel Sayings (2002),

http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Buddha-Parallel-Marcus-Borg/dp/1569753180/ref=sr_1_1/104-9896956-2574367?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176392091&sr=1-1 .

An excerpt from the Introduction of the book:

"Most striking of all the parallels between Jesus and Buddha are those dealing with love..."

Viejete,

And of course Cal Thomas and Chuck Colson weighed in precisely as expected. And as expected, I will now foam at the mouth about Professor Stevens-Arroyo.

Mildly this time.

All of Christianity is syncretic, from the stories about the virgin birth, the miracles, the death on the hill, to the claims of resurrection on the third day. Even the day Christians celebrate the birth of their Son of God, all of it is a mixture of Hellenistic and middle eastern hero stories. One thing that seems to make Chrisitianity dynamic and appealing to so many people (and interesting to atheists like me) is that Christians have never stopped absorbing whatever is in the local milieu.

The hardcore elements, people like Chuck Colson, will choke the life out of it with their mindless rigidity. At the very least they become caricatures of themselves.

Very early Christianity existed as one of several hundred niche religions within the Roman Empire, and borrowed a lot especially from the cult of Mithra. Cult in that context just means another splinter faith, not a secretive and violent organization.

Once Christianity became the official religion of the Empire, they placed crosses atop all the buildings and artwork of other faiths, and placed Christian religious holidays on the same days as Pagan holidays. From these actions we can know that Christianity does not permit simultaneous membership in other religions, but that the faith does change through time.

One thing that is unique and consistent within Christianity is the religious rite of holy communion. It is first mentioned in the Gospels which appeared in the decades after Jesus's crucifixion, and has remained the most distinctive aspect of the religion since.

Things like yoga and meditation can be seen as different types of prayer practices that include different types of philosophies about the human spirit. However, since they do not touch the third rail of Christian doctrine, they meander in and out of popularity.

Ba'al
The voices you seek have already weighed in at Thistlethwaite's thread. You know them, Pablo who insists that any variation from his own narrowly defined Christian path is the road to Hell, and "Jesus is the Only Way" who pastes in the same list of Bible quotations for every question.

Yoga is good for your health, it builds strength and flexibility. I am curious to see if there are Christians who say you will go to hell for doing it.

To Henry James & Steve B,

Merry We Meet! I've enjoyed reading your posts, and I hope to see more.

Maybe Pablo will show up. He is a True Believer. He would insist that I was worshipping the Creation over the Creator, and I would insist you couldn't separate the two! We never did reach an agreement.

Thanks Henry.

I'm in favour of any way that people can find to more closely experience the Divine, as long as it doesn't turn them into asshats. In my case (and Henry's, by the sound of it) I get something from seeing nature as sacred and beautiful. (And deity as both male and female, but that's a whole different post).

Some other faiths see this world as flawed or irrelevant compared to a promised afterlife, and that's fine too, but it's clear from the history mentioned in the main post and from the increasing numbers in neopaganism today that people often need different paths.

So when I see forums like this open to the idea that you can get a sense of sacredness and joy from communing with nature (or meditating, or yoga), and that *this isn't inherently evil just because it wasn't originally sanctioned by Rome*, I think it's brilliant. I can point you to tens of other sites that don't go that far in the name of 'interfaith' dialogue.

Sure, there's a point at which bringing Buddhism into your daily practice would stop it being Christianity, but that's mostly about who's at the top of the cosmology, not whether you kneel or sit cross-legged when you shut your eyes in quiet contemplation. It may not be traditional, but the question is does that make it automatically "wrong" for the big 3 monotheisms to use?

(The answer might be yes. I'm interested to see what people say.)

Steve B, UK

As an adoptive son of the UK myself, I resonate with your insights, and with your paganism.

The Christian religions have succeeded in alienating themselves from nature and from other wisdom traditions in the world to an alarming degree.

I have become a worshipper of the Moon lately, so I suppose that makes me a Druid.

I find the communion with nature and animals helps me commune with the moral and spiritual being of my fellows more deeply.

I suspect that Christianity's concentration on the next world inhibits its understanding and compassion for this one in many cases. It teaches us to abjure our natures rather than to engage with them in all their complication.

Buddhism, as our friend Norrie points out, is the most highly developed spiritual practice we have in this regard, and i think is most compatible with most strains of Paganism.

May the Goddess Bless You,
Henry

Robert B:
Yes, I'm aware of the Church's deliberate policy of the time, as well as the pagan and other native roots of some buildings - and indeed festivals!

I'm pagan myself (in the UK) and am often stunned at how vehemently some christians stick to details of their faith or practice while denouncing 'the pagans', without knowing that the aspect they're talking about wasn't even incorporated until the Church borrowed it from the locals.

Which is fine. Some of the posts on this topic have been superb:
"God is not the exclusive preserve of these three monotheistic faiths."
"Religions do not exist to define different kingdoms but to enrich each other."
"No single faith has a monopoly on the truth".

Congratulations guys, you managed to have a multi-faith forum which is actually interesting and relevant to people who don't necessarily accept "The Bible is the only truth". It's very uplifting to see.

Dr. Arroyo,

I find your commentary most helpful in understanding my own position, having been called from my former Eastern path by the Holy Spirit. I do not discredit my former path, and still maintain a regular practice of meditation, using a mantra which incorporates the Name of Jesus Christ, which I received while in meditation.

To Steve --

Check out the letter of Pope Gregory the Great to Mellitus in 601 (?). The Church actually adopted a kind of syncretism as an official policy in missionary work, especially as regards temples. Dig down deep enough under any European cathedral and you'll find the remains of a pagan temple. :)

Mr. Stevens-Arroyo,

Thank you for another well researched and articulate post. I always enjoy reading your column, whether I agree or disagree.

I hope the WP is paying you for your efforts :)

Let me echo Steve, thank you for such an informed response. My first thought when reading this question was the massive "adoption" of festivals and symbols by Christianity when moving into a new area. Christians often have Christmas trees, which are a "pagan" adoption. The halo around Christ in many religious pictures is certainly reminiscent of Ra -- the Egyptian sun god -- symbolism. These are only a couple that pop to mind since I am not doing the impressive detail you did in your response!

This is probably the only time I have agreed with Mr. Arroyo. Scary. But I agree. Good Post.

I'm very impressed by this response. Thank you for such a knowledgeable and reasonable post - I was beginning to think they were in short supply on here (too much Chuck Colson, obviously).

I think your first two paragraphs absolutely capture the whole issue. I'm often amused by how the historical influences on the church from European and Eastern sources are ignored by some today.

Back in the 1950's, before yoga was well-known or widely practiced in the United States, I came across a book entitled "Christian Yoga" written by Jean-Marie Dechanet, a Roman Catholic priest.

Using the book I taught myself yoga, and derived great benefit from its yoga postures, and from the Christian prayers which Fr. Dechanet had integrated with the exercises and which I recited while doing the exercises. [The book is still available - just google it.]

This seems to me to be a fine example of synthesization, of benefit to Christians who learned Father Dechanet's yoga postures and prayers and integrated them.

I was "flirting" with Christianity at the time, and found considerable attractions in Her, but later abandoned Her for others. My fault, not Hers.