Counseling Chaplains and Earth Ritual Enactments

Hey, Eloist:

I just thought of a good metaphor from popular story, maybe'll help you understand how Pagans see ourselves in a diverse world:

See, we walk many places, learn many things, many join us, respect many ways, even if those ways or our way mean 'leave them alone.'

People from all over may like how we do things, choose to join up and add to the mix.

We're not an "Army of God" (Or Gods.)

We're Starfleet.

*sigh.* I'll thank the anonymous poster for correcting Elohist, but I should probably address the repeated semantic argument that I must 'really' be a racist, despite my own feelings and explanations.

" Eloist:

"Paganplace:
For your info, santeria is not capitlized in Spanish. So in addition to being against people of color you are against bilingualism? In the absence of logic, you rely on nit-picking: that's lame."

Are you serious? Read that bit back to yourself.

It so happens my Spanish is elementary at best, and besides, I'm speaking English, right now.

I'm not against biligualism, I've studied (counting on fingers) Seven languages. Gods know how many I've had to try and deal in when need arose. Pretty useless in most of them, frankly, but, no. I'm not against bilingualism. That doesn't mean we don't capitalize proper names in English. As you seem to refuse to do.

"Your logic is also faulty. Santeria is not paganism according to you because it includes Christian elements. Then by that logic, Christianity is not Christianity because it include "pagan" elements, like a Christmas tree."

Umm, no, you brought in ...whatever that 'logic' is supposed to be.

Certainly, on the topic of American Pagan chaplains, it's silly to 'accuse' American Pagans of things associated with Santeria when it's just not the same thing.

"Admit it, African religions are just as pagan as Paganism, but you define Paganism as a white religion. That's racism, isn't it?"

Umm, no, we're not a 'white' religion. The name Paganism is applied, yes, to Western Pagans reconstructing ancient (yes, generally Occidental) faiths in a modern world.

African religions may be 'pagan,' even Pagan in a broad sense: we certainly see many worldwide traditions as kindred spirits, and, yes, broadly -connected, but they're not part of the Neopagan movement per se. They have their own, generally unbroken religions which are worthy of respect in their own rights, and generally don't need or want the additional scorn of being lumped in with "Fluffy New-Age people who invented a religion in 1954."

Pagans are pretty "notorious" for not seeing the world in "black and white" in both senses of the term, ...this is in fact one of the elements most used to discredit us.

As a matter of fact, there *are* people of all colors and origins in Paganism. We tend to see our heritages as a coming together of many tribes, in our communities, and particularly as Americans, in our own selves. I'm glad to be both Irish and Italian (and a mixture of everything that came of some more well-travelled ancestral lines) ...I live in a land much influenced by Britain and Ancient Greece and Rome, as well as the Middle East, and I grew up on land where I could feel the previous inhabitants' presence.

This is all part of one American Pagan.

Yes, Paganism as conventionally-defined, looks pretty 'white,' to those who see things that way: part of this is, frankly, that people of other colors usually have their own unbroken or less-broken traditions to look back to.

This doesn't mean that Pagans exclude people based on color, ...far from it. Took a minute to take account, but I can think of four black people offhand I've celebrated with that I consider to 'outrank' me as Pagan clergy in whatever sense a Pagan can say that... we get folks from all over, but the fact is, we aren't out to 'convert the world.' Folks come to *us,* and it's just more likely they'll find something 'closer to home,' first, as compared to "white" folks who *do* often have an idea there's something more to who they are than what they've been told.

People considered 'Black' or 'Brown,' or 'Aboriginal' in the world usually meet the likes of us *after* they've found something 'closer to home.' We get along great.

Frankly, I think *too much* of religion in America thinks "tolerance," (what's to tolerate?) or "acceptance" means, "Oh, we're trying to assimilate *all* of y'all and make you just like us. Aren't we tolerant?"

It's kind of like when they say to me as a queer person, "Oh, we're not anti-gay: we believe that *Everyone must be forced to be straight.*"

It's just not how we work. If anything, Pagans are often rightly-cautioned to *not* speak for 'aboriginal peoples,' even if we share many common values and conceptions and worldviews.

Makes a great dance, that.

Frankly, as this debate goes, people defend the discrimination against us based on the idea we *don't* have cohesive values and practices, then you're saying we're 'racist,' cause we *do.*

They're just not *imposed.* They *grow.*

And that doesn't mean the demographics are some *ideology.* It's just where they are, right now. Frankly, in just about any Pagan circle I know, getting racist would be about the fastest way to meet general scorn that I could think of.

If you're going to say I must be a horrible person for not failing to capitalize the name Santeria, well, return the courtesy to Pagans.

Again, the problem is that if you try to define us out of existence as a religion, it's *your* faulty logic that says we're 'exclusionary' because we simply are.

That's nothing against anyone else's practices, but, frankly, modern Pagans don't do the stuff we're often accused of to frighten people.

No, animal sacrifice as magical practice is not part of the movement in general, (some Pagan homesteaders who raise animals do slaughter food animals with some ceremony, don't get me wrong, but that's a pretty specific context I don't think you'll find in the military, to be sure,) ...the Professor certainly attempted to try and make us all seem scary and 'freaky,' by trying to connect our religion with some of the popular practices of Santeria, or santeros, if you like.

It's just not done that way.

I mean, I totally respect the Orishas, there's a *lot* of what we see in the Gods in them, (we actually love the different view, to be honest) ...but there's simply a lot of stuff in Santeria that just wouldn't fly with your local Neopagans.

There's a very different ethics and etiquette about it, even in terms of making offerings, (I've been asked to make a few in my roles beyond the religion I call 'home;' ...this gets into the interesting cross-cultural world of 'urban magical folk... It's very important in Santeria that you don't do it the 'Pagan way,' or the 'Wiccan way,' ...you do it *their way.* (At least the best you can.)

It's different. That doesn't make it 'bad' or 'inferior.' Just *different.*

And I think this is an important thing to emphasize on the issue of Pagan chaplains:

Not only do we have our own ways, we respect others'.

As for nitpicking, you're the one apparently intent on proving I'm a 'racist' for using a capital letter, and trying to insist my people don't have a 'real' religion by refusing to do so when asked.

That's not even nit-picking, that's *nit-placement.*

htfmidc tehvszjab xzyvt ajdri trvnylob yifatum ruozjwy

htfmidc tehvszjab xzyvt ajdri trvnylob yifatum ruozjwy

htfmidc tehvszjab xzyvt ajdri trvnylob yifatum ruozjwy

htfmidc tehvszjab xzyvt ajdri trvnylob yifatum ruozjwy

Viejita
Yes I did get away from the forums weekly question. When Santeria comes into play the focus tends to narrow down considerably.
As for whether military Pagans deserve their own faith counselors;
All soldiers receive a pair of dog tags that are stamped with ones personal info. - That is Name,ID#,Blood Type, Religious Preference. This information enables the military to identify and properly care for their soldier. Say a soldier is blood type-- A. Positive with a religious preference in paganism, by no means would the military provide this soldier with blood types B.or O for obvious reasons. The same reasoning should hold for the G.I.’s religious preference.

4th watch
No disclaimer, I just don't know anything about most of the non-US varieties. And this discussion is about the US military, hence US Paganism.

Mary Cunningham,

But at least I am fair in the summarizing the current state of contemporary religions. For those that do not know the situation, here again is a short synopsis:

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was probably a mythical character. If he was real, he was at best a combination of at least three men. 1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT.. http://www.simpletoremember.com/ ...vativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth. Analyses of his life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists)via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian sects. See the many books written about the Historical Jesus in the past 200 years via www.amazon.com.

3. Mohammed, an illiterate, hallucinating Arab, also had embellishing/hallucinating scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the Koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

4. Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

5. Hinduism (from an online Hindu site) - "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centred and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’"
The caste/laborer system and cow worship are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."

"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life.

http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/BUDDHISM/SIDD.HTM

Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations/embellishments and myths surrounding the founders of said rules of life.

Eloist:

What? Paganplace has never said anything about color. What she said was that she was according Santeros the respect they deserve by 'not' grouping them together with Pagans, as per THEIR request.

You'd better let the African religious-based folk speak for themselves about whether they want to be considered as part of the Pagan umbrella or not. It's not up to us to say.

CCNL,

Must agree that it seems slightly surreal to demand a Pagan military chaplain without first checking to see how many military Pagans there actually are.

And then to spend two weeks discussing it.

However, this does not mean I agree with any of the claptrap you post about hallucinating Jesus and you're way out on the contribution of neoconservatives to peace in Northern Ireland too!

(There wasn't any contribution--neos like war and hostilities in Northern Ireland have ceased.)

Paganplace:
For your info, santeria is not capitlized in Spanish. So in addition to being against people of color you are against bilingualism? In the absence of logic, you rely on nit-picking: that's lame.

Your logic is also faulty. Santeria is not paganism according to you because it includes Christian elements. Then by that logic, Christianity is not Christianity because it include "pagan" elements, like a Christmas tree.

Admit it, African religions are just as pagan as Paganism, but you define Paganism as a white religion. That's racism, isn't it?

Mary,

Finally some numbers but still no data supporting the comments about the "number" of Pagans in the US military as compared to the number of Jews and Muslims in the military. If you assume that the Pagan website's listing of 4300 Pagans in the US military is correct and then compare that to the numbers of Pagans in the various religions/cults you have reported, there would be very few of any single pagan religion/cult group members in the current US military population. So I ask again, why are we having this discussion about Pagan chaplains??? Maybe a Sioux medicine person would be sufficient to represent all pagan military members?

Gracias Viejita for your response. Could not help but notice how you seem to specify
-American Neo-Paganism-, am I reading too much into this, or is that a disclaimer on foreign Paganism and its activities?

A few more keystrokes yielded following:

1st number is adherents (2004 estimate)
2nd is %Population

Hinduism: 1,081,051 0.4%
Unitarian Universalist: 887,703 0.3%

Wiccan/Pagan/Druid: 433,267 0.1%

Spiritualist: 163,710 0.05%
Native American Religion: 145,363 0.05%
Baha'i 118,549: 0.04%
New Age 95,968: 0.03%
Sikhism 80,444: 0.03%
Scientology 77,621: 0.02% +22%
Humanist 69,153: 0.02%

Source:http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html#religions

Well, Concerned I think you are completely justified in asking for numbers. All these frenetic posts pro and con (mostly pro) and no numbers supplied!

Anyway, I started with the CIA website which doesn't list pagan as a religion, although the date of its source was 2002. However it did list 'other' as 10%, although this seemed much too high. An NGO search came up with a number of about 400,000 adults. 750,000 adults plus children, but confined its enquiries to 'Wicca'. So it seems we are talking about a very small number, although you certainly wouldn't know it by the number posting here!

>A quick search yielded the following results:The massive American Religious Identification Survey (ARIS) is probably the most accurate source for religious identification. 1

http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_nbr3.htm

What would be interesting are numbers of sympathizers of James Lovelock's Gaia Movement (count me as one!) which cuts across the boundaries of formal religion. Might be a good topic for future.

Probably, for that matter, you'd just wait till it got lost in more posts and start spamming untruths again as if they'd never been refuted.

They call it 'Swiftboating' these days.

I mean, what'd happen if I *did* spoon feed you the data again?

Would you go, 'Oh, I guess I was wrong when I said all that nasty stuff?'

No, you'd just say it doesn't matter anyway and try to justify your crap in another way.

Sorry.

Go get informed.

It's a matter of public record. And there's Pagan organizations who have some idea the minimum number likely present.

Again, you spam all threads with this. You look it up, if you're so 'concerned.'

Frankly, it doesn't matter. Pagan troops exist. There are more than there are Muslims. There are plenty of Muslim chaplains.

It shouldn't even be a question whether there *should* be Pagan chaplains, unless someone erroneously believes it's the military's job to make theological decisions on whose religion is 'real.'

What it comes down to is that your statistics don't match reality.

You're the one who needs to back up your assertion that the people, several of whom have posted here, don't exist and should not be served.

First Pagans are traitors of some kind cause you say we don't 'fight the war on terror' by sitting at home and saying Muslims are evil, then you say those that are being shot at don't exist.

I mean, you're kind of on top of the trollfile right now, so I look in there now and again, Concerned, but, this doesn't mean I choose to spend my time indulging assertions with no merit in the first place.

The issue isn't practicably 'A chaplain for every Pagan,' but, you know, there's enough Pagans in the military that they seem to gather in large enough groups to be treated unfairly and with great indignance by the Christians.

Kind of funny I moved to a strange place and with no foreknowledge have found all these Pagan neighbors.

Either there's more of us in general than you think, ...Or there really *is* something to this magic. :P :)

4th watch
The story you cite is as representative of American Neo-Paganism as David Koresh's sect was representative of American Christianity. Both are murderous madness using the name of a legitimate community.

Paganplace,

Still looking and I still cannot find any reference to support your statements about the number of Pagans, Jews and Muslims in the US military or how many have died in Iraq.

I am surprised that not a single Pagan or Santero/a will proffer their insight concerning the pagan rituals detailed in my previous post.
My question still stands, “Who are the real pagans” Sara the santera claims she is----------is she?

And, Concerned, my refutation of your post is on another one of the threads you cross-posted to.

Since you apparently intend to engage in sincere dialogue on your point on all these threads, I'm sure you can find it.

" Eloist:

No Paganplace: you said it and you're stuck with it. You said that Santeria is not paganism because you said it is not."

No, I said it because *Santeria* 'says' so.

It certainly doesn't make me 'racist' to respect that, as you accused.

" You make the word "pagan" into your own religion and deny that title to santeros."

I don't 'deny them a title,' ...and if it were, why can't you capitalize it?

" Why? Because you only talk to the santeros who don't want to be called "pagan." That's on the borderline of racism, since most santeros are of color and -- from why I can see of your remarks -- pagans are not."

This is part of why Santeria is a separate tradition from Paganism. They do not generally appreciate being 'appropriated,' and certainly, they have practices which some Christians lump in with ours, usually to say 'Pagans are barbaric animal sacrificers' but simply aren't part of the movement, or our context.

" There are a lot more pagans in the world who have been around a lot longer than you with your miopia."

And I respect them. If they call themselves Santeria, and say they don't want to be considered Pagans, then fine.

It seems your argument for me being 'racist' is entirely dependent upon the notion that there's nothing *to* either of these traditions than semantics and people calling themselves things.

You defame me.

If they want to call themselves 'pagan,' then fine. They don't fit the term Pagan, no. It seems that neither Pagans nor santeros have a problem with this.

You're just manufacturing one.

At least after I've had to post a few times, consider that it's *out of respect* whether you agree with the semantics or not, before you go making accusations.

You grow up.

1989 was quite a year for Santeria. In the spring of that year a young man (Mark Kilroy) was kidnapped in Matamoros Mexico. The kidnappers were santeristas who performed human sacrifices in their pagan rituals; wich is what befell the young spring breaker at a place called Rancho Santa Elena. This group of santeristas made their living smuggling drugs and humans across the river into Texas. The leader (Constanzo) had a penchant for wearing jewelry made
of human bones. His high santera, Sara Aldrete was a college student at Brownsville Texas. Kilroy was only one of many who were stalked, beaten, and taken to Santa Elena to be sacrificed to these people’s
(gods???). After her capture Aldrete told reporters they only practiced Christian Santeria, and that the human sacrifices made them invisible when smuggling their contraband. Aldrete when questioned further on Santeria responded , “I don’t think the religion will end with us, because it has a lot of people like us in it.”

My question is who are the real pagans? Sara and her ilk believe that human blood rituals confirm them to be the legitimate santeristas while others are merely dabbling in pastels.

Mark Kilroy’s parents authored a book (Sacrificed) on this tragedy; hope all parties will read this account.

And in any case whatever are you doing up at 3 AM posting abuse on the Internet? Where do you live? Somewhere in the Middle East...Israel or Lebanon maybe? Lotta mean folk in both places.

Ba'al:

What an excoriating, angry outburst!

Why are many atheists like you so furious? You and your prose don't do much for your cause and that's for sure! And you--an educated man and a scientist, or so you say.. Well, you could use some tutoring in rhetoric and logic--and courtesy btw-- that is for sure.

'Auld' is the terminology for old in the Irish vernacular. The Old Woman of Ireland is a mythic figure.

Protestant, atheist England is how many in the west of Ireland viewed England, especially the great cities... When I grew up, there was no love lost between the two countries, although today there is more amicability. The IRA ceasefire in 1994 followed by the Good Friday agreement have helped immensely.

But you just like to rant and rave, even when you write anonymously I can always recognize you by the violence of your prose...It doesn't bother me, bullying Ba'al,I think it's funny, but it's bad for your blood pressure, y'know.

Crazy Ba'al, I don't dislike you, but you should learn to calm down a wee bit.

No Paganplace: you said it and you're stuck with it. You said that Santeria is not paganism because you said it is not. You make the word "pagan" into your own religion and deny that title to santeros. Why? Because you only talk to the santeros who don't want to be called "pagan." That's on the borderline of racism, since most santeros are of color and -- from why I can see of your remarks -- pagans are not. There are a lot more pagans in the world who have been around a lot longer than you with your miopia.

Grow up. You don't know everything and do not have the power to dictate who is a pagan and who is not.

Mary Cunningham rants about being close to the land and understanding paganism because she is Irish and it is green there, and she is privy to some sort of racial memory you get from spelling Old "Auld", even though she is really Catholic. Or something. It wasn't particularly coherent, but her comment about "Protestant atheist England" did stand out, rather more than whatever it is she was trying to say about pagans.

What an incredible sanctimonious bigot!

http://www.milpagan.org/media/statistics.html is the cited source of the # of Pagans in the US military. A Defense Department reference would be the only real source of accurate information.

But let us do the math anyway: 4300 Pagans/6702 military bases (http://www.globalpolicy.org/empire/intervention/2004/01bases.htm) or less than one Pagan per base on average.

There are probably more Pagans working for Wallmart. Maybe they should add a few Pagan chaplins to the "welcomers".

And there are probably a heck of a lot more atheists in the military. Another positive for atheism. No chaplins required!!

And with so few Pagans in the military, why are we discussing this issue?????

Mark,

Someone made up all the things that religions do today. What they choose to keep what seemed to work. We Wiccans do the same. We try out something and if it works we keep it. If it does not work we toss it. Eventually we have what actually works in our experience.

Now if one is initiated into a Wiccan tradition, one has less to make up, even so one will over time make changes to fit personal needs. I happen to be initiated into the Alexandrian tradition and it has so forty something years of tradition built in.

Even eclectics rarely invent everything from scratch. You will find one thing about Wiccans is that we do a lot of reading and research in becoming what we become. My own Wiccan library is over 200 books that I have bought over the years. The basic Wicca 101 books contain basic ideas that have been used in Wicca from the beginning back to Gerald Gardner. There may be variations but the basics start there. Now once you have the basic idea of how ceremony goes, casting a circle purifying the circle, calling in the four guardians, the Goddess and the God doing ritual and then cakes and wine and thanking the various ones you invited in and opening the circle you have a pretty basic order of how to do things.

Now a Wiccan may like to add something to the basic frame work, and occasionally may subtract a few things, but I have worked with people of various traditions and complete eclectics who did it on the fly and I have never had a problem working ritual with any of them.

So no we don't just invent it all and change it all the time. Our changes come through our experience of what we learn in the process of doing ceremony, keeping whatever works and tossing the rest. Really not that different from ordinary religion. Individual ministers all have their own style.

I could tell that you spoke without knowing much of anything about Wicca, so as a person of 23 years experience I was happy to clear somethings up for you.

Now I was more disappointed in the author of the article who is a professor in religious studies and I would expect him to research his material a bit better before writing an article. Ah scholarship is not what it used to be, even in religious studies.

Dear Friends,
thanks for all the posts, I enjoyed them very much.

I was rather disappointed to find that Prof. Stevens-Arroyo used the word warlock in his essay.....he must know very little about Paganism to think that we would ever use that word.....

I found the posts about the whether Santeria is part of Paganism or not to be very interesting. I am initiated into both Santeria and two families of Wicca. I also know people who are initiates of Umbanda and Voudoun, as well as being Asatru. People like us may be rare, but we exist.

Religions call to our emotions, that is part of why they are so personal. I adore the Orisha and the Lwa, as I adore also the classical pantheons, the Egyptian pantheons, etc etc. But my tutelary deity is Freyja. I am aware of the apparent contradiction of my beliefs and practices to many Christians, but the customary boundaries within Christianity are meaningless to me.

I also agree with sadness that their are racisms within religions. Some people object to me loving the Orisha because they consider my involvment with African diaspora religions to be cultural misappropriation, or some passing passion on my part. I say to them, my road to the Orisha began in 1976 and has included a lifelong devotion to Africa and people of African descent. I have visited Africa twice. I love Africa and have manifested benefits for Africa on more than a few occasions. I am secure in my devotion. If we humans look back far enough, we are all Africans. Some of us have long memories.

I couldn't help wondering if there was a touch of defensiveness in the way Prof. Stevens-Arroyo wrote about the shell reading, and felt compelled to drag in animal sacrifice....He must know perfectly well what Santeria consists of, in contrast to Wicca, Druidry and other northern European forms of Paganism. Most Pagans are opposed to animal sacrifice, and many find it highly objectionable.

My reasoning in accepting animal sacrifice is this: I eat meat. I don't understand why people might object to killing an animal before the Gods and Goddesses, and then feeding people with the meat. If you look at human history, the belief that the Gods and Goddesses received the blood of animals destined to be consumed by the priests, the priestesses and the people is extremely common.

I am hoping that there will be a Pagan chaplain in the military relatively soon, and I think Pagans are on the cusp of attaining full religious rights. But I believe that continued misunderstanding and societal disapproval of animal sacrifice will hold back any of the African diaspora religions from public acceptance for some years to come.

Blessings from Caroline Kenner

His previous columns have shown Stevens-Arroyo to be very much in touch with the pagan roots of our Catholic faith. I think Paganplace must be correct, that he feels threatened by traditional beliefs' being appropriated by those who may lack the proper cultural bona fides.
Sort of like why I paint saints, but I've never done my own version of Nuestra Senora de Guadalupe. My background is too Anglo; I don't feel comfortable claiming her.

For a guy who is a exspert he seems to know very little about Pagans.

Elder G
Craobh Ruadh /|\

so the monotheists who have been killing each other in the western world for the, what? let's say 1000 years, a whole millenium, will hang together..but they do not trust that the pagans they thought they permanently got rid of and who in the 20th century returned resurrected and with a vengence. They cannot be trusted, is it commitment issues or the fear or the guilt of pagan resentment. Or is it the fear that polytheism is a more attractive religion and monotheists must be spared any contact with diversity and reasonable attitudes it engenders. Or is gender the real fear that we can not expect She worshippers to pull their weight. they can die in the foxhole but Heaven forbid they be blessed by their god before dying and not give yahweh or jesus or allah the patriarchal trinity a chance for their souls.

I mean, I gave away my copies of the prose Edda and Ovid, but if you'd like, I've got some wonderful little editions of the Scela Mac datho, the Audacht Morainn, ....a Kalevala, yer usual suspects like the Aeneid, the Descent of Inanna, and, let's see here, old, old.. Here, got me the Mabinogion, sorry, no Fenian cycle, but I'd like. The Tain Bo Culaigne, here's Sappho, Fiona MacLeod (relatively recent, only about a century old) Yeats, Cornelius Agrippa for a little old school ...whatever you call that, .... Got aunty Doreen, here, right between the Mesca Ulad and some Roman stuff...

Sorry if I didn't like get that right to you, we don't see books the same way and all.

Mark: What people tell you it 'seems' is not what we live.

I don't happen to remember saying I had a book that I considered an authority by antiquity.

You could borrow one of my translations of Lucretius, if that'd help you see me as an equal American, though.

Of all the comments I've read on here, Mary Cunningham's were the best and truest.

From what I've seen, wicca and paganism is a modern recreation. It has more to do with 20th century America than the past. It seems to be more of fad, like spiritualism was in the 19th century. The key thing seems to be "make it up as you go along" and worship of the ego.

I have yet to see a pagan / wiccan book that is much over a few years old.

Still waiting for that apology, btw, Elohist.

I mean, can't you see? Same proud defensiveness as the strident evangelical Catholic Mary Cunningham shows about Irish mysticism, quoting the authority of the West of Ireland, the land of my recent ancestors, but... actually *live* by it, and she says, I must be Sassenach. An outsider. A 'Saxon.'

Interesting?

This is less about religion than colonialism.

Well, Wiccan, there is a certain line of reasoning you can see in people trying to 'defend' indigenous (or hybrid) traditions based on some idea of 'really' being obedient to the Christian God:

They tend to presume white skin means New Age fluff, with presumptions they in fact hold some 'real' authority.

Cause they see lot of that, honestly.
No wonder, since they bend over backwards to 'justify' what needs no 'justification.'

It's not like being Irish you can't see how they try to enlist you as a 'conquered culture' to legitimize yourself in the language of the conqueror: "Oh, yeah, we're not inferior, we're *more* Christian than thou!"

...we see where that goes.

Nah, you hear a lot about that, actually. Certain Native American activists saying, 'You can't see spirits! That's the hoobahjoo *we* 'got better' than! What do you know!'

They're usually not actually listening to their *own* medicine people, either.

Folks that work it rightly insist we 'white people' have our own traditions, and encourage us find them.

If you listen. That's the thing. You gotta listen.

I grew up knee-high to a '71 Electra and people *still* call me *backwards.*

Just for being Irish. Forget about Pagan.

This is not so distant a memory as some will say.

How do you think it feels to someone from Puerto Rico?

After all this recent history of the past couple centuries?

Understandable.

Just doesn't make em an expert.

Not on me, anyway.

That's Ok. We're all improvising at this point, aren't we? :)

The Professor, like many people, speaks authoritatively about things he knows nothing of! Animal entrails indeed! I'm always astonished when people with pre-conceived ideas (from movies, it sounds like) tell me they know more about what I do than I do myself.

This is where you've been done wrong, you know:

The idea you need absolutes in your head.
That you'll somehow 'suffer' if you're 'wrong.'

Cause some program you to believe that you suffer *because* you're 'wrong.' About some 'absolutes.'

Whatever form those absolutes take.

Hardly matters which, does it?

We just talk and act some sense, we'll be OK.

It's how it always goes, I swear.

Any Gods that say different are welcome to test that hypothesis. Cousin. :)

Religion is only the problem when it or people *make* it the problem.

Yes, it often is, but then again no one said 'Religion' *had to be* what some make of it.

Pagans don't say 'Religion is the answer.'

It's just religion.

Anti-religion is not 'the answer,' either.

We do not *live* in "answers."

We live in questions, and breath, and dance, and brilliant, brilliant, brilliant human minds and hearts.

You, sir, need kneel to no one.

What you do need... is to let go of what told you you do.

Whatever you make of it, that's not the life you were *given.*

Breathe.

You'll find no Pagan arguing with you about the validity of the practical things of science, or reason, or human instinct.

Or that the Gods have gay kids, like any other parent. :)

We're humans. Like you.

Oblivion is closed.

'Hell' is *closed.*

We belong to tomorrow.

If I screw up on *reason,* or *kindness* or *justice,* then I need you to tell me.

It's not really about 'religion,' all that.

I'm sorry if between us all, we couldn't, here in the West, seem to really figure that out.

This hurts us all, yes.

But 'Religion' is no more 'The Evil' than 'Non-religion' has been said to be *by* religion, all this time, much to our grief.

It's people. It's a world. *You* are a *human being, and let no one tell you that you're anything less than all that can be.

You don't have to believe like me: actually, I'd get pretty darn nervous if everyone did. :)

You're human. Settle for no less, man.

Namaste.

oh jesus maria pleezee pagans or mormons rightwing baptist or muslims or catholics its all unproven hokus pokus. religion is a scam run by homophobic moneygrabbing dirtbags. all they want is your money and if you go to the catholic church you better watch your kids ,boys or girls. dear readers 'RELIGION IS THE PROBLEM AND NOT THE ANSWER"! take a look around you from iraq to iran from palestine to the white house its a total farce!

Paganplace, Thanks for the clarification. Stevens-Arroyo kinda surprised me on this one. I would have expected a Catholic with his deep mysticism to be more sympathetic.

Well, by military standards, and by this columnist's questioning of whether or not a Pagan *can* be qualified by some objective standard, obviously, he was.

According to what reports I heard, the gentleman in question served quite well, with the respect of all, Pagans included, until he was bureaucratically-ousted for making the change official.

ESL's story brings out an interesting point. If a member of the clergy who is also a military chaplain converts from one "approved" faith to another -- a Methodist becomes a Muslim, for instance -- are they automatically considered qualified to lead their new flock? Was there a consensus among this person's fellow pagans that his status as a former Christian minister made him automatically a Pagan minister as well?
In your example, you imply that he was so qualified, but I'd be interested in that process. I'm pretty sure a Methodist minister wouldn't automatically be made an Imam....

So, Eloist: *you* owe me an apology.

Santeria descends from certain cultures with a lot of unbroken traditions, and these folks have a proud identity of their own as such.

It's, frankly, not my place to appropriate their name, nor is it appropriate for Prof. Stevens-Arroyo to 'accuse' Pagans of things which simply aren't part of our religion, especially in terms of saying, 'Pagans have no real consistency but might go around sacrificing animals to their Gods.'

As a matter of fact, we're pretty darn consistent on not doing some things which Santeria, in its own (I think perfectly valid) context, tends to find central. There is a different view of divinity, of magic, of power, and how it's to be used, individually, and between people. I have a whole lot of respect for the Orisha, and many santeros, (several of whom are some of those white initiates who really had to earn the teaching with some serious shows of sincerity and dedication, so as *not* to seem to be walking in and appropriating the traditions they've worked so hard to keep alive.) It's just how it is.

Not our religion. What they share is on their terms, not ours. If that's 'racist' to you, I think you have something backwards.

And, how is saying that Santeria is not the same as Paganism a 'reactionary idea with racist implications, Eloist?'

Is it racist to say we have different practices and theology than Shinto?

There are in fact several similarities, but also key differences: Santeria is a specific religious practice that does not even call itself 'Pagan.'

This doesn't mean there's anything 'racist' about it, ...that must be something you brought to the table.

Heck, I *like* these guys, a lot. We have a lot to teach each other, in fact. It's just a different religion. That doesn't mean Pagans are 'against' it.

Maybe that's something else you brought.

Umm, Eloist, she said many Pagans have branched out into studying these other religions, not that they are the same.

" Athena:

I don't recall Paganplace saying anything negative about Santeria. In fact, many Pagans have branched out into studying Santeria, Voudou, and other African diaspora religions."

Yeah, I certainly have nothing to say against Santeria: I think it's fair to say we generally have excellent relations with these folks. Practitioners and I have helped each other out on a number of occasions, I've met a lot of real great folks, and lived among some of those who've studied it.

Dear Athena: Paganplace wrote "Santeria is a different religion entirely." You got it wrong: I got it right. You agree with me that Santeria is paganism, so why give a green light to someone like paganplace with reactionary ideas that have racist implications?

ESL: the first line in S-A article says he has no problem with pagan chaplains, but that the military authorities do. You agree with him, so why accuse him of saying just of the opposite of what he wrote? Could it be you're a bigot against people who are educators?

To Prof Stevens-Arroyo,

It frightens me that someone like yourself who is a supposed scholar of religion would know so little about Pagans or Paganism. It's a sad state of affairs when our supposed scholars would be so woefully misinformed.

Pagans, for the most part, do not disagree with modern science and take their roles as spiritual leaders, counselors and educators very seriously.

Brightest Blessings,
Rev Anastasia Keech
Ordained Wiccan Priestess ULC

To Prof Stevens-Arroyo,

Your point about properly trained chaplains is interesting given that a former Military Chaplain, converted to Paganism, and was fired. He had been a Christian military chaplain for many years and was fired because the organization that certifies chaplains withdrew its support for him because of his conversion. They didn't want to sanction a priest who "runs naked through the forest" or "sacrifices animals," none of which was true in this case nor, for that matter, in the overwhelming majority of cases. Furthermore, it illustrates the unfortunate bigotry and misinformation that still exists among Christian religious leaders.

Your response also indicates you have done little to learn about the process by which members of the faith become Priests/Priestesses or Celebrants. Though there is no institutional divinity schools like Christianity, most high priests/priestesses spend a considerable amount of time training to become what they are. Many are required to undertake a significant spiritual journey that sometimes involves meeting educational and spiritual benchmarks similar to that of other major religions.

The fact that you don't know this, but attempt to speak authoritatively about the subject is unfortunate and indicates a need to educate yourself further.

To Anthony Stevens,

Your point about properly trained chaplains is interesting given that a former Military Chaplain, converted to Paganism, and was fired. He had been a Christian military chaplain for many years and was fired because the organization that certifies chaplains withdrew its support for him because of his conversion. They didn't want to sanction a priest who "runs naked through the forest" or "sacrifices animals," none of which was true in this case nor, for that matter, in the overwhelming majority of cases. Furthermore, it illustrates the unfortunate bigotry and misinformation that still exists among Christian religious leaders.

Your response also indicates you have done little to learn about the process by which members of the faith become Priests/Priestesses or Celebrants. Though there is no institutional divinity schools like Christianity, most high priests/priestesses spend a considerable amount of time training to become what they are. Many are required to undertake a significant spiritual journey that sometimes involves meeting educational and spiritual benchmarks similar to that of other major religions.

The fact that you don't know this, but attempt to speak authoritatively about the subject is unfortunate and indicates a need to educate yourself further.

I don't recall Paganplace saying anything negative about Santeria. In fact, many Pagans have branched out into studying Santeria, Voudou, and other African diaspora religions. They've also encountered surprisingly little resistance from the babalaos (sp?) and other teachers. The Santeros are very happy to teach a bunch of like-minded white folks all about their faith.

Prof. Stevens-Arroyo:

I was more than a little disppointed with your essay. Your tone was belittling of the Pagan faith and that should beneath you.

In addition, you capitalized all other religions as if protestants, catholics, muslims, and jews are something special, yet when it came to Pagans, you purposely wrote "pagans" as if it is a dirty word.

You should be ashamed of yourself for your highly un-christian attitude.

Take some time to educate yourself about Paganism before you slander people you seem to know nothing about.

As a young lady I was raised to believe in Tinkerbell.
Though me friends laughed at me when
I wore my T.B.and star at school,the realization
that they thought I was a little crazy actually helped strengthen my faith.
It also helped that my religion had no church,because as mother said the whole world is our church,especially the bottom of our garden where pixies often gather at midnight.
I've tried many times to observe the midnight frolics in our garden,but the pixies were always ahead of me,and never appeared when I was spying on them.
But of course,common sense tells me that pixies
have good reason to remain unseen.People would
destroy them,just as they did in Ireland hundreds of years ago.
So,out of respect I stopped bothering them.
I don't need to see them,or Tinkerbell.
I mean I know they are there,and that's the main thing.And I know they hear my prayers.

Posted July 6, 2007 12:35 PM

So Paganplace, what do you have against Santeria? You are such a bigot saying that those who worship in these age old rights are not pagans. For your info, santeros have been practicing these age old rights long before white Europeans arrived in Africa. Just another example of how you nit-pick anyone who doesn't agree with your narrow understanding. Apparently your definition of pagan excludes blacks and latinos. Pretty sad. There are so many like you who abuse and accuse -- usually with conceited one-liners. You only show the shallowness. Let's get an apology on your racist exclusion of santeria from paganism.

Then again, there's 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell.'

Could I report myself to myself and claim clerical confidentiality? :)

If I had a chance of passing the damn physical, I'd say, 'Let's find out.'

:)

"Are they up to the professionalism required.....?"

I don't know, but if all you had to go on was the "professionalism" of Professor Arroyo-Stevens as evidenced by his essays in this forum, one could reasonably question whether Catholics should be allowed to be college professors.

Mr Stevens-Arroyo wrote:

"I’m not sure they would see their counseling role as one independent of worship rituals. Supposing that counseling would be conducted with rituals of reading shells, animal entrails and the like, I am unsure of respect from military authorities."

A provocative statement--but one that contains or references no actual evidence to support it. Chaplain training includes training in pastoral counseling, which is a part of being a religious or congregational leader in any religion, whether Buddhist, Hindu, Sikh, or Christian. While certainly some extended worship services in Afro-Carribean traditions involve extensive material requirements, there is equal occurrence, if not more, of communal and individual prayer to ask for guidance, and this is certainly true in traditions such as Wicca, Druidry, and Asatruar as well.

If it is convenient that Jews, Christians and Muslims can all direct their prayers toward heaven, then it is equally convenient that Pagan priests can also direct their prayers toward the respective abodes of their deities, and also outward toward the Earth and its inhabitants. Perhaps if monotheistic chaplains embraced such a spirit, they might be guided towards a fuller religious understanding of the holy web of interdependency we are part of by virtue of being Gaia's children. Monotheists (including chaplains) could learn something about that.

These "modern day shamans" are just as professional and educated as anyone else. Pagans are lawyers, teachers, nurses, IT personnel, web designers, office managers, and everything else just like everyone else. Those called to the vocation of Pagan priesthood often undergo years of ministry education and pastoral training. Many are committed to interfaith work. Pagans currently sit on the Board of Trustees of the Council for a Parliament of the World's Religions. We understand that it's not all about ritual and we can, and often do, play nice with others.

*earperk* Did someone say Yeats? :)

Actually, in many ways, Mary Cunningham, he *is* one of the sources of modern Paganism, with or without your alchemical references. :)

There's a lot more. People don't recognize it, no. Heck, you seem to not recognize *me.*

"Surely among a rich man's flowering lawns
Amid the rustle of planted hills
Life overflows without ambitious pains;
And rains down life until the basin spills,
And mounts more high the more it rains
As though to choose whatever shape it wills
And never stoop to a mechanical
Or servile shape, at others' beck and call.

"Mere dreams, mere dreams! Yet Homer had not sung
Had he not found it certain beyond dreams
That out of life's own self-delight had sprung
The abounding glittering jet; though now it seems
As if some marvellous empty sea-shell flung
Out of the obscure dark of the rich streams,
And not a fountain, were the symbol which
Shadows the inherited glory of the rich.

"Some violent, bitter man, some powerful man
Called architect and artist in, that they,
Bitter and violent men, might rear in stone
The sweetness that all longed for night and day..."

--WB Yeats: Ancestral Houses (Meditations in Time of Civil War)

There's more to read, there, but I thought i'd keep the quotation brief.

Don't you know me? :)

Paganplace,

Well, I understand Celtic lore, love of place, sacredness of a *specific* landscape, bush, boulder, the layered-ness of time (ever read Yeats' "The Curse of Cromwell"?), all of that--I grew up with it--plus the wonderful mixing of Mother Ireland, dark Rosaleen, the Auld Woman of Ireland, the ancient Celtic Goddess, the Holy Mother: the Blessed Virgin Mary--the Celts loved their land as they would their mother as they did their crazy blend of Catholicism and Celtic lore (ever read St Patrick's Breastplate, Mangan's "Dark Rosaleen" or Plunkett's "I see his blood upon the rose" or Yeats' "The Rosetree"?), a faith to which they held fast in the face of famine, persecution and discrimination, all hard, much harder than you or me or your or my mother would ever experience.

But what is espoused by modern pagans I have a hard time recognizing, capitalized or not. And that is the truth.

By the way, ...if it was in the land before, what makes you think it's not there, now?

People forget, but.
Nothing's forgotten. :)

"I think what bothers me most about today’s self-styled pagans is that they have absorbed all the ritual *whilst completely cut off from the land that (should be) the source of their worship.*"

Speak for yourself.

Besides, if Catholicism can have (St) Brigid's flame in every church in Boston, is that something they have no right to do? :)

Starhawk actually meets with a lot of criticism within the Pagan community for doing rituals on 'other people's turf,' so to speak, but she's not Irish, anyway, AFAIK.

Now, as Irish, myself, it supposedly takes a few generations to renew contacts with the land after a move, ...that means my home ground is over here in America, and the land I grew up in is a part of me in ways you likely couldn't imagine.

Frankly, though, I find it a rather arcane and picky way for you, who can't even seem to bring yourself to capitalize the name of the religion like everyone else's, to try and use to 'invalidate' our beliefs.

"How can modern paganism replicate that? Impossible. Just impossible."

Unfortunately, it seems someone took some pains to break as much of that continuity as possible.

It's frankly, crazy to turn around and then say that means we have no right to the pieces.

It was mentioned at the rally yesterday that there are several Pagan "Faith Group Leaders" in the military that are authorized to conduct worship services - or rituals in the case of Pagans. However, they are full-time soldiers, and do these duties in addition to their own. Chaplains have the ability to cut through the military hierarchies a lot better than a Faith Group Leader can. About 1,000 people claim "Pagan" or some subset as their religion in the Air Force alone. Many more are in the Army, Navy, and Marines. These valiant men and women deserve to have a Chaplain as much as Christians, Jews, and Moslems do. After all, they're putting THEIR lives on the line for our freedoms.

Prof Stevens-Arroyo: I was somewhat disappointed in the your comment above , although, surprisingly, you adhered to the rather anodyne question. But as someone who has written extensively on earth religions I would have hoped for something more.

OK, growing up Irish and Catholic in the West of Ireland means I absorbed a great deal of ancient Celtic lore with my Catholicism and thought my religion was exactly as it should be. Well, of course, it * was*!, it was perfect—for a magical place in the West of Ireland. But such a creed didn’t endure in a city, certainly not a city in Protestant atheist England (London was less multicultural then.) In that move only the Catholicism would survive.

Still when I went back to Ireland I would feel the mystical lure of the landscape again, almost as if I had never left. Almost, but not quite.

I think what bothers me most about today’s self-styled pagans is that they have absorbed all the ritual *whilst completely cut off from the land that (should be) the source of their worship.* Starhawk flew to Ireland to take place in a ceremony of (St?) Brigit. Well, that is just crazy. How could she possible know the Irish landscape around Kildare? The ancient Celtic religion was a relationship of a human being with a *specific* bit of landscape. If you didn’t know the land, you couldn’t know the religion, you just couldn’t take part.

The Celt knew his landscape intimately. He was part of the landscape, intertwined with it in a fashion that modern man can only weakly approximate. I’ll give you an example: in 1832 the English commissioned a hearing on the poor of the realm and the Poor Law, the greatest number of poor mostly being in Ireland we can get a glimpse of Irish society before the catastrophe of the Famine, which solved the problem of the Irish poor (for the English anyway) as the Irish poor mostly died. Anyway, we have a testimony from a landlord in the West of Ireland giving examples of how primitive his tenants were. He declared than the agricultural labourers on his estate refused to uproot a specific bush they considered sacred. Now to the landlord one bush was the same as another. He couldn’t tell the difference. But his Celtic tenants have lived on that self-same land for thousands of years. They knew it as closely as a mother knows her infant: every bush, every pond, every boulder, every stream.

How can modern paganism replicate that? Impossible. Just impossible.

PS Despite being disappointed in this one, must say I always read your comments & hope to read many more.

For Mr.Stevens-Arroyo,

Pagans have been part of the Parliment of World's Religions for several years, since 1993. Here is an article about the Parliment in 2004. Or rather the Pagan meeting to say farewell to those leaving for Spain for that years Parliment.

http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=usxx&c=festivals&id=8595

I was there, waving to the helocopter as it flew over head.

Mr. Stevens-Arroyo, do you think we run around naked with bones in our noses looking for signs from the sky? I am the Priestess of a large group, I am as busy as any other clergy with his congregation. I have people looking to me as any other clergy is looked to. You look down at us like we are primitive savages or just ignorant.

We have lawyers, doctors, and many other professionals. One lawyer from New York; Phyllis Curott, is an author and named one of the Ten Gutsiest Women of the Year by Jane magazine in 1999 and was a finalist for the Walter Cronkite Faith and Freedom Award in 2000. I name Phyllis Curott because she is public and I have met her.

Selena Fox- is a trained counselor and psychotherapist and a member of the American Psychological Association, American Counseling Association, Association for Transpersonal Psychology, and American Academy of Religion.She is also a High Priestess of Circle Sanctuary, the founder of Lady liberty League and the Pagan Academic Net work. She is also a teacher, a lecturer and an author. And can also do a spin around the drum circle... I was with her there.

We have more Pagan artists and writers then you can shake a stick at...there are Pagan law enforcement officers, First responders, military,CEOs,entrepreneurs...everyone that is in any other religion. We are not fools or idiots. And those people named are not unusual...

After all just think where you would be without the Pagan civilization that your religion was able to build on.

terra

I can't imagine that pagan chaplains -- who are almost by definition multicultural -- would have a tougher time than some of the more exclusivist Christian sects who currently do supply chaplains. After all it must be hard to minister honestly to non-Christians when you are absolutely sure they are headed for damnation. (See some of the recent lawsuits by fundamentalist Christian groups who claim their clergy are denied freedom of speech in the military. See also Mikey Weinstein v USAFA.)
In this climate, pagan chaplains have got to be an improvement on the status quo.

My impression of chaplains is that they have a book of rituals for all of the faiths that are recognized by the military and must be willing to conduct one for anyone of any faith. As a pagan with a background including some psych classes and 20 years of counseling people as an attorney, I can say that there are a lot of us out there who would make excellent chaplains - I would have more respect for a christian or muslim religious rite than any christian, jew or muslim has ever had for mine. All of their religions say they must kill me because of my faith - mine does not ask me to kill anyone. My counseling does not require shells, entrails or anything else either and I consider that statement to be rude and offensive.

Anyone taking a position as a chaplain in the military needs to have a very open mind about other's beliefs - they do not have to believe in them, just not take a judgemental position - which tends to mean less fundamentalists and more pagans.

It isn't surprising given Mr. Stevens-Arroyo's past bigotry against atheists that he wouldn't be too keen on Pagan chaplains.

This remark is especially telling:
"I’m not sure they would see their counseling role as one independent of worship rituals."

Ask some atheists in the military how Christian chaplains act towards atheists:
http://www.maaf.info/rptchap.html

Chaplains aren't supposed to evangelize, but atheists are "fair game":

"We will not proselytize, but we reserve the right to evangelize the unchurched" -- Brig. Gen. Cecil R. Richardson, Air Force's deputy chief of chaplains.

Christian chaplains think they have a RIGHT to preach to atheists in the military.

**Celebration of rituals is an obligatory task, but not one that consumes most working hours.**

Same goes for Pagans. Every Pagan I know, (even clergy, since ours isn't paid) has a full-time job that consumes most working hours.

**Today there is much counseling going on about family woes, girl-friend problems, substance abuse and the like. Paper-work for getting families united, getting children into schools, filing for benefits, etc. also takes big bites out of the daily schedule.**

Gee, that's what one of my Pagan friends does all day - she's a social worker. Another is a psychiatrist.

**While I would bet that earth religion chaplains could be every bit as versed in the nuances of clinical psychology as any other chaplain, I’m not sure they would see their counseling role as one independent of worship rituals.**

Ritual is a small but inmportant part of Paganism, just as prayer and church services are for Christians. Just as a Christian does not spend all day on his knees in supplication, a Pagan does not spend all day doing whatever the hell it is you seem to think we do.

**Supposing that counseling would be conducted with rituals of reading shells, animal entrails and the like, I am unsure of respect from military authorities.**

LMFAO! I can promise you that the only shells I read are camper shells with bumper stickers on them, and the only time you will find animal entrails in my house is when one of my cats brings home half-eaten prey and gifts me with it. And when that happens, I say "Thank you" to the cat and give the remains a decent burial. No using them to raise the dead, no potions made from the parts. And we have just as much respect for proper authority as the next person, especially in a military setting where lack thereof could be fatal.

**The real test for chaplains of earth religions would probably come in the exercise of interfaith solidarity that is often practiced among chaplains. In praying for peace, for protection in battle and the like, it is not uncommon for the triad of Protestant, Catholic and Jew to join hands in directing prayers to heaven. Muslim chaplains usually prove equally cooperative partners.**

And if you had ever actually asked a Pagan to join you in a prayer for peace or for protection of soldiers, you would have found him or her more than willing.

**At times, they even substitute for each other in responding to a soldier’s crisis. I suspect that a warlock or santero chaplain would provide some uneasy moments for officialdom looking for religious cooperation among chaplains.**

Your suspicion would prove unfounded. You will actaually find Pagans involved in many interfaith activities, some under the ausoices of government or commnity organizations, some grassroots.

"Having one chaplain who could cater to more than one or two is unlikely, especially in terms of leading celebrations."

Well, the fact is that having a few Pagan chaplains in the armed forces wouldn't cover everyone directly, diversity of practices or not, (Personally, I think members of diverse traditions can clearly get together and circle up just fine, anyway: I spent my Midsummer with some Asatru folks, and it was very nice. I've certainly helped quite a number of non-Pagan folk out over the years, often without them knowing I'm non-Christian, if that'd confuse the issue.)

But the ceremonies and all, well, certainly they should be available somewhere, and Pagans should have a voice in the military they serve in, and have the same proportional chance of finding a chaplain of their own sort of tradition as anyone else, rather than be excluded... the reality of the situation is that there's often some trouble being able to celebrate because the military often misunderstands Pagans in general, and doesn't see us as legitimate.

(I think one was on here claiming Wiccans 'run around naked cutting themselves and others with knives,' when the subject came up, for instance.

Amusing as the idea of someone freaking out about *soldiers* having a knife was, it shows a pretty deep and defamatory level of ignorance. That's one thing this issue has a lot to do with, more than any real expectation that every post with a few Pagans in it would have its own priestess or something: not that having *someone* in all of Iraq would be so unreasonable. )

This is really about Pagan soldiers' dignity and equality, ...supporting the troops, if you will, when a Commander in chief has claimed that theirs is not 'a real religion.'

It's about them having the same rights they're supposed to be defending.

You make a couple of good points, and I have to say that your article is intelligent and thought out - not always the case on here.

However, I don't agree with you on most of it.

Paganism is a HUGE umbrella term for a variety of faiths that have far less in common than most Christian sects do to each other. The deities, values and ritual all differ greatly between Asatru, Druidry, Wicca, Celtic-styled paths, shamanic traditions and others (and those are just the more popular types in the US). Having one chaplain who could cater to more than one or two is unlikely, especially in terms of leading celebrations.

What is largely the same is a basic reverence for nature and relatively liberal set of values that differ from most monotheisms. There are still strong ethics (when you see nature as sacred, it doesn't make sense to harm the people in it/of it) but usually a different approach.

And I see your concern about the quality of counselling, but surely incapable people would be prevented from taking the post just the same as enthusiastic-but-untrained Christians would be. Pagans are often *very* informed about human nature, despite the public having a whacky image of them. The list of daily problems you gave is very much what local leaders who I know well deal with every day.

Paganism in its many forms is a religion that's almost grown into the mainstream now, and it deserves representation in the armed forces as much as any other set of faiths. I'll echo Paganplace's comment here that you don't seem to know what the average pagan is or does - 'warlocks' and Santeria aren't representative at all, and neither are entrails or sacrifices. Multi-faith activities will be no problem for any pagan chaplain who deserves the post, and neither will empathy, understanding or sincerity in harsh situations.

You're almost right to say the problem is the word "Pagan", but it's because it's like saying "Monotheist" - we'd need ten Chaplains just to cover the main paths.

" have more of a problem with the use of the word "pagan" on this page than I have with pagan chaplains in the military."

Oh, really. Do elucidate.

" There is an obvious gain in respect for "paganism" to receive the official sanction that employment in the chaplains’ ranks will provide."

You can say Paganism, if you can find that much courtesy in in your fingers.

It's a real name. Honest.

"However, are these modern day shamans up to the professionalism required of today’s chaplains?"

I'd have to question if Pagan chaplains would be hired as 'shamans.' They'd be hired as clergy, not as spirit- operators.

Though it'd make for an interesting version of MASH, I suppose. :)

"The black-and-white celluloid image of the priest chaplain hearing the last confession of a fallen GI is an overly dramatic rendering of what army chaplains do. Celebration of rituals is an obligatory task, but not one that consumes most working hours."

This is why many objections about Pagans not being able to serve in this capacity as a minority (compared to the far smaller minorities with several chaplains) ...don't work. :)

" Today there is much counseling going on about family woes, girl-friend problems, substance abuse and the like. Paper-work for getting families united, getting children into schools, filing for benefits, etc. also takes big bites out of the daily schedule."

*Isn't* that the daily schedule? Heck, sounds like a typical day for a number of civilian Pagan clergy I know. Heck, sounds like me a few years ago. :)

"While I would bet that earth religion chaplains could be every bit as versed in the nuances of clinical psychology as any other chaplain, I’m not sure they would see their counseling role as one independent of worship rituals."

Where do you get this idea? It's not like Pagans walk around *all day* waving branches around or something. :)

" Supposing that counseling would be conducted with rituals of reading shells, animal entrails and the like, I am unsure of respect from military authorities."

You might want to reconsider your supposition, here. Especially about the animal entrails: modern Pagans don't go in for sacrifice and all that.

"The real test for chaplains of earth religions would probably come in the exercise of interfaith solidarity that is often practiced among chaplains. In praying for peace, for protection in battle and the like, it is not uncommon for the triad of Protestant, Catholic and Jew to join hands in directing prayers to heaven. Muslim chaplains usually prove equally cooperative partners. At times, they even substitute for each other in responding to a soldier’s crisis."

You'll find it's not the Pagans who have the trouble playing well with others.

"I suspect that a warlock or santero chaplain would provide some uneasy moments for officialdom looking for religious cooperation among chaplains."

Well, I wouldn't worry about that, since there's basically no such thing as a 'Warlock' and Santeria is a different religion entirely.

"When all is said and done, however, appointing "pagans" as chaplains is a political decision. While Bush-Cheney run the show, it don’t anticipate changes."

You know, I don't know who these "pagans" of yours are, but it's possible your difficulty lies in the fact you seem to have *no clue* who Pagans are.

"While I would bet that earth religion chaplains could be every bit as versed in the nuances of clinical psychology as any other chaplain, I’m not sure they would see their counseling role as one independent of worship rituals."

I'm a bit confused. Why would this be any different for Pagans versus chaplains of other faiths?

"I suspect that a warlock or santero chaplain would provide some uneasy moments for officialdom looking for religious cooperation among chaplains."

Are you saying that the Pagan chaplain would be at fault if the other chaplains don't play nice? If Christian, Muslim, and Jewish chaplains, who come from faith groups which have historically had a great deal of difficulty getting along, can work together and substitute for each other, then why wouldn't they be able to get along with Pagan chaplains? Again, I am confused.